Trip Report – Salmon R., NY, part 1 | Fly Fishing

Question:

The point is that when I type a string of ASCII characters, I expected (up until now) that my recipients would see that string of ASCII characters (font differences notwithstanding), and not some browser developer’s interpretation of it. Is it even possible to type accurately the character string "colon, hyphen, closing parenthesis" without the newfangled browser defaults converting it to a grinning jack-o-lantern?

Errr, you’re missing the big picture. The display of emoticons as graphics is in *your* software. Us text-only types still see them as the text they are (well, to be more accurate for the literal minded, as the standard text representation of the bit patterns they are). You don’t send big yellow smileys, you only see them. If you turn off the setting Willi mentioned, you will then see the same reality we all do. –Stan

Response:

Errr, you’re missing the big picture. The display of emoticons as graphics is in *your* software. Us text-only types still see them as the text they are (well, to be more accurate for the literal minded, as the standard text representation of the bit patterns they are). You don’t send big yellow smileys, you only see them. If you turn off the setting Willi mentioned, you will then see the same reality we all do.

Stupid me! Of course! Why didn’t I see that the first time?! Thanks for clearing that up, Stan! — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

<SNIP Errr, you’re missing the big picture. The display of emoticons as graphics is in *your* software. Us text-only types still see them as the text they are (well, to be more accurate for the literal minded, as the standard text representation of the bit patterns they are). You don’t send big yellow smileys, you only see them. If you turn off the setting Willi mentioned, you will then see the same reality we all do. –Stan

"A big yellow smiley, came and confused my old man". TL MC

Response:

When we had our discussion about "whining", I did a search and found a couple groups that also used "whining" in the same way you do. (I disagree with them too!)

Makes the score 3 to 1. This is turning out to be a good day after all What was interesting to me is that they had the same attitude toward the use of emoticons as they did to whining.

Will you be handing down *your* unique pronouncement on that issue in the near future, or do we have to use our imagination? /daytripper (This is getting…a bit weird….)

Response:

[artwork snipped] Looks like Betty Boop after a shark attack…

Response:

[artwork snipped] Looks like Betty Boop after a shark attack…

Naw, she was probably just….changed… ) …hmm…I wonder what rw’s program will do with this

Response:

Gee what happen went from a nice trip report to slamming smilies go figure only on ROFF Handyman Mike Standing in a river waving a stick

Response:

After recently upgrading my browser I noticed something right away. Smileys no longer appear as strings of ASCII symbols. They appear as bright yellow images of maniacally smiling or frowning smiley creatures. They STAND OUT! This is a dramatic change. I’ve always thought of smileys as cover-your-ass devices — protection from literal-minded pedants with no sense of humor, but otherwise harmless cliches that all reasonable people ignored. Now they’re in my face. Two or three of the new, improved smileys distract from the actual content of the post.

Tough nuggies, just ‘cuz you’ve gone over to the Dark Mozilla Side I ain’t throwing away my winky dudes! /daytripper (Fix it or get over it! )

Response:

You can change them back to ASCII ynder preferences/mail and newsgroups/message display.

Sure, but them I’ll have to get everyone else to change them, too. The point is that when I type a string of ASCII characters, I expected (up until now) that my recipients would see that string of ASCII characters (font differences notwithstanding), and not some browser developer’s interpretation of it. Is it even possible to type accurately the character string "colon, hyphen, closing parenthesis" without the newfangled browser defaults converting it to a grinning jack-o-lantern? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Tough nuggies, just ‘cuz you’ve gone over to the Dark Mozilla Side I ain’t throwing away my winky dudes! /daytripper (Fix it or get over it! )

When we had our discussion about "whining", I did a search and found a couple groups that also used "whining" in the same way you do. (I disagree with them too!) What was interesting to me is that they had the same attitude toward the use of emoticons as they did to whining. Willi

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After recently upgrading my browser I noticed something right away. Smileys no longer appear as strings of ASCII symbols. They appear as bright yellow images of maniacally smiling or frowning smiley creatures. They STAND OUT! This is a dramatic change. I’ve always thought of smileys as cover-your-ass devices — protection from literal-minded pedants with no sense of humor, but otherwise harmless cliches that all reasonable people ignored. Now they’re in my face. Two or three of the new, improved smileys distract from the actual content of the post. Tough nuggies, just ‘cuz you’ve gone over to the Dark Mozilla Side I ain’t throwing away my winky dudes! /daytripper (Fix it or get over it! )

Hmm…I wonder what this’ll do to it… . :::::::…. `:: .::::::::::::::::::..::::::::::::::. .: .:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: `:::::::::::::::“::::::::::: `:::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::’zc$$$b`:’,cc,`:::’ :”“,c=`:::::::::::’ `"""???$PFFF"" """""""" $$$$$P `$.:::::::::::::::::: `"".$$$$$c z$$$$$$" .::::::::::::::::..:3$$$$P L `?$$$" ::::::::::::::::::::.?::: . $ .,,,,ccc$L ? "" :::::::::::::::::::::::::::.c% :$$ ?=?P$$$% :::::::::::::::::::::::::::: `::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: : :::::::::::::::::““,,,,zcc`””` :::::::::::’zc,,,,,cd$$ `???"""" J$$$$$$" $$$$$$F $$$$$P ?$$$$$ d$$$$F <$$$$F $$$P" $$$P J$$P <$$$’ .$$P $$$$ .$$$ `$$$L z$$$F / "$$$ $$$$%/ ( ;. "?. ;"?"" “ `. .- ` `–’ ;-}…oops…<G…. R

Response:

After recently upgrading my browser I noticed something right away. Smileys no longer appear as strings of ASCII symbols. They appear as bright yellow images of maniacally smiling or frowning smiley creatures. They STAND OUT! This is a dramatic change. I’ve always thought of smileys as cover-your-ass devices — protection from literal-minded pedants with no sense of humor, but otherwise harmless cliches that all reasonable people ignored. Now they’re in my face. Two or three of the new, improved smileys distract from the actual content of the post. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After recently upgrading my browser I noticed something right away. Smileys no longer appear as strings of ASCII symbols. They appear as bright yellow images of maniacally smiling or frowning smiley creatures. They STAND OUT! This is a dramatic change. I’ve always thought of smileys as cover-your-ass devices — protection from literal-minded pedants with no sense of humor, but otherwise harmless cliches that all reasonable people ignored. Now they’re in my face. Two or three of the new, improved smileys distract from the actual content of the post.

You can change them back to ASCII ynder preferences/mail and newsgroups/message display. Willi

Response:

Had a *real* need to fish today. So, I decided to swing up the valley and hit the river just below the Upper Souris refuge dam. Had heard some of the small panfish were hitting. Sounded like just what the doctor ordered. Now is where the folly starts — I have an 8′ 4 wt. in the car for when the urge to sneak off hits. Listen to the weather report, and they say wind gusting to 30 mph. Oh well, I figure, I can perhaps set up on a sheltered section, out of the wind, and still be able to cast in a halfways alright manner. Get out of the car and string up. Wind is channeling quite efficiently down the river. Walk to the bank anyhow, and proceed to flail away… Ugh. Head is not screwed on straight. Attempt to muscle the 4 wt. Leader system is also too long, and can’t even turn the weighted #10 scud over with a roll cast. Situation heading downhill rapidly. Pick up and head to the small fishing pier to attempt to jig the scud from on high. This works, after a fashion, unless one is exposed to the wind or a gust comes along and lifts the whole assembly out of the water, to hover several feet above it. Decide to proceed upstream to a point area where I think I can cast downwind. Oh yeah, the forward cast is downwind, but backcasts are problematic. Gusts collapse the loop going back. Wind dies a bit, and I proceed to muscle the thing again. Not paying a lot of attention to my backcast either. Can feel the line almost straightening behind me, and give it a quick snap forward, just as a gust kicks up. Snap is the operative phrase, as I hear the line crack behind me. Line goes forward and falls nicely on the water, but I figure the scud went flying when I cracked the whip. Strip in, and find that not only is the scud gone, but the leader, braided loop, and about 6-8" of my fly line as well. Reel up in disgust with myself. As I’m packing the rod back up, hear something across the bank from me, and see a nice whitetail buck looking at me. He gives a snort and bounds off into the thick brush. Sit down on the bank and look around. See a female Bittern fishing down the far bank. She has no luck either, and flies off. Look upstream and see a Pellican floating my way. Watch it sail on by. None of the preceeding folly seems to matter all that much. Would be quite content to sit there for awhile, just taking it all in. See a small fish take something off the top with a splashing rise. Think it was a perch, but it really doesn’t matter. Life is good when one is on the water. Unfortunately, it was time for me to head back home. Fixed the business end of my fly line when I got home, and am ready to go again. Forecast says much less wind tomorrow, so perhaps I will head back in the afternoon for awhile. Lots of grasshoppers about. If the wind will allow me to unleash the 4 wt. again, I might try some dry fly fishing with a suitable hopper tie. Will throw the 7 wt. in the car in case the breeze is too stiff. And if it’s blowing a gale again, I might just sit on the bank and watch the world go by. Todd

Response:

Question:

flyfish writes: Passing this along to Muddie, we’ll probably do just an overnighter to whet our whistles etc. maybe even fish Flyfish

If you plan on staying at Lakewood, you’ll have to make reservations with Sue. Info is on the clave web site. There are ways to walk in, however, and I’m sure you are aware of them. <g Hope to see you there, as well as Mudfish…… Dave

Response:

flyfish writes: Passing this along to Muddie, we’ll probably do just an overnighter to whet our whistles etc. maybe even fish Flyfish If you plan on staying at Lakewood, you’ll have to make reservations with Sue. Info is on the clave web site. There are ways to walk in, however, and I’m sure you are aware of them. <g Hope to see you there, as well as Mudfish……

Knowing Ed and Dave, they’ll probably sleep in the truck…if they haven’t gotten it stuck somewhere. Dave B: if you come in from Wilson’s, use the NEW road. There’s a bridge missing on the Old Middledam Road… /daytripper (whose Pathfinder nearly "found" Sturtevant Stream one night)

Response:

Having never been myself I’ll have to let Mud navigate. Lemme see, if we leave early the 10th we should be there for the camp breaking exercises. Flyfish

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – flyfish writes: Passing this along to Muddie, we’ll probably do just an overnighter to whet our whistles etc. maybe even fish Flyfish If you plan on staying at Lakewood, you’ll have to make reservations with Sue. Info is on the clave web site. There are ways to walk in, however, and I’m sure you are aware of them. <g Hope to see you there, as well as Mudfish…… Knowing Ed and Dave, they’ll probably sleep in the truck…if they haven’t gotten it stuck somewhere. Dave B: if you come in from Wilson’s, use the NEW road. There’s a bridge missing on the Old Middledam Road… /daytripper (whose Pathfinder nearly "found" Sturtevant Stream one night)

Response:

Is there one? Where might it be? Mudfish and I may attend after all being as it’s all of an hour and a bit drive from my place Flyfish — dave’s homepage madness http://www.ctel.net/~brooktrout flyfishing in Maine and more http://members.xoom.com/lokiskinder JG13 A proud Red Baron 2 squadron

Response:

Passing this along to Muddie, we’ll probably do just an overnighter to whet our whistles etc. maybe even fish Flyfish

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Go to Paul Goodwin’s site: http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/maineclave2000.html Hope to see you and Mudfish there. Dave Dave LaCourse

Response:

flyfish writes: Is there one? Where might it be? Mudfish and I may attend after all being as it’s all of an hour and a bit drive from my place Flyfish

Go to Paul Goodwin’s site: http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/maineclave2000.html Hope to see you and Mudfish there. Dave Dave LaCourse

Response:

The thread I started a month or so back to announce the web page went off topic and down hill fast. You can find the site at: http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/maineclave2000.html Day_tripper supplied most of the photos for the flies. The one pattern I need a good photo of is a strawman. If anyone has one please email it to me. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there one? Where might it be? Mudfish and I may attend after all being as it’s all of an hour and a bit drive from my place Flyfish — dave’s homepage madness http://www.ctel.net/~brooktrout flyfishing in Maine and more http://members.xoom.com/lokiskinder JG13 A proud Red Baron 2 squadron

Response:

Question:

…so walt, that explains why you were so easily hooked, eh??

doncha be callin’ me a fish, jeff. genetically-impaired….no problemo, but fish, no way. well, walt, some of us need a bit of a challenge ya know…those tight loops and free casts you throw are just way too easy…and, anybody can tie a knot with their hands (btw, that was a surgeon’s loop you witnessed me create in the air) …i need me some trees, rocks, and fishin buddies to carom my flies off… seems only sportin. how to explain it??? karma, man, pure karma… jeff (applying the billiards zen theory to ff)

as rene (georgie’s honey-bun from rap) once said here at roff… "oh, it’s a zen thingy". on a more serious note….i hope you guy’s aren’t getting pounded with rain again. waldo

Response:

hate to hear you’ve lost the knack, so…out of pure, gawldang southern empathy, anytime you can make yer way to north carolina i’d be honored to help you re-instill the fine art of tree catchin…i excel in the skill… i can personally vouch for jeff’s innate ability to catch anything but the occasional genetically-impaired fish….

…so walt, that explains why you were so easily hooked, eh?? he actually caught a fish after yanking the fly out of a tree….put the darndest "wind" knot in the line i’ve ever seen. the fly landed on the water…hookset, and wallah… biggest fish of the day. i’m not gonna even try and explain it…i wouldn’t even know how.

well, walt, some of us need a bit of a challenge ya know…those tight loops and free casts you throw are just way too easy…and, anybody can tie a knot with their hands (btw, that was a surgeon’s loop you witnessed me create in the air) …i need me some trees, rocks, and fishin buddies to carom my flies off… seems only sportin. how to explain it??? karma, man, pure karma… jeff (applying the billiards zen theory to ff) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – waldo — Ezflyfish.com http://www.ezflyfish.com BRBG http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112 Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

Response:

hate to hear you’ve lost the knack, so…out of pure, gawldang southern empathy, anytime you can make yer way to north carolina i’d be honored to help you re-instill the fine art of tree catchin…i excel in the skill… jeff (holder of the state record for leaf-fish)

i can personally vouch for jeff’s innate ability to catch anything but the occasional genetically-impaired fish….hell, he even hooked my arm and i thought i was safe behind that boulder. damndest thing…he actually caught a fish after yanking the fly out of a tree….put the darndest "wind" knot in the line i’ve ever seen. the fly landed on the water…hookset, and wallah… biggest fish of the day. i’m not gonna even try and explain it…i wouldn’t even know how. waldo — Ezflyfish.com http://www.ezflyfish.com BRBG http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112 Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

Response:

,,,<snipped some stuff… I was a really expert tree catcher in those days -lost the knack a bit since. Thanks again Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

hate to hear you’ve lost the knack, so…out of pure, gawldang southern empathy, anytime you can make yer way to north carolina i’d be honored to help you re-instill the fine art of tree catchin…i excel in the skill… jeff (holder of the state record for leaf-fish)

Response:

Tony, I tied a few of Andre Puyans Loop Wing’s and they seemed to hold up just fine. I didn’t notice any improvement in catching fish Ernie Harrison See Ernie’s Fly-Fishing Stuff: http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2.

<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I remember reading an article by John Veniard on the Andre Puyans Loop Wing Dun in ‘Trout & Salmon’ back in the early 70s. The piece was reproduced in ‘Modern Fly-Tying Techniques’, by John Veniard and Donald Downs. At the time, I never had the confidence that those loop wings would hold up for any distance with me: I was a really expert tree catcher in those days -lost the knack a bit since. Tony Deacon

Response:

Not knockin’ your knowledge of the G&H Sedge Tony, but truth be known, it was ACTUALLY a threesome that developed this fly. The pattern was thought up as a collaboration by three tyers and fishermen, one who didn’t want any credit for his part in developing the fly, a guy named Andre Puyans…

(interesting history snipped) I’m indebted to you Larry. I didn’t know that Andre Puyans had a hand in the G&H. Credit where it’s due! I have at least a nodding acquaintance with John Goddard. He was very good about providing me with articles, at short notice sometimes, when I edited the quarterly magazine of the Fly Dressers’ Guild a few years back. He has probably forgotten more about angling than most of us will every know. Very dry sense of humour. Now, if only Andy can get full credit for his Loop Wing Dun and his line of AP Nymphs, among other flies he’s developed over the years…

I remember reading an article by John Veniard on the Andre Puyans Loop Wing Dun in ‘Trout & Salmon’ back in the early 70s. The piece was reproduced in ‘Modern Fly-Tying Techniques’, by John Veniard and Donald Downs. At the time, I never had the confidence that those loop wings would hold up for any distance with me: I was a really expert tree catcher in those days -lost the knack a bit since. Thanks again Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

it thick, the thicker the better

CarefulDave.I am not one of them, but you should see how one of the members of The Roadkill Roundtable packs deer hair…If I had not watched Bruce pack it I could have sworn it was balsa wood. Big Dale

Response:

Darin Minor writes:

<<I’ve been looking for the pattern for this fly for some time. Could somebody please post it for me? Thanks in advance, Hook: Dry fly Thread: Gray or black Body: Natural deer hair, spun and trimmed into the whap of a wing adult caddisfly Antennae: Two stems of a brown hack with the barbs stripped. Hackle: Brown. The original recipe called for a small piece of bright green fur (or dubbing) spun in at the back as a first step and then pulled forward and tied off as a final step. However, I have never seen one tied with this option. If you hate to spin deer hair, this ain’t the pattern for you. Pack it thick, the thicker the better. Dave LaCourse

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Darin Minor writes: <<I’ve been looking for the pattern for this fly for some time. Could somebody please post it for me? Thanks in advance, Hook: Dry fly Thread: Gray or black Body: Natural deer hair, spun and trimmed into the whap of a wing adult caddisfly Antennae: Two stems of a brown hack with the barbs stripped. Hackle: Brown. The original recipe called for a small piece of bright green fur (or dubbing) spun in at the back as a first step and then pulled forward and tied off as a final step. However, I have never seen one tied with this option. If you hate to spin deer hair, this ain’t the pattern for you. Pack it thick, the thicker the better. Dave LaCourse

Thanks for posting the pattern Dave. Darin

Response:

Tony Deacon writes:

(snip for brevity) <<May I make the plea that Cliff Henry is remembered and given the credit he is due by using the original name: the ‘G&H Sedge’? Thank you for the history lesson, Tony. I am a great afcionado of the Goddard Caddis. I fish it almost exclusively on some rivers. I tie is down to a size 18, but 16s and 14s are used most. Because of its bouyancy, it is a great fly to skitter. It will be tough to call it the G&H Sedge, but I will give it a try. <g And, of course, when folks question me I will have to give *them* a history lesson. Dave LaCourse

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The pattern popularly known as the ‘Goddard Caddis’ was originally called the ‘G&H Sedge’ and was a collaboration between John Goddard and the late Cliff Henry. I share the belief with many that the G&H is one of the truly great dry fly designs of all time. Because it is positively buoyant, even without proofing, one can fish it on a pitch black night with absolute confidence that it is still on the surface. It has caught me literally hundreds of brown and rainbow trout and many dozens of sea trout, fished as a ‘wake’ fly on the blackest of nights. May I make the plea that Cliff Henry is remembered and given the credit he is due by using the original name: the ‘G&H Sedge’? Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

I’ve been looking for the pattern for this fly for some time. Could somebody please post it for me? Thanks in advance, Darin

Response:

Not knockin’ your knowledge of the G&H Sedge Tony, but truth be known, it was ACTUALLY a threesome that developed this fly. The pattern was thought up as a collaboration by three tyers and fishermen, one who didn’t want any credit for his part in developing the fly, a guy named Andre Puyans. Andy was sitting with John and Cliff one of the nights they were developing this fly and actually came up with the idea of the spun and clipped hair. Story is by the time they had the "final product" tied, they were all in quite a drunken stupor and were quite pleased with their efforts, but didn’t really know what they came up with until the next morning when they were sober!! One of the features of the patten that has seemed to vanish into the dust is the spun fur dubbing strip of green hare (or originally seal) that was left hanging from the rear of the hook until the fly was completed, then pulled forward under the belly before tying in the antennae and hackling the fly. Another tip I shared with someone earlier today was to make the fly have a more "mottled" appearance like sedges naturally do, blend caribou and antelope along with deer to get the "blotchy" colors that are seen in a sedge’s wings. The antennae are optional, but sure look nice on the finished fly….stripped coachman brown hackle quills are my favorite, but moose looks nice too. Tie in the hackle quills just forward of the finished and trimmed body by the butts, leaving the tips on the hackles, then trim them after hackling the fly. Andy ties this patten at demos he does at some shows and tells the story, giving FULL CREDIT to both John Goddard and Cliff Henry when he does…and he says "It’s known now as the Goddard Caddis, but the TRUE name of the fly is the G&H Sedge" Larry #:)# Now, if only Andy can get full credit for his Loop Wing Dun and his line of AP Nymphs, among other flies he’s developed over the years…

Response:

The pattern popularly known as the ‘Goddard Caddis’ was originally called the ‘G&H Sedge’ and was a collaboration between John Goddard and the late Cliff Henry. I share the belief with many that the G&H is one of the truly great dry fly designs of all time. Because it is positively buoyant, even without proofing, one can fish it on a pitch black night with absolute confidence that it is still on the surface. It has caught me literally hundreds of brown and rainbow trout and many dozens of sea trout, fished as a ‘wake’ fly on the blackest of nights. May I make the plea that Cliff Henry is remembered and given the credit he is due by using the original name: the ‘G&H Sedge’? Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Question:

Hello Ken, I kinda expected that I would get some mail from an asshole like you. I appreciate the fact that you stepped forward to accept the blame that was anticipated from your weak end of the gene pool. Too bad you didn’t want to share that with everyone else who might know you. Well, I have taken care of that for you by posting your email to me. Now that I have expressed my displeasure with an ignorant person like you it should be known that I have had no similar difficulties with fly fishing, for what reason I do not know and that is why I posted here. I have fly fished most of the well kinown places in the state and have never experienced the like of you, Perhaps you are one of the bait casters that inhabit Tippy Dam or some other aluminum hatch place of origin as that. I really thank you for stepping forward to help others stereotype the great sport of fly fishing that I have enjoyed for many , many years Most fly fishermen have been gracious in sharing their resources once they found that I was sincere. They didn’t do much of this sport in Georgia either but I was exposed to it and spent considerable money and time learning how to master it like a native Michigander. ! I was taught to tie flies by Charlie Fogel, a tier of over fifty years who I chanced to meet. Old Charlie only asked that I do what I asked others in my original post. He said he would teach me to tie if I only promised to share this gift with others. I have done this many times over. This is just the same promise I have made to others in asking to hunt with them. Perhaps you are special in that you grew up here. You seem very proud of yourself but I am not in anyway a loser. Actually you seem like that sort of person to me. In fact, I’d be willing to bet that you have never served your country and that you’d likely shit your pants if you ever met someone like me face to face alone in the woods! Next time be a man and put your liberal democratic words where everyone else can experience them instead of hide them in shame and embaresment. Clay I apologize to each of you offended by my response. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – —–Original Message—– Ken Fortenberry Sent: Saturday, September 25, 1999 1:53 PM The first thing I must say is that I am somewhat sad and a little embarrassed to write something like this. … Well, no shit. You’ve been living in Michigan for 14 years and the people that know you best refuse to share their hunting grounds with you so you post an off-topic whine to a flyfishing newsgroup full of complete strangers. What a lame excuse for a loser. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Hello Ken, I kinda expected that I would get some mail from an asshole like yo

Diatribe snipped OK, let me get this straight…. you post a whiny *off topic*, lengthy, "nobody loves me, everybody hates me, I’m gonna go eat worms" type of post to a group of strangers. A valued regular contributor flames you privately via email. You decide to go public with your reply. #1. If you have lived in Michigan for 14 years and haven’t figured out where to hunt by now, I wouldn’t consider you as a hunting companion. (as apparently your acquaintances in MI also feel) #2. Ken Fotenberry is no one you want to f**k with, as you will likely find out shortly. #3. Please go back to lurking…life was much more pleasant then. George Adams

Response:

Saturday Night Live is holding a 25 year reunion this Sunday at first time you heard, "Jane you ignorant slut?" This is the first time I have laughed that had since, and I know it’s the first good laugh I have had in three years……I just want to thank

Response:

Ken, I have to admire your convictions, but you are one shitty diplomat. Oh, don’t I know it. I blame it on my education. I was taught by the Benedictines and all the good diplomats are Jesuits. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 3 – Tar Heels 1

forty, the only thing you and the jesuits have in common is a mindset which has its logical conclusion in activities such as the spanish inquisition. wayno the candid

Response:

forty, the only thing you and the jesuits have in common is a mindset which has its logical conclusion in activities such as the spanish inquisition. wayno the candid

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is suprise… surprise and fear…fear and surprise…. Our two weapons are fear and surprise…and ruthless efficiency…. Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise and ruthless efficiency…and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope…. Our *four*… no… *Amongst* our weapons…. Amongst our weaponry…are such elements as fear, surprise…. I’ll come in again. Anyway, was never much fond of the Jesuits, they’re smart enough but mostly quibblers, dissemblers & nit pickers. They make great lawyers. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 3 – Tar Heels 1

Response:

I should also add that I did anticipate this but not from this group of educated and responsible people.

If you anticipated it, then what’s your bitch? This is a fishing newsgroup, not rec.hunting. And it’s hard to take seriously a man who purports to have lived in one place for over a decade and still can’t get permission to hunt somewhere. "Denver, Colorado, may be the best argument for above- ground nuclear testing that I’ve ever seen" -me.

Response:

My first response from this newsgroup to my heartfelt request to each of you in my outdoors world. I will reply to this individual publicly as soon as I finish climbing down from my great room ceiling. I should also add that I did anticipate this but not from this group of educated and responsible people. Sincerely embarrassed by this person, Ranger Clay The first thing I must say is that I am somewhat sad and a little embarrassed to write something like this. …

Well, no shit. You’ve been living in Michigan for 14 years and the people that know you best refuse to share their hunting grounds with you so you post an off-topic whine to a flyfishing newsgroup full of complete strangers. What a lame excuse for a loser. — Ken Fortenberry —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To my fellow sportsmen, The first thing I must say is that I am somewhat sad and a little embarrassed to write something like this. Three years or so ago I considered something like this but did not have the courage to do it then. I don’t know why. Since the time I first considered an approach like this, many things have changed. The person who gave me the greatest gift of my life, the spirit of the hunter, has now passed away and another hunting season is upon me. My father succumbed to cancer last January. He was a man who loved the outdoors and spent every chance he had there. He taught me to hunt and fish and only asked me to pass this heritage on to my children so that it would not be lost. He taught all of his children the skills of survival and how to hunt and fish. He even owned a gun store in Georgia that my brother still manages today. Before I continue, I must tell you something about myself so that perhaps you will know that I am sincere in my request to my fellow outdoorsmen. I am an avid outdoorsman. I grew up in South Georgia during the sixties. My Daddy gave me my first rifle when I was five and my first shotgun when I was eight years old. While this may seem young to some, it was not uncommon during this era. Even before I could read well, I was taught how to handle a weapon safely. That old Browning Automatic Shotgun knocked my glasses and my hat off every time I shot it, my Daddy only gave me one shell at a time, but I didn’t care since I was taught that only one shell was needed, I rarely missed. I loved the outdoors and I would stalk a bird or deer for hours for that one clear, sure shot. He never allowed me to hunt squirrels or rabbits with nothing other than my .22 rifle. While I sometimes disagreed with his methods, this would become very important in my future life as it taught me the skills of an expert marksman. I spent the early years of my life learning about nature and how to hunt and fish. One day I told my Dad that I was ready to be a "man" and what would I have to do to prove this. He said that I had to spend a week in the "Grand Bay Swamp" near where we lived with only a knife and some matches to prove I was ready! Well, I did it at age fourteen. I almost starved (at least in my young mind) but he never said he knew about that! I decided that the out-of-doors was my calling and I made my life’s goal to be a soldier in the Army like my Dad had been. I enlisted when I was 17, just after high school, and went to many Army schools. I was Infantry, Airborne, a long-range recon scout and I even graduated from the coveted sniper school at Fort Benning. I have never fired less than expert on any military weapon system and I have also competed on military pistol and rifle teams during the seventies and eighties. I learned to hunt man, the greatest game of all and became competent at hitting the silhouettes out to over 1000 yards. I taught marksman ship skills to many young soldiers. During my military days, I usually spent nine months out of the year in th e woods doing my duty to my country. I was very fortunate to have never spent a minute in combat; those who have been there understand my relief at never having to kill another human being. While I eventually became disillusioned with the military due to the liberal democratic politics of the eighties and the fear of death or dismemberment in the Middle East, I loved my skills and I still maintain them today. I married a wonderful woman from Michigan in 1985 and moved there to begin my career as a Controls Engineer. I currently am the Senior Plant Engineer at a General Motors Plant in Flint. I program robots and the automation that manufactures the Chevy and GMC trucks that many of you use to carry you to the great outdoors. When I moved to Michigan, I left my hometown where I had hunting privileges all over the county. As a boy and a young man, I knew many of the farmers and landowners that knew I was a true sportsman and would use their land respectably. They always let me hunt their land and I always shared my bounty with them when they wanted it. When I moved to Michigan, I knew virtually no one and I was forced to spend my fall days hunting on state land that was over hunted and full of novice hunters. For years, I have tolerated this. I knew that the city people were lazy and that when the first gun was fired, all of the game would head to the swamps and hard to access locations. I used my field skills to identify these spots and I would spend hours walking to the remote locations where the smart game would go and hide. While I have been moderately successful over the past years with this plan, I now find my time is short and my son is of the age that it is time he learn how to hunt and safely enjoy the world we have been given without the hassle of long walks into the woods on his young, short legs. I am writing this to those of you who have taken the time to read this monologue up to this point and sympathize with my frustration. I know that accessible hunting land does exist in Michigan. My coworkers successfully hunt these lands and when I have hinted (and even come out and asked) of my desires and abilities, they selfishly guard them like they own them and never ask me to experience them with them. I want to hunt and share this experience with my children. This request is without shame or embarrassment. Do not do this because I mentioned my fathers death, but for my son’s future. I am asking that anyone with a sizable hunting property in the lower at (810) 236-1172 and tell me that you are willing to share our resources with my family and me. I am a responsible sportsman with many years of experience and commitment to our natural resources. I have been a member of the Michigan United Conservation Club since the middle eighties. I am a safe hunter and intend for my family to be as well. I would love to share my skills learned as a young man and as a professional soldier with anyone willing to give me a chance. I can still fire a shotgun or rifle with the accuracy many people dream of. When I go to the skeet range, I still keep the shotgun lowered and I face away from the trap to give the "clays" a sporting chance until I hear the trap release, hunters and shooters of many, many years ask me how I do this and I really don’t know. I can’t even explain this to my wife of fourteen years who loves to hunt as much as I do! I can shoot and I can teach others this skill and I would be willing to trade this service for the privilege of hunting with them. I love hunting small and large game with rifle, shotgun and archery. I am willing to share my bounty with the landowner and all I am respectably asking of you is to give me the opportunity to share this with my family so that it will not be forgotten to the future generations. With sincere thanks, Clay Copeland — —

Response:

To my fellow sportsmen, The first thing I must say is that I am somewhat sad and a little embarrassed to write something like this. Three years or so ago I considered something like this but did not have the courage to do it then. I don’t know why. Since the time I first considered an approach like this, many things have changed. The person who gave me the greatest gift of my life, the spirit of the hunter, has now passed away and another hunting season is upon me. My father succumbed to cancer last January. He was a man who loved the outdoors and spent every chance he had there. He taught me to hunt and fish and only asked me to pass this heritage on to my children so that it would not be lost. He taught all of his children the skills of survival and how to hunt and fish. He even owned a gun store in Georgia that my brother still manages today. Before I continue, I must tell you something about myself so that perhaps you will know that I am sincere in my request to my fellow outdoorsmen. I am an avid outdoorsman. I grew up in South Georgia during the sixties. My Daddy gave me my first rifle when I was five and my first shotgun when I was eight years old. While this may seem young to some, it was not uncommon during this era. Even before I could read well, I was taught how to handle a weapon safely. That old Browning Automatic Shotgun knocked my glasses and my hat off every time I shot it, my Daddy only gave me one shell at a time, but I didn’t care since I was taught that only one shell was needed, I rarely missed. I loved the outdoors and I would stalk a bird or deer for hours for that one clear, sure shot. He never allowed me to hunt squirrels or rabbits with nothing other than my .22 rifle. While I sometimes disagreed with his methods, this would become very important in my future life as it taught me the skills of an expert marksman. I spent the early years of my life learning about nature and how to hunt and fish. One day I told my Dad that I was ready to be a "man" and what would I have to do to prove this. He said that I had to spend a week in the "Grand Bay Swamp" near where we lived with only a knife and some matches to prove I was ready! Well, I did it at age fourteen. I almost starved (at least in my young mind) but he never said he knew about that! I decided that the out-of-doors was my calling and I made my life’s goal to be a soldier in the Army like my Dad had been. I enlisted when I was 17, just after high school, and went to many Army schools. I was Infantry, Airborne, a long-range recon scout and I even graduated from the coveted sniper school at Fort Benning. I have never fired less than expert on any military weapon system and I have also competed on military pistol and rifle teams during the seventies and eighties. I learned to hunt man, the greatest game of all and became competent at hitting the silhouettes out to over 1000 yards. I taught marksman ship skills to many young soldiers. During my military days, I usually spent nine months out of the year in the woods doing my duty to my country. I was very fortunate to have never spent a minute in combat; those who have been there understand my relief at never having to kill another human being. While I eventually became disillusioned with the military due to the liberal democratic politics of the eighties and the fear of death or dismemberment in the Middle East, I loved my skills and I still maintain them today. I married a wonderful woman from Michigan in 1985 and moved there to begin my career as a Controls Engineer. I currently am the Senior Plant Engineer at a General Motors Plant in Flint. I program robots and the automation that manufactures the Chevy and GMC trucks that many of you use to carry you to the great outdoors. When I moved to Michigan, I left my hometown where I had hunting privileges all over the county. As a boy and a young man, I knew many of the farmers and landowners that knew I was a true sportsman and would use their land respectably. They always let me hunt their land and I always shared my bounty with them when they wanted it. When I moved to Michigan, I knew virtually no one and I was forced to spend my fall days hunting on state land that was over hunted and full of novice hunters. For years, I have tolerated this. I knew that the city people were lazy and that when the first gun was fired, all of the game would head to the swamps and hard to access locations. I used my field skills to identify these spots and I would spend hours walking to the remote locations where the smart game would go and hide. While I have been moderately successful over the past years with this plan, I now find my time is short and my son is of the age that it is time he learn how to hunt and safely enjoy the world we have been given without the hassle of long walks into the woods on his young, short legs. I am writing this to those of you who have taken the time to read this monologue up to this point and sympathize with my frustration. I know that accessible hunting land does exist in Michigan. My coworkers successfully hunt these lands and when I have hinted (and even come out and asked) of my desires and abilities, they selfishly guard them like they own them and never ask me to experience them with them. I want to hunt and share this experience with my children. This request is without shame or embarrassment. Do not do this because I mentioned my fathers death, but for my son’s future. I am asking that anyone with a sizable hunting property in the lower (810) 236-1172 and tell me that you are willing to share our resources with my family and me. I am a responsible sportsman with many years of experience and commitment to our natural resources. I have been a member of the Michigan United Conservation Club since the middle eighties. I am a safe hunter and intend for my family to be as well. I would love to share my skills learned as a young man and as a professional soldier with anyone willing to give me a chance. I can still fire a shotgun or rifle with the accuracy many people dream of. When I go to the skeet range, I still keep the shotgun lowered and I face away from the trap to give the "clays" a sporting chance until I hear the trap release, hunters and shooters of many, many years ask me how I do this and I really don’t know. I can’t even explain this to my wife of fourteen years who loves to hunt as much as I do! I can shoot and I can teach others this skill and I would be willing to trade this service for the privilege of hunting with them. I love hunting small and large game with rifle, shotgun and archery. I am willing to share my bounty with the landowner and all I am respectably asking of you is to give me the opportunity to share this with my family so that it will not be forgotten to the future generations. With sincere thanks, Clay Copeland — —

Response:

Question:

I am moving to the mexican interior for a year (Michoacan) and am looking for some suggestion for non-coastal fly fishing. I know the mountain sttreams hold some trout but I know no more. Thanks very much for any suggestions.

Response:

You might look around for some Cyclids. (I believe that spelling is right). Peacock Bass are member of this family. They behave like bluegills. The northernmost occurs in South Texas and is called the Rio Grande Perch. They will take flies and fight like hell. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am moving to the mexican interior for a year (Michoacan) and am looking for some suggestion for non-coastal fly fishing. I know the mountain sttreams hold some trout but I know no more. Thanks very much for any suggestions.

Response:

Question:

Hi All, A friend has asked me to build what is know as an AuSable river boat. It is a flat bottom skiff type boat commonly used for fly fishing on the AuSable river here in Michigan. It may be similar to an adirondack guide boat. If anyone can point me to resources that may help me sort this out such as websites, pics etc. I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks, Craig "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government"

Response:

OK Craig – you asked for it!!! are as goodat helping out as the people here (I know, some days I’m incredulous too ). Wait a minute! about anything boat related, like maybe skiff AND plans (or something). There are a gazillion books of plans — maybe not the AuSable river boat, but certainly something very much like it, and probably using modern construction techniques and materials. For starters: Build the New Instant Boats — Dynamite Payson American Small Sailing Craft — Howard Chapelle Forty Wooden Boats (also 30 and 50 wooden boats) by WoodenBoat Magazine http://www.woodenboat.com ANTYHING by WoodenBoat ANYTHING by Phil Bolger (Boats with an Open Mind is fun reading) Check out http://www.amazon.com for more books. No doubt someone else will jump in with really good advice, and I’ll bow to his/her superior knowledge. BTW – remember that boat building (and all woodworking) is supposed to be fun. For boats in particular, you can generally buy a ready-made boat cheaper than you can build one, so, if you do not WANT to build, and I mean really want to build, tell your friend to find something used and buy it. Have fun, and good luck with your search Rob (building a Sinepuxent skiff from Smithsonian plans) Weaver – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, A friend has asked me to build what is know as an AuSable river boat. It is a flat bottom skiff type boat commonly used for fly fishing on the AuSable river here in Michigan. It may be similar to an adirondack guide boat. If anyone can point me to resources that may help me sort this out such as websites, pics etc. I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks, Craig "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government"