Question:

There is plenty of ice out there.  Here on the West Coast it occurs from now until spring.  Usually below 15,000. The leagality issue is the source of endless debate.  The big question is what constitutes "known icing conditions".  The opinions lately have been swinging toward forcast icing as being "known icing".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180".  You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet.  I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions. I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.

Either or both, I would guess. In Severe Weather Flying (which I strongly recommend) Dennis Newton suggests that the freezing band in stratiform cloud is rarely more than 3000 ft thick, and in convective cloud rarely more than 6000 ft thick.  Above that level, the temperature is low enough so that the concentration of supercooled water droplets is low (they’re already ice). The Airmet may not be able to place that actual freezing band accurately, so it covers a deeper band. I wouldn’t want to bet my life on the freezing band being only 3000 ft thick: the Mooney I fly is about the worst icing-test-aircraft that I can imagine, and I’m certainly not tempted to try to climb through 3000 ft of freezing cloud to find out.  But it’s a useful thing to have in your mind if you encounter icing. Julian Scarfe

Response:

I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms.  Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind.

Some would say that’s overly conservative.  They’re wrong. Actually, in a relatively high performance single like yours, you might consider poking your nose in to take a look, provided you have good options for what to do if your nose gets frostbit. A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though.  If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it.  And if you don’t have a high performance airplane, you have no business sticking your nose in even if you can get out quickly, because the ice will bog you down fast. And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range.

As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe.  It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise?  They can, you know.  I got caught that way once myself. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds.  I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck.  Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip.

Low vis does not make ice.  Precip can. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window.  … Aaron

No, you don’t.  I came damn close myself a couple of times, and both times I thought I could make the flight VFR (once above the clouds, once below them). Michael

Response:

You’re welcome.  I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed.

Excellent recount of your inadvertent adventure, man. And scary as hell. Thanks for takin the time. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing??

Something like that.  See, here’s the scenario.  MEA’s are 5000 ft. Tops are 4000, freezing level is 3000, and I can count on a climb rate of 1000+ fpm up through 7000.  Under those circumstances, I might be willing to give it a go, provided I could get back in to where I was going without having to climb to the MEA.  Remember the MSA around your departure airport, and think about how you would get back in if you stick your nose in and it gets frostbit. In a situation where icing was possible but wasn’t being reported, and the MOCA was below the freezing level, I might even be tempted to give it a shot going through the potential ice unless people were reporting icing.  The idea is that I have LORAN and GPS on board, and the GPS has a power source independent of the aircraft, and the odds that I’ll be forced to descend below the freezing level (to the MOCA, where I still won’t hit anything) AND the LORAN or electrical system goes out on me AND the GPS goes out on me are so long as not to be worth considering.  So push come to shove, I can descend. This is all a risk management game – how much has to go wrong before you run out of options?  If you postulate enough simultaneous failures, eventually you have nothing left to work with and you die. But the fact is, for two independednt things to fail on the same flight, you need to be having a really bad day, so I don’t worry about it.  Ice forming when it wasn’t forecast even though there is visible moisture and temperatures below freezing?  That’s not all that common, but not unexpected either.  If you don’t plan for that you’re a moron.  Electrical failure?  Same deal.  Both in one day?  Pretty damn remote.  Handheld GPS going at the same time? Man, it just wasn’t your day.  See what I’m getting at? The idea is this – if you have visible moisture and are in subfreezing conditions, ice can form.  If all your outs depend on ice not forming somewhere under those conditions, you’re kidding yourself.  You need an out that involves either getting to where it’s above freezing or getting to where there is no visible moisture, and getting there QUICKLY. In general, if you’re on the East or West coast in winter, or in the mountains any time of year, and you have a need to fly IFR (meaning the weather won’t let you get there VFR) then you need deice.  Or you can take your chances.  Sure, there are days that are exceptions, but that’s the general rule. I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast.

Well, how far do your abilities stretch?  This is what I mean by being where you can still climb 500 fpm.  Face it, tops are not very likely to rise more than 500 fpm.  Also, if you can still do 500 fpm where you are, odds are you can go another 5000 ft up with little trouble.  The tops are not likely to go that much higher everywhere at once.  A lightly loaded C-182 should still be doing 500 fpm up at 7000 ft. I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself.  1SM in haze or whatever.

If the haze is thick enough to reduce the vis to 1 sm, well, maybe. That takes A LOT of moisture, maybe enough that it might start to come out as ice.  But I’ve yet to see visibility that poor without ceilings so low as to make going under anywhere but wide-open Midwest (and maybe even not there anymore, what with all the towers going up) way too scary even for me. Michael

Response:

Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions.

Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180".  You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet.  I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions.   I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.

Response:

Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react,

Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning.  I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours. Thanks for your observations! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Actual ice is not rare.  You will find ice in virtually every cloud below 0C on the West Coast.  There are plenty of places with ice-free clouds around 0C but they are generally not near the coast. Mike MU-2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though.  If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it

So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing??  I remember my first solo IMC.  I plunged into the clouds on climbout, expection to be IMC all the way to my destination, only to pop out on top within 30 seconds.  (not in winter of course)  What a beautiful sight! And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe.  It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise?  They can, you know.  I got caught that way once myself.

I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast. Low vis does not make ice.  Precip can.

I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself.  1SM in haze or whatever. … Aaron

Response:

I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right?

For the legal aspects I recommend http://www.avweb.com/articles/icingb/index.html But then I’ve very rarely paid much attention to the FARs myself. Paul Bertorelli’s article in November’s IFR is also well worth a read.  It sent shivers down my spine. I have that T-shirt… Julian Scarfe

Response:

I got "page could not be found" on the sites you mentioned, but I think they are here now. http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/vvice.html and http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/nnice.html I also like http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/integrated/index.html and http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/ nice cloud tops graphs and icing reports and "ice at your intended altitude". Also the ADDS java pireps and airmets at http://adds.awc-kc.noaa.gov/projects/adds/index.html also look under the ADDS satellite icon and do the "forecast clouds" thing for your altitude. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning.  I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours.

The scary part is that I was a low time VFR-only pilot when I was rapidly disabused of my misconceptions.  Story follows. It was a winter day in Inidiana, and I wanted to fly.  My girlfriend wanted to eat.  I convinced her that it would be fun to go to Rochester (IN) where there was a nice restaurant right across the street from the airport.  The weather was 8000OVC and 10 mile vis – good VFR by anyone’s estimation.  When I got my briefing the briefer warned me about icing in clouds.  I pointed out that I was a VFR pilot in a VFR airplane and not planning to be in any clouds.  He told me I’d be fine. Now icing is usually most severe at temperatures above zero – the air in subzero clouds is usually too dry for any significant icing to occur.  The bases were at 8000 ft, and the ground temperatures were subfreezing.  This SHOULD have clued me in about the inversion, but I was a low time VFR-only pilot and missed the cue.  (For our European readers, I refer to zero F, which is about -18C) The Tomahawk I rented had the 125 hp engine.  The advantage was that in the cool winter air, the bigger engine was just the ticket to get us to a comfortable cruising altitude quickly.  The disadvantage was that at full power it was a thirsty beast, and for W&B reasons I elected to depart with a less than full load of fuel.  I estimated that I had about 3 hours, and the round trip would take about 1.5 hours at the power settings I would be using.  That seemed like a comfortable safety margin for day-VFR flying. The trip out and the lunch were uneventful, I hit my chekpoints perfectly, and lunch was good.  The trip back started out just fine.  Then I flew into a light rain shower. It was very light, and I could see right through it, so I really did not realize anything was wrong until I was in it.  Then I noticed (and this all happened in a matter of seconds) that the horizon was going away.  No, it was not a case of inadvertent VFR-into-IMC.  There was a layer of clear ice building on my windshield.  I made an immediate turn out of the shower.  I expect my total time in the rain was only about a minute.  But by the time I was out of it, I was at full throttle, only a little above Vy, and was gaining MAYBE 50-100 ft/min.  I also could not see through my windshield because it, like the wings, was carrying a load of clear ice.  Also, at full throttle, I now had less than an hour of fuel. I was lucky and I kept my head.  I got help from ATC, the ice eventually sublimated off (but I had a plan that would, I think, have worked even with the ice – I was getting vectors to the 10,000+ ft runway at Grissom AFB), and I made an uneventful landing with about 30 minutes of fuel in my tanks.  Had I crashed, no doubt I would have gotten a 90 for flying in known icing conditions. Thanks for your observations!

You’re welcome.  I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed. Here’s another observation – weather is the most complex and open-ended area of pilot knowledge.  The amount of weather knowledge that the average pilot has when he is given a ticket is pretty minimal.  Unsurprisingly, it is also the major player in airplane crashes. Michael

Response:

There is nothing in Part 91 that specifically addresses flight in icing conditions (ignoring, of course, 91.527 which does not apply to most newsgroupies). The legal problem arises from 91.9, which refers to restrictions in the manual for the aircraft. I think common sense is a wonderful substitute for regulation, however. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur.  However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly. If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over  much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

Two sites that you can check out for unofficial guidance (they are experimental) are www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/nnice.html and www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/vvice. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms.  Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind.  And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds.  I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck.  Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window.  … Aaron – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.

Response:

1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR?

I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?

There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area)

Naw!  It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles)

It doesn’t.  There’s snow.  There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions.  All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint.  You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not?  If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

You expect us to trust your judgement when you willingly flew a Traumahawk ? Kidding. Agreed with everything you said. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice.

Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area)

Here’s about the extent of my cloud physics… You never *know* that you’re not going to get freezing rain, but without an inversion it’s unlikely.  If precip is forming above the freezing level it’s usually as ice.  As it falls into warmer temperatures below the freezing level it melts.  Neither are necessarily problems, over and above what you’d expecting the same cloud without the precip; the formation of precip above the freezing level can actually be a good sign, as it may be a sign that the cloud is glaciating (turning from supercooled liquid drops into ice particles). The danger comes where precipitation falls from warmer temperatures above as rain into a sub-zero layer at lower levels.  That’s freezing rain.  In my part of the world (UK), it’s an infrequent scenario, but it certainly can happen. In the mid-US, where there’s less water around to keep the lower levels warm in winter, it’s probably a more frequent occurrence. Precipitation does, however, indicate that the cloud tops are higher than they otherwise would be, if it’s convective.  In my limited experience some of the worst icing conditions are the tops of building cumulus which have not yet started producing much precip. Julian Scarfe

Response:

Thanks. This is helpful. -pw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen.  Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR.  What it takes is an inversion.  You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice.  Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period.  If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not.  We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be.  You won’t know until you fly through them.  You certainly won’t know days in advance.  Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited.  Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up.  Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood.  Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

Response:

Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur.  However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly.   If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over  much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.

In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough.

It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen.  Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR.  What it takes is an inversion.  You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice.  Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right?

Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period.  If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not.  We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s

ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be.  You won’t know until you fly through them.  You certainly won’t know days in advance.  Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited.  Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up.  Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood.  Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive

NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

Response:

I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. For example 2000′ overcast, 6 degrees C on the ground, will usually be above freezing right up to the cloud deck. In the clouds, it is freezing. Tops are high, say 10000AGL. Fairly common actually. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations? There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) Naw!  It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) It doesn’t.  There’s snow.  There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions.  All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint.  You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not?  If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

Question:

As you state I may be full of it, however, I did my homework.

"Facts, schmacts. Anyone can prove anything even remotely true with facts." -Homer Simpson — Charlie…

Response:

When I was a young lad and I spoke "Gink" my mother would wash my mouth out with soap. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The spew continues http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0679887482.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg — Charlie…

Response:

When I was a young lad and I spoke "Gink" my mother would wash my mouth out with soap.

I would hope she still does… — Charlie…

Response:

I was a fast learner.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I was a young lad and I spoke "Gink" my mother would wash my mouth out with soap. I would hope she still does… — Charlie…

Response:

        Hey Ken, What’s the fucking point posting the guys chapter 7 doc’s ? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … The spew continues It’s futile to pay any attention whatsoever to that despicable liar. You can get a sense of how pitiful he is, and perhaps start to appreciate the difference between the reality of a sick old fool living in a trailer in Washington state and the "world champion" of everything, dynamic "tycoon" that he pretends to be around here by taking a look at the following; http://204.227.177.194/wconnect/wc.dll?usbcn_racer~get_case1_v1y2k~98… He’s the running joke of ROFF, but he’s long since ceased to be funny. Conventional wisdom is to just ignore him.

Response:

I was a fast learner.

I should have said "still would"<g… — Charlie…

Response:

        Hey Ken, What’s the fucking point posting the guys chapter 7 doc’s ?

My intent, the "fucking point" as you put it, is to show him a liar and to embarrass him. It’s the public record, Harry, and I’ll brook no grief for posting a pointer to the public record. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I figured that’s what you meant Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was a fast learner. I should have said "still would"<g… — Charlie…

Response:

My intent, the "fucking point" as you put it, is to show him a liar and to embarrass him.

As if this has not been done by you and countless other for years now.The expected outcome is not going to change It’s the public record, Harry, and I’ll brook no grief for posting a pointer to the public record.

I know it’s Public, and the fact you have it book marked  is mind boggling. Ken Fortenberry

Harry Mason www.troutflies.com

Response:

My intent, the "fucking point" as you put it, is to show him a liar and to embarrass him. As if this has not been done by you and countless other for years now.The expected outcome is not going to change

I don’t know what you mean by "expected outcome". I think it important to post the truth every now and then for the benefit of the constantly changing readership who may not know the history of the group or the history of one of the most vile megalomaniacs ever to post here or anywhere else on Usenet. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

As if this has not been done by you and countless other for years now.The expected outcome is not going to change

I’m pretty sure Ken posted what he did in the context of setting the record straight–not for the benefit of the person in question, but rather for those who might not know the history. –Steve

Response:

… The spew continues It’s futile to pay any attention whatsoever to that despicable liar. You can get a sense of how pitiful he is, and perhaps start to appreciate the difference between the reality of a sick old fool living in a trailer in Washington state and the "world champion" of everything, dynamic "tycoon" that he pretends to be around here by taking a look at the following; http://204.227.177.194/wconnect/wc.dll?usbcn_racer~get_case1_v1y2k~98…

LOL! What a sorry, hapless, weaseling twit he is… It does make one wonder how he managed to get a lawyer to represent him for free *and* still keep his airplane… He’s the running joke of ROFF, but he’s long since ceased to be funny. Conventional wisdom is to just ignore him.

Not only conventional wisdom. ANY wisdom… As much as Gehrke represents the proverbial nasty car wreck at the side of the interstate – and thus a temptation to slow down to view the carnage – it would be to the betterment of the group if all could let his delusions pass unanswered… Opey’s Dad

Response:

I don’t know what you mean by "expected outcome". I think it important to post the truth every now and then for the benefit of the constantly changing readership who may not know the history of the group or the history of one of the most vile megalomaniacs ever to post here or anywhere else on Usenet. — Ken Fortenberry

 I’m sorry, I had not realized how deep the mutual animosity was here. Harry Mason www.troutflies.com How much is  Lexis-Nexis ? …think of the fun we could all have…..

Response:

I’m pretty sure Ken posted what he did in the context of setting the record straight–not for the benefit of the person in question, but rather for those who might not know the history. –Steve

in other words " expose the man for what he really is……" is that it ?  Never mind ,I ‘m sorry  I got into this. I expect that kind vitriolic ranting of George, that is what he does. I was disappointed in Kens rather obsessed Crusade to Purge us of The George.   Harry Mason www.troutflies.com

Response:

Maxx, I’ve looked into this NG on and off for a few years, and in that time any number of people have responded to George in endless variations of each of your two options.  I don’t know why folks, if they’re really bothered, don’t just filter out his posts (and replies with his name in them) and get on with life. JR — To reply, remove the Qs from the address above – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So the question is: Do we ignore "The Gherke"and hope he gets bored and leaves. The problem is that he may treat the silence as acceptance in which case the spammage will continue. Or Do we make it perfectly clear (Ken is good at this) that he should take his nonscence elsewhere.

Response:

Ah, Mad (if I may call you by your first name ;^) it is a dilemma indeed. The buffoon clearly loves to see his name in print – no matter the context. If a vat of vomit were to pour from the sky with his name embedded within, he’d take that as a sign of acceptance. Over the past winter, when he was the recipient of the first – and so far, only – mass-killfile effort, this place was truly blessed with his absence. Thus we can only hope that another good non-violent shunning will accomplish the same goal. If not, well, there’s always that classic tome, "The Original Book of Gink" to invoke once again to help any newbies see what a twisted freak he is. He can never escape his own words. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So the question is: Do we ignore "The Gherke"and hope he gets bored and leaves. The problem is that he may treat the silence as acceptance in which case the spammage will continue. Or Do we make it perfectly clear (Ken is good at this) that he should take his nonscence elsewhere. … The spew continues It’s futile to pay any attention whatsoever to that despicable liar. You can get a sense of how pitiful he is, and perhaps start to appreciate the difference between the reality of a sick old fool living in a trailer in Washington state and the "world champion" of everything, dynamic "tycoon" that he pretends to be around here by taking a look at the following; http://204.227.177.194/wconnect/wc.dll?usbcn_racer~get_case1_v1y2k~98… ~2 LOL! What a sorry, hapless, weaseling twit he is… It does make one wonder how he managed to get a lawyer to represent him for free *and* still keep his airplane… He’s the running joke of ROFF, but he’s long since ceased to be funny. Conventional wisdom is to just ignore him. Not only conventional wisdom. ANY wisdom… As much as Gehrke represents the proverbial nasty car wreck at the side of the interstate – and thus a temptation to slow down to view the carnage – it would be to the betterment of the group if all could let his delusions pass unanswered… Opey’s Dad

Response:

YOU CAN LEARN A LOT FROM A WEE FLY There once was a happy little fly buzzing around a barn one day, when she happened upon a large pile of fresh cow manure.  Since it had been hours since her last meal and she was feeling terrible hunger pangs, she flew down to the irresistible delicacy and began to munch out. She ate . . . And ate . . . And then . . . she ate some more! Finally, she decided she’d had plenty.  She washed her face with her tiny front legs, belched a few times, then attempted to fly away. But alas . . . she had pigged out far too much and could not get off the ground! She looked around, wondering what to do about this unpleasant situation, when she spotted a pitchfork leaning upright against the barn wall.  She’d found a solution!  For she believed that if she could just become airborne, she’d be able to fly again. And so . . . she slowly made her way up to the top of the handle.  Once there, she took a deep breath, spread her tiny fly wings, and leapt confidently into the air . . . and then dropped like a rock, and splattered all over the floor . . . The moral of this sad story? Never fly off the handle when you know you’re full of shit. -Anonymous- Op – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do your realize what an idiot you are Harry?  You and Maxx? You both need to get a life. — Mr.Gink "the saga continues" http://www.gink.com/

Response:

from Mr G, Ken is a different story. So Harry, You question a post that reflects negatively on George and he calls you an idiot. Sounds about right.

Harry Mason www.troutflies.com

Response:

 Yes Sir I very much do ,thanks for reminding me. Do your realize what an idiot you are Harry?  You and Maxx? You both need to get a life. — Mr.Gink "the saga continues"   http://www.gink.com/

Harry Mason www.troutflies.com

Response:

For sake of good order, a few misconceptions have been raised regarding what we’ve been able to do when approaching our first year of Production Line Manufacturing of Bamboo Fly Rods.  This Bastard Project started back in January of 2000.  That was TEN MONTHS ago. The fact is, it took the Gehrke’s Gink Company FIVE – SIX MONTHS of production line construction just building the plant and equipment. This alone was a Herculean effort and required a filthy amount of financial investment just to fulfill a dare.  Simple logic and reason reveals that we have been able to produce nearly 75 fly rods in only FIVE Months, not one year.  With zero production in the first half year, this is an amazing achievement.  Yet, if anyone wishes to ‘include’ the hundreds and hundreds of hours it took inventing a new production line, then producing this number of fly rods over a years time is no big deal, we suppose? Well, guess what?  The production line has been down for two months due to me going through some serious operations at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester Minnesota.  So everyone can now understand that we produced nearly 75 fly rods in not FIVE Months but actually in only THREE MONTHS with only one production line. Building bamboo fly rods requires attention to details and a high degree of quality control.  Presently, we are construction more production lines to service the demands made upon our product.  We expect to manufacture a thousand various units a year starting within this first year.  This will begin BEFORE the year 2001.  We will start our 2001 Bastard Bamboo Series before this year’s end.  I regard this as a remarkable adventure.  Those that wish to continue to debase a sincere effort for the world of fly fishing, so be it.  The promise we are keeping is to produce bamboo fly rods at prices the common working man can afford.  I think we are doing that, even though we should increase our prices, we are doing everything in our power to keep these beautiful fly rods affordable for everyone, if possible, and even DECREASE prices for them. — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com "the saga continues"

  gink.vcf

< 1K Download

Response:

First of all you make quite a leap to assume we care. Second, So the now famous #12 that you sent to Bob Smith in Oct of 1999 after you had shipped it to Day Tripper in Aug and had been returned to you in Aug of 99 was not one of yours. Lastly, I thought you left the newsgroup. The spew continues – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [dribble snipped] — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com "the saga continues"

Response:

First of all you make quite a leap to assume we care. Second, So the now famous #12 that you sent to Bob Smith in Oct of 1999 after you had shipped it to Day Tripper in Aug and had been returned to you in Aug of 99 was not one of yours.

_____  You’re full of shit. Lastly, I thought you left the newsgroup. The spew continues

_____ The humor regarding #12 eludes you. Secondly, your callous nature and bitching is a waste of time and you’re nothing but a trolley. Thirdly, I do not post here often anymore but said I would, now and then. Wash your ears out or get reading glasses. — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com "the saga continues"

  gink.vcf

< 1K Download

Response:

The spew continues

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0679887482.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg — Charlie…

Response:

… The spew continues

It’s futile to pay any attention whatsoever to that despicable liar. You can get a sense of how pitiful he is, and perhaps start to appreciate the difference between the reality of a sick old fool living in a trailer in Washington state and the "world champion" of everything, dynamic "tycoon" that he pretends to be around here by taking a look at the following; http://204.227.177.194/wconnect/wc.dll?usbcn_racer~get_case1_v1y2k~98… He’s the running joke of ROFF, but he’s long since ceased to be funny. Conventional wisdom is to just ignore him. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Dear Mr Gink, As you state I may be full of it, however, I did my homework. On YOUR website (http://www.gink.com/rod_facts/bastard_monthly_archives.html) you have a monthly update starting in January of 1999. In the july 99 update there is a picture (dated 11-july-99) of you signing the first Bastard bamboo. In the Aug 99 update there is mention of Doug casting #20 The nov99 update marks the introduction of the black raven "The events began in January of this year and six months of the effort involved just constructing the Bamboo Production Line.  The final six months began with two months just learning how to make a bamboo fly rod.  In four months of actual serious rod making we have produced a little less than 50 fly rods in four months. " So according to your website youve been at this for nearly 2 years. You make more "mis-statements" than Reagan and Quayle combined. First of all you make quite a leap to assume we care. Second, So the now famous #12 that you sent to Bob Smith in Oct of 1999 after you had shipped it to Day Tripper in Aug and had been returned to you in Aug of 99 was not one of yours. _____  You’re full of shit.

[spew sniped]

Response:

Question:

Dear All,     I will be at a conference in Port Douglas, N. of Cairns, Australia, in late May.  Any advice about FF in the area (contacts, guides etc) Thanks, Gordon

Response:

Dear All,     I will be at a conference in Port Douglas, N. of Cairns, Australia, in late May.  Any advice about FF in the area (contacts, guides etc)

Yesterday I talked with an Australian guide at the San Mateo Expo. He was really enthusiastic about the flyfishing at Cape York, which in in that general area. He seemed like a good guy. His outfit is Australia-America Fishing Connections and his name is — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Dear All,     I will be at a conference in Port Douglas, N. of Cairns, Australia, in late May.  Any advice about FF in the area (contacts, guides etc) Thanks, Gordon

Peter Haynes is one of the best up there (Cairns based). Ph 07 40332398 He is an estuary and river FF specialist who does very well on the glamour species plus some of his own specialities. The guy rw mentions is a booking agent of sorts but I don’t know how many australian outfits he has arrangements with – might be worth an e- mail. You can also hire your own dingies at Port Douglas and do it all yourself – some terrific little creeks up there – mind the crocs though. Cheers JK Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

Question:

Flyfishing for bonefish in the stressfree environment of the Keys in March is the way to spend time for yourself and family. Try your skills on bonefish being caught from 9lbs and up. If you would like to spend a day on the flats, go to http://www.boneranger.com and plan your trip today! Hope to see you on the flats!

Response:

Flyfishing for bonefish in the stressfree environment of the Keys in March is the way to spend time for yourself and family. Try your skills on bonefish being caught from 9lbs and up. If you would like to spend a day on the flats, go to http://www.boneranger.com and plan your trip today! Hope to see you on the flats!

If you can go bonefishing just once in your life, do it. I am trying to get everyone to go, but especially the people that have fish for a life time in fresh water. It is so neat and if you are looking for a way to do it cheap, I can give you some advise. Going with a guide is really the best. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

Response:

Question:

Looking for used Sage rod in good condition. This is for me and is not a commercial venture. I love fly fishing and I want to have a nice rod. Used fishing reel of excellent quality also wanted. . email telephone number and name so I can contact you with questions, Thanks. Russ.

Response:

Question:

I would appreciate finding out where there is private water open to the public for flyfishing at a fee.  What would be a reasonable cost per day for either American plan (with meals) or European plan (without plans)? Catch and release fishing would be just fine.  It is getting more and more difficult to find places to fish. I usually have to fish by myself because no one in my family is interested and it is vey difficult to match schedules with friends.  Moreover, many of my friends think that fishing should be free. William Buchman

Response:

I would appreciate finding out where there is private water open to the public for flyfishing at a fee.  What would be a reasonable cost per day for either American plan (with meals) or European plan (without plans)? Catch and release fishing would be just fine.  It is getting more and more difficult to find places to fish. I usually have to fish by myself because no one in my family is interested and it is vey difficult to match schedules with friends.  Moreover, many of my friends think that fishing should be free.

William: Would it help if you narrowed the criteria to a continent or two? (or perhaps a region or two, even)? Otherwise, I’m sure you’ll troll up responses from Russia to New Zealand, Alaska to Argentina… Just wondering… /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.    Alpha Server Engineering  < <           "Read this and nobody gets hurt"           < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Response:

Would it help if you narrowed the criteria to a continent or two? (or perhaps a region or two, even)? Otherwise, I’m sure you’ll troll up responses from Russia to New Zealand, Alaska to Argentina… You are right of course.  There are other parts to the world than the area I live in which is Los Angeles. I am particularly interested in the Western United States but willing to be tempted toward more distant horizons. William Buchman

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you might try marble canyon arizona ,colorado river just below glen canyon dam. i have been there three times and the fly fishing is exelent.

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Question:

Watch out for the new toilet rings they are not the old beeswax kind and are to soft and oily. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Try Test clips from Radio shack, they are a lot cheaper than those from the fly shop.  Also,  Wax Toilet gaskets make about the tackiest dubbing Arrrrrrg!  THE WAX TOILET GASKET.    What a great idea.  I thought this thread was dead.  We  were just ready to put together kits and start tying.  We would have come up short.  But saved by the toilet gasket.    What can we use to store all this great equipment?  Maybe we should go to a pot party and buy some Tupper ware.   Nah!  We are doing such a fine job.  Throw the plastic out.   I’m a river keeper, too!      .

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Thread sucking is a method…

And here I thought that I had invented this.  Oh well, another delusion of grandeur blown all to bits… <grin regards, John — Dr. John G. Hardie Indiana University Cyclotron Facility

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Thread sucking is a method…

      Sounds a little like Blondie’s definition of Dagwood as a fly tyer: "thread-sucking-leach." —

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writes: I would like to start a new thread on fly tying tools and paraphernalia, specifically, home-brew tools or modifications to store-bought ones.  I am afraid of this hobby going the way of many others, where the manufacturers (and peer pressure) convince everyone that they need to buy things that are easily made at home.  I offer a few here to get things going: Who wants to add more? Dave

Here is another one for the bench.  You can make an inexpensive dubbing teaser by asking your dentist for a root-canal pick.  Epoxy them in a wood handle and you got yourself an Awsome Dubbing Teaser. Nick

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I use a selection of cartridge cases instead of an adjustable hair stacker.  Short = 9 mm Parabellum, Medium = 357 Mag, Long = Sawed off rifle case. — Keep your stick on the ice.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think there is a point where using home grown flytying tools vs. store bought tools is more trouble than it’s worth.  Hackle pliers are just not that expensive.  Working with good tools designed for flytying is going to make the whole experience more enjoyable.  Sure you can save a few bucks over the long run is it really worth it. On the other hand, several people advocated the use of bobbins with ceramic inserts.  Has anyone really come up with a good estimate about how long it takes to wear a groove in the tube of a bobbin with a metal sleave?  For the cost of a bobbin with a ceramic sleeve I can buy a couple of cheaper steel sleeve bobbins.  So it wears out after five years or so.  I would have save a lot of time over those years because I didn’t have to thread a bobbin (I use the thread sucking technique too and it works well for me) everry time I changed threads.

This is a very valid point.  I think the choice of tools follows with the depth of one’s tying.  Do you tie 100 flys in a sitting or just 3 or 4?  Do you tie for yourself only, just for friends to give away, or hundreds to sell to others?   I find that with the limited amount of tying I do — just for myself and a few friends — I can get by with the cheaper steel bobbin.  I have yet to wear a groove in one that I bought for 25 cents on clearance.  Hackle plyers are cheap.  Why spend hours grinding one smooth?  Or for that matter…. Why spend $125 or more on a vise?  If I made a business out of tying flys, however, my attitude would change drastically.  I would then want the best tools money can buy.   I enjoy hearing about the better tools and I have tried them out from time to time, but I tend to weigh their price with their advantages over my rather limited private use.   I feel the same way about rods and reels.   Bob

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Try Test clips from Radio shack, they are a lot cheaper than those from the fly shop.  Also,  Wax Toilet gaskets make about the tackiest dubbing wax you’ve ever seen.             Tom Loveday   Keizer, OR                I’d Rather Be Fishing

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Try Test clips from Radio shack, they are a lot cheaper than those from the fly shop.  Also,  Wax Toilet gaskets make about the tackiest dubbing Arrrrrrg!  THE WAX TOILET GASKET.    What a great idea.  I thought this thread was dead.  We  were just ready to put together kits and start tying.  We would have come up short.  But saved by the toilet gasket.    What can we use to store all this great equipment?  Maybe we should go to a pot party and buy some Tupper ware.   Nah!  We are doing such a fine job.  Throw the plastic out.

For that matter, while you’re shopping at the hardware store for toilet items, pick up some lead wool.  It’s cheap and it makes great lead weight for flies. Jamus – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I’m a river keeper, too!      .

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:  What is the Thread Sucking technique for preparing a bobin? Aaron,  He’s refering to the practice of allowing some slack in your tying thread, placing the tip of the thread into the end of the barrel of your bobbin, and giving a sharp intake of air (i.e. "Sucking") to the other end of the barrel of the bobbin.  This pulls the thread through the barrel unless there is too much wax buildup to allow the thread in or you’re like me and insist on getting that slack you allowed wrapped around various parts of your anatomy and gumming up the works! Charley (been tying for my friends for 22 years!)

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Working with good tools designed for flytying is going to make the whole experience more enjoyable.  Sure you can save a few bucks over the long run is it really worth it.

I don’t use tools specifically manufactured for fly tying to save money.  I do it   for the same reason why I don’t watch drag racing.  Most drag racing, and other   "sports",  have come down to a competition of machines and equipment as opposed to   man.  I enjoy tying flies with as little manufactured tools as possible because it   becomes a question of what is making the fly that catches the fish, a skilled   creative person or equipment.  I still catch plenty of fish. —

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This is an old one, but many people use electronic test lead clips as hackle pliers.  They come in a variety of sizes and can be bought at places like Radio Shack. I’ve also heard of using the (hemostat or tubing?) clamps from a medical supply store for hackle pliers.  File the teeth off of the clamping surfaces.  (I’m not in the medical profession, so I probably have the exact type of clamp wrong.)  

I think the proper medical term for those kinds of clamps is "roach clip" I think there is a point where using home grown flytying tools vs. store bought tools is more trouble than it’s worth.  Hackle pliers are just not that expensive.  Working with good tools designed for flytying is going to make the whole experience more enjoyable.  Sure you can save a few bucks over the long run is it really worth it. On the other hand, several people advocated the use of bobbins with ceramic inserts.  Has anyone really come up with a good estimate about how long it takes to wear a groove in the tube of a bobbin with a metal sleave?  For the cost of a bobbin with a ceramic sleeve I can buy a couple of cheaper steel sleeve bobbins.  So it wears out after five years or so.  I would have save a lot of time over those years because I didn’t have to thread a bobbin (I use the thread sucking technique too and it works well for me) everry time I changed threads. — John Fereira "Guru of Miscellany" Pleasanton, CA "Ask me about my vow of silence."

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And here I thought I was one of the only ones to show up at the local welding shop with a set of new (slightly modified) Vise-Grips and a length of steel rod, asking for them to be welded together. It’s just about the only way to handle big saltwater hooks! JL 8-Wt Editor

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And here I thought I was one of the only ones to show up at the local welding shop with a set of new (slightly modified) Vise-Grips and a length of steel rod, asking for them to be welded together. It’s just about the only way to handle big saltwater hooks!

An HMH vise with a super magnum jaw will handle the largest hooks. Mark Miller

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On the other hand, several people advocated the use of bobbins with ceramic inserts.  Has anyone really come up with a good estimate about how long it takes to wear a groove in the tube of a bobbin with a metal sleave?

For those of us who tie large bass bugs and use Kevlar thread, you can tear up a steel tube in short order (less than a season). The ceramic tubes hold up much better when Kevlar is you spinning thread of choice. JL 8-Wt Editor

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This is an old one, but many people use electronic test lead clips as hackle pliers.  They come in a variety of sizes and can be bought at places like Radio Shack. I’ve also heard of using the (hemostat or tubing?) clamps from a medical supply store for hackle pliers.  File the teeth off of the clamping surfaces.  (I’m not in the medical profession, so I probably have the exact type of clamp wrong.)  I don’t know, however, if this alternative is cheaper than the ones from fly tying supply stores. Dave

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Couldn’t agree more about exercising good home-grown common sense inventivenes to accomplish just about everything promised by the gadget-floggers.

Very true.  And, although this observation drifts slightly away from the subject of home-made tying tools, the very best tools a fly tier has are his or her hands.  I try to rely on mechanical tools as little as possible, tying as much as possible with the fingers.  This saves time otherwise lost in locating, picking up and putting down the tool each time a fly is tied. Laying out your tools and materials in advance, and then tying with less fiddling with unnecessary tools, allows you to swiftly and smoothly tie a dozen flies of the same pattern, and they’ll be tighter, better flies. Woods Hole, MA   USA

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My father-in-law has made me several hair stackers out of copper and brass pipe scraps and end fittings, using sizes which just fit inside the next.  I then glued rubber on the bottom so they don’t rattle when tapped to stack the hair.  He also made me a vise, but nothing can substitute for my HMH. A bic pen with the guts removed is possibly the most useful tool for pushing back piles of spun deer hair, and also half hitching. You can often thread your bobbin by starting the thread and then sucking it through, that is if the wax is not built up too bad. The ultimate in homemade tools, the mouth!

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A spent shotgun shell can be used as a hair stacker. I made a "bobbin hanger" (not sure if there is an official name) out of a wire coat hanger.  I have seen fancier ones made from a piece of rod soldered to a small metal tube that slips over the upright rod of a vice.  Before wrapping hackle, you half-hitch the thread, then extend the thread out off of the eye end of the hook and over the bobbin hanger.  The thread is now out of the way for winding the hackle. Dave

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The front end of a ballpoint pen casing makes a find half-hitch tool. Different pens yield different sizes of hole in the tool.  (Is there anyone who doesn’t Who wants to add more?

I have not seen it lately, perhaps to a lack of looking around, but back in the fifties I use to see people using vise grips for fly tying vises.  It worked great, depending on the fly, at times you lay the VG on it side, adjust the jaw closure to be proper for you size hook and have at it.  I think it would probably work for any fly if you build a modest little stand out of wood and hold the vise up off of the table or what ever.  When we used to tye the flys out on the boat, we just stuck the jaw part over the edge of a table.   I just remembered a local tyer in Annapolis, Md also used a vise grip.  He did not cotton to a lot of foolishness,  but his flys sure worked. George,

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Couldn’t agree more about exercising good home-grown common sense inventivenes to accomplish just about everything promised by the gadget-floggers. But Dave, I think you’re a little late. Look in this year’s catalogs and you’ll see there’s everything from fly steam-cleaners to special brushes to re-align plume barbs. (sigh!) The gadgeteers have alread won. Still, we don’t have to buy, do we? If you can get your hands on some back issues of American Fly Tyer and Angler, there’s a regular series on the sort of thing you’re talking about.  Have fun. — David A. Calderisi

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I would like to start a new thread on fly tying tools and paraphernalia, specifically, home-brew tools or modifications to store-bought ones.  I am afraid of this hobby going the way of many others, where the manufacturers (and peer pressure) convince everyone that they need to buy things that are easily made at home.  I offer a few here to get things going: A potter’s needle tool is a cheap alternative to a dubbing needle. You can make a dubbing needle from a sewing needle and a piece of wooden dowel rod.  Glue the needle into a hole drilled in the end of the dowel.  If you break the needle across the eye first, the two jagged ends can be jammed into the bottom of the hole for better holding power.  (Be careful and protect your eyes when cutting/breaking the needle.) Dental floss threaders (available at drug stores) can be used as bobbin threaders. You can make a bobbin threader out of piano wire.  Bend a piece of wire in half, drill a hole in the end of a wooden dowel rod, and epoxy the two ends of the wire into the hole. I suspect you can also make a dubbing fur winding tool in a similar fashion. Nail polish works as head cement.  I’ve had Sally Hansen’s "Hard As Nails with Nylon" in nude (i.e., clear) highly recommended.  Pull out the bristles from the brush and replace with a (broken off) sewing needle, instead.  The needle applicator will allow you to apply a drop at a time without needing to grab your dubbing needle or a toothpick to do it.  (I’ve seen other people use this trick, but haven’t done it yet myself.  I am not sure if you need to epoxy the needle in place or if it will stick there on its own.) The front end of a ballpoint pen casing makes a find half-hitch tool. Different pens yield different sizes of hole in the tool.  (Is there anyone who doesn’t know this one already?) Who wants to add more? Dave

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Question:

Does anybody have any float tube puncture experiences to relate? Whilst toodling along on a lake the other day I started to think about what would happen if my tube suddenly sprung a leak.  A life preserver is an obvious answer, but over fleece jacket and fly vest? What happens when your chest waders fill with water? How difficult is it to exit the deflated tube and then remove clothing? etc. etc. etc….. Failing any practical advice as a result of this posting, I think its time to find a pool somewhere and experiment with various scenarios. Any suggestions? B.

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Does anybody have any float tube puncture experiences to relate? Whilst toodling along on a lake the other day I started to think about what would happen if my tube suddenly sprung a leak.  A life preserver is an obvious answer, but over fleece jacket and fly vest? What happens when your chest waders fill with water? How difficult is it to exit the deflated tube and then remove clothing? etc. etc. etc…..

Float fishing without a life jacket is very ill advised (I started to say stupid, but decided to be nice instead).  With all the stuff you carry fly fishing you could go right to the bottom very easily.  Anybody carry extra spools, split shot, etc?  I don’t think waders are that much of a problem, since the water in them will be neutral boyancy, though I’ve not tried that. Try a better quality life jacket under your vest.  If you’re wearing a jacket anyway, it should not be that much of a problem.  Another solution is inflatable life jackets that have a CO2 cartridge in them. You can even buy fly vests with these built in.  And, I saw an integrated fly jacket/life jacket combination in a fly shop the other day which would be a good solution. One thing I wonder about is hyperthermia, though.  If you take a dip in a cold water pond in early spring or late fall, how long before you pass out?  I sure wouldn’t want to try it.  I would think waders would really help here, though, since they are somewhat like the wet suits divers wear. — | Dartmouth College                                  Home:  603-448-5677 | | 6211 Sudikoff Laboratory, Rm 108                                       | | Hanover, NH  03755                                                     |

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Does anybody have any float tube puncture experiences to relate? Whilst toodling along on a lake the other day I started to think about what would happen if my tube suddenly sprung a leak.  A life preserver is an obvious answer, but over fleece jacket and fly vest? What happens when your chest waders fill with water? How difficult is it to exit the deflated tube and then remove clothing? etc. etc. etc….. Failing any practical advice as a result of this posting, I think its time to find a pool somewhere and experiment with various scenarios. Any suggestions? B.

While it has never happened to me, my thoughts on the subject is the backrest is an inflated bladder on my float tube, so if I suffered a puncture, kick like crazy for the shore, and when the tube is too deflated to support me anymore, free my feet from the tube, hug the backrest, and keep kicking. In my younger days I surfed in the Pacific Ocean, and I wore a neoprene wet suit. The wet suit was fairly thin (for ease of movement), I would estimate about the same thickness of a 2 or 3 mm wader. The wet suit was amazingly buoyant. Enough so that I would float at chin level with no effort. I think a neoprene chest wader would help a lot with floatation also. I have also seen a set of suspenders that inflates with a CO2 cartridge. Maybe if I couldn’t swim I would consider buying it. Darryl

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<stuff deleted One thing I wonder about is hyperthermia, though.  If you take a dip

                                ^^ I rarely get hyperthermia unless I’m fishing too far down Hot Creek. HypOthermia, now that’s a problem in cold water. (Sorry, I couldn’t resist!) Sean Brennan

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Well, it happened to me tonight.  As I loaded my float tube, I noticed it was a bit low.  I stopped by the gas station on the way out, and filled the tube.  However, I did continue to wonder why it was low, so I did keep an eye on the tube level for a while.  Well my tube didn’t seem to be loosing air, so naturally my attention turned to the crappie and bass that were hitting tonite.  Long about dusk, I suddenly noticed the tube was getting low and -then- noticed the sound of a leak.  I wasn’t far off the bank, rarely am when fishing this local gravel pit, so I paddled over to the bank and got out.  No reason to panic, the loss of air was audible but fairly slow.  As I laid the tube in the back of mmy truck, I could still hear the leak. Altogether I had been out fishing at least 4 hours, I know because I was listening to the Broncos getting beat by the Jets, and the post game show. Sure glad the fish were biting, because the Broncs weren’t.  I suppose the radio headphones were the reason I couldn’t hear the leak. I have no clue why or how I got the puncture, probably was due to the tube being about 10 years old.  I think I’ll get a new one.  My tube is one that has a separate tube for a back rest, so in case of a rapid deflation, I might be able to stay afloat.   All things considered, I wouldn’t even consider wearing a life jacket not in the past and not in the future.  In some states, a life jacket is req’d, but I don’t think it is in CO.  This experience confirmed my belief that any small puncture will deflate very slowly, since the air pressure in a float tube is so low.  I would take a good swift slice with a knife to achieve a rapid failure, and that is not likely (at least in places where I fish . Tight Lines, Kevin

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Question:

Fly fishermen (more properly fly fisherpersons, wow, ain’t nothing sacred anymore)  you probably will be interested in a very new newsgroup rec.outdoors.fishing.fly devoted exclusively to fly fishing interests. Tight lines Mike Griffith —

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MGFly fishermen (more properly fly fisherpersons, wow, ain’t nothing MGsacred anymore)  you probably will be interested in a very new newsgroup MGrec.outdoors.fishing.fly devoted exclusively to fly fishing interests. How do I ask my friendly sysop to access rec.outdoors.fishing.fly?  I think he’ll want to know who it comes from, anticipated message volume and such.  Thanks for helping out a novice computer user and soon to be novice flyfisherperson! Message written at 8:40pm, on Wednesday, May 25, 1994. —