Question:

they tend to be much more     durable than the store-bought variety, and cost about 50 cents apiece.     Home-made leaders cost me about a dime apiece, if that. I can tell that you haven’t bought store-bought leaders in quite a while.     Willi

Response:

 I have been reading about the advantages/disadvantages of leader material. The author of the book I’m reading seemed to indicate that manufactured knotless leaders can have a variability in performance because of the way the leader is tapered.  Knotted leaders gives more control of the proportions on the leader formulas to ensure the taper is more accurate. Also, there is the flexibility of using different types of leader material to customize the leader to the fishing conditions.  Like using a stiffer leader material on the butt and middle sections and more supple material on the presentation end of the leader. He also gets into the types of knots and whether or not "hinging" occurs and what impact that has on the transfer of energy from the rod to the line to the fly. Is there a preference by you guys whether or not you tie your own leaders or go with the ready-made pre-tapered leaders? Thanks, Eric p.s.  Thanks for the response on the tippet post.  A lot of good info there.

Response:

I personally don’t really have a preference either way. I do find in some rivers where algae is a problem the need to constantly clear the knots on the leader of the weed or algae to be a pain, but  then I have to do that with the tippet knot anyway. In this day and age of convenience I find the range of tapered leaders now offered covers all of the fishing situations I do and it’s simple. I have a heavy piece of butt section needle knotted to the fly line, I attach a commercial leader to that and a tippet to the end of it and go fishing. Tying your own leaders can be fun, but I find the fun soon wears off. Umpqua have a phenomenal range of different leaders. check out their web site if you are interested, even if you don’t purchase your leaders their various different designs will give you some ideas for your own. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been reading about the advantages/disadvantages of leader material. The author of the book I’m reading seemed to indicate that manufactured knotless leaders can have a variability in performance because of the way the leader is tapered.  Knotted leaders gives more control of the proportions on the leader formulas to ensure the taper is more accurate. Also, there is the flexibility of using different types of leader material to customize the leader to the fishing conditions.  Like using a stiffer leader material on the butt and middle sections and more supple material on the presentation end of the leader. He also gets into the types of knots and whether or not "hinging" occurs and what impact that has on the transfer of energy from the rod to the line to the fly. Is there a preference by you guys whether or not you tie your own leaders or go with the ready-made pre-tapered leaders? Thanks, Eric p.s.  Thanks for the response on the tippet post.  A lot of good info there.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been reading about the advantages/disadvantages of leader material. The author of the book I’m reading seemed to indicate that manufactured knotless leaders can have a variability in performance because of the way the leader is tapered.  Knotted leaders gives more control of the proportions on the leader formulas to ensure the taper is more accurate. Also, there is the flexibility of using different types of leader material to customize the leader to the fishing conditions.  Like using a stiffer leader material on the butt and middle sections and more supple material on the presentation end of the leader. He also gets into the types of knots and whether or not "hinging" occurs and what impact that has on the transfer of energy from the rod to the line to the fly. Is there a preference by you guys whether or not you tie your own leaders or go with the ready-made pre-tapered leaders?

I almost always make my own because I think it’s easy and like you said I can use whatever material I want.  I can whip up a leader or fix one in a couple minutes out on the stream.  I don’t think there’s as much difference between some of these leader formulas as the creators imply, but still it’s nice to know you can quickly make changes to your leader once you know the basics of how they work and how to tie the knots.

Response:

In this day and age of convenience I find the range of tapered leaders now offered covers all of the fishing situations I do and it’s simple. I have a heavy piece of butt section needle knotted to the fly line, I attach a commercial leader to that and a tippet to the end of it and go fishing. Tying your own leaders can be fun, but I find the fun soon wears off.

Sounds like you’re tying your own leaders the way it is.  Borger’s Uni-body leader is no more complicated than that.

Response:

[...] I don’t think there’s as much difference between some of these leader formulas as the creators imply…

        Agreed.  There are more variations in leader formulae than Heinz has pickles and ketchup.  :-)  I’ve been using the simple formula in Kreh’s and Sosin’s "Practical Fishing Knots", and for 90% of the fishing I do, it works about as well as anything.   but still it’s nice to know you can quickly make changes to your leader once you know the basics of how they work and how to tie the knots.

        I think that’s the beauty of tying your own.  You can tweak your leader to the conditions and the characteristics of the fly you’re using and refine the presentation to what you need.  Sometimes this can really pay off.  Of course, other times, the leader configuration doesn’t matter a whit. Todd

Response:

Perhaps so, so but in reality, that is the correct way to use store bought leaders with the butt section bit being the only real optional part. Tippet should always be added pretty much. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In this day and age of convenience I find the range of tapered leaders now offered covers all of the fishing situations I do and it’s simple. I have a heavy piece of butt section needle knotted to the fly line, I attach a commercial leader to that and a tippet to the end of it and go fishing. Tying your own leaders can be fun, but I find the fun soon wears off. Sounds like you’re tying your own leaders the way it is.  Borger’s Uni-body leader is no more complicated than that.

Response:

I have been reading about the advantages/disadvantages of leader material. The author of the book I’m reading seemed to indicate that manufactured knotless leaders can have a variability in performance because of the way the leader is tapered.  Knotted leaders gives more control of the proportions on the leader formulas to ensure the taper is more accurate. Also, there is the flexibility of using different types of leader material to customize the leader to the fishing conditions.  Like using a stiffer leader material on the butt and middle sections and more supple material on the presentation end of the leader.

I prefer tying my own because a) it can get you back into rising fish faster, and b) the flexibility you mention above. He also gets into the types of knots and whether or not "hinging" occurs and what impact that has on the transfer of energy from the rod to the line to the fly.

I haven’t noticed any hinging with the double surgeon’s knot, and I think the presentation is comparable either way. I’m sure some strength is lost, as it is with any knot, but I haven’t lost any more fish with the hand-tied than with the store-bought. — TL, Tim

Response:

Slightly off topic, but what book are you reading? Jim Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been reading about the advantages/disadvantages of leader material. The author of the book I’m reading seemed to indicate that manufactured knotless leaders can have a variability in performance because of the way the leader is tapered.  Knotted leaders gives more control of the proportions on the leader formulas to ensure the taper is more accurate. Also, there is the flexibility of using different types of leader material to customize the leader to the fishing conditions.  Like using a stiffer leader material on the butt and middle sections and more supple material on the presentation end of the leader. He also gets into the types of knots and whether or not "hinging" occurs and what impact that has on the transfer of energy from the rod to the line to the fly. Is there a preference by you guys whether or not you tie your own leaders or go with the ready-made pre-tapered leaders? Thanks, Eric p.s.  Thanks for the response on the tippet post.  A lot of good info there.

Response:

Is there a preference by you guys whether or not you tie your own leaders or go with the ready-made pre-tapered leaders?

I find the disadvantages of knots in leaders too great for dry fly fishing (viz. bits of flimsy mono catching on the knots.) I use a tapered leader tapered to a heavier weight – say four pounds – then tie a tippet of a lighter weight – say three pounds – maybe two or three feet. And then there’s a couple of feet of heavy mono attached to the line, with a loop in it. Keep cutting the tippet down till there’s no more, then add another. L

Response:

The book is titled "Drag-Free Drift Leader Design and Presentation Techniques for Fly Fishing" by Joseph A. Kissane.  There’s an associated CD Rom that does leader calculations by Steven B. Schweitzer.  He’s cofounder of the Global Flyfisher website.  The book is actually pretty good.  The author is an engineer so it’s written in a technical writing style and is very detailed in parts.  Sometimes I feel like I’m reading a physics textbook. I’m an analyst by profession so I like to understand things. Sometimes I think it’s better not knowing whether my leader is hinging or not.  Like one guy posted on the Leaders & Tippet thread  that goes something like this: "I just tie it that way and it works.  Don’t know why." I think that’s all that counts. Eric

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Slightly off topic, but what book are you reading? Jim Ray I have been reading about the advantages/disadvantages of leader material. The author of the book I’m reading seemed to indicate that manufactured knotless leaders can have a variability in performance because of the way the leader is tapered.  Knotted leaders gives more control of the proportions on the leader formulas to ensure the taper is more accurate. Also, there is the flexibility of using different types of leader material to customize the leader to the fishing conditions.  Like using a stiffer leader material on the butt and middle sections and more supple material on the presentation end of the leader. He also gets into the types of knots and whether or not "hinging" occurs and what impact that has on the transfer of energy from the rod to the line to the fly. Is there a preference by you guys whether or not you tie your own leaders or go with the ready-made pre-tapered leaders? Thanks, Eric p.s.  Thanks for the response on the tippet post.  A lot of good info there.

Response:

Hi Eric, I would say that today that about 90% of the fly fishers use knotless tapered leaders for trout. Why? Well, probably the same reason about 90% of the fly fishers buy flies? They don’t have the time or the skill. Actually, many anglers use knotless leaders for trout because they don’t want all those knots for stuff to catch on. Lots of very sophisticated fly fishers use tapered knotless leader, but they modify them a bit. Years ago we all tied our own leaders because the only ones you could buy were not too good. I still tie my own leaders for steelhead and salt water. I think everyone that wants to tie their own leaders, tie their own flies and build their own rods should do so because it is fun and can be very educational. After you tie your own knotted leaders and play with them to see how they work, you can use knotless tapered leaders and do some adjusting on them to get them to work just fine. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been reading about the advantages/disadvantages of leader material. The author of the book I’m reading seemed to indicate that manufactured knotless leaders can have a variability in performance because of the way the leader is tapered.  Knotted leaders gives more control of the proportions on the leader formulas to ensure the taper is more accurate. Also, there is the flexibility of using different types of leader material to customize the leader to the fishing conditions.  Like using a stiffer leader material on the butt and middle sections and more supple material on the presentation end of the leader. He also gets into the types of knots and whether or not "hinging" occurs and what impact that has on the transfer of energy from the rod to the line to the fly. Is there a preference by you guys whether or not you tie your own leaders or go with the ready-made pre-tapered leaders? Thanks, Eric p.s.  Thanks for the response on the tippet post.  A lot of good info there.

Response:

Hi Eric, I would say that today that about 90% of the fly fishers use knotless tapered leaders for trout. Why? Well, probably the same reason about 90% of the fly fishers buy flies? They don’t have the time or the skill. Actually, many anglers use knotless leaders for trout because they don’t want all those knots for stuff to catch on…

I used knotless leaders for the first year or two that I fly fished, and they worked well enough, but I think my own leaders work even better. Having stuff catch on the knots is a minor to nonexistent "problem," or at least it is in the places I normally fish. When it does happen, removing the moss or whatever is pretty quick and simple. It only takes a few minutes to make a leader from scratch, and these leaders have, IMO, several important advantages. I can give it exactly the taper I want, I can use different kinds of monofilament in different parts of the leader (stiffer at the butt, softer at the tippet, for instance), and when rebuilding the leader at streamside, I know exactly where I am in the taper by following the knots. The toughest part is learning to tie a good blood knot, and it only takes a few leaders to get the hang of that. I tie my own flies for similar reasons. I can use exactly which materials I want, and modify or create patterns as I see fit,  they tend to be much more durable than the store-bought variety, and cost about 50 cents apiece. Home-made leaders cost me about a dime apiece, if that. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

Response:

Hi Eric, I would say that today that about 90% of the fly fishers use knotless tapered leaders for trout. Why? Well, probably the same reason about 90% of the fly fishers buy flies? They don’t have the time or the skill.

What a "Right On" remark to make.  Great! Actually, many anglers use knotless leaders for trout because they don’t want all those knots for stuff to catch on.

Not, IMHO, anything but a cop out reason.  Doesn’t hold water because it is "The Fly" which must be kept clean at all times.   After you tie your own knotted leaders and play with them to see how they work, you can use knotless tapered leaders and do some adjusting on them to get them to work just fine.

Bill?  I really think you’re a savvy kind of shop owner and the majority of your advice is super.  But I have to say this about tapered leaders.  From Brand to Brand, there is nothing as consistant in fly fishing than the consistant inconsistant tapers of tapered leaders. The ONLY WAY to be assured of a sharp turn over and absolute control for the SERIOUS fly fisherman is to tie their own, or better put, roll their own leaders.  It is rare that anything catches knots in hand tied leaders, not unless the water is full of dissideous moss and junk and even then, a tapered leader still  has a minimum of two or three knots involved. I truely dislike tapered leaders because they are heat melted from a single large diameter butt section and pulled to a longer taper, not unlike pulling warm bubble gum out of one’s mouth.  No two strings or pull are the same. Never! I take my fly fishing much too seriously not to tie my own.  It is an art form just like fly tying.  Why would anyone deny themselves of this pleasure when it comes to "The Ways of a Trout?"  I just can’t fathom the mind set that uses tapered leaders. George Gehrke "who always rolls his own" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Hi Bill, I haven’t tried tying my own leaders yet but would like to. The knots in the leader seem to be the biggest drawback.  When I went with guide on Henry’s Fork, he set up "our rig" with a set up he tied himself.  I wished I had paid closer attention to what he had done.  We had a full day of great fishing and even for us rookies we could make decent casts (albeit not very far casts).  I buy the pre-made leaders and tie a tippet on the end.  They work well enough but the presentation is poor about half the time.  I’ve tinkered with cutting off certain parts and adding tippet where I think it might work better.  This trial and error approach does not always produce great results. I don’t get out as often as I like so I like to make the best of it when I do. I mostly fish high mountain lakes and as you probably know conditions can change rather quickly. If the day starts out warm and sunny, the leader has some nice flex to it.  Have the sun go behind the clouds and the wind kick up the leader gets stiff and my tippet will wrap around it like a rope on a tether ball pole.   Of course, that’s when the fishing starts to get hot and I’m there with a mess on the end of my fly line. Thanks, Eric

Response:

Question:

I know this isn’t the right group to post this on, but I’m too impatient to go through the hassle of subscribing to another newsgroup just for one (for now) question.  And a lot of you do regreational flying, so might be more familiar with this issue. I have read FAR 73 here: http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_14/14cfr73_00.html and cannot find where it describes, specifies, or even implies what sorts of areas are restricted or prohibited.  Am I missing something? This came up in a discussion at work on fishing remote lakes.  The fisherman in question thinks it’s illegal to fly in to certain remote lakes, say in designated wilderness areas, wildlife refuges, National parks, etc.  I think he’s right, but where can I see what specifically is allowed, and what areas specifically are restricted or prohibited? David

Response:

That information is depicted graphically on the aviation charts, and temporary restrictions are published in the NOTAMS (notices to airmen). Best regards, Rob Housman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know this isn’t the right group to post this on, but I’m too impatient to go through the hassle of subscribing to another newsgroup just for one (for now) question.  And a lot of you do regreational flying, so might be more familiar with this issue. I have read FAR 73 here: http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_14/14cfr73_00.html and cannot find where it describes, specifies, or even implies what sorts of areas are restricted or prohibited.  Am I missing something? This came up in a discussion at work on fishing remote lakes.  The fisherman in question thinks it’s illegal to fly in to certain remote lakes, say in designated wilderness areas, wildlife refuges, National parks, etc.  I think he’s right, but where can I see what specifically is allowed, and what areas specifically are restricted or prohibited? David

Response:

Check with the manageing agency for the area you want to fly into.  The BLM, Forest Service, etc.  These governmental agencies set the regs for use within their holdings.  I don’t think the FAA has an interest in your question. To partially answer though, no motorized vehicles or even bicycles are allowed in designated USFS wilderness areas.  This would include aircraft landing or taking off.  Some refuges are restricted, some aren’t, an example being some located in Alaska.  Anyway, for specific restrictions, check with the managment.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know this isn’t the right group to post this on, but I’m too impatient to go through the hassle of subscribing to another newsgroup just for one (for now) question.  And a lot of you do regreational flying, so might be more familiar with this issue. I have read FAR 73 here: http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_14/14cfr73_00.html and cannot find where it describes, specifies, or even implies what sorts of areas are restricted or prohibited.  Am I missing something? This came up in a discussion at work on fishing remote lakes.  The fisherman in question thinks it’s illegal to fly in to certain remote lakes, say in designated wilderness areas, wildlife refuges, National parks, etc.  I think he’s right, but where can I see what specifically is allowed, and what areas specifically are restricted or prohibited? David

Response:

Question:

OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to

share SNIPPEDED FOR BREVITY Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister

I just love a thinkin’ man! Op

Response:

Me too, I think it’s a good idea! Hans van der Stroom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share SNIPPEDED FOR BREVITY Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister I just love a thinkin’ man! Op

Response:

OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share SNIPPEDED FOR BREVITY Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister I just love a thinkin’ man! Op

Shit Op, even a blind pig will find an acorn eventually. Frank Church in Elkhart, IN bassbugr AT yahoo dot com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -}<((((o ~~~ }<((((o ~~~ }<((((o ~~~ }<(((o

Response:

will other suckers for punishment be able to tie in both groups?…just about done my flies for this round by the way…will send them off next week… Eugene

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share SNIPPEDED FOR BREVITY Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister I just love a thinkin’ man! Op Shit Op, even a blind pig will find an acorn eventually. Frank Church in Elkhart, IN bassbugr AT yahoo dot com }<((((o ~~~ }<((((o ~~~ }<((((o ~~~ }<(((o

Response:

will other suckers for punishment be able to tie in both groups?…just about done my flies for this round by the way…will send them off next week… Eugene

….well, right off the top of my bald head Eugene I don’t see why not…we might just give that a try and see how it works. At least those who don’t mind tying a bunch of flies will have a shot at it.  I’ll hold that thought till 2003. Frank Church

Response:

OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share an idea I have about *future* Great Fly Swaps.

**Snipped a great plan** Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister

Sounds like a good idea to me o’ Master Swapmeister Obi-wan Church! Jeff

Response:

Sounds like a great idea. I am new to the group and new to fly fishing. I plan to start tying this spring and would loved to have participated. Maybe I can get in on it next time. -wayne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share an idea I have about *future* Great Fly Swaps. It pains me to have to turn away folks that want to be a part of it, and this year at least 5 didn’t make it and maybe more that just gave up. I think (and most would agree) that tying 40 flies is just about the max acceptable.(except for those experts who can whip out 40 in an afternoon)  So here is what I propose for future swaps…Let *everyone* sign-up, no limit. Then when the dust settles in a few days I can split the number of tyers right down the middle and wind up with 2 groups of around 20 or so. Then each half would tie for their group….this would then eliminate the cap on the number of tyers and nobody would have to tie more flies than just their group. (except me of course, being a glutton for punishment..I would tie the total number of both groups) Nothing else would be changed, just send ‘em in to me and I’ll divvy up the flies according to the group you are in. The Great Fly Swap will *always* commence on Jan 1st, and after the 2 groups have been established, a time limit will be announced as to when the flies are to be in to me. Any comments, questions will be entertained. Criticisms will be shitcanned immediately. :-] Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister

Response:

just about done my flies for this round by the way…will send them off next week… Eugene

Show off!

Response:

The size twenty group sounds good.  I had trouble this year tying 40 flys of the same pattern, no two of which were alike. Lou

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share an idea I have about *future* Great Fly Swaps. It pains me to have to turn away folks that want to be a part of it, and this year at least 5 didn’t make it and maybe more that just gave up. I think (and most would agree) that tying 40 flies is just about the max acceptable.(except for those experts who can whip out 40 in an afternoon)  So here is what I propose for future swaps…Let *everyone* sign-up, no limit. Then when the dust settles in a few days I can split the number of tyers right down the middle and wind up with 2 groups of around 20 or so. Then each half would tie for their group….this would then eliminate the cap on the number of tyers and nobody would have to tie more flies than just their group. (except me of course, being a glutton for punishment..I would tie the total number of both groups)  Nothing else would be changed, just send ‘em in to me and I’ll divvy up the flies according to the group you are in. The Great Fly Swap will *always* commence on Jan 1st, and after the 2 groups have been established, a time limit will be announced as to when the flies are to be in to me. Any comments, questions will be entertained. Criticisms will be shitcanned immediately. :-] Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister

Response:

The size twenty group sounds good.  I had trouble this year tying 40 flys of the same pattern, no two of which were alike. Lou

Lou…. no problem, we only see one fly…. who is to know what the other 40 look like… <g Frank, is this 20 quantity retroactive? <g Tight Lines, –Walt Fly Fishing NC & more… http://www.ezflyfish.com http://www.wilsoncreekoutfitters.com

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Lou…. no problem, we only see one fly…. who is to know what the other 40 look like… <g Frank, is this 20 quantity retroactive? <g Tight Lines, –Walt Fly Fishing NC & more… http://www.ezflyfish.com

Too late Walt, wished I had thought of it sooner tho. Frank

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YOU!  WILL TIE THIS FLY!!!!! Frank Church Me too, I think it’s a good idea! Hans van der Stroom

not

Response:

Frank how about a 2nd Swap ? … Say 20-30 people, around March 15, call it March Madness or something. Start with those who don’t make the Jan 1 list, then open up to those who can’t get enough pain (like me) q8-) Gary         I tie, I fly, so I buy, …therefor I’m broke. OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share an idea I have about *future* Great Fly Swaps. It pains me to have to turn away folks that want to be a part of it, and this year at least 5 didn’t make it and maybe more that just gave up.

Snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any comments, questions will be entertained. Criticisms will be shitcanned immediately. :-] Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister

Response:

Frank how about a 2nd Swap ? … Say 20-30 people, around March 15, call it March Madness or something.

We have a volunteer swapmeister!

Response:

Frank how about a 2nd Swap ? … Say 20-30 people, around March 15, call it March Madness or something. Start with those who don’t make the Jan 1 list, then open up to those who can’t get enough pain (like me) q8-) Gary

…..sounds like a reasonable suggestion Gary, but for me I’d just as soon get it over and done with in the first part of the winter. Beginning in March, a good many of our folks are starting to think seriously about going fishing after the enforced time-out thru the winter months…me for example. Now, if anyone else wants to take that on, be my guest.  After the dust settles from the Great Fly Swap (maybe I oughta copyright that :-] )  I’m ready to move on to something else, like getting my boat ready and haunting the local lakes here for ice-out. Glad to see someone else is in to pain too. :-  Seems to me that splitting the total number of tyers into two groups in Jan. might be the better choice. Several agreed with me, and no criticisms were allowed anyway so I had nothing but positive feedback. (smiley implied here) Frank I’m not broke so much from fishing stuff, but I have a high-maintenance wife and a cat that demands top of the line kitty food.

Response:

OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share an idea I have about *future* Great Fly Swaps.

Gee Frank, that’s such a good idea, I’m glad I though of it.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share an idea I have about *future* Great Fly Swaps. Gee Frank, that’s such a good idea, I’m glad I though of it.  :-) Joe F.

If you’re saying you thought of it first, I’m not surprised. And if you mentioned it I either didn’t see it or have forgotten already. *That* doesn’t surprise me!  Let’s give credit where credit is due, thank you Joe. Frank the plagiarizer Church

Response:

And if you mentioned it I either didn’t see it or have forgotten already. *That* doesn’t surprise me!

Actually, that’s how I’d set up the ground rules for the DDFS; but since folks weren’t exactly beating down the door for that one, implementation of that scheme never came into play; and it was (quite appropriately) forgotten.   I’m not due any credit, just having a little smile.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

I’m not due any credit, just having a little smile.  :-)

Of course, the *first* one to think of that was… <g — Charlie…

Response:

What am I supposed to think of this kind of reactions to what appears to be a rather normal answer to a rather normal question, Mr. Gehrke? Did good old Alois finally got his hands on you? Hans van der Stroom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – YOU!  WILL TIE THIS FLY!!!!! Frank Church Me too, I think it’s a good idea! Hans van der Stroom not

Response:

What am I supposed to think of this kind of reactions to what appears to be a rather normal answer to a rather normal question, Mr. Gehrke? Did good old Alois finally got his hands on you? Hans van der Stroom

I’m glad you thought of that Hans.  Perhaps? George Von Gehrke "the Baron of Roff"

Response:

Gehrke writes: George Von Gehrke "the Baron of Roff"

You misspelled moron. Pirate

Response:

Gehrke writes: George Von Gehrke "the Baron of Roff" You misspelled moron. Excuse me.  It’s spelled "LaCourse"

George Gehrke Pirate Stomper

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Charlie Choc wrote… I’m not due any credit, just having a little smile.  :-) Of course, the *first* one to think of that was… <g

We all know how that one goes….. http://makeashorterlink.com/?F2722174 — Warren Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

Response:

OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share an idea I have about *future* Great Fly Swaps. It pains me to have to turn away folks that want to be a part of it, and this year at least 5 didn’t make it and maybe more that just gave up. I think (and most would agree) that tying 40 flies is just about the max acceptable.(except for those experts who can whip out 40 in an afternoon)  So here is what I propose for future swaps…Let *everyone* sign-up, no limit. Then when the dust settles in a few days I can split the number of tyers right down the middle and wind up with 2 groups of around 20 or so. Then each half would tie for their group….this would then eliminate the cap on the number of tyers and nobody would have to tie more flies than just their group. (except me of course, being a glutton for punishment..I would tie the total number of both groups)  Nothing else would be changed, just send ‘em in to me and I’ll divvy up the flies according to the group you are in. The Great Fly Swap will *always* commence on Jan 1st, and after the 2 groups have been established, a time limit will be announced as to when the flies are to be in to me. Any comments, questions will be entertained. Criticisms will be shitcanned immediately. :-] Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister

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Question:

But, Roy, none of the planes I fly starts with a 7.  :-)

I fly a 7AC, but not in IMC.

Response:

Many responses to your question have been good and logical, but don’t consider the confusion and disorientation that can come with suddenly seeing indications on the instruments that don’t make sense or don’t agree with what you expected.

I was hoping you’d pipe in here.  It was my confusion in a holding pattern up there with you that got me searching for some way to call time out–or the closest thing I can get to that.  That’s probably why you were able to address the question so poignantly despite me not knowing how to ask it. Anyway, thanks.  You da man. — Jim

Response:

7ECA…. Yours is cooler though (Champ, right?) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But, Roy, none of the planes I fly starts with a 7.  :-) I fly a 7AC, but not in IMC.

Response:

Makes sense to me – but best laid plans are sometimes difficult to follow in the soup. Flying the missed assumes situational awareness.Yes, I could have done my best guess as per the DG – but that would have meant a lot more figuring things out. Seemed prudent to talk to ATC and get back on track. Having said that, the missed was close to coming into play, so your scenario would have been the next step.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, I am relatively new to IFR, but I am confused why this would be a problem. Even if all your radios and navs spin around and spit pea soup, you have a heading, and even having the DG go out leaves you with compass heading. If things go seriously wrong, I would hopefully remember the heading, stop the drop if on approach, and go missed if required. It seems to me the neat thing about a missed is you can do that with a heading only if required. I was never lost, but I was once confused in that my two CDI’s gave different info on the same approach. I called for ATC, explained the situation, got vectors and finally figured out which CDI was messed up. (Turned out to be interference between avionics equipment) I have to admit it was disconcerting to be IMC and get two completely different indications from the CDIs on an ILS, but ATC was very helpful. — True knowledge is what you learn after you know everything.

Response:

You probably won’t need to ask.  If you’re operating in a radar environment, your first indication that there’s a significant difference between where you’re heading and where you should be heading will likely be a query from the controller.

I can attest to that.  When I had my DG failure in IMC, the first hint I had that anything was wrong was a "say heading?" query from NY Approach. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost.

Tell that to the crew that flew a 757 into the mountains near Cali, Columbia.  Tell that to the crew of the flight that wandered into Soviet airspace by accident and got shot down.  Tell that to the crew that flew a perfectly good 747 into the ground in Guam. Never think it can’t happen to you. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

Good point, and a good reminder. -Ryan Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost. Tell that to the crew that flew a 757 into the mountains near Cali, Columbia.  Tell that to the crew of the flight that wandered into Soviet airspace by accident and got shot down.  Tell that to the crew that flew a perfectly good 747 into the ground in Guam. Never think it can’t happen to you. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

– Ryan Ferguson Pitts S-2C N312PS Twin Comanche 8259Y My flying pictures are at: http://www.fergworld.com

Response:

Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost. Tell that to the crew that flew a 757 into the mountains near Cali, Columbia.  Tell that to the crew of the flight that wandered into Soviet airspace by accident and got shot down.  Tell that to the crew that flew a perfectly good 747 into the ground in Guam. Never think it can’t happen to you.

But, Roy, none of the planes I fly starts with a 7.  :-) Matt

Response:

On the other hand, if I was at 2,000 in the L.A. basin and lost and had any doubt about the terrain, I would climb like hell while asking for help from the controller.  Better to bust a clearance than wind up flying into a mountain. The probably with this is then you might eat an airliner.

Given a choice between a possible CFIT and a possible mid-air, I’ll risk the mid-air any day.  Not only are the mountains bigger targets than the airliners, they also don’t have TCAS. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

<snip of exactly the type of stuff I was looking for but wasn’t sure exactly how to ask–You, too, Ron Non-Critical emergency: An emergency such that no matter what action you

take, you will die. Snicker.  Filed in mental "quotable quotes" folder. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

As the other posters have pointed out, the ‘where’, ‘when’, and ‘how’ of lost is a big factor.   Assuming you have at least a NAV/AID available this simply shouldn’t happen at least in the big picture.   If you don’t have it sorted out soon (especially if you are on ‘own nav’) you better ask on the radio! Here’s something I used to do to sharpen my ‘where the hell am I’ skills… I would call up a regional map on my IFR sim (IFT Pro was great for this). Close my eyes and click the mouse to position my A/C on some unforseen random location and then start up the sim, plane in the air, IMC.  Since I new generally where I was (within a 100 miles) I’d start dialing up the VOR’s trying to fix my position.  Of course this is child’s play with a VOR/DME but get’s more challenging if you resign yourself to just the ADF or just the DME.  One of my instructors was so good about teaching VOR/CDI tricks (will this heading intercept the 245 radial?  How close to the station are you?) that getting lost with a working NAV/AID just doesn’t seem likely to me anymore.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Most of these issues rely on the principle that if you are headed accurately from a know position, then suddenly switching to a much less accurate form of navigation will result in a badly off position only given a lot of time. Ie., you know your heading, should have a good idea when your next fix eta is, you aren’t going to be far off even if murphy suddenly sticks you back into a dark cockpit with only a flashlight aimed at the compass and your watch. No matter what the situation, radio working or not, is to perform what you were cleared to do. Thats what you last knew, thats what they expect. Circling, doing something odd, whatever, its just going to make the situation worse, IMHO. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

– True knowledge is what you learn after you know everything.

Response:

I was never lost, but I was once confused in that my two CDI’s gave different info on the same approach. I called for ATC, explained the situation, got vectors and finally figured out which CDI was messed up. (Turned out to be interference between avionics equipment) I have to admit it was disconcerting to be IMC and get two completely different indications from the CDIs on an ILS, but ATC was very helpful.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost.  The needles are pretty hard to misinterpret.  If you lose electrical you get on your handheld and start talking to ATC. Ryan http://www.fergworld.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

If I would unsure I would just ask.  It’s that ten second position check. "Center, Cessna 1234, verify that you who me 10 miles from Podunk VOR on the 120 radial." jerry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Whoops, should be you SHOW me 10 miles….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If I would unsure I would just ask.  It’s that ten second position check. "Center, Cessna 1234, verify that you who me 10 miles from Podunk VOR on the 120 radial." jerry Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over?

ATC would probably not appreciate an unannounced circle and ascent. And, obviously, pulling over isn’t an option.  I’m guessing this is a troll question, but I’ll give it a serious answer anyway. I’ve never had this happen, but it if did, I’d immediately confess to ATC that I’d lost situational awareness and ask them where I was! Matt

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What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?

You probably won’t need to ask.  If you’re operating in a radar environment, your first indication that there’s a significant difference between where you’re heading and where you should be heading will likely be a query from the controller. Immediately circle and ascend?

I suppose it depends where you are.  If you’re in Alaska and in uncontrolled airspace climbing probably won’t make your situation any worse.  In controlled airspace over Iowa it’s a different story. Call "time out" and pull over?

Are you flying a helicopter?  Beware of the traffic behind you.

Response:

On the other hand, if I was at 2,000 in the L.A. basin and lost and had any doubt about the terrain, I would climb like hell while asking for help from the controller.  Better to bust a clearance than wind up flying into a mountain.

The probably with this is then you might eat an airliner. Bottom line is life is not good if you loss situational awareness. The penalty for not paying attention while flying in IMC can be death.  Serious stuff.

Response:

Again, I am relatively new to IFR, but I am confused why this would be a problem. Even if all your radios and navs spin around and spit pea soup, you have a heading, and even having the DG go out leaves you with compass heading. If things go seriously wrong, I would hopefully remember the heading, stop the drop if on approach, and go missed if required. It seems to me the neat thing about a missed is you can do that with a heading only if required. I was never lost, but I was once confused in that my two CDI’s gave different info on the same approach. I called for ATC, explained the situation, got vectors and finally figured out which CDI was messed up. (Turned out to be interference between avionics equipment) I have to admit it was disconcerting to be IMC and get two completely different indications from the CDIs on an ILS, but ATC was very helpful.

– True knowledge is what you learn after you know everything.

Response:

Well, there are always those time/distance exercises you had to learn: go wandering off the airway while you’re lost so you can figure out how far it is to the next checkpoint. Personally, if I had a radio aid to use for that I would just fly to the radio aid and not give a dead rat how far away it is. Basically, lost in IMC is done the same way as lost in VMC: figure out your last know position, check your heading and time from there to approximate your current position, check it against radio aids. Maintain last assigned altitude and heading. Call for radar vectors. Climbing in circles is likely to induce vestibular problems, so don’t do that. If you’ve lost your electrics, backup radios and handheld GPS can be of some help. Again, check your last known position, use your heading and time to approximate where you are now. Check that against MEAs/MORAs. Climb in a straight line, if necessary, and follow IFR lost comm procedures. If you really haven’t got a clue and no help is available, consider other options. If you know you are near a coastline, for example, consider flying out over the ocean and gingerly descending until you can see the water, turn around and fly back to the coast. Use a deliberate offset so that you know you are coming in south, for example, of a known point on the coastline, then follow the coastline up to that point. If you are in a single engine plane in mountainous terrain, IMC at night, lost, and low on fuel, you have what is called a non-critical emergency. Critical emergency: An emergency such that if prompt action is not taken, you will die. Non-Critical emergency: An emergency such that no matter what action you take, you will die.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up!

Consider two kinds of lost.  One is being unable to accurately locate your position due to complete electrical failure or some such.  For that kind of case, I carry a handheld GPS in my flight bag (with spare batteries), and I turn it on every week or so for 30 minutes or so to let it update its almanac.  The unit is always kept where I can reach it and retrieve it without looking.  I also carry a handheld radio.  With this, I can find my lat/long quickly and can then dead reckon toward a letdown point, using the GPS occasionally to refine my navigation.  I have practiced this. The other kind of lost is a temporary loss of positional awareness during a busy instrument approach or even a hold.  Many responses to your question have been good and logical, but don’t consider the confusion and disorientation that can come with suddenly seeing indications on the instruments that don’t make sense or don’t agree with what you expected. This can lead to panic.  In some terrain you just can’t keep flying while you try to figure it out or wait for ATC to call you and ask what the hell is going on, you need to do something fast.  I have been developing the habit of defining my "lost" procedure before entering an approach.  It consists of a heading and an altitude, and I jot it down on my kneeboard and draw a square around it.  The heading is the final aproach course and the altitude is the MSA.  If I get "lost", meaning I have lost positional awareness of exactly where I am relative to the procedure and am confused, my default procedure is to climb like hell and turn to the FAC.  Then I can call ATC and ask for vectors for the missed if I’m still lost.  Not a perfect solution nor a universal one, but it is something, and seems to me to be better than doing nothing and flying into a mountain. This kind of "lost" results from a breakdown or interruption of the mental processes required to execute a procedure while keeping the "picture" in your mind.  If you suddenly "lose the picture", especially while in a maneuver, the resulting disorientation and confusion negates recovery procedures based on application of logical thought processes.  If you can stabilize your situation, such as by just flying a heading, the ability to think logically can return quickly, and then you can puzzle out the problem, but you don’t always have time to do that.  I have heard that this mental lapse of "losing the picture" happens to controllers also. I got "lost" in a hold once in IMC.  I was flying a MAHP with GPS, there was a hefty wind, I got a little off track flying inbound to the holding fix, and somehow misjudged when to start my turn.  When I rolled out of the turn, I couldn’t immediately make any sense of the indications and got confused. I was "lost" in the sense of not knowing where I was relative to the fix. Not good.  In a hold, my default is to fly the outbound heading. I think Jim’s question, which is similar to one posted by Mike Horowitz a while back, is a good one.  Especially for inexperienced instrument pilots, or insufficiently proficient ones, there will be times, however infrequent, when confusion sets in, and it is worthwhile to think through these things and try to come up with no-brain default actions that, while not perfect, are likely to be better than doing nothing. I’m sure some people are so cool and competent that they never get lost or never get confused or panicked when something goes wrong, and I envy them. I have been lost in IMC, in the second sense and on an approach, and it is about the scariest thing I could imagine.  When that happened, I realized that I had to have some simple no-brain procedure to do something if I temporarily lost my thinking power due to confusion.  Otherwise, I would do nothing for a while, perhaps too long. Stan Prevost

Response:

Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over?

I’ve never been lost in IMC, but if I were, it would depend where I was flying.  If I was over Iowa at 5,000 I would tell the controller I was lost and get some help.  On the other hand, if I was at 2,000 in the L.A. basin and lost and had any doubt about the terrain, I would climb like hell while asking for help from the controller.  Better to bust a clearance than wind up flying into a mountain. BTW, how lost is "lost"?  A mile off course?  A hundred miles?  You’re never totally lost, I mean, you know what state your in, right?  :) So you’ll have some basic info about the terrain.   If you get lost while having a total electrical failure you’re on your own, so you better not be lost.  If you are, then use your head and think about the weather and terrain.  Where is the VMC?  Where is the low terrain?  Around here, the lowest terrain is over the ocean.  If I had to get down and had no nav or com capability and widespread low IMC that I couldn’t climb on top of, I’d fly out over the ocean and descend until I was below the clouds, then scud run my way back to the coast.   Of course, with a handheld nav/com, a handheld GPS, extra batteries, etc. I doubt it would ever come to that.  A lot of things would have to break at the same time that the weather was at its absolute worst and I’d have to get lost on top of it all. There are a lot of little failure modes that they don’t necessarily teach you about when you’re training for the instrument rating.  But you learn enough to be able to use your head and make educated decisions when fate (or your own idiocy) throws you a curveball. –Ron

Response:

Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

So long as my  navigation equipment is working, I won’t get lost in IMC. I worry about aircraft control, getting into a steep bank or something, but getting lost is not something that has ever come close to happening. IT is not impossible, if I was out of radio comm and lost my navigation both GPS and VOR (or out of range of VOR). But it’s not likely. Lots of other more likely things to worry about. So long as I am in radar contact and have radio contact, and have Gyros I am OK. Most important navigation equipment is a radio, IMHO. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Question:

Danke. Any in striking distance of Portland (left coast)?

Response:

Danke. Any in striking distance of Portland (left coast)?

There will be for sure if you decide to host one. Regards, Jeff

Response:

Great responses, all. Wunnerfully creative minds at work (??) here. Now, anyone care to answer the original question itself? Thanks!

Response:

Great responses, all. Wunnerfully creative minds at work (??) here. Now, anyone care to answer the original question itself? Thanks!

I did sort of.   Conclave – 1. a private meeting.  2a. the assembly of cardinals for the election of a pope.   2b. the meeting place for the conclave. (Hint:  It ain’t meaning #2) Now the new definition, a ROFFian meeting of assorted reprobates, alocholics, and womanizers in a location near water known to hold trout. HTH Peter

Response:

"Clave" is an abbreviation of "Conclave", which is usually taken to mean the gathering of cardinals who assemble to elect a new pope. It also means any closed gathering. As far as ROFF is concerned, a clave is a get together where hopefully fun is had by all, and some fishing is done. TL MC — "If you have tried everything you know, and nothing works, then perhaps it is time to accept that you don

Question:

I’ve got to tell ya, the dogs haven’t been real happy with me and my broken foot. No more rousing games of soccer, it takes me forever to even get up or down the stairs or across the room. We’re playing other games, but I’ve got to be careful for quite a while yet. Walking aross the yard is a trick; lumpy ground is really hard to deal with. And I was the one who played with the dogs the most. Sigh. So the other day, I’m upstairs and I hear the door open (must be husband coming in) and then I hear strange dog sounds. So I hobble downstairs and I see this strange tangle of dogs and a human on the floor sort of rolling around in a ball. They heard me and they suddenly all stopped and looked at me, my husband looking the most sheepish of all. Silly hub’n puppies!

Response:

nice to know he can step in A fun doggy game for sitting humans is the cat intended fishing pole game  a stick a string (preferably strong ones with a sproingy stick) and a soft toy to fly around ahead of the galloping herd can be lots of fun the dog that catches it has to fetch and give so the game can continue Nancy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got to tell ya, the dogs haven’t been real happy with me and my broken foot. No more rousing games of soccer, it takes me forever to even get up or down the stairs or across the room. We’re playing other games, but I’ve got to be careful for quite a while yet. Walking aross the yard is a trick; lumpy ground is really hard to deal with. And I was the one who played with the dogs the most. Sigh. So the other day, I’m upstairs and I hear the door open (must be husband coming in) and then I hear strange dog sounds. So I hobble downstairs and I see this strange tangle of dogs and a human on the floor sort of rolling around in a ball. They heard me and they suddenly all stopped and looked at me, my husband looking the most sheepish of all. Silly hub’n puppies!

Response:

nice to know he can step in A fun doggy game for sitting humans is the cat intended fishing pole game a stick a string (preferably strong ones with a sproingy stick) and a soft toy to fly around ahead of the galloping herd can be lots of fun the dog that catches it has to fetch and give so the game can continue Nancy

I think it’s harder on me than on the dogs. WAAAAAAAAAA! I wanna go out and play doggie soccer! <snivel donna

Response:

Question:

I am planning a backpacking/flyfishing trip into Isle Royale National Park (Michigan, Lake Superior) and my problem is that I am only familiar with types of hatches in my own area.  What types of flies tend to bring success on the island itself during mid- to late August?

You probably won’t need to worry about "hatches" per se up there.  I grew up fishing the mainland trout streams around there and never saw much in the way of concentrated hatch activivty.  Stick to attractors on the Island. You should consider a means of fishing the big lake if at all possible. The Island is home to shoreline -cruising Brookies called Coasters – they can be pretty good sized fish.  You’ll also run into Rainbows, Pike, and the occasional Redfin Lake Trout. Streamers, bucktails and the like would be a good bet.  I’d take Mickey Finns, Red Trudes, Royal Coachman, Muddlers, Spruces, Black-Nosed Daces, and a local fly Called a Pass Lake.  Wooly Buggers too. Unless you have a thing for Liver Fluke don’t drink the water. Don’t mess with the Moose. Take lots of bug dope.  A head net might not be a bad idea. have fun. </c

Response:

I am planning a backpacking/flyfishing trip into Isle Royale National Park (Michigan, Lake Superior) and my problem is that I am only familiar with types of hatches in my own area.  What types of flies tend to bring success on the island itself during mid- to late August? Todd Hudson                *       "If the thunder don’t get ‘ya,  

Response:

Question:

Hi fellow fishermen: If you got an unusual fish story, I want to hear it.  Please go to my web site at http://www.apc.net/seasidek and e-mail me your fish stories.  I will post them on the web for everyone to see. P.S Tell your fishing friends

Response:

Hello Fellow fishermen If you have an unusual fish story, I want to hear it.  Please go to my web site at http://www.apc.net/seasidek and e-mail me your story.  I will post them on the web for all to see. P.S  Tell all your fishing buddies.

Response:

Dear Fellow Fly Fisher, If you have ever wanted your own place to go to in Florida to enjoy great Saltwater flats Fly Fishing, then check out the WEB site listed below. This Sportsmans club is going to be owned by ten enthusiastic anglers. Your own location in Florida for 1/10th the cost. Check out the site and let me know if you are interested. We have five people so far leaving only five positions open. RL http://www.praxis.net/~riverclub/

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Question:

: What are the pros and cons of the expensive fly lines vs. the lower end : lines.  For example the Cortland 444 lazer vs the 333 lines.  Thanks   There are differences when you compare these two lines. The Cortland 444 is the industry standard fly line. It is offered in many more types and configurations than the 333. The 333 is the predecessor to the 444. The 444 is more supple, longer lasting, and slick than the 333. It also comes with a one year warrenty against failure. My experience with Cortland is that any 444 line returned will be replaced for free. This happened one year at the shop where we had many customers come back with defective lines. We had instructions from Cortland to take back all lines at that time. Their testing showed that they had a bad batch!   There is also a higher performance level with the more expensive lines. I find that they float higher and are easier to cast. The best line Cortland currently has is the 444 LazerLine. It has a textered finish. This line is the most supple, easiest mending, and farthest shooting line of any "general purpose" trout line I have used. Both 333 and 444 are good lines Jon Porter

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What are the pros and cons of the expensive fly lines vs. the lower end lines.  For example the Cortland 444 lazer vs the 333 lines.  Thanks

In my opinion there aren’t many differences between lines that make a huge difference.  Higher priced lines are usually made from better materials(tougher, stronger, self lubricating, Uv resistant, etc.) but the taper really isn’t a measure of "quality".  It all depends on your casting style and requirements.  Some line may better match your technique and give better results (i.e. some people may perfere the same line in double taper vs. weight forward or vice versa).  Your fishing requirements (if they are very specific)  may demand that you must spend the extra money for a higher   end line but that is sometimes the nature of the beast!  Good luck,                         Joshua Haddock

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Count me in as one all in favor of this idea PROVIDED the fly fishing messages weren’t all cross-posted to alt.fishing or r.o.f.  I routinely skip all fly-fishing postings, and would certainly welcome a new place for them!

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How would I know if this newsgroup were set up?  Are alt.fishing and r.o.c. also newsgroups?  Yesterday there was a mention of some kind of private posting.  How does that work?     (New to both flyfishing and internet…)

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Count me in as one all in favor of this idea PROVIDED the fly fishing messages weren’t all cross-posted to alt.fishing or r.o.f.  I routinely skip all fly-fishing postings, and would certainly welcome a new place for them!

 Yes indeed,  here’s my support for just another group, LISTSERV was nice, but like all, well most of them, they just become too popular for the morning reading!…we do have work to do:-)  Steve Drossel

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How would I know if this newsgroup were set up?  Are alt.fishing and r.o.c. also newsgroups?  Yesterday there was a mention of some kind of private posting.  How does that work?     (New to both flyfishing and internet…)

While I’m not new to flyfishing I am new to Internet. Would someone please explain to me, Jessica, and other newcomers how to access Flyfish? Thanks

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WHAT IS THE FLYFISH LIST?      What is the flyfish list? The flyfish list is a worldwide discussion group with flyfishing as the topic.  It is called a list because it is simply a mailing list.  The messages which comprise the discussion are sent as electronic mail (email) to everyone on the mailing list.  If you subscribe to flyfish, your name and computer address will simply be added to the mailing list and you will automatically receive electronic mail messages about flyfishing.      How do I subscribe? To subscribe to the flyfish list, send an email message to: The text of the message should be: subscribe flyfish John Smith (Substitute your name instead of John Smith) It is not necessary to specify a subject for this message.  Be everyone on the list.  The listserv address is used for administrative messages such as subscriptions and is handled automatically by a computer program which controls the list.      How do I get removed from the list? Once subscribed to the list, you may at some point wish to remove yourself from the list.  To do this, send an email message to: The text of the message should be: signoff flyfish (an equivalent command is: unsubscribe flyfish) It is not necessary to specify a subject for this message. Again, please remember to send this message to      How do I post messages? To post a message (to everyone on the list), simply send the message to: Any message mailed to this address will automatically be sent by the listserv program to everyone currently on the mailing list.   It helps to specify a brief, descriptive subject so that the people on the list can read (or delete) their mail efficiently. It also helps to end your message with your name and email address, so that readers may respond to you directly when desired.      How do I reply to a message? To reply to a message, you must first decide whether you want to reply only to the person that posted the message or to everyone on the list.  If you want to reply only to the one person, then do not use the "reply" function in your mail program.  That will of course, result in it being sent to everyone on the list. Instead, send your reply to his or her email address.  This can usually be obtained by examining the message to which you are responding.  Look for a signature at the end of the message or Unfortunately, it is possible that your mail program will remove such non-essential lines from the message header.  Signing your messages with your email address will assist others with this same problem. If you want your reply sent to everyone on the list, then send As with any message sent to this address, it will be distributed to everyone on the list.  It is helpful to specify the same subject, preceeded by "Re:". Most mail programs have a reply function which simplifies the process of replying to a message.  If you reply to a posted message using your reply function, your reply will be sent back distributed to everyone on the list.  This is how most people reply to messages because there is no need to type in the list address or the subject.  This may not work for everyone; in rare cases an overeducated mail program will ferret out the original sender from the header and reply to that person rather than the list, so you may have to do things the old fashioned way.      Why don’t I receive the messages that I post? If you post a message to flyfish, it is sent to everyone on the list except you, the sender.  If you want to receive your own with the following line of text: set flyfish repro Most people prefer to see their own messages sent back to them, if only as confirmation that the message actually was sent out without any difficulties.      I get too much mail from the list.  What can I do? You can get the mail from the list sent to you in digest form.  You will then get one message per day (usually) which contains all of the messages of the day.  Just send the message: set flyfish digests If this is still too much for you, you may wish to signoff the list.     Save these instructions in case this happens to you.      Are old messages archived? Yes, the old messages are archived.  To get a list of archived files containing the text:  index flyfish      How do I get an archived file? containing the text: get flyfish filename (Substitute the name of the file you want to get for filename)      Can I get a list of listserv commands? A short list of listserv commands will be sent to you if you send the message: help      Where else on the internet can I get flyfishing information      and files? Information on other electronic sources of flyfishing information is given in another FAQ file also posted periodically to the flyfish list.      I’m confused.  Where can I get help? If you have difficulties subscribing, resigning, or posting to the flyfish list, please direct your questions to the listowner and not to the list.  There is no need to clutter the mailboxes of subscribers with such questions.  The listowner will be happy to help you. This file is posted periodically to the flyfish list by questions about this file directly to me and not to the list. PS  The listowner and the location of the list will change in the     there is a definite problem with the list.  If you need help, you     A new flyfishing newsgroup should be starting soon.  I have posted     this message so that those of you that want to try the flyfish     list will know how to send commands to listserv (not flyfish),     because it is disruptive to the list to have administrative     messages sent to everyone.  However, if you are interested in     flyfishing, and have usenet access, please help get the new     group started.  Everyone will benefit, especially those that     would rather get their flyfishing fixes through a newsgroup     instead of in their email boxes.

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