Question:

Paint

snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Remember, PVC pipe left in the sun gets brittle, it might help keep them from cracking. http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/

Response:

what about  filling the tubes with foam?  a quick option might be a macroflex type squirt foam that people use for insulation, or what about pool noodles?  ever taken a couple and tied them to make a floating chair? fun stuff.  anyhow, could find some pool noodles and stuff them in the pvc pipes.  whatever… sounds like a fun project. doftya – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hell, I liked the original poster’s original idea – PVC pipe. I’ve seen this done, I know folks locally who made floating duck blinds like that. They used fairly large diameter pipe, and capped the ends with glued-on caps. Easy, strong, effective. Mr. Has A Horrible Headache How about 5 gal. plastic buckets? Any new home under construction that is in the drywall phase will have lots of drywall compound buckets and the lids. Just make sure you ask before you take them! Barrells tend to make the raft ride too high (I built one as a kid). Difficult to climb aboard without a long boarding ladder. For stabililty you need four so that makes a pretty large raft, maybe more than you had in mind.

Response:

Hello.  I am told sometimes making rafts is discussed here.  If not, perhaps some of you can direct me to another newsgroup.  My husband and I want to make a light weight raft for our pond without spending a fortune.  We were thinking of PVC pipe for the bottom as pontoons of sorts.  Any ideas?                 Many Thanks, Becky

Response:

My husband and I want to make a light weight raft for our pond without spending a fortune.  We were thinking of PVC pipe for the bottom as pontoons of sorts.  Any ideas?                Many Thanks, Becky

 Milk jugs and pallets.  Nothing beats free.  Really as for a raft for the pond, only your imagination is the limit since no ones life is really at stake on it. Have fun and play around. http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/

Response:

Unless you can find PVC on the side of the road you will probably find it pretty expensive. You probably need 12" and the caps (expensive too). Another option would be poly drums. Styrofoam blocks are cheaper but there is some ecological concern if they are not encapsulated. If they crumble up the lake will have the pieces floating around for a while. I have seen rafts made with concrete forming (cardboard) tubes but they won’t last very long unless you saturate them with epoxy resin or something.

Response:

Empty beer kegs provide excellent flotation. The best procedure, of course, is to buy them full and empty them during the summer-long "design phase." The raft won’t get built right away, but who’s to care?

Response:

Empty beer kegs provide excellent flotation.

The best procedure, of course, is to buy them full and empty them during the summer-long "design phase."<< — Gould I thought you had to take the empties back. OT Archie Bunker quote: "You can never buy beer – you only rent it."

Response:

We used to make them out of metal 55 gallon barrels. I imagine plastic would be even better nowadays. Cheap, maybe free depending on where you find them. Hello.  I am told sometimes making rafts is discussed here.  If not, perhaps some of you can direct me to another newsgroup.  My husband and I want to make a light weight raft for our pond without spending a fortune.  We were thinking of PVC pipe for the bottom as pontoons of sorts.  Any ideas?                 Many Thanks, Becky

– Keith In the ongoing battle between objects made of fiberglass going tens of miles per hour and the shore going zero miles per hour, the shore has yet to lose.

Response:

You might want to try the newsgroup call " rec.boats.building".  There was a thread there some months back where someone posted a similar question and received a lot of responses to help him calculate the size of pipe needed based on weight and bouyancy needs. BillS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello.  I am told sometimes making rafts is discussed here.  If not, perhaps some of you can direct me to another newsgroup.  My husband and I want to make a light weight raft for our pond without spending a fortune.  We were thinking of PVC pipe for the bottom as pontoons of sorts.  Any ideas?                 Many Thanks, Becky

Response:

Barrells tend to make the raft ride too high (I built one as a kid). Difficult to climb aboard without a long boarding ladder. For stabililty you need four so that makes a pretty large raft, maybe more than you had in mind. To reduce the freeboard, you could let water into the drums to ballast it down. I wouldn’t recomend steel drums, even if your are in a freshwater pond. I learned from experience that drums, once they leak and fill, are amost impossible to get out of even a shallow pond. You can’t drain the water out until you get them on dry land. Have you ever tried to roll a 300 lb drum in mud?? So if you go the drum route, I recommend you get the plastic ones and also get new gaskets for the bungs. The old ones will usually not seal properly. There are some smaller drums in plastic. I think 20 gal., they would be perfect. Around here, some of the marinas float their docks on tires filled with foam. I think they stack about 3 tires and fill them with pour-in-place foam. Then they build the dock on top of a series of these tire floats. They have a funny bounce when you walk on them, especially if they are only two tire floats wide. Those who use the styrofoam floats are required to incapsolate them to prevent the crabs from tearing the foam apart and floating around for eternity. One method was to wrap them in several layers of garbage bags before putting them under the raft or dock. Seems to last for a few years. I strongly recommend that you turn this project over to a couple 12 year old boys with access to a lot of scrap lumber, nails, a hammer and a saw. "And then a future boat builder is born." It would be a shame to take this rare opportunity away from those who deserve that ‘life experience’ and have some adult delute it with technical stuff. — My experience and opinion, FWIW. Steve S/V Good Intentions

Response:

Hello.  I am told sometimes making rafts is discussed here.  If not, perhaps some of you can direct me to another newsgroup.  My husband and I want to make a light weight raft for our pond without spending a fortune.  We were thinking of PVC pipe for the bottom as pontoons of sorts.  Any ideas?                Many Thanks, Becky

Check around to the pool cleaning companies in your area.  They all get many chemicals for swimming pools in these neat, resealable, poly containers that usually just get thrown out.  Start collecting them cheap or free.  You might also check around for a company specializing in 55 gallon drums.  They have many usable discards you might find just right for your float.  We used to weld them together and make pontoon boats out of them….two lines of 55 gal oil drums welded together into pontoons with the front end one bent up into a "bow" so it would pass through the water smoothly….(c; Larry

Response:

How about 5 gal. plastic buckets? Any new home under construction that is in the drywall phase will have lots of drywall compound buckets and the lids. Just make sure you ask before you take them! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Barrells tend to make the raft ride too high (I built one as a kid). Difficult to climb aboard without a long boarding ladder. For stabililty you need four so that makes a pretty large raft, maybe more than you had in mind.

Response:

The lid seals are seldom reuseable. From my experience, the gasket pulls out upon intial removal of the lid. However you can purchase new lids for a couple bucks a the home improvement store. Good suggestion. Steve s/v Good Intentions

Response:

How about 5 gal. plastic buckets?  Any new home under construction that is in

the drywall phase will have lots of drywall compound buckets and the lids.<< — Kelly Wouldn’t you need to seal the lids on with adhesive?

Response:

How about 5 gal. plastic buckets?  Any new home under construction that is in the drywall phase will have lots of drywall compound buckets and the lids.<< — Kelly Wouldn’t you need to seal the lids on with adhesive?

Silly-cone caulk would work. db

Response:

The problem with the plastic buckets is that they will be toast if left in the sun for any time.  After a few months in the sun, you can break the edges of your typical "pickle bucket" with your fingers.  Most marine supply store sell rectangular sealed poly boxes with UV stabilized plastic.  They are made to serve as floats for docks and such.  Those would work, and they even have grooves and eye-holes for attaching together or securing to the wooden dock. BillS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How about 5 gal. plastic buckets? Any new home under construction that is in the drywall phase will have lots of drywall compound buckets and the lids. Just make sure you ask before you take them! Barrells tend to make the raft ride too high (I built one as a kid). Difficult to climb aboard without a long boarding ladder. For stabililty you need four so that makes a pretty large raft, maybe more than you had in mind.

Response:

Not the plastic buckets I have around here (contractor plaster pails). These things are like an ex-wife, they never go away. I’ve had a couple sitting outside in the weather and sun for over 6 years to water my dog (pails, not ex-wives).  I just gave one a big kick yesterday because it was in my way (pail, not ex-wife). I have other sitting around with drain holes and filled with scrap lead. Even the handles allow me to lift them (albeit, not very high or far). I’d say there pretty tough and enduring. It’s the lids that never seem to last if  you can get them with the pails. (now if the ex-wife came with a lid, maybe I could shut her up also.) — My experience and opinion, FWIW. Steve S/V Good Intentions

Response:

Hell, I liked the original poster’s original idea – PVC pipe. I’ve seen this done, I know folks locally who made floating duck blinds like that. They used fairly large diameter pipe, and capped the ends with glued-on caps. Easy, strong, effective. Mr. Has A Horrible Headache

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How about 5 gal. plastic buckets? Any new home under construction that is in the drywall phase will have lots of drywall compound buckets and the lids. Just make sure you ask before you take them! Barrells tend to make the raft ride too high (I built one as a kid). Difficult to climb aboard without a long boarding ladder. For stabililty you need four so that makes a pretty large raft, maybe more than you had in mind.

Response:

Not the plastic buckets I have around here (contractor plaster pails). These things are like an ex-wife, they never go away.

Ppppfffftttt… Damn…grumble grumble keyboard grumble… http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/

Response:

There was discussion on building pontoon boats for one-man fishing floats out of 12" PVC pipe on rec.outdoors.fishing.fly maybe a year ago.  One of the regulars on that group regularly fishes the Baltic one one of these craft.  He STRONGLY recommends filling the pontoons with stryrofoam.  

  That sounds like a real good idea.  It’ll also strengthen them.  Remember, PVC pipe left in the sun gets brittle, it might help keep them from cracking. http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/

Response:

Well, what wonderful imaginative ideas!  We are so very grateful for the great response.  Many thanks.   Becky & Roy

Response:

We used to pay $5 for the used poly drums from the barrel supplier.  They have some that are watertight, but can not store certain items in.  So they sell them cheap. Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello.  I am told sometimes making rafts is discussed here.  If not, perhaps some of you can direct me to another newsgroup.  My husband and I want to make a light weight raft for our pond without spending a fortune.  We were thinking of PVC pipe for the bottom as pontoons of sorts.  Any ideas?                Many Thanks, Becky Check around to the pool cleaning companies in your area.  They all get many chemicals for swimming pools in these neat, resealable, poly containers that usually just get thrown out.  Start collecting them cheap or free.  You might also check around for a company specializing in 55 gallon drums.  They have many usable discards you might find just right for your float.  We used to weld them together and make pontoon boats out of them….two lines of 55 gal oil drums welded together into pontoons with the front end one bent up into a "bow" so it would pass through the water smoothly….(c; Larry

Response:

Agreed, foam-filled would be desirable on a boat.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There was discussion on building pontoon boats for one-man fishing floats out of 12" PVC pipe on rec.outdoors.fishing.fly maybe a year ago.  One of the regulars on that group regularly fishes the Baltic one one of these craft.  He STRONGLY recommends filling the pontoons with stryrofoam.  If the pontoons get holed or otherwise leaky you need something in them to keep them from filling with water and sinking. john message Hell, I liked the original poster’s original idea – PVC pipe. I’ve seen this done, I know folks locally who made floating duck blinds like that. They used fairly large diameter pipe, and capped the ends with glued-on caps. Easy, strong, effective. Mr. Has A Horrible Headache How about 5 gal. plastic buckets? Any new home under construction that is in the drywall phase will have lots of drywall compound buckets and the lids. Just make sure you ask before you take them! Barrells tend to make the raft ride too high (I built one as a kid). Difficult to climb aboard without a long boarding ladder. For stabililty you need four so that makes a pretty large raft, maybe more than you had in mind.

Response:

There was discussion on building pontoon boats for one-man fishing floats out of 12" PVC pipe on rec.outdoors.fishing.fly maybe a year ago.  One of the regulars on that group regularly fishes the Baltic one one of these craft.  He STRONGLY recommends filling the pontoons with stryrofoam.  If the pontoons get holed or otherwise leaky you need something in them to keep them from filling with water and sinking. john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hell, I liked the original poster’s original idea – PVC pipe. I’ve seen this done, I know folks locally who made floating duck blinds like that. They used fairly large diameter pipe, and capped the ends with glued-on caps. Easy, strong, effective. Mr. Has A Horrible Headache How about 5 gal. plastic buckets? Any new home under construction that is in the drywall phase will have lots of drywall compound buckets and the lids. Just make sure you ask before you take them! Barrells tend to make the raft ride too high (I built one as a kid). Difficult to climb aboard without a long boarding ladder. For stabililty you need four so that makes a pretty large raft, maybe more than you had in mind.

Response:

Question:

Tony Knox said in another thread: "Many experienced fishers, who have in their time tried hundreds of different patterns, will carry only half a dozen at any one time." Sounds like a great thread starter…so, what are you carrying in <your fly box these days (if its not unethical to ask…)? riverman

Response:

Tony Knox said in another thread: "Many experienced fishers, who have in their time tried hundreds of different patterns, will carry only half a dozen at any one time." Sounds like a great thread starter…so, what are you carrying in <your fly box these days (if its not unethical to ask…)?

  Clousers, Deceivers, Charlies and some ‘naturals’ based on kicked up   wingsi/bodys. (like the flies at www.successflies.com)   The other box has a few poppers, and a couple of "Standing Yabbies".   http://www.fishnet.com.au/flyswap/flybox/standingyabby.html   That would be 6 styles of fly …   Steve   (Not going to the rever for at least a fortnight

Response:

Tony Knox said in another thread: "Many experienced fishers, who have in their time tried hundreds of different patterns, will carry only half a dozen at any one time." Sounds like a great thread starter…so, what are you carrying in <your fly box these days (if its not unethical to ask…)?

It depends on where I’m fishing.  On my home water, I often just carry a small box on a lanyard with maybe fifty flies in it. On new rivers and especially in new areas I generally wear a loaded vest with LOTS of different flies. Overall, I don’t think you need alot of different patterns, but different sizes and types of flies are important. Willi

Response:

It depends on where I’m fishing.  On my home water, I often just carry a small box on a lanyard with maybe fifty flies in it. On new rivers and especially in new areas I generally wear a loaded vest with LOTS of different flies.

I agree with that. I spend the day fishing on a familiar stream Thursday with a box full of flies–but only ended up using four different patterns and lost no flies. –Steve

Response:

1. Parachute Adams 2. Parachute Hopper 3. Stimulator 4. Pheasant tail 5. Pheasant tail 6. Pheasant tail For the San Juan: 1. Red Larva 24 2. Disco 22 3. KF Emerger 24 4. RS2 22 grey 5. Orange Worm 6. RS2 24 brown

Response:

……what are you carrying in <your fly box these days (if its not unethical to ask…)?

As a one time small scale commercial tier, I not only tied every pattern I could get a picture or recipe for, I also experimented a great deal. I’ve got a vest with a lot of pockets.  It’s always seemed silly to me to carry around a bunch of empty pockets.  Thus, I usually carry anywhere from 5 or 6 to upwards of ten fly boxes crammed full of a huge assortment of flies.  Some of these are so old and have been hidden under other flies for so long that I only see them every couple of years or so.  Every once in a while I waste a couple of hours sorting through the boxes and trying to arrange them according to one scheme or another.  I always give up long before the task is completed, so I have to dig through a number of boxes whenever looking for inspiration in the middle of what appears to be a barren stream. In one pocket (I never remember which one because it changes….apparently of its own will) I keep a box with most of the flies I am likely to use on most outings.  This one contains elk hair caddis, pass lakes, pheasant tail nymphs, picket pin, grhe, maybe some humpies, a couple of wulff variations, foam ants, and hoppers in season.  The others I am fairly likely to use on a more or less regular basis are woolly buggers, woolly worms, mickey finns, hornbergs, and a couple of other oddball streamers and nymphs. Most of the above list account for a small percentage of the fish I catch.  Probably 80% of the trout I catch fall prey to the ehc.  Add the pass lake, foam ants, and hoppers and the total likely comes up to 95%. Woolly buggers, pts, and grhes round it out to virtually 100%. Blue gills are incredible suckers for the pass lake.  Small mouth bass can’t get enough of woolly buggers. Wolfgang and then there’s the hex hatch….of course

Response:

Having just had an opportunity (at the recent roff NOT clave) to review what I carry and what I’m likely to use, I am qualified to comment. There are lessons within this submission. In times long past, I carried one or two small boxes with a few useful flies and caught fish.  Over the past few years, I’ve called Walt and had him get a dozen of this and a dozen of that and load them into an Okuma box or two.  Now, I find that my chest pack is stuffed full of Okuma boxes with all manner of flies.  And the damndest thing, as evidenced by this recent outing, is that Walt now comes to me, saying "you got a sparkly green Wooly Bugger with red eyes and an orange Now, I don’t catch any more fish, I have a sore lumbar region from all of the weight in my pack, my wallet’s empty and the bastid wanted me to leave my remaining beer behind at my departure "so he and Jeff wouldn’t have to go into town for more……". Hell, you thought *you* had friends……. How many flies…..well lemme say *that* ain’t the real question…nossir,….nossir, it ain’t. Tom ……what are you carrying in <your fly box these days (if its not unethical to ask…)?

Response:

8< Now, I don’t catch any more fish, I have a sore lumbar region from all of the weight in my pack, my wallet’s empty and the bastid wanted me to leave my remaining beer behind at my departure "so he and Jeff wouldn’t have to go into town for more……".

now Tom, you know that was justifiable concern for your well-being….. I couldn’t stand the thought of you possibly being arrested for transportin’ across the state. I shouldn’t have been concerned as Big Dale made a trip over to Bryson and picked up some wonderful brews….. Guiness, Bass, some Octos… come to mind….. BTW, despite jeffies energetic attempt, I still have plenty left…… Opie left his brew also…. hmmm, round two? flies….. hmmmmm, here in NC….. adams parachute, don’t leave home without it. a funny aside…. the other day as tommy and i were unpacking a display fixture, the usual foam peanuts also contained these thick dun gray closed cell foam pieces. we were gigglin like school children with the tyin possibilities….. foam bodied adams…etc. i can’t wait to try them out. Big Dale: that sweet little neck you gave me from the fff clave is producin some of the most wonderful yellahammas…. thankee, thankeee, thankeeeeeeeeeeee! –waldo

Response:

so, what are you carrying in <your fly box these days (if its not unethical to ask…)?

Elk Hair Caddis, Yellow and Orange Stimulators, CDC Two Feathers, Gold Ribbed Hare’s Ears, Prince Nymphs. Both nymphs with and without beads, ‘tho the bead heads are generally more productive, IME. That’s almost all of it, except that depending on the time of year I carry a couple of favorite terrestrial patterns like hoppers and beetles. During the coldest part of winter I tie some 22-24 nymphs with black, red, or clear glass bead heads, which are deadly fished at the bottom of a pool with lots of weight and drifted s-l-o-w-l-y. I also like Larva Lace Soft Hackles at different times of the year. So all that exceeds the half dozen or so patterns suggested by the quote, but not by much. If I had to give up all patterns but one, I’d keep the EHC. I catch 75% of my trout in the Smokies and Blue Ridge on them.

Response:

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 Sounds like a great thread starter…so, what are you carrying in <your fly box these days (if its not unethical to ask…)?

Parachute Adams Quill Gordons Prince Nymphs Gold-Ribbed Hare’s Ears Clouser Minnows (useless for trout, wonderful for crappie) Dave’s Hoppers (don’t know why. I’ve never had a take on them) And if I stop in a flyshop for advice, I’ll usually carry a dozen of whatever they recommend. "Gimme a dozen of whatever’s working" or something like. And nothing is unethical unless rw is the one doing it. – — "Armchair warriors often fail, and we’ve been  poisoned by these fairy tales" -Don Henley —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE71VT/rpli/675/DERAjGaAKCCDObehLzMiboUHOXVp7lbbdcuiACgh3/b aqEkwEmhVyvNNbCvsfCbd74= =gslu —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

Response:

What’s in my box today ? None of your damned business… ;{) — The Halfordian Golfer The deceipt ends with the lure.

Response:

What’s in my box today ? None of your damned business… ;{)

Ahhh, T-Bone. You are consistent, if nothing else. I withdraw the question… <g riverman

Response:

What’s in my box today ? None of your damned business… Ahhh, T-Bone. You are consistent, if nothing else. I withdraw the question…

Don’t worry riverman. I think he just didn’t understand the question. If you had instead asked "what’s in your coffee can?" you likely would have got the answer you were looking for. –Steve

Response:

What’s in my box today ? None of your damned business… Ahhh, T-Bone. You are consistent, if nothing else. I withdraw the question… Don’t worry riverman. I think he just didn’t understand the question. If you had instead asked "what’s in your coffee can?" you likely would have got the answer you were looking for.

Really? T-Bone uses a coffeecan to store his flies? How does this work, T-Bone? (And I wasn’t worried. T-Bone is definately the Pike in this pond, and helps keep a nice balanced ecosystem. I’m just fishing on light tackle today.) riverman

Response:

Question:

Can anyone tell me how the Yakima is fishing right now. Any info on its condition would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Response:

Last I heard (Last Saturday) it was very slow fishing. It won’t be long before the yellow stones are out though so fishing should pick up soon! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone tell me how the Yakima is fishing right now. Any info on its condition would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Response:

If you’re lucky you may find a great PMD hatch. Size 18 to 20 compara duns would then work great. Most fish would be a few inches from bank where mayflies congregate in the bushes. If you are unlucky and the river is as high as I think it will be a flashy bead head nymph under a royal wulff may do the trick. Check with Red’s Fly shop in the canyon for up to date info. Good luck Herb

Response:

I’m heading out to the Yakima in about a week and a half.  Can anyone out there give me some information on the fishing conditions, hatches etc. Thanks in advance. RRS

Response:

I’m heading out to the Yakima in about a week and a half.  Can anyone out there give me some information on the fishing conditions, hatches etc. Thanks in advance. RRS

It’s blown and cold right now.  Might be better soon. Call Cooper’s FLy Shop in Ellensburg, WA, 509 area code, for up to date data.  Creekside in Issaquah will have reasonable info, but is further from the river. they’re at 206-392-3800.

Response:

I fished this river last Thursday (the 23rd) and I’m going again this coming Saturday. The river had just blown out and was pretty murky, however I did catch one fish, and they WERE actually out feeding, on what I do not know… I couldn’t make out any discernable hatch. But I caught my fish with a #12 Royal Humpy. They weren’t eating the stones I threw at them. Hopefully the river will be back down to more fishable access by Saturday, otherwise i’ll be doing a lot of hiking… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Anybody been to the Yakima in the last couple of days?  This is my first chance this year.  I’m planning to head up tomorrow.  I’m a wader so hope the flow isn’t up too far yet. BARRY

Response:

Anybody been to the Yakima in the last couple of days?  This is my first chance this year.  I’m planning to head up tomorrow.  I’m a wader so hope the flow isn’t up too far yet. BARRY

Response:

I was there last saturday. The water was in good shape but the fishing was VERY tough. The fishing last friday was said to have been pretty good. I don’t know how sunday was though. With the warm weather we have been having I would expect the water to be iffy. You might check the water levels before you head over. Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anybody been to the Yakima in the last couple of days?  This is my first chance this year.  I’m planning to head up tomorrow.  I’m a wader so hope the flow isn’t up too far yet. BARRY

Response:

Question:

 3.  I have always presumed that the two air bladders which provide a back support on my floatube are ample to at least keep me afloat.   Is this a naive assumption.

It is more likely you will flip upside down and drown than lose all three air bladders. Ernie Harrison

Response:

3.  I have always presumed that the two air bladders which provide a back support on my floatube are ample to at least keep me afloat.  Is this a naive assumption.

I think that the assumption is correct BUT: These tubes are not attached to your body.  That is you have to make sure you can hold on to them one way or another. Maybe more critical is hypo thermia.  If your main flotation fails, the chances are that you are going to get wet.  Depending on conditions and time immersed, this can lead to great trouble. William Buchman

Response:

I already posted this once, but got no responses.  So I’m going to try once more to see if I can get some answers.  If you remember responding to my first post, let me know by e-mail.  This will let me know that for some reason, I am not seeing all of the messages posted to this board.  Thanks                                                            -dnc- Some of the recent posts on float tube and wader safety have really opened my eyes to the issue.  Thanks to all for the fair warning.  But now I have more questions. 1.  The ‘Sea Hunt’ solution:  Remember when scuba diver Mike (Lloyd Bridges) used to save the day with one of those little, autoinflatable ‘balloons’ he kept handy?  Do those devices still exist.  Seems like the perfect solution; non bulky, yet there when you really need it.  Anyone have any knowledge on such devices and how well they work, etc. 2.  If I were to tip over backwards in my floatube as I was exiting the water, it seems like the right thing to do would be to (a) disengage the quick release on the strap that connects the seat to the tube (b) reach up and push the tube away as I slide my feet out of the tube. i.e. I come out of the tube the same way I usually do (except for the fact that I’m upside down).  This seems like the common sense way to do it, but is it the optimal solution when you are in very shallow water (say, just deep enough so you can’t use your arms to push your head above water).   3.  I have always presumed that the two air bladders which provide a back support on my floatube are ample to at least keep me afloat.  Is this a naive assumption. 4.  I forgot, if you do fall into a strong current, you try to keep your feet pointed downstream: correct?  Seems like you have the double problem of keeping your head away from rocks and also trying to keep water out of your waders.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I already posted this once, but got no responses.  So I’m going to try once more to see if I can get some answers.  If you remember responding to my first post, let me know by e-mail.  This will let me know that for some reason, I am not seeing all of the messages posted to this board.  Thanks                                                            -dnc- Some of the recent posts on float tube and wader safety have really opened my eyes to the issue.  Thanks to all for the fair warning.  But now I have more questions. 1.  The ‘Sea Hunt’ solution:  Remember when scuba diver Mike (Lloyd Bridges) used to save the day with one of those little, autoinflatable ‘balloons’ he kept handy?  Do those devices still exist.  Seems like the perfect solution; non bulky, yet there when you really need it.  Anyone have any knowledge on such devices and how well they work, etc. 2.  If I were to tip over backwards in my floatube as I was exiting the water, it seems like the right thing to do would be to (a) disengage the quick release on the strap that connects the seat to the tube (b) reach up and push the tube away as I slide my feet out of the tube. i.e. I come out of the tube the same way I usually do (except for the fact that I’m upside down).  This seems like the common sense way to do it, but is it the optimal solution when you are in very shallow water (say, just deep enough

You can now get CG approved inflatable PFD’s. You should always wear a PFD in your tube. (some places it’s the law) You should ALWAYS wear a belt around the ouside of your waders high enough to prevent water from spilling into them & regulate the amount you take in. Be Safe!! Bill D.  so you can’t use your arms to push your head above water). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 3.  I have always presumed that the two air bladders which provide a back support on my floatube are ample to at least keep me afloat.  Is this a naive assumption. 4.  I forgot, if you do fall into a strong current, you try to keep your feet pointed downstream: correct?  Seems like you have the double problem of keeping your head away from rocks and also trying to keep water out of your waders.

Response:

Question:

Will be in the Boston area this summer, and will probably bring my fly rod with me. Any interesting waters near by?

Hi Andrea.  I’m guessing that you’re doing freshwater?  If so I’d recommend the Squannacook River in Townsend.  Close to Boston there really isn’t much except still water.  Although Jamaica Pond right in the city is heavily stocked and said to be excellent.  Out in Townsend about 45 miles +/- from the city I had an excellent night yesterday. You might call Squannacook River Outfitters in either Groton or Townsend for information.  Enjoy, Bill.

Response:

Will be in the Boston area this summer, and will probably bring my fly rod with me. Any interesting waters near by?

Response:

Will be in the Boston area this summer, and will probably bring my fly rod with me. Any interesting waters near by?

Plenty of great fly fishing.  The big question is what type of fishing are you looking for?  Trout?  Striped Bass?  There’s a big difference in the type of tackle.   My web site has plenty of usefull information and is update 5 times a week with fishing news for New England and more specifically Massachsetts.  http://www.geocities.com/Baja/3297/fishing.htm In short, to answer your question, there’s lots of great fishing.  If you can give us a little more info, I’m sure we can give you better tips. Tight Lines — Mark N. Cahill For E-mail remove the _Remove_This from the reply to address. http://www.geocities.com/Baja/3297

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve read about a trouts field of view and its ability to sense vibration/disturbance through its lateral line. Does anyone know how well a trout can distinguish one object from another? Where I fish there are a lot of boulders and laurel. If I’m wearing subdued clothing and not splashing around, can a trout pick me out from the surrounding terrain? Find a copy of "In the Ring of the Rise" (Vincent Marinaro). More than you’ll ever want to know about trout vision… Cheers! /dave

Hi Dave I sure agree, V.Marinaro explains things very well. I especially remember him explaining about "one" hackle fiber on a pattern making the difference on catching or not catching fish. As I remember the hackle fiber was misplaced and extended over the eye of the hook or some-such. Good tying &… — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

I’ve read about a trouts field of view and its ability to sense vibration/disturbance through its lateral line. Does anyone know how well a trout can distinguish one object from another? Where I fish there are a lot of boulders and laurel. If I’m wearing subdued clothing and not splashing around, can a trout pick me out from the surrounding terrain?

Find a copy of "In the Ring of the Rise" (Vincent Marinaro). More than you’ll ever want to know about trout vision… Cheers! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.       Alpha Server Engineering < < Parker Street Campus            Maynard, Massachusetts   < <        Charter Member of "Curmudgeons Unlimited"       < <<<<<<<<<<<< AMA 548313 <<<<<<<<<<<< Disclaimer: Opinion and content is mine alone, and unlikely             to be shared by my employer, etc…

Response:

I am of the belief that if I can see a fish, the actual fish spots ‘n all, not shadows or riseforms, then they can definately see me. The problem then becomes one of threatening behaviour ie moving

I think you’ve got it about right there, Steve. Andrew

Response:

How well can trout REALLY see?

Too damn well! -AR

Response:

How well can trout REALLY see? Too damn well! -AR

After 15+ years of testing how well wild brown trout see…here are some basic conclusions IMHO: 1) they react to objects no farther than 45 feet left, right, and front in ideal visibility conditions 2) they react to objects (birds) as high as 80 ft. overhead in ideal visibility conditions 3) their optimum eyesight is about 8X that of a human’s from 4 ft. to 1 inch. BobE.

Response:

92 degree window of vision….the deeper they are, the bigger this window gets. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How well can trout REALLY see? Too damn well! -AR

Response:

I’ll tell you what…I’m planning on taking a dark brown magic marker to those damned white letters on the waders I got for christmas. TimW

Response:

Re: How well can trout REALLY see? How well can trout REALLY see? Too damn well! -AR

After 15+ years of testing how well wild brown trout see…here are some basic conclusions IMHO: 1) they react to objects no farther than 45 feet left, right, and front in ideal visibility conditions 2) they react to objects (birds) as high as 80 ft. overhead in ideal visibility conditions 3) their optimum eyesight is about 8X that of a human’s from 4 ft. to 1 inch. BobE. <<<<<<<< How do you define "8X that of a humans?".  What experiments did you actually perform?  Have you published in a peer review journal? William Buchman

Response:

TimW — Ha! Ha! Just stay downstream…no need to worry. Seriously, I’d like to apologise to those who read my previous post about 8x vision…while I truly believe that *wild* browns (at least in my home waters) have this effective vision, the techniques I used to "prove" this to myself are not based on the kind of scientific procedure that I’d be willing to defend in public. I have done many of my own tests over the last 15 years to satisfy myself that the 8x figure is the accurate *effective* vision of a wild brown in certain (if not, most) feeding conditions…the theory has served me well, because using this principle my catch rate dramatically improved when I was actively fishing browns from 1982-1990, especially in spring creek and clear water habitates. It’s a long and complicated story that many flyfishers more knowledgeable than me (especially Dr. Bachman, TimW, Mr. Zink, Al Beatty, and a whole bunch more) could shoot a lot of holes thru. (Even I can shoot holes thru it.) When all is said and done, I don’t know for certain what and how well brown trout see. I just use the 8x as a rule of thumb to gage the quality of all brown trout flies I tie. Simply stated, I believe that if all tyers considered the 8x as a standard measurement to gage the quality of their flies they would catch a lot more trout …but only Seth Green knows this for sure. And, all of us have stories about the biggest trout we ever caught hitting a ragged and torn fly that looked terrible. From now on, I’ll be a little more cautious about spewing me theories. Thanks for your understanding. BobE. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll tell you what…I’m planning on taking a dark brown magic marker to those damned white letters on the waders I got for christmas. TimW

Response:

I’ll tell you what…I’m planning on taking a dark brown magic marker to those damned white letters on the waders I got for christmas. TimW

No Tim,  Those white letters are called Christmas cards.  All you need do is unstick them from your waders. If you have any further problems I am sure that there is a club nearby who hold beginners evenings and would be willing to help. Cheers Bruce….<g

Response:

How well can trout REALLY see?

Really well, but not nearly as acutely as human’s.  There is evidence that trout see farther into the ultraviolet and infrared at least while fingerlings and again during spawning.  If Ralph Cutter happens to read this, he could probably give you the specifics of the color spectrum studies.  No one can really tell you exactly what they see though, because no one has ever come back from being a fish – at least not with any memory of it.   However, based on the biological make-up of their eyes  we have some good guesses.   On the human eye, the fovea (sp?)  is a small indentation "" on the back of the retina that is covered with cone cells (color receptors).  They are in a very high concentration in this spot with very few rod cells (black and white or low-light receptors) in evidence.  The lens of the human eye focuses light on this fovea and that’s what gives us the visual acuity (sharp & clear vision) we enjoy – at least for a while.  In low light the rod cells expand allowing us to see in black & white.  Because there are few rod cells in the fovea,  you will often see an object more clearly in low light if you look slightly off to the side of it.  This puts more light on the surrounding rod cells and allows you to see the target better even if it is with your peripheral vision. Trout’s eyes have both rod cells and cone cells on the retina of their eye.  During normal light conditions the cone cells are expanded – during low light, the cone cells recede and the rod cells expand allowing them to see by starlight.  The retina does not however have a fovea, nor does the lens of the eye focus the light on any one small spot on the retina.  Best guess is that although trout can see color all around and can judge distances well within a 30 degree cone in front of them (binocular vision) everything is still blurry even from 2" away.  Acuity is somewhat lacking. This is perhaps one of the reasons why they take a fly that has an otherwise obvious hook hanging from it.  Also helps explain why impressionist or imitative flies usually work much better than "realistic flies" which may match the natural perfectly.                                  Hope this helps,                                             Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

Response:

, I know that I’ve seen trout streak 8-10 feet, from deep down, to take a small dry fly in moving water.  I’ve also seen one rise to a cigarette butt.  And I’ve scattered them from just far enough away for a good cast.  Suffice to say, that a trout’s vision in water is analogous to your vision in air–they’ve adapted to survive and flourish, as have we (assuming I’m a human and not a fish).  I can’t tell you if trout have 20/20 vision, what we think they see is just the best guess, only the trout know for sure.  I don’t pay much attention to what I wear under my vest, but I am careful about moving slowly and casting shadows. Anglerboy

And don’t forget they can see behind underwater objects like rocks and tree branches by using the reflective mirror of the surface film outside the ‘window’, where they see through the surface. Avoid heavy footfalls on the river bank or when wading as their lateral line vibration sense is acute. I think that may be how seatrout (anadromous browns) can detect my size 14 black pennel on a pitch black night…. Pete Marrow   work:  http://www.gsrg.nmh.ac.uk/   play:  http://www.gorp.com/gorp/activity/scottish_ff_faq.htm

Response:

There have been a number of recent posts presuming to know how well trout see.  My guess is that they are all WRONG!  Who can tell us about *experiments* that increase the liklihood of any of these assertions to be true. There are optical effects produced by a small flies that may attract trout even if they cannot see the fly clearly.  Certainly, even small dry flies dimple the surface of water causing light to refract in strange ways and cast fairly large shadows.  Glints off of peacock and various reflective materials may also attract attention.  A selective fish does not have to see the fly clearly.  It can wait until it gets close before making an eat or flee response. I make no assertions about how trout see or process information. William Buchman

Response:

Well put – no one really knows (and hence the vendors can sell us anything…). However, I DO know that a golf ball has eyes and a brain.  Having tried to play golf I do know that balls that I find in the woods while looking for my ball soon will return there.  It would seem that these "wild" balls differ in their genetic makeup from the store-bought put-n-putt cousins… but I digress….. — Tim Wohlford, DO NOT SEND JUNK E-MAIL: "By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer meets the definition of a telephone fax machine.  By Sec.227(b)(1)(C), it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.  By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500, whichever is greater, for each violation." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There have been a number of recent posts presuming to know how well trout see.  My guess is that they are all WRONG!  Who can tell us about *experiments* that increase the liklihood of any of these assertions to be true. There are optical effects produced by a small flies that may attract trout even if they cannot see the fly clearly.  Certainly, even small dry flies dimple the surface of water causing light to refract in strange ways and cast fairly large shadows.  Glints off of peacock and various reflective materials may also attract attention.  A selective fish does not have to see the fly clearly.  It can wait until it gets close before making an eat or flee response. I make no assertions about how trout see or process information. William Buchman

Response:

I’ve read about a trouts field of view and its ability to sense vibration/disturbance through its lateral line. Does anyone know how well a trout can distinguish one object from another? Where I fish there are a lot of boulders and laurel. If I’m wearing subdued clothing and not splashing around, can a trout pick me out from the surrounding terrain?

Though clothing is definetely a big consideration, I wouldn’t worry too much. You see, apparently even today’s most advanced trout can’t see well enough to detect the bend, point and barb of a hook. It’s amazing how these cunning, fabled creatures we pursue -which can supposedly detect the most microscopic details in color and size of the insects they are feeding on- somehow, time and time again, fail to notice the large, metallic-brown, bent, nasty-looking organ that is protruding from the crotch of every artificial fly that has ever been created. Fly fishing or lock-picking… Spinolio

Response:

: I’ve read about a trouts field of view and its ability to sense : vibration/disturbance through its lateral line. Does anyone know how : well a trout can distinguish one object from another? Where I fish there : are a lot of boulders and laurel. If I’m wearing subdued clothing and : not splashing around, can a trout pick me out from the surrounding : terrain? : : Thanks in advance. Yes, no and maybe All the following occurred in bright sunny conditions about mid-day: Anecodote 1: at least 40 feet downstream of a fish tailing in 12" water … waved a fly away from my face, bow wave … one annoyed fish. Anecdote 2: next to, standing, a fish picking tasty morsels off a submerged log for 5 minutes.  Approached from downstream *verrrry* slowly with the sun behind and casting shadows away from the fish, probably could have tailed it if I’d been that way inclined, moved my rod arm something caught his eye … gone. Anecdote 3: fish hard against a bank in a riffly run, I’m within a rod length, a birds shadow made it change position then return after a minute or so.  Watching it feed, yup taking nymphs, scratched my nose … Gone. All three have a common thread, sudden or unexpected movement.   I am of the belief that if I can see a fish, the actual fish spots ‘n all, not shadows or riseforms, then they can definately see me. The problem then becomes one of threatening behaviour ie moving Steve Still in Melbourne, Australia.

Response:

I’ve read about a trouts field of view and its ability to sense vibration/disturbance through its lateral line. Does anyone know how well a trout can distinguish one object from another? Where I fish there are a lot of boulders and laurel. If I’m wearing subdued clothing and not splashing around, can a trout pick me out from the surrounding terrain? Thanks in advance.

Response:

 Does anyone know how well a trout can distinguish one object from another?

G & A, I know that I’ve seen trout streak 8-10 feet, from deep down, to take a small dry fly in moving water.  I’ve also seen one rise to a cigarette butt.  And I’ve scattered them from just far enough away for a good cast.  Suffice to say, that a trout’s vision in water is analogous to your vision in air–they’ve adapted to survive and flourish, as have we (assuming I’m a human and not a fish).  I can’t tell you if trout have 20/20 vision, what we think they see is just the best guess, only the trout know for sure.  I don’t pay much attention to what I wear under my vest, but I am careful about moving slowly and casting shadows. Anglerboy

Response:

     Trout have excellent vision, especially character recognition.  I’ve found that they usually read the fishing regulations before the season opens, and on opening day take an extended vacation to parts unknown. el coyotero was here

Response:

writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Does anyone know how well a trout can distinguish one object from another? G & A, I know that I’ve seen trout streak 8-10 feet, from deep down, to take a small dry fly in moving water.  I’ve also seen one rise to a cigarette butt.  And I’ve scattered them from just far enough away for a good cast.  Suffice to say, that a trout’s vision in water is analogous to your vision in air–they’ve adapted to survive and flourish, as have we (assuming I’m a human and not a fish).  I can’t tell you if trout have 20/20 vision, what we think they see is just the best guess, only the trout know for sure.  I don’t pay much attention to what I wear under my vest, but I am careful about moving slowly and casting shadows. Anglerboy

They can see better in smooth water vs. rippled water so you are more likely to spook trout in pools. Their eyes are placed on the sides of their heads so they have a wider angle of vision than we do. They can pick out a size #28 nymph without any problems. My best guess is that they see movement much better than we do. Their natural enemies (birds etc.) strike from above and food is also often found on the surface so they’re tuned into motion from above. Also they hear very well with a band of "ears" along their sides and can easily hear you stomping around on the banks long before they can see you in some cases. Good thing their brain is only the size of a pea. <G Don Burns

Response:

Question:

James

Response:

Can anyone tell me where I can find salmon fly patterns on the net. I am looking for patterns from Iceland. I have tried two patterns and the colour in them is great, have had great luck with the patterns and would like to get more. Thank you.

Response:

Can anyone tell me where I can find salmon fly patterns on the net. I am looking for patterns from Iceland. I have tried two patterns and the colour in them is great, have had great luck with the patterns and would like to get more. Thank you.

Just curious.  Do you fish these patterns the Icelandic way with the 14′ long rods?  If so, what do you think of that particular style of fishing? Mike

Response:

Question:

| Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! [chomp] |  TO MEAT OR NOT TO MEAT?  ( REVISED EDITION 8/10/96) | [..] | to live".  Bob had NOT eaten meat since he was 23, and the results | were that his heart was dying due to lack of meat. The doctor Riiiiight! Heard of Craig Shergold?

Response:

[...] : : As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals : : are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat. : What makes you so sure that "most of those animals are fed on : GRASS" ?   What evidence do you have to support this? : Now we await the long silence…..         Would that we had had to endure YOURS.  Be that as it may, however,         it’s clear that you have never been to a cattle-raising country         in which you actually engaged in observation.  The fact is that         most beef cattle are raised by grazing and, in the U. S. anyway,         only spend the last few weeks of life in a feedlot.  It is my         understanding that many other beef-producing countries dispense         with the feedlot and bring the animals to market directly from         the range (which is why their beef tends to be somewhat less         tender and somewhat more strongly flavored than the rather bland         stuff we’re used to in the U. S.).         How much time does the average beef cow spend in the feedlots,         Seetoh?         [With any luck, we'll now endure a long silence...] — – Rich Young (E-mail will be posted publicly as I see fit.  You have been warned.)

Response:

Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! I would like to take this time to point out the double-standards by which vegetarians live by. I feel it is my duty to open the eyes

text deleted hare krishna, actually i agree with a lot of this post. IF YOU ARE NOT SELF-SUFFICIENT YOU ARE NOT A VEGETARIAN. that’s why i’m learning everything i can about self-sufficiency and sustainable, cruelty-free, organic agriculture. but i must say that the below text is a load of garbage. i’m a hare krishna devotee (please refrain from the cult jokes). i live on a krishna farm community and teach at our elementary school. all the children here have been strict vegetarians since birth. visitors are always commenting on how radiantly healthy they look. some of the older kids who go to public high school are star athletes of every sport. none have EVER eaten meat. bhaktin casey – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  TO MEAT OR NOT TO MEAT?  ( REVISED EDITION 8/10/96) In a recent study, a 35 year old male, strict vegetarian of 12 years, went for a checkup at his doctors office.  Thinking he was perfectly fit, the man proceeded out the office right after the checkup. The doctor chased him down the hall, and grabbed him aside then he said, " Im sorry Bob, you have 2 months to live".  Bob had NOT eaten meat since he was 23, and the results were that his heart was dying due to lack of meat. The doctor said he needed meat at least occasionaly, to live. Unfortunately, the problem could not be corrected, it was too late for Bob. he died on 8/21/96. This sad episode COULD have been prevented.  In another related study,  Woman who are pregnant that were vegetarians averaged    babies with a much lower weight than meat-eating pregnant mothers. 50% of the babies of strict vegetarians were considered "weak" and "having birth weights of dangerously low levels". This is sad news, but true. You see people, we need meat to build our strong hearts, and strong muscles. These "weak" babies didnt get a chance to choose if they wanted to be vegetarians, their bodies were forced only veggies by the unsensitive mothers, who, in a way, were already forcing their beliefs on their un-born child. This doesnt need to be the case. Or how about when your child is 16 years old, and is 4 foot 9, with bad bones and bad vision? what do you do when that child asks you , "mommy, why did you take the life away from me? why didnt you feed me the necessary nutrients that meat provides when I was in your womb?" These sad cases are all too often. Meat builds champions, and warriors. We need meat to fight our wars, and to be victorious. We need the feeling of bringing home the meat to our family. A feeling that cant be taken for granted. Come on people, cows are no better than mosquitos. If your a vegetarian, and bugs hit your windshield, and it doesnt bother you, why does it bother you when an old cow gets a bolt through the head? What is the difference? The folks that started our very existence, ate meat and loved it. If it were not for their great meat-eating abilities, we all would not be here. So I ask you to rally your support for our GREAT fishermen and hunters. these caring and bright people continue fine traditions that are responsible for your being here. That great Sportsmen, the breath of fresh air in a smoggy world, is the master of his domain, a true "king" if you will, of his senses and surroundings. Fishing and Hunting are the bright positives in a negative world. And there is nothing like enjoying a big barbeque before a good hunt or fishing outing.  Ribs, chicken wings, drumsticks, meatballs, fish fillets(trout are best served whole), steaks, eggs, chicken breasts, veil, lamb cutlet dripping with grease, juicy, flavourful bratwurst, and best of all, a nice side of ham with some spicey mustard.  these sorts of foods provide oneself with power, nutrition, and the ability to prosper in adverse enviornments. So, I ask you again, support the great fishermen and hunters. Give them a pat on the back when   you see one , and tell him/her, "thanks, thanks for all youve done. Thank you for allowing me the gift of true life. I am forever thankful." Lets not have anymore weak babies and sad stories like the one above. Start supporting meat and our great sportspersons. For these individuals know the essence of life. If you take the time to really know a sportsperson, you might change your life, for the better.——Muskie

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life : than hunters or meat eaters. : : This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being : killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced : there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… : it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity : of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals : (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. : As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals : are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat. What makes you so sure that "most of those animals are fed on GRASS" ?   What evidence do you have to support this? Now we await the long silence….. seetoh

In California one of our largest crops is rice and the biproduct of rice production consists of millions of mosquito fish and crawdads flushed out of the fields before harvest. Most of these die in the drainage ditches. Since most of the veggies eat rice just think how many animal lives they are responsible for. Harvesting other grains destroys bird nests and draining wetlands to grow these benign grains have destroyed the waterfowl flocks that use to blacken our skies with their flights (do you think that might have been another form of air polution  )   I wish they would enjoy their veggies and leave more good wholesome meat for the rest of us dewayne

Response:

Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! I would like to take this time to point out the double-standards by which vegetarians live by. I feel it is my duty to open the eyes of the hypocrites, once and for all. Alot of vegetarians eat that way because they dont believe in killing animals. Well, guess what? You vegetarians kill many animals by eating corn, beans, turnips and other such vegetables.  When old macdonald is out in his field in planting or harvesting season, he is running over many mice, bird eggs, salamanders, and you name it with his plow and tractor. Ever seen how fast a baby rabbit is when it is two weeks old? Not very. It is also not very likely that a nest of young bunnys could survive a run in with a plow or tractor wheel.   Grouse eggs, plus baby grouse dont stand a chance in the farmers WHEAT fields  when its pickin’ time.  Weasels, baby skunks, baby woodchucks, baby geese, baby oppusom, tucked in their little burrows into the soft dirt of the farmers field dont have a chance in planting or plowing season. Every time you take a bite of that corn, and think to yourself, " Im glad im a vegetarian, I dont kill animals like those stupid hunters do " , you contribute to at least a few senseless animal deaths. For every 200 acre farmers field, think of all the animals that are killed or mamed by the plow or harvester! Animals dont know any better to nest and live somewhere else. They see a nice field to nest up in, not knowing the horrors that lie ahead. Think of all the shrews, all the insects, and all the animal life that is destroyed when old macdonald plants and harvests. It is overwelming. Now, I have seen many farms and met many farmers, and I havent seen ONE farmer without a shotgun, or a gun that he hunts birds and animals with. I have seen many farms that use barb wire fences to keep out deer so they dont eat the vegetable products growing on the farm. If you look at some of those fences, you can see deer hair and   skin stuck to the barbs, and sometimes deer will get stuck in those fences and ultimatley die a slow and horrible death, all twisted and mangled with broken necks. And, most farmers have 22’s they use to pot-shoot groundchucks and groundhogs, to keep them from eating the vegetable products they are growing. Not a pretty picture I am painting here is it veggies?  rabbits are always a nusiance on farms, and hence, many farmers utilize cats and dogs to comb the fields, hoping these pets will keep the rabbit population down. A farmers field yeilding vegetable products is not a animal friendly place as you can see! But wait, theres more!   Many farmers growing vegetable product also use pesticides. These pesticides either annoy or kill tens of thousands of different insect animal life. Not only do the pesticides used kill insect life, when the rains come down, these pestecides wash off into farm creeks, ponds, and lakes. Ever seen a river next to some large corn or lettuce farms? The fish life is pathetic at best. catfish with tumors, and where bass used to live, suckers take over because the runoff has killed the oxygen levels, making it almost impossible for fish to survive. So, even eating corn kills fish!  Pesticide runoff is a common problem where farmers grow vegetable product. It causes the death of thousands of fish, and virtually destroys these freshwater ecosystems, killing turtles, ducks, kingfishers, herons, cranes, mink, otter, racoon, muskrat and so on. I think your getting the picture. How does that guilt-free salad taste now?   and think of the cows, deer, fox, coyote,and other large game that drink form these pesticide creeks and lakes! All so you can have your guilt-free vegetarian life style! How about them veggies! As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life than hunters or meat eaters. I have exposed the double standards and hypocrisy by which vegetarians live, and I hope they stop the high and mighty banter, and the self righteous behaviour they impose on everyone else who chooses to eat meat. All I ask in return is an apology from AR’s (animal rights people) to hunters and meat eaters.  It is as simple as that.——Muskie  TO MEAT OR NOT TO MEAT?  ( REVISED EDITION 8/10/96) In a recent study, a 35 year old male, strict vegetarian of 12 years, went for a checkup at his doctors office.  Thinking he was perfectly fit, the man proceeded out the office right after the checkup. The doctor chased him down the hall, and grabbed him aside then he said, " Im sorry Bob, you have 2 months to live".  Bob had NOT eaten meat since he was 23, and the results were that his heart was dying due to lack of meat. The doctor said he needed meat at least occasionaly, to live. Unfortunately, the problem could not be corrected, it was too late for Bob. he died on 8/21/96. This sad episode COULD have been prevented.  In another related study,  Woman who are pregnant that were vegetarians averaged    babies with a much lower weight than meat-eating pregnant mothers. 50% of the babies of strict vegetarians were considered "weak" and "having birth weights of dangerously low levels". This is sad news, but true. You see people, we need meat to build our strong hearts, and strong muscles. These "weak" babies didnt get a chance to choose if they wanted to be vegetarians, their bodies were forced only veggies by the unsensitive mothers, who, in a way, were already forcing their beliefs on their un-born child. This doesnt need to be the case. Or how about when your child is 16 years old, and is 4 foot 9, with bad bones and bad vision? what do you do when that child asks you , "mommy, why did you take the life away from me? why didnt you feed me the necessary nutrients that meat provides when I was in your womb?" These sad cases are all too often. Meat builds champions, and warriors. We need meat to fight our wars, and to be victorious. We need the feeling of bringing home the meat to our family. A feeling that cant be taken for granted. Come on people, cows are no better than mosquitos. If your a vegetarian, and bugs hit your windshield, and it doesnt bother you, why does it bother you when an old cow gets a bolt through the head? What is the difference? The folks that started our very existence, ate meat and loved it. If it were not for their great meat-eating abilities, we all would not be here. So I ask you to rally your support for our GREAT fishermen and hunters. these caring and bright people continue fine traditions that are responsible for your being here. That great Sportsmen, the breath of fresh air in a smoggy world, is the master of his domain, a true "king" if you will, of his senses and surroundings. Fishing and Hunting are the bright positives in a negative world. And there is nothing like enjoying a big barbeque before a good hunt or fishing outing.  Ribs, chicken wings, drumsticks, meatballs, fish fillets(trout are best served whole), steaks, eggs, chicken breasts, veil, lamb cutlet dripping with grease, juicy, flavourful bratwurst, and best of all, a nice side of ham with some spicey mustard.  these sorts of foods provide oneself with power, nutrition, and the ability to prosper in adverse enviornments. So, I ask you again, support the great fishermen and hunters. Give them a pat on the back when   you see one , and tell him/her, "thanks, thanks for all youve done. Thank you for allowing me the gift of true life. I am forever thankful." Lets not have anymore weak babies and sad stories like the one above. Start supporting meat and our great sportspersons. For these individuals know the essence of life. If you take the time to really know a sportsperson, you might change your life, for the better.——Muskie

Response:

Is "dying from lack of meat" the technical definition of "Bob’s" condition; i don’t have a strong medical background.                                         -curious

Response:

Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! I would like to take this time to point out the double-standards by which vegetarians live by. [rest deleted]

Well… It *is* the truth, isn’t it ? TimW

Response:

Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts!

Hmm, using my wonderous (almost if I could get it to work properly) new bit of software at home, I can browse the newsgroups whilst also being able to see the newsgroups list. The concept of people on ‘talk.politic.tibet’, ‘rec.animals.wildlife’, ‘rec.backcountry’ etc being ‘fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts’ just doesn’t really ring true. I think the best thing is to assume it is a troll and <snip — David Arno

Response:

As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life than hunters or meat eaters.

This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. In addition, the animal you kill and eat has used that excess plant matter to create urine, fecal matter, methane, etc… which causes gross pollution in many parts of this country. I have exposed the double standards and hypocrisy by which vegetarians live, and I hope they stop the high and mighty banter, and the self righteous behaviour they impose on everyone else who chooses to eat meat. All I ask in return is an apology from AR’s (animal rights people) to hunters and meat eaters.  It is as simple as that.——Muskie

If animals had a voice, they would demand an apology from YOU.

Response:

Is "dying from lack of meat" the technical definition of "Bob’s" condition; i don’t have a strong medical background.                                    -curious

Sounds kind of funny to me, maybe that doctor should face a review board, sounds like s/he doesn’t know what s/he is talking about.  If it were protein deficiency, that’s one thing, but "dying from lack of meat"….sounds like a diagnosis a 3-year old hamburger lover would make. Cynthia S. Smith http://www.sn.no/~csmith http://www.ifi.uio.no/~cynthias

Response:

= =   As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life =   than hunters or meat eaters. = =   This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being =   killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced =   there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… =   it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity =   of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals =   (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. In addition, the =   animal you kill and eat has used that excess plant matter to create =   urine, fecal matter, methane, etc… which causes gross pollution in =   many parts of this country. Hmmm…what if you raise the meat animals on permanent pasture (i.e. rarely if ever plowed)? —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! I would like to take this time to point out the double-standards by which vegetarians live by. I feel it is my duty to open the eyes of the hypocrites, once and for all. Alot of vegetarians eat that way because they dont believe in killing animals. Well, guess what? You vegetarians kill many animals by eating corn, beans, turnips and other such vegetables.  When old macdonald is out in his field in planting or harvesting season, he is running over many mice, bird eggs, salamanders, and you name it with his plow and tractor. Ever seen how fast a baby rabbit is when it is two weeks old? Not very. It is also not very likely that a nest of young bunnys could survive a run in with a plow or tractor wheel.   Grouse eggs, plus baby grouse dont stand a chance in the farmers WHEAT fields  when its pickin’ time.  Weasels, baby skunks, baby woodchucks, baby geese, baby oppusom, tucked in their little burrows into the soft dirt of the farmers field dont have a chance in planting or plowing season. Every time you take a bite of that corn, and think to yourself, " Im glad im a vegetarian, I dont kill animals like those stupid hunters do " , you contribute to at least a few senseless animal deaths. For every 200 acre farmers field, think of all the animals that are killed or mamed by the plow or harvester!   ( the rest deleted)

200 acres?  Not far from here they measure their fields by the section (640 acres)!  And don’t forget all the animals that are no longer with us because of loss of habitat to the plow.

Response:

As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life than hunters or meat eaters. This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian.

As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat.  Rangeland contains a wide variety of animal life, none of which are killed to make room for the growth of human foodstuff (in this case, cattle).  So while it may take 10 times as much grass to make a pound of meat, feeding the grass to the cattle certainly does no harm to the surrounding animals. In addition, the animal you kill and eat has used that excess plant matter to create urine, fecal matter, methane, etc… which causes gross pollution in many parts of this country.

More so than was caused by the vast herds of bison and pronghorns in the past? Jessica and the zoo: Kosh (dog), Liza (horse), Nikki, Pixel, and Voodoo (Demon Cats from Hell), Flick (snake) and oh yeah, Keith (husband), who puts up with us all.   "Frogs are generally considered a pretty non-violent species. Unless, of course, you’re a fly".  -Kermit

Response:

[brutally slaughtered text was here] As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat.  

Except in brownies. And I think the original poster has that down just pat. 8^) TimW

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Arendt) writes: = =   As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life =   than hunters or meat eaters. = =   This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being =   killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced =   there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… =   it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity =   of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals =   (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. In addition, the =   animal you kill and eat has used that excess plant matter to create =   urine, fecal matter, methane, etc… which causes gross pollution in =   many parts of this country. Hmmm…what if you raise the meat animals on permanent pasture (i.e. rarely if ever plowed)?

As you can see "Muskies" tick off just as many, if not MORE rec.backcountry posters than hunters or meat eaters. It’s just amazing, but even when he’s being relatively polite, if not particularly well-reasoned, he sounds like he (she, it?) is on a non-stop rant. And Muskie was certainly never one to limit his posting to a single newsgroup at a time (I’ve deleted about 37 zillion groups in the header so I won’t be accused of spamming) Welcome back, Muskie …  I guess!! — Cheers, Paul Weiss Backwater Trails: http://www.netaccess.on.ca/~cpweiss/BWT/BWT.html Personal Home Page: http://www.netaccess.on.ca/~cpweiss/ Quote:"A symposium on time-travel will be held two weeks ago"            "Does anal retentive have a hyphen?"                                                        

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! I would like to take this time to point out the double-standards by which vegetarians live by. I feel it is my duty to open the eyes text deleted hare krishna, actually i agree with a lot of this post. IF YOU ARE NOT SELF-SUFFICIENT YOU ARE NOT A VEGETARIAN. that’s why i’m learning everything i can about self-sufficiency and sustainable, cruelty-free, organic agriculture. but i must say that the below text is a load of garbage. i’m a hare krishna devotee (please refrain from the cult jokes). i live on a krishna farm community and teach at our elementary school. all the children here have been strict vegetarians since birth. visitors are always commenting on how radiantly healthy they look. some of the older kids who go to public high school are star athletes of every sport. none have EVER eaten meat. bhaktin casey  TO MEAT OR NOT TO MEAT?  ( REVISED EDITION 8/10/96) In a recent study, a 35 year old male, strict vegetarian of 12 years, went for a checkup at his doctors office.  Thinking he was perfectly fit, the man proceeded out the office right after the checkup. The doctor chased him down the hall, and grabbed him aside then he said, " Im sorry Bob, you have 2 months to live".  Bob had NOT eaten meat since he was 23, and the results were that his heart was dying due to lack of meat. The doctor said he needed meat at least occasionaly, to live. Unfortunately, the problem could not be corrected, it was too late for Bob. he died on 8/21/96. This sad episode COULD have been prevented.  In another related study,  Woman who are pregnant that were vegetarians averaged    babies with a much lower weight than meat-eating pregnant mothers. 50% of the babies of strict vegetarians were considered "weak" and "having birth weights of dangerously low levels". This is sad news, but true. You see people, we need meat to build our strong hearts, and strong muscles. These "weak" babies didnt get a chance to choose if they wanted to be vegetarians, their bodies were forced only veggies by the unsensitive mothers, who, in a way, were already forcing their beliefs on their un-born child. This doesnt need to be the case. Or how about when your child is 16 years old, and is 4 foot 9, with bad bones and bad vision? what do you do when that child asks you , "mommy, why did you take the life away from me? why didnt you feed me the necessary nutrients that meat provides when I was in your womb?" These sad cases are all too often. Meat builds champions, and warriors. We need meat to fight our wars, and to be victorious. We need the feeling of bringing home the meat to our family. A feeling that cant be taken for granted. Come on people, cows are no better than mosquitos. If your a vegetarian, and bugs hit your windshield, and it doesnt bother you, why does it bother you when an old cow gets a bolt through the head? What is the difference? The folks that started our very existence, ate meat and loved it. If it were not for their great meat-eating abilities, we all would not be here. So I ask you to rally your support for our GREAT fishermen and hunters. these caring and bright people continue fine traditions that are responsible for your being here. That great Sportsmen, the breath of fresh air in a smoggy world, is the master of his domain, a true "king" if you will, of his senses and surroundings. Fishing and Hunting are the bright positives in a negative world. And there is nothing like enjoying a big barbeque before a good hunt or fishing outing.  Ribs, chicken wings, drumsticks, meatballs, fish fillets(trout are best served whole), steaks, eggs, chicken breasts, veil, lamb cutlet dripping with grease, juicy, flavourful bratwurst, and best of all, a nice side of ham with some spicey mustard.  these sorts of foods provide oneself with power, nutrition, and the ability to prosper in adverse enviornments. So, I ask you again, support the great fishermen and hunters. Give them a pat on the back when   you see one , and tell him/her, "thanks, thanks for all youve done. Thank you for allowing me the gift of true life. I am forever thankful." Lets not have anymore weak babies and sad stories like the one above. Start supporting meat and our great sportspersons. For these individuals know the essence of life. If you take the time to really know a sportsperson, you might change your life, for the better.——Muskie

    —— Hmmmmmmmmm?—— Nice disertation but you’re boy Bob is the exception, not the rule. Americans have TOO MUCH MEAT in their diet and their Cholesterol Levels and Fat levels are beyond reason.  FAT INTAKE should not exceed 5% of the total calories and Cholesterol should be as close to zero as possible. George Gehrke

Response:

[snip] BACK UP HERE and consider this.  "ALL life comes from the sun".  You figure out for yourself the evidence that plant material sustains flesh.  At least, I hope you do not lack ‘logic’. George Gehrke/Mr. Gink Now then, can we all start talking about fly fishing please?

I hate to be a nit picking buttinsky but using words like "all" and "always" in a statement usually gets you in trouble.  This is no exception.  There have relatively recently been discovered ecosystems that are completely independent of the sun’s energy.  I’m referring to deep sea sulfur vents which exist in total darkness and sulfur reducing bacteria are the primary producers. Regarding cattle etc. being fed grass.  If the doubter ( I’ve lost track of who’s who on this thread) would like to come to Kansas, I’ll show them the largest remaining tract of tallgrass prairie ( and some of the most beautiful scenery in the world ) with all kinds of cattle happily munching the grass and making steak. — Brent L. Brock Kansas State University Dept. Agronomy, Range Science

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life : than hunters or meat eaters. : : This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being : killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced : there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… : it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity : of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals : (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. : As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals : are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat. What makes you so sure that "most of those animals are fed on GRASS" ?   What evidence do you have to support this? Now we await the long silence….. seetoh

BACK UP HERE and consider this.  "ALL life comes from the sun".  You figure out for yourself the evidence that plant material sustains flesh.  At least, I hope you do not lack ‘logic’. George Gehrke/Mr. Gink Now then, can we all start talking about fly fishing please?

Response:

Don’t forget all the pollution created when shipping those yummy veggies cross country. todd — "I envy not him that eats better meat than I do, nor him that is richer or wears better clothes than I do. I envy nobody but him, and him only, that catches more fish than I do." Izaak Walton

Response:

: As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals : are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat.  Rangeland contains a wide : variety of animal life, none of which are killed to make room for : the growth of human foodstuff (in this case, cattle).  So while it : may take 10 times as much grass to make a pound of meat, feeding : the grass to the cattle certainly does no harm to the surrounding : animals. You are of course referring to buffaloes and wolves when you talk about animals not being killed to make room for cattle.  Then, there are the slash and burn tactics of Brazilian ranchers.  No animals being killed there, eh.  And let us not forget polluted water sources because of animal waste.  Since we are discussing animals, I won’t even go into how many people die early because of the garbage that is passed off on them as meat.                                  -Tom

Response:

: : As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life : than hunters or meat eaters. : : This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being : killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced : there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… : it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity : of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals : (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. : As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals : are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat. What makes you so sure that "most of those animals are fed on GRASS" ?   What evidence do you have to support this? Now we await the long silence….. seetoh

Response:

200 acres?  Not far from here they measure their fields by the section (640 acres)!  And don’t forget all the animals that are no longer with us because of loss of habitat to the plow.

Not to mention all the corn and wheat that died so that we could live.  Don’t discount them;  they’re a sight more alive than rocks and minerals, after all.   Just think;  if redwood trees were a culinary treat,  them environmentalists and vegetarians would have a whole new battle to fight. Not that I distance myself from those particular causes;  I’m simply posing as the polemic. Cheers, Jen

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Doug Arendt) writes: = =   As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life =   than hunters or meat eaters. = =   This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being =   killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced =   there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… =   it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity =   of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals =   (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. In addition, the =   animal you kill and eat has used that excess plant matter to create =   urine, fecal matter, methane, etc… which causes gross pollution in =   many parts of this country. Hmmm…what if you raise the meat animals on permanent pasture (i.e. rarely if ever plowed)? And the previous poster is ignoring that all those ‘pollutants’, urine, fecal matter, etc. are actually the main ingredients in organic fertilizer.  Guess they don’t eat organic produce, huh….. Besides, the WORST pollutant of our water ways is run-off from urban and suburban lawns. Sue — ======= Mike Mayer                     (414) 751-3557     Work: Technology Group, Inc. Neenah, WI                 Home:

In the west a real factor is the amount of water it takes to grow a pound of steak. Alfalfa and hay need LOTS of water. It is tremendously inefficient to grow our protein on the hoof.

Response:

<Hundreds of lines of crap deleted Excellent!  Muskie, meet Dr Jai.  Dr Jai, meet Muskie.  Why don’t the two of you bugger off to alt.fan.jai-maharaj and have a cosy chat? — I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did.  I said I didn’t know.                                                 Mark Twain.

Response:

Question:

Can anyone explain the secret to working with deer hair?  I can ty most other materials reasonably well, however the secret of working with deer hair escapes me.  I’ve had it demonstrated in classes, and have read various books – maybe there’s a simple trick I’m missing – what’s the magic? Thanks in advance, Jon Kreski — EDP Auditor 3 yrs experience (8 yrs Internal Audit)  -

Response:

Can anyone explain the secret to working with deer hair?  I can ty most other materials reasonably well, however the secret of working with deer hair escapes me.  I’ve had it

Classical answer is: — on bare metal shank (i.e. slippery;  thread coverage inhibits hair’s spinning uniformly) — place cleaned pinch of hair (fluff removed) — take not one but two turns of thread — initially loose, not tight — then tighten decisively, with a firm continuous pull. This should cause the hair to spin reasonably uniformly.  If so, then you can see about packing the whole rearwards with thumbnails, winding thread back and forward through the packed hair for extra firmness, etc. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Response:

Can anyone explain the secret to working with deer hair?  I can ty most other materials reasonably well, however the secret of working with deer hair escapes me.  I’ve had it demonstrated in classes, and have read various books – maybe there’s a simple trick I’m missing – what’s the magic?

Hi Jon The trick in working with deer hair is the material being matched to the job.  If you are tying wings and tails you need one type of hair and if you are spinning the hair you need another type Wings & Tails – best hair is located on the hide along the back bone, the shoulder, and the rump.  In small packages this hair is best recognized by the dark grey color in the center part of the hair fibers. Spinning – best hair is located on the hide down on the rib and belly.   This hair is best recognized by the light grey color in the center part of the fiber. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response:

try wrapping loosely first slippin it in between yer thumband forefinger of the hand that yer holding the hair.  do this twice, successfully tighten and then buckle down.  Remember u can rebunch it and slide it back around the shank. stack it baby. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone explain the secret to working with deer hair?  I can ty most other materials reasonably well, however the secret of working with deer hair escapes me.  I’ve had it demonstrated in classes, and have read various books – maybe there’s a simple trick I’m missing – what’s the magic? Thanks in advance, Jon Kreski — EDP Auditor 3 yrs experience (8 yrs Internal Audit)  -

Response:

Question:

Does anyone go fly fishing in Orance County at any of the local beaches?   (*particularly Huntington Beach)  I’d much rather drive 10 minutes to the beach rather than an hour to the nearest fresh water for trout. Jae

Response:

The best salt water fly fishing nearest you, in my opinion, would be in Redondo Beach; King Harbour. Go to Daves Rocky Point at 6:30 am, rent a skiff ($40 for half day) and fish your brains out for Bonita in the harbour. Be sure to have a reel with a drag system and at least an 8-9 rod. Sinking line is considered best, but I have outfished my buddies with a floating line. A 10 lb tippet will do and the Bonita is considered the "Jack Dempsey" of the tuna family. Bonita on the fly is an amazing thing!! Up in the Ventura Co., there is also some great salt water fly fishing from shore. Be sure to have a line tray! the Spy on the Fly

Response: