Question:

Wait till you hear them harmonize on Bee Gees tunes!!

For the finale they re-enact the ‘party’ scene from ‘Apocalypse Now’. At the last clave some kid’s pony wandered in before Wayno could get the Ox away from LaPlac and in place. What a mess, I think there is still litigation in process on that… — Charlie…

Response:

… At the last clave some kid’s pony wandered in before Wayno could get the Ox away from LaPlac and in place. What a mess, I think there is still litigation in process on that…

Yeah, last time I ever put my name on a week long ROFF rental. I’m being sued by the goat owner, the pony owner, the landlord, both neighbors and some poor guy that was driving by the Nangahalla while Louie was makin’ it with a gawdamn tree. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

 Besides, if it was really that easy to find, then I suppose I didn’t help out the troll too much anyway – the damage was already done.

My guess is that, if it was a troll, the object was to get someone other than the troller to post the web site thus making it seem more legit. FWIW. — Charlie…

Response:

Louie was makin’ it with a gawdamn tree.

That was a good story.  :-) — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Before you buy.

Response:

If Bo is coming to the clave, sign me up.  I’d fish with her any time.  Is there a wading list?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – what a coincidence.  the same threesome is scheduled for a reunion performance last night of the carolina clave.  that damn brando, what a bundle of laughs! wayno

Response:

!!PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!!

Turns out it was not a troll after all – just a newbie looking for a pointer for a gift search. In the future maybe we should decide which is worse: a) allow a company to slip in a reference to their product b) turn off someone to a good source of information (i.e. this newsgroup) Regards, Jeff

Response:

!!PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!! Turns out it was not a troll after all – just a newbie looking for a pointer for a gift search.

No offense to the newbie, but their web search engine of choice must really suck. — Charlie…

Response:

!!PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!! Turns out it was not a troll after all – just a newbie looking for a pointer for a gift search. No offense to the newbie, but their web search engine of choice must really suck. — Charlie…

Maybe it was also someone new to the Internet and computers.  I know that my wife would have no idea what to do if buying me a gift over the Internet.  She would also have no idea how to search for anything. But, she does know that I’m always on ROFF.  She would probably be able to post a message here. — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Before you buy.

Response:

Just a guess… but knowing Tom, and also knowing that he doesn’t state things lightly without a reason, I would hazard the guess that was the course of events…. Hence, his assertion of "the troll."

Maybe so.  NOT knowing Tom, I asked why he said so, and all I got in return was "Don’t you know what a troll is?"  So, I didn’t have much to go on.  Besides, if it was really that easy to find, then I suppose I didn’t help out the troll too much anyway – the damage was already done. Regards, Jeff

Response:

oll. Saw that one on The Twilight Zone about forty years ago.  William Shatner, Marlon Brando, and Bo Derek, I believe.

        what a coincidence.  the same threesome is scheduled for a reunion performance last night of the carolina clave.  that damn brando, what a bundle of laughs! wayno

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – oll. Saw that one on The Twilight Zone about forty years ago.  William Shatner, Marlon Brando, and Bo Derek, I believe.         what a coincidence.  the same threesome is scheduled for a reunion performance last night of the carolina clave.  that damn brando, what a bundle of laughs! wayno

Wait till you hear them harmonize on Bee Gees tunes!!

Response:

Maybe they only want us to believe its a troll.That way when we’re busy arguing about it they slip the real troll in and subliminally we’re thinking about that flybox,which we’re supposed to be ignoring because it’s a troll,but if it’s a troll how come I already know more about that flybox then I did before,and now here I am responding to the troll and somebody this very minute is fast mailing an ad for flyboxes to me and they tell me the only way I can get the stream to stop is if I go on a website and ask if anybody’s ever heard of richardson flyboxes.One catch:it can’t sound like a troll. Regards,Shawn

Response:

Maybe they only want us to believe its a troll.That way when we’re busy arguing about it they slip the real troll in and subliminally we’re thinking about that flybox,which we’re supposed to be ignoring because it’s a troll,but if it’s a troll how come I already know more about that flybox then I did before,and now here I am responding to the troll and somebody this very minute is fast mailing an ad for flyboxes to me and they tell me the only way I can get the stream to stop is if I go on a website and ask if anybody’s ever heard of richardson flyboxes.One catch:it can’t sound like a troll.

Saw that one on The Twilight Zone about forty years ago.  William Shatner, Marlon Brando, and Bo Derek, I believe.

Response:

BTW, What does this mean:  "email me off list." Opie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Tom, However, I like choosing for myself which threads to respond to. According to AOL:  A troll is someone looking to pick a virtual fight! Are you a troll yourself. "Do you know what this means." Opie in NC This is a TROLL.  Do you know what this means?  If not, email me off list. Tom — Tom Brown Wake Forest, NC !!PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!! ??? why, who is this? Regards, Jeff

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This is a TROLL.  Do you know what this means?  If not, email me off list. Tom — Tom Brown Wake Forest, NC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – !!PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!! ??? why, who is this? Regards, Jeff

Response:

Has anyone ever heard of this item or where I could find one? CLIP<<<<<<<<<<<<,

Look ——- I know what a troll is —— it’s a person  that drags a bait behind them hoping to catch a fish and then enjoy the act of fishing. I also know that I’ve fly fished for all kinds of fish, even blue gills, and had a hell of a lot of fun doing it, even if 90 % of them just boil the water and I don’t catch them. —- BUT — will someone please answer the question? What the hell is a Lloyd  " Little Bear " .

Response:

will someone please answer the question? What the hell is a

Go to www.google.com and search. You’ll find their site pretty easily, I think. — Charlie…

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This is a TROLL.  Do you know what this means?  If not, email me off list. Tom !!PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!! ??? why, who is this?

Yes, I know what a troll is.  My question seems pretty clear to me.  WHY do you say that and WHO is this alleged troll?  How do you KNOW it’s a troll? Regards, Jeff

Response:

—- BUT — will someone please answer the question? What the hell is a

Well, I was waiting to hear why I shouldn’t answer the question, but so far I haven’t heard a good reason, so… A Richardson fly box hangs on your chest and opens to a shelf.  It was popularized by Joe Humphreys, I believe (I know he uses one anyway).  I looked at them but they were too expensive.  www.chestflybox.com Regards, Jeff

Response:

—- BUT — will someone please answer the question? What the hell is a Well, I was waiting to hear why I shouldn’t answer the question, but so far I haven’t heard a good reason, so… A Richardson fly box hangs on your chest and opens to a shelf.  It was popularized by Joe Humphreys, I believe (I know he uses one anyway).  I looked at them but they were too expensive.  www.chestflybox.com Regards, Jeff

Jeff, I think you swallowed the trolls proffered bait nicely. Knowing Tom, he read the original post and was intrigued. He did a search and found the product. During his search, the ever clandestine Tom noticing that the search result was easy, he questioned the original message’s integrity. He probably traced the poster’s address back to the company and wallah, he caught a red herring. Just a guess… but knowing Tom, and also knowing that he doesn’t state things lightly without a reason, I would hazard the guess that was the course of events…. Hence, his assertion of "the troll." Walt

Response:

Thanks Tom, However, I like choosing for myself which threads to respond to. According to AOL:  A troll is someone looking to pick a virtual fight! Are you a troll yourself. "Do you know what this means." Opie in NC

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a TROLL.  Do you know what this means?  If not, email me off list. Tom — Tom Brown Wake Forest, NC !!PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!! ??? why, who is this? Regards, Jeff

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!!PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!! — Tom Brown Wake Forest, NC Has anyone ever heard of this item or where I could find one?  I have been doing internet searches and am coming up with nothing.  Thanks for your help!!

"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat and wrong."   H.L. Mencken

Response:

!!PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!!

??? why, who is this? Regards, Jeff

Response:

Since this space is used for trolling, I guess I can use it to ask an off-topic question? JeffC1474, what state are you in? Opie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – !!PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!! ??? why, who is this? Regards, Jeff

Response:

Has anyone ever heard of this item or where I could find one?  I have been doing internet searches and am coming up with nothing.  Thanks for your help!!

Response:

Question:

Hi All, I realize the following does not relate to fly fishing.  However, it does relate to our ability to communicate with each other as we do on ROFF. If anyone can show me how to send it to other news groups without subscribing to each one (there are thousands of groups), I would appreciate it.  Please forward this to all you know. PLEASE EMAIL YOUR CONGRESSMAN AND TELL HIM YOU DON’T WANT THIS TO HAPPEN. Pete Please read the following carefully if you intend to stay on-line and continue using e-mail: The last few months have revealed an alarming trend in the Government of the United States attempting to quietly push through legislation that will affect your use of the Internet. Under proposed legislation the US. Postal Service will be attempting to bilk email users out of "alternate postage fees".  Bill 602P will permit the Federal Govt. to charge a 5 cent surcharge on every email delivered, by billing Internet Service Providers at source. The consumer would then be billed in turn by the ISP.  Washington D.C. lawyer Richard Stepp is working without pay to prevent this legislation from becoming law. The U.S. Postal Service is claiming that lost revenue due to the proliferation of email is costing nearly $230,000,000 in revenue per year. You may have noticed their recent ad campaign "There is nothing like a letter".  Since the average citizen received about 10 pieces of email per day in 1998, the cost to the typical individual would be an additional 50 cents per day, or over $180 dollars per year, above and beyond their regular Internet costs.  Note that this would be money paid directly to the U.S. Postal Service for a service they do not even provide.  The whole point of the Internet is democracy and noninterference. If the federal government is permitted to tamper with our liberties by adding a surcharge to email, who knows where it will end.  You are already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail because of bureaucratic inefficiency. If the U.S. Postal Service is allowed to tinker with email, it will mark the end of the "free" Internet in the United States.  One congressman, Tony Schnell has even suggested a "twenty to forty dollar per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond the government’s proposed email charges.  Note that most of the major newspapers have ignored the story, the only exception being the Washingtonian which called the idea of email surcharge "a useful concept whose time has come" (March 6, 1999 Editorial). Don’t sit by and watch your freedom erode away!  Send this email to all Americans on your list and tell your friends and relatives to write to their congressman and say "No!" to Bill 602P. Kate Turner, Assistant to Richard Stepp Berger, Stepp and Gorman Attorneys at Law 216 Concorde Street Vienna, VA URGENT!!!! Pass this along to all your email buddies!

Response:

Thanks to Ken for the heads up relating to spamming.  I did not realize that would be spamming.   I thought advertising a business would be spamming. If you do want to email your congressman regarding this bill which will charge us 5 cents per emailing you can find his address by going to the below web site. http://www.webslingerz.com/jhoffman/congress-email.html Pete

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pete, this is one of those urban myths we’ve all heard about. This one has fooled a lot of folks but it’s untrue. Even if it were true you would NOT want to send this to thousands of newsgroups. That’s called spamming and would almost certainly result in mindspring yanking your account. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Pete, this is one of those urban myths we’ve all heard about. This one has fooled a lot of folks but it’s untrue. Even if it were true you would NOT want to send this to thousands of newsgroups. That’s called spamming and would almost certainly result in mindspring yanking your account. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Hi All, I realize the following does not relate to fly fishing.  However, it does relate to our ability to communicate with each other as we do on ROFF. If anyone can show me how to send it to other news groups without subscribing to each one (there are thousands of groups), I would appreciate it.  Please forward this to all you know. PLEASE EMAIL YOUR CONGRESSMAN AND TELL HIM YOU DON’T WANT THIS TO HAPPEN. Pete

We just managed to get the de facto monopoly, coupled with extortionate online charges etc  here to open up. I would like to see what would happen to anybody who now tried to charge us for e-mails. American congressmen included. TL MC

Response:

602P

Um….Pete, don’t believe everything you see on your computer. First of all, there is no such bill "602P". The closest listed bill – H.R.602- is titled: "Civil Service Long-Term Care Insurance Benefit Act (Introduced in the House)". Not even close. Second, there are only two bills in the entire House or Senate that even mention the word "email": H.R.1910 "To prohibit abuses in the use of unsolicited bulk electronic mail, and for other purposes" (aka the "E-Mail User Protection Act"); and S.809 "Online Privacy Protection Act of 1999" (another Good Thing). Neither of them discuss or describe user fees. Third, even the Postmaster General has refuted the existence of such a plan. You’ve been sucked into one of the better "e-ruses" that have gone around lately. It’s best not to proliferate these throughout Usenet – no matter how much sense they seem to make… /daytripper (source: THOMAS)

Response:

[snipped myself. OUCH!] Did a lookup on "electronic" + "email" and got two more hits: H.R.3113 "Unsolicited Electronic Mail Act of 1999" (‘… to protect individuals, families, and Internet service providers from unsolicited and unwanted electronic mail.’) H.R.1685 "Internet Growth and Development Act" (‘…to provide for the recognition of electronic signatures for the conduct of interstate and foreign commerce, to restrict the transmission of certain electronic mail advertisements, to authorize the Federal Trade Commission to prescribe rules to protect the privacy of users of commercial Internet websites, to promote the rapid deployment of broadband Internet services, and for other purposes.’) Both "Good Things" (imo); and neither mention fees for the likes of us… /daytripper (source: THOMAS)

Response:

602P Um….Pete, don’t believe everything you see on your computer. snip< Third, even the Postmaster General has refuted the existence of such a plan. You’ve been sucked into one of the better "e-ruses" that have gone around lately. It’s best not to proliferate these throughout Usenet – no matter how much sense they seem to make…

I happened to be on the US Postal Service site for another reason and saw that this hoax is apparently so widespread that even the USPS has a refutation on their site. Joe F.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snipped myself. OUCH!] Did a lookup on "electronic" + "email" and got two more hits: H.R.3113 "Unsolicited Electronic Mail Act of 1999" (‘… to protect individuals, families, and Internet service providers from unsolicited and unwanted electronic mail.’) H.R.1685 "Internet Growth and Development Act" (‘…to provide for the recognition of electronic signatures for the conduct of interstate and foreign commerce, to restrict the transmission of certain electronic mail advertisements, to authorize the Federal Trade Commission to prescribe rules to protect the privacy of users of commercial Internet websites, to promote the rapid deployment of broadband Internet services, and for other purposes.’) Both "Good Things" (imo); and neither mention fees for the likes of us… /daytripper (source: THOMAS)

They had the same hoax going around in the Great White North only it was Canada Post and the naughty Chretien Liberals who were the villians.  Had a phony bill too, if I recall. Peter

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SNIP SNIP " You are already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail because of bureaucratic inefficiency."

SNIP SNIP Obviously Im not in favor of a stamp/tax on Email But . . . Your statement above strikes me as bullshit. How is 35 cents "exorbitant?" Compared to what? Some country does it better for less? You know of some private or public enterprize that delivers the same or more value added for 35 cents? On this or any other galaxy? Inefficiency? Ever seen an automated mail sorting facility? Dave

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SNIP SNIP " You are already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail because of bureaucratic inefficiency." SNIP SNIP Obviously Im not in favor of a stamp/tax on Email But . . . Your statement above strikes me as bullshit. How is 35 cents "exorbitant?" Compared to what? Some country does it better for less? You know of some private or public enterprize that delivers the same or more value added for 35 cents? On this or any other galaxy? Inefficiency? Ever seen an automated mail sorting facility? Dave

I’ll also point out that the US Postal Service is one government agency that turns a profit. They really should work on their customer service, though. Going into a big-city post office is still as close as you’ll get to a Stalinist experience in the US. My post office in California routinely loses packages. However, the little post office in Stanley is a well-run, friendly place. The postmaster (postmistress?) knows all the local people by name. I had a problem with ordering stuff to be delivered by UPS because the houses in Stanley don’t have street addresses, which UPS requires. The postmaster just told me to make up an address and she’d tell the UPS guy where I lived. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Question:

If you’d be so kind as to indulge me in a little fish story… Last weekend my family and I went camping in Yosemite valley.  I will not get into the planning and strategies necessary to camp with seven-month old twins for four nights but suffice to say that I was, by the grace of my dear wife, able to sneak away for a little fishing here and there. If you’ve never been there, well, it really is as pretty as you’ve heard.  And much to my amazement, there are fish swimming in the Merced river — right by the spots that millions (well, hundreds of thousands, anyway) of tourists traverse each summer.  I have always assumed that any water with that ease of access and that many people around would be fished out.  But this isn’t the case here.  I suppose that (a) the artificial fly regulations limit the casual baitfishing that often accompanies camping and (b) most people are there to see El Capitan, Half Dome, and the waterfalls.  Anyway, as it turns out there were fish swimming in both the Merced and Tenaya Creek.  The following is the story of one of those fish. The river is extremely low this time of year — not surprising — and the fishing was challenging.  It was like fishing on a mirror, the water was so smooth, clear, and slow-moving. On the third morning I walked downstream until I got to a spot where Katy and I had seen fish the day before.  The good news was they were rising.  The bad news was I couldn’t figure out what they were rising to as nothing seemed to be coming off the water.  I suspect they were taking emergers of some type but never really figured it out.  I crawled to the water’s edge and started throwing out the usual suspects — small caddis, morning duns, light cahills, mosquitos, even a royal wulff.  Nothing.  Fish would rise just behind my fly so I hadn’t scared them — they had just taken a long look at my offering and found it wanting.  Ok, that’s not working.  I tried fishing a couple of these wet with the same effect.  Just for kicks I tied on an ant and cast that under a few branches.  Nothing. At this point I was getting a little frustrated — I’d been working this pool for practically two hours, watching fish rise the whole time, and hadn’t been able to elicit so much as a strike.  I suppose I should have been happy that I hadn’t scared them yet either but that seemed an awful small victory at the time.  I also started to feel that perhaps I should have paid a little bit closer attention in biology.  Stupid bugs. I retreated to a rock to sit and think for a minute.  Having thrown every likely dry in my box I decided it was time to (as my brother-in-law would say) turn to the dark side.  I started to tie on a royal coachman for an indicator and a small prince nymph dropper off the back of the hook.  As I was sitting working on my knots I heard a rustling in the brushes across the river.  I turned to see what it was and saw a deer and her fawn emerging on the far bank.  They seemed unfazed by my presence — I’m sure they have seen plenty of people — and proceeded down to the river to drink.  Figuring that they would go elsewhere once they caught a good whiff of me (remember it’s day three folks…), I turned my attention back to the river and cast out the double rig. About halfway through the pool — a drift that seemed like it took five minutes — I heard splashing behind me.  The deer were crossing the current and coming my way.  I stopped watching my fly and watched them walk by, no more than 20 feet away at the tree line.  As an aside, I overheard a lot of people that weekend complaining that the only wildlife they saw were squirrels and scrub jays — they just needed to get out of bed a little early, find a likely spot, and sit quietly for a while.  The park isn’t a zoo, folks.  Anyway. I decided that seeing the deer was a pretty cool thing and that I should be happy about that too.  It was getting late and I needed to be heading back to camp to help out with breakfast.  I rationalized that a couple more casts wouldn’t really make me that late, right?  I could walk a little faster back to camp. I cast out once again, just in front of an overhanging branch.  The coachman slowly drifted under the branch and then, suddenly, gone! Eyes to brain:  MSG URGENT you’ve got a strike…  I set the hook and started working on getting the fish in. A couple splashes and quick runs later I was unhooking a surprised 12" brown trout.  I know that the standard joke is that big fish are big and small fish are "nice" or "pretty" or "jewels" but I never get over the brilliant markings on a brown trout.  So colorful. That pretty much made the morning.  I cut off the flies, put them back in my box, reeled up my line, and humped it back to camp double-time — just in time for a fresh batch of pancakes off the griddle.  My brother-in-law and father-in-law (who had both declined to go with me that morning) did not believe me about my catch, but my wife saw the look in my eye and knew that I had indeed been successful in my hunt. I ended up getting back to this spot later in the afternoon, ready to go at it again, but by then the river was full of kids throwing rocks and splashing around.  The moment to fish that spot had passed — we were leaving the next morning.  I know that a more accomplished angler may have pulled five or six fish out of that pool in the two-plus hours that I worked it, but that one fish was like a reward, payoff for patience and sticking at it. Thanks for reading, BW Brad Williams father of twins — fly fisher — teller of long stories * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Brad, Nice story.. I believe you!  :) Made me want to fish!! -Mark If you’d be so kind as to indulge me in a little fish story…

– Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad mp3 songs: http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad

Response:

If you’d be so kind as to indulge me in a little fish story…

Nice story, glad you got a fish. TL MC

Response:

Nice story Brad.  The smooth water in the meadows is fun to fish, but the fish are easier to catch if you go upstream to where the white water is. The fish are wild since they quit stocking hatchery trout in the park. Ernie Harrison Have you tried a Blood Knot Machine?  http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2

If you’d be so kind as to indulge me in a little fish story…

<nice story snipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Brad Williams

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Question:

To whomever was requesting this info, I forgot that you can contact Ray

Response:

Check out the links to New Zealand at http://www.davisbrown.com/ffgeo.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Plan to spend 3 weeks in South Island (late April – mid May). Would like some references on guides in South Island. Or alternatively, some web sites would help. Thanks Mike McGuire remove nospam to get correct e-mail address

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Plan to spend 3 weeks in South Island (late April – mid May). Would like some references on guides in South Island. Or alternatively, some web sites would help. Thanks Mike McGuire remove nospam to get correct e-mail address

Response:

Go stay at the Lake Brunner Lodge near Greymouth.  Ray Grubb is owner/guide, etc.  Excellent fishing for big browns in tiny spring creeks, plus it’s a really nice, quaint, very atmospheric place to stay.  I loved it there.  Tell Ray I sent you.  In Queenstown there’s a guy, can’t remember his name, but he owns/runs the Naff Caff cafe.  Go there, ask for him and book him.  He’s good.     Try http://nz.com/cgi-bin/SearchCGI.pl.  It’s the Akiko Web, which is an NZ web engine. Or just go to someplace like the Mining Company and ask for New Zealand fly fishing.  You’ll get plenty of hits.

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Question:

Greetings. I made a reference to Chatham being the only GREAT flyfishing writer alive today (please, this is NOT a John Gierach troll….). I have a specific honest and open-minded question that I ask at the bottom of this post…. Someone responed (I need to go see whom)…"What about Thomas McGuane ?" Well, I wasn’t really sure and hadn’t read any T. McGuane recently, so I read "The Longest Silence" yesterday. I must say that what I read really got me in a lather, it was difficult for me to even get off page one and I recalled my previous feeling for the man. It was not GREAT writing, far from it. The problem was that he made reference to meat hunters and their gunnysack full mentality and how if he hears one more person ask him "is they good to et ?" he would go nuts (which is fine and dandy, he is allowed to have an opinion) but then he went on to (discussing the pursuit of permit) say that "if you have one mounted….", (what you could expect), etc. So I read (in no uncertain terms)… 1) Hunting for meat is beyond reproach. 2) Hunting for a trophy is acceptible. And, as far as I’m concerned….McGuane can pound sand… But that was just the tip…I felt like he was bragging the whole time…about his fearless hauling ass in his overpowered skiff and ricking life and limb in the process. Actually "Bragging" describes his writing farily accurately to me (kind of the way I feel when I read Wulff). Does he write well ?  Perhaps, if you would call inflammatory remarks and bragging ‘writing well’.  A GREAT fishing writer should not rely on this sort of thing, IMO, however popular with his constituents.  It simply is never necessary in the telling of any story by a GREAT writer. I immediately reread Chathams "No Wind in the Willows" (both short stories are in Sports Afield "A Flyfishers Reader") and was brought back to a semblance of calm. Not unlike the transient calmness brought on by the writings in "Waterlog" In fact, if you want me to mellow out entirely, pool together and buy me a subscription to this, the best fishing periodical in the world (Gray’s Sporting News excepted). I guess if asked to surmise… Chatham took me fishing. McGuane took me with him while he fished. Chatham had ’soul’. McGuane only spouted. What can I say, I loved the former but loathed the latter. I’d hate to formulate an opinion on one short story…thus my question…. Can someone point me to "good" McGuane ? Or maybe they meant Thomas Macintyre ? — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

Response:

And no-one could accuse you of making "inflammatory remarks" could they Tim??? — Regards Peter (Please also reply by email, my server "loses" posts. Remove nospam to email) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings. Does he write well ?  Perhaps, if you would call inflammatory remarks and bragging ‘writing well’.  A GREAT fishing writer should not rely on this

Response:

And no-one could accuse you of making "inflammatory remarks" could they Tim???

But, uh…with all due respect… We were discussing GREAT fishing author’s and not… "The Efficacy of Beligerance in an Internet Flyfishing Newsgroup…". But if you wanna start that thread….go for it ! — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

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Moe asked: <Can someone point me to "good" McGuane ? Impossible.  Go reread Hemingway.

Response:

It’s supposed to be funny!  I think he’s as cynical as they come and I tend to like that sort of thing.  Have you read the Sporting Club?  It makes a lot of fun of the "sports" and they (we) deserve it– in a good way.

Response:

I am willing to wager that any one sentence chosen at random from McGuane’s "Essays On Sport" is more worthy of our attention than anything that will ever pop into your pea brain.  (For example, unlike you, he knows how to spell the word "acceptable.")   If you fish no better than you write, I doubt you’ll ever pose a serious threat to permit.

Response:

It’s a bit harsh to pull someone up for a spelling mistake. Not using the spell checker yes, fair enough but not for a spelling mistake! — Regards Peter (Please also reply by email, my server "loses" posts. Remove nospam to email)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am willing to wager that any one sentence chosen at random from McGuane’s "Essays On Sport" is more worthy of our attention than anything that will ever pop into your pea brain.  (For example, unlike you, he knows how to spell the word "acceptable.")   If you fish no better than you write, I doubt you’ll ever pose a serious threat to permit.

Response:

I made a reference to Chatham being the only GREAT flyfishing writer alive today (please, this is NOT a John Gierach troll….). I have a specific honest and open-minded question that I ask at the bottom of this post….

Wait a minute, I seem to recall a post not so long ago where you maintained a certain writer (whose name I won’t mention) couldn’t possibly be a GREAT fly fishing writer because eighth graders wouldn’t ever be required to read his work (creating a situation where there might only be five "great" writers in all the history of man). Is Chatham required reading in junior high? Tight lines, TC

Response:

Moe asked: <Can someone point me to "good" McGuane ? Impossible.  Go reread Hemingway.

if there is one thing I hate it’s people using Hemingway as an example of a great FF writer. A great writer he was, perhaps the best of a great lot the US of A produced this century. But as a fisherman and a writer about FF he was just a duffer; a mere pedestrian. Most who fished with him ( and lived to regret the experience) – remarked he wasn’t much of a fisherman.Much of his reputation was thanks to his talent for bragging and fabrication (he was a writer of fiction after all!) Hemmingway publically admitted to admiring Haig-Brown – enough said. Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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Read McGuane’s short story "Molly" in an Outside Chance. If you have ever owned a bird dog you will laugh your ass off.

Response:

Excellent point on McGuane’s rehashing of the same plot line and though he can make his rehash interesting sometimes, Nothing but Blue Skies was barely readable.  To this day, it remains 80 pages short of unread for me with no intent to ever pick it back up. To interject a new arguement though, I can’t say enough though about David James Duncan.  The section of The River Why discussing the weight of a scientist’s frozen brain was absolute comedic brilliance. Cheers, Ivan

Response:

Excellent point on McGuane’s rehashing of the same plot line and though he can make his rehash interesting sometimes, Nothing but Blue Skies was barely readable.  To this day, it remains 80 pages short of unread for me with no intent to ever pick it back up. To interject a new arguement though, I can’t say enough though about David James Duncan.  The section of The River Why discussing the weight of a scientist’s frozen brain was absolute comedic brilliance.

I read "The River Why" not long ago and thoroughly enjoyed it. It was actually assigned to one of my sons’ high school english class to read. — Charlie…

Response:

: I read "The River Why" not long ago and thoroughly enjoyed it. It was : actually assigned to one of my sons’ high school english class to : read. Beautiful stuff indeed.  So good, I can’t bring myself to read Duncan’s other work in case it doesn’t match up.  I guess I’m losing my optimistic side… — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

Question:

anyone interested in motorized bellyboats

Response:

anyone interested in motorized bellyboats

I would be interested to see one, just for the heck of it.  I don’t know if I’d ever actually use it.  That would just depend on the top speed.

Response:

yes!!   One difference, tho-   i use 2 ea  5′ peices of 15" lo-head irrigation pipe for pontoons and the frame allows me to be down in the water just over my legs.  the rear of the "system" has a mount for a small elec motor and a place for a big deep cycle battery.  Im close to 300# and belly boats are not made for guys my size!!!    However motorizing a "U" tube or regular floater has been done and a catalogue was available some 3 years ago.  Check with one of the local fly shops, or inquire to guides-  they have the exposure to things like that…..  if they are not too busy fishing!!! .

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Question:

GRAND CANYON TRIP REPORT (a fictitious account)

 Nicely written/related.  Reading your account makes me yearn for the Canyon.  Hmmmm, wait 17 years, pay $700 plus in fees and risk the no-mercy permit system, or go now, avoid the inane bureaucracy and risk $3000-4000 Happy Boating, Chris Donohue WSU – Pullman, WA "I used up all my sick days, so I’m calling in dead."                                                         – Anonymous

Response:

GRAND CANYON TRIP REPORT (a fictitious account)

Great story;  what an adventure!  But, if the following is true: If one is to plan a clandestined run of the Canyon, best to do it during the off-season when not many people are likely to be encountered.  And of course, don’t get caught.  I hear the fine for running the Canyon without a permit is in the $3000-4000 range!!!   WOWWW!

why not just get a "cancellation permit" and run the river legal? Are there not plenty of open slots off season? — Chris

Response:

GRAND CANYON TRIP REPORT (a fictitious account)

Hummm!!! "Fictitious account"????  Sounds fishy to me.  A few months ago Rocky wants to know from this group how to avoid rangers with radios on the Grand and now this story??!!!?  :-)

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| GRAND CANYON TRIP REPORT (a fictitious account) | | | Hummm!!! "Fictitious account"????  Sounds fishy to me.  A few months ago | Rocky wants to know from this group how to avoid rangers with radios on | the Grand and now this story??!!!?  :-) He was prob’ly just researchin’ the story just like any other fiction writer would. Of course, perhaps there was _other_ research involved in ensuring the story had dramatic impact and audience appeal with a feeling of truth. Let’s see what other tales Rocky comes up with. SYITP (see you in the pool) Ken

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why not just get a "cancellation permit" and run the river legal? Are there not plenty of open slots off season? — Chris

Actually I tried calling over 40 times last fall and didn’t get a cancellation.  They can be had, but it’s getting tougher and tougher to get them.  I don’t think it’s any easier getting cancellations in winter than in other months, because they reserve so few for the off-season anyway. -Rocky

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What would the probablity of success be? ;-

Response:

What would the probablity of success be? ;-

Probability best if you go November or December.  Good if you go January or February, or October.  Next time I hear Joe plans on going in October because there’s no motorized rafts permitted that month and the weather is still pretty warm (highs 80s).   -Rocky

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: why not just get a "cancellation permit" and run the river legal? : Actually I tried calling over 40 times last fall and didn’t get a            ^ : cancellation. : -Rocky Ummm, don’t you mean ‘Joe’ called? Steve — Steve Cramer                     Test Scoring & Reporting Services      Sometimes you never can University of Georgia                    always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593                      least expect the most.

Response:

: why not just get a "cancellation permit" and run the river legal? : Actually I tried calling over 40 times last fall and didn’t get a           ^ : cancellation. : -Rocky Ummm, don’t you mean ‘Joe’ called? Steve —

Oh, NO, Rocky didn’t mean "I" as in the first person.  He meant "I" as in an *initial*.  Another initial that Joe uses is "G". Isn’t that right, Rocky? Jackie                                  _                        _   _        _   _                     \                      / /       / /                     \                        "          "                         `                                        ,sSSs,,                         )w/(       ,sSS..)/{)                       <<..       sSSS_v)/                      )<*      sSS[(_]___         o                                                 o                             \     o      o                                              \  o            o                                  `                                                    o           o               o                                                  o GASP! – A forum for Gulf (of Mexico) Area Sea Paddlers http://www.intelenet.net/clubs/gasp/

Response:

GRAND CANYON TRIP REPORT (a fictitious account)      The Grand Canyon is perhaps the finest river trip in the world.  A minimum of 225 miles must be traversed through the canyon to be able to put-in and take-out on roads.  The Colorado runs through the National Park in this area, and a permit is required.  It is a BIG DEAL.  Only approximately 350 private permits are issued per year.  If you put your name on the waiting list last year, you go behind 6000 other permit seekers.  That translates to 6000/350=17 YEARS before you get your permit!!!  Granted, for each permit you can have 20 people and stay in the canyon 14-30 days, but is there a place for the non-wealthy person that wants to go on a shorter trip, alone, or with only one or two others?  Should he/she just wait 17 years for such a permit, and then put to waste all those people spots and extra time that the permit allows?  For some, this is just too outrageous.  Better to become an outlaw and do the run without a permit.      Such was the attitude of one adventure seeker I know ("Joe").   Sometime in December, when a week could be taken off, the trip was planned.  Carefully -mind you.  Timing is critical.  No motorized craft are permitted in the canyon from September 15-December 15.  One doesn’t want a ranger speeding up behind you and catching you.  Such an event happened to me in Canyonlands National Park in 1994 when I was doing a solo trip from Loma to Hite through Cataract Canyon.  It would be nice to be able to locate rangers in the canyon to avoid any contact.  A CB radio was brought along.  At the South Rim, the rangers would not tell Joe what frequency they used.  All he got out of them was "the radios don’t work down in the canyon."  Perhaps they use special frequencies reserved for law enforcement people.  Hence the CB was not taken on the river.  How about put-ins?  Lees Ferry is the normal spot swarming with rangers, though Joe, having never done the Canyon before, didn’t know what the Lees Ferry area looked like.  Instead, he tried to put in 15 miles upstream at Glen Canyon Dam.  Upon arrival at Glen Canyon Dam, he noticed that there was no road down to the river there, and the walls are nearly vertical.  In the Dam visitor center, a kind woman informed Joe that there was a trail down to the river on river left just below the dam, but it was treacherous and takes about a half hour down.  Joe decided that this wasn’t the best idea, so decided to take his chances at Lees Ferry, perhaps launching at night when nobody could see.  Joy entered Joe’s heart when the lady informed him that they were releasing 13000-19000 cfs from the dam.  He had thought there would only be 8000 cfs in the river (as stated on the Colorado Flow Page).   More water = faster travel and funner rapids!      Off to Lees Ferry he went, arriving in the afternoon about 2 pm.   From the highway, a road several miles long leads down to the river at Lees Ferry.  It seemed terribly easy to get down to the river without anybody spotting him.  He settled on a spot by the Paria Riffle, just downstream of the Paria River, by some mobile home type areas, but right next to the water.  There was a nice large parking area and lots of shrubs/trees that the clandestined activitiy of loading the kayak could be accomplished at.  The normal put-in spot could be viewed about a half mile upstream.  The plan was to get everything out/off of the truck (the kayak as quickly as possible, since such a sight is a dead give-away), load up everything into the kayak, then drive back up to the little town of Marble Canyon and find somebody to drive the truck to near the take-out – Las Vegas.  Joe was thinking of finding a party of two or more going to Las Vegas, and having them leave his truck in the Excaliber (or Luxor) parking lot.  Joe would then return to the boat at dusk and launch.  At the takeout (Temple Bar on Lake Mead), he would get a lift into Las Vegas, drive back and pick up the kayak.  Such was the plan.  As he was loading the kayak, a car drove by and then down to the same spot Joe was at.  Very apprehensive at first, Joe hid everything that might give away his planned activity and approached the vehicle.   The Gods were in Joe’s favor!  The vehicle contained three foreigners – an Aussie, an Englishwoman, and an Israeli all in their 20s-early 30s.   Joe asked, "Sightseeing?" and so began a productive conversation.  The three were staying at the hostel in Page and just mosying around seeing whatever there was to see.  Just PERFECT!  Out of Joe’s mouth came the plan to run the river and the need for someone to drive his truck to Las Vegas.  He offered them $40 if they’d do it.  It turns out the Israeli, named Udi, actually was not with the other two, but was just bumming rides from people going around the country.  He had to get to LA in the next couple weeks to fly home.  After about a half hour of thought, Udi agreed to take the truck.  Joe told Udi he’d give him $60 if he went so far as to leave the truck at the take-out (Temple Bar on Lake Mead) instead of Las Vegas, and this he agreed to.  Joe planned 7 more days on the river, and told Udi, "you must have the truck at Temple Bar by dusk eight days from now."    So Joe took off into the wild, still anxious about a ranger spotting him in the first few miles.        Having launched around 3:30 pm the first day, not much distance could be made.  The days are short in December (10 hours of light), so every daylight hour is precious.  Passing the Navajo Bridge after several miles with no signs of rangers, Joe knew he was out of danger.   It grew dark after he had paddled 8 or 9 miles.  Badger Creek rapid was run in twilight.  The next four miles were quite exciting in the dark. Coming up on Soap Creek he noticed a couple lights.  Afraid it might be the law, he avoided contact with the campers, but paddled just past them as the Soap Creek rapid began, pulling over to the side to camp.   Paddling though a rapid such as Soap Creek was not smart in the dark – espially never having seen it before.  Quickly setting up his tent, he settled in for a fine meal of split-pea soup, bread, and cheese (to be had the next two nights as well), with hot chocolate to top it off.   Laying in the sleeping bag, he quickly fell asleep starting to read (around 8 pm).  In the night he heard what sounded like people walking around his tent.  Waking up at 4 am, he continued to read his recently purchased book by JW Powell, "The Exploration of the Colorado and Its Canyons".  In it he read about Powell’s group travelling through Marble Canyon and then reaching the Grand Canyon.  He also brought along "Cadillac Desert" which contained an abundance of information on the politics of water control in the West.        Before the first sign of light, Joe got up and stalked over to where the other campers were.  They must have hiked in, for there was no raft by the river.  And there was only one tent, so not very many people were there.  He wasn’t worried anymore.  He went back and started on a run up Soap Creek Canyon for almost an hour (getting up the canyon probably  2 miles or so before returning).  The water had dropped during the night – he’d be paddling on 13000 cfs today.  Joe went over to meet the camping couple, who were trying their luck at fishing.  He asked if they’d take some video of him going through Soap Creek Rapid, which they obliged him.  He was off at 9 am.   The boat he paddled was an old fiberglass Phoenix, something of a hybrid sea/whitewater kayak – probably about 90 gallons, 14 ft.  It was banged up from other rivers, and had been patched a year ago.  It leaked horribly, the outfitting was falling out (in particular a loose right hip pad), but it was fast.   Luckily Joe brought a sponge and bilge pump, which he had to use every half hour to remove the inch of water that accumulated on the bottom of the kayak.  Such a large boat is not great for playing, but since Joe wasn’t planning on much of that, the Phoenix was an ideal kayak for the journey.  If he had one, a nice sea kayak would have been preferred.   Paddling most of the time he was on the water, very good time was made on the journey.  The second day he made it to Nankoweap (about 42 miles from Soap Creek), passing House Rock Rapid, Stanton’s Cave, and the beautiful Vasey’s Paradise on the way.  Initially he had trouble finding Stanton’s Cave, looking up a gully that was actually just upstream of it.  Giving up after almost an hour of searching, he continued on paddling, only to spot the cave clearly from the river.  It is fenced off inside to help promote the BLACK Bat to roost in there once more.   In the side canyons above Nankoweap several deer were spotted among the mesquite bushes.  Around mile 40 a group of 5-6 rafts was passed (clearly a private party), though no contact was made.  At Nankoweap the guidebook states there is a long rapid (Grand Canyon class 3), but which is really not more than a class one.  Joe tried to camp at side canyons with fun hikes that he would do in the morning, and also ones with driftwood that he could build a small fire for warmth with.  Such was Nankoweap.  Fires are only permitted in the off-season (October through March), and all traces must be removed.  Joe didn’t take out the ashes (very minor amounts), but usually threw them in the river.  Of course Joe did pack out all solid human waste and trash.      The next morning he rose before dawn and started on the run/hike to see the springs a few miles up the canyon, and also the Indian ruins.   The stream here is perennial, with fresh, clear, cold water running down it.  It all originates up at the springs which are a good hike away.   The water seeps out of the ground in several spots up there, and there are many reeds growing around the springs.  Going fast, running much of

… read more »

Response:

    GRAND CANYON TRIP REPORT (a fictitious account)                     <big ol’ snip         realated by Rocky Contos               Thanks for the great story!  Too bad "Joe" is fictictious, sounds like     a hell of a paddler!

Response:

Question:

Hi there, Anyone have advice on driftboats?  We live in Seattle and can’t help but slobber at the parade of drift dories you see on the rivers around here.  From what I’ve been able to gather, it seems 16 feet is a good all around size but what about materials?  Wood, aluminum or fiberglass?  Wood seems to be making a comeback. Can fiberglass be durable enough? Hmmm. What about necessary gizmos and accessories? Help!

Darren Wooden driftboats can be very nice.  Can last a long time if you take care of them.  But they do take more maintenance than a glass or aluminum boat. Wood boats arn’t cheap if you buy a new one.  Some of the used ones can be pretty junky.   Jim

Response:

Mr Gehrke, is this you speaking or the imposter? how do we know? (I thought you resigned from this group.)   BWalter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jim.  If you’re going to do it . . . do it right!  Spend the money.  Its cheap enough entertainment as it is.  Beats hanging around in the bars. Trust me. George Gehrke Mr. Gink

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi there, Anyone have advice on driftboats?  We live in Seattle and can’t help but slobber at the parade of drift dories you see on the rivers around here.  From what I’ve been able to gather, it seems 16 feet is a good all around size but what about materials?  Wood, aluminum or fiberglass?  Wood seems to be making a comeback. Can fiberglass be durable enough? Hmmm. What about necessary gizmos and accessories? Help! Darren Wooden driftboats can be very nice.  Can last a long time if you take care of them.  But they do take more maintenance than a glass or aluminum boat. Wood boats arn’t cheap if you buy a new one.  Some of the used ones can be pretty junky. Jim

JIM tells you correct.  Wood boats are higher in maintenance but are also heavier to handle around the trailer. Fiberglass with a Jell-Coated Bottom such as a Don Hill will last you the rest of your life.  Metal boats (aluminum) are noisy and cold and hang up on rocks with a vengence.  Don’t ever commit to an aluminum drift boat.  BIG mistake!  All day in a cold river and your feet will be talking too you.  16 feet is exactly the best size as it floats shallower than a 14 footer and you can haul more and/or you don’t have to work as hard holding an oared position while you cast. Remember, overall a McKenzie Drift Boat Design is a two person operation.  One rows and one fishes.  You can go alone but it will be anchor and fish or dead drift and fish.  It works but not as efficiently with any boat. Don Hill (Springfield Or PH: 541-747-7430) Drift Boats are strong and have all the design features you need.  They have a very nice front casting deck with stripping line area and hip brace recess so you can stand without fear of falling.  You will have GOBS of storage and plent of storage space and even a large floor area for extra coolers and gear. You will want a quick release anchoring system and of course lead anchors, which I sometimes make special for friends at only a dollar a pound plus shipping.  You will want two anchors.  One for front and rear. You will need rope, and three oars.  (A backup or spare)  You will need to buy a trailer.  Don Hill does it all.  If you call him, say hello for me. I’ve owned one of his boats for over ten years now.  It has seen the wars on volcano rock rivers, boulders, and gravel bars.  It is the kind of boat I have put my life at stake in and it has always come through. If you have never shot "The Narrows" on the No-Name River here with me . . . you won’t know what I mean.  Ray Baker has owned a lot of drift boats in his guiding career and a Don Hill  boat had always been high on his list. There are other McKenzie Brand of Drift Boats but dollar for dollar, a Hill boat will serve you well.  They take a lot of abuse. When just starting out in this arena of fly fishing or fishing, you will need to spend some bucks to set yourself up right . . . because if you don’t, where a drift boat will take you . . . and you WILL GO THERE NOW, you will be glad you did.  Remember to have life-vests for everyone aboard and never have them hidden away. Hang your wooden oars vertically off some wall with none of it standing on the floor so your oars don’t ever take a warp or bend.  Never store your oars horizonally, anywhere.  Always hang them up. This is all the advise I have for now.  I’ve been drift boat fishing all my life.  I think you can count on what I offer here with confidence. It is also the safest kind of boat to own for the family and they are very stable.  Whatever you do, do NOT purchase a Clackacraft as you will be sorry in a number of ways.  Cheap is not the way to go in this arena Jim.  If you’re going to do it . . . do it right!  Spend the money.  Its cheap enough entertainment as it is.  Beats hanging around in the bars. Trust me. George Gehrke Mr. Gink

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Fiberglass is plenty durable for all but the roughest conditions.  I have a glass reinforced wood boat, which serves me well in the lower reaches of puget sound rivers, but I wouldn’t use it in rougher waters. I’ve had wood and fiberglass.  Fiberglas is much easier to care for, but wood is much cooler.  Especially if you build it yourself.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi there, Anyone have advice on driftboats?  We live in Seattle and can’t help but slobber at the parade of drift dories you see on the rivers around here.  From what I’ve been able to gather, it seems 16 feet is a good all around size but what about materials?  Wood, aluminum or fiberglass?  Wood seems to be making a comeback. Can fiberglass be durable enough? Hmmm. What about necessary gizmos and accessories? Help! Hi Darren I own a wood drift boat.  They are beautiful but do take a bit of extra maintenance.  Fiber glass is very good and I personally think the Hyde drift boat is top of the line.  You can contact those people at 208-529-4343. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

Hi there, Anyone have advice on driftboats?  We live in Seattle and can’t help but slobber at the parade of drift dories you see on the rivers around here.  From what I’ve been able to gather, it seems 16 feet is a good all around size but what about materials?  Wood, aluminum or fiberglass?  Wood seems to be making a comeback. Can fiberglass be durable enough? Hmmm. What about necessary gizmos and accessories? Help!

Response:

Can fiberglass be durable enough?

Hi Darren, Don’t know much about driftboats but I was on the Yakima with a guide recently in a Lavro driftboat (fiberglass).  I asked him about durability and he said Lavro (they’re in Monroe, I think) guarantees the hull for life for recreational users and 5 years for guides.  His is still in good shape after 6 years. I don’t know any more about them, though. BTW, no affiliation with Lavro. If you become expert on the subject I’d be interested in your findings. If my wife knew I was even THINKING about spending big dough on some 16 foot garage monster. . .<g Good Luck, August Kristoferson Watercolor Fish Art http://www.eskimo.com/~augustk

Response:

Hi there, Anyone have advice on driftboats?  We live in Seattle and can’t help but slobber at the parade of drift dories you see on the rivers around here.  From what I’ve been able to gather, it seems 16 feet is a good all around size but what about materials?  Wood, aluminum or fiberglass?  Wood seems to be making a comeback. Can fiberglass be durable enough? Hmmm. What about necessary gizmos and accessories? Help!

In my area in southwest Montana,  I’d have to say that the 15-16′ fiberglass drift boat is the most popular.  However, from what I know of the river’s in your area on the west coast, I’d consider aluminum.  Wood is nice, quiet, and warm, but the upkeep is high. Don’t think fiberglass is durable enough for your coastal rivers.  As far as the gizmos go, I’d suggest anchor system and plenty of watertight storage.  Seat configuration is different on the coast, I think.  I’d try and talk to a couple of guides in the area who aren’t selling a line of boats.  Good luck! — Dave Kumlien Montana Troutfitters 1716 W. Main St., Bozeman, MT 59715 http://www.gomontana.com/Business/Trout/trout.html http://www.ffa.com/montana/montanatroutfitters.html

Response:

Hi there, Anyone have advice on driftboats?

snip Hey Darren- 16 ft drift boats give you a little more room, but turn slower than a 15′. I have a Alumaweld 15′ that has been around since Jesus was in high school!  I am very happy with mine.  After a day on the river, I just tip it up and run a hose over it for a couple of minutes.  I could not tell you the difference in "stickiness" on rocks as compared with a glass boat, but I have not had any problems.  I would think that Aluminum has to be stronger than fiberglass when your bouncing off the rocks MTCW. Hope this helps — Keep their Heads Up! Bob Crossley Tillamook Country Smoker, Inc.

Response:

Hi there, Anyone have advice on driftboats?  We live in Seattle and can’t help but slobber at the parade of drift dories you see on the rivers around here.  From what I’ve been able to gather, it seems 16 feet is a good all around size but what about materials?  Wood, aluminum or fiberglass?  Wood seems to be making a comeback. Can fiberglass be durable enough? Hmmm. What about necessary gizmos and accessories? Help!

Hi Darren I own a wood drift boat.  They are beautiful but do take a bit of extra maintenance.  Fiber glass is very good and I personally think the Hyde drift boat is top of the line.  You can contact those people at 208-529-4343. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

Question:

writes: Do people routinely use this technique?  It seems to me that you can just about always get further downstream and quarter upstream, mend upstream and get an easier dragfree drift.  

I think most people consider the downstream mend as a tension technique, but it doesn’t have to be.  One of the reasons to make a downstream mend to help your drift is to throw an elbow into the line which will make it easier to shake out extra line for a downstream drift without moving the fly. You can use the elbow for the extra surface tension to pull against to feed line as long as you don’t pull too hard against it.  Sort of like this:                                                                                                                                                            / Also, sometimes you need to make a downstream mend because the water closer to you has slowed down in relation to the fly and if you don’t mend it will cause tension and thus drag.  One of the things to keep in mind when you’re having a tough time with a drift is that if mending in one direction doesn’t work, try mending it the other.  And remember it may not always be in your best interest to mend the entire line but rather only specific sections of it.                                 Hope this helps,                                        Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Schools Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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The  down and across drift applys to wet fly and streamer fishing. You want to apply a swimming motion to the fly and present it at a sideway profile to the fish. When you use this method strip the fly back to you at the end of the drift and it looks like a bait fish swimming upstream.  The method you describe about casting upstream and mending line is a nymphing method. Totally different. This is called a Lisenering lift. Where you cast upstream, lifting the rod tip as the fly approaches you to remove the slack and then lowering the rod tip as the fly passes your position. All the while keeping your rod tip in position with the fly through out the drift. Some of the newer guys like to call this high stick nymphing. Call it what you like it is a effective way to nymph. I could go into more detail, but I think you get the picture.                                          Mark Heskett

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Do people routinely use this technique?  It seems to me that you can just about always get further downstream and quarter upstream, mend upstream and get an easier dragfree drift.  If you do the down stream thing you have to wobble the rod to get more line out or mend a lot of line downstream putting you at a greater distance from your fly yet this seems to be a common way to fish everything from open streams to pocketwater. Am I missing something?

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Down and across is an extremely effective method of presenting a dry or emerger to selective fish in flat water….the ONLY successful method in many Spring Creek situations…                         Mike in PDX                "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                                            Tom McGuane

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: Down and across is an extremely effective method of presenting a dry or : emerger to selective fish in flat water….the ONLY successful method : in many Spring Creek situations… Besides this good advice, why not try and cover the entire "clock" from each position?  Up and across, followed by down and across, both sides, then move down or upstream. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Do people routinely use this technique?  It seems to me that you can just about always get further downstream and quarter upstream, mend upstream and get an easier dragfree drift.  If you do the down stream thing you have to wobble the rod to get more line out or mend a lot of line downstream putting you at a greater distance from your fly yet this seems to be a common way to fish everything from open streams to pocketwater. Am I missing something?

Hi, Contrary to popular belief, a drag-free drift is not always the most effective presentation. Fishing for steelhead, salmon, shad, stripers, (and yes, even trout), it is often more effective to fish the fly with movement against the current. Of course, one can fish down-and-across, drag-free, which offers the great advantage of showing the fly before the leader. I hope this helps,   Alan.   Alan Barnard   Kiene’s Fly Shop   Sacramento, Ca.   WWW Fly Tyer   http://www.ns.net/~barnard

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do people routinely use this technique?  It seems to me that you can just about always get further downstream and quarter upstream, mend upstream and get an easier dragfree drift.  If you do the down stream thing you have to wobble the rod to get more line out or mend a lot of line downstream putting you at a greater distance from your fly yet this seems to be a common way to fish everything from open streams to pocketwater. Am I missing something? Hi, Contrary to popular belief, a drag-free drift is not always the most effective presentation. Fishing for steelhead, salmon, shad, stripers, (and yes, even trout), it is often more effective to fish the fly with movement against the current. Of course, one can fish down-and-across, drag-free, which offers the great advantage of showing the fly before the leader. I hope this helps,   Alan.

     Quartering downstream is a tight line technique, and probably about the oldest technique for fly fishing there is.  Typically used for wet fly and streamer fishing, casting across the current allows the fly to sink.  At the end of the drift, the fly swings in the current (on a tight line) and rises through the water profile until the fly is hanging in the current downstream of you.  To get more depth before the swing, you can make your cast straight across or quartering upstream.   Most hits seem to come as the fly swings.  This can be an effective technique for nymph fishing as well.  (Quartering downstream minimizes "drift" time and maximizes the "swing" time for each cast). John

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Hi John, Of course, one can fish down-and-across, drag-free, which offers the great advantage of showing the fly before the leader. Quartering downstream is a tight line technique, and probably about the oldest technique for fly fishing there is.

The drag-free downstream technique I was referring to is the now common practice on spring creeks of casting downstrream and feeding line at a rate slightly faster than the current. This can be a deadly method on finicky fish that have been heavily fished over. Best wishes,   Alan.   Alan Barnard   Kiene’s Fly Shop   Sacramento, Ca.   WWW Fly Tyer   http://www.ns.net/~barnard

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Question:

All the comments so far are quite interesting to me because I have yet to own a rod over 8′ in length. I built a 8′   6 wt.  st croix and a 7′2" 3 wt. st croix for myself two years ago and have only used the 8′ a dozen times.  The short light rod is just a ball to use and I have caught some good fish on it!  1 to 4 lb largemouth, tuns o sunfish, 61/2 lb. brown, 9 lb carp,  4 1/2 lb smallmouth buffalo.There aren’t many things I would trade my small short rod for. The superiority of one man’s opinion over another’s is never so great as when the opinion is about fishing. Tim ILBTim

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I find a 9ft quality 5 wt. idealfdor all fresh water fishing. Unless you are fishing very small streams stick wit what you have unless money is no object.

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Short rods definitely are useful and fun, especially on small brushy streams.  Lamiglass makes some short rods, with the smallest around 51/2 ft.  St. Croix used to make some nice ones back in the days of glass, but I have no idea what their line is now.

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Short rods are advantageous in tight conditions with canopy type overgrowth.  A long rod in this situation would always be stuck in the canopy.  In areas where most of the cover is on the banks and not overhanging the river, a longer rod will allow you to  backcast over the obstructions more easily, is more accurate (like having a longer finger to point with) and definitely gives you better line handling and mending.  So as many answers to  fly fishing questions goes,  "It all depends".  Make your choice depending on the conditions or personal preferance. Lee Wulff once said that he didn’t fish short rods because they were better, but because they were more challenging and he enjoyed fishing them more than long rods.  Check out Joan Wulff’s book for some specialty casts to use with short rods.                                                               Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Short rods are advantageous in tight conditions with canopy type overgrowth.  A long rod in this situation would always be stuck in the canopy.  In areas where most of the cover is on the banks and not overhanging the river, a longer rod will allow you to  backcast over the obstructions more easily, is more accurate (like having a longer finger to point with) and definitely gives you better line handling and mending.  So as many answers to  fly fishing questions goes,  "It all depends".   Make your choice depending on the conditions or personal preferance. Lee Wulff once said that he didn’t fish short rods because they were better, but because they were more challenging and he enjoyed fishing them more than long rods.  Check out Joan Wulff’s book for some specialty casts to use with short rods.                                                              Dan Dan Gracia                                                             Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

Re: Short fly rods Don’t forget that long rods can really come in handy if you fish stillwater from a belly boat. I fish an out of production (I think) Orvis 10 1/2′ in my tube. The minor inconviences are easily outweighed by the advantages of the extra length. Like you said, "It all depends…" Good luck, Nash

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IMHO, I have a Sage 7.5′ 4wt and I love it! The majority of fishing I do is on small spring streams and it is perfect.  I have other rods, longer and heavier, but this one is definitely my favorite. D.P.

The best rod I own is an Orvis "Tippet" 7.5′ 3wt 1.5 oz.. I use it for trout and panfish. It’s the first rod that I grab and the one I use when I dream about fishing.

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I’ve used my Orvis Flea, 6 1/2′ 4 weight almost exclusively for the last two years. Originally bought it for small s.w. Michigan streams with low canopies but have had success on local northern Indiana ponds and even the Yellow Breeches in PA. You need a very smooth knot between leader and fly line because you’ll probably reel in that much to reach fish or to use net. On the plus side, almost any size fish gives your outfit a battle and the shorter rod makes you work on better casting mechanics for longer casts.

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IMO, the biggest disadvantage to short rods is their limited ability to mend line, especially on big rivers.   I use a 9 foot rod for 95% of the fishing I do.  On smaller rivers, like the local Cache la Poudre, I prefer an 8 foot; shorter rods seem to work better for shorter casts. When I get rich some day, working for the government (right) I’d like to get a 9.5 foot six or seven weight for nymphinig big rivers. Generally speaking, the bigger the water, the bigger the rod. — -Wayne Trzyna

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Doug, The Mighty Mite is a 5wt!  You may just be able to get a nice Salmon or Steelhead if you are careful.  Most likely, you could not get a Steelie or Salmon on a 6′ 1wt.  The MM is and was not a gimmic when sold.  It was offered as a short all around rod.  They are rare and collectable, dont break it! Sean

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IMHO, it depends on where you plan on fishing.  If you’re on the big rivers, I’d go with a longer rod.  Physically, they are capable of putting out more line (higher rod tip speed, etc.).  If, however, you’re like me and are ducking overhanging branches and the like, I would STRONGLY recommend a short rod.  I have a 7′2" 4wt that I absoulutely LOVE!  My first rod was a 9′6" 5wt that was nice, just had to be so careful about tree fishing.  Also, I really don’t think the added length makes too much of a difference in relation to distance unless you start talking about throwing flies way out there, because I’ve never been let down by the short rod in trying to hit a spot.  My suggestion, go with the short! Terry

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Also, who do you think won the war between the rods?  Lefty Kreh and the long rods? or Ed Shenk et al and the short ones?

Jim, I think a random sampling of rod vendors’ offerings is more than sufficient to answer this question. Rods 8ft or longer in length are the rule, with rods under 8ft being the overwhelming minority. (In fact, this is probably also true if the criterion were 9ft or longer for a "long" rod.) This is not to criticize short rod proponents; only to point out that there is very little question on this subject if you look to the marketplace as your measurement of "who won the war". Regards, Fred

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I am interested in knowledge about short fly rods, particulary fiberglass but also graphite.  Line weights 3 – 5.  Also, rods that are for sale.   There have been waves of interest in these small rods in the past, probably started by Lee Wulff and Arnold Gingrich, but also Ed Shenk.  I am interested in your experience with the short ones, different manufacturers, lengths, shortcomings, etc., not commercialized opinion driven by marketing usually published in the fly fishing journals.  Also, who do you think won the war between the rods?  Lefty Kreh and the long rods? or Ed Shenk et al and the short ones? Thanks. J. H.

Jim: Just my own experience, but I have a 6′6" Loomis GL3 (graphite) 3-weight that I really like to use on small streams.  I have caught trout, largemouth and smallmouth bass, and lots of panfish on it and really love to use it. It does, however, leave a lot to be desired if you are fishing in a wind.  I think that part has as much to do with the line weight as the length, but the two are probably related. Finally, if your small stream fishing includes dropping nymphs along cutbanks without actual casting, a 9′ rod works a lot better for that. Still, there is something that is just FUN about throwing a light line and a tiny fly on a short rod.  I think it makes me a better fisherman with my other rods. Thanks, Bob

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IMHO, I have a Sage 7.5′ 4wt and I love it! The majority of fishing I do is on small spring streams and it is perfect.  I have other rods, longer and heavier, but this one is definitely my favorite. D.P.

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    IMHO, short rods (beginning with the bamboo type) have always been of interest to some fishermen because there have been promoters of fishing with them, especially the late Lee Wulff.  He could cast very long distances with a short rod, as well as land very large fish.  In the world of bamboo, a very heavy material, a short rod was a light rod.       The advent of graphite has eliminated weight as a consideration in rod length.  So now we can return to consideration of basic principles like the length of the rod as a lever for casting or its applicability for handling or manipulating line on the water.  And in this regard, a longer rod is preferable, all other things being equal.  Many of the light weight rods (by line size) are now relatively lengthy – few under 8′ and many at 9′ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The short rod interest has really confused me as of late also.  I have always favored a shortish rod for the fishing I do in the Sierra and High  Sierra.  There really is no scientific fact for this, they are simply easier to carry and cast in tight conditions with light line. The trout are seldom over 12", so the short, light rod makes fair game of them.   The 1oz, 1 and 2wt. rods are gimmics in my opinion.  I have used one particular model and felt I did the fish I caught some real harm, by not bringing them in quick enough. The rod simply wouldnt allow it. I was using the rod to get a feel for the action and casting abilities and comparing it to light cane rods.  While I know of no 1 or 2wt. cane rods, there was a significant difference between this rod and 3 and 4wt. cane.  The cane has the same sweet action and feel (heavier yes) but brought fish to the hand much faster. I believe this is another fad the industry is going through.  Much has been written over th past two years about short, light rods.  So much so, that the once common and inexpensive short cane rods have become the rage across the country.  This is both good and bad.  Bad, because I really cant afford to buy the SB 290’s and HI Tonka Princes any longer, at the rate I break them. . But good because, these really are decent rods and deserve some respect.  As with anything "collectable" the prices will certinly rise to unaffordability soon enough. Thoughts out there? Regards, Sean

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The short rod interest has really confused me as of late also.  I have always favored a shortish rod for the fishing I do in the Sierra and High Sierra.  There really is no scientific fact for this, they are simply easier to carry and cast in tight conditions with light line. The trout are seldom over 12", so the short, light rod makes fair game of them.   The 1oz, 1 and 2wt. rods are gimmics in my opinion.  I have used one particular model and felt I did the fish I caught some real harm, by not bringing them in quick enough. The rod simply wouldnt allow it. I was using the rod to get a feel for the action and casting abilities and comparing it to light cane rods.  While I know of no 1 or 2wt. cane rods, there was a significant difference between this rod and 3 and 4wt. cane.  The cane has the same sweet action and feel (heavier yes) but brought fish to the hand much faster. I believe this is another fad the industry is going through.  Much has been written over th past two years about short, light rods.  So much so, that the once common and inexpensive short cane rods have become the rage across the country.  This is both good and bad.  Bad, because I really cant afford to buy the SB 290’s and HI Tonka Princes any longer, at the rate I break them. . But good because, these really are decent rods and deserve some respect.  As with anything "collectable" the prices will certinly rise to unaffordability soon enough. Thoughts out there? Regards, Sean

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