Question:

Actually they are not. Change in angle of attack (not pitch)  changes the airspeed. Pitch change and angle of attack change are not always coincident, as we both well know. And of course, increased  pitch can indeed make the aircraft go up, since it can change the airspeed and therefore the power requirement, and the excess power causes the aircraft to climb.

As we say in my field, "Everything is deeply intertwingled."  Most control inputs on aircraft are NOT isolated in their effects.

Response:

Check out the latest instrument flying handbook (page 5-17). Entering a constant rate climb is different to managing a constant rate climb once you’re established – if you’re not entering it right and hence not getting established right then it probably is difficult to get it all sorted out. If you’re trying to do this in 500 foot chunks (pattern A, pattern B etc.) try a 3000 foot climb, that will give you plenty of time to work out all the relationships. Performance = power + attitude So know what power setting and what pitch angle gets the result you want, set those values and the plane will do what you want. Mat

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

Learn the pitch attitude on the AI and the power that give you specific performance. Maintain attitude/power setting to see if that gives you what you want and adjust accordingly. Just don’t chase the airspeed and VSI needles. Bracket it in with small pitch or power changes. Kind of like tracking a course .. track a heading .. evaluate it’s effect .. then change heading if needed. It might help to go out VFR and make a list of the attitude and power combos that give specific descent/climb/airspeed. Write these down and memorize them as starting points in the future. I think you’re on the right track with pitching to vertical speed and adjust airspeed with power.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

Well, I looked up "intertwingled", and I couldn’t find it. The nearest I  could find  is "intertwined" and "intermingled", so I will assume your word "intertwingled" is a coinage of a word to mean something between the two, or perhaps a combination thereof. The thing I fail to see is your point, unless you mean, for example, that there is an intertwingling when a  change of pitch results in a change of angle of attack which results in a change in airspeed which results in a change of the power required to maintain altitude, thus the aircraft cl;imbs. Which is what I said in the first place, so I agree.  It’s intertwingled.  So one could maintain that a pitch change is what makes the aircraft climb.   But it would indicate a lack of understanding, don’t you agree? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually they are not. Change in angle of attack (not pitch)  changes the airspeed. Pitch change and angle of attack change are not always coincident, as we both well know. And of course, increased  pitch can indeed make the aircraft go up, since it can change the airspeed and therefore the power requirement, and the excess power causes the aircraft to climb. As we say in my field, "Everything is deeply intertwingled."  Most control inputs on aircraft are NOT isolated in their effects.

Response:

Well, I looked up "intertwingled", and I couldn’t find it. The nearest I  could find  is "intertwined" and "intermingled", so I will assume your word "intertwingled" is a coinage of a word to mean something between the two, or perhaps a combination thereof.

You’re right, it’s a made up word, but it was coined by one of the key people in the field so it shows up from time to time. The thing I fail to see is your point, unless you mean, for example, that there is an intertwingling when a  change of pitch results in a change of angle of attack which results in a change in airspeed which results in a change of the power required to maintain altitude, thus the aircraft climbs.

Changing the pitch, changes the angle of attack, which increases lift and causes the plane to climb.  It also slows the plane down, which decreases lift.  Of course drag also plays into this, which all means that you just can’t change one control in isolation to the others no matter what you are trying to accomplish. Back when I was working for the Army, another Army lab nearby did some Human Engineering work with a fly-by-wire helicopter system.  They totally decoupled the controls as the pilot saw them:  The "collective" made you go up and down at a rate proportional to it’s displacment , the "cyclic" caused you to translate in the direction of it’s displacement, the pedals just rotated the aircraft at a speed proportional their displacment.  It evidentally drove anybody who really knew how to fly helicopters crazy as they wanted to put in the corrections that their training had conditioned them to know were required.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I looked up "intertwingled", and I couldn’t find it. The nearest I  could find  is "intertwined" and "intermingled", so I will assume your word "intertwingled" is a coinage of a word to mean something between the two, or perhaps a combination thereof. You’re right, it’s a made up word, but it was coined by one of the key people in the field so it shows up from time to time. The thing I fail to see is your point, unless you mean, for example, that there is an intertwingling when a  change of pitch results in a change of angle of attack which results in a change in airspeed which results in a change of the power required to maintain altitude, thus the aircraft climbs. Changing the pitch, changes the angle of attack, which increases lift and causes the plane to climb.  It also slows the plane down, which decreases lift.  Of course drag also plays into this, which all means that you just can’t change one control in isolation to the others no matter what you are trying to accomplish.

There may be a momentary increase in lift, which causes an acceleration upwards, but I would not call it "causing the plane to climb".  I think it is more aptly called "swooping", which takes place until the aircraft returns to steady state. Steady state climbing has nothing to do with increasing lift.  It is due to excess of power.   Lift is equal to weight as it was in level flight. (Yes I know: sum of upward forces = sum of downward forces, for the purists). And one other thing.  It is quite possible to change one control in isolation to the others.  Whjat is variable is the aircraft’s resulting performance. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Back when I was working for the Army, another Army lab nearby did some Human Engineering work with a fly-by-wire helicopter system.  They totally decoupled the controls as the pilot saw them:  The "collective" made you go up and down at a rate proportional to it’s displacment , the "cyclic" caused you to translate in the direction of it’s displacement, the pedals just rotated the aircraft at a speed proportional their displacment.  It evidentally drove anybody who really knew how to fly helicopters crazy as they wanted to put in the corrections that their training had conditioned them to know were required.

Response:

Well, I looked up "intertwingled", and I couldn’t find it. The nearest I  could find  is "intertwined" and "intermingled", so I will assume your word "intertwingled" is a coinage of a word to mean something between the two, or perhaps a combination thereof. You’re right, it’s a made up word, but it was coined by one of the key people in the field so it shows up from time to time.

Which field is that?  And who? Just curious, John

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I looked up "intertwingled", and I couldn’t find it. The nearest I  could find  is "intertwined" and "intermingled", so I will assume your word "intertwingled" is a coinage of a word to mean something between the two, or perhaps a combination thereof. You’re right, it’s a made up word, but it was coined by one of the key people in the field so it shows up from time to time. Which field is that?  And who?

Systems Analysis.  Tom DeMarco (principle guy at Yourdon).

Response:

Yes, I was taught to lead with a power setting. The instructor even had me make up a list of typical power settings and post them on the panel. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you know the power setting and pitch that will give you the desired performance it should be easy.  Just set the power and pitch and the plane will climb at the desired rate.  Same thing for descents.  Don’t chase the VSI. Mike MU-2 I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

– "ground zero" is clearing up, but the fallout from the towers still rains down around the world.

Response:

I struggled with this too until a seemingly obvious discovery was made; I wasn’t using the AI to set pitch.  After years of flying slippery gliders w/o AIs, and transitioning to  flying lightly loaded light aircraft, it never occurred to me to use the AI to set pitch in a climb or descent. Why?  Well, the slippery stuff is quite sensitive to pitch and not as stable as light planes, but since you fly it in turbulent conditions most of the time, and because they lack good visible references over the nose, and because power is constant (0), and because they are usually cranked over in a steep bank, I ended up using the airspeed most of time (the glider VSI is useless in determining pitch).  That is, look at the horizon then calibrate it by looking at the airspeed (esp airspeed trend).  Anyway, this works quite well in lightplanes, even under the hood when you combine it with the VSI…. at least up to a point… My instructors never really noticed except that my climbs and descents weren’t always as crisp as they should be.  I slowly discovered that I could use the AI to set a specific pitch attitude along with a specific rpm/mp to get a specific climb or descent.  One bar up, one bar down, etc.  I know the old pros here are probably snickering but I wonder if they specifically tell students how to use line widths on the AI to set up a specific pitch (?). No one told me that since my first instructional flights back in the 70s — and they probably should have covered up the AI then.  Otis, you were the first person in this post to specifically state what  one should do.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Learn the pitch attitude on the AI and the power that give you specific performance. Maintain attitude/power setting to see if that gives you what you want and adjust accordingly. Just don’t chase the airspeed and VSI needles. Bracket it in with small pitch or power changes. Kind of like tracking a course .. track a heading .. evaluate it’s effect .. then change heading if needed. It might help to go out VFR and make a list of the attitude and power combos that give specific descent/climb/airspeed. Write these down and memorize them as starting points in the future. I think you’re on the right track with pitching to vertical speed and adjust airspeed with power. I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

Just fly the airplane. Get used to it. Add some power, pitch up if needed, trim, and maintain steady climb. Take power off, pitch down if needed, trim, and keep a steady descent. Just get a feel for it — there’s nothing mechanical about it. Getting a feel for the airplane you fly will tell you how much of each to do so that you can arrive at the desired point quickly and without too much fishing for the right settings. Go out on your own with the airplane, better without instructor on board, nobody to contaminate your thought process and play a couple of hours in changing its configuration to desired climbs and descents until you become smooth. Go slow flight, back and forth until you get a sense for the acceleration and deceleration while doing pitch and power changes and keeping level or exact VSI numbers. At one point I had memorized the setting on the Archer, until they rebuilt the engine and it felt like it got more power, then I had to get resettled so that I could fly my IFR routines smoothly.  Forget about the physics discussions, most folks love to talk about a subject they lack — you need solid differential calculus to truly claim to understand how exactly the forces interact but thankfully it is not needed. Just fly the damn thing.         D.         PP_ASEL IA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

Yeah, find a power and pitch combo that will give you the performance you want.  When you want a certain constant rate climb just set your power, set your pitch(and maintain it) wait till the aircraft stabilizes and then make final corrections.  Usually the aircraft will stabilize at the target airspeed if you are patient and you won’t find yourself chasing needles. Use the VSI only as a trend instrument unless you have a Vario or IVSI, even then (1) Power,for climb (2) Pitch, to airspeed (3) verify Rate when stabilized at target airspeed.  With a little practice this sequence becomes automatic , and very reliable.  Once the numbers are determined the only variant factors are mainly, load(gross wt.), altitude, configuration , and C.G. Happy Flying R.Wallace CFIAIM

Response:

That’s how I was taught early on .. and I learned back in the 70s too. One bar .. two bar .. up .. down .. xxxx rpm. I think most problems chasing the needles come from dwelling on certain instruments and not maintaining a good scan with the AI as "home base". Actually .. there’s an old book I have laying around somewhere .. I can’t recall the exact title .. I want to say "Performance Flying’"??? Anyway it explains a lot of this and actually gives examples of attitude and power for several different aircraft. I’ll try to find it and post exact title. Don’t know if it’s still available or not.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I struggled with this too until a seemingly obvious discovery was made; I wasn’t using the AI to set pitch.

Response:

Thanks for all of your suggestions. Sounds like I need to go out and do a little experimenting with the plane on my own to find the right combinations of pitch/power to get the right results.

Response:

I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place.

I don’t want to get into a pitch/power argument here, but… You already have your constant airspeed climb and descent, right? Set up the exact same way. Note your climb or descent rate. Assuming a fixed pitch propeller, add or reduce power by 100 rpm increments, maintaining the same airspeed (you’re already trimmed for it, aren’t you?) until you get the rate you want. Now you’ll know the pitch/power combination for that rate in your airplane. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions?

You used the word "lag." So you already know the answer. WAIT the 5-6 seconds before you do anything else! – Mark Kolber APA, Denver, Colorado www.midlifeflight.com       email? replace "spamaway" with "mkolber

Response:

Okay Capt…..   when you are 100′ agl on final in your Boeing and your speed degrades, you push the nose down right…???     Read the Delta crash report at DFW many years ago and you will be enlightened…. John….. an almost 20,000 hour pilot who has is figured out

Response:

Excess power only means an airplane is capable of climbing……    increasing angle of attack makes it climb…. or changes the rate of climb

Response:

I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Many long years ago when I was in learning to fly instruments, I had the same problem. The trouble was that I found it very difficult to hold a constant pressure fore-and-aft on the yoke.  I solved the problem by locking my arm into position against the side wall of the aircraft and the arm rest.  If I needed to adjust elevators, I would move my whole arm slightly.  I could still adjust aileron with finger pressure.  Later, I learned what the trim tab was for. I still use the locked arm trick when it is bumpy.  It keeps the bumps from causing elevator inputs. The Comanche can be quite sensitive in pitch.  It works for me.  YMMV. Hank Henry A. Spellman Comanche N5903P

Response:

I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed,

Wow!!!  20,000+ hours and never knew that this was the way that I should be doing it.  Maybe I needed a different flight instructor.  :-)  :-) Power make the airplane go up and down….. Pitch  makes the airplane go fast or slow……. These are basic aerodynamic principles. Bob Moore ATP ASMEL  B-707, B-727, L-188 CFI  ASE-IA USN  S-2F, P-2V, P-3B PanAm (retired)

Response:

Power make the airplane go up and down….. Pitch  makes the airplane go fast or slow…….

        Not according to the FAA which recommends power to establish speed and pitch to stay on the glide slope.

Response:

"Pitch to the glideslope, power to the airspeed." That’s the way I was taught to fly jets, and that’s the way the autopilot does it. Bob Gardner

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, Wow!!!  20,000+ hours and never knew that this was the way that I should be doing it.  Maybe I needed a different flight instructor.  :-)  :-) Power make the airplane go up and down….. Pitch  makes the airplane go fast or slow……. These are basic aerodynamic principles. Bob Moore ATP ASMEL  B-707, B-727, L-188 CFI  ASE-IA USN  S-2F, P-2V, P-3B PanAm (retired)

Response:

Actually they are not. Change in angle of attack (not pitch)  changes the airspeed. Pitch change and angle of attack change are not always coincident, as we both well know. And of course, increased  pitch can indeed make the aircraft go up, since it can change the airspeed and therefore the power requirement, and the excess power causes the aircraft to climb. Unless, fo course, you are on the back side of the power curve, in which case… But I know you know all that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, Wow!!!  20,000+ hours and never knew that this was the way that I should be doing it.  Maybe I needed a different flight instructor.  :-)  :-) Power make the airplane go up and down….. Pitch  makes the airplane go fast or slow……. These are basic aerodynamic principles. Bob Moore ATP ASMEL  B-707, B-727, L-188 CFI  ASE-IA USN  S-2F, P-2V, P-3B PanAm (retired)

Response:

Power make the airplane go up and down….. Pitch  makes the airplane go fast or slow……. These are basic aerodynamic principles.

This always reminds me of the joke where the student goes out on the runway and jams the control wheel forward and the instructor asks what he’s doing and he says "when this thing hits 60, you push the throttle in and we’ll climb."  :-)

Response:

I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

If you know the power setting and pitch that will give you the desired performance it should be easy.  Just set the power and pitch and the plane will climb at the desired rate.  Same thing for descents.  Don’t chase the VSI. Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

Question:

Hello to all.  I subscribed to this NG two or so weeks ago and want to ask a question as I’m not sure if it’s OK.  I’ve seen some mixed responses to similar threads so I figured I better ask first. Q –  is it OK to list a rod for sale? Seems like a great NG with plenty of knowledgeable participants.  I can certainly learn allot here as I’m fairly new to the sport (about 3 years actively flyfishing).  I spend 80% of my flyfishing time on 2-3 rivers (the size of which would make most folks outside of NJ call them streams) in northwestern NJ.  The other 20% on lakes and ponds with my 4 yr. old son and 3yr old daughter and occasionally a trip up to the Beaverkill or Willowomac with a friend who introduced my to this great sport. Well, that’s it, don’t want to overdo the intro (most likely already did though). Regards to all. Natty

Response:

got dreadlocks?              john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello to all.  I subscribed to this NG two or so weeks ago and want to ask a question as I’m not sure if it’s OK.  I’ve seen some mixed responses to similar threads so I figured I better ask first. Q –  is it OK to list a rod for sale? Seems like a great NG with plenty of knowledgeable participants.  I can certainly learn allot here as I’m fairly new to the sport (about 3 years actively flyfishing).  I spend 80% of my flyfishing time on 2-3 rivers (the size of which would make most folks outside of NJ call them streams) in northwestern NJ.  The other 20% on lakes and ponds with my 4 yr. old son and 3yr old daughter and occasionally a trip up to the Beaverkill or Willowomac with a friend who introduced my to this great sport. Well, that’s it, don’t want to overdo the intro (most likely already did though). Regards to all. Natty

Response:

First of all, your name rox. Q –  is it OK to list a rod for sale?

If you start the title with "FS" or "For Sale" and only put it up once you should be fine.  If it is relatively rare or valuable, yet priced ridiculously low out of ignorance, just email me first with the info and I’ll tell you if you should post it here…. I can certainly learn allot here as I’m fairly new to the sport (about 3 years actively flyfishing).  I spend 80% of my flyfishing time on 2-3 rivers (the size of which would make most folks outside of NJ call them streams) in northwestern NJ.  The other 20% on lakes and ponds with my 4 yr. old son and 3yr old daughter and occasionally a trip up to the Beaverkill or Willowomac with a friend who introduced my to this great sport.

Ummm, I was told there would be no math…. Regards, Jeff

Response:

Hello to all.  I subscribed to this NG two or so weeks ago and want to ask a question as I’m not sure if it’s OK.  I’ve seen some mixed responses to similar threads so I figured I better ask first. Q –  is it OK to list a rod for sale?

        although no one would dare speak for the whole of this bunch of anarchists and nut cases, i will hazard the opinion that a few non-commercial offers of sale would not be considered bad form, even by fortenberry. wayno

Response:

Thx for the compliment, tip and offer….nothing rare or extraordinary though. Will follow your advice. Thx again  :-) Natty

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First of all, your name rox. Q –  is it OK to list a rod for sale? If you start the title with "FS" or "For Sale" and only put it up once you should be fine.  If it is relatively rare or valuable, yet priced ridiculously low out of ignorance, just email me first with the info and I’ll tell you if you should post it here…. I can certainly learn allot here as I’m fairly new to the sport (about 3 years actively flyfishing).  I spend 80% of my flyfishing time on 2-3 rivers (the size of which would make most folks outside of NJ call them streams) in northwestern NJ.  The other 20% on lakes and ponds with my 4 yr. old son and 3yr old daughter and occasionally a trip up to the Beaverkill or Willowomac with a friend who introduced my to this great sport. Ummm, I was told there would be no math…. Regards, Jeff

Response:

LOL…don’t I wish!  More like razor stubble. Natty

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – got dreadlocks?              john

Response:

<snip….mainly because somebody shoulda done it to Cooper a long, long time ago Near as I can figure it Hawkeye you must be somewhere on the wrong side of about 220 by now.  Gettin a bit long in the tooth for fly fishing…or just about anything else for that matter.  How’s about I just send you my address and I’ll take all that stuff off your hands? Meanwhile, welcome to ROFF and pay no mind to the bitey things in here……ain’t none of it real. Wolfgang who WOULD have written a treatise on "Fennimore Cooper’s Literary Offenses" if that hack Clemens hadn’t beat me to it!

Response:

Welcome to ROFF.  One off posts advertising private gear for sale are generally accepted without demur. Although you may be offered KY jelly from some participants, usually with explicit instructions !  Don

Question:

testing this news server and outlook express, we’ll see Thanks for those who offered assistance Wayne ——

Response:

My server shows it at 5:21pm 2/1/2k.  Get out the wrench, it worked. R Here’s your header and post as I see it:

Thanks, still gonna take some getting use to, the message download is taking forever, but since in this getup I’m not paying for the isp or the server, in theory I can save enough money to pay for a new Abel SW reel (10 wt) ——

Response:

My server shows it at 5:21pm 2/1/2k.  Get out the wrench, it worked. R Here’s your header and post as I see it: Path: news.flash.net!nntp.flash.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsgate.cuhk.edu.hk!ne ws.netfront.net!freenews.netfront.net!not-for-mail Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly read Organization: Netfront http://www.netfront.net/ Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: ip141.nashville17.tn.pub-ip.psi.net GMT) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Xref: news.flash.net rec.outdoors.fishing.fly:158136 testing this news server and outlook express, we’ll see Thanks for those who offered assistance Wayne ——

Response:

Thanks, still gonna take some getting use to, the message download is taking forever, but since in this getup I’m not paying for the isp or the server, in theory I can save enough money to pay for a new Abel SW reel (10 wt)

LMAO! You’re a friggin’ GENIUS, Wayne! ;^)

Response:

LMAO! You’re a friggin’ GENIUS, Wayne! ;^)

method to my madness trip…. Alas the server been down for 24 hrs now, back on the training wheels. <g Wayne Knight (remove nospam to respond via mail) Expert in the creation of  wind knots and tailing loops.

Response:

Question:

Here I am, enjoying the hospitality of the venerable Louie LaPlac.   As much as I have enjoyed the company of the legendary Joanne and Louie, the Orvis thing is true.  Here I sit surrounded by Orvis paraphenalia.  An Orvis lamp, Orvis garbage can – - – Orvis parachutes!!!   Even Orvis socks.   I can’t take this much longer.  T-Bone help.  Drive up here in your Orvis Jeep and save me. Peter Charles Dave LaCourse

Response:

Peter Charles drunkenly writes:

(snipperooooooo) << I can’t take this much longer.  T-Bone help.  Drive up here in your Orvis Jeep and save me. and is "mellow".  Don’t believe him.  Great guy, Peter.  Great wife, Delightfully Drunk Dave

Response:

wayno I’ve just had a wondeful dinner in the company of the legendary Joanne  . . . oh, and Dave too. have a nice day, Peter

Response:

fellers…11:47 pm and you’ve just had a wonderful dinner??  i sense that a case of sleemans must have been the appetizer, eh? BTW, peter, you’ll be happy to know that your old one weight was deftly handled by forty in the blue ridge and bent frequently in a nice arc with a feisty carolina brookie on the fly…though he alleged the rod assisted him in the catch, i know (and he later admitted) it was actually the hat he acquired at Faye’s Store in Linville.  are you guys coming to forty’s fall ball in the smokies? jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – wayno I’ve just had a wondeful dinner in the company of the legendary Joanne  . . . oh, and Dave too. have a nice day, Peter

Response:

fellers…11:47 pm and you’ve just had a wonderful dinner??  i sense that a case of sleemans must have been the appetizer, eh?

jeff, can you believe these guys? a pair of profligitic reprobates if there ever was. here we are down here in NC, ever without the opportunity to indulge and fish….and these rusty recreants have to rub our noses in it. a pox on ‘em i say. oh well, i couldn’t get away to gatlinburg for the fff clave…. i’ll just have to be content explorin’ b****** crik later today with that no-good scuppernonger, mccray. ski ya, waldo — Ezflyfish.com                 Blue Ridge Book Gallery Quality Gear & Service        Used & Out-of-Print Books http://www.ezflyfish.com      http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

Response:

Oh, we don’t feel good this morning.  After much oj and good coffee, we are off to see some of the places where we Yankees kicked the mush out of King George’s fellows.  Of course Peter will approach these places with tight jaws, but what the hey. Dave I think I’ve found a new calling in life, giving history lessons to these damn Yankees. Peter

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Weel, once upon a time my friends and I were headed up to Great Lakes steelhead fishery one fall on our first ever steelhead trip. Not really knowing much about it,  suggested we stop at a shop and get the skinny so to speak.  Being new to the sport and having  a fly fishing type magazine in my possession I looked in the directory and found an Orvis shop which we DETOURED to stop at. Bearded, beered and heavily smoked we stopped in to get the latest.  About the best we could do was have one of the clerks, not yet of shaving age, offer to take our….ahem…group, fishing at the price of a hundred dollars a day per man for a half day. To which I studiously replied that I just wanted some recommendations on what flies to use.  Evidently afraid that we might accidentally brush up against some of the finer clothing hanging on the racks we were…rather unceremoniously I thought, given the brush off. However, this perturbed not my good friend Chuck who marched right up to the young feller and said, "Ah the hell with it. Just gimme a dozen night crawlers." I laugh to this day…….john

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Here I am, enjoying the hospitality of the venerable Louie LaPlac.   As much as I have enjoyed the company of the legendary Joanne and Louie, the Orvis thing is true.  Here I sit surrounded by Orvis paraphenalia.  An Orvis lamp, Orvis garbage can – - – Orvis parachutes!!!   Even Orvis socks.   I can’t take this much longer.  T-Bone help.  Drive up here in your Orvis Jeep and save me.

I would but I might be going to the Frying Pan in the AM and I’m going to need all my strength up there….I’m afraid you’re on your own.   (A hint though…unravel one of the orvis socks when LaCourse hits the Orvis pillow….and tie up a few Bromodrosis Caddis) Your pal, — TimW

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..and tie up a few Bromodrosis Caddis) Yep, had you pegged as a Zappa fan years ago! brent

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wayno I’ve just had a wondeful dinner in the company of the legendary Joanne  . . . oh, and Dave too. have a nice day, Peter

        the hem of her garment…the hem of her garment… i weep. wayno

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – wayno I’ve just had a wondeful dinner in the company of the legendary Joanne  . . . oh, and Dave too. have a nice day, Peter the hem of her garment…the hem of her garment… i weep. wayno

Try amadou, soaks up the tears much better ! TL MC

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[deleted] Bearded, beered and heavily smoked we stopped in to get the latest.

[deleted] Alder or Hickory ? — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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[deleted] Bearded, beered and heavily smoked we stopped in to get the latest. [deleted] Alder or Hickory ?

I was thinking he meant a bit farther south.  :-~7 Joe F.

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      the hem of her garment…the hem of her garment… i weep. wayno

Such profound depth of feeling! Bill the sympathetic. — Bill http://www.graigroad.demon.co.uk

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wayno Such profound depth of feeling! Bill the sympathetic. — Bill http://www.graigroad.demon.co.uk

        hell, if you could see the picture, you’d know the fount of the feeling.  :) wayno

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      hell, if you could see the picture, you’d know the fount of the feeling.  :)

I’ll take your word for it, Wayne:-) Bill the trusting. — Bill http://www.graigroad.demon.co.uk

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Bill, please come to the ‘clave and meet her.  I know a year’s lead time is a bit much, but there is a spot reserved for you and our other European ROFFers.  ( I know, I know, the United Kingdom is NOT part of Europe.  <g) Dave L.

        and wales is definitely *not* the u.k.  twyll dyn pob sais!         wayno

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wayno and Bill wax poetically: <<wayno Such profound depth of feeling! Bill the sympathetic. — Bill http://www.graigroad.demon.co.uk

        hell, if you could see the picture, you’d know the fount of the feeling.  :) Bill, please come to the ‘clave and meet her.  I know a year’s lead time is a bit much, but there is a spot reserved for you and our other European ROFFers.  ( I know, I know, the United Kingdom is NOT part of Europe.  <g) Dave L.

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Bill, please come to the ‘clave and meet her.  I know a year’s lead time is a bit much, but there is a spot reserved for you and our other European ROFFers.  ( I know, I know, the United Kingdom is NOT part of Europe.  <g) Dave L.       and wales is definitely *not* the u.k.  twyll dyn pob sais!       wayno

Brilliant – right on! — Bill http://www.graigroad.demon.co.uk

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      and wales is definitely *not* the u.k.  twyll dyn pob sais! Brilliant – right on!

Bill,  Do you think our attentive N American friends will have noticed that Wales stuffed USA (53 pts to 24) at Rugby the other day..?  And Canada 33 pts to 19 the week before?  :-) "What’s Rugby?" they’ll probably say…  :-( — Phil Jones

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"What’s Rugby?" they’ll probably say…  :-(

Rugby is a sport designed by ruffians and played by gentlemen. Football (soccer) is a sport designed by gentlemen and played by ruffians. We have excellent club Rugby here at the UI. Most of the team is quite rugged and quite happily gay. — Ken Fortenberry

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What’s Rugby?" they’ll probably say…  :-

A great game I used to play a hundred pounds and twenty years ago. Down in NW Florida, my team stunk as did I but the four years I played the game were the years I were in the best physical condition of my life and got quite a few dates afterwards with the lovely southern belles who came to watch us. Wayne Knight (remove nospam to respond via mail) Expert in the creation of  wind knots and tailing loops.

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Phil Jones writes:

<<"What’s Rugby?" they’ll probably say…  :-( Rugby?  Isn’t that a shirt company.  You, know, Rugby Shirts.  <g I played it, not too successfully, in the Azores, Portugal back in the early 60’s.  Miserably  rough game introduced to us by a couple of Brit airmen.  After one of the Americans lost a tooth in one of the games, the dental officer insisted we all get fitted with mouth pieces.  That made the Brits *real* happy!  <g Dave LaCourse

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"What’s Rugby?" they’ll probably say…  :-(

Tried it in Miami Fl. back in 1971, all 124 lbs. of me.  It was neither the first nor the last time that I involved myself in something I was not equipped for.  I’d like to say it taught me a valuable lesson, but I think not.  Ah well, they say wisdom comes with age.  I am furiously collecting as much age as I can in the hope that I will become a wise man.  Not much luck so far.

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"What’s Rugby?" they’ll probably say…  :-(

Isn’t Rugby that cheap copy of NFL football that they started in Canada?  The one where they all start off with a big group hug and the funky goal posts and rules? Warren

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Question:

Slainte ! MC

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If you had to list ten flies to fish Western North Carolina streams year round, what would you take- elk hair caddis(tan); royal wulff; female adams; kauffman’s royal stimulator; royal trude; parachute blue-winged olive; letort hopper; prince nymph; squirrel tail nymph; montana nymph; pheasant tail nymph. wayno

If I remember correctly (and it’s tough) PJ only used two.  A royal coachman and any old nymph as a dropper.   Makes life simple. Peter

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BTW, I’ll do my best to raise a glass to your health this weekend when some roffizen probates are in town….hell, I’ll do my best to raise a glass to each and every roffizen –waldo…takin’ liver pills

thank you sir.  I’ll toast you as well from the far fields of PA. Mark Faulkner

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If you had to list ten flies to fish Western North Carolina streams year round, what would you take-

Response:

If you had to list ten flies to fish Western North Carolina streams year round, what would you take-

elk hair caddis(tan); royal wulff; female adams; kauffman’s royal stimulator; royal trude; parachute blue-winged olive; letort hopper; prince nymph; squirrel tail nymph; montana nymph; pheasant tail nymph. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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No Lt. Cahill, hare’s ear or terrestrials? Can you explain your selection understanding ten is a short number. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you had to list ten flies to fish Western North Carolina streams year round, what would you take- elk hair caddis(tan); royal wulff; female adams; kauffman’s royal stimulator; royal trude; parachute blue-winged olive; letort hopper; prince nymph; squirrel tail nymph; montana nymph; pheasant tail nymph. wayno

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No Lt. Cahill, hare’s ear or terrestrials? Can you explain your selection understanding ten is a short number.

    fly selection is darwinian. wayno

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If you had to list ten flies elk hair caddis(tan); royal wulff; female adams; kauffman’s royal stimulator; royal trude; parachute blue-winged olive; letort hopper; prince nymph; squirrel tail nymph; montana nymph; pheasant tail nymph.

Wayno, quit usin’ your toes to count to ten. That extra one down on the end gets you in trouble every time. A most excellent list, but some would make room in the top 10 for a yellow humpy. — Ken Fortenberry

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Who? Darwin? You gonna’ listen to your friends or to the trout? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No Lt. Cahill, hare’s ear or terrestrials? Can you explain your selection understanding ten is a short number.     fly selection is darwinian. wayno

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If you had to list ten flies to fish Western North Carolina streams year round, what would you take-

An experts

Question:

Couple that with the fact that even the cheap graphite rods are dream tackle compared with what I used to use when I started, and there is no more argument for an expensive rod.

I’ve noticed that about many sports.  The people who’ve done it the longest don’t feel they need the fancy gear. At the rate of technological advance experienced in recent years a "great"(expensive) rod (or anything else for that matter) of 10 years ago is probably comparable to a decent model today. With some notable exceptions.   55 T-bird 58-61 Vette 67 – 69 Camaero 69-71 Chevelle 71 455 Vette 455 Olds Oh, but those are all pre oil crisis cars. Never mind…

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Couple that with the fact that even the cheap graphite rods are dream tackle compared with what I used to use when I started, and there is no more argument for an expensive rod. I’ve noticed that about many sports.  The people who’ve done it the longest don’t feel they need the fancy gear. At the rate of technological advance experienced in recent years a "great"(expensive) rod (or anything else for that matter) of 10 years ago is probably comparable to a decent model today. With some notable exceptions. 55 T-bird 58-61 Vette 67 – 69 Camaero 69-71 Chevelle 71 455 Vette 455 Olds

Don’t forget the 401c" Jeep Wagoneer-quadratrack, all wheel lock in the glove box, a few twiddles and tweeks and you have an over 500hp leviathon. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, but those are all pre oil crisis cars. Never mind…

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Hello all from a longtime lurker. I agree with the cheapest rod to get the job done.  Here is my wonderful challenge: My wife has really taken to flyfishing and wants a rod and reel of her own instead of borrowing from others.  I completely understand.  We want to spend time hiking and fishing, so I am looking for a 8-9′ 4-6wt. 4 pc. rod for western ID and WA fishing.  I am currently using the Cabela’s willow creek combo.  I really like it and it is still available for $90.  Should I get this, or is there another cheaper rod I can get for us? Thanks and considering myself blessed! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     It’s like my 3wt if you remember ,the pretty little one with the wood insert except it is a graphite reel seat. It’s a Cabela’s special from flyer code #85-1001 stock#85-31-3111 it’s the rod from the youth combo-try it with that 3wt reel and line you use and see if it won’t do a passable job. If not, extra spool and line for 5wt for those big brookies you keep penned in back of your store. In JUNE !                                                          John Popp

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all from a longtime lurker. I agree with the cheapest rod to get the job done.  Here is my wonderful challenge: My wife has really taken to flyfishing and wants a rod and reel of her own instead of borrowing from others.  I completely understand.  We want to spend time hiking and fishing, so I am looking for a 8-9′ 4-6wt. 4 pc. rod for western ID and WA fishing.  I am currently using the Cabela’s willow creek combo.  I really like it and it is still available for $90.  Should I get this, or is there another cheaper rod I can get for us? Thanks and considering myself blessed!     It’s like my 3wt if you remember ,the pretty little one with the wood insert except it is a graphite reel seat. It’s a Cabela’s special from flyer code #85-1001 stock#85-31-3111 it’s the rod from the youth combo-try it with that 3wt reel and line you use and see if it won’t do a passable job. If not, extra spool and line for 5wt for those big brookies you keep penned in back of your store. In JUNE !                                                          John Popp

    My recommendation is the youth(see above) matched with the winchester reel(now on sale at $35.00) or one of the combos in the Cabela’s fly fishing catalog. I’m not in any way connected with them but I find the best deals there for the beginner. By the way mine arrived in a plastic rod case with sock. The case sells for 9.95 so the rod (priced at 29.95) actually cost $20 bucks. The case is big enough that I have the 5wt youth, 3wt three forks, and 7wt 11′ 3 piece Abu Garcia with sox all stored in it. The case fits nicely in the truck even with tool box.                                                           John Popp                                                         in Sanford Fl.

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One great choice is the Cortland Fairplay, available at WalMart for $39.95.    I bought one for my girlfriends boys, and it is great!  It is a bit soft, but practically casts itself.   I taught a buddy to cast with it, and he would rather use it than one of my better (faster) rods. Bob Scott

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Walt, that has been my opinion for some time.  When I go down I want a rod and reel I can toss to one side and worry about what happens to me, not some expensive equipment. — Ernie Harrison

It may sell for $300 or Less and this BastardBamboo may be cheap to buy, but it will stand up to anything ever made in America.  Sorry Ernie.  You’re going to have t drown and for cheap stuff at that. George

Question:

Hi: hope to be in Key West 8/16 and 17.  I’m looking for a guide to take me inshore flyfishing.  I’ve been to Belize many times, but never to KW. would appreciate any suggestions and would also like to know if it is worth it in the summer heat.  I don’t mind the heat, but are the fish there? Adam

Hi Adam, I would call Nat Ragland as he will give you the straight scoop. 305/743-5806 Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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Try Florida Keys On-Line Guide. They have information about everything you could imagine in the keys.  I found it using Yahoo but you might be able to get the URL from any Chamber of Commerce in the Keys (I think there are 3 or 4) – all of them have 800 numbers as well.

: Hi: : hope to be in Key West 8/16 and 17.  I’m looking for a guide to take me : inshore flyfishing.  I’ve been to Belize many times, but never to KW. : would appreciate any suggestions and would also like to know if it is : worth it in the summer heat.  I don’t mind the heat, but are the fish : there? : Adam : : Hi Adam, : I would call Nat Ragland as he will give you the straight scoop. 305/743-5806 : Bill Kiene : Kiene’s Fly Shop : Sacramento,CA,USA : 800/4000FLY — Lori Dubay

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Hi: hope to be in Key West 8/16 and 17.  I’m looking for a guide to take me inshore flyfishing.  I’ve been to Belize many times, but never to KW. would appreciate any suggestions and would also like to know if it is worth it in the summer heat.  I don’t mind the heat, but are the fish there? Adam

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Question:

Question:

Classic Sports International will hold several CME CAT.1 approved Medical-Dental-Legal seminars at great fly fishing locations this year including Peace & Plenty Bonefish Lodge,Exuma,Bahamas(May 29-June 2) Five Rivers Lodge, Montana(June 26-30) and King Salmon Lodge,Alaska

Response:

Classic Sports International will hold several CME CAT.1 approved Medical-Dental-Legal seminars at great fly fishing locations this year including Peace & Plenty Bonefish Lodge,Exuma,Bahamas(May 29-June 2) Five Rivers Lodge, Montana(June 26-30) and King Salmon Lodge,Alaska

No Doctors or Attorneys wanted Please do not attempt to book trips with me After 20 years of outfitting I refuse to take Doc’s or Sharks Go to Montana and fish for no talent ,stupid cutthroat or Alaska,another If your looking to bilk us taxpayers for your fishing trips see above post As an American I can honestly say we are proud that you are so concerned about your continuing education that you feel WE should pay for it. Bend over America here come the Doc’s & Sharks

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Question:

[snip] : participants of this newsgroup. Reading the story was somewhat eerie. Had : Duncan been lurking in the background, reading the pointless and : frequently nasty arguments between fly-fishing purists (who would never : use an Orvis rod and would drown anyone they saw with a celular phone) : and the evil fly fishing yuppies, who unabashedly use Orvis, make money, : and contaminate the purists’ streams with their very presence? I : seriously doubt that Duncan has been listening in; this ridiculous debate : must be played out on streams and in bars and fly shops all around the : country. I don’t know if he passes through here, but I’m pretty sure he lives in Montana now.  He lives it every day.  I wonder if he has a personalized license plate? Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.

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I don’t know if he passes through here, but I’m pretty sure he lives in   Montana now.  He lives it every day.  I wonder if he has a personalized   license plate? Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.

Rick,     He does live in Montana now, bought a place a year or so ago.  Probably does drive thru Moscow as he still comes to Portland from time to time for readings and the odd appearance at a club meetings.                         Mike in PDX                "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                                            Tom McGuane

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I agree with the above.  The *introduction* , where he describes river teeth is worth the price of the book.  Longspeer

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David James Duncan’s new book <iRiver Teeth<i is, simply put, absolutely wonderful. I’d highly recommend it to anyone who enjoys good writing. Many of the pieces in this book –I’m not sure whether to call them stories or essays — are not "fishing stories", but several of them are, and one of these, "Not Rocking the Boat" should be required reading for participants of this newsgroup. Reading the story was somewhat eerie. Had Duncan been lurking in the background, reading the pointless and frequently nasty arguments between fly-fishing purists (who would never use an Orvis rod and would drown anyone they saw with a celular phone) and the evil fly fishing yuppies, who unabashedly use Orvis, make money, and contaminate the purists’ streams with their very presence? I seriously doubt that Duncan has been listening in; this ridiculous debate must be played out on streams and in bars and fly shops all around the country. I haven’t quite finished the book yet, but all of the pieces I have read so far have been top-notch writing. No real surprise there. "The Mickey Mantle Koan" (not one of the "fishing stories") is worth the price of the book all by itself. Dave Guinee

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