Question:

Michael: I know I may be venturing into dangerous territory with this next question, because I’m a catch & release practitioner about 92% of the time. But, are any of these fish edible? I seem to recall reading something about a toxin in bonefish caught in that part of the world. Doug

Bonefish and tarpon are no good for the table at all: absolutely stuffed with small bones.  That’s probably why there seem to be more of these two species around than the more edible fish.  Jack are pretty tasty indeed and so long as you only eat the smaller ones <4lbs you won’t get the cigatera (spelling??) poisoning.  Apparently the larger fish have more toxin accumulated in their flesh and are best to be avoided.  A really nice fish to eat is any snapper:  the mangroves will be full of them upto 5lbs or so. Baracuda are also a good eating fish,  but again only eat the smaller ones <8lbs to avoid the cigatera poison risk.  The toxins originate in some algae or other that the little reef fish eat.  The toxins don’t affect the fish, but gets accumulated in fish flesh.  When a baracuda eats the flesh of fish that have been eating the algae, the toxins are transferred to the baracuda. The toxins have a fairly nasty effect on humans that can last for years, so it is best to avoid eating big reef predator fish in these tropical waters. Regards, Michael.

Response:

Michael: Thanks for the info! Doug – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Michael: I know I may be venturing into dangerous territory with this next question, because I’m a catch & release practitioner about 92% of the time. But, are any of these fish edible? I seem to recall reading something about a toxin in bonefish caught in that part of the world. Doug Bonefish and tarpon are no good for the table at all: absolutely stuffed with small bones.  That’s probably why there seem to be more of these two species around than the more edible fish.  Jack are pretty tasty indeed and so long as you only eat the smaller ones <4lbs you won’t get the cigatera (spelling??) poisoning.  Apparently the larger fish have more toxin accumulated in their flesh and are best to be avoided.  A really nice fish to eat is any snapper:  the mangroves will be full of them upto 5lbs or so. Baracuda are also a good eating fish,  but again only eat the smaller ones <8lbs to avoid the cigatera poison risk.  The toxins originate in some algae or other that the little reef fish eat.  The toxins don’t affect the fish, but gets accumulated in fish flesh.  When a baracuda eats the flesh of fish that have been eating the algae, the toxins are transferred to the baracuda. The toxins have a fairly nasty effect on humans that can last for years, so it is best to avoid eating big reef predator fish in these tropical waters. Regards, Michael.

Response:

Michael: I know I may be venturing into dangerous territory with this next question, because I’m a catch & release practitioner about 92% of the time. But, are any of these fish edible? I seem to recall reading something about a toxin in bonefish caught in that part of the world. Doug – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In late July, I’ll be visiting friends in Puerto Rico (southwest part of the island), and I’m curious whether anyone here has done any beach/jetty fishing there. What kinds & sizes of fish might I expect to find? I need this info so I can evaluate whether my existing equipment will be appropriate, or whether it’s time to invest in something different (always a pleasurable idea!). Doug if anything there are probably going to be some jacks (bar, horse-eye & yellow) lurking around beaches & jetties.  These can be had on 7 weights at a minimum, although if you have anything heavier than this (10 weight is preferred as there may be small tarpon ~  <60lb  around), then take that in preference to the no. 7.  For catching  jack,  you will need at least 150 yards of backing on your reel, preferably more, and I recommend 30lb gel spun braid for backing.  Jacks are absolutely excellent fun on a fly rod, and a 10lb fish will be a severe opponent:  don’t let them get snagged up in a coral head, or else you’ll lose some line and possibly damage your flyline too.  Flies are more or less steamers (deceivers and so on) 2" – 4" in length, and you need to be able to fish as deep as 15 feet or so at times, so be sure to have an outfit that can cover surface waters to 15 feet as appropriate. Simply fishing for jacks is enough fun for me in tropical waters, though you can suppliment the jack with occasional forays into the bonefish flats or tarpon mangroves for variety.  I take a 4 piece 9 foot 10 weight rod with a big 10/11 reel with me to tropical waters.  I also have an 8 weight 9′ 4 piecer as a back-up / bonefish special. For leaders I simply use a 6 foot length of 15 lb mono for the jacks on the surface, and tapered leader (8lb tippet) for bonefish,  and a reverse tapered leader  for the tarpon (i.e. 5 ft  20lb leader butt section and 1 foot 60lb shock tippet.  Tarpon have very abrasive jaws (no teeth as such, but very finely serrated) that can seriously chafe away at the tippet. For fishing deeper down the choices are a sinking polyleader attached to your regular floater, a commercial sink tip, or a variable tip line / shooting head assembly  (though I have not yet tried this, I like this concept and will be aiming to have one reel that is comprised of a big reel that also has a lot of backing and a decent drag, and upon which I have a length of running line terminating in a loop.  I wish to have a number of shooting heads that singularly link up to this loop so that I can have one reel that will fulfil a great number of roles). Flies vary from 1 to 2/0 in hook size.  It is sensible to be sure to have a pair of polarising sunglasses so that you can see into the water better; with these you can study where the fish are and watch how they behave when they see your fly being presented to them. Have fun,  and tightlines, Michael.

Response:

In late July, I’ll be visiting friends in Puerto Rico (southwest part of the island), and I’m curious whether anyone here has done any beach/jetty fishing there. What kinds & sizes of fish might I expect to find? I need this info so I can evaluate whether my existing equipment will be appropriate, or whether it’s time to invest in something different (always a pleasurable idea!). Doug

if anything there are probably going to be some jacks (bar, horse-eye & yellow) lurking around beaches & jetties.  These can be had on 7 weights at a minimum, although if you have anything heavier than this (10 weight is preferred as there may be small tarpon ~  <60lb  around), then take that in preference to the no. 7.  For catching  jack,  you will need at least 150 yards of backing on your reel, preferably more, and I recommend 30lb gel spun braid for backing.  Jacks are absolutely excellent fun on a fly rod, and a 10lb fish will be a severe opponent:  don’t let them get snagged up in a coral head, or else you’ll lose some line and possibly damage your flyline too.  Flies are more or less steamers (deceivers and so on) 2" – 4" in length, and you need to be able to fish as deep as 15 feet or so at times, so be sure to have an outfit that can cover surface waters to 15 feet as appropriate. Simply fishing for jacks is enough fun for me in tropical waters, though you can suppliment the jack with occasional forays into the bonefish flats or tarpon mangroves for variety.  I take a 4 piece 9 foot 10 weight rod with a big 10/11 reel with me to tropical waters.  I also have an 8 weight 9′ 4 piecer as a back-up / bonefish special. For leaders I simply use a 6 foot length of 15 lb mono for the jacks on the surface, and tapered leader (8lb tippet) for bonefish,  and a reverse tapered leader  for the tarpon (i.e. 5 ft  20lb leader butt section and 1 foot 60lb shock tippet.  Tarpon have very abrasive jaws (no teeth as such, but very finely serrated) that can seriously chafe away at the tippet. For fishing deeper down the choices are a sinking polyleader attached to your regular floater, a commercial sink tip, or a variable tip line / shooting head assembly  (though I have not yet tried this, I like this concept and will be aiming to have one reel that is comprised of a big reel that also has a lot of backing and a decent drag, and upon which I have a length of running line terminating in a loop.  I wish to have a number of shooting heads that singularly link up to this loop so that I can have one reel that will fulfil a great number of roles). Flies vary from 1 to 2/0 in hook size.  It is sensible to be sure to have a pair of polarising sunglasses so that you can see into the water better; with these you can study where the fish are and watch how they behave when they see your fly being presented to them. Have fun,  and tightlines, Michael.

Response:

In late July, I’ll be visiting friends in Puerto Rico (southwest part of the island), and I’m curious whether anyone here has done any beach/jetty fishing there. What kinds & sizes of fish might I expect to find? I need this info so I can evaluate whether my existing equipment will be appropriate, or whether it’s time to invest in something different (always a pleasurable idea!). Doug

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Question:

BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies? I read somewhere that they emit a mild toxin into the water which repels the fish.  They hang out in groups because then there is a higher concentration of the toxin, providing a higher level of safety.

Oh, she’s talking about water striders! I thought she was talking about midges. Kevin’s right. Water striders are toxic. I remember last year at the San Juan Clave there were lots of midges in the eddies and other slackwater, but the fish were ignoring them. I wondered why, and still do. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies? I read somewhere that they emit a mild toxin into the water which repels the fish.  They hang out in groups because then there is a higher concentration of the toxin, providing a higher level of safety.

Thank you.  That sounds right.  I know they’re not fast, as I’ve always been easily able to hand catch one.   — rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

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BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies?  

I understood that these were just not a favorite food of trout…being that they’re as hard as peanuts.  In NJ, those and skating spiders are not eaten by trout in any waters that I know of.

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One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable?

I’m loving trying to do it for drys or surface lures, but I can’t bring myself to feel that anything but a really dead bug will drift fairly freely, and even that bug will bounce into and off of things, including the bottom if using an under surface fly / lure. BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies?  I don’t see them much in water where other varieties of decent sized game fish are around or else they stay so shallow that nothing big can get them.  Is it the Monarch butterfly sort of thing in the water? — rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Response:

One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable? I’m loving trying to do it for drys or surface lures, but I can’t bring myself to feel that anything but a really dead bug will drift fairly freely, and even that bug will bounce into and off of things, including the bottom if using an under surface fly / lure.

I kind of hate to post this, because I’m such a "fucking putz" at presenting nymphs compared to people like Willi and Bruce, but here’s my understanding of the theory. There’s something called the "turnover point." When you cast your nymph out, in the normal scheme of things, you should try to get your indicator upstream of the nymph. The current on the surface carries the indicator downstream faster than the deep-drifting nymph. Upstream mends can help, but you risk pulling the fly right out of the trouts’ mouths. There is a point — the "turnover" point — when the nymph is just below the indicator. This is when it’s doing its best rendition of a "dead drift." If you know where the fish are, try to make that the turnover point. BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies?  I don’t see them much in water where other varieties of decent sized game fish are around or else they stay so shallow that nothing big can get them.  Is it the Monarch butterfly sort of thing in the water?

Good question. I think it’s because trout are wary. They don’t want to expose themselves to predators in shallow water when there’s plenty of stuff to eat in safer places. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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There is a point — the "turnover" point — when the nymph is just below the indicator. This is when it’s doing its best rendition of a "dead drift." If you know where the fish are, try to make that the turnover

point. According to Borger, the indicator is more of a drift indicator than strike indicator.  He says if your indicator is drifting as fast as the surface current and your nymph is near the bottom, your nymph is probably dragging. A split shot will help slow it down.  I suppose this would be past the "turnover point" you describe.

Response:

According to Borger, the indicator is more of a drift indicator than strike indicator.  He says if your indicator is drifting as fast as the surface current and your nymph is near the bottom, your nymph is probably dragging. A split shot will help slow it down.  I suppose this would be past the "turnover point" you describe.

Even using the most thought out or "best" combination of weight, leader length etc. there will usually only be a small portion of your drift where the fly is truly approaching a dragfree drift. Like Steve said, you want to try and have this "good" part of the drift in the area that you think holds fish. The deeper the water, overall, the more pronounced this is. You can get more instances of a dragfree drift through mending, but because of the varied currents, it impossible to get a dragfree drift throughout the drift. It’s often difficult to get a dragfree drift with a dry fly. With a dry you can see what’s going on and with a dry, you’re essentially only dealing with a flat plane or two dimensions. With a sunken nymph, in most situations, you have to make inferences about what’s going on with your fly and you’re dealing with three dimensions. MUCH more difficult but fortunately for us, I think the fish are more tolerant of drag with a nymph. Willi

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BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies?

Probably because they are too difficult for the trout to catch. They would experience a net loss in calories because of the energy expended in trying to catch them. Game fish are instinctively aware of the energy/food value relationship, and tend to feed accordingly. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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With a sunken nymph, in most situations, you have to make inferences about what’s going on with your fly and you’re dealing with three dimensions. MUCH more difficult but fortunately for us, I think the fish are more tolerant of drag with a nymph.

        and i suspect that this is because many of the insects we are attempting to imitate with nymphs are alive, and move upwards and from side to side as they attempt to reach the surface, as opposed to the nearly motionless float of duns and spinners. wayno (lifelong reader of field&stream)

Response:

BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies?

I read somewhere that they emit a mild toxin into the water which repels the fish.  They hang out in groups because then there is a higher concentration of the toxin, providing a higher level of safety. Kevin — Check out the Pike Clave Website: <http://www.misu.nodak.edu/~vang/PikeClave/

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries       95% Nymphs       95% Wets       40% Streamers      10% Your percentage for nymphs is surprising to me.  Do you usually let them swing across at the end of the dragfree part of the drift?  I take many fish on nymphs, especially BH PTs, on the rising part of the swing–almost as many as when I fish traditional wets (soft hackles, etc.) this way.

    What I really meant to say was, 95% of the time I nymph I *really* try for a dead drift. The other 5% of the time is when I’m moving (stumbling) upstream, dragging the thing behind me, and some inconsiderate trout bites it.

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Willi asks: What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for:

 Dries (over 90)  Nymphs ( not sure, probably most; 75?)  Wets (less than 10)  Streamers (less than 5) — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries Nymphs Wets Streamers My estimates: Dries: 90 Nymphs: 80 Wets: 50 Streamers: 20

Dries: definitely in the 90+% range during most mayfly hatches. During stonefly hatches, however, or even when I fish a hopper during terrestrial season, I twitch my fly when it’s drifting. Granted, I attempt for it to be subtle, and only a movement every couple of feet or so, but a lot of the hits come right at the twitch. Nymphs: I’d like to think that ALL my fish hit during drag free drift but I think that’s impossible to do all the time. I’d rank it there around 75%. Wets: When I fish them, which isn’t that often, they are moving for sure. 25%. Streamers: Practically all my fish come during the strip or the swing. I do pick up fish occasionally during a drag-free drift but I don’t fish a streamer that often that way. 10% — Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

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Dries: definitely in the 90+% range during most mayfly hatches. During stonefly hatches, however, or even when I fish a hopper during terrestrial season, I twitch my fly when it’s drifting. Granted, I attempt for it to be subtle, and only a movement every couple of feet or so, but a lot of the hits come right at the twitch.

I concur with this. Another "action" technique I especially like is skittering a caddis imitation through shallow, pocket water. Not sure if it is more effective than just a drag free drift but it sure produces some exciting takes. Streamers: Practically all my fish come during the strip or the swing. I do pick up fish occasionally during a drag-free drift but I don’t fish a streamer that often that way. 10%

I’m not a very able streamer fisherman but I frequently cast up and across with a streamer and let it drift down pretty much drag free to allow it to sink. I have taken some fish during this "drag free" part of the drift. Peter? Willi

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Dries: definitely in the 90+% range during most mayfly hatches. During stonefly hatches, however, or even when I fish a hopper during terrestrial season, I twitch my fly when it’s drifting. Granted, I attempt for it to be subtle, and only a movement every couple of feet or so, but a lot of the hits come right at the twitch. I concur with this. Another "action" technique I especially like is skittering a caddis imitation through shallow, pocket water. Not sure if it is more effective than just a drag free drift but it sure produces some exciting takes.

A very fun hatch on the Clark Fork is a #14 olive caddis, a ‘green rock worm’, IIRC. A free-living caddis. Use a LaFontaine-style (God rest his soul) emerging caddis fished just under the surface film down and across or just straight down. If the fly is making a ‘V’ they don’t seem to want it. But if you get it to still be twitching & dragging, literally just under the surface, they wack it pretty hard. There is a particular hole on the CF that really can only best be fished with an almost straight down approach with this method, but right at dusk on a mid-July evening… oh boy! Streamers: Practically all my fish come during the strip or the swing. I do pick up fish occasionally during a drag-free drift but I don’t fish a streamer that often that way. 10% I’m not a very able streamer fisherman but I frequently cast up and across with a streamer and let it drift down pretty much drag free to allow it to sink. I have taken some fish during this "drag free" part of the drift. Peter?

I must amend to my streamer statement above that most of my streamer fishing is done from a boat. With a good oarsman at the helm, you can get some amazingly good presentations that can cover a lot of good water. — Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dries: definitely in the 90+% range during most mayfly hatches. During stonefly hatches, however, or even when I fish a hopper during terrestrial season, I twitch my fly when it’s drifting. Granted, I attempt for it to be subtle, and only a movement every couple of feet or so, but a lot of the hits come right at the twitch. I concur with this. Another "action" technique I especially like is skittering a caddis imitation through shallow, pocket water. Not sure if it is more effective than just a drag free drift but it sure produces some exciting takes. Streamers: Practically all my fish come during the strip or the swing. I do pick up fish occasionally during a drag-free drift but I don’t fish a streamer that often that way. 10% I’m not a very able streamer fisherman but I frequently cast up and across with a streamer and let it drift down pretty much drag free to allow it to sink. I have taken some fish during this "drag free" part of the drift. Peter? Willi

I rarely fish streamers on the dead drift though it can be a useful imitation of a dead or dying minnow with the right pattern.  I tried one day for steelhead using a small, weighted streamer on the dead drift and ended up with a bunch of bugle trout.  They obviously feed on the dead.  I’ve also had carp and smallies suck in streamers when I’ve been counting the fly down on the sink, while fishing in still water. I know that you know this Willi, but as a general comment  . . . About drag for dries, nymphs, and wets – I try to get the situation right for the insect that’s active.  One example – on Whiteman’s Creek, it was Hendrickson time but there was nothing in the air.  I was dead drifting a H. nymph by a log jam in fairly deep water and was batting a fat zero.  Then I remembered that Hendrickson nymphs migrate to shallow, slow water to hatch.  I was standing on the inside of a bend in shallow, slow water so I slowly retrieved my H. nymph along the bottom toward me and picked up a 12" rainbow on the first try.  A few more casts picked up some more fish.   Some mayfly nymphs and caddis pupae are very active swimmers and some mayfly emergers change into adult form a foot or so below the surface before swimming up with their wings (e.g. Dark Hendricksons.)  Many caddis do the same and with some species, the gas they generate causes them to rocket up.  As caddis have micro hairs on their wings they can fly off immediately on emergence whereas mayflies usually need to dry their wings first resulting in lots of fluttering.  Some caddis skitter across the surface before flying off and a few stillwater caddis will skate on the surface all the way to the shore.  When egg laying, some caddis and mayflies dap their eggs on the surface while other caddis and mayflies dive, penetrating the meniscus and laying their eggs on the bottom before swimming back up and flying off (or dying in the mayfly case.)  Small trout will often leap out of the water after dapping egg layers while others actively chase the divers. None of this behaviour can be imitated by a dead drift. Moral:  Know the behaviour of the bug.  Drag is not always your enemy – especially when it’s deliberate. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable? What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries Nymphs Wets Streamers My estimates: Dries: 90 Nymphs: 80 Wets: 50 Streamers: 20 Willi

Response:

One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable? What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries … My estimates: Dries: 90

When people talk about "educated" fish, I think recognizing a dragfree drift is the piscine equivalent of the PhD. I also think it’s highly dependent on the particular watershed. Some places, relatively sterile mountain streams for instance, you can catch a fish with just about any sort of drift at all. On a heavily fished spring creek I’d say that the percentage of fish I take with a dragfree drift is for all intents and purposes 100%. — Ken Fortenberry

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One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable?

Well, IMO, the term "drag free" drift is the wrong term to use for _teaching_ beginners, although _presenting_ in such fashion, is, to me, different than _fishing_ a fly, even if the take occurs within a second or two of presentation.  What is important as to _fishing_ is to not appear so unnatural as to either confuse, and therefore, "spook," a fish or simply telegraph that an offering isn’t food. Granted, this often means no unnatural drag, which is often "drag free" and likely, most experienced fishers know this and use the term "drag free" as a catch-all term.  But I think it does beginners a disservice to teach absolutes (take "the wrist must always be locked or you are casting improperly" training many get, for example) as being an absolute success/failure type of situation. What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: My estimates: Dries: 90 Nymphs: 80 Wets: 50 Streamers: 20

Hmm…I thought a little about it, and I can’t come up with any numbers beyond mere WAGs.  Maybe to my detriment, I don’t seem to take note of this type of data in such a way to be able to quantify it. I’m not suggesting that doing so is improper, just that I don’t.  Or maybe I do take subconscious note, but it has become one of those "I don’t know why I do it that way, I just do" things.   But if forced to make a WAG, I’d say dries, about like your number, wets, about 80-90, and streamers, upwards of 0, but less than 10 <G (simply due to the way I <mostly fish streamers, they wouldn’t be doing much "drifting," drag-free or otherwise, as I take your meaning of "drifting.") TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Willi

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One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable? What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries  

have to say 99%  Worked dries are a minor tactic for me. Nymphs  

couldn’t possibly tell with the deep nymphs, but certainly to shallow sighted fish 100% Wets

70% Streamers

10% Steve

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What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries       95% Nymphs       95% Wets       40% Streamers

     10%

Response:

What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries       95% Nymphs       95% Wets       40% Streamers      10%

Your percentage for nymphs is surprising to me.  Do you usually let them swing across at the end of the dragfree part of the drift?  I take many fish on nymphs, especially BH PTs, on the rising part of the swing–almost as many as when I fish traditional wets (soft hackles, etc.) this way.   JR

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One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable? My estimates: Nymphs: 80

The more I think about nymphing, the harder it is to believe that a drag free drift happens very often.  Think how difficult it can be with dry flies – in 2 dimensions.  Nymphing is in 3 dimensions, so the problems you have with a dry fly drift are magnified.  Finally, add in the fact that the water slows near the bottom of the river where we often fish nymphs, and it’s a wonder we ever catch a fish. I conclude 2 things: – we are not always getting a drag free drift, but many nymphs do move around under water under their own power.  Sometimes drag simulates this. – there are so many swirling currents in "mixed water" (near bottom rocks and obstructions), that even the trout can’t always detect drag underwater.  Even natural nymphs move in randomly changing ways in some of the "micro currents". There must be places where the flow is constant and trout can detect drag, but there must be places where it’s not, too.  You can probably convince yourself of this by tossing little things into turbulent water several times and watching how they drift differently each time.

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One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable?

An interesting question, and one I have no idea of the answer.   One thing RDean said tweaked my though process however, and I began thinking not in terms of drag, but time as measurement.   I’m actually amazed at how many of the fish I catch hit the fly within a couple seconds of it hitting the water.   That probably means I suck at drag free drift.   I’m also amazed at how fast the fish can get there.   Unless I’m dropping it right on his nose, those guys really cover some ground, so to speak.   On occasions where flows are simple enough, I do catch some farther down the drift, but generally if I don’t have a take in the first 5 sec., I’m not going to get one. Joe F.

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Question:

I’m totally new to fly fishing and have a few Q’s about casting…After my backstroke how far should my wrist go forward (10 o’clock?, or what?)? and how long so I let the line drop before I use backstroke again? I think the best way to learn is to watch somebody, but if you can please help. And when fishing for salmon in rivers, do you use weights? Thanks for any help, Chad

Response:

Hi Chad, The question regarding casting is a highly debated topic to which many a method, rhyme and reason exists.  In essence when false casting (the line is literally in constant motion) the hand/wrist/arm position-motion closely resembles that of a pianists metronome.  A balance of speed and motion on either side of vertical (12 o’clock position).  So the classic 10 to 2 method really sets up a nice Horizontal cast, where the flyline appears to be in a purely horizontal plane. If you were to change that relationship (10 o’clock is the backcast and 2 o’clock the forward cast for example) then a casting stroke of 9 to 1 would yield a high forward cast which would inevitably ‘fall short’ of the target (puddle cast) and a 11 to 3 would produce a cast which would drive into the water with quite a splash. But, the classic 10 to 2 is not what you would always use when your out fishing so it is very important that you experiment with varying degrees of the ‘clock’.  There will be times when you would want to cast a ’soft’ presentation so maybe a 9 to 1 would do fine… No matter what happens, give yourself a steady casting tempo, don’t rush a casting direction because you fear the line will hit the water mid cast. Watching someone cast is alright but it is the ‘feel’ of a cast that is most difficult to put into words.  Have someone take you in-hand to let you know what a cast feels like and not just what it looks like! As for salmon fishing, I use sinktip and full sink lines as well as floaters when fishing.  Occasionally I add some split shot but most of my fly’s have weights in them when necessary. Good luck and have fun up there! Roger M. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m totally new to fly fishing and have a few Q’s about casting…After my backstroke how far should my wrist go forward (10 o’clock?, or what?)? and how long so I let the line drop before I use backstroke again? I think the best way to learn is to watch somebody, but if you can please help. And when fishing for salmon in rivers, do you use weights? Thanks for any help, Chad

Response:

Is there any reason why that unfurling loop couldn’t have lift?

Maybe this will help: http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/lift1.html — Charlie…

Response:

I could be wrong technically.  What I meant to point out was that a fly line unfurling with a tight loop looks like an airfoil in crossection. But with a solid airfoil, a low pressure zone on the top makes the whole thing lift by virtue of the fact that the bottom is solidly connected to the top.  The top can’t lift the bottom unless the two are connected in some stable way.  At least I can’t imagine how it could. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not so sure. Clearly a moving fly line is affected in some way by the air around it; otherwise we’d all use soft rods on windy days. The question is what kind of aerodynamics are involved. I think fluid dynamics would apply. In water, similar wave structures can be created either with the water moving and the wave staying still (rivers)(analogize the "flexible" water with the "flexible" line?) or with the water staying basically motionless but the wave moving (oceans). A flycast (as it unrolls-not necessarily on the backcast) is sort of like an ocean wave; the bottom of the loop consists of line that’s no longer moving but the loop still moves forward, unfurling. Is there any reason why that unfurling loop couldn’t have lift? Any aero engineers out there? What you want is a reasonably small loop that actually looks like the leading edge of an airplane wing (I heard tell the line actually "flies" that way). That would be impossible since the line is flexible.

– Regards, Jeff Before you buy.

Response:

Good point. What I’m thinking is that the top is exerting some upward pressure on the bottom — ie, if you get the top hung up in a branch, the bottom won’t fall to the water. On a much lower scale, maybe any lift created by the top exerts some slight force on the bottom as well, delaying the descent until the whole line’s out straight. Or maybe not. This is a passing reference I saw in a video. Really: anyone versed in airfoil fluid mechanics out there?

Response:

I could be wrong technically.  

        the effort that statement must have required is simply awe inspiring. wayno

Response:

Or maybe not. This is a passing reference I saw in a video. Really: anyone versed in airfoil fluid mechanics out there?

Again, you could look at the reference I posted earlier and learn enough to see that fly lines don’t ‘fly’. — Charlie…

Response:

Please repost that url; my box wouldn’t go there last time (and I subsequently deleted messages). I’ll look at it carefully.

Response:

Please repost that url; my box wouldn’t go there last time (and I subsequently deleted messages). I’ll look at it carefully.

http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/lift1.html — Charlie…

Response:

I’m convincing myself. Maybe I’ll forward this string to a prof somewhere for analysis…

Oh well… — Charlie…

Response:

Here you go, boys. Just plug in the boundary conditions and solve these equations. Unfortunately, you’ll need a supercomputer. Maybe you can get a grant. When I worked at the NASA Ames Research Center (Numerical Aerodynamic Simulation) they gave a grant to somebody to study the aerodynamics of tennis balls. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam) [ equations.html 1K ]

Response:

OK, thanks for the reference. Good page! However, it tends to confirm my theory. Here are three relevant excerpts from NASA’s explanation of lift: 1.  "For a body immersed in a moving fluid, the fluid will remain in contact with the surface of the body. If the body is shaped, moved, or inclined in such a way as to produce a net deflection, or turning, of the flow, the local velocity is changed in magnitude, direction or both. Changing the velocity creates a net force on the body." 2.   "Viscosity: As an object moves through the air, the viscosity (stickiness) of the air becomes very important. Air molecules stick to any surface, creating a layer of air near the surface (called a boundary layer) that, in effect, changes the shape of the object. To make things more confusing, the boundary layer may lift off or "separate" from the body and create an effective shape much different from the physical shape of an object. And to make it even more confusing, the flow conditions in and near the boundary layer are often unsteady (changing in time). The boundary layer is very important in determining both the drag and lift of an object.  3.  "Newton[s] position that lift is the reaction force on a body caused by  deflecting a flow of gas." Here’s how I integrate that: per quote 1 above, a body does not need to move to generate lift. It only must be "moved, shaped, or inclined." I think that the unfurling of a fly line creates the shape required to create lift. Quote 1 also confirms that lift is a function of fluid mechanics, which supports my idea that, just as waves can be standing or moving, so could an airfoil. Finally, an accelerating fly line has just the sort of velocity change needed to create lift (there’s an extensive discussion of the role of acceleration on the NASA site). A stiffer action rod creates greater line speed; and it casts the line farther. That may be a factor of acceleration/lift, as well as simple Newton gravity/trajectory math. What’s puzzled me is how a round fly line could act as an airfoil in its interaction with individual molecules. Sure, the shape is an airfoil, but I couldn’t see how the specific line-to-molecule interaction could act like a plane (in both the popular and Euclidian senses!). Quote 2 might explain: if the line moving through the air creates a boundary layer, that layer could function more as an airfoil than the line itself does. Finally, can’t ignore the simple component that the wing’s angle of attack gives. Bernoulli’s principle (yeah, I knew what it was called before!) explains most lift, but some comes from the simple fact of air hitting the bottom of the wing (if the wing’s inclined slightly upward). That’s why attack angle is a fact in flying characteristics. So, where do we usually stop our forward cast? 10:00; exactly the same slight upward angle you’d use if you were trying to coax a little more lift out of an airfoil. Finally, there’s the simple Bernoullian theory itself: air on bottom of wing doesn’t have to move much, air on top does, ergo lift. With a fly line, it’s: bottom of loop doesn’t really move (the first ten feet from your rod tip go forward and just hang there while the rest of the line unfurls); the top of your loop — the part that’s accelerating forward the fastest — moves maybe a hundred feet or more, displacing air while it does so. Why wouldn’t there be lift? I’m convincing myself. Maybe I’ll forward this string to a prof somewhere for analysis…

Response:

Well, that was a lot of interesting stuff, but for me the problem is that a fly line moving through the air probably does not fit the definition of a solid object.  If it’s in a straight line with force being applied in direct opposition at each end, maybe.  When it’s furled and forces are acting at different angles, I don’t think so. OK, thanks for the reference. Good page! However, it tends to confirm my theory. Here are three relevant excerpts from NASA’s explanation of lift:

Regards, Jeff

Response:

No matter what happens, give yourself a steady casting tempo, don’t rush a casting direction because you fear the line will hit the water mid cast. Watching someone cast is alright but it is the ‘feel’ of a cast that is most difficult to put into words.  Have someone take you in-hand to let you know what a cast feels like and not just what it looks like!

Possibly the most sensible thing that has been written about casting a fly! The *FEEL* of what is happening to the line is vital. — Bill http://www.graigroad.demon.co.uk

Response:

Also learn to look at the loops created when you cast, especially the one behind you. I was given some pictures of myself fishing a couple years ago when I was starting, and the loops were great big open things, which couldn’t transmit any power or forward momentum to the line. What you want is a reasonably small loop that actually looks like the leading edge of an airplane wing (I heard tell the line actually "flies" that way). Too big, no power and no distance. Too small (too quick a tempo), and you may pop a fly off and/or cut the tip of your rod off if a heavy setup hits it. Look at some pics of casters in brochures and books and you’ll see the golden mean!

Response:

What you want is a reasonably small loop that actually looks like the leading edge of an airplane wing (I heard tell the line actually "flies" that way).

That would be impossible since the line is flexible. Regards, Jeff

Response:

I’m not so sure. Clearly a moving fly line is affected in some way by the air around it; otherwise we’d all use soft rods on windy days. The question is what kind of aerodynamics are involved. I think fluid dynamics would apply. In water, similar wave structures can be created either with the water moving and the wave staying still (rivers)(analogize the "flexible" water with the "flexible" line?) or with the water staying basically motionless but the wave moving (oceans). A flycast (as it unrolls-not necessarily on the backcast) is sort of like an ocean wave; the bottom of the loop consists of line that’s no longer moving but the loop still moves forward, unfurling. Is there any reason why that unfurling loop couldn’t have lift? Any aero engineers out there? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What you want is a reasonably small loop that actually looks like the leading edge of an airplane wing (I heard tell the line actually "flies" that way). That would be impossible since the line is flexible.

Response:

Question:

ROFL.  You got it, Bob.  Good advice.  However, you forgot goats, trees, lawyers, and boiled peanuts!  <g

Response:

BASTAARRRDDD!!!

Response:

Boiled Peanuts, what the hell are boiled peanuts??

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ROFL.  You got it, Bob.  Good advice.  However, you forgot goats, trees, lawyers, and boiled peanuts!  <g

Response:

Boiled Peanuts, what the hell are boiled peanuts??

Well, not to put too fine a point on it but, they are peanuts that have been boiled.      

Response:

Hello everyone, I have decided to try this thing called Fly fishing.  I live in Northeast Ohio and will be fishing for Smallmouth, Steelhead and a stray Salmon most of the time. I don’t have a small fortune to spend, so I need some input on what I need and what size.     I have been doing some reading on fly fishing and I understand some of the termanology that goes along with it. There is a hell of alot to learn and I don’t even own a rod yet  HELP Thanks Jim Vonderau

Response:

Hello everyone, I have decided to try this thing called Fly fishing.  I live in Northeast Ohio and will be fishing for Smallmouth, Steelhead and a stray Salmon most of the time. I don’t have a small fortune to spend, so I need some input on what I need and what size.     I have been doing some reading on fly fishing and I understand some of the termanology that goes along with it. There is a hell of alot to learn and I don’t even own a rod yet  HELP Thanks Jim Vonderau

Uh, oh… Get ready James… You’ve just called in an artillery strike at your chair!! INCOMING!!! — Michael Era

Question:

I want information about flyfishing on the seychelles.

Response:

Three of us have booked a trip to the Seychelles next March through Indian Ocean Angling Adventures.  We need 2 or 3 more to join us or we will have to cancel as its too much $$ for three.  If you might be interested e-mail me at different groups who have gone there and they all said the same thing …way better than XMAS Island. Steve

Response:

I want information about flyfishing on the seychelles.

You can get all the info you want from us – Anna and martin lewis.  Fax us on (248) 344266 or We discovered and developed flyfishing in the seychelles – been in the business now for 10 years. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I want information about flyfishing on the seychelles. Dear Lasse,

We have been running a fishing operation in the Seychelles for 10 years.  For the past two years we have concentrated on saltwater flyfishing specifically for bone fish and trevally. We have been very successful over the past two years and now have four world records pending ratification. If you wish to visit our website – it will soon be changed – you will gain an idea of what we do.  Go to altavista and type in seychelles + flyfishing.  Tam Tam should come up. Look forward to hearing from you. Regards Martin and Anna Lewis Tam Tam Tel +248 344266 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Question:

Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy

vendettas. "supply a service ?" You have a serious misconception of the usenet don_in_ottawa. I am incensed by the gall of your post. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

"supply a service ?" You have a serious misconception of the usenet don_in_ottawa. I am incensed by the gall of your post. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

  Go get him Timbo "release the hounds"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas. "supply a service ?" You have a serious misconception of the usenet don_in_ottawa. I am incensed by the gall of your post. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

I agree with you Tim….if he wants service…I think he ought to send us some friggin’ money. TANSTAAFL  ..uhhh…US dollars please. –Wataugan Walt

Response:

Damn, there are sharks in this stream! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas. "supply a service ?" You have a serious misconception of the usenet don_in_ottawa. I am incensed by the gall of your post. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…" I agree with you Tim….if he wants service…I think he ought to send us some friggin’ money. TANSTAAFL  ..uhhh…US dollars please. –Wataugan Walt

Response:

Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas.

        oh, golly, don, thanks for putting us in our place.  let’s see:  do you think sage rods are better than orvis?  here’s the hot tip on the yellowstone this week:  tie on (with an improved clinch, of course) a adams in the morning, a royal wulff in the mid-day, and an elk hair caddis near dark.  btw, do you think 2mm waders are sufficient for late june on the au sable?  hey, have you got a load of the new 50 pocket vest from l.l. bean?  it holds all 350 patterns of bwo’s i’ve identified after a long weekend in the loving arms of a.k. best.  ad infinitum.  ad nauseum.  nighty night.         a. wayne harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Don writes: Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas. Welcome to ROFF, Don! Like it or not, that’s the way this newsgroup goes. You can sort through for the useful info, as it will be there. You are, however, asking for trouble with posts like this,as the rabid dogs will search you out. Tim Patterson may even post a web page about you, but I think his server is pretty well Ginked up….                                         Tom Littleton

______  ha!  that’s funny, Tim.  In fact,you’re not far off from our famous motto and in Tim Patterson’s case,  "Gink Keeps It Up" includes him.  Isn’t what your saying is, "Without me, Tim Patterson couldn’t make it?" hum?  You may have a point? I have a problem though, Tim.  I keep releasing him but he keeps coming back.  Possibly we should start a new group?  rec.outdoors.fishing.boomerang.suckers.tim (?) mercy.

Response:

Yea, good idea!  Let’s start!!  You go first!! Uh.. hello?  You there Don? Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas.

-Mark/Particle Salad Particle Salad/Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad

Response:

Ya I’m here but after many years of intermittent fly fishing on west coast and back east in Ontario and Quebec, I modestly don’t feel I have the expertese to significantly contribute  to the body of knowledge in the literature and what is commonly known. That being the case, I peruse this UG occasionally to see if anything of note has been said. I am well tackled (no pun intended) but am a very unaccomplished tyer. I am no purist and do not practice C & R, primarily because my friends and I have been doing our own stocking for many years in lakes which do not permit natural reproduction of either specs or rb. Rarely do I meet an opportunity to use dries and we normally use nymphs and streamers, of which we have developed a few local patterns. I have my own ideas which I do not inflict on others, except I cast right, real left and preach this to anybody who will listen. And I’ve been using George’s stuff for many years, which I suppose will bring more brick-bats….. Unfortunately, I don’t get out as much as I would like but hope springs eternal amd I have asperations of hooking one of the Ottawa River browns which are coming along nicely, so I am told. For those of you who do get out and into the back country, who love maps etc. and are interested in GPS as an aid to your travels, check out this URL where most of my time on line goes:           http://www.synapse.net/~dbartlett/gpsutm.htm This is NOT a commercial site. Don Bartlett Yea, good idea!  Let’s start!!  You go first!! Uh.. hello?  You there Don?

Response:

Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas.

Response:

Don writes: Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas.

Welcome to ROFF, Don! Like it or not, that’s the way this newsgroup goes. You can sort through for the useful info, as it will be there. You are, however, asking for trouble with posts like this,as the rabid dogs will search you out. Tim Patterson may even post a web page about you, but I think his server is pretty well Ginked up….                                         Tom Littleton

Response:

Question:

I am a beginning commercial fly tyer.  I have been at it for about a year and I find that one of the slowest aspects of my production tying is that of hair stacking (particularly calf tail/body). Does anyone know of any tools/methods that would serve to make this process more automated when tying large orders?  Any other hints on speed/production tying would be appreciated.

Response:

I am a beginning commercial fly tyer.  I have been at it for about a year and I find that one of the slowest aspects of my production tying is that of hair stacking (particularly calf tail/body). Does anyone know of any tools/methods that would serve to make this process more automated when tying large orders?  Any other hints on speed/production tying would be appreciated.

Hi Mike I’ve been a commercial tiers for 39 years, the last 28 I’ve tied hair wing flies. When I started tying hair wings I purchased 24 hair stackers. When they are loaded I have the makings for a dozen wings and tails and thus a dozen hair wing flies. It really save a lot of time over constantly picking up and laying down the hair as you tie each pattern. It also helps in keeping track of the number of flies completed and only takes about 5 minutes to load them. You should be able to buy the stackers wholesale. If you have trouble finding a source let me know, I can get Griffins hair stackers for you for wholesale prices ($3.30 per each). Good Luck and if you need any additional info. let me know. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response:

I built a hair stacker for a dozen flies. It is simply a board with flat bottom holes bored about 1/2 into the board ( a cabinet shop will be able to do this). I then inserted a collar of copper tubing into the bottom of the whole. The collar allows the stacked end of hair to extend beyond the end of the tube. The tube itself is copper tubing and flared at the end just like a regular hairstacker. The board can be loaded fairly rapidly and all the stacks can be evened by tapping the board on the counter top. I beveled one edge of the board so it can be stood on edge and the tubes are slanted. This allows for easy removal. As Al stated, it also helps keep track of the dozens tied. This is the pits when you are in the middle of 50 dozen size 12 Elk Hair Caddis ** Vic Brockett     <<< I fish therefore I am  ** ** Vic’s Fly-By-Night <<< Read "The River Why" **

Response:

I am a beginning commercial fly tyer.  I have been at it for about a year and I find that one of the slowest aspects of my production tying is that of hair stacking (particularly calf tail/body). Does anyone know of any tools/methods that would serve to make this process more automated when tying large orders?  Any other hints on speed/production tying would be appreciated.

Skip Morris suggests stacking a whole bunch at once, and attaching the tip ends to a piece of masking tape, fold the tape over, then hold the whole deal together with a bulldog clip. Scott Univ. of Rochester Med. Ctr.            Phone(716)275-6399 Dept. of Neurology, Box 605               Fax(716)244-4617 Rochester, NY  14642

Response:

Question:

I will be going to the the Gulf Coast of Florida (Fort Myers area, Captiva Island) to do some fishing in about a month and am looking for a good guide for some light tackle fly fishing.   Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.                                                         —Ken Ross

Response:

I will be going to the the Gulf Coast of Florida (Fort Myers area, Captiva Island) to do some fishing in about a month and am looking for a good guide for some light tackle fly fishing.   Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Call Dale Houchin 813-277-9409 Captain of the "Grand Slam" ….Light spinning and Fly If he is booked he can recommend someone

Response:

If you go to Clearwater area (Homassassa Springs) Contact Captain Earl well but he worked hard trying to put me onto fish.  American Angler had article on redfish in July-October ‘88 issue if you can get your hands on it. Thats where I got Earls name. Its a beautiful area – and it’s Tarpon time! Good Luck IBFISHN (Rodney Bauch)

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Question:

I am trying to create a ‘fly database’ which would include flies, materials and instructions for tying the fly, as well as maybe background on when to use the particular fly and where.  This db will eventually be online on my web page. If you would like to contribute (with acknowledgements) then please do so, this will be a very good resource for all. An example entry to the archive would be: Name of fly: Type of fly: Entymology, history etc: When generally used: Where used: Materials used for fly: Instructions/Steps for tying fly. any other information you might have. If you have any questions please send me mail for this as well… Matt — NICOH Net Internet Access Provider for Eastern Idaho

Response:

        Are you aware that there is already a "virtual flybox" on the ‘Net which has various fly dressings?

Response:

I am trying to create a ‘fly database’ which would include flies, materials and instructions for tying the fly, as well as maybe background on when to use the particular fly and where.  This db will eventually be online on my web page. If you would like to contribute (with acknowledgements) then please do so, this will be a very good resource for all.

There is a program available that will do that and keep pictures of your flies. See http://www.mind.net/vmt/ You can keep an inventory of any equipment, flies, and track expenses. You can have unlimited logs for each trip and unlimited trips. Presentation, water clarity, temperature, weather and other info is tracked in the fishing logs. The guys that wrote the program are fly fisherman that have been programming (and fishing) for many years.

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Question:

This group is so full of guys with boats and sonar. Has anybody thought of creating a new group rec.outdoors.guy.boat.sonar? Seriously, aren’t there any flyfishers out there?  Has the world gone completely to sonar … -john

Just a few weeks ago the complaint was ‘are there only flyfishers here?’ or did you know that Its starting to warm up here- may hit 70F soon. flyfishers are starting to crawlout of hibernation (read tying den)– stoneflies are hatching– ITS TIME! BTW, I always use a fishfinder when I go flyfishing— polaroids + hares’ ear nymph in case the water is a little turbid or the pool is too deep to see in. mike

Response:

I don’t know how everybody else felt about the two a day fillet knife postings, but I really don’t like reading ads, so after I asked the guy to stop twice, and he didn’t, I complained to Berkeley and they inactivated his account. I hope he didn’t have any important projects due 8-). Usenet is not for commercial posting. University equipment is generally not for commercial posting. Now, back to your regularly scheduled fishing news. This group is so full of guys with boats and sonar. Has anybody thought of creating a new group rec.outdoors.guy.boat.sonar? Seriously, aren’t there any flyfishers out there?  Has the world gone completely to sonar driving thick thumbed baitcasting bass and tuna fishers? Well, I guess the guys with boats and sonar pretty much don’t have anything to do all winter until iceout. We flyfishers just tie and post and tie and post. The weather sucks here too. -john — John Danskin                    | (609) 258-5386                  | Gradual student (609) 258-1771 fax              | Graphics systems

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I don’t know how everybody else felt about the two a day fillet knife postings, but I really don’t like reading ads, so after I asked the guy to stop twice, and he didn’t, I complained to Berkeley and they inactivated his account. I hope he didn’t have any important projects due 8-). Usenet is not for commercial posting. University equipment is generally not for commercial posting. Now, back to your regularly scheduled fishing news. This group is so full of guys with boats and sonar. Has anybody thought of creating a new group rec.outdoors.guy.boat.sonar? Seriously, aren’t there any flyfishers out there?  Has the world gone completely to sonar driving thick thumbed baitcasting bass and tuna fishers? Well, I guess the guys with boats and sonar pretty much don’t have anything to do all winter until iceout. We flyfishers just tie and post and tie and post.

        John,         Are you quite done giving your self-righteous decree of what should be posted in this group? My belief is that this group is for any subject-matter related to fishing. Fillet knives are definitely a part of fishing! How was this any different from the posts you see where some person either has a trolling motor for sale or is looking to buy one?! Who died and made you God?!         Larry

Response:

  I am planning to go up to Norfolk(?) lake in N. Arkansas (east of Bull Shoals lake) on the last week of April. Any hints on what to expect up there? The lady told me everything will be biting, crappie, bass, striper, sandies, everything. Are there `bows up there? I will be renting a decent bassboat so I will be mobile. I wanted to see what ya’ll say, so I will not be unprepared when I go. I have the standard bass gear, plus UL, spinning gear, and my flyrod. The little woman will be with me, so at least one person will outfish me d8^)!                                           thanks,                                                    Daty

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I don’t know how everybody else felt about the two a day fillet knife postings, but I really don’t like reading ads, so after I asked the guy to stop twice, and he didn’t, I complained to Berkeley and they inactivated his account. I hope he didn’t have any important projects due 8-). Usenet is not for commercial posting. University equipment is generally not for commercial posting. Now, back to your regularly scheduled fishing news. This group is so full of guys with boats and sonar. Has anybody thought of creating a new group rec.outdoors.guy.boat.sonar? Seriously, aren’t there any flyfishers out there?  Has the world gone completely to sonar driving thick thumbed baitcasting bass and tuna fishers? Well, I guess the guys with boats and sonar pretty much don’t have anything to do all winter until iceout. We flyfishers just tie and post and tie and post. The weather sucks here too. -john — John Danskin                        | (609) 258-5386                      | Gradual student (609) 258-1771 fax              | Graphics systems

Actually, many of us bass fishers do so because it is the only game in town.  I was an avid fly fisher until I was forced to live in San Antonio (yes, I know there are stocked trout near here, but it is hard to elbow your way in between all the corn fishers).  I have fly fished for bass (and tied my own bugs).  But are bass fishers and their depthfinders really that different from trout fishers and their 300+ dollar fly rods? If you want to be a gadgeteer, you can do it anywhere. Just a thought Noel Montgomery p.s.:  There is no ice out in SA TX, we catch fish year round.

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|  My belief is that this group is for any | subject-matter related to fishing. Fillet knives are definitely a part of | fishing! How was this any different from the posts you see where some person | either has a trolling motor for sale or is looking to buy one?! Who died and | made you God?! |   Larry Actually Larry, there is quite a bit of difference between a person who wants to get rid of his personal trolling motor (or wants to buy a used one) and a guy who is running a business for profit and is advertising on the net.  On the other hand, if something offends me, I just don’t read it.  BTW everyone it is REALLY Spring in the Southland,  I fished Fri,Sat,Sun and got a pretty good sunburn through some SPF-25 lotion!                         -Pat. p.s. nobody had to die, I’ve always been God.   p.p.s.  I haven’t gotten many replies, anyone have a used light saltwater         conventional reel for sale?  (noncommercial responses         only please :}  ).

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