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Question:

It’s Christmas time again….. Therefore, here is my Christmas greeting card for you, as you will find at the following address since posting binaries to non-binary newsgroups isn’t allowed: http://home.online.no/~stigbye/christmas_cards/rec_outdoors_fishing_f… Cheers, Stig Arne Bye

And a Merry Christmas, Happy Solstice and all that to you and all the ROFFians, too. — rbc:vixen,Minnow Goddess,Willow Watcher,and all that sort of thing. Often taunted by trout. Very slow on replying to email. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Response:

It’s Christmas time again….. Therefore, here is my Christmas greeting card for you, as you will find at the following address since posting binaries to non-binary newsgroups isn’t allowed: http://home.online.no/~stigbye/christmas_cards/rec_outdoors_fishing_f… Cheers, Stig Arne Bye

Response:

Question:

Are there any websites that show step-by-step PICTURES or better yet mpeg movie showing the double haul in action???

http://www.mysportsguru.com/CDA/Article/0,1093,1-1007-1672-2007,00.html is one. — Charlie…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 5) There are three forward motions that must be in unison for the double haul. a) The rod hand that moves forward, toward the front of the ear. 1) This is the move that removes line slack behind the caster. b) The turn over of the wrist. c) The haul that occurs DURING the instant the wrist starts to turn over DURING the simultaneous forward thrust of the fist. In other words, the hand comes forward and as you pass your ear, the thumb starts to turn over, driving the bend of the rod farther into the butt at the same instant the haul is applied which drives all the power farther into the butt which collects more power, bending the rod even more. Here is where a micro-second is required to hold onto the fly line and not releasing it just then. The haul hand comes down and time is allowed in the fly rod to increase the line speed. As soon as the tip of the fly rod is about forward, the haul hand releases the fly line . . . and you let her fly! HINT: Keep the tip higher than you normally do for maximum distance. There is more, but this is as simple as I can make it right now. One demo is worth a thousand words. But! Let us all remember that fly lines are really weak rubber bands and stretching a fly line out first is paramount so one can make it as tight as possible before you can really increase fly line speed properly. Hope some of this helps, and yes, there is a difference between the single haul and the double haul.

Are there any websites that show step-by-step PICTURES or better yet mpeg movie showing the double haul in action??? Thanks in advance, dave

Response:

I believe you misspelled pathology. Wolfgang

As with your foot in mouth posts? A Pathobiology fact noted by many Roffians regarding your off subject howlings? hummmm? Casting is a pathology quirk, eh? guilty. — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

______ You’re a hard working man Bill and deserve the best in all things. Plan on meeting me in Montana this year if you can find a ten day slot. My last stint at the Mayo Clinic and after hours in the operating room, is a wonderful success. I’m indeed a fortunate man. Again, Happy New Year Bill. George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi George and the rest of you wonderful ROFFers out there, I am here in Nor Cal in my old boxer shorts with a cup of coffee. I have to go into the shop this morning after a couple of days off. Had a nice Christmas with the family. I hope you are all feeling strong and healthy. I hope 2001 is a great year for you all. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com I have a break here today, in between Morning Presents and a beautiful turkey with all the fixings soon to be presented to many friends and relatives. It is clear here today, crisp and bright as geese fly up and down the river looking for fresh graze. From the Book of Gink: AXIOMS 1) There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast. It is called, "Line Speed." The greater the line speed the farther one can cast. 2) Fly lines, like rubber bands, stretch. As long as this slack remains (WITHIN Fly lines) while fly casting, energy is required to remove it. That which is required to do so do NOT increase the line speed until the stretch is removed in all fly lines. The tighter the line, the greater the line speed can be applied into a tightly taunt line. 3) The greatest power that can be applied to a fly line is in the potential energy stored in the butt section of all fly rods. Getting to that power is the question. How do we do that? 4) Fly rods are also fulcrums. If one half a fly rod, from the tip to the mid section is bent during the forward cast, any applied power beyond these forward power curves is not unlike a long pole under a big rock with the fulcrum moved CLOSER to the weight. In this case, the butt section! 5) There are three forward motions that must be in unison for the double haul. a) The rod hand that moves forward, toward the front of the ear. 1) This is the move that removes line slack behind the caster. b) The turn over of the wrist. c) The haul that occurs DURING the instant the wrist starts to turn over DURING the simultaneous forward thrust of the fist. In other words, the hand comes forward and as you pass your ear, the thumb starts to turn over, driving the bend of the rod farther into the butt at the same instant the haul is applied which drives all the power farther into the butt which collects more power, bending the rod even more. Here is where a micro-second is required to hold onto the fly line and not releasing it just then. The haul hand comes down and time is allowed in the fly rod to increase the line speed. As soon as the tip of the fly rod is about forward, the haul hand releases the fly line . . . and you let her fly! HINT: Keep the tip higher than you normally do for maximum distance. There is more, but this is as simple as I can make it right now. One demo is worth a thousand words. But! Let us all remember that fly lines are really weak rubber bands and stretching a fly line out first is paramount so one can make it as tight as possible before you can really increase fly line speed properly. Hope some of this helps, and yes, there is a difference between the single haul and the double haul. Merry Christmas. — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

– Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

Steve is a marvelous teacher and instructor. I can’t count the number of times he would watch me cast at a show and point out some new quirk I had picked up.

Big deal, we’ve been pointing out your quirks – old and new – for years. Not much of a challenge, either…

Response:

I believe you misspelled pathology. Wolfgang always glad to be of service

Response:

Tony, Don’t forget that loop size also determines how far the cast will go. Ernie "Tony Bishop" wrote <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast, it is called **line acceleration** the rate of change in line speed. Tony Bishop

Response:

Hello, I chanced upon a reference to a scientific paper which might be of interest to those technically inclined: John Robson The Physics of Flycasting American Journal of Physics, 1990 I made a note of it but have not looked for it in a library and read it (yet) so I don’t know if it is relevant to your discussion. Regards, Yuji Sakuma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George, I pretty much agree with all you said, except the very first point, I rthink it should read: There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast, it is called **line acceleration** the rate of change in line speed. Loading the rod, using haul(s), wrist snaps, etc. evrything you and others have listed, all should contribute to increasing line acceleration during the casting stroke. If the line is not accelerating at the end of the casting stroke and when the rod unloads, the line will immediately begin to fall. I find that once a client understands feeling the weight on the backcast, and then adds the little tweaks on the way to the end of the casting stroke, the quicker they learn to maiximise distance and accuracy. Just by the by, I rarely use a double haul, only occasionally using a single haul, and that is when using 9 weights in the big rivers with big flies or heavy nymphs, or in the saltwater. And leaving my modesty behind I can toss out most of a flyline when I have to, without hauling. I go along with Lefty Kreh who said something along the lines of, hauling and such too often teaches someone to cast their mistakes further. — Tony Bishop New Zealand http://bishfish.co.nz

Response:

There’s other things than line speed that effect distance, such as aerodynamics. e.g. It’s easy to cast a number 20 GRHE than a bundel of flank feathers. You also have differences in changes in Center of Gravity (tight loop vs. open loop) to name a few. Also the forward and backward motion of the shoulder plays a big part. Lou – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a break here today, in between Morning Presents and a beautiful turkey with all the fixings soon to be presented to many friends and relatives. It is clear here today, crisp and bright as geese fly up and down the river looking for fresh graze. From the Book of Gink: AXIOMS 1) There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast. It is called, "Line Speed." The greater the line speed the farther one can cast. 2) Fly lines, like rubber bands, stretch. As long as this slack remains (WITHIN Fly lines) while fly casting, energy is required to remove it. That which is required to do so do NOT increase the line speed until the stretch is removed in all fly lines. The tighter the line, the greater the line speed can be applied into a tightly taunt line. 3) The greatest power that can be applied to a fly line is in the potential energy stored in the butt section of all fly rods. Getting to that power is the question. How do we do that? 4) Fly rods are also fulcrums. If one half a fly rod, from the tip to the mid section is bent during the forward cast, any applied power beyond these forward power curves is not unlike a long pole under a big rock with the fulcrum moved CLOSER to the weight. In this case, the butt section! 5) There are three forward motions that must be in unison for the double haul. a) The rod hand that moves forward, toward the front of the ear. 1) This is the move that removes line slack behind the caster. b) The turn over of the wrist. c) The haul that occurs DURING the instant the wrist starts to turn over DURING the simultaneous forward thrust of the fist. In other words, the hand comes forward and as you pass your ear, the thumb starts to turn over, driving the bend of the rod farther into the butt at the same instant the haul is applied which drives all the power farther into the butt which collects more power, bending the rod even more. Here is where a micro-second is required to hold onto the fly line and not releasing it just then. The haul hand comes down and time is allowed in the fly rod to increase the line speed. As soon as the tip of the fly rod is about forward, the haul hand releases the fly line . . . and you let her fly! HINT: Keep the tip higher than you normally do for maximum distance. There is more, but this is as simple as I can make it right now. One demo is worth a thousand words. But! Let us all remember that fly lines are really weak rubber bands and stretching a fly line out first is paramount so one can make it as tight as possible before you can really increase fly line speed properly. Hope some of this helps, and yes, there is a difference between the single haul and the double haul. Merry Christmas. — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

Hi George and the rest of you wonderful ROFFers out there, I am here in Nor Cal in my old boxer shorts with a cup of coffee. I have to go into the shop this morning after a couple of days off. Had a nice Christmas with the family. I hope you are all feeling strong and healthy. I hope 2001 is a great year for you all. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a break here today, in between Morning Presents and a beautiful turkey with all the fixings soon to be presented to many friends and relatives. It is clear here today, crisp and bright as geese fly up and down the river looking for fresh graze. From the Book of Gink: AXIOMS 1) There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast. It is called, "Line Speed." The greater the line speed the farther one can cast. 2) Fly lines, like rubber bands, stretch. As long as this slack remains (WITHIN Fly lines) while fly casting, energy is required to remove it. That which is required to do so do NOT increase the line speed until the stretch is removed in all fly lines. The tighter the line, the greater the line speed can be applied into a tightly taunt line. 3) The greatest power that can be applied to a fly line is in the potential energy stored in the butt section of all fly rods. Getting to that power is the question. How do we do that? 4) Fly rods are also fulcrums. If one half a fly rod, from the tip to the mid section is bent during the forward cast, any applied power beyond these forward power curves is not unlike a long pole under a big rock with the fulcrum moved CLOSER to the weight. In this case, the butt section! 5) There are three forward motions that must be in unison for the double haul. a) The rod hand that moves forward, toward the front of the ear. 1) This is the move that removes line slack behind the caster. b) The turn over of the wrist. c) The haul that occurs DURING the instant the wrist starts to turn over DURING the simultaneous forward thrust of the fist. In other words, the hand comes forward and as you pass your ear, the thumb starts to turn over, driving the bend of the rod farther into the butt at the same instant the haul is applied which drives all the power farther into the butt which collects more power, bending the rod even more. Here is where a micro-second is required to hold onto the fly line and not releasing it just then. The haul hand comes down and time is allowed in the fly rod to increase the line speed. As soon as the tip of the fly rod is about forward, the haul hand releases the fly line . . . and you let her fly! HINT: Keep the tip higher than you normally do for maximum distance. There is more, but this is as simple as I can make it right now. One demo is worth a thousand words. But! Let us all remember that fly lines are really weak rubber bands and stretching a fly line out first is paramount so one can make it as tight as possible before you can really increase fly line speed properly. Hope some of this helps, and yes, there is a difference between the single haul and the double haul. Merry Christmas. — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George, I pretty much agree with all you said, except the very first point, I rthink it should read: There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast, it is called **line acceleration** the rate of change in line speed. Loading the rod, using haul(s), wrist snaps, etc. evrything you and others have listed, all should contribute to increasing line acceleration during the casting stroke. If the line is not accelerating at the end of the casting stroke and when the rod unloads, the line will immediately begin to fall. I find that once a client understands feeling the weight on the backcast, and then adds the little tweaks on the way to the end of the casting stroke, the quicker they learn to maiximise distance and accuracy. Just by the by, I rarely use a double haul, only occasionally using a single haul, and that is when using 9 weights in the big rivers with big flies or heavy nymphs, or in the saltwater. And leaving my modesty behind I can toss out most of a flyline when I have to, without hauling. I go along with Lefty Kreh who said something along the lines of, hauling and such too often teaches someone to cast their mistakes further. — Tony Bishop New Zealand http://bishfish.co.nz

that has more casting mistakes than any of them and frankly, shouldn’t be teaching casting until he gets his errors corrected by a master. However; Lefty is very popular but it is no excuse to promote incorrect casting techniques. I like Lefty, but there is a limit to condoning the public’s jaundiced eye. Much better teachers are probably everyone else that does so in the industry but the best of the lot, in my opinion is D.Swisher. Another is E. Schwiebert if and when he is available, but the best in the world is Steve Rajif. This is the man Kreh all fly casting teachers should see on occasion. Steve is a marvelous teacher and instructor. I can’t count the number of times he would watch me cast at a show and point out some new quirk I had picked up. By the way, there is going to be a FLY FISHING SHOW IN DENVER this coming January, on the 6th & 7th. I plan to be there with a booth. — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

George, I pretty much agree with all you said, except the very first point, I rthink it should read: There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast, it is called **line acceleration** the rate of change in line speed. Loading the rod, using haul(s), wrist snaps, etc. evrything you and others have listed, all should contribute to increasing line acceleration during the casting stroke. If the line is not accelerating at the end of the casting stroke and when the rod unloads, the line will immediately begin to fall. I find that once a client understands feeling the weight on the backcast, and then adds the little tweaks on the way to the end of the casting stroke, the quicker they learn to maiximise distance and accuracy. Just by the by, I rarely use a double haul, only occasionally using a single haul, and that is when using 9 weights in the big rivers with big flies or heavy nymphs, or in the saltwater. And leaving my modesty behind I can toss out most of a flyline when I have to, without hauling. I go along with Lefty Kreh who said something along the lines of, hauling and such too often teaches someone to cast their mistakes further. — Tony Bishop New Zealand http://bishfish.co.nz

Response:

I have a break here today, in between Morning Presents and a beautiful turkey with all the fixings soon to be presented to many friends and relatives. It is clear here today, crisp and bright as geese fly up and down the river looking for fresh graze. From the Book of Gink: AXIOMS 1) There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast. It is called, "Line Speed." The greater the line speed the farther one can cast. 2) Fly lines, like rubber bands, stretch. As long as this slack remains (WITHIN Fly lines) while fly casting, energy is required to remove it. That which is required to do so do NOT increase the line speed until the stretch is removed in all fly lines. The tighter the line, the greater the line speed can be applied into a tightly taunt line. 3) The greatest power that can be applied to a fly line is in the potential energy stored in the butt section of all fly rods. Getting to that power is the question. How do we do that? 4) Fly rods are also fulcrums. If one half a fly rod, from the tip to the mid section is bent during the forward cast, any applied power beyond these forward power curves is not unlike a long pole under a big rock with the fulcrum moved CLOSER to the weight. In this case, the butt section! 5) There are three forward motions that must be in unison for the double haul. a) The rod hand that moves forward, toward the front of the ear. 1) This is the move that removes line slack behind the caster. b) The turn over of the wrist. c) The haul that occurs DURING the instant the wrist starts to turn over DURING the simultaneous forward thrust of the fist. In other words, the hand comes forward and as you pass your ear, the thumb starts to turn over, driving the bend of the rod farther into the butt at the same instant the haul is applied which drives all the power farther into the butt which collects more power, bending the rod even more. Here is where a micro-second is required to hold onto the fly line and not releasing it just then. The haul hand comes down and time is allowed in the fly rod to increase the line speed. As soon as the tip of the fly rod is about forward, the haul hand releases the fly line . . . and you let her fly! HINT: Keep the tip higher than you normally do for maximum distance. There is more, but this is as simple as I can make it right now. One demo is worth a thousand words. But! Let us all remember that fly lines are really weak rubber bands and stretching a fly line out first is paramount so one can make it as tight as possible before you can really increase fly line speed properly. Hope some of this helps, and yes, there is a difference between the single haul and the double haul. Merry Christmas. — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

Question:

I’m going to be in Bonita Springs, Florida and will have a 17ft Boston Whaler at my disposal for fly fishing from April 29 – May 3rd. Could anyone give me some suggestions on some flies to tie for Snook and Redfish. I’m a trout/steelhead fisherman from Washington State and this will be me first attempt at this type of fishing. Thanks in advance Scott D. Craig The members of this genus (Salvelinus) are by far the most active and handsome of the trout, they live in the coldest, Lacey, WA. cleanest and most secluded waters. Check out the homepage No higher praise can be given to a http://www.eskimo.com/~craigs Salmonid than to say, it is a charr. (Jordan and Evermann 1896) — Scott D. Craig The members of this genus (Salvelinus) Fisheries/Aquatic Biologist are by far the most active and handsome U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service of the trout, they live in the coldest,

Response:

For what it’s worth, most population experts are expecting the world population to hit a peak in the next century and begin to decline.

Are those the same experts who said the DOW wouldn’t go above 4000? — -Wayne Trzyna Fight spam! Join CAUCE (Coalition http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~trzyna See http://www.cauce.org/

Response:

Why single out recreation for fees? What about education, highways, national defense?

A common argument for the fees is, "Let those who use it pay for it." What makes it unique from the rest is that virtually everyone uses education, highways, and defense. Good point, though. Take this fee-based taxation to the extreme, and you’ll see how miserable life can be. Just imaging the nuisance if all roads were toll roads.

Yep. Government is a necessary institution, and I prefer paying for it once per year, not every time I turn around.

Yes, definitely. I think that a yearly pass for the USFS/BLM/NPS is reasonably inexpensive, but I don’t know if that’s just good in one area. The big question is, who should pay for the forests? All citizens or just those who use them? We all like tax cuts, but I’m not sure that the National Forests and the people who use them should have to pay for themselves. Sometimes government funding is necessary. This may be one of those times. — Got maps? TopoWeb does. http://members.xoom.com/Topo_Web

Response:

Why single out recreation for fees? What about education,

Property taxes. Not a good system. The rich get better schools, which perpetuates inequality. highways,

There is a usage fee for highways — the gasoline tax. It should be much higher. national defense?

Since we all benefit from national defense we all pay, through income taxes. I’m not too crazy about paying a million buck a pop for cruise missiles in Kosovo. And if recreationists are paying fees to use the forest, why are loggers and miners in the same forest subsidized?

They shouldn’t be subsidised. Laws governing mining on public lands, in particular, should be reformed. Right now it’s a giveaway. Logging is a little better, but still very bad. Grazing is very bad. All these fees should come up to match private-sector prices. Take this fee-based taxation to the extreme, and you’ll see how miserable life can be. Just imaging the nuisance if all roads were toll roads.

I support a policy that has those that use the resource pay for its upkeep, with some proportion payed by society as a whole. Then the people who use it become stakeholders and they damn well want their money’s worth. — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Up until the past decade, it would have been a naive notion. Not only were the fees not kept by the area used, but I believe (someone will correct me if I’m wrong), they weren’t kept for the use of the system in general. They were dumped into the revenue for the state or US, whichever applied. There’s been a big move of recent years that’s had the effect of keeping more money in the individual places it’s collected, or at least within the parks and forests divisions. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Until I started reading this thread, I was under the naive notion that use fees I’ve been paying help support the resource I’m using. It pisses me off that this is not the case. Don’t get too upset about it. At least if you are using a less popular resource. If everything went back to where it came in, we’d only be left with the Disneylands (Yosemite, Yellostone, etc) — Fight Spam! Join CAUCE (Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial Email) at http://www.cauce.org/ It is there as an experiment to see if email spammers scan content

—– I’m going to live forever or die trying. I only answer my email every few months, on average. Patience helps. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Response:

Until I started reading this thread, I was under the naive notion that use fees I’ve been paying help support the resource I’m using. It pisses me off that this is not the case.

Don’t get too upset about it. At least if you are using a less popular resource. If everything went back to where it came in, we’d only be left with the Disneylands (Yosemite, Yellostone, etc) — Fight Spam! Join CAUCE (Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial Email) at http://www.cauce.org/ It is there as an experiment to see if email spammers scan content — Pete Hickey | | VEIWIT University of Ottawa | | mirrors for Ottawa,Ont. Canada K1N 6N5| (613) 562-5800×1008 | dyslexics.

Response:

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …snipped information should you want to do a search. As for encountering a "standing army of park-police" on a trout stream, that is highly improbable. The US Park Police are only found in a few areas, such as the parks in Washington, DC; the Bay area parks, around the St. Louis arch, and in a few other urban areas. You are much more likely to encounter some impoverished interpretive ranger out on a trail. …snipped Actually Richard, the function of the Park Ranger is almost entirely law enforcement. Most of the "interpretive" work in the parks is now done by volunteers. Take a look at the job recruitment specifications. They want applicants with military and/or law enforcement backgrounds… not naturalists. Even the NPS Ranger school at Grand Canyon is primarily concerned with crowd, traffic and riot control… certainly not interpretation. I backpack in the National Parks extensivley, particularly Yosemite & Sequoia, and on my last several trips the only Rangers I met (both NPS and USFS) were only interested in inspecting my permit. They carried sidearms and had no time to stand and chat about the wonders of nature.

Sorry Kurt, but I speak from experience _as_ a park ranger, and only a small minority of badged personnel actually have law enforcement commissions. In every park in which I have worked, interpretation, resource management and other rangers far outnumber the law enforcement personnel. I know quite well the function of the ranger jobs I have held and my varied responsibilities were not related to law enforcement. As for job recruitments, you can look for yourself on the opm.gov site; most ranger positions do have certifications based on experience in natural history, history or resource management. Yes, some jobs do require a law enforcement commission, but most do not. The Albright Training Center at Grand Canyon is not a law enforcement academy, though some courses are taught there. Most permanent protection rangers instead are schooled at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in the southeast. Rangers still do most of the interpretive work, too, though volunteers are a big help in a time of declining budgets. Your personal experience may indeed have included backcountry rangers checking you for your permit, but that is not what most rangers do at all. I am still pretty certain you have never encountered a US Park Police person in checking permits on the trail; they are not in most wild parks. Still hope your fishing is going well.

Response:

…snipped information should you want to do a search. As for encountering a "standing army of park-police" on a trout stream, that is highly improbable. The US Park Police are only found in a few areas, such as the parks in Washington, DC; the Bay area parks, around the St. Louis arch, and in a few other urban areas. You are much more likely to encounter some impoverished interpretive ranger out on a trail.

…snipped Actually Richard, the function of the Park Ranger is almost entirely law enforcement. Most of the "interpretive" work in the parks is now done by volunteers. Take a look at the job recruitment specifications. They want applicants with military and/or law enforcement backgrounds… not naturalists. Even the NPS Ranger school at Grand Canyon is primarily concerned with crowd, traffic and riot control… certainly not interpretation. I backpack in the National Parks extensivley, particularly Yosemite & Sequoia, and on my last several trips the only Rangers I met (both NPS and USFS) were only interested in inspecting my permit. They carried sidearms and had no time to stand and chat about the wonders of nature. . . . Kurt

Response:

rw I support a policy that has those that use the resource pay for its upkeep, with some proportion payed by society as a whole. Then the people who use it become stakeholders and they damn well want their money’s worth.

I agree with you in principle, the problem of course is setting the balance between support from users and support from the general fund. It certainly should never be the case that use fees go back into the general fund as apparently(according to other sources posting here) they do. Until I started reading this thread, I was under the naive notion that use fees I’ve been paying help support the resource I’m using. It pisses me off that this is not the case. I can see how big business would support use fees as a long term strategy for usurping more resources. Use fees discourage lower income people from using public resources and at the same time sour them toward people who want to use general money, which might otherwise be used for social development, to preserve natural resources . A clever ploy for eroding political support for resource preservation. (Or am I just paranoid?)

Response:

Say what you want,flame to the empty void.You all make some valid points but in the end I dont mind the small fees that pile up every time I turn around.And they do add up (list of last years expenses ommitted,you’re welcome) I like the improvements that I have seen happen to our beloved nat parks.If it keeps out the losers and sends them somewhere else fine.If it means finding a reasonably acommodating restroom when its desired fine.If it keeps the roads in good enough shape, fine.I wish that the industrys that benifit from the parks were footing the bill but I also wish that I was 10 foot tall and bulletproof.none of these things will happen.So what its just money and like love and power its just a collective hallucination.Tell ya what Ill drop an extra five in the next collection box I come across just for you guys. Zoc

Public lands belong to the public and shouldn’t be held hostage for those who can afford them. My next objection is that right now I have so many god damned season passes on my windshield that I can’t see out of it to drive the truck. Nonetheless, despite all the tags, it seems like whatever area I’m entering requires a NEW tag that I don’t have. One national tag would seem reasonable. The current system sucks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Leave no trace or don’t leave home.

Response:

Say what you want,flame to the empty void.You all make some valid points but in the end I dont mind the small fees that pile up every time I turn around.And they do add up (list of last years expenses ommitted,you’re welcome) I like the improvements that I have seen happen to our beloved nat parks.If it keeps out the losers and sends them somewhere else fine.If it means finding a reasonably acommodating restroom when its desired fine.If it keeps the roads in good enough shape, fine.I wish that the industrys that benifit from the parks were footing the bill but I also wish that I was 10 foot tall and bulletproof.none of these things will happen.So what its just money and like love and power its just a collective hallucination.Tell ya what Ill drop an extra five in the next collection box I come across just for you guys. Zoc

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This is irrespective of the fact that this is a clandestine tax increase. These fees go into the general fund. They are not applied to the areas that collect them. Nor are national park entrance fees, by the way. And I’m glad of that. Because the more money the park-managers get, the more they build bureaucratic empires, erect roads and visitors centers, pass pointless regulations, and deploy a standing army of park-police. This is not what a visit to a trout-steam is supposed to be about.

Your information on park entrance fees is somewhat out of date. Under the current demonstration program, 80% of the fees stay in the park that collects them, and the other 20% goes towards other parks. The NPS web site has all the information should you want to do a search. As for encountering a "standing army of park-police" on a trout stream, that is highly improbable. The US Park Police are only found in a few areas, such as the parks in Washington, DC; the Bay area parks, around the St. Louis arch, and in a few other urban areas. You are much more likely to encounter some impoverished interpretive ranger out on a trail. As for building a bureaucratic empire, remember that most developments in the parks are prompted or directed by Congressional legislation. If you really want to make a difference, work through your representatives, and make your voice heard at the ample opportunities parks provide for comment during general management plan revisions and other basic planning processes. Good luck with your fishing.

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Note: Please forward this message to every outdoors person you know. This is one case where the quantity of letters is important. STOP THE COMMERCIALIZATION, PRIVATIZATION AND MOTORIZATION OF PUBLIC LANDS — LETTERS REQUIRED BEFORE APRIL 13, 1999 The Fee-Demonstration Program is currently temporary on some of our national forests. But supporters of the forest fees are working to make fees permanent next year, locking fees in place well before the test program’s scheduled ending in September 2001. At the same time, they are pretending that the American public has no problem with forest fees! The powerful Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee held Fee-Demo hearings on March 3, 1999 – but they did not invite testimony from anyone except those corporations and motorized user groups which support Forest Fees. On April 13th, we will have OUR CHANCE TO BE HEARD when the House Interior Appropriations subcommittee holds its Public Witness Day. Please send a quick letter or postcard by April 10th. State: – Your opposition to forest fees – Ask the subcommittee to increase Forest Service recreation budgets (so as to maintain our National Forests without visitor fees) – Ask that your letter be part of the record for Public Witness Day on April 13th. Send your comments to: Congressman Ralph Regula House Interior Appropriations subcommittee B-308 Rayburn Building Washington, D.C. 20515 Public input is absolutely VITAL if the battle to save our wilderness is going to be won. Letters sent after April 10th are still helpful. The Sierra Club and over 75 other environmental groups oppose the imposition of recreation access and user fees on public lands. Environmental activists oppose user fees on public land, including wilderness lands, for reasons beyond opposition to payment of fees for use of public lands for which the public already pays taxes. The more serious concern is that the recreation fee demonstration program is not a benign effort to fund needed programs but is the leading edge of the recreation industry’s attempts to transform public land recreation into commercial products. The trend to deprive federal agencies of adequate recreation budgets and force them to charge fees instead is directly related to efforts to privatize, commercialize, and motorize recreation on the public lands. Please help by making your concerns known to Congress. For those not yet familiar with the ongoing efforts to turn industrial strength wreckreation into the next extractive forest industry, additional information can be found at the Wild Wilderness web site. http://www.wildwilderness.org PLEASE SEND YOUR LETTER ASAP AND HAVE YOUR FRIENDS DO THE SAME.

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Note: Please forward this message to every outdoors person you know. This is one case where the quantity of letters is important.

Great. So the quality of letters isn’t important? We should just flood D.C. with letters to promote our own interests without any rational discussion? I don’t think so. Even if I agreed with your view, I don’t support campaigns like yours and Bluewater’s. I’m actually not entirely sure where I stand on this issue. Fishermen and hunters have to pay for their activities on public lands. Shouldn’t we? On the other hand, it seems like a crime to have to pay to set foot on "public" land. But then again, you have to pay to get into National Parks (and State Parks, for that matter), whether on foot or in a car. It’s a somewhat complex issue. One thing is sure: Encouraging snail-spam won’t get us anywhere. PLEASE SEND YOUR LETTER ASAP AND HAVE YOUR FRIENDS DO THE SAME.

No, thanks. And I don’t have any friends, thanks. — Got maps? TopoWeb does. http://members.xoom.com/Topo_Web

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I live in a town of less than 200,00 people. Of these are more than 3,000 native born Chinese. Mostly legal. An even larger population of undocumented, illegal Mexicans exist, consequently we have some great Chinese and Mexican food available. Instead of permitting other countries to make their own way we interfere and then let their brightest minds and most courageous individuals jump a boat, raft or even legally immigrate to this once spacious country. For ourselves we cannot think past tomorrow’s paycheck or stock report, all the while bemoaning the loss of jobs and the downsizing used to increase the bottom line. I have long considered that perhaps it is time to use our outdoors as a private club. Buy a lifetime membership now and pay annual dues. The membership could stay with the family, passing down through the generations. As sad as it is, there is, possibly, no other way to preserve our outdoors. . . .Politicians can now garner enough votes to get elected by promising a group of individuals more welfare or unemployment or legal status or whatever, the point is . . .politicians will gladly rape and loot and pillage our resources for another kick-back or term in office. Who then will watch over what we know, under the present system, will one day be gone forever…our children will likely never see an old growth forest. The majority of the time, our influence on young lives is not enough to counter-balance the E. F. Hutton and Niki ads. How many representatives would prosper by telling those in the inner cities, " They would have more if we didn’t waste money on those old parks and forests that no one ever goes to anyway?" What effect would our voices then have in the overall scheme of things. . . .sometimes I think about things like this . . .and then, like I am doing tomorrow, I go fishing before it’s all gone . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . john . . . .

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(comments about the pressures caused by immigration were here) I have long considered that perhaps it is time to use our outdoors as a private club. Buy a lifetime membership now and pay annual dues. The membership could stay with the family, passing down through the

generations. The European aristocracy tried that. It claimed the forests for its own use and attempted to lock out the commoners. It didn’t work out. It wouldn’t here. As sad as it is, there is, possibly, no other way to preserve our

outdoors. If that is true then there is no chance for preservation. Let us hope we can find a feasible way instead. . . .Politicians can now garner enough votes to get elected by promising a group of individuals more welfare or unemployment or legal status or whatever, the point is . . .politicians will gladly rape and loot and pillage our resources for another kick-back or term in office.

Yes, well, that’s virtual democracy for you. Destroy the Constitution, which while still alive circumscribed the areas of activity permitted to the federal government, and what you get in the age of mass media and bloc voting is a government of unlimited powers, including the power to destroy. You also get pols in charge willing and free to do anything, anything at all, that helps them cling to power through just one more election. Who then will watch over what we know, under the present system, will one day be gone forever…our children will likely never see an old growth forest.

Yes, that is quite likely. Smoke ‘em if you got ‘em, while they last. The majority of the time, our influence on young lives is not enough to counter-balance the E. F. Hutton and Niki ads.

No one with such a skewed view of the problem has a prayer of finding a solution. It is not just mass marketers who are creating the culture of immediate gratification that drives virtual democracy. It is also the pols who claim to be working on behalf of those very young lives you mention, and the bureaucrats they hire to carry out the policies bought by the bloc votes and money fountains that give them power. The American state has become a vast superstructure of institutions, public, private and hybrid, that are steadily building their own interlocked system of autonomy and are subject to an ever decreasing level of control by the people. How many representatives would prosper by telling those in the inner cities, " They would have more if we didn’t waste money on those old parks and forests that no one ever goes to anyway?"

Most representatives who have such constituents of course say that to them, though often not in so many words. Elected representatives habitually pander to bloc votes. It’s what they do for a living. The problem is not that, it is that we have allowed the rise of a government, hand in hand with other institutions not usually (and, IMO, mistakenly) not typically seen as part of government, not strictly limited in its permitted powers. That gives those representatives the means to seize and use the people’s resources (all kinds, including tax monies, public lands, whatever) to pay whatever their various bloc votes and campaign contributors demand as the sale price for their critical support during elections. What effect would our voices then have in the overall scheme of things.

By "our" voices, I suppose you mean those of us who love the American outdoors. We tend to be individualistic. Our voices, plural, are individually insignificant against the roar of the organized special interests. We sometimes try organizing ourselves, but it goes against the grain because in order to do it each of us is still forced to subordinate his voice within what inevitably becomes just another special interest institution, one that claims to represent us but that always ends up representing the preferences of a clique or bloc, thus becoming corrupt in exactly the same way the institutions the one we are deluded is "ours" is working to influence. We thereby become part of the problem. . . .sometimes I think about things like this . . .and then, like I am doing tomorrow, I go fishing before it’s all gone . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Smart man. That may well be all you can do. My solution, in fact I think the only possible solution, is reform of the political system to establish a new structure of limits on the power of the American state. That is a revolutionary view, and I do not know how to bring about such drastic change. At least as long as we are as prosperous and well-defended as we now are it is most unlikely to happen, and that means we will continue to experience an erosion of both control of the established power structure of our own society and the resources we outdoors lovers need to pursue our passion. I suspect you right to enjoy what’s left while you can. Stephen W. Anderson Rocky Mount, NC

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I support fees. I think that sufficent user fees should be charged for the BLM and park services to be self-sufficient, BUT NO MORE. At times the adminstration has starved the system, and others treated as a source of general revenues. The US park and land system is one of the better in the world and a major source of international tourism.

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I support fees. I think that sufficent user fees should be charged for the BLM and park services to be self-sufficient, BUT NO MORE. At times the adminstration has starved the system, and others treated as a source of general revenues. The US park and land system is one of the better in the world and a major source of international tourism.

This is all true, but some see the recreation fee program as an effort to shift the burden of support to recreation, and when those revenues fail to meet the needs of the public lands the resource extractors will step in and say "See? Those hikers and fishermen don’t really want all that land, so give it to us instead." For over a century federal tax revenues have subsidized the extraction of minerals, grazing of cattle, and harvest of timber from the public lands. Why should recreationists– whose impact is minimal and needs are few –suddenly be asked to carry the weight when corporate America still benefits from subsidies? Why, for example, shouldn’t an excise tax on minerals pay for campgrounds? If you look at who is supporting the recreation fee demonstration program the lines become clear. If agribusiness, big timber, and mining corporations are for it, then who do you think really stands to benefit? Recreation lands need federal support, but that support should come from those that are converting publically owned resources into private profit, not families that spend two weekends a year camping on the National Forest. -drl — Derek R. Larson Indiana University Dept. of History "Nothing interesting occurred today…" -Meriwether Lewis at Ft. Clatsop, Oregon, Jan.4th, 1806

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(comments about the pressures caused by immigration were here)

Seems like damn near every person has their own private Bogyman about why the fishing and the hunting and the open spaces have gone to hell and their own solution (none of which are going to work) and no one will admit to the real cause. When I was kid the US population was just under a million and a half and I had a ball. Be glad you’re not in your grand kids shoes. Even if they live in Deer Park, Montana they won’t they won’t be able to see much difference if they move to the Bronx. The days of open space are gone. Be glad you at least saw the tail end. Hank

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Seems like damn near every person has their own private Bogyman about why the fishing and the hunting and the open spaces have gone to hell and their own solution (none of which are going to work) and no one will admit to the real cause. When I was kid the US population was just under a million and a half and I had a ball. Be glad you’re not in your grand kids shoes. Even if they live in Deer Park, Montana they won’t they won’t be able to see much difference if they move to the Bronx. The days of open space are gone. Be glad you at least saw the tail end. Hank

Hey Hank, you must be pretty old if the US population was 1.5 million people when you were a kid. For what it’s worth, most population experts are expecting the world population to hit a peak in the next century and begin to decline. Later, - Ken — "Many go fishing all their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after." – Henry David Thoreau

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Just how old are you Hank….One and a half mil….bout 1810 or therabouts? Waldo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (comments about the pressures caused by immigration were here) Seems like damn near every person has their own private Bogyman about why the fishing and the hunting and the open spaces have gone to hell and their own solution (none of which are going to work) and no one will admit to the real cause. When I was kid the US population was just under a million and a half and I had a ball. Be glad you’re not in your grand kids shoes. Even if they live in Deer Park, Montana they won’t they won’t be able to see much difference if they move to the Bronx. The days of open space are gone. Be glad you at least saw the tail end. Hank

– The Blue Ridge Book Gallery P.O. Box 5112 Banner Elk, NC 28604 http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS/HOME.HTM

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Sorry Ken, sometimes the fingers get going before the brain. That was 150 million in the thirties. Got any solution for the excess 5 Billion that showed up in the interim? I don’t, Hank – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hey Hank, you must be pretty old if the US population was 1.5 million people when you were a kid. For what it’s worth, most population experts are expecting the world population to hit a peak in the next century and begin to decline. Later, – Ken — "Many go fishing all their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after." – Henry David Thoreau

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I support fees. I think that sufficent user fees should be charged for the BLM and park services to be self-sufficient, BUT NO MORE. At times the

Why single out recreation for fees? What about education, highways, national defense? And if recreationists are paying fees to use the forest, why are loggers and miners in the same forest subsidized? Take this fee-based taxation to the extreme, and you’ll see how miserable life can be. Just imaging the nuisance if all roads were toll roads. Government is a necessary institution, and I prefer paying for it once per year, not every time I turn around. Also note: these fees do not go to the BLM or park service. They go into the general fund, just like your income tax. Finally, and I think this is the most important point of all, if the value of public lands is measured in economic terms — how much the visitor is willing to pay — this is the first step toward selling off the public lands to the highest bidder. If visitors are only willing to pay $100, and developers are willing to pay $1000, does that mean the developers should have their way? I believe the value of public lands lies much deeper than mere economy. — -Wayne Trzyna Fight spam! Join CAUCE (Coalition http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~trzyna See http://www.cauce.org/

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Sorry Ken, sometimes the fingers get going before the brain. That was 150 million in the thirties. Got any solution for the excess 5 Billion that showed up in the interim? I don’t,

NATO and Milosevic are working on that problem as hard as they both can do. Give ‘em time. Stephen W. Anderson Rocky Mount, NC

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I’m actually not entirely sure where I stand on this issue. Fishermen and hunters have to pay for their activities on public lands.

The point is that under the proposed legislation, in addition the fishing license you already have to buy, and the campground fee you already have to pay, you will also have to pay simply for just being there by the River. The experimental fee programs mentioned already charge $5 per day at the Bighorn and Green rivers for instance. I personally find these programs an obnoxious nuisance at best. Every time I turn around I’m filling out paper-work, paying fees, running around trying to find correct change, etc. This is not what a visit to a trout-stream is supposed to be about. This is irrespective of the fact that this is a clandestine tax increase. These fees go into the general fund. They are not applied to the areas that collect them. Nor are national park entrance fees, by the way. And I’m glad of that. Because the more money the park-managers get, the more they build bureaucratic empires, erect roads and visitors centers, pass pointless regulations, and deploy a standing army of park-police. This is not what a visit to a trout-steam is supposed to be about. I for one feel strongly about this issue and will write a letter. — -Wayne Trzyna Fight spam! Join CAUCE (Coalition http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~trzyna See http://www.cauce.org/

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Question:

Don’t listen to Moe. Take your wife/girlfriend with you and try all the rods you can over a period of 3 wks and keep asking "wada you think about this one". At the end of this time she will (1)suggest you buy it if you like it. (2) Buy the one you seemed to like the most for you. or (3) Inform you she doesn’t give a damn, just buy one and leave her alone.

Funny. That’s the tactic my wife uses on me for shoes. — something bogus to avoid spam)

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You know what Thomas’ last name is don’t you?…..Winston!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – close your eyes and begin saying "thomas & thomas" over and over and over again. the only new rod you’ll ever need. a. wayne harrison, totally subjective t&t freak.

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So why do you like them so much? Mark Faulkner A upgrade in rod would do the most good probally but have you checked out the loop reels. They are amazing! Check out there site at http://www.looptackle.se/

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Or I’ll just go down, buy it park it in the drive and tell her it followed me home, can I keep it, huh can I ? John Popp in Sanford Fl.

John – tried that once – doesn’t work. Mark Faulkner

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Gents (and ladies ..:-) ) I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time to upgrade my equipment. Don’t ask me why, I just feel I can benefit from "better" equipment. I currently own a Pfleuger starter set which my wife bought me a couple of Christmas’ ago. I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel. My gut tells me the rod is the place to build a solid foundation around and look at a new reel down the rod. I fish for trout in the streams and rivers of Washington State and occasionally back home in Calgary Alberta., but again for trout. Stew

Hi Stew, The rod upgrade will make the most difference in your fishing. I’d suggest looking at rods in the $250 price range such as the Orvis Silver Label. I especially like the Silver Label TL’s, but rod choice is very personal. You need to cast as many rods in this price range as you can get your hands on to see what suits you best (half the fun of buying a new rod). Most major manufacturers have rods in this price range and that is where you get the most performance for the money. The top of the line rods usually offer additional performance but at a much greater price. If you were already at the mid-price level, I’d probably be recommending the reel upgrade instead. The rod upgrade pays off everytime you cast it. The reel upgrade pays off when you hook a fish that you have to (get to) play off the reel. Hope this helps, Dan Dan Gracia Orvis

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Another suggestion is to look at a previously owned rod. This way you could take a big jump. I agree with upgrading the rod first, and I too like Orvis Silver Labels. I own one along with several other rods. Consider talking with

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I am waiting for my rod to be repaired (4th time) and fishing with my backup. Your reel seldom breaks, so if you can only get one, get another rod so you can have a spare. -Better yet, get another combo.

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I have only broken one rod in fifty years of flyfishing. I have seven rods, four fiberglass two graphite and one bamboo. I made most of them from blanks because I wanted to see the difference in various manufacturers. You should have a backup rod in case something happens to one. A friend of mine took two rods on a horse pack trip in plastic cases. The packer packed them together on the side of the pack and the horse broke them both, so watch your rods closely or you may not get to fish when you get there. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am waiting for my rod to be repaired (4th time) and fishing with my backup. Your reel seldom breaks, so if you can only get one, get another rod so you can have a spare. -Better yet, get another combo.

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Okay y’all are giving me some good ideas here now ….so what is there to making a rod from a blank? Does it really ssave like when I make my own golf clubs? Where does a person buy blanks and the associated stuff from? Stew – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have only broken one rod in fifty years of flyfishing. I have seven rods, four fiberglass two graphite and one bamboo. I made most of them from blanks because I wanted to see the difference in various manufacturers. You should have a backup rod in case something happens to one. A friend of mine took two rods on a horse pack trip in plastic cases. The packer packed them together on the side of the pack and the horse broke them both, so watch your rods closely or you may not get to fish when you get there. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh I am waiting for my rod to be repaired (4th time) and fishing with my backup. Your reel seldom breaks, so if you can only get one, get another rod so you can have a spare. -Better yet, get another combo.

– # D. Stew McLeod … working at The Boeing Company .. in Renton, WA. #"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; # an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." # - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gents (and ladies ..:-) ) I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time to upgrade my equipment. Don’t ask me why, I just feel I can benefit from "better" equipment. I currently own a Pfleuger starter set which my wife bought me a couple of Christmas’ ago. I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel. My gut tells me the rod is the place to build a solid foundation around and look at a new reel down the rod. I fish for trout in the streams and rivers of Washington State and occasionally back home in Calgary Alberta., but again for trout. Stew — # D. Stew McLeod … working at The Boeing Company .. in Renton, WA. #"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; # an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." # - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Hi Stew, There are lots of great fly rods around $200. Most anglers are fishing 9′ #5 line rods for trout. Sage DS, Scott Alpha & Voyager, Loomis GL2 & 3, T&T Emerger are all great values. These are the entry level rods from the top fly rod manufacturers. Your reel should be OK till it fails to work for you. Good fly lines are $30 to $50, so there is no excuse for not having the best. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

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Or I’ll just go down, buy it park it in the drive and tell her it followed me home, can I keep it, huh can I ? John Popp in Sanford Fl. John – tried that once – doesn’t work. Mark Faulkner

Mark Let her choose the colour and you can get anything you want, (budgets and bank cooperation assuming.) Peter

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I don’t know about that Peter, he would look a little silly in a pink 4-wheel vehicle. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Or I’ll just go down, buy it park it in the drive and tell her it followed me home, can I keep it, huh can I ? John Popp in Sanford Fl. John – tried that once – doesn’t work. Mark Faulkner Mark Let her choose the colour and you can get anything you want, (budgets and bank cooperation assuming.) Peter

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Gents (and ladies ..:-) ) I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time to upgrade my equipment. Don’t ask me why, I just feel I can benefit from "better" equipment. I currently own a Pfleuger starter set which my wife bought me a couple of Christmas’ ago. I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel. My gut tells me the rod is the place to build a solid foundation around and look at a new reel down the rod. I fish for trout in the streams and rivers of Washington State and occasionally back home in Calgary Alberta., but again for trout. Stew

New reel!…at least with a light reel you’ll NOW be able to feel just what your rod is doing….how it’s action is… Until you get a grip on the casting qualities of this rod (which the heavy Pfleuger is Masking!), you won’t know what you really will desire in an expensive rod….especially for a trout rod…..Steelhead, Stripers, Salmon…now the Reel plays a major part of the game…but still….the lighter is usually the better. $.02, steve d.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gents (and ladies ..:-) ) I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time to upgrade my equipment. Don’t ask me why, I just feel I can benefit from "better" equipment. I currently own a Pfleuger starter set which my wife bought me a couple of Christmas’ ago. I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel. My gut tells me the rod is the place to build a solid foundation around and look at a new reel down the rod. I fish for trout in the streams and rivers of Washington State and occasionally back home in Calgary Alberta., but again for trout. Stew — # D. Stew McLeod … working at The Boeing Company .. in Renton, WA. #"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; # an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." # - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Don’t listen to Moe. Take your wife/girlfriend with you and try all the rods you can over a period of 3 wks and keep asking "wada you think about this one". At the end of this time she will (1)suggest you buy it if you like it. (2) Buy the one you seemed to like the most for you. or (3) Inform you she doesn’t give a damn, just buy one and leave her alone. John Popp in Sanford Fl.

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haha i have 2 loops, i love them! — Nicholas J. Slodki

:A upgrade in rod would do the most good probally but have you checked ut the loop reels. They are amazing! Check out there site at :http://www.looptackle.se/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [deleted] I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel. [deleted] I’d spend the money on a few "kitchen passes" myself (i.e. roses for the little lady, dinner perhaps). New rod won’t do you any good while your cleaning out the refrigerator. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Come now Tim, what wife wouldn’t want her hubby to replace his rod with one that has a bit more action ? Also your idea, if accepted on a large scale could cause serious world wide consequences: for instance I’m looking at getting rid of an old dodge slant 6 van (given up on it breaking down and junking it) and replaceing it with a dodge ram 1500 short bed quad cab v8 with tow package and all the goodys, that being the case candy stocks should take a huge rise and at least a couple hundred acres of flower fields will be denuded. Now that new vehicles are out and every one wants a new one, imagine the devistation. Nope I’ll just say something nice and while shes in shock STRIKE. (been married a long time). Or I’ll just go down, buy it park it in the drive and tell her it followed me home, can I keep it, huh can I ? John Popp in Sanford Fl.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gents (and ladies ..:-) ) I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time to upgrade my equipment. Don’t ask me why, I just feel I can benefit from "better" equipment. I currently own a Pfleuger starter set which my wife bought me a couple of Christmas’ ago. I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel. My gut tells me the rod is the place to build a solid foundation around and look at a new reel down the rod. I fish for trout in the streams and rivers of Washington State and occasionally back home in Calgary Alberta., but again for trout. Stew — # D. Stew McLeod … working at The Boeing Company .. in Renton, WA. #"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; # an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." # - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

close your eyes and begin saying "thomas & thomas" over and over and over again. the only new rod you’ll ever need. a. wayne harrison, totally subjective t&t freak. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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D. Stewart McLeod wrote… I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time to upgrade my equipment.

I don’t have any recommendations, but did want to say that as soon as I saw the "What To Upgrade" subject line, I couldn’t help but think of PC hardware and software upgrades. "When was the last release of Pfleuger, Pfleuger 71 or 94? I do know that Pfleuger 71 had to be upgraded with a Service Pack (a machined aluminum foot, sold separately, not available in the OEM releases of Pfleuger) so it could work with a Sage-96, or for that matter, any earlier release of Sage or Orvis. Speaking of Sage-96, why is it so much more expensive than say Sage-90? At least it doesn’t take up more rod-tube space." Someone with far greater writing talents than me could have fun with this. "If Microsoft Sold Fishing Gear" Thomas Gilg

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I’d also suggest upgrading a rod before a reel. the manfacturere already mentioned are all good. You might also look at the Thomas & Thomas emerger series. These rods are priced approximately the same as the Discovery series from Sage and the entry level Loomis’. Tim also makes a good point. "Kitchen passes" are always good to have. Have fun selecting a rod. Chris Brown – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gents (and ladies ..:-) ) I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time to upgrade my equipment. Don’t ask me why, I just feel I can benefit from "better" equipment. I currently own a Pfleuger starter set which my wife bought me a couple of Christmas’ ago. I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel. My gut tells me the rod is the place to build a solid foundation around and look at a new reel down the rod. I fish for trout in the streams and rivers of Washington State and occasionally back home in Calgary Alberta., but again for trout. Stew — # D. Stew McLeod … working at The Boeing Company .. in Renton, WA. #"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; # an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." # - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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A upgrade in rod would do the most good probally but have you checked out the loop reels. They are amazing! Check out there site at http://www.looptackle.se/

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This is a no-brainer in my book, Stew – go for the rod, and have fun casting a bunch of different rods in making the selection. Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gents (and ladies ..:-) ) I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time to upgrade my equipment. Don’t ask me why, I just feel I can benefit from "better" equipment. I currently own a Pfleuger starter set which my wife bought me a couple of Christmas’ ago. I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel. My gut tells me the rod is the place to build a solid foundation around and look at a new reel down the rod. I fish for trout in the streams and rivers of Washington State and occasionally back home in Calgary Alberta., but again for trout. Stew — # D. Stew McLeod … working at The Boeing Company .. in Renton, WA. #"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; # an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." # - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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Gents (and ladies ..:-) ) I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time to upgrade my equipment. Don’t ask me why, I just feel I can benefit from "better" equipment. I currently own a Pfleuger starter set which my wife bought me a couple of Christmas’ ago. I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel. My gut tells me the rod is the place to build a solid foundation around and look at a new reel down the rod. I fish for trout in the streams and rivers of Washington State and occasionally back home in Calgary Alberta., but again for trout. Stew — # D. Stew McLeod … working at The Boeing Company .. in Renton, WA. #"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; # an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." # - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Response:

Steweart writes:

<<Gents (and ladies ..:-) ) I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time to upgrade my equipment. Don’t ask me why, I just feel I can benefit from "better" equipment. I currently own a Pfleuger starter set which my wife bought me a couple of Christmas’ ago. I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel. My gut tells me the rod is the place to build a solid foundation around and look at a new reel down the rod. I fish for trout in the streams and rivers of Washington State and occasionally back home in Calgary Alberta., but again for trout. Stew Stew, I would focus the money on the rod. Unless you are into a lot of big trout, the reel simply holds your line for you. While there is no denying a silky smooth reel is something to drool over, it isn’t necessary for most of us unless you are after steelhead, salmon, bonefish, BIG trout etc. Check out the St. Croix rods or the Reddington line for some nice upgrades. You may also want to check out some of the rod/reel combo’s from Sage, Orvis and Loomis. I know you can get a Sage Discovery with a reel, line and metal tube for around $265 or so. I bought one years ago and still use it a lot. Mike

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[deleted] I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel.

[deleted] I’d spend the money on a few "kitchen passes" myself (i.e. roses for the little lady, dinner perhaps). New rod won’t do you any good while your cleaning out the refrigerator. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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I’d say replace the rod. Check out Orvis, Diamondback, Loomis or St. Croix. They make excellent rods ranging from $95-$500. — Nicholas J. Slodki

:Gents (and ladies ..:-) ) : :I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time :to upgrade my equipment. Don’t ask me why, I just feel I can benefit :from "better" equipment. I currently own a Pfleuger starter set which :my wife bought me a couple of Christmas’ ago. : :I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new :rod or reel. My gut tells me the rod is the place to build a solid :foundation around and look at a new reel down the rod. I fish for trout :in the streams and rivers of Washington State and occasionally back home :in Calgary Alberta., but again for trout. : :Stew : : :– :# D. Stew McLeod … working at The Boeing Company .. in Renton, WA. :#"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; :# an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." :# - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965) : : :

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Question:

Fiddleaway, Check your tippet next time this happens. If your Woolly Bugger is spinning clockwise, next time you tie you should palmer anticlockwise. You may accidentally be tying the version required for fishing in the southern hemisphere. Easy! Cheers John Knight Sydney Fly Rodders’

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Fiddleaway, How heavy a leader are you using? If it’s too light, that might exacerbate the problem. Pete C

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I think that’s it mate. I can probably test my patterns in the tub drain eddy in the bathroom! Thanks. — -dnc- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fiddleaway, Check your tippet next time this happens. If your Woolly Bugger is spinning clockwise, next time you tie you should palmer anticlockwise. You may accidentally be tying the version required for fishing in the southern hemisphere. Easy! Cheers John Knight Sydney Fly Rodders’

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I give up! No matter which orientation I use for the palmer hackle (barbs toward eye or away from eye) my wooly buggers end up twirling (don’t know if it’s when I cast or as I retrieve, but I assume it’s the former). Eventually, the tippet gets so fouled up I have to change it. What a pain. I cannot for the life of me figure out what’s different between mine and the commercially tied ones (which do not exhibit the problem). Any suggestions? — -dnc-

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FiddleAway, could it be that you are using a dry fly hackle and the commercial flies are tid with a softer wet fly hackle? Just guessing. Jim

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Two Suggestions: 1. Put your weight on the front half of the hook and dub filler on the rest beore you use the chenille. 2. Either bead heads or lead eyes help to stabilize the fly. 3. You may not have enough tailing maribou–works kind of like a kite in the wind for this type of fly. Hope this helps. ECJ

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I use died saddle feathers which seem of fairly wet quality. But stiffness is not a quality I’ve paid attention to, so I’ll take more care. Thanks. — -dnc- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – FiddleAway, could it be that you are using a dry fly hackle and the commercial flies are tid with a softer wet fly hackle? Just guessing. Jim

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Yes, I’ve been distributing the weight. Maybe that’s the problem. I’ll try concentrating it at the head. Your tail comment stands to reason although I notice that commercial versions of Wooly worms< (i.e., much less tail) do not have the problem (but my wooly worms do, same as my wooly buggers ????) Thanks for your suggestions. — -dnc- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two Suggestions: 1. Put your weight on the front half of the hook and dub filler on the rest beore you use the chenille. 2. Either bead heads or lead eyes help to stabilize the fly. 3. You may not have enough tailing maribou–works kind of like a kite in the wind for this type of fly. Hope this helps. ECJ

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I give up! No matter which orientation I use for the palmer hackle (barbs toward eye or away from eye) my wooly buggers end up twirling (don’t know if it’s when I cast or as I retrieve, but I assume it’s the former). Eventually, the tippet gets so fouled up I have to change it. What a pain. I cannot for the life of me figure out what’s different between mine and the commercially tied ones (which do not exhibit the problem). Any suggestions? — -dnc-

Take a couple turns of hackle around the head instead of stopping or starting your hackle all of a sudden. bsman

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: Two Suggestions: : 1. Put your weight on the front half of the hook and dub filler on the rest : beore you use the chenille. <snip In addition to stabilizing the fly, this helps it dart around a bit. When I tie ‘em (white wooly bugger is my favorite warm weather fly), I wrap the front half of the shank in lead. Of course, you will want to leave a little space at the front to whip in the head, etc. — http://members.tripod.com/~trunculo/index

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Question:

I am going to Key West in a couple of weeks and was hoping to slip away for a half day and do a little fly fishing on the keys. I will have a car. Is there anywhere that I might go unguided within driving distance of KW where I might have a chance to stumble on fish?

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Try "Saddle Bunch", I know of people who have stepped off of US1 right into the foot deep water and have landed Bonefish there. Its not far from KW if you’re driving you’ll pass right by it. Mark Ballard http://members.aol.com/veromark/fish.html

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Question:

Will be fishing in the Smokey Mountian park week of Nov. 10th . Any information on good patterens or methods would be of great help.

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Will be fishing in the Smokey Mountian park week of Nov. 10th . Any information on good patterens or methods would be of great help.

Check out LJ Decuir’s page at : http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ldecuir/default.html Won’t be much in the way of hatches. Stick to large weighted nymphs. –Rich

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Question:

As a last resort he started to dog paddle,and managed to get enough air (and a bit of water)in his lungs to keep going.He managed to make it to shore. I always assumed that if my tube turned over, I would use the Kayakers’ last restort: a wet exit. I.e., calmly reach down (or is it up?), pull my feet out, and exit the tube. Anyone see a problem with this assumption? Wet exits are the one and only facet of kayaking I’m proficient at, having had lots of practice while trying to learn to roll.

I for one am going to take my tube out in the lake in a controlled situation and flip it until I am comfortable with this "wet exit". I didnt even realize flipping my tube was possible- It’s pretty wide. You got my attention! Jack Jack Wheeler

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Maybe you/they don’t need a hand (i.e. is there a lawsuit pending against the tube manufacturer?

You know, it wasn’t till several hours after I read this comment that it occured to me how offensive it is. Why is it that every time somebody hurts themself we assume it is someone else’s fault? Sue the float tube manufacturer? Come on. Do you really think the float tube is to blame? — -Wayne Trzyna

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On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube Sheesh: you write a post like that to a group consisting of thousands of

… paragraph of inappropriate sarcasm deleted … know? Geez, I mean I might have to put off buying that new reel I want for a whole month or so but I think I could swing it….

You insensitive bastard. I gather no one will shed a tear when your tube flips. Bob Luneski

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe you/they don’t need a hand (i.e. is there a lawsuit pending against the tube manufacturer? You know, it wasn’t till several hours after I read this comment that it occured to me how offensive it is. Why is it that every time somebody hurts themself we assume it is someone else’s fault? Sue the float tube manufacturer? Come on. Do you really think the float tube is to blame? — -Wayne Trzyna

Wayne has a good point, unless of course the manufacurer designed a tube that would obviously flip under normal operation. i.e. shaped like a kayak. If an angler choses to forego a PFD and drowns because the tube completely deflated before going ashore, then too bad. (Which is a different circumstance than the subject victim) I personally limit my use of the float tube to calm still waters on small lakes with land very accessible. I view my tube as the "only" option as a boat on a small pond or lake where a regular boat would be less intimate. Larger waters require a normal boat or even a pram, a tube is not viewed as my "poor man’s boat". No white water adventures here because no fish is worth my life. My condolences to the familiy of the unfortunate angler. — Howard

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Maybe you/they don’t need a hand (i.e. is there a lawsuit pending against the tube manufacturer? You know, it wasn’t till several hours after I read this comment that it occured to me how offensive it is. Why is it that every time somebody hurts themself we assume it is someone else’s fault? Sue the float tube manufacturer? Come on. Do you really think the float tube is to blame?

If it was a manufacturing or design defect, then yes, there is every right to sue, provided that it was being used as intended. It might very well be a design which places the rider COG too high…the lawsuit might 1) get it fixed and 2) save more lives. Something that seems really ludicrous to me is the price of some of the tubes…like Browning…around $50…imagine that, really, something for $50 that has such serious implications, a $50 boat. Hmmmm…boggles the mind…freaking fly line costs more… TimW

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Wheee!

If you can maintain this attitude, you will survive the flip. — -Wayne Trzyna

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: I have spent many an hour in a float tube ,and I must tell you : that I am amazed that anyone has had one flip over on them????? It _CAN_ be done!! I have not managed to do so yet, but there have been times where I leaned way over the side of tube to reach for a snagged line. I would have the opposite side of the tube lift out of the water and start to roll. I am only about 175#, but I used to flip truck tire tubes in the pool when I was a kid by leaning on one side of them. There were times when I had to worry about this, but they are several pounds

ago. My COG is pretty safely placed, now. I did flip once, getting into the water, because I was careless, and tried to walk forward rather than back. Really scary for about 10 seconds. I am really careful, now. I have to say, seems like the carrying straps add to the danger. I don’t use them.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I have spent many an hour in a float tube ,and I must tell you : that I am amazed that anyone has had one flip over on them????? It _CAN_ be done!! I have not managed to do so yet, but there have been times where I leaned way over the side of tube to reach for a snagged line. I would have the opposite side of the tube lift out of the water and start to roll. I am only about 175#, but I used to flip truck tire tubes in the pool when I was a kid by leaning on one side of them. The trick is to stay reasonably centered and keep your butt in the water. Even when I get a big wake from a boat, I easily stay upright and ride it out. Wheee! Jon Porter

In reflection, my previous post might be considered to be flippant and callous regarding the original incident. I meant no disrespect, and extend my sympathies to the family and friends of the unfortunate tuber.

Response:

: I always assumed that if my tube turned over, I would use the Kayakers’ : last restort: a wet exit. I.e., calmly reach down (or is it up?), : pull my feet out, and exit the tube. Anyone see a problem with this : assumption? You should be able to _drop_ out of a tube. I can get into my Caddis with the seat strap buckled while wearing fins. I figure that getting out (even upside down) should not be much harder. The trick is to keep your wits about you when the thing flips! Jon Porter

Your waders will be tough to pull under water upside down. You might give it a try (with help nearby) and let us know how it goes. Sobering thought being upside down with your neoprenes, all snug and airtight, waving around in the breeze. Perhaps the open-ended tubes have more to recommend them than easy entry. John Porter, I’m truely sorry for your loss and appreciate the warning. Good fishing! J. Rice

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With regard to an earlier post of mine to the fellow who’s brother drowned a "Bob" [Last name omitted to protect the guilty] apparently skimmed same and, thinking I was being sarcastic/insensitive, submitted a post of his own with a few of the lines from my post he misconstrued. For the opportunity to restate the point of my original post will gladly forego asking for mea culpa from Bob for wrongful skimming/snipping me to make me sound like a bastard/calling me a bastard/etc., etc. since I also know his heart was in the right place. Thus, again: Here’s hoping the fellow who lost his brother will tell us if his brother’s two boys are in financial straits and, if so, whether and where there’s a trust fund where those of us who are interested can send something. (And oh, Bob, re your calling me a bastard: No hard feelings (Though I hope you didn’t hurt my father’s feelings, whoever he is….)

Response:

On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube over turned in a small pond near Prineville, Oregon. I don’t know what made the tube flip – but I know I will never use one again. Bill left two small boys – Sam, 2 and Jake, 7. Bill was an avid fly fisherman, moving to Prineville to teach science and be closer to the rivers he loved to fish. His last project, about two weeks ago, was to take his class out and they planted 800 trees bordering a stream that had suffered from cattle grazing. I hope the stream recovers… If you have any information on why or how tubes can flip – please drop me a note.

Response:

On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube over turned in a small pond near Prineville, Oregon. I don’t know what made the tube flip – but I know I will never use one again. Bill left two small boys – Sam, 2 and Jake, 7. Bill was an avid fly fisherman, moving to Prineville to teach science and be closer to the rivers he loved to fish. His last project, about two weeks ago, was to take his class out and they planted 800 trees bordering a stream that had suffered from cattle grazing. I hope the stream recovers… If you have any information on why or how tubes can flip – please drop me a note.

I’m sorry to hear about your brother,I offer my condolences.My brother did the same thing,luckily he survied.I was to far from him to help and I just stood there in disbelief.I think he was trying to get out of the water to take a leek,and tripped on a rock and fell forward. Being a steep dropoff right next to shore he could not reach the bottom with his hand. As a last resort he started to dog paddle,and managed to get enough air (and a bit of water)in his lungs to keep going.He managed to make it to shore. I now fish with a floater vest or a floater collar,and so does my brother, we enjoy our fishing trips together and especially float tubing. It’s a very exciting sport and I hope you do not give it up. BTW he is my twin brother,and I don’t want to lose him. Just sharing my experience with everybody and maybe it hits home to some people. Tight lines,Frank

Response:

On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube over turned in a small pond near Prineville, Oregon. I don’t know what made the tube flip – but I know I will never use one again. Bill left two small boys – Sam, 2 and Jake, 7. Bill was an avid fly fisherman, moving to Prineville to teach science and be closer to the rivers he loved to fish. His last project, about two weeks ago, was to take his class out and they planted 800 trees bordering a stream that had suffered from cattle grazing…..

Sheesh: you write a post like that to a group consisting of thousands of lunatics who by definition sit around staring at their $2000 and up computertoys and fairly regularly drop $300-$500 on flyrods, $100-$400 on reels, take fly-in trips around the world, etc., etc., and you don’t tell us if the boys’ mother and you and whatever other family is involved could use a hand with the expenses of raising the boys and whether a trust fund has been set up for them and the address….? Maybe you/they don’t need a hand (i.e. is there a lawsuit pending against the tube manufacturer?) but if they do why don’t you let us know? Geez, I mean I might have to put off buying that new reel I want for a whole month or so but I think I could swing it….

Response:

: On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube : over turned in a small pond near Prineville, Oregon. I don’t know what : made the tube flip – but I know I will never use one again. Bill left : two small boys – Sam, 2 and Jake, 7. Bill was an avid fly fisherman, : moving to Prineville to teach science and be closer to the rivers he : loved to fish. His last project, about two weeks ago, was to take his : class out and they planted 800 trees bordering a stream that had suffered : from cattle grazing. I hope the stream recovers… : If you have any information on why or how tubes can flip – please drop : me a note. Sorry to hear of your loss. Can the tubes be flipped while leaning backwards with one arm extended to the rear and feet out in front of you? Suggestion for discussion: When diving, I wear a large dull knife strapped to my leg. This is mostly to impress the tourons. However, after having managed to get all tangled up in a monoline fishing net once, there is now a small, double-edged, very sharp, serrated (sp?) edged knife fastened to my shoulder strap. Next time I’ll leave all that equipment down there with a few quick strokes of that knife when the release buckles are all tied up. Maybe it is just me, but after a couple of emergency situations, you go prepared. When upside down in a tube, can an escape be managed with a slash to the tube and a couple cuts on shoulder straps? I know, like you don’t have enough junk hanging on your vest already. Also, there are ankle weights for divers that don’t like diving upside down. I assume tubers have these also to help paddle around? Bill

Response:

On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died…

Rich: My sincerest condolences to you and your family… very sorry to hear this tragic news.

Response:

As a last resort he started to dog paddle,and managed to get enough air (and a bit of water)in his lungs to keep going.He managed to make it to shore.

I always assumed that if my tube turned over, I would use the Kayakers’ last restort: a wet exit. I.e., calmly reach down (or is it up?), pull my feet out, and exit the tube. Anyone see a problem with this assumption? Wet exits are the one and only facet of kayaking I’m proficient at, having had lots of practice while trying to learn to roll. — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

I always assumed that if my tube turned over, I would use the Kayakers’ last restort: a wet exit. I.e., calmly reach down (or is it up?), pull my feet out, and exit the tube. Anyone see a problem with this assumption? Wet exits are the one and only facet of kayaking I’m proficient at, having had lots of practice while trying to learn to roll.

The panic factor and 35 degree water might be a problem with this assumption. Keeping your wits about you would be difficult. I assume you practiced rolling your kayak under somewhat controlled conditions. I never practiced flipping my tube. Does a PFD really help if you are flipped over. Will it keep your head up when the tube is flipped over and your legs are pointed to the sky, or will it keep you from flipping in the first place?. Just curious if anyone has experienced a flip while wearing a life jacket. John

Response:

: I have spent many an hour in a float tube ,and I must tell you : that I am amazed that anyone has had one flip over on them????? It _CAN_ be done!! I have not managed to do so yet, but there have been times where I leaned way over the side of tube to reach for a snagged line. I would have the opposite side of the tube lift out of the water and start to roll. I am only about 175#, but I used to flip truck tire tubes in the pool when I was a kid by leaning on one side of them. The trick is to stay reasonably centered and keep your butt in the water. Even when I get a big wake from a boat, I easily stay upright and ride it out. Wheee! Jon Porter

Response:

: I always assumed that if my tube turned over, I would use the Kayakers’ : last restort: a wet exit. I.e., calmly reach down (or is it up?), : pull my feet out, and exit the tube. Anyone see a problem with this : assumption? You should be able to _drop_ out of a tube. I can get into my Caddis with the seat strap buckled while wearing fins. I figure that getting out (even upside down) should not be much harder. The trick is to keep your wits about you when the thing flips! Jon Porter

Response:

I have spent many an hour in a float tube ,and I must tell you that I am amazed that anyone has had one flip over on them?????

Response:

First for safety I would say we need to wear PFD’s of some type. Second we should never be without a good readily available knife. Third it isn’t a bad Idea to try to flip one with a friend present and try a water exit. Not panicing is probably the key. Neoprene waders are very bouyant and can hinder a water exit plus they are cumbersome.

Response:

If you have any information on why or how tubes can flip – please drop me a note.

I find that the lower I set my self in the tube the better control I have over it This may take away some of my casting ability but I feel safer. Condolences on your loss

Response:

On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube over turned in a small pond near Prineville, Oregon. I don’t know what made the tube flip – but I know I will never use one again. Bill left two small boys – Sam, 2 and Jake, 7. Bill was an avid fly fisherman, moving to Prineville to teach science and be closer to the rivers he loved to fish. His last project, about two weeks ago, was to take his class out and they planted 800 trees bordering a stream that had suffered from cattle grazing…..

First of all, let me say I’m very sorry for your loss. This should be a heads-up for float-tubers and anyone thinking about buying one. A friend of mine flipped his in the Green River and fortunately was able to right himself in shallow water while I watched helplessly from fifty yards away. He is 6′2" and 250 lbs and was in a Browning tube which is way too small and carries you way too high, especially if you are his size. He will never use that tube again. In the same year a boy drowned in that river when his tube flipped. Tubing in rivers is especially dangerous because the current can make it even more difficult than it already is to free yourself from a flipped tube, not to mention hazards like rocks. If you flip, don’t try to right yourself. Try to remain calm and just swim out. For what it’s worth, I have a Caddis tube. It is about the largest diameter tube I have ever seen and I sit quite low in it. I am 6′ and 170 lbs. and I don’t think I could flip it if I tried unless I was standing in very shallow water. I also always wear a lifevest. -alan

Response:

On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube over turned in a small pond near Prineville, Oregon. I don’t know what made the tube flip – but I know I will never use one again. Bill left two small boys – Sam, 2 and Jake, 7. Bill was an avid fly fisherman, moving to Prineville to teach science and be closer to the rivers he loved to fish. His last project, about two weeks ago, was to take his class out and they planted 800 trees bordering a stream that had suffered from cattle grazing. I hope the stream recovers… If you have any information on why or how tubes can flip – please drop me a note.

Tragic. Deepest, deepest condolences. You did not mention the use of a life jacket. Was your brother wearing one ? TW

Response:

On March 29, 1996 my younger brother Bill died when his float tube over turned in a small pond near Prineville, Oregon.

(Snip) Sheesh: you write a post like that to a group consisting of thousands of

lunatics who by definition sit around staring at their $2000 and up computertoys and fairly regularly drop $300-$500 on flyrods, $100-$400 on reels, take fly-in trips around the world, etc., etc., and you don’t tell us if the boys’ mother and you and whatever other family is involved could use a hand with the expenses of raising the boys and whether a trust fund has been set up for them and the address….? Maybe you/they don’t need a hand (i.e. if there a lawsuit pending against the tube manufacturer?) but if they do why don’t you let us know? Geez, I mean I might have to put off buying that new reel I want for a whole month or so but I think I could swing it….

Well, . very crass, but I think your heart is in the right place. I think its a super idea. If, after they recover some from the shock of their loss, the family would accept some help from others who shared your brothers passion, I for one would be very willing to help.

Response:

Question:

The show is scheduled for September 11-14. In years past, Organizers, Etc. (800 283-2754) have helped attendees with travel and lodging reservations. You might give them a call for details.

Response:

Hello Simon: Contact the staff of the International Fly Tackle Dealer Show at: PO Box 370 Camden, ME 04843 Clay

Response:

I am very keen to attend the Denver Fly Fishing Trade Show in September. Could someone please furnish me with details.

The organization behind the promotion of this show is Fly Rod & Reel Magazine. Their address is: Fly Rod & Reel PO Box 370 Camden, Maine 04843 You can also send E-Mail from their home page at: http://flyfishers.com/fly-rod-reel.html Regards, Trent P Roberson Rx F Fish "For Your Good Health, Fly Fish" URL=http://www.xnet.com/~rxffish

Response:

I am very keen to attend the Denver Fly Fishing Trade Show in September. Could someone please furnish me with details.

You can write Fly Tackle Dealer Magazine at Box 370 Camden, Maine 04843. You can probably e-mail Fly Rod and Reel (same group) through their web site (sorry, don’t know the Domain Name). -Ralph Ralph Cutter, California School of Flyfishing. http://www.flyline.com

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Question:

I just got my orvis catalog in the mail today..ah, it’s January but spring is already in the air…So, my fellow fly fishermen, what are we buying Orvis braided leader system..it seems like it would be great. I want to pick it up, but first i’d like to know if anyone knows how good it is..Thanks.. Frankie… NYC fly-fisherman..just a 2 hour drive to the Beaverkill..

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The advertisement for Jeep that starts… "A Tradition Runs Through It…." About made me lose chow… Tim Walker

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The advertisement for Jeep that starts… "A Tradition Runs Through It…." About made me lose chow…

I hope the Royal Coachman does not make you nauseous; it was invented by Mary Orvis Marbury. Unless I am mistaken, you must carry your line coiled up in your hand. The thought of using a modern fly reel, which traces its lineage back to the CFO reel developed by Charles F. Orvis, is repugnant. On the other hand, it may be the Jeep/Orvis advertising executives who make you sick. The thought that anyone would exploit fly fishing’s traditions, your heritage, for commercial gain could upset you. That is why I only fish with tackle donated to me by Trappist monks. They have to give up both fishing and sex. Shudder! Unfortunately, fewer and fewer folks are willing to make that double sacrifice so I am running low on tackle. I am therefore looking forward to drooling over my Orvis catalogue. I imperil my immortal soul by dealing with them (the toll free #, 1-800-666-6666, is scary) but what the heck. Some of it is nice stuff. — Keep your stick on the ice.

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The advertisement for Jeep that starts… "A Tradition Runs Through It…." snip Yeah, Tim, but if you keep reading, it only gets worse: "…The Orvis name informs (sic) the spirit of every fly fisherman…in America" WHAT does that mean??!!

Inform (vt) does not just mean to impart knowledge, it also means 1) obs to give material form or to arrange 2)to give character or essence; hence to be characteristic of 3)to train or discipline 4)to guide or direct. I don’t know why Webster says that 1 is obsolete; Aristotelian and Thomistic metaphysicians are always prattling on about formal causes informing material causes. So how do you like that? Madison avenue says that Orvis gives you character, disciplines you, and/or guides you. And I thought that they just had some nice stuff for sale. If it were not for those ads I might have gone to my grave without recogning my essential Orvisness. — Keep your stick on the ice.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The advertisement for Jeep that starts… "A Tradition Runs Through It…." snip Yeah, Tim, but if you keep reading, it only gets worse: "…The Orvis name informs (sic) the spirit of every fly fisherman…in America" WHAT does that mean??!! Inform (vt) does not just mean to impart knowledge, it also means 1) obs to give material form or to arrange 2)to give character or essence; hence to be characteristic of 3)to train or discipline 4)to guide or direct. I don’t know why Webster says that 1 is obsolete; Aristotelian and Thomistic metaphysicians are always prattling on about formal causes informing material causes.

Thanks for the vocabulary lesson! Now that I know what they’re talking about, somehow I don’t feel much better. However, I agree with the people who have posted to the effect that this drivel is an ad, after all; Orvis is just using the media to try to turn a buck, and I don’t sweat them that. My beef is with the media…do they really think we are a bunch of sheep? Anyhow, seeing the ad did not stop me from placing an order from the same catalog. Boycotting is a bit extreme, I think. Paul DiConza NY Capital District Angler

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: The advertisement for Jeep that starts… : "A Tradition Runs Through It…." : About made me lose chow… : On the other hand, it may be the Jeep/Orvis advertising executives who : make you sick. The thought that anyone would exploit fly fishing’s Norman Maclean must be rolling in his grave. His son and his daughter must not have ever read the book, or they missed the point. Ol’ Norm was very protective that his story was personal and he never wanted to exploit it for commercial gains. Now he’s dead and his family is raping his memories. If I ever see an orvis edition jeep at my fishing hole, I think I’ll let the air out of it’s tires for Norm…I think he’d approve. Tim Walker

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Who would buy an Orvis Cherokee…maybe the same tweedy types that keep Orvis in business and FF a bad name. Went way too far this time pa.

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Tim Walker suggests that he would let the air out of the tires of any Orvis Jeep parked near his fishing spot and that Norman McLean would approve. Tim – If I ever see anyone letting the air out of any fisherman’s vehicle (of whatever kind), I’ll do my best to see if I can get the person arrested. Making such a suggestion, even as hyperbole, reflects poor judgment (among other things). Dallas, TX Ennis, MT

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Merry Christmas to all of you in rec.outdoors.fishing.fly… :-) (02)

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