Question:

Seriously, what about its environmental impact.  I just switched to tin splitshots and no longer wrap my flies with lead.  I do eat 25% of the fish I catch and like to hunt water fowl. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess I’m going to have to call that last fisherman I had this fall and ask him what brand of flouro he was using as there was a HUGE difference in visibility of the flouro vs mono. The flouro was extremely visible even through 18" to 24" of river water. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com Nearly all of the above reasons would have been true of the first generation of Fluorocarbon that came on the market. I suggest you try some of the newer stuff, it is much better and in many cases is superior on many levels to mono. The "selling point" of fluorocarbon (FC) is that’s it’s less visible underwater than because its index of refraction is closer to that of water than is the index of refraction of mono. I assume we’re all agreed on that. (It’s definitely not the price Some time ago I looked up the indices of refraction of "typical" FC and mono and compared them to that of fresh water. Sure enough, the FC was closer, but it wasn’t THAT MUCH closer — maybe halfway. I didn’t save the numbers and I don’t feel like looking them up at the moment. If it had been SPOT ON, I would have been impressed, but it wasn’t. The physics and neurophysics of what makes something more or less "visible" are complex. I was still skeptical about the claim. Then I took a length of FC and a length of mono (same diameters), put them into a glass of water, and looked at them. They looked about the same. After that, I was even more skeptical, and I remain so. We’ve heard anecdotal stories about how no one was catching fish, then someone switched to FC and started catching, and then everyone else switched and everyone started catching like crazy. I don’t put any credence at all on those stories. The same damn thing might happen for any number of other reasons.

Response:

  Just as a footnote, my experience was with dries, not nymphing. Flouro isn’t my choice for dries but I do like it for nymphing. Overall, It’s not my choice for leader material because I don’t like making major changes to my leader just to switch between a dry and a nymph. However, in a situation like we had at the San Juan where there wasn’t much dry action, I will use it. I also like it on the dropper on a dry/dropper rig. Willi

Response:

  Al Hammel mentioned fluorocarbon in a negative way. I agree. Don’t use   fluorocarbon for dry flies. It’s too stiff. I don’t use it for nymphing   either, because I think the putative benefits are nonexistant, or at   least are so miniscule that they don’t justify the expense and bother. I used some of the second generation stuff on the Juan this year and it’s very strong, tough stuff. I’m as cheap as they come and I’m willing to pay the price.

The LAST thing you need, Willi especially on the San Juan, is fluorocarbon. In fact, in your case I think it’s unethical.

Response:

I just recevied the three forks 3wt rod I ordered, and I went to try it out. It was much easier to cast than my 20 dollar wal*mart rod. It seems to have a pretty slow action, which is nice after casting the broomstick like shakespear. I was wondering, what size tippet to use for 14-18 size dry flies? Thanks, ALex

Way cool Alex, congrats on getting your KPOS…I know you will grow to love it, as I do…collect the whole set and be confident in the knowledge that you have saved the job of some little Korean cutie. Frank Sr. previous advice on tippet size noted

Response:

Al Hammel mentioned fluorocarbon in a negative way. I agree. Don’t use fluorocarbon for dry flies. It’s too stiff. It sinks, too.

The sinking doesn’t bother me much. In fact, it’s a positive, because I believe a tippet under the surface is less visible than one floating in the surface tension, especially in calm water and sunny conditions. I don’t think FC sinks readily enough to pull under the surface a well floating fly, although it may be a factor with waterlogged or otherwise marginal flies. My objection is just the stiffness, which complicates a drag-free drift.

Response:

I have used the Umpqua super fluoro and find it a lot softer than deceiver for higher knot strength. I like it and may, repeat, may change completely to it before the end of the season. (Consumer warning on above advice: yes I am commercially connected with Umpqua.) Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Al Hammel mentioned fluorocarbon in a negative way. I agree. Don’t use fluorocarbon for dry flies. It’s too stiff. It sinks, too.

Response:

Jon Cook writes: Al Hammel mentioned fluorocarbon in a negative way. I agree. Don’t use fluorocarbon for dry flies. It’s too stiff. It sinks, too.

Damn straight!  Makes it wonderful for nymphing.  <g   If you grease it to within ten inches of the fly, that portion will float, but the portion untreated will sink just below the surface, but not enough to sink the fly.  I don’t like its stiffness, however, for dries, but it is adequate when I am too lazy to switch. Dave

Response:

I have used the Umpqua super fluoro and find it a lot softer than deceiver for higher knot strength. I like it and may, repeat, may change completely to it before the end of the season. (Consumer warning on above advice: yes I am commercially connected with Umpqua.)

Has anyone here checked as to whether or not you can actually see the flouro leader/tippet material when it’s underwater? I’ve had a few instances this season where a fisherman shows up with the new fluoro and the fish just don’t seem to want to eat his bug. I change him over to the old stuff (I use Umpqua but I’m not commercially connected to them) and, bammo, lots more hits with the same fly and all. I’ve held a rolled up fluoro leader next to a rolled up regular leader under water. I can see the fluoro plain as day. Couldn’t hardly see the other stuff. I’m trying to recall what brands were the suspect material but for the life of me, I can’t recall. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

Brian Nelson writes: Has anyone here checked as to whether or not you can actually see the flouro leader/tippet material when it’s underwater?

Yes, you can see it.  Quite well, aamof.  But, my experience with Orvis FC and Orvis Superstrength is just the opposite of what you note.  Went from 5x Superstrength to 5x FC and caught fish immediately.  I like it for nymphing because it holds up better to abrasion from rocks.  YMMV, of course.  <g Dave

Response:

Just as a footnote, my experience was with dries, not nymphing. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Brian Nelson writes: Has anyone here checked as to whether or not you can actually see the flouro leader/tippet material when it’s underwater? Yes, you can see it.  Quite well, aamof.  But, my experience with Orvis FC and Orvis Superstrength is just the opposite of what you note.  Went from 5x Superstrength to 5x FC and caught fish immediately.  I like it for nymphing because it holds up better to abrasion from rocks.  YMMV, of course.  <g Dave

Response:

"Brian D. Nelson" Has anyone here checked as to whether or not you can actually see the flouro leader/tippet material when it’s underwater? I’ve had a few instances this season where a fisherman shows up with the new fluoro and the fish just don’t seem to want to eat his bug. I change him over to the old stuff (I use Umpqua but I’m not commercially connected to them) and, bammo, lots more hits with the same fly and all. I’ve held a rolled up fluoro leader next to a rolled up regular leader under water. I can see the fluoro plain as day. Couldn’t hardly see the other stuff. I’m trying to recall what brands were the suspect material but for the life of me, I can’t recall.

I haven’t had any real problems at all brian, but one thing I find interesting when fishing dries on fluoro is that it seems to have more trouble breaking the surface tension. When fishing on stillwaters I have all manner of problems getting it to sink at all. Of course, once it does break though it sinks faster than mono but getting it to break through can be a heck of a problem.. any thoughts. Clark

Response:

Just as a footnote, my experience was with dries, not nymphing. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Could it be floating more as I mentioned above? I believe the "imprint" in the surface film is the biggest problem with it on smoother waters. Clark

Response:

Just as a footnote, my experience was with dries, not nymphing. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com Could it be floating more as I mentioned above? I believe the "imprint" in the surface film is the biggest problem with it on smoother waters.

Could be. All I know is it was very easily seen while under water whereas the mono basically disappeared and it did make a big difference (at least to me it did) in the number of fish that came up to eat the bug. I’ll have to do a little ’speriment the next time I have some available. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

The sinking doesn’t bother me much. In fact, it’s a positive, because I believe a tippet under the surface is less visible than one floating in the surface tension, especially in calm water and sunny conditions. I don’t think FC sinks readily enough to pull under the surface a well floating fly, although it may be a factor with waterlogged or otherwise marginal flies. My objection is just the stiffness, which complicates a drag-free drift.

I’ve used it a good bit and the sinking doesn’t seem to be a problem (I agree with RW’s comment about it), but FC does appear to break more easily at the knot. Maybe that’s a function of its stiffness, but I believe FC’s advantage in visibility is outweighed by its stiffness, relative fragility at the knot, and expense. Bob

Response:

Yes, you can see it.  Quite well, aamof.  But, my experience with Orvis FC and Orvis Superstrength is just the opposite of what you note.  Went from 5x Superstrength to 5x FC and caught fish immediately.  I like it for nymphing because it holds up better to abrasion from rocks.

Funny, last year I took along the Orvis FC to the Salmon R, & it seemed to suffer more abrasion than plain mono.   So much so, I almost abandoned fluorocarbon for fear that all the surface abrasion would negate the refractive advantages.   (Then again this was 2x stuff, so it was a lot more visible to begin with.) Joe F.

Response:

I just recevied the three forks 3wt rod I ordered, and I went to try it out. It was much easier to cast than my 20 dollar wal*mart rod. It seems to have a pretty slow action, which is nice after casting the broomstick like shakespear. I was wondering, what size tippet to use for 14-18 size dry flies?

After buying a new rod, that is exactly what I wonder too. Depends on how bushy the flies are and other conditions.  Experiment.  Use a tippet that will cast the fly where you want it, but not stiff enough to lay out straight.  Start with, say, 5x and see if it curls up nicely for you.

Response:

Al Hammel mentioned fluorocarbon in a negative way. I agree. Don’t use fluorocarbon for dry flies. It’s too stiff.

reasons not to use flourocarbon: 1) too stiff for many purposes (harder to make a drag free float) 2) more expensive 3) hardness makes good knots elusive: IE the line doesn’t break, but    knots often unravel 4) the stiffness of the line can cause hellatious tangles.    …accidentally bounce the leader off a branch and you often    reel back a monstrous spider web. 5) environmental pollution:    nylon absorbs water and breaks down with UV exposure.    nylon lasts a long time, but flourocarbon lasts (by comparison) forever.

Response:

"while_1" reasons not to use flourocarbon: 1) too stiff for many purposes (harder to make a drag free float) 2) more expensive 3) hardness makes good knots elusive: IE the line doesn’t break, but    knots often unravel 4) the stiffness of the line can cause hellatious tangles.    …accidentally bounce the leader off a branch and you often    reel back a monstrous spider web. 5) environmental pollution:    nylon absorbs water and breaks down with UV exposure.    nylon lasts a long time, but flourocarbon lasts (by comparison)

forever. Nearly all of the above reasons would have been true of the first generation of Fluorocarbon that came on the market. I suggest you try some of the newer stuff, it is much better and in many cases is superior on many levels to mono. 1) The new generation stuff is more supple than many equivalent monos. 2) Yep it is, but as you don’t have to refresh your stocks each season it can be more value for money for many. 3) This has been pretty much negated. 4) The stiffness has gone. 5) Mono isn’t exactly environmentally friendly either. The onus is on the angler to ensure adequate cleanup of excess pieces. In a reality sense the length of time flouro stays on snag isn’t all that different to mono. Clark Clark

Response:

Nearly all of the above reasons would have been true of the first generation of Fluorocarbon that came on the market. I suggest you try some of the newer stuff, it is much better and in many cases is superior on many levels to mono.

The "selling point" of fluorocarbon (FC) is that’s it’s less visible underwater than because its index of refraction is closer to that of water than is the index of refraction of mono. I assume we’re all agreed on that. (It’s definitely not the price Some time ago I looked up the indices of refraction of "typical" FC and mono and compared them to that of fresh water. Sure enough, the FC was closer, but it wasn’t THAT MUCH closer — maybe halfway. I didn’t save the numbers and I don’t feel like looking them up at the moment. If it had been SPOT ON, I would have been impressed, but it wasn’t. The physics and neurophysics of what makes something more or less "visible" are complex. I was still skeptical about the claim. Then I took a length of FC and a length of mono (same diameters), put them into a glass of water, and looked at them. They looked about the same. After that, I was even more skeptical, and I remain so. We’ve heard anecdotal stories about how no one was catching fish, then someone switched to FC and started catching, and then everyone else switched and everyone started catching like crazy. I don’t put any credence at all on those stories. The same damn thing might happen for any number of other reasons.

Response:

"rw" < – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The "selling point" of fluorocarbon (FC) is that’s it’s less visible underwater than because its index of refraction is closer to that of water than is the index of refraction of mono. I assume we’re all agreed on that. (It’s definitely not the price Some time ago I looked up the indices of refraction of "typical" FC and mono and compared them to that of fresh water. Sure enough, the FC was closer, but it wasn’t THAT MUCH closer — maybe halfway. I didn’t save the numbers and I don’t feel like looking them up at the moment. If it had been SPOT ON, I would have been impressed, but it wasn’t. The physics and neurophysics of what makes something more or less "visible" are complex. I was still skeptical about the claim. Then I took a length of FC and a length of mono (same diameters), put them into a glass of water, and looked at them. They looked about the same. After that, I was even more skeptical, and I remain so. We’ve heard anecdotal stories about how no one was catching fish, then someone switched to FC and started catching, and then everyone else switched and everyone started catching like crazy. I don’t put any credence at all on those stories. The same damn thing might happen for any number of other reasons.

I would agree to some degree with your conclusions. I don’t think the differences are THAT huge. But I think there are differences and times will arise where one will give you an advantage over the other. I don’t believe either material is perfect in  certain circumstances one will out perform the other. Having said that. My preliminary results using the new Super-Flouro is pretty encouraging. I’m not using it totally exclusively, but at the moment that’s only because I haven’t to been able to get it in all the sizes I want. I think I will but that doesn’t mean I wont find situations where I wont find a situation where I’ll want to use mono anymore either. Clark

Response:

I guess I’m going to have to call that last fisherman I had this fall and ask him what brand of flouro he was using as there was a HUGE difference in visibility of the flouro vs mono. The flouro was extremely visible even through 18" to 24" of river water. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nearly all of the above reasons would have been true of the first generation of Fluorocarbon that came on the market. I suggest you try some of the newer stuff, it is much better and in many cases is superior on many levels to mono. The "selling point" of fluorocarbon (FC) is that’s it’s less visible underwater than because its index of refraction is closer to that of water than is the index of refraction of mono. I assume we’re all agreed on that. (It’s definitely not the price Some time ago I looked up the indices of refraction of "typical" FC and mono and compared them to that of fresh water. Sure enough, the FC was closer, but it wasn’t THAT MUCH closer — maybe halfway. I didn’t save the numbers and I don’t feel like looking them up at the moment. If it had been SPOT ON, I would have been impressed, but it wasn’t. The physics and neurophysics of what makes something more or less "visible" are complex. I was still skeptical about the claim. Then I took a length of FC and a length of mono (same diameters), put them into a glass of water, and looked at them. They looked about the same. After that, I was even more skeptical, and I remain so. We’ve heard anecdotal stories about how no one was catching fish, then someone switched to FC and started catching, and then everyone else switched and everyone started catching like crazy. I don’t put any credence at all on those stories. The same damn thing might happen for any number of other reasons.

Response:

  Al Hammel mentioned fluorocarbon in a negative way. I agree. Don’t use   fluorocarbon for dry flies. It’s too stiff. I don’t use it for nymphing   either, because I think the putative benefits are nonexistant, or at   least are so miniscule that they don’t justify the expense and bother. I used some of the second generation stuff on the Juan this year and it’s very strong, tough stuff. I’m as cheap as they come and I’m willing to pay the price. Willi

Response:

I just recevied the three forks 3wt rod I ordered, and I went to try it out. It was much easier to cast than my 20 dollar wal*mart rod. It seems to have a pretty slow action, which is nice after casting the broomstick like shakespear. I was wondering, what size tippet to use for 14-18 size dry flies? Thanks, ALex

Response:

4x to 5x works well.  I am leary of flourocarbon.  The stuff reminds me of the gas that breaks down the ozone in solid form.  Presentation is everything.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just recevied the three forks 3wt rod I ordered, and I went to try it out. It was much easier to cast than my 20 dollar wal*mart rod. It seems to have a pretty slow action, which is nice after casting the broomstick like shakespear. I was wondering, what size tippet to use for 14-18 size dry flies? Thanks, ALex

Response:

I just recevied the three forks 3wt rod I ordered, and I went to try it out. It was much easier to cast than my 20 dollar wal*mart rod. It seems to have a pretty slow action, which is nice after casting the broomstick like shakespear. I was wondering, what size tippet to use for 14-18 size dry flies?

5x normally. If the conditions are really difficult (very clear, smooth water, bright sunlight, picky fish) then 6x might be better. Al Hammel mentioned fluorocarbon in a negative way. I agree. Don’t use fluorocarbon for dry flies. It’s too stiff. I don’t use it for nymphing either, because I think the putative benefits are nonexistant, or at least are so miniscule that they don’t justify the expense and bother.

Response:

Question:

Hi Scott, Considering that it would be ~$15,000 new, I don’t think you can go too wrong at the price. It might be a "gas hog"? — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello fellow boaters, I just sold my little old 12 footer with a 9.9 Johnson in favor of something a little bigger, and here is a boat I am interested in: 1979 Crestliner, aluminum -open bow, nice carpeted wood flooring (recently re-done) -has a sterring console -livewell -auto bilge pump -looks to be in good shape, not beat up -1987 85hp Force outboard w/jet -good trailer -comes with 3 portable ga tanks -a couple of pedestal seats I am going for a test ride this weekend and will do a compression test as well. this boat is set up well for fishing, i like the storage space and boat layout. i also like the jet. Before anyone goes on about jets, I am more than familiar with the pros and cons, and I have to have a jet due to the places I go.  The owner said the boat will go about 32mph with a decent load – this is more than fine for me.  as long as it gets up on plane and goes ( i will not be pulling skiers or anything… just fishing). the owner is asking $2750 – does this seems fair (considering he probably overpriced it a little bit as we all do when selling something)? Engine runs well, and he has seemed to do good maintenance on the boat. If I decide to get this boat I will add a bow-mount trolling motor (probably a minn kota 50# thrust) for fishing, a fish finder, and maybe an extra pedestal seat. let me know what you guys think.  oh – one other question: i am more familiar with inboard jets and big jet boats than outboad jets: do outboard jet units still have a seperate impeller to cool the engine (like it would with a prop), or do they just work off the bowl pressure to get their water feed?  Just curious Thanks! scott

Response:

Hello fellow boaters, I just sold my little old 12 footer with a 9.9 Johnson in favor of something a little bigger, and here is a boat I am interested in: 1979 Crestliner, aluminum -open bow, nice carpeted wood flooring (recently re-done) -has a sterring console -livewell -auto bilge pump -looks to be in good shape, not beat up -1987 85hp Force outboard w/jet -good trailer -comes with 3 portable ga tanks -a couple of pedestal seats I am going for a test ride this weekend and will do a compression test as well. this boat is set up well for fishing, i like the storage space and boat layout. i also like the jet. Before anyone goes on about jets, I am more than familiar with the pros and cons, and I have to have a jet due to the places I go.  The owner said the boat will go about 32mph with a decent load – this is more than fine for me.  as long as it gets up on plane and goes ( i will not be pulling skiers or anything… just fishing). the owner is asking $2750 – does this seems fair (considering he probably overpriced it a little bit as we all do when selling something)? Engine runs well, and he has seemed to do good maintenance on the boat. If I decide to get this boat I will add a bow-mount trolling motor (probably a minn kota 50# thrust) for fishing, a fish finder, and maybe an extra pedestal seat. let me know what you guys think.  oh – one other question: i am more familiar with inboard jets and big jet boats than outboad jets: do outboard jet units still have a seperate impeller to cool the engine (like it would with a prop), or do they just work off the bowl pressure to get their water feed?  Just curious Thanks! scott

Response:

Nada doesn’t support a 1979 boat, and I don’t know which model it is. By the way, the boat is a 16′. -scott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Try: www.nada.com # Hello fellow boaters, # # I just sold my little old 12 footer with a 9.9 Johnson in favor of # something a little bigger, and here is a boat I am interested in: # # 1979 Crestliner, aluminum # -open bow, nice carpeted wood flooring (recently re-done) # -has a sterring console # -livewell # -auto bilge pump # -looks to be in good shape, not beat up # -1987 85hp Force outboard w/jet # -good trailer # -comes with 3 portable ga tanks # -a couple of pedestal seats # # I am going for a test ride this weekend and will do a compression test # as well. this boat is set up well for fishing, i like the storage space # and boat layout. i also like the jet. # # Before anyone goes on about jets, I am more than familiar with the pros # and cons, and I have to have a jet due to the places I go.  The owner # said the boat will go about 32mph with a decent load – this is more than # fine for me.  as long as it gets up on plane and goes ( i will not be # pulling skiers or anything… just fishing). # # the owner is asking $2750 – does this seems fair (considering he # probably overpriced it a little bit as we all do when selling # something)? Engine runs well, and he has seemed to do good maintenance # on the boat. # # If I decide to get this boat I will add a bow-mount trolling motor # (probably a minn kota 50# thrust) for fishing, a fish finder, and maybe # an extra pedestal seat. # # let me know what you guys think.  oh – one other question: i am more # familiar with inboard jets and big jet boats than outboad jets: do # outboard jet units still have a seperate impeller to cool the engine # (like it would with a prop), or do they just work off the bowl pressure # to get their water feed?  Just curious # # Thanks! # # scott #

Response:

Thanks Jim. I have done more reseach, and I am going for a test drive today and possibly to buy it if the compression checks out on all 3 cylinders and if I don’t see any red flags. -scott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As a previous poster suggested NADA, I say use NADA if you’re going to buy, to help you negotiate.  I don’t know which ass NADA pulls its numbers  from, but according to NADA, I got ripped off buying a boat, motor and trailer for $500.   The boat  you’re looking at, stay away from.  Forget the deal.  Just give me than name and number for the person selling this setup at this price!  I’ll handle it from here.  :^)   Seriously tho, it sounds like a GREAT deal.  If you would be happy with it at that price, then that’s what really matters!  From what you say, I believe *I* would be! -Jim

Response:

As a previous poster suggested NADA, I say use NADA if you’re going to buy, to help you negotiate.  I don’t know which ass NADA pulls its numbers  from, but according to NADA, I got ripped off buying a boat, motor and trailer for $500.   The boat  you’re looking at, stay away from.  Forget the deal.  Just give me than name and number for the person selling this setup at this price!  I’ll handle it from here.  :^)   Seriously tho, it sounds like a GREAT deal.  If you would be happy with it at that price, then that’s what really matters!  From what you say, I believe *I* would be! -Jim

Response:

Question:

Trolling?  No, I will leave that to you. I happen to have a lifetime of experience with "Gothic Egos". Who cares?  Well, we know who doesn’t care, right Hantz? George Gehrke "no fish is as large as a gothic ego"

Response:

Kiss Catch & Release good bye

Response:

Kiss Catch & Release good bye

Maybe yes, maybe no. Might keep some to eat, might catch so many that there’s no room for them. Either way, who cares? There’s plenty of fish in the sea. I hardly think C&K-ing some sea trout is gonna damage the ecosystem. But what’s it to you, anyway? Trolling? riverman

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why don’t you keep your opinions to yourself.  And stay off off this newsgroup. Please.  If I have to say it again, I won’t be this nice, jerk. He is a mass murderer.  Murder is murder. Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm He’s a piece of trash. The death penality is too easy for him. — Harry Krause This is still a dangerous world. It’s a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mential losses. -GW Bush

A McVeigh fan, eh? — Harry Krause And if he continues that, I’m going to tell the nation what I think about him as a human being and a person. -GW Bush

Response:

Take this to another group.  Mcviegh doesn’t flyfish. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He is a mass murderer.  Murder is murder. Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

Response:

So we got what…20 or so replies on this thread all cross posted… Fists now ready to fly… Figure out what a *TROLL* is yet Knuckleheads??? "Comments: This message did not originate from the Sender address above.  It was remailed automatically by anonymizing remailer software.  Please report problems or inappropriate use to the

Response:

Why don’t you keep your opinions to yourself.  And stay off off this newsgroup. Please.  If I have to say it again, I won’t be this nice, jerk. He’s a piece of trash. The death penality is too easy for him. A McVeigh fan, eh?

Nah. He’s got this weird, kinky thing going with GI Joe…

Response:

On May 16th he won’t be doing much except gasping and gurgling……So no he doesn’t fly fish, nor does he collect gijoes, or travel, or figure blowflies……. That will teach him to murder 19 little kids and 148 adults!

Take this to another group.  Mcviegh doesn’t flyfish.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He is a mass murderer.  Murder is murder. Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

Response:

He was a fruitcake that knew exactly what he was doing, so now lets fry him or transform him in to road kill. Wade Wade, I do like the way you put things, even if there is a power shortage! RichT

Sorry I forgot about the energy shortage, we could reduce the amount of power by say 40% it would take just a little longer but that just collateral damage. Wade

Response:

*NEW URL* http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_justice/Untitled-1.htm

Response:

May the sniveling little coward roast in hell. I’d go to hell myself for a chance to shove a pineapple up his ass sideways.

hmmm…now there’s an image that conjures interest…perhaps one of the western or southern states could add that to its capital punishment options.  ok now mr mcveigh…it’s either the gas chamber, hanging, firing squad, lethal injection, or rw will shove a pineapple up your ass sideways…<g jeff

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Lets have Tim BBQ’d Wade

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if you want to play, you gotta pay! not to mention the intelligence of someone fleeing the scene in a car with out a plate and an unregistered gun under the seat. — jimi g. " It wasn’t a miracle, It was INFANTRY!"  – Omaha beach survivor and MOH recipient, 1998 — Eco. 51st inf. reg. 23inf. div. 9th SS Feldgendarmerie when you want to trade 1/6th or 1/1 scale, first visit the 1/6th scale INF.  at : http://people.mw.mediaone.net/wgreyson/home.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

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He is a mass murderer.  Murder is murder.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

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He is a mass murderer.  Murder is murder. Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

He’s a piece of trash. The death penality is too easy for him. — Harry Krause This is still a dangerous world. It’s a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mential losses. -GW Bush

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Why don’t you keep your opinions to yourself.  And stay off off this newsgroup. Please.  If I have to say it again, I won’t be this nice, jerk. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He is a mass murderer.  Murder is murder. Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm He’s a piece of trash. The death penality is too easy for him. — Harry Krause This is still a dangerous world. It’s a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mential losses. -GW Bush

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Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

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May the sniveling little coward roast in hell. I’d go to hell myself for a chance to shove a pineapple up his ass sideways.

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Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about.

He was a fruitcake that knew exactly what he was doing, so now lets fry him or transform him in to road kill. Wade

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He was a fruitcake that knew exactly what he was doing, so now lets fry him or transform him in to road kill. Wade

Wade, I do like the way you put things, even if there is a power shortage! RichT

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*NEW URL* http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_justice/Untitled-1.htm

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*NEW URL* http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_justice/Untitled-1.htm

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There are ways to protest the wrongdoings of government that don’t involve killing large numbers of innocent people. McViegh is no martyr, just a cowardly mass murderer. Let him die. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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Can you say TROLL?  I KNEW you could. Pat Lubbock, Texas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

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May we all Please just ZOTZ this Usenet Troll; you can talk about this till your hearts are content in the appropriate forums.  Placing this cross-posted off topic BS here is just someone’s self serving attempt to stir shit… Cross-Posted Off Topic Usenet Abuse Path: sn-us!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com! enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsfeed.kpnqwest.at!anon.lcs.mit. edu!nym.alias.net!mail2news-x5!mail2news-x4!mail2news-x3!mail2news-x2!ma il2news Comments: This message did not originate from the Sender address above.  It was remailed automatically by anonymizing remailer software.  Please report problems or inappropriate use to the Newsgroups: alt.comp.periphs.cdr,alt.toys.gi-joe,rec.outdoors.fishing.fly,rec.outdoo rs.rv-travel,rec.sport.skating.ice.figure Lines: 8 Xref: sn-us alt.comp.periphs.cdr:298178 alt.toys.gi-joe:305294 rec.outdoors.fishing.fly:239740 rec.outdoors.rv-travel:270678 rec.sport.skating.ice.figure:330013

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

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Question:

You’re right. Let’s not spend the money that might help rebuild their economy and let’s stay away out of respect for the dead. Jeez. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you guys for real? You’re talking about a hurricane that has killed thousands, and you’re worried it may have messed up your proposed fishing trips. — Colin Brown Also interested in response … would like to go there next year … was

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says… Are you guys for real? You’re talking about a hurricane that has killed thousands, and you’re worried it may have messed up your proposed fishing trips. — Colin Brown

Colin, My initial reaction was similar to yours. After further contemplation, I decided that anyone who goes down there to fish is also going to be spending hard currency in an area that could use some right now. That is why I urge those fishermen (and anyone who can) to contact your local charitable organizations and send money/food/clothing now. They *really* do need it. –Wataugan Walt

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I was there last July fishing at Turneffe flats. We were trying for the Grand Slam. I highly recommend the lodge. I will be seeing the owner of the lodge in two weeks. I. like yourself am concerned about the damage and to the well being of the local guides I fished with and their familys. When I find out I’ll let you know.                                                                 Mark Heskett

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You’re right. Let’s not spend the money that might help rebuild their economy and let’s stay away out of respect for the dead. Jeez.

______ It is just a matter of time that American’s, in our own way, will begin turning tragedy into humor.  Out of chaos, we alway cheer the world up or ourselves because the pain is so great, the suffering inexpressiable, and so it goes.  But today, I called the Red Cross and made a donation to Mexico’s cause.  Its the least we can do for now. I think. THIS would be a good time for the Pope to make a visit just to help Mexico who needs him so, now.  The arms of the Catholic Church should enfold this nation and give comfort and spiritual support. Well . . . it sure would be nice to hear from them about now.

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_____ If the Pope will supply 100,000 loaves of bread I will supply the bone fish for him to feed his flock.

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In ______ It is just a matter of time that American’s, in our own way, will begin turning tragedy into humor.  Out of chaos, we alway cheer the world up or ourselves because the pain is so great, the suffering inexpressiable, and so it goes.  But today, I called the Red Cross and made a donation to Mexico’s cause.  Its the least we can do for now. I think. THIS would be a good time for the Pope to make a visit just to help Mexico who needs him so, now.  The arms of the Catholic Church should enfold this nation and give comfort and spiritual support. Well . . . it sure would be nice to hear from them about now.

bzzzzzttt, bzzzzzztttt, scrsssshhhhhhhh Earth to George… HONDURAS, NICARAGUA, & BELIZE. (and some southeastern parts of Mexico) aside from my sarcasm, many thanks for your contribution. They are in need of assistance. The death toll has climbed to over 10,000 with many thousands still unaccounted for. A MAJOR DISASTER. another aside, i know we have our differing opinions, but if you’re ever up here in god’s country, there is an open invite to you to join me and possibly wayno on a stream a’fishin’ for the brookies. –Wataugan Walt

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Hi: Looking to fish Belize next May, but I’m concerned about the damage that Mitch may have done.  I’ve been searching the net for information to guide my trip decision, but haven’t come up with anything. I normally go to Belize River Lodge, but I have the feeling that they may have been washed away (they are right on the river).  I was also considering Blue Horizon.  Anyone have any idea how things fared at these two places and if Mitch’s rath may have screwed up the waters into next year? Thanks. Adam

Hi Adam, I think they were pretty lucky in Belize. I am not really sure about total damage, but heard that El Pescador did OK. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

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_____ If the Pope will supply 100,000 loaves of bread I will supply the bone fish for him to feed his flock.

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Hi.  I don’t know about the condition of the specific lodges you mentioned, but Belize in general suffered little damage from Mitch (when compared to what’s happening in Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua). The fishing is great right now, especially in southern Belize.  Lots of snook, especially.  You may be able to get info on your lodges from the ambergriscaye hurricane page.  I can’t remember the URL, but if you go to our Website (http://www.kevinmodera.com) and click on "Ambergris Caye" info at the top of the homepage, you’ll be linked to their hurricane site.  They have lots of information from many locations in Belize.  Our site also includes information on conditions in southern Belize. Generally, we expect the Placencia area to be pretty much back to "normal" (whatever that means for Placencia), in another week or so. BTW, please, anybody that has the time, money or inclination, Central America needs help desperately.  A group of our local guides donated their time and money to buy and deliver food to Honduras a couple of days ago. They just got back last night and could not believe how horrible it really is in northern Honduras.  It’s still so wet that they were unable to light fires to cook the beans and rice for people, no one has anywhere to go, no one has any food.  It’s apparently worse even than it looks on television. — Mary Mary V. Toy                           Kevin Modera Guide Services Professional Guides for Tropical Anglers Placencia, Belize Voice and Fax:  (314) 776-3496 URL:  http://www.kevinmodera.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi: Looking to fish Belize next May, but I’m concerned about the damage that Mitch may have done.  I’ve been searching the net for information to guide my trip decision, but haven’t come up with anything. I normally go to Belize River Lodge, but I have the feeling that they may have been washed away (they are right on the river).  I was also considering Blue Horizon.  Anyone have any idea how things fared at these two places and if Mitch’s rath may have screwed up the waters into next year? Thanks. Adam Hi Adam, I think they were pretty lucky in Belize. I am not really sure about total damage, but heard that El Pescador did OK. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

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Hi: Looking to fish Belize next May, but I’m concerned about the damage that Mitch may have done.  I’ve been searching the net for information to guide my trip decision, but haven’t come up with anything. I normally go to Belize River Lodge, but I have the feeling that they may have been washed away (they are right on the river).  I was also considering Blue Horizon.  Anyone have any idea how things fared at these two places and if Mitch’s rath may have screwed up the waters into next year? Thanks. Adam

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Also interested in response … would like to go there next year … was

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Are you guys for real? You’re talking about a hurricane that has killed thousands, and you’re worried it may have messed up your proposed fishing trips. — Colin Brown – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also interested in response … would like to go there next year … was

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you moron they’re just asking about damn fishing trips here. take your patsyism elsewhere — Nicholas J. Slodki

:Are you guys for real? : :You’re talking about a hurricane that has killed thousands, and you’re :worried it may have messed up your proposed fishing trips. : : :– :Colin Brown : : : : Also interested in response … would like to go there next year … was : : : :

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Question:

Okay, with this post, we’ve established absolutely nothing. Everyone is going to have their own opinions. But, if you will note the subject ‘-freshwater fish-’ then you will find that the original poster might have wondered about the best freshwater gamefish. Last time I checked, tarpon and mullet aren’t freshwater fish. Since that established nothing, why not establish nothing again? Which saltwater fish is king? Thanks, Bryce

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Okay, with this post, we’ve established absolutely nothing. Everyone is going to have their own opinions. But, if you will note the subject ‘-freshwater fish-’ then you will find that the original poster might have wondered about the best freshwater gamefish. Last time I checked, tarpon and mullet aren’t freshwater fish.

FYI….They live in both fresh and salt water….  Since that established nothing, why not establish nothing again? Which saltwater fish is king? Thanks, Bryce

WHALE SHARK on a 8 wgt. fished with a 1000 naught, 64 inch, 15# dumbell head/eye chartreuse/white clouser with a 150 lb shock tippet. Bimini twist optional. seriously… Permit me to vote *PERMIT*. (btw, I’ve never had the pleasure of catching one with a flyrod…but years ago I did land one on a light spinner outfit in the Florida Keys and that memory still burns bright in my gray matter, or what’s left of it.)

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In my meager opinion, pound for pound ( or ounce for ounce) bluegills are the most fun to catch.  Tying on a tiny midge, or a fair sized popper for a big fat "sunnie" is probably the most fun one can have on a hot summer’s day.  Next time you fish for these little guys, notice how vicious they can be!  It’s great!   If sunfish grew to be the size of muskies, I’d never wade or swim in a lake or pond again!  :) John W. Kramer                           Clearwater Outfitters                   WE ENDORSE CATCH AND RELEASE (717) 938-3423

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If sunfish grew to be the size of muskies, I’d never wade or swim in a lake or pond again!  :)

Hell, they try to be dangerous at the size they are now…    Have you ever accidently stood in a bluegill’s nest while swimming?  They will not hesitate to bite you.   And if you put one in your aquarium at home, they will quickly claim the whole damn tank as their territory, and do their best to kill the other fish, bigger or not. Tough little buggers, and one of God’s greatest gifts to the fly fisherman! Bob Scott

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   For King, Snook. Tarpon run a close second, bonefish third, nothing beats Ladyfish on trout tackle (fourth) and for sheer power, #5 vote goes to the Jack Crevalle.

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I’ve heard that Atlantic Salmon are great fighters, but at Oregon’s Hosmer Lake in mid-summer they give a couple of puny runs, then float gasping on their sides like logs.

Atlantic Salmon in a lake in Oregon?  How did they get there?  I’m not surprised they’re struggling! — Phil Jones Swansea, S Wales

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You shouldn’t limit your question so much. I’ve been a Salmon and Steelhead guide for about 6 years now, and have caught 60 plus pound King Salmon, and 20 plus pound Steelhead. I thought the Steelhead were the fightingest fish I ever put a hook to, until I hooked into a fresh Sockeye. The 9 pound Sockeye did more than any of the Steelhead I’ve ever batttled, so thats the species that gets my vote. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     In your experience, which fish do you feel fights better?    The Coho salmon, Steelhead(rainbow), brown trout, or atlantic   salmon?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You shouldn’t limit your question so much. I’ve been a Salmon and Steelhead guide for about 6 years now, and have caught 60 plus pound King Salmon, and 20 plus pound Steelhead. I thought the Steelhead were the fightingest fish I ever put a hook to, until I hooked into a fresh Sockeye. The 9 pound Sockeye did more than any of the Steelhead I’ve ever batttled, so thats the species that gets my vote.     In your experience, which fish do you feel fights better?    The Coho salmon, Steelhead(rainbow), brown trout, or atlantic   salmon?

Gotta agree with you James, Of all the west coast salmonids the sockeye does the goofiest things when hooked. Tailwalks and high jumps are one thing but to watch a 10lb. sockeye go 3 or 4 feet in the air while wrapping line around itself like an out of control winch is something else indeed. Not much for long runs, but they seem almost epileptic in their behaviour when close to the boat or shore. Pound for pound the most powerful fish has to be the steelhead ( on the West coast ) Can’t comment on the Atlantics as we won’t be able to catch them here for a few more years (a couple more involuntary escapements from the local fish farms otta do it!) "Catch and release everything you legally have to, or don’t want to eat"

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I have fought some 3-5 LB shad that struggled and ripped line off more than a 20+ LB steelhead. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Question for fellow flyfishers:    In your experience, which fish do you feel fights better?   The Coho salmon, Steelhead(rainbow), brown trout, or atlantic  salmon?  I always talk with fishermen who have varying opinions about the above fish.  Which is harder to entice with a fly? Thanks for any opinions.——Muskie

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You shouldn’t limit your question so much. I’ve been a Salmon and Steelhead guide for about 6 years now, and have caught 60 plus pound King Salmon, and 20 plus pound Steelhead. I thought the Steelhead were the fightingest fish I ever put a hook to, until I hooked into a fresh Sockeye. The 9 pound Sockeye did more than any of the Steelhead I’ve ever batttled, so thats the species that gets my vote.

Right.  Ive seen fresh sockeye so enthusiastic they jump 10 feet out of the river, land on the bank, then tail-flop themselves back in, before you can reel in the slack!  I saw one jump and hit the fisherman in his chest one time. — -Wayne Trzyna                           Fight spam! Join CAUCE (Coalition  http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~trzyna    See http://www.cauce.org/

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Carp.  Survive anywhere.  Dams, cows and polllution haven’t killed’em. Bar room brawlers on light tackle.  At least as spooky and hard to catch as other species mentioned….specially on a fly. — Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                          Tom McGuane

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My $.02 worth: as a general rule, it seems to depend more on the water temperature and oxygen content than the variety of fish.   Example: I’ve heard that Atlantic Salmon are great fighters, but at Oregon’s Hosmer Lake in mid-summer they give a couple of puny runs, then float gasping on their sides like logs.    We have to stay by the fish until they get their ‘breath’ back to keep the always waiting eagles and osprey from snatching them from the surface.   It also seems that fish that are more naturally acclimated to warm water, like bluegill and bass, have more energy in the same conditions than transplants.     Pound for pound, after 30+ years of fly fishing, I think that bluegills and saltwater perch give the best fight.    If anyone ever creates a five pound bluegill that leaps while fighting, trout and steelhead hatcheries will be a thing of the past       I enjoy trying to catch different species and have also been fishing since jesus was a kid. I most emphatically agree with you. Here in Florida we have what we call stump knockers which are BIG bream and they ain’t for a 2wt. In point of fact, for speed, length of run, and power, the lowly mullet when up the rivers beats a trout hands down. Another fish which should be running now in this area and exhibits unseen power is the American shad (not to be confused with the gizard shad). It is my understanding that carp are great fighters also but I’m reserving my opinion on them till I hook one.                                                      John Popp                                                    in Sanford Fl.

I DONT GIVE A RATS  ASS ABOUT WHICH FISH IS KING,THEY’RE ALL FUN ON THE LONG ROD.AND ANOTHER THING,HOW IN THE HELL DID A MULLET GET THAT FAR UP THE ST. JOHN’S?AND I GUESS THE 64$ QUESTION IS HOW DID YOU GET IT TO HIT A FLY LINE!

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TARPON THATS ALL I’VE GOT TO SAY

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My $.02 worth: as a general rule, it seems to depend more on the water temperature and oxygen content than the variety of fish.   Example: I’ve heard that Atlantic Salmon are great fighters, but at Oregon’s Hosmer Lake in mid-summer they give a couple of puny runs, then float gasping on their sides like logs.    We have to stay by the fish until they get their ‘breath’ back to keep the always waiting eagles and osprey from snatching them from the surface.   It also seems that fish that are more naturally acclimated to warm water, like bluegill and bass, have more energy in the same conditions than transplants.     Pound for pound, after 30+ years of fly fishing, I think that bluegills and saltwater perch give the best fight.    If anyone ever creates a five pound bluegill that leaps while fighting, trout and steelhead hatcheries will be a thing of the past       I enjoy trying to catch different species and have also been fishing since jesus was a kid. I most emphatically agree with you. Here in Florida we have what we call stump knockers which are BIG bream and they ain’t for a 2wt. In point of fact, for speed, length of run, and power, the lowly mullet when up the rivers beats a trout hands down. Another fish which should be running now in this area and exhibits unseen power is the American shad (not to be confused with the gizard shad). It is my understanding that carp are great fighters also but I’m reserving my opinion on them till I hook one.                                                      John Popp                                                    in Sanford Fl. I DONT GIVE A RATS  ASS ABOUT WHICH FISH IS KING,THEY’RE ALL FUN ON THE LONG ROD.AND ANOTHER THING,HOW IN THE HELL DID A MULLET GET THAT FAR UP THE ST. JOHN’S?AND I GUESS THE 64$ QUESTION IS HOW DID YOU GET IT TO HIT A FLY LINE!

      Mullet are often in the St.John’s past Palatka and are legal to spear fish in salt run. Most of the St.Johns is tide water and is shrimped with cast nets, sting rays are caught as far south as sanford and the European ell comes upstream as far as Lake Monro as well as croaker. Now as to getting a mullet to bite on a fly line, it requires "chumming" with chicken feed as follows- Take a handfull of chicken feed and dampen it forming a semi cohesive ball, throw the ball into the water and they will come. The mullet often roil the water to a foam. After throwing the "chum" into the water fallow quickly with any slow sinking fly in the middle of the feeding and hang on. By the way The rodman spill way is part of the Oklawaha system and slows the millions of gallons spewed from silver springs to the St.Johns river. It is heavy with strippers, reds, catfish, bass, and various species both fresh and salt. While I lived in San Mateo, it was one of my favorite fishing spots. Many salt water species travel far up the St.Johns to spawn.

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 Pound for pound, after 30+ years of fly fishing, I think that bluegills and saltwater perch give the best fight. Right. One of the most enjoyable things to do is walk to a bream pond and pull out those thrashing blugills one after another for hours on end. Bryce

I vote along with you guys. Ounce for ounce, the mighty bluegill is one feisty fish. –Walt

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What ever is on the end of my line at the time…. I have had my mouth go completely dry, I was so excited the first fish I caught with a fly I had tied myself… It was a small bream.   Same feeling when a nice trout.   Same feeling when a "baby" four foot tarpon "takes high air", and same feeling when a brown finally decides my offering is worthy……   I get excited by em all… and that’s after 58 years….  I still dream about rank fish for greatness in battle I would list them as 0.  Bream – especially on a very light long rod… 1. Atlantic Salmon 2. Small mouth bass 3.  Steelhead trout 4.  Tarpon 5.  King Salmon and one of the toughest never give up, never lay over fish, I have ever caught is a char… I don’t necessarily like the way a brown fights because they don’t show themselves… Supposedly there is a strange fish in New Guinea that requires 1/8 cable to hold and a 55 horse power motor going in full in opposite direction to keep it out of the trees and a 130 pound/wire shock tippet and one still stripped the gears out of the motor pulling the boat against the prop!!!!!  least that’s the way I heard the story but have never caught one. I need to go fishing… hope this weather clears… Alan E. Hoover       to quote one of my favorite authors: "Fly fishing is such great fun, it really ought to be done in bed"  John Voelker, aka Robert Traver

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Supposedly there is a strange fish in New Guinea that requires 1/8 cable to hold and a 55 horse power motor going in full in opposite direction to keep it out of the trees and a 130 pound/wire shock tippet and one still stripped the gears out of the motor pulling the boat against the prop!!!!!  least that’s the way I heard the story but have never caught one.

I’ve never caugh one either, but the do exist. Papuan bass or New Guinea black bass are reputed to be awesome stump pullers. Your descriptions are probably not far from the truth. They are a fresh water lutjanid (snapper) and have been caught to around 50lb. Lefty Kreh has a video with some New Guinea bass action, and if you see it, Greg Norman (golfer) has fishing video that covers them too. John Knight Sydney Fly Rodders’  

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Walter G. Winter wrote I vote along with you guys. Ounce for ounce, the mighty bluegill is one feisty fish.

and don’t forget the penalty for mishandling these little buggers —                                                             -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – –Walt

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  Question for fellow flyfishers:     In your experience, which fish do you feel fights better?    The Coho salmon, Steelhead(rainbow), brown trout, or atlantic   salmon?     I always talk with fishermen who have varying opinions about the above fish.  Which is harder to entice with a fly?  Thanks for any opinions.——Muskie

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    In your experience, which fish do you feel fights better?    The Coho salmon, Steelhead(rainbow), brown trout, or atlantic   salmon?  

James Henshall wrote more than a century ago it was the "black" bass i.e. smallmouth. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Response:

My $.02 worth: as a general rule, it seems to depend more on the water temperature and oxygen content than the variety of fish.   Example: I’ve heard that Atlantic Salmon are great fighters, but at Oregon’s Hosmer Lake in mid-summer they give a couple of puny runs, then float gasping on their sides like logs.    We have to stay by the fish until they get their ‘breath’ back to keep the always waiting eagles and osprey from snatching them from the surface.   It also seems that fish that are more naturally acclimated to warm water, like bluegill and bass, have more energy in the same conditions than transplants.     Pound for pound, after 30+ years of fly fishing, I think that bluegills and saltwater perch give the best fight.    If anyone ever creates a five pound bluegill that leaps while fighting, trout and steelhead hatcheries will be a thing of the past

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In my experience the most thrilling fighter is the Steelhead.  They do a jumping, tail walking, head shaking fight that is unparalleled. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail GO TO  http://www/ccnet.com/~emh FOR TRAVEL TIE BOX PLANS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Question for fellow flyfishers:     In your experience, which fish do you feel fights better?    The Coho salmon, Steelhead(rainbow), brown trout, or atlantic   salmon?     I always talk with fishermen who have varying opinions about the above fish.  Which is harder to entice with a fly?  Thanks for any opinions.——Muskie

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 Pound for pound, after 30+ years of fly fishing, I think that bluegills and saltwater perch give the best fight.

Right. One of the most enjoyable things to do is walk to a bream pond and pull out those thrashing blugills one after another for hours on end. Bryce

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IMHO it is the one on the end of my line at the time. J. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My $.02 worth: as a general rule, it seems to depend more on the water temperature and oxygen content than the variety of fish.   Example: I’ve heard that Atlantic Salmon are great fighters, but at Oregon’s Hosmer Lake in mid-summer they give a couple of puny runs, then float gasping on their sides like logs.    We have to stay by the fish until they get their ‘breath’ back to keep the always waiting eagles and osprey from snatching them from the surface.   It also seems that fish that are more naturally acclimated to warm water, like bluegill and bass, have more energy in the same conditions than transplants.     Pound for pound, after 30+ years of fly fishing, I think that bluegills and saltwater perch give the best fight.    If anyone ever creates a five pound bluegill that leaps while fighting, trout and steelhead hatcheries will be a thing of the past

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My $.02 worth: as a general rule, it seems to depend more on the water temperature and oxygen content than the variety of fish.   Example: I’ve heard that Atlantic Salmon are great fighters, but at Oregon’s Hosmer Lake in mid-summer they give a couple of puny runs, then float gasping on their sides like logs.    We have to stay by the fish until they get their ‘breath’ back to keep the always waiting eagles and osprey from snatching them from the surface.   It also seems that fish that are more naturally acclimated to warm water, like bluegill and bass, have more energy in the same conditions than transplants.     Pound for pound, after 30+ years of fly fishing, I think that bluegills and saltwater perch give the best fight.    If anyone ever creates a five pound bluegill that leaps while fighting, trout and steelhead hatcheries will be a thing of the past

      I enjoy trying to catch different species and have also been fishing since jesus was a kid. I most emphatically agree with you. Here in Florida we have what we call stump knockers which are BIG bream and they ain’t for a 2wt. In point of fact, for speed, length of run, and power, the lowly mullet when up the rivers beats a trout hands down. Another fish which should be running now in this area and exhibits unseen power is the American shad (not to be confused with the gizard shad). It is my understanding that carp are great fighters also but I’m reserving my opinion on them till I hook one.                                                      John Popp                                                    in Sanford Fl.

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Question:

I have a Tempo and camp/fish every other weekend. I love it!  It is a great car but space is somewhat limited.  I’m sure the car can handle the drive but you will have to pack wisely.  Space is adequate for 2 on short (1 week) journeys, but I suspect you may run out of places to store your gear if you will be out longer than that. Jim

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[ Article crossposted from rec.travel.usa-canada ] [ Author was Ray F Pero ] My wife and I will be travelling around the Yukon from late July until late August this year.  We will fly into Whitehorse, rent a car and drive around the territory.  We also hope to hook up with some local (inexpensive) outfitters for a guided wilderness experience. I need answers to three questions to help me plan our trip. 1) The best rental car deal appears to be for a Ford Tempo.  Would a Tempo be good enough for the drive up the Dempster Highway to Inuvik and back? 2) We intend to camp along the way to save some money on accomodations.   How much can I expect to pay per night at the campgrounds?  Is it necessary to reserve space ahead of time or can I just show up? 3) Many of the trips listed in the brochures I’ve received in the mail regarding wilderness adventure travel are prohibitively expensive.  Would there be any local guides who we could hire by the day for a more reasonable amount of money?  I don’t expect anyone to carry my gear or cook for me, I simply want someone who knows the local terrain and conditions and who could add an element of safety to the trip.  I’m hoping I can save money with the added benefit of tailoring the trip to meet our wishes.  How much would a local guide charge per day for such a trip?  We will bring all of our own equipment (except possibly for a canoe should we decide upon a river trip). Any help with the above questions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

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[ Article crossposted from rec.travel.usa-canada ] [ Author was Ray F Pero ] My wife and I will be travelling around the Yukon from late July until late August this year.  We will fly into Whitehorse, rent a car and drive around the territory.  We also hope to hook up with some local (inexpensive) outfitters for a guided wilderness experience. I need answers to three questions to help me plan our trip. 1) The best rental car deal appears to be for a Ford Tempo.  Would a Tempo be good enough for the drive up the Dempster Highway to Inuvik and back?

Yes, I think you would make it.  It is a really well kept gravel road in comparison to any gravel roads in the lower 48, and high clearance is not a requirement.  Make sure to bring at least one if not more spare tires in good shape and full of air as the gravel really eats up the tires. The only challenge on this road is the remoteness should anything go wrong. I blew one tire and it was shredded by the time I got the car stopped, the gravel is very unforgiving.  Also slow WAY down and/or stop and pull over as far as you can to the right whenever a truck is oncoming as they throw lots of gravel and don’t slow down for you.  Much better to take a gravel spray stopped than moving.  Also stop in Dawson before you start the trip and check on the current conditions at the visitors center.  They have nice videos to preview the trip and really get you excited and informed before you go.  Also plan on more days than you think for the trip. 2) We intend to camp along the way to save some money on accomodations.   How much can I expect to pay per night at the campgrounds?  Is it necessary to reserve space ahead of time or can I just show up?

No need to reserve space, there is no overcrowding, although if you are worried about getting a choice campsite then stop early in the day, like 4 or 5pm instead of 8,9, or 10pm.  Although all the campsites are great and firewood is included in your self registration fee.  Be sure to bring some sort of axe though as it is not pre-chopped. 3) Many of the trips listed in the brochures I’ve received in the mail regarding wilderness adventure travel are prohibitively expensive.  Would there be any local guides who we could hire by the day for a more reasonable amount of money?  I don’t expect anyone to carry my gear or cook for me, I simply want someone who knows the local terrain and conditions and who could add an element of safety to the trip.  I’m hoping I can save money with the added benefit of tailoring the trip to meet our wishes.  How much would a local guide charge per day for such a trip?  We will bring all of our own equipment (except possibly for a canoe should we decide upon a river trip).

Local guides are definitely available; just look for flyers in resteraunts and on posts, in sporting goods stores, asking around, etc. They are definitely the best way to go IMHO because they are usually locals who have lived there for a good long time and have a lot of character.  My personal recommendation is to plan to spend some quality time in Teslin, south of Whitehorse.  Teslin Lake is large, but provides excellent fishing opportunities, especially for Lake Trout.  There is also great fishing in the streams that feed the lake, and many challenging hiking trails.  I’m sure even canoeing would be a possibility.  We arrived in Teslin and wanted to fish for Lake Trout, found a flyer describing a guide, at the general store, went to the resteraunt and found a pay phone inside. We proceeded to make the call and it turned out the guide was in the resteraunt and answered on his mobile phone.  It was hilarious.  So we booked him for the next day and we had a blast.  I would definetly recommend him and if you would like his info I may be able to find it at home.  He also had all kinds of tips for the rest of our trip.  He informed us of where the locals tell people to fish and where the locals fish.  He also did guided hiking, rafting, etc. Well worth the $, and much cheaper than an outfitter. Any help with the above questions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Have a great time; I wish I was going again. Feel free to email me with more questions. Ken Koca — Lockheed Martin Astronautics   (303) 977-5464 Mail Stop: T-3725 P.O. Box 179                   "Don’t think about Denver, CO  80201              memories, make them."

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Question:

One thing to consider if you want to FF from a canoe is that you’ll be only marginally higher out of the water than if you are in a float tube; you can stand up in a cartopper, but a canoe …. Consequently, you might want to consider a longer rod (as the tubers often pack). A 10ft rod will keep your backcast drier than an 8ft one. Or, preferably, work on your casting to keep the back cast out of the water.   Sitting in a canoe you’re at least as high out of the water as you typically are when wading.  So, if you’re hitting the water behind you in a canoe, you’re almost certainly doing the same thing when wading–i.e., you casting could use some help. And improving your casting is cheaper than buying another, longer rod. Emil

I would have to agree there.  Canoes are great.  I use one on Lake Cayuga in NY, and I dont know about anyone else, but if you are somewhat able, I have never had any problems standing. Jon

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I’ve found that if you’re right-handed, it helps to cast from the right side of the canoe, parallel with its length, i.e. not across the beam. And try not to let the stripped line get tangled up in the paddle, float jacket and six-pack and/or your ankle in the bottom of the boat. When the mother of all basses hits, you don’t want to be pulled overboard to your doom like some freshwater Captain Ahab. Course, I could think of worse ways to go…. Sent Via SportsNet On-Line Services Toronto’s Premier Sports and Recreation Service Modem: 416-223-2463    Phone: 416-223-2250 Ext. 33

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Good for you!  I’m convinced float tubes became popular when folks no longer had time to lean to paddle.  For range, keeping dry and all-round fun canoes are are wonderful.  now if you want to get really frisky learn to pole upstream. — ** Louis Bignami, Publisher         http://www.finefishing.com Fine Fishing Internet Magazine                "largest fishing mag on the Net" **

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best thing about fishing from a canoe…even if the fish aren’t bitin’ you’re, well, in that canoe… Tim Walker

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Personally, I love canoes too,they are just prettier and much more versatile than any other watercraft, especially when you add options to a standard canoe. Consider these advantages: -Canoes are inherently more hydrodynamic than a john boat, and move through the water with less effort (how much less depends on hull shape.) -Because they’re streamlined at both ends, canoes move forward easily yet still easily "hold" in a good spot against a swift river current hitting the stern. -A kneeling canoeist can be as stealthy as a float tuber and cover much more water. (Though admittedly, a float tuber can move without having to put the rod down.) – A long, narrow, fast canoe can be converted to a "john boat like"  slow, stable craft by adding solid foam or inflatable sponsons (aka swimmies or water wings). These canoe ‘training wheels’ install in seconds and may not add much drag at all.  They’re a God send when you want to stand up to spot fish or when running unfamiliar big rapids. -Adding gunnel mounted oarlocks or a rowing frame to an already fast canoe will get the lone angler across the lake or up the river faster than any other non-motorized fishing craft (including a kayak). – There are "collapsible canoes" available from Ally and ScanSports which can store in a closet, or travel in the trunk of compact car, a float plane or as checked baggage on an airliner. -You can add a motor mount to almost any canoe for long hauls against wind or current. I could go on, but if you’re only going to get one craft to handle every possible fly fishing situation, get a canoe.  This doesn’t rule out the possibility that for the type of fishing you do most, another craft may be just as good or better.  You be the judge. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When considering a canoe for fishing, make sure you can easily paddle it. Beamy boats are great for short hauls but if you’re going to where the fish are and the other guys in the beamy boats aren’t get a boat that you can paddle.  A solo boat is okay if you don’t have or don’t want any friends.  Suggest a boat in the 14 to 15 foot range that could handle a center paddling position ( add a seat yourself) and then you’d have a boat that could get you there. Good tumblehome to make paddling a little easier.  Suggest learning to fish from the seated or kneeling position…or if you’re real good try standing on the gunwhales 8/]) TK

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: When considering a canoe for fishing, make sure you can easily paddle it. : Beamy boats are great for short hauls but if you’re going to where the : fish are and the other guys in the beamy boats aren’t get a boat that you : can paddle.  A solo boat is okay if you don’t have or don’t want any : friends.  Suggest a boat in the 14 to 15 foot range that could handle a : center paddling position ( add a seat yourself) and then you’d have a boat : that could get you there. Good tumblehome to make paddling a little : easier.  Suggest learning to fish from the seated or kneeling : position…or if you’re real good try standing on the gunwhales 8/]) One thing to consider if you want to FF from a canoe is that you’ll be only marginally higher out of the water than if you are in a float tube; you can stand up in a cartopper, but a canoe …. Consequently, you might want to consider a longer rod (as the tubers often pack). A 10ft rod will keep your backcast drier than an 8ft one. — 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (604) 368-9341

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : When considering a canoe for fishing, make sure you can easily paddle it. : Beamy boats are great for short hauls but if you’re going to where the : fish are and the other guys in the beamy boats aren’t get a boat that you : can paddle.  A solo boat is okay if you don’t have or don’t want any : friends.  Suggest a boat in the 14 to 15 foot range that could handle a : center paddling position ( add a seat yourself) and then you’d have a boat : that could get you there. Good tumblehome to make paddling a little : easier.  Suggest learning to fish from the seated or kneeling : position…or if you’re real good try standing on the gunwhales 8/]) One thing to consider if you want to FF from a canoe is that you’ll be only marginally higher out of the water than if you are in a float tube; you can stand up in a cartopper, but a canoe …. Consequently, you might want to consider a longer rod (as the tubers often pack). A 10ft rod will keep your backcast drier than an 8ft one.

Or, preferably, work on your casting to keep the back cast out of the water.   Sitting in a canoe you’re at least as high out of the water as you typically are when wading.  So, if you’re hitting the water behind you in a canoe, you’re almost certainly doing the same thing when wading–i.e., you casting could use some help. And improving your casting is cheaper than buying another, longer rod. Emil Department of Education Phone:  (607) 255-2267 419 Kennedy Hall                Fax:    (607) 255-7905 Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853

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‘Course, I just think that canoes are wonderful so I’m biased. I can also cast 50′ easily from a sitting position, about as far as I need

to. Any recomemndations for the best 1 person canoe for streams and rivers? Thanx, Mike

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‘Course, I just think that canoes are wonderful so I’m biased. I can also cast 50′ easily from a sitting position, about as far as I need to. Any recomemndations for the best 1 person canoe for streams and rivers? Thanx, Mike

Mike,  I would take a serious look at the OldTown line of canoes. They have a few models that are ideal for your situation. I have the Dicovery 133K and it is a dream to fish from. The ruggedness coupled with the 40 1/2" beam makes it a great fly fishing vessel.                                     Best of Luck,                                                    Jay              /Leave nothing but footprints                                               /                                              /                                             /                                            /                                           /                                       O  /                                       |_/o                                       |                                      / |

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Question:

: If you come up with ideas on how to get your girlfriend to take up : flyfishing for steelhead, drop me a line,…Bill Uyeki If I can make it so she doesn’t have to get up early … walk too far … have someplace warm to sit in the sun while fishing … and generally allow for napping time … I’m set … doesn’t sound condusive to steelhead …  ;-) KStJ

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I spent last weekend on the Mad River trying my luck with the Steelhead run … does anyone have suggestions for someplace closer to S.F.  I’d appreciate a day trip location instead of a weekend trip … and my girl-friend would probably a it also.  ;-) KStJ

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I spent last weekend on the Mad River trying my luck with the Steelhead run … does anyone have suggestions for someplace closer to S.F.  I’d appreciate a day trip location instead of a weekend trip … and my girl-friend would probably a it also.  ;-)

The Gualala (sp?) is 3 hours from SF.  It’s a much smaller river than the Mad, but I’ve seens tons of fish and good water color there 2 days after a rain.  With these smaller coastal rivers, timing is even more critical. The Russian is even closer, but I’ve heard in recent years the number of steelhead returning to the hatchery on Dry Creek is barely over 600.  By comparison, consider that when things are really rockin’, the Mad River Hatchery will get 250+ steelhead a week, and they have to take some back down to the river, because they can’t handle any more! If you come up with ideas on how to get your girlfriend to take up flyfishing for steelhead, drop me a line,…Bill Uyeki

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Question:

I bought a vest from an outfit in Montana called Goldeneye.  I got their shortie vest.  Supplex material, many pockets, YKK zippers, etc.

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I bought a vest from an outfit in Montana called Goldeneye.  I got their shortie vest.  Supplex material, many pockets, YKK zippers, etc.

I got something pretty cool for Christmas.  It’s made by  Liegh, and is a kind of non-vest.  Two pouches, like fanny packs front and rear held on by a harness.  It seems to hold quite a bit of gear, and include two water bottles in easy to get to holders.  Has a nice net loder as well.  I haven’t gone out with it, but I’m certain I’ll like it.  I think it goes in the $50.00 range, and comes in several colors.  I hope this helps, and this posting doesn’t screw things on this thread up too much. Chaz

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Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Path:

caen!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ao665 Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 28 Am looking to buy a budget priced vest (under $50).  Am considering Cabela, LL. Bean, and FeatherCraft offerings.  Any experience or ideas?

Several stores are having sales at his time of year.  I just found two local stores that were selling Patagonia vests for 40% off.  I got the vertical vest for only $60.00.  It’s a great vest, much better than the Orvis Tac-L-Pak which is already ripping apart after only 2 months of use (I am going to try to see if Orvis will take it back).  My girlfriend also found a good deal by going to the Columbia Clothing Outlet store where she found a "Henry’s Fork" vest for $30.00.  This is also much higher quality than the Orvis. Good luck. – Steve

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Am looking to buy a budget priced vest (under $50).  Am considering Cabela, LL. Bean, and FeatherCraft offerings.  Any experience or ideas?

My wife bought me an LL Bean Guide vest ($55 US).  It is made of a fairly light fabric, but it is 65% polyester/35%cotton so it should endure.  (The catalogue says it is 65% cotton but the label says that polester predominates.)  Because of the high polyester content it dries quickly. It does not have a high tech collar like an Orvis Tac-L-Pak, but it is comfortable anyway. It has lots of pockets.  The small ones beside your navel will hold a 3X5X1.5 inch box.  The little one on the right chest pocket will hol a nymph wallet.  The one I like best, though, is the big gusseted cargo pouch on the back.  It is just like the game pouch on my grouse vest.  It is very handy for carrying water, sanwiches, and a raincoat.  It is big enough that I can stuff my landing net in there while I bust through the alders. Don’t you wish you had a wife like mine? Keep your stick on the ice. Thos.

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Am looking to buy a budget priced vest (under $50).  Am considering Cabela, LL. Bean, and FeatherCraft offerings.  Any experience or ideas?

Response:

Am looking to buy a budget priced vest (under $50).  Am considering Cabela, LL. Bean, and FeatherCraft offerings.  Any experience or ideas?

A friend has one from Cabellas and likes it.  In general, get one with more pockets than you think you can use — at some point, you’ll be glad you have them!  Its hard via the mail, but watch out for thin fabric and low-quality workmanship.  Return it if you think it won’t hold up.  Both Cabellas and Bean are real good about exchanges or refunds if you’re not happy. Enjoy, Nat Davis

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