Question:

OK, maybe this is stupid, maybe its not. The reason I never did any big game hunting (deer, moose, etc) was I felt sorry for the animals. No problem whatsoever with my buddies who did it; I like deer meat. But I had this horrible empathy for them so I didn’t want to shoot them myself. Let someone else more steel-willed do it. Now, when I see pictures of trout on the fly, I see always notice them staring down at their mouths, like they are trying like hell to see what they have that is dragging them out of the water. Its like they are totally amazed or something. Not that I’m gonna quit fishing or anything, but when I see pics like this one http://www.ncffb.org/cgi-bin/ncffb.cgi?read=139220 I just sort of find myself feeling sorry for the poor bastard. Is this, like, completely abnormal? riverman

Response:

Not that I’m gonna quit fishing or anything, but when I see pics like this one http://www.ncffb.org/cgi-bin/ncffb.cgi?read=139220 I just sort of find myself feeling sorry for the poor bastard. Is this, like, completely abnormal? riverman

I read somewhere that the fish tries to keep its eyes pointing up so if it is lying on its side it looks as if it is looking at its nose, this is one way of telling if a fish in a picture is alive or dead. I wonder if that is why a fish stays still if you hold it lying on its back making it dissorientated. — Don`t Worry, Be Happy       Sandy —       Website:-  http://www.ftscotland.co.uk     IRC:- Sandyb in #Rabble  uk3.arcnet.vapor.com Port:6667      #Rabble Channel Website:- http://rabbled.cjb.net              ICQ : 41266150

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, maybe this is stupid, maybe its not. The reason I never did any big game hunting (deer, moose, etc) was I felt sorry for the animals. No problem whatsoever with my buddies who did it; I like deer meat. But I had this horrible empathy for them so I didn’t want to shoot them myself. Let someone else more steel-willed do it. Now, when I see pictures of trout on the fly, I see always notice them staring down at their mouths, like they are trying like hell to see what they have that is dragging them out of the water. Its like they are totally amazed or something. Not that I’m gonna quit fishing or anything, but when I see pics like this one http://www.ncffb.org/cgi-bin/ncffb.cgi?read=139220 I just sort of find myself feeling sorry for the poor bastard. Is this, like, completely abnormal?

Yes. Stop it. Go fishing. TL, Tim

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not that I’m gonna quit fishing or anything, but when I see pics like this one http://www.ncffb.org/cgi-bin/ncffb.cgi?read=139220 I just sort of find myself feeling sorry for the poor bastard. Is this, like, completely abnormal? riverman I read somewhere that the fish tries to keep its eyes pointing up so if it is lying on its side it looks as if it is looking at its nose, this is one way of telling if a fish in a picture is alive or dead. I wonder if that is why a fish stays still if you hold it lying on its back making it dissorientated.

They are disorientated.  Next time you have a trout held inverted,  watch what it does with its dorsal and pectoral fins and to a lesser degree the ventral fin.  If you move the trout to different angles,  you can induce him to try to roll in the opposite direction.  The fish obviously uses its fins to manoeuvre in the current just like the rudders on a aeroplane.  The trout must be bewildered as to why he cannot control his position whilst in air ~ everything must feel wrong to the fish, and so he dedicates all his brain power into trying to get himself back the right way up before he uses his tail to swim away.  If a trout is delicately help upside down he is so easy to unhook and release ~  however, a grayling is a different matter altogether! Regards, Michael.

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No need to feel sorry for the animals, they dont give a squat about you.  As far as the fish is concerned you are trying to relate to them in human terms…its a fish for pete sakes, its brain is the size of a pebble.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, maybe this is stupid, maybe its not. The reason I never did any big game hunting (deer, moose, etc) was I felt sorry for the animals. No problem whatsoever with my buddies who did it; I like deer meat. But I had this horrible empathy for them so I didn’t want to shoot them myself. Let someone else more steel-willed do it. Now, when I see pictures of trout on the fly, I see always notice them staring down at their mouths, like they are trying like hell to see what they have that is dragging them out of the water. Its like they are totally amazed or something. Not that I’m gonna quit fishing or anything, but when I see pics like this one http://www.ncffb.org/cgi-bin/ncffb.cgi?read=139220 I just sort of find myself feeling sorry for the poor bastard. Is this, like, completely abnormal?

Considering your catch rate, Riverman, I don’t think you have anything to worry about. Think of it this way. If the fish weighed 500 pounds and you were floating down the river, he’d eat you. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Not that I’m gonna quit fishing or anything, but when I see pics like this one http://www.ncffb.org/cgi-bin/ncffb.cgi?read=139220 I just sort of find myself feeling sorry for the poor bastard. Is this, like, completely abnormal? Considering your catch rate, Riverman, I don’t think you have anything to worry about.

If that weren’t so painfully true, it’d be funny. Actually, its pretty funny anyway. riverman

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Question:

Another Lousy Day in Paradise might be a good read for him.  Another other ideas brewing out there?

Since you live where you do, may I suggest that you bring him a couple of books by Tom McGuane. I think he is a local suthor for you. One of my favorites is Outside Chance, but I understand he has a new one out that is just as good if not better. Big Dale  

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Warren, Nice story, you can learn a lot from the old timers. One of the best friends I have in my chapter of TU is 84 years old. He drives 30 miles to meetings & has lots of history to share. He builds beautiful hand made nets for our banquet that helps us make some money for our conservation projects. He came to last fall’s fishing outing & I took him under my wing. We couldn’t get to the best spots because he needs a double knee replacement but we managed to find a spot were he slid down on his butt. On the way up I took his equiptment & then helped pull him up the bank. We didn’t catch any fish but had a great time anyway. Joan Stoliar one of the owners of the  company Folstaf wading staff is involved with Project Access which builds handicapped fishing access in the Catskills. One day every spring she enlists the aid of some TU chapters & a couple of other fishing clubs to help rebuild the ramps (they sometimes get washed out during the winter). We also plant willows to help shade some of the banks. Check this site for forther info: http://www.projectaccess.com/ We are all going to need help getting down to the river when we get older (not too far down the road for me) & I hope there will be some other fisherman willing to help maintain access. Sol

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<snipped Big Dale’s recommendation Thanks for the info.  I will look into getting a copy and reading it first to see if he will enjoy it Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

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Sol, You gave me an idea.  Perhaps I can buy him a year membership in FFF here in Livingston.  I have been meaning to join myself.  It would give him something to do if he isn't already a member.  I think I might offer to take him out fishing too.  We probably won't catch many fish, but I am sure that the trip will be fun anyways.  Thanks for the link, I will check it out this weekend when I have more time. Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

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<snip I'm still trying to sort some things out in my head.  I don't know why this struck me as hard as it did, but I think I am going to make this a little routine.  Hopefully I will be able to give this guy something to look forward to and someone to talk to every now and then.  If that is all I can do, then I will do what I can.  Who knows, maybe it will be just the thing to keep this old guy going for a little longer or at least bring a little happiness to his life.  I only wish I could find another outlet like roff for him to participate in to help fill the vast void.

Warren, Nice gesture. I hope when your angling days are done you will find someone as thoughtful to help you through that final phase of your fishing life. Perhaps he may best be able to continue his fishing through you. What better gift could you possibly give him than the friendship of a fellow angler? Kiyu

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Listen to his stories.  Type them up.  Print 'em out.  Take some pictures of his favorite spots.  Ask to borrow some of his old photos and scan them.  Put together a little booklet of his stories along with scanned photos and have a print shop bind it up.  That'd make a nice gift. Mu

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - Warren Great post. Don't feel too sorry for the guy; just be aware that it comes to us all, if we are lucky. And for sure he is getting out there and enjoying the water and the sport in the only way still available to him. Buy the stuff if its a good deal and you can use it. Thats a way to show respect. The worst approach is to ignore him. Enuf seriousness. An alternative approach on handling this scenario it is to first scout out the situation. Then when he is crossing a field or some other exposed place, quarter in from behind. Drive your teeth into his Achilles tendon, throwing your weight to the right in a rolling motion. As he comes down, release your bight and spin out of the way, taking care to avoid his flailing kicks. Now back off and assess the situation to make sure he actually did fall to the right, in which case no repositioning is necessary ; quarter quickly in from infront and behind to the neck. Definitely reposition if he has fallen to the left. Take the best booty for yourself, its your right, but be sure to share with the rest of the group in order of their help on other hunts. Dave

Warren, Make a print out of David Snedeker's post (above) and show it to the old chap. If He has any SOH, he will probably pee his pants. It might be the best laugh he's had in ages! Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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Warren, A few options come to mind. You could take him lake fishing; no steep banks or currents to contend with, and if you're in the right place at the right time, the fishing can be spectacular. If he's not interested in stillwaters, and you can afford the rod fees, take him to Armstrongs, or somewhere similar. Again, great fishing and much easier to navigate than the Yellowstone river. (BTW, I don't think TBone would be bugged a bit by your idea of bringing your friend a fresh-caught fish or two. In a similar situation, he'd probably do the same thing. It's a tradition as old as fishing itself.) -- Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

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<snip After three days of reading the replys, the original message finally shows up on my server.  Nice story Warren. -- Levi Trample the weak Hurdle the dead

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BTW, I don't think TBone would be bugged a bit by your idea of bringing your friend a fresh-caught fish or two.

I know.  I bet he will actually get a kick out of *me* keeping fish. Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

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Today I was fishing some of the channels of the Yellowstone that I frequent.  I started fishing around 3 and stopped around 7.  When I got back to the truck and was taking off my waders an old timer pulled up and started to ask me how the fishing was.  We ended up talking for close to an hour. Seems this gentleman had fished these channels long before I was even born.  We both shared a love for these channels and think of them as favorite stretches. Needless to say,  we had a common bond despite the vast difference in years so a conversation was not difficult to keep going.   After talking to the guy for about 30 minutes I started to get kind of sad. Joe said (his name was Joe) that he had stopped fishing in the last couple of years because he was too old and couldn't get around good enough anymore.   He had to give up fly tying as well because he can't sit for long periods of time.  He still drives along the river and checks up on his favorite spots I guess just for something to do.   Or maybe it is just his way of still having some kind of contact with fly fishing.  Either way it was sad to see. It really got me to thinking  about what happens when one becomes too old to fish.  I am guessing that he is all alone because he said that he gave some of his rods to his nephews who don't fish so the rods are just sitting in a basement.  Gave me the impression that his wife and kids are deceased if he ever was even married and had kids.  This man was telling me stories about fishing this area back in the 50's and 60's and so it was quite interesting aside from the pitty factor I was feeling. We began talking about the cost of equipment and materials and how expensive things were now compared to before the increase in popularity of fly fishing. He said that he used to by custom made bamboo rods for $60 with $10 extra for modifications to the specs, ect.  Anyways, since he isn't tying anymore he said he would give me a bunch of his tying hooks and would part with some of his gear and tying materials for pretty cheap.  It wasn't that he was trying to sucker me into buying all of his stuff so he could have some pocket money, I think he just wanted to see it go to a nice home. He told me where to find him so next Friday I think I am going to pay him a visit after I get done fishing in the morning.  It was kind of funny, he said to just go to the apartment complex that he lives in and ask for "Joe the fisherman on the 3rd floor."   Since he has to buy his fish from the store now, I think I will take him a couple of fresh caught trout as a gift. I feel obliged to go and visit him, not so much to buy anything he has, but just so he can keep up on what things are like out on his old haunt.  He was really interested in what the channels are like now.  He can't go and see for himself  so he was asking me all kinds of questions.  I could tell that he loved fishing very much and loved this area just as much if not more.  At one point during the conversation I could swear that he started to get a tear in his eye. When I got home the whole event really started to sink in.  I started to think about what I am going to do when I reach the age that I can no longer participate in this "hobby" that we all love so much.  It really has me wondering what happens when you devote so much of your life to something and then get to a point that you are unable to do what you love to do  anymore.  I can only hope that I never have to face this dilema.  But if I do, I hope to that I will have someone to talk to and maybe bring me a fish once in awhile. I just wish there was something I could do like take him fishing even just once more. Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

Today I was fishing some of the channels of the Yellowstone that I frequent.  I started fishing around 3 and stopped around 7.  When I got back to the truck and was taking off my waders an old timer pulled up and started to ask me how the fishing was.  We ended up talking for close to an hour.

        (snip)         nice sentiments, warren.         the answer to the question is photography. wayno

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Warren.. Thanks for that moving story you shared.  My father, who taught me to flyfish, is now paralyzed from the waist down.  He waits for me to report on the last trip, what flies I have last tied, and what the streams were like. The streams are firmly fixed in his mind.  He knows every spot of which I speak.  My mother also reports that when he sleeps she often sees his casting arm going back and forth, and sometimes his hand making the familiar circular motion of an experienced fly tier. I like to think he is on his favorite steam or at his bench.  I suspect he is. Maybe these are things we ought to remember when we are tempted to take verbal shots at each other.  It puts it all in perspective.  It matters not what rod or reel we use, or the degree of our skill.  Let us enjoy each other and the sport we love even though every last one of us is at times a bit odd.  Let us also hope that when each of us age, which God willing we will, and then our time to depart comes, that this God in his grace provides a place to toss a fly and fish our favorite haunt.

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[snip] When I got home the whole event really started to sink in.  I started to think about what I am going to do when I reach the age that I can no longer participate in this "hobby" that we all love so much.

[snip] You’ll do what this gentleman did. You’ll find a good home for it. Paul

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Hmm….not exactly the sort of post I look for in the morning with my coffee. I mean the comics are what I read first in the newspaper, ya know? But it is the sort of thing, that to be a part of, creates a memory….john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Today I was fishing some of the channels of the Yellowstone that I frequent.  I started fishing around 3 and stopped around 7.  When I got back to the truck and was taking off my waders an old timer pulled up and started to ask me how the fishing was.  We ended up talking for close to an hour. Seems this gentleman had fished these channels long before I was even born. We both shared a love for these channels and think of them as favorite stretches. Needless to say,  we had a common bond despite the vast difference in years so a conversation was not difficult to keep going. After talking to the guy for about 30 minutes I started to get kind of sad. Joe said (his name was Joe) that he had stopped fishing in the last couple of years because he was too old and couldn’t get around good enough anymore. He had to give up fly tying as well because he can’t sit for long periods of time. He still drives along the river and checks up on his favorite spots I guess just for something to do.   Or maybe it is just his way of still having some kind of contact with fly fishing.  Either way it was sad to see. It really got me to thinking  about what happens when one becomes too old to fish.  I am guessing that he is all alone because he said that he gave some of his rods to his nephews who don’t fish so the rods are just sitting in a basement.  Gave me the impression that his wife and kids are deceased if he ever was even married and had kids.  This man was telling me stories about fishing this area back in the 50’s and 60’s and so it was quite interesting aside from the pitty factor I was feeling. We began talking about the cost of equipment and materials and how expensive things were now compared to before the increase in popularity of fly fishing. He said that he used to by custom made bamboo rods for $60 with $10 extra for modifications to the specs, ect.  Anyways, since he isn’t tying anymore he said he would give me a bunch of his tying hooks and would part with some of his gear and tying materials for pretty cheap.  It wasn’t that he was trying to sucker me into buying all of his stuff so he could have some pocket money, I think he just wanted to see it go to a nice home. He told me where to find him so next Friday I think I am going to pay him a visit after I get done fishing in the morning.  It was kind of funny, he said to just go to the apartment complex that he lives in and ask for "Joe the fisherman on the 3rd floor."   Since he has to buy his fish from the store now, I think I will take him a couple of fresh caught trout as a gift. I feel obliged to go and visit him, not so much to buy anything he has, but just so he can keep up on what things are like out on his old haunt.  He was really interested in what the channels are like now.  He can’t go and see for himself  so he was asking me all kinds of questions.  I could tell that he loved fishing very much and loved this area just as much if not more.  At one point during the conversation I could swear that he started to get a tear in his eye. When I got home the whole event really started to sink in.  I started to think about what I am going to do when I reach the age that I can no longer participate in this "hobby" that we all love so much.  It really has me wondering what happens when you devote so much of your life to something and then get to a point that you are unable to do what you love to do  anymore. I can only hope that I never have to face this dilema.  But if I do, I hope to that I will have someone to talk to and maybe bring me a fish once in awhile. I just wish there was something I could do like take him fishing even just once more. Warren X#-[ Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

Why not spend time brinigng him along on trips while introducing some new people to th s port.

I was thinking of that and the float idea as MC suggested, but there are two problems.  The first is that he said he can’t even walk down a bank because he can’t get back up since his legs are so weak now.  Second, he can’t sit for long periods of time.  I suggested that he try some bait fishing, but I think he almost took it as an insult, although he was kind and pretended he didn’t hear.  He is pretty old and I doubt he can wade anymore even with help and the area is very rocky and slippery.  I don’t think I would like to take on the liability of taking him out like that. I guess the best I can do for now is bring him a fish every now and then (Oh god, wait until TBone hears this :-}), buy some of his gear, and tell him what things were like.  In the future, maybe a float trip when I get a boat built. Something short with lots of stops would probably be ok. I’m still trying to sort some things out in my head.  I don’t know why this struck me as hard as it did, but I think I am going to make this a little routine.  Hopefully I will be able to give this guy something to look forward to and someone to talk to every now and then.  If that is all I can do, then I will do what I can.  Who knows, maybe it will be just the thing to keep this old guy going for a little longer or at least bring a little happiness to his life.  I only wish I could find another outlet like roff for him to participate in to help fill the vast void. Maybe I can take him some books to read.  Trout Bum and Another Lousy Day in Paradise might be a good read for him.  Another other ideas brewing out there? Other than quartering him and taking all the loot that is (Thanks Dave S, I’ll let you know how it goes). Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

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Buy his gear if you like it and can afford it, and take him fishing if you can.  The best bet is a boat trip. He will probably be pleased to see his gear go to somebody who will use and look after it. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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Why not spend time brinigng him along on trips while introducing some new people to th s port. You will accomplish 3 things, make the gentleman happy, propogate the love of the sport in others, and really get some pleasure for yourself by doing it. Regards from Montreal John Brkich

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Warren Great post. Don’t feel too sorry for the guy; just be aware that it comes to us all, if we are lucky. And for sure he is getting out there and enjoying the water and the sport in the only way still available to him. Buy the stuff if its a good deal and you can use it. Thats a way to show respect. The worst approach is to ignore him. Enuf seriousness. An alternative approach on handling this scenario it is to first scout out the situation. Then when he is crossing a field or some other exposed place, quarter in from behind. Drive your teeth into his Achilles tendon, throwing your weight to the right in a rolling motion. As he comes down, release your bight and spin out of the way, taking care to avoid his flailing kicks. Now back off and assess the situation to make sure he actually did fall to the right, in which case no repositioning is necessary ; quarter quickly in from infront and behind to the neck. Definitely reposition if he has fallen to the left. Take the best booty for yourself, its your right, but be sure to share with the rest of the group in order of their help on other hunts. Dave

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Question:

I’m looking for a description of the fishing itself.  I only ask this because you said I don’t need pay $ for a guide on my first day. Additionally, I’ve never fished the Madison River.  

Might not be so bad.  The guy is providing a boat and you will get to cover a lot of water.  You can come back on your own later and fish the spots that appeal to you (unless of course access is limited). Mu

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Ah, the B-52s. I miss them no matter where I am. Great rock and roll dance music!

I was talking about the shot B-52 not the music.  I’m a blue grass man.  I had no idea that there was a band called the B-52. Vern

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Ah, the B-52s. I miss them no matter where I am. Great rock and roll dance music! I was talking about the shot B-52 not the music.  I’m a blue grass man.  I had no idea that there was a band called the B-52.

I knew you weren’t referring to the band, Vern ;^)

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 In fact, you can have seperate quarters away from the likes of Fortenberry, Waldo, Tripper, Wayno, and Jeffy Miller.  These types will corrupt you.

        you eat one little… wayno

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I did not know they had been shot ! TL MC "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Yeah, and they all copied their name from the famous USAF droopy-winged B-52, many motored sumbitch that could carry enough bombs to drop from here to there.  We fondly called it the BUF, ie: Big Ugly F*cker.  I’ve been retired now for *30* years and that big sucker is still flying in the AF inventory.  It’s gonna outlast me fer sure. Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ah, the B-52s. I miss them no matter where I am. Great rock and roll dance music! I was talking about the shot B-52 not the music.  I’m a blue grass man.  I had no idea that there was a band called the B-52. Vern

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Yeah, and they all copied their name from the famous USAF droopy-winged B-52, many motored sumbitch that could carry enough bombs to drop from here to there.  We fondly called it the BUF, ie: Big Ugly F*cker.  I’ve been retired now for *30* years and that big sucker is still flying in the AF inventory.  It’s gonna outlast me fer sure.

I grew up in Wichita watching those bad boys fly around at Boeing and McConnell (my dad worked on them at Boeing). Awesome plane. — Charlie…

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Frank Church writes: Yeah, and they all copied their name from the famous USAF droopy-winged B-52, many motored sumbitch that could carry enough bombs to drop from here to there.  We fondly called it the BUF, ie: Big Ugly F*cker.  I’ve been retired now for *30* years and that big sucker is still flying in the AF inventory.  It’s gonna outlast me fer sure.

Frank, I used to live within shouting distance of Westover AFB.  I can remember the B-47s taking off and landing.  But then came those bigger BUFs, the B-52 Speaking of droopy wings — the U-2 wasn’t exactly a stubby winged aircraft. One scared the hell out of me in Japan, landing without power, gliding about 100 feet off the ground, as I walked to work.  All I saw was a giant shadow whisking over me.  It was going into Atsugi Naval Air Station on the other side of the rice paddies. OBROFF:  There is probably still room for the Maine Clave next September. Great fishing, great food, great friends.  Consider it.  Fourteen attending so far. Dave L.

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I grew up in Wichita watching those bad boys fly around at Boeing and McConnell (my dad worked on them at Boeing). Awesome plane.

B-52’s flew in and out of Hanscom Field in the town I grew up in, to get outfitted with the latest black boxes that the Charles Stark Draper and Mitre Labs folks cooked up over there. Flight path to the only runway that’d take those big mf’s went right over our house, but that wasn’t close enough for me and my friends, so we’d ride our bikes out to the perimeter fence at the end of the safety zone and watch them big bastids swoop in and out. Awesome. It’s a miracle I can still hear anything… /daytripper

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of the safety zone and watch them big bastids swoop in and out. Awesome.

I saw one take off back in the 70s that must have been using water injectors and the whole deal; I don’t know what his angle of climb was but I was looking for the CONELRAD station on my dial<g. — Charlie…

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Awesome.

"…fryin’ chickens in the barnyard!" General "Buck" Turgidson

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<Snipped tribute to B-52’s & U-2’s.

Dave Years ago I used to work in the Oklahoma Panhandle which is pretty sparsely populated.  Unknown to me was the fact that there was a flyway for low altitude bombing runs that ran from Clayton, NM to somewhere in western OK.  I was driving down some dirt road trying to find a farmhouse when about 10 B-52’s flew over about 1,000 feet or less off the ground and at full bore.  These guys came one right after the other and just after you lost your  hearing , you could still feel to car and ground vibrate.  The F-111’s that came after them sounded like learjets.  This was when I started carrying toilet paper in my car.  You never know. DP

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I did not know they had been shot !

The planes? They were shot _at_, but they got out unscathed. Opt out == cop-out. What’s so hard to understand?

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 I was driving down some dirt road trying to find a farmhouse when about 10 B-52’s flew over about 1,000 feet or less off the ground and at full bore.  

The early B52’s had the tail gunner actually in the tail. When they modified the plane for low altitude operations they had to move the position to the flight deck after they almost killed one or two in test flights. — Charlie…

Response:

Yesterday I was searching the Internet for a guide in Ennis, Montana for the western conclave.  I thought it would be fun to pay for a day with a guide to familiarize me with the area before doing it alone.  I couldn’t find any in the Ennis area.  Yea, a few in Montana just not in the Ennis area. While in the middle of searching and getting discouraged the man in the brown truck knocked on my door. Remember the fly rod that had the tip snapped off in the car door?  Some suggested I contact the company and see if they would replace it.  I followed your suggestion and sent it off.  The UPS man brought it back yesterday.  Well, I thought he brought it back.  However, when I opened the box it was a completely different rod.  It was a nice and new rod without the river slime on the cork handle.  Cool! The UPS man asked me what it was and I told him the story.  I also told him that I’m going to Montana in July for a fly-fishing conclave.  I also told him that I was searching the Internet for a guide for a guide but couldn’t find one. He replied, "I don’t know what part of Montana your going.  But, if it’s near Ennis, my father in-law is a guide." I almost started laughing.  "Ennis!  That’s where were going," I said. He then informed me that his father in-law is currently in Las Vegas on vacation. What are the odds? To make a long story a little shorter, I talked to his father in-law.  His name is Bob Cleverley.  He’s currently retired but used to be a HS football coach.  He’s been a guide on the Madison River for over 15 years.  I think he said 17 years but not certain.  He has owned a fly shop in the past. However, running the shop, his guide service, and teaching at the local HS was to much for him so he got rid of the fly shop.  Now he’s retired.  How nice for him. Now back to the guide service, it’s a flat fee of $275 which includes transportation, a full day of fly-fishing, over 20 miles floating on the Madison in a 17 foot fiberglass drift-boat, food for the day, and all the local information a local lifetime fly-fisherman can provide.  The price is a flat fee per boat regardless of how many go.  However, only two fly-fisherman per boat.  He has three boats.  He also has other friends that provide guide service. I was hoping another ROFFian could split the price with me.  What I was thinking $150 each.  That would pay for the $275 fee and a $25 tip.  If the fishing is good I could tip him even more. I believe the western conclave is scheduled for July 21-31 in spite George’s desire for it to be around the 4th of July.  I will be taking 9 days off work.  Although, I’m driving and allowing 2 days up and 2 days back.  I have 2 options for my days off, the July18-26 or the July 25- Aug. 2.  That translates into my conclave days either July 21-24 or July 27-31.  I have to make that decision on the day my fly-fishing partner can take the guide service. Here it is, either a guide service on July 21 or July 27.  If you are interested on sharing a trip with me post it or send me an e-mail. Additionally, let me know what day is best for you.  I will schedule the trip.  I don’t have to put a deposit down at this point.  However, after the first of July if I need to cancel there is a $100 cancellation fee. Again, Bob Cleverley has three boats and can get more if needed.  The more ROFFians the better. Vern

Response:

Vern writes:

(lil snip) Since I’ve never been to a conclave before I don’t really know what goes on other than breakfast preparation in one’s BVDs, midnight fishing trips while hanging onto a wooden love, sleeping-in while others post to ROFF on their notebooks, lots of drinking and a lot more drinking, rowdy conversations, and really good fishing.  Can you please provide a standard description of a ROFF conclave so I know what to expect?  Warren’s not going to be the guide all ten day is he?

Vern, not to worry.  At an conclave, you can do just about as you please.  The organizers will have scouted out places to fish and will direct you to such places and perhaps even guide you seperately. There will probably be folks at the Western Clave who have fished those waters and they will help Warren in fishing assignments and guiding.  The main thing of any clave is to have fun fishing with buddies/friends, regardless how you met them.  The internet claves I have attended so far have been filled with juvenile antics, much joking, swearing, hard-assing, by a bunch of educated serious men on their way to go fly fishing. Stories about one’s bvds and night fishing etc. are bound to occur.  There will be more stories from the Western Clave and the Spring Fling for that matter. No one is forcing you to drink or smoke or stay up late. In fact, you can have seperate quarters away from the likes of Fortenberry, Waldo, Tripper, Wayno, and Jeffy Miller.  These types will corrupt you.  You could  hang around with Charlie Choc – go to bed early, wake up late, go fishing.  <g As I understand it, you would like to get to Ennis a day or so early and "scout" the place out, possibly even hire a guide for a day.  Arriving early and checking things out is ok, but I am sure Warren and the rest of the western roffians would be more than willing to help. Main thought here, Vern, is:  don’t worry about it.  You will be with friends. They may hard-ass ya, and joke with ya, but they love ya and will make sure you have a great time. I hope to fish with you.  I will have my grand-sons (15 and 16) with me. Dave L.

Response:

Since I’ve never been to a conclave before I don’t really know what goes on other than breakfast preparation in one’s BVDs, midnight fishing trips while hanging onto a wooden love, sleeping-in while others post to ROFF on their notebooks, lots of drinking and a lot more drinking, rowdy conversations, and really good fishing.  Can you please provide a standard description of a ROFF conclave so I know what to expect?

Given your opening paragraph, that’d be redundant. You nailed it! Warren’s not going to be the guide all ten day is he?

There should be at least a few people that have fished that area to allow the group to break up into smaller units. Nobody’s gonna want to fish the Madison for the entire duration – there are many other rivers to fish within 2 or 3 hours of Ennis. I should mention that I gave up alcohol and cigars around 3 to 4 years ago. I miss them at times, but I made a commitment and I can’t afford to break it.  If I do, I don’t think I could stop again.  I think I miss the cigars more than I do the B-52s, especially at the stream.

Ah, the B-52s. I miss them no matter where I am. Great rock and roll dance music! So, whatever description you provide, there’s no need to tempt me with explanations of liquid refreshment.

Normally I’d torture you by noting that you’re surely doomed to a week of depravity, moral turpitude, and Xtreme Liver Abuse. However, I’ll go easy on you and note that Le Duc Du Chocolate has escaped unscathed – repeatedly – with his facilities intact and his morals unmolested. Despite repeated attempts to torpedo same. I’m looking for a description of the fishing itself.  I only ask this because you said I don’t need pay $ for a guide on my first day. Additionally, I’ve never fished the Madison River.  I don’t know what to expect.  If others that have fished the Madison would be kind enough to describe what kind of river it is, I would be much appreciated.

The upper reaches – assuming the river below the Hebgen Lake hasn’t changed much – is a short set of small braids winding through the pucker brush. Short rod fishing works best there. These collect into a modest flow for about a mile if memory serves, then there’s a broad stretch (lake-ish) a few miles long – not really fishable on foot iirc – until you get below Rock Creek. Then you have about 10 miles of fishable water down to Kirby Ranch. From there down to Varney (about 25 miles I think) and beyond the river becomes broader and more boisterous – depending on how much water is coming down through a whole host of creeks – and the best (or at least easiest) fishing is from a drift boat. I’ve done the stretch from Kirby Ranch to the Varney bridge a few times in my life and caught some prodigiously large trout and white fish. There were lots of places to stop the boat and get out and wade gravel bars and cast to wonderful holes. The biggest trout I’ve ever hooked and lost was in the middle of that stretch. There was good fishing on foot along a lot of the river the last time I was out there – but that was before people started building goddamned houses along the banks and posting it, and of course the whirling disease has probably changed what’s in the river – so I’ll have to let others bring me up to date. But again, that’s just one river – and there are a handful of famous streams within 3 hours or so of Ennis. If this post doesn’t make much sense, it’s because I’m falling asleep after a long day.  It’s now 12:30 in Las Vegas.  So, please forgive any errors.

Wimp! It’s now 5:54 in Massachusetts and I’ve been up all night getting a newsletter published. Forget sleepin’ – it’d only make me feel even worse – so it’s direct-injected caffeine for me today! /daytripper (I’m getting too old for this shit!)

Response:

speaking of the western clave, where the hell is Warren?

He’s doing fine. I got an email from him a few days ago. Everything is on track for the Western Clave. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

You don’t need to pay hard-earned money for guide, Vern, Warren’s the guide. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Since I’ve never been to a conclave before I don’t really know what goes on other than breakfast preparation in one’s BVDs, midnight fishing trips while hanging onto a wooden love, sleeping-in while others post to ROFF on their notebooks, lots of drinking and a lot more drinking, rowdy conversations, and really good fishing.  Can you please provide a standard description of a ROFF conclave so I know what to expect?  Warren’s not going to be the guide all ten day is he? I should mention that I gave up alcohol and cigars around 3 to 4 years ago. I miss them at times, but I made a commitment and I can’t afford to break it.  If I do, I don’t think I could stop again.  I think I miss the cigars more than I do the B-52s, especially at the stream.  So, whatever description you provide, there’s no need to tempt me with explanations of liquid refreshment. I’m looking for a description of the fishing itself.  I only ask this because you said I don’t need pay $ for a guide on my first day. Additionally, I’ve never fished the Madison River.  I don’t know what to expect.  If others that have fished the Madison would be kind enough to describe what kind of river it is, I would be much appreciated. If this post doesn’t make much sense, it’s because I’m falling asleep after a long day.  It’s now 12:30 in Las Vegas.  So, please forgive any errors. Vern – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You don’t need to pay hard-earned money for guide, Vern, Warren’s the guide. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Probably sick of George dominating the news group. Big Dale

Response:

Probably sick of George dominating the news group. Big Dale

Big D, Have you been getting any ‘gills this winter? There’s a nice lake up here that has bass and gills in it. It also has yours and my name on it one afternoon in May. Stay loose big guy, Walt — Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com For Book & Print Auctions: http://www.amazon.com/seller/mariebooks Blue Ridge Book Gallery: http://www.bibliofind.com/cgi-bin/texis.exe/s/search/dhome.html?id=33… P.O. Box 5112, Banner Elk, NC 28604

Response:

speaking of the western clave, where the hell is Warren? — Levi Always do sober what you said you’d do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut. –Ernest Hemingway

According to Dave L. he’s been busy with hunting and his work. Darin

Response:

speaking of the western clave, where the hell is Warren? — Levi Always do sober what you said you’d do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut. –Ernest Hemingway

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Darin Minor writes: speaking of the western clave, where the hell is Warren? — Levi Always do sober what you said you’d do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut. –Ernest Hemingway According to Dave L. he’s been busy with hunting and his work. Darin

Yeah, but that was about two weeks ago that I heard from him.   Dave L.

Response:

Question:

Joe Fleischman sent it.  Joe sent the Fall Ball a little CARE package for the raffle.   I hope I get the "trio", and I will do my best to make sure the other one goes to the "appropriate" Clavester.  This is gonna be hysterical.   Thanks, Joe. Ya know, it just dawned on me, Joe:  I bet he *likes* it!! BWWWaaaaaahahahahahaha Dave L.

Response:

Joe Fleischman sent it.  Joe sent the Fall Ball a little CARE package for the raffle.   I hope I get the "trio", and I will do my best to make sure the other one goes to the "appropriate" Clavester.  This is gonna be hysterical.   Thanks, Joe. Ya know, it just dawned on me, Joe:  I bet he *likes* it!! BWWWaaaaaahahahahahaha

Now that you posted it, it’s too late to make it a "duet".  <g   And I want pictures. TL, Joe

Response:

Is there a pool for how many inches of rain will fall in the Smokies next week? — Charlie…

Response:

Joe F: <<Now that you posted it, it’s too late to make it a "duet".  <g   And I want pictures. Shhhhhhhoooot!  Duet!  Why didn’t *I* think of that. Devious Dave

Response:

Charlie Choc: <<Is there a pool for how many inches of rain will fall in the Smokies next week? No, but I will take the number 9. Dave

Response:

Charlie Choc: <<Is there a pool for how many inches of rain will fall in the Smokies next week? No, but I will take the number 9.

I was going to pick 4 (for Forty<g). As long as there’s no lightning either Thursday or Friday so I can get across the lake to Hazel I’ll be happy. — Charlie…

Response:

Can I get in on the Raffle, as a non attendee Tim Apple — The fishing is always good, It’s the catching that’s sometimes bad"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Joe Fleischman sent it.  Joe sent the Fall Ball a little CARE package for the raffle.   I hope I get the "trio", and I will do my best to make sure the other one goes to the "appropriate" Clavester.  This is gonna be hysterical.   Thanks, Joe. Ya know, it just dawned on me, Joe:  I bet he *likes* it!! BWWWaaaaaahahahahahaha Dave L.

Response:

How about if I donate a 55 gallon drum of scrap Bamboo to the Clave’s raffle?  I’m sure daytripper and lacourse would be the highest bidders. ; )  gol   (giggling out loud) basb (blowing a snot bubble)  gmak! (give me a kleenex!) : )))))))))))))   dme  (dabbing my eyes) Mr. G.

Response:

How about if I donate a 55 gallon drum of scrap Bamboo to the Clave’s raffle?  I’m sure daytripper and lacourse would be the highest bidders. ; )  gol   (giggling out loud) basb (blowing a snot bubble)  gmak! (give me a kleenex!) : )))))))))))))   dme  (dabbing my eyes) Mr. G.

no need to donate george, thar will be plenty of scrap bamboo present waldo — Ezflyfish.com http://www.ezflyfish.com BRBG http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gehrke writes: <<How about if I donate a 55 gallon drum of scrap Bamboo to the Clave’s raffle?  I’m sure daytripper and lacourse would be the highest bidders. You wouldn’t want to do that, George.  What the hell would you make your  bamboo rods out of.  I’ve seen a couple of them — they looked like they were made from scrap bamboo.  d;0)   Remember, George, you should not re-use numbers 6, 11, and 12.  Those were terrible.  Plus the others that have been returned.  What was your failure rate, George — 20%?     I sure am glad you aren’t building airplanes, George.   d;0)  ( < my hat on backwards, George.)  LOL LaCourse

LaCourse.  They would just prove how , biased, unthinking, wrong opinionated, ex-Navy, burnt out old foggie you really are. Those fly rods were beautiful   fly rods.  Just because you say they weren’t doesn’t make it so pal.  So go make a monkey out of yourself somewhere else.  I’m not your piece of meat.  I don’t think you will ever change, no matter what proof might reveal itself one day regarding your exaggerations.   Get a life LaCourse. Mr. G. http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

I have some of Mike’s Flies and they are the finest I have ever seen.  The person who gets them will have flies tied by a real master. Ernie Harrison See Ernie’s Fly-Fishing Stuff:   http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Yet another truck stopped at my residence — this one a little white and blue one, stamped with U.S. Mail. There is going to be one joyful roffer at the Fall Ball.  Mike Connor’s package arrived safely.  It is a fly box with seventy (70!) flies.  I haven’t opened it – it has shrink-wrap-like material around it -, but I can see what looks like some Partridge and Orange and either a  Roayal Coachman or Royal Wulff.  Whoever wins this also gets a letter from Mike, with an appropriate poem, and it *is* suitable for framing. Mike has out-done himself again.  He is doing well and gives his warm regards to all of us. Dave L.

Response:

Mike has out-done himself again.  He is doing well and gives his warm regards to all of us.

That sure beats the hell out of what I sent you.  :-)   Make sure my name is in the hat for that one! TL, Joe

Response:

Yet another truck stopped at my residence — this one a little white and blue one, stamped with U.S. Mail.   There is going to be one joyful roffer at the Fall Ball.  Mike Connor’s package arrived safely.  It is a fly box with seventy (70!) flies.  I haven’t opened it – it has shrink-wrap-like material around it -, but I can see what looks like some Partridge and Orange and either a  Roayal Coachman or Royal Wulff.  Whoever wins this also gets a letter from Mike, with an appropriate poem, and it *is* suitable for framing. Mike has out-done himself again.  He is doing well and gives his warm regards to all of us. Dave L.

Response:

Ernie Harrison: Ernie, I can’t filter anyone out.  My isp will allow it and provides for it, but *I* won’t do it.  I’ve never turned my back on anything, and I won’t now.  If George lies, I will reply.  If he shuts up, so will I.  I have asked him to take it to e-mail, but he will not. Believe me, I am not answering most of his posts.  Be well….. Dave L.

Response:

George: <<No thank you LaCourse.  I would receive the same thing I did last year. nothing. That’s because you didn’t want it.  Waldo still has it.  He could easily send it to you.  Why don’t you ask him to?  d;0) LaCourse

Response:

George: pieces.  You make much to do about nothing, as usual daytripper.  You really need to relax a little more. George, we were at peace.  Everything was going well, and then you start another fight.  When Tripper and I respond, you become incensed.  Change your underwear, Georgie.  I am sure the purple stains from eating so many sour grapes are now visible. LaCourse

Response:

hold on now, ya’ll…us southern folks are quite fond of bamboo tomato stakes, and i’d be happy to receive the scrap bamboo.  BTW, i’m quite happy with my Happy Hooker Bastard rod, with whatever defects or flaws it might have…and, i’m planning on using it on Hazel Creek, and maybe even for whippin one of those damn horse’s into shape for the ride up the road to nowhere… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How about if I donate a 55 gallon drum of scrap Bamboo to the Clave’s raffle?  I’m sure daytripper and lacourse would be the highest bidders. You’re probably right: neither Dave nor I would bid one red cent, while others would be ASKING for money to toss the works in the dumpster… /daytripper

Response:

Dave,    What you say is true,  but when you respond to his crap it comes through my filter and then I have a choice of filtering the subject or your name, neither of which I want to do.  I already have so many subjects filtered out my hard drive is filling up.  Why not just filter him out and we can both have some peace. Ernie Harrison See Ernie’s Fly-Fishing Stuff:   http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -George: pieces.  You make much to do about nothing, as usual daytripper.  You really need to relax a little more. George, we were at peace.  Everything was going well, and then you start another fight.  When Tripper and I respond, you become incensed.  Change your underwear, Georgie.  I am sure the purple stains from eating so many sour grapes are now visible. LaCourse

Response:

Forgetfull Tim Apple writes:

<<Can I get in on the Raffle, as a non attendee <g  You already are, Tim.  d;0) Dave

Response:

Gehrke writes:

<<How about if I donate a 55 gallon drum of scrap Bamboo to the Clave’s raffle?  I’m sure daytripper and lacourse would be the highest bidders. You wouldn’t want to do that, George.  What the hell would you make your  bamboo rods out of.  I’ve seen a couple of them — they looked like they were made from scrap bamboo.  d;0)   Remember, George, you should not re-use numbers 6, 11, and 12.  Those were terrible.  Plus the others that have been returned.  What was your failure rate, George — 20%?     I sure am glad you aren’t building airplanes, George.   d;0)  ( < my hat on backwards, George.)  LOL LaCourse

Response:

Oh, forgot to add, George: It is a free raffle, no bidding.  Just a bunch of guys who wanna get together and fish and have a good time.  We all bring a little something and throw it in the pot and then Waldo draws names out of a hat.  We had a blast last May — oh, that’s right, you weren’t there, were you?  Hey, but you did win something in the "non- attendee" raffle.  You want I should add your name again this year, George.   d;0) LaCourse

Response:

no need to donate george, thar will be plenty of scrap bamboo present waldo

; )

Response:

How about if I donate a 55 gallon drum of scrap Bamboo to the Clave’s raffle?  I’m sure daytripper and lacourse would be the highest bidders.

You’re probably right: neither Dave nor I would bid one red cent, while others would be ASKING for money to toss the works in the dumpster… /daytripper

Response:

How about if I donate a 55 gallon drum of scrap Bamboo to the Clave’s raffle?  I’m sure daytripper and lacourse would be the highest bidders. You’re probably right: neither Dave nor I would bid one red cent, while others would be ASKING for money to toss the works in the dumpster… /daytripper

pieces.  You make much to do about nothing, as usual daytripper.  You really need to relax a little more. Mr. G.

Response:

Oh, forgot to add, George: It is a free raffle, no bidding.  Just a bunch of guys who wanna get together and fish and have a good time.  We all bring a little something and throw it in the pot and then Waldo draws names out of a hat.  We had a blast last May — oh, that’s right, you weren’t there, were you?  Hey, but you did win something in the "non- attendee" raffle.  You want I should add your name again this year, George.   d;0) LaCourse

_______  No thank you LaCourse.  I would receive the same thing I did last year. nothing. Mr.G.

Response:

Question:

A big "thanks"to the guys who have so readily replied to my request for help with some very sound advice. I really appreciate your words of wisdom and will be endeavouring to put them into practice. I’m also impressed with this forum – so much response so quickly! Regards, Brian Meredith Nelson New Zealand — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email — always at Talkway.

Response:

Brian: Two other thoughts on the situation. 1.  Another common way to spook fish in NZ is with your line itself.  You need to make sure that your leader is long enough — generally we fished with 12-15 foot leaders.  They’re a bitch to cast, but necessary.  Ideally, you want to put the fly 6 feet in front of the fish (though depending on depth, you may need more), so you still have 6 or 8 feet of leader behind the fish before it attaches to your fly line. 2.  Generally NZ fish aren’t particularly "leader shy", but in slow moving, crystal clear water they may see your tippet.  Generally we would fish with 3x fluorocarbon tippet, but in the situation you describe, I might be tempted to put on a 4x or even 5x fluorocarbon.  That’s only a 4 lbs. breaking strength, but might be necessary. Keep in mind that the deeper the fish, in smooth water, the wider his angle of view.  This is counter intuitive:  the fish sees MORE from a deep lie than from a shallow lie.  So if you’d been approaching fish successfully in shallow water, and judged how close you could get from that, you may get too close.  I made that mistake myself stalking a 10 lbs.+ brown cruising a regular beat in a deep hole, to my everlasting regret.  I got where I thought it would be safe, but he had stopped cruising. Also, you’ve got to stay much further back from a fish in smooth water than in roily water.  A fish lying deep in smooth water may be literally impossible to catch.  E.g. if you have to cast well in front, in order to give time for the nymph to sink, any cast that would present the fly properly would "line" the fish.  Your only hope in that kind of situation would be to wait for the wind to riffle the surface of the water.  Then you might just get a cast in. Michael — www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/3363

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some advice for a novice please? I am fortunate to live in New Zealand’s South Island where there are some of theworld’s most renowned trout waters. They are populated mostly by brown trout which are notoriously difficult to catch. This pat weekend I was fishing the source of the Gowan River as it emerges from lake Rotoiti in the Nelson lakes national Park. I spotted my fish, a beautiful looking brown sitting on station in crystal clear and slow moving water. I stalked him with great care and there followed an hour of some of my most careful casting, some of which (not all by any means!) placed my size 6 pheasant tail nymph gently upstream of his mouth before drifting majestically over him. And nothing. He did not move. He did not strike. He just stayed on station and ignored that nymph and the four other varieties I tried. So what was I doing wrong? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. BrianM — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email — always at Talkway.

Response:

<< stalked him with great care and there followed an hour of some of my most careful casting, some of which (not all by any means!) placed my size 6 pheasant tail nymph gently upstream Egads, Brian!  A size *6* pheasant tail

        i figured (fugured?) that size 6 was a typo. wayno

Response:

brianm wrote Some advice for a novice please?

[wily trout story snipped] Next time you see a big fish on station in ultra clear, smooth water, try observing him (without him observing you) for a while to see how he is feeding.  Is he on the bottom?  Just below the surface but never breaking it?  Occasionally sipping? Also, try taking a little mesh net with you to see what’s in the water. Those little nets they sell for tropical fish aquariums work pretty good, but for faster results, try 2-3 square feet of nylon mesh (you can get at any hardware store).  It’s a little cumbersome but at worst, you’ll get an interesting cross section of some of the insects in the water and at best, you just might have a pattern in your box. —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

<<even peter charles has failed to catch a fish; or, at least, legend would have it that way. It is true.  I have witnessed it.  Of course Peter had gotten into the Sleeman’s and had mistaken the broom in the cabin for his fly rod. Dave LaCourse

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This pat weekend I was fishing the source of the Gowan River as it emerges from lake Rotoiti in the Nelson lakes national Park. I spotted my fish, a beautiful looking brown sitting on station in crystal clear and slow moving water. I stalked him with great care and there followed an hour of some of my most careful casting, some of which (not all by any means!) placed my size 6 pheasant tail nymph gently upstream of his mouth before drifting majestically over him. And nothing. He did not move. He did not strike. He just stayed on station and ignored that nymph and the four other varieties I tried. So what was I doing wrong? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

I’ve had the good fortune to fish the South Island in two trips, and I envy your location. I agree with Dave that a size six may be too big.  However NZ nymphs do tend to the larger sizes — mostly 10-14 in my experience (rarely as small as 16, but 6 is HUGE).  You should check with local anglers/shops for advice. Several other points: Often, if the fish is in a comfortable, deep lie, it will not move even if spooked.  So you could easily have spooked it and not realized it.   Besides actually seeing you, if it was a bright sunny day, you could have spooked it with a reflection or a shadow.  Do you have a silver or gold reel?  Other silver metal that might flash?  Even black or dark colors, if glossy, can send a reflection on a bright sunny day that will put off a wary NZ trout. Shadows are especially treacherous if the sun is low and behind you.  Your body and  rod will then cast a shadow upstream. It’s actually very hard to cast lines near a wild NZ trout for an hour without spooking it.  So my guess would be the trout was spooked and was just holding its lie. Also, were there other fishermen around?  YOU might not have spooked it, but someone could have fished to it before you showed up.  This is particularly likely if the fish is in an obvious lie (as this one seems to be). Also, NZ fish will rarely go for a fly pattern once refused.  So, for example, if it saw the PT and decided not to take it (say because you dragged it) you MUST change patterns.  The fish may not have been spooked, simply keyed into some other fly. In general, if you’re pretty sure you covered a NZ fish with a fly once, and it doesn’t take, you should change flies immediately.  (The art is to be sure you’ve covered the fish — that comes with experience.  I had a day on a small stream in NZ where the fish would only take if the fly was DIRECTLY on their nose.  I mean six inches off, which normally is fine, would not induce a strike.  You had to keep casting until you got it right). But generally, there’s no point in chucking the same fly over and over again.  If you’re sure you’ve covered a fish, you should change flies. Again, check with your local shop.  But cased caddis, brassies, etc. might draw a strike that a PT wouldn’t.  It’s not unusual to try 4 or 5 different patterns, and occasionally you can draw a strike on the 5th pattern.  Keep in mind that every time you cast to a NZ fish, you risk spooking him.  So try to make very cast count.  If you think you’ve covered the fish, change flies.  Don’t screw around. If you’re working a fish without any luck, stop after a few casts and watch it.  If it hasn’t been spooked, you should be able to see it nymphing — occasional left or right swings to take a fly.  If it’s glued to a spot without moving, it’s likely spooked.  Waiting a few minutes may let the fish go back on the feed, assuming it wasn’t badly spooked. When all else fails, chuck a Wooly Bugger upstream and across, and strip it by his nose.  I’ve never actually had it work, but I have had totally unresponsive fish at least follow the fly before refusing it.  One of these days, I’m sure, it will work. Michael — www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/3363 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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<< stalked him with great care and there followed an hour of some of my most careful casting, some of which (not all by any means!) placed my size 6 pheasant tail nymph gently upstream Egads, Brian!  A size *6* pheasant tail?  I should think the fish would be more comfortable ingesting a size 14 -18 ptail.  I may be missing something here, but I have never seen a ptail tied larger than a size 12.  What size tippet did you have? A #6 hook would equate to a 1X or 2X tippet. Big is not necessarily always "better", Brian. Try smaller nymphs, smaller tippet (maybe even fluorocarbon). Of course a size 2X tippet with a #6 pheasant tail would make a wonderful trolling machine.   d;0)  You ain’t trollin’, are you, Brian?     <G Dave LaCourse

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some advice for a novice please? I stalked him with great care and there followed an hour of some of my most careful casting, some of which (not all by any means!) placed my size 6 pheasant tail nymph gently upstream of his mouth before drifting majestically over him. And nothing. He did not move. He did not strike. He just stayed on station and ignored that nymph and the four other varieties I tried. So what was I doing wrong? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. BrianM

    *assuming you didn’t actually spook him*…let me repeat that: *assuming you didn’t actually spook him*, then you were doing *nothing* wrong.  you were offering fake food to an animal that didn’t want to eat. in short, you were "fishing".  while the same anomaly will continue to occur throughout your fishing career, take heart:  it is a noble endeavor, and your occassional failures make you part of an ever-growing club.     even peter charles has failed to catch a fish; or, at least, legend would have it that way. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email — always at Talkway.

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Some advice for a novice please? I am fortunate to live in New Zealand’s South Island where there are some of theworld’s most renowned trout waters. They are populated mostly by brown trout which are notoriously difficult to catch. This pat weekend I was fishing the source of the Gowan River as it emerges from lake Rotoiti in the Nelson lakes national Park. I spotted my fish, a beautiful looking brown sitting on station in crystal clear and slow moving water. I stalked him with great care and there followed an hour of some of my most careful casting, some of which (not all by any means!) placed my size 6 pheasant tail nymph gently upstream of his mouth before drifting majestically over him. And nothing. He did not move. He did not strike. He just stayed on station and ignored that nymph and the four other varieties I tried. So what was I doing wrong? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. BrianM — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email — always at Talkway.

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Question:

Try rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Sorry can’t help you with the hatch.

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: Folks, : Is there a flyfishing newsgroup? If so, would most appreciate the : address. I can’t seem to get my server to list all the available groups. : Thanks and would really appreciate e-mail. : BTW, anyone know what kind of hatch might be going on at a subalpine : lake (9,000) in western Montana? This for a novel I’m writing. rec.outdoors.fishing.fly rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying

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Folks, Is there a flyfishing newsgroup? If so, would most appreciate the address. I can’t seem to get my server to list all the available groups. Thanks and would really appreciate e-mail. BTW, anyone know what kind of hatch might be going on at a subalpine lake (9,000) in western Montana? This for a novel I’m writing.

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Question:

Was wondering if anyone heard about a CD rom for Saltwater fly tying  that was coming out. I thought I heard the company that makes  Tying flies for trout Cd is making a Saltwater version.                                            appreciate any info,                                              BillSorry can’t help Bill, but while on sorta the same subject…

 Could someone advise on what might be available on CD-ROM with a fly-fishing flavor. I have heard of some, but suggestions are always welcome. Jay

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A new CD "Tying Flies for Saltwater" is being introduced at the Denver "Fly Tackle Dealers" trade show later this week. See also:

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Question:

In rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Yeah Mark, In a recent "Fly Fisherman" there was an article on Conejos. I’m not sure which month though as I can’t find it now. Anyway, look around. It was very recent.

Great  I guess I can kiss one of my favorite secrets goodbye. I’ve fished the Conejos since I was a little tike with my grandfather.

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Can anyone tell me about from recent experience? Thanks, Mark Wiebelhaus Yeah Mark, In a recent "Fly Fisherman" there was an article on Conejos. I’m not sure which month though as I can’t find it now. Anyway, look around. It was very recent. Cliff

July Issue

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Yeah Mark, In a recent "Fly Fisherman" there was an article on Conejos. I’m not sure which month though as I can’t find it now. Anyway, look around. It was very recent. Great  I guess I can kiss one of my favorite secrets goodbye. I’ve fished the Conejos since I was a little tike with my grandfather. It’s not that bad.  The Conejos has lots of fishable water, and there are better fishing spots in the higher streams, anyway.  I doubt that people will flock to Conejos County anyway, as it is not on the way to anywhere, and pretty far from a major metropolitan area.

Like the  uh, San Juan ? or the uh, Green ? or the uh, North Platte ? or the uh, Bighorn ? I think your favorite secret is safe for the time being.

No it’s not. It is under attack. TimW

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Sure.  I did it last month and had a blast! You can read a more extended description at the following URL:

I enjoyed reading your story.  We used to stay at Magote Meadows too. Grandpa had a travel trailer and we stayed in the RV park there.  My grandfather fished that river every summer from the early 70s until he died 2 years ago, and he was preparing to go back even then.  I have some of the best memories of my life up there. Bruce Wedding

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Mark: for the latest fishing conditions on the Conejos check www.thereellife.com/reellife/ Manuel Monasterio The Reel Life

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Can anyone tell me about from recent experience?                                 Thanks, Mark Wiebelhaus

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Can anyone tell me about from recent experience?                             Thanks, Mark Wiebelhaus

Yeah Mark, In a recent "Fly Fisherman" there was an article on Conejos. I’m not sure which month though as I can’t find it now. Anyway, look around. It was very recent. Cliff

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Question:

I will be in the Saguenay-Lac Saint-Jean area of Quebec Canada in the 3rd week of June.  We will be fishing rivers and lakes(Lac Ha!Ha!) Any advice on flies, tippet sizes, and presentation for Quebec brook trout would be most appreciated.

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I will be in the Saguenay-Lac Saint-Jean area of Quebec Canada in the 3rd week of June.  We will be fishing rivers and lakes(Lac Ha!Ha!) Any advice on flies, tippet sizes, and presentation for Quebec brook trout would be most appreciated.

Dwight: The last time I fished the lake (hmmm – 5 years ago) the challenge was to find a fly that the brookies *wouldn’t* take! Four rods averaged close to 50 fish-on per day for the time we were up there, with the average size brookie around 2lbs, and the largest close to 5lbs. Most fish were taken in the late afternoon on dries of just about *any* style and size. For the most part these fish were not shy (guess that’s obvious) and I was using 5X and 6X tippets (depending on fly size) on 9 foot leaders… I’ve also fished many of the other (smaller) lakes in the Mistassini Reserve – there’s some great pike fishing up there (wire bite-guards were a must!) so if you get bored with the brookies there are other attractions worth going for… Have a great trip up there! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.    Alpha Server Engineering  < <           "Read this and nobody gets hurt"           < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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Question:

Can you please expand on the light colored clothing/lyme disease comment.  Does it help you spot ticks and pick them off before they bite?

As a kid in Maryland, I was told ticks prefer darker colors.  I suppose the camaflouge theory kicks in. Thomas Gilg

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Black Flies??? They are attracted to bright/dark colors and anything that has scent. Some people get more bit than others. Taking vitamin B suppose  to help reduce the # of bites. Clothes should be washed with non-scented soap. Besides Deet, you can put baby oil on you skin which drowns the flies (good for suntanning). By July, they are pretty much gone. Oh ya, make sure you socks go over you pants. Put Deek around the shirt near your belt. they love to crawl in!!! I use to work in the Wawa area for 3 summers. The 3rd summer I got bit maybe 4/5 times for working 7 weeks in the bush plating trees compared to 30/40 the first summer. And the bites healed much quicker the 3rd summer (some sort of ammune system). I’ve seen indians walk aorund with no protection and not get bit. We’re talking about 10,000 black files swarming aroung your head while you work. I use to spray Deet on my hard hat and it would kill 1,000 flies a day. When people complain about a few black flies, I say it is nothing…

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| |  DW 3.  Use insect repellant.  DEET is still the best, although questions |  DW about its safety for long term exposure have been raised.  I suggest a |  DW spray or pump format for two reasons.  First, you can spray clothing |  DW around where they are going to land and crawl and thus keep them off. |  DW Second, you can keep the palms of your hands relatively clean of the |  DW stuff – it will remove the paint from a pencil in a day of use and |  DW likely has a similarly disturbing effect on fine rod finishes, |  DW fly-lines, painted lures etc.  Be sure to spray INSIDE your clothing |  DW in the areas they are likely to try to enter (neck, cuffs, ankles or |  DW whatever) | |  I never use DEET based products because of what it does to lines.  I prefer The notion that DEET weakens mono fishing line has been scientificily disproved in a conclusive experiment by my daughter for a science fair experiment.  She exposed lengths of stren to a number of substances for a period of time in excess of a day and measured the breaking strength.  The substances included gasoline, outboard motor oil, DEET, bourbon, and water.  The only one that weakened the line was water.   Unfortunately the only people who looked at her exhibit were guys wearing camo and there weren’t to many of those.   |  vinegar because it works just as well and doesn’t weaken mono.  As for |  wearing light coloured clothing it is more important for the prevention of |  lyme disease, but the fact that the black flies prefer darker colours |  doesn’t hurt. | | ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 | — | | — Del Cecchi  

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| |  DW 3.  Use insect repellant.  DEET is still the best, although questions |  DW about its safety for long term exposure have been raised.  I suggest a |  DW spray or pump format for two reasons.  First, you can spray clothing |  DW around where they are going to land and crawl and thus keep them off. |  DW Second, you can keep the palms of your hands relatively clean of the |  DW stuff – it will remove the paint from a pencil in a day of use and |  DW likely has a similarly disturbing effect on fine rod finishes, |  DW fly-lines, painted lures etc.  Be sure to spray INSIDE your clothing |  DW in the areas they are likely to try to enter (neck, cuffs, ankles or |  DW whatever) | |  I never use DEET based products because of what it does to lines.  I prefer |  vinegar because it works just as well and doesn’t weaken mono.  As for |  wearing light coloured clothing it is more important for the prevention of |  lyme disease, but the fact that the black flies prefer darker colours |  doesn’t hurt. | Peter, Can you please expand on the light colored clothing/lyme disease comment.  Does it help you spot ticks and pick them off before they bite?                         -Pat.

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 DW 3.  Use insect repellant.  DEET is still the best, although questions  DW about its safety for long term exposure have been raised.  I suggest a  DW spray or pump format for two reasons.  First, you can spray clothing  DW around where they are going to land and crawl and thus keep them off.  DW Second, you can keep the palms of your hands relatively clean of the  DW stuff – it will remove the paint from a pencil in a day of use and  DW likely has a similarly disturbing effect on fine rod finishes,  DW fly-lines, painted lures etc.  Be sure to spray INSIDE your clothing  DW in the areas they are likely to try to enter (neck, cuffs, ankles or  DW whatever)  I never use DEET based products because of what it does to lines.  I prefer  vinegar because it works just as well and doesn’t weaken mono.  As for  wearing light coloured clothing it is more important for the prevention of  lyme disease, but the fact that the black flies prefer darker colours  doesn’t hurt. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 —

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– …  I was wondering if indeed the black – flies are going to be a problem? and if they are, what is the best – way to prepare for them. In my career in field geology I have had many close encounters with black flies and, while not claiming to be a total expert, can offer the following advice. Black flies attack by crawling around on your clothes until finding an entry point, or landing directly on skin then crawling around.  They tend to bite where their exploration is stopped by restrictions such as a belt, top of socks, hat brim etc.   This modus operandi should be kept in mind when designing your defences. 1.  Wear clothing with a minimum of entry points – no loose cuffs, tuck pants into socks, wear a snug T-shirt under your regular bush shirt, no stylishly ripped jeans. 2.  Keep clothing as light a colour as possible – they love dark colours, especially blue denim, and will land preferentially on those wearing darker clothes.  (This one is often not easy on longer trips if laundry facilities are not handy and the bush is dirty.) 3.  Use insect repellant.  DEET is still the best, although questions about its safety for long term exposure have been raised.  I suggest a spray or pump format for two reasons.  First, you can spray clothing around where they are going to land and crawl and thus keep them off. Second, you can keep the palms of your hands relatively clean of the stuff – it will remove the paint from a pencil in a day of use and likely has a similarly disturbing effect on fine rod finishes, fly-lines, painted lures etc.  Be sure to spray INSIDE your clothing in the areas they are likely to try to enter (neck, cuffs, ankles or whatever) 4.  Electronic repellants (ultrasonic etc) DO NOT WORK ON REAL, WILD BLACKFLIES.  If you want to try them out be sure you have DEET for emergency backup when you discover this for yourself. 5.  By July they may have thinned out a bit, but will certainly be out in force in evenings and still days.  Deer flies are more of a nuisance on hot sunny days but they do not care about repellant so don’t waste it on them.  (They are slow enough to catch and crunch by hand.) 6. Above all, remember to have fun.  No matter how bad the flies have been in my experience, when I look back to all the trips it is not the flies my mind conjures up when pulling out memories.  They are a large frustration at the time, but you will forget them (until next time) as long as you don’t get physically ill from an overdose.  This only happens to little kids who don’t put on any repellant at all and have a small body size to absorb the toxins. Have a good trip. (The worst flies I ever met were NOT in the Sault Ste Marie area at all, BTW.) Regards…Dennis Waddington —

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