strippers in the surf?? | Fly Fishing | Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki

Question:

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace. As enforcement by the government is almost nonexistant, that shouldn’t be surprising. These common practices do constitute theft in anyone’s book.

Obviously, you’ve never spent any time in eastern Montana where a lot of grazing is done on BLM. I can recall many times having the BLM officer who monitors the grazing permits in our area come around to check grass conditions, number of cattle, water hole conditions, whether or not the ranchers are pulling there cows off public ground at the designated time, etc., etc., etc. I also know of ranchers (not many, though) who lost their grazing permits (and they should) for not following the stipulated conditions on their permit. This same scenario (the proper management of grazing permits) happens all across the American West on both National Forest System Lands and Bureau of Land Management lands. You, sir, are clueless. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

FISHING RELATED POST?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re getting the lower price right now. Jesus why do I even bother. christ. I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked. You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G. You never met a cattleman, period. —

Response:

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.

Brian D. Nelson responded: I can recall many times having the BLM officer who monitors the grazing permits … I also know of ranchers (not many, though) who lost their grazing permits … You, sir, are clueless.

Across the west you’ll find varying compliance with grazing permits. Ditto logging laws and so on. I regularily volunteer to help with multi-agency state/federal fish surveys in eastern Oregon, and it is not uncommon to find cattle grazing well outside their permitted range. In one case we were surveying for bull trout in a remote backcountry area where grazing permits had been eliminated several years before, and yet we still found cattle and signs of regular grazing activity *inside the former and still-fenced allotments*. Some of the agency folks were suppose to followup on that discovery. Thomas Gilg

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eliminated several years before, and yet we still found cattle and signs of regular grazing activity *inside the former and still-fenced allotments*. Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.

I’m sure there are instances of illegal activity such as you described. However, from my experience, I don’t believe that these instances are "commonplace". — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

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Even if they are, that just means more money needs to be spent on enforcing the current restrictions, not coming up with more.

And sadly the folks breaking the law are the same ones against any additional government enforcement of the law. Thomas Gilg

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George– This is Cindy… Brian’s wife writing now. I cannot believe your comments regarding ranchers/cattlemen ripping off the consumer. I grew up in Eastern Montana on a small ranch. My father received 70-90 cents per pound for his calves sold every fall. This fall the price given to cattlemen for their calves is still 70-75 cents per pound. Not much of a raise over the past 20 years.

snipped: Just don’t like cattle on my Federal Lands stealing habitat that belongs to the American People’s wildlife inventories. Cattle destroy much too much and are a financially bankrupting entity that needs to be removed from all our outdoor recreational lands. George Gehrke

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Just don’t like cattle on my Federal Lands stealing habitat that belongs to the American People’s wildlife inventories. Cattle destroy much too much and are a financially bankrupting entity that needs to be removed from all our outdoor recreational lands.

The American People’s wildlife inventories are not starving nor do they lack a home. So what I hear you saying is that multiple use on our public lands actually equates to ONLY recreation. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop. When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now. Jesus why do I even bother. christ. I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked. You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G. You don’t have to like them, you have that right, but they are not stealing anything. As long as they have grazing permits it is legal.

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace. As enforcement by the government is almost nonexistant, that shouldn’t be surprising. These common practices do constitute theft in anyone’s book. Jon

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When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose.

Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop. When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G.

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Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop. When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past?

Boy, George, are you living in the netherworld if you think ranchers have ANY influence on the retail price of beef. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

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What’s to do with FISHING anyways?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Boy, George, are you living in the netherworld if you think ranchers have ANY influence on the retail price of beef. What, are you suggesting that both ends are getting screwed by the large corporations in the middle? How un-American! Jon.

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When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop. When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now. Jesus why do I even bother.

christ. I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked. You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop. When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now. Jesus why do I even bother. christ. I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked. You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G.

You don’t have to like them, you have that right, but they are not stealing anything. As long as they have grazing permits it is legal.

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I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked. You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother?

In this country, you are entitled to your own opinion…. even when it’s an incorrect one. Maybe if you’d actually get out there and meet a real cattleman, you’d change your tune. George– This is Cindy… Brian’s wife writing now. I cannot believe your comments regarding ranchers/cattlemen ripping off the consumer. I grew up in Eastern Montana on a small ranch. My father received 70-90 cents per pound for his calves sold every fall. This fall the price given to cattlemen for their calves is still 70-75 cents per pound. Not much of a raise over the past 20 years. Your accusations against the ranchers holds no water. You are basically talking out of your rear-end. If you would do some research and cared about your country, you would see that the family ranches are unable to support their families. Any help we can give the ranchers in the use of public lands is money put back into our economy and assistance to families who are trying to make a living providing food for your table. And just in case you are a vegetarian, don’t forget those ranchers who graze cattle on public land can then use the land they own to grow grain and barley for your bread. Don’t be such a twit. Boy, George… did you ever step in it!! When Cindy reads over my shoulder and kicks me off the keyboard…. well, you get the drift. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

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I was listening to a recent NPR program, discussing the problems of depopulation in rural communities back east – sorry, can’t remember the exact state, possibly one of the Dakotas. The program talked about how more people are getting college education and moving away to city jobs, leaving rural life. As a result some farmers are converting their land back to prairie. What little I know of the Eastern states, I’d guess this is some pretty decent farm land being lost. I also recently read about farm land in Wisconsin being converted back to forest. I know that here in the Southwest, we are enduring one of the worst droughts ever. Phoenix has had just 2.24 inches of rain this year, and may get no more rain until February or March. People are leaving the East and moving out West in huge numbers, and so people & agriculture are competing for many natural resources. So, it doesn’t sound so bad to me, when "Hard-line environmentalists" are simply helping to maximize the reward to the taxpayers, from the business use of Federal land. In a free market economy the cost for federal grazing rights should b e"all the market will bear". I know that there is an argument that this policy will reduce domestic beef production & increase imports. Well……perhaps we should consider the most efficient way this country feeds its’self. As a taxpayer and an eater, I want the cheapest (safe) beef I can get. This allows me to spend more of my income on other (US-made) products. It’s a tough life being a farmer. My grandfather was a successful farmer in England. He changed & correctly predicted the trends and made a profit – he didn’t need subsidies. He changed a farm that was widely diversified (sugarbeet, chickens, barley & milk, were just some of the products) to a farm that was specialized – he was one of the first in the area to see the demand for oil seed rape. As a farmer it doesn’t seem fair that a successful way of life is being changed. But all forms of business change over time – including farming.

Question:

Blow Me! Op

I think I’ll pass. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s interesting to me how ROFF has redefined the word "whine." Roff defines "whine" as a criticism of Roff. No other posts, criticisms, arguments etc. are ever labelled as "whining". Mark, I personally think that what you say is legitimate. It’s more on topic than most posts and IMO, your observation is accurate. If things run true to form, your post will start a flame war and unfortunately and ironically it will now be your turn to get flamed. Stay Tough Willi

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a pretty new subscriber to this newsgroup, and I’ve already managed to have my fill of a couple characters on here. One guy posts something, and one or two others respond with only assanine, sophomoric bullshit. If you want to flame each other, and play your childish little games, do so through email. I don’t know why the hell a couple of you feel the compelling need to act like a jackass with another member, and I really don’t give a damn. Grow up and act like adults. You guys know who I’m talking about, and the people know who they are. The constant little remarks and jabs get sick of reading. It’s bad enough that one has to wade through spam on these newsgroups, but then to have members flaming others at every little chance they get is stupid. If you really can’t reply to someone with at least a bit of civilness, don’t bother replying at all. Saves everyone else the time wasted on adding you to a killfile. To everyone else on here: Thanks for being adults. Tight lines.

Yeah. <puffing up chest You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. Messing up a perfectly good newsgroup so that Mr. McKenzie can’t enjoy it. Oh wait a minute. On second thought… Fuckthat whining, bowlegged, shit-eating, cock-guzzling, limp-dicked, ass-munching, no-tooth-having, fart-knocking, scotch-spilling, llama-fucking, foreskin-gobbling, chickenshit, redneck, po-dunk, meshugga, doodoo head. Joshua

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If you don’t like what some people post, killfile them and don’t read them, don’t freakin’ whine. Pathetic. Is some other dope gonna post another silly whine?

It’s interesting to me how ROFF has redefined the word "whine." Roff defines "whine" as a criticism of Roff. No other posts, criticisms, arguments etc. are ever labelled as "whining". Mark, I personally think that what you say is legitimate. It’s more on topic than most posts and IMO, your observation is accurate. If things run true to form, your post will start a flame war and unfortunately and ironically it will now be your turn to get flamed. Stay Tough Willi

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On second thought… (some expressions of disapproval snipped)

"no-tooth-having"? Kind of rough on the new guy aren’t you? :) JR

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I’m a pretty new subscriber to this newsgroup, and I’ve already managed to have my fill of a couple characters on here.

well, i have managed to have my fill of you and i have posted here for at least six years. this is not a place for children, wimps, fools, pig-headed twits, paranoid schizos, hypocrites, illiterates, dimwits, cowards, bullies, and chiefly, whiners. this place is darwinian. i suspect your life span could be measured in moments. wayno

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I *live* for threads like the one you’ve opened. If only killfiles had expiration dates and HWMNBM would post more, the fun would never stop!

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I have been a lurker/participator of the NG for over a year. More lurker than participator however one thing that I have noticed is if you ask a serious question you will get serious, honest and best of all excellent responses. There is a lot of experience at this NG. If you ask a hypothetical question you can start a thread that produces excellent theories and good arguments for each theory. If you ask a bullshit question or state an opinion. Well you know what they say, opinions are like assholes, every one has a least one and this group has a lot. The bottom line is you can tell a flame response by the first sentence. If you don’t want to read it, just click next. —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a pretty new subscriber to this newsgroup, and I’ve already managed to have my fill of a couple characters on here. One guy posts something, and one or two others respond with only assanine, sophomoric bullshit. If you want to flame each other, and play your childish little games, do so through email. I don’t know why the hell a couple of you feel the compelling need to act like a jackass with another member, and I really don’t give a damn. Grow up and act like adults. You guys know who I’m talking about, and the people know who they are. The constant little remarks and jabs get sick of reading. It’s bad enough that one has to wade through spam on these newsgroups, but then to have members flaming others at every little chance they get is stupid. If you really can’t reply to someone with at least a bit of civilness, don’t bother replying at all. Saves everyone else the time wasted on adding you to a killfile. To everyone else on here: Thanks for being adults. Tight lines.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you don’t like what some people post, killfile them and don’t read them, don’t freakin’ whine. Pathetic. Is some other dope gonna post another silly whine? It’s interesting to me how ROFF has redefined the word "whine." Roff defines "whine" as a criticism of Roff. No other posts, criticisms, arguments etc. are ever labelled as "whining".

I disagree – I certainly wouldn’t flame someone who offered a legitimate opinion, expressed as such, about flames, etc. But what possible difference can it make to those "unflamed?" If 2, 12, or 30 people want to call _each other_ all sorts of things, and don’t target "civilians," why should the, er, non-combatants care? Everyone is perfectly free to either read and enjoy/cringe, or ignore it, and unless they discuss it, no one will know what they do. Therefore, I don’t see one person _telling_ others how to act as a legitimate criticism, I see it as a "power trip," or more accurately, whining because things aren’t the way the whiner wants them to be – "Waaa! _I_ don’t like this! Change it now!" Well, the participants seem to enjoy it, so why should they change to satisfy those who don’t even have to participate, or even see what bothers them? Now, if someone simply wished to offer they were dismayed by it, fair enough, I suppose, but I must admit, I don’t even see the need or point in that, for the same reasons above. Mark, I personally think that what you say is legitimate. It’s more on topic than most posts and IMO, your observation is accurate. If things run true to form, your post will start a flame war and unfortunately and ironically it will now be your turn to get flamed.

Hang on, Willi, (and, as above, all IMO) – this isn’t somebody who was conned into paying his money to join a club, rent shelter, or whatever and showing up, and finding out that he was in danger of injury, things were too noisy to concentrate, or other happenings affecting his purchased right to "quiet enjoyment." He got here via computer, and he had the ability to research what ROFF was like – other than referral, one HAS to search for ROFF as there is simply no other way to get here, and either way, one has ready tools to get a feel for what goes on. Therefore, if one chooses to read ROFF, then one accepts that it is a free, but unregulated, forum, and one must choose what to read and what not to read. Suppose someone "complained" that not enough <insert species here technique discussion took place, or there was too much "in jokes," or other "complaints?" If one doesn’t like certain topics on ROFF, then don’t read them, but to try and make a NG conform to what any one person wants is not only just plain silly, it’s rude and arrogant. Suppose he just showed up and started telling you how to run your business, your personal relationships, etc. Now, if he had simply asked if ROFF was always like this, for the purposes of deciding what he wanted to do, I (and I suspect others) would have been much less sarcastic. But to show up and start bitching about ROFF and making blind accusations, of the "we all know…" sand box gang-type is just asking for it (and who knows, maybe it’s a troll). He obviously knows what a killfile is, so why not just use it if he can’t control what he reads, and save the "I’m new, here’s what’s wrong, and here’s the way it ought to be – my way" nonsense. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Stay Tough Willi

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a pretty new subscriber to this newsgroup, and I’ve already managed to have my fill of a couple characters on here. One guy posts something, and one or two others respond with only assanine, sophomoric bullshit. If you want to flame each other, and play your childish little games, do so through email. I don’t know why the hell a couple of you feel the compelling need to act like a jackass with another member, and I really don’t give a damn. Grow up and act like adults. You guys know who I’m talking about, and the people know who they are. The constant little remarks and jabs get sick of reading. It’s bad enough that one has to wade through spam on these newsgroups, but then to have members flaming others at every little chance they get is stupid. If you really can’t reply to someone with at least a bit of civilness, don’t bother replying at all. Saves everyone else the time wasted on adding you to a killfile. To everyone else on here: Thanks for being adults. Tight lines.

Have you seen the movie "Gauntlet" where the good guy drives an armored bus through a whole messload o bad guys? I hope you enjoyed it. Welcome, Scott

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Good post and many others agree with you. All’s Fair With Fur or Feather gg

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[snip] If you really can’t reply to someone with at least a bit of

civilness, don’t bother replying at all. [snip] To everyone else on here: Thanks for being adults. Tight lines.

Mark, I agree with you whole-heartedly. I appreciate (and desire) your call to civility. But, and this is *really* hard for me to say, BUT ROFF flaming is a work of art [sic]. I’ve been lurking on the group since August of 1999, and I haven’t seen anything change, no matter who says what to whom about whatever. I do participate on a local chat board (or whatever its called). Flaming akin to ROFF started up, and one of the worst offenders started complaining about all the flaming! I pointed this out, he changed his ways, and now the board is a *lot* more civil…until the next flame war starts… which is bound to happen. I don’t like reading the muck, but eventually it *does* die down. Even with the muck, there is enough real information that makes it worthwhile. I appreciate your contributions, and that of many others. I am a relative newbie at flyfishing, and am always trying to absorb as much as possible. Right now I’m not at the experience level to be able to contribute meaningfully to the ffing topics. But I will when able. When my opinions become strong convictions I’m sure I’ll open myself up to all sorts of flames. The linguistic content of the flames usually is a reflection of the strength of language used by the originator of strong convictions. It other words, you get what you dish out. It comes with the territory called netnews. Most of the chief flamoids have a history in this group that bears upon each thread. Now, if I was a *real* adult, I wouldn’t participate in this particular group. <G But still I still lurk (and occasionally contribute). Rob

Response:

Blow Me! Op – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s interesting to me how ROFF has redefined the word "whine." Roff defines "whine" as a criticism of Roff. No other posts, criticisms, arguments etc. are ever labelled as "whining". Mark, I personally think that what you say is legitimate. It’s more on topic than most posts and IMO, your observation is accurate. If things run true to form, your post will start a flame war and unfortunately and ironically it will now be your turn to get flamed. Stay Tough Willi

Response:

You swine. You vulgar little maggot. You worthless bag of filth. As they say in Texas, I’ll bet you couldn’t pour piss out of a boot with instructions on the heel. You are a canker. A sore that won’t go away. I would rather kiss a lawyer than be seen with you. You’re a putrescent mass, a walking vomit. You are a spineless little worm deserving nothing but the profoundest contempt. You are a jerk, a cad, a weasel. Your life is a monument to stupidity. You are a stench, a revulsion, a big suck on a sour lemon. You are a bleating foal, a curdled staggering mutant dwarf smeared richly with the effluvia and offal accompanying your alleged birth into this world. An insensate, bleating calf, meaningful to nobody, abandoned by the puke-drooling,giggling beasts who sired you and then killed themselves in horified recognition of what they had done. I will never get over the embarrassment of belonging to the same species as you. You are a monster, an ogre, a malformity. I barf at the very thought of you. You have all the appeal of a paper cut. Lepers avoid you. You are vile, worthless, less than nothing. You are a weed, a fungus, the dregs of this earth. And did I mention you smell? Try to edit your responses of unnecessary material before attempting to impress us with your insight. The evidence that you are a nincompoop will still be available to readers, but they will be able to access it more rapidly. You snail-skulled little rabbit. Would that a hawk pick you up, drive its beak into your brain, and upon finding it rancid set you loose to fly briefly before spattering the ocean-rocks with the frothy pink shame of your ignoble blood. May you choke on the queasy,convulsing nausea of your own trite,foolish beliefs. You are weary, stale,flat and unprofitable. You are grimy, squalid, nasty and profane. You are foul and disgusting. You’re a fool, an ignoramus. Monkeys look down on you. Even sheep won’t have sex with you. You are unreservedly pathetic, starved for attention, and lost in a land that reality forgot. And what meaning do you expect your delusionally self-important statements of unknowing, inexperienced opinion to have with us? What fantasy do you hold that you would believe that your tiny-fisted tantrums would have more weight than that of a leprous desert rat, spinning rabidly in a circle, waiting for the bite of the snake? You are a waste of flesh. You have no rhythm. You are ridiculous and obnoxious. You are the moral equivalent of a leech. You are a living emptiness, a meaningless void. You are sour and senile. You are a disease, you puerile one-handed slack-jawed drooling meatslapper. On a good day you’re a half-wit. You remind me of drool. You are deficient in all that lends character. You have the personality of wallpaper. You are dank and filthy. You are asinine and benighted. You are the source of all unpleasantness,You spread misery and sorrow wherever you go. You smarmy lagerlout git. You bloody woofter sod. Bugger off, pillock. You grotty wanking oik artless base-court apple-john. You clouted boggish foot-licking twit. You dankish clack-dish plonker. You gormless crook-pated tosser. You churlish boil-brained clotpole ponce. You cockered bum-bailey poofter. You craven dewberry pisshead cockup pratting naff. You gob-kissing gleeking flap-mouthed coxcomb. You dread-bolted fobbing beef-witted clapper-clawed flirt-gill. You are a fiend and a coward, and you have bad breath. You are degenerate, noxious and depraved. I feel debased just for knowing you exist. I despise everything about you, and I wish you would go away. I cannot believe how incredibly stupid you are. I mean rock-hard stupid.Dehydrated-rock-hard stupid. Stupid so stupid that it goes way beyond the stupid we know into a whole different dimension of stupid. You are trans-stupid stupid. Meta-stupid. Stupid collapsed on itself so far that even the neutrons have collapsed. Stupid gotten so dense that no intellect can escape.Singularity stupid.Blazing hot mid-day sun on Mercury stupid. You emit more stupidity in one second than our entire galaxy emits in a year. Quasar stupid. Your writing has to be a troll. Nothing in our universe can really be this stupid. Perhaps this is some primordial fragment from the original big bang of stupid. Some pure essence of a stupid so uncontaminated by anything else as to be beyond the laws of physics that we know. I’m sorry. I can’t go on. This is an epiphany of stupid for me. After this, you may not hear from me again for a while. I don’t have enough strength left to deride your ignorant questions and half baked comments about unimportant trivia, or any of the rest of this drivel. Duh. The only thing worse than your logic is your manners. I have snipped away most of what you wrote,because, well… it didn’t really say anything. Your attempt at constructing a creative flame was pitiful. I mean, really, stringing together a bunch of insults among a load of babbling was hardly effective… Maybe later in life, after you have learned to read,write, spell, and count, you will have more success. True, these are rudimentary skills that many of us "normal" people take for granted,that everyone has an easy time of mastering. But we sometimes forget that there are "challenged"persons in this world who find these things more difficult. If I had known, that this was your case then I would have never read your post. It just wouldn’t have been "right". Sort of like parking in a handicap space. I wish you the best of luck in the emotional, and social struggles that seem to be placing such a demand on you. P.S. You are hypocritical, greedy, violent, malevolent, vengeful,cowardly, deadly, mendacious, meretricious, loathsome, despicable,belligerent,opportunistic, barratrous, contemptible, criminal, fascistic, bigoted,racist, sexist,avaricious, tasteless, idiotic, brain-damaged, imbecilic, insane, arrogant,deceitful, demented, lame, self-righteous, byzantine, conspiratorial,satanic,fraudulent, libelous, bilious,splenetic, spastic, ignorant, clueless,illegitimate,harmful, destructive, dumb, evasive, double-talking, devious, revisionist,narrow,manipulative, paternalistic, fundamentalist, dogmatic, idolatrous,unethical, cultic,diseased, suppressive, controlling, restrictive, malignant, deceptive, dim,crazy,weird, dystopic, stifling, uncaring, plantigrade, grim, unsympathetic,jargon-spouting,censorious, secretive, aggressive, mind-numbing, arassive, poisonous,flagrant,self-destructive, abusive, socially-retarded, puerile, clueless, and generally Not Good. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion P.S. Have a nice day.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a pretty new subscriber to this newsgroup, and I’ve already managed to have my fill of a couple characters on here. One guy posts something, and one or two others respond with only assanine, sophomoric bullshit. If you want to flame each other, and play your childish little games, do so through email. I don’t know why the hell a couple of you feel the compelling need to act like a jackass with another member, and I really don’t give a damn. Grow up and act like adults. You guys know who I’m talking about, and the people know who they are. The constant little remarks and jabs get sick of reading. It’s bad enough that one has to wade through spam on these newsgroups, but then to have members flaming others at every little chance they get is stupid. If you really can’t reply to someone with at least a bit of civilness, don’t bother replying at all. Saves everyone else the time wasted on adding you to a killfile. To everyone else on here: Thanks for being adults. Tight lines.

Response:

Good post and many others agree with you. Now *that’s* funny!

Good post and many others agree with you. Steve.

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Good post and many others agree with you. Now *that’s* funny! Good post and many others agree with you. Steve.

Now THAT’S funny! Wolfgang

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good post and many others agree with you. Now *that’s* funny! Good post and many others agree with you. Steve. Now THAT’S funny! Wolfgang

Good post and many others agree with you. R Et tu…? (as in "e twei" not Brutus)

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BLOW ME! Op

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Good post and many others agree with you.

Now *that’s* funny!

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I’m a pretty new subscriber to this newsgroup, and I’ve already managed to have my fill of a couple characters on here. One guy posts something, and one or two others respond with only assanine, sophomoric…

Take off, you hoser. –Steve (oops, sorry. wrong McKenzie.)

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I’m a pretty new subscriber to this newsgroup,

Ah, well, let me warn ya about a few things. One of the worst things a newbie can do is start explaining who is doing what wrong. It just makes them look foolish…. and I’ve already managed to ave my fill of a couple characters on here.

Oh-oh…well, as you’re new and all, just tell Wolfgang which ones, and he’ll dispatch them for you. He’s probably give you the dumbass discount if you ask stupidly enough….and I can tell you’re up to it… One guy posts something, and one or two others respond with only assanine, sophomoric bullshit.

Yeah, I can see what you mean, but while you may be "assanine," you’re not quite funny enough to be called sophomoric. You nailed the bullshit, though! And "one or two"? Is some other dope gonna post another silly whine? If you want to flame each other, and play your childish little games, do so through email.

Aw, Da-a-a-d, lemmee tease the dumbass, please, Dad, please? I don’t know why the hell a couple of you feel the compelling need to act like a jackass with another member,

Oh? Did you not mean to post this? and I really don’t give a damn.

Well, at least not after you spout off about it, right? Grow up and act like adults.

No, I don’t wanna! So there! You guys know who I’m talking about, and the people know who they are.

Right, you guys, now come on and let’s hurry and join up with Marky’s gang before all the spaces fill up. I, for one, would almost nearly mildly amused if I don’t get on board…. The constant little remarks and jabs get sick of reading.

Little "remarks" and "jabs" – are those your kids? Well, whoever they are, keep the little rug rats at it – this is the information age, after all, and they need to be able to read. It’s bad enough that one has to wade through spam on these newsgroups, but then to have members flaming others at every little chance they get is stupid.

But so much fun – I’m really enjoying this….BTW, wanna buy some nudie pictures of Dan Rather on eBay? If you really can’t reply to someone with at least a bit of civilness, don’t bother replying at all.

DAMN! NOW you tell me… Saves everyone else the time wasted on adding you to a killfile.

Well, at least you and…er…um…well, OK, you ought to have fun reading your own posts after you killfile everyone that posts something you probably won’t like…. To everyone else on here: Thanks for being adults. Tight lines.

And speaking of things being tight, how many foot-pounds of torque do you use on your ass? HTH R

Response:

<snipped snippy whine To everyone else on here: Thanks for being adults. Tight lines.

Feel free to add me to your killfile, you’re already in mine. Honestly. If you don’t like what some people post, killfile them and don’t read them, don’t freakin’ whine. Pathetic. –Your Buddy, Stan

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Mark…I was going to type something really compassionate and understanding…..even explain how I felt new…after only two or three years here…… …and then I thought about flaming – but I’m not really any good at it. I mean there are some pros here. I mean guys who do that sort of thin for a living…or maybe it’s just natural talent in some.. …but I think I’ll go camping. You see, I’m the resident lush and for that reason I don’t drink at home and I really want to have a couple of beers and watch this thread. It has a whole world of potential! john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a pretty new subscriber to this newsgroup, and I’ve already managed to have my fill of a couple characters on here. One guy posts something, and one or two others respond with only assanine, sophomoric bullshit. If you want to flame each other, and play your childish little games, do so through email. I don’t know why the hell a couple of you feel the compelling need to act like a jackass with another member, and I really don’t give a damn. Grow up and act like adults. You guys know who I’m talking about, and the people know who they are. The constant little remarks and jabs get sick of reading. It’s bad enough that one has to wade through spam on these newsgroups, but then to have members flaming others at every little chance they get is stupid. If you really can’t reply to someone with at least a bit of civilness, don’t bother replying at all. Saves everyone else the time wasted on adding you to a killfile. To everyone else on here: Thanks for being adults. Tight lines.

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Um…Welcome, I guess. Now, either get to love the place, or do yourself a favor and fuck off. Hope this helps? /daytripper (Thank you for your support) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a pretty new subscriber to this newsgroup, and I’ve already managed to have my fill of a couple characters on here. One guy posts something, and one or two others respond with only assanine, sophomoric bullshit. If you want to flame each other, and play your childish little games, do so through email. I don’t know why the hell a couple of you feel the compelling need to act like a jackass with another member, and I really don’t give a damn. Grow up and act like adults. You guys know who I’m talking about, and the people know who they are. The constant little remarks and jabs get sick of reading. It’s bad enough that one has to wade through spam on these newsgroups, but then to have members flaming others at every little chance they get is stupid. If you really can’t reply to someone with at least a bit of civilness, don’t bother replying at all. Saves everyone else the time wasted on adding you to a killfile. To everyone else on here: Thanks for being adults. Tight lines.

Response:

I’m a pretty new subscriber to this newsgroup, and I’ve already managed to have my fill of a couple characters on here. One guy posts something, and one or two others respond with only assanine, sophomoric bullshit. If you want to flame each other, and play your childish little games, do so through email. I don’t know why the hell a couple of you feel the compelling need to act like a jackass with another member, and I really don’t give a damn. Grow up and act like adults. You guys know who I’m talking about, and the people know who they are. The constant little remarks and jabs get sick of reading. It’s bad enough that one has to wade through spam on these newsgroups, but then to have members flaming others at every little chance they get is stupid. If you really can’t reply to someone with at least a bit of civilness, don’t bother replying at all. Saves everyone else the time wasted on adding you to a killfile. To everyone else on here: Thanks for being adults. Tight lines.

Response:

blah, blah, blah

Heh, heh. Ordinarily I would be delighted to fire the opening salvo, but there are a few relative newcomers who have yet to get first crack at one of these. Wolfgang who never tires of experiments in andragogy

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Question:

Please give me the www adress of cabelas Ger – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mu, I ordered my Special Flyfishing Catalog from Cabelas. However, it takes 7-10 day. I have not yet received it. I’m hoping I’ll get it soon. Thaks for the info. I’ll look in the catalog when it comes. Vern In article <Pine.SOL.4.10.10001211404380.1615- Good neck hackle is $25 at my local flyshop.=A0 Where can I get the stuff I need for a cheap price? =20 Vern, if you have specific flies in mind, then you can get Hoffman 100 packs for about $14 (did you get the Cabelas fly fishing catalog yet?). Basically you get about enough hackle to tie 100 flies from a neck that (had it been whole) would have cost way more than $25. Still, in the long run if you know you are going to tie many hundreds of flies, buying the $85 neck would make more sense. Mu. — Vern ^^^^^^^ (o)-(o)/ Before you buy.

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Mu, I ordered my Special Flyfishing Catalog from Cabelas. However, it takes 7-10 day. I have not yet received it. I’m hoping I’ll get it soon. Thaks for the info. I’ll look in the catalog when it comes. Vern In article <Pine.SOL.4.10.10001211404380.1615- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good neck hackle is $25 at my local flyshop.=A0 Where can I get the stuff I need for a cheap price? =20 Vern, if you have specific flies in mind, then you can get Hoffman 100 packs for about $14 (did you get the Cabelas fly fishing catalog yet?). Basically you get about enough hackle to tie 100 flies from a neck that (had it been whole) would have cost way more than $25. Still, in the long run if you know you are going to tie many hundreds of flies, buying the $85 neck would make more sense. Mu.

– Vern ^^^^^^^ (o)-(o)/ Before you buy.

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Please give me the www adress of cabelas Ger

I already did. It’s www.cabelas.com Do you want me to give it you you again. www.cabelas.com Vern Before you buy.

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The 100 packs are from saddles, not necks. They are "sized", namely they are marked with a hook size, 12-14-16-18. Cabelas does not carry the 20’s, but I have seen them somewhere else. I just bought a "18", 1/2 of the feathers are 18’s , 1/2 are 16’s. As 1/4 saddles go for about $20, perhaps they are a better value, but they are sized "small" or "large". In general, Hoffman saddles contain 2 sizes. For a beginner, a cape might be better. There are no good capes for 20 $ or less (regular price), however 1/2 capes might be available. Collins grade 3 capes are around 25 $, they are not as good as Hoffman, but they are not bad either, I like them better than Metz, and they come with a saddle which might be stiff enough for dry fly use on large flies (I haven’t tried it, but my grizzly saddle looks damn fine). I am not sure that buying the top of the line hackle is a great idea for a beginner, it is true that the feather count on a Whitings Gold makes it a great value, but one tends to waste a few feathers at the beginning of a fly tying career… -vittorio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good neck hackle is $25 at my local flyshop. Where can I get the stuff I need for a cheap price? Vern, if you have specific flies in mind, then you can get Hoffman 100 packs for about $14 (did you get the Cabelas fly fishing catalog yet?). Basically you get about enough hackle to tie 100 flies from a neck that (had it been whole) would have cost way more than $25. Still, in the long run if you know you are going to tie many hundreds of flies, buying the $85 neck would make more sense. Mu.

Response:

Yes, that’s the one www.cabelas.com www.cabelas.com www.cabelas.com www.cabelas.com

– Vern — Vern Before you buy.

Response:

says… Please give me the www adress of cabelas Ger

http://www.cabelas,com {easy guys I was just answering the question} a hopess addict and budding gear whore. — Michael Era

Question:

I guess it takes seven canoes AND a kayak after all. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah, but your average canoeist gets in the boat and immediately thinks of how to improve the bathtub. A kayaker, on the other hand, gets in and paddles off, secure in the knowledge that a kayak is just the bestest boat possible. Then why do I so many more extreme variations of kayaks than canoes? Economix? There are, conservatively estimating, 3 billion members of the potential kayak-buying public worldwide. There are about 150 canoeists. So any market fragmentation is much more likely with kayaks. Also: ease of use. Lettuce face it: it’s a Lott easier to roll a kayak than an open canoe. Size does matter, and it’s not always a good thang. This is a natural limitation on the OC Rodeo idea: only the true crazies consider buying rodeo OC-1’s. I’ve seen one on the river that I can remember: a Savage OC on the Tallulah Gorge. Rare have I seen a boat sans rider more often. Entrance, Oceana, Bridal Veil…literally everytime I turned around, that guy was swimming away from his boat! I’m soooo grateful to him for providing so much amusement for the Tallulah crowd that day. Riviera Ratt, # 77, Charter member of PFA 4/14/99 Still Rattless in ‘99!!! Click of the week updated 8/8/99 for a good time, call http://members.aol.com/RivierRatt/ratthole.html Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

<snip That one best all round canoe, then I met a guy I hadn’t seen in a couple of years, didn’t even know he paddled but was a fly fisherman ( so am I). In our conversation he stated that he owned seven canoes. < David Grabowski

Well, the guy’s a flyfisherman. He probably has a dozen rods too, and probably 2 or three reels for each rod. And 2 or three vests. Myself, I use my 8.5′ 5 wt. rod for everything, don’t have a vest, and paddle my Wenonah Solo+ everywhere I need to go. But I have 5 PCs… –Stan

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[a nice description which could do nothing but damage my case, so I quickly deleted it] Yeah, but your average canoeist gets in the boat and immediately thinks of how to improve the bathtub. A kayaker, on the other hand, gets in and paddles off, secure in the knowledge that a kayak is just the bestest boat possible.

It’s ok though, you guys know where I’m coming from on my discription, fly fishermen, canoe paddlers or kayakers have all seen what I describe at one time or another ! If not , they will if they stick with it long enough. Excitement is great, boat design is great but none of it can beat out old mother nature, to me the canoe is the vehicle to experience it with. One day I might just slip my rickety bones into one of the *other* paddlers choices . Grabowski – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have not yet begun to cry over spilt milk

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Yeah, but your average canoeist gets in the boat and immediately thinks of how to improve the bathtub. A kayaker, on the other hand, gets in and paddles off, secure in the knowledge that a kayak is just the bestest boat possible.

Then why do I so many more extreme variations of kayaks than canoes? — Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://madcanoeist.4ever.cc

Response:

Yeah, but your average canoeist gets in the boat and immediately thinks of how to improve the bathtub. A kayaker, on the other hand, gets in and paddles off, secure in the knowledge that a kayak is just the bestest boat possible. Then why do I so many more extreme variations of kayaks than canoes?

Economix? There are, conservatively estimating, 3 billion members of the potential kayak-buying public worldwide. There are about 150 canoeists. So any market fragmentation is much more likely with kayaks. Also: ease of use. Lettuce face it: it’s a Lott easier to roll a kayak than an open canoe. Size does matter, and it’s not always a good thang. This is a natural limitation on the OC Rodeo idea: only the true crazies consider buying rodeo OC-1’s. I’ve seen one on the river that I can remember: a Savage OC on the Tallulah Gorge. Rare have I seen a boat sans rider more often. Entrance, Oceana, Bridal Veil…literally everytime I turned around, that guy was swimming away from his boat! I’m soooo grateful to him for providing so much amusement for the Tallulah crowd that day. Riviera Ratt, # 77, Charter member of PFA 4/14/99 Still Rattless in ‘99!!! Click of the week updated 8/8/99 for a good time, call http://members.aol.com/RivierRatt/ratthole.html Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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A kayaker, on the other hand, gets in and paddles off, secure in the knowledge that a kayak is just the bestest boat

possible. Yes Galen… You are soooooo right! That’s why I see only *ONE* kind of kayak sold for *ALL* types of water… As a troll, this was not up to your usual standards… jm — Sometimes, if you stand on the bottom rail of a bridge and lean over to watch the river slipping slowly away beneath you, you will suddenly know everything there is to be known. - A.A. Milne Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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You need a variable geometry canoe.

If the material were flexible enough, you could use wire rope to put tension around the top edge; this would have a tendency to pull the opening into a more circular shape (wider) and pull the ends up (more rocker). Curt

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Actually, I’ve given some thought to how you could build one, for a particular novelty race that has one turn, although it’s very sharp. What I’ve got in mind isn’t technically a canoe, but more of a sit on top kayak built out of construction foam, hinged at the center so the rocker can be changed from flat to extreme by throwing a lever, then throwing it back when the turn is completed. It might even work.

See what I mean about canoes? You can’t even dream about ‘em effectively. I have not yet begun to cry over spilt milk

Response:

Actually, I’ve given some thought to how you could build one, for a particular novelty race that has one turn, although it’s very sharp. What I’ve got in mind isn’t technically a canoe, but more of a sit on top kayak built out of construction foam, hinged at the center so the rocker can be changed from flat to extreme by throwing a lever, then throwing it back when the turn is completed. It might even work. See what I mean about canoes? You can’t even dream about ‘em effectively.

No, but canoes have made many of my dreams come true through the years! To sit on the calm waters of the north woods at near sunset, the mystical glow of the setting sun reflecting on the water, the sound of the loons bouncing off the hills and the sight of a long fly line settling itself on the water are dreams come true to me. Same for setting out on a favorite stretch of river or gliding into an eddy , gracefully turning up stream or to shore to set up camp, great stuff ! How about the morning dew or even frost outside at daybreak, heavy fog lifting off the river, the sound of the rushing water, the canoe sitting ready? David Grabowski – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have not yet begun to cry over spilt milk

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[a nice description which could do nothing but damage my case, so I quickly deleted it] Yeah, but your average canoeist gets in the boat and immediately thinks of how to improve the bathtub. A kayaker, on the other hand, gets in and paddles off, secure in the knowledge that a kayak is just the bestest boat possible. I have not yet begun to cry over spilt milk

Response:

You’re title says it all — you’re right.

Response:

Anyone been in the perfect all round canoe, that one that ends all thoughts of if it were more nimble, or less cumbersome, tracked better but still turned in moving water or packed out more, solos better and so on? I just had to inquire, I realize this is idiotic !

You need a variable geometry canoe. Push a button & it goes from long & narrow with a little rocker to short & wide with plenty of rocker. — Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://madcanoeist.4ever.cc

Response:

Anyone been in the perfect all round canoe, that one that ends all thoughts of if it were more nimble, or less cumbersome, tracked better but still turned in moving water or packed out more, solos better and so on? I just had to inquire, I realize this is idiotic ! You need a variable geometry canoe. Push a button & it goes from long & narrow with a little rocker to short & wide with plenty of rocker.

I’ll start working on the plans tommorrow! Grabowski – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://madcanoeist.4ever.cc

Response:

You need a variable geometry canoe. Push a button & it goes from long & narrow with a little rocker to short & wide with plenty of rocker.

Actually, I’ve given some thought to how you could build one, for a particular novelty race that has one turn, although it’s very sharp. What I’ve got in mind isn’t technically a canoe, but more of a sit on top kayak built out of construction foam, hinged at the center so the rocker can be changed from flat to extreme by throwing a lever, then throwing it back when the turn is completed. It might even work. — Wes

Response:

My Ally Pak is a bit like this. It’s flexible enough to respond to the way it’s loaded. When in whitewater and big waves, I load it tight to center and it has nice rocker for turning and going up over breakers. When I’m running flatwater, I load it more evenly and it tracks well. Brad "Alaska isn’t the Last Frontier – It’s the Last Bite on the plate." Ed Abbey

Response:

You need a variable geometry canoe. Push a button & it goes from long & narrow with a little rocker to short & wide with plenty of rocker. Actually, I’ve given some thought to how you could build one, for a particular novelty race that has one turn, although it’s very sharp. What I’ve got in mind isn’t technically a canoe, but more of a sit on top kayak built out of construction foam, hinged at the center so the rocker can be changed from flat to extreme by throwing a lever, then throwing it back when the turn is completed. It might even work.

Or you hinge it sideways so that it naturally turns in circles. — Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://madcanoeist.4ever.cc

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You need a variable geometry canoe. Push a button & it goes from long & narrow with a little rocker to short & wide with plenty of rocker. Actually, I’ve given some thought to how you could build one, for a particular novelty race that has one turn, although it’s very sharp. What I’ve got in mind isn’t technically a canoe, but more of a sit on top kayak built out of construction foam, hinged at the center so the rocker can be changed from flat to extreme by throwing a lever, then throwing it back when the turn is completed. It might even work. Or you hinge it sideways so that it naturally turns in circles.

We have an insulation company locally, I don’t need to design much of anything, I ‘ll have them blow foam insulation into my Camper until it’s full, mold a depression in it at the same time to sit in and then cut it in half. I think there is some light weight stainlesss tubing in my garage to make a lever from, the hardware store must have cable or rod to make actuation links from. The foam may stop the oil canning at the same time ! I should deck this thing, what to use for that, maybe plastic dip? Grabowski – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://madcanoeist.4ever.cc

Response:

I’ve had it, for years Iv’e been trying to decide what the perfect canoe is. That one best all round canoe, then I met a guy I hadn’t seen in a couple of years, didn’t even know he paddled but was a fly fisherman ( so am I). In our conversation he stated that he owned seven canoes. Now that must be the answer, because I havn’t been in the perfect all round boat yet, though I do like my OT Camper( could glide better or not oilcan) and really liked a MR Explorer I used once( was too heavy in Royalex for portage). Also liked the Grumman 17 ft.canoe I used years ago ( clang bang for fishing, dented and stuck to rocks, paddled good ). Anyone been in the perfect all round canoe, that one that ends all thoughts of if it were more nimble, or less cumbersome, tracked better but still turned in moving water or packed out more, solos better and so on? I just had to inquire, I realize this is idiotic ! David Grabowski

Response:

Question:

To whomever was requesting this info, I forgot that you can contact Ray

Response:

Check out the links to New Zealand at http://www.davisbrown.com/ffgeo.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Plan to spend 3 weeks in South Island (late April – mid May). Would like some references on guides in South Island. Or alternatively, some web sites would help. Thanks Mike McGuire remove nospam to get correct e-mail address

Response:

Plan to spend 3 weeks in South Island (late April – mid May). Would like some references on guides in South Island. Or alternatively, some web sites would help. Thanks Mike McGuire remove nospam to get correct e-mail address

Response:

Go stay at the Lake Brunner Lodge near Greymouth. Ray Grubb is owner/guide, etc. Excellent fishing for big browns in tiny spring creeks, plus it’s a really nice, quaint, very atmospheric place to stay. I loved it there. Tell Ray I sent you. In Queenstown there’s a guy, can’t remember his name, but he owns/runs the Naff Caff cafe. Go there, ask for him and book him. He’s good. Try http://nz.com/cgi-bin/SearchCGI.pl. It’s the Akiko Web, which is an NZ web engine. Or just go to someplace like the Mining Company and ask for New Zealand fly fishing. You’ll get plenty of hits.

Response:

Question:

Of course, I haven’t fished California that often at all. Maybe twice in my life. Your trails are just too chucked full of broken rods. ;) - Just kiddin, just kiddin!

That’s cuz when we break a rod, we just Chuck it! Charley

Response:

Gosh, but it works for me just fine. Your bushes are THAT thick there, huh? I never find it probable enough to change directions with ‘that many’ hang-ups Charlie. I frankly would rather do it this way than stumble forward onto a rod or jamming the tip into exactly what you don’t like . . . thick bushes. What I do, if and when on those rare occassions it IS that thick, is the rod simply is dangling on my finger-tips. It it hangs up it pulls enough for me to stop immediately and wiggle it loose.

I almost always carry mine with rod tip trailing, with a loose grip, for the same reasons GG mentions. If the brush is very thick and the trail meanders (like willow thickets), I somtimes carry the rod pointing straight up. I rarely carry it tip first; too easy to snap a rod. Also, when traveling on a hillside, the rod should always be carried on the downhill side. That way, if your feet slide out from under you, you won’t fall on your rod and ruin your day. Charlie Quinton

Response:

Always walk down a trail with your rod butt in your hand and your rod trailing after. It is then a simple matter to unhook your upper fly and bingo! You already have enought line to cast and feed out. Mr. Gink

George, I was with you right up to here. In the pacific north west and California, it’s just too damn brushy for this. I always carry my rod so I can see the tip and keep it out of trouble. Invariably, when I try to trail it behind an eye or the line catches on a branch, and I end up retracing my steps to get it unwound. Nice theory, haven’t gotten it to work here. Charley

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Always walk down a trail with your rod butt in your hand and your rod trailing after. It is then a simple matter to unhook your upper fly and bingo! You already have enought line to cast and feed out. Mr. Gink George, I was with you right up to here. In the pacific north west and California, it’s just too damn brushy for this. I always carry my rod so I can see the tip and keep it out of trouble. Invariably, when I try to trail it behind an eye or the line catches on a branch, and I end up retracing my steps to get it unwound. Nice theory, haven’t gotten it to work here. Charley

thick there, huh? I never find it probable enough to change directions with ‘that many’ hang-ups Charlie. I frankly would rather do it this way than stumble forward onto a rod or jamming the tip into exactly what you don’t like . . . thick bushes. What I do, if and when on those rare occassions it IS that thick, is the rod simply is dangling on my finger-tips. It it hangs up it pulls enough for me to stop immediately and wiggle it loose. I simply just don’t get hung up that often Chuck to worry about it. Of course, I haven’t fished California that often at all. Maybe twice in my life. Your trails are just too chucked full of broken rods. ;) - Just kiddin, just kiddin!

Response:

I have to admit, I’m in the ‘hold the rod forward’ school myself…I have read and been told that this is not the best way, but when I tally the thing behind me, I always ball it up on the bushes like Charley. TimW – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Always walk down a trail with your rod butt in your hand and your rod trailing after. It is then a simple matter to unhook your upper fly and bingo! You already have enought line to cast and feed out. Mr. Gink George, I was with you right up to here. In the pacific north west and California, it’s just too damn brushy for this. I always carry my rod so I can see the tip and keep it out of trouble. Invariably, when I try to trail it behind an eye or the line catches on a branch, and I end up retracing my steps to get it unwound. Nice theory, haven’t gotten it to work here. Charley thick there, huh? I never find it probable enough to change directions with ‘that many’ hang-ups Charlie. I frankly would rather do it this way than stumble forward onto a rod or jamming the tip into exactly what you don’t like . . . thick bushes. What I do, if and when on those rare occassions it IS that thick, is the rod simply is dangling on my finger-tips. It it hangs up it pulls enough for me to stop immediately and wiggle it loose. I simply just don’t get hung up that often Chuck to worry about it. Of course, I haven’t fished California that often at all. Maybe twice in my life. Your trails are just too chucked full of broken rods. ;) - Just kiddin, just kiddin!

Response:

Two comments: 1. Rain forests of Pacific Northwest sometimes limit this method when bushwacking to the next pool. I often have to take the rod down to avoid breakage when working through foilage with jungle like characteristics. This applies to about 5% of my fishing. Otherwise it works. 2. DO NOT BEND THE END OF THE ROD when doing this. You can break it. There is a tendancy to pull the line from the reel end when hooking the guide. Rather one should pull the line straight out from the tip. Next time you have a fish on (or are snagged) look at the last foot or so of your rod. You will notice it is straight, while the rest of the rod bends. B.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Going to move to a different fishing location? Or walk down a trail with your flyline? Here is a tip on how to string up your leader and flyline for travel. Take the fly and do not hook it on the fly guide. This is a waste of time. Rather, take your fly and hook it about two or three guides below the Rod Tip. Bring your hand back on the loop and and loop your leader/flyline around the reel housing and then reel up the remaining slack. What this does, when done correctly is keep your leader out of the tip guide. Here is how it should look. Your fly line comes out of the tip, changes into your leader which goes directly down to and around your reel and back up to your fly which is hooked in a guide up near your rod tip. Always walk down a trail with your rod butt in your hand and your rod trailing after. It is then a simple matter to unhook your upper fly and bingo! You already have enought line to cast and feed out. Mr. Gink

Hi George, I’ve used this system for years and you are right it’s a great way transport a "rigged rod." Also it keeps you, your friends, or clients from ending up with a fly hook snagged in the carry hand. I can’t tell you the number of time each year I get to remove hooks from clients hands who chose to use the hook keeper rather than the system you suggest. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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Going to move to a different fishing location? Or walk down a trail with your flyline? Here is a tip on how to string up your leader and flyline for travel. Take the fly and do not hook it on the fly guide. This is a waste of time. Rather, take your fly and hook it about two or three guides below the Rod Tip. Bring your hand back on the loop and and loop your leader/flyline around the reel housing and then reel up the remaining slack. What this does, when done correctly is keep your leader out of the tip guide. Here is how it should look. Your fly line comes out of the tip, changes into your leader which goes directly down to and around your reel and back up to your fly which is hooked in a guide up near your rod tip. Always walk down a trail with your rod butt in your hand and your rod trailing after. It is then a simple matter to unhook your upper fly and bingo! You already have enought line to cast and feed out.

Two comments: – check the reel foot before you do this – many have quite sharp corners and will definitely eat into the leader. All of my CFO’s (which use a machined reel foot) needed a light touchup with a bit of sandpaper to take the edge off them (most of my Hardy’s needed a similar buffing job). – most flyfisherpeople I know have been doing this for decades… Cheers! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp. Alpha Server Engineering < < Parker Street Campus Maynard, Massachusetts < < Charter Member of "Curmudgeons Unlimited" < <<<<<<<<<<<< AMA 548313 <<<<<<<<<<<< Disclaimer: Opinion and content is mine alone, and unlikely to be shared by my employer, etc…

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Going to move to a different fishing location? Or walk down a trail with your flyline? Here is a tip on how to string up your leader and flyline for travel. Take the fly and do not hook it on the fly guide. This is a waste of time. Rather, take your fly and hook it about two or three guides below the Rod Tip. Bring your hand back on the loop and and loop your leader/flyline around the reel housing and then reel up the remaining slack. What this does, when done correctly is keep your leader out of the tip guide. Here is how it should look. Your fly line comes out of the tip, changes into your leader which goes directly down to and around your reel and back up to your fly which is hooked in a guide up near your rod tip. Always walk down a trail with your rod butt in your hand and your rod trailing after. It is then a simple matter to unhook your upper fly and bingo! You already have enought line to cast and feed out. Mr. Gink

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Question:

Sorry about the previous post – I am trying to get used to posting through Netscape and I am making a lot of mistakes. My question is this : 1. When I cast, my flyline and leader go out fine, but my tippet often lands in jumbled mess. What might I be doing wrong? I am using a 6wt rod, DT6F line, a 9ft 5X leader, and 5X tippet (about 18 inches). I normally use size 14 or 16 nymphs and dry flies. Thanks in advance for any help!

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1. When I cast, my flyline and leader go out fine, but my tippet often lands in jumbled mess. What might I be doing wrong? I am using a 6wt rod, DT6F line, a 9ft 5X leader, and 5X tippet (about 18 inches). I normally use size 14 or 16 nymphs and dry

Check that leader is straight before you cast, i.e. pull it through your fingers (or a small piece of rubber) until straight. Leader design should be 40% (of length) stiff butt, 20% floppy tippet, remainder stepping down (say 0.016" to 0.008"). If in doubt, buy famous-brand knotted leaders, e.g. Orvis. If you knot your own, you can customize fully. Excessive forward push on the casting stroke can cause fly to bounce back on loose loops of tippet (deliberately in some fishing situations.) — | Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs, | | Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734 |

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Sorry about the previous post – I am trying to get used to posting through Netscape and I am making a lot of mistakes. My question is this : 1. When I cast, my flyline and leader go out fine, but my tippet often lands in jumbled mess. What might I be doing wrong? I am using a 6wt rod, DT6F line, a 9ft 5X leader, and 5X tippet (about 18 inches). I normally use size 14 or 16 nymphs and dry flies. Thanks in advance for any help!

Two thoughts Jeff: 1) Try using a heavier leader, some of the tapered variety are good. This will provide stiffness, which aids the turn over of your tippet. You can then add your tippet to the end of the leader. It might be a good idea to use a 5′ leader at first, they are easier to control, when you have mastered that then progress to the 9′ leaded. 2) With seeing you cast its difficult to offer advice but a common fault with many casting techniques is that the angler casts at the water rather than at eye level. If when you cast you aim at the water then the fly line, leader and tippet are not given sufficent time to turn over, resulting in your line landing in a heap on the water. If you cast aiming at the horizon or eye level this will give time for the turn over to be completed and your tackle to land in a straight line. I hope they might prove to be of some help for you. Tight lines Chris

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Question:

The biggest difference, IMHO, is that sea kayakers don’t need to worry as much about the current smashing their faces into rocks!!! Not always true. My front teeth bear witness to that sad fact. It’s been my experience that most often you’ll need a roll in a sea kayak nearer to shore where the waves are a lot different (less regular), and where rocks can lurk just under the surface to rearrange the faces of the less wary.

Well, that is why I said "as much". But you’re probably right that nearshore is where you’re most likely to capsize, right where rocks are most hazardous. Not only are the waves less regular, they’re also bigger and more likely to break in the shallow spots where the rocks lurk. — Bob Myers InteleNet Communications, Inc. Phone: 714/851-8250 Irvine, CA 92714 Fax: 714/851-1088 http://www.intelenet.net/

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I saw a good video several years ago put out by Perception when I was taking the ACA instructor class. It shows a young lady sitting in her boat on the pool deck. She puts the top of her head on the pool deck while keeping the boat upright… It helps to have that kind of flexibility but it’s not required. I’m sure you could get it from them. I have to agree with the post by Chip Mefford. In the sessions I’ve taught the technique he describes works best for most people. There are basically 3 types of learners (get the ACA instructors man. for details on that) & you need to teach different people different ways. I was able to teach my 110 lb. daughter to roll an open canoe (72 lb. outfitted) in about two hours so it’s technique not muscle. Dave Stockdill

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Grace Under Pressure – Learning the Kayak Roll is good c-c only The Kayaker’s Edge also has a section on both the c-c & the sweep roll.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the fly fishing world about 15 years ago there was a deluge of articles on the mechanics of fly casting. Most were written by excellent casters who really did know how to cast but who really didn’t have a clear visualization of what they were actually doing. Videotaping eventually provided the correct answers. Question: are good videotapes of the Eskimo roll available? Where? Bob — —– Bob Perkins, Director of Institutional Research and Planning Methodist College Fayetteville, NC 28311 Office: 910-630-7037

Yes, watch what they do and don’t pay to much attention to what they say they do. THE KAYAKERS EDGE BY KENT FORD is one of the best how to kayaking videos.It has a lot more than rolling. Buy it,rent it or borrow it,after you have seen it you’ll probably buy it,if you aren’t to short of cash. My 11 year old grand son taught himself to roll I guess from watching the video. I sure didn’t teach him. gene

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Question: are good videotapes of the Eskimo roll available? Where?

In "The Kayaker’s Edge", amidst all of the other intro and skill stuff, is about a ten minute bit on rolling. It’s got some good camera work that follows the roll above and below the water’s surface. It should be helpful for a lot of people. Paul

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Question: are good videotapes of the Eskimo roll available? Where? Bob

"Grace Under Pressure" is an excellent video discussing the C-to-C roll. It discusses the on-side, off-side and the hand roll. I highly recommend it. This was the video I was shown before I even got into a kayak for the first time. I eventually bought a copy for myself and find it very useful. Viewing that in combination with reading the Bomb Proof Roll has helped me a lot. I would check with your local REI, I know they have the book, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they have the video. Or, any shop that carries kayaking equipment should have the video or know where to find it. Also, most of the paddling companies who do mail order has it. I know for sure that the latest NRS catalog has it. You can even order a catalog from NRS’s home page at http://www.gorp.com/nrs.htm Happy rolling! Harriet

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| Help– I have been trying to master the Eskimo Roll for over a year now | with my sea kayak and am having problems. Can anyone give me some tips | that migfht help me accomplish the challenge at hand. Thanks I sincerely apologize for the confusion and appreciate the kind advice sent my way. The original post appeared to be a sea kayaking fellow who was concentrating on the motion of his paddle — with no mention of hip snap. Is there anyone out there in a sea kayak who can help him? Again, sorry for the confusion!!!

What confusion? I’m a sea kayaker, and I’ve a good roll. I really do not believe the roll is any different (in principle) in a sea kayak or a whitewater kayak. The hip snap is just as much the key to the roll in a sea kayak. Your advice was right on. The boats do feel differently, and some sea kayaks can be very difficult to roll (certainly not all!), but the basic principles of rolling are exactly the same. The biggest difference, IMHO, is that sea kayakers don’t need to worry as much about the current smashing their faces into rocks!!! — Bob Myers InteleNet Communications, Inc. Phone: 714/851-8250 Irvine, CA 92714 Fax: 714/851-1088 http://www.intelenet.net/

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I’ve read two full descriptions, with pictures, of Eskimo rolls. No wonder beginners get confused. It took me several readings of both and careful scrutiny of the photographs to realize that the descriptions were essentially the same. To wit: Leverage roll = C-to-C roll Screw roll = Sweep roll Beyond that, the descriptions spend more words on what to do with the paddle than on the mechanics of the hip roll which actually rights the boat. Underwater, a person’s head and upper body have much more "sail area" than the paddle. Positioning the paddle properly sets up the boater’s upper body in a brace for the hip roll. Once the boat flips upright, the paddle brace helps the boater roll upright. In the fly fishing world about 15 years ago there was a deluge of articles on the mechanics of fly casting. Most were written by excellent casters who really did know how to cast but who really didn’t have a clear visualization of what they were actually doing. Videotaping eventually provided the correct answers. Question: are good videotapes of the Eskimo roll available? Where? Bob — —– Bob Perkins, Director of Institutional Research and Planning Methodist College Fayetteville, NC 28311 Office: 910-630-7037

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What confusion? I’m a sea kayaker, and I’ve a good roll. I really do not believe the roll is any different (in principle) in a sea kayak or a whitewater kayak. The hip snap is just as much the key to the roll … The biggest difference, IMHO, is that sea kayakers don’t need to worry as much about the current smashing their faces into rocks!!!

Not always true. My front teeth bear witness to that sad fact. It’s been my experience that most often you’ll need a roll in a sea kayak nearer to shore where the waves are a lot different (less regular), and where rocks can lurk just under the surface to rearrange the faces of the less wary.

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re: Help– I have been trying to master the Eskimo Roll for over a year now with my sea kayak and am having problems. Can anyone give me some tips that migfht help me accomplish the challenge at hand. Thanks

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Help– I have been trying to master the Eskimo Roll for over a year now with my sea kayak and am having problems. Can anyone give me some tips that migfht help me accomplish the challenge at hand. Thanks

Hips, hips, hips, and keep the head underwater for as long as humanly possible. :-) — Macalester College St. Paul, Minnesota http://sonic.bigelow.macalstr.edu

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Wow! I bet this turns into a monster thread….it might even exceed "Peeing in your boat"… I taught myself to roll with no outside instruction and, since I’m too dense to make sense out of pictoral instructions, virtually no book instruction. To start off the hundred-or-so tips you’ll undoubtdedly receive here, I would say go out and purchase a diving mask and wear it when you practice rolling. I got nowhere except a bad sinus infiction before I started using a noseclip. Using the noseclip I began to make progress; but once I started wearing the diving mask things really picked up – with tha mask on it is much easier to just sort of hang there upside-down and think things out before trhing to roll up. There are three or four other things I’m tempted to say, but I’ll leave them to those that know better than I do.

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A full face mask really helps while you are learning. Also the vido Kayakers Edge is white water but very good. Watch how others do it and don,t listen to closely to how they say they do it.

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re: Help– I have been trying to master the Eskimo Roll for over a year now with my sea kayak and am having problems. Can anyone give me some tips that migfht help me accomplish the challenge at hand. Thanks

I taught myself a simple cross roll first. Noseclip, mask, a watcher to give you feed back. I wraped the end of the paddle in an old sleeping pad and stuck it in the rungs of my ladder leading into the lake. Once I could do that OK, I moved to float on the end of the paddle. Finally I could do a simple roll with just the paddle. Then I learned a real extended paddle roll. Never could get a screw roll down with the heavier sea kayak – might have to do with narrow paddle and lots of surface area and deck rigging. Have fun Steve

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| re: | | Help– I have been trying to master the Eskimo Roll for over a year now | with my sea kayak and am having problems. Can anyone give me some tips | that migfht help me accomplish the challenge at hand. Thanks George: I think the best thing would be to take lessons. But, let me say a coupla things about rolls in general, at least for *me*. If you get up part way and seem to sink back at the last moment, you are trying to raise your head too fast. I have found that keeping my eyes on the paddle as it sweeps back forces me to keep my head down. I also use the extended paddle roll, which IMHO is the best for a sea kayak roll beginner. Don’t forget the hip snap, try to have another person watch as you try your rolls, they might see you doing things that you aren’t aware of. Also, wearing a PFD during your attempts, even in a pool, helps to get started. Finaly, I have to practice each spring or I find that I get "rusty". Good luck. — ) J sales rep-sgi http://www.dayton.sgi.com dayton, oh 513-258-7441 fax 7449

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Take a pool rolling class. Four or five sessions should do it. I also recommend the dive mask starting out. The AMC and Casco Bay here in the Boston area offer these with a boat for under $100. Good chance to try out other boats and meet some people to paddle with. — Regards, Sean

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Some things to help with learning to roll, roll, roll yer boat: 1) Relax and have fun with this. It’s NOT a muscle thing so just relax. 2) Start by rolling the boat over with your hips on the edge of a pool or dock or something to hold onto. 3) Graduate to using a couple of kickboards after you can do the hip roll easily on both sides from the solid hold. 4) Reach out to the side as far as possible using the boards before rolling up. 5) Keep your head down as you "slinky" up rolling your hips first and FOLLOWING with your head. If your head comes out first before the boat is over you’ll never make it. 6) Once you can do this easily on one or both sides, take one of the kickboards away. One kickboard is about the lift that your paddle will give, so try this until you can do it easily. 7) NOW you can use your paddle, but it helps to have someone hold the end at first. With the paddle parallel to the boat as you go over with your good hand forward (usually your writing hand, but eventually either) sweep the paddle across the TOP of the water until the paddle is perpendicular to the boat. This forces your non-writing hand elbow to slide UNDER the boat bottom and out of the water (when the boat is upside down. Then do the hip-slinky thing to roll the boat over and follow with your head. It helps to have someone watch and hold the paddle a couple of times to get the feel and to have them watch that the blade angle is flat on the surface of the water before you hip snap. Don’t give up, it’s damn hard to do at first, but once you "get it" you will wonder why it seemed so hard. 9) Relax! It doesn’t take a lot of muscle, it’s a technique thing. 10) Once you get it, play around with different ways of using your paddle to get up and intentionally make yourself roll over in all sorts of funny positions to learn to get into position from almost any angle etc… This is called the C to C roll, the eskimo is real similar but sweeps the blade rather than placing it perpendicular before you roll (kinda like doing the set-up for a C to C at the same time you roll your hips. Most people need to learn the hip snap before putting it all together. The eskimo roll from the stern of the boat rather than the bow is called a styr roll and is accomplished be sitting up from leaning back rather than from sweeping back from leaning forward. One of the greatest joys is your first roll in whitewater! : ) Happy rolling! Robb

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| Help– I have been trying to master the Eskimo Roll for over a year now | with my sea kayak and am having problems. Can anyone give me some tips | that migfht help me accomplish the challenge at hand. Thanks I noticed in another part of your post that you seem to be concentrating on your paddle. I’m not a sea kayaker, but I have been in a sea kayak and rolled w/no trouble (without even a spray skirt). Those of us rolling on whitewater rely most heavily on the "hip snap" element of the roll rather than the paddle (there’s even a "hands roll" which involves no paddle at all). Check out the book "The Bombproof Roll and Beyond" if you are still of a mind to teach yourself. It’s an excellent book – one I’ve used as a reference for trouble shooting while teaching roll clinics. Good luck!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | Help– I have been trying to master the Eskimo Roll for over a year now | with my sea kayak and am having problems. Can anyone give me some tips | that migfht help me accomplish the challenge at hand. Thanks I noticed in another part of your post that you seem to be concentrating on your paddle. I’m not a sea kayaker, but I have been in a sea kayak and rolled w/no trouble (without even a spray skirt). Those of us rolling on whitewater rely most heavily on the "hip snap" element of the roll rather than the paddle (there’s even a "hands roll" which involves no paddle at all). Check out the book "The Bombproof Roll and Beyond" if you are still of a mind to teach yourself. It’s an excellent book – one I’ve used as a reference for trouble shooting while teaching roll clinics. Good luck!

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| Help– I have been trying to master the Eskimo Roll for over a year now | with my sea kayak and am having problems. Can anyone give me some tips | that migfht help me accomplish the challenge at hand. Thanks

i learned my good side roll with the standard c to c hip snap, with a wide blade paddle. i never learned my bad side roll untill i started doing extended braces to the point where i could get my head in the water and skull in place .when you can do this with your head under the water you have mastered the hard part which is getting your head out without going back down. think it through in your head, it helps, and practice,practice,practice. just my 2 cents worth. my bad side roll was learned with my much prefered narrow blade paddle

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I noticed in another part of your post that you seem to be concentrating on your paddle. I’m not a sea kayaker, but I have been in a sea kayak and rolled w/no trouble (without even a spray skirt). Those of us rolling on whitewater rely most heavily on the "hip snap" element of the roll rather than the paddle (there’s even a "hands roll" which involves no paddle at all). Check out the book "The Bombproof Roll and Beyond" if you are still of a mind to teach yourself. It’s an excellent book – one I’ve used as a reference for trouble shooting while teaching roll clinics. Good luck!

The above was in response to: | Help– I have been trying to master the Eskimo Roll for over a year now | with my sea kayak and am having problems. Can anyone give me some tips | that migfht help me accomplish the challenge at hand. Thanks

I sincerely apologize for the confusion and appreciate the kind advice sent my way. The original post appeared to be a sea kayaking fellow who was concentrating on the motion of his paddle — with no mention of hip snap. Is there anyone out there in a sea kayak who can help him? Again, sorry for the confusion!!! Happy paddling! Cheers Elizabeth

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I agree with all that has been said and especially encourage you to try the mask or goggles. I am still working on a consistent roll. My biggest problem is that I tend to lift my head too soon. I didn’t even believe i was doing it at first so I put on the goggles and opened my eyes and sure enough I was looking at the ceiling intstead of at my paddle or the pool bottom. As long as I look at the bottom I tend to come up without fail. Good luck Lisa

well, sheesh, I really kinda hate to say this; I readily concurr with all these folks that all these aids may very well be the cats meow for some folk, but my experience has been rather different. It took me a solid two years before I had a "bomber" roll. These days I can usually teach a 2 person class to roll in one pool session, 2 sessions at the outside. I bought into the whole reading, goggles, nose plugs, video whatever. , , , , the thing is, where visualation may be of some assistance for some things, rolling is SO counterintuitive that for most people, making an attempt at visualizing what is going on only handicaps their progression. I was honored once opon a time to teach alongside Eric Jackson of Adventure Schools. EJ can (I’ve seen him do it) teach a group of half a dozen people who have never held a paddle to roll in about an hour without getting out of his boat most of the time. I can say with some certainty, that rolling is a BODY move, where sitting around underwater, upside down, looking around with your goggles on, is ridiculously disorienting. Visualizing is an INTELLECTUAL exercise. If your try to teach your intellect to teach your body to do something that is very counter to instinct, you are fighting an uphill battle with a slim chance at success. Facts are, your body wants air, in order to get air, it wants to get its air ports, (yer head) out of the water, as long as you are trying to get your head out first, you will fail. I cannot teach as Eric does, I teach in the water, I only demonstrate that the roll is in fact quite easy, does not require a paddle, and can be done on or off sides. I after demonstrating these things so as to make them appear as easy as they in fact are, I beach my boat, get in the water with my students, sans paddles, take them by the hands, get good eye contact and show them how to use their bodies to make the move. Then I give them their paddle back, posistion it for them as they go through the motions a few times, each time gently correcting any attempts to use strength over grace, each time easing my grip on the paddle untill I only have a few fingers on the blade. I then usually let the blade go after positioning it a few times, soon I am not doing anything other than being close by as they execute their first few rolls. More often than not, my students are not aware that they have rolled on their own untill I tell them. I guess my point is, rather than spend a lot of time concerning oneself with the "Okay, I’m upside down now, so if I put this hand here, cant the shaft this way, put that hand there, turn my head this way, and then, , , uh, I need to , , , uh, , , wait, lemme see, I need to twich this way and push that way and move the paddle this other way, , , wait, uh, , I need to, , , , crap, I need to breath!!! , , arrgghhh!!!" Hook up with an instructor and have them teach you. Post Script; It is a little strange in some sense, less so in others, that by and large both, in my experience, women very often learn the roll much faster than their S.O.’s in class. There are a lot of things at play here, however, i.m.e. the women seldom attempt to strong arm the roll, and the men nealy always do. In fact the more athletic the man, the more difficult it is to get them to let themselves roll. As another digression, I’ve had folk with a background in oriental martial arts specificly Akido, roll on their first try after having the roll slowly demonstrated. Once I had a gal tell me that she though the paddle was messing her up, then executed a hands roll after about 2 tries. That perplexes me to this day. It was a real pill gettting her to roll with a paddle.

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, , , , the thing is, where visualation may be of some assistance for some things, rolling is SO counterintuitive that for most people, making an attempt at visualizing what is going on only handicaps their progression. … I can say with some certainty, that rolling is a BODY move, where sitting around underwater, upside down, looking around with your goggles on, is ridiculously disorienting. Visualizing is an INTELLECTUAL exercise. If your try to teach your intellect to teach your body to do something that is very counter to instinct, you are fighting an uphill battle with a slim chance at success. Facts are,

Well, I, for one, would like to state that this depends very much on who you are and how you learn, and different people learn in different manners. In particular, I *absolutely* need to visualize a manuever before I can do it – and once I’ve visualized it completely, I really *can* do it. It’s very frustrating for me when people of the opposite type (going for the "feel" of it *without* the visualization) try to teach me any physical skill. I just can’t do it. On the other hand, contrary to most people’s experience, I very easily picked up my "off" side roll, once I had a good "on" side roll. It was, for me, literally no more than reversing what I did on the "on" side. No "learning" of body movements was required; all I had to do was visualize the reversed movements. What I’m trying to say is that we’re all different, and it’s hard to generalize that this way or that way is the best way to learn for everyone. Some of us require visualization, and some of us require the body training. I guess my point is, rather than spend a lot of time concerning oneself with the "Okay, I’m upside down now, so if I put this hand here, cant the shaft this way, put that hand there, turn my head this way, and then, , , uh, I need to , , , uh, , , wait, lemme see, I need to twich this way and push that way and move the paddle this other way, , , wait, uh, , I need to, , , , crap, I need to breath!!! , , arrgghhh!!!" Hook up with an instructor and have them teach you.

I agree that an instructor helps, on the other hand. I need to watch an instructor to *see* exactly what he was doing. But then I needed to think it through and visualize the whole process. — Bob Myers InteleNet Communications, Inc. Phone: 714/851-8250 Irvine, CA 92714 Fax: 714/851-1088 http://www.intelenet.net/

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Once I had a gal tell me that she though the paddle was messing her up, then executed a hands roll after about 2 tries. That perplexes me to this day. It was a real pill gettting her to roll with a paddle.

I believe thqt there is really something to this idea that: "this clumsy paddle messes me up when I try to roll" My son could do hand rolls, both sides, the second day trying to roll, however he is still having trouble using a paddle to roll. I think that when you have a paddle in your hands, you use it and forget about the body. If you don’t have a paddle, you KNOW you have to use your body. Makes sense to me. Jon Hauris

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Question:

Once upon a time after a full day of fishing I tied on a olive

wooly bugger, turned around and cast down stream and let all of my line out in the current. The I started reeling, yes thats right reeling the line back in. And guess what. The trout loved it. Hope I am not stipped of my rod and waders for admit<<< Hey, they call that slamming fish where i come from, and its a hell of technique. Works great for steelhead and salmon. Tom — "For the love of the fly, the cycle of spring, and all things that remind us of nature’s cruel dance."

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Colin Albert writes: My favorite patterns are similar – elk hair caddis, lt cahill, griffin gnat renegade, adams. But, and I am a bit ashamed to admit this — I have caught more trout and larger trout on a #16 royal wulff than any other. There, I saidit. This fly has seemed to go out of favor, and I wonder why. Am I the onlyone that ties this on when nothing is working???

I use the Royal Wulff #14 on small mountain streams in New Mexico. It is the best single producer for me. I wonder how much color can be seen from below water, and how much the fisherman can see. May improve the fisherman’s odds ? Nothing makes a more attentive fisherman than a fly that he thinks is going to work ! Arch Thiessen an indian trader from Santa Fe ******* Arch Thiessen "never put off ’till tomorrow what can be put off ’till next week" . . . anon

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My favorite patterns are similar – elk hair caddis, lt cahill, griffin gnat renegade, adams. But, and I am a bit ashamed to admit this — I have caught more trout and larger trout on a #16 royal wulff than any other. There, I saidit. This fly has seemed to go out of favor, and I wonder why. Am I the onlyone that ties this on when nothing is working???

I’ve caught alot of Brown Trout on the Royal Wulff in the small lakes in the hills of Mid Wales. It seems to work especially well in a flat calm and can bring fish to the surface if twitched rather than fished static. I’m never sure if this is simply because of the disturbance caused or whether the pattern has something to do with it. A Grey Wulff of the same size doesn’t seem to have the same effect. Any answers? Oliver Hides BBC Wales Cardiff.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -My favorite patterns are similar – elk hair caddis, lt cahill, griffin gnat renegade, adams. But, and I am a bit ashamed to admit this — I have caught more trout and larger trout on a #16 royal wulff than any other. There, I saidit. This fly has seemed to go out of favor, and I wonder why. Am I the onlyone that ties this on when nothing is working??? I’ve caught alot of Brown Trout on the Royal Wulff in the small lakes in the hills of Mid Wales. It seems to work especially well in a flat calm and can bring fish to the surface if twitched rather than fished static. I’m never sure if this is simply because of the disturbance caused or whether the pattern has something to do with it. A Grey Wulff of the same size doesn’t seem to have the same effect. Any answers? Oliver Hides BBC Wales Cardiff.

Once upon a time after a full day of fishing I tied on a olive wooly bugger, turned around and cast down stream and let all of my line out in the current. The I started reeling, yes thats right reeling the line back in. And guess what. The trout loved it. Hope I am not stipped of my rod and waders for admitting this. heheh Tom

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: : : : I’ve caught alot of Brown Trout on the Royal Wulff in the small lakes in the : hills of Mid Wales. It seems to work especially well in a flat calm : and can bring fish to the surface if twitched rather than fished static. I’m : never sure if this is simply because of the disturbance caused or whether the : Once upon a time after a full day of fishing I tied on a olive wooly bugger, : turned around and cast down stream and let all of my line out in the current. : The I started reeling, yes thats right reeling the line back in. And guess : what. The trout loved it. Hope I am not stipped of my rod and waders for : admitting this. heheh : Tom Anyone who would strip you of anything for catching fish on a particular fly is just a snob. I have had lots of luck with wooly buggers as well as Royal Wulffs. I think the Royal Wulff is a beautiful fly and is described by the original tyer Lee Wulff as a nice desert for fish…

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I am new to fly fishing and would like to acquire some good quality equipment. However, I am unable to mortgage the house for new gear. I am interested in a 8 1/2′ to 9′ rod, 5-6 wt (Sage, Loomis, ect quality) and a reel (Abel, Ross, ect). Please let me know of any used gear that you would like to sell or any advice which you would like to pass along. I guarantee that the gear will continue to see years of enjoyment!

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I am new to fly fishing and would like to acquire some good quality equipment. However, I am unable to mortgage the house for new gear. I am interested in a 8 1/2′ to 9′ rod, 5-6 wt (Sage, Loomis, ect quality) and a reel (Abel, Ross, ect). Please let me know of any used gear that you would like to sell or any advice which you would like to pass along.

You could save a small bundle by buying an SA System II or an Orvis Battenkill reel. They are both very pleasant to use, and blessed with smooth, powerful drags. You will not wear them out, and they can be purchased new for less than the price of a used Abel. From what I can gather, there is something of a consensus on the net; given a limited budget you are better off investing the lion’s share of your money in your rod rather than in your reel. — Keep your stick on the ice.

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