Question:

Thailand seems to treat Americans well.  I recall being stopped while sitting in a Thai cab by the police at what appears to be regular police check points for cabs. The Thai policemen noticed that I was American and had instructed the cab drive to treat me well and to get me to where I was going without delay responding in English that I enjoy my visit to Thailand. I have a fond memory of Bankok and enjoyed my stay there.

This sound like the reception Americans now receive in Phnom Penh, where it has recently been discovered that tourism is a huge money earner for everyone from coconut sellers in the streets to top dog Cambodiana Hotel owners. In Siem Reap, tourists coming from Bangkok are so popular, the guest house owners welcome them with extra security! See the latest news from Siem Reap from Gordon Sharpless on http://talesofasia.com/Cambodia/Updates/index.htm The Lao guys don’t seem to care much where anyone comes from, but in Vietnam, Americans are today even more popular than ever! Watch out when those Honda om drivers proposed to visit a bia om!! They dream only of dollars!! Cheers,

Response:

Thailand seems to treat Americans well.  I recall being stopped while sitting in a Thai cab by the police at what appears to be regular police check points for cabs. The Thai policemen noticed that I was American and had instructed the cab drive to treat me well and to get me to where I was going without delay responding in English that I enjoy my visit to Thailand. I have a fond memory of Bankok and enjoyed my stay there.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I remember distinctly that the admission to go up the 1000 steps to the top of Marble Mountain in Da Nang was US$10 for foreign tourists, which all 40 people in my tour thought excessive, and none would take the tour!  The admission for Vietnamese natives was $1. There were 4 policemen seating glumly under a shade at the entrance to go up the mountain and probably many more further up. A Swedish national, the nicest guy in the tour, who bought a lot of souvenirs along the way and gave money to begging children, got very upset and put up a noisy fight when he was shortchanged by a shop selling marble figurines!  He was again shortchanged in Hue by a girl selling brass gifts on a tour boat! The government’s 2-tier pricing scheme in most government services like airlines, trains etc…just make tourists feel cheated. The feelings among the tourists are that the Vietnamese government does not understand or care what service is.  They are obviously still waging a guerrilla warfare against the world. Merchants inflate their prices with tourists and look for every chance to short change them! It wasn’t long into this tour when some of the nicest and well-meaning people in the tour became very angry and leery of the Vietnamese government and its officials. In other tour groups in non-communist countries in Asia, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia etc…I had observed much more relaxed, happier and fun interaction between tourists and local people! There is Vietnamese official statitics that only 10% tourists return to Vietnam for a second visit, compared to 50% in Thailand.  Vietnam government and people  have to clean up their acts a great deal to make tourists feel welcomed.  The first thing that should go is that guerrilla warfare mentality among government officials, us against all those foreign devils, before Vietnam can be a friend with the world! VIET THIET

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At many other tourists’ attractions in Vietnam where foreign tourists are charged 10 times Vietnamese for admission, in the range of US$5 to US$10, . . . . . . On the outside chance you were telling the truth about not knowing the value of the US dollar over there (boy, they must have loved you!), the range of entrance fees for foreigners is about $.75 to $4.00, with most falling in the $1.00 category. The few up near $4.00 are the former presidential palace in Saigon, and the three king’s tombs and the Forbidden City in Hue. And yes, Vietnamese nationals pay less. So what? Doug

Response:

Fully concur.  I saw some statistic whereby the Vietnamese communists have arrested some 25,000 people since the close of the conflict most of whom remain in jail or have disappeared off the face of the earth.   The statistics on health problems in Vietnam seem to be accurate to some degree since they tend to mirror WHO related data. Does anyone know the reason for the HIV problem in Vietnam and whether it is related to the "Green Monkey" virus in Vietnam – cousin of the African Green monkey of being spread by heroin – needle  related issues as to spread of the infection. The situation does not look good at all and since HIV can cause severe immune problems that leaves one open for other infections it would be wise to stay clear locations where such problems exist. Of course there is TB and other endemic diseases on the rise in Vietnam.  Thus, a degree of caution is warranted regardless of where you travel in Southeast Asia. While I have long taken a like to Vietnamese food and music having served in country during the war years I will stick to my favorite Vietnamese Restaurant here in the NY metro area (Flushing, Queens County).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Mr. Hakpheng, Laotian people are indeed gentle. It’s the communists, Lao, Cambodian, Chinese or Vietnamese, who are the lowliest, crudest trash who have no respect for anyone or anything!   They are just a bunch of animals, given to satisfy their animalistic desires.  Nothing is sacred to them! Khmer Rouge and Pathet Laos were well known for raping, torturing, murdering women and children. I had posted in this group a true story by a then 14 year-old girl under Pol Pot’ horrible Khmer Rouge regime, who witnessed her close friends raped, sodomized, tortured then buried live in concentration camp by a bunch of Pol Pot’s soldier not much older then she. She now lives and works for the County of Los Angeles! These Communist savages should be driven from all countries on earth! VIET THIET Sabaydi THanouxay, I am so shock by this language you use. We have many of the young and innocent one here in SCL. We can not use this kind of the language to give them the bad idea. If you  have the bad word, you have to use the and this kind of the thing. It is the civilize way in America call as Etiquette language. Hakpheng

Response:

I remember distinctly that the admission to go up the 1000 steps to the top of Marble Mountain in Da Nang was US$10 for foreign tourists, which all 40 people in my tour thought excessive, and none would take the tour!  The admission for Vietnamese natives was $1.

Wrong again, Bucko! It is NOT, I repeat NOT $10!!!!! I’ve been up there more times than I can remember – the most recent about May 28. I’ve had hundreds of clients go there. I’ll find out the exact entrance fee, but it’s something like $1 for foreigners – less for Vietnamese. Doug PS. It may seem like 1,000 steps, escpecially as you near the top, but it’s really about 300.

Response:

I remember distinctly that the admission to go up the 1000 steps to the top of Marble Mountain in Da Nang was US$10 for foreign tourists, which all 40 people in my tour thought excessive, and none would take the tour!  The admission for Vietnamese natives was $1. There were 4 policemen seating glumly under a shade at the entrance to go up the mountain and probably many more further up. A Swedish national, the nicest guy in the tour, who bought a lot of souvenirs along the way and gave money to begging children, got very upset and put up a noisy fight when he was shortchanged by a shop selling marble figurines!  He was again shortchanged in Hue by a girl selling brass gifts on a tour boat! The government’s 2-tier pricing scheme in most government services like airlines, trains etc…just make tourists feel cheated. The feelings among the tourists are that the Vietnamese government does not understand or care what service is.  They are obviously still waging a guerrilla warfare against the world. Merchants inflate their prices with tourists and look for every chance to short change them! It wasn’t long into this tour when some of the nicest and well-meaning people in the tour became very angry and leery of the Vietnamese government and its officials. In other tour groups in non-communist countries in Asia, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia etc…I had observed much more relaxed, happier and fun interaction between tourists and local people! There is Vietnamese official statitics that only 10% tourists return to Vietnam for a second visit, compared to 50% in Thailand.  Vietnam government and people  have to clean up their acts a great deal to make tourists feel welcomed.  The first thing that should go is that guerrilla warfare mentality among government officials, us against all those foreign devils, before Vietnam can be a friend with the world! VIET THIET – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At many other tourists’ attractions in Vietnam where foreign tourists are charged 10 times Vietnamese for admission, in the range of US$5 to US$10, . . . . . . On the outside chance you were telling the truth about not knowing the value of the US dollar over there (boy, they must have loved you!), the range of entrance fees for foreigners is about $.75 to $4.00, with most falling in the $1.00 category. The few up near $4.00 are the former presidential palace in Saigon, and the three king’s tombs and the Forbidden City in Hue. And yes, Vietnamese nationals pay less. So what? Doug

Response:

The $5 toll was what I remember mentioned by the cab driver.  However, I was and still am unfamiliar with Vietnamese currencies, so I was unsure of how much changed hands at both stages.

Let me see if I understand you correctly – - You are Vietnamese. You speak Vietnamese. You have many Vietnamese friends & relatives who have taken trips back to Vietnam. You took a trip back yourself and spent at least 2-3 weeks there. You hung out a bit with VCP types. You used a fake accent to make people think you were undercover police. Finally – you don’t know the difference between $5.00 and $.85? At many other tourists’ attractions in Vietnam where foreign tourists are charged 10 times Vietnamese for admission, in the range of US$5 to US$10, . . . . . .

On the outside chance you were telling the truth about not knowing the value of the US dollar over there (boy, they must have loved you!), the range of entrance fees for foreigners is about $.75 to $4.00, with most falling in the $1.00 category. The few up near $4.00 are the former presidential palace in Saigon, and the three king’s tombs and the Forbidden City in Hue. And yes, Vietnamese nationals pay less. So what? Doug – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Between Noi Bai and Ha Noi, there is a new bridge whose toll costs all vehicles about $5 each way . . . . . . At about 14,000 VND per US dollar, that would be about 70,000 VND if you were correct. You aren’t, of course, but that should surprise no one. The tolls on that bridge and the specially built airport highway (the toll is for both) are as follows: Car   –            12,000 VND Bus (9-30 seats) – 20,000 VND Bus (31-50 seats – 30,000 VND Doug

Response:

Dear Mr. Hakpheng, Laotian people are indeed gentle. It’s the communists, Lao, Cambodian, Chinese or Vietnamese, who are the lowliest, crudest trash who have no respect for anyone or anything!   They are just a bunch of animals, given to satisfy their animalistic desires.  Nothing is sacred to them! Khmer Rouge and Pathet Laos were well known for raping, torturing, murdering women and children. I had posted in this group a true story by a then 14 year-old girl under Pol Pot’ horrible Khmer Rouge regime, who witnessed her close friends raped, sodomized, tortured then buried live in concentration camp by a bunch of Pol Pot’s soldier not much older then she. She now lives and works for the County of Los Angeles! These Communist savages should be driven from all countries on earth! VIET THIET – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sabaydi THanouxay, I am so shock by this language you use. We have many of the young and innocent one here in SCL. We can not use this kind of the language to give them the bad idea. If you  have the bad word, you have to use the and this kind of the thing. It is the civilize way in America call as Etiquette language. Hakpheng

Response:

The $5 toll was what I remember mentioned by the cab driver.  However, I was and still am unfamiliar with Vietnamese currencies, so I was unsure of how much changed hands at both stages. While the specific toll amount may been different, or may have been changed, the bribing and cheating scheme was true.  In fact, bribing and cheating are the norm is everything in Vietnam. Everyone in Vietnam engage in full time  creative career of screwing the Vietnamese government (Laos and Cambodian too I assume) out of its high taxes! At many other tourists’ attractions in Vietnam where foreign tourists are charged 10 times Vietnamese for admission, in the range of US$5 to US$10, I was able to use my thick Hanoi-accented Vietnamese to impress upon the gate keepers that I was an undercover security police on inspection mission.  Of course I was allowed free admission and granted a lot of other privileges and perks! I will ask for a thorough, personal inspection of your passionate wife and daughters on the spot next time, dear comrade Thanouxay. Capitalists’ tools work wonder in Communist countries! VIET THIET – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dough, Thank you for updating us with nominal rate for the toll from Hanoi to Noi Bai. I have been travelling tens of times on this route and had never encountered such so-called US$ 5 extorsion as fabricated by this "respectable" Viet Thiet. If my calculation is right, Viet Thiet is a shameless liar and a real trouble maker. On top of it, he was "intelligent" enough to reveal the real purpose of his visit to Mexico and that is to find out some "cheap fuck"… With regard of this kind of traveller, I do strongly think that Laos and its neighbour Viet Nam, better kick out of their respective country as soon as this garbage landed at our airport. sok dee Thanouxay Between Noi Bai and Ha Noi, there is a new bridge whose toll costs all vehicles about $5 each way . . . . . . At about 14,000 VND per US dollar, that would be about 70,000 VND if you were correct. You aren’t, of course, but that should surprise no one. The tolls on that bridge and the specially built airport highway (the toll is for both) are as follows: Car   –            12,000 VND Bus (9-30 seats) – 20,000 VND Bus (31-50 seats – 30,000 VND Doug

Response:

It’s true that the VCP keeps their officals’ salaries very low compared to the cost of living, that it’s well known that people cannot live on government wages. They take on government jobs only to use the power and authority to make money on the side. Therefore, everywhere one goes, one has to grease palms.  Even government agencies have to bribe one another to conduct business!  That’s how corruption are widely accepted in Vietnam! Their poverty and hopelessness among the Hanoi government officials is sometimes heart rending! During my visit to Hanoi a year ago as a tourist, one of the middle-level managers of a state-owned company took the time during his normal work days to show me around Hanoi, introducing me to his family and friends. I was grateful for his friendship and the chance to learn first hand how they suffered during the war, the extremely limited means they presently have to contend with, and how well they manage to care for one another etc… At the end when I had to leave Hanoi, the official made it clear that he expected me to compensate him for his time taken from work, loudly complaining about his expenses while touring Hanoi with me, which made me reduce my level of regards I had for him, his ethics and his family!  While I complied with his request for payment, he could have had far more lucrative offers from me as a friend before he made his demand! This was a man who had travelled to many civilized countries to learn business practices, but when one is hungry, one is less likely to have very high regards for ethics! The "BIA OM" (literally translated – hugging beers), that George Moore mentioned, are protitution dens which proliferate everywhere in Vietnam. There is a very serious unemployment problem for women in Vietnam. A government officials even puts it at 90%! The women who do not want to do the hard labor and poor return of growing rice on the ever increasingly scarce farm land, have very few choices.  Most of them migrate to the city looking for better life styles, eventually have to resort to prostitution, or the hard work of cleaning hotels, to stay alive. The surplus supply of women turns just about every activity in Vietnam into "om," beer om, coffee om, hair cut om, massage om, facial om, fishing om, beaching om, bath om…as fronts for the prostitutes to ply their trade! These prostitutes and their touts are well known to be not so discreet, fighting noisily among themselves, pulling tourists off motorcycles into their stores… (this actually happened to me and my respectable old highschool teacher in saigon!) Considering that these prostitution dens are just about everywhere in Vietnam, from Hanoi to Saigon, the chance to catch some mysterious diseases via third, fourth, fifth…parties are very high! Official VN government statistics in 2000 puts the known number of prostitutes in the 200,000’s, with 1 out of 5 carrying HIV.  The true figures are most likely much higher! Extra medical precautions while visiting Vietnam are highly advised! VIET THIET – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would not even think about trying to change their system. Only the Vietnamese can do that.  However, the Vietnamese who have taken up residence in the U.S. and/or who have become citizens seem to adhere to a higher level of ethics than those who reside in Vietnam under the communists.  What I find disturbing is that if the corruption has become moreso rampart in Vietnam one might be concerned about the flow of narcotics which has the tendency not only to corrupt the system — it is indicative of just how serious the nature of the corruption can have its impact on the spread of addiction and disease resulting from same. There has to be some reasoning for the massive growth of HIV cases in Vietnam.  One might say if they stay clear of the bars and prostitutes one does not have to worry. Such is not the case — people who developed HIV or full blown Aides tend to have no immune system response and therefore they are prone to a wide of disease including TB known to be capable of spreading among humans in Vietnam and to visitors as well.  Some people including myself refuse to travel to SF, CA where the issue of public health is so serious one may merely develop a wide range of infections just by talking and/or handling a telephone receiver. When traveling to Vietnam carrying a bottle of antibiotic soap(liquid or soap bars), or wipes just to keep your hands clean.  I know some people who have returned from Vietnam who have developed fevers of unknown origin. Reminds me of the days following the return of large numbers of troops in late 1966 with the same problem. One of the problems with most U.S. medical facilities is that there are very few people with backgrounds in tropical medicine which can spell problems for returning tourists seeking medical care. Restaurants in Vietnam do not meet the same health standards of restaurants in the U.S. which must meet health codes and inspections.  Carry band aids and tube of triple antibiotic ointment for cuts and abrasions. Of course you can listen to your tourist agent who will tell you everything is just fine in Vietnam and you will dam well know he or she is full of crap. I have traveled extensive in third world countries and have found the following to be true.  Please don’t associate understanding the system

Response:

Sleazy sex tour operators like Dog Grease are therefore given the red carpet treatment personally by the VCP politburo!

For those few of you who aren’t already aware – Viet Thiet is a liar. Put up or shut up, liar. Prove what you say or shut up. $1,000 says you can’t. How much are you willing to put up? For once, stop running your foul mouth, surprise me, and show a little backbone. Prove it or shut up. Doug Who is now waiting for the usual obscenity-filled reply which totally avoids addressing my request.

Response:

On top of it, he was "intelligent" enough to reveal the real purpose of his visit to Mexico and that is to find out some "cheap fuck"… sok dee Thanouxay

Sabaydi THanouxay, I am so shock by this language you use. We have many of the young and innocent one here in SCL. We can not use this kind of the language to give them the bad idea. If you  have the bad word, you have to use the and this kind of the thing. It is the civilize way in America call as Etiquette language. Hakpheng

Response:

The bribes and extortion money are finely divided up the chain of command of the Vietnamese Commnist Party and government, just like the MAFIA! All the lucrative jobs where the officials can extort / blackmail for money are sold to the highest bidders.  Custom jobs at major airports are reported to go for 50 ounces of gold, whereas street/highway patrol jobs for policemen in major cities, where they usually take cash from violators rather than writing tickets, go for 20 to 30 ounces! Flight attendant jobs for Vietnam Air cost 12 ounces….regardless whether they can read or write! My relatives have gone through all these job buying schemes with just about every government agencies in Vietnam! In Vietnam all competitions for jobs and privileges are based on how "red" one is. All college and advanced degrees can be easily purchased from corrupt educators and school administrators. To get jobs, one has to have impecable proletariat and revolutionary family backgrounds, lots of party connections, or one has to pay a lot of money.  Vietnam ends up being tp loaded with the most corrupt, the least competent people. This is why Vietnam under the corrupt Communist system will forever be the poorest, most oppressed, most corrupt, sleaziest country on earth! This is the main reason a large percentage of the people fo Vietnam must engage and benefit directly or indirectly from prostitution, drug traffiking and other vices, in discreet ways so as to save face for the Communist Party leadership! The VCP leaders know full well that their meal tickets come from income derived from foreign tourists, who mostly seek the only commodity readily available very cheaply in vietnam: PROSTITUTES! Who ever come to stone-age Communist Vietnam for any other recreation? None is available anyway! Sleazy sex tour operators like Dog Grease are therefore given the red carpet treatment personally by the VCP politburo! VIET THIET – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t you mean to say that the money goes right into the pockets of those "bia om" workers? In fact, the next time you are there, why not ask the border guards directly about where the money goes? The question usually results in huge smiles!! And if you are really good, you can sometimes find the "bia om" just behind the border station! Those border guards are a riot! I wonder if their bosses know what goes on locally? Probably not… Cheers,

Response:

Dough, Thank you for updating us with nominal rate for the toll from Hanoi to Noi Bai. I have been travelling tens of times on this route and had never encountered such so-called US$ 5 extorsion as fabricated by this "respectable" Viet Thiet. If my calculation is right, Viet Thiet is a shameless liar and a real trouble maker. On top of it, he was "intelligent" enough to reveal the real purpose of his visit to Mexico and that is to find out some "cheap fuck"… With regard of this kind of traveller, I do strongly think that Laos and its neighbour Viet Nam, better kick out of their respective country as soon as this garbage landed at our airport. sok dee Thanouxay – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Between Noi Bai and Ha Noi, there is a new bridge whose toll costs all vehicles about $5 each way . . . . . . At about 14,000 VND per US dollar, that would be about 70,000 VND if you were correct. You aren’t, of course, but that should surprise no one. The tolls on that bridge and the specially built airport highway (the toll is for both) are as follows: Car   –            12,000 VND Bus (9-30 seats) – 20,000 VND Bus (31-50 seats – 30,000 VND Doug

Response:

As this stupid, ignorant, pitiful trash of a man below, who uses a dead man’s name as his screen name, and who cannot read or write English, or Vietnamese for that matter, pretends that he can find faults with Viet Thiet’s writing, he just shows the world the stupid, deceitful nature of the Communists! This desparate man, who woud stoop so low, try so hard, use any sort of trickeries to gain the notoriety and credibility with the people in SCV, just lost it all! This is how a small bunch of of stupid, ignorant, violent savages, calling themselves Communists, headed by Ho Chi Minh, lied, cheated, terrorized, murdered their ways to seize power of Vietnam, then brought the country into isolation, and forced the people to their knees, begging and prostituting to foreigners just for a few cups of rice at the end of the day! EL CHIMPO and his commie cohorts are dumber than dogs!  They are also shameless and brazen-faced like a bunch of monkeys. They deserve to be despised by everyone. VIET THIET – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – La.i the^m mo^.t tie^?u tu+? so^`n so^`n cu?a Viet [gian?]cong hoa [hoac cua ngo dinh diem hoac cua nguyen van thieu deu giong nhau]. Tie^?u tu+? na`y cu~ng dda(.t ba`y american-english [ddie^`u na`y kho^ng he^` gi`] nhu+ng muo^’n xua^’t co+` thi` i’t ra cu~ng bie^’t lu+o+.ng su+’c mi`nh cho+, vie^’t dda.i thi` vu+`a xa^’u ho^? cho ca’ nha^n chu’ vu+`a ho^? the.n cho ho^`n ma ngo dinh va nguyen van thieu co’ nhu+~ng thu+’ dde^. tu+? do^’t ma` la.i o^`n a`o the^’ na`y; thie^.t dda’m vgch na`y no’ thua co^.ng sa?n mie^`n Ba(‘c la` mo^.t ddie^`u dda.i phu+o+’c cho da^n ta. Ta va.ch nhu+~ng cho^~ sai tu`m lum ve^` american-english cu?a chu’ cho ma` xem na`y [ta khong correct da^u, ve^` ho?i ma^'y tha^`y o+? lo+'p esl o+? adult school ddo' [tie^?u tu+? ma` so vo+'i Le chino thi` gio^'ng nhu+ con chuo^.t chu` be^n ca.nh con su+ tu+? ddo'. Sau la^`n na`y thi` la(.n ddi chu' ma`y!]: Dda^y nhu+~ng cho^~ sai ta bo trong bracket do: EL CHIMPO repeated [ sai thu nhat --- use of extreme obscenity ](D. M.)in SCV shows him to be a sick, old, twisted little pervert, who would not stop [sai thu hai--- at raping] his own mother! [ sai thu ba: khong biet dung English phrase va` cu' pha'p---- EL must have been severely abused as a child, perhaps sodomized daily by his own stupid, ignorant commie dad, and his despicable, animalistic relatives in Hanoi, such that he continually let his [sai thu ba, chua biet gi ve Freud ma dam viet au, viet sai Psychoanalysis Terminology ------ oedipal complex show! El must be sitting around fantasizing about murdering his dad and raping his mom everyday!] [ chua biet cach su dung tu, dat cau, chuyen y [noi chung trinh do rat so dang ---- With his obscenity-filled posts in SCV, El only acts out his frustration [ chua biet cach dung gioi tu 'preposition' --- at the fact that noone takes him seriously for his shameless commies' boot licking act, hoping to make a few quick dollars off the communists for himself! Of course El will take the short cuts and engage in the oldest profession to get what he wants! EL is just a little common, uneducated, unprincipled trash, despised by both communists and anti-communists alike! VIET THIET [Tom tat: khong du trinh do English composition, ma` da'm vie^'t tie^'ng Anh, chu+a ddu? tri`nh do^. die^~n dda.t tu+ tu+o+?ng Viet ngu, thi` la`m sao da'm ca? gan di 'debate' hay 'chu+?i ' ngu+o+`i kha'c. Chu' ma^`y ne^n la(.n ddi dde^? kho?i xa^'u ca? nha` Vie^.t gian.  QUANG TRUNG DAI CO VIET Why I disagreed with Mr World Justice in practically all of his posts, I at least recognize that He tried to be truthfull at least in the

Response:

La.i the^m mo^.t tie^?u tu+? so^`n so^`n cu?a Viet [gian?]cong hoa [hoac cua ngo dinh diem hoac cua nguyen van thieu deu giong nhau]. Tie^?u tu+? na`y cu~ng dda(.t ba`y american-english [ddie^`u na`y kho^ng he^` gi`] nhu+ng muo^’n xua^’t co+` thi` i’t ra cu~ng bie^’t lu+o+.ng su+’c mi`nh cho+, vie^’t dda.i thi` vu+`a xa^’u ho^? cho ca’ nha^n chu’ vu+`a ho^? the.n cho ho^`n ma ngo dinh va nguyen van thieu co’ nhu+~ng thu+’ dde^. tu+? do^’t ma` la.i o^`n a`o the^’ na`y; thie^.t dda’m vgch na`y no’ thua co^.ng sa?n mie^`n Ba(‘c la` mo^.t ddie^`u dda.i phu+o+’c cho da^n ta. Ta va.ch nhu+~ng cho^~ sai tu`m lum ve^` american-english cu?a chu’ cho ma` xem na`y [ta khong correct da^u, ve^` ho?i ma^'y tha^`y o+? lo+'p esl o+? adult school ddo' [tie^?u tu+? ma` so vo+'i Le chino thi` gio^'ng nhu+ con chuo^.t chu` be^n ca.nh con su+ tu+? ddo'. Sau la^`n na`y thi` la(.n ddi chu' ma`y!]: Dda^y nhu+~ng cho^~ sai ta bo trong bracket do: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – EL CHIMPO repeated [ sai thu nhat --- use of extreme obscenity ](D. M.)in SCV shows him to be a sick, old, twisted little pervert, who would not stop [sai thu hai--- at raping] his own mother! [ sai thu ba: khong biet dung English phrase va` cu' pha'p---- EL must have been severely abused as a child, perhaps sodomized daily by his own stupid, ignorant commie dad, and his despicable, animalistic relatives in Hanoi, such that he continually let his [sai thu ba, chua biet gi ve Freud ma dam viet au, viet sai Psychoanalysis Terminology ------ oedipal complex show! El must be sitting around fantasizing about murdering his dad and raping his mom everyday!] [ chua biet cach su dung tu, dat cau, chuyen y [noi chung trinh do rat so dang —- With his obscenity-filled posts in SCV, El only acts out his frustration [ chua biet cach dung gioi tu ‘preposition’ — at the fact that noone takes him seriously for his shameless commies’ boot licking act, hoping to make a few quick dollars off the communists for himself! Of course El will take the short cuts and engage in the oldest profession to get what he wants! EL is just a little common, uneducated, unprincipled trash, despised by both communists and anti-communists alike! VIET THIET [Tom tat: khong du trinh do English composition, ma` da’m vie^’t tie^’ng Anh, chu+a ddu? tri`nh do^. die^~n dda.t tu+ tu+o+?ng Viet ngu, thi` la`m sao da’m ca? gan di ‘debate’ hay ‘chu+?i ‘ ngu+o+`i kha’c. Chu’ ma^`y ne^n la(.n ddi dde^? kho?i xa^’u ca? nha` Vie^.t gian.

QUANG TRUNG DAI CO VIET – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why I disagreed with Mr World Justice in practically all of his posts, I at least recognize that He tried to be truthfull at least in the

Response:

Between Noi Bai and Ha Noi, there is a new bridge whose toll costs all vehicles about $5 each way . . . . . .

At about 14,000 VND per US dollar, that would be about 70,000 VND if you were correct. You aren’t, of course, but that should surprise no one. The tolls on that bridge and the specially built airport highway (the toll is for both) are as follows: Car   –            12,000 VND Bus (9-30 seats) – 20,000 VND Bus (31-50 seats – 30,000 VND Doug

Response:

EL CHIMPO repeated use of extreme obscenity (D. M.)in SCV shows him to be a sick, old, twisted little pervert, who would not stop at raping his own mother! EL must have been severely abused as a child, perhaps sodomized daily by his own stupid, ignorant commie dad, and his despicable, animalistic relatives in Hanoi, such that he continually let his oedipal complex show! El must be sitting around fantasizing about murdering his dad and raping his mom everyday! With his obscenity-filled posts in SCV, El only acts out his frustration at the fact that noone takes him seriously for his shameless commies’ boot licking act, hoping to make a few quick dollars off the communists for himself! Of course El will take the short cuts and engage in the oldest profession to get what he wants! EL is just a little common, uneducated, unprincipled trash, despised by both communists and anti-communists alike! VIET THIET – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why I disagreed with Mr World Justice in practically all of his posts, I at least recognize that He tried to be truthfull at least in the

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Why I disagreed with Mr World Justice in practically all of his posts, I at least recognize that He tried to be truthfull at least in the details (the Devils are in the details!) in his posts so He might preserve some credibility with his Anti Communist followers. Mr Vietthiet is a schizophrenic psychopath.  On one hand he used sexual innuendos to accuse people he know nothing about of which Mr Reese of conducting sex tours, Mr Justice of various sexual offenses for money or not and El Chino his Bete noire, his Jesus Christ he prayed to everyday of kissing VC asses,  are examples! (In a previous post I analysed Mr Vietthiet’s psychpathology as being sexually frustrated.  His obsession with Asses pointed to a latent or overt Homosexuality) On the other hand, He claimed to be advisor to the Politburo members of the VCP, travel up-and-down Vietnam insulting the VC or collecting information where to find sex.  Now He did it in Mexico as well ! All this pointed to a grave state of self delusion or frustrated Megalomania unsuccessfully controlled by visiting whorehouses! We should put VIETTHOT in the same Category as Veekhung, i.e., sexually repressed old men who use SCV as a Group Therapy medium. Elchino Boat People’s conscience had castrated him so thoroughly that he is now incapable of producing a coherent thought. The poor quality of his posts brought to nought his credibility forcing him to make outlandish claims such as this "advisory" role for the VCP Politburo. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have spent a lot of time in Vietnam on business and have mingled with the top party and government officials. Vietnam is a country corrupt from top to bottom. Corruption, cheating and gouging are everywhere. VIETTHIET has been calling everyone else who even suggested the idea of talking to Hanoi’s officials as pimps and whores, yet VIETTHIET admitted that he did businesses and spent a lot of time in Vietnam with party officials.  What a hypocrite! You can guess where I spend all my vacations! VIET THIET PS: Mexican customs (won’t tell you where) even allowed me to fly a beautiful girl, with no passport or any ID, to Cabo San Lucas for a great vacation…That’s how friendly the Mexican law can be if you genuinely try to speak Spanish to them…. What is this? VIETTHIET has been on illegal sex tour in Mexico yet he charged that the entire population of women in Vietnam are either sexually abused or sold as prostitutes by Hanoi. Go to soc.culture.vietnamese and search for all of VIETTHIET’s posts. Everyone can see that VIETTHIET is a double-standard double-face and a sick man. He acted as an anti-communist calling Hanoi as the place where prostitutes are sold by officials.  Now he showed the world that he is on illegal (bringing a beautiful girl with no passport and no ID through the border etc.) sex tour in Mexico. Now we all know why he is so familiar with sex tours.  He is a big client. World Justice

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Shame on you. . . . again. Doug – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The only SEX in this tour was what was burning inside Dog Grease’s old, ugly and horny mother as she cleans the sheets and vacumm the floor of the Mexican resort… VIET THIET PS: Mexican customs (won’t tell you where) even allowed me to fly a beautiful girl, with no passport or any ID, to Cabo San Lucas for a great vacation…That’s how friendly the Mexican law can be if you genuinely try to speak Spanish to them…. What is this? Sounds like some sort of sex tour to me. Shame on you! Doug

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VIETTHIET has been calling everyone else who even suggested the idea of talking to Hanoi’s officials as pimps and whores, yet VIETTHIET admitted that he did businesses and spent a lot of time in Vietnam with party officials.  What a hypocrite!

Feeding monkeys does not make one a monkey! PS: Mexican customs (won’t tell you where) even allowed me to fly a beautiful girl, with no passport or any ID, to Cabo San Lucas for a great vacation…That’s how friendly the Mexican law can be if you genuinely try to speak Spanish to them…. What is this? VIETTHIET has been on illegal sex tour in Mexico yet he charged that the entire population of women in Vietnam are either sexually abused or sold as prostitutes by Hanoi.

Ms. Just Tits is still trying to deny that prostitution is the biggest industry in Vietnam! That a very large percentage of businesses and people in Vietnam derive their living directly and indirectly from prostitution! Everywhere one goes, men, women, children, cab drivers, cyclos are all out selling prostitutes! There have been many reports in the party-controlled press about rampant prostitutes performing sex acts on streets and parks in Saigon and Hanoi, even in the Hoa Lo Hilton Museum, sometimes in broad day light! Only Hanoi has the notoriety of an old college professor, Son Do, who would beat, rape and black mail dozens of his young students into prostitution for the wealthy Communist party apparachiks! How many more Son Do have not been caught? Commercial sex aspracticed by Ms. Just Tits is completely different from flying your girl friend to Cabo for a vacation!  If Ms. Justtits jumps into bed with her syphyllis-ridden boyfriends, is she taking sex tours? Like street girls in Vietnam,  Ms. Just Tits pretends she doesn’t know what sex is, but if someone flashes a few dolar bills, then she is all business….  What a flaming hypocrite she is! Ms. Justtits could not argue on issues so she must attack VIETTHIET with her trashy smear campaign!  And she uses a screen name that laugh! Is the ugly, smelly and therefore sexless Ms. Just Tits getting jealous? VIETTHIET

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The only SEX in this tour was what was burning inside Dog Grease’s old, ugly and horny mother as she cleans the sheets and vacumm the floor of the Mexican resort… VIET THIET – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PS: Mexican customs (won’t tell you where) even allowed me to fly a beautiful girl, with no passport or any ID, to Cabo San Lucas for a great vacation…That’s how friendly the Mexican law can be if you genuinely try to speak Spanish to them…. What is this? Sounds like some sort of sex tour to me. Shame on you! Doug

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I have spent a lot of time in Vietnam on business and have mingled with the top party and government officials. Vietnam is a country corrupt from top to bottom. Corruption, cheating and gouging are everywhere.

VIETTHIET has been calling everyone else who even suggested the idea of talking to Hanoi’s officials as pimps and whores, yet VIETTHIET admitted that he did businesses and spent a lot of time in Vietnam with party officials.  What a hypocrite! You can guess where I spend all my vacations! VIET THIET PS: Mexican customs (won’t tell you where) even allowed me to fly a beautiful girl, with no passport or any ID, to Cabo San Lucas for a great vacation…That’s how friendly the Mexican law can be if you genuinely try to speak Spanish to them….

What is this? VIETTHIET has been on illegal sex tour in Mexico yet he charged that the entire population of women in Vietnam are either sexually abused or sold as prostitutes by Hanoi. Go to soc.culture.vietnamese and search for all of VIETTHIET’s posts. Everyone can see that VIETTHIET is a double-standard double-face and a sick man. He acted as an anti-communist calling Hanoi as the place where prostitutes are sold by officials.  Now he showed the world that he is on illegal (bringing a beautiful girl with no passport and no ID through the border etc.) sex tour in Mexico. Now we all know why he is so familiar with sex tours.  He is a big client. World Justice

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PS: Mexican customs (won’t tell you where) even allowed me to fly a beautiful girl, with no passport or any ID, to Cabo San Lucas for a great vacation…That’s how friendly the Mexican law can be if you genuinely try to speak Spanish to them….

What is this? Sounds like some sort of sex tour to me. Shame on you! Doug

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Since one could also be nailed for bribing, I had to tough it out, demanding, in very loud voice, that the officials in charge check out my visa and resolve the problems!   They let me go through with sly smiles…

So you didn’t actually have to pay any bribes then, did you! Between Noi Bai and Ha Noi, there is a new bridge whose toll costs all

I don’t think its new – its been there 5 years or so… The variety of taxis I’ve used have never used second hand tickets. (A counterfoil is retained as the ticket is torn.) Not saying it never happens though…. You say: Mexico, compared to Vietnam, is cleaner, safer, less hassled, far more civilized

but then: PS: Mexican customs (won’t tell you where) even allowed me to fly a beautiful girl, with no passport or any ID, to Cabo San Lucas for a great vacation…That’s how friendly the Mexican law can be

It seems you are ranking Mexico ahead of Vietnam on the basis of your ability to corrupt local officials. I think that says more about you and Mexico than it says about Vietnam. Jim

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I was blatantly hassled for bribes many times by Vietnamese Communist Custom officials arriving and departing at both Tan Son Nhut and Noi Bai airport! Since one could also be nailed for bribing, I had to tough it out, demanding, in very loud voice, that the officials in charge check out my visa and resolve the problems!   They let me go through with sly smiles… Between Noi Bai and Ha Noi, there is a new bridge whose toll costs all vehicles about $5 each way (roughly a week salary for a teacher – all public utilities are  very expensive in vietnam, relative to cost of living, as a policy to gouge tourists!). To prevent cheats, the toll is sold by a ticket booth manned by a few policemen, to be checked and collected by other policeman down the road.  The cab drivers, however had worked out arrangements with both the ticket sellers and ticket checkers, to pay $1 at each stage to be able to use an old ticket, saving himself $3 for each passage. I have spent a lot of time in Vietnam on business and have mingled with the top party and government officials. Vietnam is a country corrupt from top to bottom. Corruption, cheating and gouging are everywhere. Eventhough Vietnam was my country of birth, it’s very sad to admit that presently the psychology of cheating, extorting, gouging, stealing and aggression seem to be ingrained in a very large percentage of the population in Vietnam. People in Hanoi tend to be more traditional, even submissive, nice, sweet, helpful, less aggressive. People in South Vietnam are far ruder and more aggresive, and will blatantly try to take advantage of tourists at every turn. Since the criminal laws in Vietnam is very vague,  it is safer for tourists to assume that every local government officials can throw them in jail for long term without any legal process, and they are most likely to extort, harm and steal from the people in need! I have traveled to just about every state in Mexico, a poor third world country, doing business and spending long vacations there.  In contrast, the people of Mexico, even in poor and rural areas, are far more honest, friendly, upfront and helpful with tourists, even for someone who cannot speak the language.  They sell everything at the same prices to locals or tourists.  I never had a problem or was cheated in Mexico!  NOT EVEN ONCE in my hundreds of trips to Mexico! Unlike Vietnam whose Communist government sets higher prices for tourists and actively forces the tourist-related services to gouge and cheat tourists by imposing high taxes…. Mexico, compared to Vietnam, is cleaner, safer, less hassled, far more civilized and fun for tourists. Mexico with  clean beaches, warm water, good food, honest, fun and friendly people, low crimes, large varieties of arts, crafts, jewelry,  reasonable prices, great parties, and many water sports, great big game fishing  ( Vietnamese tunas only grow to 12 inch maximum before they are dynamited out of the water…) is much better place to do business or to vacation.  My top Mexico vacation spots :  Cancun, Isla Cozumel, Acapulco, Cabo San Lucas, Guadalajara, Puerta Vallarta, Ixtapa, Ensenada…. You can guess where I spend all my vacations! VIET THIET PS: Mexican customs (won’t tell you where) even allowed me to fly a beautiful girl, with no passport or any ID, to Cabo San Lucas for a great vacation…That’s how friendly the Mexican law can be if you genuinely try to speak Spanish to them…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It may be old information; but, my wife and I were shaken down by customs guards at Tan Son Nyut Airport. And it was very subtle.  It turned into a very vocal argument concerning the amount of the bribe.  The price went down from $50 to $20.  Of course, the shakedown at the Hanoi Airport was far more subtle.

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Question:

This would imply to me that regulations that were not readily enforceable, would still be followed by the majority of anglers. I would personally like to see "regulations" of this type used to reduce over crowding.

Yep. As long as the "regulations" don’t get too onerous, I think most flyfishers would follow them on an honor system. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’ve been fishing for forty five years. During my childhood and teens, I fished throughout the Midwest and Canada.  For the last 25 years, I’ve lived in Colorado and have fished most of the Rocky Mt.. area. I’ve only been asked to show my fishing license twice in my whole live. I’ve never had an officer ask to see what fish I had kept or see if my fly was barbless in barbless water or ……. Either I’m the luckiest guy in the world or there are extremely few DOW officers around that are enforcing regulations. On the other hand, I’ve only seen a few people fishing or keeping fish in violation of regulations. It seems that our regulations are personally enforced or enforced by the presence of other anglers. My experience is that the vast majority of anglers follow regulations even without the threat of enforcement from the legal system. This would imply to me that regulations that were not readily enforceable, would still be followed by the majority of anglers. I would personally like to see "regulations" of this type used to reduce over crowding.

I’ll concur.  In approx 26 years of fishing I’ve only been checked twice.  Actually, come to think of it, I need to take out some of those years since I was too young to need a license (sheesh, drops that number to 13 years).  Anyway, neither here nor there.  Personally I’ve seen a LOT of anglers who don’t follow regulations, but it’s almost exclusively been on the put-n-take waters and sorry to say it, but it’s almost always been those fishing with bait and filling freezers. I think unenforceable regulations are followed in direct proportion to how much people believe in the rationale behind the regulation and the chances of them getting caught.  Don’t see this being of much use for overcrowding. Just throwing something out here, but has anyone thought about maybe making multiple access points to popular waters?  I’ve never fished ANY moving water where I’ve felt even remotely crowded so I’m just guessing here.  Is there limited access?  Just me, but I can’t see why anyone would purposely fish as close together as some of you seem to imply. Just curious,      - Ken — ET1 – Evil Twin #1 "Guilt replaced the fun" – ROFF-Tim "Ethical conduct is purely a personal thing, and the only  arbiter of personal ethics is your own conscience."  - Mike Connor

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  I would tend to believe that most _fishermen_ would follow the rules. This would imply to me that regulations that were not readily enforceable, would still be followed by the majority of anglers. I would personally like to see "regulations" of this type used to reduce over crowding. Yep. As long as the "regulations" don’t get too onerous, I think most flyfishers would follow them on an honor system.

Harry Mason www.Troutflies.com

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This would imply to me that regulations that were not readily enforceable, would still be followed by the majority of anglers. I would personally like to see "regulations" of this type used to reduce over crowding. Yep. As long as the "regulations" don’t get too onerous, I think most flyfishers would follow them on an honor system.

Well, what’s so onerous about "use some common sense, please?"  You’re too trusting, I fear.  The true sportspersons will act properly, and don’t need laws/regs, but mere suggestions and education, but the bozos will act like bozos, and the laws/regs are needed to keep them from destroying everything, even if through sheer ignorance rather than maliciousness or greed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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While completely nekkid, William Loehman/Susan Schwarz Either I’m the luckiest guy in the world or there are extremely few DOW officers around that are enforcing regulations.

It’s probably the latter. The DOW’s enforcement people are called District Wildlife Managers. Technically, they’re peace officers[1] and are required to be certified as same, but they typically spend less than 30% of their rime on law enforcement. The other 70%-plus is spent on other wildlife management tasks. [1] Under the criminal code, they’re Peace Officers, Level II. That’s the same level as agents of other regulatory agencies like Gaming, Alcohol, Parole, Corrections, etc. That means that they’re not allowed to carry concealed weapons when they’re not on duty. "They conferred, as against the Government, the right to be let alone — the most comprehensive of rights…" -Justice Louis Brandeis

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – District Wildlife Managers. Technically, they’re peace officers[1] and are required to be certified as same, but they typically spend less than 30% of their rime on law enforcement. The other 70%-plus is spent on other wildlife management tasks. [1] Under the criminal code, they’re Peace Officers, Level II. That’s the same level as agents of other regulatory agencies like Gaming, Alcohol, Parole, Corrections, etc. That means that they’re not allowed to carry concealed weapons when they’re not on duty. "They conferred, as against the Government, the right to be let alone — the most comprehensive of rights…" -Justice Louis Brandeis

You must live in a strange part of Texas…Maybe we should have not given so much of the state away. Around here they are called game wardens and even the Texas Rangers are jealous of the power of a game warden. There is not a law enforcement officer in the state with more power. Unfortunately, very few game theives spend many years in prison even when caught. Their fines are seldom over the cost of a house, and few even have their pickups consficated as they should be. Big Dale – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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You must live in a strange part of Texas…

I’m not in any part of Texas.  I couldn’t have been that bad in my previous life. Maybe we should have not given so much of the state away. Around here they are called game wardens and even the Texas Rangers are jealous of the power of a game warden. There is not a law enforcement officer in the state with more power.

They’ve got a fair bit of power here. More than I’ve got, and I’m a real live Peace Officer, Level I just like the city cops and CSP and CBI. The only difference is that I make less, can’t enter private property without PC, warrant, or exigency, and I get to wear my gun home at night if I feel like it. Unfortunately, very few game theives spend many years in prison even when caught. Their fines are seldom over the cost of a house, and few even have their pickups consficated as they should be.

It gets worse. There was a waterfowl-poaching case that the USFWS took a few years ago. The plea agreement was for forfeiture of all firearms and vehicles used, plus five digits in fines and a few months in prison. Even the defense bought it. Then the judge knocked the fines down to three digits, wiped out half of the forfeitures, and suspended the sentence. It’s good to know that damage to our common resources is taken seriously by the Federal district judges. (This was a judge in TX, but I’m not sure which district, etc.) "They conferred, as against the Government, the right to be let alone — the most comprehensive of rights…" -Justice Louis Brandeis

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–                                                       -dnc- ET1 wrote …  Personally I’ve seen a LOT of anglers who don’t follow regulations, but it’s almost exclusively been on the put-n-take waters and sorry to say it, but it’s almost always been those fishing with bait and filling freezers.

That’s consistent with what I’ve seen over the years too.  Most poaching I’ve witnessed was in areas where people already had the legal right to take a hefty number of fish. Hmmm.  I wonder how the poached dead fish statistics compare to number of released fish killed? I think unenforceable regulations are followed in direct proportion to how much people believe in the rationale behind the regulation and the chances of them getting caught.  Don’t see this being of much use for overcrowding. Just throwing something out here, but has anyone thought about maybe making multiple access points to popular waters?  I’ve never fished ANY moving water where I’ve felt even remotely crowded so I’m just guessing here.  Is there limited access?  Just me, but I can’t see why anyone would purposely fish as close together as some of you seem to imply.

I don’t like the idea of increasing access.  While I think all public lands should be open to everyone, remoteness still has a value in protecting some resources from overuse.

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and vehicles used, plus five digits in fines and a few months in prison. Even the defense bought it. Then the judge knocked the fines down to three digits, wiped out half of the forfeitures, and suspended the sentence.

Sounds like the plea agreement was on the right track, except I think there must have been a typo as it came out a few months in prison when it should have been a few years. Then the judge went and screwed it up. Big Dale

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Just throwing something out here, but has anyone thought about maybe making multiple access points to popular waters?  I’ve never fished ANY moving water where I’ve felt even remotely crowded so I’m just guessing here.  Is there limited access?  Just me, but I can’t see why anyone would purposely fish as close together as some of you seem to imply. I don’t like the idea of increasing access.  While I think all public lands should be open to everyone, remoteness still has a value in protecting some resources from overuse.

I’m mostly just curious.  I’ve never fished moving water where I felt crowded.  If there are more people fishing than I felt comfortable with, I just start walking.  Just for my own understanding I’d like to know why the horror stories exist.  If some people don’t mind fishing in a crowd that’s fine by me, but I’ve never had trouble finding a remote spot within a reasonable walking distance. Later,      - Ken — ET1 – Evil Twin #1 "Guilt replaced the fun" – ROFF-Tim "Ethical conduct is purely a personal thing, and the only  arbiter of personal ethics is your own conscience."  - Mike Connor

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I’m mostly just curious.  I’ve never fished moving water where I felt crowded.  If there are more people fishing than I felt comfortable with, I just start walking.  Just for my own understanding I’d like to know why the horror stories exist.  If some people don’t mind fishing in a crowd that’s fine by me, but I’ve never had trouble finding a remote spot within a reasonable walking distance.

Here in Wisconsin there are very few places left more than a mile from the nearest road.  The vast majority of the land here is considerably less.  Each fishing season northern Illinois (which includes Chicago for the geographically challenged) and eastern Minnesota (Minneapolis, St Paul) disgorge their teeming millions upon our fair waters.. Lots of other folks come from all over the place.    I dare say there are few places in America that get pounded as hard as our fair state.  Naturally, this results in some very crowded conditions in some places.  But despite all this, I have never had any trouble finding a place to fish in solitude when I wanted to.  I think the trouble some people have with this one Ken is that they haven’t mastered the rules for finding out of the way spots, and so: 1.  Find out where everybody goes. 2.  Go someplace else.                                      

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Let’s look at it another way.. is there anything inherently wrong with unenforceable regulations?

Inherently wrong? Of course there is. If there is not a reasonable degree of enforcement the laws will be ignored. You are talking about a law that would require an observer (or team of observers) to watch you fish all day and count your catch, as opposed to a policeman seeing you run a stop sign. — Charlie…

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George Adams wrote Count me among those who are likely to puke if one more unenforcable, or unenforced, law is passed.

I propose an law whereby it’s illegal to puke. <g —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

I do agree that most people do behave responsibly.. but for those who want to be responsible C&R’ers, what do they have to go on?  Shouldn’t there be some guidelines at least?

I don’t have a problem with published guidelines, but passing laws that you know can’t be enforced simply to establish those guidelines is worse than just wrong. — Charlie…

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Let’s look at it another way.. is there anything inherently wrong with unenforceable regulations? One parallel is traffic laws.. so why do traffic laws work?  The potential of catching stop sign runners is so extremely low, but most people stop.  So then.. is it the threat of enforcement, or is it because we all realize it would be chaos if we didn’t follow the rules? I’ve said this before, but aside from the most popular fishing spots, take limits are also pretty unenforceable.  There are just too few fish & game officers to make the threat of being caught real.  Yet, it seems most people do follow the rules. Take limits are enforceable regulations, he is talking about implementing unenforceable ones. — Charlie…

– Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad mp3 songs: http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad

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I do agree that most people do behave responsibly.. but for those who want to be responsible C&R’ers, what do they have to go on?  Shouldn’t there be some guidelines at least? -Mark But I think we’ve already shown that we cannot be trusted to self-police. That’s why we need take limits. Who is this we and where have you shown yourselves to be irresponsible with respect to fishing? BTW, count me among the people who believe that regulations do not need to be enforceable to be respected by the majority. The majority who don’t behave responsibly unless they are told to? — Charlie…

– Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad mp3 songs: http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad

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I was fishing a week ago and was checked twice.  When the fist warden came through, he checked my licence out and we talked for a minute or two about the area and what DNR is doing.  He then walked over to where two other fisherman were fishing about 50-60 yards away.  It didn’t take much time for the warden to pull out his pad and start writing something on a piece of paper.  The warden handed the paper to the two fisherman and then the fisherman left.  These two fisherman were sitting there the entire time that the warden and I were talking and could have easily seen the game warden and left, but they didn’t.  I don’t know what makes some people so stupid. A third group of people moved in fairly close to where I was throwing the fly.  In fact, they were too close for my liking.  I was just about ready walkaway when the  second game warden came through.  The warden checked out my licence and we had a short talk about the area.  He then went to the other group of people.  I was close enough to hear the warden ask for their licence and then tell them, "you need a licence to fish."  Obviously, they didn’t have a licence.  The warden gave them a warning and walked away.  He didn’t even ask them to stop fishing. When I walked back to my car at the end of the day, passing the original spot, these fisherman were still fishing.  It was hard for me to understand why the warden wouldn’t make these creeps stop fishing. Earlier in the year, I saw a group of people collecting, I will not say fishing, fish with a cast net. They had several buckets with about 40 fish in them.  I was so upset, I went to a park ranger and they did nothing.  This was a put-and-take area.  I then called the DNR and they set out to check on the poachers.  The poachers were gone when they arrived.  DNR told me that they could nothing unless the offenders could be caught.  They also told me that the park ranger should have stopped and cited the poachers.  They also told me that this problem with the park rangers in not uncommon in this area.  The park rangers want to concentrate on people management not wildlife management.  I’m still upset about that situation. — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Before you buy.

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The majority who don’t behave responsibly unless they are told to? — Charlie… I personally have no idea what an appropriate take limit should be for specific fish in a specific area.  I don’t think that the average fisherman does either.  I need to know what the limit is in order to behave responsibly.  Making it a law gives the authorities a means of punishing those that are grossly irresponsible.

Take limits are enforceable regulations, he is talking about implementing unenforceable ones. — Charlie…

Response:

 ……. Either I’m the luckiest guy in the world or there are extremely few DOW officers around that are enforcing regulations.

I have only been checked once in my (considerably shorter) life, but I think that it is safe to say that it is cheaper to fish without a license all the time and pay the fines when you get checked than to buy a license every year. The time I got checked I was following all fishing regulations, but I had to hide my beer in a hurry, since I was only 16 at the time. — Levi Life is anything that dies when you stomp on it.                                                         — Dave Barry

Response:

The majority who don’t behave responsibly unless they are told to? — Charlie…

I personally have no idea what an appropriate take limit should be for specific fish in a specific area.  I don’t think that the average fisherman does either.  I need to know what the limit is in order to behave responsibly.  Making it a law gives the authorities a means of punishing those that are grossly irresponsible. — Levi Life is anything that dies when you stomp on it.                                                         — Dave Barry

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BTW, count me among the people who believe that regulations do not need to be enforceable to be respected by the majority.

Count me among those who are likely to puke if one more unenforcable, or unenforced, law is passed. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

But I think we’ve already shown that we cannot be trusted to self-police. That’s why we need take limits.

Who is this we and where have you shown yourselves to be irresponsible with respect to fishing? BTW, count me among the people who believe that regulations do not need to be enforceable to be respected by the majority.

The majority who don’t behave responsibly unless they are told to? — Charlie…

Response:

But I think we’ve already shown that we cannot be trusted to self-police. That’s why we need take limits. BTW, count me among the people who believe that regulations do not need to be enforceable to be respected by the majority. Well, what’s so onerous about "use some common sense, please?"  You’re too trusting, I fear.  The true sportspersons will act properly, and don’t need laws/regs, but mere suggestions and education, but the bozos will act like bozos, and the laws/regs are needed to keep them from destroying everything, even if through sheer ignorance rather than maliciousness or greed. —

–  Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio  http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad  mp3 songs:  http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad

Response:

Naturally, this results in some very crowded conditions in some places.  But despite all this, I have never had any trouble finding a place to fish in solitude when I wanted to.  I think the trouble some people have with this one Ken is that they haven’t mastered the rules for finding out of the way spots, and so: 1.  Find out where everybody goes. 2.  Go someplace else.                                      

That’s not the problem I have with over crowding. Especially on streams and rivers, I just think that the extreme over crowding that happens in our "famous" waters, is very disrespectful and harmful to the resource and shouldn’t be allowed. I’m no different than you. I find places that others don’t fish. I fished for Wisconsin stream trout for the first time last Fall and found a place where I didn’t come across any other anglers in full day of fishing. Very nice! Willi

Response:

I’ve been fishing for forty five years. During my childhood and teens, I fished throughout the Midwest and Canada.  For the last 25 years, I’ve lived in Colorado and have fished most of the Rocky Mt.. area. I’ve only been asked to show my fishing license twice in my whole live. I’ve never had an officer ask to see what fish I had kept or see if my fly was barbless in barbless water or ……. Either I’m the luckiest guy in the world or there are extremely few DOW officers around that are enforcing regulations. On the other hand, I’ve only seen a few people fishing or keeping fish in violation of regulations. It seems that our regulations are personally enforced or enforced by the presence of other anglers. My experience is that the vast majority of anglers follow regulations even without the threat of enforcement from the legal system. This would imply to me that regulations that were not readily enforceable, would still be followed by the majority of anglers. I would personally like to see "regulations" of this type used to reduce over crowding. Willi

Response:

Question:

Awhile ago I posted a question about using horses for flyfishing (for riding to the spots, not for materials), and got some helpful replies. Well, I’m gonna do it. I found a place to pasture a horse about five miles from Stanley, for $35 a month! I can’t imagine what it would cost me to keep a horse in Menlo Park, CA. It would be a choice between that and sending my kids to college. It’s a beautiful pasture on 40 acres owned by a crusty oldimer who used to live in my cabin way back when. I think he’ll show this greenhorn the ropes. His place is right at the foot of the Sawtooths, next to some beautiful country with high lakes. I’ve found I’m too old to hump my gear up to the high country. I figure $2000 or so for a good horse (I’ll start with one, then maybe get another), $1000 for a trailer, $500 or so for tack, and pocket change for shots, shoeing, and whatnot, and I’m in business. I just don’t know if I can wait for next spring. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

RW, EEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAWWWWWW   HEE HEEEE HAW!!!!!!   HHOOOOOOOOOOOOO As the "bank" side of a four horse stable for my daughter I got a tremendous laugh out of your post!! Thanks for the moments of "unbridled" (to make a poor horse pun) laughter – horse laughter even. You have made my day brighter! The down side is that if you think   " I figure $2000 or so for a good horse (I’ll start with one, then maybe get another), $1000 for a trailer, $500 or so for tack, and pocket change for shots, shoeing, and whatnot, and I’m in business. I just don’t know if I can wait for next spring. " is a realistic budget for

messin’ with horses you got "anuther think" coming. They can get pretty expensive – and I didn’t see any mention of YOUR medical bills Best of luck, but it sounds like someone offered to "git chew inna horse bidness right". GB

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Awhile ago I posted a question about using horses for flyfishing (for riding to the spots, not for materials), and got some helpful replies. Well, I’m gonna do it. I found a place to pasture a horse about five miles from Stanley, for $35 a month! I can’t imagine what it would cost me to keep a horse in Menlo Park, CA. It would be a choice between that and sending my kids to college. It’s a beautiful pasture on 40 acres owned by a crusty oldimer who used to live in my cabin way back when. I think he’ll show this greenhorn the ropes. His place is right at the foot of the Sawtooths, next to some beautiful country with high lakes. I’ve found I’m too old to hump my gear up to the high country. I figure $2000 or so for a good horse (I’ll start with one, then maybe get another), $1000 for a trailer, $500 or so for tack, and pocket change for shots, shoeing, and whatnot, and I’m in business. I just don’t know if I can wait for next spring. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Care to post some useful information?  Not that I don’t appreciate your solid-caps onomatopoetic laughter, but if you think rw has his numbers way off, how about telling him why instead of making fun of him.  I have more than a little horse experience myself and those numbers sound pretty close to me. Do you take yours to a hairdresser or what?

Doesn’t everybody take their horse to the hairdresser and get it manicured?!?! You must not have cared for your horse if you didn’t call the vet everytime it farted, coughed or sneezed because those are signs of serious illness! Especially the farting "Doc, I just don’t know what to do.  My horse keeps breaking wind even at a standstill!" On a serious note, I would look to spend a little more than $1000 for a trailer and $500 for tack.  Make sure to check the floor of the trailer.  Not a good idea to buy a trailer then have to fix it.  And make sure to actually sit in the saddle and make sure it is comfortable (preferably on the intended horse). When I say comfortable I mean for the horse AND you.   Just some suggestions. Besides, what’s the worst that can happen?  Find out it isn’t going to work out and then sell everything? Warren

Response:

Doesn’t everybody take their horse to the hairdresser and get it manicured?!?! You must not have cared for your horse if you didn’t call the vet everytime it farted, coughed or sneezed because those are signs of serious illness! Especially the farting "Doc, I just don’t know what to do.  My horse keeps breaking wind even at a standstill!" On a serious note, I would look to spend a little more than $1000 for a trailer and $500 for tack.  

Probably right. When I actually start buying things I tend to spend far more than my minimum estimates because I’d rather have nice things, as long as I get value for my money. Of course, I’ll have to reserve a few thousand for hairdressing and manicures. On a side note, lots of people ride Harley Davidson motorcycles around here. I’ve had a few bikes and I’ve always wanted a Harley, so I was musing about getting one. Then I thought about the comparatively low cost of a horse and how many more hours of enjoyment I’d get out of it, and there was no contest. Probably after I get the horse I’ll start thinking about Harleys again. Make sure to check the floor of the trailer.  Not a good idea to buy a trailer then have to fix it.  And make sure to actually sit in the saddle and make sure it is comfortable (preferably on the intended horse). When I say comfortable I mean for the horse AND you.   Just some suggestions.

Thanks for the helpful suggestions, WFin66. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

RW, Write back in a few years. By then you will have been educated. Without the experiential wisdom you are just speculating. Good luck with your horse scheme, but my point is that you WILL need to budget more than "pocket change" for the expenses you mentioned. Glen

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To all – I couldn’t help myself… I hope RW dosen’t take it as a flame – wasn’t meant that way. On the other hand, when he mentioned those "pocket change" items – maybe he has BIG POCKETS and LOTS OF CHANGE!! $2000 for a horse and $1000 for a trailer. Do you expect shots, shoeing, and so on to be significant compared to that? Perhaps unlike your daughters, I’m not real sentimental about animals (except for my Golden Retriever). If I were looking at a bottomless pit of medical expenses for an animal I’d cut my losses. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

RW, Write back in a few years. By then you will have been educated. Without the experiential wisdom you are just speculating. Good luck with your horse scheme, but my point is that you WILL need to budget more than "pocket change" for the expenses you mentioned. Glen

I’ll do that. The "pocket change" phrase was hyberbole. BTW, I’m not merely speculating. Like everything I do that requires significant outlays of cash, I’ve been looking into it pretty carefully. I’ve long wanted a horse or two, but having them at my California residence would be an absurd waste of money — something for billionares in Woodside. Here in Idaho it looks like a bargain, plus I’d be pasturing them right next to some great country. Most enjoyable things require some money (at least, the things I enjoy), but I’m no sucker, which you implied I was, and which frankly pissed me off. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Gee RW, as I mentioned before, my comments were NOT made to, as you say it "piss you off", but I DID find a GREAT deal of humor in your original thesis. This message sounds much more rational, as though you are now considering the big picture. I too enjoy the horses. I have liked them for years and only bought some in the past few years. We were terribly naive when we got started (we actually thought ONE bale of hay was significant!! – now we buy *hundreds* of bales in one trip). No, we do not go to the horseyhairdresser, but we DO take VERY good care of ALL our animals. Perhaps I was too flip in my original response to the group. I truly would not want to see anyone have a bad horse experience and it sounded like that is where you were headed. So sorry I hurt your feelings! Glen

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RW, Write back in a few years. By then you will have been educated. Without the experiential wisdom you are just speculating. Good luck with your horse scheme, but my point is that you WILL need to budget more than "pocket change" for the expenses you mentioned. Glen I’ll do that. The "pocket change" phrase was hyberbole. BTW, I’m not merely speculating. Like everything I do that requires significant outlays of cash, I’ve been looking into it pretty carefully. I’ve long wanted a horse or two, but having them at my California residence would be an absurd waste of money — something for billionares in Woodside. Here in Idaho it looks like a bargain, plus I’d be pasturing them right next to some great country. Most enjoyable things require some money (at least, the things I enjoy), but I’m no sucker, which you implied I was, and which frankly pissed me off. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Perhaps I was too flip in my original response to the group. <

Pretty hard to be *too* flip!  <g

Response:

RW, EEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAWWWWWW   HEE HEEEE HAW!!!!!!   HHOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Care to post some useful information?  Not that I don’t appreciate your solid-caps onomatopoetic laughter, but if you think rw has his numbers way off, how about telling him why instead of making fun of him.  I have more than a little horse experience myself and those numbers sound pretty close to me.  Do you take yours to a hairdresser or what? — Levi I have been through some terrible things in my life – some of which actually happened.  –Mark Twain

Response:

RW, EEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAWWWWWW   HEE HEEEE HAW!!!!!!   HHOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Hey! Attributions are in order – lest you be accused of plagiarizing the best line that Chill Wills ever delivered… /daytripper (lessee who remembers…)

Response:

RW, EEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAWWWWWW   HEE HEEEE HAW!!!!!!   HHOOOOOOOOOOOOO Care to post some useful information?  Not that I don’t appreciate your solid-caps onomatopoetic laughter, but if you think rw has his numbers way off, how about telling him why instead of making fun of him.  I have more than a little horse experience myself and those numbers sound pretty close to me.  Do you take yours to a hairdresser or what?

Ha! Good one, Levi. I can just picture his daughters’ horses with little ribbon curliques in their manes. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

To all – I couldn’t help myself… I hope RW dosen’t take it as a flame – wasn’t meant that way. On the other hand, when he mentioned those "pocket change" items – maybe he has BIG POCKETS and LOTS OF CHANGE!!

$2000 for a horse and $1000 for a trailer. Do you expect shots, shoeing, and so on to be significant compared to that? Perhaps unlike your daughters, I’m not real sentimental about animals (except for my Golden Retriever). If I were looking at a bottomless pit of medical expenses for an animal I’d cut my losses. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

The immortal "Dr. Strangelove", of course. That was Slim Pickins. My favorite Chill Wills movie was probably "The Rounders" (unless you count the "Over the Hill Gang" TV stuff, that was great).

On the other hand, Slim Pickens DID deliver that line in a most artful fashion in Dr. Strangelove and in one of the most memorable scenes in movie history. Wolfgang (Whose practice in ducking and covering still serves him well to this day)

Response:

Question:

Paul, there is no white water in California’s Bay Delta.  Trying to get a picture of a salmon jumping would be quite a task.  It reminds me of trolling for salmon and duck hunting on the Smith river.  When things were slow I would sit up in the front of the boat with a shotgun waiting for a salmon to jump.  It all happened so fast that I never popped a cap. — Ernie Harrison

Ernie, All summer there is white water!  Between the wind and the water skiers, thats all there is. d;-) Bill

Response:

If no one replies here, try posting to alt.binaries.pictures.animals. They always seem ready to help. -chuck o. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was hoping someone could help me find some pictures illustrating the salmon run in California’s Bay Delta. A picture of a salmon, indigenous to Northern California, jumping in white water would be perfect. The image will be converted from a jpeg or gif format into a 35mm slide and used in a presentation about California water issues at a conference at the University of Tennessee. If someone could steer me in the right direction, I would really appreciate it. Please e-mail me at Thank you. Paul Sedita

Response:

I was hoping someone could help me find some pictures illustrating the salmon run in California’s Bay Delta. A picture of a salmon, indigenous to Northern California, jumping in white water would be perfect. The image will be converted from a jpeg or gif format into a 35mm slide and used in a presentation about California water issues at a conference at the University of Tennessee. If someone could steer me in the right direction, I would really appreciate it. Please e-mail me at Thank you. Paul Sedita

Response:

Paul, there is no white water in California’s Bay Delta.  Trying to get a picture of a salmon jumping would be quite a task.  It reminds me of trolling for salmon and duck hunting on the Smith river.  When things were slow I would sit up in the front of the boat with a shotgun waiting for a salmon to jump.  It all happened so fast that I never popped a cap.     — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was hoping someone could help me find some pictures illustrating the salmon run in California’s Bay Delta. A picture of a salmon, indigenous to Northern California, jumping in white water would be perfect. The image will be converted from a jpeg or gif format into a 35mm slide and used in a presentation about California water issues at a conference at the University of Tennessee. If someone could steer me in the right direction, I would really appreciate it. Please e-mail me at Thank you. Paul Sedita

Response:

Question:

Anyone have info on fly fishing at Lake Casitas and/or along the beach in Ventura/Santa Barbara area?  Looking to do some fishing closer to home. Thanks Jeff M.

Response:

Check with Jandd Mountaineering in Santa Barbara 882-1195.  They have a fly shop and might be able to help you.  If not there is a new shop in Santa Barbara called "MacDuff’s" in the 1000 or 1100 block of State St. that should be able to help.  Surf Perch fishing is pretty good with crab patterns along the Ventura beach area. Wes along the beach – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -in Ventura/Santa Barbara area?  Looking to do some fishing closer to home. Thanks Jeff M.

Response:

Question:

How is the fishing on the Hiwasse in eastern Tennessee this time of year. Is it worth the drive from Columbus, Ohio, over the Presdient’s Day weekend?  I tried calling the Adams Fly Shop in Relience, but all I’ve gotten is an answering machine.  Would it be worthwhile to bring my driftboat?  Any information would be appreciated. Ed Orazen

Response:

How is the fishing on the Hiwasse in eastern Tennessee this time of year. Is it worth the drive from Columbus, Ohio, over the Presdient’s Day weekend?  I tried calling the Adams Fly Shop in Relience, but all I’ve gotten is an answering machine.  Would it be worthwhile to bring my driftboat?  Any information would be appreciated. Ed Orazen

Hi Ed – It can be good, but check with the folks at the Hiwassee Angler, 423 338-6263. — Visit Dave Teffeteller’s Fly Fishing Guides page http://www.olfart.com

Response:

Question:

I’m brand new to flyfishing and was wondering if getting involved in a club was the best way to get started.  I live in the "Thumb" of Michigan. Any comments would be helpful.  Thank you.  Jeff.

Response:

I’m brand new to flyfishing and was wondering if getting involved in a club was the best way to get started.  I live in the "Thumb" of Michigan.

Club membership is the best way for beginners.  There are probably locals in your state of both Trout Unlimited and the Federation of Fly Fishermen. Your quickest line would be to ask at a specialist FF store as near as possible to either your home or your likely fishing region.  There is a famous store and lodge run by "Rusty" Gates on the Ausable at Grayling, another at Traverse City etc.:  browse this newsgroup for phone numbers. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Response:

I’m brand new to flyfishing and was wondering if getting involved in a club was the best way to get started.  I live in the "Thumb" of Michigan. Any comments would be helpful.  Thank you.  Jeff.

Hi Jeff, A club is a great way to learn from friends – either casting, fishing, and tying. To locate a club near you call the Federation of Fly Fishers at 800-618-0808 and ask about a FFF club near you. A local fly shop is also another source for this information. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response:

Question:

The show is scheduled for September 11-14. In years past, Organizers, Etc. (800 283-2754) have helped attendees with travel and lodging reservations. You might give them a call for details.

Response:

Hello Simon: Contact the staff of the International Fly Tackle Dealer Show at: PO Box 370 Camden, ME 04843 Clay

Response:

I am very keen to attend the Denver Fly Fishing Trade Show in September. Could someone please furnish me with details.

The organization behind the promotion of this show is Fly Rod & Reel Magazine.  Their address is:         Fly Rod & Reel              PO Box 370              Camden, Maine 04843 You can also send E-Mail from their home page at: http://flyfishers.com/fly-rod-reel.html Regards, Trent P Roberson          Rx F Fish "For Your Good Health, Fly Fish" URL=http://www.xnet.com/~rxffish

Response:

I am very keen to attend the Denver Fly Fishing Trade Show in September. Could someone please furnish me with details.

You can write Fly Tackle Dealer Magazine at Box 370 Camden, Maine 04843. You can probably e-mail Fly Rod and Reel (same group) through their web site (sorry, don’t know the Domain Name).    -Ralph Ralph Cutter, California School of Flyfishing. http://www.flyline.com

Response:

Question:

Does anyone know if you can fly to Karluk and just camp on the beach there and fish?  There is a lodge there; I wonder if they have any monopoly on fishing in the Karluk river. This is on the southwest coast of Kodiak Island, in Alaska. Appreciate any feedback anyone can give.  

Response:

I would always be careful about camping on the beach in any location where there are substantial numbers of brown bears.  You can fly into Brooks River, for example, and camp in a USFS camp site as well as stay at the lodge.  But in the camp site, just a little way off the beach, all the food has to be cached.  And all the fish have to be cleaned in a single building, far away from the camp site. I’d check with locals on the available faciltiies at Karluk river.

04:57:08 GMT – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Does anyone know if you can fly to Karluk and just camp on the beach there and fish?  There is a lodge there; I wonder if they have any monopoly on fishing in the Karluk river.

Response:

| | Does anyone know if you can fly to Karluk and just camp on the beach | there and fish?  There is a lodge there; I wonder if they have any | monopoly on fishing in the Karluk river. | Hello, I was on the Karluk for a week this fall. Drifted to the mouth and camped on the beach. There are bears (big bears !) and you do need to be careful. Limited cabins (primitive) are availble at Portage. The real monopoly if you want to call it that is access. Very interesting and productive river. Regards, Jeff

Response:

Question:

Re carp on dry flies.  I know that in Sydney, Australia, some people (Christ only knows why) fish for carp using a dry fly which imitates bread crumbs being thrown on the water.  Carp of up to 30 pounds are caught. Incidentally they are caught in a park where other people make a habit of feeding the fish bread.  Please tell me do you guys really fish for carp or do you just catch them by accident.  In Australia they are classified as vermin and you are required by law to kill any carp you catch.  There’s nothing worse that spending a morning fishing for trout in a lake and catching about 100 carp. Peter W

We’ve had a thread going on about defining a good fisherman recently. You get my vote for defining "BAD fisherman."                                 Mark — <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Harris Space Systems            ::                         Melbourne, FL

Response:

Re carp on dry flies.  I know that in Sydney, Australia, some people (Christ only knows why) fish for carp using a dry fly which imitates bread crumbs being thrown on the water.  Carp of up to 30 pounds are caught. Incidentally they are caught in a park where other people make a habit of feeding the fish bread.  Please tell me do you guys really fish for carp or do you just catch them by accident.  In Australia they are classified as vermin and you are required by law to kill any carp you catch.  There’s nothing worse that spending a morning fishing for trout in a lake and catching about 100 carp. Peter W

A few months ago I was talking to Michael Clark at his shop in Lyons Colorado, and he told me about a competition that some of his friends were at at the time in (I think) Montana. It was a weekend event of Flyfishing for Carp! It started out as a joke, but it caught on among some serious flyfishers and now it gets competitors from all over the place. I would love to attend some time. I wonder if any trout got in the way of the Carp they were after? Someone out there must know more about it. Perhaps I’ll ask Mike for more details in case anyone is interested. It was in May or June I think. John Geirach was part of the Lyons contingency and his team placed 3rd or so. —     o,  ,,   ,      | Bernie Bernstein                    | ,    ,,     LO/  `,/ `    ,| University of Colorado at Boulder   |/ `,,/  `    O./  ’  / . `, / | home: 303-444-3168                  |     / ` `  ,.

Response:

Amazingly, it is true. Carp hit dry flies. My neighbor and I each had ponds in our yard with bass, trout, and carp. In the late summer, the carp would come to the surface to feed on willow leaves from a tree that hung down over the pond. I tried everything to catch those fish without success (the bass and trout were easy but much smaller!). Finally, I put on a Hornberg – its a goofy looking fly that is normally fished wet but vaguely resembles a willow leaf, so I fished dry. Wham! I got several 5 to 15 pound carp on the surface. Careful stalking and reasonable casting were also important. My opinion of the fish did change a bit. Chris Beatty

Response:

Re carp on dry flies.  I know that in Sydney, Australia, some people (Christ only knows why) fish for carp using a dry fly which imitates bread crumbs being thrown on the water.  Carp of up to 30 pounds are caught. Incidentally they are caught in a park where other people make a habit of feeding the fish bread.  Please tell me do you guys really fish for carp or do you just catch them by accident.  In Australia they are classified as vermin and you are required by law to kill any carp you catch.  There’s nothing worse that spending a morning fishing for trout in a lake and catching about 100 carp. Peter W

Response: