Question:

Jeff,   Just so I have the details correctly: 1 dry and 1 wet caddis, in orange. Size can be anything the tyer wishes?                               Tom

Response:

Jeff,   Just so I have the details correctly: 1 dry and 1 wet caddis, in orange. Size can be anything the tyer wishes?                               Tom

okay.  see how agreeable i am… jeff (btw, yer now on the rules committee)

Response:

jeff writes: btw, yer now on the rules committee

man, this place is getting like my workplace! People calling me dumbo and maggot, now the committees!  AARRRGH!                                  Tom now, about that matter of defining "orange"

Response:

Tom writes: now, about that matter of defining "orange"

Yes.  And perhaps a recipe….. Dave

Response:

Dave writes: Yes.  And perhaps a recipe…..

no, that would take all of the creativity out of it.                          Tom

Response:

Tom writes: Dave writes: Yes.  And perhaps a recipe….. no, that would take all of the creativity out of it.

Aha!  I see….. heh, heh, heh.

Response:

So can i go buy some caddis and spay paint them orange ???Are these going to be distrubited to all entries into the rodeo ? Also bareback or saddle broncs? And i would imagine there will be alot of bull there also.                    Handyman Mike           Standing in a river waving a stick

Response:

jeff writes: btw, yer now on the rules committee man, this place is getting like my workplace! People calling me dumbo and maggot, now the committees!  AARRRGH!                                  Tom now, about that matter of defining "orange"

If you’re tying Jeffies flies, I think you should be *real* creative.

Response:

Stan writes: If you’re tying Jeffies flies, I think you should be *real* creative.

well, shoot! Within a minute or two after scrambling down the bank, they will all be wet flies anyway!                                 Tom p.s. I am tying flies for myownself, thanks!

Response:

Stan writes: If you’re tying Jeffies flies, I think you should be *real* creative.

hmmm… may i suggest a bunch of orange thread and deerhair on a bottle opener? i lose bottle openers some kinda bad. p.s. I am tying flies for myownself, thanks!

kinda kills the swap idea then don’t it? jeff

Response:

Jeff writes: p.s. I am tying flies for myownself, thanks! kinda kills the swap idea then don’t it?

sorry if you misunderstood, I just wasn’t tying "proxy" flies for others. However, can someone clear up this confusion? Are we having a swap or also a one-fly angling contest at Blue Rock Hole? Ignorant little shit which I am, I am starting to get murky on the details.                                  Tom

Response:

Jeff writes: p.s. I am tying flies for myownself, thanks! kinda kills the swap idea then don’t it? sorry if you misunderstood, I just wasn’t tying "proxy" flies for others. However, can someone clear up this confusion? Are we having a swap or also a one-fly angling contest at Blue Rock Hole? Ignorant little shit which I am, I am starting to get murky on the details.                                  Tom

sorry about the murky details – it’s residue from the anticlave thing. anyway, yer the rules committee, so issue a ruling.  i thought we were tying, swapping, and then fishing the swaps (orange caddis only) at the axelrad rodeo at the blue rock hole. jeff

Response:

jeff clarifies: orry about the murky details – it’s residue from the anticlave thing. anyway, yer the rules committee, so issue a ruling.  i thought we were tying, swapping, and then fishing the swaps (orange caddis only) at the axelrad rodeo at the blue rock hole.

Wow, is this stuff complicated!  I mean, I invited you damned confeder….er, I mean Southerners up here, and now we have this convoluted mess!  Good Lord!  I say we tie them, swap them and then all go and get drunk after we drop them in the woods someplace whilst trying to sort them into boxes. Pretty much what is going to happen anyway, I figure. Alright, I will go along with your version, but don’t say I didn’t warn you, this is going to get Ugly. Good of you to take care of those tshirts for me.                                     Tom

Response:

Hearing about this rodeo, I couldn’t resist… Two cowboys are out on the range talking about their favorite sex positions. One says, "I think I enjoy the rodeo position the best." "I don’t think I have ever heard of that one," says the other cowboy. "What is it?" "Well, it’s where you get your wife down on all fours and you mount her from behind. Then you reach around and cup each one  of her  breasts in your hands and whisper in her ear, ‘Boy, these feel just like your sister’s.’ Then you try and hold on for 8 seconds." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well alrighty then… here it is.  Participants must tie one dry and one wet/nymph.  Only those attending the Penns clave can join the swap, but, you can have a surrogate (only one) tie your flies for you to be sent to me (only way wayno and pj could participate).  So, sign up, name your seconds (the one whats gonna tie your flies) and send them to me. I’ll send my snail mail address to those participating. Now, before anybody else makes the solicitation, I need a surrogate to tie my flies – with full attribution to you, of course!  Wolfgang, Mike Connor, rw, willi (if you aren’t attending), warren (if you aren’t attending), daytripper, petah c, somebody…i know one of you guys (or girls?) will be happy to help me out <G. Those who sign up and who attend the Penns clave automatically will be entered as participants in the 1st Annual Axelrad Memorial Bizarre Fly Rodeo at the Blue Rock Hole.  You will be allowed to use only orange caddis – dry and/or wet/nymph – for the duration of the rodeo at the Blue Rock Hole.  Further details will be announced by the Board of Directors, once we figure out who the hell they are gonna be. jeff

Response:

(SPLORK VANG MU!) I’ll try to remember that one Jeff.  Good one. bruce h

Response:

Well alrighty then… here it is.  Participants must tie one dry and one wet/nymph.  Only those attending the Penns clave can join the swap, but, you can have a surrogate (only one) tie your flies for you to be sent to me (only way wayno and pj could participate).  So, sign up, name your seconds (the one whats gonna tie your flies) and send them to me. I’ll send my snail mail address to those participating. Now, before anybody else makes the solicitation, I need a surrogate to tie my flies – with full attribution to you, of course!  Wolfgang, Mike Connor, rw, willi (if you aren’t attending), warren (if you aren’t attending), daytripper, petah c, somebody…i know one of you guys (or girls?) will be happy to help me out <G. Those who sign up and who attend the Penns clave automatically will be entered as participants in the 1st Annual Axelrad Memorial Bizarre Fly Rodeo at the Blue Rock Hole.  You will be allowed to use only orange caddis – dry and/or wet/nymph – for the duration of the rodeo at the Blue Rock Hole.  Further details will be announced by the Board of Directors, once we figure out who the hell they are gonna be. jeff

Response:

Question:

Mark Rey, long time timber lobbyist is in charge of our forests, and starting  to work on weakening all logging laws: Former Timber corporation lobbyist now head of our national forests: http://www.missoulian.com/archives/index.inn?loc=detail&doc=/2002/Jun… A natural split with Bush- many longtime  conservative EPA officials are quitting: http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-000039065jun03.story Lawmakers offer bi-partisan protection for national forests: http://ens-news.com/ens/jun2002/2002-06-05-07.asp Congress recognizes the voice of the American  people, offers bill and recognizes the 2 million  public comments favoring roadless protection, concedes  60 percent of republicans favor roadless protection as well: http://www.enn.com/news/wire-stories/2002/06/06062002/reu_47454.asp Congress, industry recognize the vast  majority of american citizens favor protecting our last wild and unroaded forests: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/73893_pot08.shtml — Sent by sonvolt55  from  hotmail subpart from com This is a spam protected message. Please answer with reference header. Posted via http://www.usenet-replayer.com/cgi/content/new

Response:

Garbage deleted I think I will go cut down some trees tomorrow in honor of this crossposting tree hugging idiot.

Response:

Garbage deleted I think I will go cut down some trees tomorrow in honor of this crossposting tree hugging idiot.

It doesn’t count unless it lands on an endangered species…

Response:

Garbage deleted I think I will go cut down some trees tomorrow in honor of this crossposting tree hugging idiot. It doesn’t count unless it lands on an endangered species…

Careful Tripper; a glance at your medical records suggests YOU are on the list.     Wolfgang

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Garbage deleted I think I will go cut down some trees tomorrow in honor of this crossposting tree hugging idiot. It doesn’t count unless it lands on an endangered species… Careful Tripper; a glance at your medical records suggests YOU are on the list.     Wolfgang

No doubt I’d be fatally injured before I even got in range of mr. bob’s felling… /daytripper (the hits just keep on coming

Response:

"\ I think I will go cut down some trees tomorrow in honor of this crossposting tree hugging idiot.\

I cut some trees down  today. Nothing like some responsible land management.  By the way, Muskie does hunt, fish and cut down trees. He isn’t the granola hippie  some would think. More like a sportsman with brains.

Response:

"\ I think I will go cut down some trees tomorrow in honor of this crossposting tree hugging idiot.\ I cut some trees down  today. Nothing like some responsible land management.  By the way, Muskie does hunt, fish and cut down trees.

If it was nothing like responsible land management, why did you do it? He isn’t the granola hippie  some would think. More like a sportsman with brains.

More like a ten year old, with no friends, and a ghetto blaster.

Response:

I cut some trees down  today. Nothing like some responsible land management.  By the way, Muskie does hunt, fish and cut down trees. He isn’t the granola hippie  some would think. More like a sportsman with brains.

SPLORK! The musk thang is an obnoxious jerk who gets his kicks out of baiting anyone who might disagree with him with his outrageous headers. He is totally opposed to any requests to limit or curtail his off topic behavoir. He regularly morphs his nick to get around the filters of those who attempt to ignore him, and he hides behind free posting services and conceals his email because his behavior violates most ISP’s terms. He has lost a couple of accounts in the past due to the volume of complaints regarding his behavior. I could care less if he’s a hunter, a fisherman or a cross dressing dwarf, he’s still an annoying insect. If he had brains, he’d be more considerate of those who don’t want to see his posts instead of using periodic nick morphing to get around our filters. Flyfish

Response:

\More like a ten year old, with no friends, and a ghetto blaster.\  I have had the pleasure of fishing with Muskie on several occasions, twice on the San Juan and once on the Kootenai. He has a gorgeous blonde girlfriend(ive never seen so many stares in my direction thanks to walking with her on several occasions), a nice ride and an even nicer selection of fly rods. Perhaps you are jealous of that? He is a positive, hopeful person  and people seem to gravitate to him. He, like I also have the glorious choices of fishing in a still unspoiled setting, which is something you don’t have Mike. Perhaps if someone in Europe had spoken up and made noise a long time ago the fishing and habitat wouldnt be so poor now, and the choices so few.

Response:

Musty Ass has spoken.

Response:

\More like a ten year old, with no friends, and a ghetto blaster.\  I have had the pleasure of fishing with Muskie on several occasions, twice on the San Juan and once on the Kootenai.

I could not care less about his girlfriend or his fly-rods. The only thing I care about, is the fact that he costs me money with his constant Usenet abuse. The problem is solved for me at least. I have unsubscribed from rec.outdoors.fishing.fly  as it is simply too expensive to download all the rubbish. I will occasionally have a look in, using Google ( where I don

Question:

Seeking infro. on salt water fly-fishing in the DR, thankx in advance, Stan

Response:

J R Hartley is the person to ask

Seeking infro. on salt water fly-fishing in the DR, thankx in advance, Stan

Response:

HA,HA Cougar Ric! How many years have you been waiting to say that?? — –Sent via BritishExpats Forums: http://britishexpats.com

Response:

lol, i couldn’t resist it! — Tune into my radio station. Playing the best in rock 24 hours a day! http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?autostart=cougar_ric – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HA,HA Cougar Ric! How many years have you been waiting to say that?? — –Sent via BritishExpats Forums: http://britishexpats.com

Response:

Question:

Putting all that together, I gather that I haven’t broken a rod while casting because I use a roll cast or retrieve enough of a wet line to avoid that overload on the lift, and I’m never over bending the rod while casting.  The fatal errors come in the heat of battle. The more I think about it, I see what you mean about casting being the heaviest force on the rod. Thanks for your help, Chas

Response:

The force generated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod.

If it’s done right the rod is already fully loaded and you are just accelerating the line and, more importantly, the tip of the line. — Charlie…

Response:

The force generated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod. If it’s done right the rod is already fully loaded and you are just accelerating the line and, more importantly, the tip of the line. — Charlie…

Charlie, Your analysis of hauling to increase line speed and thus increasing casting distance is correct.  If it was a matter of loading the rod as rw says the caster would only have to apply more power to accomplish this. Ernie

Response:

rw, If the haul is done correctly the rod is fully loaded and any additional speed must be imparted to the line by foreword movement of your arm and by pulling "hauling" the line through the guides. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to doubt that additional rod loading is minimal, Mike. The only way the caster can increase the speed of the line is by accelerating it. The only way he can accelerate it is by exerting a force on the line at the rod tip. (F=ma). An equal and opposite force is exerted on the rod at the tip, which results in loading the rod.

Response:

Charlie, Your analysis of hauling to increase line speed and thus increasing casting distance is correct.  If it was a matter of loading the rod as rw says the caster would only have to apply more power to accomplish this. Ernie

I’m not saying that the *point* of hauling is to load the rod. I’m saying only that one *effect* of hauling is additional loading of the rod. It has to have that effect — there’s no way around it. Hauling accelerates the line, which generates a force on the rod tip. (F=ma) Consider three cases: 1. After loading the rod on the forward cast (with no hauling), you accidently lose your grip on the line with your noncasting hand. The acceleration of the line vanishes, the force on the rod tip vanishes, the rod straightens without appreciably affecting the line, and the line falls on the water in a bloody mess. 2. You make a normal forward cast without hauling, just holding the line tight. A force is applied to the line by the rod tip, causing acceleration of the line. An equal and opposite force is applied to the rod top, causing loading of the rod. 3. You make a forward cast while hauling. The action of the noncasting hand, pulling on the line, causes an *additional* acceleration of the line. This additional acceleration causes an *additional* force on the rod tip, resulting in additional loading of the rod. If you ignore things like friction, you could replace the effect (on the rod) of hauling by a transient additional stress in the line, and the rod would have no way of "knowing" the difference. It would simply load more. (The line would behave very differently, though.) These three cases are really just points in a continuum. Whether you consider this additional rod loading to be significant is your business, but it’s nonetheless real. This is just elementary physics. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Whether you consider this additional rod loading to be significant is your business, but it’s nonetheless real. This is just elementary physics.

It also ignores the fact that the line is not attached to the tip of the rod and that the rod is very nearly, if not fully, loaded. There may be some additional loading, but what makes the haul work is the additional acceleration applied directly to the line. This is just elementary geometry<g. — Charlie…

Response:

http://www.mikeconnor.de You didn’t comment on my second reason.  Does this make sense to you?      A second reason that the loading is not the key is that you could achieve the same additional loading if you just applied a bit more casting force.  We know that a man of modest strength and a good haul can outcast a muscle man who doesn’t haul. Thanks Chas

This is also correct.    The amount of linespeed any particular rod may generate in a flyline by direct action is limited by various things, one of which is the strength and speed of the caster. ( assuming once again perfect technique). If you haul, you do not increase the loading, as you do not use direct rod action, but your line hand, and you do not require any more strength and speed to obtain similar results to someone who does not haul. However, a powerful person with good technique will always cast better ( assuming distance casting here of course), than a weaker person, simply because he has more power per se. TL MC

Response:

– "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If it were so that hauling dramatically increased rod loading, then hauling on an already optimally loaded rod would cause it to fold up. I’ve been mean to a few rods at times, putting a #10 line in a #8 rod and casting Pike flies for instance, but I’ve never managed to break one casting.  Is this because most of my fishing has been with Graphite or Glass? I have to dig back into some old Physics books to get the details, but I remember stress and strain curves for various materials showing a linear relationship until a limit was released, and then additional stress produced excessive strain until the material failed.  Certainly with an old shoe or a fish on the line and a stout leader it’s easy enough to pass the elastic limit, but does that happen in casting as well? Thanks Chas

If you ask most people at what point a rod is stressed the most, then many of them will tell you that it is in playing a fish.  This is not the case. The basic maximum stress condition for a rod, when used correctly, is when casting. Most modern rods can stand a great deal more stress in this respect than is generally realised.  What they can not stand is shock loading under stress. If you jerk a rod when it is already loaded with a "dead weight", either played out fish, old shoe etc etc then it is highly likely to break. Solid glass fibre rods were probably the most robust rods to date.  Carbon fibre suffers from one or two disadvantages here. Even a slight nick in the surface of a blank can cause sudden massive failure, sometimes the blank will simply shatter without warning. More rods are broken by various extraneous factors than by casting.  The failure might indeed occur when casting, but is usually the result of some other fault. Car doors, falling down on the rod, excessive heat, leaning a rod on a stone and nicking it, ramming the tip into a tree, etc etc. Constantly overloading a rod by casting full lines etc, which are way over the rated weight will usually cause a blank failure as well of course. Most rods broken while actually fishing, do so for a number of reasons, the main one directly fishing related, is getting snagged, putting a good bend in the rod, and then jerking it.  This will quite easily snap a carbon fibre blank, or shatter it . The sudden extreme shock loading under stress is more than the rod can handle. The second most common reason is trying to lift a long line, especially a sunken one, without first roll-casting the line to the surface. Attempting to do this will break most rods. The sudden massive loading is once again more than they can stand. The third most common reason is attempting to land a fish by holding the rod almost vertically, and allowing it to bend over ninety degrees from the vertical. The fish plunges, and the rod simply snaps at the tip. No major exertions are required here by the way, doing the same thing while threading a line through the rings  will also snap a rod tip quite easily. What often happens here, is that the rod is bent, and then the blank "rolls" suddenly changing the stress patterns in the blank walls, and causing it to break. Occasionally rods are broken when fighting very large fish, but this is again an error on the part of the angler. It should normally be impossible for a fish to break a rod, given sufficient angling skill, and correct tackle.. Holding a rod in the fingers and bending it, is also very dangerous. Especially with fine tips. Assuming a rod in good condition, no nicks etc. And also assuming correctly matched line, and reasonable casting, and correct use, then the likelihood of breaking a rod is actually very low indeed. TL MC

Response:

"Mike Connor" wrote This is not a matter of taking sides I hope. Otherwise I will simply retire from the discussion. This is a technical discussion and nothing more.

Of course, my sloppy wording betrayed me. Apart from that, you are perfectly correct. Although the rod loading generated by hauling is inconsequential, irrespective of the current loading state of the rod.  When the rod is already optimally loaded, and as you say at its stiffest, the added loading generated by hauling is so small as to be insignificant. This is just as well, as if hauling did in fact appreciably increase rod loading, then an already optimally loaded rod would simply fold up under the added strain.

You didn’t comment on my second reason.  Does this make sense to you?      A second reason that the loading is not the key is that you could achieve the same additional loading if you just applied a bit more casting force.  We know that a man of modest strength and a good haul can outcast a muscle man who doesn’t haul.

Thanks Chas

Response:

If it were so that hauling dramatically increased rod loading, then hauling on an already optimally loaded rod would cause it to fold up.

I’ve been mean to a few rods at times, putting a #10 line in a #8 rod and casting Pike flies for instance, but I’ve never managed to break one casting.  Is this because most of my fishing has been with Graphite or Glass? I have to dig back into some old Physics books to get the details, but I remember stress and strain curves for various materials showing a linear relationship until a limit was released, and then additional stress produced excessive strain until the material failed.  Certainly with an old shoe or a fish on the line and a stout leader it’s easy enough to pass the elastic limit, but does that happen in casting as well? Thanks Chas

Response:

When you haul you’re loading the rod by making it work harder against the inertia of the line. I don’t really think "shortening the line" is a good way to look at it. A haul takes in maybe two or three feet of line, and you have maybe 30 feet or more out. I agree with what you’re saying, but I can "cast" nearly thirty feet by using only my right arm as the rod (with fingers in O shape to act as the tiptop) and a lefthand haul. So there’s more to it than just the rod tip.

Your finger is playing the role of the rod tip in that case. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 6:33 AM This would be correct if the line was fixed at the rod tip. When hauling it is not. It moves more or less freely through the guides. The force applied is applied directly to the line, independent of the rod loading.  The "equal and opposite reaction" in this case, is immediate line acceleration due to a direct pull, and is independent of the rod. Some of this force( a relatively small amount actually ) does indeed go towards the total rod loading, but compared to the force which is transferred to the line, this may be more or less ignored. I’m afraid you’re missing the point, Mike. It’s really irrelevant whether the line is fixed or free to move through the guides. There is a force exerted on the line, by the rod tip, that accelerates the line. There is a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the rod tip. That force has the effect of bending the rod. The greater the force, the more the line is accelerated, and the more the rod is bent (i.e., loaded). None of this force can be "ignored". The force generated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod. The acceleration is induced by a direct pull on the line, and is only possible because the line is indeed able to move independent of the rod tip. The point is, that when you haul, the line moves, and the rod does not, or only slightly. Thread your rod up with a line. Lay the line out and point the rod straight down the line.  Grasp the line at the butt, and pull sharply. The rod has not been loaded in any way, but the line will spring towards you. The direct pull moves the mass directly. Do the same thing holding the rod at an angle to the line, The same thing occurs, with a relatively small proportion of the applied force bending the rod tip slightly, if at all. Progressively increase the angle until the rod is at right angles to the line. At this point the maximum possible rod loading, under these circumstances, will occur when you pull on the line, nevertheless, the majority of the energy involved still goes towards moving the line, the tip will barely move. It is quite immaterial how hard, how long, or how fast you pull. The energy is transferred directly to the line. The rod is barely affected. The angle of the rod changes the vector, and the rod loads a little, due to friction mainly, but the majority of the energy involved goes into moving the line. If it were so that hauling dramatically increased rod loading, then hauling on an already optimally loaded rod would cause it to fold up. This is not the case. The result of hauling is dramatically increased linespeed, because of the direct application of force to the line.  You dont have to believe me, just try it. This is also incidentally why striking a fish with a pull on the line is better than doing it with the rod. The force applied is transferred more or less directly, with very little loss, to the hook point. The rod does not move much,  and  is not loaded appreciably. Only the line moves. If you strike with the rod, you must first load it, before you can apply any force at all, and because of the mechanical disadvantage involved, the force you transfer will be minimal, and indirect. The principles are the same in both cases. In one case you are transferring energy to accelerate a mass using the short end of a flexible lever, and in the other case you are doing it by giving a direct pull.  The lever is in the second case quite immaterial, and may be ignored. TL MC Again, there’s no "direct" pull on the line. ALL the force affecting the airborne line is generated at the rod tip. If you lay  a piece of string along a table top, and pull one end, depending on the force and speed with which you pull, you can accelerate the string quite easily, giving it very considerable momentum. The string accelerates immediately, simply as a result of the pull. No rods etc are involved. The only force involved is the direct pull. Sure, but that’s not what’s happening when the line is strung though a rod. You (the caster) can exert a force on the line in your left (hauling) hand, but the only force that can be exerted on the airborne line *outside* the rod is exerted at the rod tip. Before hauling was discovered, the line momentum was indeed totally dependent on the acceleration of the rod tip. With hauling, this is no longer the case.  When hauling, the extra line velocity is independent of the rod tip. I’m not saying *anything* about the acceleration of the rod tip. I’m only saying that the force on the line (outside the rod) is generated ONLY at the rod tip. Where else? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

This is not a matter of taking sides I hope. Otherwise I will simply retire from the discussion. This is a technical discussion and nothing more. Apart from that, you are perfectly correct. Although the rod loading generated by hauling is inconsequential, irrespective of the current loading state of the rod.  When the rod is already optimally loaded, and as you say at its stiffest, the added loading generated by hauling is so small as to be insignificant. This is just as well, as if hauling did in fact appreciably increase rod loading, then an already optimally loaded rod would simply fold up under the added strain. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RW,     I have to side with Mike here, for a couple reasons.  If the haul is done right, it happens when the rod is fully loaded.  At that point it’s at it’s stiffest, and the flex isn’t increased much by the added force.  The reaction force is actually the force you apply with your line hand when you haul the line in.      A second reason that the loading is not the key is that you could achieve the same additional loading if you just applied a bit more casting force.  We know that a man of modest strength and a good haul can outcast a muscle man who doesn’t haul.      Also, there is direct pull on the line, the guides are like pulleys.  If you consider an 18 inch haul, and watch the effect on the rod tip, I bet it’s drawn back less than 4 inches.  The other 14 inches were directly applied to the line. Chas

Response:

This would be correct if the line was fixed at the rod tip. When hauling it is not. It moves more or less freely through the guides. The force applied is applied directly to the line, independent of the rod loading.  The "equal and opposite reaction" in this case, is immediate line acceleration due to a direct pull, and is independent of the rod. Some of this force( a relatively small amount actually ) does indeed go towards the total rod loading, but compared to the force which is transferred to the line, this may be more or less ignored.

I’m afraid you’re missing the point, Mike. It’s really irrelevant whether the line is fixed or free to move through the guides. There is a force exerted on the line, by the rod tip, that accelerates the line. There is a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the rod tip. That force has the effect of bending the rod. The greater the force, the more the line is accelerated, and the more the rod is bent (i.e., loaded). None of this force can be "ignored". The force generated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod. The acceleration is induced by a direct pull on the line, and is only possible because the line is indeed able to move independent of the rod tip.

Again, there’s no "direct" pull on the line. ALL the force affecting the airborne line is generated at the rod tip. If you lay  a piece of string along a table top, and pull one end, depending on the force and speed with which you pull, you can accelerate the string quite easily, giving it very considerable momentum. The string accelerates immediately, simply as a result of the pull. No rods etc are involved. The only force involved is the direct pull.

Sure, but that’s not what’s happening when the line is strung though a rod. You (the caster) can exert a force on the line in your left (hauling) hand, but the only force that can be exerted on the airborne line *outside* the rod is exerted at the rod tip. Before hauling was discovered, the line momentum was indeed totally dependent on the acceleration of the rod tip. With hauling, this is no longer the case.  When hauling, the extra line velocity is independent of the rod tip.

I’m not saying *anything* about the acceleration of the rod tip. I’m only saying that the force on the line (outside the rod) is generated ONLY at the rod tip. Where else? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Additional rod loading when hauling is  minimal.  Most of the force used is transmitted directly to the line, increasing its speed immediately and drastically. Momentum = Mass * Velocity

I have to doubt that additional rod loading is minimal, Mike. The only way the caster can increase the speed of the line is by accelerating it. The only way he can accelerate it is by exerting a force on the line at the rod tip. (F=ma). An equal and opposite force is exerted on the rod at the tip, which results in loading the rod. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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This would be correct if the line was fixed at the rod tip. When hauling it is not. It moves more or less freely through the guides. The force applied is applied directly to the line, independent of the rod loading.  The "equal and opposite reaction" in this case, is immediate line acceleration due to a direct pull, and is independent of the rod. Some of this force( a relatively small amount actually ) does indeed go towards the total rod loading, but compared to the force which is transferred to the line, this may be more or less ignored. The acceleration is induced by a direct pull on the line, and is only possible because the line is indeed able to move independent of the rod tip. If you lay  a piece of string along a table top, and pull one end, depending on the force and speed with which you pull, you can accelerate the string quite easily, giving it very considerable momentum. The string accelerates immediately, simply as a result of the pull. No rods etc are involved. The only force involved is the direct pull. Before hauling was discovered, the line momentum was indeed totally dependent on the acceleration of the rod tip. With hauling, this is no longer the case.  When hauling, the extra line velocity is independent of the rod tip. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Additional rod loading when hauling is  minimal.  Most of the force used is transmitted directly to the line, increasing its speed immediately and drastically. Momentum = Mass * Velocity I have to doubt that additional rod loading is minimal, Mike. The only way the caster can increase the speed of the line is by accelerating it. The only way he can accelerate it is by exerting a force on the line at the rod tip. (F=ma). An equal and opposite force is exerted on the rod at the tip, which results in loading the rod. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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One other point.  Inertia is the direct measurement of a mass.  The only way to change inertia is to change the mass. One may not "break" inertia.  One may overcome it, ( move the mass) by applying force. Newtons laws explain this relatively simply. The first law states that:  " A body will remain at rest, or continue to move steadily in a straight line without acceleration unless it is acted on by an unopposed force. The second law states: "The acceleration of a body depends directly on the force acting on it but inversely upon its mass" The third law states: "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" Force is a measure of the rate at which momentum is changed. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Additional rod loading when hauling is  minimal.  Most of the force used is transmitted directly to the line, increasing its speed immediately and drastically.

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I sure hope you’re not breaking your wrist with this arm cast, which would be very bad form, you know. JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree with what you’re saying, but I can "cast" nearly thirty feet by using only my right arm as the rod (with fingers in O shape to act as the tiptop) and a lefthand haul. So there’s more to it than just the rod tip. In fact, in a blindfold test I can’t tell the difference between a Cabelas rod and my own arm

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So, In your estimation, does your wrist have a fast action or slow action and how does it affect your distance?

Well, it’s not a limp wrist I’ll tell you that much And while it *is* acting as the rod tip, it’s not loading in the same sense as a fly rod is it? Isn’t most of the line action due to acceleration because I’m pulling on it (and not wrist flip caused by the pulling)? –Steve

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RW,     I have to side with Mike here, for a couple reasons.  If the haul is done right, it happens when the rod is fully loaded.  At that point it’s at it’s stiffest, and the flex isn’t increased much by the added force.  The reaction force is actually the force you apply with your line hand when you haul the line in.      A second reason that the loading is not the key is that you could achieve the same additional loading if you just applied a bit more casting force.  We know that a man of modest strength and a good haul can outcast a muscle man who doesn’t haul.      Also, there is direct pull on the line, the guides are like pulleys.  If you consider an 18 inch haul, and watch the effect on the rod tip, I bet it’s drawn back less than 4 inches.  The other 14 inches were directly applied to the line. Chas

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This would be correct if the line was fixed at the rod tip. When hauling it is not. It moves more or less freely through the guides. The force applied is applied directly to the line, independent of the rod loading.  The "equal and opposite reaction" in this case, is immediate line acceleration due to a direct pull, and is independent of the rod. Some of this force( a relatively small amount actually ) does indeed go towards the total rod loading, but compared to the force which is transferred to the line, this may be more or less ignored. I’m afraid you’re missing the point, Mike. It’s really irrelevant whether the line is fixed or free to move through the guides. There is a force exerted on the line, by the rod tip, that accelerates the line. There is a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the rod tip. That force has the effect of bending the rod. The greater the force, the more the line is accelerated, and the more the rod is bent (i.e., loaded). None of this force can be "ignored". The force gener ated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod. The acceleration is induced by a direct pull on the line, and is only possible because the line is indeed able to move independent of the rod tip. Again, there’s no "direct" pull on the line. ALL the force affecting the airborne line is generated at the rod tip. If you lay  a piece of string along a table top, and pull one end, depending on the force and speed with which you pull, you can accelerate the string quite easily, giving it very considerable momentum. The string accelerates immediately, simply as a result of the pull. No rods etc are involved. The only force involved is the direct pull. Sure, but that’s not what’s happening when the line is strung though a rod. You (the caster) can exert a force on the line in your left (hauling) hand, but the only force that can be exerted on the airborne line *outside* the rod is exerted at the rod tip. Before hauling was discovered, the line momentum was indeed totally dependent on the acceleration of the rod tip. With hauling, this is no longer the case.  When hauling, the extra line velocity is independent of the rod tip. I’m not saying *anything* about the acceleration of the rod tip. I’m only saying that the force on the line (outside the rod) is generated ONLY at the rod tip. Where else? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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So, In your estimation, does your wrist have a fast action or slow action and how does it affect your distance? Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you haul you’re loading the rod by making it work harder against the inertia of the line. I don’t really think "shortening the line" is a good way to look at it. A haul takes in maybe two or three feet of line, and you have maybe 30 feet or more out. I agree with what you’re saying, but I can "cast" nearly thirty feet by using only my right arm as the rod (with fingers in O shape to act as the tiptop) and a lefthand haul. So there’s more to it than just the rod tip. In fact, in a blindfold test I can’t tell the difference between a Cabelas rod and my own arm –Steve

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Additional rod loading when hauling is  minimal.  Most of the force used is transmitted directly to the line, increasing its speed immediately and drastically. Momentum = Mass * Velocity A very short haul of a couple of inches is sufficient to increase line speed drastically, and thus increase its momentum, allowing the mass to be thrown a greater distance. The harder(force), longer ( distance) and faster( time) the haul, the greater the resulting line momentum, independent of the rod.  The same effect may be observed without using a rod at all. Shortening line decreases the mass, and therefore reduces momentum.  As far as hauling is concerned this is more or less negligible. Shortening the line by even a couple of feet, does not reduce its mass by much. If you overload the rod, the haul will still be effective, but due to the rod already being overloaded, additional strain, even slight, due to shock loading might damage it. Otherwise the length of line ( total mass ) is irrelevant when hauling. The effect is the same with or without a rod, and with any length of line. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From what I’ve always been told,  the reason that hauling improves the line speed is that additional loading is put into the rod by the action of hauling. Obviously the hauling is done during the power phases fore and aft.  An immediate reaction of the hauling action is a shortening of the line,  and therefore an increase in velocity:  Is it at all significant compared to the additional loading of the rod?  Is the inertia of the line broken by the haul and therefore allows the spring of the rod to work on an already moving line? I suppose the way to test it out would be to overline a rod and cast a sufficient length of line to overload the rod.  Would hauling be effective? According to the simple haul/loading spring idea,  the haul would (perhaps) be ineffective, though the shortening of the line (derived from the haul) would still prevail?

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When you haul you’re loading the rod by making it work harder against the inertia of the line. I don’t really think "shortening the line" is a good way to look at it. A haul takes in maybe two or three feet of line, and you have maybe 30 feet or more out.

I agree with what you’re saying, but I can "cast" nearly thirty feet by using only my right arm as the rod (with fingers in O shape to act as the tiptop) and a lefthand haul. So there’s more to it than just the rod tip. In fact, in a blindfold test I can’t tell the difference between a Cabelas rod and my own arm –Steve

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From what I’ve always been told,  the reason that hauling improves the line speed is that additional loading is put into the rod by the action of hauling. Obviously the hauling is done during the power phases fore and aft.  An immediate reaction of the hauling action is a shortening of the line,  and therefore an increase in velocity:  Is it at all significant compared to the additional loading of the rod?  Is the inertia of the line broken by the haul and therefore allows the spring of the rod to work on an already moving line? I suppose the way to test it out would be to overline a rod and cast a sufficient length of line to overload the rod.  Would hauling be effective? According to the simple haul/loading spring idea,  the haul would (perhaps) be ineffective, though the shortening of the line (derived from the haul) would still prevail?

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From what I’ve always been told,  the reason that hauling improves the line speed is that additional loading is put into the rod by the action of hauling. Obviously the hauling is done during the power phases fore and aft.  An immediate reaction of the hauling action is a shortening of the line,  and therefore an increase in velocity:  Is it at all significant compared to the additional loading of the rod?  Is the inertia of the line broken by the haul and therefore allows the spring of the rod to work on an already moving line?

When you haul you’re loading the rod by making it work harder against the inertia of the line. I don’t really think "shortening the line" is a good way to look at it. A haul takes in maybe two or three feet of line, and you have maybe 30 feet or more out. Imagine what would happen if the end of the line were attached to a springy tree branch when you hauled. (An all too frequent occurence in my case.) The rod would bend even if you didn’t move it forward. By hauling, you cause an increase in the force exerted by the rod tip on the line. When you haul in the normal, more felicitous case, more or less the same thing happens, but the resistance of the tree branch is replaced by the inertia of the line. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Question:

No doubt, Chan is the expert. He and Skip Morris have a new book, called Morris and Chan on Fly Fishing Trout Lakes, Frank Amato publications. It is an excellent book, and well worth the investment. It really will improve you lake fishing overall. Another good source on lake and midge fishing is Chan’s video Flyfishing Stillwaters Vol II. You won’t be dissapointed. I had the privledge of Meeting Brian Chan when staying at a lodge in the Kamloops area. He is a fisheries biologist, and came to the lodge to do some assesment and management work. He is quite a nice fellow. Tim Lysyk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve just learned that a lake I will be going to this spring contains a great chironomid hatch (Thanks Will).  Unfortunately, in my 7 years of FF’ing, I’ve never really been inclined to explore the possibilities of chironomids.   I’ve heard wonderful things about it and now, I have reason to actually make an effort to learn as much as I can about fishing them. I understand that you are basically supposed to just let it drift on a fine long leader with a strike indicator, without retrieving line (am I wrong?). It actually sounds a bit boring…. I have dreadful visions of fishing Well, Ken, you almost have it right.  Most Americans I meet in Canada and here in the states do fish with a bobber and never feel the take.  But the Canadians do it better….floating line (they alternate two rods each with a single fly), let it sink and just work the fly near the bottom finger over finger. Very slowly.  You will feel the take and have a ball.  Look up Brian Chan of Fish B.C. on the web….he often writes about fishing chironomids. Good Luck. Fred

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Mike, Lake fishing here, we regularly get the chance to fish a fourth stage – midge balls. The adults have orgies in the evenings, often during or after hatches. We palmer a grizzly hackle on size 14, 16 or 18 hooks. Like Ernie was saying – The fly imitates the balls of midges clustered together exchanging body fluids.

That’s interesting John. They have ‘balling buzzers’ in Ireland, just as you describe and imitate them with a similar pattern (hook tightly palmered with a grizzle hackle and maybe a red game hackle in the centre of the ‘ball’). Strangely, I have never come across this phenomenon on the English reservoirs. We might not have the species that does this. BTW, sorry guys for my earlier thread coming through in triplicate. I don’t know what’s going on. I only sent it once and it has happened somewhere else, too. Interesting thread, though. Some very informative links. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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Lake fishing here, we regularly get the chance to fish a fourth stage – midge balls. The adults have orgies in the evenings, often during or after hatches.

ok…you guys are obviously napping.  time was this would have gotten at least 4 or 5 erudite comments… jeff

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Lake fishing here, we regularly get the chance to fish a fourth stage – midge balls. The adults have orgies in the evenings, often during or after hatches. ok…you guys are obviously napping.  time was this would have gotten at least 4 or 5 erudite comments… jeff

        right you are, jeffie; but a moment such as that, once lost, can never be recaptured.  i put it down to age. wayno

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Hi fellow FF’ers. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders

Ken, I’d love to help but I had mine removed years ago. Sorry. Kiyu

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I bought a chironomid when I was in the service, best damn wrist watch I ever had. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi fellow FF’ers. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders Ken,

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I picked up the book The Gilly, a Flyfishers Guide by Alfred Davy when I was in BC.  It was pretty good.  It has a little red sticker that says: national best seller.  I think they have to sell 25 books in Canada before it’s a best seller…  just kidding now, don’t get that Candadian blood all heated up.  Keep yer stick on the ice. Most places in BC they use pretty large flies.  Your standard variety western topwater flies will all work, but the rules are reversed as to size (in MT smaller is usually better).  In BC, larger is usually better.  I didn’t fish chronomids but I heard about the slow bottom and slowly rising to the surface film presentations of large chronomids (size 12 & 10, but it’s been a couple of yrs… I may be wrong there). Lake Louis in Bannf Prov Park is the best mtns in N Am, some say.  You might try and go there if you can. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bob Church, Tom Saville and Charles Jardine have all written decent books on this subject.

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Tony, Downunder we have stacks of midge fishing but our midges are all very small (all in the #20s). It’s not uncommon to have a hundred fish in one bay going berserk, gorging on midges every night at the peak of summer. IMO it’s the only time Aussie trout get terribly selective in the flies they take. Midge balls are fun because you get the surface takes and sometimes the trout will really chase them. It’s very hard to fish single emergers or adults – some guys do well with #18 or #20 klinkhammers – but you need much more light to keep track of your fly. Cheers JK

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike, Lake fishing here, we regularly get the chance to fish a fourth stage – midge balls. The adults have orgies in the evenings, often during or after hatches. We palmer a grizzly hackle on size 14, 16 or 18 hooks. Like Ernie was saying – The fly imitates the balls of midges clustered together exchanging body fluids. That’s interesting John. They have ‘balling buzzers’ in Ireland, just as you describe and imitate them with a similar pattern (hook tightly palmered with a grizzle hackle and maybe a red game hackle in the centre of the ‘ball’). Strangely, I have never come across this phenomenon on the English reservoirs. We might not have the species that does this. BTW, sorry guys for my earlier thread coming through in triplicate. I don’t know what’s going on. I only sent it once and it has happened somewhere else, too. Interesting thread, though. Some very informative links. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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I picked up the book The Gilly, a Flyfishers Guide by Alfred Davy when I was in BC.  It was pretty good.  It has a little red sticker that says: national best seller.  I think they have to sell 25 books in Canada before it’s a best seller…  just kidding now, don’t get that Candadian blood all heated up.  Keep yer stick on the ice. Most places in BC they use pretty large flies.  Your standard variety western topwater flies will all work, but the rules are reversed as to size (in MT smaller is usually better).  In BC, larger is usually better.  I didn’t fish chronomids but I heard about the slow bottom and slowly rising to the surface film presentations of large chronomids (size 12 & 10, but it’s been a couple of yrs… I may be wrong there). Lake Louis in Bannf Prov Park is the best mtns in N Am, some say.

We have some pretty large chironomids here in the British Isles. The large black and the orange/silver (Grey Boy) can be imitated on 10 and 12. The famous Irish ‘Duck Fly’ is probably about a 12. We would probably go down to 14 and 16 for the smaller ginger, olive and apple green species. Only a few of the more skilful still water fly fishers of my acquaintance bother with chironomid imitations of 18 or smaller. They can be very successful when they do so, but a 20 hook or anything smaller must be regard as a rarity on a British still water. Mostly, we get away with patterns dressed skinny and short on what most Americans would regard as ‘large’ hooks. From John Knight’s comments, the general run of chironomids on his Australian waters are rather smaller in size than we have here. If anyone is really interested in the entomology of these insects: ‘The Chironomidae – The biology and ecology of non-biting midges’, edited by Armitage, Cranston & Pinder. Pub. Chapman Hall. ISBN 0 412 45260 X Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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Mike, Lake fishing here, we regularly get the chance to fish a fourth stage – midge balls. The adults have orgies in the evenings, often during or after hatches. We palmer a grizzly hackle on size 14, 16 or 18 hooks. Like Ernie was saying – The fly imitates the balls of midges clustered together exchanging body fluids. The balls move around on the surface and are reminiscent of those drops of water that sometimes can’t break the surface tension. Because of the random movement, you can very slowly retrieve the fly, allowing you to feel when a trout grabs it among all the other rises and balls. Finding good protected  bays with hatches night after night is the trick. Cheers JK

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken wrote <<  I’ve just learned that a lake I will be going to this spring contains a great chironomid hatch (Thanks Will).  Unfortunately, in my 7 years of FF’ing, I’ve never really been inclined to explore the possibilities of chironomids.   I’ve heard wonderful things about it and now, I have reason to actually make an effort to learn as much as I can about fishing them. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all. I understand that you are basically supposed to just let it drift on a fine long leader with a strike indicator, without retrieving line (am I wrong?). It actually sounds a bit boring…. I have dreadful visions of fishing chironomids as I see many similarities of float fishing with a worm and a bobber.  Is that true?  (please prove me wrong!) Well Ken, you are partially right.  Fishing chironimids can be REALLY boring and it does resemble fishing with a worm and bobber at

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – it can also provide dynamite fishing at times. There are basically 3 main stages of the midge hatch to be concerned with and I will do my best to butcher it for you. In the first stage I believe it is known as the larva.  The insect resembles a small red worm.  This is often called a blood worm and the fish go nuts for them.  I would make sure to have some flies tied up with red v-rib or thread and some red or pink floss off the end so it flutters in the water.   Fish these on a longer leader and a strike indicator. Phase two is the pupal stage and this is what is referred to as the chironomid stage.  You have to experiement a bit on depth to find where the fish are feeding.  It could be right off the bottom all the way up to the surface film. I would make sure to take a good selection of sizes in black, green and red. The bead head varient also works well and it sinks quickly.  You can fish this pattern on a drift if there is a small breeze or if it is dead still, slowly twitch it. The final phase is the emerger.  The midge is in the surface film drying its wings and shedding its casing.  If you see lots of surface action then the fish are hitting these either on top or just right before they reach the surface.  A Griffith nat is a good pattern for feeding on the surface since it imitates several midges bunched together.  There are also several emerger patterns of chironomids that use a small piece of foam for the wing casing that allow it to float right in the surface film. Good luck and have a great trip. Mike Wilson

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Hi Ken, Check out the site below, Brian Chan is the guru of chironomid fishing from Canada. Confessions of a Chironomid Addict Vic – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi fellow FF’ers. I stumbled upon this newsgroup one evening about a week ago and glanced at a few threads hoping to find some answers to some issues I had regarding new lines for a rod. Now it seems I’m totally absorbed as I check ROFF out almost as often as I check my e-mails.   Really scary stuff.   ROFF’s enlightening and humourous.. what more can you ask for? Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all. I see many similarities of float fishing with a worm and a bobber.  Is that true?  (please prove me wrong!) Hoping you can stir some excitement into a new realm of fly fishing for me. Thanks! Ken.

– http://home.earthlink.net/~vicbrockett

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I’ve just learned that a lake I will be going to this spring contains a great chironomid hatch (Thanks Will).  Unfortunately, in my 7 years of FF’ing, I’ve never really been inclined to explore the possibilities of chironomids.   I’ve heard wonderful things about it and now, I have reason to actually make an effort to learn as much as I can about fishing them. I understand that you are basically supposed to just let it drift on a fine long leader with a strike indicator, without retrieving line (am I wrong?). It actually sounds a bit boring…. I have dreadful visions of fishing

Well, Ken, you almost have it right.  Most Americans I meet in Canada and here in the states do fish with a bobber and never feel the take.  But the Canadians do it better….floating line (they alternate two rods each with a single fly), let it sink and just work the fly near the bottom finger over finger.  Very slowly.  You will feel the take and have a ball.  Look up Brian Chan of Fish B.C. on the web….he often writes about fishing chironomids. Good Luck. Fred

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There are several articles and fly patterns for chironomid fishing at:           http://www.rural.escape.ca/angling_north/fishing/organz.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi fellow FF’ers. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all. Ken.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi fellow FF’ers. I stumbled upon this newsgroup one evening about a week ago and glanced at a few threads hoping to find some answers to some issues I had regarding new lines for a rod. Now it seems I’m totally absorbed as I check ROFF out almost as often as I check my e-mails.   Really scary stuff.   ROFF’s enlightening and humourous.. what more can you ask for? Anyways,  back to the reason why I’m making a new post. I’ve just learned that a lake I will be going to this spring contains a great chironomid hatch (Thanks Will).  Unfortunately, in my 7 years of FF’ing, I’ve never really been inclined to explore the possibilities of chironomids.   I’ve heard wonderful things about it and now, I have reason to actually make an effort to learn as much as I can about fishing them. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all. I understand that you are basically supposed to just let it drift on a fine long leader with a strike indicator, without retrieving line (am I wrong?). It actually sounds a bit boring…. I have dreadful visions of fishing chironomids as I see many similarities of float fishing with a worm and a bobber.  Is that true?  (please prove me wrong!) Hoping you can stir some excitement into a new realm of fly fishing for me. Thanks! Ken.

Hi Ken, Midge fishing is a lengthy subject.  Someone else pointed you to Chan’s web page – do read it.  Chan is a real authority on the subject.  I buy his books and read his articles – its good stuff.  I love midge fishing myself .  I don’t find it boring even if it is a bit lazy.  First, lake midges come in a huge size range, from about size 12 to 20+.  I always start with the larger end of the spectrum, or go to the nearest match to whats on the water.  I use a floating line and the largest tippet I can get away with, which is seldom larger than 3x.  4x florocarbon(sp?) is my usual.  Lay out a 40-50 foot cast down wind (to help keep the line straight) and use a very slow hand twist retrieve.  Go to the strike indicator if you need to cast across the wave action and can’t keep your line straight.  (or if you just like the visual indication).  There are many special circumstances that need to be mastered – check the literature for those.  One worthwhile trick I will describe is to use two flies when using the strike indicator.  Make one something like a Rickards Stillwater and the other any of the midge patterns.   When the midges are actively emerging ( and fish are visibly feeding near the surface) most fish will be caught within a couple feet of the surface.  Othertimes you may need to do whats necessary to fish near the bottom. Pickups while using the hand twist retrieve are always interesting, and varied. somtimes you just sense the line is moving and a fish will be there.  Other times fish will hit so hard they snap the tippet before you can react at all. That is part of the fun. Best of luck

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There is nothing mystical or difficult about chironmid fishing at all. Neither is it boring. There two basic methods sinking line or floating – both work much the same. Get the fly to where the fish are feeding and move it in a way to imitate the rising chironmid pupae.The floating technique is most hyped but not necessarily the best.  In really deep water, sinking lines are the way to go – unless you want to spend most of your time waiting for the fly to sink. BC Chironmids are relatively large flies sized # 8 down to #16 cover virtually all sizes. TDC’s, frost bite chironmids, tunkwanamids and a variety of similar patterns all work. Carry a selection of colours – black, olive, brown, red  and green is fairly basic. I’ve done best with a very slow figure 8 retrieve. Retrieve as slowly as you think possible then cut the speed in half! Keep a straight line to the fly and you’ll feel a sublte weight when a fish takes. Actually using an indicator can be fun – since I was a kid I’ve gotten a big thrill watching a bobber dip into the water.. RalphH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi fellow FF’ers. I stumbled upon this newsgroup one evening about a week ago and glanced at a few threads hoping to find some answers to some issues I had regarding new lines for a rod. Now it seems I’m totally absorbed as I check ROFF out almost as often as I check my e-mails.   Really scary stuff.   ROFF’s enlightening and humourous.. what more can you ask for? Anyways,  back to the reason why I’m making a new post. I’ve just learned that a lake I will be going to this spring contains a great chironomid hatch (Thanks Will).  Unfortunately, in my 7 years of FF’ing, I’ve never really been inclined to explore the possibilities of chironomids.   I’ve heard wonderful things about it and now, I have reason to actually make an effort to learn as much as I can about fishing them. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all. I understand that you are basically supposed to just let it drift on a fine long leader with a strike indicator, without retrieving line (am I wrong?). It actually sounds a bit boring…. I have dreadful visions of fishing chironomids as I see many similarities of float fishing with a worm and a bobber.  Is that true?  (please prove me wrong!) Hoping you can stir some excitement into a new realm of fly fishing for me. Thanks! Ken.

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Midge info beyond what one could write here can be found at these sites: Entomology http://www.sci.ouc.bc.ca/fwsc/iwalker/intpanis/ Fishing info http://www.rural.escape.ca/angling_north/fishing/organz.htm Hope these help.   Joe — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Hi fellow FF’ers. I stumbled upon this newsgroup one evening about a week ago and glanced at a few threads hoping to find some answers to some issues I had regarding new lines for a rod. Now it seems I’m totally absorbed as I check ROFF out almost as often as I check my e-mails.   Really scary stuff.   ROFF’s enlightening and humourous.. what more can you ask for? Anyways,  back to the reason why I’m making a new post. I’ve just learned that a lake I will be going to this spring contains a great chironomid hatch (Thanks Will).  Unfortunately, in my 7 years of FF’ing, I’ve never really been inclined to explore the possibilities of chironomids.   I’ve heard wonderful things about it and now, I have reason to actually make an effort to learn as much as I can about fishing them. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all. I understand that you are basically supposed to just let it drift on a fine long leader with a strike indicator, without retrieving line (am I wrong?). It actually sounds a bit boring…. I have dreadful visions of fishing chironomids as I see many similarities of float fishing with a worm and a bobber.  Is that true?  (please prove me wrong!) Hoping you can stir some excitement into a new realm of fly fishing for me. Thanks! Ken.

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Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all.

Chironomids -non-biting midges- are a huge family of insects that occur just about everywhere and in a wide climatic range. The larval and pupal stages of many chironomid species exist in rivers and still waters. In still waters they are frequently the largest constituent of the invertebrate population and -as such- a major component of the diet of many species of fish. On British reservoirs, certainly, ‘buzzers’ (as they are often called here), are regarded as the most important flies to the imitative fly fisher. There have been countless patterns devised to imitate particularly the pupal form and, to a lesser extent, the larval and winged adult stages. If you want to know more about chironomid fishing, patterns etc., I would suggest you get hold of a British still water fly fishing book. Bob Church, Tom Saville and Charles Jardine have all written decent books on this subject. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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Hi Ken,   Chironomid fishing is difficult.  Some tiers tie a fly that resembles a group of midges on the water.  They think it improves the chances that a fish will take the fly in preference to the thousands that are on the water. Ernie

<snip Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all.

<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ken.

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They are just the "nymph" stage of the midge. Here in Colorado these buzzers can be imitated using hooks up to about size 12. They can be very large. (Normal midge pupa are imitated by 18-24 size hooks. Don’t get bored. Fish the buzzer about 3-4 feet below a dry fly. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi fellow FF’ers. I stumbled upon this newsgroup one evening about a week ago and glanced at a few threads hoping to find some answers to some issues I had regarding new lines for a rod. Now it seems I’m totally absorbed as I check ROFF out almost as often as I check my e-mails.   Really scary stuff.   ROFF’s enlightening and humourous.. what more can you ask for? Anyways,  back to the reason why I’m making a new post. I’ve just learned that a lake I will be going to this spring contains a great chironomid hatch (Thanks Will).  Unfortunately, in my 7 years of FF’ing, I’ve never really been inclined to explore the possibilities of chironomids.   I’ve heard wonderful things about it and now, I have reason to actually make an effort to learn as much as I can about fishing them. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all. I understand that you are basically supposed to just let it drift on a fine long leader with a strike indicator, without retrieving line (am I wrong?). It actually sounds a bit boring…. I have dreadful visions of fishing chironomids as I see many similarities of float fishing with a worm and a bobber.  Is that true?  (please prove me wrong!) Hoping you can stir some excitement into a new realm of fly fishing for me. Thanks! Ken.

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Ken wrote <<  I’ve just learned that a lake I will be going to this spring contains a great chironomid hatch (Thanks Will).  Unfortunately, in my 7 years of FF’ing, I’ve never really been inclined to explore the possibilities of chironomids.   I’ve heard wonderful things about it and now, I have reason to actually make an effort to learn as much as I can about fishing them. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all. I understand that you are basically supposed to just let it drift on a fine long leader with a strike indicator, without retrieving line (am I wrong?). It actually sounds a bit boring…. I have dreadful visions of fishing chironomids as I see many similarities of float fishing with a worm and a bobber.  Is that true?  (please prove me wrong!)

Well Ken, you are partially right.  Fishing chironimids can be REALLY boring it can also provide dynamite fishing at times. There are basically 3 main stages of the midge hatch to be concerned with and I will do my best to butcher it for you.   In the first stage I believe it is known as the larva.  The insect resembles a small red worm.  This is often called a blood worm and the fish go nuts for them.  I would make sure to have some flies tied up with red v-rib or thread and some red or pink floss off the end so it flutters in the water.   Fish these on a longer leader and a strike indicator. Phase two is the pupal stage and this is what is referred to as the chironomid stage.  You have to experiement a bit on depth to find where the fish are feeding.  It could be right off the bottom all the way up to the surface film. I would make sure to take a good selection of sizes in black, green and red. The bead head varient also works well and it sinks quickly.  You can fish this pattern on a drift if there is a small breeze or if it is dead still, slowly twitch it. The final phase is the emerger.  The midge is in the surface film drying its wings and shedding its casing.  If you see lots of surface action then the fish are hitting these either on top or just right before they reach the surface.  A Griffith nat is a good pattern for feeding on the surface since it imitates several midges bunched together.  There are also several emerger patterns of chironomids that use a small piece of foam for the wing casing that allow it to float right in the surface film. Good luck and have a great trip. Mike Wilson

Response:

Hi fellow FF’ers. I stumbled upon this newsgroup one evening about a week ago and glanced at a few threads hoping to find some answers to some issues I had regarding new lines for a rod. Now it seems I’m totally absorbed as I check ROFF out almost as often as I check my e-mails.   Really scary stuff.   ROFF’s enlightening and humourous.. what more can you ask for? Anyways,  back to the reason why I’m making a new post. I’ve just learned that a lake I will be going to this spring contains a great chironomid hatch (Thanks Will).  Unfortunately, in my 7 years of FF’ing, I’ve never really been inclined to explore the possibilities of chironomids.   I’ve heard wonderful things about it and now, I have reason to actually make an effort to learn as much as I can about fishing them. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all. I understand that you are basically supposed to just let it drift on a fine long leader with a strike indicator, without retrieving line (am I wrong?). It actually sounds a bit boring…. I have dreadful visions of fishing chironomids as I see many similarities of float fishing with a worm and a bobber.  Is that true?  (please prove me wrong!) Hoping you can stir some excitement into a new realm of fly fishing for me. Thanks! Ken.

Response:

Hi fellow FF’ers. I stumbled upon this newsgroup one evening about a week ago and glanced at a few threads hoping to find some answers to some issues I had regarding new lines for a rod. Now it seems I’m totally absorbed as I check ROFF out almost as often as I check my e-mails.   Really scary stuff.   ROFF’s enlightening and humourous.. what more can you ask for?

        well, it’s obvious that if you don’t already need psychiatric help, you soon will.  but if you’re (often spelled "your" by the dumbasses in this outfit) going to stay for a while, kindly adopt a handle that will distinguish your "ken-ness" from that of the several other "kens" around here.  if you don’t, you will be mystified at the hostile response your posts arouse, for no apparent reason. Can any of you shed some light on chironomids: methods, techniques, leaders (lengths), strike indicators (distance away from fly)… anything at all.

        unfortunately, since "chironomids" are simply little bitty ol yankee bugs that you can’t hardly see ( as folks say in rowan county, "they ain’t no bigger than a piss-ant!), and thereby of no interest to a self-respecting flyfisher, i am unable to provide information at the level i normally do. I see many similarities of float fishing with a worm and a bobber.  Is that true?  (please prove me wrong!)

        most folks around here can’t satisfactorily prove that the sun rose this morning. Hoping you can stir some excitement into a new realm of fly fishing for me.

        i know an ol boy from down in pitt county, name of pamlico jim, who makes excitement an integral part of fly fishing, not to speak of gettin there and comin back.  but he doesn’t know how to type.         your new pal in the old north state,         wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks! Ken.

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Question:

Offering guided trips to some of the best tailwater rivers in the east. 16 years flyfishing experience.  Float (16′ Clackacraft) or wade trips (private access) available.  Reservations available July 28-Aug.3.  E-mail for rates to: Tight Lines and Screaming Reels Southern Style!  

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Everyone: I am going to revive the olde SFFC Short Fat Flyfishers Club that Dennis Bitten came up with but is now disbanded. The new name that 14 of us has chosen is "Short Fat Cigar Smokin Flyfishers Club." The rules are going to change a bit as I and others feel that a club of this type can make an impact on the market and we would truly like to make it a viable club. The market is for extended sized sport clothes, waders, gloves and various other equipment (Ever try to get a size 50" waist from Orvis in anything). Keep your Loops Tight, Flys Dry and for Pete’s sake keep your wader fly closed! Mike

Hi Mike, I’m glad to see you get this club going again. You wouldn’t consider a tall, skinny old duffers who falls in the water a lot as a candidate for membership? Just kidding, Good luck. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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Do the adjectives "short" and "fat" modify "cigar," or "flyfishers"? vince norris

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Al, Until your post, I was wondering what was supposed to be "short and fat" — the cigar or the flyfisher. DaveB

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Missed the beginning of this thread. Where do I go to sign up? Bob

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Hi: Well it could be both or either I guess. The intent is for us anglers that are short and fat in stature to gain recognition in the fly fishing market. The Cigar Smoking is just an added pleasure for those of us who partake in it. MMT

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Everyone: I am going to revive the olde SFFC Short Fat Flyfishers Club that Dennis Bitten came up with but is now disbanded. The new name that 14 of us has chosen is "Short Fat Cigar Smokin Flyfishers Club." The rules are going to change a bit as I and others feel that a club of this type can make an impact on the market and we would truly like to make it a viable club. The market is for extended sized sport clothes, waders, gloves and various other equipment (Ever try to get a size 50" waist from Orvis in anything). Keep your Loops Tight, Flys Dry and for Pete’s sake keep your wader fly closed! Mike Hi Mike, I’m glad to see you get this club going again. You wouldn’t consider a tall, skinny old duffers who falls in the water a lot as a candidate for membership? Just kidding, Good luck. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Your club is greta, though I’ll skip the cigars.  It is frustrating to try to find waders for someone 5′6" and 240 lbs.  However, you might considerthe fact that we are the final result of millions of years of evolution and that so-called "thin"people are merely, unlike us, "famine resistance challenged"!  Bill

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Not trying to be a smart a**, but try finding waders for 6′-6" 170# size 10 foot.  Most mfgs think that if you are 6-6, you should be 320 or so! One of these days I’ll find something in my size Steve Stillabower Indianapolis, IN

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Hi Everyone: I am going to revive the olde SFFC Short Fat Flyfishers Club that Dennis Bitten came up with but is now disbanded. The new name that 14 of us has chosen is "Short Fat Cigar Smokin Flyfishers Club." The rules are going to change a bit as I and others feel that a club of this type can make an impact on the market and we would truly like to make it a viable club. The market is for extended sized sport clothes, waders, gloves and various other equipment (Ever try to get a size 50" waist from Orvis in anything). We have made contacts with various manufacturers that are willing to make extended sized clothing and equipment available to all us guys and GALS who have a short stature and look like a sparkplug. We even have a deal for preferred seating on two airlines so we and other passengers can feel more comfort on the flights. small, the advantages are great and heck lets get some recognition in this ever expanding market. Keep your Loops Tight, Flys Dry and for Pete’s sake keep your wader fly closed! Mike

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Question:

Dams and pondliners prevent the escape of valuable fluids.

Right. And when (not if) those liners fail: 100 years, 500 years, even 2000 years if wer’e really lucky, the entire area becomes a superfund site.  Note that the acid leaches lots of heavy metals, highly toxic, *other* than gold, which poison the ground and the water supply. – - – the cyanide is not the major problem!    it’s the leached metals – - – which Jim won’t discuss I suppose Jim is gonna claim that the damn $1.83 per acre will pay for the impossible clean-up, like it has in Colarado? Jim, exactly how would you clean up those Colorado acid leach sites ??? – - –   Funny thing these ‘white people’: They see a mountain, all they want to do is blow it into a pile of acid leaching crap (note the acid leached a lot of *really* poisonous heavy metals). For a few pounds of shiny yellow metal, which they’ve already got more of in Fort Knox than they can do anything productive or pretty with.   Then these ‘white people’ take the money, declare the company bankrupt, and skip town… all the time whining about how we are interfering with ‘their west’.   If this is an excuse to make them rich at taxpayer expense, lets just bring back welfare and GIVE them the damn money *not* to totally fuck up the place. Let ‘em sit at home and watch TV. I’ve seen enough hard rock mining shit to care a lot about this… I’m not sorry about the language.

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Yeah sure cyanide disappers quickly. We have an old  Phelps Dodge outside Pecos, right on the river. Between the mercury and the cyanide in that area you are not advised to eat the fish. I have fished that area and the coating on my fly poles have been eaten off. Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. I understand how you feel about this, but these mining operations are not as slip shod as you suggest. Phelps Dodge uses a closed recycling leach method where the leached metal ions are first removed by electrowining, then the water solution is pumped back onto the leach pile. Dams and pond liners prevent the escape of valuable fluids.

Seadog – Still lost at Sea

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  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time.

Yes, cyanide is highly toxic, but please explain the statement regarding MOST mines leaking cyanide into nearby streams. While it is true that there have been cyanide leaks,  the word MOST is very misleading.  Some specific numbers would be quite interesting to see.  And cyanide does not persist for a long time. Shawn

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  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.

Yes, but this is the first ever "gold" mining venture, in which gold is the primary objective.  Of course they have removed gold from copper operations, but they were not "gold" mining.    Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time. Yes, cyanide is highly toxic, but please explain the statement regarding MOST mines leaking cyanide into nearby streams. While it is true that there have been cyanide leaks,  the word MOST is very misleading.  Some specific numbers would be quite interesting to see.  And cyanide does not persist for a long time. Shawn This statement is also true.  Mines that have used the heap-leach method

use impoundment dams that collect the waste cyanide.  The dams are lined with polyurethane liners that are as thick as a nickel.  In addition, the ore piles are put on top of polyurethane sheets which are supposed to keep the cyanide out of groundwater.  Every major Montana mine; and large mining companies are the primary users of cyanide-leaching has been cited for some type of water quality violation, most of which are related to cyanide leakage.  The liners are often the reason for the leak; holes, tears, seam leakage.  Rain storms have been a cause also, as they have filled up waste reservoirs and caused them to overflow.  If cyanide gets into groundwater, it gets into streams.     A large enough cyanide spill, or consistent leakage can persist for a long time in streams and rivers.  Usually, by the time groundwater leakage of cyanide is detected by the EPA or the Montana Department of Environmental Quality (DEQ), because mining companies are not likely to report, or even know about many of these leaks, they have already done their damage.  Aquatic life is much more sensitive to cyanide in lesser amounts than non aquatic life.   Shawn, keep in mind that the mining industry in Montana may be different from the industry in other states.  Our water quality laws are much more lenient than many places, thus, it is important to pass I-122.  Our past mining history shows that.  If you have any questions about the record regarding cyanide leakage, just contact the Montana Environmental Information Center, who’s address is in my original letter.  Or better yet, come to Montana sometime and see the destruction left in the place where a mountain was before, and fish the rivers that once had fish!                            Craig

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time. Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. In 1991 the Summitville Mine in Colorado spilled cyanide and heavy metals into the Alamosa River, killing all aquatic life in a 19 mile stretch. This was after assurances were given when the mine opened that "state of the art" pollution controls were being used. There is a 120 mile section of the Clark Fork River in NW Montana that is a Superfund site because of mining pollution. Dams and ponds do nothing when you have torrential rains and flooding, causing the cyanide and heavy metal solution to overflow, which has happened at a number of mining sites.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah sure cyanide disappers quickly. We have an old  Phelps Dodge outside Pecos, right on the river. Between the mercury and the cyanide in that area you are not advised to eat the fish. I have fished that area and the coating on my fly poles have been eaten off. Seadog – Still lost at Sea

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  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has

<snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time.

Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. I understand how you feel about this, but these mining operations are not as slip shod as you suggest. Phelps Dodge uses a closed recycling leach method where the leached metal ions are first removed by electrowining, then the water solution is pumped back onto the leach pile. Dams and pond liners prevent the escape of valuable fluids. Jim

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time. Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. I understand how you feel about this, but these mining operations are not as slip shod as you suggest. Phelps Dodge uses a closed recycling leach method where the leached metal ions are first removed by electrowining, then the water solution is pumped back onto the leach pile. Dams and pond liners prevent the escape of valuable fluids.

In 1991 the Summitville Mine in Colorado spilled cyanide and heavy metals into the Alamosa River, killing all aquatic life in a 19 mile stretch. This was after assurances were given when the mine opened that "state of the art" pollution controls were being used. There is a 120 mile section of the Clark Fork River in NW Montana that is a Superfund site because of mining pollution. Dams and ponds do nothing when you have torrential rains and flooding, causing the cyanide and heavy metal solution to overflow, which has happened at a number of mining sites.

Response:

            BIG INDUSTRY GOLD MINE WILL RUIN MONTANA RIVER   The Blackfoot River, which has flowed clean and cold in Montana from its headwaters near the continental divide for thousands of years is now being threatened by a huge open-pit cyanide heap-leach mine.  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp. and Canyon Resources Inc. – the Seven-Up Pete Joint Venture, wants to mine the river’s headwaters for gold.  The mine site, including 172 million pounds of cyanide, which will be poured over 980 million tons of removed ore from the mountain will sit just 1/4 mile from the Blackfoot River.  (The Blackfoot River, by the way was recently made famous by Norman Maclean in his novel "A River Runs Through It".)   To get at the gold, buried 1,200 feet underground in trace amounts, the mining company will have to dismantle two pine-covered buttes, and for each ton of ore, the miners will recover 0.02 ounces of gold.  The remaining pit, more than a mile across and deep enough to hide the Washington Monument will collect groundwater which will be contaminated with heavy metals, and will have to be pumped out at the rate of 15.8 million gallons a day.   In Butte Montana, the Berkely Pit copper mine, which is no longer in operation has a similar sized hole.  The pit is filling up with water, and officials have no way to get rid of the Carcinogen’s, toxins or metals in it, which have already leaked into the water table of the town of Butte.  The mines copper smelter, the Anaconda Smelter has dumped tons of waste sediment into the Clark Fork River which has already caused several fish-kills, and water quality problems in my town, Missoula MT.   The Blackfoot River feeds into the Clark Fork to the East, before it flows into Missoula, which means that a spill or leak of cyanide or heavy metals into the Blackfoot, would also terminally harm the Clark Fork. Both rivers are currently used regularly for rafting, kayaking, fly fishing and other recreations.   The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has had accidents at virtually all its mines.  It has been cited and fined frequently for toxic discharges into nearby waters.  The company has never mined gold in the United States.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time.  Even in dilute solutions, cyanide kills fish and other life forms.  A leak of this chemical poison into the Blackfoot could finish the river for decades.   In November, the people of Montana will be voting for or against Initiative 122, "The Clean Water Initiative".  This initiative demands higher standards for removal of carcinogens and toxins before being discharged into state waters.  The current law, one of the most lax water quality laws in the country, allows mine discharges to be diluted after release into state waters, where it is measured down stream after a "mixing zone".  The "mixing zone" technique uses the river to dilute waste rather than using expensive machinery to filter it out. The current "easy to mine cheaply" water law is one of the reasons so many mining corporations seek Montana sites over mine sites in other states.   The Phelps Dodge Mining Co. has spent over 1 million dollars on TV and radio adds in recent months, which Missoula and other communities across the state have been bombarded with.  The adds claim that state water laws are sufficient, which they clearly are not, and that stricter laws for removing higher levels of poisons before discharge from mines will put many mines out of business and hurt the states economy. The so-called "Montanans for Common Sense Water Laws" advertisements that the mining industry has created have been cited as being "illegal" by the fair-election watchdog group, "Common Cause".   "Using a misleading name, "Montanans for Common Sense Water Laws," to run a million-dollar media blitz, the Industry is succeeding in changing citizen beliefs, and they’re breaking the law to do it."  (Hal Harper, Democratic state representative from Helena, MT.)  Unfortunately, many people in the state have been scared by these ads, and swayed into believing that I-122 will hurt the economy and that it unfairly targets the mining industry.  The fact is that mining state-wide, accounts for less than one percent of the workforce, and mining has a long history of causing post mining recessions that hurt the economy.     On top of the adds, the mining industry has donated computers to the local high school, X-ray machines to the local clinic and it helped to insulate the local senior citizens facility in an attempt to win support for the upcoming vote against the Clean Water Initiative.  Proponents of I-122 believe that if a mine can not find a way to clean up their mess before they release water into the river, they should not be mining in the first place.     Supporters of I-122 have raised only around 300 thousand dollars toward the fight to make higher water quality standards law, so we need as much support as possible.  The Clark Fork-Pend Oreille Coalition recommends writing or contacting the following people to voice your opinion or concerns:  Write to Montana governor Marc Racicot, who currently favors mining and opposes I-122.                              Gov. Marc Racicot                          Capitol Station                          Helena, MT 59620                          (406)444-3111 The Phelps Dodge Mine Co. has applied to the Montana Department of Environmental Quality  (DEQ) for a permit to build this mine.  Write Sandi Olsen at the DEQ.  Ask her to put you on the mailing list for public scoping on the Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) that the DEQ will prepare once it deems Phelps Dodge’s application complete.  The findings are what determine whether the state approves or denies this permit.                          Sandi Olsen                          Montana DEQ                          P.O. Box 200901                          Helena, MT 59620                          (406)444-4988   Write a letter to your local newspaper.  Explain that the Blackfoot is too precious to trade for the short-term and questionable benefits from mining.  Remember; this is not just a Montana problem.  We all need to speak out against giant corporations that value their own interests of profit and gain over people and environment!  For more information and updates on this issue, please contact the following:                           Clark Fork- pend Oreille Coalition                       P.O. Box 7593                                                     Missoula, MT 59807                       (406)542-0539                       Montana Council of Trout Unlimited                       P.O Box 7186                       Missoula, MT 59807                       (406)543-0054                       Montana Environmental Information Center                       P.O. Box 1184                       Helena, MT 59624                       (406)443-2520    I am a University of Montana student and am not affiliated with any of the above organizations.  I am just attempting to help get the word out that what may happen if I-122 loses, is the destruction of a river and an eco-system that can not be replaced for decades.   Much of the above information came from articles from the San Francisco Examiner, The Missoulian, the Great Falls Tribune, the Clark Fork-pend Oreille Coalition and my own research and discussions with other sources.                   Craig Murphy

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Question:

Does anyone have any fly patterns for Pike ? Thanks Rod

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Hi, I use a large wooly bugger 1/0 or 2/0 with an extra long tail.  Also the Double Bunny is great for many species of fish including pike.  The Double Bunny is available from Dan Bailey’s 96 catalog. They are on page number 14 and cost $2.95 each plus S&H. You can get a catalog or order by calling 800-356-4052. Good Tying & Tight Lines Al _______ BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT

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Does anyone have any fly patterns for Pike ? Thanks Rod

I’m just about to try some bass poppers on northern pike in Scotland, so I’ll let you know! Andrew

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I’ve only fished for Pike once, in my early fly fishing/tying days.  I was sent to Cold Lake, Alberta to do some work at the Air Force base.  It was mid summer and I was going to be there for about two weeks.  I’d heard the Pike were big and mean in that lake.  (And they were, I saw some gawd awful big ones laying on the bottom of the lake while I was canoeing!) I asked for pattern recommendations from one of the local fly shop owners.  He said ty something big and "boppy" out of deer hair.  Cast it out on the water, slam it down, no grace, no glory and then strip it back, across the water in short burst. I tied up some deer hair "balls", for lack of a better description, with a couple of black hackle tips for legs/tails (sizes 2 to 2/0). I did exactly as he suggested, slapped ‘em down on the water and stipped them in.   What blast!  I’ve never had so much fun fishing on the surface!  I had one pike take three consecutive hair-raising slashes at my fly.  After each slash, I struck so hard that the line went back over my head.  I just pull it forward, and put it right back down where he had hit.  The third time, he got it! Since then, I’ve become a little more refined in my tying and fishing techniques.  But I haven’t had the chance to fish for pike again. If you want to fish the surface, bass bugs would probably work well, although you might choose a color pattern that is more like something they would see in the local area.  I dont know if some of the bright colors will work, I have no experience with these. Pike will eat almost anything that moves and they can get their mouth around: frogs, snakes, ducklings, you name it.  I tried to make as much commotion on the water as I could. It seemed to work. Good luck, Dave.

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I have never tried to catch pike on the fly BUT on one lake in Lincolnshire I lost a number of lures to pike before I realised the problem. They were basic white marabou with fluorescent green tails and/or overwings and some were leaded at the head.

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I’ve fished quite a lot for pike with flies, and 90% of the time, I use a Bunny Bug, tied on a 3/0 hook with a tail of rabbit strip and a few strands of krystal flash, a body of palmered rabbit strip (fuzzies out,) and a head of either bead-chain eyes or lacquered with a painted-on eye.  Black and white are the best, and I sometimes mix them together for a good searching pattern.   If you want to add a little, tie in some marabou right behind the head to give it an attractor.  Other flies to use are Decievers, any tarpon fly, dahlberg divers, and poppers.  Keep in mind, that some of these are destroyed by just one fish.

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Question:

Chalk up another vote for Cargill Creek.  The shop I work in takes groups down every year in November – best time to go – and organizes trips for others at any other time.  Owner and manager are good friends with Millie and Joe.  Both have caught world class bones and have some kind of sixth sense about dem bones.  Call John or Wayne at The Troutfitter (Wayne’s is featured in a picture for Andros Island bonefishing, I think for a new Orvis ad) 315-446-2047, Syracuse, NY. Tell them Tom got you onto them through the computer (they still don’t believe this stuff is for real).  If nothing else, they will be a great source of information (John’s flies are also somewhat magic).  The trips we organize average about $2500 for a week (including, room, board, food, and guides daily – either wading the flats, poling through the back cays, or both).  John’s brother is also down there guiding full-time.  Another good person to look up if you go, and I hear his lobster/conch stew is pretty tasty.  Also, if you’re interested in Montana, these guys can provide the same information/assistance or put you on the spring creeks.  Unfortunately, their spring creek and bonefish trips are usually booked a year in advance.  Give it a shot, if you want, I’ll snail mail you some literature.  Email me back with an address or again, call the shop, they’ll be glad to set you up and get you on their trip mailing list. Best of luck, Tom Carroway

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<Can anybody give me recommendations on guides/lodges for bone fishing in
<the Bahamas.  We have a group of four that would like to go down there
<this spring.  What can we expect to pay for  a decent guide with our
<without lodging?  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I stayed one week last July at the Great Abaco Bonefishing Club at Great Abaco. This particular destination has been featured in a few of the flyfishing magazines lately (Fly Fishing in Salt Waters Jan/Feb.’95 and Fly Fisherman March ‘95) so I won’t go into any details. As a whole, our group was pretty pleased with our stay…great lodge, good food, relatively experienced guides and some beautiful water. This is not a place to go for large numbers, but the average size was good (3-4 lbs) and we did catch some larger bones (at least I found them large) up 7-8 lbs. On a more general note, I can recommend a monthly newsletter I’m subscribing to called The Angling Report published by Don Causey out of Miami (305 670-1918). This newsletter covers flyfishing destinations worldwide, although with more emphasise on the US. The material is based on reports from subscribers as well as independant writers. This is the only publication I’ve come across that really tells you both "the good" and "the bad", where to go and even more important where not to go. Tight lines! Inge Solberg Houston, Texas

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Can anybody give me recommendations on guides/lodges for bone fishing in the Bahamas.  We have a group of four that would like to go down there this spring.  What can we expect to pay for  a decent guide with our without lodging?  Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

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<Can anybody give me recommendations on guides/lodges for bone fishing in <the Bahamas.  We have a group of four that would like to go down there <this spring.  What can we expect to pay for  a decent guide with our <without lodging?  Any help would be greatly appreciated. Try Andros Bonefishing Club or Cargill Creek on Andros. Fishing for a week with guides and room and food is about $1800-$2000. Good luck Dave

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