Question:

Oops!  I am sure glad that I am not required to understand the physics of fly casting in order to do it because if I was I would be in serious trouble. I try to keep it simple.  I fish, therefore I am. JK

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bloody hell John, I hope you mean grains !  I would not like to try casting a fly-line weighing over a pound !  (Especially not from Airflo !! 500 grams would be 7716 grains !!!! 350 grains = 22.5  grams or 0.8 oz. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de I have had very good experiences fishing the their fast sinking line. The design is similar to the Teeny in that it has a running (intermediate) line attached to a shooting head.  The version I have is about 500 grms. My experience is that this weight business differs wildly between fly lines. The Cortland line I have which I think is a 350 feels like 650.

Response:

I have had very good experiences fishing the their fast sinking line.  The design is similar to the Teeny in that it has a running (intermediate) line attached to a shooting head.  The version I have is about 500 grms. My experience is that this weight business differs wildly between fly lines. The Cortland line I have which I think is a 350 feels like 650.

That’s interesting.  My Teeny 300 feels heavier than my Scientific Anglers Wet Cel 11 wt shooting head (nominally 330 grains – I haven’t weighed it because my scale is in storage in Michigan) on my 9 weight rod.  I’m not sure what it is.  IIRC Teeny’s prototypes were originally made by Sci Ang and might still be. (In fact, two years ago at a fly fishing show I asked a 3M rep all kinds of questions regarding splicing custom density compensated shooting heads and he sent me and assortment of 5 sinking fly lines that he had used for his research.  Three of them were 3M lines and two were Teenys).  Obviously the linear density of the Teeny line is greater since it’s 300 grains and 24 ft whereas the 11 wt Wet Cel is 330 grains over 30 feet.  The 11 wt is rated as a Type IV and not sure what the Teeny is.  The 11 wt is tapered and the Teeny is not. Airflo claims that their Depth Charge lines have the smallest diameter/grain weight ratio.  That might have something to do with your experiences. Mu, still searching for clues

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Throw him in the river and he will come up with

a fish in his mouth.                                   Arabian proverb.<   When I was a kid, growing up in Youngstown OH, we used to say (about someone we considered lucky), "If he fell in the Mahoning River, he’d come out with a fish in his pocket."  The M. was dead as a doornail from steel mill pollution in those days.  

Response:

I have had very good experiences fishing the their fast sinking line.  The design is similar to the Teeny in that it has a running (intermediate) line attached to a shooting head.  The version I have is about 500 grms. My experience is that this weight business differs wildly between fly lines. The Cortland line I have which I think is a 350 feels like 650. My main concerns in these kinds of line are: 1. The most importand consideration is tangles.  I fish for striped bass off Cape Cod where the air temperature can vary from 95 degrees in summer to forty degrees in the fall.  I have found the Airflo to have the least tendency to tangle.  Since one of the main concerns in fishing fast sinking, shooting head lines is distance, this is a major concern.   I commonly have 70 feet of line to contend with when retrieving.  If the line tends to tangle you can find the day very frustrating and you can lose some nice fish if a tangle jams in your guides. 2. Finding the correct weight.  As noted above, I do not know how much the issue is actual weight and how much it is the way that weight is distributed but there is quite a range in the way these shooting head type lines feel to cast. I noticed on their web site that they are now guarranteeing their lines not to crack for five years. JK

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Ref other postings: Early airflo lines were terrible, not even much use as parcel string, came undone too easily. The modern ones are much better, quite usable in fact. Not as good as the best Cortland or Sci Anglers of course, but available here (uk) at competetive package prices. You gents in the US would balk at the prices we pay! Chris — Throw him in the river and he will come up with a fish in his mouth.                                                                 Arabian proverb. Where’s this river then? I hope its the Bow, Thompson or Vedder, which I aim to fish this summer.

Response:

Bloody hell John, I hope you mean grains !  I would not like to try casting a fly-line weighing over a pound !  (Especially not from Airflo !! 500 grams would be 7716 grains !!!! 350 grains = 22.5  grams or 0.8 oz. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have had very good experiences fishing the their fast sinking line.  The design is similar to the Teeny in that it has a running (intermediate) line attached to a shooting head.  The version I have is about 500 grms. My experience is that this weight business differs wildly between fly lines. The Cortland line I have which I think is a 350 feels like 650.

Response:

Hi Ref other postings: Early airflo lines were terrible, not even much use as parcel string, came undone too easily. The modern ones are much better, quite usable in fact. Not as good as the best Cortland or Sci Anglers of course, but available here (uk) at competetive package prices. You gents in the US would balk at the prices we pay! Chris — Throw him in the river and he will come up with a fish in his mouth.                                                                 Arabian proverb. Where’s this river then? I hope its the Bow, Thompson or Vedder, which I aim to fish this summer.

Response:

Hi Ref other postings: Early airflo lines were terrible, not even much use as parcel string, came undone too easily. The modern ones are much better, quite usable in fact. Not as good as the best Cortland or Sci Anglers of course, but available here (uk) at competetive package prices. You gents in the US would balk at the prices we pay! Chris — Throw him in the river and he will come up with a fish in his mouth. Arabian proverb. Where’s this river then? I hope its the Bow, Thompson or Vedder, which I aim to fish this summer.

I bought an Airflo line last year at a sporting goods store that was getting out of the fishing business.  This particular shop specializes in hunting/shooting and apparently wasn’t very successful selling to anglers.  The line had been reduced in price three times to a final selling price of only $20.  For that price, I figured I couldn’t go wrong–so I bought it.  It’s a DT5F in a light brown color and so far it seems to work as advertised…  I’m probably not a good enough caster to be critiquing fly lines, but I don’t have any complaints about the Airflo line I’ve got. Tom G always looking for a good deal

Response:

Question:

. Cheap rod a child can use I should have mentioned, this is for a 2 year old. Rick

Depends on fishing habits and conditions. Your normal habits will of course have to change, mainly taking turns while the "sitter" of the moment explores nature, a little splashing, turning over rocks, touching moss-bark-worms-mud etc. a chest pak carrier (with the child facing forward) provides security, restraint, and mobility.  Of course the child will not remember it later but you will, as a most wondrous phase in your lives. I can tell you that as the family grows your fishing habits will continue change culminating with a trip with the grand children. Maybe if you are as lucky as me, Great grand children and the realization of how blessed your life has been and what fun fishing buddies you have.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Find another couple with the same problem. Their passion doesn’t have to be fishing, could be golf, tennis, whatever.  The couples take turns looking after the other’s child.  Since the visiting child gets to play with a new playmate and toys, interest should not be a problem. Peter Damn!  I hate it when people give sound and thoughtful advice. Opie  –Planning for the Past– Really.  I was waiting for some wag to suggest giving the kid a box of treble hooks the night before and then letting the doctors and your HMO take care of it from there, or something in equally poor taste…<G. Seriously, I liked the idea of taking the child, but the parents taking turns fishing.  Heck, by three or four, I was fishing – not quite with a fly yet, and not quite catching much (I’m not sure if I even had a complete hook – hey, if it’s not dynamite or electricity, it’s called _fishing_, not catching), but it taught me patience, etc. If that’s not practical, Peter’s idea seems pretty decent – maybe even find another couple in similar position (or even better, one non-fisher) and three can fish while one watches the kiddos. TC, R

BRAGGING RIGHTS::: At four my great grandson caught his first trophy large mouth, "gramps" cast,(we hadn’t known he was a lefty then) and lipped it. He did the rest. 21.5" of galloping bass, I’m surprised you didn’t hear me whooping.

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Will send you a video one day just to prove it )

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Admittedly I would never take my kids fishing they are obnoxious and annoying. LOL.  This is one of the funniest lines I’ve read on ROFF (I hope you intended it that way) and a sure candidate for Brutally Honest Comment of the Year. JR

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"Jo" < Admittedly I would never take my kids fishing they are obnoxious and annoying.

… Bad habits can be broken…… john

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You havent met my kids with a fishing rod 2 out of three are officially hyperactive and the other one is a budding self absorbed model god forbid any dirt attaching itself to that one. Fishing is actually stressful with them.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Jo" < Admittedly I would never take my kids fishing they are obnoxious and annoying. … Bad habits can be broken…… john

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations? Lodges with kids programs? Day cares in town? I know that it’s always possible to hire a local person as a sitter, but I’m thinking more about organized, professional care which will be more fun for the child. TIA, Rick

I’ve got an almost-two year old myself, and I went on two vacations in two months–Maui in December and Orlando in January. During the trip to Maui, my mother came up from Raleigh, NC to PA and stayed at our house with the baby.  Baby sleeps in her own bed, gets spoiled by grandma for 8 days, loves it.  Baby learns to say "Hawaii" and locate the islands on the globe.  Mom & Dad enjoy the islands for a week. During the trip to FL, my grandmother & aunt (both live practically next door) shared the same duties as my mom did a month earlier.  Baby sleeps in own bed, gets spoiled by auntie & great-grandma for a 4-day weekend.  Mom & Dad bring home ‘mouse ears’ for baby, in an effort to remove the mouse ears, baby snaps elastic chin strap against face, cries vigorously.  Mom & Dad supress laughter (mostly). My tactic so far has been simple:  don’t take the kid. I share your dilemma.  Life with two year old is not really the ideal situation for spending day after day astream, especially if Mom wants to go fishing as badly as Dad does… The ‘find a couple and share babysitting’ plan is a good one.  You could probably get 6 weekends/year from that plan.  One weekend/month/couple:  one month you babysit, one month they babysit. If your life is anything like mine (hectic), one weekend every other month is probably as often as you can get away. Basically, my advice is this:  FAMILY.  Grandparents, great- grandparents (if your child is so lucky) aunts & uncles, etc.  They’re the best babysitters money can buy (free), and they’ll treat your child like family–obviously.  And most kids think of grandma or a favorite aunt/uncle as being at least as fun as the county fair, if not better. If you can get a family member to staty at your house, so much the better.  Thell them to pay-per-view anything they’d like, give them some $$$ for ordering pizza, etc., and make sure they know where the local park is and how to get there. If you don’t have any family in driving distance, consider moving. Unless, that is, you live far from family by design. <g  In which case I have no worthwhile advice for you. Some weekends, I’d give anything for a few hours of privacy (wink wink, nod nod) with the spousal unit.  I don’t care if the baby lives on M&Ms and Potato Chips for the entire weekend–just make sure there’s no crying in the background when I call to see how things are and I’ll have a good time without baby. With the upcomping Penns Clave, the wife & I are considering buying a big cabin tent (we live less than an hour from Coburn) and taking baby camping for the first time.  I’ve got some misgivings about exposing wife and baby to ROFFians, but it’s a possibility.  Wife doesn’t fly fish (yet), and baby will probably want to throw rocks in creek all day, but I’ve yet to find a better way to spend lots of time at the Clave.  Since we’re less than an hour from home, the worst that could happen is that we all go home at night. Tom G constantly struggling to find time to fish

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Not only family but friends are good resources.  Last time we took boys fishing (one good ol’ boy and one city boy), we went with Ol’ Whiskerface’s buddy.  One day, I’d take the kids sightseeing (indian ruins, big rocks, A&W rootbeer), the next day one or both menfolks would take one or both boys fishing, while I caught dinner.  We kinda "spread the wealth."  Now both boys all groan up and never call their mother.  Enjoy the little beggers while you can. Bob’s Wife in El Paso. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations? Basically, my advice is this:  FAMILY.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Find another couple with the same problem. Their passion doesn’t have to be fishing, could be golf, tennis, whatever.  The couples take turns looking after the other’s child.  Since the visiting child gets to play with a new playmate and toys, interest should not be a problem. Peter Damn!  I hate it when people give sound and thoughtful advice. Opie  –Planning for the Past–

Really.  I was waiting for some wag to suggest giving the kid a box of treble hooks the night before and then letting the doctors and your HMO take care of it from there, or something in equally poor taste…<G. Seriously, I liked the idea of taking the child, but the parents taking turns fishing.  Heck, by three or four, I was fishing – not quite with a fly yet, and not quite catching much (I’m not sure if I even had a complete hook – hey, if it’s not dynamite or electricity, it’s called _fishing_, not catching), but it taught me patience, etc. If that’s not practical, Peter’s idea seems pretty decent – maybe even find another couple in similar position (or even better, one non-fisher) and three can fish while one watches the kiddos.   TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Life as you knew is over. Some good tips in this thread but none that will make it like it was.  One reason there is so many geezers in roff is they have to wait till the kids leave and the dog dies to get back to fly fishing.  Fish when you can enjoy the kid. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it.

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Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations?      None of my exes ever minded being left back at the cabin to watch the kids. Ummm, let me reword that, umm oh cripes, I think I’m starting to understand something.                   Charlie,                   getting in touch with my feminine side

    I think I know what you’re saying. My wife, when annoyed one time after I came home from a six hour round, asked me if I ever wondered why the 3 other guys in my Sunday morning foursome are all divorced.                                     Kelly

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[snip]     I think I know what you’re saying. My wife, when annoyed one time after I came home from a six hour round, asked me if I ever wondered why the 3 other guys in my Sunday morning foursome are all divorced.                                     Kelly

the answers are: "Because I have a wonderful wife and their wives were real B^%$^s"  or "Now don’t go putting any silly ideas in my head"

Response:

I was expecting to hear something about lodges with rivers and kid programs, but I’d forgotten the warmth, creativity and thoughtfulness of this list. Several of the responses had me roaring with laughter. Thanks. Rick

Response:

I was expecting to hear something about lodges with rivers and kid programs, but I’d forgotten the warmth, creativity and thoughtfulness of this list. Several of the responses had me roaring with laughter. Thanks. Rick

All in a days work, Rick! As a single guy for 42 years, you damn sure don’t want a serious reply from me.  Besides, I wouldn’t have a clue what to suggest.  But I have heard that bears are nurturing critters, to a point. Opie  –Planning for the Past–

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Seriously I think the only thing that would come close is taking the kid,…I have a friend who had been fly fishing with her dad since the age of 3 she is now 50 and coaches top fly fishers herself. Some of us are really lucky to have understanding spouses, in fact mine cancelled a golf afternoon without a blink because I planned to go fishing away for a weekend and forgot to tell him. Admittedly I would never take my kids fishing they are obnoxious and annoying.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was expecting to hear something about lodges with rivers and kid programs, but I’d forgotten the warmth, creativity and thoughtfulness of this list. Several of the responses had me roaring with laughter. Thanks. Rick

Response:

Admittedly I would never take my kids fishing they are obnoxious and annoying.

LOL.  This is one of the funniest lines I’ve read on ROFF (I hope you intended it that way) and a sure candidate for Brutally Honest Comment of the Year. JR

Response:

Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations? Lodges with kids programs? Day cares in town? I know that it’s always possible to hire a local person as a sitter, but I’m thinking more about organized, professional care which will be more fun for the child. TIA, Rick

Response:

Cheap rod a child can use

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations? Lodges with kids programs? Day cares in town? I know that it’s always possible to hire a local person as a sitter, but I’m thinking more about organized, professional care which will be more fun for the child. TIA, Rick

Response:

. Cheap rod a child can use I should have mentioned, this is for a 2 year old. Rick

Response:

Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations?

Each of you fish half a day. There’ll be plenty of time for romance fishing when the kid’s older. –Steve (hey, you asked…)

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Children are God’s way of telling you that you have no business enjoying life. As toddlers they take up your time because they are helpless otherwise. As adolescents they must be shuttled to and fro from one activity to the next. As teenagers they are mean, nasty, vulgar little shits that may or may not require bail. As young adults they seem to have finally gotten their shit together, but will eventually destroy what is left of your sanity. As full grown adults they will fight with their siblings over some supposed fortune you are planning to leave, and then place you and your spouse in separate retirement homes. Realize of course that I speak from experience as a single guy.  BTW, mom and dad left me with nothing and they are presently communicating via the USPS, because I wouldn’t pay to have phone installed in their rooms at Shady Lake and Happy Trails Retirement Centers. Opie  –Bastard Son–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations? Lodges with kids programs? Day cares in town? I know that it’s always possible to hire a local person as a sitter, but I’m thinking more about organized, professional care which will be more fun for the child. TIA, Rick

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations? Lodges with kids programs? Day cares in town? I know that it’s always possible to hire a local person as a sitter, but I’m thinking more about organized, professional care which will be more fun for the child. TIA, Rick

Find another couple with the same problem. Their passion doesn’t have to be fishing, could be golf, tennis, whatever.  The couples take turns looking after the other’s child.  Since the visiting child gets to play with a new playmate and toys, interest should not be a problem. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Find another couple with the same problem. Their passion doesn’t have to be fishing, could be golf, tennis, whatever.  The couples take turns looking after the other’s child.  Since the visiting child gets to play with a new playmate and toys, interest should not be a problem. Peter

Damn!  I hate it when people give sound and thoughtful advice. Opie  –Planning for the Past–

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Damn!  I hate it when people give sound and thoughtful advice. Opie  –Planning for the Past–

It’s a dirty job, but somebody’s gotta do it. Peter

Response:

Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations?

     None of my exes ever minded being left back at the cabin to watch the kids. Ummm, let me reword that, umm oh cripes, I think I’m starting to understand something.                   Charlie,                   getting in touch with my feminine side

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Question:

0] : Anyone used one of Cortland’s Clear Creek lines?  One of the streams I : fish has a lot of fast pocket water and I need to make a lot of short : presentations with short leaders (under 6′) and large, heavily dressed : flies (#14 to #10).  The line sounds ideal for this water except that : I’m concernerd that the level tip (about 3′ of running line) won’t : turn over the big flies. : I have been using a blunt Nymph taper to date but I don’t like the : bright orange colour. : Anybody ever tried these lines with big flies? : Cheers I have one and don’t much like it. With that fine tip, there is less mass to load the rod on short casts, which I find rather miserable for short range fishing. Likewise it has a tough time with big flies because that long front taper tends to inhibit the turnover. What it does do well and what it is designed for are presentations where you have got enough line out to load the rod and want a softer landing than a standard line would get. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

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Dylon – #34 or #35. Mix up a brew – dunk the line (or just the tip) for 10 seconds, remove it … check colour … repeat dunking if necessary. Steve

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I thinking about getting an Orvis Quiet Taper to replace it. It’s a double taper (which I like- two lines for the price of one) with a similar long front tip. Anyone have an experience with this line?

I have been using the orvis sprink creek lines for several years, they do have a long front taper and i have found on my T&T rods that using the dt4 on my 3 wgt you get enuf wght out of the rod tip even on 10 to 20 foot casts to load the rod. but since the tip is so long and thin you dont mess up presentation like you would using a wf line on them theese lines seem to acctually weight out more like a 3 1/2 wght rather than a 4 wght with the spring creek dt i can throw size 12 mini clousers 40 to 50 feet with out any problems…. casts in the 50+ foot range the rod starts to feel overloaded however. Steve

Response:

That should have been Orvis Spring Creek line.

William I stopped by the local Orvis store and checked out the line.  The 15′ front taper sounds great for bigger water but I don’t think it would work as well in fast pocket water.  I would imagine it would roll and mend quite well but I can picture have trouble with 12’s and 14’s in the wind.  Also, that small tip would be easily sunk by turbulence. One stretch I fish, the stream has a long east-west orientation and it can get like a wind tunnel sometimes.   An upstream cast can get blown back at you if the line won’t carry it.  Even though the fish tend to be small, I’ve used a four or five weight just because of the conditions at the upper end of this particular stretch of water. I’m leaning toward a gray SA XPS DT.  Thanks for the input. Peter

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Peter, I reckon any 3wt will be straining to turn bushy #10’s at close range – doesn’t SA make a buff coloured DTF line – maybe you should even consider a 4wt line – and getting your leader right is the other 50% of the answer. I have a Sage RPL+ 3wt 8′6" with a 3wt Teeny DTF (blue/green, blunt taper) – for stream fishing large dry flies I use a 5′ superbraid tapered butt leader with another 4′ of 10lb and 2′ of 6lb. The braid butt leader really helps to generate positive turnover and for the small streams, the short length of the mono part is not really a hindrance (as you said earlier). I don’t know if this type of butt leader is available in North America – mine is locally made. They are a real boon for light rod stream fishing as they turn over very well and can be soaked in liquid floatant to float high everafter without further treatment. Cheers JK

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I use a Clear Creek on my 3 weight and like it for slow water and delicate presentation. Its long front fine tip is great for presentation but not as good for fishing bushy flies.  I also don’t feel that it wears too well. I’ve had more than average problems with cracking. I thinking about getting an Orvis Quiet Taper to replace it. It’s a double taper (which I like- two lines for the price of one) with a similar long front tip. Anyone have an experience with this line? Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone used one of Cortland’s Clear Creek lines?  One of the streams I fish has a lot of fast pocket water and I need to make a lot of short presentations with short leaders (under 6′) and large, heavily dressed flies (#14 to #10).  The line sounds ideal for this water except that I’m concernerd that the level tip (about 3′ of running line) won’t turn over the big flies. I have been using a blunt Nymph taper to date but I don’t like the bright orange colour. Anybody ever tried these lines with big flies? Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.cgocable.net/~pcharles/index.html

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presentations with short leaders (under 6′) and large, heavily dressed flies (#14 to #10).  The line sounds ideal for this water except that I’m concernerd that the level tip (about 3′ of running line) won’t turn over the big flies.

Peter: I have not tried the Cortland 444 Clear Creek line, but I modified a Wulff TT by cutting 5 feet off the tip and it does great for heavily weighted size 8 streamers for my beloved bluegill. You might try cutting back that level tip six inches at a time till it seems right. You will have a chance to try my modified Wulff 3/4 TT at the Double Naught Clave in May. I think the white color of the Wulff sucks too…I have been thinkiing of dyiing it olive. Big Dale

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Peter, I dyed a white elcheapo Cabela’s 3 wt line this summer, haven’t used it that much, but here’s the procedure I used:  Rit Dye, closest color available to orange was yellow/orange (or something like that, can’t remember)  I boiled water in a glass cooking pot, dumping in the whole pack of dye.  Remove from stove and stir it well.  Then dumped in the line (loosely coiled) stirring it around for a couple of minutes.  Took the line out and laid it out on my back deck to dry.  Looks pretty good, not the brilliant orange I wanted, but close enough.  FWIW. Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Peter, what about dying your current line? Steve The bright orange is a 5wt. and I’m looking for a line to go with the new 3wt. I’ll be getting for the new season.  For the other applicatiojns, the orange isn’t a problem, just this one.  Just for future reference though, what sort of dye would you use? Peter

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5-6′ off the end of a Wulff TT. The Wulff TT is ivory colored.

Go easy when you start cutting off the end of the line. I would start with 2 feet and try it and then cut off 6 inches at a time. I also have a WF3 line that was designed by Gary LaFontaine and made by Jim Teeney that is a beautiful dull olive color, but must have been designed for very small flies for use on spring creeks. It also has a very fine long taper on the front and I find it useful for size 18 and smaller dry flies, but it would be a poor choice for close in fishing in the pocket water of the small streams of western North Carolina. If someone makes a dull olive line in a double taper with only about 2 feet of level line on the front of the taper I think it would be perfect.   I have read of people using a permanent marker in olive on a few feet of their line, but this seems kind of half-assed to me so I have not tried that yet. I am hesitant to go thru the learning curve of dying lines as I think it would be easy to ruin a new line. I know that Craig Matthews of Blue Ribbon Flies used to dye some lines olive for guys that were going to N.Z. a few years ago. I don’t know if he still does that. This could be an area where it woulld be better to pay someone who knows what the hell they are doing. I know I intend to talk with him about this the next chance I get. Perhaps I will be able to catch him in his shop when I go to Montana for the Western Clave next summer. Speaking of the Western Clave for those who tie flies be sure to bring charge cards when you visit his shop as they have a great selection of materials which are simply not available most places. There is a great laundromat across the street from his shop and the last time I was there I dropped a hundred bucks on hen necks while the clothes were in the dryer. Big Dale

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Hi Peter, what about dying your current line? Steve

The bright orange is a 5wt. and I’m looking for a line to go with the new 3wt. I’ll be getting for the new season.  For the other applicatiojns, the orange isn’t a problem, just this one.  Just for future reference though, what sort of dye would you use? Peter

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When these wear out I’m going to try Big Dale’s suggestion. Cut 5-6′ off the end of a Wulff TT. The Wulff TT is ivory colored. — Ken Fortenberry

I know it’s supposed to work but hacking the front end of a fly line off just goes against the grain.  Last time I tried it, it turned a bad line into a worse one.  At least when the TT gets dirty, it’ll be the right colour. Peter

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That should have been Orvis Spring Creek line. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I use a Clear Creek on my 3 weight and like it for slow water and delicate presentation. Its long front fine tip is great for presentation but not as good for fishing bushy flies.  I also don’t feel that it wears too well. I’ve had more than average problems with cracking. I thinking about getting an Orvis Quiet Taper to replace it. It’s a double taper (which I like- two lines for the price of one) with a similar long front tip. Anyone have an experience with this line? Willi Anyone used one of Cortland’s Clear Creek lines?  One of the streams I fish has a lot of fast pocket water and I need to make a lot of short presentations with short leaders (under 6′) and large, heavily dressed flies (#14 to #10).  The line sounds ideal for this water except that I’m concernerd that the level tip (about 3′ of running line) won’t turn over the big flies. I have been using a blunt Nymph taper to date but I don’t like the bright orange colour. Anybody ever tried these lines with big flies? Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.cgocable.net/~pcharles/index.html

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I’ve got two of these, one in WF3 for a 7.5′ Winston 3wt and one in WF2 for a 7.5′ Orvis 1 wt (your eponymous ) and you are quite right. They don’t work very well with largish or bushy flies. You can lengthen the leader out to 9-12′ and turn over #12’s, but with only 6′ of leader even #14’s are something of a pain in the arse. I use 7.5′ leaders for most of the small stream NC fishing and don’t try to toss anything bigger than #12. — Ken Fortenberry

Ken I suppose a good alternative would be to find a relatively blunt tapered line (7′ and under front taper) in a dull colour.  SA used to have a sand coloured line that I thought was a great natural colour as it resembled straw, yet it was visible.  So they stopped making it. In that fast pocket water, I often have to make pile casts that can put the end of the fly line in the fish’s window.  I’m sure the bright orange is costing me some strikes. Now it’s just a matter of finding one. Peter

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Hi Peter, what about dying your current line? Steve

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I suppose a good alternative would be to find a relatively blunt tapered line (7′ and under front taper) in a dull colour.   …

When these wear out I’m going to try Big Dale’s suggestion. Cut 5-6′ off the end of a Wulff TT. The Wulff TT is ivory colored. — Ken Fortenberry

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Anyone used one of Cortland’s Clear Creek lines? … Anybody ever tried these lines with big flies?

I’ve got two of these, one in WF3 for a 7.5′ Winston 3wt and one in WF2 for a 7.5′ Orvis 1 wt (your eponymous ) and you are quite right. They don’t work very well with largish or bushy flies. You can lengthen the leader out to 9-12′ and turn over #12’s, but with only 6′ of leader even #14’s are something of a pain in the arse. I use 7.5′ leaders for most of the small stream NC fishing and don’t try to toss anything bigger than #12. — Ken Fortenberry

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Anyone used one of Cortland’s Clear Creek lines?  One of the streams I fish has a lot of fast pocket water and I need to make a lot of short presentations with short leaders (under 6′) and large, heavily dressed flies (#14 to #10).  The line sounds ideal for this water except that I’m concernerd that the level tip (about 3′ of running line) won’t turn over the big flies. I have been using a blunt Nymph taper to date but I don’t like the bright orange colour. Anybody ever tried these lines with big flies? Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.cgocable.net/~pcharles/index.html

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know there is a dough bait that you mix cornmeal and some other stuff in it, if you can help me out i will be very thankful!! Hey there.  Ever since I was a kid we used a recipe with cornmeal for catching carp.  It worked great.  To make it, put some water on the stove and wait until it boils.  When it’s boiling, throw some cornmeal in there.  Mix it around and add flour (to make it firm, so it doesn’t fly off the hook.)  Also add sugar, honey, peanut butter, and whatever else you want to try (vanilla flavoring, syrup, garlic powder, etc.)  Good fishing.   =) Add some red food coloring, too – carp can detect color, I’m told. And believe it or not, a little after-shave mixed in works wonders!

Sounds like the one I grew up with. Except use Red Jello. Makes a real mess in the pan but it sticks together real nice! I can remember my dad making it however I don’t remember how much of what. Skyway Steve

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I know there is a dough bait that you mix cornmeal and some other stuff in it, if you can help me out i will be very thankful!!

Hey there.  Ever since I was a kid we used a recipe with cornmeal for catching carp.  It worked great.  To make it, put some water on the stove and wait until it boils.  When it’s boiling, throw some cornmeal in there.  Mix it around and add flour (to make it firm, so it doesn’t fly off the hook.)  Also add sugar, honey, peanut butter, and whatever else you want to try (vanilla flavoring, syrup, garlic powder, etc.)  Good fishing.   =)

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I know there is a dough bait that you mix cornmeal and some other stuff in it, if you can help me out i will be very thankful!! Hey there.  Ever since I was a kid we used a recipe with cornmeal for catching carp.  It worked great.  To make it, put some water on the stove and wait until it boils.  When it’s boiling, throw some cornmeal in there.  Mix it around and add flour (to make it firm, so it doesn’t fly off the hook.)  Also add sugar, honey, peanut butter, and whatever else you want to try (vanilla flavoring, syrup, garlic powder, etc.)  Good fishing.   =)

Add some red food coloring, too – carp can detect color, I’m told. And believe it or not, a little after-shave mixed in works wonders!

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Question:

Please teach a newbie gardener the basics of dividing irises.  The specific Iris I have in mind is Siberian, I think, tall with lance-shaped leaves and small blooms.  The plant itself is doing wonderfully (20 blossoms and counting), but I’ve noticed that it’s taken on a circular growing pattern, with a blank space of soil at the center.  I understand that this is a sign that the plant needs to be divided and/or moved. How do I cut the rhiozomes to divide the plant? When is the best time of year to perform the operation? Do irises need to be moved to fresh soil occasionally?

Siberian irises have bulbs, not rhizomes.  You divide them [in the fall] by cutting off all the leaves about 4" above ground level, digging up the entire clump, gently splitting the bulbs apart, and replanting at about 6" depth, and 8-12" separation.  To avoid fungus problems, I generally wash and dry the bulbs before replanting, and dust with sulphur, but this is completely optional. To divide rhizomatous iris, cut off the leaves, dig up the clump, wash off the soil, and, using a sharp knife, divide the rhizomes into groups of 1-3 leaf bundles.  Dry very well, and dust with sulphur before replanting, with the rhizomes above the ground.  [In very cold areas you put winter mulch on the rhizomes after the ground freezes, and remove it in early spring.] As long as you are fertilizing regularly, your irises don’t need to be moved to a new location. Chris Owens

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Siberian irises have bulbs, not rhizomes.

  Did you mean the reverse?  Mine grow in expanding grass-like clumps of nearly solid root mass so it’s hard to tell.  Looks more like a rhizome.   With healthy clumps of Cesears Brother, I’ve heard it recommended to dig them up and run over them with a car until you get them broken into managable clumps.  It’ll take a pick ax to get mine out of the ground. — Lloyd Fortney http://www.phy.duke.edu/~fortney/ has links to my garden, flower, flyfishing, and travel JPEG images as well as teaching, research, and stuff like that

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Please teach a newbie gardener the basics of dividing irises.  The specific Iris I have in mind is Siberian, I think, tall with lance-shaped leaves and small blooms.  The plant itself is doing wonderfully (20 blossoms and counting), but I’ve noticed that it’s taken on a circular growing pattern, with a blank space of soil at the center.  I understand that this is a sign that the plant needs to be divided and/or moved. How do I cut the rhiozomes to divide the plant? When is the best time of year to perform the operation? Do irises need to be moved to fresh soil occasionally? Thanks in advance, Doctor Fang

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Please teach a newbie gardener the basics of dividing irises. The specific Iris I have in mind is Siberian, I think, tall with lance-shaped leaves and small blooms.  The plant itself is doing wonderfully (20 blossoms and counting), but I’ve noticed that it’s taken on a circular growing pattern, with a blank space of soil at the center.  I understand that this is a sign that the plant needs to be divided and/or moved.

Sounds like a siberian, if the leaves are half an inch or so in width. Divided, yes perhaps.  It may be a good idea, but isn’t absolutely necessry if it’s blooming well and you’re satisfied with the appearance.  20 blooms isn’t a lot for a clump. How do I cut the rhiozomes to divide the plant?

Cut the foliage back to about 6" on the part you are about to cut away, so you can see what you are doing.  Take a sharp pointed spade and make a vertical cut through the ring.  Drive the spade down as deeply as you can.  You want to get as much root as possible.  Siberians are very deep rooted.  Move along the ring to include as many crowns as you want, or perhaps about 6" and make another cut.  If necessary cut also along the outside edge to free the section up and then remove it.  Take as much soil with the division as possible, to minimize root disturbance. Some people advocate doing this to a long established clump every year, removing 1/4 to 1/3 of the clump.  Each year you take the oldest remaining section.  When a section is removed it’s replaced with fresh enriched top soil.  This goes a long way to eliminating the ring effect and leaves a large established clump mostly intact to look good and still bloom well the next year. When is the best time of year to perform the operation?

Siberians are tough.  When it’s finished blooming you can divide it.  The foliage should be cut back (as above).  Keep the new division very well watered for at least several weeks to help them re-establish.  If you don’t want or haven’t room for the divisions send them to me! Do irises need to be moved to fresh soil occasionally?

No, but they grow more vigorously in soil that hasn’t grown iris before or in many years.  Iris give off a substance which acts as a growth inhibitor. Dennis Mathiasen Central NY Zone 4b

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Question:

Does anyone have any tips on flyfishing at Gold Lake (hwy 58) in Oregon?

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Does anyone have any tips on flyfishing at Gold Lake (hwy 58) in Oregon?

1. Take plenty of mosquito juice. 2. Small nymphs, dries, chronimids. 3. Enjoy Lake is full of 8" brookies and fewer larger rainbow.

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -[snip] Now pardon me while I go and bake this Steelhead.  The only one I kept this year out of thirty released. Sincerely, Mr. Gink — MZ          You should be commended for releasing 29, not admonished for keeping one.Seems to me that you might be better to lambast someone who threatens the existence of the population by unchecked and uncontrolled unethical outlaw activity. The only real sin in using a resource is in waste or destruction of it. The resposibility that comes with the right of use is to insure protection from waste and destruction. Careful management (by management I don’t mean stocking programs) t

I don’t know if you’ve ever seen a steelhead let alone caught one – steelhead are extrememly resilent; mortalities are low with all sorts    of tackle; in BC steelhead for hatchery brood are kept for week and even   months and mostly caught with hook and line; mortality is less than    5% well under – for a good steelheader 30 a year isn’t a large number – chances are of the 29 George released none died So while what you say is nice it doesn’t relate to the post. Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -. I probably never visit that place again, for fear that I may slip and mention that I actually use HOOKs to catch fish. I not making any comparisons between he and you, mind you. Oh, I love the Gink, by the way.                                     Tight lines,                                     Stephen Di Cerbo

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I think C&R itself has contributed more than many of us would care to admit to the degradation of many trout waters.  It has created a false sense that because we C&R we in doing so commit no harm, so we may go and do as we please.  I know of at least 2-3 C&R only waters that today absolutely suck as fisheries, because the bottoms are all ripped up, the banks all pounded down and the fish C&R’d to death.

All too often, c&r is used as a way to "fish more," and feel good about it.  More and more, I have heard people say that if they were keeping fish on a prolific stream, they might be done fishing in less than an hour, but if they release everything, they can fish all day.  Most of them accept that c&r mortality is probably around 10%, but believe that their personal rate is much lower, like 1%.  Some of them learned to flyfish about a year ago. Fishing less can be difficult, but face it, catching 50-100 fish in a day sounds a lot like gluttony, IMHO.  There’s no reason to catch more fish when you’re releasing them than you would if you were keeping them (is there?).  It’s more difficult to be sure, since you’re not restricted by law, but by self-discipline, but it can make for a more relaxed day when you’re not trying to see how many fish you can catch in a day. CQ

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IN support and response of George and others I too forward some opinions. Heritage is but an eliquant excuse.  I believe that within the FFing community those who take a fish or two are considered as unholy.  Many threads have been spun on this topic i know.  THe point I wish to make is that the users of ANY resource are diverse.  The chance to keep fish is what fuels some, and the chance to C&R others.  What must be remebered by all us is the resource. Many different management stategies have been tried across north america, some working and some not.  The C&R strategy is but one.  I think as we sit and look at others and their use within a strategy that moderation and toleration are required.  A quote to potententially contemplate "Anyone can manage the resource.  It’s managing the users that presents the problem" Aldo Leopold. Something else to consider on this topic is the basic population structure of a fishery.  To look at the number of any one age of fish graphically sees many young and few old (or small/large).  THis is the basis for the slot limits some of you may know so well.  This method allows for both C&R volentary or regualted as well as kill, always keeping the population in mind. Finally to end this rant, FF’ers are but one of the multitude of fishers out there.  We tend to fish streams and fish for trout and that’s where our world ends.  In Canada, Ontario where I live each spring on any lake whihc holds pickerel (Walleye) a floatila of boats forms whihc one could walk across (in certain places).  These anglers do not sport flyrods and do intend on taking fish home.  So then in looking at all fishermen of all types, I would put forward the thought that keeping fish is "what’s done" and C&R is still a mystery to most. What I advocate is a concern for the resource by each induvidual.   Understanding whats going on within a system allows for true concern and protection of any system.  To just do something because it’s the "norm" is not the way to manage or use a resource. Thoughts to consider every time one goes fishing.  The act of wading may be of greater concern then catching a realesing or keeping a fish.   Further that the fish most of use seek are "naturalized", that is with little exception rainbows came from west slope drainges (i.e. the pacific), browns came from germany and brookies from the north and east. The fish we seek are aliens which forced out the natives.   Don’t get me wrong, I love to fish, and fish for rainbows, and browns, these are just things to consider. Ian

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well said; I agree completely. it’s time to move beyond a simple C&R vs C&K debate and find ways of returning quality to the experience. And who gets to define Quality of Experience ?  I could catch a 15 pounder from the Frying Pan river and have zero QOE. TimW There was a time when openning day on the Battenkill was an event! People arrived the evenning before, built fires, drank some, swapped stories…now days you are very lucky to find a fisherman on the Battenkill, much less catch a fish…in fact VT Fish and Game have been trying to complete a creel study on the river but have not been able to survey enough fisherman…because the fisherman aren’t there!  Now, a big part of the Battenkills problem has been the 12 fish limit on the river and live bait fisherman killing their limit.  There is no quality experience left for anyone…period!  Somewhere out there is the balance that will restore the quality of experience for all fishers…being absolute about any one agenda..other than doing what is right for the fish…is not going to return the quality fishing experience to the Battenkill.

Extremely interesting to me.   I might have to give the Battenkill a whirl, sounds like my kind of river. Give me the possibility of a fish, however remote, and solitude over many fish and fishermen any day of the week. TimW

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Nice post,

Yes, it was….. but Catch and Kill is far from the greatest threat to our fisheries.

I would say amen to that. In fact I think one could argue that management of a fishery may well require some catch and kill to maintain a healthy population.

It will require much more than that.  It will require a whole different approach.  Lotteries, moratoriums, and other methods of reducing the usage of our trout waters are needed to reduce habitat degradation and to promote renewal of wild stocks. But lets talk *Heritage* for a moment.  Lets talk about the Heritage to cut the forest, mine the mountains and use our rivers for sewers. We pass off these heritages as *Rights*…I find it very difficult to accept from some of the people that post to this newsgroup their obsession with catch and release, and their unwillingness to be equally militant regarding the damage done by industry to our streams.

I too find it difficult to accept this near-religious fervor many hold for the "Sacred Cow" (C&R), especially when the real damage to our waters continue unabated. I think C&R itself has contributed more than many of us would care to admit to the degradation of many trout waters.  It has created a false sense that because we C&R we in doing so commit no harm, so we may go and do as we please.  I know of at least 2-3 C&R only waters that today absolutely suck as fisheries, because the bottoms are all ripped up, the banks all pounded down and the fish C&R’d to death. I’m not advocating C&K here.  What I am advocating is a kinder & gentler approach to how we view our rivers, and what we as fishers are doing to them.  We need to lighten up. </c — Chaz Clover "Hemoroids. There, I said it!"

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is my view that although Catch and Kill is viewed by many as ‘A Heritage’ to a right to kill is in fact rightfully going the way of the passenger pigeon and bison mentality.  Like it or not.  This is not to say that taking fish to eat that are within the legal limit is wrong. It is getting to be tougher or harder to justify the taking under the old ruse of need.  As our wildlife inventories decrease daily under the weight of a burgeoning population explosion, the concept begins to sink in its own quicksand

Question:

hi fly fish mates, I am looking for someone living near an orvis shop. in the future i need to order my regular stuff, like leaders, fly’s etc. So if you wanna help me, with first : sending the latest orvis brochure and when i like to order some help, please E mail me !

Steer your favorite web browser to this URL: <http://www.alloutdoors.com/orvis/Catalog/Catalog.html I believe they even have the ability to order via the web with secured transactions. Good luck, Joe Webb Atlanta Mac User Group (AMUG)

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: hi fly fish mates, : I am looking for someone living near an orvis shop. : in the future i need to order my regular stuff, like leaders, fly’s etc. : So if you wanna help me, with first : sending the latest orvis brochure and : when i like to order some help, please E mail me ! Orvis *HAS* mail order!  I don’t understand why you need someone to order for you? Jon Porter

Response:

hi fly fish mates, I am looking for someone living near an orvis shop. in the future i need to order my regular stuff, like leaders, fly’s etc. So if you wanna help me, with first : sending the latest orvis brochure and when i like to order some help, please E mail me !

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Question:

<SNIP are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit. I would be real surprised if Montana planted any fish.  Because of the good population of brown trout, which are resistant to WD, they still have fish in the infected rivers.  Besides,wasn’t Montana the first state to figure out that people will travel long distances to catch "wild" fish?  

   I don’t mean to change the subject, but the original question has recently become even more intriguing than when I originally posed it.  The Yellowstone is the last wild river in the lower 48, but that doesn’t seem to be so important now that a few springcreeks have succumbed to what wild rivers naturally do on occasion (flood and change that is).  Stocking wild rivers when the rainbows disappear is similar to damming wild rivers when the largely man-made springcreeks disappear.  They are both justified with tourist dollars.  Of course it remains to be seen what they will actually do on the Yellowstone.  I am a cynic but I hope I am wrong. -al

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<SNIP are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit.

I would be real surprised if Montana planted any fish.  Because of the good population of brown trout, which are resistant to WD, they still have fish in the infected rivers.  Besides,wasn’t Montana the first state to figure out that people will travel long distances to catch "wild" fish?   Do you think people would travel long distances to catch hatchery planters??  I can see the ads now: "Come to Big Sky Country to catch our imitation rainbows reared in concrete runways by the thousands and behaviourly modified with regular feedings of Purina Trout Chow (floating variety – a reddish brown color).  The "hot" fly this week (and every week) – either a brown Goddard Caddis with the hackle and antenna removed or a size10 brown beetle.  If the fish aren’t rising just throw out a handful of pea gravel (sounds like PTC hitting the water).  Guaranteed to make them rise (and since your fly is the only thing floating they’ll hit it thinking it’s PTC).  Come on down!"  I guarantee you I wouldn’t and I don’t think very many people would – and they know that.                                         Just my .02                                                 Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I have a few questions about whirling disease I hope someone knowledgeable can answer.  Any realistic estimates on how long it would take a river that has been hit hard by the disease (the Madison for example) to recover naturally without stocking?  Years?  Decades?  Never? Will the parasite die off after a period with no juvenile rainbows, making the river suitable for repopulation?  Can a significant portion of fry survive to sexual maturity, or does reproduction halt completely?  It seems to me that by the time the river recovers to a point that it is suitable for a rainbow population again that the surviving trout, if any, would be too old to spawn.   Let’s suppose that it is only a matter of time before all the wild rainbow fisheries in the west are affected.  While it is awful to imagine, it seems realistic unless we find a way to kill the parasite.  After all, rivers that are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit.   I hope this initiates some useful discussion. -al

I am not an expert, but I have read that whirling disease has been around for over 200 years since it was first discovered in Europe.  So our environment has been successfully dealing with it for quiet a while. It can be spread by man and animals, so if fishing were banned, it would still migrate to new streams. I was fortunate enough to talk to a very experinced guide in Montana a few weeks ago.  His opinion on the disease is that its effects are minimal, and that the low count of frey is due to the extended fishing season ( to bring in the tourist bucks) and the trampling of the spawning beds by well intentioned fishermen. H.Payne

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The spring creeks aren’t largely man made…they had allways existed and had fallen into disrepair from years of neglect and cattle grazing…they have been rehabilitated by man…veggitation restored, silt removed, etc…I will be very surprised if Montana increases it’s stocking program…there is no need…it’s so ironic that EVERYONE is SO concerned with whirling disease when the biggest threat to our Montana fisheries remains water quality….stop the Seven-Up Pete mine on the Blackfoot…restore the pre 1994 water quality standards!!!

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These responses are part fact and part my own distilled opinion…

I have heard that rivers with a substantial elevation drop are less susceptible to WD. Can anyone verify this? Thanks, Mitch

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Al,    The discussions I’ve monitored predict that a certain percentage of the population will be resistant to WD.  These fish will reproduce, passing on their resistance.  After a few generations, equilibrium will be restored.  If we leave nature alone, she’ll do what she has done for million of years– repair and improve herself. But then, my boss calls me a stary-eyed optomist! Tight lines, Charley

Jonathan Cook’s response has indicated -and there is evidence from several Eastern and Western states to substantiate this- that the presence of the parasite does not immediately lead to the symptoms of infections, eg skeletal deformations, ‘whirling’, black tail.  Whether or not this means that a resident population has developed an immune response to the parasite is still debatable.  Published reports indicate that there is some antibody response to the presence of the parasite, however this may or may not lead to removal of the parasite by known immune response pathways. The primary reason whirling disease is so devastating is the attack on skelatal material that has not ossified.  So survival/morbidity depends on the presence of the parasite, its apparent mandatory passage through the intermediate host, the Tubifex worm, the release of the infectious stage of the parasite, and attachment to the host fish–all at a time when the fish has not undergone ossification of the site of attack (the spine and some head skeleton regions).  So survival is dependent on the life histories of the parasite, its intermediate host and the main host. All of the fish so far discussed are at risk, although there is a gradation that increases from browns to cutts to rainbows.  Someone rightly pointed out that the primary target for the present are rainbows which are the progeny of planted fish – I believe but am not sure that Montana stopped planting fish in rivers in the late 70’s, but continue to do so in lakes in the state.  I am more concerned on the fate of native, wild fish (eg the cutts) than those that have been moved from other locations (the rainbow and brown). Don

Response:

I have heard that rivers with a substantial elevation drop are less susceptible to WD. Can anyone verify this? My guess is that yes, this is a big factor in susceptibility. A high gradient stream doesn’t play good host to the tubifex worm, and is less fertile in general. Thus, the WD spore concentration will be less during the ossification period of the young trout’s skeleton. More trout live, and the overall affect is less. I’d say a good example of this is the Big Thompson. Very little effect.

Or the Roaring Fork ? TimW

Response:

These responses are part fact and part my own distilled opinion… I have heard that rivers with a substantial elevation drop are less susceptible to WD. Can anyone verify this? Thanks, Mitch

One of the stages in the WD parasites’ life is in the tubifex worm. These worms live in the mud on the bottom of a river. A large elevation drop generally means faster water, and no mud accumulation. No mud, no worms, no place for the WD parasite to accumulate. Also faster water means a dead rotting WD infested carcass doesn’t go to the bottom to spread it’s spores. It gets swept away. Darryl Hayashida

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These responses are part fact and part my own distilled opinion… I have heard that rivers with a substantial elevation drop are less susceptible to WD. Can anyone verify this? Thanks, Mitch One of the stages in the WD parasites’ life is in the tubifex worm. These worms live in the mud on the bottom of a river. A large elevation drop generally means faster water, and no mud accumulation. No mud, no worms, no place for the WD parasite to accumulate. Also faster water means a dead rotting WD infested carcass doesn’t go to the bottom to spread it’s spores. It gets swept away.

Does this latter posit a positive argument for catch and kill ? TimW

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These responses are part fact and part my own distilled opinion… I have heard that rivers with a substantial elevation drop are less susceptible to WD. Can anyone verify this? Thanks, Mitch One of the stages in the WD parasites’ life is in the tubifex worm. These worms live in the mud on the bottom of a river. A large elevation drop generally means faster water, and no mud accumulation. No mud, no worms, no place for the WD parasite to accumulate. Also faster water means a dead rotting WD infested carcass doesn’t go to the bottom to spread it’s spores. It gets swept away. Does this latter posit a positive argument for catch and kill ? TimW

Not really.  ’Cuz the fish killed by WD are fry that you wouldn’t catch anyway.  ’Course, I suppose larger fish could be host to it without being killed by it.  But, taking all the fish out of the system to save the system, somehow, seems short-sighted to me. Tight lines and straight fish, Charley

Response:

. Most hard-hit waters are tailwaters — no runoff, constant temps, and lots of moss and mud for tubifex worms (the other host).

Hi Jon, and now Gas Bubble disease can be added to the list of problems in tailwaters. A recent study on the Colorado River states:         …Trout sampled exhibited higher symptoms of both whirling disease         and gas bubble trauma in stream sections with high saturation levels         than those with lower saturation levels. These results indicate a         combined effect of whirling disease and gas bubble trauma is affecting         young -of-the-year rainbow and brown trout in the study area. regards, Mike

Response:

Of course, this applies to wild fish. If it’s a hatchery fish, keep it. Darryl Hayashida

how do you distinguish a hatchery fish from a wild one ? just curious (i’m a strict C&R guy) — phone +303-492-3504       |  Dept. of Chemistry & Biochemistry fax +303-492-5894         |  University of Colorado at Boulder

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    I have a few questions about whirling disease I hope someone knowledgeable can answer.  Any realistic estimates on how long it would take a river that has been hit hard by the disease (the Madison for example) to recover naturally without stocking?  Years?  Decades?  Never? Will the parasite die off after a period with no juvenile rainbows, making the river suitable for repopulation?  Can a significant portion of fry survive to sexual maturity, or does reproduction halt completely?  It seems to me that by the time the river recovers to a point that it is suitable for a rainbow population again that the surviving trout, if any, would be too old to spawn.    Are steelhead susceptible?    Let’s suppose that it is only a matter of time before all the wild rainbow fisheries in the west are affected.  While it is awful to imagine, it seems realistic unless we find a way to kill the parasite.  After all, rivers that are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit.    I hope this initiates some useful discussion. -al

Al,         The discussions I’ve monitored predict that a certain percentage of the population will be resistant to WD.  These fish will reproduce, passing on their resistance.  After a few generations, equilibrium will be restored.  If we leave nature alone, she’ll do what she has done for million of years– repair and improve herself. But then, my boss calls me a stary-eyed optomist! Tight lines, Charley

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Of course, this applies to wild fish. If it’s a hatchery fish, keep it. Darryl Hayashida how do you distinguish a hatchery fish from a wild one ? just curious (i’m a strict C&R guy) In the area I fish in, a stocker is a 10 to 12 inch rainbow with tattered fins and a dark almost black back.They all look the same, as if they were cranked out by an assembly line. The fins are tattered because they grow up packed into a concrete pen where their fins rub against the walls and each other. The hatchery fish also tend to nip each others fins. Probably out of irritation or maybe lack of anything else to do. Their backs are black because the have no way to get out of the sun and fish skin reacts to strong sunlight just like human skin does – increased melanin, or in other words, a suntan. Darryl Hayashida

Here in Oregon, the hatchery workers clip the adipose fin (the one located on the back behind the main (dorsal?) fin). Andy Clark Albany, OR

Response:

Text deleted… In the end it will be the hatchery raised WD exposed fish that has the best chance of survival and passing on resistance to its offspring. regards, Mike

We are talking about two different animals here. In my disscusions with fishery biologists in the area I fish in, I found out that the hatchery fish have a very low survival rate. On the order of 2 to 3 percent. One of the reasons is that the "catchable" size stocked is 10 to 12 inches. Any fish raised for the better portion of a year on Purina Trout Chow isn’t going to recognize a caddis or mayfly or a nymph as food. All I’m saying is in my area stockers are going to die anyway, so you might as well keep them. This is probably different in your area. Also, the area I fish in has had WD for decades. It still has wild trout. They seem to be resistant, and C&R seems to be a positive factor, preserving resistant fish to breed, not a cause of spreading WD. Go ahead and post your rebuttal, and I will read it, but this debate will probably go on for years and we, at least I, can’t do a darned thing about WD. So, if you don’t mind, I respectfully bow out of this discussion. I only entered into it again to answer the question on why it appears steep stream gradients don’t have a WD problem. Darryl Hayashida

Response:

Of course, this applies to wild fish. If it’s a hatchery fish, keep it. Darryl Hayashida how do you distinguish a hatchery fish from a wild one ? just curious (i’m a strict C&R guy)

In the area I fish in, a stocker is a 10 to 12 inch rainbow with tattered fins and a dark almost black back.They all look the same, as if they were cranked out by an assembly line. The fins are tattered because they grow up packed into a concrete pen where their fins rub against the walls and each other. The hatchery fish also tend to nip each others fins. Probably out of irritation or maybe lack of anything else to do. Their backs are black because the have no way to get out of the sun and fish skin reacts to strong sunlight just like human skin does – increased melanin, or in other words, a suntan. Darryl Hayashida

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As far as a hatrchery fish goes, if the fish was raised in a WD negative hatchery  (or born in the wild) and placed in a WD positive stream it would never exhibit  signs of WD but could carry millions of spores until its death. But a fish raised in a "lightly infected" WD positve hatchery may only be exposed to a few spores,  at which time the fish becomes immune to WD, and the spore load never increases. Which fish should is the healthiest? In the end it will be the hatchery raised WD exposed fish that has the best chance of survival and passing on resistance to its offspring. regards, Mike

Now, Mike.  Building strawmen arguments and then knocking them down is a crude and not very supportable method of proving your point.  Yes, if I accept that only the two scenarios you’ve outlined exist, your choice is superior.  However, it is possible that a wild trout, or one introduced from a hatchery, may inhabit a "lightly infected" WD positive stream and provide an immunity to WD that is commensurate with your hypothetical Hatchery Fish.  After all, this is Mother Nature we’re discussing here.  She’s anything but linear! I believe that hatcheries have their place, as do wild runs. I believe that catch and release is a tools, and should be used with an awareness of the appropriate application of that tool and its potential short-comings. I believe Flyfishing, much like Monday Night Football, has become much too popular, and in its popularity has suffered from many individuals trying to define it to fit into their paradigm.  It’s still just fishing. Tight Lines, Charley

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No, because if you have just caught a fish that appears healthy, then it either has WD or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t then put it back. If it does, then it might be one of the few fish that are resistant to WD, and if it lives to reproduce, the resistance will be passed on to its offspring. Of course, this applies to wild fish. If it’s a hatchery fish, keep it.

There is absolutely no way to tell if a fish has WD or not, except for the very young fish who were exposed before ther cartilage had formed. These young fish will have deformed spines, heads, and blackened tails. However they do not live very long as they are easy prey, poor competitors, or die as a result of WD.  On the other hand an older fish that is exposed my carry millions of spores and never show any signs. When they die they release these spores that invade the Tubifex worm (intermediate host) that later releases the spores that harm the very young fish. As far as a hatrchery fish goes, if the fish was raised in a WD negative hatchery  (or born in the wild) and placed in a WD positive stream it would never exhibit  signs of WD but could carry millions of spores until its death. But a fish raised in a "lightly infected" WD positve hatchery may only be exposed to a few spores,  at which time the fish becomes immune to WD, and the spore load never increases. Which fish should is the healthiest? In the end it will be the hatchery raised WD exposed fish that has the best chance of survival and passing on resistance to its offspring. regards, Mike

Response:

<snip A recent study on the Colorado River states:..Trout sampled exhibited higher symptoms of both whirling disease      and gas bubble traum=

a in stream sections with high saturation levels than those with lower saturation levels. <snip What exactly is gas bubble trauma? Is this an effect in aerated hydraulics on ??? gills, body surface, or ???? Please elucidate. Jon

Response:

One of the stages in the WD parasites’ life is in the tubifex worm. These worms live in the mud on the bottom of a river. A large elevation drop generally means faster water, and no mud accumulation. No mud, no worms, no place for the WD parasite to accumulate. Also faster water means a dead rotting WD infested carcass doesn’t go to the bottom to spread it’s spores. It gets swept away. Does this latter posit a positive argument for catch and kill ? TimW

No, because if you have just caught a fish that appears healthy, then it either has WD or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t then put it back. If it does, then it might be one of the few fish that are resistant to WD, and if it lives to reproduce, the resistance will be passed on to its offspring. Of course, this applies to wild fish. If it’s a hatchery fish, keep it. Darryl Hayashida

Response:

     Just my $0.02, and I expect I’ll get a flame or two for this.      Rainbows are native to Pacific coast streams.  Sure they grow to a large size, but anytime you transplant fish from their place of origin to a new area, you’re taking a big risk.  Not only are the organisms not adapted to all the vagaraties of the new habiat, even if the populations do thrive, but the other organisms in the new habitat are also not adapted to the imported species.      Cutthroats are native to the Rocky Mountain streams.  They evolved there, in consort with all of the other organisms in the ecosystem.  It would make more sense to revitalize the cutthroat populations, especially with all of their interesting subspecies, than to keep relying on alien species.  Likewise I would rather see more brook trout in eastern streams. Jesse M. Purvis

Response:

   I have a few questions about whirling disease I hope someone knowledgeable can answer.  Any realistic estimates on how long it would take a river that has been hit hard by the disease (the Madison for example) to recover naturally without stocking?  Years?  Decades?  Never? Will the parasite die off after a period with no juvenile rainbows, making the river suitable for repopulation?  Can a significant portion of fry survive to sexual maturity, or does reproduction halt completely?  It seems to me that by the time the river recovers to a point that it is suitable for a rainbow population again that the surviving trout, if any, would be too old to spawn.    Are steelhead susceptible?    Let’s suppose that it is only a matter of time before all the wild rainbow fisheries in the west are affected.  While it is awful to imagine, it seems realistic unless we find a way to kill the parasite.  After all, rivers that are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit.    I hope this initiates some useful discussion. -al

Response:

These responses are part fact and part my own distilled opinion. However, I did attend the WD conference in Denver back in Feb, and have read alot of the papers that were discussed there, so I think I’m reasonably well-informed.   I have a few questions about whirling disease I hope someone knowledgeable can answer.  Any realistic estimates on how long it would take a river that has been hit hard by the disease (the Madison for example) to recover naturally without stocking?  Years?  Decades?  Never?

No one knows – can be any of the above. Depends on what you mean by recover, and on what it is recovering from. However, keep reading, the news isn’t that bad. Will the parasite die off after a period with no juvenile rainbows, making the river suitable for repopulation?

Apparently, yes. Utah killed off a river counting on this. CA has seen watersheds go from testing positive for WD to negative over several years, too. Can a significant portion of fry survive to sexual maturity, or does reproduction halt completely?  It

Yes, a significant portion can survive. It depends on how saturated the water is with WD; and that depends on river conditions. My bet is that many rivers in the west will not support heavy concentrations of WD (ie, enough to drastically affect the rainbow population). Most hard-hit waters are tailwaters — no runoff, constant temps, and lots of moss and mud for tubifex worms (the other host). seems to me that by the time the river recovers to a point that it is suitable for a rainbow population again that the surviving trout, if any, would be too old to spawn.

I am pretty sure that fish spawn all of their adult life. In fact, the older and bigger they are, the more eggs they produce. They just keep getting better!   Are steelhead susceptible?

Probably.   Let’s suppose that it is only a matter of time before all the wild rainbow fisheries in the west are affected.  While it is awful to imagine, it seems realistic unless we find a way to kill the parasite.  After all, rivers that are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  

Yeah, but don’t worry about it. I don’t think it’ll spread as fast as in the past, and, as above, there are many rivers that probably won’t see population crashes, due to the nature of the river itself. Besides, the rainbow isn’t native in much of the west anyways. Its just the CA$H fish — maybe ol’ T-Bone will get his wish of less-crowded waters, after all. Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit.

I don’t think they’ll need to stock. Remember, the Madison was already over 50% browns, so its not like there’s no fish left. Probably Henry’s Fork too. But who knows, I could be wrong. There are many states and many rivers already infected. Overall, it has been very few rivers that have seen population crashes. And these rivers ARE NOT NATURAL. The upper Colorado, the Madison, others in Colorado, do not have natural flows. I don’t think WD will devastate the west. Jon.

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Question:

While looking through some fishing catalogs that have recently made it to my mailbox, a question came to mind… I know that a tapered leader is an option…and so is a knotted taper… my question is, can I use "regular" monofilament for the taper or even the tippet for that matter…I mean, isn’t it all essentially the same stuff? Also, I stumbled across a "Hobbs Creek Combo" in the Bass Pro catalog… it’s a 8-1/2 ft 7 wt w/ a rod bag, wf-7-f line, 100 yd backing and a tapered leader thrown in…all for the unbelievably low price of $94.95…that’s right, only 94.95…so call now…uh, sorry…sales pitc mode…does anyone have any experience with this combo?  or any other combos in this "super-cheapy" range?  There’s also a graphite rod combo for $179.94 that might be a better "investment"…anyhow, if you have the catalog, look on page 50 and 51 and let me know if any of these are worth looking at… Fish on!, JC

Response:

Yes, it’s "all the same stuff".  However, remember that the taper relates to the diameter of the material, not its breaking strength.  And since manufacturers don’t necessarily produce a uniform diameter to strength product, you have to watch it. Four pound test may not be thinner than six pound test from a different manufacturer. Charley

Response:

Yeah it’s all the same stuff. Unless you buy a tapered leader the mono you buy is all level. There are pros & cons to buying as well as tying your own leaders, but as a general rule I would stick to buying tapered. They are certainly more convenient and easier to deal with and I havn’t found a situation where they wouldn’t work. Save yourself the effort of tying, unless you really need a specialized leader (long & fine for drys…etc.).      As per the rod you probably should try to decide how serious you want to be before you buy. Save yourself the money of buying two outfits (a cheap one now & an upgrade later)esp. if you intend to persue the sport for life. I recommend a Sage 590 RPL and a Ross Gunnison reel. This outfit will cover you for 90% of the freshwater fishing you will encounter and will last a lifetime. If you are still concerned about the price check out the Sage Discovery Series (rod, reel, and line) for around $250 the extra investment is definately worth the enjoyment of fishing with better equipment.    TIEFLIE

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