Question:

Hmm…..Do you need a new best friend, Mr. Cooke? /daytripper ("Have Rod, Will Travel"

hey Trip we got a chalk stream in Maine here, I’ve never been up but for you old buddy, I’d make the trip. Flyfish

Response:

Hmm…..Do you need a new best friend, Mr. Cooke? /daytripper ("Have Rod, Will Travel" hey Trip we got a chalk stream in Maine here, I’ve never been up but for you old buddy, I’d make the trip. Flyfish

Just make sure that there is no climb involved, especially no climb with speed bumps liberally placed along the trail! Op

Response:

This is not the case where I fish, and obviously not the case for wild fish in loughs, where you fish. No – usually chalkstreams – Itchen, Test, Wylie and Avon. Not easy water.

My error. I would have thought the chalkstream fish were fairly "educated" as well. ( I have fished the Costa Beck a few times), but I didn

Question:

Yo, Any ROFFers headed to the International Sportsmen’s Expo in Pomona at the Los Angeles County Fairgrounds next week? peace, Mu

Response:

Would love to Mu, was born there but gonna have to settle for the Maryland Fly Fishing Show. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any ROFFers headed to the International Sportsmen’s Expo in Pomona at the Los Angeles County Fairgrounds next week? peace, Mu

Response:

Question:

Warren Findley: Other question.  Where do you find those colored beads at?

Spirit River makes them and I get them from Hunter’s.  You don’t have to tie the grw with them — it’s just an experiment and it seems to work (i.e., I caught fish with them).  Gold and copper work just as well. Dave LaCourse

Response:

The shops I go to only has black, brass, silver, copper and gold.  Is there a place to mail order these or something?  I really like those colored beads.

Some of those strange colored beads are available from Orvis, and knowing Dave I suspect that is where he got his. If you want to mail order some very cool ones check out the plastic ones from Mike Hogue at MWFlytying.com. He has two types of colored plastic beads available, one type sinks and the other type float. Once he bought his Sage 0 weight for bluegill fishing he found that it was too light to be able to use normal metal beadhead flies, so he developed a couple of sources for different plastic beads. Also check out his pattern pages as he has some pretty cool flies on there as well. I think you will enjoy doing business with him. I have been a happy customer for several years now. When he goes to conclaves his mother and father help man his booth. You will have a chance to meet him During the FFF Conclave in August as he is teaching a class there. He knows his stuff and if he is doing a program on warmwater fly fishing you should try to attend if possible. Usual disclaimers, I am just a happy customer.He carries unusual materials at very good prices. I know I always seem to drop another hundred bucks on tying materials each time I order or see him at the Southern Conclave each year.   Big Dale

Response:

Bid D. writes: Some of those strange colored beads are available from Orvis, and knowing Dave I suspect that is where he got his. If you want to mail order some very cool ones check out the plastic ones from Mike Hogue at MWFlytying.com. He has two types of colored plastic beads available, one type sinks and the other type float. Once he bought his Sage 0 weight for bluegill fishing he found that it was too light to be able to use normal metal beadhead flies, so he developed a couple of sources for different plastic beads.

I’ve never seen colored beads at Orvis.  Of course I only go there to buy doggie beds, maple syrup, silk shirts and lamps.  <g  The Spirit River beads are metal, probably alluminum.  The colors are baked on enamel (or so the package says).  I’ve seen and used the plastic ones.  I believe I  also bought them at Hunter’s. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Compliments of Google: http://www.westfly.com/patterns/wet/greenrockworm.htm

You can also tie it without the beadhead.  Just dub the head a dark brown and pull out some on the bottom for legs.

Does anyone know why that LaFontaine tie has such long hackle sticking out for legs?  I don’t get it. — Regards, Jeff Before you buy.

Response:

This is starting to sound a lot like a green-bodied GRHE.   The pattern on westfly.com has legs.   No legs on the LaPlac version? Joe F.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The LaFontaine version is a pretty good fly.  However, THE Green Rock Worm is as follows: Hook:  TMC 2487, size 12 – 16 Bead Head:  Gold, copper, green, black. Body:  V-rib or Larva Lace in the brightest green you can find (almost chartreause). Thorax:  Peacock herl. I sometimes build up the body with thread, making it narrow near the bend and wider near the thorax.  I then coat it with a sparkle polish.  This can be seen between the wraps of the Larva Lace and gives it some flash., Another  variation: Ribbing:  fine gold or copper wire. Body:  Bright green dubbing. You can also tie it without the beadhead.  Just dub the head a dark brown and pull out some on the bottom for legs. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Charlie writes: I think that’s all LaPlac uses<g, I’m sure he’ll post his version. At the first clave I believe he gave away a set of what he said were the various ‘phases’ of the GRW, but I expect they were really just the same pattern tied over the course of a bottle of Stoli<g. — Charlie…

Not really.  Found three new patterns this spring, and they all worked as well. The flies I gave at the clave were all variations of caddis worms/larva/pupa, but not necessarily just the rock worm.  If I remember correctly, there was a grw, a couple of emergers, and a cased caddis.  The grw is a net builder, not a case builder. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Joe F. This is starting to sound a lot like a green-bodied GRHE.   The pattern on westfly.com has legs.   No legs on the LaPlac version?

Normally, no.  But, the worm does have some legs up front, so without the bead head, pull out some of the dubbing to make it bushy.  Works for me……. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Not really.  

I was just kidding. IIRC you included a sheet with some facts about each tie. Very nice. — Charlie…

Response:

Peter Charles (Charlie’s understudy) writes: (snipped hilarity) Also look up GGW, "Green Grenade Warm"  and GTNTW "Green Dynamite Worm" for related ties. Recipe related to me by that famous practionner of the GRW, Louie LaPlac.

ROFL.  Wait until you see the Henry’s Ear (variation of the Hares Ear), the Black Rock Worm, and Henry’s Tail (variation of a PT).   Bring some streamer tying materials to the clave, Peter.  A fellow roffian gifted me with a book on Carrie Stevens and I would like to tie some streamers.  Great book, BTW. Hunter’s Angling has promised a copy for the Maine Clave raffle. Dave LaCourse

Response:

The LaFontaine version is a pretty good fly.  However, THE Green Rock Worm is as follows:

One more question on this one.   You’re using white or light colored thread, yes?   I tied one with black thread & it sure didn’t look like much (duh).    Haven’t found chartreuse Larva Lace locally yet; I’m working with V-rib until I put in an order with H&H. (Maybe I’ll just wait and pick some up in Freeport, then tie ‘em up lakeside by lantern light.   Ah, the romance.) Joe F.

Response:

Joe Fleischman writes: One more question on this one.   You’re using white or light colored thread, yes?   I tied one with black thread & it sure didn’t look like much (duh).   Haven’t found chartreuse Larva Lace locally yet; I’m working with V-rib until I put in an order with H&H. (Maybe I’ll just wait and pick some up in Freeport, then tie ‘em up lakeside by lantern light.   Ah, the romance.) Joe F.

I usually use green thread, but white or whatever should work, *except* black or any other dark color. When are you leaving for Moosehead?  I have your address, so I could send you some along with some larva lace.  No problem. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Should have added, Joe:  Try tying it with dubbing and gold ribbing, with peacock herl at the thorax.  It actually works as well as the v-rib.  V-rib is easier to tie.   Let me know when you are leaving and I will get a CARE package off to you, including some dubbing. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Should have added, Joe:  Try tying it with dubbing and gold ribbing, with peacock herl at the thorax.  It actually works as well as the v-rib.  V-rib is easier to tie.   Let me know when you are leaving and I will get a CARE package off to you, including some dubbing.

Actually, you offered that variation in a previous post.   I think I’m well covered for most of the ingredients except the larva lace.   I have beads in various sizes & colors, dubbing, gold thread, peacock herl, & hooks.   I didn’t spend $200, but I made a respectable dent in a C-note.  :-)   I picked up some Antron dubbing in a sparkle chartreuse that looks neat for the GRW, but I haven’t tied anything with it yet. Joe F.

Response:

Joe, package is ready and will be in the mail tomorrow morning.  I’ve included a couple of different ties, plus two size 20 midges that I *hope* will float vertically.  At least that is the way I tied them to fload.  I have seen these small midges caught in the foam on the Rapid and have tied them from memory — but, I *am* an old geezer, so can’t say they’ll work.  Give ‘em a try and let me know.  Don’t cast them — dab them down-stream in small gentle riffle/current. Dave LaCourse

Response:

One more question on this one.   You’re using white or light colored thread, yes?   I tied one with black thread & it sure didn’t look like much (duh).   Haven’t found chartreuse Larva Lace locally yet; I’m working with V-rib until I put in an order with H&H.

Couldn’t you use clear Larva Lace wrapped over chartreuse floss? Regards, Jeff

Response:

jeff c. Yep.  But it doesn’t look very much like the natural.  The bright green larva lace or the dubbing ribbed mimics the natural. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Should have added, Joe:  Try tying it with dubbing and gold ribbing, with peacock herl at the thorax.  It actually works as well as the v-rib.  V-rib is easier to tie.   Let me know when you are leaving and I will get a CARE package off to you, including some dubbing. Dave LaCourse

I’ve tied the BHGRW three different ways: using the bright green lace wo/rib, using a bright green floss under clear lace again sans rib, and using the same floss with a gold wire rib. Always a bead (sometimes brass, sometimes tungsten) and always peacock herl. daytripper (It’s all good! ;^)

Response:

Joe, package is ready and will be in the mail tomorrow morning.  I’ve included a couple of different ties, plus two size 20 midges that I *hope* will float vertically.  At least that is the way I tied them to fload.  I have seen these small midges caught in the foam on the Rapid and have tied them from memory — but, I *am* an old geezer, so can’t say they’ll work.  Give ‘em a try and let me know.  Don’t cast them — dab them down-stream in small gentle riffle/current.

Thanks.   I’ll wait with much anticipation.   Joe F. (Just downloaded new newsgroup software & have no idea if this will appear correctly; but if so, I’ll finally be able to read ROFF at home.)

Response:

Thanks.   I’ll wait with much anticipation.

I apologize for my roffian Grandpa Joe.  "fload" should be "float."  He may not be able to type worth a crap, but I’ll be damned if he can’t drive a car like all hell.  Just wish that lead foot would have found its way out to the clave. Actually I am replying because I really do have a question.  I tied up a dozen of these bad boys today and they didn’t exactly turn out quite like I hoped, but they are pretty damn neat.  My first problem was the I got the medium larva lace instead of small because it looked small enough. Second was that it is too light in color.  I mean this s.o.b. looks like some kind of radioactive glow stick!  Might work well like that, but my question is would changing to a more olive thread help tone it down a bit? Other question.  Where do you find those colored beads at?  The shops I go to only has black, brass, silver, copper and gold.  Is there a place to mail order these or something?  I really like those colored beads. The caddis is out and about over here so I plan on using a bunch of these during the clave.  I devoted this weekend to tying caddis and quit and moved on to other things out of boredom already.  I have been at the vise all day.  I did the caddis Herman tied, Dave’s GRW, X-caddis, Goddard caddis, and EHCs. Got a little bored so I moved on to humpies and now am at stimulators in size 12-16.  Just going crazy over here.  Even tied up a bunch of those tiny little things Willi tied for the fly swap.  Those were pretty fun and not all that difficult once you get used to the material.  The main problem with those is actually seeing them.  Thank god for that magnifier light I have and I even have 20/20+ vision! <g BTW, Joe you made it out of the fly shop easier than I did today.  I fell between you and Dave.  Nearly broke myself and the clave still hasn’t started. Oh well, bills can wait another month <g Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

Thanks to Dave L’s reminder, I began looking through Deja News for intructions on tying the GRW (I’d have sworn it was posted here once before).   Couldn’t find it.   How do I tie this?   Or do you have to kill me if you tell me?  :-) Joe F.

Response:

Thanks to Dave L’s reminder, I began looking through Deja News for intructions on tying the GRW (I’d have sworn it was posted here once before).   Couldn’t find it.   How do I tie this?   Or do you have to kill me if you tell me?  :-)

Compliments of Google: http://www.westfly.com/patterns/wet/greenrockworm.htm — Charlie…

Response:

Compliments of Google: http://www.westfly.com/patterns/wet/greenrockworm.htm

Yep, thanks.   I found that one as well as a few more, none of which seem to agree on any component material except maybe their color.   If there’s a "ROFF standard" version, tested and sworn to success by our numerous and talented field staff, I’d love to hear it.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

If there’s a "ROFF standard" version, tested and sworn to success by our numerous and talented field staff, I’d love to hear it.  :-)

I think that’s all LaPlac uses<g, I’m sure he’ll post his version. At the first clave I believe he gave away a set of what he said were the various ‘phases’ of the GRW, but I expect they were really just the same pattern tied over the course of a bottle of Stoli<g. — Charlie…

Response:

Joe F. writes: Compliments of Google: http://www.westfly.com/patterns/wet/greenrockworm.htm Yep, thanks.   I found that one as well as a few more, none of which seem to agree on any component material except maybe their color.   If there’s a "ROFF standard" version, tested and sworn to success by our numerous and talented field staff, I’d love to hear it.  :-) Joe F.

The LaFontaine version is a pretty good fly.  However, THE Green Rock Worm is as follows: Hook:  TMC 2487, size 12 – 16 Bead Head:  Gold, copper, green, black. Body:  V-rib or Larva Lace in the brightest green you can find (almost chartreause). Thorax:  Peacock herl. I sometimes build up the body with thread, making it narrow near the bend and wider near the thorax.  I then coat it with a sparkle polish.  This can be seen between the wraps of the Larva Lace and gives it some flash., Another  variation: Ribbing:  fine gold or copper wire. Body:  Bright green dubbing. You can also tie it without the beadhead.  Just dub the head a dark brown and pull out some on the bottom for legs. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Yep, thanks.   I found that one as well as a few more, none of which seem to agree on any component material except maybe their color.   If there’s a "ROFF standard" version, tested and sworn to success by our numerous and talented field staff, I’d love to hear it.  :-) Joe F.

ROFF standard GRW. 3 lb. rock mashed up worm green paint XINK Take three or four big juicy worms, place them in a bowl, empty the contents of the XINK bottle into a bowl then mash worms and mix thoroughly.  Take a nice smooth rock, spray with flourescent green paint then when dry, spread the XINK soaked mashed worm all over it. Keep refridgerated. Instructions on use: Locate salmonid Throw rock at it. Stand by with net to scoop salmonid. If the rock misses the salmonid, remain vigilant as within a few moments, the toxic chemicals in XINK will undoutedly result in the demise of the salmonid.  Do not dispense with the the mashed worm as it aids in the distribution of the XINK.  The green paint allows the fisherman to locate his rock should he ever put it down amongst other rocks. Also look up GGW, "Green Grenade Warm"  and GTNTW "Green Dynamite Worm" for related ties. Recipe related to me by that famous practionner of the GRW, Louie LaPlac. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Question:

you have your harness, you have your carabener(sp) you have your parachute with the long lanyard you might carry a couple more carabeners for a classic 3 bean’er attachment for lowering your self to the ground R. (repelling all the way down) Williams – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – a saw or better judgement

Response:

a saw or better judgement

I recall that a self-rescue kit for tree landings was standard equipment among Tennessee/Georgia HG pilots when I flew there too many years ago. Consisted of one of those flexible-wire saws, a length of strong cord, some basic first-aid material and a whistle. may have been some other items, but it was along time ago. It was not for nothing that the local club is the ‘Tennessee Tree Toppers’, and yes, I qualified. Didn’t need the saw, though, ‘cos I fell straight out. Noel

Response:

Does anyone know of a design or plan for a tree rescue kit?

A recent issue of paragliding magazine had just such a plan.  I don’t remember the exact issue but you can probably find out at the USHGA web site <http://www.ushga.org. — Forrest Keller

Response:

Yes It is called "Tooth Floss" and comes in small boxes from the chemist. Strong enough to be dropped from the tree and haul up a climbing rope! Stewart Reid

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Does anyone know of a design or plan for a tree rescue kit?

Response:

a saw

Response:

Does anyone know of a design or plan for a tree rescue kit?

Check out http://www.kurious.org/PG/treeresq.htm Thanks to Lowell Skoog. Floyd Rogers

Response:

Hi from Dwayne, A box of Dental Floss and say 5 2ft long ropes in your harness pocket. The dental floss is used to pull up a heaver rope when you are stuck in a tree. The 2ft ropes are used to tie yourself or your glider to the tree. I started my hang gliding in Wellington in 1995 back flying with Grant Tatham and company. In Dallas Texas now – I hope to visit NZ again soon. Regards, Dwayne Sinclair.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Does anyone know of a design or plan for a tree rescue kit?

Response:

Does anyone know of a design or plan for a tree rescue kit?

Response:

a saw

or better judgement

Response:

Does anyone know of a design or plan for a tree rescue kit? Here in the NW USA, we have lots and lots of trees.  Unfortunately,

sometimes instead of flying over them, we fly into them.  We have a couple of guys in our club who put on a tree rescue clinic.  They also have recommendations for tree rescue kits.  Our trees are very tall (200 feet) so we have to be prepared.  I don’t know much about tree life in New Zealand, but in the Eastern US, a lot of places only have 30 foot trees. Anyway, we have very long tested ropes, at least 100 foot long for out here. About pencil width. Some people fly with them, others leave it in the truck. I leave it in the truck and carry fishing line in my PG harness.  In the HG I don’t have as much of penetration problems, but maybe I should carry it there too. I think 20 lb fishing test line is good to get the rope up to you.  One trick I used is to run over the line with my truck. I know it sounds weird, but it makes the spool much smaller without damaging the integrity of the spool or the line. It fits into harness better that way. You should also have an extra carabiner, you should know how to do the Munter hitch to lower yourself down, use the bowline knot to tie yourself or stuff off.  A lot of guys bring like an eight foot strap to immediately tie oneself into the trunk of the tree so you don’t fall while you’re getting yourself together.  You can really tire yourself out holding onto the tree wating for help.  I think those are the main things. John Saltveit Oregon NW USA

Response:

maybe supplies for a tree fort

Response:

Question:

Ok, this is really *our* impression of Cancun.  I am not trying to provoke any major responses to this, as it is just an opinion from our recent trip there. First of all I did actually like the beaches on/near the Omni Cancun hotel. The beaches were very nice, sand very white and soft and not hot. The water is absolutely beautiful with vivid colors of light-dark blue. Beautiful! If you are a serious beach bum you will love this aspect of Cancun.  I hear that you really need to check out the property you are interested in because some of the beaches have been washed out from past storms and the brochures do not mention that tiny fact.  Most are ok though. The second nice thing is that the bus system is GREAT.  Only 3 pesos (about 20 cents).  The buses run 24 hours a day and every 4-5 minutes.  Easy to use, and much cheaper than cabs which run a minimum of 30 pesos (3$). Now the things I didn’t like: The shop keepers at the various flea markets have very very few bargain items.  Most of the items we were interested in were expensive and the shop keepers really really tried to make you feel bad for being a "wealthy" American who "gets vacations". All in all I can get REAL bargains in Nuevo Larado (Texas/Mexico border city).  If you have LOTS of money and don’t mind turning loose of it then you might feel differently than I/we did. In general the city and resort area had a bad "smell" most places we went. There was an occasional stench that smelled like sewar water or something to that effect. This was noticed most everywhere and we weren’t really sure where it was coming from.  On those lines, when you’re traveling down a street, if you look closely you’ll notice off to the side of the roads there appears to be garbage, rubbish and various other "trash" items that are usually behind shrubs, etc… It’s as if they decided to build a road and "scraped" all the surrounding rubbish off to the side of the road and tried to hide it with shrubs. Expensive, expensive, expensive.  There are no places you can go to have fun or eat or drink without paying a premium price.  And if your hotel or club offers "happy hours" it is for them not for you.  Happy hours at our hotel and some bars are no value.  Our drinks had very little liquor in them and the prices were still high even for watered down drinks.  The only exception is beer, they haven’t found a way to water that down (I think). We also paid $10. (USD) to get into a popular disco/dance club called Christine’s.  It was nice but the drinks were expensive and small and the bar was nice but not as nice as many of our US bars.  Personally I wouldn’t recommend it for the cover alone. Last but not least is all the begging that goes on there.  The vendors are so aggressive that you can’t do or go anywhere without feeling like you’re being accosted.  Small children are just as bad as the grown up folks except a lot (not all) of the vendors will try to intimidate you into buying and if you offer them a price they act insulted and when you leave their shop they start insulting you (Coral Negro flea market). This goes on pretty much everywhere and after the first day it’s all one can do just to go somewhere without being accosted over and over. PS: We are from Texas (good mexican food) and in our opinion we did not like any of the "mexican" food there.  We ate at Senor Frogs as well and the meal was just "so-so".  All of the restaurants did not have spicy mexican food and it was pretty much bland.  I cannot recommend any place except Pat O’ Brians (Great nachos and bbq sandwich). If anyone wants further info please feel free to email me directly at:

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, this is really *our* impression of Cancun.  I am not trying to provoke any major responses to this, as it is just an opinion from our recent trip there. First of all I did actually like the beaches on/near the Omni Cancun hotel. The beaches were very nice, sand very white and soft and not hot. The water is absolutely beautiful with vivid colors of light-dark blue. Beautiful! If you are a serious beach bum you will love this aspect of Cancun.  I hear that you really need to check out the property you are interested in because some of the beaches have been washed out from past storms and the brochures do not mention that tiny fact.  Most are ok though. The second nice thing is that the bus system is GREAT.  Only 3 pesos (about 20 cents).  The buses run 24 hours a day and every 4-5 minutes.  Easy to use, and much cheaper than cabs which run a minimum of 30 pesos (3$). Now the things I didn’t like: The shop keepers at the various flea markets have very very few bargain items.  Most of the items we were interested in were expensive and the shop keepers really really tried to make you feel bad for being a "wealthy" American who "gets vacations". All in all I can get REAL bargains in Nuevo Larado (Texas/Mexico border city).  If you have LOTS of money and don’t mind turning loose of it then you might feel differently than I/we did. In general the city and resort area had a bad "smell" most places we went. There was an occasional stench that smelled like sewar water or something to that effect. This was noticed most everywhere and we weren’t really sure where it was coming from.  On those lines, when you’re traveling down a street, if you look closely you’ll notice off to the side of the roads there appears to be garbage, rubbish and various other "trash" items that are usually behind shrubs, etc… It’s as if they decided to build a road and "scraped" all the surrounding rubbish off to the side of the road and tried to hide it with shrubs. Expensive, expensive, expensive.  There are no places you can go to have fun or eat or drink without paying a premium price.  And if your hotel or club offers "happy hours" it is for them not for you.  Happy hours at our hotel and some bars are no value.  Our drinks had very little liquor in them and the prices were still high even for watered down drinks.  The only exception is beer, they haven’t found a way to water that down (I think). We also paid $10. (USD) to get into a popular disco/dance club called Christine’s.  It was nice but the drinks were expensive and small and the bar was nice but not as nice as many of our US bars.  Personally I wouldn’t recommend it for the cover alone. Last but not least is all the begging that goes on there.  The vendors are so aggressive that you can’t do or go anywhere without feeling like you’re being accosted.  Small children are just as bad as the grown up folks except a lot (not all) of the vendors will try to intimidate you into buying and if you offer them a price they act insulted and when you leave their shop they start insulting you (Coral Negro flea market). This goes on pretty much everywhere and after the first day it’s all one can do just to go somewhere without being accosted over and over. PS: We are from Texas (good mexican food) and in our opinion we did not like any of the "mexican" food there.  We ate at Senor Frogs as well and the meal was just "so-so".  All of the restaurants did not have spicy mexican food and it was pretty much bland.  I cannot recommend any place except Pat O’ Brians (Great nachos and bbq sandwich). If anyone wants further info please feel free to email me directly at:

I got the same impression last time we were there in ‘92.  The only thing I would have to add was the time share terrorists.  We would be walking along enjoying the warm breeze when out of nowhere some guy would come flying out of a moving vehicle and they wouldn’t leave you alone.  Finally we said we were leaving that afternoon and they would give up.  We were there in 1983 and loved it, so we were extremely disappointed when we went back and that will be our last trip to Cancun.  We ventured a little further south to Playa del Carmen and loved it there.  My fear now to go back is that the same thing is happening there as happened in Cancun. Just my 2 cents. Diane

Response:

– thanks to spam bots, my address is despammed, if you are a real person, you should be able to figure it out. This part of the post I can’t let go.  I am also from Texas originally and what you are used to is NOT mexican food.  It is Tex-Mex.  You can not compare mexican food to what you are used to. Mexican food is not spicy. Mexican food rarely contains beef, the land doesn’t support beef well. Chicken, fish, and goats are the mainstay and it varys by the region.  By the way, I like both Tex-mex and mexican food.  I can’t say anything about the food in cancun as I have not been there, but don’t base your comparisons to your local cuisine, its comparing apples and oranges.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PS: We are from Texas (good mexican food) and in our opinion we did not like any of the "mexican" food there.  We ate at Senor Frogs as well and the meal was just "so-so".  All of the restaurants did not have spicy mexican food and it was pretty much bland.  I cannot recommend any place except Pat O’ Brians (Great nachos and bbq sandwich). If anyone wants further info please feel free to email me directly at:

Response:

Don, Being a native Texan I also know the difference between Mexican food and Tex-Mex food.  I never meant to imply they were one in the same HOWEVER there is a difference in what I expected.  I expected Mexican food (I was in Mexico) with a Yucatan flair… things wrapped/cooked in banana leaves, pescado (fish) dishes, etc…  The food we ate down in Cancun were typically recommended highly by the various hotels and some guidebooks but they always turned out to be bad Mexican food without any particular nuance of the region they were supposed to represent (Yucatan).  My comments about spicy wasn’t meaning HOT, I just meant that I preferred my food with some form of taste to it.  The food from Cancun (for the mostpart) was tasteless and appeared to be a poor copy of Tex-Mex (or that’s the way it looked to us). PS: I’ve already received several direct emails agreeing with me so I know that I’m not crazy M. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — thanks to spam bots, my address is despammed, if you are a real person, you should be able to figure it out. This part of the post I can’t let go.  I am also from Texas originally and what you are used to is NOT mexican food.  It is Tex-Mex.  You can not compare mexican food to what you are used to. Mexican food is not spicy. Mexican food rarely contains beef, the land doesn’t support beef well. Chicken, fish, and goats are the mainstay and it varys by the region.  By the way, I like both Tex-mex and mexican food.  I can’t say anything about the food in cancun as I have not been there, but don’t base your comparisons to your local cuisine, its comparing apples and oranges. PS: We are from Texas (good mexican food) and in our opinion we did not like any of the "mexican" food there.  We ate at Senor Frogs as well and the meal was just "so-so".  All of the restaurants did not have spicy mexican food and it was pretty much bland.  I cannot recommend any place except Pat O’ Brians (Great nachos and bbq sandwich). If anyone wants further info please feel free to email me directly at:

Response:

sorry you feel that way. i’m heading back for my 8th trip end of Jan. i go mostly for the first part of your trip. and because i Love the hotel i stay at (Fiesta American Coral Beach) since it is a mega resort you have to do some searching to find good value. and yes there are some Yucatan restaurants, but mostly it is tex-mex. tim

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I’ve been to Cancun twice. I enjoyed both of my visits. I stayed at the Blue Bay Club and Marina, which is an all-inclusive hotel. Personally, I prefer all-inclusive hotels because you don’t have to carry cash when you’re at the hotel and you can eat and drink as much as you want without worrying about the bill! Also, the food at the hotel was great. They had Mexican options at every meal! The different salsas were fabulous! The hotel staff was friendly and always entertaining. The hotel also had a bus that would take us into town at night to the discos. The discos were pricey but not over the top. I agree that the flea markets were outrageous! I couldn’t take more that 5 minutes they were so rude! I don’t mind bargaining but when they start yelling at you or chasing you, that’s when I draw the line. Luckily, the hotel had theme night and one of which was Mexican. Kiosks were set up and local wares were sold in the main lobby at very reasonable prices. I really had a great time in Cancun and would probably go back. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – sorry you feel that way. i’m heading back for my 8th trip end of Jan. i go mostly for the first part of your trip. and because i Love the hotel i stay at (Fiesta American Coral Beach) since it is a mega resort you have to do some searching to find good value. and yes there are some Yucatan restaurants, but mostly it is tex-mex. tim

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don, Being a native Texan I also know the difference between Mexican food and Tex-Mex food.  I never meant to imply they were one in the same HOWEVER there is a difference in what I expected.  I expected Mexican food (I was in Mexico) with a Yucatan flair… things wrapped/cooked in banana leaves, pescado (fish) dishes, etc…  <snip I am also from Texas originally and what you are used to is NOT mexican food.  It is Tex-Mex.   PS: We are from Texas (good mexican food) and in our opinion we did not like any of the "mexican" food there.  We ate at Senor Frogs as well and the meal was just "so-so".  All of the restaurants did not have spicy mexican food and it was pretty much bland.  I cannot recommend any place except Pat O’ Brians (Great nachos and bbq sandwich).

I think you’re both missing an important point: Cancun may be in Mexico, but there is no Mexico in Cancun.  It is a Disneyfied version of what the Mexican tourist board thinks tourists want; obviously, they thought correctly.  If Cancun is the only place you’ve ever visited, you have not seen Mexico.  I’ve had to fly to/from there to get to other destinations, and had never had the "opportunity" to spend the night until this past summer (because of an early a.m. flight); I was with a teenaged cousin who had been a good sport about eating real Mexican–after years of Taco Bell–at our other destinations, so let him choose where he wanted to eat dinner in Cancun.  Yeesh, Planet Hollywood…I was truly appalled, during the cab ride, at how built up the island was. Another post-er mentioned nearby Playa del Carmen as a less-touristy destination, but unfortunately, it’s not the sleepy fishing village it was on my first visit, not so long ago.  Still, better than Cancun

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Question:

I’ve read about using a large double surgeons loop at the end of the tippet and using a loop to loop type connection using the tippet loop and the eye of the fly. This should work for larger or wet flys. Once again the tippet loop would need to be retied occaisionally. Regards, Steve

Response:

Is there any type of sivel made for changing flys? I have trouble tying the flys on because I,m at that age where I can’t see close up. I was wondering if there was some type of small swivel made for flyfishing. I,m new to the sport. Please E-mail me.

Response:

Is there any type of sivel made for changing flys? I have trouble tying the flys on because I,m at that age where I can’t see close up. I was wondering if there was some type of small swivel made for flyfishing. I,m new to the sport. Please E-mail me.

        I use some small snap-links when lure and nymph fishing. I do not have the details ready to hand but believe they are made by Mustad and come in 3 sizes.         They are tied to the tippet with a normal eye, then you snap the fly on to the shepherd crook shaped open loop,         I do not have the details to hand but will post the details tomorrow. Dave Bolt UK

Response:

Is there any type of sivel made for changing flys?

Yeah, there’s such a thing.   But you’re better of learning  to tie those knots with your eyes closed.  Better still, spring for a pair of glasses. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me.

Response:

: : Is there any type of sivel made for changing flys? I have trouble tying : the flys on because I,m at that age where I can’t see close up. I was : wondering if there was some type of small swivel made for flyfishing. : I,m new to the sport. Please E-mail me. : :       I use some small snap-links when lure and nymph fishing. I do not have : the details ready to hand but believe they are made by Mustad and come : in 3 sizes. : :       They are tied to the tippet with a normal eye, then you snap the fly on : to the shepherd crook shaped open loop, : :       I do not have the details to hand but will post the details tomorrow. : : Dave Bolt : UK   I used these eyes once or twice, while tight, they do make for a quick   knotless wet change. However – the eyelot knot needs to be checked and   retied occasionally.   Alternatively you might try knotting flies to a length of tippet at home   with or without a loop and using loops on your leader to attach them.     This will probably mean a whole new style of carrying the flys to – a   wallet I’d suggest. steve (Melbourne, Aust)

Response:

Question:

I would like to know if there is any good flyfishing in NewEngland Jan,Feb,March.

Response:

Matty Boy, I response to your query, I may only speak for Vermont.  The fishing for steelhead and browns can be good but it is unpredictable.  Lewis Creek, the Lamoille and Upper Connecticut are all options when a cold snap is followed by a warm-up.  Your timing has to be right on for it to be productive in terms of fish caught.  Otherwise it could be thought of as being productive in a character-building sense alone. James Ehlers Underhill, VT

Response:

I would like to know if there is any good flyfishing in NewEngland Jan,Feb,March.

As I’m sure others will comment, the swift river in central Mass is a very popular winter fishing site.  The fishing is directly below the Quabbin Reservoir just outside of Belchertown.  If the weather isn’t arctic (i.e. reasonably calm and 25 Degrees or more) there will likely be a midge hatch going on.  The key to matching the hatch is size 24 midge patterns with a dark green thread body.  Lots of big fish, very hard to hook and harder to land.   Stay Warm and keep the ice off of your line! Randy

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Question:

I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No. You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ?   Really ?

What would anyone do with a ’starving’ fish –  bury it in their garden to fertilize the tomatoes? Feed it to the cat? Cat might not eat it! Ralph H

Response:

I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No. You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ?   Really ? You would throw a starving dog a rubber bone ? You are a mean man Mr. Tatosian, IMO.

Tim, that was clearly a sarcastic remark in as short a form as I could provide, in response to this totally contrived troll of yours (which didn’t merit the response you would like to have received)… Yours is a tiresome routine – starting one thread after another all aimed at repeating your philosphy ad nauseum – and self-sanctified as being preferable to more civilized/less contentious topics of discussion… To what ends, I ask? Frankly I’m surprised you have any time left to actually fish – if you actually *do* fish… /dave

Response:

For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey.         Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW. Paul Marriner

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey.         Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW.

Paul, Would the same hold true in a non-anadromous population with a sparser food base ?  Please accept that the high altitude freestone creeks are not the big food suppliers as an oceanic watershed, almost barren in some cases.   I do so wish that you would not call the postings of myself and our friends ‘c**p’.   Also, you have compared this to one of the most strenuous acts of reproduction in nature.  A required one and one of major literary & philosophical meaning.  The desparate act of a fish NOT making it over the falls in some cases.  The desparate act of an old cock on its last trip upstream. The desparateness of losing 1/2 of their body weight in this struggle. Not really on the same plane as hooking and playing it for fun, is it ? Respectfully, TimW

Response:

Fish have to dash away from predators all the time; they have energy stores that help them deal with that. Trout, steelhead and salmon go through frequent and often lengthy periods when they feed little or not at all. You’d have us believe that a "sprint around the block" followed by a fast lasting a few hours will lead to death by starvation.

But… When you’re fishing a hatch, you play the fish buring one of those *brief* periods when food is abundant.  If the sprint around the block is always at diinertime, and the food is gone by the time you return, it can add up. I’m not saying, "don’t fish," I’m just saying that there are impacts involved in c&r, just like any style of fishing.   (Besides, during a heavy hatch, it can be a lot of fun to lean the rod against a tree and watch the fish work, without trying to catch them. Can improve your fishing, too.) CQ

Response:

A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?  I mean, you’re more likely to find a selective fish in some rich, artificial tailwater than you are in a high-county lake or stream, aren’t you?  

Not when a hatch is on.  High country fish can be very selective then. It makes sense for a trout to become selective when mayflies are hatching because it’s a temporary abundance.   The nymphs, baitfish, et al, will still be there after the hatch is over. CQ

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey.         Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW. Paul, Would the same hold true in a non-anadromous population with a sparser food base ?  Please accept that the high altitude freestone creeks are not the big food suppliers as an oceanic watershed, almost barren in some cases.   I do so wish that you would not call the postings of myself and our friends ‘c**p’.   Also, you have compared this to one of the most strenuous acts of reproduction in nature.  A required one and one of major literary & philosophical meaning.  The desparate act of a fish NOT making it over the falls in some cases.  The desparate act of an old cock on its last trip upstream. The desparateness of losing 1/2 of their body weight in this struggle. Not really on the same plane as hooking and playing it for fun, is it ? Respectfully, TimW

Sorry Tim I think this little bit of work from your imagination is a clunker. But then nobody bats 100. I posted my reponses previously so won’t repeat them. hope you don’t mind me asking but did you base this on any study or work that shows fish in those alpine streams you fish are so stressed by lack of food? BTW a fish with a big head and small body isn’t starving it’s just lean like a marathon runner or a cheetah. Starving fish have shrunken concave bellies. You wouldn’t want to eat one either. Ralph H

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey.         Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW. Paul, Would the same hold true in a non-anadromous population with a sparser food base ?  Please accept that the high altitude freestone creeks are not the big food suppliers as an oceanic watershed, almost barren in some cases.   I do so wish that you would not call the postings of myself and our friends ‘c**p’.   Also, you have compared this to one of the most strenuous acts of reproduction in nature.  A required one and one of major literary & philosophical meaning.  The desparate act of a fish NOT making it over the falls in some cases.  The desparate act of an old cock on its last trip upstream. The desparateness of losing 1/2 of their body weight in this struggle. Not really on the same plane as hooking and playing it for fun, is it ? Respectfully, TimW

Sorry time but IMO this work from your imagination is a clunker. I’ve posted my responses elsewhere and won’t repeat them. However let me ask did you base this post on any kind of study on the alpine streams in your area that indicated the fish were so stressed by lack of food? BTW a fish with a big head and small body isn’t starving; it’s just lean like a marathon runner or a cheetah. Starving fish have concave shrunken bellies. You wouldn’t want to eat one either. Ralph H

Response:

: That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of : being a fish.   : A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?   I have to agree here; the arguments being made of the average fish fight being so life-threatening is kindof ridiculous. This "1/2 energy/wieght/whatever lost" being mispresented. As (I think) another poster said, think of it as a sprint. Even if you are out of shape, a sprint won’t kill you — in fact, 10 minutes later you won’t even feel the effects. Same for the trout. You use up your short-term energy — sugar in the cells — but this doesn’t effect your fat reserves or anything to any large degree. Now, a prolonged fight, and environmental stresses (such as warm water) are worse, but I don’t think from an energy loss standpoint its much worse — the problems come from the fish needing more time to recuperate and can’t orient itself during this time (unlike us, who would just lay down on the ground and *breathe*; a fish can’t do that). We’ve all had hard releases — I held a fish for 20 minutes one time (actually stopped him from swimming away a couple of times), and eventually he looked just fine, swam away and took a position behind a rock — was still there later in the day. I don’t think the energy loss hurt him one bit. I’ll second that a big-head/little-bodied fish mean there’s too many fish for the food base, and you should keep it anyways. JonCook.

Response:

A guy who works in a fly shop just told me this evening about a guy who said he played a steelhead for 3 and a half hours.  I asked him how big it was and he told me the guy claimed 8 pounds.  Slightly less than a

Good Grief!  What kind of rod could he have been using.  I have landed steelhead this size on a 4 wt. rod in less than 20 minutes.  Three and a half hours is torture! -Burton

Response:

While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot… I have taken the liberty of changing the thread title for you, if you want a serious discussion of the mine possibility and its detriment. This is a different thread… TimW

 Nah…I just wanted to remind you that there are bigger fish to fry.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of : being a fish. : A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it? I have to agree here; the arguments being made of the average fish fight being so life-threatening is kindof ridiculous. This "1/2 energy/wieght/whatever lost" being mispresented. As (I think) another poster said, think of it as a sprint. Even if you are out of shape, a sprint won’t kill you — in fact, 10 minutes later you won’t even feel the effects. Same for the trout. You use up your short-term energy — sugar in the cells — but this doesn’t effect your fat reserves or anything to any large degree. Now, a prolonged fight, and environmental stresses (such as warm water) are worse, but I don’t think from an energy loss standpoint its much worse — the problems come from the fish needing more time to recuperate and can’t orient itself during this time (unlike us, who would just lay down on the ground and *breathe*; a fish can’t do that). We’ve all had hard releases — I held a fish for 20 minutes one time (actually stopped him from swimming away a couple of times), and eventually he looked just fine, swam away and took a position behind a rock — was still there later in the day. I don’t think the energy loss hurt him one bit. I’ll second that a big-head/little-bodied fish mean there’s too many fish for the food base, and you should keep it anyways.

Ok then.  What I am hearing… Our [flyfishermen's] definition of the ethics of catch and release… "We may cause indiscriminate harm to a wild animal, so long as the animal does not normally  die as a result, in our search for happiness.  Our metric will only include mortality and  will not include incidental suffering or non-fatal injury" Or, something like that… I laugh at our free usage of the term ‘respect’ for a wild animal.  It is really, really laughable (if it weren’t so sad).   Wham !!! Set the Hook !!!! Wham, Lay the rod into it !! she’s runnin’ for the rapids…then this thoughtful ‘respectful’ release…sometimes with an accompanying little kiss on the lips.  Respect ?  I don’t think so.  Cause for self-congratulation, perhaps. TimW

Response:

While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot…

Finally the real meat of the issues. Isn’t it time we humans get a little more ,NO! a lot more involve with the issues of rectifying and push for the preservation of our current watersheds. When their all gone who will be there to make new ones? The issues may vary from state to state, but they are the sum of all the parts. Trout are a good indicator for water quality and the quality of life to which we an ultimately attached. Seems to me that a new thread needs to be started here. Our fingers are dancing on the very tools that could start a very positive movement. What do you say guys? How about it, Tim, George, and Al? On another sad note, my ISP really sucks and I only receive less than half of the news posting and feel like a mushroom on lost thread portions. If anybody felt like CC me on your postings I would sure appreciate it. — Doug Knight                           metalfab<atefaxinc.com Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $50.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No. You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ? Really ? You would throw a starving dog a rubber bone ? You are a mean man Mr. Tatosian, IMO. Tim, that was clearly a sarcastic remark in as short a form as I could provide, in response to this totally contrived troll of yours (which didn’t merit the response you would like to have received)… Yours is a tiresome routine – starting one thread after another all aimed at repeating your philosphy ad nauseum – and self-sanctified as being preferable to more civilized/less contentious topics of discussion… To what ends, I ask?

I’ll be happy when the popularity of the sport subsides by say, 80%.  I’ll be patting myself on the back all the way down to the deep run behind Pat’s rock, which will be devoid of people and clogged with fish. TimW

Response:

While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot… I have taken the liberty of changing the thread title for you, if you want a serious discussion of the mine possibility and its detriment. This is a different thread… TimW

OK Tim, You were reading my mind. What are we playing with here, threads, fish, or environmental action? Isn’t it time we all get involved. Where do I sign up? It’s time to give something back. Please make note to CC, my ISP really sucks. — Doug Knight                           metalfab<atefaxinc.com Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $50.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.

Response:

Tim pardon me but this is vapour ware to the nth degree. You’re expounding proifically on a hypothetical situation about which nothing is known. Fish have to dash away from predators all the time; they have energy stores that help them deal with that. Trout, steelhead and salmon go through frequent and often lengthy periods when they feed little or not at all. You’d have us believe that a "sprint around the block" followed by a fast lasting a few hours will lead to death by starvation. If you’re going to fabricate something please at least make it credible and believable. from Your Biggest fan Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The pinnacle of our sport is catching a wild trout feeding selectively on dries. That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of being a fish.  It is important that the energy expended to consume an insect must not exceed the energy gained by this insects consumption. It is tough row to hoe for a fish eating this minutae.  What percentage of fish even make it to this stage ? Along comes, O.M.I. Gudd the world famous dry fly man with his 2 wt and and exact imitation.  Bingo.  Fish On.  The fight lasts 10 minutes, and the fish is going…"damned, now I gotta eat an additional 1000 midges just to get back to my fighting weight !"…well we don’t really know WHAT Mr. Brown thinks, but it would be true that he is now in an energy deficit situation…this could kill him…have you ever caught a starving fish ? Big head, tiny emaciated snake like body ? Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?  Considering that it was possibly very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out. Maybe in the unnatural tailwaters where food is abundant this is less of a problem then a freestone creek at 12,000 ft., but I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? TimW

Response:

The pinnacle of our sport is catching a wild trout feeding selectively on dries. That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of being a fish.  

A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?  I mean, you’re more likely to find a selective fish in some rich, artificial tailwater than you are in a high-county lake or stream, aren’t you?   Along comes, O.M.I. Gudd the world famous dry fly man with his 2 wt and and exact imitation.  Bingo.  Fish On.  The fight lasts 10 minutes, and the fish is going…"damned, now I gotta eat an additional 1000 midges just to get back to my fighting weight !"…well we don’t really know WHAT Mr. Brown thinks, but it would be true that he is now in an energy deficit situation…this could kill him…have you ever caught a starving fish ? Big head, tiny emaciated snake like body ?

(I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.) Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?  Considering that it was possibly very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out. Maybe in the unnatural tailwaters where food is abundant this is less of a problem then a freestone creek at 12,000 ft., but I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ?

It seems like the folks fishing the rich tailwaters are more likely to be using too light of a rod for the fish that live there, so the benefit of plentiful food could be offset by the fish being played way longer than it should have been.  It may die anyway. The starving fish in the sterile alpine creek can’t be underpowered, but there is hardly any food for it to eat once it’s released. What?   If it was an overcrowded stream, you’re right.  If there are so many fish in the creek that the one you just caught is starving, kill and eat it.   That population sounds like it needs to be thinned, in my no-expert opinion.  A lot of the higher streams I’ve fished have what seem to be normal numbers of fish – they are healthy, active, and not swarming all over each other.  I’d imagine that at least some of them have native fish, and they *are* all wild fish.  There seems to be plenty of food. The only fish I’ll take out of a small, highish creek around here are brook trout or the rare brown; no cutts or rainbows.  I don’t feel bad about that, because these fish aren’t monsters and they are generally not starving.  The fight is quick and one-sided, and they are undoubtedly more stunned than exhausted when it’s over.  Of any trout, these are the ones I like to lay eyes on the most.  C&K seems like a bad idea to have catch on when it comes to these streams.   If you fish a heavier rod while practicing C&R, you release a healthier fish but probably shouldn’t call it ’sport.’  If you fish a really light, sporting rod; play the trout for ten minutes; kill, keep, and eat it, you have a fish that tastes bad. I don’t call what I do with those little cutts and redsides ’sport,’ and the brook trout I keep are delicious. The part of C&R that bugs me is hearing of 15# steelhead caught on four-weight rigs, people fishing for huge trout with two-weights, etc.   Small, alpine trout are probably bothered by C&R the least, and they are the ones that need it the most.  In my opinion. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TimW

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I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ?

No.

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The hypothesis goes (it isn’t even ‘theory’) that the fish becomes selective to cope with abundance. It makes it more efficient to focus om midges in Tim’s example so it doesn’t get distracted by say a sculpin on the bottom. I don’t get it.  Why would it be better for a trout to concentrate on midges and ignore a juicy sculpin, as long as it was big enough to eat one?

because the midges are abundant thr fish gains more calories than it expends by feeding exclusively on midges and ignoring the sculpin. It’s a hypothesis used to explain selectivity Also, why would the fish have to concentrate if there was a lot of food in the water?  Isn’t that where the phrase ‘easy pickins’ comes from?  You don’t mean that trout are easily confused, do you?!?

It’s not my idea. No I don’t mean they are confused. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.) what exactly is it’s stored energy? The energy you store in your body is fat. Do you mean to say a trout burns up half it’s stored fat  swimming at full throttle for 15 seconds? Sounds proposterous. It is proposterous if you watch salmon moving up stream or jumping a falls Consider many stocks migrate hundreds of miles without feeding for months I think this whole line of reasoning falls on it’s keester. But a tip of the hat to Tim for trying. You’re right, that didn’t make any sense.  It’s the stored glycogen in the muscle that they use up so fast.  The book I just checked that in claims that the white muscle used for burst speed may take up to 18 hours to get rid of the lactic acid that results from the gas-guzzling, while the muscles used for regular, sustained swimming do it in an hour or less.   So you probably can’t compare swimming vs. fighting fish and then say that there isn’t any truth to what Tim Walker was saying. Also, salmon are making a one-way trip.  They don’t have to budget their energy, really.  I wouln’t be supprised at all to hear that salmon use more energy trying to get over a single tough falls than a typical trout does in a month of dodging predators, but the salmon probably dies sooner for doing it.

Salmon don’t always make a one way trip. Atlantics and steelhead usually return to the sea. Also salmon don’t stare to death they are genetically programed to die after spawning. Some stocks that are as sea fat as other go only a few yrds above tide water. Pacific salmon die of multiple organ failure that can’t simply be explain by starvation. Also genetically they can make the switch from salt to fresh water only once. The die off could be an adaption to transfer rich ocean nutrients to their native streams and enhance their offsprings chances for survival. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if it were nearly starving and being caught put it at death’s door the whole stock in the stream simply wouldn’t last long. The first good drought or flood or an unusually hard winter would wipe them out. That’s true.  It’s strange that some of the more obviously-overcrowded lakes that I’ve seen are also shallow.  If any lake was going to winter-kill, it seems like they’d be the ones. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or. Ralph H

Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No.

You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ?  Really ? You would throw a starving dog a rubber bone ? You are a mean man Mr. Tatosian, IMO. TimW

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of : being a fish. : A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it? I have to agree here; the arguments being made of the average fish fight being so life-threatening is kindof ridiculous. This "1/2 energy/wieght/whatever lost" being mispresented. As (I think) another poster said, think of it as a sprint. Even if you are out of shape, a sprint won’t kill you — in fact, 10 minutes later you won’t even feel the effects. Same for the trout. You use up your short-term energy — sugar in the cells — but this doesn’t effect your fat reserves or anything to any large degree. Now, a prolonged fight, and environmental stresses (such as warm water) are worse, but I don’t think from an energy loss standpoint its much worse — the problems come from the fish needing more time to recuperate and can’t orient itself during this time (unlike us, who would just lay down on the ground and *breathe*; a fish can’t do that). We’ve all had hard releases — I held a fish for 20 minutes one time (actually stopped him from swimming away a couple of times), and eventually he looked just fine, swam away and took a position behind a rock — was still there later in the day. I don’t think the energy loss hurt him one bit. I’ll second that a big-head/little-bodied fish mean there’s too many fish for the food base, and you should keep it anyways. JonCook.

While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot…

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The hypothesis goes (it isn’t even ‘theory’) that the fish becomes selective to cope with abundance. It makes it more efficient to focus om midges in Tim’s example so it doesn’t get distracted by say a sculpin on the bottom.

I don’t get it.  Why would it be better for a trout to concentrate on midges and ignore a juicy sculpin, as long as it was big enough to eat one?  Also, why would the fish have to concentrate if there was a lot of food in the water?  Isn’t that where the phrase ‘easy pickins’ comes from?  You don’t mean that trout are easily confused, do you?!? (I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.) what exactly is it’s stored energy? The energy you store in your body is fat. Do you mean to say a trout burns up half it’s stored fat  swimming at full throttle for 15 seconds? Sounds proposterous. It is proposterous if you watch salmon moving up stream or jumping a falls Consider many stocks migrate hundreds of miles without feeding for months I think this whole line of reasoning falls on it’s keester. But a tip of the hat to Tim for trying.

You’re right, that didn’t make any sense.  It’s the stored glycogen in the muscle that they use up so fast.  The book I just checked that in claims that the white muscle used for burst speed may take up to 18 hours to get rid of the lactic acid that results from the gas-guzzling, while the muscles used for regular, sustained swimming do it in an hour or less.   So you probably can’t compare swimming vs. fighting fish and then say that there isn’t any truth to what Tim Walker was saying. Also, salmon are making a one-way trip.  They don’t have to budget their energy, really.  I wouln’t be supprised at all to hear that salmon use more energy trying to get over a single tough falls than a typical trout does in a month of dodging predators, but the salmon probably dies sooner for doing it. if it were nearly starving and being caught put it at death’s door the whole stock in the stream simply wouldn’t last long. The first good drought or flood or an unusually hard winter would wipe them out.

That’s true.  It’s strange that some of the more obviously-overcrowded lakes that I’ve seen are also shallow.  If any lake was going to winter-kill, it seems like they’d be the ones. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ralph H

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Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?  

A guy who works in a fly shop just told me this evening about a guy who said he played a steelhead for 3 and a half hours.  I asked him how big it was and he told me the guy claimed 8 pounds.  Slightly less than a half hour a pound… Phil

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A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?  

The hypothesis goes (it isn’t even ‘theory’) that the fish becomes selective to cope with abundance. It makes it more efficient to focus om midges in Tim’s example so it doesn’t get distracted by say a sculpin on the bottom. You’re right a starving fish is unlikley to be selective. (I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.)

what exactly is it’s stored energy? The energy you store in your body is fat. Do you mean to say a trout burns up half it’s stored fat  swimming at full throttle for 15 seconds? Sounds proposterous. It is proposterous if you watch salmon moving up stream or jumping a falls Consider many stocks migrate hundreds of miles without feeding for months I think this whole line of reasoning falls on it’s keester. But a tip of the hat to Tim for trying. very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out.

if it were nearly starving and being caught put it at death’s door the whole stock in the stream simply wouldn’t last long. The first good drought or flood or an unusually hard winter would wipe them out. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -It seems like the folks fishing the rich tailwaters are more likely to be using too light of a rod for the fish that live there, so the benefit of plentiful food could be offset by the fish being played way longer than it should have been.  It may die anyway. The starving fish in the sterile alpine creek can’t be underpowered, but there is hardly any food for it to eat once it’s released. What?   [snip] The part of C&R that bugs me is hearing of 15# steelhead caught on four-weight rigs, people fishing for huge trout with two-weights, etc.

This bugs me too and I think many have pushed the light tackle envelope too far, way too far. Small, alpine trout are probably bothered by C&R the least, and they are the ones that need it the most.  In my opinion. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or.

Ralph H

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The pinnacle of our sport is catching a wild trout feeding selectively on dries. That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of being a fish.  It is important that the energy expended to consume an insect must not exceed the energy gained by this insects consumption. It is tough row to hoe for a fish eating this minutae.  What percentage of fish even make it to this stage ? Along comes, O.M.I. Gudd the world famous dry fly man with his 2 wt and and exact imitation.  Bingo.  Fish On.  The fight lasts 10 minutes, and the fish is going…"damned, now I gotta eat an additional 1000 midges just to get back to my fighting weight !"…well we don’t really know WHAT Mr. Brown thinks, but it would be true that he is now in an energy deficit situation…this could kill him…have you ever caught a starving fish ? Big head, tiny emaciated snake like body ? Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?  Considering that it was possibly very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out. Maybe in the unnatural tailwaters where food is abundant this is less of a problem then a freestone creek at 12,000 ft., but I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? TimW

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Question:

I will be in Minneapolis in the third week of September, and would like to stay an extra day to fly fish.  What is available within a reasonable distance of Minneapolis, and can someone recommend a guide?  Thank you.

I hear Christmas Lake (South of Lake Minnetonka a bit) is the only lake in the metro area that’s good enough for trout. I don’t know what kind of access there is, though. Maybe someone can verify this? Pete

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I will be in Minneapolis in the third week of September, and would like to stay an extra day to fly fish.  What is available within a reasonable distance of Minneapolis, and can someone recommend a guide?  Thank you.

Whitewater River and Root River are both within  2 hours of Minneapolis.  They are in the Rochester, MN area. Here are the #’s for a couple of Minneapolis area flyshops: Bob Mitchell’s Fly Shop 612.770.5854 The Fly Angler 612.572.0717 I’m sure they will direct you towards Wisconsin.   _-=J=-_

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I lived in Minneapolis for about 5 years and belonged to a fly-Tying/Fishing group.  You can find a good plenty of good streams very close to Mpls.  If you want to fish trout, head to the Kinnickinnic near River Falls Wisconsin (25 miles from Mpls) and drive to the park/dam in town, Lot’s o’ browns. Also the Root in southern MN (1 hour).  If you want BIG bass, there are alot of lakes in and around the city, Centerville Lake, 10 miles north on 35w is a good late summer producer.  All in All, call some fly shops when you get there, they will be glad to help. Bob Crossley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will be in Minneapolis in the third week of September, and would like to stay an extra day to fly fish.  What is available within a reasonable distance of Minneapolis, and can someone recommend a guide?  Thank you.

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I will be in Minneapolis in the third week of September, and would like to stay an extra day to fly fish.  What is available within a reasonable distance of Minneapolis, and can someone recommend a guide?  Thank you.

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Question:

Recent posts on this and other locations have brought out some of the worst of those in our sport who have senselessly criticised equipment of particular brands and the anglers who use whatever happens to be on the "hit list." Two recent posts from another location provide a nice response, and I repeat them here: #1 Never feel that you have to apologize to anyone for the equipment you use. Most of the howlers are cheapskates who wouldn’t know a good rod if someone beat them over the head with it anyway, and they certainly don’t recognize that a good expensive rod is an investment in a lifetime (with reasonable care) of pleasure on the stream." #2 "If some people don’t like Orvis–so what? Think for yourself and do your own thing.  Owning Orvis products has about as much to do with being a yuppie as owning Scott or Winston.  Besides, who the hell really cares if someone *does* label you or me or Joe Blow a yuppie. Small-minded people need to fixate on simple-minded, non-issues–just look at our gov’mint!" Lyman Hughes                                               Dallas, TX                                               Ennis, MT

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Recent posts on this and other locations have brought out some of the worst of those in our sport who have senselessly criticised equipment of particular brands and the anglers who use whatever happens to be on the "hit list." Two recent posts from another location provide a nice response, and I repeat them here: #1 Never feel that you have to apologize to anyone for the equipment you use. Most of the howlers are cheapskates who wouldn’t know

a good rod if someone beat them over the head with it anyway, and they certainly don’t recognize that a good expensive rod is an investment in a lifetime (with reasonable care) of pleasure on the stream." #2 "If some people don’t like Orvis–so what? Think for yourself and do your own thing.  Owning Orvis products has about as much to do with being a yuppie as owning Scott or Winston.  Besides, who the hell really cares if someone*does* label you or me or Joe Blow a yuppie. Small-minded people

need to fixate on simple-minded, non-issues–just look at our gov’mint!" Bravo! JL 8-Wt Editor

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To me, it does not matter whether you use an Orvis rod or a Diawa, all that really matters is whether you can catch "and release" fish!  Too many people get too esoteric about having the best equipment but why do you have to spend your all your money on equipment because Lefty Kreh has endorsed it?  I have some expensive equipment and I have cheap equipment and to tell you the truth, sometimes I can’t tell the difference. Remember, "A bad day of fishing is still better than a good day at work!" Tight Lines! Mark

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Re: whether you own an Orvis, etc…I’d be willing to bet a day’s pay that those "toy snobs" can’t cast their expensive trinkets worth a damned. And I bet they don’t fish more than 1 or 2 times a year, then only in perfectly calm, clear days.       In my past days as a professional photographer, I would listen to the same B.S. concerning cameras. You know, it’s not What you use, but HOW you use it that counts!    A cheap rod and cheap line fished properly will catch just as  many fish as the expensive stuff. It is technique and presentation that counts. The fish don’t give a damned if they are caught on a Winston or a Sears "special!"

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Most people use the best equipment they can afford, since it is almost always more enjoyable to use than something cheaper.  Why don’t most serious flyfishers by cheap rods and/or lines?  There is a difference, and you know it, so why be so negative? BTW, what kind of rod and line do you use, and what kind of camera did you use professionally? — Jim Benenson                 Los Alamos, New Mexico, USA "The commonplace is only the self-constructed wall that separates us from the marvelous"  Tom Brown, Jr.

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Begin Message—– snipped The fish don’t give a damned if they are caught on a Winston or a Sears "special!" snipped End Message ——- As I look through all of my spring fishing catalogs (Bean, Dan Bailey, Cabelas, Bass Pro, etc.)  I have to ask myself why a bait casting rod made out of IM6 graphite or any other new generation graphites costs 50% less than a fly rod made out of the same material.  I do not believe that the manufacturting processes are that disimilar. Some people might argue something about mandrels and tapers (I always thought that a mandrel was a baboon like primate).  But I really think that the prices are  high for fly rods simply because the market can bear it. BTW, Bass Pro has a good deal on some IM6 rods with a SA 2L reel for $179.00. I priced the reel elsewhere at $125.00. So its like getting an IM6 rod for $54.00.  I bought one last year when the combo sold for $169.00 and the rod is pretty nice casting (minor cosmetic imperfections in the varnishing and wrapping) My $0.02 Daern C. Valentine

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Begin Message—– snipped The fish don’t give a damned if they are caught on a Winston or a Sears "special!" snipped End Message ——- As I look through all of my spring fishing catalogs (Bean, Dan Bailey, Cabelas, Bass Pro, etc.)  I have to ask myself why a bait casting rod made out of IM6 graphite or any other new generation graphites costs 50% less than a fly rod made out of the same material.  I do not believe that the manufacturting processes are that disimilar. Some people might argue something about mandrels and tapers (I always thought that a mandrel was a baboon like primate).  But I really think that the prices are  high for fly rods simply because the market can bear it.

An experienced and honest angler will have to admit that a high-end rod, e.g., Scott, Sage, Winston, etc., just casts and "feels" better than an economy rod, e.g., Cabela’s, St. Croix, etc.  The latter rods can be great bargains, and there is no doubt that an accomplished fisher with a Cortland in hand will do better than a novice casting a T&T.  Clearly, technique is MUCH more important than equipment.  However, once you’ve reached a certain level of casting skill, you appreciate a well-made rod and it makes for a better fishing experience.  In addition, high-end rods just look nicer: There is more attention to design and they are finished better (as you point out, the rod you bought had "minor cosmetic imperfections").  For some people, like myself, this matters; for others, it may be totally irrelevant. There is no doubt that the markup on high-end rods is high.  But you have to consider that the production of many of these rods is extremely labor intensive.  Consider Scott, for example.  Scott matches tip sections to butt sections by hand, testing each butt with a variety of tips until the appropriate and desired  taper and flex pattern is achieved.  This is done for each rod individually. Many high-end rod companies (e.g., Sage) also put a lot of money into R&D trying to figure out what lengths, tapers, diameters, scrims, etc., are appropriate for various types of graphite and various line weights. All that said, it is certainly true that these rod companies know their market and are not shy about pricing their products. Comparing fly rods to spinning rods is unfair.  Don’t think that any two blanks made from IM6 (which, BTW, is second generation graphite and is about 5-6 years old now) are of equivalent quality and should be priced the same.  The quality of a spinning rod is much less important to casting than is the quality of a fly rod, and rod makers know this.  You can get away with many more imperfections in the blank on a spinning rod.  In addition, they are shorter.  Cost goes up nonlinearly with length because it is just a lot harder to make a straight 9 ft. blank that tapers from say, 1 cm to 2 mm, than to make an almost straight 7 ft. blank that tapers from 2 cm (or more on some of Cabela’s rods, e.g.) to 2 mm.  Put it this way:  You could do pretty well spin casting with your reel tied to a broom handle, but unless you are Lefty Kreh, you’d have a hell of a time getting more than a few feet of line out fly casting with such a rig. Finally, I’ll gladly take up "FlyFish887" on his casting bet for a day’s pay:  Just name the time and the place . . . TPM

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writes: Re: whether you own an Orvis, etc…I’d be willing to bet a day’s pay that those "toy snobs" can’t cast their expensive trinkets worth a damned. And I bet they don’t fish more than 1 or 2 times a year, then only in perfectly calm, clear days.  In my past days as a professional photographer, I would listen to the same B.S. concerning cameras. You know, it’s not What you use, but HOW you use it that counts!    A cheap rod and cheap line fished properly will catch just as  many fish as the expensive stuff. It is technique and presentation that counts. The fish don’t give a damned if they are caught on a Winston or a Sears "special!"

I’ll take that bet. What do you consider "worth a damned"?  Distance?   Accuracy? I have a 9ft 7wt I can cast a standard flyline so far the backing is hanging out of the tiptop. Or how about picking up a bass bug at about 45 feet and with one false cast hit within 12 inches of a target at 65 feet. In my present days as a professional photo lab technician I also know that any _professional_ photographer is going to use top of the line equipment because it is dependable, rugged and has quality optics. People use Canons, Nikons, Hasselbads, not Ricoh, Pentax and Mamiya-Sekor.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Comparing fly rods to spinning rods is unfair.  Don’t think that any two blanks made from IM6 (which, BTW, is second generation graphite and is about 5-6 years old now) are of equivalent quality and should be priced the same.  The quality of a spinning rod is much less important to casting than is the quality of a fly rod, and rod makers know this.  You can get away with many more imperfections in the blank on a spinning rod.   This is all very nice but it’s not reflected in reality.  Take a close look   at blank vs finished rod prices in the Loomis catalogs, for instance, and   what comes through is that the majority of the differences in price between   spinning/casting and fly rods is in the rods and not the blanks themselves.     For example, look at several 9′ blanks and what happens to the final price   (these are GLoomis two-piece IMX rods):    Length      "Rating"    Blank price   Finished rod price      9′      6-10 lb line     $207            $330      9′      8-12 lb line     $214            $335      9′        6 weight       $171            $375      9′        7 weight       $182            $380   I think that the original poster was correct: there is a substantial premium   inherent in fly rod prices and it is not clear that there is a materials or   labor cost that warrants it.

These are interesting and useful data, but they cut both ways.  Your argument assumes that the blank prices are accurate reflections of production costs but that the finished rod prices are not.  If we assume that all costs reflect production costs plus a constant percentage markup (constant across rod types), the prices above indicate that spinning rods cost more to make (for a given length) but that fly rods cost more to finish.  If you are willing to question the increment from blank to finished rod for fly rods, why not also question the prices on blanks themselves.  Perhaps the markup is higher for spinning blanks than for fly rod blanks.  The real problem is that no one outside the company really knows what the production costs are and how items are priced for a given market. I’ll stick with my previous argument that the quality of the blank is much less important to spin fishing than to fly fishing, and hence, that comparing prices between spinning rods and fly rods is unfair.  However, I also strongly suspect that we fly fishers are not getting any bargains on premium rods. TPM

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