Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This one made a little more sense . You know though i still gotta tell you … there aint no fishies that got the brains of a tomato really. For you to state that "marine mammals " have "intellectual capacities" at least equal to ours while NOT the most confused thing i have read today … it IS the ‘Goofiest’ thing i have read this week .So once again you win .. Do you really, really want me to think that you cannot tell the difference in intelligence between you and flipper… hmmmm ..wait a second ! ..by golly … ! ….umm never mind. Flipper will be eating raw seaweed and peeing in the ocean until God ends existence … Guys like me [should the world continue] will be toasting flipper on a bun with a laser beam on planet x-11 after i teleport there for the weekend.  Please tell me you were kidding bob… By the way i had the BEST smoked salmon today ..so in some ways this topic is interesting to me .

Flipper as you call them has a brain that is in fact more sophisticated than the human brain. I speak with certainty here as my post doc work is in neuropsych. My home in Ireland is close to the Shannon estuary where we have the beautiful sight of them frolicking.Their beauty and intelligence is why they are protected. I miss thm when I am living in the US Blessings; Caillean `aSiobhan, Lady Carrigaholt Cheers to Dolphinwatch Carrigaholt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We rule the planet cause we are "superior" to all animals, plants insects and on and on… Lemme guess, you pulled that from "Dummies Guide to The Bible", Genesis 1:26? If you can’t figure out … haven’t realized yet ….that men are ’superior’ to a watermelon or a butterfly…then you have the brain of a cock – a – roacha . We rule the planet because we are a trillion times mo better .. mo smarter …. than a fruit fly. I’m not even talking bible here genius… If man rules the planet, he’d better look after it, but he isn’t..he’s raping it, men are good at rape. Bahb Oh another thinking atheist heheeeeee …no wonder !!!! the point here ..is that to equal the huge climatic changes that have occurred in the past you would have to have men build smoke belching factories on every square inch of the planet and let em run for 100 years and you *still* woulnt put anywhere near the particulate that past natural disasters have put into the atmosphere from 1 super volcano. bob [edumacating rainbow junior athesists and assorted wacky goofy guys for over a month now ] Robert;     We have superior intellect to some, not all, of Creation. Some marine mammals have intellectul capacities at least equal to ours. We have the power to create, to care of, or to destroy. Which do yyou suppose that the Creator of so very much beauty wishes us to embrace as our duty. It would seem to me to be simple logic. Blessings always, Robert; Caillean `aSiobhan, Lady Carrigaholt — Phylter Denizen of Darkness #44 AFJC Antipodean Attach

Question:

Any recommendations for trout streams/fly shops near Steep Falls, ME in Late June? Thanks, Sam

Response:

Any recommendations for trout streams/fly shops near Steep Falls, ME in Late June? Thanks, Sam

Saco river would be good. Not sure about pond fishing but you might want to check a map and the regs and look for someplace. If the hex hatch starts early on one of those ponds, you cannot beat the action. Flyfish

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Question:

 I think that it’s also true that you should use the smallest  indicator you can get away with.  The larger it is the more  information it will mask.

I agree. There’s stuff called ’strike putty’ you can get from Orvis. You can put a very little of it on, say, a knot in the leader;  a good guide if you’ve lost sight of what’s going on. Lazarus — Lazarus Cooke

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What about a short length of the bricklayer’s twine you use for running line, or is that too large an inside diameter? — Charlie…

I can

Question:

anyone have any experience with swift canoes. am looking at the temegami wondering how initial stability is needed for two large people to fish off of

Response:

I’m quite familiar with Swift Canoes (Mattawa, Kip, Winisk, all the solos, Mad, and Dumo).  The Temagami is a new boat (2000), that is similair to a Winisk in most dimensions, however is wider, deeper and has less bow rocker and more stern rocker.  That means that it will carry a bit more, be a bit slower and will have less stern drag.  The Winisk is a very nice boat.  It may not be my favorite tripping boat, but it is quick when properly trimmed and it has lots of flare for dryness, and soft chines to eliminate catching on waves.  Generally speaking the Winisk is a very nice canoe. As for balance the Winisk is easy to balance, however it exhibits the same old Swift wiggle you get in most of the Winters designed boats. It often puts first time paddler off.  What I’m speaking about is the wiggle in the initial stability that the boat develops with each stroke while paddling.  It’s hard to describe, but it is more of a feeling than anything else.  Once you paddle a mile or so you won’t feel it, but it is noticeable after paddling other boats that don’t wiggle.  The Winisk and all Swifts have impeccable secondary stability, a practiced paddler can put the one rail well below the water surface and not loose stability in a swift boat.  This is useful when executing sharp apex turns.  Swifts track well and compare well against similair canoes in all matters of performance. I recommend you take one for a paddle, try a Winisk too.  For that matter try a Bell Northwind, or a MRC Horizon, or several 17-18′ We-No- Nahs too (Sundower, Jensen, Minnesota II, Odyssey, and Champlain. Western Canoeing als makes a few comparable boats. PK Before you buy.

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I’ll second everything that PK said.  I own the Winter-designed, 18-foot Swift Cirrus, 54 pounds in an expedition kevlar layup. The initial stability is poor.  The boat freely rocks through about 5 degrees with each stroke and scares beginners but it can be heeled until the gunwales are wet and just gets tighter and tighter as the angle increases.  I fly fish standing up in it. The quality of construction is superb with beautiful contrasting wood work for thwarts, seats and yoke.  Outfitting is thoughtful, with a sliding bow seat, molded-in flotation chambers with valves that can open to allow compensation for temperature expansion of the air inside and a nicely contoured carrying yoke. Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Michael A. Barbalic writes: anyone have any experience with swift canoes. am

looking at the temegami wondering how initial stability is needed for two large people to fish off of

There are several Swift Canoe models listed among the reader’s gear reiviews at http://www.paddling.net/ , but not the model you mention in your post. You may find them useful anyway. Good luck! " If clean air and water and a healthy environment have not harmed you, please reciprocate."

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Good point on the yoke, Tommy,  But I gotta tell you opt for the optional Shadow Yoke.  It’s worth it’s weight in Ash.  Your shoulders will thank you.  You will be thankful for years that you didn’t cheese on that one!! PK Before you buy.

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PK, I think fitting a yoke is like fitting shoes.  When I bought my Cirrus at Collinsville Canoe and Kayak in Connecticut, they had three different contoured and one padded yoke models (not all Swift) in the store.  I carried a boat with each of them and then selected the Swift "Teal".  I liked it so well that I bought two more "Teals" to retrofit into other canoes. Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

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Michael: I’m not familiar with the Temagami but I have owned 2 Swift Kipawa’s.  My current boat is one of the two. I think that they are fantastic boats.  Very well designed.  Great secondary stablility – as pointed out by other posters. Swift’s construction is impeccable IMHO and so is their customer service. I would suggest going out to one of their outdoor events if you can and paddling their boats.  Alternatively if you can make it to the Dwight store, Oxtounge lake is right in their backyard. One thing I would suggest is that if they don’t have the exact boat in stock that you are looking for (Trim, colour ect.), wait for it.  I’m sure that they will gladly set you up with a loaner if it takes a few weeks to build your dream boat. BTW:  I highly recommend their cherry trim.  It’s a wonderful wood.. quite pleasing to the eye . Good luck, -Aamer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – anyone have any experience with swift canoes. am looking at the temegami wondering how initial stability is needed for two large people to fish off of

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Yep the Cherry is nice, but I can tell you for a fact that if you plan to run whitewater in your boat, buy the ash.  It’s much stronger for the same weight. I had a friend that outfit his Dumo with cherry thwarts and yoke.  He went through the yoke, and two thwarts of cherry with only a good buise.  Sure it was lucky for him that he didn’t break his legs, buttttttttt…..  Thwarts shouldn’t break that easily PK Before you buy.

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Question:

Just one other point, a very wise man once said to me when I asked him if something was a good idea " If you have to think very long and very hard about it, and are still not sure, don’t do it".

Excellent point. Right now I’m leaning to getting the horses. It all depends on how my stock options pan out. Money can turn what otherwise would be a terrible idea into an excellent idea.

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<equine opine snipped PS-Stay away from llamas, they are for grass maggot (sheep) herders and a major pain (attitudes).

Spoken like a true Montanan. Welcome, Warren. — Ken Fortenberry

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Vaccinations twice a year are a good idea, and if you have the money (it sounds like you do), vet checks are a good idea. Have the vets come out and worm/vaccinate twice a year, and they’ll spot something early that you might not, especially as a beginner.

And DON’T forget to get a vet check BEFORE you buy a horse.  It can save you a ton of money in the long run.   Vaccinations are a good idea, but not necessary unless the horses are going to come into contact with tons of other horses.  I guess the main reason we don’t is that we have too many and it is easier to treat on an as needed basis. However, for two, better to be safe than sorry is a good philosophy.  It really isn’t that expensive to do it yourself. The key is keeping the vet away unless necessary.  So the more you learn and are able to do, the less reliance you will have on a vet to come out and give shots/worm. Worming is easy, just a tube that shoots out measured amounts of a paste based upon the body weight (you actually set the tube with the weight and it premeasures sort of).  Just have to make sure to get it way back in the mouth so they don’t spit it out. Most stuff is fairly easy and you will pick it up as you go.  It kind of helps you bond with the animal and the animal with you.  I can’t put into words how important the relationship is between a horse and a rider, but it involves lots of trust and patience.  It will eventually turn into a bond that will hopefully last a lifetime. I would also suggest that maybe you start taking riding lessons before you buy horses.  The instructor will be able to teach you many things about horse care and horsemanship that will be invaluable down the road. Warren

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I’m partial to llamas in the backcountry. They can carry 100-120 lbs of gear (but not you), their padded feet are easier on the trails than a horse’s hoofs and they browse and eat their own food instead of grazing on scarce mountain grasses.

Llamas are out of the question. For one thing I need an animal to carry ME for one or two days, not 120 lbs of gear. For another thing, I’d be laughed out of Custer County.

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I’m not, nor will I ever be, an equestrian. But I’ve known enough of them that I’m familiar with some of the potential pitfalls of horse ownership. The best way to sum it up is to say that on a cost/hour basis, horses don’t make much economic sense for the casual fisherman. I realize that boarding costs are highly variable, presumably driven by geography and relative cost of living, but the prospect of shelling out thousands of dollars annually for a couple months’ usage would certainly be a sobering prospect indeed for many of us. Another point to consider: ATV’s are replacing working horses on some ranches (for some jobs). I bet it’s because they’re ‘cheaper to keep’. Good luck.

ATVs aren’t allowed most places I want to go. They don’t even allow mountain bikes. Also, I’m not looking at this as a purely economic deal. I like horses and I like riding them. I’m mainly concerned about the learning curve because I’ve never kept them before.

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Get the horses.  As a matter of fact buy some of my inlaws horses.  I already crash tested one. Seriously, horses are great for hunting and fishing trips.  You won’t need to ship them out to CA for the winter either.  We have over 40 head and keep them outside all winter long up here in Montana. As to feeding. That depends on how much room you have there.  You might get by with grazing them off the pasture if it is big enough and then feeding them hay in the winter.  Hay isn’t all that expensive really.  A horse needs about 2% of its body weight of feed a day.  A 1200 lb horse comes out to a wopping 24 pounds of hay.  Don’t know what the hay prices down there are, but up here it is about $60/ton of good alfalfa. As far as routine medications, just wormer once a year.  Maybe twice a year to be safe.  Want to be even safer?  Worm them or have them wormed before you bring them home.  Shouldn’t have to see a vet at all.  With 40 head we have had the vet out twice this year.  Both horses got caught in a fence.  One while rolling on the ground and got collicky because it was in the fence for several hours overnight and twisted (bad for horses intestines).  The other we think was kicking at a dog and got its legged stuck in a coral panel.  That one was pretty nasty. Try to find a book on horse care and read it for yourself and decide how much hassle it will be for you. Cost wise they are not too bad.  The big pain is in the beginning.  You can find a younger (5-10 year old horse) that is well broke for around $1,500. Then saddles and the other tack, well that depends on new or used.  Make sure you actually sit in the saddle before you buy one.  Ideally you want to sit in it on the horse to get a good feel for it.  Usually can’t though so just make sure you butt isn’t too big (or small).  You won’t need a fancy roping saddle or anything so used you can probably pick one up for about $400-500.  Shop around!  Read the classifieds, check out feed stores (sometimes they have bullentin boards with horses and tack for sale). Being on the high side, look to spend about $6,000 for 2 horses and tack and another $600 or so a year on hay. There are several things you can to do in taking care of horses to make them less at risk for disease, injury, and sickness so arm yourself with knowledge and make the decision afterwards. Happy Trails and Tight Lines. Warren PS-Stay away from llamas, they are for grass maggot (sheep) herders and a major pain (attitudes).

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I’m not, nor will I ever be, an equestrian. But I’ve known enough of them that I’m familiar with some of the potential pitfalls of horse ownership. The best way to sum it up is to say that on a cost/hour basis, horses don’t make much economic sense for the casual fisherman. I realize that boarding costs are highly variable, presumably driven by geography and relative cost of living, but the prospect of shelling out thousands of dollars annually for a couple months’ usage would certainly be a sobering prospect indeed for many of us. Another point to consider: ATV’s are replacing working horses on some ranches (for some jobs). I bet it’s because they’re ‘cheaper to keep’. Good luck. Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The very best flyfishing in my area (central Idaho) is fairly inaccessible. There are excellent wilderness rivers and backcountry lakes that require some pretty heroic hiking to get to, if you’re not rafting. Once you get there, though, you have it all to yourself, aside from the odd backpacker or two. I’m thinking of getting a couple of horses. I have room for a nice paddock next to my cabin. It’s also a consideration that my older daughter adores horses, and I made the potentially serious mistake of mentioning this idea to her. It’s really, really tempting. The other day, while hiking out from a backcountry lake and sweating blood, a couple of horseback riders passed me going up the trail at a fast trot. They were like gods. It looked so wonderful. My problem is that I have virtually no experience keeping horses. Just a few pack trips. How difficult is it? I’m what you’d call an animal-oriented person. I’ve always had lots of dogs and cats and a multitude of other creatures, but no horses. I figure that at a minimum I’d have to build a fence for the paddock, buy all the gear (in addition to the horses), find a ferrier and a large-animal vet, get a two-horse trailer, and arrange for someone to take care of them for the short periods when I’m not around. Then there’s the question of what to do with them in the winter. I figure I could trailer them back to my home in northern California (Menlo Park) and board them at one of the many stables here. These stables mostly cater to Woodside billionaires, but what the heck. It can’t be that expensive for a few months. Is this a stupid idea? Will I regret it?

Response:

The very best flyfishing in my area (central Idaho) is fairly inaccessible. There are excellent wilderness rivers and backcountry lakes that require some pretty heroic hiking to get to, if you’re not rafting. Once you get there, though, you have it all to yourself, aside from the odd backpacker or two. I’m thinking of getting a couple of horses.

I’m partial to llamas in the backcountry. They can carry 100-120 lbs of gear (but not you), their padded feet are easier on the trails than a horse’s hoofs and they browse and eat their own food instead of grazing on scarce mountain grasses. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Sounds like a great idea to me. If you have the time and possibilities, and can afford it, do it, but check the prices at those stables etc first, you may be very unpleasantly surprised, also horses involve a lot of care and work, far more than one imagines. Trailering them is also a pain, for you and for the horses. Mountain bikes can be thrown in the cabin or garage when you are done with them, don’t eat, don’t crap, and don’t get ill apart from an occasional broken chain etc. They cost much less than horses, they are less likely to get stolen, or run away, they are not edible to any great degree, and can not be turned into sausage meat, they do not wear extremely costly handmade steel shoes which require frequent replacement,  do not require horrendously expensive injections and medications at regular intervals, and they also require no looking after when you are absent. They do not engender quite as much enthusiasm on the part of dutiful daughters ( dutiful at least until the first ton of horse manure has to be shovelled out of somewhere ! ) I know a couple of the aforementioned daughters ! Their parents own quite a few horses. Quite amazing how often they have "urgent appointments" when the novelty has worn off, and the animals have to be groomed or cleaned out etc etc. If your daughter wants to ride, rent a horse for her for a while until you are certain she will keep it up and it is worth it. I know all this because I help out ( which usually means I shovel horse shit ! ) for the chance of an occasional ride on one of my friends horses. Not trying to dissuade you in any way, just playing advocatus diaboli. Just one other point, a very wise man once said to me when I asked him if something was a good idea " If you have to think very long and very hard about it, and are still not sure, don’t do it". TL MC

Response:

The very best flyfishing in my area (central Idaho) is fairly inaccessible. There are excellent wilderness rivers and backcountry lakes that require some pretty heroic hiking to get to, if you’re not rafting. Once you get there, though, you have it all to yourself, aside from the odd backpacker or two. I’m thinking of getting a couple of horses. I have room for a nice paddock next to my cabin. It’s also a consideration that my older daughter adores horses, and I made the potentially serious mistake of mentioning this idea to her. It’s really, really tempting. The other day, while hiking out from a backcountry lake and sweating blood, a couple of horseback riders passed me going up the trail at a fast trot. They were like gods. It looked so wonderful. My problem is that I have virtually no experience keeping horses. Just a few pack trips. How difficult is it? I’m what you’d call an animal-oriented person. I’ve always had lots of dogs and cats and a multitude of other creatures, but no horses. I figure that at a minimum I’d have to build a fence for the paddock, buy all the gear (in addition to the horses), find a ferrier and a large-animal vet, get a two-horse trailer, and arrange for someone to take care of them for the short periods when I’m not around. Then there’s the question of what to do with them in the winter. I figure I could trailer them back to my home in northern California (Menlo Park) and board them at one of the many stables here. These stables mostly cater to Woodside billionaires, but what the heck. It can’t be that expensive for a few months. Is this a stupid idea? Will I regret it?

Response:

Question:

But the government did many things for me just today. etc.

GOOD response.  We so often bite the hand that is suppplying our needs. Chuck Mealey Archer 2185B

Response:

In article xyz, (yet another NGrouper) writes: But the government did many things for me just today. GOOD response.  We so often bite the hand that is suppplying our needs.

Pitiful, just pitiful. Why is it so easy for some people to ignore that "the government did many things (TO) me just today"? It’s a healthy thing to take a regular and enthusiastic nip at "the hand that is supplying our ‘needs’". Where do you think the other hand is meanwhile? Jack

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When was the last time the government took you out to a nice dinner, or did anything for you, for that matter!!  ;)  

The government hasn’t bought me a dinner since I got our of the marines in 1954.   But the government did many things for me just today.  It provided a wx report so I could decide to go fishing. It forced a nearby chemical company to stop polluting the stream so I could fish there in safety. It built roads from my house to that trout stream.  It installed traffic lights to keep people from  smacking into me as I drove along.  I passed a prison where the government keeps many people locked up so they can’t break into my home.   I didn’t fly today, but when I do, I get even more detailed wx information and can file an ifr flight plan and be provided the services of a number of government employees to assist me in conducting aa safe flight to my destination. Yes, I helped pay for all those things the government did for me, because there isn’t anyone but us citizens to pay for them.  I don’t always get my money’s worth from Uncle Sam, but I don’t always get it from private-enterprise business firms, either!   There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch. vince norris

Response:

the stc and tso on drano is needed but then a licensed a&p is also needed along with a 337 and a blessing from the fsdo. if you don’t know what all these mean you can’t afford a plane **** Posted from RemarQ – http://www.remarq.com – Discussions Start Here ™ ****

Response:

Instead of flushing the grand down the toilet, I take the $1000 and buy something neat for my plane and that way I NEVER have bad feelings about where the money went…. Garrett

Well, you’re on the right track.  But what you really need is a short course in Gormanomics (the patented Jim Gorman approach to rationalizing an airplane…or any other absurd expenditure.)  Here’s how it works. Say something goes wrong and your mechanic tells you it’s going to cost $1,000 to replace it.  Oh no!  You don’t have $1,000 or anywhere near it. What are you going to do? Well, you find out that you can have it repaired for $400.  Presto!  You thought you were out $1,000 (that you didn’t have).  Now you’re only out $400 (that you also didn’t have).  But that means you’ve saved $600 from the amount you originally thought you were screwed.  So now you’ve got an extra $600 to blow on something like a new headset or a handheld GPS. Now for the advanced course in Gormanomics:  If you can find that $600 headset on sale for $500, you’ll save an additional $100 which you can now use to take your spouse out for a nice dinner so you don’t feel guilty for blowing all that money on the plane.  Now you’ve got a repaired gizmo, a new headset and a happy spouse. Now, wasn’t that easy?

Response:

Well, you find out that you can have it repaired for $400.  Presto!  You thought you were out $1,000 (that you didn’t have).  Now you’re only out $400 (that you also didn’t have).  But that means you’ve saved $600 from the amount you originally thought you were screwed.  So now you’ve got an extra $600 to blow on something like a new headset or a handheld GPS. Now for the advanced course in Gormanomics:  If you can find that $600 headset on sale for $500, you’ll save an additional $100 which you can now use to take your spouse out for a nice dinner so you don’t feel guilty for blowing all that money on the plane.  Now you’ve got a repaired gizmo, a new headset and a happy spouse.

Uhm, Jim isn’t that how the government budget surplus works, too? Mike

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Instead of flushing the grand down the toilet, I take the $1000 and buy something neat for my plane and that way I NEVER have bad feelings about where the money went…. Garrett Well, you’re on the right track.  But what you really need is a short course in Gormanomics (the patented Jim Gorman approach to rationalizing an airplane…or any other absurd expenditure.)  Here’s how it works. Say something goes wrong and your mechanic tells you it’s going to cost $1,000 to replace it.  Oh no!  You don’t have $1,000 or anywhere near it. What are you going to do? Well, you find out that you can have it repaired for $400.  Presto! You thought you were out $1,000 (that you didn’t have).  Now you’re only out $400 (that you also didn’t have).  But that means you’ve saved $600 from the amount you originally thought you were screwed.  So now you’ve got an extra $600 to blow on something like a new headset or a handheld GPS. Now for the advanced course in Gormanomics:  If you can find that $600 headset on sale for $500, you’ll save an additional $100 which you can now use to take your spouse out for a nice dinner so you don’t feel guilty for blowing all that money on the plane.  Now you’ve got a repaired gizmo, a new headset and a happy spouse. Now, wasn’t that easy?

Your right, it’s very straightforward.  In fact, from what I understand, this is exactly how Congress does it when they say tax ‘cuts’ and budget ‘cuts’! –Mike Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Can you afford an airplane? Do this test. Take a $1000 bill (you DO have a $1000 bill dont you?), and flush it down the toilet. If it hurts, you can’t afford an airplane, if it doesn’t hurt too bad, you can probably afford one.

What does strength (holding on against the suction) have to do with affording an airplane?

Response:

Can you afford an airplane? Do this test. Take a $1000 bill (you DO have a $1000 bill dont you?), and flush it down the toilet. If it hurts, you can’t afford an airplane, if it doesn’t hurt too bad, you can probably afford one.

I think Drano puts out a special formula product to unclog toilets that have had this test performed. The only bad part is it costs $999.95

Response:

Hmm.  I thought you supposed to burn the $1000’s.  I knew I was doing something wrong!!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can you afford an airplane? Do this test. Take a $1000 bill (you DO have a $1000 bill dont you?), and flush it down the toilet. If it hurts, you can’t afford an airplane, if it doesn’t hurt too bad, you can probably afford one.

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Is that the special STC’d and TSO’d Drano???? **** Posted from RemarQ – http://www.remarq.com – Discussions Start Here ™ ****

Response:

Instead of flushing the grand down the toilet, I take the $1000 and buy something neat for my plane and that way I NEVER have bad feelings about where the money went…. Garrett

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My plumber … he has an airplane … think I know how he got it now … – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is that the special STC’d and TSO’d Drano???? **** Posted from RemarQ – http://www.remarq.com – Discussions Start Here ™ ****

Response:

Except that they forget about the part of making everybody happy.  When was the last time the government took you out to a nice dinner, or did anything for you, for that matter!!  ;)   If you can remember this, you are probably too old to pass the medical, so don’t bother to buy the airplane! Your right, it’s very straightforward.  In fact, from what I understand, this is exactly how Congress does it when they say tax ‘cuts’ and budget ‘cuts’! –Mike Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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IF GOD HAD WANTED MAN TO FLY HE WOULD HAVE GIVEN HIM MONEY!!!! says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Can you afford an airplane? Do this test. Take a $1000 bill (you DO have a $1000 bill dont you?), and flush it down the toilet. If it hurts, you can’t afford an airplane, if it doesn’t hurt too bad, you can probably afford one.

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Question:

You won’t be mindin’ if we keep an eye on where the hole card comes from.  ;-)

hell no, i was going to get Honest Wayno’s Guide Service to do the dealing.  If you can’t trust an attorney, who can you trust? Personally, I was hoping one of Big John’s gals would handle the deal. About the fish, now I know why I’ve heard stories of you going through a crate of splitshot a season.  :)

don’t know ’bout ’shot…..you’d have to talk to Matt "egg-dredgin" McCray ’bout dat. Waldo, lost two wild brookies today….man I’m rusty.

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This Clave thing presents a great opportunity for a human interest story for a FFing magazine. Here’s the concept. A bunch of crusty old flyfishers get together in NC. They have only two things in common: a love of flyfishing and an acquaintance through ROFF. These guys don’t know each other face-to-face, for the most part, but they are acquainted through years and years of give-and-take in a Usenet group. Imagine the group dynamics. Who can outfish whom? Who can tell the biggest lies? Who knows the perfect knot? Who has the best self-tied flies? Will they check their weapons at the door? It goes on and on. Yep, it could be a great story. If you know a good writer please clue him in. — something bogus to avoid spam)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This Clave thing presents a great opportunity for a human interest story for a FFing magazine. (snip) Yep, it could be a great story. If you know a good writer please clue him in.         more than one of those will be present as participants.  you will not be disappointed with the communiques from the front, nor with reviews filed upon a chance for retrospection. wayno —

wayno, can i be the gun checker? btw, was that you are chub that got the sam in the ass saturday? makes you feel like that monkey, donchano. i can’t even view it now, it hurts. i’m off….damn tax thing tomorrow. waldo

Response:

This Clave thing presents a great opportunity for a human interest story for a FFing magazine. (snip) Yep, it could be a great story. If you know a good writer please clue him in.

        more than one of those will be present as participants.  you will not be disappointed with the communiques from the front, nor with reviews filed upon a chance for retrospection. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Mr. G. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This Clave thing presents a great opportunity for a human interest story for a FFing magazine. (snip) Yep, it could be a great story. If you know a good writer please clue him in.         more than one of those will be present as participants.  you will not be disappointed with the communiques from the front, nor with reviews filed upon a chance for retrospection. wayno — wayno, can i be the gun checker? btw, was that you are chub that got the sam in the ass saturday? makes you feel like that monkey, donchano. i can’t even view it now, it hurts. i’m off….damn tax thing tomorrow. waldo

– Visit: http://www.gink.com        http://www.xink.com        http://www.rodbuilding.com        http://www.rodbuilder.com All Writings & Rights Reserved

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Larry-  Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.    Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material we have tested.    Loop Knots:    Bimini-100 percent, Uni knot- 96 percent, Monofilament loop- 87 percent, Perfection- 85 percent, 2X surgeons- 68 percent, 4X surgeons- 68 percent, 6X surgeons-81 percent, 7X surgeons-73 percent.    FYI: the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent.         the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent.         the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent.         the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent.   -Ralph

DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.  Are you just using a regular pull scales or what?  And the Dai Rikki comment I also don’t agree solidly with, but I don’t want to argue this with you because I don’t know what your controls are and the fact the IGFA specifies along with a breaking +/- % centage that there are more than one mono product(s) that breaks EXACTLY where they should and at EXACTLY the same breaking points in percentages in order to set "World Recognized IGFA Records".  MAXIMA is one such product along with Andre, Trileen, etc.  This is what makes your "most consistant comment" void (or dubious)and really, frankly biased in the face of real (already established) scientific facts compared to our and other scientific laboratory tests which have been conducted by major monofiliment companies.  Yet, I am pleased you are getting into this field and that your interests are so strong.  I hope you continue it, but I think you should ‘rethink’ your approach and possibly revisit your testing equipment and/or procedures.  Test should be run both dry and wet and off the same spool stock or batch.  Etc, etc.  But I find serious disagreement with your percentages.  Our recent tests with Knot-Perfect Knot Lube certainly changes the entire realm of how knots should behave and function.  For true uniformity, this product will definately change test results . . . and all "CONSISTANTLY for the Better".  I will send you some for your testing as a sponsor and supporter in your work, if you like.  Just need a mailing address Ralph.   Mr. G.

Response:

Hi George-  Your letter is responding to Ralph H, not me, Ralph Cutter. Non-the-less I found your post amusing, and left me with a few questions: This is why I always fish with Maxima because I have a lifetime of fishing experience with this ONE BRAND.  Every knot I tie in it is known. . . Now, this statement is about as bold as you can do, but lets face it.  I know what the hell I’m doing. . .  It means consistant breaking

or parting percentages every time.    I’m curious as to why you chose Maxima. Of ALL the lines we have tested it is the most inconsistent. The diameter, color and strength vary greatly from spool to spool and we’ve noted up to .02 differences in the same spool. This is an observation made by several different line testers.   Maxima is an old product. Over the past decade Polymer technologies have advanced almost as fast as computers. My old Kaypro was fine in its time, but in the case of plastics and computers newer is better. A breaking scale does not a scientist make.  

   That is why we employed a polymer chemist to help us with our testing parameters. Much of the actual testing was done by an engineer with thirty years of stress analysis at Lockheed and Kaiser. I also know that there are much more consistant breaking and more reliable tippet materials than those bragged about.

Please share these with us. I was also amused by your previous post stating saying your knot glue was a new and revoltionary concept that could change the face of flyfishing. Forty years ago Herter’s sold a glue that was guaranteed to make monolfilament knots 100 percent. When nylon was introduced, many knot glue products were sold to help people with this new slippery material. A good product probably; revolutionary, hardly. I agree fully with the concept of your glue. ZAP A GAP and PVC cement do the same. Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com  /v/                             /v/

Response:

If Tony and Spinolio got married they’d have offspring named Toniolio.

Easy for you, Tim to ponder Tony’s mating habits when your mouth has obviously been surgically attached to his fat ass <G. For the record, I have a tube of George’s knot-goop *and* I agree with Tony…noone I know would fool with it astream…a little spit-tle do ya…it snot that big of thing…

For the record I *don’t* have a tube and would never buy one (come fishing with me, Tim, and you’ll see how I tie knots). My post was in response to Gades telling George to stop posting, as if this were something Gades has the power to do. (Note to Gades: I got your big, bad hate mail, just as other people warned me I would. Apparently you’re becoming famous for this sort of thing. Very scary, but don’t flatter yourself…I would never actually email you).   No good will become the fellow that needs lubricant to tie a knot.

Don’t look at me, you’re the one who bought it. Spinolio

Response:

Hi Rick-   The Orvis Knot and the Mono loop knot tested virtually the same. E mail me your postal address and I’ll send you more data.   -Ralph

Ralph, I notice you have a web site. Maybe you could put your results up there (so you don’t have dozens of us requesting copies in the mail). Thanks for the informative posts. Jim Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com /v/                            /v/

– Opinions expressed are my own, and not those of my employer.

Response:

  If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? Must be naught tests. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me.

Great .sig file Anglerboy !.  You gotta love it… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

It is extremely easy to see why you, based on your cumulative "contibutions" to date, would be intimidated by posts that demonstrate an active thought process.

Let me know when you come up with one. As for the streamside choice, I applaud your choosing knot-goop.

I would only choose a tube of knot-goop over your company… better conversation. It is consistent with the fact that you don’t actually fish.

Yeesh… ya really got me with that one, Tony. Same to you, only double! Ha! I’ve been to your masturbatory web site… are you the fat, ugly cosksucker holding the dead fish or is that your Orvis-endorsed guide. Spinolio

Response:

If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? TimW Halfordian Golfer

As you can tell from the way these threads are unspooling, the answer to that question is still tied up in debate.  If I understand these tests correctly, we should all start using distilled water and George’s goop — they’ll make our knots so strong we’ll be uprooting trees every time we try to yank a fly free from a limb. John

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   (much blather snipped)   Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test   that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would   bother with such a product streamside.   Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t   imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside   or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down.   Spinolio It is extremely easy to see why you, based on your cumulative "contibutions" to date, would be intimidated by posts that demonstrate an active thought process.

.. hmmm sounds interesting Mr Gades. Based on your CV (checked out that web site you advertise) this is something you know a thing or two about. Sometime maybe you’ll take a break from being crabby and give us a demo! 8^) Ralph H (just a simple dip shit) " … the sabbath rang slowly in the pebbles of the holy streams!" Dylan Thomas, "Fern Hill" " One man free to love his minute   in the realms of flesh and sun   breaks down more pain than ages   of humane law or lawyers can." Leonard Cohen, " Crying, Come Back, Hero"

Response:

Hi Jon-   We found that as monofilament soaks up water it becomes increasingly vulnerable to cutting itself with tight radius knots (mono loop and wind knots). Clinching type knots (Uni-knot) actually often became a bit stronger, possibly because the swelling of the monofilament created a tighter grip.    When developing testing parameters we put knotted lines in water and tested knots at 5 minute intervals. After about 30 minutes the changes were no longer noticable. For the hell of it we let the lines soak for an additional 15 minutes simply to be sure they were soaked to capacity.    The IGFA also soaks lines before subjecting them to class rating tests.    -Ralph Ralph, I am curious why you use 45 min. soaking. I can see wetting having one or more of several effects. 1) just surface coating which may affect surface tension or lubricity of the knots in some way and possibly affecting cinching or stress production in the knot and 2) interaction with the plastic polymer which would imply some sort of penetration into the plastic and a change of its physical characteristics. #1 would happen immediately upon wetting and #2 may be time-dependent based on the permeability of the plastic. A grey-zone might occur if #1 was the main effect but the water required time to penetrate the knot. It would be easy to test by looking at change in breaking strength over time of a wet strand in the absence of a knot. Any comments? Just curious. Jon

Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com  /v/                             /v/

Response:

  If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? Must be naught tests. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio Right on! It’s about time somebody called-out this Gades character. I’ve yet to read a post where he didn’t come off as being pompous and rude.

If Tony and Spinolio got married they’d have offspring named Toniolio. Whydoncha relax a notch swatson ? For the record, I have a tube of George’s knot-goop *and* I agree with Tony…noone I know would fool with it astream…a little spit-tle do ya…it snot that big of thing… No good will become the fellow that needs lubricant to tie a knot. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

(much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio

Right on! It’s about time somebody called-out this Gades character. I’ve yet to read a post where he didn’t come off as being pompous and rude.

Response:

Hi Rick-    The Orvis Knot and the Mono loop knot tested virtually the same. E mail me your postal address and I’ll send you more data.    -Ralph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great post!!   I was wondering, you mention that the Orvis knot was "far short of the Uni-knot" but you didn’t give a percentage.  I tend to like the Orvis knot because of it’s ease in tying and the thought that it was so strong. Also, I think a comparision of Wet to Dry Knot strenths would be very interesting.  Do you have that kind of data?   I have never considered the Duncan Loop to be a very strong knot but your data does not support this idea. Once agin, thanks for the information and keep up the good work. Rick Richard Padgett

Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com  /v/                             /v/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Organization: Gehrke’s Gink/Xink Fly Fishing Products Company   DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.   Mr. G. Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he lied. , While I found the info interesting it has to be noted that no experiment is valid beyond the parameters of it’s design. For example who fishes in distilled water? Who soaks their leader in water for 45 minutes and why was that time period chosen (was it chosen arbitrarily?) Leaders are in the water usually for no more than a few minutes and then dried – at least partially – by casting. Do we know the extent of saturation of a typical leader on an average day? What was the precise breaking strain of the mono before the knot was tied? What was the breaking strain of the knot? what was the degree of confidence in the test? None the less the relative breaking strains of the knots are informative. AND! George seems to have thrown down a gauntlet regarding the effectiveness of his knot goop. I for one would be fascinated by an independent before and after sort of comparison. Ralph H (just a simple dipshit 8^) ) "…      the sabbath rang slowly      in the pebbles of the holy streams!" Dylan Thomas, "Fern Hill"

RALPH, you are not a dipshit.  Christ.  Loosen up.  What you should do is reread every sentence in my answer carefully without putting words in my mouth.  Re-review the part about the IGFA and think a bit.  What I say is based on sound facts.  If you want to call someone a liar, than you should but don’t count me in on your train-of-logic because it is also incorrect.  As far as challenges are concerned regarding KNOT-PERFECT, I will say this Ralph.  I will challenge anyone in the world not to agree that Knot-Perfect, (WATCH MY WORDS!) will make any brand of tippet/leader material (KNOT FOR KNOT) a more consistant breaking knot for THAT MATERIAL.  Understand? For instance, a batch or spool of 2# test may break variously with ONE KNOT but once you use KNOT-PERFECT on that same knot each time its tied, that knot will break more consistantly AT THE SAME POUNDAGE than with any other product in the world. What this means Ralph is this.  You can train yourself with two pound test and with the same brand of mono used every time to sense or KNOW how hard to fight and pull on a fish before that brand and knot will break.  This comes with experience.  It is not learned over-night. This is why I always fish with Maxima because I have a lifetime of fishing experience with this ONE BRAND.  Every knot I tie in it is known.  A blood knot will break at a different percentage than another. Etc.  However, my friend; there are things that KNOT-PERFECT does inside a knot and too the monofiliment that no other product in the world can do.  Now, this statement is about as bold as you can do, but lets face it.  I know what the hell I’m doing.  I haven’t spend years in my chemistry lab just swatting flies on the walls.  The point is, KNOT-PERFECT takes fishermen in all catagories that are knot-perfect and makes them (you guessed it) PERFECT!  The knots aren’t burnt.  The knots are no longer chaffed or cracked under pressure, and every knot squeezes down (for THAT PARTICULAR KNOT) around where the main tippet stem enters the knot EXACTLY THE SAME AND UNDER THE SAME PRESSURE TIME AND TIME AGAIN.  This means what?  It means consistant breaking or parting percentages every time. So, if you are tying a blood-knot all the time, for each poundage at its weakest point . . . you have dialed in a confidence level never before dreamed or possible before.  A 2.1 # test tippet in a blood-knot will break (for example) at exactly 1.9 LBS. time and time again, without exception.  This has never been possible before in the entire history of fishing.  Any kind of fishing, Ralph. A breaking scale does not a scientist make.  I still do not know what kind of scales are used or the testing parimeters.  In fact, none of us do.  The variables are massive from what we read compared to our lab tests.  I still will not compound an arguement or difference of opinion but what I am saying is that the test results posted are ‘very general.’ They are general because you do not know the material diameters, the length of the male verses the female side or; the cope vs the drag side or put another way, the length of the bottom tippet verses the top? Were identical diameters used or was a two pound test tippet attached to a four pound test piece?  I also know that there are much more consistant breaking and more reliable tippet materials than those bragged about.  And I mean, by a long shot, Ralph. And no.  I don’t know everything.  I’m no smart-ass, but I’m not stupid either.  I’ve done a lot of research work in this industry Ralph and I’m not here belittle anyone.  But I am here to freely disagree when I know I’m right. I’ll leave it at that and you all can have this thread.  I’m sorry I butted in where I wasn’t wanted. Have a nice season. Mr. G. POST SCRIPT:  I was just asked what I use all the time and of course it is Maxima.  I cannot stand tippet material that snake and curl up like D.Reek/etc. does once you catch a fish and stretch it.  No Sir.  Maxima doesn’t do this and I do not like hard, slick surfaced tippet material for much the same reasons.  When I die and they bury me, they can put a spool of Maxima in my shirt pocket so I won’t run out of it in heaven. Everyone.

Response:

If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Organization: Gehrke’s Gink/Xink Fly Fishing Products Company   DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.   Mr. G. Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he lied. ,

While I found the info interesting it has to be noted that no experiment is valid beyond the parameters of it’s design. For example who fishes in distilled water? Who soaks their leader in water for 45 minutes and why was that time period chosen (was it chosen arbitrarily?) Leaders are in the water usually for no more than a few minutes and then dried – at least partially – by casting. Do we know the extent of saturation of a typical leader on an average day? What was the precise breaking strain of the mono before the knot was tied? What was the breaking strain of the knot? what was the degree of confidence in the test? None the less the relative breaking strains of the knots are informative. AND! George seems to have thrown down a gauntlet regarding the effectiveness of his knot goop. I for one would be fascinated by an independent before and after sort of comparison. Ralph H (just a simple dipshit 8^) ) "…      the sabbath rang slowly      in the pebbles of the holy streams!" Dylan Thomas, "Fern Hill"

Response:

   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    (much blather snipped)     Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test     that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would     bother with such a product streamside.    Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t    imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside    or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down.    Spinolio It is extremely easy to see why you, based on your cumulative "contibutions" to date, would be intimidated by posts that demonstrate an active thought process. As for the streamside choice, I applaud your choosing knot-goop.  It is consistent with the fact that you don’t actually fish. _pompously_ yours,         -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

Response:

example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.

Great post!!   I was wondering, you mention that the Orvis knot was "far short of the Uni-knot" but you didn’t give a percentage.  I tend to like the Orvis knot because of it’s ease in tying and the thought that it was so strong. Also, I think a comparision of Wet to Dry Knot strenths would be very interesting.  Do you have that kind of data?   I have never considered the Duncan Loop to be a very strong knot but your data does not support this idea. Once agin, thanks for the information and keep up the good work. Rick Richard Padgett

Response:

(much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside.

Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio

Response:

..snip…. Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp.

…snip… Ralph, I am curious why you use 45 min. soaking. I can see wetting having one or more of several effects. 1) just surface coating which may affect surface tension or lubricity of the knots in some way and possibly affecting cinching or stress production in the knot and 2) interaction with the plastic polymer which would imply some sort of penetration into the plastic and a change of its physical characteristics. #1 would happen immediately upon wetting and #2 may be time-dependent based on the permeability of the plastic. A grey-zone might occur if #1 was the main effect but the water required time to penetrate the knot. It would be easy to test by looking at change in breaking strength over time of a wet strand in the absence of a knot. Any comments? Just curious. Jon

Response:

  Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Organization: Gehrke’s Gink/Xink Fly Fishing Products Company   DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.   Mr. G.

Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he lied. Quote another test, its methods and results, and to make it useful to us, skip using that knot-goop because nobody is going to bother using such a product in the real world. A trilene knot (which I primarily use) has been shown repeatedly to have a breaking strength of 100%.  The 6x blood knot ranks in around 70%.  The perfection loop ranks in around 90-100%.  These results I’ve seen repeatedly.  These are the same results found by Mr. Cutter. I see no reason to disagree. Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. cheers,         -tony — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Larry-    Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.    Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material we have tested.    Loop Knots:    Bimini-100 percent, Uni knot- 96 percent, Monofilament loop- 87 percent, Perfection- 85 percent, 2X surgeons- 68 percent, 4X surgeons- 68 percent, 6X surgeons-81 percent, 7X surgeons-73 percent.    FYI: the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent.         the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent.         the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent.         the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent.

But of course.  This is the one I tie best.  Hey, if you have good eyes, they also make a half-way decent strike indicator!  :-)   -Ralph

Cheers, and tight lines. -Mark PS:  ’Love your book, Ralph.  It should be required reading for Sierra trout anglers.  Keep up the good work.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he While I found the info interesting it has to be noted that no experiment is valid beyond the parameters of it’s design. For example who fishes in distilled water? Who soaks their leader in water for 45 minutes and why was that time period chosen (was it chosen arbitrarily?) Leaders are in the water usually for no more than a few minutes and then dried,at least partially by casting. Do we know the extent of saturation of a typical leader on an average day? What was the precise breaking strain of the mono before the knot was tied? What was the breaking strain of the knot? what was the degree of confidence in the test?

Hey dip…., You bring up some very valid points.  I don’t think the soaking time is important as long as the interval is consistant – the main thing is the line was wet (something I didn’t do when I performed a series of breaking tests). None the less the relative breaking strains of the knots are informative.

Yep, on a relative basis it is good information to know.  Regardless of what knot you use, I find one of the most important things is to make sure the knot is snugged up tight to prevent it from cutting into its’ self and breaking. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley         2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

Response:

Hi Larry-    Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.    Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material we have tested.    Loop Knots:    Bimini-100 percent, Uni knot- 96 percent, Monofilament loop- 87 percent, Perfection- 85 percent, 2X surgeons- 68 percent, 4X surgeons- 68 percent, 6X surgeons-81 percent, 7X surgeons-73 percent.    FYI: the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent.         the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent.         the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent.         the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent.   -Ralph

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good Evening…. It’s been an interesting winter here on r.o.f.f., and I must say it’s been difficult to keep my mouth shut on a number of the more controversial issues…..but I wanted to actually think about my response(s) to a number of subjects before I spouted off…if you may be offended by a different opinion than yours….DELETE NOW Trolling And Ethics… Being one of those Streamer fishermen from Maine, who likes to troll along shore in my canoe, or along the edge of the retreating ice,  I am perplexed by everyone getting uptight about defining this practice as flyfishing or not….FWIW…I look at it this way:  There is "flyfishing", and there is "fishing with a fly".  Neither is superior to the other….both require the angler to choose an immitation to best match the "natural", in this case the predominant forage fish. The gear used may be identical in both types of fishing (perhaps not), but the key difference is the method of presenting the fly.  In my definition, "flyfishing" involves casting a fly/streamer, and also a retrieve. "Fishing with a fly" doesn’t normally meet these presentation criteria. As far as the ethics thing is concerned….I’ll simply say that just because you consider "flyfishing" superior to "fishing with a fly", doesn’t make it so.  I participate in both activities without guilt All to often nowadays…people seem to have adopted a "holier than thou art" attitude….call it human nature?  Leave it at home when you come to Maine, Please.  We let everyone fish here. Yuppification and Warrantees…. The sport of flyfishing has become a very fashionable thing to do nowadays….and if you don’t truly attain some sort of transcendental state whilst doing it….fake it.  Taking up flyfishing also automatically qualifies you as an adventurer and outdoorsman/woman, though I prefer to think of the Yuppies as "Weekend Grizzly Adams’s"…It’s quite comical actually…until they realize there are no streetlights or phone booths to dial 911 in the backcountry. I once had a 9′ 5wt Double L Rod from LL Bean…it’s now 8′10.5"…I broke the tip….it was NOT a manufacturer’s defect….it was operator error….I will not return it.  To those who have slammed rods in car doors, etc. and demanded they be replaced under warranty….Thanks a bunch….I appreciate paying $100 more per rod for your clumsiness, and lack of personal responsibility. Hatches…. Many folks really enjoy studying entimology, and learning every species, genus, and phylum….good for you!  I hope you get enjoyment from that!  Many of us are perfectly content with common names for insects, however…..Sulphurs, BWO’s, Red Quills….are the names I use, and I have flies to match them in size, shape, color, and sillouhette.   It’s still flyfishing, and I catch plenty of fish. Smoking and Black Flies…. I’m planning to quit this summer….after the black fly season during spring fishing….don’t know what I’ll do next spring.  I appreciate all of the non-smokers concern for those of us who do enjoy a smoke….we know you’re concerned….we know the health risks….but believe me…you accomplish nothing by repeating this information ad nauseum to us.  Please refrain….I carry out all litter, and I’ll stand downwind from you.  I promise. There…I feel much better now.  Time to enter Lurk Mode again! Regards, R.A. Skehan

I feel better, too. Catch what you eat, eat what you catch, enjoy the trip.  Pretty simple, really.  Everything else is just details. If you want to just mess around with the fish, buy an aquarium. Donning my asbestos suit, Jim Wagner — Jim Wagner http://www.pagesz.net/~n4svz

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Catch what you eat, eat what you catch, enjoy the trip.  Pretty simple, really.  Everything else is just details.

You mean, like the beer ? Now yours is a slogan I can live with. TimW

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Excellent post. Right on the mark as I troll streamers as well as "flycast". Trolling streamers is a time honored tradition and a great way to relax and take in the surroundings. I have caught many nice Landlocks on Munsungan Lake this way.  If we see fish working, then we reel in and cast to them. As far as yuppification, I agree but don’t see anything we can do about it other than make fun.

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perhaps the best post I’ve read all week! Superior to the ralph H / Moe Skeeter diatibes Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Good Evening…. It’s been an interesting winter here on r.o.f.f., and I must say it’s been difficult to keep my mouth shut on a number of the more controversial issues…..but I wanted to actually think about my response(s) to a number of subjects before I spouted off…if you may be offended by a different opinion than yours….DELETE NOW Trolling And Ethics… Being one of those Streamer fishermen from Maine, who likes to troll along shore in my canoe, or along the edge of the retreating ice,  I am perplexed by everyone getting uptight about defining this practice as flyfishing or not….FWIW…I look at it this way:  There is "flyfishing", and there is "fishing with a fly".  Neither is superior to the other….both require the angler to choose an immitation to best match the "natural", in this case the predominant forage fish. The gear used may be identical in both types of fishing (perhaps not), but the key difference is the method of presenting the fly.  In my definition, "flyfishing" involves casting a fly/streamer, and also a retrieve. "Fishing with a fly" doesn’t normally meet these presentation criteria.   As far as the ethics thing is concerned….I’ll simply say that just because you consider "flyfishing" superior to "fishing with a fly", doesn’t make it so.  I participate in both activities without guilt All to often nowadays…people seem to have adopted a "holier than thou art" attitude….call it human nature?  Leave it at home when you come to Maine, Please.  We let everyone fish here. Yuppification and Warrantees…. The sport of flyfishing has become a very fashionable thing to do nowadays….and if you don’t truly attain some sort of transcendental state whilst doing it….fake it.  Taking up flyfishing also automatically qualifies you as an adventurer and outdoorsman/woman, though I prefer to think of the Yuppies as "Weekend Grizzly Adams’s"…It’s quite comical actually…until they realize there are no streetlights or phone booths to dial 911 in the backcountry. I once had a 9′ 5wt Double L Rod from LL Bean…it’s now 8′10.5"…I broke the tip….it was NOT a manufacturer’s defect….it was operator error….I will not return it.  To those who have slammed rods in car doors, etc. and demanded they be replaced under warranty….Thanks a bunch….I appreciate paying $100 more per rod for your clumsiness, and lack of personal responsibility. Hatches…. Many folks really enjoy studying entimology, and learning every species, genus, and phylum….good for you!  I hope you get enjoyment from that!  Many of us are perfectly content with common names for insects, however…..Sulphurs, BWO’s, Red Quills….are the names I use, and I have flies to match them in size, shape, color, and sillouhette.   It’s still flyfishing, and I catch plenty of fish. Smoking and Black Flies…. I’m planning to quit this summer….after the black fly season during spring fishing….don’t know what I’ll do next spring.  I appreciate all of the non-smokers concern for those of us who do enjoy a smoke….we know you’re concerned….we know the health risks….but believe me…you accomplish nothing by repeating this information ad nauseum to us.  Please refrain….I carry out all litter, and I’ll stand downwind from you.  I promise. There…I feel much better now.  Time to enter Lurk Mode again! Regards, R.A. Skehan

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Good Evening…. It’s been an interesting winter here on r.o.f.f., and I must say it’s been difficult to keep my mouth shut on a number of the more controversial issues…..but I wanted to actually think about my response(s) to a number of subjects before I spouted off…if you may be offended by a different opinion than yours….DELETE NOW Trolling And Ethics… Being one of those Streamer fishermen from Maine, who likes to troll along shore in my canoe, or along the edge of the retreating ice,  I am perplexed by everyone getting uptight about defining this practice as flyfishing or not….FWIW…I look at it this way:  There is "flyfishing", and there is "fishing with a fly".  Neither is superior to the other….both require the angler to choose an immitation to best match the "natural", in this case the predominant forage fish. The gear used may be identical in both types of fishing (perhaps not), but the key difference is the method of presenting the fly.  In my definition, "flyfishing" involves casting a fly/streamer, and also a retrieve. "Fishing with a fly" doesn’t normally meet these presentation criteria.   As far as the ethics thing is concerned….I’ll simply say that just because you consider "flyfishing" superior to "fishing with a fly", doesn’t make it so.  I participate in both activities without guilt All to often nowadays…people seem to have adopted a "holier than thou art" attitude….call it human nature?  Leave it at home when you come to Maine, Please.  We let everyone fish here. Yuppification and Warrantees…. The sport of flyfishing has become a very fashionable thing to do nowadays….and if you don’t truly attain some sort of transcendental state whilst doing it….fake it.  Taking up flyfishing also automatically qualifies you as an adventurer and outdoorsman/woman, though I prefer to think of the Yuppies as "Weekend Grizzly Adams’s"…It’s quite comical actually…until they realize there are no streetlights or phone booths to dial 911 in the backcountry. I once had a 9′ 5wt Double L Rod from LL Bean…it’s now 8′10.5"…I broke the tip….it was NOT a manufacturer’s defect….it was operator error….I will not return it.  To those who have slammed rods in car doors, etc. and demanded they be replaced under warranty….Thanks a bunch….I appreciate paying $100 more per rod for your clumsiness, and lack of personal responsibility. Hatches…. Many folks really enjoy studying entimology, and learning every species, genus, and phylum….good for you!  I hope you get enjoyment from that!  Many of us are perfectly content with common names for insects, however…..Sulphurs, BWO’s, Red Quills….are the names I use, and I have flies to match them in size, shape, color, and sillouhette.   It’s still flyfishing, and I catch plenty of fish. Smoking and Black Flies…. I’m planning to quit this summer….after the black fly season during spring fishing….don’t know what I’ll do next spring.  I appreciate all of the non-smokers concern for those of us who do enjoy a smoke….we know you’re concerned….we know the health risks….but believe me…you accomplish nothing by repeating this information ad nauseum to us.  Please refrain….I carry out all litter, and I’ll stand downwind from you.  I promise. There…I feel much better now.  Time to enter Lurk Mode again! Regards, R.A. Skehan

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Question:

After reading this group for a couple of years it has become clear that a lot of people either have much more disposable income than I do, or that my priorities are skewed somehow.  At any rate, I’m looking for a new rod to replace the old glass Fenwick I’ve fished for 15+ years, but I don’t want to shell out $300.  Or even $200.  Less than $100 would be great–

Well, Derek, there is both bad news and good news for you. Yes, there was a time long ago when it was possible to fool a trout and enjoy a "quality angling experience" (QAE to those of us in the industry) with a $100 rod, but those days are long behind us. As we approach the turn of a century, studies show that there are very few trout in today’s streams that will engage anglers who use inexpensive rods. Sure, some anglers will tell you that when it comes to rod blanks, "plastic is plastic", but someone who really knows the industry will answer "yes, but some plastics are more plastic than others". Having arrived at this dilemma, your choice becomes clear. The good news for you, Derek, is that you are unlikely to find many rods for less than $200, making it much easier for you to avoid an inexpensive flyrod by simply paying more money for an expensive one. Moreover, a knowledgeable rod merchant will surely do all he can to guide you toward the most expensive alternative to an inexpensive purchase. Spinolio

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Want I want is simple, an 8.5′ 5wt rod that will cast well enough to keep me happy and won’t fall apart. The St. Croix Pro Graphite rods have gotten very good reviews, I often hear them being called the best value in fly fishing. I think cost $75 or so. St. Croix Imperials and Redington Red Start rods are also supposed to be nice, they cost between $100 and $150.

Several people have made this recommendation.  The problem is, there are no fly shops anywhere near me.  The only place in town with fly gear sells G. Loomis rods (at list) to yuppies, and little else (it’s just a sporting goods store).  Anyone know of a good mail order source?  Some place with a friendly return policy? Test cast them all and let me know how it comes out!

Can anyone recommend a fly shop (or a good sporting retailer) in Indianapolis or Louisville?  I usually wait until I’m back in Oregon/Idaho visiting family to buy anything of significance (Kaufman’s Streamborne in PDX, and Intermountain Arms in Boise). — Derek R. Larson           Indiana University       Department of History   "Eastward I go by force, but Westward I go free!"  -H. D. Thoreau

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Not quite….the Legend Series St Croix is 42 million mods, while the less expensive Imperial is 32 million modulus, and is a somewhat slower action rod.

I like a slower action, and fortunately (for me) the slower rods can be less expensive (unless you get into split cane, but that’s a whole other topic).   When you’re rod shopping, one method that works pretty well is to not only test cast the rod (or rods) you’re thinking of buying, but to also test a more expensive rod, so you have something for comparison.  You may even find that the less expensive rod is more to your liking.  Find the rod that is right for you, and to hell with what you’re "supposed" to prefer.  The emperor has no clothes. CQ

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Rick Fletcher wrote to: [snip] try and build from a blank.  It’s worth the time and money saved, just like tying.

Interesting idea. How much would it cost to build my own $300 rod? How much is saved? bird

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Several people have made this recommendation.  The problem is, there are no fly shops anywhere near me.  The only place in town with fly gear sells G. Loomis rods (at list) to yuppies, and little else (it’s just a sporting goods store).  Anyone know of a good mail order source?  Some place with a friendly return policy?

Ask the ownner if you can look at his gear catalogues – he is visited weekly by fishing gear salesmen who would gladly sell him anything he wanted to buy.  He probably keeps the catalogues in the back office.  Ask when the local salesman (or saleswoman) is coming through, and you can ask them about their lines.  If the guy won’t help you do this, boycott the store.

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Its my understanding that all of the St. Croix series use the same graphite.  Thus no difference in performance.

I looked over both the Pro and the Imperial.  About the only differences that I noticed were the blank and the performance.   Both were good rods, but IMHO, the Imperial was much better, and only a little bit more expensive. CQ

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Yes, there was a time long ago when it was possible to fool a trout and enjoy a "quality angling experience" (QAE to those of us in the industry) with a $100 rod, but those days are long behind us. As we approach the turn of a century, studies show that there are very few trout in today’s streams that will engage anglers who use inexpensive rods.

Mr. Spinolio:  I really must disagree with your comments about the price of a rod significantly impacting on an anglers success rate.  With respect to the U.S.A., I’ll bow to your experience; but in my area of Canada, I don’t agree that this correlation applies.  Granted, we don’t get the pressure on our streams that Montana residents do; but I happily take large browns on the most heavily fished river in Ontario with both my Sage graphite, an old Algonquin "feralite" and a cane rod left to me by my father that’s older than Moses. IMHO an angler adapts his skills to his tackle.  It’s no doubt easier to fish a $5000.00 custom made bamboo than an old glass rod…but if you can’t afford the custom, buy the best you can afford and go fishing.  I’ve never known a fish to check the price tag on a rod before inhaling a nymph.    Here’s a suggestion for Derek that may allow him to buy good tackle for a fraction of the cost of new.  Go to your local fly fishing school, (there’s probably one near by…they’re popping up like mushrooms after a spring rain) and ask them if they have any rods for sale.  You’ll be amazed.  Especially if you offer cash and don’t ask for a receipt.  Then you’ll have quality, cheaply, and you can worry about your backcast as opposed to the cost of your rod.   Jim Ward Twin Willow Farm Home of good horses, fine whiskey and great wild trout.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Want I want is simple, an 8.5′ 5wt rod that will cast well enough to keep me happy and won’t fall apart. The St. Croix Pro Graphite rods have gotten very good reviews, I often hear them being called the best value in fly fishing. I think cost $75 or so. St. Croix Imperials and Redington Red Start rods are also supposed to be nice, they cost between $100 and $150. Several people have made this recommendation.  The problem is, there are no fly shops anywhere near me.  The only place in town with fly gear sells G. Loomis rods (at list) to yuppies, and little else (it’s just a sporting goods store).  Anyone know of a good mail order source?  Some place with a friendly return policy? Test cast them all and let me know how it comes out! Can anyone recommend a fly shop (or a good sporting retailer) in Indianapolis or Louisville?  I usually wait until I’m back in Oregon/Idaho visiting family to buy anything of significance (Kaufman’s Streamborne in PDX, and Intermountain Arms in Boise). — Derek R. Larson           Indiana University       Department of History   "Eastward I go by force, but Westward I go free!"  -H. D. Thoreau

There is a recent Orvis shop up nin the Keystone area; nice folks.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …I’m looking for a new rod to replace the old glass Fenwick I’ve fished for 15+ years, but I don’t want to shell out $300.  Or even $200.  Less than $100 would be great… Check out the St. Croix Imperial graphite.   They list for $120, which includes a rod case, and lifetime guarantee. I just bought one (a 9′ 4/5wt); cast it and a Diamondback side by side, and thought the St. Croix was better.  They also make a Pro series, that costs less, but for the performance, the Imperial is a better buy. CQ Its my understanding that all of the St. Croix series use the same graphite.  Thus no difference in performance.  But I agree, they are a great buy. Jim

Hi Jim,      Not quite….the Legend Series St Croix is 42 million mods, while the less expensive      Imperial is 32 million modulus, and is a somewhat slower action rod. I own their      4 piece 5/6 travel rod, and the little 7′ 3 wt, and believe St Croix is one of the best buys      on the market. connection with the company,      just a satisfied customer. Regards,

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Derek, another suggestion:  I just recently bought a 8.5, 5 wt rod from Orvis.   It is part of a relatively new series of less-expensive rods, called the Clearwater series.  Its a good rod, similar to their more expensive rods, and you can definitely mail order it from Orvis. Steve

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…I’m looking for a new rod to replace the old glass Fenwick I’ve fished for 15+ years, but I don’t want to shell out $300.  Or even $200.  Less than $100 would be great… Check out the St. Croix Imperial graphite.   They list for $120, which includes a rod case, and lifetime guarantee. I just bought one (a 9′ 4/5wt); cast it and a Diamondback side by side, and thought the St. Croix was better.  They also make a Pro series, that costs less, but for the performance, the Imperial is a better buy. CQ

Its my understanding that all of the St. Croix series use the same graphite.  Thus no difference in performance.  But I agree, they are a great buy. Jim

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: After reading this group for a couple of years it has become clear that a : lot of people either have much more disposable income than I do, or that : my priorities are skewed somehow.  At any rate, I’m looking for a new rod [snip] Sheesh Derek, you’ve been around here long enough to have heard all this before.  Are you just trying to bait a war? I suggest you try Lamiglass and Reddington.  And I strongly recommend you try and build from a blank.  It’s worth the time and money saved, just like tying. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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…I’m looking for a new rod to replace the old glass Fenwick I’ve fished for 15+ years, but I don’t want to shell out $300.  Or even $200.  Less than $100 would be great… Check out the St. Croix Imperial graphite. They list for $120, which includes a rod case, and lifetime guarantee. I just bought one (a 9′ 4/5wt); cast it and a Diamondback side by side, and thought the St. Croix was better.  They also make a Pro series, that costs less, but for the performance, the Imperial is a better buy. CQ

THIS IS GOOD news to hear, for me. — George Gehrke/President Gehrke’s World’s Best Fly Fishing Products Asotin, WA 99402 509-243-4100  FAX 4644

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Derek I own three Lamiglass rods that have served me well for quite a long time. Cabelas carried them as recently as last year for under $100 but I don’t see them is this year’s catalog. They may still have some if you call them. Some flyshops may have a few left as well. Also, you might consider building your own rod. You can control the parts of it that are most important to you but still keep the cost down. You don’t really need, IMHO, the expensive wrapping platforms etc. Dave

I allways thought the best inexpensive rod was the one you could afford to buy.

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After reading this group for a couple of years it has become clear that a lot of people either have much more disposable income than I do, or that my priorities are skewed somehow.  At any rate, I’m looking for a new rod to replace the old glass Fenwick I’ve fished for 15+ years, -Derek

Hi Derek Most fly shops have rental equipment and often sell that equipment a the end of the season. Check with a few and see if you can’t get a bargain. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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Derek I own three Lamiglass rods that have served me well for quite a long time. Cabelas carried them as recently as last year for under $100 but I don’t see them is this year’s catalog. They may still have some if you call them. Some flyshops may have a few left as well. Also, you might consider building your own rod. You can control the parts of it that are most important to you but still keep the cost down. You don’t really need, IMHO, the expensive wrapping platforms etc. Dave

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Derek, I am in the same boat as you financially. The kids, house, dogs, make it tough to shell out $300 on a rod. I have a post on this board about the Cabela’s Fish Eagle Traditional rod, 8′6" 6wt for $96. We’ll see what the response is. There’s a brand out there called Hi-Tech (HT) that are supposed to be good rods at great prices, but I can’t find any retail outlets that stock them.  

You can afford a dog!?!?!?  You lucky so and so.  Had to eat ours last year!  This year we had to rent a used turkey for christmas!  Bloody luxury. Mike

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Want I want is simple, an 8.5′ 5wt rod that will cast well enough to keep me happy and won’t fall apart.

The St. Croix Pro Graphite rods have gotten very good reviews, I often hear them being called the best value in fly fishing. I think cost $75 or so. St. Croix Imperials and Redington Red Start rods are also supposed to be nice, they cost between $100 and $150. Test cast them all and let me know how it comes out! Tight lines, Tom Chandler Tom Chandler   "When in doubt, have two guys come through the door with guns."                                               –Raymond Chandler

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…I’m looking for a new rod to replace the old glass Fenwick I’ve fished for 15+ years, but I don’t want to shell out $300.  Or even $200.  Less than $100 would be great…

Check out the St. Croix Imperial graphite.   They list for $120, which includes a rod case, and lifetime guarantee. I just bought one (a 9′ 4/5wt); cast it and a Diamondback side by side, and thought the St. Croix was better.  They also make a Pro series, that costs less, but for the performance, the Imperial is a better buy. CQ

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Hi Derek- Have you considered buying a used rod? There are several sites on the internet that have "classified" areas where people sell used stuff at much lower prices than new. The virtual flyshop has one such area, but there are others. I recently bought a used tying vise and sold my old one in this way. You may be able to pick up a $300 rod for $100. Check it out. Good luck! Steve Rosenblum

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Want I want is simple, an 8.5′ 5wt rod that will cast well enough to keep me happy and won’t fall apart……entry-level Orvis outfit (Clearwater 865) looks okay, but is there anything else to compare in the $100 price range?  While home over the holidays I looked at some new rods "made" by an outfit called Northwest-X or somesuch in Lake Oswego, Oregon– they were at GI Joes, about $80 for a 5wt 8.5".  Didn’t cast one though.  Anyone familar with that line? Thanks for any tips– please post responses rather than email so all can comment. -Derek —

Greetings Derek:         I just started flyfishing about a year ago, so take my advice with a grain of salt.  I started out with a 2-piece 5wt, 8.5ft, that I got as a package deal from LL Bean.  I more recently purchased a 4-piece, 4wt, 7.5ft travel rod from them as well.  The 5wt ran me $200, reel and all; the 4wt, $110, reel, case and all.  Bean also sells the rod and reel set they use in teaching their classes, for a reasonable price (in the $100-150 range). They may not be the greatest rods, given other people’s comments at this site, but you can get a medium or fast-ish action rod from them, that are all lifetime guaranteed.  I have really enjoyed my two rods, and they certainly got me out and fishing with a minimum investment.  Hope this helps you out. Dan Johnson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Derek R. Larson           Indiana University       Department of History   "Eastward I go by force, but Westward I go free!"  -H. D. Thoreau

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Check out the Cabela’s catalog, their own are pretty good, as are the St Croix’s and Reddingtons, but in that 8′6" range don’t count out the inexpensive Pfluger (also in the catalog)  Call them if you don’t have the current FF catalog 1/800-237-4444 I am not related in any way to them, but at the low end of the price spectrum, where I started, they have yet to disappoint me.  All of their house brand equip and gear has served me well. jg

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Derek, I am in the same boat as you financially. The kids, house, dogs, make it tough to shell out $300 on a rod. I have a post on this board about the Cabela’s Fish Eagle Traditional rod, 8′6" 6wt for $96. We’ll see what the response is. There’s a brand out there called Hi-Tech (HT) that are supposed to be good rods at great prices, but I can’t find any retail outlets that stock them.  

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Want I want is simple, an 8.5′ 5wt rod that will cast well enough to keep me happy and won’t fall apart.

Under $100, consider the Cortland GRF-1000.  Under $200, consider the Sage Discovery (Model 580 DS).  Doubtless there are other good choices too.  Try to actually cast the rod before buying it, to ensure that you’ll be happy with its performance. Woods Hole, MA   USA

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After reading this group for a couple of years it has become clear that a lot of people either have much more disposable income than I do, or that my priorities are skewed somehow.  At any rate, I’m looking for a new rod to replace the old glass Fenwick I’ve fished for 15+ years, but I don’t want to shell out $300.  Or even $200.  Less than $100 would be great– I don’t get to fish nearly as much in Indiana as I did growing up in Oregon (all my steelhead gear, all my packable trout gear, etc. etc. is still out there collecting dust).   Want I want is simple, an 8.5′ 5wt rod that will cast well enough to keep me happy and won’t fall apart.  My wife has a Cabella’s rod (the Sweetwater?) that was given to her as a gift; it’s not great, but I often use it rather than the 8wt. Fenwick I brought out here with me.  The stores around here either sell junk (Eagle Claw, Pflueger) or G. Loomis, so it may have to be mail order. The entry-level Orvis outfit (Clearwater 865) looks okay, but is there anything else to compare in the $100 price range?  While home over the holidays I looked at some new rods "made" by an outfit called Northwest-X or somesuch in Lake Oswego, Oregon– they were at GI Joes, about $80 for a 5wt 8.5".  Didn’t cast one though.  Anyone familar with that line? Thanks for any tips– please post responses rather than email so all can comment. -Derek — Derek R. Larson           Indiana University       Department of History   "Eastward I go by force, but Westward I go free!"  -H. D. Thoreau

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