Question:

I just want to say thanks to all of the participants in the past weeks issues.  Listening to everyones feelings and knowing that I am not alone in my distraction.  I just need to make something!!! So its out to the shop I go to build some blanks for some new turned bowls. I also have to make a material list for the new shop addition!!!  25 X 11 for a dark humidity controled storage area. While I am changing my focus from last week’s event’s, my outrage and desire to see those responsible fry is still very strong. Well I hear some Black Walnut calling. O, I’m going to go out later and do my part to stimulate the economy. Need a new pair of hip waders. Later Tom in Oregon

Response:

Right there with ya Tom, I made sawdust all day yesterday and didn’t miss that TV one little bit. David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I just want to say thanks to all of the participants in the past weeks issues.  Listening to everyones feelings and knowing that I am not alone in my distraction.  I just need to make something!!! So its out to the shop I go to build some blanks for some new turned bowls. I also have to make a material list for the new shop addition!!!  25 X 11 for a dark humidity controled storage area. While I am changing my focus from last week’s event’s, my outrage and desire to see those responsible fry is still very strong. Well I hear some Black Walnut calling. O, I’m going to go out later and do my part to stimulate the economy. Need a new pair of hip waders. Later Tom in Oregon

Response:

O, I’m going to go out later and do my part to stimulate the economy. Need a new pair of hip waders.

Yep, winter in the Northwest is quickly approaching – btw, maybe you ought to locate the shop in a hill.   — Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 <http://www.flybynightcoppercompany.com <http://www.easystreet.com/~onlnlowe/index.html

Response:

One thing that I like about woodworking (or making anything else for that matter) is that it keeps me away from TV, which is a good thing IMHO (too much biased crap on TV nowadays) — replace n with s to reply — Tai Fu NAR# 76089 L1

Response:

Well Owen, I’m in Aloha and there just ain’t no hills on my land. Looking forward to several days on the wilson river though, hoping for some decent fishing. All the while remembering those who are no longer with us. The bowl I finished yesterday was started and dated 9-11-01. I had just dated it when my wife told me what was happening in New York. Tom in Oregon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – O, I’m going to go out later and do my part to stimulate the economy. Need a new pair of hip waders. Yep, winter in the Northwest is quickly approaching – btw, maybe you ought to locate the shop in a hill.   — Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 <http://www.flybynightcoppercompany.com <http://www.easystreet.com/~onlnlowe/index.html

Response:

I agree Tai. Last week end we did not listen to any broadcast TV. Just watched a bunch of movies.  Partly due to to much information and being overwhelmed by it all, but mainly needing some time to reflect and try to sort out our feelings. Tom in Oregon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One thing that I like about woodworking (or making anything else for that matter) is that it keeps me away from TV, which is a good thing IMHO (too much biased crap on TV nowadays) — replace n with s to reply — Tai Fu NAR# 76089 L1

Response:

Question:

Take it for what you think its worth, and if the shoe fits wear it.shade tree means exactly that. In the south we have another term for it.but I won’t go there! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x<-Thanks for your input, but I don’t think most of us are real concerned with x<-what OSHA thinks.  We are more concerned with using reasonably safe methods x<-to actually get things done.  The tire shop that mounted my new 10 ply tires x<-shortly before the example I cited is forced to use  compressed air in their x<-shop, instantaneously released from a portable container to do the same x<-thing!  It would have been impossible to do in the tight quarters the wheel x<-was in, and the wheel could not be removed.  If a REPUTABLE tire shop made x<-the house call, they would have done the same thing, at least in the real x<-world!  If you haven’t tried it…don’t knock it.  I don’t like the term x<-"Shade tree types" …it suggests inferior! x<-George Willer x<- x<- Really? Most reputable tire shops weather its a  general tires or huge x<- equipment tires usually have the required equipment to do the job. I x<- don’t really think OSHA or their insurance companies would like them x<- using ether or anything else like that for inflating or seating tires x<- on a rim. Backyard or shade tree types may use the flamable gas method x<- not reputable ones. x<- x<- x<- x<- x<- x<- x<-ether is the method used at truck garages. x<- x<- x<- x<— x<- x<-Steve Spence x<- x<-Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: x<- x<-http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm x<- x<- x<- x<-Renewable Energy Pages – http://www.webconx.com x<- x<-Palm Pilot Pages – http://www.webconx.com/palm x<- x<-X10 Home Automation – http://www.webconx.com/x10 x<- x<-(212) 894-3704 x3154 – voicemail/fax x<- x<-We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, x<- x<-we borrow it from our children. x<- x<- Opinions are strictly those of my wife….I have had no input whatsoever. x<- Remove capital A from chipmkr for correct email address x<- Regards x<- Foxeye x<-

Opinions are strictly those of my wife….I have had no input whatsoever. Remove capital A from chipmkr for correct email address Regards Foxeye

Response:

Thanks for your input, but I don’t think most of us are real concerned with what OSHA thinks.  We are more concerned with using reasonably safe methods to actually get things done.  The tire shop that mounted my new 10 ply tires shortly before the example I cited is forced to use  compressed air in their shop, instantaneously released from a portable container to do the same thing!  It would have been impossible to do in the tight quarters the wheel was in, and the wheel could not be removed.  If a REPUTABLE tire shop made the house call, they would have done the same thing, at least in the real world!  If you haven’t tried it…don’t knock it.  I don’t like the term "Shade tree types" …it suggests inferior! George Willer

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Really? Most reputable tire shops weather its a  general tires or huge equipment tires usually have the required equipment to do the job. I don’t really think OSHA or their insurance companies would like them using ether or anything else like that for inflating or seating tires on a rim. Backyard or shade tree types may use the flamable gas method not reputable ones. x<-ether is the method used at truck garages. x<- x<— x<-Steve Spence x<-Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: x<-http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm x<- x<-Renewable Energy Pages – http://www.webconx.com x<-Palm Pilot Pages – http://www.webconx.com/palm x<-X10 Home Automation – http://www.webconx.com/x10 x<-(212) 894-3704 x3154 – voicemail/fax x<-We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, x<-we borrow it from our children. Opinions are strictly those of my wife….I have had no input whatsoever. Remove capital A from chipmkr for correct email address Regards Foxeye

Response:

guess I wasn’t working for reputable types…… — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages – http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages – http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation – http://www.webconx.com/x10 (212) 894-3704 x3154 – voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Really? Most reputable tire shops weather its a  general tires or huge equipment tires usually have the required equipment to do the job. I don’t really think OSHA or their insurance companies would like them using ether or anything else like that for inflating or seating tires on a rim. Backyard or shade tree types may use the flamable gas method not reputable ones. x<-ether is the method used at truck garages. x<- x<— x<-Steve Spence x<-Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: x<-http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm x<- x<-Renewable Energy Pages – http://www.webconx.com x<-Palm Pilot Pages – http://www.webconx.com/palm x<-X10 Home Automation – http://www.webconx.com/x10 x<-(212) 894-3704 x3154 – voicemail/fax x<-We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, x<-we borrow it from our children. Opinions are strictly those of my wife….I have had no input whatsoever. Remove capital A from chipmkr for correct email address Regards Foxeye

Response:

Really? Most reputable tire shops weather its a  general tires or huge equipment tires usually have the required equipment to do the job. I don’t really think OSHA or their insurance companies would like them using ether or anything else like that for inflating or seating tires on a rim. Backyard or shade tree types may use the flamable gas method not reputable ones. x<-ether is the method used at truck garages. x<- x<— x<-Steve Spence x<-Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: x<-http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm x<- x<-Renewable Energy Pages – http://www.webconx.com x<-Palm Pilot Pages – http://www.webconx.com/palm x<-X10 Home Automation – http://www.webconx.com/x10 x<-(212) 894-3704 x3154 – voicemail/fax x<-We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, x<-we borrow it from our children.

Opinions are strictly those of my wife….I have had no input whatsoever. Remove capital A from chipmkr for correct email address Regards Foxeye

Response:

ether is the method used at truck garages. — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages – http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages – http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation – http://www.webconx.com/x10 (212) 894-3704 x3154 – voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The lighter fluid method can be harmful to a tire, as any petroleum product can be hard on the rubber.  A better thing to use, if necessary, IMHO, is ether starting fluid.  It is very effective, and need not be dangerous. It will be most scary to those who haven’t done it, little kids, and old ladies.  The band clamp method works fine on bias tires, but is of little use on radial tires, especially if they are distorted from storage.  I have used the ether method on 10 ply trailer tires that have sat long enough to have taken a permanent set…and with the weight of a dozer on the trailer. Nearly impossible by any other method.  I used it the first time in desperation (the trailer was blocked in and couldn’t be moved), but now I know how well it works, I don’t hesitate.  The one possible drawback…some unburned ether may remain in the tire to be a hazard to the next person to work on the tire, if they don’t know it’s there. On those little cart tires…just re-inflate them.  They’ll re-seat just fine.  No big deal.  Live and learn. George Willer OK, I’m an idiot. In my haste to move the last of my stone dust out of the way of the impending rain, I overloaded my tractor cart.  Nothing serious, but both tires came off the rims and are now flat. There doesn’t seem to be any damage to either tire, but I’m not too sure of how to seat them back on the rims and reinflate them. If I just inflate, will they just "pop" back on? Do I need a technique? Any BTDT’s appreciated. I have seen a very dangerous method to do this in an emergency. Squirt lighter fluid inside, around the rim and light. Very dangerous, but I have seen it work. I’d never do it. The belt method is the one I use, with a high volume compressor. — RANDOM THOUGHT FEED

Question:

Lawrence, Just as long as you don’t wee on anyone.  :-) Ernie "lawrence" wrote Hi I hope you don’t mind sometimes I like to have a wee prattle! <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Regards Lawrence

Response:

Come out to Oregon and we’ll go for summer steelies on the Deschutes. Remember, you don’t have to tie your line to your reel! Then we’ll send you out bonefishing with Randall Kaufmann… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  you could possible do without tying your line to your real as that end of the line rarely sees daylight.

Response:

My fly reel holds about 250 metres/yards of line and backing and when 200 yards gets stripped by a fish hooked on a size 14 treble I start running Of course (Ernie from previous reply) others have been known to wee themselves Lawrence — http://www.f-deans.freeserve.co.uk http://www.flytyer.co.uk off my Lily Pad by writing: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Come out to Oregon and we’ll go for summer steelies on the Deschutes. Remember, you don’t have to tie your line to your reel! Then we’ll send you out bonefishing with Randall Kaufmann…  you could possible do without tying your line to your real as that end of the line rarely sees daylight.

Response:

My post was pretty snide. Wasn’t personal! At least when a fish that big strips your spool, you know it’s moving in the opposite direction!

Response:

Hi I hope you don’t mind sometimes I like to have a wee prattle! When I were a lad I remember fishing one day with a stick a cord and a piece of pin for a hook. I had at least three or four knots in the cord when this old codger said to me.  "Son you’ll never catch a fish with that it’s got too many knots in it" Whats knots got to do with it I replied. He said with a smile  "If you hook a fish, every knot between you and the fish is a weak spot. You have at least three or four weak spots, you can guarantee that it will be easier for the bigger fish to break one of these weak spots" "If you can son aim for one knot between you and the fish" I said which one would that be then? "The one that ties on the hook" he grinned and off he went. His legacy left to me all those years ago is with me to this day. Do not have more weak links between you and the fish than you need. I guess it’s impossible to fish with only one knot, between you and the fish, but you can minimise the effect. My fishing setup has a knot joining my line to my reel and a knot joining my line to my hook these two are a necessity. Well almost you could possible do without tying your line to your real as that end of the line rarely sees daylight. In between that (the weak spots) I have a permanently whipped loop on the end of my fly line. This joins to the leader with another loop and that is it! The only other weak spot I have is that I like to prattle every now and then Regards Lawrence — http://www.f-deans.freeserve.co.uk http://www.flytyer.co.uk

Response:

Question:

Bruce asked: <<Does anyone know where I can get my 8 year old son a set of waders ? Orvis sells ‘em, I think.

Response:

Bruce asked: <<Does anyone know where I can get my 8 year old son a set of waders ? Orvis sells ‘em, I think.

Yep, check out http://www.orvis.com/store/sub_frame.asp?cat_id=25. — Charlie…

Response:

Does anyone know where I can get my 8 year old son a set of waders ?

Cabela’s sells small size neoprenes.   They fit my 9-yr. old pretty well. Joe F.

Response:

Go to Cabelas.  They have an item called "CABELA’S YOUTH STOCKINGFOOT 3MM NEOPRENE WADERS." You will probably want the medium size.  It correlates to a size 10-12 in boys.  Which is normally what an eight year old boy will ware.  They are a good buy at $49.95, item # IK-81-0968. http://www.cabelas.com/texis/scripts/store/+EwwFqcgwx-EPPWKK8xFqqkQqF… PPWKK8EHEqEEmFmRnFqtkQ+vXgAFqtiwmnG5czmwwwwMzmwwwf/process.html?formname=Ca t alogDisplay&submit=displayPOD&PodID=IK209A Vern – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know where I can get my 8 year old son a set of waders ? Thanks in advance Bruce

Response:

try dan bailey’s sale going on. Rat

Response:

Does anyone know where I can get my 8 year old son a set of waders ? Thanks in advance Bruce

Hi Bruce, I would try the Cabelas or Orvis catalog. At our shop, we have carried them off and on for about 20 years with very little sales. Most people, I said most people, not all, don’t want to invest in something that they will grow out of in a year or two. Some other parents might think it is too dangerous to have their children out in moving water with waders on?

Response:

chest straps, waist belt….proper technique and waders can save your life. neoprene types can be a life preserver….read up on tecnique.  or shall I say read on……others explain it better……john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Does anyone know where I can get my 8 year old son a set of waders ? My father bought my sone a set of hip waders from Orvis for my 8 year old & we both took up fly fishing last summer. I’ve had to dump him out (turn upside down to drain water out of boots after he either falls, or goes too deep) EVERY trip except for our last outing in September.  It was a VERY sucessful trip – I caught my first & he didn’t fall in! I’m still have mixed feeling about getting him a full set of waders – although he is very athletic & coordinated I could see him getting into trouble if he could go deeper.  The waders limit his range, but sort of form a safety limit too. OTOH – every time he dumps is a pain. Good luck & post where you find the best deal – I still haven’t made up MY mind of how we will go next year. Mark Klove

Response:

Does anyone know where I can get my 8 year old son a set of waders ?

My father bought my sone a set of hip waders from Orvis for my 8 year old & we both took up fly fishing last summer.   I’ve had to dump him out (turn upside down to drain water out of boots after he either falls, or goes too deep) EVERY trip except for our last outing in September.  It was a VERY sucessful trip – I caught my first & he didn’t fall in! I’m still have mixed feeling about getting him a full set of waders – although he is very athletic & coordinated I could see him getting into trouble if he could go deeper.  The waders limit his range, but sort of form a safety limit too. OTOH – every time he dumps is a pain. Good luck & post where you find the best deal – I still haven’t made up MY mind of how we will go next year. Mark Klove

Response:

Does anyone know where I can get my 8 year old son a set of waders ? Thanks in advance Bruce

Response:

Question:

Well, I got back around 12 Sunday night from fishing in West Yellowstone with Ray Danen and his father Wayne (the people I met here on ROFF that are visiting from NM).  I stayed up until midnight tying flies that I thought would be productive.  I eventually went to bed around 1:30 am and got up at 3 am so I could meet them in West Yellowstone at 6 am.  After getting about 45 minutes away I remembered that I forgot the box of dries that I had tied for them and remembered only the nymphs.   We met in the morning at 6 am in front of one of the fly shops in West Yellowstone.  The air was cool, but the skies were clear and there was just a slight hint of a breeze.  We decided to have a bite first so we went to a cafe and got some breakfast.  They began to tell me how they had fished around Jackson Hole and that the wind had been terrible and conditions were almost unfishable.  I assured them that we would all catch fish today.  Okay, maybe not the smartest thing, but I wanted them to enjoy themselves and the probability for catching fish is pretty good in this area. After breakfast we drove down close to Quake Lake and planned on walking up the Madison close to Hebgen dam from there.  The wind started to pick up before we even saw the water.  As we hiked in we noticed several cars pulled alongside the road.  I know the three of us were a sight, but we couldn’t figure out what they were looking at.  As we walked on I saw a moose and we decided to give it a wide berth.  We eventually reached a little creek that empties into Quake Lake and started fishing our way down to the lake. Wayne is new to fly fishing so I stayed with him and tried to give him some pointers.  We found a nice hole and proceeded to fish it despite the increasing wind.  I was suprised at how fast Wayne picked things up and his eagerness to learn.  His casting was rough, but he could get some distance.  Just had a few minor adjustments that needed to be made and the wind wasn’t helping any. As we fished the hole Wayne seemed to improve with each cast.  Ray walked on ahead and began fishing another nice hole.  We ended up with nothing from either hole so we continued on.  I pretty much stayed with Wayne as he and Ray fished several other holes.  We finally fished our way down to Quake Lake and still hadn’t caught a single fish and we covered some pretty nice water so I was beginning to wonder how the day was going to turn out. We walked along the Lake sharing tidbits of info on the Quake Lake disaster and planned on fishing the mouth of the lake.  I don’t know why, but it is kind of eerie there.  I think it has to do with being at a site knowing that several people died there and are still buried under the rubble.  When we reached the mouth we decided to split up and fish the mouth.  Fish started rising so we began thinking today was going to shape up to be okay after all. We saw several small bugs (I’m not an entimologist so don’t ask) so decided to each try something different.  I tried a small parachute adams, Ray tied on a small BWO and I forget what Wayne tied on.  After several casts we had not even gotten a nudge.  Ray switched to a small PMD and on his first cast landed a small rainbow.  Okay, now we are starting to get somewhere.  At least Ray isn’t going to be skunked today.  I switched flies, switched again, switched yet again.  Guess I’m not going to be so lucky and it doesn’t look like Wayne is either. We moved around and fished the area and I found a group of small fish working an eddy.  There was one or two that looked to be decent size so I cast a small parachute BWO.  A small fish rose and I set the hook.  No fish.  Cast again. Same result.  Cast again.  Same.  After several casts I finally hooked a fish. I landed a beautiful, couldn’t be outdone…….roughly 10" whitefish.  Ah shit, hope nobody saw that.  Sure enough they did.  We continued our way up and found several other pods of rising whiteys. Enter Frosty  the Freaking Snowman.  Clouds began to move in and the temp dropped quite a bit.  The wind began to pick up more and little white flakes of snow started to fall.  Things were starting to turn ugly so we started moving up river faster.  Ray eventually lands a couple more whiteys.  Wayne and I weren’t having much success at all.  I had hooked into 2 fish and lost both while Wayne lost 1. My hope is starting to dwindle, but the best water is yet to come so we decide to just go there.  I fished every hole that normally holds fish with no success.  One more lost fish and that was it.  Ray landed a rainbow that was about 14".  Wayne, nothing. Then  Frosty decides to give us another dose.  It was pretty neat to see.  As the snow increased, the fish began to go nuts.  I casted and casted and casted and could not land one.  Several more missed fish.  Probably just more white fish. We end the day just like that and returned to West Yellowstone for some dinner.  They asked if I wanted to go out again Monday and since I didn’t have to work until 6 pm I thought I could spare a few hours. We met Monday morning and decided to go fish a stretch of the Madison.  It is really just a channel of the Madison, but it is one of my favorite spots.  I have never been skunked here and thought it would restore some faith and heal my wounded soul/ego. Well, when we got there Ray noticed the water was a little off color.  It was a milky green that I had never seen before.  We decided to go on and fish it. The weather was shaping up to be much better than the day before and I was hopeful that we would all catch fish. Since I had to leave early I decided to fish the stretch quickly.  I moved on ahead and went to my first honey hole.  No luck.  Next hole, one bite, next hole no luck, next hole no luck, next hole one bite.  And on and on it went. And to make matters worse the weather began to deteriorate.  Frozen rain began to fall fast and furious as the temperature took another dice. I came across a couple of dead fish and one that was lying belly up taking its last breaths.  I still don’t understand what was happening in the water.  Algae bloom?  I went to my favorite hole on this stretch that has ALWAYS provided for me.  Hell, I even took my wife there and she caught her first fish on a fly rod there.  Tons of fish in this pool.  I couldn’t go wrong here. Well, you can guess what happened.  I hooked into a fish and my damn line broke!  After fishing the hole for another 30 minutes with no luck I decided I had better go check on my companions and see what time it was.  I met up with Ray and Wayne and found out that Ray had caught 3 fish and lost one good one. We talked for awhile and went back up to the vehicles and said our goodbyes and decided that we might try again Friday if they are still around. What a tale of woe!  I’ve never had such bad luck and now think I am in the worst slump of my life.  Can only wonder what the hell they think of my "great places" and "guarantees" now.  I know one thing: I feel like shit and need a beer.  Hell, I couldn’t even come up with a good title for this piece because all the good ones are taken.  "Paradise Lost" is out.  "Tough Trip through Paradise" is out

Question:

   Ok folks, tommorow will be a one day snapshot of flyfishing accross the globe, all to be posted here for the world to enjoy.  I will not be anywhere near a computer until Monday morning, so let’s decide what the header will be for our results so they’re all in one thread.  I know some participants may post over the weekend, so for simplicity’s sake, let’s call it Fishing Day Results.  Yes?  No?    I’ll be heading up to some high desert lakes myself, feeling pretty good about the prospects.  We’ll see on Monday! JE

And for those who can’t fish tomorrow, Sunday the 18th will automatically be deleted and the 17th will carry over for another 24 hours. Big Al

Response:

   Ok folks, tommorow will be a one day snapshot of flyfishing accross the globe, all to be posted here for the world to enjoy.  I will not be anywhere near a computer until Monday morning, so let’s decide what the header will be for our results so they’re all in one thread.  I know some participants may post over the weekend, so for simplicity’s sake, let’s call it Fishing Day Results.  Yes?  No?    I’ll be heading up to some high desert lakes myself, feeling pretty good about the prospects.  We’ll see on Monday! JE

Lucky b—-r, I’ll  be stuck battling a fibreglas hatch on the Credit. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.cgocable.net/~pcharles/index.html

Response:

    Ok folks, tommorow will be a one day snapshot of flyfishing accross the globe, all to be posted here for the world to enjoy.  I will not be anywhere near a computer until Monday morning, so let’s decide what the header will be for our results so they’re all in one thread.  I know some participants may post over the weekend, so for simplicity’s sake, let’s call it Fishing Day Results.  Yes?  No?     I’ll be heading up to some high desert lakes myself, feeling pretty good about the prospects.  We’ll see on Monday! JE

Response:

Question:

I’m planning of visiting Yosemite and Kings Canyon National Parks at the end of September.  Any advice on rivers and fly selection would be appreciated!  I’ll be staying in Three Rivers and Bass Lake.   Thanks Very Much!

Response:

I’m planning of visiting Yosemite and Kings Canyon National Parks at the end of September.  Any advice on rivers and fly selection would be appreciated!  I’ll be staying in Three Rivers and Bass Lake.  

The streams in that end of Yosemite will be too low at the end of Sept. , but it’s about an hour over to the Merced just outside the park at El Portal.  The Merced has been ok in some years and poor in others, but fishes best at this time of year.  Check with Bob at Sierra Anglers in Modesto for an up to date report.  Out of Three Rivers your best bet is the Middle Fk. of the Kaweah above Buckeye Flat campground.  Both rivers are free stone streams with lots of pocket water.  Use Elk Hair Caddis , stimulators or Humpies, the basic western Sierra drill. Good luck. …Dick

Response:

Question:

I am in the market for a new pair of float tube fins to replace the ones I currently use – which are Caddis fins. The new fins I am interested in buying are something called Force Fin float tube fins. They are advertised as being 40 – 60 percent more efficient than the average float tube fins on the market today. Here are some of my questions: 1. Has anyone used Force Fin float tube fins and found them better than the ones they previously used. 2. Does anyone knows how many models they have. 3. Do they (Force Fin) have a web site? Don. "May the fish be with you"

Response:

I am in the market for a new pair of float tube fins to replace the ones I currently use – which are Caddis fins. The new fins I am interested in buying are something called Force Fin float tube fins. They are advertised as being 40 – 60 percent more efficient than the average float tube fins on the market today. Here are some of my questions: 1. Has anyone used Force Fin float tube fins and found them better than the ones they previously used.

Force fins are great if you have to hike in with them.  They are very light, and provide reasonable propulsion.   For most of my tubing, however, I use a longer, stiff scuba fin that gives me more power. 2. Does anyone knows how many models they have.

I think they have two, one fits all sizes, one comes in S, M. L. XL, etc. 3. Do they (Force Fin) have a web site?   Don’t know?

If you decide to buy them, I can put you in touch with someone who sells Force Fin cosmetic blems for a good price compared to full retail. John Woodling Sacramento, CA

Response:

I’ve been using mine for three or four years and have no complaints. I do believe they are a little more powerful than my previous standard fins, and they are a little bit easier to "walk" in. Hope this helps! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am in the market for a new pair of float tube fins to replace the ones I currently use – which are Caddis fins. The new fins I am interested in buying are something called Force Fin float tube fins. They are advertised as being 40 – 60 percent more efficient than the average float tube fins on the market today. Here are some of my questions: 1. Has anyone used Force Fin float tube fins and found them better than the ones they previously used. 2. Does anyone knows how many models they have. 3. Do they (Force Fin) have a web site? Don. "May the fish be with you"

Response:

Personally, if you are driving to the lake, or the walk is short, forget about anything but SCUBA PRO Jet fins.  With these large rubber fins you can tube for hours and hours and never tire.  Your maneuverablilty is unbelievable and best of all you can tube faster than most powerboats out there!!!

Response:

Hi Donald: I don’t know if it really matters, but Force Fins are scuba fins.   They’re not super big hits in the diving community though.  It’s either because they don’t work as well as regular fins or because they look plain weird. Either way, I use regular, Scuba Pro-like fins for both diving and tubing.

<snip The thing is – I don’t want to pay $100+ for a pair of Force Fin fins if it does not perform at least as good as a pair of scuba fins.

<snip

Response:

You may be right, I beginning to think that scuba fins are better than the Caddis fins, Flip fins, Force Fin fins, or any of the short float tube fins on the market today. One of the reasons I wanted to get a new pair of float tube fins is to be able to keep up with my friends who are using scuba type fins to propel themselves. But at the same time, I wanted to be able to wear my wading boots with my fins, something that Force Fin fins will allow me to do. I was also hoping that the Force Fin fins will at least allow me to have the same thrusting power as a good pair of scuba fins. But by some of the responses I have been getting from folks here, it seems that a good pair of scuba fins may be more superior to a pair of Force Fin fins when it comes to propelling one’s float tube on the water. The thing is – I don’t want to pay $100+ for a pair of Force Fin fins if it does not perform at least as good as a pair of scuba fins. On large lakes, one does not want to expend a lot of extra energy to propel a float tube after a 3+ hour hike to get to a high mountain lake. Don. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personally, if you are driving to the lake, or the walk is short, forget about anything but SCUBA PRO Jet fins.  With these large rubber fins you can tube for hours and hours and never tire.  Your maneuverablilty is unbelievable and best of all you can tube faster than most powerboats out there!!!

Response:

Look for fins that: 1- Cover your heel so you don’t chafe holes in your wet suit and don’t fill up easily with mud and sand when slogging around in the shallows. You can also wear booties to protect waders but it’s one more thing to buy, lug around and lose. 2- FLOAT. Diving fins are usually slightly negatively bouyant. Float tube fins do get scrubbed off when doing the heavy weed thing. Use tethers if your fins don’t float. 3- Flex rather easily. Diving fins are propelled by a slightly bent leg with most of the energy arising from the thigh, buttock and lower back. A float tube fin is propelled by the quads and a kick from the foot. Your legs will easily tire and your foot can cramp after heavy duty kicking with a long bladed, stiff dive fin. A flexy fin will sacrifice power up front but you’ll more than make up for it in the long run.    -Ralph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You may be right, I beginning to think that scuba fins are better than the Caddis fins, Flip fins, Force Fin fins, or any of the short float tube fins on the market today. One of the reasons I wanted to get a new pair of float tube fins is to be able to keep up with my friends who are using scuba type fins to propel themselves. But at the same time, I wanted to be able to wear my wading boots with my fins, something that Force Fin fins will allow me to do. I was also hoping that the Force Fin fins will at least allow me to have the same thrusting power as a good pair of scuba fins. But by some of the responses I have been getting from folks here, it seems that a good pair of scuba fins may be more superior to a pair of Force Fin fins when it comes to propelling one’s float tube on the water. The thing is – I don’t want to pay $100+ for a pair of Force Fin fins if it does not perform at least as good as a pair of scuba fins. On large lakes, one does not want to expend a lot of extra energy to propel a float tube after a 3+ hour hike to get to a high mountain lake. Don. Personally, if you are driving to the lake, or the walk is short, forget about anything but SCUBA PRO Jet fins.  With these large rubber fins you can tube for hours and hours and never tire.  Your maneuverablilty is unbelievable and best of all you can tube faster than most powerboats out there!!!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You may be right, I beginning to think that scuba fins are better than the Caddis fins, Flip fins, Force Fin fins, or any of the short float tube fins on the market today. One of the reasons I wanted to get a new pair of float tube fins is to be able to keep up with my friends who are using scuba type fins to propel themselves. But at the same time, I wanted to be able to wear my wading boots with my fins, something that Force Fin fins will allow me to do. I was also hoping that the Force Fin fins will at least allow me to have the same thrusting power as a good pair of scuba fins. But by some of the responses I have been getting from folks here, it seems that a good pair of scuba fins may be more superior to a pair of Force Fin fins when it comes to propelling one’s float tube on the water. The thing is – I don’t want to pay $100+ for a pair of Force Fin fins if it does not perform at least as good as a pair of scuba fins. On large lakes, one does not want to expend a lot of extra energy to propel a float tube after a 3+ hour hike to get to a high mountain lake. Don. Personally, if you are driving to the lake, or the walk is short, forget about anything but SCUBA PRO Jet fins.  With these large rubber fins you can tube for hours and hours and never tire.  Your maneuverablilty is unbelievable and best of all you can tube faster than most powerboats out there!!!

As far as the wading bots go, I use scuba fins and a pair of good ol’ Converse tennies for boots, and they work great.  I can outrace my buddy in his force fins quite handily.  He gets into the tube and the water more easily, however.

Response:

Good points all Ralph, but are you familiar with the "Jet Fin"?  It is quite flexible though it does not cover your heel.  By the way, how’s the situation at Martis?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am in the market for a new pair of float tube fins to replace the ones I currently use – which are Caddis fins. The new fins I am interested in buying are something called Force Fin float tube fins. They are advertised as being 40 – 60 percent more efficient than the average float tube fins on the market today. Here are some of my questions: 1. Has anyone used Force Fin float tube fins and found them better than the ones they previously used. 2. Does anyone knows how many models they have. 3. Do they (Force Fin) have a web site? Don. "May the fish be with you"

I know that Force Fins are very popular in northern California with the float-tubers. They make lots of models, but the fly shops usually carry the original model and the Adjustable. The originals come in sizes small, medium, medium/large, large, extra large and xx-large. The Adjustable come in one size and will fit over a boot or almost anything. The original sells for $85 to $99 and the Adjustable sells for $119 to $135. We sell the Caddis to people that are not traveling great distances in a day of fishing. They don’t float, so get some teethers. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

Response:

0] : I am in the market for a new pair of float tube fins to replace : the ones I currently use – which are Caddis fins. The new fins I : am interested in buying are something called Force Fin float tube : fins. They are advertised as being 40 – 60 percent more : efficient than the average float tube fins on the market today. : : Here are some of my questions: : : 1. Has anyone used Force Fin float tube fins and found them better : than the ones they previously used. : : 2. Does anyone knows how many models they have. : : 3. Do they (Force Fin) have a web site? : : Don. "May the fish be with you" If you would like some entertainment, try posting this question in rec.scuba and follow the resulting thread/holy-war. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (415)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971

Response:

Question:

GRAND CANYON TRIP REPORT (a fictitious account)

 Nicely written/related.  Reading your account makes me yearn for the Canyon.  Hmmmm, wait 17 years, pay $700 plus in fees and risk the no-mercy permit system, or go now, avoid the inane bureaucracy and risk $3000-4000 Happy Boating, Chris Donohue WSU – Pullman, WA "I used up all my sick days, so I’m calling in dead."                                                         – Anonymous

Response:

GRAND CANYON TRIP REPORT (a fictitious account)

Great story;  what an adventure!  But, if the following is true: If one is to plan a clandestined run of the Canyon, best to do it during the off-season when not many people are likely to be encountered.  And of course, don’t get caught.  I hear the fine for running the Canyon without a permit is in the $3000-4000 range!!!   WOWWW!

why not just get a "cancellation permit" and run the river legal? Are there not plenty of open slots off season? — Chris

Response:

GRAND CANYON TRIP REPORT (a fictitious account)

Hummm!!! "Fictitious account"????  Sounds fishy to me.  A few months ago Rocky wants to know from this group how to avoid rangers with radios on the Grand and now this story??!!!?  :-)

Response:

| GRAND CANYON TRIP REPORT (a fictitious account) | | | Hummm!!! "Fictitious account"????  Sounds fishy to me.  A few months ago | Rocky wants to know from this group how to avoid rangers with radios on | the Grand and now this story??!!!?  :-) He was prob’ly just researchin’ the story just like any other fiction writer would. Of course, perhaps there was _other_ research involved in ensuring the story had dramatic impact and audience appeal with a feeling of truth. Let’s see what other tales Rocky comes up with. SYITP (see you in the pool) Ken

Response:

why not just get a "cancellation permit" and run the river legal? Are there not plenty of open slots off season? — Chris

Actually I tried calling over 40 times last fall and didn’t get a cancellation.  They can be had, but it’s getting tougher and tougher to get them.  I don’t think it’s any easier getting cancellations in winter than in other months, because they reserve so few for the off-season anyway. -Rocky

Response:

What would the probablity of success be? ;-

Response:

What would the probablity of success be? ;-

Probability best if you go November or December.  Good if you go January or February, or October.  Next time I hear Joe plans on going in October because there’s no motorized rafts permitted that month and the weather is still pretty warm (highs 80s).   -Rocky

Response:

: why not just get a "cancellation permit" and run the river legal? : Actually I tried calling over 40 times last fall and didn’t get a            ^ : cancellation. : -Rocky Ummm, don’t you mean ‘Joe’ called? Steve — Steve Cramer                     Test Scoring & Reporting Services      Sometimes you never can University of Georgia                    always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593                      least expect the most.

Response:

: why not just get a "cancellation permit" and run the river legal? : Actually I tried calling over 40 times last fall and didn’t get a           ^ : cancellation. : -Rocky Ummm, don’t you mean ‘Joe’ called? Steve —

Oh, NO, Rocky didn’t mean "I" as in the first person.  He meant "I" as in an *initial*.  Another initial that Joe uses is "G". Isn’t that right, Rocky? Jackie                                  _                        _   _        _   _                     \                      / /       / /                     \                        "          "                         `                                        ,sSSs,,                         )w/(       ,sSS..)/{)                       <<..       sSSS_v)/                      )<*      sSS[(_]___         o                                                 o                             \     o      o                                              \  o            o                                  `                                                    o           o               o                                                  o GASP! – A forum for Gulf (of Mexico) Area Sea Paddlers http://www.intelenet.net/clubs/gasp/

Response:

GRAND CANYON TRIP REPORT (a fictitious account)      The Grand Canyon is perhaps the finest river trip in the world.  A minimum of 225 miles must be traversed through the canyon to be able to put-in and take-out on roads.  The Colorado runs through the National Park in this area, and a permit is required.  It is a BIG DEAL.  Only approximately 350 private permits are issued per year.  If you put your name on the waiting list last year, you go behind 6000 other permit seekers.  That translates to 6000/350=17 YEARS before you get your permit!!!  Granted, for each permit you can have 20 people and stay in the canyon 14-30 days, but is there a place for the non-wealthy person that wants to go on a shorter trip, alone, or with only one or two others?  Should he/she just wait 17 years for such a permit, and then put to waste all those people spots and extra time that the permit allows?  For some, this is just too outrageous.  Better to become an outlaw and do the run without a permit.      Such was the attitude of one adventure seeker I know ("Joe").   Sometime in December, when a week could be taken off, the trip was planned.  Carefully -mind you.  Timing is critical.  No motorized craft are permitted in the canyon from September 15-December 15.  One doesn’t want a ranger speeding up behind you and catching you.  Such an event happened to me in Canyonlands National Park in 1994 when I was doing a solo trip from Loma to Hite through Cataract Canyon.  It would be nice to be able to locate rangers in the canyon to avoid any contact.  A CB radio was brought along.  At the South Rim, the rangers would not tell Joe what frequency they used.  All he got out of them was "the radios don’t work down in the canyon."  Perhaps they use special frequencies reserved for law enforcement people.  Hence the CB was not taken on the river.  How about put-ins?  Lees Ferry is the normal spot swarming with rangers, though Joe, having never done the Canyon before, didn’t know what the Lees Ferry area looked like.  Instead, he tried to put in 15 miles upstream at Glen Canyon Dam.  Upon arrival at Glen Canyon Dam, he noticed that there was no road down to the river there, and the walls are nearly vertical.  In the Dam visitor center, a kind woman informed Joe that there was a trail down to the river on river left just below the dam, but it was treacherous and takes about a half hour down.  Joe decided that this wasn’t the best idea, so decided to take his chances at Lees Ferry, perhaps launching at night when nobody could see.  Joy entered Joe’s heart when the lady informed him that they were releasing 13000-19000 cfs from the dam.  He had thought there would only be 8000 cfs in the river (as stated on the Colorado Flow Page).   More water = faster travel and funner rapids!      Off to Lees Ferry he went, arriving in the afternoon about 2 pm.   From the highway, a road several miles long leads down to the river at Lees Ferry.  It seemed terribly easy to get down to the river without anybody spotting him.  He settled on a spot by the Paria Riffle, just downstream of the Paria River, by some mobile home type areas, but right next to the water.  There was a nice large parking area and lots of shrubs/trees that the clandestined activitiy of loading the kayak could be accomplished at.  The normal put-in spot could be viewed about a half mile upstream.  The plan was to get everything out/off of the truck (the kayak as quickly as possible, since such a sight is a dead give-away), load up everything into the kayak, then drive back up to the little town of Marble Canyon and find somebody to drive the truck to near the take-out – Las Vegas.  Joe was thinking of finding a party of two or more going to Las Vegas, and having them leave his truck in the Excaliber (or Luxor) parking lot.  Joe would then return to the boat at dusk and launch.  At the takeout (Temple Bar on Lake Mead), he would get a lift into Las Vegas, drive back and pick up the kayak.  Such was the plan.  As he was loading the kayak, a car drove by and then down to the same spot Joe was at.  Very apprehensive at first, Joe hid everything that might give away his planned activity and approached the vehicle.   The Gods were in Joe’s favor!  The vehicle contained three foreigners – an Aussie, an Englishwoman, and an Israeli all in their 20s-early 30s.   Joe asked, "Sightseeing?" and so began a productive conversation.  The three were staying at the hostel in Page and just mosying around seeing whatever there was to see.  Just PERFECT!  Out of Joe’s mouth came the plan to run the river and the need for someone to drive his truck to Las Vegas.  He offered them $40 if they’d do it.  It turns out the Israeli, named Udi, actually was not with the other two, but was just bumming rides from people going around the country.  He had to get to LA in the next couple weeks to fly home.  After about a half hour of thought, Udi agreed to take the truck.  Joe told Udi he’d give him $60 if he went so far as to leave the truck at the take-out (Temple Bar on Lake Mead) instead of Las Vegas, and this he agreed to.  Joe planned 7 more days on the river, and told Udi, "you must have the truck at Temple Bar by dusk eight days from now."    So Joe took off into the wild, still anxious about a ranger spotting him in the first few miles.        Having launched around 3:30 pm the first day, not much distance could be made.  The days are short in December (10 hours of light), so every daylight hour is precious.  Passing the Navajo Bridge after several miles with no signs of rangers, Joe knew he was out of danger.   It grew dark after he had paddled 8 or 9 miles.  Badger Creek rapid was run in twilight.  The next four miles were quite exciting in the dark. Coming up on Soap Creek he noticed a couple lights.  Afraid it might be the law, he avoided contact with the campers, but paddled just past them as the Soap Creek rapid began, pulling over to the side to camp.   Paddling though a rapid such as Soap Creek was not smart in the dark – espially never having seen it before.  Quickly setting up his tent, he settled in for a fine meal of split-pea soup, bread, and cheese (to be had the next two nights as well), with hot chocolate to top it off.   Laying in the sleeping bag, he quickly fell asleep starting to read (around 8 pm).  In the night he heard what sounded like people walking around his tent.  Waking up at 4 am, he continued to read his recently purchased book by JW Powell, "The Exploration of the Colorado and Its Canyons".  In it he read about Powell’s group travelling through Marble Canyon and then reaching the Grand Canyon.  He also brought along "Cadillac Desert" which contained an abundance of information on the politics of water control in the West.        Before the first sign of light, Joe got up and stalked over to where the other campers were.  They must have hiked in, for there was no raft by the river.  And there was only one tent, so not very many people were there.  He wasn’t worried anymore.  He went back and started on a run up Soap Creek Canyon for almost an hour (getting up the canyon probably  2 miles or so before returning).  The water had dropped during the night – he’d be paddling on 13000 cfs today.  Joe went over to meet the camping couple, who were trying their luck at fishing.  He asked if they’d take some video of him going through Soap Creek Rapid, which they obliged him.  He was off at 9 am.   The boat he paddled was an old fiberglass Phoenix, something of a hybrid sea/whitewater kayak – probably about 90 gallons, 14 ft.  It was banged up from other rivers, and had been patched a year ago.  It leaked horribly, the outfitting was falling out (in particular a loose right hip pad), but it was fast.   Luckily Joe brought a sponge and bilge pump, which he had to use every half hour to remove the inch of water that accumulated on the bottom of the kayak.  Such a large boat is not great for playing, but since Joe wasn’t planning on much of that, the Phoenix was an ideal kayak for the journey.  If he had one, a nice sea kayak would have been preferred.   Paddling most of the time he was on the water, very good time was made on the journey.  The second day he made it to Nankoweap (about 42 miles from Soap Creek), passing House Rock Rapid, Stanton’s Cave, and the beautiful Vasey’s Paradise on the way.  Initially he had trouble finding Stanton’s Cave, looking up a gully that was actually just upstream of it.  Giving up after almost an hour of searching, he continued on paddling, only to spot the cave clearly from the river.  It is fenced off inside to help promote the BLACK Bat to roost in there once more.   In the side canyons above Nankoweap several deer were spotted among the mesquite bushes.  Around mile 40 a group of 5-6 rafts was passed (clearly a private party), though no contact was made.  At Nankoweap the guidebook states there is a long rapid (Grand Canyon class 3), but which is really not more than a class one.  Joe tried to camp at side canyons with fun hikes that he would do in the morning, and also ones with driftwood that he could build a small fire for warmth with.  Such was Nankoweap.  Fires are only permitted in the off-season (October through March), and all traces must be removed.  Joe didn’t take out the ashes (very minor amounts), but usually threw them in the river.  Of course Joe did pack out all solid human waste and trash.      The next morning he rose before dawn and started on the run/hike to see the springs a few miles up the canyon, and also the Indian ruins.   The stream here is perennial, with fresh, clear, cold water running down it.  It all originates up at the springs which are a good hike away.   The water seeps out of the ground in several spots up there, and there are many reeds growing around the springs.  Going fast, running much of

… read more »

Response:

    GRAND CANYON TRIP REPORT (a fictitious account)                     <big ol’ snip         realated by Rocky Contos               Thanks for the great story!  Too bad "Joe" is fictictious, sounds like     a hell of a paddler!

Response:

Question:

Last month someone on this newsgroup posted an inquiry regarding where to find appropriately sized waders for children. Unfortunately, I can’t remember the name/address of the poster. I believe I referred him/her to LL Bean, Cabela, or Damsel Fly. Yesterday I received a catalog from "The Global Flyfisher" in Northbrook, Illinois which lists "Fly Tech Youth Waders" which sound like exactly what this person was looking for. The listing in the catalog: "Finally, Fly Tech brings us an affordable neoprene youth wader! These youth waders have everything adult waders have. Made of 3.5mm Neoprene with a high back and adjustable suspenders. They have a large handwarmer pocket, padded knee pads, Hypalon soles, 3-D rings for accessories. Gravel guards and repair kit included. Brown." Comes in Small, Medium, and Large (they include a sizing chart). Price= $65.00 Phone: 800-457-7026 I have no ties to this company and have not seen the waders myself except in a picture, but I thought if the person was still out there looking for waders for their kid this might be the ticket.

Response:

I’d like to hear a serious discussion of peripheral gear…waders and boots.  Let me start by telling those what I have found out then pose some questions.  Stocking foot waders seem to be more versatile than booted waders i.e. your stocking foots can go into your float tube fins for example and you have your choice of boots, felt sole for mossy bottom cleats for whatever. Neoprenes seem to have no use.  As someone who travels I need all the lightness and space I can get.  Even in the coldest Western stream I am toasty warm in plastic redball waders and sweet pants for insulation.  I use my waders protective socks made of neoprene that are designed to prevent chafing of the lightweight waders and keep gravel out with a cuff INSIDE my waders over my socks.  This keeps my feet warm and prevents me from feeling that bunched up sock and wader feeling that we all hate after walking around with all this gear on.  This negates the protection of the wader but really feels comfortable all day long.  If you have any other tips to share please post them.  Using this system of layering under thin waders I have put my neoprenes away forever.   My questions are do the Gortex fabrics that allow the wader to breath keep you drier inside on a hot day?  Do they really work as advertised?  My biggest problem is that sweaty clammy feeling from wearing a plastic bag all day.  Second, for those of you who have to hike in and pass through water to fish what do you do?  Feltsole boots are crappy hiking boots.  I’m thinking of forgetting the feltsoles and   trying hiking boots in my waders.   Anyone do this?  

Response:

what do you do?  Feltsole boots are crappy hiking boots.  I’m thinking of forgetting the feltsoles and   trying hiking boots in my waders.   Anyone do this?

Hiking boots are crappy wading boots. If you step on a smooth, wet rock with rubber soled boots you might as well be wearing roller skates. Tight Lines Jay Whitworth

Response:

Griz, Regarding you idea about using hiking boots with your waders, while I haven’t done that yet, I plan to. For years I used nothing but a three-ply (canvas, rubber,canvas) pair of hodgman’s hippers. I love them because they’re the toughest thing you can get for the money. However, i find as I stray farther from my home waters that I need chest waders, and I happened upon a going out of business sale and got a pair of neo. for $50. However, because the boots are so expensive and I’m so cheap, I thought about just going to a discount store and buying some fake leather hiking boots. Seems logical. I’ll tell you how they work when I get back from a trip to the west branch of the delaware in New York.  I’m looking forward to a heavy hendrikson hatch. grant

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Griz, Regarding you idea about using hiking boots with your waders, while I haven’t done that yet, I plan to. For years I used nothing but a three-ply (canvas, rubber,canvas) pair of hodgman’s hippers. I love them because they’re the toughest thing you can get for the money. However, i find as I stray farther from my home waters that I need chest waders, and I happened upon a going out of business sale and got a pair of neo. for $50. However, because the boots are so expensive and I’m so cheap, I thought about just going to a discount store and buying some fake leather hiking boots. Seems logical. I’ll tell you how they work when I get back from a trip to the west branch of the delaware in New York.  I’m looking forward to a heavy hendrikson hatch. grant

Hi Grant, For years I used a pair of jungle boots purchased at a surplus store. All I had to do was glue indoor/outdoor carpet to the soles. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response: