Question:

The way a fish takes a nymph has to do with a number of different things including what nymphs the fish are feeding on, the depth they’re feeding

Here’s an example from about two weeks ago.  I was fishing an unweighted wooly bugger.  Bass would not hit a swimming bugger.  All our hits came as we were distracted and had let our flies sink to the bottom.  Then as we lifted our rods to begin the backcast, that’s when the largemouth bass would strike.  I had noticed plenty of drake shucks floating around and when I got home read in Dick Pobst’s Trout Stream Insects (Orvis Streamside Guide form Lyons Press) to imitate the green drake nymph by lifting it from the bottom of slackwater.   Mu

Response:

Mu Young Lee wrote… Here’s an example from about two weeks ago.  I was fishing an unweighted wooly bugger.  Bass would not hit a swimming bugger.  All our hits came as we were distracted and had let our flies sink to the bottom.

Hey, that’s great news because I get easily distracted. Or at least that’s what my wife tells me. She was telling me that just last week while we were outside in the yard… Wait, what was I talking about? –Steve

Response:

One technique I can suggest to you that is just a small variation on the tight line system you’re trying out. No bobber required!! It is an up, down and across presentation. The same or similar terminal rig as you’re using with your tight line system. The difference is that you need to keep an almost tight line, instead of a tight one. It does require quite a bit of mending, line retrieval etc. to keep the flies along the bottom and still have some contact with them.  The takes are usually pretty apparent either visually or by feel. You do need to vary the amount of weight with each new area you fish. I like this technique for big heavy water, especially in water with good stonefly populations.

Sounds similar to what I intend to do on the weekend.  We’ll see what happens. I do too, but over a season, don’t you take more fish on a dry fished drag free? I think the same holds true for nymphs.

Yes, I just like to try different methods. Since you’re a good streamer fisherman and know that technique well, I’m sure you’ll get some fish on nymphs fished in the same manner. Personally, I’d like to watch you fish streamers. I’ve never had the chance to fish with someone or watch someone effectively fish streamers to stream trout. Don’t see many people flinging streamers in the Rockies. Willi

My wife and I are hoping to get to the Grand Canyon in 2 or 3 years, so unless in the meantime the Avs meet the Leafs in the playoffs, we may get our chance then. Peter

Response:

Despite the lack of hookups, one of the outcomes of the test, was the proof that we miss many strikes in typical bobber nymphing.  No way would I have detected some 20+ strikes in that water with a bobber. All true, however my tests are an attempt to challenge the conventional wisdom of nymphing, mainly ’cause it bores me to tears and I’m not very good at it (not necessarily in that order.)

Dead drifting nymphs in all its many variations, is the most effective and consistent way to catch trout in moving water, but it is not much fun if you’re doing it right unless you’re a madly possessed trout hunter. That’s why I do less and less of it, my mad possession is a thing of the distant past. Dead drifting nymphs requires alot of physical work, terminal tackle changing, concentration, etc. etc. etc. and because I do less and less of it, I’m not as good at it as I used to be. One technique I can suggest to you that is just a small variation on the tight line system you’re trying out. No bobber required!! It is an up, down and across presentation. The same or similar terminal rig as you’re using with your tight line system. The difference is that you need to keep an almost tight line, instead of a tight one. It does require quite a bit of mending, line retrieval etc. to keep the flies along the bottom and still have some contact with them.  The takes are usually pretty apparent either visually or by feel. You do need to vary the amount of weight with each new area you fish. I like this technique for big heavy water, especially in water with good stonefly populations. My test of swimming Hendricksons in slow water proved to me that fish also react quickly and aggressively to moving food even under conditions that enable them to get a good look at the imitation.  The taut line was no problem due to the aggressive take.  BTW, I frequently drag or skitter dries and pick up the odd fish, especially when it’s windy.

I do too, but over a season, don’t you take more fish on a dry fished drag free? I think the same holds true for nymphs. My test was conducted in some fairly heavy current and stained water so by rights, the fish should have been taking aggressively but I think the combo of a broadside presentation of a scud hook and taut line screwed me.  (The Hendricksons were mostly taken from behind.) Anyway, I still consider the test partially successful as it taught me a few things. Hoepfully on the weekend I’ll get a chance to try out the wobble nymphs on a typical streamer swing through the same water.  We’ll see what happens.

Since you’re a good streamer fisherman and know that technique well, I’m sure you’ll get some fish on nymphs fished in the same manner. Personally, I’d like to watch you fish streamers. I’ve never had the chance to fish with someone or watch someone effectively fish streamers to stream trout. Don’t see many people flinging streamers in the Rockies. Willi

Response:

As the nymph enters  she clamps down for probably two reasons, one she must be sure it’s  a nymph not debris, plus she has to kill it.  Nymphs can have  pretty good jaws, especially the big ones, and they can give a good nip.

Interesting, never occurred to me…. it does make you wonder what they think of the hook though, when they mouth it… So if I purposely design a mayfly nymph with the same characteristics of weight and eye placement, I should get the same wobble giving a reasonable facsimile of a swimming nymph.

I’ve seen video footage of nymphs tied in this manner moving in the water, and the wobbling action does look impressive.  Another thing you can do is check into the nymph hooks that have split wire near the eye that create a wide flat body.  Example: www.flytying.com/FlyTying/hookbook/xPARTRIDGE_MASTER/partridgeH3S T.html I haven’t tried this yet, but you got me interested again! * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

good post deleted. My experience is that with any tight line technique ( I assume you are talking about tight line technique and not a true dead drift one ), lots of fish are missed. Most of the fish you do hook, generally hook themselves. I also don’t find scud hooks as having the best hooking characteristics. That would explain quite a few misses but not 0 for 20 or 30. I think the main reason for the missed strikes is the presence of the tight line itself. Nymphs do not pull back and if they do, they are rejected quickly. This is ONE of the advantages to fishing a true dead drifted nymph.   The way a fish takes a nymph has to do with a number of different things including what nymphs the fish are feeding on, the depth they’re feeding at etc., but I believe the biggest factor is the speed and type of water. In pockets water and the heavy flows at the heads of pools, the strikes are quick and sharp.  This makes it much easier to fool and hook the fish. Fly selection is usually not very important. These are the same waters that work well with attractor dries. In areas of more sedate current, the nymphs are usually taken in a patient, manner allowing the fish to scrutinize the fly. This can result in more bumps, refusals, rejections, etc. and more missed strikes, very similar to "fussy" fish on a dry. I think the comparison to fishing dries holds true in other ways. Usually dead drifted dries are more effective than flies with drag or motion. The same applies to nymphs. Most nymphs are taken when they are drifting with the current, not when they are swimming. Caddis and stoneflies are the most frequent exceptions because the nymphs can be active swimmers and the adults active on the surface. Although a dead drifted nymph or dry may lack the movement trigger to elicit a strike, it will never be seen as unnatural. Drag or motion on a dry or a nymph will often be seen by the trout as unnatural. Willi

Response:

Although a dead drifted nymph or dry may lack the movement trigger to elicit a strike, it will never be seen as unnatural. Drag or motion on a dry or a nymph will often be seen by the trout as unnatural.

Willi, I agree drag is unnatural, but I don’t think Peter’s example of "wobbling" is unnatural, do you?  He was talking about "swimming" nymphs, but when you think about a flat bodied nymph, I think these do it too.  Is something like a Hare’s Ear really the best imitation?  It’s basically tied "round" – i.e. no matter which angle the trout sees it from, it appears broad, as if it were always seeing the broad, flat side of a natural.  That might be why it works.  But tying it to be shaped like a natural might give it a little wobbling motion.  Seems good to me. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – good post deleted. My experience is that with any tight line technique ( I assume you are talking about tight line technique and not a true dead drift one ), lots of fish are missed. Most of the fish you do hook, generally hook themselves. I also don’t find scud hooks as having the best hooking characteristics. That would explain quite a few misses but not 0 for 20 or 30. I think the main reason for the missed strikes is the presence of the tight line itself. Nymphs do not pull back and if they do, they are rejected quickly. This is ONE of the advantages to fishing a true dead drifted nymph.  

My original post was supposed to have a few sentences that explained that I had built the leader, added weight and the bead head precisely to get as taut a line as possible.  I knew that the taut line contributed to the problem.  I wrote this Friday night at my bro-in-law’s after numerous beers so I plead guilty to TWI.   Despite the lack of hookups, one of the outcomes of the test, was the proof that we miss many strikes in typical bobber nymphing.  No way would I have detected some 20+ strikes in that water with a bobber. The way a fish takes a nymph has to do with a number of different things including what nymphs the fish are feeding on, the depth they’re feeding at etc., but I believe the biggest factor is the speed and type of water. In pockets water and the heavy flows at the heads of pools, the strikes are quick and sharp.  This makes it much easier to fool and hook the fish. Fly selection is usually not very important. These are the same waters that work well with attractor dries. In areas of more sedate current, the nymphs are usually taken in a patient, manner allowing the fish to scrutinize the fly. This can result in more bumps, refusals, rejections, etc. and more missed strikes, very similar to "fussy" fish on a dry.

All true, however my tests are an attempt to challenge the conventional wisdom of nymphing, mainly ’cause it bores me to tears and I’m not very good at it (not necessarily in that order.)  My test of swimming Hendricksons in slow water proved to me that fish also react quickly and aggressively to moving food even under conditions that enable them to get a good look at the imitation.  The taut line was no problem due to the aggressive take.  BTW, I frequently drag or skitter dries and pick up the odd fish, especially when it’s windy. My test was conducted in some fairly heavy current and stained water so by rights, the fish should have been taking aggressively but I think the combo of a broadside presentation of a scud hook and taut line screwed me.  (The Hendricksons were mostly taken from behind.) Anyway, I still consider the test partially successful as it taught me a few things. I think the comparison to fishing dries holds true in other ways. Usually dead drifted dries are more effective than flies with drag or motion. The same applies to nymphs. Most nymphs are taken when they are drifting with the current, not when they are swimming. Caddis and stoneflies are the most frequent exceptions because the nymphs can be active swimmers and the adults active on the surface. Although a dead drifted nymph or dry may lack the movement trigger to elicit a strike, it will never be seen as unnatural. Drag or motion on a dry or a nymph will often be seen by the trout as unnatural. Willi

Hoepfully on the weekend I’ll get a chance to try out the wobble nymphs on a typical streamer swing through the same water.  We’ll see what happens. Peter

Response:

Some time back I wrote a piece about straight-line nymphing and about how I had a phenomenal hit rate and an abysmal hookup rate.  I swear that in one run I must have had something like 20 for 0 or 30 for 0 strikes to hookups.  I had a method that would enable me to detect strikes but I couldn’t hookup worth a damn.  Talk about frustration so I’ve put the method aside.  Two things have occurred since that have set me to thinking about straight-line nymphing again; I read that post Sandy put out about soft-bodied nymphs and my failure with a crayfish design that wobbled like a Red Devil on the retrieve.  These two events have given me a clue into a new type of fishing that could prove very successful. (I hope.)  I’m in the middle of my northern NT trip and with nothing to do on the long trip to Timmins, so I’m doing my best to use the time productively <g to try and figure out why my straight-line nymphing was a failure.  I’m not a biologist and I’ve never talked to one about this so read the following with that proviso.  I’ve been trying to visualize how a trout takes a nymph. A trout resting in her lie doesn’t really have to work hard for dinner.  The whole process must be a relaxed affair compared to a bass chasing and inhaling a minnow.  As a nymph drifts toward the lie, she slides out and slightly opens her mouth.  As the nymph enters she clamps down for probably two reasons, one she must be sure it’s a nymph not debris, plus she has to kill it.  Nymphs can have pretty good jaws, especially the big ones, and they can give a good nip.  So she slides back into her lie with the nymph, chomps it once or twice more, runs it over her tongue as a final check, and only then swallows it.  This is the key to Sandy’s foam nymphs, as a hard nymph will be rejected as phony after a couple of chomps.  It also explains why I couldn’t get hookups.  I was fishing with a tungsten bead head caddis tied on a scud hook.  This hook has a thick wire, large gape and short shank plus the bead and the firmly wound body were rock hard. Straight-line nymphing will present the fly broadside to the trout. So when a trout took it, the hook point probably hit its lower jaw and the fly canted sideways, so when the trout clamped down, the hook point was outside of its mouth.  I’ve seen smallmouth take a slow moving woolly bugger the same way.  Plus, if I delayed the hookset, the trout would reject the hard nymph.  So if I’m to get a nymph to work on a straight-line swing, the point has to get inside the trout’s mouth.  That means a small gape, long shank, thin wire hook.  It would also help if the trout would take it like a streamer – with gusto. Mayfly nymphs come in three varieties, burrowing, clinging, and swimming.  Burrowing nymphs, like Hexes, favour soft, silty, slow moving sections of rivers and only become active in low light, dusk, or at night, consequently they don’t give us much opportunity to exploit except during emergence.  Clinging mayfly nymphs and most stoneflies crawl about rocks and only infrequently move in open water except when migrating to emerge.  When a clinging nymph wants to move and find a new feeding spot, they release their hold on a rock and allow themselves to be swept along in the current, swimming only a little.  These are the most common nymphs that we imitate when we dead drift.  Some species time their moves so that an entire section of a river has all of one species of nymph drifting at about the same time. An effective strategy for reducing casualties to marauding trout. These trout have very flat bodies and strong, thick legs suitable clinging to rocks.  The third type of nymphs however, are excellent swimmers with elegant, long, thin bodies and thin swimming legs. These mayflies swim with an arched back and an undulating side-to-side motion that wriggle nymphs unsuccessfully try to imitate.  Unlike clingers, these nymphs should be moved to be lifelike.  A down-and-across streamer swing with a few small strips should do the job. Recently, I tried swimming Hendrickson nymphs and I was pleasantly surprised with the aggression that trout displayed when taking them. No subtle takes this time and the hookup rate was very high.  So if I combine a good swimming nymph pattern with a swinging presentation, the results should be good.  Back to the crayfish pattern.  I had used a jig hook and had weighted the shank near the gape.  On the retrieve, the combination of the upraised eye and low set weight resulted in the fly flipping over and wobbling like an old Red Devil.  So if I purposely design a mayfly nymph with the same characteristics of weight and eye placement, I should get the same wobble giving a reasonable facsimile of a swimming nymph.  Well, wish me luck with it, as once I’ve got over the worst of the NT install, I’m going to tie up some and swing them through some Grand River runs.

Response:

Question:

Hi Possibly head down to the everglages for a few days. Trying to plan ahead for the hols. hope to hear from someone soon. Neil

Bad idea, mosquito city. go to the west coast orthe keys. Capt. Gary S. Colecchio West Palm Beach "The only people who have any business fishing are  young boys and married men. Everyone else should be  out getting laid." …I said that

Response:

"The only people who have any business fishing are  young boys and married men. Everyone else should be  out getting laid." …I said that

You’ve not met our beloved barrister from Rowan County. A man of many talents he can, and has, combined business, fishing, being married AND getting laid. Or… he used to could. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Head over to the Oak Hill area. Go by way of Merritt Island. Go to Titusville, across the causeway left to Haul Over Canal and just pick a spot somewhere on the route. Check a map of the area, you’ll see. John Popp in grass dead Sanford Fl

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Anyone know of any fly fishing areas around Orlando,  Possibly Head down to the everglages for a few days. Trying to plan ahead for the hols. hope to hear from someone soon. Neil * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free! Check with Rick at The Fly Fisherman on Orange Ave. in Orlando. HTH, R

Response:

Hi Anyone know of any fly fishing areas around Orlando,  Possibly Head down to the everglages for a few days. Trying to plan ahead for the hols. hope to hear from someone soon. Neil * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Check with Rick at The Fly Fisherman on Orange Ave. in Orlando. HTH, R

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "The only people who have any business fishing are  young boys and married men. Everyone else should be  out getting laid." …I said that You’ve not met our beloved barrister from Rowan County. A man of many talents he can, and has, combined business, fishing, being married AND getting laid. Or… he used to could. — Ken Fortenberry

        um, well, of course, all such activities involved the same lady, of course, like when we go on family trips to the smokys and i have to call the office.         ken, will you give me a call tomorrow, please? wayno

Response:

Head over to the Oak Hill area. Go by way of Merritt Island. Go to Titusville, across the causeway left to Haul Over Canal and just pick a spot somewhere on the route. Check a map of the area, you’ll see. John Popp in grass dead Sanford Fl

They also have a location in Titusville, FWIW, but I’ve never been there.  I suspect Rick and the guys there know pretty much the whole area, however. R PS  John, Was over on Cedar Key last week and things where decent over there, plus it’s still cool (-ish, better than Orlando area, anyway), the rates at the inns are low this time of year and the crowds are light – us and a flyfishing! Virginia couple in a big trailered Whaler at the hotel marina.  Even got some of the last Stone claws at Charlie’s in Crystal River – yeee-uuumm!!  Kinda sorry to be back in Texas and hot as hell….<G. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Anyone know of any fly fishing areas around Orlando,  Possibly Head down to the everglages for a few days. Trying to plan ahead for the hols. hope to hear from someone soon. Neil * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free! Check with Rick at The Fly Fisherman on Orange Ave. in Orlando. HTH, R

Response:

Hi Anyone know of any fly fishing areas around Orlando,  Possibly Head down to the everglages for a few days. Trying to plan ahead for the hols. hope to hear from someone soon. Neil * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Question:

Does any one know when the spring releases begin on the San Juan in New Mexico? JK

Response:

From a post on the Compuserve Fly Fishing Forum: This is the latest flow information for the San Juan received yesterday from the Bureau of Reclamation Through March – 500cfs Through April – 690cfs Through May – 1370cfs June through December 500cfs These flow plans are based on the current low snow packs in the higher elevations and are subject to change. Will let you know of any changes. Bill Wayne

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does any one know when the spring releases begin on the San Juan in New Mexico? JK

Response:

<snipped I think in May. bc. — ROFF is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea — massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."

Response:

Question:

Does anyone have info re: the upcoming fly expo in Lisle.  I know that it’s sponsored by the Dupage River Fly Tyers (DRIFT) but am wondering if there will be industry vendors present.  Or, is it a clinic featuring DRIFT members? Thanks, Dave Before you buy.

Response:

All I know is that its at the Hyatt on Jan 15th.  I’m going because there isn’t anything for flyfishermen at the Rosemont fishing show.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone have info re: the upcoming fly expo in Lisle.  I know that it’s sponsored by the Dupage River Fly Tyers (DRIFT) but am wondering if there will be industry vendors present.  Or, is it a clinic featuring DRIFT members? Thanks, Dave Before you buy.

Response:

I heard from two people that last year’s show at Oak Brook was a huge flop. I’m not sure if the Lisle show is replacing the Oak Brook show.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All I know is that its at the Hyatt on Jan 15th.  I’m going because there isn’t anything for flyfishermen at the Rosemont fishing show. Is that the show that they usually have in Oak Brook? Joel Axelrad

Response:

Here’s the url: http://www.steelheadsite.com/mwff_expo.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All I know is that its at the Hyatt on Jan 15th.  I’m going because there isn’t anything for flyfishermen at the Rosemont fishing show. Is that the show that they usually have in Oak Brook? Joel Axelrad

Response:

All I know is that its at the Hyatt on Jan 15th.  I’m going because there isn’t anything for flyfishermen at the Rosemont fishing show.

Is that the show that they usually have in Oak Brook? Joel Axelrad

Response:

Question:

I’m looking for a good paddling shoe with felt soles…so far, I’ve only found one shoe from the NRS, but I don’t like the style or color.  Any other suggestions? Also, I have a pair of Akona Racers that I love dearly (because they fit inside my RPM), but the sole is pretty slick on rocks…I’ve thought about getting one of those do-it-yourself felt sole kits that they sell for wading boots.  Any one with experience with that?

Check out the Chota zip-up with optional felt sole. A much nicer shoe than NRS and I think it’s less expensive. Cascade Outfitters carries them, had some on sale last month for $32.95. Ben

Response:

The Escalante from Adias has a felt and rubber sole.  You can also check wading boots for fly fishing, I got a pair from Cabella’s that I really like.  Also, most fly fishing shops sell replacement soles that you can glue to whatever shoes or sandals you want.  I glued felt to a pair of Alps that the soles were extremely wore, work wonderful. SYOTR John Sims – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m looking for a good paddling shoe with felt soles…so far, I’ve only found one shoe from the NRS, but I don’t like the style or color.  Any other suggestions? Also, I have a pair of Akona Racers that I love dearly (because they fit inside my RPM), but the sole is pretty slick on rocks…I’ve thought about getting one of those do-it-yourself felt sole kits that they sell for wading boots.  Any one with experience with that?

Response:

I’m looking for a good paddling shoe with felt soles…so far, I’ve only found one shoe from the NRS, but I don’t like the style or color.  Any other suggestions? Also, I have a pair of Akona Racers that I love dearly (because they fit inside my RPM), but the sole is pretty slick on rocks…I’ve thought about getting one of those do-it-yourself felt sole kits that they sell for wading boots.  Any one with experience with that?

Response:

Question:

Please, The nickname is the only REQUIRED field (Which can be anything you want).  The rest of the fields are for Identification only and only if you WANT to put them in there. I hate spammers as much as the next guy and report every instance of unsolicited e-mail I receive. Hope this clears this up David. Rob Perry Michigan Ultralight Assoc. Webmaster – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is a great chat room already setup just for ultralight aviators at http://mula.perrydice.com/chat.htm . Rob Perry Michigan Ultralight Assoc. Webmaster Why do you want real names and e-mail addresses? Why not just a nick? Do I smell spam? Regards, DAO

Response:

Message boards are great but, I think a chat room for UL flyers would be a great help, and fun. What do you think? There is a chat room for "Hunting and Fishing" why not UL’s? George

Response:

There is a great chat room already setup just for ultralight aviators at http://mula.perrydice.com/chat.htm . Rob Perry Michigan Ultralight Assoc. Webmaster

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Message boards are great but, I think a chat room for UL flyers would be a great help, and fun. What do you think? There is a chat room for "Hunting and Fishing" why not UL’s? George

Response:

Try this link. It’s Java type chat but there is also access using an IRC chat program. Seems like Wednesday and Thursday evenings are popular. Last time I was there I counted about 10 ultralighters chatting. http://www.mgge-inc.com/fly-ul/ — Brad Blackburn (replace "spur" with "net" to reply) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Message boards are great but, I think a chat room for UL flyers would be a great help, and fun. What do you think? There is a chat room for "Hunting and Fishing" why not UL’s? George

Response:

Only good if your browser is java equipped

Response:

Right!  Sorry, I shoulda mentioned that. Rob Perry Michigan Ultralight Assoc. Webmaster     Only good if your browser is java equipped

Response:

Thanks, I don’t have Java. Maybe I need to upgrade. George

Response:

there is http://ul-flyer.com/ewchat.html walt

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Message boards are great but, I think a chat room for UL flyers would be a great help, and fun. What do you think? There is a chat room for "Hunting and Fishing" why not UL’s? George

Response:

There is a great chat room already setup just for ultralight aviators at http://mula.perrydice.com/chat.htm . Rob Perry Michigan Ultralight Assoc. Webmaster

Why do you want real names and e-mail addresses? Why not just a nick? Do I smell spam? Regards, DAO

Response:

Question:

How does the action of these two rods compare? Any opinions? The Sage sure looks nicer.                                 Bob

Hi Bob For my casting style I prefer the the Sage RPL. To me the Loomis feels a bit non responsive compared to the Sage — the Loomis feels dead and the Sage feels alive putting it another way. I’m sure there are those who disagree but that’s why there are different rod manufacturers. Any way, Take care & … — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products On line catalog – tips & tricks at: http://www.btsflyfishing.com

Response:

How does the action of these two rods compare? Any opinions? The Sage sure looks nicer.                                 Bob

Response:

How does the action of these two rods compare? Any opinions? The Sage sure looks nicer.                            Bob

Hello Bob         I can’t speak for the RPL. I can give you my opinion on the IMX. I had a 10′ IMX made for me recently.  It has action that is a little on the stiff side of medium. IMHO it is the best rod I have ever cast a line with. It takes less wrist effort to cast 50′ of line than it does to stir my coffee in the morning         Did have a chance to try a friends Sage on the weekend. It was not an RPL though. It was nice enough, but I still prefer mine. Take Care and Smash Barbs Joel Sampson Micro Computer Co-ordinator Computer Services Saint Mary’s University 923 Robie Street Halifax, Nova Scotia (p) (902) 420-5880 (f) (902) 496-8103

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you’re looking to buy an IMX be aware that Loomis no longer makes this blank.  It has been replaced by the GL4.  I was told (can anyone out there confirm?) that the reason they ditched the IMX was because of the number of breakages that model line had. One other thing: Sage does offer an unconditional warranty on their rods. Loomis does not.  Someone that I sold a Loomis blank to recently told me it cost him $40 to get the tip section replaced, in addition to the shipping costs.  I’ve broken two Sage rods in the last 3 years, and both times they charged me only for shipping. How does the action of these two rods compare? Any opinions? The Sage sure looks nicer.                               Bob

Hi Bob I blew up three IMX rods, one while casting and two while fighting fish. I don’t know if I was just unlucky or not but was given a Sage to try in that same time frame and have not fished a Loomis since. Take care & … — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products On line catalog – tips & tricks at: http://www.btsflyfishing.com

Response:

If you’re looking to buy an IMX be aware that Loomis no longer makes this blank.  It has been replaced by the GL4.  I was told (can anyone out there confirm?) that the reason they ditched the IMX was because of the number of breakages that model line had. One other thing: Sage does offer an unconditional warranty on their rods. Loomis does not.  Someone that I sold a Loomis blank to recently told me it cost him $40 to get the tip section replaced, in addition to the shipping costs.  I’ve broken two Sage rods in the last 3 years, and both times they charged me only for shipping. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How does the action of these two rods compare? Any opinions? The Sage sure looks nicer.                            Bob

Response:

Easy. One has a lifetime,unconditional warranty, the other spends gazillions on beautiful magazine ads instead.

Response:

  I have several Loomis rods.  My first IMX, a 6# purchased shortly after they were released, broke repeatedly and was replaced without charge other than my shipping it back to them.  It took three trys but has now been solid for three years.   I believe the top of the line is now the GMX (if I have my alphabet straight).  It has a softer tip than the older IMX and is a very sweet rod in the four piece #4 and #6 sizes.   Most Loomis rods have a dull gray finish.  I happen to like the look, but the important question is whether it’s less visable to the trout when waved over the water on a sunny day. — Lloyd Fortney http://www.phy.duke.edu/~fortney/ has links to my garden, flower, flyfishing, and travel JPEG images as well as teaching, research, and stuff like that

Response:

: Easy. One has a lifetime,unconditional warranty, the other spends : gazillions on beautiful magazine ads instead. I don’t know about this… The Sage posters are among the prettiest photos of fly fishing I have seen.  Must cost a pretty big coin. And what’s the real deal on those posters… just about every fly shop I’ve visited in the West claims the owner is the fisherman in the photo on the wall. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

: Easy. One has a lifetime,unconditional warranty, the other spends : gazillions on beautiful magazine ads instead. I don’t know about this… The Sage posters are among the prettiest photos of fly fishing I have seen.  Must cost a pretty big coin.

The Sage ads usually have some real nice photos as do the Winston ads.  Personally, I like the Scott "lifting power" ad with the jet skier and the one with the guy practicing his flycasting from atop a building in Manhatten. John Fereira

Response:

If you’re looking to buy an IMX be aware that Loomis no longer makes this blank.  It has been replaced by the GL4.  I was told (can anyone out there confirm?) that the reason they ditched the IMX was because of the number of breakages that model line had. One other thing: Sage does offer an unconditional warranty on their rods. Loomis does not.  Someone that I sold a Loomis blank to recently told me it cost him $40 to get the tip section replaced, in addition to the shipping costs.  I’ve broken two Sage rods in the last 3 years, and both times they charged me only for shipping.

Catch, How’d you break your Sages? I also had heard of very high breakage rates but that was years ago when several manufacturers, of which Loomis was one, were racing to gain market share by bringing out rods made with new materials. I was under the impression that the bulk of their problems had been solved although over the years I have talked to only one angler astream using Loomis (I live in the east where they have a smaller presence) and he fished it as if it was made of crystal instead of graphite because of a previous fishing breakage and the feeling after talking to Loomis that they would not replace it again. It did not appear to be a very enjoyable fishing experience for him. The original post related to casting rather than durability and from comparative reviews I have seen the Loomis does offer a different casting experience due to its stiffness. I know there are those who "Love my Loomis" or "Wouldn’t trade my Sage for anything" but is there anyone here who has used both and is willing to offer up an opinion, hopefully unbiased with thoughts, on the casting merits of both? I have a pre-new materials war Sage closet rod (or more charitably – a nymphing rod) and finances permitting, am interested in upgrading it to a stream rod but would like to hear about the casting virtues and vices of the newer rods. Thanks Tim

Response:

Among other rods, I own a Loomis 10′ 6wt IMX and a Sage 9′6" RPL 6wt. These are my steelheading rods. The Loomis just happens to fit my casting style better than the Sage, but the Sage (which I built from a blem blank) was needed as a backup since the Loomis was very brittle and I broke it more times than I like to admit.   Except for one time when I broke it by accidentally hitting a branch with the tip while casting and one time catching it in the door to my PU canopy, all the other breaks seemed to be the result of overstressing the rod during casting. Regardless of the reason, which I always disclosed, Loomis always replaced the rod with no questions asked and at no cost – even shipping. The last time it broke,the turn around time was only three days. I think that the last one they sent me is a slightly different composition, not that it casts any differently, but it has endured 2 1/2 years of heavy fishing without breaking ( a new personal record ). Most knowledgeable casters who have watched me cast ( for steelhead on big waters) tell me that my style seems to overstress the rod. Bob Weinberger – La Grande, OR —

Response:

Among other rods, I own a Loomis 10′ 6wt IMX and a Sage 9′6" RPL 6wt. These are my steelheading rods. The Loomis just happens to fit my casting style better than the Sage, but the Sage (which I built from a blem blank) was needed as a backup since the Loomis was very brittle and I broke it more times than I like to admit. Bob Weinberger – La Grande, OR —

I have a 9′6" 6 wgt RPL which has seen better years.  After two sets of guides and reworking of the handle, I decided that it was time to build a new one.  To my great regret, I discovered that they no longer make the 9′6" RPL blank.  The RPL-X is vile.   I gnash my teeth… This is a great steelhead and searun rod.  Good float tubing rod as well. Too bad you can’t get one anymore.

Response:

I have a 3 wt IMX and a 5 wt Sage RPL. Although I grab the Sage first when going to the stream, I use the IMX often enough to like it as a distance casting rod although I use a 4 wt line. It dosen’t have the line speed that the RPL has but it takes very little effort to cast. On a 2+ day trip I take both but I only use the 3 wt for dry fly. If push came to shove, it would be the Sage. — "The true Angler is content to fish alone" Brian Di Carlo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you’re looking to buy an IMX be aware that Loomis no longer makes this blank.  It has been replaced by the GL4.  I was told (can anyone out there confirm?) that the reason they ditched the IMX was because of the number of breakages that model line had. One other thing: Sage does offer an unconditional warranty on their rods. Loomis does not.  Someone that I sold a Loomis blank to recently told me it cost him $40 to get the tip section replaced, in addition to the shipping costs.  I’ve broken two Sage rods in the last 3 years, and both times they charged me only for shipping. Catch, How’d you break your Sages? I also had heard of very high breakage rates but that was years ago when several manufacturers, of which Loomis was one, were racing to gain market share by bringing out rods made with new materials. I was under the impression that the bulk of their problems had been solved although over the years I have talked to only one angler astream using Loomis (I live in the east where they have a smaller presence) and he fished it as if it was made of crystal instead of graphite because of a previous fishing breakage and the feeling after talking to Loomis that they would not replace it again. It did not appear to be a very enjoyable fishing experience for him. The original post related to casting rather than durability and from comparative reviews I have seen the Loomis does offer a different casting experience due to its stiffness. I know there are those who "Love my Loomis" or "Wouldn’t trade my Sage for anything" but is there anyone here who has used both and is willing to offer up an opinion, hopefully unbiased with thoughts, on the casting merits of both? I have a pre-new materials war Sage closet rod (or more charitably – a nymphing rod) and finances permitting, am interested in upgrading it to a stream rod but would like to hear about the casting virtues and vices of the newer rods. Thanks Tim

Response:

I know there are those who "Love my Loomis" or "Wouldn’t trade my Sage for anything" but is there anyone here who has used both and is willing to offer up an opinion, hopefully unbiased with thoughts, on the casting merits of both? I have

I can’t comment on the IMX.  My old beat-up RPL is great for shooting line half way accross a lake, but when it comes to laying down a gentle cast to spooky fish in shallow water, forget it.  The harder I try to be delicate, the harder it slaps the water.  Still, I like the rod. — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

<<The harder I try to be delicate, the harder it slaps the water. The reason it slaps the water is because you are putting the power in too late.  Try pushing your thumb towards something on the far bank when you cast, so that the whole thing turns over before it touches down.  I also suspect you are overpowering the rod.  Get your timing right and you should be able to throw the whole flyline without hearing the rod "swish" at all. Hope this helps. William Daniel

Response:

<<I know there are those who "Love my Loomis" or "Wouldn’t trade my Sage for anything" but is there anyone here who has used both and is willing to offer up an opinion, hopefully unbiased with thoughts, on the casting merits of

both? You’ve picked the 2 best brands, IMO.  The old RPL’s are not as quick as the Loomis IMX, but these are being phased out as the new RPL+ rods come in – these are very fast, if that’s what you are after.  Frankly you pays your money and takes your choice.  I go for the Sages myself. William Daniel

Response:

<<I know there are those who "Love my Loomis" or "Wouldn’t trade my Sage for anything" but is there anyone here who has used both and is willing to offer up an opinion, hopefully unbiased with thoughts, on the casting merits of

both? Perhaps a better route would be for you to go cast the models that are suited for your needs and decide for yourself. I tried a Sage RPL for a 4 when they first came out. Caught a 7-1/2 lb rainbow on a #22 h.e. emerger on it. Sent the rod back because I didn’t care for it’s casting capabilities in close (under 30 ft). Ordered a Scott and have never looked back. Casts way better in close and is just fine for distance. Does that make the Scott better? Of course not. It’s better for me and the way I cast. Suggest you find a shop that carries the rods you’re interested in, describe your needs.  I suspect they will let you try out the rods. If the owner is really knowledgeable, stocks a variety of rods, and is a good listener (Harry Murray of Murray’s Fly Shop in Edinburgh, Va comes to mind.), it will be a short process. As for cost be sensible. If you make the right choice, you’ll be fishing it for many many years. A few bucks more for the rod you like could be well worth it over a decade or two or three. If you make the wrong one, it really doesn’t matter what the rod cost. Good luck. BP

Response:

Question:

That should be a great time to fish the ‘Horn and it’s not that far of a drive from Denver.

Out west, "not that far of a drive" means you can get there in a day. The Bighorn is at least an 8 hour drive from Denver, probably closer to 10.  It’s a fine river, but a 3 day trip would mean 2 long days of driving for a single day of fishing, on a river where wade access is VERY limited. Also, the Bighorn doesn’t have a true "runoff" period, but the flows can and do go up considerably during May and June, making it that much harder to wade. Any decent fly (or tackle) shop in Denver should be able to direct you to something much closer.  There are plenty of lakes and tailwaters a couple hours’ away from Denver that should be fine. CQ

Response:

That should be a great time to fish the ‘Horn and it’s not that far of a drive from Denver. I will be in Denver May 20th for 5 days,  where could I drive to for fishing not blown out by run off.  Any ideas??? You’ll need a very fast car to get you up to Montana and back and to throw in some fishing if ya only have 5 days…nearest fishing in MT would be the Big Horn..and it might not be "blown out"

– Brian D. Nelson, Missoula, Montana Montana Flyfishing and Hunting Outfitter http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm http://www.montana.com/dno/hunt.htm

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: I will be in Denver May 20th for 5 days,  where could I drive to for : fishing not blown out by run off.  Any ideas??? The southern hemisphere? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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: I will be in Denver May 20th for 5 days,  where could I drive to for : fishing not blown out by run off.  Any ideas???

Go to the Platte River Cemetery at Deckers which is Tailwater below the dam.  There is also South Park.  Better you than me.  I hope you have a good time. Mr. G.

Response:

I will be in Denver May 20th for 5 days,  where could I drive to for fishing not blown out by run off.  Any ideas???

Response:

I will be in Denver May 20th for 5 days,  where could I drive to for fishing not blown out by run off.  Any ideas???

You’ll need a very fast car to get you up to Montana and back and to throw in some fishing if ya only have 5 days…nearest fishing in MT would be the Big Horn..and it might not be "blown out"

Response:

Question:

: While considering the many options for 4 pc (or 3 pc) travel rods, I : have generated more questions than answers and would like to survey : those in the group who would share first hand experiences.  The : questions are basically these when considering an all around trout rod : for small to medium western rivers: : : 1  Is there a great advantage to internal ferrrule designs and which : manufacturers offer these designs? : : 2  Which  brand delivers, in your opinion, the best value. : : 3  For budget reasons, I am looking seriously at 5 wts. in the Loomis : GL3, Diamondback, Sage DS Series, and St. Croix. Any good or bad : experiences with these rods? : : 4  What are the preferences among the higher end rods? : : Thanks. : :       IMHO the Loomis GL3, 9 ft., 5 wt., 4 pc. travel rod is the : best value in those you mention. It is without peer as a casting : machine – the reason you use a fly rod in the first and only place. It : is extremely well built, has a life time warranty for defects – and in : my experience – a very liberal interperation of what defect is. The : Sage is a close second in choice – the other two are not worth : considering along side the Loomis and Sage. :       I am a custom rod builder and all of my rods are G. Loomis : IMX, and mostly 4 pc. now. For the high price end you will not go : wrong with a Loomis GL3 or the GL4 coming out to replace the IMX. : Also, if you are looking at high end, check out the Thomas & Thomas : Heritage series designed by Gary Borger. These are very nice casting : tools. I think this, and every other thread like it demonstrates one thing: everybody seems to have a favourite rod that they say is the "best" but there is no consensus overall. It is absolutely pointless to ask which rod is best because everybody will say that the rod they spent the most amount of money on is the best. Basically, I have come to the conclusion that all rods are exactly the same – Like designer jeans, it depends on what label you prefer. I have had a chance to fish with a "cheap" fenwick fiberglas import, a top of the line Sage rod and a T&T which I now own and I have to admit that I was able to cast effectively with all three. I have a friend who has been fishing most of his life (probably more than 20 years) and who swears by a Wal-mart special he bought for $35.00. He outfishes everyone he knows (except his wife ) and has caught everything from pike and atlantic salmon to rainbows in the tiniest streams with overhanging trees,shrubs and other detritus. I feel as if I have been sucked, like many others, into the myth that more expensive is better. All it does is put my income into the pockets of Orvis, Loomis, Sage and T&T executives. It is not the rod that makes the fisherman, it’s the enjoyment of being outdoors in a pristine river doing an activity that we love. Just my two pennies’ worth… Ken

Response:

1  Is there a great advantage to internal ferrrule designs and which manufacturers offer these designs? 2  Which  brand delivers, in your opinion, the best value.

St. Croix 3  For budget reasons, I am looking seriously at 5 wts. in the Loomis GL3, Diamondback, Sage DS Series, and St. Croix. Any good or bad experiences with these rods? 4  What are the preferences among the higher end rods?

Sage, I prefer the look.  Aside from that, Loomis is probably every bit as good if not better than the Sage.  Finally, if I could only have one rod, I’d buy the best of a lesser name vs the cheapest of a top name.   Thanks.

john

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While considering the many options for 4 pc (or 3 pc) travel rods, I have generated more questions than answers and would like to survey those in the group who would share first hand experiences.  The questions are basically these when considering an all around trout rod for small to medium western rivers: 1  Is there a great advantage to internal ferrrule designs and which manufacturers offer these designs? 2  Which  brand delivers, in your opinion, the best value. 3  For budget reasons, I am looking seriously at 5 wts. in the Loomis GL3, Diamondback, Sage DS Series, and St. Croix. Any good or bad experiences with these rods? 4  What are the preferences among the higher end rods? Thanks.

We are selling more multi-piece (3 or 4 piece) rods every year. Nine foot, three piece rods are very hot. Lots of old timers will be shocked at how well they perform. Twenty years ago we all had several 2 piece rods and then one 4 piece we used only for back-packing. Today, my staff and I are using only multi-piece rods. I would cast the rods that you are interested in and find one you like. You might consider the brands with unconditional life-time warranties. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

Response:

I’m a firm believer in travel rods, having owned Sage 3 pce 586 LL, a Sage 3 pce SP 490, a Fisher 6 pce 7-8 wt and a Diawa 5 pce 4-5 wt. Currently, the SP and the Diawa get all the use.  The Diawa and Fisher are spiggot types whereas the Sages use  the ferrule approach.  To be honest, I can’t tell a damned bit of difference when casting, however the ferrule design is reported to be longer lasting as the spiggot fit tends to wear.  That’s what they say, but I’ve seen some old spiggot rods that fit together just fine.  Frankly, ignore the joining method and buy the rod that suits you.  Winston and Hardy uses spiggots for their travel rods and they don’t produce junk for sure. Spend a bit extra if you can and take a look at the Sage LL series. Even though my SP has a greater useable fishing range, the LL has to be the sweetest to cast and fish.  The GL3s are good too.  Try the GL3 9′ 4 wt. as well.  None of what you have mentioned are bad, I.ve casted them all but I have to go back to the LLs.  Its personal preference on my part, but try one.  Try the 3 pce 586.  Sure an SP, GLX, PM10 or T&T Horizon may cast further, but when is the last time you ever casted a fly more than 50′ to catch a ‘bow.  Buy a used one if you have to. Peter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While considering the many options for 4 pc (or 3 pc) travel rods, I have generated more questions than answers and would like to survey those in the group who would share first hand experiences.  The questions are basically these when considering an all around trout rod for small to medium western rivers: 1  Is there a great advantage to internal ferrrule designs and which manufacturers offer these designs? 2  Which  brand delivers, in your opinion, the best value. 3  For budget reasons, I am looking seriously at 5 wts. in the Loomis GL3, Diamondback, Sage DS Series, and St. Croix. Any good or bad experiences with these rods? 4  What are the preferences among the higher end rods? Thanks.

Response:

Dear J., I do not personally own a travel rod, but I was recently in the market for a lightweight flyrod and the St. Croix came highly recommended to me.  I know of some flyfishing crazies around this area who own the St. Croix "Pack Rat" and just love them. Kevin J. Engel

Response:

While considering the many options for 4 pc (or 3 pc) travel rods, I have generated more questions than answers and would like to survey those in the group who would share first hand experiences.  The questions are basically these when considering an all around trout rod for small to medium western rivers: 1  Is there a great advantage to internal ferrrule designs and which manufacturers offer these designs? 2  Which  brand delivers, in your opinion, the best value. 3  For budget reasons, I am looking seriously at 5 wts. in the Loomis GL3, Diamondback, Sage DS Series, and St. Croix. Any good or bad experiences with these rods? 4  What are the preferences among the higher end rods? Thanks.

Response:

While considering the many options for 4 pc (or 3 pc) travel rods, I have generated more questions than answers and would like to survey those in the group who would share first hand experiences.  The questions are basically these when considering an all around trout rod for small to medium western rivers: 2  Which  brand delivers, in your opinion, the best value.

IMHO Sage delivers the best value. I have got a 5 wt 3 pc 9 ft Sage-SP and this rod is perfectly alright for nearly all purposes. If you like smaller streams – take this rod. If you prefer bigger streams – take this rod. It covers all kind of streams because of its soft presentation combined with a lot of power and backbone. Additionally, Sage has a perfect warranty: Once I broke my rod they repaired it free of charge within four weeks and inbetween they lent me the same rod to fish with. Good service. Nothing to complain about. 4  What are the preferences among the higher end rods?

See above. Hope this helped. Good fishing and tight lines. Jan — Jan Geert Meents Georgenstrasse 120                              Fax: +89/278174-57 80798 Muenchen                                Phone: +89/278174-56

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While considering the many options for 4 pc (or 3 pc) travel rods, I have generated more questions than answers and would like to survey those in the group who would share first hand experiences.  The questions are basically these when considering an all around trout rod for small to medium western rivers: 1  Is there a great advantage to internal ferrrule designs and which manufacturers offer these designs? 2  Which  brand delivers, in your opinion, the best value. 3  For budget reasons, I am looking seriously at 5 wts. in the Loomis GL3, Diamondback, Sage DS Series, and St. Croix. Any good or bad experiences with these rods? 4  What are the preferences among the higher end rods? Thanks.

        IMHO the Loomis GL3, 9 ft., 5 wt., 4 pc. travel rod is the best value in those you mention. It is without peer as a casting machine – the reason you use a fly rod in the first and only place. It is extremely well built, has a life time warranty for defects – and in my experience – a very liberal interperation of what defect is. The Sage is a close second in choice – the other two are not worth considering along side the Loomis and Sage.         I am a custom rod builder and all of my rods are G. Loomis IMX, and mostly 4 pc. now. For the high price end you will not go wrong with a Loomis GL3 or the GL4 coming out to replace the IMX. Also, if you are looking at high end, check out the Thomas & Thomas Heritage series designed by Gary Borger. These are very nice casting tools.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : While considering the many options for 4 pc (or 3 pc) travel rods, I : have generated more questions than answers and would like to survey : those in the group who would share first hand experiences.  The : questions are basically these when considering an all around trout rod : for small to medium western rivers: : : 1  Is there a great advantage to internal ferrrule designs and which : manufacturers offer these designs? : : 2  Which  brand delivers, in your opinion, the best value. : : 3  For budget reasons, I am looking seriously at 5 wts. in the Loomis : GL3, Diamondback, Sage DS Series, and St. Croix. Any good or bad : experiences with these rods? : : 4  What are the preferences among the higher end rods? : : Thanks. : :       Hi Bruce,                  I am a Loomis manso my first choice would deffinatleybe

the Loomis GL3.  As for the high end rods I would reccomend the Loomis GLX.  The GLX is a much faster rod than the GL3.  I do not know too much about the Sage rods because I have never owned one nor have I casted one.  I hope this helps.      Fish or die,                 Adam Birkes

Response:

Question:

I would advise against wrapping any guide that’s bigger than you.  -AR

Response:

If you use no color preserver, you take away the option of ever replacing a guide if you need to.  There is no way to remove the wrap without destroying the blank.

Bad advice here!  It is actually quite easy to remove a guide wrapped with non-NCP thread.  Done correctly, there will be no damage to the blank.  Simply cut through the wrap and epoxy with a single edge razor.  Slice along the guide foot to help avoid nicking the blank. Once you get started, simply slip your fingernail under the wrap and it will peel off.  No problem. I think your mass production types are more interested in eliminating a step from the manufacturing process (properly applied and allowed to dry, color preserver would add about 24 hours) than blending the color of the thread into the blank.

Actually, I think most manufacturers use non-NCP because most buyers prefer the look. You are correct however that the wrap will be stronger when the epoxy finish is applied without color preserver.  OTOH, I’ve been told that when properly done, the wrap alone should provide all the strength required to hold the guide on the rod and you should not rely on the finish to make up for a loose wrap.

It is true that you should never rely on the finish to make up for a loose wrap, but then you would always use a finish, so whether the thread wrap alone would be strong enough over time to hold the guide is academic.  Go for the strongest wrap you can and use non-NCP thread except for trim rings. Lyman Lyman G. Hughes Dallas, TX Ennis, MT

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bad advice here!  It is actually quite easy to remove a guide wrapped with non-NCP thread.  Done correctly, there will be no damage to the blank.  Simply cut through the wrap and epoxy with a single edge razor.  Slice along the guide foot to help avoid nicking the blank. Once you get started, simply slip your fingernail under the wrap and it will peel off.  No problem. Actually, I think most manufacturers use non-NCP because most buyers prefer the look. It is true that you should never rely on the finish to make up for a loose wrap, but then you would always use a finish, so whether the thread wrap alone would be strong enough over time to hold the guide is academic.  Go for the strongest wrap you can and use non-NCP thread except for trim rings.

Great post, Lyman. My 15 years of building custom fly rods for myself, others, and commercially confirm everything you’ve said. In my rod repairs, I have never encountered a situation where blank damage has occurred when removing a guide, even on rods that had been wrapped 25 years ago. It just takes care and patience. I use standard thread with no color preservers on 90% of the rods I build. The bottom line is this technique is the best way to obtain a wrap that closely matches the color of the blank. This "stealthiness" has invaded the fly rod industry. Just take a look at Sage’s new SP line or Winston’s IM6 rods and you’ll see why the process looks so good. Ryan

Response:

If you use no color preserver, you take away the option of ever replacing a guide if you need to.  There is no way to remove the wrap without destroying the blank. Bad advice here!  It is actually quite easy to remove a guide wrapped with non-NCP thread.  Done correctly, there will be no damage to the blank.  Simply cut through the wrap and epoxy with a single edge razor.  Slice along the guide foot to help avoid nicking the blank. Once you get started, simply slip your fingernail under the wrap and it will peel off.  No problem.

Are you kidding?  What kind of "epoxy" are you using?  When applied without color preserver the finish soaks through the thread and comes into direct contact with the blank.  I have encountered no epoxy that will "peel off" of anything. Every time I’ve tried what you mention, the thread/finish combination has turned into a solid mass.  I’ve tried exactly what you describe and cut along the guide foot with a razor.  When I pulled off the guide (with much effort) the rest of the wrap/finish stayed right where it was and left a nice solid wrap with a trench gug out where the guide foot had been.

Response:

I used straight epoxy with no color preserve and had my rod spinner break down during the night. I woke up wih big bellies in all my wraps. I just cut them off fairly easily with a rasor and re-wrapped the whole rod. It wasn’t a big project to remove the old wrappings.

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Quoting "DavidC.Benjamin"<dcb from a message in rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    <I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for    <guide wrapping on a rod I am building.  Up to this point    <I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied    <with the results when finished. David – If you use non-NCP thread withoput applying color preserver it will become somewhat transparent when you apply the rod finish.  How transparent will depend on the color thread used.  If you look at some  factory rods its easy to see which brands do not use color preserver as the guidefeet show thru the wraps.  If you use color preserver the non-NCP thread will have a sparkley coloring as opposed to the flatter colors of the NCP thread.  It’s really personal preference which you prefer more. Jim Carlisle

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for guide wrapping on a rod I am building.  Up to this point I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied with the results when finished.   Recently, I bought a Thomas & Thomas Horizon blank and it is a dark blue in color.  I plan to wrap it using a dark blue colored thread (Navy Blue) with light blue and gold highlights.  However, when ordering the threads I found that the Navy Blue (Guderod #066) does not come in NCP.  I am worried that when coated it will become transparent — which I definitely do not want.  Skip Morris’s book says that if you do a trial wrap and soak it with water, you can see what it will look like when coated.  I did so and it was not transparent and I am satisfied with the way it looks and hopefully will look when coated. Question: has anyone out there had any experience with this "problem" and will it really remain non-transparent when finished?  I hope to wrap the rod within the next few days, finish it this weekend and fish it on the 27th or 28th. As you can imagine I hope to get feedback "very" soon. Thanks in advance! Keep your fly dry, David p.s. Lyman, are you out there?

I think many of the major fly rod manufacturers use non-NCP thread with no color preserver. This is not the way they finish those cool convetional salt water sticks. You will get a transparent result with no color preserver on standard thread. This gives them a clean look with the thread blending with the blank and also allows the epoxy to penetrate the thread better to bond with the blank. I have been selling rod building supplies for over 30 years and have heard almost every story imaginable. If someone has better info I will not be shocked as I have been wrong before. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for guide wrapping on a rod I am building.  Up to this point I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied with the results when finished.   Recently, I bought a Thomas & Thomas Horizon blank and it is a dark blue in color.  I plan to wrap it using a dark blue colored thread (Navy Blue) with light blue and gold highlights.  However, when ordering the threads I found that the Navy Blue (Guderod #066) does not come in NCP.  I am worried that when coated it will become transparent — which I definitely do not want.  Skip Morris’s book says that if you do a trial wrap and soak it with water, you can see what it will look like when coated.  I did so and it was not transparent and I am satisfied with the way it looks and hopefully will look when coated. Question: has anyone out there had any experience with this "problem" and will it really remain non-transparent when finished?  I hope to wrap the rod within the next few days, finish it this weekend and fish it on the 27th or 28th. As you can imagine I hope to get feedback "very" soon. Thanks in advance! Keep your fly dry, David p.s. Lyman, are you out there? I think many of the major fly rod manufacturers use non-NCP thread with no color preserver. This is not the way they finish those cool convetional salt water sticks. You will get a transparent result with no color preserver on standard thread. This gives them a clean look with the thread blending with the blank and also allows the epoxy to penetrate the thread better to bond with the blank. I have been selling rod building supplies for over 30 years and have heard almost every story imaginable. If someone has better info I will not be shocked as I have been wrong before. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

But… If you use no color preserver, you take away the option of ever replacing a guide if you need to.  There is no way to remove the wrap without destroying the blank. I think your mass production types are more interested in eliminating a step from the manufacturing process (properly applied and allowed to dry, color preserver would add about 24 hours) than blending the color of the thread into the blank. You are correct however that the wrap will be stronger when the epoxy finish is applied without color preserver.  OTOH, I’ve been told that when properly done, the wrap alone should provide all the strength required to hold the guide on the rod and you should not rely on the finish to make up for a loose wrap.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for guide wrapping on a rod I am building.  Up to this point I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied with the results when finished.   Recently, I bought a Thomas & Thomas Horizon blank and it is a dark blue in color.  I plan to wrap it using a dark blue colored thread (Navy Blue) with light blue and gold highlights.  However, when ordering the threads I found that the Navy Blue (Guderod #066) does not come in NCP.  I am worried that when coated it will become transparent — which I definitely do not want.  Skip Morris’s book says that if you do a trial wrap and soak it with water, you can see what it will look like when coated.  I did so and it was not transparent and I am satisfied with the way it looks and hopefully will look when coated. Question: has anyone out there had any experience with this "problem" and will it really remain non-transparent when finished?  I hope to wrap the rod within the next few days, finish it this weekend and fish it on the 27th or 28th. As you can imagine I hope to get feedback "very" soon. Thanks in advance! Keep your fly dry, David p.s. Lyman, are you out there? I think many of the major fly rod manufacturers use non-NCP thread with no color preserver. This is not the way they finish those cool convetional salt water sticks. You will get a transparent result with no color preserver on standard thread. This gives them a clean look with the thread blending with the blank and also allows the epoxy to penetrate the thread better to bond with the blank. I have been selling rod building supplies for over 30 years and have heard almost every story imaginable. If someone has better info I will not be shocked as I have been wrong before. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

I always use color preservative to provide the ability to replace the guide (it WILL happen) and to seal the underwrap/blank wrap. In addition I find that the application of epoxy is easier (resulting in a much better finish) since I don’t have to hunt for gaps in the thread (the preserver fills it in). Of course as you say there are a million stroies and a million ways …. "The true angler is always content to fish alone" Brian Di Carlo

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Using that dark thread on a similarly-colored blank, you shouldn’t have any trouble.  I build a lot of salt-water "standup" tuna rods on black Seeker blanks, and use medium blue non-NCP A thread for base wraps.  It works fine–as does the even lighter grey "gunmetal" thread I’m now using on a pair of Shakespeare Ugly Sticks.  Just be careful to use enough coats of color preserver, and soak all of the wrap.  I usually use 3 coats half-strength and 2 coats full strength (Clemens "Brilliance" brand) before applying the epoxy coats.  If you see "bleed-through" with the color preserver that doesn’t disappear when the preserver dries, you have a problem.  Redo that wrap.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for guide wrapping on a rod I am building.  Up to this point I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied with the results when finished.   Recently, I bought a Thomas & Thomas Horizon blank and it is a dark blue in color.  I plan to wrap it using a dark blue colored thread (Navy Blue) with light blue and gold highlights.  However, when ordering the threads I found that the Navy Blue (Guderod #066) does not come in NCP.  I am worried that when coated it will become transparent — which I definitely do not want.  Skip Morris’s book says that if you do a trial wrap and soak it with water, you can see what it will look like when coated.  I did so and it was not transparent and I am satisfied with the way it looks and hopefully will look when coated. Question: has anyone out there had any experience with this "problem" and will it really remain non-transparent when finished?  I hope to wrap the rod within the next few days, finish it this weekend and fish it on the 27th or 28th. As you can imagine I hope to get feedback "very" soon. Thanks in advance! Keep your fly dry, David p.s. Lyman, are you out there?

There is a very good chance that the thread will become somewhat transparent when you apply epoxy.  The way to solve this problem is to use colour preserver.  One of the best brands available in my opinion is U40 Color Lock.   I think you will be pleased with regular thread over NCP thread.  This type of thread has stronger highlights when used with color preserver, and I think looks much better than NCP.  As well, an added bonus is that Regular thread is a little stronger than NCP as well it is not as porous, therefore, you will not have the same bubble problems that may occur with NCP. Ian Scott Wishbone Custom Rods http://www.headwaters.com/wishbone

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I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for guide wrapping on a rod I am building.  Up to this point I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied with the results when finished.   Recently, I bought a Thomas & Thomas Horizon blank and it is a dark blue in color.  I plan to wrap it using a dark blue colored thread (Navy Blue) with light blue and gold highlights.  However, when ordering the threads I found that the Navy Blue (Guderod #066) does not come in NCP.  I am worried that when coated it will become transparent — which I definitely do not want.  Skip Morris’s book says that if you do a trial wrap and soak it with water, you can see what it will look like when coated.  I did so and it was not transparent and I am satisfied with the way it looks and hopefully will look when coated. Question: has anyone out there had any experience with this "problem" and will it really remain non-transparent when finished?  I hope to wrap the rod within the next few days, finish it this weekend and fish it on the 27th or 28th. As you can imagine I hope to get feedback "very" soon. Thanks in advance! Keep your fly dry, David p.s. Lyman, are you out there?

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