Question:

Use a Griffitt’s Gnat The best advise I have is do not try to fish a midge hatch with a match in size. It is generally futile. The hook size is impractical for decent hookups and, think about it, the trout are going to pick out your tiny fly from all the mass that have hatched? Good lucK. I suggest you fish a Griffitt’s Gnat instead. Unlike most aquatic insects, the midges are hatching from CLUSTERS of eggs in the meniscus . . . little gooy egg masses. The Griffitts imitates the egg clusters. Thats what the fish are going for because it gives them more food per gulp. The Griffitts is also big enough to carry a decent hook, and to tie on with normal vision. End of advice Dave

Response:

I’m in Colorado and been fly fishing for 15 yrs. Let me say this, we tend to fish the same nymph and vary the color and size…different colored rib and collar. My tip, when fishing in the early A.M. start very small (22-24) on your dropper and swim it just off the bottom. Add only enough weight to keep it low and clean. The colder it is on the river the more slight the touch. Success is tight line to the hook and set on the tiny movement of your indicator.

Response:

: Hello: : This message is pretty similar to one I posted a while ago, but if anyone : has any new or additional comments they’d like to post, I would be most : interested. : Trying to learn a bit more (still) about fishing Midges. Aren’t we all? : Would be interested in opinions relative to to whether : midges are most productive in; : -very early spring : -heat of the summer : -fall Midges are an all year round possibility in Aus. especially in lakes. : Also, large or small flies [generally] best for each of these three seasons? Rarely less than size 18, things like black spiders, griffiths gnat, work for me.  I’d also use some more imitative pupa but prefer the simpler flies (the fish seem to as well).   Tied on a light hook the spiders (also do well as ants ) will float low in the film, a heavier hook gets them down an inch or two.     The Gnat I use mainly, when there are  mating swarms over the water, although it fishes well as a single bug too. : Thanks, : Bob Good Luck. Steve

Response:

We have some really good midge fishing in Nevada on the East Walker River near Bridgeport, which can be fished year round.  Some of our other rivers could have good midge fishiing, but they are closed during the winter. My opinion is that midge fishing is good only when ther are not many large flies around.  Therefore midge fishiing  is usually good in the winter when the mayflies and caddis’s have disappeared, and before the stoneflies and BWO’s come out.  However, if they are the dominant fly at other times, fish will feed on them.  I carry my midge box year round, but don’t use it much in the warmer months. In regards to size, match the natural as closely as possible.  You will probably be to large!  Dry flies should be tried during the warmest part of the day.  My favorite rig is a size18-22 parachute adams as a point fly and a black midge emerger or brassie as a dropper. Good luck

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello: This message is pretty similar to one I posted a while ago, but if anyone has any new or additional comments they’d like to post, I would be most interested. Trying to learn a bit more (still) about fishing Midges. Would be interested in opinions relative to to whether midges are most productive in; -very early spring -heat of the summer -fall Also, large or small flies [generally] best for each of these three seasons? Thanks, Bob

Response:

Hello: This message is pretty similar to one I posted a while ago, but if anyone has any new or additional comments they’d like to post, I would be most interested. Trying to learn a bit more (still) about fishing Midges. Would be interested in opinions relative to to whether midges are most productive in; -very early spring -heat of the summer -fall Also, large or small flies [generally] best for each of these three seasons? Thanks, Bob

Response:

midges are most productive in; -very early spring -heat of the summer -fall

Actually Bob, I have had some of my best days with midges during warm spells in January and February.  The best times will naturally correspond to the hatching regimes if the midges in the streams that you fish. Once the mayfly and caddis hatches are done in the summer, fish will turn there attention to terrestrials and midges, so for a general answer, late summer, fall, winter, and early spring would probably be the best times. The size of flies you use will be keyed to the insect activity in the area that you fish. You really need to put your time in on the streams, and ask questions of the local anglers. You will be surprised how quickly you will learn, and how your successes will increase. Best of luck. George Adams

Response:

Trying to learn a bit more (still) about fishing Midges.

I hate it when I’m put on a hook and thrown in a river.  This midge’ is staying on dry ground.  :) Vern

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Trying to learn a bit more (still) about fishing Midges. Would be interested in opinions relative to to whether midges are most productive in; -very early spring -heat of the summer -fall

There is no straight forward answer to that. On many tailwaters the fish feed heavily on midges year round. In the free stone streams here in Colorado and much of the West, the only hatches still occurring in late Fall, Winter, and early Spring are midges. The surface feeding fish are generally feeding on the emerging insect and sparse flies that float in the film are usually best. Many midges are extremely tiny and although it’s best to match the size, I find that when going below a size 22 hook, hookups are a problem.  If your presentation is good enough, you can get away with using a larger fly. A dead drift presentation is a must. A long light tippet and a downstream presentation helps. When the midges are hatching heavily enough to bring the fish to the surface, you have alot of natural flies to compete with and your presentation must be right on the money because the fish won’t move for your fly.   Midge fishing can be fun but it is very fussy fishing. You are usually targeting a single fish trying to get the perfect presentation and take. Sometimes you’ll get a fish on your first cast but often MANY casts must be made before you have success. Midges will bring up good fish to the surface especially in the Winter when there is no other insect activity. I’ve caught some of my better fish on midges. Also, large or small flies [generally] best for each of these three seasons?

There are lots of exceptions to this but as a general rule, Spring has the hatches of the bigger insects.  As the seasons progress, the insects get smaller in size. Willi

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I have seen midges mostly in early spring and this time of year. Looking in my notebook they seem to like waters around 55*. The lake I fish in the spring has some very large midges (#14) that the trout go bonkers for. When the Mayflies and Caddis start hatching they aren’t as common. Then again after the water temps drop I start to see them again albeit a bit smaller (#18). sf

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello: This message is pretty similar to one I posted a while ago, but if anyone has any new or additional comments they’d like to post, I would be most interested. Trying to learn a bit more (still) about fishing Midges. Would be interested in opinions relative to to whether midges are most productive in; -very early spring -heat of the summer -fall Also, large or small flies [generally] best for each of these three seasons? Thanks, Bob

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello: This message is pretty similar to one I posted a while ago, but if anyone has any new or additional comments they’d like to post, I would be most interested. Trying to learn a bit more (still) about fishing Midges. Would be interested in opinions relative to to whether midges are most productive in; -very early spring -heat of the summer -fall Also, large or small flies [generally] best for each of these three seasons? Thanks, Bob

All others posting a reply assume you are interested in fishing rivers.   On many lakes and reservoirs midge fishing is the best game going from Nov-April, assuming you can find open water.  The lake midges can be very large by river standards, sizes 12-16.  4x tippets will work with the jumbo imitations and are probably necessary since the lakes will give up a lot of 20+ inch fish.  This will be a very lazy style of fishing, seldom to visible fish.  I look for a shoal area in which fish are occasionally seen taking midges on the surface, and just fish the water with a floating line and a very SLOW hand-twist retrieve.

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Question:

Okay gang, what would be on your ideal fly fishing web site?  And what sites come close to your ideal? Jeff

Thosands of people should reveal their honey holes, and no one should be able to access the site but me. — Those who say do not know; those who know do not say. — Lao Tsu, who must have been a fisherman. something bogus to avoid spam)

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Okay gang, what would be on your ideal fly fishing web site?  And what sites come close to your ideal? Jeff

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Okay gang, what would be on your ideal fly fishing web site?  

Tech stuff: 1. Smart technology design, made to maximize usability on different client configurations. No Frames, No Java, No Java script, No Banners, No animated gifs, No excessive graphics, No risky and non fail-gracefully code, No excessive tables, No overdoing lay-out with html – settle for structure. 2. Universal non-plattform specific readability in terms of fonts and colors. 3. Keep it simple! 99 of a hundred trying to be fancy end up looking like complete and utter imbeciles. Let your content speak for it self, don’t fuck it up with bad design decisions. 4. Do not split long pages into several small ones (common sense applies, though). 5. Make it fast and effortless for visitors to figure out the structure of your website, latest updates and contents (search-engine, what’s new-overview, site map). Do not make your site look cool for the uninterested drooling 7-year old who will visit your site once or twice. Make it functional for your frequent visitors. Read this: http://photo.net/wtr/thebook/ And check out http://www.w3.org/ as well. That is the easy part, now the hard stuff. Content guidelines: 1. Only do stuff you or your staff is knowledgeable on. 2. Do things well and complete, or don’t do them at all. You get no extra points for putting it on the web. The Internet is 20 years old and maturing every minute (ROFF excepted of course . Sucky things aren’t cool any longer just because they are on the web, they just suck. 3. Allow feedback and publicly available comments on everything (interactive). Share what you know, and let others share what they know related to your site. 4. Update regularly. Don’t suddenly take a 6 month absence without notice. Be committed, and stay that way. Content: Firstly, take a look at the major search engines, and see what sites are out there. A million or two. Find anything missing? Or a concept that could be substantially improved upon by you? 1. I couldn’t give a rat’s ass about another site set out to help newbies figure the most basic things. There are plenty of those already (I assume). 2. Neither do I pursue sites which focuses on technical fly fishing stuff, like hatches, insects, knots, rods, technique etc. Of course, an extensive site of this would be interesting, and definitively worthy of a bookmark, and be used as a reference. If the site is somewhat less then really really really great (which will require insane amounts of work), it’s not interesting to me at all. Remember, hundreds of books has been written on these subjects by very knowledgeable people. Be better, or be gone. 3. I want personal stuff. I like pictures and I enjoy stories. I want someone who is adept at writing to share his thoughts and experiences with me. I may be a weirdo, but I tremendously enjoy reading other people’s stories from fly fishing outings/trips. I want to know how they feel, what they are thinking, what happens etc, almost like a diary. Be willing to share. You can probably tell me very little about fly fishing, but you can probably tell me very much about yourself as a fly fisherman. Write a book about it, and put the chapters on your website. Offer intelligent and lengthy stuff. Screw those who gets a headache from reading more than a few minutes straight. Write it so good, that non-fly fishers will enjoy it as well. 4. Be humble, and expect nothing in return. 5. Write in Norwegian, so I can fully enjoy the subtle linguistic concept. (ok, this one is rather optional) That’s how the ideal fly fishing web site is to me. Quite easy, actually. Make one, and I’ll visit regularly, if I like your style. — Christian Figenschou – <URL: http://figen.com

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Question:

Can anyone give me some tips about fishing the runoff. The rivers up here (Calgary, Alberta, Canada) are pretty murky and fast from the recent rains and snow melt.  I headed out to the Elbow River at the weekend but got nothing. Tried black/olive wooly buggers (to me they looked just like the rest of the debris floating by), GRHE’s and Blace Dace streamers. Not even a nibble. I tied some white and red crystal streamers tonight and may give them a go. I’m thinking that maybe something white will be more visible through the murk. Any and all advice gratefully recieved KB

Response:

In high murky river waters IMHO the best thing you cano do is keep moving and fish the margins.  The fish do not want to expend more energy than they can get from a meal.  The fast water causes them to expend too much energy so they snuggle up to obtructions – boulders, river bends, undercut banks, sand bars, downed logs.  They usually won’t move far so you have to practically hit them in the nose with the fly.  The good news is stealth is usually not an issue since their ability to perceive in murky water is limited.  I have found had some good success with large terrestrial insect patterns in high murky, summer water. Grasshoppers, beetles, bees, or imitations of large aquatics such as Royal Coachman, Humpies, Goddard Caddis and Elk Hair Caddis, fished dry, have produced some great days when the water seemed just too high, too fast, and too colored. As far as nymphs are concerned, high water dislodges tons of the suckers.  I believe the best patterns to use in these water conditions are suggestive of life, rather than exact imitations.  A furry Hare’s Ear, Beadhead Prince, and Weighted Stonefly are three of my favorites. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone give me some tips about fishing the runoff. The rivers up here (Calgary, Alberta, Canada) are pretty murky and fast from the recent rains and snow melt.  I headed out to the Elbow River at the weekend but got nothing. Tried black/olive wooly buggers (to me they looked just like the rest of the debris floating by), GRHE’s and Blace Dace streamers. Not even a nibble. I tied some white and red crystal streamers tonight and may give them a go. I’m thinking that maybe something white will be more visible through the murk. Any and all advice gratefully recieved KB

Response:

Question:

Here in Colorado, the fish are skitish enough, without a 110 pound dog swimming overhead.  Over the past weekend, I brought him fishing again.  However, this time I fastened his leash to my waders.  This wasn’t a problem because the water is very low.   This method seemed to work really well.  Any training insight, comments, or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

I would think catching him on a bad backcast would be risky.   As to suggestions, my own german shepherd has gotten a bit old.  I find that  after a good hour or so of splashing and playing she settles down and prefers  to watch me from the bank.  So I spend an hour playing with the dog and hiking  upstream before I start fishing.

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I have two dogs who love to swim after me on a quiet lake if I let them.   When the fishing is bad and can’t get any worse, sometimes I call them out and let them troll beside my canoe.  However, I don’t encourage this if there are other fisherman in the lake.  When I fish on a river, I just leave them in my van.  They are quite happy hanging out for a couple of hours at a time.  Less stress worring about pissing off other guys.   Besides nothing spooks fish more than a couple of splashing muts swiming around, or having them get caught in the current. C. Carefoot – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would like to start bringing my black labrador fly fishing.  I was curious if anyone has any training suggestions, which may help.  Over the summer, I attempted to bring him fishing.  Being a water dog, I couldn’t keep him out of the deepest holes.  Here in Colorado, the fish are skitish enough, without a 110 pound dog swimming overhead.  Over the past weekend,I brought him fishing again.  However, this time I fastened his leash to my waders.  This wasn’t a problem because the water is very low.   This method seemed to work really well.  Any training insight, comments, or suggestions are greatly appreciated. -Josh josh ( a t ) bankersfyi ( d o t ) com

Response:

Me thinks too many folks are buying into this dog/flyfishing c**p you see on the cover of catalogs, books, calendars, etc..  I like the one photo on my TU calendar where this gorgeous lady flyfisher, all decked in Orvis gear, in her twenties, shows a 26" trout to her black lab.  It’s titled "introducing one love to another". Now here’s reality: if there is a woman, she looks like a Jenny-Craig dropout.  The trout she holds is a SNIT (stocked nine-inch trout).  She wears an "Uncle Buck’s Salmon Eggs" t-shirt covered with fish slime, probably from the stringer of fish wrapped around her neck.  The dog is drowning because he can’t swim, and drooling more water than there is in the stream.  The title would be "Rover finally discovers what fresh fish smells like". Voice of experience – tried training Boomer my black lab to go flyfishing. He ran everybody off the stream.  I had to leave before the sheriff arrived. Fishing is for my enjoyment, not Boomer’s.  Let him get his own rod & Jeep.

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This is gonna be another Swayback Story. One of the members of that fine club has a Newfoundland Duck Tolling Retriever bitch.  Nice dog.  Takes her fishing with him often.   Well, one Saturday evening this guy is fishing the water by my house with the Noof.  He get’s into a fish – maybe 17-18".  He gets the fish into netting range, and damned if the dog doesn’t pounce on the poor thing, grab it in it’s mouth, and take it to shore.  Then the noof sets the fish on the gravel and sits there proud as punch.  Believe it or not, the fish was released, relatively unharmed. As I understand these dogs they’re used as duck dogs in Canada.  They have very strong retrieval instincts it would appear.  But I never thought they were that strong. Personally, I find fishing with a dog, especially a water dog to be very annoying. They can go all over the place, and mess up everything.  Maybe Josh’s dog is a better dog than that – I sure hope so anyway. I would like to start bringing my black labrador fly fishing.  I was curious if anyone has any training suggestions, which may help.  Over the summer, I attempted to bring him fishing.  Being a water dog, I couldn’t keep him out of the deepest holes.  Here in Colorado, the fish are skitish enough, without a 110 pound dog swimming overhead.  Over the past weekend, I brought him fishing again.  However, this time I fastened his leash to my waders.  This wasn’t a problem because the water is very low.   This method seemed to work really well.  Any training insight, comments, or suggestions are greatly appreciated. -Josh josh ( a t ) bankersfyi ( d o t ) com

– </chaz Chaz Clover The Paved Earth Society http://www.rmi.net/~clover/pave_the_earth   "Why Not Just Get On With It?"

Response:

Fishing is for my enjoyment, not Boomer’s.  Let him get his own rod & Jeep.

Sorry, but an enjoyable day on the river *always* includes the dog ! My mutt patiently sits on the bank until a trout is hooked, and then dives in to attempt a retrieve. Lots of excitement – and all he asks for is one quick lick of the fish. So what if he ruins that pool, there’s plenty more within a short walk, and more trout than I could catch in a lifetime. It’s seldom I see another fisherman on my stretch of river, and my buddies get a bigger kick out of watching the dog than playing the numbers game in fish caught in a day. Hunting season’s too short, and time too precious to spend outdoors without my pooch! Andrew Banff Alberta

Response:

I would like to start bringing my black labrador fly fishing.  I was curious if anyone has any training suggestions, which may help.  Over the summer, I attempted to bring him fishing.  Being a water dog, I couldn’t keep him out of the deepest holes.  Here in Colorado, the fish are skitish enough, without a 110 pound dog swimming overhead.  Over the past weekend, I brought him fishing again.  However, this time I fastened his leash to my waders.  This wasn’t a problem because the water is very low.   This method seemed to work really well.  Any training insight, comments, or suggestions are greatly appreciated. -Josh josh ( a t ) bankersfyi ( d o t ) com

Response:

I would like to start bringing my black labrador fly fishing.  I was curious if anyone has any training suggestions, which may help.  Over the summer, I attempted to bring him fishing.  Being a water dog, I couldn’t keep him out of the deepest holes.  Here in Colorado, the fish are skitish enough, without a 110 pound dog swimming overhead.  Over the past weekend, I brought him fishing again.  However, this time I fastened his leash to my waders.  This wasn’t a problem because the water is very low.   This method seemed to work really well.  Any training insight, comments, or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

My yellow lab started obedience training at 16 weeks and was fish_able when she turned 5. She knew all the commands and would obey 99% of the time, but you know labs & water :- At 5 I began taking her to the beach fishing on off tides so she wouldn’t bother anyone (she’s very friendly), or when I’d fish more isolated spots in the marshes and rocks. She did fine, I let her roam within reason, she seems to know her limits and is pretty unobtrusive. At 6 I began taking her to a local river that ran behind a barrier beach. I met a friend there and we decided to wade out to a nice looking flat. Gave Cass the ‘Stay’ command and she sat in a spot in the marsh for the next hour, watching us, not moving until I released her, then she went and chased seagulls for a while, but never came near the water we were fishing. My friend, who used to have a yellow lab too, was amazed. I can let her roam like this because she’s very good with hand signals. After I finish fishing I always do the tennis ball thing with her, so she knows that her patience will be rewarded, that seems to help a lot. So now I have a great fishing buddy, but it did take a lot of time and training to get her there. The point where she really started obeying was when I released a striper into a very strong rip and she dove in to retrieve it, she got one hell of a ride out to sea until she got loose. She never did that again, though I don’t necessarily recommend doing this on purpose :-

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would like to start bringing my black labrador fly fishing.  I was curious if anyone has any training suggestions, which may help.  Over the summer, I attempted to bring him fishing.  Being a water dog, I couldn’t keep him out of the deepest holes.  Here in Colorado, the fish are skitish enough, without a 110 pound dog swimming overhead.  Over the past weekend, I brought him fishing again.  However, this time I fastened his leash to my waders.  This wasn’t a problem because the water is very low.   This method seemed to work really well.  Any training insight, comments, or suggestions are greatly appreciated. -Josh josh ( a t ) bankersfyi ( d o t ) com

my dog is a horrible fishing dog, so she spends my fishing time drooling on my couch.  if you really want to fish with your pooch, i would recommend just spending lots of time with it on and near rivers.  go to areas where the fishing is marginal, so you don’t piss other anglers off while training your dog.  practice your casting while working (it might be tough to concentrate on the fish and your dog) on keeping your dog out of the water (if you own a breed that loves the water, it might be tough to keep it out of the water). remember that non-dog owners can be wary of large breed dogs and that a dog along the river isn’t always welcome by other anglers especially if dog owners don’t pick up after their animals.   good luck and good training, chris

Response:

I would like to start bringing my black labrador fly fishing.  I was curious if anyone has any training suggestions, which may help.  Over the summer, I attempted to bring him fishing.  Being a water dog, I couldn’t keep him out of the deepest holes.  Here in Colorado, the fish are skitish enough, without a 110 pound dog swimming overhead.  Over the past weekend, I brought him fishing again.  However, this time I fastened his leash to my waders.  This wasn’t a problem because the water is very low.   This method seemed to work really well.  Any training insight, comments, or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

I don’t have any insight other than once you find out, I’d like to know. I took my lab fishing this past summer and of course every time I casted, he’d jump in after the fly. I tried tying his leash to a willow bush – he bent the willow over so far that he made it into the water again. When I finally got him tied up good, he’d bark every time I casted – not a good thing when you start fishing 5am and there are other people around trying to sleep. Rich

Response:

I’m a dog trainer by profession & there is no easy, magic way to make a "fishing" dog.  An unruly dog has no place on the stream. The first place to start is with basic obedience so the dog learns the commands of heel, sit, down, stay & come as true commands not just requests that the dog follows when it wants to.  This means alot of work at home before ever taking the dog to a stream with you. However, much of it has to do with basic temperament & personality.  I’ve bred, trained, and owned alot of dogs over the years & I’ve only had two that were what I would call true "fishing" dogs.  One was a Golden & the other a Irish Setter.  They would wadeswim at my side while I was fishing or I could put them in a stay on the bank where they would remain no matter what else was going on. The unique characteristic these two had was that they were into fishing. They could stay with me all day without getting distracted the other exciting things that happen such as rabbits, birds, other anglers etc.  They would intensely watch & get very excited when I hooked a fish.  I would land it, show it to them & let them see it swim away. Great companions.  The Irish, though, would get impatient & would bark at me if I hadn’t caught a fish soon enough for her! I don’t take untrained dogs with me fishing. Training has to be done at stream side.  fishing.  This takes time, patience & discipline. It means working with your dog without fishing. Dogs not under strict control should not be off leash and have no business stream side. I don’t have a "fishing" dog, but I do have a young one that shows some real promise. Willi

Response:

Question:

I have primarily used monofilament of 10lb test or smaller on my rods. I have often had lures shoot back at me when attempting to free snagged lures.  My question is if I were to use heavy mono or superlines such as spiderwire, how do I keep lures from zinging back at me at ungodly speeds?  How much should you tug on a lure before you decide to cut the line?  Are there techniques of line-tugging that direct lure-flight away from anglers?  When bank fishing, I sometimes position myself behind a tree, but sometimes there is nothing to hide behind.   I hear a lot about superlines paying for themselves by saving lures, but I think it would be rather difficult (not to mention unsafe) to attempt to straighten out a heavy 4/0 worm hook (I COULD understand light-wire hooks). Anyone out there with similar fears of flying worm weights and treble hooks?  How do you handle such things? Scott

Response:

Actually Scott, when using braided or fused super lines, the lures won’t be zapping back at you at light speed after freeing a snag. The only reason your lures are currently flying back at you is because in the process of pulling a snagged lure free, you are actually stretching the mono like a huge rubber band. So when the lure pulls free of the snag, the mono contracts and ……zzing… But with no stretch super lines…this problem won’t exist. If you pull free of the snag, the lure just would probably move a foot or two only. Either that or you bust the line. Linus

Response:

Scott, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have primarily used monofilament of 10lb test or smaller on my rods. I have often had lures shoot back at me when attempting to free snagged lures.  My question is if I were to use heavy mono or superlines such as spiderwire, how do I keep lures from zinging back at me at ungodly speeds?  How much should you tug on a lure before you decide to cut the line?  Are there techniques of line-tugging that direct lure-flight away from anglers?  When bank fishing, I sometimes position myself behind a tree, but sometimes there is nothing to hide behind. I hear a lot about superlines paying for themselves by saving lures, but I think it would be rather difficult (not to mention unsafe) to attempt to straighten out a heavy 4/0 worm hook (I COULD understand light-wire hooks). Anyone out there with similar fears of flying worm weights and treble hooks?  How do you handle such things?

The branded lines don’t stretch like mono, so they don’t fly back at you when they break loose.  When you pull on  mono, it stretches like a rubber band.  When it breaks free, it’s time to duck.  When I break a mono line, I look the other way and keep my head down. Richard

Response:

Question:

: :Is it really possible-as our friend with his first boat seems to think it :is-for  any  GPS to "steer" a boat running WOT around all these hazards?   no, the accuracy is only good to 50ft or so under ideal conditions. — george jefferson

Response:

| Now, the question: | | Is it really possible-as our friend with his first boat seems to think it | is-for  any  GPS to "steer" a boat running WOT around all these hazards?   | Seems to me it would take a complete map of the bottom and more waypoints | than any  device could handle. | | Peggie Hall/Peal Products | Specializing in marine toilet systems since 1987 | (And should prob’ly stick to giving plumbing advice only!) | | Peggie, If your boating friends make such wide-sweeping assumptions that you do, then I can understand why they would run aground in the middle of a channel! Actually, many ocean-going boats have much more advanced guidance and navigation systems than most of the lake-trailers that you see on Lake Lanier. Auto-pilots and GPS combined are used by many fishing and scuba outfits to drop almost dead-on a target with minimal search. I’ve seen it done many times. Please read what I have written again. If I was looking for a target, why would I run WOT? However, if I was heading for a fishing spot on, say, Lake Hiwassee, and I knew the GPS co-ordinates, then why do you fail to see the value in inland lake GPS? Actually, there are GPS maps of many lakes available, with features pre-programmed. Plug and play, as it were. I doubt that any electronics, whether it be GPS or marine radios, can replace the instrument between your ears. Now, you want to talk useless. With a toilet at every ramp, who needs a marine toilet?

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I doubt that any electronics, whether it be GPS or marine radios, can replace the instrument between your ears.

Absolutely true. You mentioned going fast, night running, unfamiliarity with powerboats, unfamiliarity with the lake (which has a nasty habit of changing week to week)…and spoke of using a GPS to do your navigating. But from your above comments, it’s obvious I misread your intent to use it to navigate going fast at night…Sorry!  However,  when you’ve heard as many stories as I have about some of the ideas new boat owners have, it’s understandable.  The best one recently was a dealer who told me about a first time buyer who wanted GPS and an autopilot on his new houseboat so it could take him back to his slip at night if he was too drunk to do it himself! I see bass boats hauling all over the lake at night at WOT (more often than not with no lights showing BTW)… occasionally hear of  tragic consequences….I just don’t want you to be  one of  ’em. Now, you want to talk useless. With a toilet at every ramp, who needs a marine toilet?

Anyone who has a boat with enough privacy for one who doesn’t  want to go find a toilet on land every time his wife has to pee! <gg Bring that shiny new toy up my way one of these days and I’ll buy you a beer…it’s the least I can do after insulting your intelligence! Peggie Hall/Peal Products Specializing in marine toilet systems since 1987

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WARNING – This post will have little content. I picked up my first bass boat on Saturday and I am gleaming from ear to ear.

Welcome to boating!  I plan to add a Bimini top, fishfinder(s), bilge pump (not included!), and a tachometer, once the checkbook balances out. I even have to add tie-down cleats! I put in another 6 gallon tank.

Welcome to the reality of owning (and dumping money into) a boat . . .

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For one thing, you’ll learn that GPS isn’t a speedometer…it stands for Global Positioning System…it’s a computerized satellite navigation system that tells you where you are and what course to steer in latitude/longitude terms. Since you can always see the shore on all sides, you don’t need one to find your way home on Lanier!

Gee, my GPS displays current course and speed. (In knots, statute miles per hour, or km per hour) If you go over the the sci… groups, you can debate whether the speed is calculated based on delta-t / delta-d or doppler shift. Lee Lindquist     lindquist ‘at’ ibm.net "Only 2 more years until people stop telling me when the millenium REALLY ends."

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For one thing, you’ll learn that GPS isn’t a speedometer…it stands for Global Positioning System…it’s a computerized satellite navigation system that tells you where you are and what course to steer in latitude/longitude terms. Since you can always see the shore on all sides, you don’t need one to find your way home on Lanier! Gee, my GPS displays current course and speed. (In knots, statute miles per hour, or km per hour) If you go over the the sci… groups, you can debate whether the speed is calculated based on delta-t / delta-d or doppler shift.

So I’ve heard from a dozen people via e-mail!  Since there’s no real practical use for ‘em on an inland lake, the only ones I’ve seen were on friends’ sailboats on the Chesapeake Bay….and those only showed course and position. The owners  all have separate knotmeters. How ’bout expanding  my learning curve a bit more…first, the lake conditions: Lanier is a river in the foothills of the Smokies that was dammed and spread out over hills & valleys…around 260′ deep at the dam, but as little as 15′ deep up "creeks" out of the main channel. The water level fluctuates as much as 13′…what’s  6′ below the surface-and no problem–at full pool can "rise" to 2′ below it in a  matter of a week or two,  much of  it in the middle of  channels.  And the shoreline "moves" as a result.  In fact, the shoreline is "expanding" and islands  are shrinking–some have disappeared –due primarily to wake…Lanier is the most-used Corps of Engineers lake in the country. While the areas that are always shallow, many of which are passable when the lake is at full pool, but not when it’s down as little as 2′,  are marked,  it’s impossible to mark the ones that appear and disappear with fluctuating water levels as fast as often happens …and markers get knocked down. "Local knowledge" of the reefs and shoal waters is  essential…prop and outdrive repair accounts for a major percentage of the marine repair  business around the lake…even seasoned boaters who’ve been on the lake for more than a decade fall victim, proceeding VERY cautiously even in the daytime, and especially at night. Just last fall a friend who’s had a houseboat on the lake for more than 20 years lost an outdrive on an unmarked shoal in the main  channel of the lake, more than 100 yds from the shore…running at about  1200 rpms, but not paying enough attention to his course. Now, the question: Is it really possible-as our friend with his first boat seems to think it is-for  any  GPS to "steer" a boat running WOT around all these hazards?   Seems to me it would take a complete map of the bottom and more waypoints than any  device could handle. Peggie Hall/Peal Products Specializing in marine toilet systems since 1987 (And should prob’ly stick to giving plumbing advice only!)

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| Congratulations!  You’re about to find out why B.O.A.T. stands for Break | Out Another Thousand! <gg | | However…. | | I am new to powered boats, but have driven friend’s boats. This boat | will fly! I am not sure how fast, though – no GPS, yet. I plan to add… | | But first do the rest of us on Lanier–and yourself–a HUGE favor: take | a Coast Guard Auxiliary or US Power Squadron boating safety course! | | For one thing, you’ll learn that GPS isn’t a speedometer…it stands for | Global Positioning System…it’s a computerized satellite navigation | system that tells you where you are and what course to steer in | latitude/longitude terms. Since you can always see the shore on all | sides, you don’t need one to find your way home on Lanier! | | You DO need a VHF radio, however…so you can call for help when you run | out of gas. <GG | | A boating safety course costs nothing but the time to do it. You’ll | learn the rules of the road, correct VHF procedure, how to read a chart, | how to recognize when weather is building and get to shelter before the | storm hits (I’ve been on Lanier in sudden squalls packing 45 knot | winds–NOT where someone in a 17′ open boat wants to be!)…safety gear | and how to use it–what’s required…a whole BUNCH of information that | could save your life–or mine. <g | | Have fun and be safe!  When you get the radio (and learn how to use it), | call SOLITAIRE…I’d love to see your boat. | | Peggie Hall/Peal Products | Specializing in marine toilet systems since 1987 | | Peggie | Thanks Peggy, I am reading a boating safety manual right now, which is probably more than most boaters do as a minimum. It is not my first time on the water, just my first power boat. I’ve have four other boats under the deck. Thanks, too, for the info on the GPS. I was trying to head off the corrective comments about speedometers not being accurate. GPS is a lot more useful than just finding your way back to the dock, in my estimation. It can be a safety device in tough boating conditions such as inclement weather or just being in the dark. Shorelines can be tricky to read in the dark, and one might not want to run next to waterway markers if there is a boat anchored nearby. Last, but not least, GPS can be used to re-locate positions, whether it be underwater cover, building foundations (my wife and I are divers, as well), and submerged islands, particularly on the distant lakes where I plan to trailer my boat. Not too sure I need a VHF radio, though. I’ve got twelve gallons of gas and I am an awful cautious. I switch over a tank leaving enough to get back on in the empty. I prefer to have a HONKIN’ bilge pump with a redundant back-up to buy me enough time to get to safety or shore. I have been in a thirteen foot Ghenoe on a river when it was raining so hard and the boat was filling with water so fast that I couldn’t stop bailing long enough to set the gear out of the boat on the bank! I’ve also paddled the Ocoee river in my kayak a few of times and gotten chewed up by Double Trouble and Diamond Splitter, as well as Hell Hole and Double Suck, but I’ll say this…it wasn’t as thrilling as cruising the lake in MY BASS BOAT!!! See you on the water.

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Congratulations!  You’re about to find out why B.O.A.T. stands for Break Out Another Thousand! <gg However…. I am new to powered boats, but have driven friend’s boats. This boat will fly! I am not sure how fast, though – no GPS, yet. I plan to add…

But first do the rest of us on Lanier–and yourself–a HUGE favor: take a Coast Guard Auxiliary or US Power Squadron boating safety course! For one thing, you’ll learn that GPS isn’t a speedometer…it stands for Global Positioning System…it’s a computerized satellite navigation system that tells you where you are and what course to steer in latitude/longitude terms. Since you can always see the shore on all sides, you don’t need one to find your way home on Lanier! You DO need a VHF radio, however…so you can call for help when you run out of gas. <GG A boating safety course costs nothing but the time to do it. You’ll learn the rules of the road, correct VHF procedure, how to read a chart, how to recognize when weather is building and get to shelter before the storm hits (I’ve been on Lanier in sudden squalls packing 45 knot winds–NOT where someone in a 17′ open boat wants to be!)…safety gear and how to use it–what’s required…a whole BUNCH of information that could save your life–or mine. <g Have fun and be safe!  When you get the radio (and learn how to use it), call SOLITAIRE…I’d love to see your boat. Peggie Hall/Peal Products Specializing in marine toilet systems since 1987 Peggie

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I think its great that you got you’re first boat. I bought my first boat as well last week. Its an old boat a ‘72 Starcraft with a small motor (35 HP). We took it out Sunday and ran around a local lake. Sonce i was a kid I’ve wanted a boat. Someday, I’ll upgrade, but I’m just in heaven from this boat. I did not catch any fish my first time out, but I did not really try. Have fun and be safe. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – WARNING – This post will have little content. I picked up my first bass boat on Saturday and I am gleaming from ear to ear. I bought a 17ft Grumman with console steering with a 50HP Johnson with pwr trim/ tilt. Two casting decks, aerated livewell, and a Johnson foot-operated trolling motor. My wife and I went out both Saturday and Sunday on Lake Lanier (north of Atlanta) and just had a blast. I caught a small spotted bass (about 1-1/4#) and she made me bring him home and clean him, since it was the inaugural bass, in the first 15 minutes of fishing! I am new to powered boats, but have driven friend’s boats. This boat will fly! I am not sure how fast, though – no GPS, yet. I plan to add a Bimini top, fishfinder(s), bilge pump (not included!), and a tachometer, once the checkbook balances out. I even have to add tie-down cleats! I put in another 6 gallon tank. This boat sips fuel, though. My wife loves it and the dogs were great for their first trip out. Got to get that bimini top on, though, for everyone’s sake. There was hardly anybody on the lake, especially yesterday. Although, it was partly sunny, we saw only a dozen boats. Great time for us to try out our new baby. The name of our new boat? Well, I guess we’re getting silly as we age, but we call our new Ford truck the "Golden Boy" (after the "Seinfeld" episode), so our aluminum boat is called the "Silver Queen", after the corn we love to pick out of our teeth. See you on the water…

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This is what it is all ABOUT!!! Tear it up Tom & family…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – WARNING – This post will have little content. I picked up my first bass boat on Saturday and I am gleaming from ear to ear. I bought a 17ft Grumman with console steering with a 50HP Johnson with pwr trim/ tilt. Two casting decks, aerated livewell, and a Johnson foot-operated trolling motor. My wife and I went out both Saturday and Sunday on Lake Lanier (north of Atlanta) and just had a blast. I caught a small spotted bass (about 1-1/4#) and she made me bring him home and clean him, since it was the inaugural bass, in the first 15 minutes of fishing! I am new to powered boats, but have driven friend’s boats. This boat will fly! I am not sure how fast, though – no GPS, yet. I plan to add a Bimini top, fishfinder(s), bilge pump (not included!), and a tachometer, once the checkbook balances out. I even have to add tie-down cleats! I put in another 6 gallon tank. This boat sips fuel, though. My wife loves it and the dogs were great for their first trip out. Got to get that bimini top on, though, for everyone’s sake. There was hardly anybody on the lake, especially yesterday. Although, it was partly sunny, we saw only a dozen boats. Great time for us to try out our new baby. The name of our new boat? Well, I guess we’re getting silly as we age, but we call our new Ford truck the "Golden Boy" (after the "Seinfeld" episode), so our aluminum boat is called the "Silver Queen", after the corn we love to pick out of our teeth. See you on the water…

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WARNING – This post will have little content. I picked up my first bass boat on Saturday and I am gleaming from ear to ear. I bought a 17ft Grumman with console steering with a 50HP Johnson with pwr trim/ tilt. Two casting decks, aerated livewell, and a Johnson foot-operated trolling motor. My wife and I went out both Saturday and Sunday on Lake Lanier (north of Atlanta) and just had a blast. I caught a small spotted bass (about 1-1/4#) and she made me bring him home and clean him, since it was the inaugural bass, in the first 15 minutes of fishing! I am new to powered boats, but have driven friend’s boats. This boat will fly! I am not sure how fast, though – no GPS, yet. I plan to add a Bimini top, fishfinder(s), bilge pump (not included!), and a tachometer, once the checkbook balances out. I even have to add tie-down cleats! I put in another 6 gallon tank. This boat sips fuel, though. My wife loves it and the dogs were great for their first trip out. Got to get that bimini top on, though, for everyone’s sake. There was hardly anybody on the lake, especially yesterday. Although, it was partly sunny, we saw only a dozen boats. Great time for us to try out our new baby. The name of our new boat? Well, I guess we’re getting silly as we age, but we call our new Ford truck the "Golden Boy" (after the "Seinfeld" episode), so our aluminum boat is called the "Silver Queen", after the corn we love to pick out of our teeth. See you on the water…

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Question:

I related in an earlier post that I have a pair of Simms micro-fiber that I got in January and that I’m happy with them so far but – - – -I picked up a copy of the April issue of Fly Rod and Reel magazine today.  This issue includes an article about "breathable" waders in which the author describes his experiences with field testing six pairs of new waders.  The one big problem that he found with them was a tendency to develop pinhole leaks.  One pair leaked "out of the box".  A couple of more developed leaks within 20-30 hours of use.  The "best" pair developed the first leak after about 100 hours of use.   None of the leaks were in the seams.  All were due to punctures of the fabric and membrane. I’ve worn mine on about five or six trips this year with no problems but I’m extremely careful around briars and the like. Johnny

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That’s all very learned, and persuasive, but what about the perhaps majority of times when one is not actually in water up to one’s cheeks — tummy-crawling up to a choice pool, hiking the mile along the old rail bed to the next less people-populated stretch, and so on?  That’s when I find the added weight (of alternative materials) and the moisture-inside problem most irritating.  So, I’ll set up a different kind of question: does the transpiration leave the sweat-salt behind (I assume it does), and if so is this a Good Thing?

Dan, I doubt there is a clear answer. However, it is unlikely that the salt and oils from the sweat traverse the Goretex effectively since they would not be transported on water vapor molecules. If there is any transport would relate to the pore size in the fabric and the size of the salt or oil molecules or aggregates. Over time they probably build up if not contained in the liner clothing underneath the Gortex and impair the water vapor exchange by clogging the holes. This may relate to the previous post suggesting to keep it clean. Gortex, in theory, is a perfect breathable fabric. In real life, my experience has been that it is less than perfect but does offer some advantages because of its breathability. I think if you were to push any of the underlying conditions to extremes then the Goretex would not perform. For example, when skiing very hard and generating mass quantities of sweat in extremely cold weather a layer of ice will form inside my Gortex jacket. Presumably the water vapor hit the temperature gradient at the inside surface of the jacket, condensed and froze. Another example would be excessive perspiration under generally average conditions. The exchange of water vapor through the fabric is through diffusion. As long as the water vapor concentration is lower outside then exchange will occur (I doubt it would work in a steam bath). This exchange is rate limited by the number and size of the pores. If your sweat-water vapor production exceeds this maximum rate for vapor transpiration it will get very humid inside the waders. Water will then condense depending on the temperature (this interaction between humidity and temperature is called the dew point; ie. the temp. at which condensate forms for a given air water content.  Thus, the intensity of exercise, the persons propensity to perspire and the temperature of the environment are all factors in your ultimate comfort. In addition, walking may help move air in and out of the top of the waders helping the loss of water vapor considerably but may be offset by the increased exercise. You did not mention if you were belly crawling through thick brush or mud. Also the level of excitement based on how "choice" the pool is may be a factor. Certainly this would alter the equation. Similarly falling in the river would require sophisticated mathematical modeling to reach an answer and would depend on the initial condition assumptions. For instance was the fall a "melt down" and was the person able to keep the flyrod arm above water or was it a head first plunge (probably would require invoking chaos theory here) and did he/she have to swim the next rapid downstream? A long fishless winter seems to lead to considering these imponderables. I am off to Telluride for a science meeting and to telemark ski, I’ll think more on this on the lifts. Best regards. Jon

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Besides the cost, is there any downside to gore-tex (breathable) waders? First, ask yourself what Gore-Tex does.  It is a semi-permiable teflon membrane, too small to let water pass, but will allow water vapor to. As far as breathability, Gore-Tex will NOT push warm water vapor from YOU into the water in which you are standing.  Thermodynamically, this is prohibitive.  (Think about it: nature loves and goes to disorder. Forcing your sweat vapor out of a mixture of air and into an environment already full of water will not happen.  Never in the history of the universe has this Spontaneously happend)  Gore-tex will allow your waders to dry from the inside and out, however in a short amount of time.  This means no more clammy feet from yesterday’s wading.  Also, if the Gore-tex is to fuction in a breathable mode, it must be the sole water barrier.  Any other barrier would retard air flow and make Gore-Tex useless.  If your membrane is damaged in some way, it will be much harder to repair.  Thank-you. That is all. Jason Beary

I dont want to argue with thermo dynamics, but I think that you are dead wrong. I have used Gore-Tex a lot riding motor cycles in _heavy_ rain ( we have loads of that during a typical Swedish summer and it really keeps the water out and lets the sweat evaporate. I can asure you that during these conditions you will normally get soaking wet just as fast as if you took a bath with your clothes on. I really can’t understand your reasoning either. It would be valid for a system without a membrane, but the membrane does just what you say: lets water molecules pass and keeps water in liquid form out. This is due to the surface tension of the water. The water on the outside will have a lower temperature than the the fisher on the inside of the membrane and this is the key to why there will be more molecules going out through the membrane than in. This leads to two things: 1) Don’t take away the water tension. You may do this by letting the Gore-Tex get dirty. So keep your waders clean. 1) Don’t wade in water warmer than your skin temperature ( ~28 C ) using Gore-Tex waders. /KK  Kjell K Kernen – More or less sane.

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Besides the cost, is there any downside to gore-tex (breathable) waders? I assume that the degree of insulation required can be regulated by the clothes worn underneath. Is this reasonable? Thanks

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Hi Jerry-    I hate to sound so cut and dry, but you are dead wrong. Not only does GoreTex breath underwater, it does it very well. Water logged polypro thermal underwear will dry out while wading in waist deep water under GoreTex waders. That is a lot of water for your body to vaporize and for your waders to dispell, but GoreTex waders do it. From first hand, real life (repeated) experience I can state this as a fact.    I would urge you to get out from under your book learned "facts" and test your theories under real conditions before making such pronouncements to the world. It would be a shame if someone read your words and made a fishing decision based on your "information".    Tight lines, Ralph Ralph Cutter, California School of Flyfishing. http://www.flyline.com

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Question:

I’m looking at Jet Boats for Klamath River. How is important is a center console and how big a boat and how much HP needed for two adult fisherman, opinions appreciated?

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I’m looking at jet boats for the Klamath river, CA. How important is a center console and what do you think is an adequate msize boat & motor for tow adults? All, opinions appreciated.

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Whew!…I allways get shakey when I see a post for jet boats!….they are a major nusiance on some rivers here in Montana…for that matter any motorized boat is a nusiance on a river(of wading size)….we had a clown in a boat down on the lower clark fork one summer…he would cruise at nearly full trottle up and down the river all day long…if you were wading and didn’t get out of the water quickly his wake would come up over your wader tops…it would put rising fish down for 15-20 minutes…and just when they got back on the fin, he’d come zooming back down the river…a lot of flyfisherman were talking about this guy that summer and threatening to strangle him!

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I don’t know about MT laws, but in WA this will get the guy a big fine. A person in waders is considered a SWIMER, and requires boats to maintain a 100 yard distance or be below 5 MPH.  Not sure on the exact distance in all cases, but the lakes around here enforce 100 yds. Also, any boat is ALWAYS responsible for its wake.  Check laws, and if you can’t get a local law officer out, get a few buddies togeather, get the guys boat number and personal ID.  If he blows you off at this point he will be in bigger trouble.  File a complaint at the local agency.  May require a day in court, but I bet he will learn the lesson very quickly. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Whew!…I allways get shakey when I see a post for jet boats!….they are a major nusiance on some rivers here in Montana…for that matter any motorized boat is a nusiance on a river(of wading size)….we had a clown in a boat down on the lower clark fork one summer…he would cruise at nearly full trottle up and down the river all day long…if you were wading and didn’t get out of the water quickly his wake would come up over your wader tops…it would put rising fish down for 15-20 minutes…and just when they got back on the fin, he’d come zooming back down the river…a lot of flyfisherman were talking about this guy that summer and threatening to strangle him!

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Hey, Mellow out!!    Jet boats are like mt bikes, 200 watt stereos and fly fishing "experts". A little abuse and social ineptitude can go a long ways. Several days ago I was on the Yuba when a couple of kids came fishing through with spinning gear. A flyfishing expert (in his own mind) yelled to me, "some day these guys will earn how to REALLY fish". I’m sure it just made their day.    I’ve got a 16′ aluminum jon style river boat with a 40hp outboard jet on it. I’ve had (and still have) whalers, drift boats, canoes, float tubes, kayaks, ad nauseum. . . and nothing has come close in terms of flyfishing versatility to this little jet job.  It’s quite, leaves a flat wake, floats on dew, and can fish me anywhere in the Sacramento Delta, the San Francisco Bay or on any boatable lake or river on the West coast. Just because it can go 35mph doesn’t mean it has too. It has a trolling motor and oar locks and I put just about as many miles on the thing with the motor out of the water as I do with it in.    As far as the answer to the original question, I don’t know . . . never been on that river in a jet. As far as all of the responses to the guy’s query. . . get a life.    Tight lines, Ralph —

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The absolute best jet boat on a wadeable stream is aluminum, has a large hole in the hull slightly aft of the bow, a dead engine and is on a trailer heading for somewhere else.                         Mike in PDX                "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                                            Tom McGuane

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Get a life..exactly…and keep motor boats off Montana ’s rivers!

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:    I’ve got a 16′ aluminum jon style river boat with a 40hp outboard jet : on it. I’ve had (and still have) whalers, drift boats, canoes, float : tubes, kayaks, ad nauseum. . . and nothing has come close in terms of : flyfishing versatility to this little jet job.   I too, like the idea of jetting to a great spot to fish, but what do you think the boat does to the fish you pass over?  I’ll bet they hide for hours afterward.  This can happen on the Salmon in Idaho.  Knee deep in beautiful water and then a jet boat goes through.  Might as well hang it up, because the fish go down… It probably soesn’t matter as much on the bigger rivers.  But I don’t know… the Salmon collects from one of the largest drainages in America. I think I prefer to go upstream and pontoon boat down.  I’ll buy my first boat this year.  It seems this approach would disturb the fish much less.  Opinions? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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About 6 mos ago I hit a reference on the net to a study that the state of Alaska had initiated.  Basically, they were going to look at the effects of jet boat traffic on spawning chinook.  The study was going to focus on small (undefined) waters.  The concern was that the heavy traffic in some areas was adversley impacting the fish.  Unfortunately, I no longer have the reference to the site or the study.  Might check on Alaska DFG site. Power boating is apparently an issue in New Zealand (Simon Lusk, chip in here please).  As part of the scenic river plan for the Deschutes River, a literature search was done about 3 years ago and at that time, the only studies on impacts of jet boats on fish, riparian habitat, bank degradation etc. that were found had been done in NZ.  It does appear that in some instances there can be an impact on sediment displacement/load in shoreside areas and bank erosion from wave wash. In addition to habitat issues, there is a growing concern about conflict between user groups as use becomes more intensive, particularly on smaller or more confined waters such as most of the water we fish for trout.  Urban planners dealt with a similiar problem a long time ago…There are not many cities in this country that DON’T have one-way streets…. On big water such as the Snake, other considerations are raised…is "wild and scenic" compatible with 300hp 40mph, ??decible power boat traffic?  The Forest Service and the non-powerboating public thinks not.  See new boat traffic regs on Snake.  The Deschutes River (lower river) has power boat free weeks during the season and there is a lot of pressure to remove them entirely.                         Mike in PDX                "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                                            Tom McGuane

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What follows is an e-mail response to a post on Jet Boats.  "Bogus"=counterfeit, fake.  Sorry, it was a real post, I realy did post it, you realy did read it.  I am still looking to see exactly where my occupation is listed however.  Not too long ago I heard a fairly well respected guide and author tell a jet boat owner that was a bit unhappy about regulations on powerboats that he should consider selling his mega foot mega horspower jet boat for mega dollars and investing the proceeds in an education…..then maybe he wouldn’t feel compelled to turn every body of running water into a drag strip. I would appreciate any references to studies, bogus or otherwise, that indicate that the use of jet boats in confined waters is beneficial to fish or habitat. The only bogus study involving jet boats that I am aware of also involved bass boats.  A study of boat owning penile transplant candidates indicated that over 65% of them owned either jet sleds or bass boats.                         Mike in PDX                "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                                            Tom McGuane hi.com Your post concerning JET Boat studies & spawning is BOGUS.Do your research before making such BS Claims. Perhaps if you spent some time at a job that afforded your more economic return(and less time clogging the net with this bulll shit) you might some get to the best fishing in a jet Boat. "When the Trout are lost" i’ts your fault for allowing it to happen !

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey does anybody have any experience good/bad with these waders?  They look interesting but are they worth it?  And yes, Gore-Tex does work underwater. Hi Jorge- I trust you mean Simm’s Gore-Tex Micro Fiber. I have several pair including a protoype three seasons old. I’m in them just about every day and wear ‘em hard. I walk railroad tracks in 90 degree sun and wade waist deep with ice in the guides. They have yet to let me down.   In short, the micro fibers are great. Maybe better than great. I love them and have not put on neoprenes since. Because they expell moisture (where neoprene doesn’t) the *percieved* temperature is warmer in Gore-Tex than in neoprenes where the air is damp. Your best insulation is from layering fleece, Capilene, etc under a wader rather than depending on 3 or 4mm of neoprene anyway.   Gravel will grind in your shoes and the Micro-Fiber WILL leak in the feet unless you wear neoprene outer socks (provided with the waders). The water that migrates between the socks and the Gore-Tex allows even the feet to breath. Magic.       BEWARE! New models will soon be available with built in neoprene feet. These are convenient to wear (no messing with the neoprene outer sock) but despite what Simms, Orvis or anyone else say, the moisture laden air does NOT migrate up into your legs to be "breathed away". You WILL have wet feet. I have Micro-Fibers both with and without the built in neoprene feet. I’ll spend a minute putting on the extra sock any day to have dry feet!   I’m on the Simms technical advisory panel and work very closely with the company. To hopefully let you know my assesments are honest, let  me say:  Stay away from the Simms Cordura waders. They have a history of leakage problems. Also, I will tell you that Simms has had a very hard time meeting consumer demand and you might have a tough time finding your waders. Also, if you get a leak in your $300.00+ waders, it will take *at least* a month (based on history- their new plant opens next week and maybe this will speed things up) to get them repaired by Simms. You can not fix them at home. There. Now go out and buy a pair with my urging and enjoy! They *ARE* worth it.   Tight lines! Ralph —

  Ralph   Not to be contrary ,but I,ve have buddies that say after a few hours on the river they are soaked from within. Could this be condensation that does not "osmose" through the fabric fast enough ?   Harry  { I looking as well )

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 Ralph  Not to be contrary ,but I,ve have buddies that say after a few hours on the river they are soaked from within. Could this be condensation that does not "osmose" through the fabric fast enough ?

Hi Harry! Contrary? I think not, You asked a good question.    The greater the temperature "differential" (inside the wader vs outside the wader) the better Gore-Tex works. Walking around on a hot day will not only work up a sweat but will not provide much of a "differential" and the Gore-Tex won’t work.  If you’ve worked up a sweat then wade into cold water you’ll be dry in a few minutes. Gore-Tex down jackets and sleeping bags fail miserably because the down is such an efficient insulator the temp differential is minimal.    My guess is that your friends are fishing in very warm water or they have pin hole leaks (a big problem with the Simms *Cordura* Gore-Tex waders. If they are Cordura, have your friends throw them through the wash. The open weave of the Cordura traps very small stickers that poke nearly invisible holes into the Gore-Tex membrane. Very often the wash will soften and dislodge the stickers and the holes will reseal themselves).     Check to see they are using Gore-Tex. Some of the other "waterproof/breathable" materials aren’t as breathable as Gore-Tex and at least one is very prone to clogging with body oils. (All waterproof/breathble fabrics work best when kept relatively clean. Be sure to run them through the drier after they’ve been cleaned, this rejuvenates the water repellent coating applied to the outer fabric.)    Tight lines, Ralph —

Response:

Just a question on the topic of Gortex Waders….. Do they provide any bouyancy, ala neoprene?  My buddy fell into the McKenzie last Saturday and was washed downstream about 150 ft. in about three minutes.  He survived because he was in neoprene and he remembered that they would provide bouyancy.  He lost his rod, but he lived to tell the story. Charley

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Just a question on the topic of Gortex Waders….. Do they provide any bouyancy, ala neoprene?  My buddy fell into the McKenzie last Saturday and was washed downstream about 150 ft.

When Gortex snow suits came out I quickly concluded they were for rich folks who don’t ski a lot.  Those who ski a lot tear up ski clothing, and can’t afford to purchase new gortex every season. By analogy, in my humble opinion, gortex waders are for rich folks who don’t really fish a lot.  My neopremes are so patched up they look like they have leprosy.  I can’t afford new gortex every season. — -Wayne Trzyna

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just a question on the topic of Gortex Waders….. Do they provide any bouyancy, ala neoprene?  My buddy fell into the McKenzie last Saturday and was washed downstream about 150 ft. When Gortex snow suits came out I quickly concluded they were for rich folks who don’t ski a lot.  Those who ski a lot tear up ski clothing, and can’t afford to purchase new gortex every season. By analogy, in my humble opinion, gortex waders are for rich folks who don’t really fish a lot.  My neopremes are so patched up they look like they have leprosy.  I can’t afford new gortex every season. — -Wayne Trzyna

Wayne  I tied 20 doz. flies for my last pair. Scotts, they lasted 4 years, even in the acid water of the Lower Sac.   Harry

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Wayne, :gortex waders are for rich folks who don’t really fish a lot.  My :neopremes are so patched up they look like they have leprosy.  I can’t :afford new gortex every season. I disagree.  I think that Gortex waders are for those of use who fish so much when it is hot that we would shorten our lifespans without them.  I would typically sweat at least two quarts up in South Park in my neoprenes.  I still sweat in my Goretex, but not nearly as much, because my bodies system actually works with the Goretex.  It’s also great to be able to take off your waders and not feel like you’ve had a bath.  I think that the only alternative to Goretex is to wade wet (which I love to do) but this doesn’t offer as much temperature variability as the Goretex. And that water in S. Park can be quiet cold.  Besides, they make patch kits for Goretex too..

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Harry, I am skeptical of anyone who is associated with a product. I don’t call that contrary,  just smart.  Their credibility is an inverse ratio to their financial involvement.

   The question is: Is there anyone out there who has used the Simms GoreTex waders for a year or so that would go back to using anything else?    I’m only an occasional fisherman, but I’ve had my older type Simms for three years and wouldn’t consider going back to neoprene or ‘lightweights’.  Given the other costs of this sport, I think these waders are pretty good value of the money. — Lloyd Fortney —Opinions are mine—

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  I’m only an occasional fisherman, but I’ve had my older type Simms for three years and wouldn’t consider going back to neoprene or ‘lightweights’.  Given the other costs of this sport, I think these waders are pretty good value of the money. — Lloyd Fortney —Opinions are mine—

Actually, I am convinced there is a place for both.  I absolutely love gore tex for 75% of my fishing.  However, yesterday I was fishing in some pretty cold water and wished i had had on neoprene about the time my feet turned blue. Mike Ray

Response:

Hey does anybody have any experience good/bad with these waders?  They look interesting but are they worth it?  And yes, Gore-Tex does work underwater.

Response:

Hey does anybody have any experience good/bad with these waders?  They look interesting but are they worth it?  And yes, Gore-Tex does work underwater.

Hi Jorge- I trust you mean Simm’s Gore-Tex Micro Fiber. I have several pair including a protoype three seasons old. I’m in them just about every day and wear ‘em hard. I walk railroad tracks in 90 degree sun and wade waist deep with ice in the guides. They have yet to let me down.    In short, the micro fibers are great. Maybe better than great. I love them and have not put on neoprenes since. Because they expell moisture (where neoprene doesn’t) the *percieved* temperature is warmer in Gore-Tex than in neoprenes where the air is damp. Your best insulation is from layering fleece, Capilene, etc under a wader rather than depending on 3 or 4mm of neoprene anyway.    Gravel will grind in your shoes and the Micro-Fiber WILL leak in the feet unless you wear neoprene outer socks (provided with the waders). The water that migrates between the socks and the Gore-Tex allows even the feet to breath. Magic.        BEWARE! New models will soon be available with built in neoprene feet. These are convenient to wear (no messing with the neoprene outer sock) but despite what Simms, Orvis or anyone else say, the moisture laden air does NOT migrate up into your legs to be "breathed away". You WILL have wet feet. I have Micro-Fibers both with and without the built in neoprene feet. I’ll spend a minute putting on the extra sock any day to have dry feet!    I’m on the Simms technical advisory panel and work very closely with the company. To hopefully let you know my assesments are honest, let  me say:  Stay away from the Simms Cordura waders. They have a history of leakage problems. Also, I will tell you that Simms has had a very hard time meeting consumer demand and you might have a tough time finding your waders. Also, if you get a leak in your $300.00+ waders, it will take *at least* a month (based on history- their new plant opens next week and maybe this will speed things up) to get them repaired by Simms. You can not fix them at home. There. Now go out and buy a pair with my urging and enjoy! They *ARE* worth it.    Tight lines! Ralph —

Response:

Question:

: I’m heading to Colo. next week to ski, but the snow looks a little thin : and I’m thinking of bringing some fly tackle.  I haven’t fished Colo. in : years, but have fond memories of the Blue some thirty years ago, learning         I think there is typically some activity on the Blue this time of year.  As you are going to be skiing (maybe close to summit county) it would be a convenient place to go.  Any of the local fly shops should be very helpful in outfitting you with a decent selection of flies and should also give you some idea of where to go.           If you wouldn’t mind a drive, you might try the South Platte good luck

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| |   If you wouldn’t mind a drive, you might try the South Platte |   Where is Cheeseman Canyon. Does one need a 4-wheel drive to get there??  Is it still running??

Response:

:    Where is Cheeseman Canyon. Does one need a 4-wheel drive to get there??  Is it :  still running?? :   : The So. Platte in Cheesman Canyon is a tailwater. so there is always open water (unless temperature get very low : and cause some icing). It’s a hour drive west of Denver on pavement and a 15-min. to half-hour hike on trail into 3 mile long : canyon stretch. Many large but educated rainbows there. I would suggest hiring a guide to get you into fish quickly. Call : "The Flyfisher" flyshop at 303-322-5014 if your interested, as the Canyon can be very cruel to a newcomer. : Yours virtually, : Gary W. Godden : Denver, Colorado         If you are planning ahead of time and can get your hands on the book "Flyfishing the South Platte River" by Roger Hill, you could probably save money (I’m broke) and do reasonably well.  It is a very well written book and details the important flies and hatches all year long (including Jan.).

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   Where is Cheeseman Canyon. Does one need a 4-wheel drive to get there??  Is it  still running?? The So. Platte in Cheesman Canyon is a tailwater. so there is always open water (unless temperature get very low

and cause some icing). It’s a hour drive west of Denver on pavement and a 15-min. to half-hour hike on trail into 3 mile long canyon stretch. Many large but educated rainbows there. I would suggest hiring a guide to get you into fish quickly. Call "The Flyfisher" flyshop at 303-322-5014 if your interested, as the Canyon can be very cruel to a newcomer. Yours virtually, Gary W. Godden Denver, Colorado

Response:

I’m heading to Colo. next week to ski, but the snow looks a little thin and I’m thinking of bringing some fly tackle.  I haven’t fished Colo. in years, but have fond memories of the Blue some thirty years ago, learning the fundamentals.  Any info on impact to the resource, locations, gear and tackle wold be appreciated.  Good fly shops around Summit county?  I have winter fished in Minn. (yes) and Mont., so I have some idea about what’s involved, like getting in the water without taking a swim.

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