Question:

Steve, I have a set of Hodgman neoprene waders and wading boots and they work fine for me.  The only problem I have with them is that I sweat like a pig in them.  I cannot wear any clothes under them that I plan on wearing later as they get soaked.  I just returned from the Pit, McCloud and Burney creek and did not feel cold in the waders at all. Just my $.02, Dustin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings from Northern California.  In shopping for my first pair of waders (I’m new to fly fishing) I came across the Hodgman closeout site.  The have Wadelite non-breathable waders, suspenders, and Caster Boots for the low price of $49.99.  Is this a deal or am I just pissing away Fifty Bucks?

Response:

Personally, I doubt if I could get more than 3 seasons out of a pair of waders no mater who made them. Having used all varieties, I am sold on breathables for all weather conditions until it is warm enough to wade wet. In winter (you know, snow and ice) I stay warmer in breathables…. Does anyone get more than 3 seasons?….. john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings from Northern California.  In shopping for my first pair of waders (I’m new to fly fishing) I came across the Hodgman closeout site.  The have Wadelite non-breathable waders, suspenders, and Caster Boots for the low price of $49.99.  Is this a deal or am I just pissing away Fifty Bucks?

Response:

"asadi" < Personally, I doubt if I could get more than 3 seasons out of a pair of waders no mater who made them. Having used all varieties, I am sold on breathables for all weather conditions until it is warm enough to wade wet. In winter (you know, snow and ice) I stay warmer in breathables…. Does anyone get more than 3 seasons?….. john

I got a whole season out of a pair of breathables last year and they have three holes patched. They may get me through this coming one as well. I would presume I do a lot more hours on the water than most, wouldn’t know how to work out what that equates too, but it would be at least three seasons I’m guessing. Clark

Response:

I’m 2/3 thru year 4 on my Simms Guide boots and waders. Never applied a patch to the waders and the boots look pretty spiffy considering. My trick is that I hose down my gear every time I fish and then hang it up to dry. This may sound a little obsessive, but I do the same with my fly lines and rods/reels and they’re as nice as the day I bot them. Also, it pays to be careful when putting on your waders and boots not to track sand and gravel on your feet. These are hell on wader feet. IMHO. -bh Boulder, CO

Response:

Greetings from Northern California.  In shopping for my first pair of waders (I’m new to fly fishing) I came across the Hodgman closeout site.  The have Wadelite non-breathable waders, suspenders, and Caster Boots for the low price of $49.99.  Is this a deal or am I just pissing away Fifty Bucks?

I am hardly new to flyfishing but use similiar waders myself. Also have cheaper model Hodgman boots. After using rubber/canvas and then neoprene waders this style seemed quite nice and light. I think its a good deal. Breathable waders are probably more comfortable but from all the complaints I’ve seen here concerning the cheaper ones it seems that you are looking at at least 200 bucks to get a good pair. A little steep for my taste, but of course I AM cheap (admitting you have a problem etc. etc. etc.). Geo.C.

Response:

I have a pair of hodgeman breathables, I can’t recall what model off the top of my head but I paid about 150 for them three years ago. I do allot of walking through brush to get to water and keep them in my car trunk all summer long on 90+ degree days witch can’t really be good for them, but they have yet to spring a leak and are very comfortable. I also bought there cheaper canvas felt sole wading boots. It ran me 200 total but for the abuse I put them through I think it was a good investment. I had some cheap rubber waders that were beyond uncomfortable and sprung a leak after a few trips crawling through the bushes on the edge of a stream(gota be stealthy some times, people give me silly looks when they see me crawling around in waders with a fly rod). So in the long run I think it’s worth spending on one good set then buying 4 or 5 bad ones through the years. Well that’s my 2 cents, well more like 5 Tim Apple

Response:

Greetings from Northern California.  In shopping for my first pair of waders (I’m new to fly fishing) I came across the Hodgman closeout site.  The have Wadelite non-breathable waders, suspenders, and Caster Boots for the low price of $49.99.  Is this a deal or am I just pissing away Fifty Bucks?

I found the nylon non-breathable Wadelites. Personally, I think these would be rather warm and uncomfortable. But then I’m "big-boned" <g and perspire a lot anyway. — TL, Tim

Response:

I purchased a pair of the bantam weight hippers and a pair of the bantam weight chest waders from their outlet store and used the hip waders this summer.     I now know why breatheables are so popular but other than perspiring quite a bit, the waders worked great.   held up pretty good during a week-long trip, no leaks, etc.    I don’t know about the boots, had a pair of 11 yo hodgman boots that worked ok. so, I thought for $50, i got a pretty good deal on the waders, i don’t get to fish much, but now have all waters covered… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Greetings from Northern California.  In shopping for my first pair of waders (I’m new to fly fishing) I came across the Hodgman closeout site.  The have Wadelite non-breathable waders, suspenders, and Caster Boots for the low price of $49.99.  Is this a deal or am I just pissing away Fifty Bucks?

Response:

Greetings from Northern California.  In shopping for my first pair of waders (I’m new to fly fishing) I came across the Hodgman closeout site.  The have Wadelite non-breathable waders, suspenders, and Caster Boots for the low price of $49.99.  Is this a deal or am I just pissing away Fifty Bucks?

It depends on how much you fish, and what type of fishing you do. If you’re going to be doing some small mountain creeks or upper lakes, then these are probably NG. I have a pair of Cabelas non-breathable cheap waders which are fine (with or without underlying insulation…depending on season) for late fall/winter/early spring (late spring for the ocean) fishing around here.  Once the weather warms up, I don’t use full waders, I either use hip boots, or wet-wade, with a couple of exceptions. When I’ve gone up to some of the bigger water (Ausable, West Branch of the Delaware) I could really have used the breathables. So, the answer is "it depends". — Rob

Response:

Greetings from Northern California.  In shopping for my first pair of waders (I’m new to fly fishing) I came across the Hodgman closeout site.  The have Wadelite non-breathable waders, suspenders, and Caster Boots for the low price of $49.99.  Is this a deal or am I just pissing away Fifty Bucks?

Response:

Greetings from Northern California.  In shopping for my first pair of waders (I’m new to fly fishing) I came across the Hodgman closeout site.  The have Wadelite non-breathable waders, suspenders, and Caster Boots for the low price of $49.99.  Is this a deal or am I just pissing away Fifty Bucks?

The Wadelite models are all breathable, according to their website. I’ve got a pair of the felt-sole Caster boots, and they’re decent for a starter set, although the felt is two-piece with the shank uncovered. This can sometimes cause stumbling problems if you’re not careful because the heel catches on rocks. — TL, Tim

Response:

Greetings from Northern California.  In shopping for my first pair of waders (I’m new to fly fishing) I came across the Hodgman closeout site.  The have Wadelite non-breathable waders, suspenders, and Caster Boots for the low price of $49.99.  Is this a deal or am I just pissing away Fifty Bucks?

Don’t know anything about the boots, but I bought the same waders for a quite a bit more money four years ago and they haven’t let me down yet. Sounds like a good deal to me. Wolfgang

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – @mcw.edu: Kill file nuff said Was it something I said? Wolfgang jeez, there’s just no pleasing some people.    :( Dammit, Wolfgang, Larry said "nuff said".  Wasn’t that good enough for you, or do you need to be "nuff saided" a second time. Scott

Damnit Scott!  I just hate it when you forget a question mark.  It’s the thingie that looks like this (?).  Is there no end to this madness!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dammit, Wolfgang, Larry said "nuff said".  Wasn’t that good enough for you, or do you need to be "nuff saided" a second time. You guys better be careful. We could be dealing with a "nuff sadist" Tim     now, *that’s* funny.  i wish you’d cut this out.  sure is difficult staying pissed at someone with a good sense of humor. wayno

For a third time, dang it.  Nuff said! day in and day out . . . it just won’t STOP! George Gehrke "nuff said"

Response:

Well, let’s hope he saved some of her hair for tying streamers? GG

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just buried my sister last week . Fishing is super I love it but Lets put things in perspective as to importance in  this life. that is the single most maudlin post i have ever seen on usenet. i regret your sister’s passing.  but it must be noted that you are too fucked up for words. awh

Response:

I just buried my sister last week . Fishing is super I love it but Lets put things in perspective as to importance in  this life.

        that is the single most maudlin post i have ever seen on usenet.         i regret your sister’s passing.  but it must be noted that you are too fucked up for words. awh

Response:

If you dont agree with someone fine My whole point was you dont need to call someone fucked up, stupid , asshole or what ever if they dont agree with you. Its just that simple. I choose to ignore people who do Some people go through life doing this. Life is to short. Look for the good  you wont find it by telling others they are fucked ,twit or what ever  because they dont agree with you. I want other people opinions . A person cant live enough life times to gain the wisdom  available  from others. Im actually  a very easy going laid back person — Fly Fisherman With a Fur less Naked Cat named Dub

Response:

I guess Bill Gates is wrong. I used spell check to verify my signature. Is it possible for Microsoft to make a mistake? — Fly Fisherman With a Fur less Naked Cat named Dub

Response:

Dont you just love the pissing contest? Its just fishing Everyone needs to get a life and enjoy the sport. Relax!  Life is to short. As a newbie I appreciate all  the information I can get. I will then make my decision on other opinions ignorant and un creditable My 2 cents worth — Fly Fisherman With a Fur less Naked Cat named Dub

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dont you just love the pissing contest? Its just fishing Everyone needs to get a life and enjoy the sport. Relax!  Life is to short. As a newbie I appreciate all  the information I can get. I will then make my decision on other opinions ignorant and un creditable My 2 cents worth — Fly Fisherman With a Fur less Naked Cat named Dub

Line forms on the left.  No pushing, shoving, or cutting.  Please have your ticket ready. Scott

Response:

Dont you just love the pissing contest? Its just fishing Everyone needs to get a life and enjoy the sport. Relax!  Life is to short. As a newbie I appreciate all  the information I can get. I will then make my decision on other opinions ignorant and un creditable My 2 cents worth — Fly Fisherman With a Fur less Naked Cat named Dub

FURLESS IS ONE WORD YOU INSUFFERABLE TWIT! Wolfgang that enough information for ya?

Response:

Dont you just love the pissing contest?

Actually, yes. I just don’t like it when it hits me. Its just fishing Everyone needs to get a life and enjoy the sport. Relax!  Life is to short.

Screw off! Don’t tell ME what to do!       (must relax, must relax. . . ) As a newbie I appreciate all  the information I can get. I will then make my decision on other opinions ignorant and un creditable

Uh, ’scuse me, but I don’t think "un" is a word. I wouldn’t say anything normally, but, hey, we’re discussing ignorance here. My 2 cents worth

Tim here’s your change

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dont you just love the pissing contest? Its just fishing Everyone needs to get a life and enjoy the sport. Relax!  Life is to short. As a newbie I appreciate all  the information I can get. I will then make my decision on other opinions ignorant and un creditable My 2 cents worth — Fly Fisherman With a Fur less Naked Cat named Dub FURLESS IS ONE WORD YOU INSUFFERABLE TWIT!

WOLF GANG is TWO WORDS YOU DUMB FUCK! George Gehrke "or is that WolfPack?"

Response:

FURLESS IS ONE WORD YOU INSUFFERABLE TWIT! WOLF GANG is TWO WORDS YOU DUMB FUCK! George Gehrke

Not usually one to condone scatology, but, in the meantime, SIC’EM, George! By the bye, what’s the diffference between ignorance & stupidity? Yours in the north Maine woods, Pete Hilton aka The Ent — A person is free only in the freedom of other persons.   W. Berry

Response:

FURLESS IS ONE WORD YOU INSUFFERABLE TWIT! WOLF GANG is TWO WORDS YOU DUMB FUCK! George Gehrke Not usually one to condone scatology, but, in the meantime, SIC’EM, George!

Well, let’s see now.  I am reviled by the most despised and least literate buffoon on this news group, and from all reports on others as well, who is by now so drunk he probably can’t stand up (yep, look at the patterns), and who is, to put it as simply as possible, wrong as always, and he is cheered on by a guy who thinks he is a talking tree. Oh yeah, I’m all tore up.     By the bye, what’s the diffference between ignorance & stupidity?

The ignorant have not yet encountered a particularly loathsome piece of offal named George.  The stupid support him. Yours in the north Maine woods, Pete Hilton aka The Ent — A person is free only in the freedom of other persons.   W. Berry

Wolfgang he can never be free who allows aphorisms to think for him.

Response:

The humor eluded you, which is understandable because you cut out the signature punch line. oh well? George "understanding he’s misunderstood"

Response:

I think everyone missed the main issue here . . . WADDA YA MEAN its JUST fishing????  Man, it’s FISHING we’re talking about here!! MikeS

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dont you just love the pissing contest? Its just fishing Everyone needs to get a life and enjoy the sport. Relax!  Life is to short. As a newbie I appreciate all  the information I can get. I will then make my decision on other opinions ignorant and un creditable My 2 cents worth — Fly Fisherman With a Fur less Naked Cat named Dub

Response:

I just buried my sister last week . Fishing is super I love it but Lets put things in perspective as to importance in  this life. — Fly Fisherman With a Fur less Naked Cat named Dub

Response:

Kill file nuff said — Fly Fisherman With a Fur less Naked Cat named Dub

Response:

I just buried my sister last week . Fishing is super I love it but Lets put things in perspective as to importance in  this life.

Ow, Larry. That must have been horrible beyond words. My symathies. I hope there’ll be a quiet time this summer, maybe on a river with a line out, when thoughts of your sister come in and make the moment right. I buried my dad last year. The only thing I asked for from his estate was a casting rod. There are lots of such moments, and they’re good. riverman

Response:

Kill file nuff said

I don’t get it. You make this thread’s original post scolding everyone for being petty, then when someone says something you don’t like, you post this petty reply. If you really want to "kill file" someone, just do it in a silent mode. It sounds to me like you don’t have much tolerance for others. Maybe you should just "kill file" all of us and be done with it. Then you can just read your own posts, the opinions of which I’m sure you’ll agree. Tim it’s lonely as a party of one

Response:

Kill file nuff said

Was it something I said? Wolfgang jeez, there’s just no pleasing some people.    :(

Response:

@mcw.edu: Kill file nuff said Was it something I said? Wolfgang jeez, there’s just no pleasing some people.    :(

Dammit, Wolfgang, Larry said "nuff said".  Wasn’t that good enough for you, or do you need to be "nuff saided" a second time. Scott

Response:

Scott Seidman wrote… Dammit, Wolfgang, Larry said "nuff said".  Wasn’t that good enough for you, or do you need to be "nuff saided" a second time.

‘Nuff said. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

Response:

Dammit, Wolfgang, Larry said "nuff said".  Wasn’t that good enough for you, or do you need to be "nuff saided" a second time. Scott

I think this is a "nuff sader." — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

Response:

Dammit, Wolfgang, Larry said "nuff said".  Wasn’t that good enough for you, or do you need to be "nuff saided" a second time.

You guys better be careful. We could be dealing with a "nuff sadist" Tim

Response:

Dammit, Wolfgang, Larry said "nuff said".  Wasn’t that good enough for you, or do you need to be "nuff saided" a second time. You guys better be careful. We could be dealing with a "nuff sadist" Tim

    now, *that’s* funny.  i wish you’d cut this out.  sure is difficult staying pissed at someone with a good sense of humor. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Question:

Bruiser wrote… I forgot to thank Joe Fleischman for the great gifts.  The book went to Charlie who may venture to Northern NM once in a while, and the necks went to Warren, the other birthday guy and a prolific fly tier.

Speaking of which, I owe a thanks to Joe.  The funny thing is that I needed those for my fly swap flies so you will probably be seeing them again soon Joe, in a different form of course. — Warren Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

Response:

Of course, no offense to the Penn’s Clave.  Let me amend by saying: Henry’s Fork will be the mother of all Western Claves. We’re sending our DH to Penns bruce h

Response:

  Personally, the best thing about claving is that now when I read your posts, I can hear your voices. Mu

…and there it is.  summed up nicely mu.  course, a few more and you’ll be hearing their footsteps too <g. jeff

Response:

Jeff,  I’m not sure what brand the Tequila was, but it was good, a Reposado. It came in a brown ceramic bottle with a white picket fence molded into the front.

You seem to have found one I don’t know of.  I’ll look for it on my trip west  I coudn’t read the label with double vision!  You should see the flies I tied though.

Oh, I’ve seen ‘em, and they’re too small to see.

Response:

Wayne Harrison wrote…    ah, the stuff of legends!  it reads wonderfully, and makes us all dream of the fabled henry’s fork, where i will plant the bonnie blue flag of the old north state, come this september.

Every couple of weeks I am going to repost this Wayno.  I am holding you to your pledge of attendance.  I would consider it both an honor and a privilege to fish with you and eagerly look forward to the day.  It would finally ease the disappointment I felt in Ennis. — Warren Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

Response:

Jeff,  I’m not sure what brand the Tequila was, but it was good, a Reposado. It came in a brown ceramic bottle with a white picket fence molded into the front.  I coudn’t read the label with double vision!  You should see the flies I tied though. Tripper,  Last night it started snowing and it’s let up a little but it hasn’t stopped.  We must have been living right because the storm held off for a couple of days. Wayne,  see you at the Henry’s Fork.  I better bring my Nuevo Mexico flag. bruce h I forgot to thank Joe Fleischman for the great gifts.  The book went to Charlie who may venture to Northern NM once in a while, and the necks went to Warren, the other birthday guy and a prolific fly tier. bruce h

Response:

If you ever get the chance and haven’t done so, attend a clave.  I have met lots of great friends this way.  Ain’t the net great?

        ah, the stuff of legends!  it reads wonderfully, and makes us all dream of the fabled henry’s fork, where i will plant the bonnie blue flag of the old north state, come this september. your friend in carolina wayno

Response:

 Personally, the best thing about claving is that now when I read your posts, I can hear your voices.

Ah, now THAT captures it perfectly.  Perfectly. JR

Response:

If you ever get the chance and haven’t done so, attend a clave.  I have met lots of great friends this way.  Ain’t the net great?

It is indeed. Well, we’ll get some pictures posted somewhere soon.

Definitely! Maybe rw’s got some room? We think the Henry’s Fork will be the Mother of All Claves.

Well, maybe the daughter: I’d say the Penn’s shindig has some scary numbers behind it… Thanks for visiting, everyone, I had a blast.

Very cool, thanks for the TR. It sounds like the water clarity wasn’t much of an issue. And you didn’t mention the weather – did George’s snowstorm give the valley a miss? /daytripper (Glad you all had a good trip!)

Response:

If you ever get the chance and haven’t done so, attend a clave.  I have met lots of great friends this way.  Ain’t the net great?

Yes, my friend, it surely is. Everyone has slow days, days when you are obviously catching fewer fish than your friends.

That only happens to me on the rare days that I go fishing. Thanks to everyone for the nice gifts.  Danl brought me a cool bottle of high quality tequila…

What kind was it?

Response:

If you ever get the chance and haven’t done so, attend a clave.  I have met lots of great friends this way.  Ain’t the net great?

No doubt about it (irrespective of Gwen Stefani’s anatomy) Hate to tell you, Mu and Bill, but Monday was the best day.

First time I ever heard *shoulda been here tomorrow* As if in a dream, that fish opened his mouth, the fly slid in, and amazingly was hooked.  In all my days there, that’s never happened for me like that before. Mu CAN throw the whole line with little or no effort.

<g What you might not have noticed from where you were watching is that half the time I was chucking a Teeny 130 – that’s why it looked so easy to make the long casts.  I don’t think I’ve ever thrown a whole floating line. Thanks for visiting, everyone, I had a blast.

Sure was a blast.  I learned quite a bit.  I’ve never fished such small flies.  I saw fish being caught in some water that often I would have overlooked.  I overheard Bruiser talking to Charlie about looking for fish in some shallow spots and that help me pick up a very nice fish one morning while casting towards shore while everyone else near me was casting to the deep water.  Watching people’s individual fishing styles was pretty cool too.  Personally, the best thing about claving is that now when I read your posts, I can hear your voices. Mu

Response:

If you ever get the chance and haven’t done so, attend a clave.  I have met lots of great friends this way.  Ain’t the net great? Everyone has slow days, days when you are obviously catching fewer fish than your friends.  Days like those are particularly noticeable at the San Juan, where the fish are everywhere and so are the fly fishers.  Everyone had at least one day of fewer fish, including me, the host.  Imagine that. There was one exception and anyone who reads ROFF knows who that person is. Willi’s unreal.  We keep wondering when he’ll just get blanked, and in the several days I’ve been lucky enough to fish with him it’s never even been close.  Different rivers, different bugs, different conditions, same result. Willi’s letting go of another fish in that familiar fashion – he leans over, quickly grabs the hook, and releases the fish without touching it.  It’s not really all that amazing that he can nimbly release a three pound fish from a size 24 hook in that manner.  Any one of us would be as good if we’d have practiced it 10,000 times  Steve and I were talking one evening after another mini party in an Abe’s room and when we started talking about all the fish we’ve seen Willi catch we started laughing and continued for quite some time.  His skill is uncanny.  Hopefully I’m not embarassing Willi – he’s a very modest guy. Thanks to everyone for the nice gifts.  Danl brought me a cool bottle of high quality tequila that lasted until my friend Arnie arrived.  He’s the western answer to Pamlico Jim.  Charlie gave me one of those cool Fishpond tippet dispensers, Bob another shirt to replace the one he gave me last year.  Mu brought me some French flies.  Yes, I typed that right.  RW paid for my  accomodations and we had a blast fishing together all over the river.  Warren brought a ton of flies for everyone and two tons of materials.  Sorry if anyone was left out, but I still feel like a zombie. We had two or three dinners at the Sportsman (big burgers).  They have dollar bills, decorated with patron’s grafitti, covering the walls.  Last year in December (actually December 2000) I gave the waitress a dollar with the inscription:  ROFF 2000.  In at least fifteen subsequent visits I’ve failed to spot the dollar on any of the walls – my guess was it got pocketed after the unfortunate situation with our tab last year (which we made good on).  On the first night there, we were waiting for a table, and there it was, on the wall, next to the front door.  Cool. The next morning, as we were leaving the breakfast table, a guy at another table asked me if I was Bruiser and if we were ROFF.  Turns out he’s a lurker from Colorado and that we’ve known each other vaguely for years. Wow.  They were in the room across from us at Abe’s and paid our party a visit later that night, contributing heavily to Warren and Arnie’s hangovers the next day.  Something about Martini’s not mixing well with whiskey, beer, and tequila but the details aren’t important.  They are nice guys and it was fun to meet up with them at the clave. The fishing was a little tougher than usual, especially on Saturday and Sunday, when there were more people and fewer risers.  Hate to tell you, Mu and Bill, but Monday was the best day.  Even on the worst days on that river you can sneak up on a big rainbow and watch it pick adult midges off the surface – deliberately, slowly, selectively.  Bob and I cast to one of these guys without a look.  The fish continued eating real bugs,  undeterred by our artificials.  At one point the fish took a midge from *between* the two dries that Bob drifted over him.  On sunday there was a fish feeding in a similar fashion and indulged me by continuing to feed as I drifted three dry patterns over his head.  First, a tiny griffith’s.  He looked at it, but only came to within an inch and didn’t open his mouth.  Next, I tried a single adult midge parachute pattern.  The fish examined it real close, but again, didn’t open it’s mouth.  Then I remembered a fly that I’d had success with before in a similar situation.  It’s a tiny Adams with no wing, just hackle, given to me by a guide a couple years ago.  As if in a dream, that fish opened his mouth, the fly slid in, and amazingly was hooked.  In all my days there, that’s never happened for me like that before. Everyone seemed to have the spot they really liked.  Charlie’s spot is the slack water at the bottom of the cable hole,  slow current and very selective risers.  That’s also RW’s favorite.   Bob and I like to fish emergers in the Upper Flats.  Willi fishes for risers near the dam with dry flies (or a two inch strip of chamois).  Warren liked the channels between the dam and cable hole.  Danl, as well as Mu and Bill, fished everywhere and with big smiles always.  I’ve never met Mu before and he’s very cool, energetic and friendly.  It’s been said about flyrods on ROFF before, but Mu CAN throw the whole line with little or no effort. Well, we’ll get some pictures posted somewhere soon. We think the Henry’s Fork will be the Mother of All Claves. Thanks for visiting, everyone, I had a blast. bruce h

Response:

Question:

"John Beowulf" wrote… Well, I don’t know about that but last Sunday this kid was fishing in San Francisco Bay and caught, well uh, (gross alert) a human skull. Maby its the old bad boy of the teamsters!

What did he catch it on? –Steve

Response:

I think he was just dead weight, at the end of the line. PatK I thought using chum while fly fishing was considered unsporting??:) Lloyd Heilbrunn

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Joe Fleischman writes: I think he’s in my son’s room under his bed.

Uhuh.  He  was found under Tammy Fay Baker’s make-up! Dave LaCourse

Response:

Dave LaCourse wrote Joe Fleischman writes: I think he’s in my son’s room under his bed. Uhuh.  He  was found under Tammy Fay Baker’s make-up!

The worst part is…he was buried alive! —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

Peter Charles wrote I’m not too sure Hoffa had any *chums*! — Opie     **Psychic To The Recently Deceased** but I’m sure he ended up as chum.

Ironic.  He started out as king.  I knew a morphological change occurred in the life cycle, but I didn’t think a species change was part of the deal. —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

Nope.. concrete waders. That’s where Orvis got the idea for their ‘Bulletproof’ wader series. Herman  Hoffa was pardoned by Nixon in 1971 and disappeared in 1975. wet wading? — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

I know this is away off topic but—.Saw am movie last night about the life of Jimmy Hoffa.Now I am not a student of American history north or south but I was alive and kicking during the Hoffa years.Am I correct in thinking that Hoffa was dead long before Nixon became president so could not have been pardoned by aforementioned president?

Well, I don’t know about that but last Sunday this kid was fishing in San Francisco Bay and caught, well uh, (gross alert) a human skull.  Maby its the old bad boy of the teamsters! -John

Response:

I know this is away off topic but—.Saw am movie last night about the life of Jimmy Hoffa.Now I am not a student of American history north or south but I was alive and kicking during the Hoffa years.Am I correct in thinking that Hoffa was dead long before Nixon became president so could not have been pardoned by aforementioned president?

Response:

Am I correct in thinking that Hoffa was dead long before Nixon became president so could not have been pardoned by aforementioned president?

No. Hoffa was pardoned by Nixon in 1971 and disappeared in 1975. — Charlie…

Response:

No. Hoffa was pardoned by Nixon in 1971 and disappeared in 1975.

I think he’s in my son’s room under his bed. Joe F.

Response:

 Hoffa was pardoned by Nixon in 1971 and disappeared in 1975.

wet wading? — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

Response:

I thought using chum while fly fishing was considered unsporting??:) Lloyd Heilbrunn

Response:

I’m not too sure Hoffa had any *chums*! — Opie     **Psychic To The Recently Deceased**

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I thought using chum while fly fishing was considered unsporting??:) Lloyd Heilbrunn

Response:

I’m not too sure Hoffa had any *chums*! — Opie     **Psychic To The Recently Deceased**

but I’m sure he ended up as chum. Peter

Response:

I know this is away off topic but—.Saw am movie last night about the life of Jimmy Hoffa.Now I am not a student of American history north or south but I was alive and kicking during the Hoffa years.Am I correct in thinking that Hoffa was dead long before Nixon became president so could not have been pardoned by aforementioned president?

Was that the movie starring Jack Nicholson as Jimmy Hoffa? Excellent. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Question:

Some might even prefer celibate Waynos ? TL MC — "Humour is a great comfort in adversity" http://www.mikeconnor.de

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You prefer celibate winters, I assume? — Charlie…

Response:

they do exactly what you do.  hell, you’ve probably had more actual "experience" than many of the advisors posting here. wayno

I don’t know about that, Wayno.  If you ask my wife she’ll tell you most of my fly fishing experience so far is in spending WAY too much money on it:) Tim (I know the kids need to go to college honey…but can’t they work their way through??)

Response:

I usually just use the tippet end of the tapered leader until I change (or lose) several flies and notice the leader getting too short.

The only thing with that is you’re probably into a thicker leader diameter by that time, which might or might not matter.  Plus, if you tie on a tippet from the start, then you know exactly how much you’ve used up (how close to your knot you’ve gotten) If it is a good idea to add tippet from the start, would it be best to use the same tippet size as the leader (i.e. 5X tippet added to a 5X tapered leader) or would it be better to taper it even more by one "X" size?

Either way.  One thing you can do is buy a leader that’s a bit shorter and heavier than you want.  If you want a 9′ 5X, get a 7.5′ 3X or 4X, then tie on 18" of 5X material.  Don’t take the numbers *too* seriously – it’s possible that the 5X tippet from one manufacturer is as thick as the 4X leader tip from another manufacturer, but it should be close enough. Regards, Jeff

Response:

Geez, and I thought a tippet was one of those little tips that Jeff was giving.  Or maybe that was a snippet of a tippet? PatK – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – but can’t figure out what a tippit is? Thanks Adam Adam, A tippet is just that.  A tip to be added to the leader for attaching flys.  You may have purchased an outfit with a tapered leader.  You will find that as you attach flys and replace them, the leader shortens rapidly.  A tippet is tied to the tip of a leader to give a sacrificial attaching point for flys as well as allows you to take the diameter down to the final presentation size for the particular situation. Tippet material is available in various sizes and a length is cut and attached to the leader.  The tippet may be a few inches to several feet long. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Before you buy.

Response:

Geez, and I thought a tippet was one of those little tips that Jeff was giving.  Or maybe that was a snippet of a tippet? PatK

Naw, couldn’t be Jeff.  I don’t think you find that in the glossary of terms in the back of "Fly Fishing for Dummies"! — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Geez, and I thought a tippet was one of those little tips that Jeff was giving

    normally, that would be referred to as "a pantload". wayno

Response:

who the hell would have the gall, or more especially the *time*, to argue with a human faq?

Almost as difficult as trying to document your nubile adventures, eh Wayno? –Steve

Response:

Is it a good idea to attach a length of tippet to a brand new tapered leader before tying on the first fly?

Yes, it is. If you need a 9-foot 6x leader buy a 7.5 foot 4x tapered leader (or 3x, or whatever the leader snobs say), cut a little bit off (kind of nearly up to the taper) and tie on 6x tippet right away. Try to use the same brand of leader and tippet, and throw away your old tippet before you use it up.         This tippette brought to you by,         rw

Response:

Geez, and I thought a tippet was one of those little tips that Jeff was giving    normally, that would be referred to as "a pantload". wayno

Hey, you could keep griping about it, or you could set me straight if I post a pantload – that way the lurking newbies and I might learn something. Regards, Jeff

Response:

Adam, A tippet is just that.  A tip to be added to the leader for attaching flys.  You may have purchased an outfit with a tapered leader.  You will find that as you attach flys and replace them, the leader shortens rapidly.  A tippet is tied to the tip of a leader to give a sacrificial attaching point for flys as well as allows you to take the diameter down to the final presentation size for the particular situation. Tippet material is available in various sizes and a length is cut and attached to the leader.  The tippet may be a few inches to several feet long.

Is it a good idea to attach a length of tippet to a brand new tapered leader before tying on the first fly? I usually just use the tippet end of the tapered leader until I change (or lose) several flies and notice the leader getting too short. I’ve often wondered what most experienced fly fishermen do with a new leader (assuming they don’t tie their own and use store-bought tapered leaders). If it is a good idea to add tippet from the start, would it be best to use the same tippet size as the leader (i.e. 5X tippet added to a 5X tapered leader) or would it be better to taper it even more by one "X" size? Tim

Response:

It is a good idea to add tippet from the start. You may use lighter tippet if your fly size will allow that. Very light tippet on larger flies or weighted nymphs etc is prone to breaking very quickly, so don

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been fishing streams recently and noticing that the last 2-3 feet of my line is sinking.  It is a Cortland 444 WF-5-F line and is about a year old and hasn’t been heavily fished.  Besides cleaning the line, is there anything else I can do to prevent this?….it makes it hard to keep the fly up! Also, what is the best product out there for making the line slide through the guides better? Thanks Dustin Let the line dry out for a good period, and then ensure that the end is sealed with a good waterproof glue or similar, water may be seeping into the core. Otherwise use the cortland line cleaner and dressing. TL MC

Yes, I agree. Check the line to make sure, let it dry and use some line cleaner/dressing. If that doesn’t work, make sure you are mending your line so that that current isn’t pulling it under. DAYGLOW York Team DBE

Response:

I get the same problem with my Airflo 7000, I tried cleaning it and that helped, but I will try sealing it now!

Response:

I have been fishing streams recently and noticing that the last 2-3 feet of my line is sinking.  It is a Cortland 444 WF-5-F line and is about a year old and hasn’t been heavily fished.  Besides cleaning the line, is there anything else I can do to prevent this?….it makes it hard to keep the fly up! Also, what is the best product out there for making the line slide through the guides better? Thanks Dustin

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been fishing streams recently and noticing that the last 2-3 feet of my line is sinking.  It is a Cortland 444 WF-5-F line and is about a year old and hasn’t been heavily fished.  Besides cleaning the line, is there anything else I can do to prevent this?….it makes it hard to keep the fly up! Also, what is the best product out there for making the line slide through the guides better? Thanks Dustin

Let the line dry out for a good period, and then ensure that the end is sealed with a good waterproof glue or similar, water may be seeping into the core. Otherwise use the cortland line cleaner and dressing. TL MC

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I went on an offshore charter in Key West in September, I learned about "brutally hot."  I thought it was bad in NC!  You guys have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer. Uh, not to intrude, but I can speak with absolute authority that the great state of Florida does *not* have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer.  I am happy to report that there is robust competition for miserable summer heat.  Ours is just the dry variety.  Not unlike the kind you would roast a turkey in. Russ Ha. It gets so hot in Florida that you just have to pop your fish in a bucket with potatoes and carrots and onions, along with some water, and in three hours…you have chowda! — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Do not judge a book by its movie! Three hours?  You’re outa your league here, Harry.  That same bucket sitting on my foredeck in July would give the microwave a run for it’s money.  We’re talkin’ Solar Hell of the first order. Russ

Ahh. But the chowda bucket is sitting in the ice bucket… — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Do these white hairs mean I’m turning blond?!?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I went on an offshore charter in Key West in September, I learned about "brutally hot."  I thought it was bad in NC!  You guys have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer. Uh, not to intrude, but I can speak with absolute authority that the great state of Florida does *not* have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer.  I am happy to report that there is robust competition for miserable summer heat.  Ours is just the dry variety.  Not unlike the kind you would roast a turkey in. Russ Ha. It gets so hot in Florida that you just have to pop your fish in a bucket with potatoes and carrots and onions, along with some water, and in three hours…you have chowda! — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Do not judge a book by its movie! Three hours?  You’re outa your league here, Harry.  That same bucket sitting on my foredeck in July would give the microwave a run for it’s money. We’re talkin’ Solar Hell of the first order. Russ Ahh. But the chowda bucket is sitting in the ice bucket… —

Ice?  You can keep ice in the summer?  Ice in the summer doesn’t melt here. As it turns to liquid before your very eyes, what you are in fact witnessing are uncontrollable tears from the pain. Russ

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I went on an offshore charter in Key West in September, I learned about "brutally hot."  I thought it was bad in NC!  You guys have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer. Uh, not to intrude, but I can speak with absolute authority that the great state of Florida does *not* have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer.  I am happy to report that there is robust competition for miserable summer heat.  Ours is just the dry variety.  Not unlike the kind you would roast a turkey in. Russ

You are in AZ, right?  I guess I shouldn’t give FL the sole monopoly. I should say they have the monopoly east of the Miss.  I’ve been to San Antonio and Austin in July and August, and that was quite miserable as well.  I have also been to Sacremento and Sonoma in July. It wasn’t very comfortable there, either.  Sorry to not give credit where it is due.  I guess that’s why Death Valley is out there.  Hot as Hades.   Our summer weather is the sort that your glasses fog up as you step out of your air conditioned house or car.  The humidity causes you to sweat profusely, yet you do not cool off.  Your body’s cooling mechanism doesn’t work because you cannot evaporate any sweat.  When I went to California, it was much hotter, and I no doubt sweated, but I didn’t notice it as much because the sweat would actually evaporate.   I guess the moral is at the end of the day, it doesn’t much matter if you are in CA or NC, you had better drink lots of fluids in the hot months.  Heatstroke doesn’t have a monopoly on geography. Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

Response:

Small word of warning.  I got the bimini with mine and found that certain points were held with screws.  They vibrated loose during the first trailer ride and I almost lost the bimini (which would really have sucked for the tailgater behind me <g).  

<snip And then again, how ’bout a quick-release mechanism triggered from the driver’s seat for those moments when you just can’t take the idiot behind you any more?

Response:

Not the rails.  It was the screws that hold the joints of the bimini frame together.  These are the joints where the frame folds.  I guess they thought it would be too difficult to get bolt tightness light enough to allow the joints to fold, while keeping the nut tight enough to not come off.  Using a regular nut and lock washer, followed by the nylok, allows you to set the inner nut loose enough to allow folding, while tightening the nylok against the inner nut holds it exactly in place. – Bud — Bud Feuless & Miki Magara-Feuless

Response:

I was crossing the Galveston Causeway and coming onto I-45 with Ken and Barbie in a red Mustang tailgating me badly.  I am still not sure if it was Divine or Satanic intervention that made a wooden paddle I had accidentally forgotten in the cockpit of my boat fly out and head right for his windshield.  It just missed him, but scared the crap out of both of us.  I’m very careful about no loose items when trailering now.  Maybe he also tailgates a bit less… – Bud — Bud Feuless & Miki Magara-Feuless

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff; Small word of warning.  I got the bimini with mine and found that certain points were held with screws.  They vibrated loose during the first trailer ride and I almost lost the bimini (which would really have sucked for the tailgater behind me <g).  I replaced them with a bolt with a lock washer, bolt, and nylock cap nut and they’ve never come loose since (5 years). Regards, Bud — Bud Feuless & Miki Magara-Feuless

Thanks, Bud. My dealer is installing the bimini.  I’ll be sure to check how they mount the rails. Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

Response:

Jeff; Small word of warning.  I got the bimini with mine and found that certain points were held with screws.  They vibrated loose during the first trailer ride and I almost lost the bimini (which would really have sucked for the tailgater behind me <g).  I replaced them with a bolt with a lock washer, bolt, and nylock cap nut and they’ve never come loose since (5 years). Regards, Bud — Bud Feuless & Miki Magara-Feuless

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are in AZ, right?  I guess I shouldn’t give FL the sole monopoly. I should say they have the monopoly east of the Miss.  I’ve been to San Antonio and Austin in July and August, and that was quite miserable as well.  I have also been to Sacremento and Sonoma in July. It wasn’t very comfortable there, either.  Sorry to not give credit where it is due.  I guess that’s why Death Valley is out there.  Hot as Hades. Our summer weather is the sort that your glasses fog up as you step out of your air conditioned house or car.  The humidity causes you to sweat profusely, yet you do not cool off.  Your body’s cooling mechanism doesn’t work because you cannot evaporate any sweat.  When I went to California, it was much hotter, and I no doubt sweated, but I didn’t notice it as much because the sweat would actually evaporate. I guess the moral is at the end of the day, it doesn’t much matter if you are in CA or NC, you had better drink lots of fluids in the hot months.  Heatstroke doesn’t have a monopoly on geography.

Yeah, AZ is correct.  Been here most of my life.  The Fall, Winter, and Spring are beautiful, but you pay for them with Summer.  Summers never used to bother me when I was younger, but they get harder to deal with every year.  I do think the dry heat is more tolerable than the wet stuff, but it’s still hot.  Congratulations on your new boat.  I bet you can’t wait to get it wet. Russ

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I went on an offshore charter in Key West in September, I learned about "brutally hot."  I thought it was bad in NC!  You guys have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer. Uh, not to intrude, but I can speak with absolute authority that the great state of Florida does *not* have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer.  I am happy to report that there is robust competition for miserable summer heat.  Ours is just the dry variety.  Not unlike the kind you would roast a turkey in. Russ Ha. It gets so hot in Florida that you just have to pop your fish in a bucket with potatoes and carrots and onions, along with some water, and in three hours…you have chowda! — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Do not judge a book by its movie!

Three hours?  You’re outa your league here, Harry.  That same bucket sitting on my foredeck in July would give the microwave a run for it’s money.  We’re talkin’ Solar Hell of the first order. Russ

Response:

When I went on an offshore charter in Key West in September, I learned about "brutally hot."  I thought it was bad in NC!  You guys have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer. Uh, not to intrude, but I can speak with absolute authority that the great state of Florida does *not* have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer.  I am happy to report that there is robust competition for miserable summer heat.  Ours is just the dry variety.  Not unlike the kind you would roast a turkey in. Russ

Ha. It gets so hot in Florida that you just have to pop your fish in a bucket with potatoes and carrots and onions, along with some water, and in three hours…you have chowda! — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Do not judge a book by its movie!

Response:

When I went on an offshore charter in Key West in September, I learned about "brutally hot."  I thought it was bad in NC!  You guys have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer.

Uh, not to intrude, but I can speak with absolute authority that the great state of Florida does *not* have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer.  I am happy to report that there is robust competition for miserable summer heat.  Ours is just the dry variety.  Not unlike the kind you would roast a turkey in. Russ

Response:

I saw your model Scout yesterday at a dealer’s I was visiting. It certainly fulfilled my expectation as a really good boat, sturdily built, with good finish work and lots of nice features. What kind of performance do you anticipate from the 150? Also, consider a stainless steel framed bimini rather than a tee-top. I’ll be glad to discuss this with you. — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Take a BIG bite out of crime….arrest the Republican Congress.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I did not get the t-top.  It was expensive, and there may be areas that I will fish that I would not want a t-top.  I went with the bimini, mounted on a track.  At the boat shows here in Raleigh, there were about four different top manufacturer’s, so I can always add an aftermarket t-top if I find I use the boat mostly offshore.  The top may also restrict access under some bridges.  Casting with a couple guys in the boat may also get a little "hairy" (no pun intended) with the t-top. As always, Harry, I am interested in hearing your reasons for the boat sans t-top.  An obvious drawback to the bimini vs. t-top is that 360 degree fishability becomes more difficult with the top up. I think it depends on where you fish and how. Florida gets brutally hot in the summer and, if you are fishing, ducking under a bimini provides great relief. The shaded area provided by a tee-top is much much smaller, so that only a couple of fishermen can find relief. If you trailer a lot, you’ll find that the tee-top creates a lot of drag at highway speeds. Tee-tops have a lot of advantages, too, of course. Up on the Chesapeake, most of the fishing seems to be trolling, chum and some bottom, all done from the back of the boat without interference from a bimini. If I want to fly fish and the bimini is down, I can cast in any direction without snagging the uprights of a tee-top. When I went on an offshore charter in Key West in September, I learned about "brutally hot."  I thought it was bad in NC!  You guys have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer.  It would love to find some type of top that is a cross between a t-top and a bimini.  A top that allows 360* fishability, yet is stowable when you need to take it out.  I imagine some sort of t-top with bolted flange connections that you can unbolt when you don’t want the top on.  Ever seen anything like that? Also curious, Harry.  Are you looking at buying a Scout? Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

No. I’m mildly interested in another brand of boat, but the dealer that handles that one also handles Scout and Grady-White. If I were in the market for another center console, I’d give Scout real serious consideration. Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Budget: A method for going broke methodically.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I did not get the t-top.  It was expensive, and there may be areas that I will fish that I would not want a t-top.  I went with the bimini, mounted on a track.  At the boat shows here in Raleigh, there were about four different top manufacturer’s, so I can always add an aftermarket t-top if I find I use the boat mostly offshore.  The top may also restrict access under some bridges.  Casting with a couple guys in the boat may also get a little "hairy" (no pun intended) with the t-top. As always, Harry, I am interested in hearing your reasons for the boat sans t-top.  An obvious drawback to the bimini vs. t-top is that 360 degree fishability becomes more difficult with the top up. I think it depends on where you fish and how. Florida gets brutally hot in the summer and, if you are fishing, ducking under a bimini provides great relief. The shaded area provided by a tee-top is much much smaller, so that only a couple of fishermen can find relief. If you trailer a lot, you’ll find that the tee-top creates a lot of drag at highway speeds. Tee-tops have a lot of advantages, too, of course. Up on the Chesapeake, most of the fishing seems to be trolling, chum and some bottom, all done from the back of the boat without interference from a bimini. If I want to fly fish and the bimini is down, I can cast in any direction without snagging the uprights of a tee-top.

When I went on an offshore charter in Key West in September, I learned about "brutally hot."  I thought it was bad in NC!  You guys have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer.  It would love to find some type of top that is a cross between a t-top and a bimini.  A top that allows 360* fishability, yet is stowable when you need to take it out.  I imagine some sort of t-top with bolted flange connections that you can unbolt when you don’t want the top on.  Ever seen anything like that? Also curious, Harry.  Are you looking at buying a Scout? Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

Response:

I did not get the t-top.  It was expensive, and there may be areas that I will fish that I would not want a t-top.  I went with the bimini, mounted on a track.  At the boat shows here in Raleigh, there were about four different top manufacturer’s, so I can always add an aftermarket t-top if I find I use the boat mostly offshore.  The top may also restrict access under some bridges.  Casting with a couple guys in the boat may also get a little "hairy" (no pun intended) with the t-top. As always, Harry, I am interested in hearing your reasons for the boat sans t-top.  An obvious drawback to the bimini vs. t-top is that 360 degree fishability becomes more difficult with the top up.

I think it depends on where you fish and how. Florida gets brutally hot in the summer and, if you are fishing, ducking under a bimini provides great relief. The shaded area provided by a tee-top is much much smaller, so that only a couple of fishermen can find relief. If you trailer a lot, you’ll find that the tee-top creates a lot of drag at highway speeds. Tee-tops have a lot of advantages, too, of course. Up on the Chesapeake, most of the fishing seems to be trolling, chum and some bottom, all done from the back of the boat without interference from a bimini. If I want to fly fish and the bimini is down, I can cast in any direction without snagging the uprights of a tee-top.

Response:

I saw your model Scout yesterday at a dealer’s I was visiting. It certainly fulfilled my expectation as a really good boat, sturdily built, with good finish work and lots of nice features.

Glad you liked it, Harry.  I looked at boats for a year and stumbled upon Scout at a boat show.  After seeing so many boats, and then getting disgusted with a designer (scratching my head saying, "why in the heck did they put that there?"), the Scout was the answer.   Things are in the right places.  Not only does it have jump seats in the back, it has grab rails for the people in the seat.  That plastic cover for the electronics box?  No need to just toss it in the console and get it all scratched up, Scout machined two pieces of plastic with slots that accept the cover.  Bilge?  You can actually open a small hatch and get your arms down in there to change seacocks, pumps, switches, etc.  Oh, they also gel coat the interior of the bilge (AND the compartment below the console).  Fuel?  No problem.  It holds 92 gallons, plenty for a 20′ CC.  Electronics?  Circuit breakers, not fuses.  Switches?  Mounted on the underside of the aft edge of the console, out of the weather as much as possible. I could go on.  I was, and still am, impressed as hell with the thought and design put into this boat. What kind of performance do you anticipate from the 150?

I tested it with a 150.  The boat, on a river, topped at 51 (boat speedo) with two men and 1/4 tank of fuel.  Here is how Yamaha rates the boat (test performed and certified by Yamaha application engineers): Weight as tested:  3325 lbs (boat, motor, full fuel) Engine:  Yammy, S150TXRW, 150 HP Prop:  13 3/4" X 17", part number 6G5-45978-02-98 Number of people: 2 Seconds to plane:  2.9 Test Conditions: Air temp:  80F Water temp:  74F Elevation:  Sea level Wind velocity:  12 MPH Comments:  test weight included 40 lb battery, fuel, and 50 lb misc. equipment Performance Data: RPM     MPH     GPH     MPG 1000    7.3     1.1     6.6 2000    10.2    2.7     3.7 3000    24.0    7.5     3.2 4000    33.7    12.3    2.7 5000    41.0    13.4    3.0 5400    46.1    15.7    2.0 Speed data gathered with a Magellan GPS receiver. I am not sure if they tested with a t-top or not.  I would guess not. How is that for a manufacturer giving out information?  Another impressive aspect of Scout.  They respond to emails, usually within two or three days.  Not as fast as I would like, but at least they respond. Also, consider a stainless steel framed bimini rather than a tee-top. I’ll be glad to discuss this with you.

I did not get the t-top.  It was expensive, and there may be areas that I will fish that I would not want a t-top.  I went with the bimini, mounted on a track.  At the boat shows here in Raleigh, there were about four different top manufacturer’s, so I can always add an aftermarket t-top if I find I use the boat mostly offshore.  The top may also restrict access under some bridges.  Casting with a couple guys in the boat may also get a little "hairy" (no pun intended) with the t-top. As always, Harry, I am interested in hearing your reasons for the boat sans t-top.  An obvious drawback to the bimini vs. t-top is that 360 degree fishability becomes more difficult with the top up. My list of options include the swim platform, the bow cushion, and bimini top.  I decided against the leaning post.  After fishing for a season, that may change.  The boat comes with a trailerable cover with a three year warranty at no additional charge.  With the t-top, you don’t get a full cover, only a motor cover. I went to the dealer with a big box full of GPS, VHF, antenna, two antenna rail mounts (gps ant., and vhf ant.), fishfinder, and RAM mounts.  I went with the ram mounts to give a horizontal swivel option in addition to the vertical swivel afforded by the factory mount.  The also allows vertical adjustment within the electronics box.  They are slick!  I also thought that if I want to change from my Garmin 128 GPS to a Lowrance 1600 or equivalent in a few years, I won’t have to drill new holes for the electronics.  I have an appointment for 10 am next Saturday to close the deal and hitch up to my new toy. Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

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To me (Richard may/may not agree), it is not as low as you would think

True, I agree, the freeboard is not really that low that I would worry about it.  There are boats with more (GradyWhite) but I prefer the lower sides. The boat does have toeboards

Yes, I forgot about those.  These features a missing on a lot of boats this size and they are very helpful when things get a rock’n. Richard Daines Ledyard, CT http://www.ctol.net/~rdaines/

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Lower freeboard in the aft of the boat has long been considered an important design feature in larger offshore boats, where a swamped cockpit might sink the boat, if the cockpit could hold enough water vs. the reserve flotation in the bow.  I don’t think this is as much an issue with a boat like a Scout that has level flotation, but it is still helpful if you have to clear the cockpit of a greenie, to have the engine above the waterline.  I take my 162 out regularly to 20-30 miles in 2-4′ seas and further when it is calm.  I’ve never taken a drop of spray.  I don’t, however, have kids, though, if I did, they would not come offshore with me without lifevests and swimming lessons anyhow. Good luck! – Bud — Bud Feuless & Miki Magara-Feuless

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The only thing that bothers me about the looks of the Scout is the apparent low free-board. Does this bother anyone but me or is in my imagination. Is a boat with a low free board less safe in offshore conditions?

Absolutely nothing wrong with the Scout’s freeboard unless you are going to have small children in the boat.  Lower sides aft will not be a problem and will certainly aid in boating large, heavy fish.  The boat is self bailing so if, by chance, water does make it over the side, it will drain out quickly. I am glad to see this thread. I was considering the Scout along with the Aquasport, Pro-Line and Sport-Craft

These are all good boats, buy the one that best suits your needs. For me it was a Scout. Richard Daines Ledyard, CT http://www.ctol.net/~rdaines/

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The only thing that bothers me about the looks of the Scout is the apparent low free-board. Does this bother anyone but me or is in my imagination. Is a boat with a low free board less safe in offshore conditions? Absolutely nothing wrong with the Scout’s freeboard unless you are going to have small children in the boat.  Lower sides aft will not be a problem and will certainly aid in boating large, heavy fish.  The boat is self bailing so if, by chance, water does make it over the side, it will drain out quickly. I am glad to see this thread. I was considering the Scout along with the Aquasport, Pro-Line and Sport-Craft These are all good boats, buy the one that best suits your needs. For me it was a Scout. Richard Daines Ledyard, CT http://www.ctol.net/~rdaines/

In my opinion, the freeboard is somewhat decieving on the Scout. There is a downward curve on the top of the gunwale just aft of the seats.  To me (Richard may/may not agree), it is not as low as you would think as you look at the boat on a trailer.  I would guess the freeboard around the jumpseats is about 24".  Take the boat out for a ride where you plan on using it and decide for yourself.  It may bother you, and it may not.  I would recommend making that decision on the water versus on the dealer’s lot. The boat does have toeboards at the bottom of the rod racks, and that is the area where you would lean over to gaff a big fish or release one.  Locking your feet into the toeboards and leaning against the gunwale gives a secure platform for fighting big fish as well. I certainly agree with Richards last statement.  For me, it was also the Scout. Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

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Question:

Some of us C&R types advocate it not to be pompus or to hold the higher ethical ground. I release fish because I like to catch’m more than I like to eat them. Also I want to help manage a finite resourse. I figure if a fish can be caught more then once then its good for the fishery and the fisherman….not the fish. I don’t apologize for killing for sport, but C&R allows me to kill less. Hell golfers kill grass when they golf. I kill insects every day walking down the street. I guess your point is that if you don’t like trout (to eat that is) you have no business fishing. Do you return sub-eatables to the stream? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – – Views on Ethics Astream – (snipped) Ethics.. the ethics of taking your pleasure out of playing with the lives of another being?  If C&R flyfishers actually really, honestly cared all that much about ethics, they would take up hiking or some other activity where their actions are not akin to russian roulette on the life of another being. I know this is a little extreme, but I grow so tired of C&R people attempting to take the moral high road.. but to me, all I see is a bunch of empty justification for getting your enjoyment out of ‘playing’ with the lives of another species. IMHO, there’s far more honor in catching only what you will keep, and keeping a very small, responsible amount. I enjoy reading your writing.. so please don’t take this personally, but C&R is a knee-jerk response to a real problem.. unfortunately, it isn’t a solution. -Mark/Particle Salad Particle Salad/Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad

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Jon Cook: <<…..Well, here we agree. If you are an athiest, if you believe there is no good/evil/morality/ethics in the universe, then you do not owe anybody anything, whether they are a fish, your kid, whatever. Perhaps *that* is why Clinton doesn’t fly fish! Just a thought.

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I’ve followed this debate for a couple of years and I keep seeing the same things rehashed.  Has any of the contributors ever learned anything from it and modified their position to suit, or has this become as ritualized as watching Seinfeld reruns to TV eternity? Moe, you and your cronies argue C&R is immoral, shows lack of respect to animals, ruins the rivers etc.  The Ralphians argue that C&R is merely a tool to be employed or not, depending on circumstance.  Morality is irrelevant.  Someone with a Classical education can help me out here, but weren’t there two characters who were condemned for eternity to battle each other.  Well these guys should step aside for we have two new candidates for the job. There is no endgame to this, and maybe that’s the point.  It’s become a Seinfeld substitute.  In chess, repetitive moves can be ruled a stalemate. What else do we have here, but that.  Isn’t it about time somebody recognized that the other side may have made a valid point or two?  If there is no growth, no development in this debate, it just becomes a Usenet WWF tag team match, Moe and the Fish Breaths vs.. Ralphie and the Barbless.  No time limit, no falls, no referee, and eventually no audience. There’s no point me adding my two cents worth on the subject.  Somebody would just misrepresent it and go off on another tangential rant.  We already need half the farms in Iowa just to provide the hay for all the straw men that get built around here.  Can’t anyone see any merit in what the other side is saying, or have you dug your bunkers so deep, you can’t see out of them? KRR — remove nospam from Email address

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: :       well, now, jon, let’s think about that position for a moment. : i have known scores of folk who are either atheists or agnostics or : non-christians who both talk the talk and walk the walk in the theatre : of decent relationships with their fellow man just as well as "god : fearing christians, etc." Absolutely, me too. (btw, I only said atheist, so what the other groups have to do with anything, I don’t know). I only assert that it is impossible to tell an atheist they have a moral obligation to something.

You mean all I have to do is become an atheist and I can keep or release as many fish as I want to.  (In the words of Homer Simpson… WHOO HOO!)  I’m switchin’  :-) Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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: : ok so what is the problem that c&r is not the answer to? More anglers selfishly catching more than they should..

_______ THIS!  Is exactly the point Johnathan.  That I CAN Catch & Release 8 or more fish a day when I could have killed a limit of 6 instead and quit and gone home, IS just the point. If I can, as a sportsman, catch and release twenty, thirty, or more fish a day and not kill a one, THAT IS THE POINT. Selfish?  You bet.  What’s wrong with the word selfish?  There is nothing wrong with the word selfish, self interest and entertainment as long as that activity does  not demean the resource. Here, look at that stream.  It has six fishermen in it and 72 fish in it.  You’re the Seventh fisherman and all six of THEM catch their limit of six fish each, and then go away. You, on the other hand, that day, caught 36 fish and released them all, not hurting a one for another day. The next day, all six fishermen return and repeat the process because ‘the law’ says they may. You come back the third day and there is nothing left for you. Why do you then not see how beautiful  you are? Mr. G. Fishing only becomes by business when I am one and they are two. ? It means, I am only the minority.

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Try these (again !). The South Platte Below Cheesman The Frying Pan below Reudi The Green below Flaming Gorge The San Juan below Navajo . so are you saying that there are fewer fish and the fish are smaller and generally in poorer condition than BEFORE c&r regulations?

gross mismanagement by the States responsible.  First off, the number one enemy to wild fisheries are when the State starts introducing hatchery fish. Next, there are too many fishermen. etc. The answer is to manage a wild fishery as a wild fishery with no catch and kill allowed.  Any fish that is not handled properly, will die and the carcass will be picked up by an eagle, otter, etc.  BUT what won’t happen is the hand of man will not be allowed to fill an ego.  EGO destroys the size of the breeding stock than anything else. Where a section of stream could handle one catch and kill fisherman a month,  the same stretch can handle many more fly fishermen a week that catch and release. I can promise everyone that barbless hooks are one of the most exciting aspects to catch and release fishing in a century of inventions. Here, we fly fishermen will lose more then what comes to hand, but that we can hook up and get a wiggle or a leap or two before the majority of the fish get free – is reward enough.  This is why I always tell my guests,  "That you at least hooked up and got a turn or one leap, we regard as a fooled fish and caught if it had a barb." How would you like to fish.  With or without a barb?  If you catch and release? Mr. G.

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____ snipped some good stuff: the only solution that satisfies my hopes for my kids is a middle ground, boring as that stand might be:  be moderate in your days on the water. be moderate in the numbers of fish you catch.  kill only what you want to eat.  and then post a literate description of your experience on roff so us poor rednecks in the appalachians can vicariously enjoy the feeling of a 20 inch rainbow on the business end of a 7.5 thomas & thomas.         wayno

for bigger trout and/or fish like Steelhead Wayne? arrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggh!   But I’ll do it. You can fish with anything out west you want to as long as its nine feet or more. 8′ 11” ’s won’t do. ; ) Mr. G.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip the only solution that satisfies my hopes for my kids is a middle ground, boring as that stand might be:  be moderate in your days on the water. be moderate in the numbers of fish you catch.  kill only what you want to eat.  and then post a literate description of your experience on roff so us poor rednecks in the appalachians can vicariously enjoy the feeling of a 20 inch rainbow on the business end of a 7.5 thomas & thomas.        wayno well said wayno….. btw…. i never thought I’d be happy to see a return to roff of this timeless debate, it sure beats the g-wars. –Wataugan Walt p

Mr. G.

Response:

: : ok so what is the problem that c&r is not the answer to? More anglers selfishly catching more than they should.. : Who or what says I owe a fish these kind of ethical/moral considerations?   Well, here we agree. If you are an athiest, if you believe there is no good/evil/morality/ethics in the universe, then you do not owe anybody anything, whether they are a fish, your kid, whatever.

        well, now, jon, let’s think about that position for a moment. i have known scores of folk who are either atheists or agnostics or non-christians who both talk the talk and walk the walk in the theatre of decent relationships with their fellow man just as well as "god fearing christians, etc."  a human being’s treatment of fish, as an animal or a golf ball, may have nothing whatsoever to do with that individual’s philosophy or religion.         this response is not meant to imply that i am directly opposed to your position on what a man does to fish when he tries to catch them.  i just want to make sure that if you posit that only "good people" c&k, then you and i have a difference of opinion. (snip)         wayno

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Is it just me or has anyone else noticed how Jon and Timbo follow my posts as certainly as Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum? [deleted] He’s using "The Chubakka Defense" again ! — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

I resent that! I do not chubakka! I think it’s a disgusting and unhealthy habit. Besides my wife wouldn’t tolerate the spitunes! Ralph H

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Is it just me or has anyone else noticed how Jon and Timbo follow my posts as certainly as Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum? 8^) : : ok so what is the problem that c&r is not the answer to? More anglers selfishly catching more than they should..

oh so that’s the problem Mr Salad was talking about? : Who or what says I owe a fish these kind of ethical/moral considerations?   Well, here we agree. If you are an athiest, if you believe there is no good/evil/morality/ethics in the universe, then you do not owe anybody anything, whether they are a fish, your kid, whatever.

atheism does not equal amoralism. (BTW I officialy consider myself agnostic – I suspect there is a god but I have no idea what shape it takes – I suspect as people this shape is beyond our comprehension – but I have real trouble with the idea – since by definition it is beyond…) So you can put your prejudices away. I’d also say God’s expression and resolution of ethical and moral issues is perplexing to say the least. If you believe that man *does have* some sort of prescribed relationship to animals, that the term "animal abuse" can be meaningful in a moral or ethical way, then you have to decide what the ramifications are to that. It might involve how you fish.

 How might it unless you are a Hindu or animist – even then I don’t believe the ascribe the sort of ethical considerations you might give to fish on some obscure religious basis. I’d ask you to be more specific but I don’t think you can. Anyone else? Mr Salad? Ralph H

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Is it just me or has anyone else noticed how Jon and Timbo follow my posts as certainly as Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum?

[deleted] He’s using "The Chubakka Defense" again ! — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [deleted] I’ve asked before but never got an answer – show me one water where the population of fish were quantitatively and qualitatively (for anglers) worse off after the introduction of c&r. Fuck Ralph… (why don’t ya try to double up on the ridilan [you alzheimeric bot !] Nothing like a good immature ad hominym attack to get this off on the right foot ! <g) Try these (again !). The South Platte Below Cheesman The Frying Pan below Reudi The Green below Flaming Gorge The San Juan below Navajo

And now I come in and ask if the conditions at these places are due to C&R being implemented or due to a population increase in population centers around those area.  Is C&R the cause or the affect? …Continue ad infiniteum… What were we supposed to do?  Blue 22 or something like that? Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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[deleted] I’ve asked before but never got an answer – show me one water where the population of fish were quantitatively and qualitatively (for anglers) worse off after the introduction of c&r.

Fuck Ralph… (why don’t ya try to double up on the ridilan [you alzheimeric bot !] Nothing like a good immature ad hominym attack to get this off on the right foot ! <g) Try these (again !). The South Platte Below Cheesman The Frying Pan below Reudi The Green below Flaming Gorge The San Juan below Navajo . . . Places I wouldn’t fish on a bet.  And I doubt you would either once you realized the score…. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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Try these (again !). The South Platte Below Cheesman The Frying Pan below Reudi The Green below Flaming Gorge The San Juan below Navajo .

so are you saying that there are fewer fish and the fish are smaller and generally in poorer condition than BEFORE c&r regulations? BTW I am accepting all these rivers are strictly c&r – no slots no trophy bags. – excepting of course the San Juan – as has been pointed out you have repeatedly misrepresented the regs on that river. Ralph H

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[deleted] I guess your point is that if you don’t like trout (to eat that is) you have no business fishing.

[deleted] That is correct. Do you return sub-eatables to the stream?

Culling (Selective Harvest) is an ancient form of managing a natural resource. C&R is a 30 year old Knee-Jerk non-solution that allows rod manufacturers to multiply. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

Some of us C&R types advocate it not to be pompus or to hold the higher ethical ground. I release fish because I like to catch’m more than I like to eat them. Also I want to help manage a finite resourse… ? Ethics.. the ethics of taking your pleasure out of playing with the lives of another being?  If C&R flyfishers actually really, honestly cared all that much about ethics, they would take up hiking or some other activity where

. but to me, all I see is a bunch of empty justification for getting your enjoyment out of ‘playing’ with the lives of another species. IMHO, there’s far more honor in catching only what you will keep, and keeping a very small, responsible amount. I enjoy reading your writing.. so please don’t take this personally, but C&R is a knee-jerk response to a real problem.. unfortunately, it isn’t a solution.

ok so what is the problem that c&r is not the answer to? C&R is hardly a knee jerk response but has evolved over a period of generations. For generations it’s been accepted to let some fish – they are too small, they’re spawning, they are the wrong species. Some fishers then realized they could let many more go and provide more fish for themselves and for others tomorrow and the next year and in the next generation. Look at the results –  in many cases it worked – waters empty of mature fish repopulated with fish of all age classes. It’s hard as an angler to accept arguments that those populations of fish are worse off because of c&r. I’ve asked before but never got an answer – show me one water where the population of fish were quantitatively and qualitatively (for anglers) worse off after the introduction of c&r. C&R is a technique or tool – neither particular ethical or unethical in and of itself. As in most aspects of life ethical issues in fishing are not black and white as you seem to portray. Some examples; a recent email from a fisherman in England said tho’ the minimum size limit on his local waters is 7 inches he doesn’t kill anything under 9. Haig-Brown wrote he had a personal limit of 14 inches for much of his angling life on Vancouver Island when during that time the legal limit varied from 8 inches to nil. Are these anglers ‘playing’ with the life of other beings? How different are their rules from c&r? If there is a defined point where conservation says to release or kill how can anyone do otherwise without ‘breaking’ your ethical boundaries into sadism? What of other anglers who impose such limits on themselves? Who sets the limits and decides what’s the ethical and what is not? Do we want legislated morality that says we can only fish to kill and must kill what we catch? And of course this gets back to the question I posed some time ago and recently you Mr Salad – Who or what says I owe a fish these kind of ethical/moral considerations?   Ralph H

Response:

- Views on Ethics Astream – Ernie Schwiebert said it as well as anyone in Matching the Hatch. "The angling sportsman does not need dead trout or fish in his basket to feel satisfaction. He has long since proved to himself that he can catch trout and needs no proof for his companions. He does not fear the ridicule of others, for he knows that he could fill his limit if he wished. He counts as his highest reward the number of fish put back into the river for another day. He may bring in fish now and then if someone has expressed a desire for them, but he loves his fishing far to much to spoil it with wanton killing of the trout." Locating a large steelhead or salmon is the greatest thrill for the angler, for here is an adversary worthy of his skill. He may try for the fish for hours or even days without success, and still return home satisfied. Its not the dozens of fish taken that one remembers, but those few heavy, trophy steelhead taken or lost under difficult conditions we remember best. Just the knowledge that a big fish is present adds flavor to a pool or a secret place. Beginners may ask why one fishes if he is to release his catch. They fail to see that the `live steelhead’ or trout sucking in the fly and fighting the rod is the entire point of our sport. Dead fish are just so much lifeless meat. If food is the reason for fishing, then the fish market is a cheaper place to obtain it. We cannot begrudge the local angler his fish and the limits of the law for these are honorable reasons to fish, but the man who travels hundreds of miles and even thousands of miles to fish the stream is paying $50 for each pound of fish. When one stops to consider his motivation in the light of economics, it becomes obvious that he fishes for the sport and not the meat and more importantly . . . not to display his ego. Consider that the Clearwater and Snake Rivers are some of the finest Steelhead waters in the United States.  It’s a shame that I have yet to see anyone release one steelhead yet and it’s curious in the manner that the fish are kept by almost everyone in the area.  Consider the fact a suffocating demise is a torturous and hideous inconsideration. Here, a fish kept should be killed humanely with a sharp rap behind the head. He should be dressed immediately and his remains thrown away from the river for wildlife, not into the river. Again, as Ernie Schwiebert has so well put it, in his book Matching the Hatch, "The subject of etiquette along a river is difficult, for I hesitate to preach about sins that have been mine in the past. The regard for the rights of others is of primary concern and the inconsiderate fellow who shoulders in when you have taken a fish, wades through the water you are fishing, or the rafter who does the same, or proceeds to cast over the fish that you are working, is a thoughtless boor. There is no caste system on trout waters. The fish will rise to the crude fly dappled by the backwoods native as well as to the daintily imported one cast by the wealthy financier." Specific rules in angling etiquette are few, and common courtesy is the basis. It is poor form to enter a stream not far above another if he is fishing in that direction. The skillful angler doesn’t disturb the water much, but the beginner is likely to frighten the fish and put them down for some time. The large power-boat-owner that does not keep an gentleman’s eye upon the banks for wading fisherman or tube fisherman and who recklessly and wantonly allows his massive boat’s wake to attack the innocent people is quite simply, an ass and is a lawless, loose-cannon that cares little for the lives or safety of others fishing or using the joys a river provides. One should realize his own capabilities and enter the stream at a discreet distance above or below another man. The first man in the river has the right of way and we should not disturb his fun for he would most likely not disturb yours. Noticing your kindness is more apt to bring an invite and win you a lifelong friend, for along the river you are bound to find the best of mankind. As a matter of tradition the man wading upstream has the right of way, since the gentleman coming down is more likely to spoil the former’s chances. The one wading down should retire from the water and move unobtrusively around him. Often the inconsiderate will acknowledge the right of way and then wade noisily past or walk along in plain view of the fish. Don’t do this. Rafters, kayakers, drift boats and power boats should go behind the wading fisherman at a good distance, as they will pass in only a few seconds but the fisherman is left with nearly a half hour before his spooked fish return. I consider this thoughtlessness intolerable for some men will wade into position in the presence of a fish of a lifetime in almost impossible water and to a rafter the same water is a breeze. On the other hand, just because there is a rafter-kayaker-boater on the river doesn’t mean that the fishing is ruined just in his passing. But that the passing should be a pleasant experience for all parties concerned and not just one-sided, is the point.  Power boaters should always keep in mind that a fisherman wading is a "No Wake Zone." In being a writer, I want to capture the interest of as many as I possibly can. But to say that I’m here to win a popularity contest is a misconception, regarding fishing.  However, the Snake and Clearwater Rivers are fantastic, original and unique resources in this area around Clarkston Washington and today, they are but a whisper of what they once were in the past. Yet, their recreational powers are awesome and in this expanding population of America the use of their recreational attributes are on the increase as the quality of life of the rivers decrease.  We lack disaplines all across this nation with all our rivers and streams. We . . . you . . . and I, have long realized how precious our rivers are. The income that the Snake and Clearwater Drainage’s pulls into our area amounts in the millions of dollars each year. Behavioral examples we set will be the same examples others will follow in the future when it comes to river etiquette’s and their care.  Each fly fisherman must always ‘regard’ the quality of his waters and vanguard them. Many waters we fish are bordered by private property and we should respect that.  However;  cattle and livestock have little sanitary excuses, to be down by these rivers because it’s well known their filthy, polluting ways are not tolerated well by many forms of wildlife.  Cattle however, can be easily frightened and stampeded by the thoughtless angler with a resultant loss in weight or chance of injury. One ill-tempered bull can wrong many rights here . . . so shy away from cattle,  if you can, until they can be moved away from the river by authorized personnel when they are in areas they do not belong in.  Like it or not, there are too many ranchers that push the tolerance envelopes of common sense and who literally steal  habitat not belonging to them or the cattle they let roam, many times, irresponsibly. The hardest article to write is this kind because it can sound so quickly as if one is preaching. Some landowners who allow fishing build gates or stiles for fishermen to cross their fences, but then there is always some anarchist who carries wire-cutters or pliers to pull the staples. We can hardly blame the owners of posted land in some instances – but there is no law against landowners who never cared about sportsmen in the first place either.  When kindness is shown, we need to safeguard and protect those accesses to rivers passing through private properties.  Yet, the laws of propriety state that if we allow grazing on public lands at great monetary advantage to the Rancers, the habitat destruction and over-grazing they incure upon US as a society does not give them the right to be inconsiderate of gentle anglers wishing simply to savor trout waters shut off to them by fences and in many cases, illegally. The cardinal sin so often committed is the disfiguring of water or the land along it and we know today that the majority of it is done by people who are twenty five years of age and younger. A large majority still being in school . . . like it or not.  The younger generation today cannot keep clean even their bedrooms let alone being able to wear their pants above the crack of their ass. They seem to continue the contents and conditions of their bedrooms into the out-of-doors and it’s a national disgrace their parents allow such bedrooms which are their own report cards of undisciplined children to exist but it is our fault we let them disgrace the outdoors. The refuse that litters the rivers and adjacent beaches and campsites if often quite astonishing. But recent field trips prove the road-sides to contain much more trash than our local beaches do. In Hell’s Canyon, where the beaches are provided trash containers, the public uses them. But along the road on the Snake River where they are NOT provided, the roadside is a pig-sty. I cannot think of anything that makes the general public (who are by the majority,  clean) more irritated than to see a beer hog throw his can down. I guess, I can say it makes me annoyed too. I’ll admit that. Yet, if I let the hot flash pass, I have that big pocket in the back of my vest and I always try and bring two cans out every time I go to the river. It isn’t much, but we won’t have to look at it the next time we go back. Our Clearwater and Snake Rivers and ALL Rivers and Streams will continue to please many of us if we remember  a thought Isaac Walton wrote in 1653. "He that hopes to be a good angler must not only bring an inquiring, searching, observing wit; but he must also bring a large measure of hope and patience." In these days of hard-fished waters, ethics and philosophy play an ever increasing role in our enjoyment, and to Father Walton’s measure of hope and patience, let me add the spice … read more »

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was posted fragmented, but I will leave it alone because everyone should beable to get the gist of it.  My apologies. gg – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – todemean the subject matter at hand.  Ernie is a friend of mine as are everyone of you here are.  I’ve seen and done maybe something that wasn’t classy, but so have I seen the best of men screw up.  These events are not the litmus paper high marks that define a man’s life Ernie, and you know it. Ernie Schwiebert has had a terrific impact on the behavior of fly fishermen astream just because of his book "Matching the Hatch."  I don’t need confirmation of this fact from anyone because I have seen how dynamic his writings and works have been on our sport and the majority of his work has all been positive.  To my mind, after Lee Wulff died, the next icon that has the stature and body of work that is of a positive force is Ernest Schwiebert.  There is no questioning the sincerity this man brings to our streams.  We are fortunate to have such a genius that fly fishes, among us. I don’t expect  you are a great body of the men here to agree with me.  There was a period of a feeding frenzy regarding Ernie several years back and it had nothing to do with holding up a preserved fish.  Mr. Schwiebert has already mentioned that he is slow to talk about indiscretions that he may have committed himself in the past. Now what do we do?  Hit  him with this sort of inventory taking again, and again, and again?  I think not. I know this about Ernie Schwiebert.  Of late and I know he is still working on it, he has put his name and monetary fortune on the line fighting the corruption that had infested the guiding and booking agents there.  Mr. Schwiebert and company, some of which might be reading this group now, had guns pointed at them and the story is a complicated one.  Mr. Schwiebert will be the first to tell me I shouldn’t be talking about this here . . . but this is the kind of man he is.  He is fighting legal issues in Russia so we Americans can enjoy that which is basically corrupt. The Russian Government has been patient and are listening with interest to the case. This is a financial costly process and who is doing it for us?  Ernie Schwiebert. Frankly, he can kill a fish now and then all he wants.  BUT!  I understand your point Ernie Harrison and it is a good one.  Let’s not use it however to demean the man nor the good intent Ethics Astream is supposed to bring into our lives. Keep the fly in the ring of the rise. Sincerely, George Gehrke

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– Views on Ethics Astream –

(snipped) Ethics.. the ethics of taking your pleasure out of playing with the lives of another being?  If C&R flyfishers actually really, honestly cared all that much about ethics, they would take up hiking or some other activity where their actions are not akin to russian roulette on the life of another being. I know this is a little extreme, but I grow so tired of C&R people attempting to take the moral high road.. but to me, all I see is a bunch of empty justification for getting your enjoyment out of ‘playing’ with the lives of another species. IMHO, there’s far more honor in catching only what you will keep, and keeping a very small, responsible amount.   I enjoy reading your writing.. so please don’t take this personally, but C&R is a knee-jerk response to a real problem.. unfortunately, it isn’t a solution. -Mark/Particle Salad Particle Salad/Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad

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I hate to burst your bubble but Schweibert was holding a large dead trout for a picture which appeared with his article in a fly fishing magazine. The caption said the trout was released back to the river, but the eyes said "Dead Fish" and I later heard that it had been frozen for a week so he could have his picture taken with it.   I wrote a letter to the magazine saying and said Mr. Schweibert should not pollute our rivers with dead fish, but never received a reply. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – - Views on Ethics Astream – Ernie Schwiebert said it as well as anyone in Matching the Hatch. "The angling sportsman does not need dead trout or fish in his basket to feel satisfaction. <snip I am haunted by memories. Ethics in our lives makes them more perfect. gg

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– Views on Ethics Astream – [deleted] Ernie Schwiebert said it as well as anyone in Matching the Hatch. "The angling sportsman does not need dead trout or fish in his basket to feel satisfaction.

[deleted] Ernie Schwiebert never envisioned a hundred fly fishermen whoring his beloved frying pan. (My friend who is a licensed outfitter on the frying pan had [last week] a woman client pose topless with an 8 inch rainbow she had caught (then released) for a photograph.   This is what contempt for wildlife catch and release brings to the sport Ernie, George. I can no longer set forth with a clean conscience in those hallowed waters fouled by greed). Ernest Schwiebert had no idea to what level man in his greed would prostitute this notion (Bassmasters, One Fly…perhaps the worst of all "The Walleye Trail"). I doubt that (seeing these things) anyone could today preach this ill-founded ("Matching The Hatch", 1953) notion as some kind of manifest ethical destiny of the sport. C&R is not the bastion of sporting ethics you mistakingly believe it to be George. You are not the kingpin of ethicity you claim to be and I can prove it. The beautiful rainbow that you hold proudly on the photo at www.gink.com, …. Is the scale so slight that we can not see a creature that had just fought his lifes battle is now gasping to breathe in a suffocating foreign environment whose internal organs are crushing themselves as you hoist it one handed to be photographed ? Releasing it (whether it lives or not) wipes clean the slate for you ? What then of Ernest’s words "He has long since proved to himself that he can catch trout and needs no proof for his companions", can you (given your product, your website, this photograph) honestly claim to stand up to your own (Ernest’s) ethical standards ? Is the lens of our bias so out-of-focus that we can no longer see nor feel the error in this philosphy? Is the man that promotes the ’sport’ of fishing, perhaps, is the most unethical sportsman of all?. A fisherman launches his dory on an abandoned Maine beach seeking to catch fish to eat, to feed his family, or too sell.  No desire to simply catch a fish, photograph it for publicity.  He has no website with his picture on it. Aware of his role in nature, his requirement to respect nature and wildlife.  The unwritten contract of mankind.  Where we need to evolve to. This man, he is less ethical than you because he is just a ‘fisherman’ and not a ’sports-fisherman’? On his way home, "The Enlightened Ones" [standing in the surf with equipment worth more than some peoples cars] they can feel justified in shouting "why did you kill those fish ?" in some kind of Schwiebertesque chorous because they read your post on the internet or they thump "Matching The Hatch" as some kind of ‘bible’ ? Try Ernest’s half-logic on some rube, George. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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Question:

I have an e-mail freind who lives in Michigan who would like to join a fly fishing club ! She lives in Ann Arbor area ! Please e-mail me any info you have or may be a small list of shops in the area which are recommended? General question ; Is there a site on the WEB which lists Fly Fishing clubs and or organizations ie. FFF Trout Unlimited ect. ??? Thanks in advance Rich Lob Left Coaster Livermore Fly Fishers

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Check with MacGregors in AA 616-761-9200. I think a TU group meets at their fly shop. Ann

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The Ann Arbor chapter of Trout Unlimited is going to meet at Community High School, starting next month.  The meetings are usually on the third Wednesday night of the month.  Carl Heuter is the current president (in the A2 phone book), and MacGregor’s is another good place to get the meeting information.

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Question:

Several flyfishing folks in the Northeast Texas area are interested in organizing a FF club and  have ‘kinda’ elected me to put it together.  If anyone has any experience in organizing or even being a member in a FF club I could use some (all) of your guidance.  We would like to have it somewhere between a beer bust in the back yard and formal reading of the minutes etc. Thanks for any help! Knack Whitehouse, TX

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Several flyfishing folks in the Northeast Texas area are interested in organizing a FF club and have ‘kinda’ elected me to put it together.  If anyone has any experience in organizing or even being a member in a FF club I could use some (all) of your guidance.  We would like to have it somewhere between a beer bust in the back yard and formal reading of the minutes etc. Thanks for any help! Knack Whitehouse, TX

Hi Knack Contact the Federation of Fly Fishers at 800-618-0808 and ask for their "Forming a Club" literature.  The information is straight forward and easy to follow. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

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Southern council of FFF (includes TX) has a web site: http://www.sky.net/~flyfish/ There are several small/local clubs affiliated with FFF. I don’t know the economics of the affiliation, but there might be something for you there. John Nesselrode Shawnee, KS

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