Question:

   It’s been a 20 year family tradition among my in-laws to go camping in the Cedar Grove area of Kings Canyon National Park at least once a year. This past Memorial Day weekend I headed up there on Thursday to secure a campsite while the rest of the family joined me on Friday evening.

Thanks Mu, nice report. I live less than a couple hours from this area, but have never fished it. I will now. Thanks again brians PS many miles downstream of the Upper Kings, so much water is diverted for irrigation, that it almost dries up to nothing.

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I live less than a couple hours from this area, but have never fished it. I will now.

The few fly anglers I met did say they caught fish too.  In 20 years of camping there my father-in-law told me he never saw anybody catching any fish.  A competent spin or bait angler should do very well but most people seem content to soak their bait at the bottom and wait for the fish to never come. Mu

Response:

 Nice description, Mu.  I tend to think of CA as a place  where all of the free-flowing water of any significance  is long-gone, so I am always surprised by a report like  yours.

well once this water reaches the low lands, it is dammed for agriculture nad drinking water.

Response:

nice report……nice to hear there is still an abundance of water…somewhere out there….   richard colorado . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    It’s been a 20 year family tradition among my in-laws to go camping in the Cedar Grove area of Kings Canyon National Park at least once a year. This past Memorial Day weekend I headed up there on Thursday to secure a campsite while the rest of the family joined me on Friday evening.    I did manage to fit in a whole day of fishing on Friday along with a few more hours on Sunday afternoon.  A foot of snow had been on the ground

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I loved the report… been thinking about heading up that way…

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Great report – thank you. Now I have to go again and take the main squeez. When I use to fish various forks of the Kings sometimes it would be a day before my hearing would come back. When the river use to run high we found fish in the smallest creeks and rivelets, they seemed to small to have fish but they did. . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  snipped most enjoyable report

Response:

   It’s been a 20 year family tradition among my in-laws to go camping in the Cedar Grove area of Kings Canyon National Park at least once a year. This past Memorial Day weekend I headed up there on Thursday to secure a campsite while the rest of the family joined me on Friday evening.    I did manage to fit in a whole day of fishing on Friday along with a few more hours on Sunday afternoon.  A foot of snow had been on the ground in some portions of the park just a few days earlier, but it had melted by the time I arrived.    The temperature was unusually warm during the holiday weekend and the water levels were rising each day.  It is not unusual for blizzards to occur even in May in this particular national park, which John Muir had claimed matched Yosemite in grandeur and beauty.    The South Fork of the Kings River races through the Cedar Grove area year round.  I’ve been here in early September and even then this river is barely wadable.  Much of the river was a raging whitewater froth during my trip last month.  Even the tributaries looked angry enough to drown a whale.    The pools that are visible during low water periods were completely hidden under the plunging rapids.  I’d hate to even think about what this river would look like in May after a wet winter.    On Friday I drove to the Road’s End, a popular take-off point for backpackers and day hikers, located at the terminus of highway 180. Hiking in about 2 miles along the north side of the river took me to a bridge which crosses the South Fork where it is joined by Bubbs Creek.    I walked back towards Road’s End along the south side of the river until I came upon an area where the river split into several smaller side channels which were on the north side.  At this point I foolishly attempted to cross back over to the north side.  The water which looked about knee deep was actually waist deep.  Once I was past the knees however it was too late.  The river lifted me off my feet and I was headed towards the ocean.  With great difficulty I did manage to tiptoe to the other side about 30 yards downstream from where I had started. Fortunately, there were no deep pools in this area.  (Those new Chota STL studded wading boots are great!)    I fished the side channels and picked up a few dinky rainbows on a cinnamon caddis.  I did spot stonefly husks on some of the rocks but in general this river does not appear to be too fertile.  The insect activity seems to be predominantly of the caddis sort.  Sometimes, skittering my fly would trigger a strike.    Eventually I met up with the main river again.  Much of the fishing for these small and wild rainbows was quite easy.  Trying to find a place to fish where one could avoid drowning was not so easy.    Basically I’d scramble through the brush for about 20 minutes until I found a large boulder.  Several fish would be congregated there.  A poorly drifted nymph would almost definitely result in a hookup.  Sometimes, even a second fish could be lured out of a particular pocket of water.  But that was it.  Typically, after the first fish was caught, the rest of them would go hide under a rock.    The colors of these fish were brilliant and their eagerness was well appreciated by this angler.  I didn’t mind that they were small; I mean I could catch fish like these even locally here in southern Califronia. But the scenery in Kings Canyon really is spectacular.  After wearing out my welcome at one boulder, it was a 20 minute hike until I found another likely looking spot.  And that’s how the day went on for several more enjoyable hours.    Sunday afternoon I was walking around the area known as Zumwalt Meadow which is also near the vicinity of Road’s End.   I found an extremely large deadfall and for several yards, the water behind it almost appeared to be like a regular river instead of the South Fork.  It looked interesting so I decided to see what would happen to a #14 Parachute Adams.  In spite of the large downed tree, the water was still moving rather swiftly though this area and frequent mending was necessary.    What a surprise when I pulled out a feisty little jumping brown trout. I caught several more browns in that little run.  Unlike the rainbows in the pocket water, these fish did not spook after one of their brethren was hooked and flailing wildly in their vicinity.  Since National Parks are not stocked with fish, these must be the descendants of some browns that were introduced many decades ago.    All in all an enjoyable trip.  Good mix of fishing days and hiking days and lots of wood-fired steaks. Mu

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Question:

Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes.  God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick.

of course, you don’t live in washington state and have to watch the local s(news)…. this is all we’ve been hearing about and what we’ll be hearing about til the next disaster <G. i’m glad they’re back…. but i’d like to see the media give them a little bit of a break so they can have some real private time with their families and loved ones. chris

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Dave, not trying to judge your age here, but by any chance were you one of those guys that got out of the draft during vietnam? I only say this because you seem to have such disdain for the military. I think I understand your disgust with the overdramatization in which military people attribute to their jobs….I did a 6 year stint in the Navy myself, and enjoyed it, but I find that too often fellow vets are just too quick to point out the fact that they served. It’s almost like they’re rubbing it in others’ faces. I have followed the plight of the aircrew held in China with some interest. I feel that the government/military is making way too big a deal of this, for publicity’s sake, than should be. All that said…I do respect the simple fact that being hel captive in a foreign communist country, no matter what the accomodations (in this case very plush) and treatment, would be a scary and dangerous situation to be in (history tells us this). For that, sure, let’s have a parade and welcome these folks home (especially if they were able to destroy any sensitive equipment on that plane before it went down).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes.  God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick. Dave Dave

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Dave, not trying to judge your age here, but by any chance were you one of those guys that got out of the draft during vietnam?

Uhh, Mark,  Dave is a retired Navy Chief, a career military man who is justifiably proud of his service. Ken is the one who wrote the anti military diatribe. You really need to follow these threads a little more carefully before replying, or else get some asbestos skivvies to protect you from the flames.  Just a little friendly advice. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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Ahhh…my apologies for my mistaken left-click, especially to Dave.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave, not trying to judge your age here, but by any chance were you one of those guys that got out of the draft during vietnam? Uhh, Mark,  Dave is a retired Navy Chief, a career military man who is justifiably proud of his service. Ken is the one who wrote the anti military diatribe. You really need to follow these threads a little more carefully before replying, or else get some asbestos skivvies to protect you from the flames.  Just a little friendly advice. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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Dave, not trying to judge your age here, but by any chance were you one of those guys that got out of the draft during vietnam? I only say this because you seem to have such disdain for the military.

Wow, whatever you are smokin is worth every damn nickel you paid! Wolfgang and doubtless dave would love to share it      :)

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… This is a welcome home for a group of Americans …

And much ado about nothing in my book.  … He, like many of us, were expressing a collective sigh of relief, that these men and women returned home to the ruffles and flourishes of the National Anthem and not the saddening strains of Taps.          Frank Reid, MSgt, USAF (Ret)

He and many of you can express your collective sighs elsewhere as far as I’m concerned, Frank. And I’m not impressed by alphabet soup after a man’s name. My younger brother was in the Marine Corps for twenty years, I’m not completely unfamiliar with things military. The military is a necessary evil not a sacred cow and I’m far more impressed with the guy who teaches inner city kids to read than I am with the guy flying spy planes off the coast of China. — Ken Fortenberry

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Ken,     How ’bout teaching English and math to kids inter-battle zone in Bosnia, where there is a cleared path in the minefield to get to the old warehouse to teach?  How ’bout doing this for free?     How ’bout whole National Guard units that volunteer as a group to drop their jobs and run off to Central America to spend their days humpin sacks of flour to help hurricane victims?     How ’bout spending four nights a week and all day Saturday teaching English, math and biology to Korean orphans who are ostracized because they don’t have parents?  The tutors won’t help, the city won’t help, their own teachers won’t help.  Again, done free, for a year, gratis.  Person’s boss didn’t even know about it.     These are anecdotal.  They are all true. They are all military members. The U.S. military is second only to firefighters in time spent doing volunteer work.  In a lot of towns, those firefighters are military.  You profess to understand the military.  I won’t gainsay that.  Why do you join an organization of computer proffesionals?  Could it be that you identify with those who share your understanding of nibbles and bytes?  We, those former military members, identify with the sacrifices that those currently in the military endure.  The funny thing about military folks is that they often blend in with the scenery.  The are members of ACM, ROFF, but they still identify with their common core of experience in the military.  MSgt Ret is alphabet soup.  However, I only used it since you used ACM. Glass houses my friend.     You, as computer professional, should understand that the U.S. military is not a necessary evil.  It is also not a sacred cow.  It is not that one-dimensional.  However, to trivialize 2.6 million folks to the status of necessary evil is, in and of itself, pretty one dimensional.  It is a group of folks as important as your local fire and police department.  Wherever they go, they try to do some good.  It’s their nature.  They, as a group, will all tell you that they abhor the combat side of their jobs, because, to them, if they have to fight, they’ve failed at peace keeping.     I tell you what, take a group of military folks and ask them to raise their hands if they’ve ever fired a weapon in combat.   Very few hands.  Now ask them if they’ve done 10 or more hours of volunteer work in the last 2 months.  Now ask your computer professional friends if they’ve done 10 or more hours of volunteer work in the last two months.  Hey, it takes a village.  Some of us, i.e. the military have lived in that village all our lives, where others are wandering around screaming that some one should build them one.       Frank Reid – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He and many of you can express your collective sighs elsewhere as far as I’m concerned, Frank. And I’m not impressed by alphabet soup after a man’s name. My younger brother was in the Marine Corps for twenty years, I’m not completely unfamiliar with things military. The military is a necessary evil not a sacred cow and I’m far more impressed with the guy who teaches inner city kids to read than I am with the guy flying spy planes off the coast of China. — Ken Fortenberry

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…     These are anecdotal.  They are all true. They are all military members.

And two members of the US military raped a 12 year old Japanese schoolgirl. Pretty useless to trade these examples, I’ll concede that there are both really nice folks and some of the scum of the earth serving in the military. …  MSgt Ret is alphabet soup.  However, I only used it since you used ACM. Glass houses my friend.

include their email address in their .sig, but if you find it untoward Please remember that this is an international forum and excessive chest thumping by the military regardless of nationality is most unseemly. — Ken Fortenberry

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Ken,      All’s I’m trying to say is that military members are a group of human beings, like educators, like computer professionals.  That’s not chest thumping.  As you said, there are good and bad in every group.  I don’t trivialize any group of people.  To do so is to trivialize all.  To denigrate the work of a group of folks because they are in the military is very small minded.     Oh, by the way, the U.S. is not the only country that has a military. And, oh, by the way, in many countries, the military is a highly respected profession.  Unfortunately, it is mostly in those industrialized nations that have the freedom and wherewithal to be able to afford the time and the money to sit at computers or fly fish.  Wonder if there is a connection there?  Yes, this is an international forum, maybe over the years, you will expand your narrow views to match it.  Now thats chest thumping.     I may not change your mind, but I can try to change your perspective.         Frank

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …     These are anecdotal.  They are all true. They are all military members. And two members of the US military raped a 12 year old Japanese schoolgirl. Pretty useless to trade these examples, I’ll concede that there are both really nice folks and some of the scum of the earth serving in the military. …  MSgt Ret is alphabet soup.  However, I only used it since you used ACM. Glass houses my friend. include their email address in their .sig, but if you find it untoward Please remember that this is an international forum and excessive chest thumping by the military regardless of nationality is most unseemly. — Ken Fortenberry

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…  I don’t trivialize any group of people.  

To call the military a necessary evil is not to trivialize it, by definition necessary is not trivial.     Oh, by the way, the U.S. is not the only country that has a military.

Exactly the point, Frank. To hear some tell it all US actions are noble, honorable and professional and all US military personnel heroes while the only human being to have actually died in this regrettable incident is a "hotdog" who deserved to die. Now that’s jingoism. … Yes, this is an international forum, maybe over the years, you will expand your narrow views to match it.  Now thats chest thumping.     I may not change your mind, but I can try to change your perspective.

Thump away, my friend, but I think my perspective is just fine and the chances of you changing it are nil. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Ken Fortenberry writes: To hear some tell it all US actions are noble, honorable and professional and all US military personnel heroes while the only human being to have actually died in this regrettable incident is a "hotdog" who deserved to die. Now that’s jingoism.

If you saw film of previous flights by Chicoms harassing *legal* flights, you would ulnderstand why the Chicom died.  He "deserved" to die simply because he was harassing another aircraft in international waters when he should not have.  No jingoism or chauvinism involved.  Poor judgement, poor driving skills, lack of common sense, and unnecessary aggression caused his death, and damn near cause the death of *our* aircremen.   As far as this not belonging on roff:  well, it seems like you and only you get to pick roffs contents?  Like "native American" crap and "squaw" crap and other politically correct crap.  As long as the religious and patriotic intolerant Fortenberry says so, it must be so!  Bullshit!  See my hat.  And, MY brother was in the marines too.  What does *that* have to do with anything? Dave

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Ken Whats the fucking big deal? They are American Navy people. They were being held by a foreign power. They got to survive and come home. The West Sound is very Navy. People here care a lot about these things. So they threw a big Welcome home party. The Pacific is a big Ocean – 6 hours from the HI, so when they were 40 minutes out I posted that. Now maybe the desire to celebrate this small victory locally is partly to counter the many recent unfortunate happenings in WA like the Earthquake, the loss of a large fishing crew in the Bering sea last week, Boeing, etc etc. But I think people were genuine in their appreciation for these young people. As for the politics of it – you know that my politics are relatively progressive for this forum. No one would ever mistake me for a conservative. But you also know that I save my strongest disdain for ideology and ideologues right and left. And all know that I loath Bush, still support McCain, think Rumsfeld is dangerous, and am thankful that Powell is there to moderate things, and because of his caution borne of his combat experience. You feeling anti-war? Got anything to say about the Israeli Army abuse of Arab civilians? How about dual citizenship "Americans" called up as IDF reservists for a few weeks of fun in Gaza? Feel like a crusade? I understand there is a boatload of child slaves missing off Benin. Or maybe a little looksee at the status of foreign household domestics in Chambama might be needed. Teaching reading in the inner city? You do not know that probably the largest inner city volunteer tutoring programs are operated by the military. Most ships have such programs. The military is also far ahead of the rest of the country on affirmative action, family involvement and responsibility in the schools, family leave and support, universal medical coverage, equal opportunity, environmental stewardship and a few others. Like my rightwing nemesis, you assume too much. My point being that pissing on a Welcome Home party for some GIs in WA, doesn’t fulfill the monthly dues assignment for even our most peripatetic Naderite. Lighten up. You get the last word if you want it. Dave

Response:

Ken, Is your life a piece of shit? I don’t believe it is. Do you? I believe you are a precious and utterly unique thing, and so am I, along with everybody else. Bottom line: My personal understanding is that people died so I could sit here at this keyboard and type whatever I want. I am grateful for those who have died, and to those who put themselves at risk for this country. I’m happy to see these kids come home and proud of the way they handled their situation. If that’s chest thumping, I’m going to thump my chest every chance I get. You can call it unseemly, call it any fucking thing you want. But ingratitude is worse than unseemly, it’s dishonorable. LR

Response:

…  He "deserved" to die simply because he was harassing another aircraft in international waters when he should not have.

He was no doubt under orders to harass the spy plane just as an American "hotdog" would be under orders to harass a Chinese spy plane in international waters off the coast of California. I doubt you’d be so cavalier about the death of an American aviator. As far as this not belonging on roff:  well, it seems like you and only you get to pick roffs contents?  

I don’t pick contents, but if I see something that makes this place an uncomfortable place for me or for others who want to discuss flyfishing I’ll either ignore it or bitch about it as I see fit. I suggest you do the same. … And, MY brother was in the marines too.  What does *that* have to do with anything?

Only that I’m not totally unsympathetic to career military. — Ken Fortenberry

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Ken Whats the fucking big deal? They are American Navy people. …

No big deal, I’m just tired of all the hoop-de-la and the bloodlust was just starting to taper off on ROFF when you had to go and bring the damn thing up again. And believe it or not, not every flyfisherman in the world gives a flying fuck about the American Navy. — Ken Fortenberry

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… But ingratitude is worse than unseemly, it’s dishonorable.

Worship the military if that’s your wont, but calling folks dishonorable is no way find a fishing partner. — Ken Fortenberry

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Take it any way you want. I didn’t call you dishonorable, but your behavior is. Enough dishonorable behavior and I may eventually judge you as dishonorable, but it’ll take a long time for me to feel that way about you. Since I took you to task publicly, I apologize in public for doing so. I should have emailed you.

Response:

… Since I took you to task publicly, I apologize in public for doing so. I should have emailed you.

No problem, Lennie. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken,    According to Websters, a jingo is a person who boasts of his patriotism and favors an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy.  You are totally missing the point.  This is a welcome home for a group of Americans that was held captive after making an emergency landing at a foreign airfield.  Would we have accepted this kind of treatment if this had been an airliner full of civilians, held by a foreign power after such an emergency landing?  Because they are military, should we not welcome them home?    It is not "jingoistic" to feel proud of a group of people who have been through a difficult ordeal, handled it with professionalism and returned home with honor.  Their job?  Ensuring that we are not suprised by an unforseen hostile act.  If we can find out about what is going on, then mayhaps we can PREVENT an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy.    Neither is it jingoistic to be saddened by the deaths of American and Vietnamese service men in Vietnam, years after the end of the war.  Their job?  Bringing closure to the families who lost love ones in that war.    I’ve watched both of these incidents unfold over the last few days. They hit home.  I was an Air Force linguist and intelligence analyst. These are some of the brightest and hardest working folks in the military.  Their IQs average in the top 10 percent.  It takes over 1 1/2 years in school, 8 hours a day with six hours of homework to even sit in the seat.  Then there is another year and a half of qualification on-the-job.  The washout rate is as high as 60%.    It is a very tight knit community. They are called "purple suiters" (the color of blue, green, and black uniforms combined) as they are the most "joint" job in the military. The mix of this crew is indicative of this "jointness."  They do their wartime job day in and out with life and death decisions in their hands.  99% boredom, 1% stark raving terror.  For this they make about $20,000 a year.    I was at the Defense Language Institute at the same time as one of those guys on the MI-8.  One of my coworkers was his roommate.  We are heartened and glad that the EP-3 incident did not end in the same way.  We are relieved that they’ve returned home.  We are welcoming them home as a nation, as you would welcome an old friend into your home for Thanksgiving.    Ken, Dave was not expressing "jingoistic melodrama."  He, like many of us, were expressing a collective sigh of relief, that these men and women returned home to the ruffles and flourishes of the National Anthem and not the saddening strains of Taps.         Frank Reid, MSgt, USAF (Ret)

Well said Frank, I think only those of us who have known the military as "family" for a goodly portion of our lives can really appreciate what the Whidbey Island folks felt today, it is a special bond that is still with me 31 yrs after retirement from the USAF.  I also believe that *most* Americans celebrate with us. Frank Church, TSgt, USAF (Ret)

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Ken,     According to Websters, a jingo is a person who boasts of his patriotism and favors an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy.  You are totally missing the point.  This is a welcome home for a group of Americans that was held captive after making an emergency landing at a foreign airfield.  Would we have accepted this kind of treatment if this had been an airliner full of civilians, held by a foreign power after such an emergency landing?  Because they are military, should we not welcome them home?     It is not "jingoistic" to feel proud of a group of people who have been through a difficult ordeal, handled it with professionalism and returned home with honor.  Their job?  Ensuring that we are not suprised by an unforseen hostile act.  If we can find out about what is going on, then mayhaps we can PREVENT an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy.     Neither is it jingoistic to be saddened by the deaths of American and Vietnamese service men in Vietnam, years after the end of the war.  Their job?  Bringing closure to the families who lost love ones in that war.     I’ve watched both of these incidents unfold over the last few days. They hit home.  I was an Air Force linguist and intelligence analyst.  These are some of the brightest and hardest working folks in the military.  Their IQs average in the top 10 percent.  It takes over 1 1/2 years in school, 8 hours a day with six hours of homework to even sit in the seat.  Then there is another year and a half of qualification on-the-job.  The washout rate is as high as 60%.     It is a very tight knit community. They are called "purple suiters" (the color of blue, green, and black uniforms combined) as they are the most "joint" job in the military. The mix of this crew is indicative of this "jointness."  They do their wartime job day in and out with life and death decisions in their hands.  99% boredom, 1% stark raving terror.  For this they make about $20,000 a year.     I was at the Defense Language Institute at the same time as one of those guys on the MI-8.  One of my coworkers was his roommate.  We are heartened and glad that the EP-3 incident did not end in the same way.  We are relieved that they’ve returned home.  We are welcoming them home as a nation, as you would welcome an old friend into your home for Thanksgiving.     Ken, Dave was not expressing "jingoistic melodrama."  He, like many of us, were expressing a collective sigh of relief, that these men and women returned home to the ruffles and flourishes of the National Anthem and not the saddening strains of Taps.          Frank Reid, MSgt, USAF (Ret) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They are about 40 minutes from touchdown at Whidby NAS. You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. — Ken Fortenberry

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Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes.  God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick.

I can be insufferable without any help whatsoever from the United States Navy, thank you very much. Glad you enjoyed the TV show, Louie, now let’s hip-hip, hup-hup and go kill some Commies for the Gipper. Sheesh, take this crap somewhere where the coarser elements of our society gather to wallow in their ignorance, it has no place on ROFF. — Ken Fortenberry

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They are about 40 minutes from touchdown at Whidby NAS. dave

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They are about 40 minutes from touchdown at Whidby NAS.

You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. — Ken Fortenberry

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Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama.

After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes.  God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick. Dave Dave

Response:

Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes.  God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick. Dave

AMEN! — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno 406-626-4022

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Question:

I’ve been quite interested in this discussion of wealth. It seems to me that our society equates financial wealth with well-being. And, of course, the two are not the same. IMO, despite what your W-2 or 401(k) statements say, if you (1) spend less than you earn, (2) live in a place you enjoy, (3) are surrounded by people who love you, (4) and have time to fish with regularity then I say that you, sir, are a wealthy man indeed. Gack if you want to, you hardened bastards, but I believe it’s the truth. –Steve

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No gacking here, partner.  Well said.  There are even wealthy and happy folks without #4.  Go figure. JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – IMO, despite what your W-2 or 401(k) statements say, if you (1) spend less than you earn, (2) live in a place you enjoy, (3) are surrounded by people who love you, (4) and have time to fish with regularity then I say that you, sir, are a wealthy man indeed. Gack if you want to, you hardened bastards, but I believe it’s the truth.

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Steve Zimmerman: IMO, despite what your W-2 or 401(k) statements say, if you (1) spend less than you earn, (2) live in a place you enjoy, (3) are surrounded by people who love you, (4) and have time to fish with regularity then I say that you, sir, are a wealthy man indeed. Gack if you want to, you hardened bastards, but I believe it’s the truth. –Steve

Well said, Steve.   I doubt you’ll get many "gacks" — none from me, anyway.  I look at my two daughters and their children and I know I am the wealthiest man on earth.  Of course, fishing where and when I want to doesn’t hurt either. <g Dave LaCourse

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Gack if you want to, you hardened bastards, but I believe it’s the truth.

Steve, Sounds like you found Utopia! And I thought it couldn’t be done. Even hardened bastards gotta soften up on this one! Cheers, Rick

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I’ve been quite interested in this discussion of wealth. It seems to me that our society equates financial wealth with well-being. And, of course, the two are not the same. IMO, despite what your W-2 or 401(k) statements say, if you (1) spend less than you earn, (2) live in a place you enjoy, (3) are surrounded by people who love you, (4) and have time to fish with regularity then I say that you, sir, are a wealthy man indeed. Gack if you want to, you hardened bastards, but I believe it’s the truth.

Although you stated that financial wealth and well-being are not the same, you seemed to combine the two in your definition and came up with some ingredients for being happy. However, I agree with your sentiment and it’s part of what I was referring to when I said I considered myself wealthy. In the financial area, I think #1 is a place where many people seem to have trouble. I have friends whose monthly debt payments ie. cars, homes, credit cards etc. are greater than what I earn. Although they make, to me, alot of money, they are living from paycheck to paycheck. Although the idea of feeling financially wealthy is personal and subjective, it seems to me that Americans have gotten some weirdly distorted ideas about what it means to be wealthy if someone in the richest nation in world, who earns in the top 1% of its citizens, doesn’t see himself as wealthy. Willi

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Not just living from paycheck to pay check, but never getting out of their hole, or even digging themselves deeper. As Mr. McCawber put it: Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – less than you earn, (2) live in a place you enjoy, (3) are surrounded by people who love you, (4) and have time to fish with regularity then I say that you, sir, are a wealthy man indeed. In the financial area, I think #1 is a place where many people seem to have trouble. I have friends whose monthly debt payments ie. cars, homes, credit cards etc. are greater than what I earn. Although they make, to me, alot of money, they are living from paycheck to paycheck.

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Nah, they just THINK they’re happy.. No gacking here, partner.  Well said.  There are even wealthy and happy folks without #4.  Go figure. JR IMO, despite what your W-2 or 401(k) statements say, if you (1) spend less than you earn, (2) live in a place you enjoy, (3) are surrounded by people who love you, (4) and have time to fish with regularity then I say that you, sir, are a wealthy man indeed. Gack if you want to, you hardened bastards, but I believe it’s the truth.

– -Mark  –  Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio  http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad  mp3 songs:  http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad

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I’ve been quite interested in this discussion of wealth.

I couldn’t agree with you more.  I’m facing a job loss at the end of the year, potentially forcing me (although I do look forward to it) to be a stay at home dad to my six month old son.  I have the most loving wife and other family around me.  And I have my realatively new found love (1 1/2 years now) of time with my fly rods.  You know, I really cannot expect any more from life at this time.  It is a wonderful realization.  In spite of any ominous things job-wise, I couldn’t ask for a better life. Looking forward to teaching Sparky the ways of fly fishing! Bruce Thomsen

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#5 having a really cool car. Only joking… Well half joking. Wealth is coming home and having your daughter (4) come running yelling "Daddy’s home" and give you a big hug. Having my son(8) blind side me as I walk past the den with my daughter in my arms, although well intentioned, I could do without. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been quite interested in this discussion of wealth. It seems to me that our society equates financial wealth with well-being. And, of course, the two are not the same. IMO, despite what your W-2 or 401(k) statements say, if you (1) spend less than you earn, (2) live in a place you enjoy, (3) are surrounded by people who love you, (4) and have time to fish with regularity then I say that you, sir, are a wealthy man indeed. Gack if you want to, you hardened bastards, but I believe it’s the truth. –Steve

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In my mid twenties, I was frustrated with life.  I was being laid off from my therapy job in the hospital and decided to take control of my own life by becoming wealty.   To make a long story short, I got scammed, lost my ass for 3 years and ended up far worse off then I was.  But I learned one thing that made it all worth it. Money is not freedom….. Time is.  Having time to spend with my wife and kids, fly fish 50+ times a year, go hunting with my buddies and working on my mini-farm are priceless. I think I learned the most important lesson in life and it all it "cost" me was a bad credit record for 10 years, haha.  Seriously, I am so thankful that I figured the real priorities out while my kids are still young.  I spent 4 years as a stay at home dad and now am just returning to school for my Masters degree.  Life is good. Mike

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Question:

In Alaska, grizzly bears that get a substantial amount of their dietary intake from salmon are called brown bears.

Not exactly. A brown bear is a grizzly bear is a brown bear, Ursus arctos, no matter what they eat. http://www.brownbear.org/info.php3 — Ken Fortenberry

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those must be some slow squirrels, or real quick bears…the tree rats in nc outrun trucks…and you can’t sneak up on them.  makes me glad ol griz doesn’t live in the blue ridge… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … I’m sure that salmon made up a fair amount of the grizzly’s diet in the past … In Alaska, grizzly bears that get a substantial amount of their dietary intake from salmon are called brown bears. Contrary to popular belief, many of the grizzly bears in Alaska cannot be properly called brown bears because they don’t have access to large numbers of salmon, and instead persist largely off berries and squirrels.  Even in SW Alaska, I’ve been told that it’s only proper to call a grizzy a brown if they live within 100 miles of the coast, inside the salmon rich zone. When I fished Alaska above the arctic circle (Noatak system) in 1999, I learned that the grizzly bears had very little to *no* access to salmon, and squirrels in particular were a primary meal item.  We took several hikes into the Brook’s Range, and it was not uncommon to see big areas of ground ripped up by a grizzly in search of squirrels. When I mentioned to our bush pilot how many trashy native-american fishing huts I saw along the Noatak, he said that it was very common for a hut to go up, for squirrels to take residence under the hut in the following years, and for a grizzly to eventually tear up the hut ~3 years later. I suspect the Idaho grizzlies don’t know much about fish.  I do hope that bear-proof food canisters become mandatory for many campers and back packers so that a problem is not created. Thomas Gilg

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 We could use a few bears on Wall ST.

Be patient, they’re coming.

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I prefer to carry a bucket, so I don’t leave excrement all over the wilderness when confronted by a grizzly. Opie

I’ld be happy to fish with someone who stops to use the bucket when confronted by a bear while I’m making myself scarce Paul

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(snip)  In his writings, Roosevelt described Lilly as "spare, full bearded, with mild, gentle eyes and a frame of steel and whipcord." "I never met any other man so indifferent to fatigue and hardship. The morning he joined us in camp, he had come on foot through the thick woods, followed by his two dogs, and had neither eaten nor drunk for twenty-four hours; for he did not like to drink the swamp water. It had rained hard throughout the night and he had no shelter, no rubber coat, nothing but the clothes he was wearing and the ground was too wet for him to lie on’ so he perched in a crooked tree in the beating rain,

    (snip) This guy had skills that are lost today…

    no doubt.  but i just can’t shake the fact that going without drink when you are about to float the f88k away is some indication that there was a touch of masochism in the old boy’s family tree. wayno, who guesses ol ben drank his whisky neat.

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We could use a few bears on Wall ST.

Short on some stock that just won’t go down? <g — Charlie…

Response:

… I’m sure that salmon made up a fair amount of the grizzly’s diet in the past …

In Alaska, grizzly bears that get a substantial amount of their dietary intake from salmon are called brown bears. Contrary to popular belief, many of the grizzly bears in Alaska cannot be properly called brown bears because they don’t have access to large numbers of salmon, and instead persist largely off berries and squirrels.  Even in SW Alaska, I’ve been told that it’s only proper to call a grizzy a brown if they live within 100 miles of the coast, inside the salmon rich zone. When I fished Alaska above the arctic circle (Noatak system) in 1999, I learned that the grizzly bears had very little to *no* access to salmon, and squirrels in particular were a primary meal item.  We took several hikes into the Brook’s Range, and it was not uncommon to see big areas of ground ripped up by a grizzly in search of squirrels. When I mentioned to our bush pilot how many trashy native-american fishing huts I saw along the Noatak, he said that it was very common for a hut to go up, for squirrels to take residence under the hut in the following years, and for a grizzly to eventually tear up the hut ~3 years later. I suspect the Idaho grizzlies don’t know much about fish.  I do hope that bear-proof food canisters become mandatory for many campers and back packers so that a problem is not created. Thomas Gilg

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The best protection from bears is to always use quality brand name fishing equipment! <g — Charlie…

I think I vaguely remember an article in one of the hook-and-bullet rags a few years back about a guy who fended off a black bear by whacking it on the nose repeatedly with his fly rod.  I can’t remember if the rod had a unconditional lifetime warrantee or not. Kevin

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I would be very careful about getting between a mother elk and her baby. Ernie

<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, a woman I know was riding the horse a few days ago when she heard a huge commotion down by the lake. Her dogs had found a newborn elk. They didn’t hurt it, but it was really scared. She looked it over to make sure it was OK and gave it some water. It was SO cute. Then she took it home and put it in the freezer. (Just kidding.) There are so many elk around here it’s ridiculous. There’s usually a small herd right next to my horse pasture in the evening.

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I prefer to carry a bucket, so I don’t leave excrement all over the wilderness when confronted by a grizzly. Opie

And it saves money on reels. TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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Yup, I’d take my kids and do some camping. Bring the dog too. Yup no problem… There are about 600 grizzlies in Yellowstone Park and people manage to camp in reasonable safety.

 I was not being flip, I see no major problem. I do think some in the release area will have a few encounters that will be ugly. There are 100,000 year round people in the release area . As for YS , well they do have a few people get nibbled once and a while.

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_______  These bears were trained and raised in a wilderness setting. Several meat mannequins setting in kayaks were scattered daily through out their habitat.   — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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_______  These bears were trained and raised in a wilderness setting. Several meat mannequins setting in kayaks were scattered daily through out their habitat.  

cool

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yeah but think of all the grilled elkburgers…. john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I would be very careful about getting between a mother elk and her baby. Ernie <snip BTW, a woman I know was riding the horse a few days ago when she heard a huge commotion down by the lake. Her dogs had found a newborn elk. They didn’t hurt it, but it was really scared. She looked it over to make sure it was OK and gave it some water. It was SO cute. Then she took it home and put it in the freezer. (Just kidding.) There are so many elk around here it’s ridiculous. There’s usually a small herd right next to my horse pasture in the evening.

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I prefer to carry a bucket, so I don’t leave excrement all over the wilderness when confronted by a grizzly. I doubt I’d have time to get the bucket in place, best to get one of those horse diapers or borrow Waldo’s waders<g. — Charlie…

 We could use a few bears on Wall ST. –tony

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Yup, I’d take my kids and do some camping. Bring the dog too. Yup no problem… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey rw, I guess you have heard about this Fed. Program?  And we were worried about some little old Black bears down here in the Old North State! The following is a quote copied from ABCNEWS.com.  I hope it doesn’t mess with anyone’s ‘puters.  As I am not that familiar with computer workings, I guess someone will let me know if I have posted a boo boo. Op "The agency plan calls for transplanting 25 Canadian or American bears over five years to nearly 6,000 square miles of rugged mountains and canyons in the Selway-Bitterroot and Frank Church-River of No Return wilderness areas of Idaho and Montana. Each bear would be monitored by a radio collar.     Bears would later be allowed to roam over another 20,000 square miles that encompasses communities as far west as Washington and east into Montana. While there are essentially no people living in the direct reintroduction zone – all of it designated wilderness – the wider area includes approximately 100,000 people."

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Hey rw, I guess you have heard about this Fed. Program?  And we were worried about some little old Black bears down here in the Old North State!

Yeah, some people here are really pissed about this, even more than they’re pissed about the wolves. I like the idea, but I have some reservations. There are no longer any appreciable numbers of salmon, and I’m sure that salmon made up a fair amount of the grizzly’s diet in the past. Maybe a few hungry grizzlies will speed up the Lower Snake dam breaching. I’m wondering what’s going to happen when Middle Fork rafters come upon a grizzly in the middle of the river. There’ll be rafts backed up for hours. BTW, a woman I know was riding the horse a few days ago when she heard a huge commotion down by the lake. Her dogs had found a newborn elk. They didn’t hurt it, but it was really scared. She looked it over to make sure it was OK and gave it some water. It was SO cute. Then she took it home and put it in the freezer. (Just kidding.) There are so many elk around here it’s ridiculous. There’s usually a small herd right next to my horse pasture in the evening. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Yup, I’d take my kids and do some camping. Bring the dog too. Yup no problem…

There are about 600 grizzlies in Yellowstone Park and people manage to camp in reasonable safety. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – wilderness when confronted by a grizzly. Opie Hey rw, I guess you have heard about this Fed. Program?  And we were worried about some little old Black bears down here in the Old North State! The best protection from bears is to always use quality brand name fishing equipment! <g — Charlie…

Opie: It sounds like next time you visit Frank"s Wilderness area you might consider leaving your peashooter at home and moving up to a 10MM. Big Dale

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Hey rw, I guess you have heard about this Fed. Program?  And we were worried about some little old Black bears down here in the Old North State! The following is a quote copied from ABCNEWS.com.  I hope it doesn’t mess with anyone’s ‘puters.  As I am not that familiar with computer workings, I guess someone will let me know if I have posted a boo boo. Op "The agency plan calls for transplanting 25 Canadian or American bears over five years to nearly 6,000 square miles of rugged mountains and canyons in the Selway-Bitterroot and Frank Church-River of No Return wilderness areas of Idaho and Montana. Each bear would be monitored by a radio collar.      Bears would later be allowed to roam over another 20,000 square miles that encompasses communities as far west as Washington and east into Montana. While there are essentially no people living in the direct reintroduction zone – all of it designated wilderness – the wider area includes approximately 100,000 people."

Response:

That’s cool Ope, I like the thought of bears in *my* Wilderness Area. Frank (old grizzy wrassler) Church – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey rw, I guess you have heard about this Fed. Program?  And we were worried about some little old Black bears down here in the Old North State! The following is a quote copied from ABCNEWS.com.  I hope it doesn’t mess with anyone’s ‘puters.  As I am not that familiar with computer workings, I guess someone will let me know if I have posted a boo boo. Op "The agency plan calls for transplanting 25 Canadian or American bears over five years to nearly 6,000 square miles of rugged mountains and canyons in the Selway-Bitterroot and Frank Church-River of No Return wilderness areas of Idaho and Montana. Each bear would be monitored by a radio collar.     Bears would later be allowed to roam over another 20,000 square miles that encompasses communities as far west as Washington and east into Montana. While there are essentially no people living in the direct reintroduction zone – all of it designated wilderness – the wider area includes approximately 100,000 people."

Response:

Hey rw, I guess you have heard about this Fed. Program?  And we were worried about some little old Black bears down here in the Old North State!

The best protection from bears is to always use quality brand name fishing equipment! <g — Charlie…

Response:

I prefer to carry a bucket, so I don’t leave excrement all over the wilderness when confronted by a grizzly. Opie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey rw, I guess you have heard about this Fed. Program?  And we were worried about some little old Black bears down here in the Old North State! The best protection from bears is to always use quality brand name fishing equipment! <g — Charlie…

Response:

I prefer to carry a bucket, so I don’t leave excrement all over the wilderness when confronted by a grizzly.

I doubt I’d have time to get the bucket in place, best to get one of those horse diapers or borrow Waldo’s waders<g. — Charlie…

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Question:

______  RW?  I want to talk to you at: — http://www.gink.com/chat If you are up.  I’m going there now. George

Response:

Ernie, I’ve seen these but have never had the guts to use them.  Do they stay in the flyline when you hook a big fish?  They look like they would slip out.

Vern; This topic comes up every few weeks here.  If you do a Deja News search you can find quite a bit of discussion of it over the past year or so.  It seems that Ernie and I are the biggest fans of leader links.  I’ve used them for over fifteen years, as have a number of my friends.  I know of no case in which they have failed, except when they are so old that repeated dragging over rocks etc., has abraded them badly.  Of course, any knot used to attach a leader to the fly line would have fared just as badly. Like anything else, a leader link has a finite useable life.  But bearing that in mind they are very reliable, cheap, and easy to use, and should be more than adequate for anything less demanding than large salt water species.  I’ve personally caught quite a few steelhead and salmon while rigged with leader links and never had a problem. Someone else recently suggested knotting the ends of the leader and line together before reinserting them into the leader link.  This is unnecessary for most applications but can’t hurt if you can actually tie a knot small enough.

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Vern,    They are surprisingly strong.  The only thing to watch out for is to tie a figure 8 knot or double overhand when attaching leader butt’s with diameters of .017 or less to make a larger knot.  You should check the line where it enters the Leader Link vocationally to see that it hasn’t cracked. They seem to last forever, I have worn out lines and moved the Leader Link to a new line.  Changing leaders is so easy that I replace the whole leader rather than tie on a new tippet while I am fishing.  I save the leaders and rebuild them when I am not fishing. Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ernie, I’ve seen these but have never had the guts to use them. Do they stay in the flyline when you hook a big fish? They look like they would slip out. Vern Don,    Try using the Leader Link from Eagle Claw. Eagle Claw Country Store Phone 1-800-628-0108 4245 East 46th Avenue Denver Colorado 80216 Leader Link For tapered lines (LL1) For level lines     (LL2) There are 3 links per package and cost $2.83 per pack.

Response:

Are you guys differentiating between the kind that slip over and the kind that poke through (with barbs) the end of your flyline?……john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Vern,   They are surprisingly strong.  The only thing to watch out for is to tie a figure 8 knot or double overhand when attaching leader butt’s with diameters of .017 or less to make a larger knot.  You should check the line where it enters the Leader Link vocationally to see that it hasn’t cracked. They seem to last forever, I have worn out lines and moved the Leader Link to a new line.  Changing leaders is so easy that I replace the whole leader rather than tie on a new tippet while I am fishing.  I save the leaders and rebuild them when I am not fishing. Ernie Harrison Ernie, I’ve seen these but have never had the guts to use them. Do they stay in the flyline when you hook a big fish? They look like they would slip out. Vern Don,    Try using the Leader Link from Eagle Claw. Eagle Claw Country Store Phone 1-800-628-0108 4245 East 46th Avenue Denver Colorado 80216 Leader Link For tapered lines (LL1) For level lines     (LL2) There are 3 links per package and cost $2.83 per pack.

Response:

John,    A Leader Link looks like a large grain of rice with a hole drilled through the center lengthwise and with the sides cut out in the middle. Your line slides into the hole in one end and out the hole in the side,  You tie an overhand knot in it, trim off the excess and pull it back through the hole in the side.  Then you do the same with your leader in the hole in the other end. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you guys differentiating between the kind that slip over and the kind that poke through (with barbs) the end of your flyline?……john

Response:

ahhhh….those rascals……thanks….john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -John,   A Leader Link looks like a large grain of rice with a hole drilled through the center lengthwise and with the sides cut out in the middle. Your line slides into the hole in one end and out the hole in the side, You tie an overhand knot in it, trim off the excess and pull it back through the hole in the side.  Then you do the same with your leader in the hole in the other end. Ernie Are you guys differentiating between the kind that slip over and the kind that poke through (with barbs) the end of your flyline?……john

Response:

I’ve been experimenting with different connections between my fly line and leader.  My local flyshop has a habit of tying a perfection loop into a line and then using a loop-to-loop connection but if I’m going to get a wind knot that’s where it will happen 90% of the time.  I’ve taken recently to tying a short section (18") of butt directly to the end of the line using a nail knot, then tying in a tapered leader, then tying in a tippet.  I end up clipping off a 1/2" of line anytime I have to change out that butt section which is more often than I’d like. Any other suggestions? TIA, Don — Don Anderson

Response:

going to get a wind knot that’s where it will happen 90% of the time.  I’ve taken recently to tying a short section (18") of butt directly to the end of the line using a nail knot, then tying in a tapered leader, then tying in a tippet.  I end up clipping off a 1/2" of line anytime I have to change out that butt

Don, I wonder how many posts you are going to get like this one. You know, where your question is addressed but no advice given? Myself, I use the perfection not on both the butt section and the leader.  I like the way it forms the loop to loop as far as turn over goes.  Less likelihood of the ‘hinging effect.’ I do recall this question coming up a long time ago and I saved the question and all of the answers….course I lost a whole big file of stuff while learning some of the various functions of my computer.  And I don’t remember what the answer was….I think it had something to do with casting…in order to avoid the knots. I must have retained something on a subconscious level because it moved the knots down into the tippet section. All I know is that it’s a real pickle trying to flyfish with a short term

Response:

Hi Don, I like to first needle nail knot a new tapered knotless monofilament leader directly to the end of my flyline. I am actually ’snelling’ on the leader. Then after I have used up all the taper by adding tippet material, I cut the leader at about 12 to 18 inches from the flyline and then attach another tapered leader. This gives me the same diameter and the same constancy of monofilament. You can shorten the new leader by cutting 12 to 18 inches from the butt before tying it on. This is not ‘thee way to do it’, but just another way to do it. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop http://www.kiene.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been experimenting with different connections between my fly line and leader.  My local flyshop has a habit of tying a perfection loop into a line and then using a loop-to-loop connection but if I’m going to get a wind knot that’s where it will happen 90% of the time.  I’ve taken recently to tying a short section (18") of butt directly to the end of the line using a nail knot, then tying in a tapered leader, then tying in a tippet.  I end up clipping off a 1/2" of line anytime I have to change out that butt section which is more often than I’d like. Any other suggestions? TIA, Don — Don Anderson

Response:

Don,    Try using the Leader Link from Eagle Claw. Eagle Claw Country Store Phone 1-800-628-0108 4245 East 46th Avenue Denver Colorado 80216 Leader Link For tapered lines (LL1) For level lines     (LL2) There are 3 links per package and cost $2.83 per pack. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’ve been experimenting with different connections between my fly line and leader.  My local flyshop has a habit of tying a perfection loop into a line and then using a loop-to-loop connection but if I’m going to get a wind knot that’s where it will happen 90% of the time.  I’ve taken recently to tying a short section (18") of butt directly to the end of the line using a nail knot, then tying in a tapered leader, then tying in a tippet.  I end up clipping off a 1/2" of line anytime I have to change out that butt section which is more often than I’d like. Any other suggestions? TIA, Don — Don Anderson

Response:

I use a nail knot to tie a butt to the leader and then I put a surgeons loop at the end of that.I use a loop to loop connection to attach the leader.I don’t like to use a loop connection to my tippet because I believe it will affect the ability of the leader to lay out straight.Art Lee recommends never using a loop anywhhere on your leader but using a uni-knot to connect which is easier to tie than a nail knot and serves the same function.I have switched to this knot and I haven’t had any problems.

Response:

Don,    Try using the Leader Link from Eagle Claw. Eagle Claw Country Store Phone 1-800-628-0108 4245 East 46th Avenue Denver Colorado 80216 Leader Link For tapered lines (LL1) For level lines     (LL2) There are 3 links per package and cost $2.83 per pack.

Hear, Hear!  I’ve been using Leader Links for 20 years now, and wouldn’t waste my time trying anything else.  They work great, but I hardly know anybody else that uses them.  They don’t look as though they would be all that strong, but they are a hell of a lot stronger than the tippet of your leader (unless maybe you are fishing for blue marlin or something), which is all that you need. Kevin

Response:

Hear, Hear!  I’ve been using Leader Links for 20 years now, and wouldn’t waste my time trying anything else.  They work great, but I hardly know anybody else that uses them.  They don’t look as though they would be all that strong, but they are a hell of a lot stronger than the tippet of your leader (unless maybe you are fishing for blue marlin or something), which is all that you need.

When I recommended leader links to a friend of mine in Idaho he turned up his nose at them. Said he was a "purist". I pointed out that he was using a graphite rod, a nylon leader, and a synthetic flyline. It turned out that the guy didn’t even know how to tie a nail knot or a needle knot. He had it done at the tackle shop. Sheesh! — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Ernie, I’ve seen these but have never had the guts to use them.

Question:

Joe Fleischman sent it.  Joe sent the Fall Ball a little CARE package for the raffle.   I hope I get the "trio", and I will do my best to make sure the other one goes to the "appropriate" Clavester.  This is gonna be hysterical.   Thanks, Joe. Ya know, it just dawned on me, Joe:  I bet he *likes* it!! BWWWaaaaaahahahahahaha Dave L.

Response:

Joe Fleischman sent it.  Joe sent the Fall Ball a little CARE package for the raffle.   I hope I get the "trio", and I will do my best to make sure the other one goes to the "appropriate" Clavester.  This is gonna be hysterical.   Thanks, Joe. Ya know, it just dawned on me, Joe:  I bet he *likes* it!! BWWWaaaaaahahahahahaha

Now that you posted it, it’s too late to make it a "duet".  <g   And I want pictures. TL, Joe

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Is there a pool for how many inches of rain will fall in the Smokies next week? — Charlie…

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Joe F: <<Now that you posted it, it’s too late to make it a "duet".  <g   And I want pictures. Shhhhhhhoooot!  Duet!  Why didn’t *I* think of that. Devious Dave

Response:

Charlie Choc: <<Is there a pool for how many inches of rain will fall in the Smokies next week? No, but I will take the number 9. Dave

Response:

Charlie Choc: <<Is there a pool for how many inches of rain will fall in the Smokies next week? No, but I will take the number 9.

I was going to pick 4 (for Forty<g). As long as there’s no lightning either Thursday or Friday so I can get across the lake to Hazel I’ll be happy. — Charlie…

Response:

Can I get in on the Raffle, as a non attendee Tim Apple — The fishing is always good, It’s the catching that’s sometimes bad"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Joe Fleischman sent it.  Joe sent the Fall Ball a little CARE package for the raffle.   I hope I get the "trio", and I will do my best to make sure the other one goes to the "appropriate" Clavester.  This is gonna be hysterical.   Thanks, Joe. Ya know, it just dawned on me, Joe:  I bet he *likes* it!! BWWWaaaaaahahahahahaha Dave L.

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How about if I donate a 55 gallon drum of scrap Bamboo to the Clave’s raffle?  I’m sure daytripper and lacourse would be the highest bidders. ; )  gol   (giggling out loud) basb (blowing a snot bubble)  gmak! (give me a kleenex!) : )))))))))))))   dme  (dabbing my eyes) Mr. G.

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How about if I donate a 55 gallon drum of scrap Bamboo to the Clave’s raffle?  I’m sure daytripper and lacourse would be the highest bidders. ; )  gol   (giggling out loud) basb (blowing a snot bubble)  gmak! (give me a kleenex!) : )))))))))))))   dme  (dabbing my eyes) Mr. G.

no need to donate george, thar will be plenty of scrap bamboo present waldo — Ezflyfish.com http://www.ezflyfish.com BRBG http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gehrke writes: <<How about if I donate a 55 gallon drum of scrap Bamboo to the Clave’s raffle?  I’m sure daytripper and lacourse would be the highest bidders. You wouldn’t want to do that, George.  What the hell would you make your  bamboo rods out of.  I’ve seen a couple of them — they looked like they were made from scrap bamboo.  d;0)   Remember, George, you should not re-use numbers 6, 11, and 12.  Those were terrible.  Plus the others that have been returned.  What was your failure rate, George — 20%?     I sure am glad you aren’t building airplanes, George.   d;0)  ( < my hat on backwards, George.)  LOL LaCourse

LaCourse.  They would just prove how , biased, unthinking, wrong opinionated, ex-Navy, burnt out old foggie you really are. Those fly rods were beautiful   fly rods.  Just because you say they weren’t doesn’t make it so pal.  So go make a monkey out of yourself somewhere else.  I’m not your piece of meat.  I don’t think you will ever change, no matter what proof might reveal itself one day regarding your exaggerations.   Get a life LaCourse. Mr. G. http://www.gink.com/chat

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I have some of Mike’s Flies and they are the finest I have ever seen.  The person who gets them will have flies tied by a real master. Ernie Harrison See Ernie’s Fly-Fishing Stuff:   http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Yet another truck stopped at my residence — this one a little white and blue one, stamped with U.S. Mail. There is going to be one joyful roffer at the Fall Ball.  Mike Connor’s package arrived safely.  It is a fly box with seventy (70!) flies.  I haven’t opened it – it has shrink-wrap-like material around it -, but I can see what looks like some Partridge and Orange and either a  Roayal Coachman or Royal Wulff.  Whoever wins this also gets a letter from Mike, with an appropriate poem, and it *is* suitable for framing. Mike has out-done himself again.  He is doing well and gives his warm regards to all of us. Dave L.

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Mike has out-done himself again.  He is doing well and gives his warm regards to all of us.

That sure beats the hell out of what I sent you.  :-)   Make sure my name is in the hat for that one! TL, Joe

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Yet another truck stopped at my residence — this one a little white and blue one, stamped with U.S. Mail.   There is going to be one joyful roffer at the Fall Ball.  Mike Connor’s package arrived safely.  It is a fly box with seventy (70!) flies.  I haven’t opened it – it has shrink-wrap-like material around it -, but I can see what looks like some Partridge and Orange and either a  Roayal Coachman or Royal Wulff.  Whoever wins this also gets a letter from Mike, with an appropriate poem, and it *is* suitable for framing. Mike has out-done himself again.  He is doing well and gives his warm regards to all of us. Dave L.

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Ernie Harrison: Ernie, I can’t filter anyone out.  My isp will allow it and provides for it, but *I* won’t do it.  I’ve never turned my back on anything, and I won’t now.  If George lies, I will reply.  If he shuts up, so will I.  I have asked him to take it to e-mail, but he will not. Believe me, I am not answering most of his posts.  Be well….. Dave L.

Response:

George: <<No thank you LaCourse.  I would receive the same thing I did last year. nothing. That’s because you didn’t want it.  Waldo still has it.  He could easily send it to you.  Why don’t you ask him to?  d;0) LaCourse

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George: pieces.  You make much to do about nothing, as usual daytripper.  You really need to relax a little more. George, we were at peace.  Everything was going well, and then you start another fight.  When Tripper and I respond, you become incensed.  Change your underwear, Georgie.  I am sure the purple stains from eating so many sour grapes are now visible. LaCourse

Response:

hold on now, ya’ll…us southern folks are quite fond of bamboo tomato stakes, and i’d be happy to receive the scrap bamboo.  BTW, i’m quite happy with my Happy Hooker Bastard rod, with whatever defects or flaws it might have…and, i’m planning on using it on Hazel Creek, and maybe even for whippin one of those damn horse’s into shape for the ride up the road to nowhere… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How about if I donate a 55 gallon drum of scrap Bamboo to the Clave’s raffle?  I’m sure daytripper and lacourse would be the highest bidders. You’re probably right: neither Dave nor I would bid one red cent, while others would be ASKING for money to toss the works in the dumpster… /daytripper

Response:

Dave,    What you say is true,  but when you respond to his crap it comes through my filter and then I have a choice of filtering the subject or your name, neither of which I want to do.  I already have so many subjects filtered out my hard drive is filling up.  Why not just filter him out and we can both have some peace. Ernie Harrison See Ernie’s Fly-Fishing Stuff:   http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -George: pieces.  You make much to do about nothing, as usual daytripper.  You really need to relax a little more. George, we were at peace.  Everything was going well, and then you start another fight.  When Tripper and I respond, you become incensed.  Change your underwear, Georgie.  I am sure the purple stains from eating so many sour grapes are now visible. LaCourse

Response:

Forgetfull Tim Apple writes:

<<Can I get in on the Raffle, as a non attendee <g  You already are, Tim.  d;0) Dave

Response:

Gehrke writes:

<<How about if I donate a 55 gallon drum of scrap Bamboo to the Clave’s raffle?  I’m sure daytripper and lacourse would be the highest bidders. You wouldn’t want to do that, George.  What the hell would you make your  bamboo rods out of.  I’ve seen a couple of them — they looked like they were made from scrap bamboo.  d;0)   Remember, George, you should not re-use numbers 6, 11, and 12.  Those were terrible.  Plus the others that have been returned.  What was your failure rate, George — 20%?     I sure am glad you aren’t building airplanes, George.   d;0)  ( < my hat on backwards, George.)  LOL LaCourse

Response:

Oh, forgot to add, George: It is a free raffle, no bidding.  Just a bunch of guys who wanna get together and fish and have a good time.  We all bring a little something and throw it in the pot and then Waldo draws names out of a hat.  We had a blast last May — oh, that’s right, you weren’t there, were you?  Hey, but you did win something in the "non- attendee" raffle.  You want I should add your name again this year, George.   d;0) LaCourse

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no need to donate george, thar will be plenty of scrap bamboo present waldo

; )

Response:

How about if I donate a 55 gallon drum of scrap Bamboo to the Clave’s raffle?  I’m sure daytripper and lacourse would be the highest bidders.

You’re probably right: neither Dave nor I would bid one red cent, while others would be ASKING for money to toss the works in the dumpster… /daytripper

Response:

How about if I donate a 55 gallon drum of scrap Bamboo to the Clave’s raffle?  I’m sure daytripper and lacourse would be the highest bidders. You’re probably right: neither Dave nor I would bid one red cent, while others would be ASKING for money to toss the works in the dumpster… /daytripper

pieces.  You make much to do about nothing, as usual daytripper.  You really need to relax a little more. Mr. G.

Response:

Oh, forgot to add, George: It is a free raffle, no bidding.  Just a bunch of guys who wanna get together and fish and have a good time.  We all bring a little something and throw it in the pot and then Waldo draws names out of a hat.  We had a blast last May — oh, that’s right, you weren’t there, were you?  Hey, but you did win something in the "non- attendee" raffle.  You want I should add your name again this year, George.   d;0) LaCourse

_______  No thank you LaCourse.  I would receive the same thing I did last year. nothing. Mr.G.

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Question:

Has anyone ever been up to Packer Lake in the Sierras? It was mentioned along with Upper and Lower Sardine Lakes.  I’ve been to those.  Stocked regularly… boats with electric motors… cabins next door.  Is Packer the one over the ridge and down in the valley? I think probably a couple mile hike.  How does it fish? jeff — Center for Computational Sciences and Engineering  PHONE: (510)486-5348 Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory              FAX: (510)486-6900

I would fly fish the Gold lakes basin in June or Oct. In August the fish are usually pretty deep. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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Fished Packer Lake several years ago. Tough lake to fish unless youi know it well. Stay with lower Sardine in the evenings. Stocked with lots of nice trout and a beautiful lake.

Response:

Has anyone ever been up to Packer Lake in the Sierras? It was mentioned along with Upper and Lower Sardine Lakes.  I’ve been to those.  Stocked regularly… boats with electric motors… cabins next door.  Is Packer the one over the ridge and down in the valley? I think probably a couple mile hike.  How does it fish? jeff — Center for Computational Sciences and Engineering  PHONE: (510)486-5348 Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory              FAX: (510)486-6900

Response:

Sorry I’m brain-dead this a.m.  These lake where mentioned in "FishFirst"’s report… Sorry for the confusion.  It’s Friday and I’ve only had one cup of coffee (so far) today. jeff — Center for Computational Sciences and Engineering  PHONE: (510)486-5348 Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory              FAX: (510)486-6900

Response:

Question:

We tried to fish the Key West backcountry today

        oh god:  i can’t stand the rest of this post.  just another day in paradise.         thanks for the picture, anyway.                 a. wayne harrison

Response:

We tried to fish the Key West backcountry today but had a 33-knot north wind at 2 AM that really silted up the water.  So we took a long ride out east and then back west to find some clear water on the incoming.  We fished the gulfside flats again because there were so many fish there yesterday. I shut down and started to pole and a permit was on top of us before Carlos could get his rod out.  Finally he made a sitting down cast with about eight feet of line out and the fish tailed just behind the fly, about 15 feet from the boat.  Hmm…good sign, even if he didn’t eat the fly. We poled about four miles west and had maybe eight shots, then got to a flat where there tend to be large fish and had a few really good shots at a fish that was over 30 lbs.  Somehow the casting or the fly didn’t seem to impress this fish, who we found by hearing his explosive tailing way off to our right. We ran back down the flat to fish the lower water section and decided to have lunch before getting into the good part of the flat.  We ate, Lola fell into the water, and after she dried out started down the flat.   About 200 yards into it we saw a good permit parallelling us about 300 ft away.  I poled over, Carlos made a great cast, the permit tailed on the fly and Carlos stripped tight. We caught and weighed him at 24 lbs., took some photos and sent him swimming.   After that we went a few miles west to fish for smaller permit on a hard edge on the low outgoing, we saw a lot of fish, but it was extremely bright and we couldn’t get close to them.  We ran to three more spots, two on the oceanside and saw only one fish in two hours.   Finally we decided to look for tarpon because the wind had dropped.  I ran to a large basin that holds laid-up fish and tarpon were everywhere.  We got three eats on a yellow fly  and one of those fish–about 90 lbs.– jumped about 15 ft. from the boat coming at us. He landed just before hitting the gunwhale, soaking Carlos. Marshall Cutchin  

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Question:

…looks like it has great potential as a fly fishing stream.  Do you know where it is? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Nice cuts and one can actually walk away from the roads. Moose, Elk, Deer and an occasional bear (grizzly) pask

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Question:

Can anyone point me in the direction of Mail Order companies that sell a good range of Fly fishing books. Thanks Simon Simon Lusk Fly Fishing New Zealand on the WWW http://www-aghort.massey.ac.nz/flyfish/intro Department of Consumer Technology Massey University Palmerston North New Zealand

Response:

Hi Three that come to mind are: Dan Bailey’s 1-800-356-4052 Kaufman’s Streamborn  1-800-442-4359 Cabela’s Fly Fishing 1-800-237-4444 Give the 800 # a call and request a catalog. Good Luck Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (catalog avail)

Response:

Try         The Anglers Art         P. O. Box 148         Plainfield, PA 17081         phone (717) 243-9721         fax (717) 243-8603 Very complete and very friendly and helpful. Cheers

Response:

Can anyone point me in the direction of Mail Order companies that sell a good range of Fly fishing books. Thanks Simon

I was just looking through a magazine (about a year old) this morning that had an advertisement.  They claim to have hundreds of titles to choose from.  They are: The Angler’s Art Box 148 Plainfield, PA   17081 Their phone number is:  717-243-9721 and fax line 717-243-8603 Curtis

Response:

Drop an email note to the Brookside Angler in Manchester, VT. They have an extensive list of titles available. Web address http://www.sover.net/~batenkil/flyshop.html

Response:

I’m interested in buying a quality 3 wt outfit – like a Sage LL379 or Thomas & Thomas 7′6" 3 wt paired with possibly a Lamson.  Any dealers or individuals interested in making me an attractive (discounted) offer for the package?. Please contact me by E’mail. Thanks, Mike Ray Atlatna, GA Cashiers, NC

Response:

Drop an email note to the Brookside Angler in Manchester, VT. They have an extensive list of titles available. Web address http://www.sover.net/~batenkil/flyshop.html

Yes try the Merlin Unwin Books catalogue at www.demon.co.uk/M_Unwin_Books or email me for further details Regards

Response:

Can anyone point me in the direction of Mail Order companies that sell a good range of Fly fishing books.

Bennetts of sheffield stock a wide range of videos/ books on the subject. http:/www.dmatters.co.uk/toshops2.html will give you their telephone and fax numbers – just ask them what they have and they will either mail/fax/telephone you. or email them http://www.dmatters.co.uk

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