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Got up. Cleaned the travel trailer. Hung a picture…in my trailer. 1st decoration in my trailer. It’s a caricature of a flyfishing guy and a little story about how the whole purpose of flyfishing is to spend money. It looks good. Thanks Mark, it will be there for as long as I own it. john

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Thanks Mark, it will be there for as long as I own it. john

The picture or the trailer? Op

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Got up. It’s a caricature of a flyfishing guy and a little story about how the whole purpose of flyfishing is to spend money. It looks good. Thanks Mark, it will be there for as long as I own it. john

The picture or the trailer? Wayne to fish is human…to release Divine!!  —–  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the Web  —–   http://newsone.net/ — Free reading and anonymous posting to 60,000+ groups    NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts

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picture? trailer?

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Guiding is a very tough business and dealing with cranks who won’t do as they’re told to catch fish has to be frustrating. I mean, one of the ways that a guide evaluates his own job performance is to tally up the fish count and I don’t have a problem with that per se. But it will be a cold day in hell before Ken Fortenberry is caught using a gawdamn bobber on a fly line. Nothing against those who do, strictly a personal foible, but catching a fish just ain’t all THAT friggin’ important. — Ken Fortenberry- tired of arguing politics, but not tired of arguing

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Guiding is a very tough business and dealing with cranks who won’t do as they’re told to catch fish has to be frustrating. I mean, one of the ways that a guide evaluates his own job performance is to tally up the fish count and I don’t have a problem with that per se. But it will be a cold day in hell before Ken Fortenberry is caught using a gawdamn bobber on a fly line. Nothing against those who do, strictly a personal foible, but catching a fish just ain’t all THAT friggin’ important. — Ken Fortenberry- tired of arguing politics, but not tired of arguing

I’ve never been on a guided fishing (or hunting, or anything) trip, but if the client won’t listen, well, what can you do…  I have worked as a deckhand on Halibut charters in Alaska, and the first instruction to the clients (known affectionately as ‘pukers’) is to hold the weight when the hook is being baited.  It’s often a 2 lb. lead, and holding the hook doesn’t stop it from swinging.  Getting beaned by a 2 lb. lead can leave one hell of a goose egg on the ol’ noggin.  Still, there’s always a couple of pukers every year that don’t listen–and guess who pays the price… I’ve never used a strike indicator, as such.  This past summer, I had the privilege of fishing with Mark Faulkner on Spring Creek near Bellefonte, PA.  He introduced me to the ‘dry as an indicator’ method, which seems like a good idea and could catch fish now and then, too. I’ve got a friend who ties his own leaders and uses Stren HiVis Gold for some of the thicker sections of his leaders as a sort of ‘in-line indicator’. In general, though, I’ll have to agree.  Bobbers (by any other name, still a bobber) and fly fishing don’t mix. Tom G how about them Nittany Lions, eh? Before you buy.

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But it will be a cold day in hell before Ken Fortenberry is caught using a gawdamn bobber on a fly line.

Why would you use a bobber with a dry? You don’t mean you are nymphing, do you? Why, that’s just like using freeze dried bait<g. — Charlie…

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But it will be a cold day in hell before Ken Fortenberry is caught using a gawdamn bobber on a fly line. Nothing against those who do, strictly a personal foible, but catching a fish just ain’t all THAT friggin’ important.

Yeah but what about those bloody mud sucking fish who don’t show a trace of having taken the fly – or are you only talking about bobbers and not yarn strike indicators. — Ken Fortenberry- tired of arguing politics, but not tired of arguing

Ari Bert                                        Gaelle Bert +27 (0) 83 232 9903                             +27 (0) 83 236 5308 Flyfishing Corner +27 (0) 11 447 7230                             Shop 94, Admirals Court +27 (0) 11 882 8537 (fax)                       Cnr Craddock & Tyrwhitt www.troutfishing.co.za                        Street, Rosebank P.O.Box 79067 Senderwood 2145 South Africa

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I use a bivisible about 18" to 2′ up from a dry.  These old eyes just can’t see a #22 or #24 midge dry 30" away. Bob in El Paso – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But it will be a cold day in hell before Ken Fortenberry is caught using a gawdamn bobber on a fly line. Why would you use a bobber with a dry? You don’t mean you are nymphing, do you? Why, that’s just like using freeze dried bait<g. — Charlie…

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My, perhaps odd, definitions: strike indicator – anything that indicates a fish has taken a fly – leader, knots, line, floaties – and the fly! especially ones with wings to see for miles. Bobber – a device that suspends a fly at a fixed depth- leader, line, knots, floaties and a fly itself could be in that class (eg: parachute tied apart from body so it suspends body well below film) IMO, leaving floaties out of these groups still leaves a whole lot of strike indicators and bobbers that you are using. If you ever de/grease a leader … Steve (As ever – just tired – apologies if this shows up twice

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 There’s a whole range of "indicators" ranging from a "bobber" to a colored a colored leader link, that I seem to remember you use. The question is how far are you willing to go?  A colored leader butt, a smear of flor. putty on the leader knots, a dry fly as an indicator, yarn, cork, foam, etc. etc. etc. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Guiding is a very tough business and dealing with cranks who won’t do as they’re told to catch fish has to be frustrating. I mean, one of the ways that a guide evaluates his own job performance is to tally up the fish count and I don’t have a problem with that per se. But it will be a cold day in hell before Ken Fortenberry is caught using a gawdamn bobber on a fly line. Nothing against those who do, strictly a personal foible, but catching a fish just ain’t all THAT friggin’ important. — Ken Fortenberry- tired of arguing politics, but not tired of arguing

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Ken Fortenberry writes: But it will be a cold day in hell before Ken Fortenberry is caught using a gawdamn bobber on a fly line. Nothing against those who do, strictly a personal foible, but catching a fish just ain’t all THAT friggin’ important.

Man, you’ll say just about *anything* to get in an argument.  <g So, tell me, old wise one, how are you going to detect strikes?  You *could* watch the end of your floating line, that’ll work.  But then you are using *it* as a strike indicator.  So, to be a purist, you can not watch your line — it’s a strike indicator.  Aha, you will go by feel, right?  Well, for every fish you feel take the nymph, 99 have preceeded him.  And if you *feel* it, the fish has caught itself; you had nothing to do with it.  That ain’t fishing.  That’s hookin’!   <g Best to stay home and fish parachute Adams.  But I am looking forward to seeing you on the SJ.  Should be a great time. Dave L.

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Best to stay home and fish parachute Adams.  But I am looking forward to seeing you on the SJ.  Should be a great time.

We should be able to find some fish midging on the surface or feeding on midge clusters. Willi

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Bob Instead of the #22-24 midges . . . why not go to a Griffets Knat in a 16 or 18. The rationale is that the midges are hatching from egg clusters just under the surface. The GK mimics the dimple of the egg cluster in the meniscus, the fish are usually slurping the egg clusters anyway (not the midges) and ITS BIG EFUFF to SEE. There is no way that #24 is going to look like anything real with the tippit and knot, with any daylight at all. Dave

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Bob Instead of the #22-24 midges . . . why not go to a Griffets Knat in a 16 or 18. The rationale is that the midges are hatching from egg clusters just under the surface. The GK mimics the dimple of the egg cluster in the meniscus, the fish are usually slurping the egg clusters anyway (not the midges) and ITS BIG EFUFF to SEE.

My understanding of midge clusters is that they hatch as individuals and then the clusters are formed when the adults gather in groups in the slow water near the banks.  These masses of midges can be VERY large in fertile waters. Current wind etc. will break off parts of these masses and the fish will take these clusters. Sometimes there aren’t enough clusters around for the fish to key into them.  Often the fish will key into feeding on individual pupas either in or just under the film. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is no way that #24 is going to look like anything real with the tippit and knot, with any daylight at all. Dave

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But it will be a cold day in hell before Ken Fortenberry is caught using a gawdamn bobber on a fly line. Nothing against those who do, strictly a personal foible, but catching a fish just ain’t all THAT friggin’ important.

I’m on the fence on this one. I far prefer to fish without an indicator, but I will use when I feel it’s warranted. My home water contains a large number of fish that feed on midge larvae. Their take is extremely subtle, and I do often fish for them with an indicator. On the other hand, I fished in Northern New Hampshire for a week, using mainly nymphs, and was quite successful without once using an indicator. Faster water, larger flies, more aggressive fish, all make a difference. I definitely agree that guides rely far to much on using indicators, especially when teaching beginners. Many newbies I’ve observed the past few years never remove the indicator, even when attempting to fish dry. One afternoon in New Hampshire, I was fishing across the stream from a couple who had hired a guide as an instructor. He was spending most of his time with the wife, (big surprise), and had her casting reasonably well with a huge indicator about 3′ above some sort of nymph. After about a half hour, fish began to rise, I tied on a #14 Usual, and caught three or four fish in short order. The guide asked me what I was using, but never once suggested that either one of his sports switch over to a dry. Too bad, because the woman was in a perfect position for a long drift over several good fish. Would have been an ideal opportunity to introduce her to the joys of catching fish on a dry. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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But it will be a cold day in hell before Ken Fortenberry is caught using a gawdamn bobber on a fly line. Nothing against those who do, strictly a personal foible, but catching a fish just ain’t all THAT friggin’ important.

I’ve always liked the fact that you and I have similar fishing tastes and likes. However on your upcoming trip to the Juan, and IF the fish are not keying on the emergers in the surface film, you will more than likely be fishing midges in the 22-26 range, a bobber is almost a requirement, along with ability to mend, mend, mend, and then mend again. I spent an entire morning ignoring my guide and a more experienced Juan fisherman, only when I acquiensed and used the indicator could I detect the strikes. — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas Before you buy.

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Willi writes: We should be able to find some fish midging on the surface or feeding on midge clusters.

I’m planning on it, Willi.  But, after tying some of these iddybiddythingies, I doubt I’ll be able to see ‘em on the water! <g Now, a big old yarn indicator — easy to see!!!!!   d;0) Dave

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Willi, Some of my recent tying attempts are #18 Griffith’s Gnats. Are these small enough for the San Juan? I’ve got some #20 and #22 hooks on order just in case. Danl (home today with back spasms. its hell gettin old) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We should be able to find some fish midging on the surface or feeding on midge clusters. Willi

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Guiding is a very tough business and dealing with cranks who won’t do as they’re told to catch fish has to be frustrating. I mean, one of the ways that a guide evaluates his own job performance is to tally up the fish count and I don’t have a problem with that per se. But it will be a cold day in hell before Ken Fortenberry is caught using a gawdamn bobber on a fly line. Nothing against those who do, strictly a personal foible, but catching a fish just ain’t all THAT friggin’ important. — Ken Fortenberry- tired of arguing politics, but not tired of arguing

I’m going to be indelicate again (but not irrelevant) – weren’t you using one of the Muskegon.  <g  But we drew the line at egg flies, eh? BTW – the P. Charles distinction between bobbers and strike indicators. === A bobber will float your rig, a strike indicator won’t. Peter – the honest broker who admits to using a bobber ’cause he can’t nymph fish worth a shit, especially without one.

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We should be able to find some fish midging on the surface or feeding on midge clusters.

That’s my understanding as well, and one of the reasons I decided to make the trip. Somewhere between France and Urbana is a silk flyline with my name on it. It will be here in time to be spooled up on a Hardy Princess for use on an old Granger Aristocrat. Can’t think of a better place to wet a new flyline for the first time than with a bunch of ROFFians on a world famous trout stream. — Ken Fortenberry

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But it will be a cold day in hell before Ken Fortenberry is caught using a gawdamn bobber on a fly line. Nothing against those who do, strictly a personal foible, but catching a fish just ain’t all THAT friggin’ important.

Ken, please ask Mr. Fortenberry to define "strike indicator" for us if he wouldn’t mind. –Steve

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: So, tell me, old wise one, how are you going to detect strikes?   [...] : feel take the nymph, 99 have preceeded him.  And if you *feel* it, Ya know, the best of ‘em simply *know* when a fish has taken… JonCook. — Not that I’m one of them, but I bet Willi is

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1. all the pins are down 2. you cross a picket line 3. your nose is bleeding 4. there are lines through all of your letters 5. the player is walking back to the dugout —

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I’m going to be indelicate again (but not irrelevant) – weren’t you using one of the Muskegon.  <g

Yes, that was a gift from Herman Nijland, an ingenious piece of work involving a very small metal ring and a piece of yarn, a "hinged leader system" I believe he called it. I still have it somewhere, but it’s not really my cup of tea and I didn’t use it for the steelhead, those I dredged up with a small black stonefly nymph and no indicator. But we drew the line at egg flies, eh?

And the poor guide looked to be close to tears when we told him so. BTW – the P. Charles distinction between bobbers and strike indicators. === A bobber will float your rig, a strike indicator won’t.

As good a distinction as any. If I’m gettin’ skunked and the guide is taking it personally, I could probably be convinced to catch a fish using whatever flyfishing method is legal in that locale. I’m not impervious to a guide’s discomfort, but someone coined a phrase one time about the customer always being right. — Ken Fortenberry

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Regarding the SJ:  You’ve got to be pretty damn slick up there to NEVER use an indicator because  1.  sometimes the fish are deep and/or the water’s not clear enough to see them  2.  their take is notoriously subtle. I use everything from a big yarn ball 11 ft from my flies to a small foam one to a dry fly to nothing, watching for my leader/tippet to straighten.  And yes i fish plenty of dries. Hopefully Channer will be there to provide tips to those who don’t want any lead or yarn on their leader.  Less discriminating flyfishers can cut a "lifetime supply" of yarn from my spool and follow me.  I fish nymphs, dries, and emergers there and with nymphs and emergers and even sometimes dries i’ll have an indicator of some type. Dave, a size 22 with a knot and everything still looks like a midge, and on some days on that river you’ll catch twice as many fish with a 24 and even more on a 26, no kidding. bruce h Before you buy.

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That’s my understanding as well, and one of the reasons I decided to make the trip. Somewhere between France and Urbana is a silk flyline with my name on it. It will be here in time to be spooled up on a Hardy Princess for use on an old Granger Aristocrat. Can’t think of a better place to wet a new flyline for the first time than with a bunch of ROFFians on a world famous trout stream.

Ah, the irony! Striking a blow for Piscatorial Purity — the silk line, the venerable rod and reel, the death-before-strike-indicators stance — on the banks of the San Juan river, a place where flyfishing for trout wouldn’t even exist were it not for that big ole dam and its tailwaterrific releases! Course, I usually wear plus-fours to the mini-golf course , – sid

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Ah, the irony! …

How true. Must be something in the air this fall. Ds arguing for states rights, R’s looking to the federal courts for injunctive relief and yours truly fishin’ a tailwater. Can the apocalypse be far behind ? — Ken Fortenberry

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Willi writes: We should be able to find some fish midging on the surface or feeding on midge clusters. I’m planning on it, Willi.  But, after tying some of these iddybiddythingies, I doubt I’ll be able to see ‘em on the water! <g Now, a big old yarn indicator — easy to see!!!!!   d;0)

Any surface fishing will probably be to individual fish in slow water areas.  It’s best to fish these from upstream letting the fly drift down before the tippet. Even if you can’t see the fly, you have a pretty good idea where it is and you can strike on the take. I’ve only fished the Juan a couple of times but when I did, I found that you could drag your fly directly into the correct feeding lane several feet above the rising fish without disturbing it. The rest is timing the drift, getting a drag free one and having an acceptable fly. The fish don’t get put down easilly and they will give you many chances (which you’ll probably need.) Willi

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Question:

In one case a guy went after people in another nearby tent with a chain saw.

Great Caesar’s Ghost!  What happened?  Was the chain saw running?  If it was, he certainly wasn’t trying to be sneaky.    Robert

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goodnight Tokyo Rose: The dolly llama has been shorn. I hear they make great sweaters and the meat aint all that bad too eat either. just remember life is only as big as your wardrobe:)

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Sorry about the misfortune, but as someone stated – it is relatively uncommon. I remember being robbed in the Dublin Youth Hostel. It was a six-bed-dorm and I have put my trekking jacket between me and the wall and it was gone the next morning…boy, I was so mad and disappointed. But out there, it never happened to me and I have done camping all over Europe. I am sure that everybody will keep the core valuables always at the body anyway, right. You need to put the trust in others, or you may prefer to stop doing hikes and that will be a real loss. Relax, hike and keep your eyes open! Tim

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: You’ve got to read more history.  Read about the really old : not-so-good days of the areas you wander through.  Every one of them : has stories of murders, thefts, some have cannibalism, etc.. I agree that the whole notion of the "good old days" is nothing more than selective memory and wishful thinking.  I always wonder exactly when were the "good old days".

                                     snip< Generally agree with both of you. My thinking trends toward the idea that the "good old days" is a myth. Would anyone here consider taking a solo trip on a main highway in medieval Europe?  Not without a prominent display of arms I hope. The further back you look, the worse it was.  Certainly there are many regions today where you still take your chances.  Robbers in Guatemala, Taxi drivers in Mexico City who rob their fares, and fanatic separatists in the Himalaya who have beheaded western trekkers. I still feel safer in the relatively benign North American backcountry than in any large North American city.   – Robert

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I’ve found that anything that charges a fee, however small, to get in is quieter and better behaved than anything that doesn’t.  Anything that has an official occasionally in sight is quieter and better behaved.  Our State Parks are safer than my home neighborhood.  Our State Forests, however, are the one place I’ve had serious trouble and where the formal campsites are ‘party-’til-you-puke’ fav spots for local youth.  That said, I’d still say that most of the State Forest sites are wonderful  and mostly safer than my home neighborhood (is it time I moved?)   General putins for lakes and rivers and popular trailheads in the mid part of the state are iffy.  If there’s a State Park to leave my vehicle in, I’d generally rather paddle a couple of miles extra rather than leave my vehicle at a couple of the putins I’ve tried.  Not had any trouble, but too much of a place that anyone can drive into and more troubled (or partying) youth problems and some extra of weirdos.  There’s at least one place near a fav river that’d be perfect to put my little kayak in at.  Except for the broken beer and booze bottles and the sickening smell of the trash heap that’s occasionally used for bonfires.  I’ve driven down to it, gotten out and looked and driven right away.  Local vehicles might be safe there, but I’m pretty sure mine wouldn’t be.  In fact, when I paddle or hike past it, I never even see local vehicles, which is another bad sign. However, up by the BWAC, I’ve seen trailheads/putins with every yuppie vehicle one could imagine, all looking  perfectly fine except for the dust on some that shows they’ve been there for at least a full week. Down in mid state and lower I’ve left my own vehicle for days at a time with perfect safety and heard little of any problems. Look before you park or camp.  Most places are safe.  Some are obviously not.  Think before you leave your vehicle.  If possible, find out about the local area.  Try asking at the nearest small convenience store.  Look around if there’s any housing nearby.  Does it look as if it costs a bit and is well maintained?  Then they’ll be even more anxious than you for the place to be safe.  Realize that crime, like lightning, can strike anywhere, but it’s got some favorite places.  Try to learn the signs.  If it strikes anyway, try to be philosophical about it if you live through it.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | We have camped for years and never have had an incident, so try to | consider this unusual.  You should be fine if you go to a state park, | private park or National Forest. Alot of the parks have locked gates | now. (you get the combo)  If you "boondock" you stand more of a chance | of being vandalized or tormented.  Be positive about your future plans, | you will enjoy the outdoors, I’m sure. | Happy Trails, | Joyce National Forests are not necessarily "safe". In my state (NH) we have had many incidents of trouble at National Forest campgrounds (some of these being "backcountry" sites), mainly caused by drunkeness. In one case a guy went after people in another nearby tent with a chain saw. Car break-ins at trailheads are extremely common here also.

—– I’m going to live forever or die trying. I only answer my email every few months, on average.   Patience helps.   http://www.visi.com/~cyli

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: You’ve got to read more history.  Read about the really old : not-so-good days of the areas you wander through.  Every one of them : has stories of murders, thefts, some have cannibalism, etc..  Society : is not necessarily becoming something.  You may just be becoming more : aware.  For really good old fashioned fun, read about the old Natchez : Trace.  You’d not have gone near it in its true ‘wilderness’ phase. I agree that the whole notion of the "good old days" is nothing more than selective memory and wishful thinking.  I always wonder exactly when were the "good old days".  Assuming they are supposed to be post industrial revolution… looking at the 1900’s… excluding various wars, the Great Depression, etc, what’s left?  The 1950’s?  Maybe if you were a white male.  In any case, hardly representative of our country’s past. — Dave Hinds

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: How disheartening! : My wife and I have decided to begin camping this year and through recent : Christmas and birthday gifts, accumulated enough gear to be fairly prepared : campers.  This year will consist mostly of car camping, with aspirations to : become backpackers as our experience and skills accumulate. : While the lure of camping and the wilderness are strong to us, the only : concern that we still have is that of being robbed or (worse) harassed by : others.  Your disappointing story only strengthens this concern. : This is a special concern since one of our major motives to camp is weekend : access to great fly fishing.  Plans to do so would have us both a distance : from camp while fishing and no eyes on our site and gear for hours at a : time. : Can any of the experienced members of the group offer suggestions to keeping : our campsite and gear secure to prevent such occurrences?  Of all the : camping & outdoors books we’ve read, none address the subject! I’d reckon the that a brandnew shiny car would be more likely to be broken into than an old heap. —    "do the boogie woogie in the South American way"                            Rhumba Boogie- Hank Snow (1955)

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| We have camped for years and never have had an incident, so try to | consider this unusual.  You should be fine if you go to a state park, | priviate park or National Forest. Alot of the parks have locked gates | now. (you get the combo)  If you "boondock" you stand more of a chance | of being vandalized or tormented.  Be positive about your future plans, | you will enjoy the outdoors, I’m sure. | Happy Trails, | Joyce National Forests are not necessarily "safe". In my state (NH) we have had many incidents of trouble at National Forest campgrounds (some of these being "backcountry" sites), mainly caused by drunkeness. In one case a guy went after people in another nearby tent with a chain saw. Car break-ins at trailheads are extremely common here also.

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We have camped for years and never have had an incident, so try to consider this unusual.  You should be fine if you go to a state park, priviate park or National Forest. Alot of the parks have locked gates now. (you get the combo)  If you "boondock" you stand more of a chance of being vandalized or tormented.  Be positive about your future plans, you will enjoy the outdoors, I’m sure. Happy Trails, Joyce

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Eddie Babin wrote It’s a tragedy it’s come to this where the only person in hundreds of square miles may be one you can’t trust.  I don’t know if anyone has provided any real statistical evidence but it’s my firm belief that you are much less likely to encounter people problems in the backcountry than anywhere else.  As a matter of fact, there’s no place I feel safer.  That, however, does not quell my apprehension about trail head parking. ed

It is pretty shocking to hear about people being robbed in the bush camping. I live in Canada and I have heard about a cabin being broken into but never a tent in a camp site. I often go camping/hiking as far in to the wilderness as I can go and even though I sometimes rarely see other people, when I do I am usually more wary. How sad is society becoming!

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… It is pretty shocking to hear about people being robbed in the bush camping. I live in Canada and I have heard about a cabin being broken into but never a tent in a camp site. I often go camping/hiking as far in to the wilderness as I can go and even though I sometimes rarely see other people, when I do I am usually more wary. How sad is society becoming!

Becoming? I don’t have any reason to think that things are getting any worse. There is a part in each of us, some more than others, who will prey on others and behave opportunistically, particularly when the chances of being caught are virtually zero. Witness rioting and looting in cities after sporting matches, looting when public order breaks down after a natural disaster, and those itinerant cowboys and trappers who carried their heavy, short range 6-guns — they had them, not for fun, but to enforce their understanding of fairness, at least for 50 yards in all directions. Most people in the backcountry, like most people in the city, will treat you pretty generously, and certainly not rip you off. But the risk is always there, so don’t bet your lunch money (or your backcountry survival) on the goodness of your fellow man or woman. — Jeff ORBS Classifieds – Free outdoor classified ads     http://home.pacbell.net/orbs ORBS Escrow – Affordable safety for online buyers and sellers     http://home.pacbell.net/orbs/oe-homepage.html

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You’ve got to read more history.  Read about the really old not-so-good days of the areas you wander through.  Every one of them has stories of murders, thefts, some have cannibalism, etc..  Society is not necessarily becoming something.  You may just be becoming more aware.  For really good old fashioned fun, read about the old Natchez Trace.  You’d not have gone near it in its true ‘wilderness’ phase.

 I sometimes rarely see other people, when I do I am usually more wary. How sad is society becoming!

—– I’m going to live forever or die trying. I only answer my email every few months, on average.   Patience helps.   http://www.visi.com/~cyli

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: While the lure of camping and the wilderness are strong to us, the only : concern that we still have is that of being robbed or (worse) harassed by : others.  Your disappointing story only strengthens this concern. : This is a special concern since one of our major motives to camp is weekend : access to great fly fishing.  Plans to do so would have us both a distance : from camp while fishing and no eyes on our site and gear for hours at a : time. : Can any of the experienced members of the group offer suggestions to keeping : our campsite and gear secure to prevent such occurrences?  Of all the : camping & outdoors books we’ve read, none address the subject! It’s a tragedy it’s come to this where the only person in hundreds of square miles may be one you can’t trust.  I don’t know if anyone has provided any real statistical evidence but it’s my firm belief that you are much less likely to encounter people problems in the backcountry than anywhere else.  As a matter of fact, there’s no place I feel safer.  That, however, does not quell my apprehension about trail head parking. ed — | 21st Century Systems -+- http://www.tf-centsys.com |

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You cached them to keep them from being stolen in the first place, yet you imply your faith/trust in your fellow man is somehow diminished and ask how far you have to go in hiding your cache?  Did you lock your vehicle?  If so, why?

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How disheartening! My wife and I have decided to begin camping this year and through recent Christmas and birthday gifts, accumulated enough gear to be fairly prepared campers.  This year will consist mostly of car camping, with aspirations to become backpackers as our experience and skills accumulate. While the lure of camping and the wilderness are strong to us, the only concern that we still have is that of being robbed or (worse) harassed by others.  Your disappointing story only strengthens this concern. This is a special concern since one of our major motives to camp is weekend access to great fly fishing.  Plans to do so would have us both a distance from camp while fishing and no eyes on our site and gear for hours at a time. Can any of the experienced members of the group offer suggestions to keeping our campsite and gear secure to prevent such occurrences?  Of all the camping & outdoors books we’ve read, none address the subject! Thanks! –Andy Charlotte, NC

Response:

How disheartening! While the lure of camping and the wilderness are strong to us, the only concern that we still have is that of being robbed or (worse) harassed by others.  Your disappointing story only strengthens this concern. Can any of the experienced members of the group offer suggestions to keeping our campsite and gear secure to prevent such occurrences?  Of all the camping & outdoors books we’ve read, none address the subject!

First let me re-inforce what I understood about the original post:   The theift was by, persons who were given to vandelism and thieft. IE: the gate was broken open as well as the items stolen. This is not common, IMHO, to many camping situations.  I have been car camping off and on for 20 years.  I have yet to be victim of a thieft, except by raccoons and squirles who help themselves to unsecured food. I am a car camper and have primarily used state camp grounds which are pretty well petroled.   I also find it interesting that when talk of camping security is brought up, no one seems to be concerned at all about the home they have left miles behind.   It does seem to me that an unprotected house  abandoned for a week or more would be a much easier target than a campsite where people are at had and may re-appear at any moment.  Yet no one is the least bit alarmed by leaving thier home, but fearful nearly to the point of panic about their camp site, or am I just nieve? But the case remains the same, I do not know that their is any absolute safeguard against people who are determined to be criminal. Whether the domicile is permanent or temporary. Fortuantely I choose to believe, and have discovered that criminals are still in the manority {except in Washington, DC }. Regards David Ronk To reply via e-mail remove "not_" from address.     By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer      meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)      (1)(C), it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to      such equipment, punishable by action to recover actual monetary      loss, or $500, whichever is greater, for EACH violation.    Please do not send unsolicited commercial mail to my email account.

Response:

David, Sorry to read about your snowshoe theft at Dolly Sods. I’ve visited there dozens of times without incident (though not in the winter). I hope yours was an isolated incident. I’d suggest that the idiot(s) who broke down the gate may not have been the same ones to steal your stuff. The gate-breaking sounds like the act of some yahoo who’s just pissed off to find a closed road, thinking (wrongly) that he has a right to travel that road. I can certainly imagine that the same dickweed, in his pissed off state, would also be given to stealing someone else’s gear. However, I’d also bet that the sort of loser who would ram a gate with his car couldn’t be bothered to walk 100 feet off road to find your snowshoes–unless they were clearly visible from the road (but sounds like they weren’t). I’m thinking somebody probably just stumbled across them, and thought they were "easy pickings." Again, sorry; and thanks for the warning–I’ll be more careful there in the future. Rob

Response:

January 25th, 1999 This past weekend, John, Jeff and I set out from Maryland on a four-hour drive to Monongahela National Forest, in West Virginia.  Expecting winter weather, John and I brought our new, unused Yuba XSV-32’s, while our friend Jeff brought along some snowshoes that he had rented from REI (just in case anyone hears anything, they were Atlas 1033’s (9" x 29")).  When we got to Dolly Sods on Thursday evening, the final gate on SR 75, about 3 miles from the plateau, was locked.  There were about three inches of wet snow on the road surface, so thinking that there would be more up on the plateau, we strapped snowshoes to our packs and headed up.  Once up on top, a warm wind and melting permafrost greeted us.  We hastily made camp, since we had arrived after sundown, and bedded down for the night.  In the morning, we packed up our gear, took a look at the forecast, and decided to stash the snowshoes.  We chose a location 100 feet away from the road and well shielded by dense pine trees and stashed the

Question:

I’ve recently started flyfishing again after several years. Last week, while in a local flyfishing shop, I saw a stomach pump for trout. Has anyone ever used one of these? And if so, did it work well? How stressful was it on the trout? Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

I’ve never used one of these and frankly won’t. Some of these I’ve seen caution about possible injury to the fish if the fish is to be released. used improperly it could rupture the fishes gut. Would you pump your child’s stomach or take them to doctor? Better to kill the 1st fish and check the stomach contents. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

Response:

I’ve recently started flyfishing again after several years. Last week, while in a local flyfishing shop, I saw a stomach pump for trout. Has anyone ever used one of these? And if so, did it work well? How stressful was it on the trout? Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. —                          webpage:   http://www.halcyon.com/macdanny/                         To email, remove anti-spam "XX" from address.

Response:

I’ve recently started flyfishing again after several years. Last week, while in a local flyfishing shop, I saw a stomach pump for trout. Has anyone ever used one of these? And if so, did it work well? How stressful was it on the trout? Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. —                          webpage:   http://www.halcyon.com/macdanny/                         To email, remove anti-spam "XX" from address.

Danny boy, We locals will use one of those damned things on the day that we volunteer for an air contrast barium enema and prostate exam on the same day.  I don’t want to know that badly.  If you insist, use it only on large fish.  Probably crawdads and minnows anyway. Jack Morgan Sheridan, MT

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve recently started flyfishing again after several years. Last week, while in a local flyfishing shop, I saw a stomach pump for trout. Has anyone ever used one of these? And if so, did it work well? How stressful was it on the trout? Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. —                          webpage:   http://www.halcyon.com/macdanny/                         To email, remove anti-spam "XX" from address. Danny boy, We locals will use one of those damned things on the day that we volunteer for an air contrast barium enema and prostate exam on the same day.  I don’t want to know that badly.  If you insist, use it only on large fish.  Probably crawdads and minnows anyway. Jack Morgan Sheridan, MT

I do not recommend using the stomach pump if you plan on releasing the fish and having it live.  Too much stress on the fish.  

Response:

I’ve recently started flyfishing again after several years. Last week, while in a local flyfishing shop, I saw a stomach pump for trout. Has anyone ever used one of these? And if so, did it work well? How stressful was it on the trout?

I think if used properly, it won’t harm fish much. First off, it’s not really a "stomach" pump, it’s more of a "gullet" pump.  It only sucks up stuff from the fishes throat, which is what you really want anyway – that’s what the fish has been eating most recently.  Even if you did jam the thing all the way into the poor fishes stomach, all you’d get is a slimy gob of mostly digested stuff the fish ate a day ago anyway. Second, you should only use one on larger fish, 14" and over. Third, use it quickly – compress the bulb, place swiftly at the back of the fishes throat, suck, and promptly remove. That said, I’m not sure how useful they are on a regular basis, but occasionally they can provide some insight into a fishes diet. — Jeff Benjamin                benji(at)fc.hp.com Hewlett Packard Co.      Fort Collins, Colorado (Direct reply won’t work:  use address in .sig) "Think!  It ain’t illegal yet." -George Clinton

Response:

I’ve recently started flyfishing again after several years. Last week, while in a local flyfishing shop, I saw a stomach pump for trout. Has anyone ever used one of these? And if so, did it work well? How stressful was it on the trout? Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Of course the first problem is to catch the fish, and once you’ve done that you know at least one thing that works.   8^ Further, used improperly you will burst the fish’s stomach, and used properly you will at least steal all the food they’ve eaten in the last couple of hours.  Since a fish can’t spend more energy than it takes in or it dies, you more than stress the fish.  If you are going to release the fish, best not to use one.  If you are going to keep the fish, you may as well cut open the digestive tract to examine the contents.  In either case, IMO a stomach pump is not needed.                               Good Fishing,                                    Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

Response:

Those that use them, especially for trout, find lots of specifics about insects and other creatures that have been eaten.  Stomach contents are very easily recognized as long as they have been consumed recently. One word of caution:  Many who do this on a regular basis recommend replacing the reduced stomach contents with an equal amount of water taken from the stream or body of water where the fish was caught. Although one bulb full might seem insignificant to us, relative to the fish’s size, it’s a huge amount.  Replacing the volume removed by pumping out the contents helps to equalize the fish’s body pressure . Best Regards, I’ve recently started flyfishing again after several years. Last week, while in a local flyfishing shop, I saw a stomach pump for trout. Has anyone ever used one of these? And if so, did it work well? How stressful was it on the trout? Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. —                         webpage:   http://www.halcyon.com/macdanny/                        To email, remove anti-spam "XX" from address.

         Trent Roberson            Rx F Fish  For Your Good Health, Fly Fish URL=http://www.xnet.com/~rxffish

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think if used properly, it won’t harm fish much. First off, it’s not really a "stomach" pump, it’s more of a "gullet" pump.  It only sucks up stuff from the fishes throat, which is what you really want anyway – that’s what the fish has been eating most recently.  Even if you did jam the thing all the way into the poor fishes stomach, all you’d get is a slimy gob of mostly digested stuff the fish ate a day ago anyway. Second, you should only use one on larger fish, 14" and over. Third, use it quickly – compress the bulb, place swiftly at the back of the fishes throat, suck, and promptly remove. That said, I’m not sure how useful they are on a regular basis, but occasionally they can provide some insight into a fishes diet.

well dude, in my point of view, using this kind of stuff is for predators or non sport fishermans (real ones). If you realy want to know the fish diet is to look arround, spend 1 morning and 1 evening, and teher you are.. that’s all, so easy. On this way you can know what you want and realy enjoy the outdoor, and of course the fishing… — Simon Zlachevsky http://www.scc.puc.cl/~szlachev/ Trata a los demas como te gustaria que te trataran a ti!                 /)                       O      /(                       |     /                       |   /                      /                 /             **                         ‘ () ‘                    ” /”                               UuUuUuUuUuU  Fly fishing, enjoy the outdoors, release the fish

Response:

Question:

Hi I am looking for a few pages of diagrams showing basic knot patterns for tying thick line to leader, leader to fly, etc. Anyone have any ideas? Leon

Response:

Hi I am looking for a few pages of diagrams showing basic knot patterns for tying thick line to leader, leader to fly, etc. Anyone have any ideas? Leon

Leon: Try this site: http://www.tika.on.ca/multi.html?where=Yahoo&what=BERKLEY%20TRILENE It’s Berkeley’s "Tips, Tricks and Techniques" and shows some of the better knots with diagrams. DAMN ALL SPAM!! To send me an e-mail, remove NOSPAM in my address.

Response:

Hi I am looking for a few pages of diagrams showing basic knot patterns for tying thick line to leader, leader to fly, etc. Anyone have any ideas? Leon

there was a web page with several knots and tech info on each.  do a search , especially for the orvis knot.  i remember that one for sure on that page.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I am looking for a few pages of diagrams showing basic knot patterns for tying thick line to leader, leader to fly, etc. Anyone have any ideas? Leon Leon: Try this site: http://www.tika.on.ca/multi.html?where=Yahoo&what=BERKLEY%20TRILENE It’s Berkeley’s "Tips, Tricks and Techniques" and shows some of the better knots with diagrams. DAMN ALL SPAM!! To send me an e-mail, remove NOSPAM in my address.

Whoops, sorry, I gave you the wrong URL.  It should have been:         http://www.fishingworld.com/Berkley/Tips-n-Tricks/ and includes some info on knots, rigs, and spooling reels. DAMN ALL SPAM!! To send me an e-mail, remove NOSPAM in my address.

Response:

Hi I am looking for a few pages of diagrams showing basic knot patterns for tying thick line to leader, leader to fly, etc. Anyone have any ideas? Leon

G’day Leon, You’ll find a description and diagram for fishing knots at the following URL at Fishinternet Australia, http://www.fishnet.com.au/fishylinks.html Just go to the FISHING INFORMATION section. Also Geoff Wilson outlines a knot each month in his web page at, http://www.fishnet.com.au/GW.html Regards, David —  Webmaster Fishinternet Australia           http://www.fishnet.com.au  Phone: 0417 343 242                  GET Netted Australia Web Design

Response:

Question:

I have been fishing the Red River below Denison Dam for some years now and can be quite sucessful when the generators are not "on" – discharging water. An average spring morning from 6am to 8am will produce 10 to 20 small stripers averaging 12" to18". Great on a 5 to 8wt. However during the spring, the water is normally being discharged due to spring rains and this is my problem. I have never been able to consistantly catch fish with the water flowing. Under these conditions I use a 10wt sinking tip line and all the normal flies that work with the the "water off". Bait fishing with live shad or minnows is normally great during this water flow so I would expect flyrodding to be the same,-but not for me. I have a boat designed especially for flyfishing the river which is quite safe and effective.

Response:

I have been fishing the Red River below Denison Dam for some years now and can be quite successful when the generators are "off" – not discharging water. An average spring morning from 6am to 8am will produce 10 to 20 small stripers averaging 12" to 18". Great on a 5 to 8wt. However during the spring, the water is normally being discharged due to spring rains and this is my problem. I have never been able to consistantly catch fish with the water flowing. Under these conditions I use a 10wt. with fast sinking tip line and all the flies that work with the water "off". Bait fishing with live shad or minnows is normally great during this type of water flow so I would expect flyrodding to be the same,-but not for me. I have a boat designed especially for flyfishing this river which is quite safe and effective. For a picture of the boat and my son see www.2ducks.com/boats.html Would be happy to take out some experienced flyrodders that can teach me the tricks of this particular aspect of flyfishing. ANY SUGGESTIONS would be appreciated. If you think it may be my fly selection, please let me know. I commonly use clousers of all colors, all sizes, some top water poppers. I have not been able to tie the large 8" flies, but the average striper caught is <20" so I would not think this is the problem. I am not a guide, just an avid sportsman living 5 miles from the dam. Can fish 2 – 3 flyrods out of the boat at a time so bring an experianced friend if you would like. I normally can fish from 5pm to sunset weekdays, Fridays 1pm to sunset, and all day on the weekends. If we don’t catch any fish you can buy my lunch at Burger King. Water temperature is 48 and rising and the floodgates are now open. Have private access to the river.

Response:

Question:

What would the readers recommend for fly patterns.  I am planning to use a floating line with a surface fly for a strike indicator and a midge or scud or brassie for the dropper.  The dropper will be tied to the bend of the surface fly and extend for 1.5 times the depth of the water that I find myself fishing in. What would you recommend for the surface fly/dropper combinations and please include size and color recommendations. Thanks in advance. Dan —  Intel, Corp.  5000 W. Chandler Blvd.  Chandler, AZ  85226

Response:

: What would the readers recommend for fly patterns.  I am planning to use a : floating line with a surface fly for a strike indicator and a midge or scud or : brassie for the dropper.  The dropper will be tied to the bend of the surface : fly and extend for 1.5 times the depth of the water that I find myself fishing : in. : : What would you recommend for the surface fly/dropper combinations and please : include size and color recommendations. If you use a search engine and type "Fly Fishing in Arizona" it should lead you to the home page which is updated (either weekly or monthly) with the latest info on all parts of Arizona. It gives water levels, current conditions, fly patterns, tips for the week, and lots more…great resource.   Good luck and post a trip report. **   Mark Olson           # "In any audience, twenty percent  ** **   Las Vegas Academy    #  minds drift and sixty percent    ** **   Brooks Alumni        #  are actively engaged in sexual   ** **   Class of ‘88         #  fantasies."                      ** **   Member PIEA          #            —Gov. Pete Wilson    **

Response:

Question:

Though I know I’m swimming upstream on this one, does anybody out there rent drift boats without a guide/oarsman to go with them? I ask because I want to take one out for a day somewhere just to try it out (because I might buy one at some point in the future). I am an expert whitewater kayaker and canoeist, and have years of experience reading and running almost every kind of river and rapids imaginable.  So unless there is something completely bizarre about drift boats that only much experience in a drift boat can prepare you for, I think I could handle one with no problems. Scott W. Maryland P.S. – yes, I know I’ll never find a drift boat within hundreds of miles of Maryland!

Response:

Driftboat rentals are available on the Bighorn River through the Bighorn Angler

fly shop in Ft. Smith and other shops there. Denver, Colorado        ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/gwgodden

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Though I know I’m swimming upstream on this one, does anybody out there rent drift boats without a guide/oarsman to go with them? I ask because I want to take one out for a day somewhere just to try it out (because I might buy one at some point in the future). I am an expert whitewater kayaker and canoeist, and have years of experience reading and running almost every kind of river and rapids imaginable.  So unless there is something completely bizarre about drift boats that only much experience in a drift boat can prepare you for, I think I could handle one with no problems. Scott W. Maryland

Hi Scott, Many fly shops rent drift boats.  I believe Dave Kumlien at the Orvis Store hear in Bozeman rents them. He is often on this group, you could ask him. Regarding handling a drift boat compared to handling a canoe, etc.: The fact you can read the water is definitely in your favor. When operating a canoe you are usually stroking forward on the paddle as you move downstream – usually a little faster than the current. Most of the time in a drift boat you are pulling back on the oars to slow you trip down the river. On a day the wind blows up stream you may have to push on the oars to go on downstream, depending how strong the current may be.  I’m a guide here in Montana and on the Yellowstone for example the wind usually blows downstream during the morning and upstream during the afternoon. So in the morning you are pulling like crazy on the oars and in the afternoon you are pusing on them.  It sure keep you in good shape. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response:

My recommendation would be to go with a guide the first couple of times no matter what.   I remember a John Gierach magazine story on the Roaring Fork where he said it’s a good easy float from bonedale to glenwood. Well…it is a good float, but it can be class II-III at times and even the best oarsman hit rocks or bottom.  You have about 800 pounds, $2000 worth of equipment and 3 lives, in a damned river. It requires a respectful approach. If you get screwed in a Dory, dip an upstream edge or get broadside to something, you can die or be seriously hurt, real easy.  Buddy Mike had an accident like that two years ago and had to have fingers reattached.  He had let someone else row the boat, who seemed fairly competant.  Mike has been guiding since before dirt. The first time I rowed a driftboat, I got backwards right where the Crystal flows into the Fork.  The guide (behind me) climbed over my back and grabbed the oars and got us straightened out.  It never happened again, but the guide made me take some burly lines and channels just so he’d feel good about me having the boat on my own.   When we got to the end of the run, he insisted that we do it again…and we did. My confidence soared. That’s what you need, IMO, is a guide like that. TimW

Response:

My recommendation would be to go with a guide the first couple of times no matter what. I remember a John Gierach magazine story on the Roaring Fork where he said it’s a good easy float from bonedale to glenwood. Well…it is a good float, but it can be class II-III at times and even the best oarsman hit rocks or bottom.  You have about 800 pounds, $2000 worth of equipment and 3 lives, in a damned river. It requires a respectful approach. <other comments deleted

Excellent post Tim.  I think to many people saw A River Runs Through it and don’t give mother nature the respect she deserves.  Each river is different and if it’s at all dangerous should be navigated with a guide the first couple of times. BTW – You are fishing again aren’t you Tim? Vince

Response:

Rental outfits usually rent 12-14 foot rafts with frames which work for float fishing, but are better when used with 5 friends and a cooler full of beer, It’s almost impossible to rent a hard boat.

Response:

My recommendation would be to go with a guide the first couple of times no matter what.   If you get screwed in a Dory, dip an upstream edge or get broadside to something, you can die or be seriously hurt, real easy.  Buddy Mike had an accident like that two years ago and had to have fingers reattached.  He had let someone else row the boat, who seemed fairly competant.  Mike has been guiding since before dirt.

Hmmm…I’m still not sure I’m convinced.  I’m not _opposed_ to going with a guide, but as I mentioned in the original post of this thread, I’ve been paddling canoes & kayaks in (big) whitewater for years. (That’s up to class IV water.)   Dipping an upstream edge or pinning on a rock are hazards just as serious and real in a canoe as in a dory.   The only thing I can figure that would take getting used to in a dory is the larger size of the boat and slower response time than a canoe. But then some drift boat rowers may argue with that.  : ) Also, oars offer you far greater power than single canoe paddle! At any rate, I wouldn’t rent a drift boat to run a class III river to start with.  (I would feel completely comfortable in class II, though.) Scott W.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Though I know I’m swimming upstream on this one, does anybody out there rent drift boats without a guide/oarsman to go with them? I ask because I want to take one out for a day somewhere just to try it out (because I might buy one at some point in the future). I am an expert whitewater kayaker and canoeist, and have years of experience reading and running almost every kind of river and rapids imaginable.  So unless there is something completely bizarre about drift boats that only much experience in a drift boat can prepare you for, I think I could handle one with no problems. Scott W. Maryland Hi Scott, Many fly shops rent drift boats.  I believe Dave Kumlien at the Orvis Store hear in Bozeman rents them. He is often on this group, you could ask him. Regarding handling a drift boat compared to handling a canoe, etc.: The fact you can read the water is definitely in your favor. When operating a canoe you are usually stroking forward on the paddle as you move downstream – usually a little faster than the current. Most of the time in a drift boat you are pulling back on the oars to slow you trip down the river. On a day the wind blows up stream you may have to push on the oars to go on downstream, depending how strong the current may be.  I’m a guide here in Montana and on the Yellowstone for example the wind usually blows downstream during the morning and upstream during the afternoon. So in the morning you are pulling like crazy on the oars and in the afternoon you are pusing on them.  It sure keep you in good shape. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Though I know I’m swimming upstream on this one, does anybody out there rent drift boats without a guide/oarsman to go with them? I ask because I want to take one out for a day somewhere just to try it out (because I might buy one at some point in the future). I am an expert whitewater kayaker and canoeist, and have years of experience reading and running almost every kind of river and rapids imaginable.  So unless there is something completely bizarre about drift boats that only much experience in a drift boat can prepare you for, I think I could handle one with no problems. Scott W. Maryland Hi Scott, Many fly shops rent drift boats.  I believe Dave Kumlien at the Orvis Store hear in Bozeman rents them. He is often on this group, you could ask him. Regarding handling a drift boat compared to handling a canoe, etc.: The fact you can read the water is definitely in your favor. When operating a canoe you are usually stroking forward on the paddle as you move downstream – usually a little faster than the current. Most of the time in a drift boat you are pulling back on the oars to slow you trip down the river. On a day the wind blows up stream you may have to push on the oars to go on downstream, depending how strong the current may be.  I’m a guide here in Montana and on the Yellowstone for example the wind usually blows downstream during the morning and upstream during the afternoon. So in the morning you are pulling like crazy on the oars and in the afternoon you are pusing on them.  It sure keep you in good shape. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

The makers of Hyde drift boats have an excellent video on the basics of using a drift boat.  They are located in Idaho Falls Idaho.  I think viewing it would be worth your time before you tried one.

Response:

I am an expert whitewater kayaker and canoeist, and have years of experience reading and running almost every kind of river and rapids imaginable.  So unless there is something completely bizarre about drift boats that only much experience in a drift boat can prepare you for, I think I could handle one with no problems. Scott W. Maryland

There is a big difference between kayaking, canoeing, and driftboating. Kayak and canoe are paddled forward and you approach whitewater quite differently than in a drift boat. In a driftboat you row backwards into whitewater so the rapid approaches slower, and aim the ass end in the direction you want to go. A raft that you row handles similarly to a driftboat however, so you might wan’t to practice on a raft, which will bounce off if a mistake is made, before trying a drift boat. Maybe the rapids aren’t that big in your area in which case I should just shut up. You could also get a guide and then ask him if you could row for a while, I doubt he would object. Martin Allen

Response:

Though I know I’m swimming upstream on this one, does anybody out there rent drift boats without a guide/oarsman to go with them? I ask because I want to take one out for a day somewhere just to try it out (because I might buy one at some point in the future).

I rented a drift boat by myself a couple of days last July on the Missouri from the Missouri River Trout Shop in Craig.  They shuttled me up to the put-in below Holter Dam and I spent about 14 hours (including a midday break when the river was pretty dead) drifting down to the takeout in front of their place. Fortunately, they served dinner up until midnight or so so that I was able to eat after enjoying the late evening caddis hatch. I’m not an expert kayaker or oarsman, but I am reasonably competent.  I had no problems except one time when I anchored in fast water to fight what turned out to be a 20" rainbow, and then had to raise the anchor because he had most of my line downstream and wasn’t coming back.  I had to go to him.  Its not too hard maintaining a good course with an occasional push or pull of an oar, sometimes with just my knee.  It helped a lot that I had floated this same area a couple of times with a guide the year before, but the river was really quite different since the water flow in early July ‘95 (9,000 cfs or more) was a lot more than in July ‘94 (3,000 cfs). I had a large boat– set up for commercial guiding with an oarsman and two fishermen.  A smaller, lighter boat would have been better. Also, I don’t think I’d want to do it on a very narrow or very fast river.  Trying to fish by oneself from a drift boat on the Big Blackfoot would be pretty hard. Try it; you’ll like it. Phil Holt

Response:

There is a big difference between kayaking, canoeing, and driftboating. Kayak and canoe are paddled forward and you approach whitewater quite differently than in a drift boat.

   True…but _reading_ water is identical in both cases: knowing how to recognize chutes, tongues, shallow water, holes, pillows, eddy lines, boils, side currents, etc. In a driftboat you row backwards into whitewater so the rapid approaches slower, and aim the ass end in the direction you want to go.

Okay, now I’m a bit confused.  I’ve seen photos (I think maybe in the Hyde brochure) of drift boats running big drops and punching holes with the bow of the boat pointing downstream, which makes sense, since this is how the boat will ride most effectively over waves. And whether you’re in a drift boat or a raft, you don’t want to be going too slow if there are any big holes to punch!  : ) A raft that you row handles similarly to a driftboat however, so you might wan’t to practice on a raft, which will bounce off if a mistake is made, before trying a drift boat.

Good idea…I might look into this. Maybe the rapids aren’t that big in your area in which case I should just shut up.

Well, the Potomac River gorge at this very moment is running at over 40,000 c.f.s. — far bigger than many western rivers!  (It averages around 10,000 c.f.s., no small potatoes.) I don’t say this in an argumentative way, but just to offer a slight nudge to western folks who think all the big whitewater is out there! We’ve got piles of gargantuan whitewater within 3 hours of Washington, DC: the Cheat River, the Gauley, the New, the Potomac, the Youghiogheny, etc. etc.   : ) —Scott W.

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Just remember to always keep the stern downstream and take the waves as Head- on as possible. The most common reason for capsizing a hard boat comes when the boat gets sideways in the current and one side dips bellow the water (highsiding) , where the current can push the boat into a rock or even the bank, the obsticle becoming the fulcrum and the boat acting as a lever. Don’t underestimate the power of moving water, use the rocker of the driftboat to push you up and over the waves, always keeping a close eye on what’s ahead long before you get there, the last thing you want are suprises. Hard boats are very capable of taking heavy water, but they row a lot differently than rafts and are much less forgiving. Play it safe and have fun!  PRAM JAMMER

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Question:

Read your thread in the FF Newsgroup.  It looks like you’ve already gotten some good answers & I agree with them.  Glad to see you tying some new things to try out – that’s half the fun. If you want the best advice – bar none, you have to call the Bass Pond. Their number is 800-327-5014.  There is not a nicer, more knowledgeable group of warmwater people around.  Doug, the owner and his wife Lori, are both in my opinion a few of the hidden gems of this sport.  The Bass Pond is the mail order arm of Anglers All, their retail shop.  If you don’t find what you need in the catalog, ask & they’ll have it (or kill themselves getting it) in their retail shop. I’ve been dealing with them a couple of years now and they get ALL of my business.  Their prices are right on & the Bass Pond rods aren’t listed along with SAGE for nothin’.  Great deal there! No I don’t work for them – I’m just fanatical about warmwater FF & the folks at The Bass Pond.

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Anybody know what to use for bass in IOWA?  I am tying a wide assortment of flys right now to experiment with when the ice thaws but I’d like to be able to use some flys or nymphs that will work in early spring. Any help would be appreciated. Thanx…Jim Hauer

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Wooly Bugger, size 10 and larger

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Anybody know what to use for bass in IOWA?  I am tying a wide assortment of flys right now to experiment with when the ice thaws but I’d like to be able to use some flys or nymphs that will work in early spring. Any help would be appreciated. Thanx…Jim Hauer

Jim: If you mean EARLY spring, like shortly after the ice goes out, my experience is you’ll need to go with something wet (like the Wooly Buggers mentioned earlier, leech patterns, and Clouser minnows have all worked for me).  I will tell you, though, I do a lot of farm pond fishing just outside Des Moines, and FLYfishing for bass can tend to be pretty slow (at least for me) until the water starts to warm up a little. Now, once the water temp. does start getting into the high 40’s and low 50’s, things really heat up on flies.  When the bass are starting to be active in the shallows, hair bugs, poppers, and ESPECIALLY DEER HAIR MICE can be a riot.  I have caught lots of nice bass on a mouse – nothing fancy, just natural brown deer hair spun fairly thick in kind of a fat, torpedo shape on a long size 2 or 4 hook, and trim the belly a little and use a brown or black bunny hair strip for a tail.  When the bass are in the mood, this is heart attack fishing ’cause they’ll just inhale it. Later toward summer and through fall, hopper imitations work real well. At ANY time, if you want to speed up the action, try tying a nymph of some sort as a dropper attached to the hook bend of your topwater bass fly.  Odds are you may get lots of bluegills that way, and occasionally you’ll get a bass on the top and a bluegill on the dropper. Have fun, I’ll be after the bluegills this weekend.  The ice just went out on my favorite pond. Bob

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Anybody know what to use for bass in IOWA?  I am tying a wide assortment of flys right now to experiment with when the ice thaws but I’d like to be able to use some flys or nymphs that will work in early spring. Any help would be appreciated. Thanx…Jim Hauer

Jim,    You didn’t mention the type of bass : large or smallmouth.  Since Iowa has lots of farm pond I’ll assume the former. I have had the best luck on large floating spiders. Tie them with white foam then pantone the backside and some of the underbelly grey to simulate the large diving spiders living amongst the pond edges. The largemouths go bunkers over them initially, then wise up after having been hooked a few times.. Its a blast !                                                                                        Jody

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Question:

I’m after a good method to clean both floating and sinking flylines? Also does any one have a good method of removing the coil out of lines and making them subtle again (the lines are Cortlands and are only one season old, hence I don’t wish to replace them quite yet). Many thanks,  Steve.

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Steve, Fly lines can be cleaned with mild detergents and water (like dishwashing liquid) to remove most dirt and scum.  If the line is really dirty you can step up to a more concentrated cleaner like 409 or Fantastic.  Quality fly line coatings are PVC based and not adversely effected by common cleaning materials.  We even use lacquer thinner to clean the tar and dirt off of the "street" lines used for rod demos here at the shop without adverse effect, although I wouldn’t recommend it unless absolutely necessary. After cleaning, the line should be treated with a good line dressing to rejuvinate the surface lubricants and increase shootability.  The line dressing may also help increase the suppleness of your line and reduce coiling. Good Luck! Clay

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The best flyline cleaner we have found is distributed by Umpqua Feather Merchants and is called "Glide." Glide not only cleans the dirt and grime off of the line but it also leaves a slick coating behind which adds to the shootability of your line. They also sell plastic boxes with foam inserts that you pull your line thorugh to strip the dirt and coat the line. The whole setup will run you about ten bucks. Let me know if you’re having trouble finding it. As far as coils go, I imagine that you’re referring to your sinking line primarily. I have yet to find a full proof method for combatting this problem. My only reccomendation is to not use a leather leader straightener because you can’t tell how much heat/friction you’re generating and can easily melt the exterior coating on your lines. Good Luck and I’m anxious to hear if you receive any responses helping to cure this problem. Western Rivers Flyfisher {full service fly shop and outfitter} 867 East 900 South – SLC, UT 84105 (800)545-4312~~(801)521-6424~~fax(801)521-6329 Green River reports, Utah fishing conditions, and statewide guide info.

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The best flyline cleaner we have found is distributed by Umpqua Feather Merchants and is called "Glide." …. line. The whole setup will run you about ten bucks. Let me know if you’re having trouble finding it. Western Rivers Flyfisher {full service fly shop and outfitter}

And I think I know where… I was at the Delaware River Club last weekend and I asked Bob Wills about a cleaner.  He said, "wanna see what I use?" and he held up a Armoral sprayer and then he gave me a couple of the Cortland pads. That’s that kind of treatment that will keep me coming back to a flyshop. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems  Ithaca, NY

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[snipped the recommendation on line cleaner] As far as coils go, I imagine that you’re referring to your sinking line primarily. I have yet to find a full proof method for combatting this problem. My only reccomendation is to not use a leather leader straightener because you can’t tell how much heat/friction you’re generating and can easily melt the exterior coating on your lines. Good Luck and I’m anxious to hear if you receive any responses helping to cure this problem.

I’ve found that the only way to take the "coil" out of fly lines – especially in with saltwater lines in cold weather – is to "stretch" the line out. I just grab about 4-5 feet of line between both hands, build up some stretching force – holding it for a few seconds – then slide the line along to do the next 4-5 feet, until I’ve gotten about 60-70 feet of the line straightened out. Tedious to be sure, but it works, and AFAIK there’s no risk to damaging the line. It’s well worth the 5 or so minutes it takes to stretch out the "memory"… <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.    Alpha Server Engineering  < <         "Read this and nobody gets hurt ;^)"         < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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My vote for a great fly line cleaner goes to good ol’ Armor All.  The   stuff works great to clean and float your line. It also lubricates the   line nicely, so your line really screams through the guides,  making your casts easier and farther.  You can buy a large size bottle in the auto   section of K mart, Walmart, etc., for just a few dollars, and it will   last you for years.  I keep a small plastic squirt bottle filled and in   my vest, along with a small rag to apply it. Dale Owens

ArmorAll works fine short term, but long term causes premature line failure.  As I understand the process, AA accelerates the built in leaching process of the plasticizers in the line material.  Note that in the past many people used ArmorAll for lines AND waders (Seal Dris) with initial positive results from appearance point of view but detrimental results to longevity.                         Mike in PDX                "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                                            Tom McGuane

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Jon,         I had one reply that reccomended laying my line out in the sun for an hour or so and then giving it a gentle strech, simple and it worked a treat.  Thanks for the info re flyline cleaner, I ended up giving them a wash in a mild Lissapol (non-ionic detergent) and warm water solution, it seemed to remove the dirt and old silicone quite well, I then redressed the dry line with silicone and its as good as new.                                                  Steve Jackson                                                  Canberra, Australia

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