Question:

I like Outbacks, but at 6′3" (not overly tall) I found they have a serious lack of legroom.  I don’t see how you can say they have way more interior space than an average SUV, as my smallish 2-door Explorer is roomier.

If the Outback is too small for you, look at the Forester.  It has more room in all ways, but still isn’t a gas hog or road-warrier. — David L. Johnson    __o   | I don’t believe you, you’ve got the whole damn thing all wrong.  _`(,_  | He’s not the kind you have to wind-up on Sundays.  –Ian (_)/ (_) | Anderson   — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? Check out the Subaru Outback.   Way more interior space than many averaged sized SUV’s.  It’s also much easier to get bikes up on the roof.

Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot of scars to prove it – trying to get it out. A 4 runner towed me out – for a case of beer. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot of scars to prove it – trying to get it out. A 4 runner towed me out – for a case of beer.

20 PSI is generally too high. Try 15 or even 10 PSI next time and you can probably go anywhere. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

in rec.autos.4×4, Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot of scars to prove it – trying to get it out.

Down to 20psi? For sand try more like 5-8 psi…. I run 2-3 psi in the snow/sand. ~Brian — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot

I thought those fancy modern "All Wheel Drive" systems are supposed to power the wheels that DO get traction. I guess I’ll stick with my old assumption, that AWD is good for cars on less-than-perfect roads / weather, and not much else. Maybe different AWD systems from different manufacturers are better or worse. — Rick Onanian — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot I thought those fancy modern "All Wheel Drive" systems are supposed to power the wheels that DO get traction. I guess I’ll stick with my old assumption, that AWD is good for cars on less-than-perfect roads / weather, and not much else. Maybe different AWD systems from different manufacturers are better or worse.

  There is a small difference between the AWD system on   cars like the Porsche Turbo, Audi S6, Lamborghini,   Porsche Cayenne, and the considerably less expensive   ones found on lesser vehicles.

Response:

I’ve driven my Jeep Wrangler on the NC outer banks beaches.  It’s actually pretty tough conditions getting over the dune trails.  I saw a Subaru getting pulled out of the deep sand – he was buried up to his frame, and two really big 4wd trucks were having trouble getting him out.  Depending on recent weather, you might have to drive quite a distance through the softest, driest sand you can imagine, with really deep tracks that require good clearance.  On the beach I see mostly 4WD trucks and "normal/large" size SUVs, not the small ones.  You need to lower your tire pressure to 15-10 psi.  Once you clear the really soft sand you can drive easily.  There’s nothing like the outer banks beaches – sometimes you can drive till you can barley see another vehicle, and have a mile of beach all to yourself.  Other times it’s like a parking lot of 4×4s.  Not sure why.  You can also ride a mountain bike along the hard sand at the water’s edge, but the sand and salt are really bad for the bike… Brad — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

This past April I had my GMC Sarfari AWD van on the beaches in Hatteras… deflate the air pressure in your tires to 20psi and off you go!!! Everything fits in, or, or behind the van. — Marty S. Baltimore, MD  USA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

– rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

James, If I had the money to blow on a new car, I’d probably buy a Honda Element. This seems to meet all of your criteria, and is available in four wheel drive. We (wife and I) have considered buying one but have decided to wait a couple of years for a Hybrid gasoline/ electric vehicle. (Toyota Highlander, Ford Escape, and Saturn VUE hybrids will all available within the next couple of years, as will a Toyota Sienna Hybrid AWD (a real wallet-buster, no doubt.) Until then, we’re still cramming all of our stuff into our Saturn Wagon! The bikes go on a receiver hitch rack in the back. Dave Wissenbach – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

– rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

I guess for the beach you need wide tires and 4 wheel drive? I am sure that down around Corpus Christi they have some favorite vehicles? I think I have seen Chevy Suburbans in some articles? — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA www.kiene.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

– rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

Check out the Subaru Outback.   Way more interior space than many averaged sized SUV’s.  It’s also much easier to get bikes up on the roof.

I like Outbacks, but at 6′3" (not overly tall) I found they have a serious lack of legroom.  I don’t see how you can say they have way more interior space than an average SUV, as my smallish 2-door Explorer is roomier.  Maybe more cargo space than a CRV or RAV 4, but those are quite a bit smaller than average size and still have more legroom. Nice vehicles though if you can fit in them. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability?

Be wary of the Mazda Tribute/Ford Escape twins (they are mechanically identical, built by Ford).  They are good vehicles on paper, but have fairly poor reliability and resale value. The Jeep Liberty also has shown poor reliability and resale.  It is more capable off road than the Tribute/Escape but rides rougher, doesn’t drive as nice, is less roomy and gets poorer fuel economy. A well used Toyota 4-runner would be a better vehicle than either the Escape/Tribute or the Liberty are new.  But it is probably more than what you need. Take a long look at a Subaru Outback or Forester.  Also a Honda CRV and Toyota RAV4 would probably meet your needs.  The CRV is especially nice for kids as it has a minivan-like passthough to the back seats. The Hyundai Santa Fe is also a nice vehicle and comes with a great warranty. Do your research and be sure to look at total cost of ownership, including resale value and maintenence costs.  You will find Ford, GM, and Chrysler products really struggle there, while Honda is typically the best. Check out this article: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-08-15-carcosts_x.htm The "cute-utes" are not real off road vehicles only if you plan to rock hop with the Jeeps. They should do fine for what you described. If you had any heavy towing to do I would say differently.  It would be silly to get a more capable 4×4 you would rarely if ever need, and you may get annoyed with the "truckyness" that comes with the bigger 4×4s.  I sure do.  Then again, I really don’t know how serious your off-road plans are.  But I’m guessing not as serious as you think. When I was in high school, my dad had a 2-wheel drive 4-cylinder Ranger.  You may be surprised where I took that thing.  It made a fine hunting vehicle. I can tell you with absolute certainty to stay away from Ford Explorers.  I have one and it is the biggest piece of junk I have ever owned.  And it doesn’t even have 60,000 miles on it yet.  The initial price made it seem like a good value.  But it’s been anything but. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability?

Check out the Subaru Outback.   Way more interior space than many averaged sized SUV’s.  It’s also much easier to get bikes up on the roof. Barry — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

Is it necessary to post again? Well, I’ll reply to a couple other points… we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are

Only if you want one. good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability?

I’ve never seen a campground or park that requires a real 4×4 to get to the site. The worst I’ve seen is the Winterhawk bluegrass festival, which requires you to get up a big, steep hill; if it’s muddy, 2-wheel drive vehicles have a tough time. Some campgrounds do have rather rough paths, but all that’s required is a little extra ground clearance. we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use.

This is when you’ll use it most, on the road. You should probably make that a priority. road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way..

Compact SUVs, as well as larger ones built on a car platform, are not off-road vehicles, no matter what the manufacturer claims. They can handle grass, the path to the campground, etc; but tough stuff like deep in the woods or in deep sand, you need quite the ballsy off-road pickup (or SUV built on a pickup truck platform). Do you expect to drive on the beach? I’ve only ever seen vehicles allowed on the beach on TV shows like Baywatch; nowhere I’ve been, have I seen vehicles permitted to drive onto the sand, or anywhere out of the parking lot. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE?

The Ford Escape is a car-based SUV. It will do anything spectacular. It probably gives a pretty good ride on the road. how is the Jeep liberty?

Reportedly, the Liberty is okay. Never driven one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess

I don’t drive anything on the beach. For fishing/camping/biking, I drove a 1997 Pontiac Grand Am for 5 years; a 1987 Cadillac Sedan Deville for a couple years before that; and now I drive a full size pickup, specifically, a 2002 GMC Sierra 4×4, extended cab, etc. The Caddy and the Pontiac did fine for all sorts of off-road situations, although I did bend a wheel by going too fast in the Caddy on a very rough trail. People who think a low-slung, 2wd car can’t go off road, either have never done it, or are unskilled off-road drivers. They can’t do really gnarly off road stuff; but car-based SUVs can’t either, except that they can deal with a little bit slipperier conditions and a little bit higher clearance issues. ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget

My GMC Sierra, which does NOT have any sort of off-road package, and has lame-looking road tires, is the most comfortable vehicle I’ve ever driven. The tires, which look lame, provide ample grip in all sorts of snow, mud, etc. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute?

I can’t imagine why not. can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james

– Rick Onanian — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

You might want to look at the Suzuki XL-7 (4 wheel drive version).  You could get the third row seat version and still stay close to the upper limit of your price range.  Even an ‘02 model would be good, and most (those sold after August last year) have a transferable 7 year 100,000 mile powertrain warranty.  It might be worth looking at. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

Question:

I was probably coming into the conversation late – what’s new?! I usually use a duncan loop to tie tippet to fly. I usually start with a fairly loose knot in the hope that the fly will move in a more natural manner (and that that will make a difference), but it usually tightens up after a few casts. If I can ever get to the point that I can tell that my choice of fly-to-tippet connection makes a difference I’ll stop being a banker and become a guide. Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – bob, i think they’re talking about a loop, instead of clinch, uni, or other knot, connection of tippet to fly.  anyway, on that assumption, several experienced and knowledgeable folks in the nc mountains suggest the loop allows wets, nymphs, and streamers to move about in the water better and allow more realistic presentation.  i use the surgeon’s loop at times.  i haven’t been able to tell if there’s much difference in the fish’s appreciation of my effort though… jeff //snip// Bill, do you have any sense of whether a loop makes a difference ?  I’ve gone back and forth with loop vs non-loop connections to clousers (read: am I too tired/ cold/etc to bother) and haven’t noticed a difference. I’m going through the same debate. Nail knots are a pain in the ass to tie. I’ve been upset enough with loop connectors (they get jammed in the guides) that I swear never to use them again, but then when it’s cold and I want to get a new leader on quickly I capitulate. Have never tried leader links, but Wolfgang was using one on our Hazel trip and it seemed to be a good compact connection. — http://rwpatton.home.netcom.com/

Response:

 Try the "non-slip loop", which is the Rapala loop without the final  step.  Both are supposed to be stronger than the Duncan.

Thanks. The main need I have for strength is for pulling flies out of brush. Bob Wondering if it’s better to break the line at the tippet-to-fly connection or at the tippet-to-leader . . .

Response:

I use a no-slip loop knot whenever I want a loop in tippet. It’s easy to tie and very strong.

Like Bill says below I’ve used it as a loop knot on a fly works great and very strong. Good idea to use as a tippet connector I’ll have to try.

Response:

I’ll stop being a banker and become a guide. Bob

    liar, liar, pants on fire.  we all know you’re an accountant! yfitons wayno

Response:

Wayne Knight suggested that Leader Loops are for those people who’s fingers are too arthritic or disabled to tie a knot, otherwise one should use a damn bloodknot for a leader connection. I have been having problems tying small flies on to tippet (especially dry flies), so I now pre-snell/tie them, at my tying table with plenty of light and magnification, to about 16" – 18" of tippet and store them in a thing called a "Pip’s Box" made by Mack’s Lure of Leavenworth, Washington State US (You can hold better than a dozen flies or so with this thing without tangling the tippet, and it comes in colors with a see thru lid.  I organize my flies by the color of the box.)  My eyesight, especially at twilight or later, is not so good even with a flashlight.  I just can’t seem to get the tippet thru then I have a hell of a time tying the knot IF I get it threaded.  I am using Fluorocarbon tippet, these days, and I feel that a blood knot is not adequate for this material.  I then use a Tie-Fast Knot Tying tippet to the leader with their double splicing knot or double nail knot as some have described it, which I believe is considerably stronger than the blood knot, or at least my blood knots anyway…be curious to see if anyone else has the same experience. Just my two cents worth, anyway Padishar Creel

Response:

  we all know you’re an accountant! Always prospecting for business, huh? Bob

Response:

I think I will, Wayne. I made a leader, per Lefty Kreh’s directions, for casting big bugs. However, I used uni to uni knots. I think I will make another one with blood knots and attach it. I mastered nail knots a long time ago. Now, I am trying to expand my knot repertoire. I still maintain that the perfection loop is a myth… Bug, et al. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – cut the fly line, tie the nail and then tie the blood knot, you’ll feel much better

Response:

Hi All, Connecting the smaller tippet material to the leader we sometimes use a surgeons loop because it is stronger than a perfection loop.

it is but not by much.(perhaps 3 to 5%). Perfections should give a strength of 90 to 95% of the line vs 95% plus for a surgeon. The surgeons is a bit easier to tie though. An attribute of the perfection is that it is perfectly straight while a surgeon loop may put a bit of an angle in the line. The strongest loop you can tie is the bimini or some of the variants of this loop. It’s complicated and not usually used for a tippet loop in most applications

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, Connecting the smaller tippet material to the leader we sometimes use a surgeons loop because it is stronger than a perfection loop. it is but not by much.(perhaps 3 to 5%). Perfections should give a strength of 90 to 95% of the line vs 95% plus for a surgeon. The surgeons is a bit easier to tie though. An attribute of the perfection is that it is perfectly straight while a surgeon loop may put a bit of an angle in the line.

I use a no-slip loop knot whenever I want a loop in tippet. It’s easy to tie and very strong.

Response:

Ralph, — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, Connecting the smaller tippet material to the leader we sometimes use a surgeons loop because it is stronger than a perfection loop. it is but not by much.(perhaps 3 to 5%). Perfections should give a strength of 90 to 95% of the line vs 95% plus for a surgeon. The surgeons is a bit easier to tie though. An attribute of the perfection is that it is perfectly straight while a surgeon loop may put a bit of an angle in the line. The strongest loop you can tie is the bimini or some of the variants of this loop. It’s complicated and not usually used for a tippet loop in most applications

Response:

Steve, Lefty really promoted the non-slip loop knot and now I see most of all using it with flies we want to move freely like a Clouser minnow. Thanks. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, Connecting the smaller tippet material to the leader we sometimes use a surgeons loop because it is stronger than a perfection loop. it is but not by much.(perhaps 3 to 5%). Perfections should give a strength of 90 to 95% of the line vs 95% plus for a surgeon. The surgeons is a bit easier to tie though. An attribute of the perfection is that it is perfectly straight while a surgeon loop may put a bit of an angle in the line. I use a no-slip loop knot whenever I want a loop in tippet. It’s easy to tie and very strong.

Response:

Nice contribution. Very helpful. I hope you continue to foster goodwill in this group and for the sport of fly fishing. Bugged – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – cut the fly line, tie the nail and then tie the blood knot, you’ll feel much better Better strength-test it on your dick first, Collier.

Response:

//snip//  Bill, do you have any sense of whether a loop makes a  difference ?  I’ve gone back and forth with loop vs  non-loop connections to clousers (read: am I too tired/  cold/etc to bother) and haven’t noticed a difference.

I’m going through the same debate. Nail knots are a pain in the ass to tie. I’ve been upset enough with loop connectors (they get jammed in the guides) that I swear never to use them again, but then when it’s cold and I want to get a new leader on quickly I capitulate. Have never tried leader links, but Wolfgang was using one on our Hazel trip and it seemed to be a good compact connection. — http://rwpatton.home.netcom.com/

Response:

bob, i think they’re talking about a loop, instead of clinch, uni, or other knot, connection of tippet to fly.  anyway, on that assumption, several experienced and knowledgeable folks in the nc mountains suggest the loop allows wets, nymphs, and streamers to move about in the water better and allow more realistic presentation.  i use the surgeon’s loop at times.  i haven’t been able to tell if there’s much difference in the fish’s appreciation of my effort though… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – //snip// Bill, do you have any sense of whether a loop makes a difference ?  I’ve gone back and forth with loop vs non-loop connections to clousers (read: am I too tired/ cold/etc to bother) and haven’t noticed a difference. I’m going through the same debate. Nail knots are a pain in the ass to tie. I’ve been upset enough with loop connectors (they get jammed in the guides) that I swear never to use them again, but then when it’s cold and I want to get a new leader on quickly I capitulate. Have never tried leader links, but Wolfgang was using one on our Hazel trip and it seemed to be a good compact connection. — http://rwpatton.home.netcom.com/

Response:

cut the fly line, tie the nail and then tie the blood knot, you’ll feel much better

Better strength-test it on your dick first, Collier.

Response:

I’ve found its hard to beat a perfection loop for most leader connections. The perfection (if tied properly) stands straight out from the standing line with no offset, and the knot strength is near 100%. I use it on all leader butts (with a whipped loop on the fly line), & on all tippet connections down to 4x.  5x & smaller I use a doubled surgeons knot.  I think its easier to tie than a surgeons loop, and, well….. it looks cool! B.J.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I personally think the perfection loop is something of a myth or some type of black magic. For leader loops, is it any better than a surgeon’s loop? Bug

Response:

Hi All, In larger diameter mono like attaching leader to a butt section we use perfection loops because they are a smaller, cleaner knot and strength is not an issue. Connecting the smaller tippet material to the leader we sometimes use a surgeons loop because it is stronger than a perfection loop. In larger diameter mono like attaching a leader to a butt section we also use a blood knot because it is a smaller, cleaner knot. Connecting the smaller tippet material to the leader we also use a triple surgeons knot because it is stronger. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I personally think the perfection loop is something of a myth or some type of black magic. For leader loops, is it any better than a surgeon’s loop? Bug

Response:

Can someone direct me to a site that will show how to tie the perfection loop and the surgeon’s loop?? Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I personally think the perfection loop is something of a myth or some type of black magic. For leader loops, is it any better than a surgeon’s loop? Bug

Response:

Can someone direct me to a site that will show how to tie the perfection loop and the surgeon’s loop?? Tony

Hi Tony, Go here for any knot you’re apt to use: http://www.flyanglersonline.com/begin/knots/ Frank Sr.

Response:

I personally think the perfection loop is something of a myth or some type of black magic. For leader loops, is it any better than a surgeon’s loop? Bug

Response:

I personally think the perfection loop is something of a myth or some type of black magic. For leader loops, is it any better than a surgeon’s loop?

Leader Loops are for those people who’s fingers are too arthritic or disabled to tie a knot, otherwise one should use a damn bloodknot for a leader connection.

Response:

Leader Loops are for those people who’s fingers are too arthritic or disabled to tie a knot, otherwise one should use a damn bloodknot for a leader connection.

Actually, leader loops are used between the flyline and the butt section, where you aren’t likely to tie a blood knot. You could use a nail knot, a "nailless" nail knot, a needle knot, or a Zap-a-Gap connection, but not a blood knot, unless you’re either crazy or desperate or stupid. I’ve even heard of one person using two clinch knots, incredibly enough, but I don’t recommend it. I’d rather use a blood knot. I usually tie a new leader onto the butt section (attached to the flyline with a leader link) with a blood knot. After quite a few leader changes I eventually need a new leader link and butt section, but that takes quite awhile — maybe once a year on my workhorse rig.

Response:

I speaking only from the leader end, agree blood knot to attach a butt section to a leader.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Leader Loops are for those people who’s fingers are too arthritic or disabled to tie a knot, otherwise one should use a damn bloodknot for a leader connection. Actually, leader loops are used between the flyline and the butt section, where you aren’t likely to tie a blood knot. You could use a nail knot, a "nailless" nail knot, a needle knot, or a Zap-a-Gap connection, but not a blood knot, unless you’re either crazy or desperate or stupid. I’ve even heard of one person using two clinch knots, incredibly enough, but I don’t recommend it. I’d rather use a blood knot. I usually tie a new leader onto the butt section (attached to the flyline with a leader link) with a blood knot. After quite a few leader changes I eventually need a new leader link and butt section, but that takes quite awhile — maybe once a year on my workhorse rig.

Response:

You’re talking about a blood knot to connect the leader to the fly line?? I wanted to use a nail knot to connect the leader, but the line came with a loop, and I justed couldn’t get myself to cut the flyline. Anyway, I’m not arthritic or disabled, but I am confused and thick-headed. Are you saying a loop to loop leader to flyline is bad? Sorry. Sometimes I am profoundly obtuse Bug, et al. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I personally think the perfection loop is something of a myth or some type of black magic. For leader loops, is it any better than a surgeon’s loop? Leader Loops are for those people who’s fingers are too arthritic or disabled to tie a knot, otherwise one should use a damn bloodknot for a leader connection.

Response:

cut the fly line, tie the nail and then tie the blood knot, you’ll feel much better

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re talking about a blood knot to connect the leader to the fly line?? I wanted to use a nail knot to connect the leader, but the line came with a loop, and I justed couldn’t get myself to cut the flyline. Anyway, I’m not arthritic or disabled, but I am confused and thick-headed. Are you saying a loop to loop leader to flyline is bad? Sorry. Sometimes I am profoundly obtuse Bug, et al. I personally think the perfection loop is something of a myth or some type of black magic. For leader loops, is it any better than a surgeon’s loop? Leader Loops are for those people who’s fingers are too arthritic or disabled to tie a knot, otherwise one should use a damn bloodknot for a leader connection.

Response:

Question:

Yeah, count me in you shadster! Opie needs all the hats he can get, Chris, because he doesn’t have any hair. Sign him up for a half dozen. If you’re doing t-shirts sign him up for another half dozen XXL to cover his gut.

Damn, that hurt to the scalp.  Can’t get to the bone through all these layers o’ fat! Opie  –Planning for the Past–

Response:

Hi All, Maybe some would want a hat even if they can’t make it? — Bill Kiene

Ain’t that what this is all about?  I hope I’m not expected to show-up to receive my hat.  Hat just don’t seem worth the price of air-fare. Opie  –Planning for the Past–

Response:

I am doing some preliminary investigation into embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.  So far it looks like we have about 10 – 12? Roffians signed up, but I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so).

PC, I’ll need three. Danl Still can’t believe I’m contemplating flying somewhere for the express purpose of shadding!!!! AAAAArrrrrrrggghhhh…..

Response:

Still can’t believe I’m contemplating flying somewhere for the express purpose of shadding!!!! AAAAArrrrrrrggghhhh…..

So you’re actually contemplating coming to the shad fishout, Dan’l? Cool! BTW, these are American Shad, not the puny, slimey Hickory Shad you remember from your misspent youth. There are also striped bass in the American River. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Yeah, count me in you shadster!

Opie needs all the hats he can get, Chris, because he doesn’t have any hair. Sign him up for a half dozen. If you’re doing t-shirts sign him up for another half dozen XXL to cover his gut. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I am doing some preliminary investigation into embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.  So far it looks like we have about 10 – 12? Roffians signed up, but I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so).

Yo! Sign me up for a hat, please. /daytripper

Response:

embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.

Count me in for one of the caps. Big Dale

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am doing some preliminary investigation into embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.  So far it looks like we have about 10 – 12? Roffians signed up, but I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so). The more I get done, the cheaper each one becomes.  Let me know if you will want one and I will run a total here at my homestead.  Legal Disclaimer — remember this is for an estimate you will not be contractually held to receiving an Official Clave Fishing Hat if you ask for one at this point.  I just need rough numbers. —- Padishar Creel "Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft…and the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor." –  Wernher von Braun

As requested earlier, I’d like one! –Walt

Response:

I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so).

Yeah, I need another fishing hat like Custer needed another Indian (oops, Native American).   But sure, put me down for one. Joe F.

Response:

As requested earlier, I’d like one!

Me too. — Charlie…

Response:

Hi All, Maybe some would want a hat even if they can’t make it? — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am doing some preliminary investigation into embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.  So far it looks like we have about 10 – 12? Roffians signed up, but I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so). The more I get done, the cheaper each one becomes.  Let me know if you will want one and I will run a total here at my homestead.  Legal Disclaimer — remember this is for an estimate you will not be contractually held to receiving an Official Clave Fishing Hat if you ask for one at this point. I just need rough numbers. —- Padishar Creel "Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft…and the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor." –  Wernher von Braun

Response:

As requested earlier, I’d like one! Me too.

Ditto. Wolfgang

Response:

Me too… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, Maybe some would want a hat even if they can’t make it? — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com I am doing some preliminary investigation into embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.  So far it looks like we have about 10 – 12? Roffians signed up, but I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so). The more I get done, the cheaper each one becomes.  Let me know if you will want one and I will run a total here at my homestead.  Legal Disclaimer — remember this is for an estimate you will not be contractually held to receiving an Official Clave Fishing Hat if you ask for one at this point. I just need rough numbers. —- Padishar Creel "Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft…and the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor." –  Wernher von Braun

Response:

I am doing some preliminary investigation into embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.  So far it looks like we have about 10 – 12? Roffians signed up, but I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so). The more I get done, the cheaper each one becomes.  Let me know if you will want one and I will run a total here at my homestead.  Legal Disclaimer — remember this is for an estimate you will not be contractually held to receiving an Official Clave Fishing Hat if you ask for one at this point.  I just need rough numbers. —- Padishar Creel "Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft…and the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor." –  Wernher von Braun

Response:

Yeah, count me in you shadster! Opie  –Planning for the Past–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am doing some preliminary investigation into embroidering some high quality fishing hats to memorialize the Sacramento Shad Fish-Out Clave. What I need for now is the approximate amount of hats required for this Clave.  So far it looks like we have about 10 – 12? Roffians signed up, but I know that some of the non-participants will want a hat as a souvenir (or at least I think so). The more I get done, the cheaper each one becomes.  Let me know if you will want one and I will run a total here at my homestead.  Legal Disclaimer — remember this is for an estimate you will not be contractually held to receiving an Official Clave Fishing Hat if you ask for one at this point. I just need rough numbers. —- Padishar Creel "Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft…and the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor." –  Wernher von Braun

Response:

Question:

Thanks Mike….. -walt At eventide, slanting rays of sunlight, burnish rippling water red and gold,

8<

Response:

Thank you all too.  I was determined not to come back, but life is really too short for buggering about, and I discovered that I miss you all a great deal, it is nice to have friends, even those one may never see. There is really nowhere else where one might obtain the inspiration required for doggerel than this place anyway !!! I may not post quite as often as I once did, but I will be lurking a lot. Tight lines! Mike Connor

The best part is: we knew you were coming so we cleaned up the place! /daytripper (Welcome home, Mike.)

Response:

Mike, Good to see you, or at least your powerful words, again. You were always with us, but I like this better. Danl PS If you’ve been lurking, you know that I’m learning to tie, ahem, dress flies. That web site of yours would sure be handy about now. (hint, hint) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you all too.  I was determined not to come back, but life is really too short for buggering about, and I discovered that I miss you all a great deal, it is nice to have friends, even those one may never see. There is really nowhere else where one might obtain the inspiration required for doggerel than this place anyway !!! I may not post quite as often as I once did, but I will be lurking a lot. Tight lines! Mike Connor

Response:

At eventide, slanting rays of sunlight, burnish rippling water red and gold, trout, at supper then, become less wary and some become quite bold. Angler, having worked quite hard all day, for really very poor returns, redoubles then his efforts, as the waning day to twilight turns. A spinner fall engages trout and angler, trout with abandon, angler tense, another pattern is tied on, and cast with care towards a fishes residence, landing perfectly, the fly floats down, drag free for several nervous feet, then vanishes without a sound, surprise for angler is complete. Awakening at last, from almost too intense and perfect concentration, angler sets the hook, and is rewarded with a surge of wild elation, as trout, far more surprised than angler, tries to be rid of stinging steel, surges strongly down the river, regretting now perhaps the meal. Holding fast, anticipating twists and turns, wild lunges, and even desperate leaps, angler plies his rod with skill, and on the fish, a steady but relentless pressure keeps. Another leap, the rod is bowed, and fish seems weary now, not far from beaten, perhaps he fights so desperately, because he fears he will be killed and eaten? At last the battle turns, and angler triumphantly deploys his landing net, taking care that one last desperate lunge, does not gain fish his freedom yet. silver beauty, pure enchantment, colours highlit by the final rays of summer sun, content, though not a little sad at fishes end, angler packs, another day is done. Homeward then, filled with peace, and dwelling on the days reflections, already planning other trips, and mentally designing deadly fly confections, once more the day has passed, but angling is a thing that never really ends, a pleasure for a man alone, and still a greater one to share with friends. Of such things and more, days filled with pure delight and beauty, are angling dreams, of happy hours spent wandering, with rod and line, by secret and enchanted streams, by mighty rivers, roaring surf, still and hidden pools and lakes, by thunderous waterfall, wherever fish are found, our angler there will venture, he can not resist the call. To pit his wits against the wary fish, see his fill of natures wondrous treasures, what man could be richer? or more blessed?, could there be greater pleasures? to sit in peace beside the rippling gurgling water on a summer day, lost in reverie, far from toil and bustle, and the stressful world, further than this, no man may flee. For many centuries now, ten countless times a thousand men have trod this way, thought much the same perhaps, while thus engaged in sport, as we are now today, cultures change, ideas alter, and much of humankind are followers of fashion, anglers thoughts though stay the same, because they follow this abiding and absorbing passion? How many men I wonder, have been so hopelessly and happily obsessed? immaterial of the changing times, the flies and tools which constantly progressed, odd indeed, that men should take such pleasure from a harmless fishes sad demise, consider though how poor our lives would be, if  fishes ceased from taking flies! TL MC

Response:

Thanks Mike and hopefully welcome back.

Response:

Thanks, Mike. Tom At eventide, slanting rays of sunlight, burnish rippling water red…….

Response:

At eventide, slanting rays of sunlight, burnish rippling water red and gold, trout, at supper then, become less wary and some become quite bold. Angler, having worked quite hard all day, for really very poor returns, redoubles then his efforts, as the waning day to twilight turns.

Hooray.   Let me be the first (okay, second) to say welcome back. Joe F.

Response:

Truly wonderful and long missed prose snipped. Welcome back Mike.  The wandering bard has again alighted in our village.  Lets hope his stay is as dear to him as his wisdom is to us.       Frank Reid Before you buy.

Response:

Thanks Mike, and welcome back! George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

Thank you all too.  I was determined not to come back, but life is really too short for buggering about, and I discovered that I miss you all a great deal, it is nice to have friends, even those one may never see. There is really nowhere else where one might obtain the inspiration required for doggerel than this place anyway !!!  I may not post quite as often as I once did, but I will be lurking a lot. Tight lines! Mike Connor

Response:

Mike, When some leave the group we’re happy, When you left we all felt real crappy, But now you’re back, The election was whack, and… ahh, crap, my limericks suck. welcome back.  we missed you. bruce h Before you buy.

Response:

Welcome back to ROFF. Paul

Response:

<snipped Welcome back Mike.  Your contributions are most welcomed and enjoyed. bc. — Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -Benjamin Franklin

Response:

Oh dear, and after wading through severaI thousand posts, I thought somebody had come up with a new method of learning to cast, which was apparently developed in Florida. It was always difficult timing the punch when casting TL MC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <with his usual style and elegance Welcome back, Mike, and not a moment too soon. This joint could use a touch of class. You may not believe this, but while you were gone, many of our distinguished members have engaged in endless political discussions.  So much so, that complaints have been registered as to the lack of flyfishing content in the newsgroup. Kevin, sleeping easier tonight.

Response:

http://www.mikeconnor.de Hope you enjoy it. TL MC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike, Good to see you, or at least your powerful words, again. You were always with us, but I like this better. Danl PS If you’ve been lurking, you know that I’m learning to tie, ahem, dress flies. That web site of yours would sure be handy about now. (hint, hint)

Response:

<with his usual style and elegance Welcome back, Mike, and not a moment too soon. This joint could use a touch of class. You may not believe this, but while you were gone, many of our distinguished members have engaged in endless political discussions.  So much so, that complaints have been registered as to the lack of flyfishing content in the newsgroup. Kevin, sleeping easier tonight.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At eventide, slanting rays of sunlight, burnish rippling water red and gold, trout, at supper then, become less wary and some become quite bold. Angler, having worked quite hard all day, for really very poor returns, redoubles then his efforts, as the waning day to twilight turns. A spinner fall engages trout and angler, trout with abandon, angler tense, another pattern is tied on, and cast with care towards a fishes residence, landing perfectly, the fly floats down, drag free for several nervous feet, then vanishes without a sound, surprise for angler is complete. Awakening at last, from almost too intense and perfect concentration, angler sets the hook, and is rewarded with a surge of wild elation, as trout, far more surprised than angler, tries to be rid of stinging steel, surges strongly down the river, regretting now perhaps the meal. Holding fast, anticipating twists and turns, wild lunges, and even desperate leaps, angler plies his rod with skill, and on the fish, a steady but relentless pressure keeps. Another leap, the rod is bowed, and fish seems weary now, not far from beaten, perhaps he fights so desperately, because he fears he will be killed and eaten? At last the battle turns, and angler triumphantly deploys his landing net, taking care that one last desperate lunge, does not gain fish his freedom yet. silver beauty, pure enchantment, colours highlit by the final rays of summer sun, content, though not a little sad at fishes end, angler packs, another day is done. Homeward then, filled with peace, and dwelling on the days reflections, already planning other trips, and mentally designing deadly fly confections, once more the day has passed, but angling is a thing that never really ends, a pleasure for a man alone, and still a greater one to share with friends. Of such things and more, days filled with pure delight and beauty, are angling dreams, of happy hours spent wandering, with rod and line, by secret and enchanted streams, by mighty rivers, roaring surf, still and hidden pools and lakes, by thunderous waterfall, wherever fish are found, our angler there will venture, he can not resist the call. To pit his wits against the wary fish, see his fill of natures wondrous treasures, what man could be richer? or more blessed?, could there be greater pleasures? to sit in peace beside the rippling gurgling water on a summer day, lost in reverie, far from toil and bustle, and the stressful world, further than this, no man may flee. For many centuries now, ten countless times a thousand men have trod this way, thought much the same perhaps, while thus engaged in sport, as we are now today, cultures change, ideas alter, and much of humankind are followers of fashion, anglers thoughts though stay the same, because they follow this abiding and absorbing passion? How many men I wonder, have been so hopelessly and happily obsessed? immaterial of the changing times, the flies and tools which constantly progressed, odd indeed, that men should take such pleasure from a harmless fishes sad demise, consider though how poor our lives would be, if  fishes ceased from taking flies! TL MC

Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

OK, I’m mostly a catch and release fisherman except for panfish, but I saw an article in an old flyfishing magazine that asked this question… What if you are fishing in a Gold Medal, C & R only trout stream and you catch a trout, bring it in, and it dies on you right in your hands? The author debates throwing it into the bushes or just letting it float down the river, but since it’s Gold Medal Water there is usually a crowd or wardens around and he’d get busted. He suggested making believe he was "reviving" the fish and digging a hole in the mud and putting some rocks on top of it.  He also made an observation that there seems to be a lot more rockpiles on Catch & Release waters than there used to be. I didn’t get to see the next issue to find out what the readers responses were, but it makes you think…. Dan Dow here http://www.angelfire.com/mac/dandow/kingfisher/homepage is my homepage… PS—found in Fly Rod & Reel Nov/Dec 1997

Response:

OK, I’m mostly a catch and release fisherman except for panfish, but I saw an article in an old flyfishing magazine that asked this question…

Well, Dan the Man, this topic has been discussed ad nauseum here in the past, and I have no doubt that a Deja search of past ROFF posts for "C&R" will more than answer your question. My short opinion?   If the law says C&R, you’d better R.   There are, of course, more layers to be discussed, like why didn’t you bring it in fast enough to revive it?   Is it a foolish waste of a good fish to not eat it?   Blah, blah, blah, etc.   We been there, we done that. HTH, Joe F.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, I’m mostly a catch and release fisherman except for panfish, but I saw an article in an old flyfishing magazine that asked this question… What if you are fishing in a Gold Medal, C & R only trout stream and you catch a trout, bring it in, and it dies on you right in your hands? The author debates throwing it into the bushes or just letting it float down the river, but since it’s Gold Medal Water there is usually a crowd or wardens around and he’d get busted. He suggested making believe he was "reviving" the fish and digging a hole in the mud and putting some rocks on top of it.  He also made an observation that there seems to be a lot more rockpiles on Catch & Release waters than there used to be. I didn’t get to see the next issue to find out what the readers responses were, but it makes you think…. Dan Dow here http://www.angelfire.com/mac/dandow/kingfisher/homepage is my homepage… PS—found in Fly Rod & Reel Nov/Dec 1997

_____  Japanese always carry a razor sharp knife.  The rock piles are empty bottles of Soy Sauce. — Mr.Gink "the saga continues"   http://www.gink.com/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, I’m mostly a catch and release fisherman except for panfish, but I saw an article in an old flyfishing magazine that asked this question… Well, Dan the Man, this topic has been discussed ad nauseum here in the past, and I have no doubt that a Deja search of past ROFF posts for "C&R" will more than answer your question. My short opinion?   If the law says C&R, you’d better R.   There are, of course, more layers to be discussed, like why didn’t you bring it in fast enough to revive it?   Is it a foolish waste of a good fish to not eat it?   Blah, blah, blah, etc.   We been there, we done that. HTH, Joe F.

OTOH, you could ask the question in the political thread which candidate should be C&R’d and which one should be C&K’d.  That way all the bullshit could be contained in one thread.  Neat, eh? Peter = always striving to be helpful

Response:

Question:

I’m not always sour. Just spewing up some vomit. It will pass.

I know you are not souring, and it is good to spew.  I can’t believe what you have been through. (((((Hugs)))))) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Just a big ol’ kidney stone, yeah, you’ll be rid of it. OK. I had a big dry. Geez! Thought I was done with that stuff. I spent a lot of energy being *close* to my kids – moved right within short mortar range of where their mom is living. With all that, I can not even be sure I am doing the right thing – the "confict is bad" crowd would say that since the kids’ mom and I hate each other, I should pack up my troubles, move a thousand miles away and just send a check every week. Maybe they are right, but it is not the path I have chosen, and the path I have chosen is hard, sucks and is exhausting. And I am not even sure if it is the right thing. I understand. At the time of the moving decision, I thought that the only way she could come down from her insanity was to distance myself. I under-estimated insanity. You make your choices, live with them, and live with yourself. What else are you going to do? Just know what your choices are. Make those choices informed, and get on with your life. Else you’ll end up a tired old, shrivelled up cynical fart like me. pffffoooooot!!!! Thoughts with you Roy. Give your better half a big hug, and fall asleep in each others’ arms tonight. Have you ever noticed that two people in bed only need 3 arms? Indeed, one arm is always in the way.

Here are two more arms to crowd the situation. There is only so much you can do, and the kids’ mom is the kids’ mom. She is their problem, unfortunately. They’ll survive. I can’t protect them from the world. Much as I want to. The younger one will be taught to hate me. See responses eslewhere in this thread as to why. Peace, brother. Best – Fido (Soy un perro, pero ella es una hembra!) Did you ever try "tacos de macho"?

I

Response:

 The younger one will, as usual, not want to talk to me. Been there, done that. I just kept calling at the right time, and they will talk if they want to. Later my oldest daughter would surprise me by calling on her own. You are there with them, Roy, believe it.

Yep. As far as Doc’s statements, not all are bitches, The sterile ones can be trusted, if they have a note from their doc. Otherwise, trust your own doc to take care of you. Very cynical. Ouchies. But realistic, I suppose.

Getting such things in writing strikes me as properly responsible. I am sad that you have one in your life. Actually, I have another in my life who is quite wonderful.  Whatcha kevtchin’ about, then?  Hey, a lot of folks don’t even have *that*.

Yeah, but it don’t fix the hole in the heart, does it ? Don’t go sour, have faith. I’m not always sour. Just spewing up some vomit. It will pass. Just a big ol’ kidney stone, yeah, you’ll be rid of it.

Indeed. I spent a lot of energy being *close* to my kids – moved right within short mortar range of where their mom is living. With all that, I can not even be sure I am doing the right thing – the "confict is bad" crowd would say that since the kids’ mom and I hate each other, I should pack up my troubles, move a thousand miles away and just send a check every week. Maybe they are right, but it is not the path I have chosen, and the path I have chosen is hard, sucks and is exhausting. And I am not even sure if it is the right thing.

Well, I am. It is. You are the *father* of the kids. That is important, no matter what the granola crowd bleats. It’s tough. But, you are there for your kids, and they do see that. They will understand what that means. You make your choices, live with them, and live with yourself. What else are you going to do? Just know what your choices are. Make those choices informed, and get on with your life. Else you’ll end up a tired old, shrivelled up cynical fart like me.

<g Thoughts with you Roy. Give your better half a big hug, and fall asleep in each others’ arms tonight. There is only so much you can do, and the kids’ mom is the kids’ mom. She is their problem, unfortunately.

Truth. Peace, brother. Best – Fido (Soy un perro, pero ella es una hembra!) Roy

Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

Response:

Let’s see. I’m sure I left something out. …. Starting Spring Break, the ex starting coaching the girl to say that I am poking her ass while wiping her bottom. I pointed out that I do not handle potty. So, by summer she wants to know why my gf is poking the daughter’s ass. Except that the girl wipes herself.

Response:

so, yeah, Dr Web can rant and rave all he friggin wants. I, for one, will not criticize him. Sometimes there is just more than a grain of truth in the rantings of the mad.

Response:

Hi Roy, so, when some woman posts and say she want ex s2bx to move. Or she plans to leave and take the kids, or, when the guy posts and says he has been asked to leave, I know exactly what is going on. Child abuse, kidnapping, extortion. "I am responsible for my own happiness." – sheesh! new age pop crap!

Not all is fair, and even in general when one speaks of being responsible for your own happiness etc. , I don’t believe they don’t mean that there aren’t very negative forces that are in play. As far as a kind word….my heart is with you and hope that you can be comfortable and proud about yourself and your attempts to be a part of your childrens life. As far as Doc’s statements, not all are bitches, I am sad that you have one in your life.  Don’t go sour, have faith. Glos

Response:

As far as a kind word….my heart is with you and hope that you can be comfortable and proud about yourself and your attempts to be a part of your childrens life.

I appreciate the kind words. Guess it’s time to make my weekly call to the kids. The younger one will, as usual, not wantto talk to me. As far as Doc’s statements, not all are bitches,

The sterile ones can be trusted, if they have a note from their doc. Otherwise, trust your own doc to take care of you. I am sad that you have one in your life.

Actually, I have another in my life who is quite wonderful. Don’t go sour, have faith.

I’m not always sour. Just spewing up some vomit. It will pass. Glos

Roy

Response:

Anytime Roy, you know that!!  ((Hugs)) Daisy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – for me to ask for a kind word. Roy

Response:

for me to ask for a kind word.

You and your kids don’t deserve what she’s doing to you, and if you’d just open up and tell us the details, like her name, city, and address, we’d send out a posse to kick her witchy little ass. —– Kathryn Litherland                 | People make their own history               Latin American Studies Program     | but they do not make it under       University of Illinois, Chicago    | circumstances of their own choosing                                    |      –Karl Marx, _The 18th Brumaire_

Response:

for me to ask for a kind word. Roy

XOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXO I am sorry she is being a bitch about you seeing the kids.  I could make a voodoo doll with her name on it? Loev, Poopie Pants PS I hope there is a Karma Fairy and your ex gets her just reward

Response:

 The younger one will, as usual, not want to talk to me.

Been there, done that. I just kept calling at the right time, and they will talk if they want to. Later my oldest daughter would surprise me by calling on her own. You are there with them, Roy, believe it. As far as Doc’s statements, not all are bitches, The sterile ones can be trusted, if they have a note from their doc. Otherwise, trust your own doc to take care of you.

Very cynical. Ouchies. But realistic, I suppose. I am sad that you have one in your life. Actually, I have another in my life who is quite wonderful.

 Whatcha kevtchin’ about, then?  Hey, a lot of folks don’t even have *that*. Don’t go sour, have faith. I’m not always sour. Just spewing up some vomit. It will pass.

Just a big ol’ kidney stone, yeah, you’ll be rid of it. I spent a lot of energy being *close* to my kids – moved right within short mortar range of where their mom is living. With all that, I can not even be sure I am doing the right thing – the "confict is bad" crowd would say that since the kids’ mom and I hate each other, I should pack up my troubles, move a thousand miles away and just send a check every week. Maybe they are right, but it is not the path I have chosen, and the path I have chosen is hard, sucks and is exhausting. And I am not even sure if it is the right thing. You make your choices, live with them, and live with yourself. What else are you going to do? Just know what your choices are. Make those choices informed, and get on with your life. Else you’ll end up a tired old, shrivelled up cynical fart like me. Thoughts with you Roy. Give your better half a big hug, and fall asleep in each others’ arms tonight. There is only so much you can do, and the kids’ mom is the kids’ mom. She is their problem, unfortunately. Peace, brother. Best – Fido (Soy un perro, pero ella es una hembra!) Roy

Before you buy.

Response:

"may 99 – now-ex threatens to kill kids." ummm… Roy…does the court know about this??? Donna Before you buy.

Response:

I could make a voodoo doll with her name on it?

No need, Poopster. http://www.virtual-design.com/cgi-bin/Voodoo.pl Have fun! Belle

Response:

"may 99 – now-ex threatens to kill kids." ummm… Roy…does the court know about this???

Fucking court. Someone ought to mail a copy of Roy’s post to the Supreme Court Justice in Georgia or where ever that case was heard. Like they’ll do anything about it, anyway, Scumbags. What outrage I feel. Send a copy to the nitwits at the National Conference of Family Court Justices, too, those morons. No effing recourse when your family is torn apart by these weenies. They could fix it if they wanted to, *but they don’t*. Fuck ‘em. I’m going to bed. Roy, lighten up. I’ll be mad for both of us.   Donna Before you buy.

Before you buy.

Response:

"may 99 – now-ex threatens to kill kids." ummm… Roy…does the court know about this??? Donna

Yes. Didn’t matter. I moved out – four blocks away. I smoked pot. I went and got a girlfriend. The court did not give me time to say "I was in the home all day, every day. I handled 1st grade home school." Your call. What would judge Judy do?

Response:

I’m not always sour. Just spewing up some vomit. It will pass. Just a big ol’ kidney stone, yeah, you’ll be rid of it.

OK. I had a big dry. Geez! Thought I was done with that stuff. I spent a lot of energy being *close* to my kids – moved right within short mortar range of where their mom is living. With all that, I can not even be sure I am doing the right thing – the "confict is bad" crowd would say that since the kids’ mom and I hate each other, I should pack up my troubles, move a thousand miles away and just send a check every week. Maybe they are right, but it is not the path I have chosen, and the path I have chosen is hard, sucks and is exhausting. And I am not even sure if it is the right thing.

I understand. At the time of the moving decision, I thought that the only way she could come down from her insanity was to distance myself. I under-estimated insanity. You make your choices, live with them, and live with yourself. What else are you going to do? Just know what your choices are. Make those choices informed, and get on with your life. Else you’ll end up a tired old, shrivelled up cynical fart like me.

pffffoooooot!!!! Thoughts with you Roy. Give your better half a big hug, and fall asleep in each others’ arms tonight.

Have you ever noticed that two people in bed only need 3 arms? Indeed, one arm is always in the way. There is only so much you can do, and the kids’ mom is the kids’ mom. She is their problem, unfortunately.

They’ll survive. I can’t protect them from the world. Much as I want to. The younger one will be taught to hate me. See responses eslewhere in this thread as to why. Peace, brother. Best – Fido (Soy un perro, pero ella es una hembra!)

Did you ever try "tacos de macho"?

Response:

Roy, you’re a helluva guy. And I like you, too.

Yeah. I know. My step-dad even told me so just before he died. My gf from 27 years ago remembered me and gave up one hell of a lot because she also remembered that I am a nice guy. I keep forgetting.

Response:

for me to ask for a kind word. You and your kids don’t deserve what she’s doing to you, and if you’d just open up and tell us the details, like her name, city, and address, we’d send out a posse to kick her witchy little ass.

Tempting. I do believe that abusive people need to have their behavior "outed". Just can’t bring myself to send her a letter outlining her behavior in this matter – with cc to every family member.

Response:

XOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXO I am sorry she is being a bitch about you seeing the kids.  I could make a voodoo doll with her name on it?

The current fashion is "cultural competence". So, I was thinking about something from the dungeons of Spain, circa 1520. PS I hope there is a Karma Fairy and your ex gets her just reward

Nope. No magical retribution. Well, maybe … I do know that she is angry because she lost a truly marvelous f**k and she burns every nite for that. I can see how she looks me over in our brief child-exchange encounters.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – for me to ask for a kind word. What’s troubling you ? Maybe we can help. Everyone can use a kind word. So, talk, and we’ll listen. Is that a start ? Roy Andre 2 kids now ages 4 and 11 may 98 – moved to apt 4 blocks away. may-dec – almost no contact with kids – a couple of movies with the older kid, some one-on-one soccer at the high school dec 98 – signed visitation agreement, property partition, and all other terms with now-ex xmas holidays 98 – now-ex wants to take the kids to see her parents. I say OK. She doesn’t go, but wipes out my visit time. Xmas eve 98 – now-ex tells kids I am coming over. Does not tell me. jan 99 – now-ex tears up all agreements. gets lawyer. jan-may 99 – regular visits established – ex comes up with something to interfere, so that there is no continuous 24 hour visit spring break 99 – now-ex pull same stunt as xmas holidays 98 may 99 – now-ex threatens to kill kids. memorial weekend 99 – The kid and I "break the rules" and go for a weekend of fishing at the coast. I inform the now-ex by phone. I hang up as she screams and cries. june 99 – court date. "At last .. some legal protection." Wrong! My first testimony was to ask for verification of 4 week summer visit. Judge reduces to 2 weeks. I say "but your honor …" Judge reduces to 5 days and only with older kid. End of hearing. july 99 – I move 3 states away. Take the older kid for 5 days. fly back for 3-day visits in sept and oct 99 Tgiving 99 – kids visit for 1 week. My best friend (illegal from Mexico) give me overnite place to stay and helps with pick-up and airport delivery. Later that day his wife is repeatedly called by now-ex and threatened with legal action. Xmas 99 – one week with kids. Xmas 99 – I begin asking for copies of immunization info. Mar 99 – administrative hearing to file final papers. My lawyer says my presence not needed. Now-ex appears – All rights to participate in decisions on education, medical, etc are cross out in the decree – probably because I smoked pot. Also, she can give me 30 days notice before visit and I have to be tested. Spring break 00 – one week with kids Summer 00 – after several requests to ex and school, still no immunization info. Ex demands to come here and keep kids 3 days/wk during summer visit. 8/1/00 Letter to ex. I will be in town sometime next month on business, but don’t know exact days. Can I visit for weekend without meeting 30 day notice requirements. Also, school does not get out until tues before Xmas. This reduces xmas visit to 6 days. Can they stay for entire holidays? 9/1/00 After no response, I call. She says not to tell kids that I asked to visit in the fall. Says they can stay longer at xmas but she keeps them 3-4 days/wk 9/5/00 f**k her. I make the airline reservations – no she does not come. So, andre, I’m tired. The woman needs one good royal f**king. Any guy here want to help me out?

Well, not in *that* way. I had quite enough of that with my ex, and I am aware that I got off ( relatively ) lightly, as we didn’t make any kids. I shudder when I think of having to be tied to that *itch for the next eighteen years plus, especially in the way that the courts screw fathers. Unfortunately, I have no good ideas as to what you can do. Aside from what I occasionally hear here about finding a father’s rights friendly lawyer, and doing all that one can with the help of such a lawyer to get back was was stolen. At what ages can they state that they might want to be more with you ? I do know that one is likely a decade from this. But, the other may be within a year to three. Does it help in any way that I state that her behavior is pure EVIL, both to you and to the kids ? Someone posted a good article about modern fatherhood here, in the last day or two. It was written by Cathy Young, whose book I own. God, this is surely a time when I wish that I had some power, some ability to affect matters in such a way that you and your kids could have the relationship that you are working so hard to make. No matter what, do take good and proper care of yourself, and do what you can do, in order to relieve some of the fatigue. Folks, try to tell me that a court would do that to a mom. It’s not equal out there, and some of you ladies might find that this is a good reason why some of your men won’t commit to a new relationship. What can you ladies do about that ? Organise, and lend the fathers the support that you got from all the men who marched to get women their rights. You owe them, and you owe the kids. Do it. Now. Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

Response:

for me to ask for a kind word.

Roy, you’re a helluva guy. And I like you, too. Best – Fido Roy

Before you buy.

Response:

so, when some woman posts and say she want ex s2bx to move. Or she plans to leave and take the kids, or, when the guy posts and says he has been asked to leave, I know exactly what is going on. Child abuse, kidnapping, extortion. "I am responsible for my own happiness." – sheesh! new age pop crap!

Response:

for me to ask for a kind word. Roy

Response:

for me to ask for a kind word. Roy

Brenda Before you buy.

Response:

for me to ask for a kind word.

What’s troubling you ? Maybe we can help. Everyone can use a kind word. So, talk, and we’ll listen. Is that a start ? Roy

Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

Response:

for me to ask for a kind word. What’s troubling you ? Maybe we can help. Everyone can use a kind word. So, talk, and we’ll listen. Is that a start ? Roy Andre

2 kids now ages 4 and 11 may 98 – moved to apt 4 blocks away. may-dec – almost no contact with kids – a couple of movies with the older kid, some one-on-one soccer at the high school dec 98 – signed visitation agreement, property partition, and all other terms with now-ex xmas holidays 98 – now-ex wants to take the kids to see her parents. I say OK. She doesn’t go, but wipes out my visit time. Xmas eve 98 – now-ex tells kids I am coming over. Does not tell me. jan 99 – now-ex tears up all agreements. gets lawyer. jan-may 99 – regular visits established – ex comes up with something to interfere, so that there is no continuous 24 hour visit spring break 99 – now-ex pull same stunt as xmas holidays 98 may 99 – now-ex threatens to kill kids. memorial weekend 99 – The kid and I "break the rules" and go for a weekend of fishing at the coast. I inform the now-ex by phone. I hang up as she screams and cries. june 99 – court date. "At last .. some legal protection." Wrong! My first testimony was to ask for verification of 4 week summer visit. Judge reduces to 2 weeks. I say "but your honor …" Judge reduces to 5 days and only with older kid. End of hearing. july 99 – I move 3 states away. Take the older kid for 5 days. fly back for 3-day visits in sept and oct 99 Tgiving 99 – kids visit for 1 week. My best friend (illegal from Mexico) give me overnite place to stay and helps with pick-up and airport delivery. Later that day his wife is repeatedly called by now-ex and threatened with legal action. Xmas 99 – one week with kids. Xmas 99 – I begin asking for copies of immunization info. Mar 99 – administrative hearing to file final papers. My lawyer says my presence not needed. Now-ex appears – All rights to participate in decisions on education, medical, etc are cross out in the decree – probably because I smoked pot. Also, she can give me 30 days notice before visit and I have to be tested. Spring break 00 – one week with kids Summer 00 – after several requests to ex and school, still no immunization info. Ex demands to come here and keep kids 3 days/wk during summer visit. 8/1/00 Letter to ex. I will be in town sometime next month on business, but don’t know exact days. Can I visit for weekend without meeting 30 day notice requirements. Also, school does not get out until tues before Xmas. This reduces xmas visit to 6 days. Can they stay for entire holidays? 9/1/00 After no response, I call. She says not to tell kids that I asked to visit in the fall. Says they can stay longer at xmas but she keeps them 3-4 days/wk 9/5/00 f**k her. I make the airline reservations – no she does not come. So, andre, I’m tired. The woman needs one good royal f**king. Any guy here want to help me out?

Response:

Question:

All apologies if the answer is in an FAQ…I couldn’t find on for this NG. I’ll be on the Rogue river in OR this month, and would like to try fly fishing.  I’m a fairly learned baitcasting guy. Problem is, I’ve no equipment.  I’d like to buy a starter combo, and am looking at a Cortland (http://www.cbsmall.com/cgi-bin/webc.exe/discountfishinginc/st_prod.ht… rodid=130&p_catid=16&sid=4Wi2mP01630e2xz-27100614880.92) for $150 and this Cahill (http://thestore.alloutdoors.com/productfamily.asp?dept=1&category=103… cat=10325&pf=40193&sid=&shopperid=F2R1KL5P97S92LPH00A3HLDGRM5A3TBD) for $65. Any suggestions about brands, what to look for, how much is reasonable to spend would be appreciated.  I’m going to the local Galyan’s tomorrow.  I’d like to think I could try the hobby for $150…is that reasonable? Thanks! Scott

Response:

Yes it is entirely reasonable Scott. St Croix has the Legend series of fly rods for around $100, I own 3 of them and entirely satisfied with them all. There are several of us on this NG who have "discovered" Cabela’s 3 Forks and Stowaway series flyrods. I can tell you that I have extensively tested all my 3 Forks and Stowaways and they are well worth the money. Probably the best dollar for dollar buy on fly rods anywhere. Since you are new at this flyrodding business, a slower action rod would be the best choice for you, and the Cabela’s rods are slow action rods.  You will be fishing for trout on the Rogue (presumably) I would recommend a 5 wt 9 footer.  St Croix carries this in One other piece of advice, you can get a good reel these days for around $40 and up, and that’s really all you need, but get a decent quality line.  Hope this helps. Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All apologies if the answer is in an FAQ…I couldn’t find on for this NG. I’ll be on the Rogue river in OR this month, and would like to try fly fishing.  I’m a fairly learned baitcasting guy. Problem is, I’ve no equipment.  I’d like to buy a starter combo, and am looking at a Cortland (http://www.cbsmall.com/cgi-bin/webc.exe/discountfishinginc/st_prod.ht… p rodid=130&p_catid=16&sid=4Wi2mP01630e2xz-27100614880.92) for $150 and this Cahill (http://thestore.alloutdoors.com/productfamily.asp?dept=1&category=103… b cat=10325&pf=40193&sid=&shopperid=F2R1KL5P97S92LPH00A3HLDGRM5A3TBD) for $65. Any suggestions about brands, what to look for, how much is reasonable to spend would be appreciated.  I’m going to the local Galyan’s tomorrow.  I’d like to think I could try the hobby for $150…is that reasonable? Thanks! Scott

Response:

Welcome to flyfishing Scott.  If you want a very economical starter set, I would suggest a Pflueger Purist 5 or 6 wt 8 1/2′ rod from Kmart or GI Joe’s for about $45 and a Pflueger Medalist reel (about $30?) or an Okuma Sierra (for $39 from www.Ezyflyfish.com), and a Cortland Fair Play fly line to match the rod.  All for well under a $100.  The rods are surprisingly good performers compared to anything I’ve tried for under $100.  I agree with the idea of renting or borrowing some equipment first, if possible, and also taking some flycasting lessons. Good Luck flyfishing, Pat K * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

John, I got the beer, but where’s my steak? — Opie  –Planning for the Past–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …this is by far the best……spend three c-notes on a half a day’s fishing with a lot of instruction and a person in your frame of mind will save a lot of money in the long run…..buy the guide a beer and a sandwich or steak afterwards and keep you ears open!……john Problem is, I’ve no equipment.  I’d like to buy a starter combo, You know, there is another possibility here.  A lot of fly shops out here have rental equipment.  I would check around and find a fly shop that offers some rentals and go in there.  Chances are that you can rent equipment and perhaps get some free casting lessons while you try out rods.  That would free up some money for flies, tippet, ect while keeping the costs down to a minimum in case you don’t like fly fishing. Warren X#-[ Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

I’ve been watching this thread pretty close and it has come to my attention that more well thought out posts are now being offered. There are a great many more posts that recommend low cost great for beginners starter kits like the Cabelas line and a lot less of the "what do you want to fish for and where" along with the "get what fits you" and "The better you learn with, the better you’ll be (meaning spend a bundle on a fast long rod.) The last of which is pure BS. A beginner needs a rod that will let him feel loading and allow him time to react, is forgiving of off timing and minor foepas. Is not expensive to buy leaving enough for vet flys etc. is short enough not to tangle in tree limbs. Last but not least is a combination that is still of use even after the graduation up to the faster longer rods as expertise grows. The best advice is to amass all the mail order catalogs you can get. Study them, Then purchase a starter combo that is slow, short , and pleases your eye. By the way the reel is important unless you are fishing for shinners. John Popp

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Problem is, I’ve no equipment.  I’d like to buy a starter combo, You know, there is another possibility here.  A lot of fly shops out here have rental equipment.  I would check around and find a fly shop that offers some rentals and go in there.  Chances are that you can rent equipment and perhaps get some free casting lessons while you try out rods.  That would free up some money for flies, tippet, ect while keeping the costs down to a minimum in case you don’t like fly fishing. Warren X#-[ Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

The FAQ page can be found on the new ROFF page.  The link is bellow.  A lot of other good ROFF information is also on the page.  Enjoy.  :-) BTW, I like the Cabela’s rods for the buck.  Check out http://www.cabelas.com/texis/scripts/store/+/CatalogDisplay/displayPOD/C abFALL1998/CabFALL1998AVATAA/IA495C They are in your price range and would be a good starting point. However you should know that after you’re hooked, you might want something that cost a little bit more and that fits your particular fishing style. — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey All apologies if the answer is in an FAQ…I couldn’t find on for this NG. (snip) Problem is, I’ve no equipment.  I’d like to buy a starter combo, and am looking at a Cortland for $150 and this Cahill (snip)… I’d like to think I could try the hobby for $150…is that reasonable?

YES Thanks! Scott

Before you buy.

Response:

…this is by far the best……spend three c-notes on a half a day’s fishing with a lot of instruction and a person in your frame of mind will save a lot of money in the long run…..buy the guide a beer and a sandwich or steak afterwards and keep you ears open!……john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Problem is, I’ve no equipment.  I’d like to buy a starter combo, You know, there is another possibility here.  A lot of fly shops out here have rental equipment.  I would check around and find a fly shop that offers some rentals and go in there.  Chances are that you can rent equipment and perhaps get some free casting lessons while you try out rods.  That would free up some money for flies, tippet, ect while keeping the costs down to a minimum in case you don’t like fly fishing. Warren X#-[ Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

All apologies if the answer is in an FAQ…I couldn’t find on for this NG.

There is a FAQ somewhere, but the best advice on ROFF is "DUCK!" and "Be afraid, be very afraid…"  <G.  Seriously, a FAQ on this would be kinda useless, as there are many opinions.  You know what they say about opinions and assholes?   Well, ROFF is ground zero…<G. I’ll be on the Rogue river in OR this month, and would like to try fly fishing.  I’m a fairly learned baitcasting guy.

Oregon?  There are some here that will be a great help, I’m sure. Problem is, I’ve no equipment.  I’d like to buy a starter combo, and am looking at a Cortland (http://www.cbsmall.com/cgi-bin/webc.exe/discountfishinginc/st_prod.ht… rodid=130&p_catid=16&sid=4Wi2mP01630e2xz-27100614880.92) for $150 and this Cahill (http://thestore.alloutdoors.com/productfamily.asp?dept=1&category=103… cat=10325&pf=40193&sid=&shopperid=F2R1KL5P97S92LPH00A3HLDGRM5A3TBD) for $65.

JMO, but I wouldn’t buy your first rod via mail order.  Trying to buy a rod/reel this way is like saying "I like blue.  Please send blue pants." You really need to actually feel, handle, and optimally, cast the rod, especially as a novice. Any suggestions about brands, what to look for, how much is reasonable to spend would be appreciated.  I’m going to the local Galyan’s tomorrow.  I’d like to think I could try the hobby for $150…is that reasonable?

Well, again, JMO, but you did ask:  Is that reasonable?  Yes.  Possible? Yes.  Likely?  Depends.  Confused?  Sorry.  Seriously, it is related to the advice above in that you need to find a rod you like, and you might like a 20.00 rod or you might like a 2000.00 rod.   If your situation is such that money is no object, then buy what you like, period, be it 20.00 or 2000.00.  IMO, any synthetic rod over about 200.00 is priced for reasons other than "cost," i.e. seat and handle hardware, finish, guides, name, handwork, warranty, etc., and is a "value to buyer" situation.  This is OK, just understand what your money is buying. If you need/want to stay on a budget (or just have a frugal streak), go get a cheapo rod and reel (if you buy a "Starter Set," you will likely need another line) at WalMart/KMart or get something used, like at a pawn shop, in the appropriate size.  Why?  Simple: you likely don’t know what you like, and having no experience to go on, won’t know cheap from expensive, or even if you like the sport, so why risk any more than needed to check it out?  I’ll say JMO, but I’d doubt any could prove me wrong: A 20.00 flyrod can have, and usually does have, more in common with a 1000.00 rod than a novice would think, same for a 15.00 versus a 600.00 reel (learning, practice, freshwater, and, generally, fish under 15ish pounds), but a 15.00 line is not likely even close to 40.00 line. A 1500.00 rig will not be easier or faster to learn on, nor will it necessarily be "better" for a particular person.  Buy a good DT (Double Taper) line for practice because when you wear one end out _practicing_(hint, hint), you can reverse it and have a "new line."  A WF (Weight Forward) would seem a waste here, but YMMV. Also, JMO: you can teach yourself, but lessons from a pro or experienced flyrodder can be invaluable and will likely speed things up.  This is where some "budgeting" might come in: If a shop you like and feel you trust offers free classes for new customers, but charges for non-customers, that might figure into the above "cheapo" advice, and would likely be worth figuring in. HTH? TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Scott

Response:

Problem is, I’ve no equipment.  I’d like to buy a starter combo,

You know, there is another possibility here.  A lot of fly shops out here have rental equipment.  I would check around and find a fly shop that offers some rentals and go in there.  Chances are that you can rent equipment and perhaps get some free casting lessons while you try out rods.  That would free up some money for flies, tippet, ect while keeping the costs down to a minimum in case you don’t like fly fishing. Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

Question:

what is the best way to clean line?  I use Wilson Creek the night before I go Fishing.  I can not handle my line not flowing through the rod when I am mending a drift.  What do other people do to clean line?

Response:

what is the best way to clean line?  I use Wilson Creek the night before I go Fishing.  I can not handle my line not flowing through the rod when I am mending a drift.  What do other people do to clean line?

Unfortunately, I don’t clean my lines as often as I should.  When they no longer fit through the guides, I know I’ve got too much crud on them. Seriously, the cheapest way to actually clean a fly line (in my opinion) is to wash it in a tub with soapy water.  Then, rinse in clean water and wipe dry.  That deals with the cleaning issue.  Keeping a line conditioned is another matter.  I have purchased a lot of lines over the years and have a desk drawer full of the line conditioners that come with the fly lines.  I use these for the most part…just because I have them, they work and I haven’t found a need to purchase anything else.  I’ve also used Armor All (sp??) on lines at times and it seems to work…but I’ve not checked with any of the line manufacturers about it.  Perhaps someone can tell me if I’m doing any damage to the lines with it.  It sure helps with my shooting line in terms of decreasing friction and adding to the length of my casts. Barry Brown

Response:

   I like Bon Ami, a sponge and a bucket of warm water. When the line is dry run some Russ Peaks over it. Like new till it gets dirty again.     On the water I use those abrasive pads sold by SA fo rcleaning lines. They’re great for a couple of times then they get all gunky.    -Ralph what is the best way to clean line?  I use Wilson Creek the night before I go Fishing.  I can not handle my line not flowing through the rod when I am mending a drift.  What do other people do to clean line?

Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com  /v/                             /v/

Response:

what is the best way to clean line?  I use Wilson Creek the night before I go Fishing.  I can not handle my line not flowing through the rod when I am mending a drift.  What do other people do to clean line?

By default, I use Glide.  It’s all the two local shops sell. Does anyone still sell the "Greased Lightening" line cleaner?  I don’t even see it in the catalogs anymore.

Response:

I have been using that Scientific Anglers stuff.  It has a small cleaning pad and then some goop to put on the line.  It seems to work very well although the cleaning pads get dirty very quickly.  BTW, the Orvis line cleaning kit is exactly the same as the Scientific Anglers one. MikeH

Response:

what is the best way to clean line?  I use Wilson Creek the night before I go Fishing.  I can not handle my line not flowing through the rod when I am mending a drift.  What do other people do to clean line? By default, I use Glide.  It’s all the two local shops sell. Does anyone still sell the "Greased Lightening" line cleaner?  I don’t even see it in the catalogs anymore.

There is some new stuff by Tiemco that is really slick. Russ Peak line dressing has been popular for years. Many use Mucilin paste. I would first wash the line in mild soap, Ivory liquid, and dry it, if it is really dirty. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

Response:

(sp??) on lines at times and it seems to work…but I’ve not checked with any of the line manufacturers about it.  Perhaps someone can tell me if I’m doing any damage to the lines with it.  It sure helps with my shooting line in terms of decreasing friction and adding to the length of my casts. Barry Brown

Barry and Others: Armor-All is a repolymerizer, and yes, does well to protect your Vinyl lines.  However, it is an emulsion and the emulsifiers stay on the line. This allows the stuff to be washed off the line when you use it in water.  A better formulation is the Blue Coral non-aqueous stuff with "Fomblin".  It repells water and helps you line float like a cork. Nothing shoots line like this stuff and nothing lasts longer. Jason Beary

Response:

Question:

I can’t imagine fly fishing with a buzz in my head.  -AR christ almighty beer is not heroin, man… Beer is no heroin.  But fly fishing is no hardware fishing either.

true…flyfishing is much easier…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t imagine fly fishing with a buzz in my head.  -AR christ almighty beer is not heroin, man… Beer is no heroin.  But fly fishing is no hardware fishing either. I hesitate to take aspirin before ff.  Want all my senses at 100%. That’s how you catch big fish. Cheers, -Ande Rychter

I wish I would have known that fishing without a buzz would improved my fishing back in the sixties.  I might have caught some real big ones. Don Kelly

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t imagine fly fishing with a buzz in my head.  -AR christ almighty beer is not heroin, man… Beer is no heroin.  But fly fishing is no hardware fishing either. I hesitate to take aspirin before ff.  Want all my senses at 100%. That’s how you catch big fish. Cheers, -Ande Rychter I wish I would have known that fishing without a buzz would improved my fishing back in the sixties.  I might have caught some real big ones.

Buzzes or Fish ? TimW

Response:

Yes, the good old sixties. T Wigs.

Response:

Why brake? Cheap tying materials.

T Wigs

Response:

: Beer is no heroin.  But fly fishing is no hardware fishing either. : I hesitate to take aspirin before ff.  Want all my senses at 100%. : That’s how you catch big fish. No wonder I’m stuck in the 12 inch trout range.  I’ve been taking aspirin all these years! Thanks for the tip Ande. Coming back this way again this year? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

I can’t imagine fly fishing with a buzz in my head.  -AR christ almighty beer is not heroin, man…

If a couple of pulls on the bottle leave you too buzzed to fish then I wouldn’t touch the stuff at all ! "I brake for animals and speed up for PETA" Brian Di Carlo

Response:

I can’t imagine fly fishing with a buzz in my head.  -AR christ almighty beer is not heroin, man…

Beer is no heroin.  But fly fishing is no hardware fishing either. I hesitate to take aspirin before ff.  Want all my senses at 100%. That’s how you catch big fish. Cheers, -Ande Rychter

Response:

I can’t imagine fly fishing with a buzz in my head.  -AR

Response:

I can’t imagine fly fishing with a buzz in my head.  -AR

christ almighty beer is not heroin, man…

Response:

Question:

Hey John Fereira!    My news server has been out for three days and I just noticed on the news.groups that a CFV has started for flytying. Has it been posted here on ROFF?    This is the time folks! You don’t have to discuss it any more, just vote. I’ve sent in my vote and received a reply that it has been counted. Keep your feet dry, — lukn4fish Bob San Jose, Ca

Response:

Hey John Fereira!   My news server has been out for three days and I just noticed on the news.groups that a CFV has started for flytying. Has it been posted here on ROFF?   This is the time folks! You don’t have to discuss it any more, just vote. I’ve sent in my vote and received a reply that it has been counted. Keep your feet dry,

Yes, it was posted here, in rec.outdoors.fishing, and in news.groups. I vote YES for rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying or I vote NO for rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying as the only line in the text of the message. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response: