Question:

/daytripper (Cripes, I’d have to Google "PHP" just to find out if that’s some kind of pig tranquilizer or software!

Freakin’ chiphead. Got time to check out the Nissitisset Friday AM?  I have to be in Andover at 2ish and was going to try to be on the river from say 7-12 or so…

Response:

/daytripper (Cripes, I’d have to Google "PHP" just to find out if that’s some kind of pig tranquilizer or software! Freakin’ chiphead.

Been called a lot worse Got time to check out the Nissitisset Friday AM?  I have to be in Andover at 2ish and was going to try to be on the river from say 7-12 or so…

Ya know, there’s actually a possibility I could do that, and maybe drag Paul along as well. Stay in touch during the week and we’ll see how things develop. I’ll give Paul a ring and let him know what’s up. Forecast is for overcast and cool 50’s. Sounds good! /daytripper (NH season ends this weekend. Without me. Rats!)

Response:

Daytripper, Thank you. I was able to retrieve a tab delimited text file of a USGS site at:

http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ny/nwis/uv?dd_cd=04&format=rdb&period=1&sit… 427500 However, when I retreive let’s say – one day – of this data – I get the data every fifteen minutes or about 96 records. All I want is the *real time* data of *one*record each and every time a user wants that file without the previous records of the past 23 hours and 45 minutes. Is there any way to filter out all other data except for the last – or better – *current* record of data.

Sounds like a job for PHP dude.  Just loop through the records parsing off the flow and keep the last one you see before hitting EOF. –Stan (always up for brute force solutions)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Daytripper, Thank you. I was able to retrieve a tab delimited text file of a USGS site at: http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ny/nwis/uv?dd_cd=04&format=rdb&period=1&sit… 427500 However, when I retreive let’s say – one day – of this data – I get the data every fifteen minutes or about 96 records. All I want is the *real time* data of *one*record each and every time a user wants that file without the previous records of the past 23 hours and 45 minutes. Is there any way to filter out all other data except for the last – or better – *current* record of data. Please advise and thanks for your time.

Tony, I haven’t seen a way to get just the one record that you request.   However, if your able to parse the data in the format suggested by Daytripper, you should be able to quickly parse all 96 records and find the most recent entry.  I don’t know what PHP has to offer, but you could sort the data based upon the time and read the one entry.  You could also try reading the first record at the end of the file. the info you desire.  They are pretty good guys to work with, or at least they used to be.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Daytripper, Thank you. I was able to retrieve a tab delimited text file of a USGS site at: http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ny/nwis/uv?dd_cd=04&format=rdb&period=1&sit… 427500 However, when I retreive let’s say – one day – of this data – I get the data every fifteen minutes or about 96 records. All I want is the *real time* data of *one*record each and every time a user wants that file without the previous records of the past 23 hours and 45 minutes. Is there any way to filter out all other data except for the last – or better – *current* record of data. Please advise and thanks for your time. Tony, I haven’t seen a way to get just the one record that you request. However, if your able to parse the data in the format suggested by Daytripper, you should be able to quickly parse all 96 records and find the most recent entry.  I don’t know what PHP has to offer, but you could sort the data based upon the time and read the one entry.  You could also try reading the first record at the end of the file. the info you desire.  They are pretty good guys to work with, or at least they used to be.

Goddamnit!  Hey Wayno!  What the hell are these guys doing?  Are they calling us bad names or what?    :( Wolfgang boy……they just better not be!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Daytripper, Thank you. I was able to retrieve a tab delimited text file of a USGS site at: http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ny/nwis/uv?dd_cd=04&format=rdb&period=1&sit… 427500 However, when I retreive let’s say – one day – of this data – I get the data every fifteen minutes or about 96 records. All I want is the *real time* data of *one*record each and every time a user wants that file without the previous records of the past 23 hours and 45 minutes. Is there any way to filter out all other data except for the last – or better – *current* record of data. Please advise and thanks for your time. Tony Ritter

Whew! It’s unnerving to see my handle as the subject. And tagged with an exclamation point, no less! (First reaction: "Oh shit! WTF did I say this time?" You’ll do better to use Stan and "Bouncer" to get you through parsing web data.  I’m a hardware guy with just enough software and networks knowledge to be a pita to sysops everywhere… /daytripper (Cripes, I’d have to Google "PHP" just to find out if that’s some kind of pig tranquilizer or software!

Response:

Daytripper, Thank you. I was able to retrieve a tab delimited text file of a USGS site at: http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ny/nwis/uv?dd_cd=04&format=rdb&period=1&sit… 427500 However, when I retreive let’s say – one day – of this data – I get the data every fifteen minutes or about 96 records. All I want is the *real time* data of *one*record each and every time a user wants that file without the previous records of the past 23 hours and 45 minutes. Is there any way to filter out all other data except for the last – or better – *current* record of data. Please advise and thanks for your time. Tony Ritter

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please include the link that you mentioned in your post below. Couldn’t find it in your original post. I sent another message earlier this morning and an email already!  Here is the link one more time. http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/sw Rock, Thanks for the reply. I went to the URL that you mentioned and I’m still baffled. For example, here is a station I would like: 01427510 If I go the USGS website and query this station, I get the whole page (html – graphics) along with other information which I do not need. All I need is the following data string… 01427510  DELAWARE RIVER AT CALLICOON NY   10/07 17:30  3.14  1,210 1,285  –  17.2 Would I have to use a PHP regexp function to match the pattern I’m looking for in the string to weed out the extraneous information on that page or is there a straight CSV file from the USGS for this station? Please advise. Thank you. Tony Ritter You can get a tab-delimited data file by clicking in the right places, perfect for importing into Excel (for instance). It has a bit of header cruft but there’s enough formatting to be easily filtered to extract the data and ignore the cruft… An abbreviated example, taken from a smallish Maine river that I’m familiar with (the actual file had a month worth of data taken every 15 minutes): # The data you have obtained from this automated # U.S. Geological Survey database have not received # Director’s approval and as such are provisional # and subject to revision.  The data are released # on the condition that neither the USGS nor the # United States Government may be held liable for # any damages resulting from its use. # # Additional information can be obtained from the USGS at #   http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nh/nwis/help/?provisional # # # This file consists of tab-separated columns of data # The columns include the following fields # # column        column definition # agency_cd     Agency collection or maintaining the site # site_no       USGS site identification number # datetime      date and time in ISO format (YYYY-mm-dd HH:MM:SS) # # The remaining fields vary for each site.  The field names # uniquely define sensor (the ‘data descriptor’) and  the # used to collect the data used to collect the data # and the 5 number sequence is the ‘parameter_cd’ # that defines the type of data shown in the column. # # # Data for the following stations is contained in this file #  USGS 01052500 Diamond River near Wentworth Location, NH # # # # # # List of available data for this site.  Lines preceeded by # an asterix ‘*’ are included in the data file. # #  DD parameter – Description # *01   00060   – DISCHARGE, CUBIC FEET PER SECOND #  03   00065   – GAGE HEIGHT, FEET # agency_cd       site_no datetime        01_00060 /daytripper

Response:

RockTrout: Please include the link that you mentioned in your post below. Couldn’t find it in your original post. Thank you. Tony Ritter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 10:59 PM Does anybody know if there is a source where I can get a csv – or comma separated file – from the USGS for particular stations on rivers in New York State. I don’t want to open a js pop up window of that particular USGS station but want to open their URL or FTP and use PHP to parse the data string into an array for output. Use this link and work your way to the appropriate stations.  You can obtain historical data in this fashion.

Response:

Please include the link that you mentioned in your post below. Couldn’t find it in your original post.

I sent another message earlier this morning and an email already!  Here is the link one more time. http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/sw

Response:

Rock, Thanks for the reply. I went to the URL that you mentioned and I’m still baffled. For example, here is a station I would like: 01427510 If I go the USGS website and query this station, I get the whole page (html – graphics) along with other information which I do not need. All I need is the following data string… 01427510  DELAWARE RIVER AT CALLICOON NY   10/07 17:30  3.14  1,210 1,285  –  17.2 Would I have to use a PHP regexp function to match the pattern I’m looking for in the string to weed out the extraneous information on that page or is there a straight CSV file from the USGS for this station? Please advise. Thank you. Tony Ritter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please include the link that you mentioned in your post below. Couldn’t find it in your original post. I sent another message earlier this morning and an email already!  Here is the link one more time. http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/sw

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please include the link that you mentioned in your post below. Couldn’t find it in your original post. I sent another message earlier this morning and an email already!  Here is the link one more time. http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/sw Rock, Thanks for the reply. I went to the URL that you mentioned and I’m still baffled. For example, here is a station I would like: 01427510 If I go the USGS website and query this station, I get the whole page (html – graphics) along with other information which I do not need. All I need is the following data string… 01427510  DELAWARE RIVER AT CALLICOON NY   10/07 17:30  3.14  1,210 1,285  –  17.2 Would I have to use a PHP regexp function to match the pattern I’m looking for in the string to weed out the extraneous information on that page or is there a straight CSV file from the USGS for this station? Please advise. Thank you. Tony Ritter

You can get a tab-delimited data file by clicking in the right places, perfect for importing into Excel (for instance). It has a bit of header cruft but there’s enough formatting to be easily filtered to extract the data and ignore the cruft… An abbreviated example, taken from a smallish Maine river that I’m familiar with (the actual file had a month worth of data taken every 15 minutes): # The data you have obtained from this automated # U.S. Geological Survey database have not received # Director’s approval and as such are provisional # and subject to revision.  The data are released # on the condition that neither the USGS nor the # United States Government may be held liable for # any damages resulting from its use. # # Additional information can be obtained from the USGS at #   http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nh/nwis/help/?provisional # # # This file consists of tab-separated columns of data # The columns include the following fields # # column        column definition # agency_cd     Agency collection or maintaining the site # site_no       USGS site identification number # datetime      date and time in ISO format (YYYY-mm-dd HH:MM:SS) # # The remaining fields vary for each site.  The field names # uniquely define sensor (the ‘data descriptor’) and  the # used to collect the data used to collect the data # and the 5 number sequence is the ‘parameter_cd’ # that defines the type of data shown in the column. # # # Data for the following stations is contained in this file #  USGS 01052500 Diamond River near Wentworth Location, NH # # # # # # List of available data for this site.  Lines preceeded by # an asterix ‘*’ are included in the data file. # #  DD parameter – Description # *01   00060   – DISCHARGE, CUBIC FEET PER SECOND #  03   00065   – GAGE HEIGHT, FEET # agency_cd       site_no datetime        01_00060 /daytripper

Response:

Question:

I have no idea of your motives BUT one thing I do know, DO NOT EVER SEND ME a private email again. 14 who was just wonder what your original post was meant to convey and who is now pissed that you sent me a private post.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     This is confusing.  Did you believe me to have a nepharious motive?  I don’t know what your motive is since I don’t know you.  I don’t believe you know me.  Let’s keep it that way shall we? 14 Hi all,     This posting was kindly provided to me by Lynda Cunningham. -snipped to save bandwidth-

Response:

    This is confusing.  Did you believe me to have a nepharious motive?  I don’t know what your motive is since I don’t know you.  I don’t believe you know me.  Let’s keep it that way shall we?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 14 Hi all,     This posting was kindly provided to me by Lynda Cunningham. -snipped to save bandwidth-

Response:

14

Hi all,     This posting was kindly provided to me by Lynda Cunningham.

-snipped to save bandwidth-

Response:

    I did not realize it would upset you.  You can be certain I won’t send you a private e-mail again.  I promise.  But you do not have any right whatsoever to show such agression to me about it.  If you wish to protect your privacy then don’t include your e-mail address.  It is a simple matter to remove it.     My original post was intended to be helpful and interesting, nothing more.  It arose from the presence of the very disagreable post concerning cr**lty to animals.  I feared that a cross-posted item like that would harm the "nice" (I was sure fooled) atmosphere I found here.     You go ahead and be "pissed" at me.  But if you don’t want to recieve e-mails again in future it is your responsibility to remove your e-mail something.     Don’t worry.  I have removed you from my contacts list as I reserve that for friends.  And since I intend to forget about you, it doesn’t matter a tinker’s damm if you are "pissed" at me. Peter

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have no idea of your motives BUT one thing I do know, DO NOT EVER SEND ME a private email again. 14 who was just wonder what your original post was meant to convey and who is now pissed that you sent me a private post.     This is confusing.  Did you believe me to have a nepharious motive? I don’t know what your motive is since I don’t know you.  I don’t believe you know me.  Let’s keep it that way shall we? 14 Hi all,     This posting was kindly provided to me by Lynda Cunningham. -snipped to save bandwidth-

Response:

Dear Peter… I have been a member of this ng for a very long time.  I don’t post as frequently as I’d like so I will say this to you… I was not threatening you, I told you not to do it again, which is not a threat, it is a request. If you ask other members of this ng about private postings that are uninvited I’m sure you will get as much information as you need to know, it’s a very tricky proposition here.  It is very scary for people to get unsolicited private email from people they do not know, especially when it appears to be a flame. Check it out… As for my email address… it has always been used on this ng and will continue to be used on this ng.  For you to tell me not to use it is absurd and I will NOT remove it, is that clear?  You have an obligation on this ng to check out whether or not a person will accept private emails before you send one. And BTW Itchy is one of my insiders, it’s not a joke as you make it out to be and I resent it.  My name is 14, a name, not a number. As for the animal post, I was not and will not be a part of that thread so I don’t know the history of it since I didn’t read it. 14 who is trying to not lose her temper because you are an new comer to the group. PS I never asked to be on your contact list!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I did not realize it would upset you.  You can be certain I won’t send you a private e-mail again.  I promise.  But you do not have any right whatsoever to show such agression to me about it.  If you wish to protect your privacy then don’t include your e-mail address.  It is a simple matter to remove it.     My original post was intended to be helpful and interesting, nothing more.  It arose from the presence of the very disagreable post concerning cr**lty to animals.  I feared that a cross-posted item like that would harm the "nice" (I was sure fooled) atmosphere I found here.     You go ahead and be "pissed" at me.  But if you don’t want to recieve e-mails again in future it is your responsibility to remove your e-mail something.     Don’t worry.  I have removed you from my contacts list as I reserve that for friends.  And since I intend to forget about you, it doesn’t matter a tinker’s damm if you are "pissed" at me. Peter I have no idea of your motives BUT one thing I do know, DO NOT EVER SEND ME a private email again. 14 who was just wonder what your original post was meant to convey and who is now pissed that you sent me a private post.     This is confusing.  Did you believe me to have a nepharious motive? I don’t know what your motive is since I don’t know you.  I don’t believe you know me.  Let’s keep it that way shall we? 14 Hi all,     This posting was kindly provided to me by Lynda Cunningham. -snipped to save bandwidth-

Response:

Hi all,     This posting was kindly provided to me by Lynda Cunningham. What is a troll? The term "troll" has several meanings on usenet. You have the Real Life[tm] meanings as given to us by Merriam Webster: troll (trol) v. 1.To fish for by running a baited line behind a slowly moving boat n 1. A creature of Scandinavian folklore variously portrayed as a dwarf or giant living in caves or under bridges. And then there’s the usenet meanings – which are actually rather similar to those above. In the case of the verb, the definition is close – with one small twist; _you_ are the thing that someone is trying to catch – and catch you they will if you aren’t wary. For bait, the troll will often take the form of a derogatory post – one that is designed to incite as much reaction as possible. For each person who responds, the poster will consider that person "caught". The troll is considered to have been a complete success if it disrupts the normal traffic on a newsgroup. In extreme cases, trolls are posted by groups of people and crossposted to unrelated newsgroups in an attempt to destroy those groups by flooding them with flames and off-topic ranting. Then, there is the noun, which again is nearly dead on, but this type of troll has an e-mail account, a global bridge to hide under, and a fishing pole to match – beware, for the hills are full of ‘em. How can I spot a troll? Most trolls take the form of blanket statements designed solely to generate as many irate responses as possible. Posts with subject lines such as: "Macs suck Worse than Amiga’s!" or "Mac Users are pathetic losers" Are most likely trolls. Also, trolls love to generate mayhem by crossposting derogatory statements to two rival groups and watching the sparks fly as the groups flame each other into oblivion. That being the case, it is usually a good idea to think _very_ long and hard before responding to anything that is crossposted. If you must reply to a crossposted message – edit the header to only include one newsgroup; otherwise, take it to e-mail – or risk being branded a weenie for life. Trolls can also pop up in existing threads. These are usually the most distressing as they are unsuspected. Suddenly, you are confronted with someone you believe to be a mac user , who has taken a ridiculous position which just pisses you off from here to hades.  Remember, if you find yourself thinking, "I can’t believe this guy", it’s a good chance that the post is a troll. You’ll know for sure if the same person is consistently stupid and infuriating throughout the majority of his posts to the newsgroup. Are trolls made by real people? Nope. Trolls are made by nasty little people who crave far more attention than they deserve. Most of them are inadequate losers with absolutely_no_lives_what_so_ever! Remember that, a troll, by virtue of their lack of a life, will always have more time on his hands than you – it’s part of the inhuman nature of the beast. Also, be advised that trolls will also band together. There is a group of people known as alt.syntax.tactical who make it their life’s work to destroy as many groups as they can. They consider a group destroyed when more than three quarters of the threads on a group have been started by them; and the group is unusable for normal traffic. Why do trolls troll? Ah, good question. While there is no way of knowing why all trolls troll, there are some good theories. The general concensus is that the troll is trying to build up a flaccid ego; the troll sees himself as superior to anyone who responds to the bait. The worst thing you can do, in the eyes of the troll, is not respond at all – to absolutely ignore them. By not reacting, you have completely defeated their purpose in life. In other words, the troll sees his self-worth in how much of a reaction he can inspire – ignore him, and you confirm his worthlessness. It’s your best weapon. What’s the best way to deal with a troll? Contrary to most people’s natural instincts, the best tactic is to do absolutely nothing. In other words, _DO_NOT_ respond to a troll. To do so is to play entirely into the trolls hands. I cannot stress this enough. If left alone, the troll will usually get bored and go away – leaving many happy Mac Users to ride off into the sunset doing various backwards and forwards victory dances. Read that last paragraph carefully. It is of the highest importance if we are to keep trolls at bay. So, remember, a troll’s greatest joy is to piss _YOU_ off. Unless you deny him what he wants, he will stay around for more – gleefully feasting off your frustration, anger, indignation and vain attempts to reason with him. If you look right through him like everyone else in his miserable stinking life has, then he will usually slither back into his cave and/or find his prey elsewhere. I can flame with the best of ‘em – shouldn’t I just drive them off? Unfortuantely, no. The above assumption is based on the premise that trolls are actually like real people. They are not; they thrive off of negative input. Input in any form makes them feel more important and will only cause them to stay. Sure, you may be able to successfully spank a troll here or there if you are good – and we mean DAMN good. Flaming is an art that many, many, try, few master, and nearly all think they are good at. As a rule, DON’T flame ‘em, it does NOT work and will only prolong the agony for everybody else. But they make me so mad I want to scream – can I? By all means no! If you must scream, do so at your neighbors cat or the PC at work. It will be much more effective than screaming at the troll. If you absolutely must respond due to some personal neurological disorder, please do so in email and not on the group. Admitedly screaming at the troll via e-mail isn’t always possible because of certian troll tactics, but it is your only recourse. To respond to the troll on the newsgroup will only invite alt.mac members to flame you and b*at you about the head, – and not necessarily in that order. The troll won’t go away – there must be *something* I can do? YES! Some trolls just don’t know when to give up. These can be referred to as "klingons" – as they keep "clinging on" to the notion that their continued presence his going to eventually make somebody snap. You have several lines of defense at your disposal. The first, and possibly the best, thing that you can do is learn how to use a k*llfile. A k*llfile is a list of people and places that you want your newsbrowser to ignore. Thus, if you add the troll to your k*llfile, you’ll barely know they exist. It’s like magic (amazing, eh?). The second major thing you can do is complain to their postmaster. The postmaster is the person who has the job of making sure that everything runs smoothly at a given news/internet provider. Since a postmaster is often overworked, the last thing he wants to deal with is some weenie on his site causing all kinds of problems. Thus, the only way to fix the problem is to get rid of the source. That’s right, enough complaints to the postmaster, and the nasty little trolls are gone – tossed onto the streets and looking for another cave to be miserable in. -BUT- and this is a big but, if the troll is using a forged account, your complaints either won’t mean a thing, or will get someone else (other than the troll) in hot water.  So, be careful and don’t do try it unless you know what you’re doing. Okay, then how do I contact a postmaster? really pissed you off for the last time and you feel it’s time to complain. To complain to his postmaster you would end it to: this, though, is many trolls use fake addresses or anon. remailers; so getting the trolls real address is impossible. If the address is fake (rather than a remailer), checking the header can often give you the originating site Also, a good letter to a postmaster should start with a brief and polite comment, saying that the troll in question is causing trouble on the newsgroup with his off-topic rantings. Most postmasters will not yank accounts just for offensive behaviour (thank goodness, since anything you say has the potential to offend -someone-); but they will yank accounts for persistent off-topic posting. Lastly, the letter should then include the -entire- text of the offensive post, WITH HEADERS INTACT. Do not edit. But, I want to rip the troll’s throat out so hard it makes his whole family hurt for years – what else is there that I can do? Well, while I don’t officially advocate it, you _can_ engage in "A Slight Case of Overbombing." That is: The Mail Bomb- a nasty weapon usually reserved for the nastiest of trolls and is best when done by many people working in concert with one another. Mailbombs _can_ blow up in your face, even if they are successful. Once a "person’s" mailbox is full, all mail sent is often reflected back at the sender. There are also other nastinesses that can transpire, but they are beyond the scope of this. What’s a flame? Well, the following is taken from the EFF’s Guide to the Internet, v.2.21 -it seems to sum it up the best: "A flame is a particularly nasty, personal attack on somebody for something he or she has written. Periodically, an exchange of flames erupts into a flame war that begins to take up all the space in a given newsgroup (and sometimes several; flamers like cross-posting to let the world know how they feel). These can go on for weeks (sometimes they go on for years, in which case they become "holy wars," [-usually on such groundbreaking topics as the relative merits of Macintoshes vs. IBMs]. Often, just when they’re dying down, somebody new to the flame war reads all the messages, gets upset and issues an urgent plea that the flame war be taken to e-mail so everybody else can get back to whatever the … read more »

Response:

I can’t make it okay for you, I’m sorry.  The only thing that has upset me is the private post, can you understand?  I don’t know Peter, he may be a really great guy, but I won’t accept the fact that he posted me privately, unsolicited.  That’s my only point in all this. Hope you are ok. 14

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hopw we can stop now we like peter adn eveybody so make it ok ok?

Response:

hopw we can stop now we like peter adn eveybody so make it ok ok?

Response:

Question:

I am seriously considering opening a flyshop, but need help with methods of capture.  I have tried using fly strips, but can’t get a complete fly loose from the strip.  Wings, legs, and various other body parts just peel off the flys.  I have also tried using the fly rod, but I can only imagine that one must be especially adept at hooking flys with a long pole, loose string, and a tiny hook.  I have considered using my hands, but that is so disgusting. Once caught, how does one go about preserving the fly for sale? Any help would be greatly appreciated!  Fishing-Shop Fellow

Response:

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Waldo has this pal Opie that always seems to have flies buzzing about… <g — Charlie…

Response:

Need to work on my stealth posting methods too, I guess? Opie     **Psychic To The Recently Deceased**

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am seriously considering opening a flyshop, but need help with methods of capture.  I have tried using fly strips, but can’t get a complete fly loose from the strip.  Wings, legs, and various other body parts just peel off the flys.  I have also tried using the fly rod, but I can only imagine that one must be especially adept at hooking flys with a long pole, loose string, and a tiny hook.  I have considered using my hands, but that is so disgusting. Once caught, how does one go about preserving the fly for sale? Any help would be greatly appreciated!  Fishing-Shop Fellow

Response:

Need to work on my stealth posting methods too, I guess?

Nah, that’s about the right amount. Too much and it’s not funny, it’s just sneaky. — Charlie…

Response:

Dammit Charlie, I was goin’ for sneaky, not funny.  Who would ever figger that anyone would actually notice my e-address? Opie     **Psychic To The Recently Deceased**

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Need to work on my stealth posting methods too, I guess? Nah, that’s about the right amount. Too much and it’s not funny, it’s just sneaky. — Charlie…

Response:

Just keep your mouth wide open, and remove the contents occasionally.

It will also help immensely if you eat shit. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Now that’s just down right rude Stevie!  I hope that you don’t eat with that mouth. I hope your horsey has better manners! Opie     **Psychic To The Recently Deceased**

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just keep your mouth wide open, and remove the contents occasionally. It will also help immensely if you eat shit. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Just keep your mouth wide open, and remove the contents occasionally. TL MC — "If you have tried everything you know, and nothing works, then perhaps it is time to accept that you don

Question:

Great report, guys.  Peter, are you standing in a hole in that picture?  <g Never saw Forty in waders.  Hope I never do again.  <g  I like your hat, Forty.  Eff ‘em all if they don’t! Glad you guys had a great trip, and like Charlie has said, I find it hard to believe it did not rain.   Dave LaCourse

Response:

They call it "The Carnival" because during steelhead season it is packed with anglers. On a Monday morning, it was relatively uncrowded. "Relatively" being the key word.

Welcome to Michigan! A great day of fishing. The Muskegon River is a beautiful piece of water. It supports a spawning population of steelhead and Chinook salmon. It’s not really a trout stream, though. All the trout are stockers and they don’t get any natural reproduction.

I believe there are places where you can find resident trout.  I was speaking with a guy last night who has been fishing the Muskegon on and off for the last three weeks.  He said he caught several browns and rainbows in the 16" – 19".  Of course he was fishing private water that is rarely encountered except for people who are taking long float trips. Good to hear you guys got into some steelies.  I’ve been meaning to go out this year but only made it out once and left early after only two hours of fishing.  I was disgusted by the "relatively" uncrowded conditions.  Did catch some trout but on my 9 wt they weren’t too much fun. Mu

Response:

Glad you guys had a great trip, and like Charlie has said, I find it hard to believe it did not rain.   Dave LaCourse

Worse, it snowed. Peter

Response:

real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html

The truth ain’t always ugly.  Nice pics, whoever took them – both you and Ken did a good job of that. Delorme’s can be wrong (the Michigan one at least).  They don’t show all the dirt roads and there are some *roads* on that map that are just dirt trails.  Some of the names of the roads change as they cross county lines or highways and this is not always clearly marked on the map.  Also, the green color on the Delorme is supposed to represent public land but the detail is not fine enough to show you that on many of these streams there are in fact houses along the river.  I don’t mind too much though, the exploration part is just part of the fun of fishing.   BTW, I like Ken’s hat – got a Kangol just like it, earflaps and all. Mu

Response:

<great report snipped Nice Report Ken.  You reminded me of the first time on the San Juan last November.  I left my wading shoes in the car after my first day fishing, got down to the river the next morning and they were frozen solid. bc. — Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -Benjamin Franklin

Response:

A great day of fishing. The Muskegon River is a beautiful piece of water. It supports a spawning population of steelhead and Chinook salmon. It’s not really a trout stream, though. All the trout are stockers and they don’t get any natural reproduction. I believe there are places where you can find resident trout.  I was speaking with a guy last night who has been fishing the Muskegon on and off for the last three weeks.  He said he caught several browns and rainbows in the 16" – 19". …

That’s right. Residents aka holdovers. I caught a nice 12" rainbow, he didn’t put up much of a fight against a 7wt. Those 6-8 inchers will be 12-14 inchers by fall and there are holdovers that make it through the winter. When I say it’s not a trout stream I mean that trout do not reproduce in the stream, they are all stocked. The spawning population of steelies and salmon head out to Lake Michigan after their sexual escapades in the Muskegon and return year after year to spawn. Their offspring do the same. While some would claim they’re not "wild" because they were stocked in the first place they are "natural" in my book. Unlike the trout. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Why can’t the rainbows spawn if the steelhead and salmon can? Are they outcompeted by the bigger fish?

Good question. I don’t know. I’m not familiar with the Muskegon at all and don’t know much about it. BTW, the salmon don’t return year after year. They die. I think I’ve heard of experiments with Atlantics in the Great Lakes, but the vast majority are Pacific salmon.

That’s right, the salmon that spawn in the Muskegon are Chinooks. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Ken Have they ever tried Cutts in these rivers? Dave

Response:

Have they ever tried Cutts in these rivers?

Don’t know, David. I’m more familiar with Wisconsin DNR than Michigan. So far as I know, Wisconsin has not. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

That’s right. Residents aka holdovers. I caught a nice 12" rainbow, he didn’t put up much of a fight against a 7wt. Those 6-8 inchers will be 12-14 inchers by fall and there are holdovers that make it through the winter. When I say it’s not a trout stream I mean that trout do not reproduce in the stream, they are all stocked.

My guess is that it has nothing to do with water quality but other factors such as: available spawning space (competition from the big guys), fishing pressure, low survivability of the stockers (poor genetics?), and perhaps seasonal factors that affect residents but not migratories. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Unlike the trout. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The truth ain’t always ugly.  Nice pics, whoever took them – both you and Ken did a good job of that. Delorme’s can be wrong (the Michigan one at least).  They don’t show all the dirt roads and there are some *roads* on that map that are just dirt trails.  Some of the names of the roads change as they cross county lines or highways and this is not always clearly marked on the map.  Also, the green color on the Delorme is supposed to represent public land but the detail is not fine enough to show you that on many of these streams there are in fact houses along the river.  I don’t mind too much though, the exploration part is just part of the fun of fishing.   BTW, I like Ken’s hat – got a Kangol just like it, earflaps and all. Mu

I was just being an ass.  The Delorme showed a Pettit road that lead straight to Croton.  It was a goat track and it ended at some power lines where trees and stumps had been dragged across the right-of-way. One would guess from the Delorme that it was a decent road.  Ken was right, the Delorme was wrong. Peter

Response:

Great trip report guys.   Thanks for the smiles. Joe F.

Response:

Anyway, enough of the Entertainment Tonight segment of the trip.  The real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html

Nice report and pictures, but it didn’t seem to be raining so are you sure that was really Fortenberry in the festive chapeau? — Charlie…

Response:

……I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages.

I’ll open the bidding at 5 bucks.

Response:

……I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages. I’ll open the bidding at 5 bucks.

i’ll see that 5 and raise, a hush falls over the table, hee-hee-hee…. a bottle of wild turkey for maine clave — Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com http://auctions.yahoo.com/booth/ezflyfish_com Used, Rare, & Out-of-Print Books: http://www.crosswinds.net/~brbg/books/brbg-2.html

Response:

Good report.  Nice to see pictures on your site. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter is the one on the right with the teeny weeny bright hen and I’m the one on the left with the huge brawny buck. [a somewhat accurate story snipped] — Ken Fortenberry Teeny weeny hen my ass.  Just to set the record straight, I caught the hens, Ken caught the bucks.  Not trying to imply something here, but I’m starting question his "orientation" if you know what I mean.  (Say no more.   Say no more.  Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink)  Any way, if he keeps up with those exaggerations, I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages. Anyway, enough of the Entertainment Tonight segment of the trip.  The real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Marvellous report, great pictures too. I really enjoyed that.  Thanks TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

Holy macaroni! Who the hell are the two "dudes" in the pictures with the guide?

The good looking "dude" is me.  I’m the one with the rod.  The fish is the thing with fins.  The guide is holding the thing with fins. Notice I made Ken’s fish picture big and my fish picture small.  Am I a great person or what, eh? Where the heck did Ken get that hat??

He loves it – and I had to put up with all of the sniggers from the bait fishermen. And what’s this – Ken fishing for stockers?!?

with a gusto, I might add That’s it. The world is coming to an end. /daytripper (awe-palled…)

Naw, just a blip.  Now if he’d used spawn on the end of his T&T  . . . . Peter

Response:

Teeny weeny hen my ass.  Just to set the record straight, I caught the hens, Ken caught the bucks.  Not trying to imply something here, but I’m starting question his "orientation" if you know what I mean.  (Say no more.   Say no more.  Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink)  Any way, if he keeps up with those exaggerations, I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages. Anyway, enough of the Entertainment Tonight segment of the trip.  The real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html

Holy macaroni! Who the hell are the two "dudes" in the pictures with the guide? Where the heck did Ken get that hat?? And what’s this – Ken fishing for stockers?!? That’s it. The world is coming to an end. /daytripper (awe-palled…)

Response:

Nice report. Thanks, almost like being there, especially the bloody freezing feet ! TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

Peter is the one on the right with the teeny weeny bright hen and I’m the one on the left with the huge brawny buck.

[a somewhat accurate story snipped] — Ken Fortenberry

Teeny weeny hen my ass.  Just to set the record straight, I caught the hens, Ken caught the bucks.  Not trying to imply something here, but I’m starting question his "orientation" if you know what I mean.  (Say no more.   Say no more.  Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink)  Any way, if he keeps up with those exaggerations, I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages. Anyway, enough of the Entertainment Tonight segment of the trip.  The real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

… Where the heck did Ken get that hat??

Hey, that’s a great hat, fleece, Goretex AND ear flaps,…ahhh, ear flaps. Peter made fun of it too, can you imagine, and him looking like the Unabomber in that hood. And what’s this – Ken fishing for stockers?!?

Yeah I know, it made the guide happy. I considered it part of his tip. Those fish were put in the river the previous Thursday, all were 6-8 inches and dumber than dumb. The guide said if there’s anything in your fly box that you’d like to pull out at some point and say, "Can you believe I caught a fish on THAT.", now is the time to tie it on. They had six inches of snow the previous Friday and he said they were rising furiously to snow flakes. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

We picked the Muskegon River in Michigan because it’s roughly equidistant between my home in Urbana, IL and Peter Charles’ home in Burlington, Ontario. As fishing season 2000 started to unfold and dates started firming up, it was starting to look like Peter and I wouldn’t have a chance to wet a line together. I can’t make it to Maine ‘Clave, Peter can’t make it to Spring Fling so obviously we had to do something. It was basically put a finger on the map, let’s fish there. We hired a guide for Monday and met at the motel late morning on Sunday. I had my canoe and the plan was to buy licenses and familiarize ourselves with the area before the guided trip the next day. While buying the licenses I discovered a couple of things. First, if you catch a female steelhead early in the day, just gut her on the spot and you’ve got bait for the rest of the day. This from the very friendly bait guys at the Trading Post. I said, "Yeah, thanks. What a great idea." They did give us some very helpful advice on access points and I genuinely like talking to those guys even if I never would gut a hen on the spot. Second, Peter lies about his weight when buying a fishing license. We had a pleasant canoe trip from Croton Dam to the Thornapple Ave. access. Very crowded on a Sunday afternoon and we canoed more than we fished. We did see plenty of steelhead, though. Rather, Peter saw plenty of steelhead, I had left my polarized glasses in the car. Monday morning was cold. My wading shoes were wet from the day before and they turned into ice cubes while sitting in the drift boat. Hard for me to be comfy with cold feet and my feet were encased in ice for the first hour of the trip. We anchored the boat at a place the guides call "The Carnival", an eighth of a mile stretch of riffles and pools about a mile below Croton Dam. They call it "The Carnival" because during steelhead season it is packed with anglers. On a Monday morning, it was relatively uncrowded. "Relatively" being the key word. I got the first couple of hookups but botched them badly. Broke off the fish almost immediately. Peter landed the first steelie after a couple of his own botched hookups. I quickly followed and caught the same buck that had broken me off earlier, so was able to retrieve BOTH of my #14 black stonefly nymphs. We moved down a ways, spotted some fish, anchored and then waded into position. Peter was on almost immediately, our guide looked downstream, looked at the hole where he’d positioned me and said "Here’s our chance for a double." The guide waded down to net Peter’s fish and before he got into position I was on to a fish. The double. Guides love ‘em, and it makes for a great photo op. The first fish took me into the backing but this one seemed content to just sit in a hole and DEFY me. I watched the action downstream as Peter and the guide did the intricate netting dance and then I yelled down to Peter, "Here’s our double !" I worked down to get my fish next to the net so the guide could net both, one right after the other. He did, we got a quick photo, and Peter will post it on his site soon. Peter is the one on the right with the teeny weeny bright hen and I’m the one on the left with the huge brawny buck. I don’t know what Peter was using, I caught that one a Hex nymph. A great day of fishing. The Muskegon River is a beautiful piece of water. It supports a spawning population of steelhead and Chinook salmon. It’s not really a trout stream, though. All the trout are stockers and they don’t get any natural reproduction. Our guide was very good. I have only mentioned one guide in this forum as someone I recommend. That was Robin Cunningham of Gallatin Gateway, Montana. Today, I recommend the second. Dustan Harley of Ripple Guide Service. http://www.rippleguideservice.com/ Dustan had us on the water for nearly 11 hours and was at his most impressive when he stopped the boat, and said "Get out your 4 wts." It was the PERFECT interlude. We tossed stimulators and griffiths gnats to rising stockers. After chucking lead for most of the day with 7 wts, it was a real joy to actually flyfish with a dry fly. We caught dumb little 8" fish and it was a hoot. Dustan will be in Livingston, Montana during Western ‘Clave. He’s a good guy to go fishin’ with. I do question his taste in beer, after the trip when offered a Sleeman’s or a Budweiser, he chose the Sleeman’s. Hey, I said he was a good guide, I won’t vouch for his taste in beer. After that long day in the wind and the cold you might expect a couple of old farts to just go back to motel room, drink a beer in their underwear and go immediately to sleep. Peter and I partied till the wee hours, drank a half a fifth of Wild Turkey, and had to shoo off the dancing girls at daylight. That’s our story and we’re sticking to it. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Question:

Why the bimini twist?

…cuz the foxtrot looks dorky? -wf

Response:

If you aren’t worried about records, forget the bimini and fish a good tapered leader.  The bimini is a way to fish for big fish, like tarpon with a light tippit. If you are willing to fish a little heavier leader forget the bimini.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve only fished in the salt a few times but finally broke down and bought Lefty Kreh’s book on the subject.  My question is what use is the Bimini Twist?  I understand that if you are trying for a world record then you need great 100 per cent strength knots to tie in your 1 foot of "tippet class". I’m not really interested in that and I suspect the vast majority of salt water fisherman arent either…why not just tie your bite tippet on  with a surgeons knot or something? Sorry for this off topic question……now back to the Gink Wars. jorge — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on practically anything ™.

Response:

Good choice in books … My S/W Flyfishing Bible, I call it. As I understand it ( and have somewhat tested) the Bimini is the strongest knot to use "if tied properly!  I personally am a strong proponent of the "spider hitch" It is easier, smaller, and faster to tie, and I now can tee it in a few seconds…even in the dark.   I almost always use it to loop on tippet to leader on all sizes I use (5x to 20#) even in freshwater.  It supposedly is just as strong as a bimini except for shock load.  Since most of the time the rod / line absorbs the shocks it works great for me.  I have even done some testing and it usually takes a better bimini than I can tie to exceed the breaking strength of one of my spiders.  I have also performed this test with a couple of professional S/W guides biminis (in up to 20# test) and usually their bimini fails first. (or of course the unknotted line in the middle. If you want to give it a try I think the knot is listed in Lefty’s book. Usually they show this knot being tied using a finger or thumb as the "guide" to wrap around. I have had better luck using a small object like a toothpick or hemostats.  After some practice it can easily be tied with no tools by looping the line "between" the thumb and forefinger with no tools. Like the bimini this knot’s real purpose it to double the line and use the loop lines to tie another knot to something… or to make a doubled loop.  I use a lot of loops and normally just make the spiders loop, combine the lines, and tie a surgeons loop close to the spider.  This can result in a small loop of double line. (or as large as you need)  For your shock leader or bite tippet this give you a doubled line of class tippet to tie the knot with. The knot tied with the doubled line is almost always stronger than the spider, bimini, or the single class tippet.  I find the issue of attaching wire, 40# or 100# mono to any doubled 12-16 lb connection more prone to failure and problems than the class termination knot. So far I Never lost a fish due to a spider breaking. (Although I have lost lots of fish due to the line breaking between the knots (where it’s supposed to) just poor dumb bad luck….  I have lost a number of fish due to bimini knot failure. If you go with the bimini in the 20# & under size I highly recommend using pliobond or something on the final hitches.  I have seen way too many bimini’s start coming apart while fishing if they are not glued.  I even saw this once on a friends backing to flyline connection where he had used a bimini.  The really sad part is that a number of us were taught to tie our best binini’s by Stu Apte … So I guess we can’t blame the teacher!  I recall reading somewhere that it only took a few years to "perfect" a bimini and ony a couple more to perfect it on a rocking boat out in the middle of the ocean.  Maybe they were right. The real test is to always break a lot of line and knots until you are confident they as strong as the line. (or at least as strong a YOU can tie them)  I make leaders from clear Ande and use Ande tournament class line. This stuff comes in 1/4 lb spools, so I have a lot to waste. I just tie up the knots on each end to end up about 3′ outside the loops and then use a couple of chunks of cut off broom handles to hold on to and break the knots. I stand on the stick with the loop over it on one end and pull with my hands at the other until it breaks.  Just make sure you have safety glasses  on and don’t touch the line itself.  16# and up is quite violent when it breaks and can give you a nasty cut if it gets near you hands. (ah the voice of experience)  This isn’t real scientific but really help you determine the best knots that you can tie. Good luck in the salt!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve only fished in the salt a few times but finally broke down and bought Lefty Kreh’s book on the subject.  My question is what use is the Bimini Twist?  I understand that if you are trying for a world record then you need great 100 per cent strength knots to tie in your 1 foot of "tippet class". I’m not really interested in that and I suspect the vast majority of salt water fisherman arent either…why not just tie your bite tippet on  with a surgeons knot or something? Sorry for this off topic question……now back to the Gink Wars. jorge — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on practically anything ™.

Response:

Thanks so much for the advice over the bimini twist. (George and RJ). I will indeed practice a bit with the spider hitch and see if I can master that. I was fishing in the backcountry on my last trip to Latin America for snook and baby tarpon…..the fish were completely non leader tippet shy so I thought well in order not to lose’em in the mangroves and make sure I can horse’em, I’ll tie like 20 pound test on for a tippet.  I was having a ball catching 10 pound baby tarpon and small snook (and replacing the tippet every 3 or 4 fish cause the tarpon were sawing it up pretty good). However I hooked a big snook….the boat driver said "Its a big snook, Jorge….don’t let him get in the mangrove"…..the rod was an 8 weight Scott…..it was bent double and then broke a foot above the handle.   What did I do wrong there?  Is an 8 weight too lite for the backcountry?  Should I only use 10 pound tippets and depend on breaking off rather than stressing the rod too much?   It was a big snook….the boat was being pulled sideways into the mangrove and I’ll did was just hold on (in panic!). I appreciate the help you guys are giving to this beginner in the salt. Jorge — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on practically anything ™.

Response:

Most likely you dinged the rod at some time and it was weak there.  If it is a top of the line rod you can probably get it replaced.  You can also have a problem if you grab the rod above the handle cause you can change where the rod is stressed.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks so much for the advice over the bimini twist. (George and RJ). I will indeed practice a bit with the spider hitch and see if I can master that. I was fishing in the backcountry on my last trip to Latin America for snook and baby tarpon…..the fish were completely non leader tippet shy so I thought well in order not to lose’em in the mangroves and make sure I can horse’em, I’ll tie like 20 pound test on for a tippet.  I was having a ball catching 10 pound baby tarpon and small snook (and replacing the tippet every 3 or 4 fish cause the tarpon were sawing it up pretty good). However I hooked a big snook….the boat driver said "Its a big snook, Jorge….don’t let him get in the mangrove"…..the rod was an 8 weight Scott…..it was bent double and then broke a foot above the handle. What did I do wrong there?  Is an 8 weight too lite for the backcountry?  Should I only use 10 pound tippets and depend on breaking off rather than stressing the rod too much?   It was a big snook….the boat was being pulled sideways into the mangrove and I’ll did was just hold on (in panic!). I appreciate the help you guys are giving to this beginner in the salt. Jorge — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on practically anything ™.

Response:

Sounds like you were using the same guide I used…. Except when he tried to tell my buddy repeatedly in excited broken  English (the fish) GO IN MANGROVE! GO IN MANGROVE!  My buddy stepped out of the boat and sank to his shoulders in the silt….. But that’s a whole different story. We were in Cancun earlier this year and used 8 & 9 wt rods on the baby (4′ ) tarpon we found there & didn’t have any rod strength problems. I was using Sage Rplx’s and my buddy was using the Orvis and Fenwick HMG’s…  The tarpon action was hot and we ended up using straight 40# leaders when the all the premade tippets ran out….and still managed to break off a fair number of fish! (the folks at Sage are probably cringing if they read this! Sorry to have to tell you but your story sounds like operator error.  Strong saltwater fish need to fought with the butt of the rod not the tip.  You are risking it if you bend the rod beyond 90

Question:

I caught a 12# Carp last summer using 3 nightcrawlers on a size 1/0 hook.

Response:

the Biggest Carp I ever caught was a 20Lber on the Fox River in Illinois, On a nightcrawler. I caught a 12# Carp last summer using 3 nightcrawlers on a size 1/0 hook.

– Mike….. All women want me, And All fish fear me!

Response:

one thing I liked most about useing strawberry pop and wheaties doughball

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the Biggest Carp I ever caught was a 20Lber on the Fox River in Illinois, On a nightcrawler. I caught a 12# Carp last summer using 3 nightcrawlers on a size 1/0 hook. — Mike….. All women want me, And All fish fear me!

Response:

There are many state records, other documented catches (such as the In-Fisherman Master Angler Contest) and "surprised" bass anglers that catch the largest lunker carp on minnow, crawfish and other swimming "critter" lures.  There seems to be a trend that many of the biggest of the big carp rely more on a meat diet to support themselves. By biggest of the big I’m talking carp in the 30-50 lb range. Pat Kelly – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have always had good luck for carp with night crawlers and doughball. My doughball consists of cornmeal, flour, strawberry extract, and strawberry jello mix to help hold it all together.  Mix them all up in a bowl, roll them into baseball size balls, wrap them in foil, and put in the fridge to allow the jello to set.  Then, take them fishing and pinch small pieces from the ball as you need them for bait. What size carp do you catch with nightcrawlers?  I have never caught anything but juveniles with worms.  The adults seem to be total vegetarians, in my experience. —  << << << << << << << <<  << << << << << << << <<

Response:

Hi, I am a beginner in fishing and I was wondering if bread is a good bait for catching carp?What would be the best way to put bread on a hook so it wont fall off?Whats would be the best size hook to use? thanks

Hi Tony, I grew up on the banks of the Sacramento River just south of Sacramento. My brothers and I made our own dough with flower from the kitchen. You add water to wheat flower and mix it by hand in a bowl untill it is about like ‘Play Dough’. We added anything for smell, like bacon grease or vinegar. Then we took some snelled hooks and rolled the dough on the hooks about the size of marble or grape. We let them dry in the sun so they would not come off too easily. We caught some big carp with those dough balls. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop www.kiene.com

Response:

hey if you are or like fishing for carp, roll bread in a corn bread mix and make dough ball, use size 4 or 2  hooks

Response:

Hi, I am a beginner in fishing and I was wondering if bread is a good bait for catching carp?What would be the best way to put bread on a hook so it wont fall off?Whats would be the best size hook to use? thanks

Response:

Try using corn instead.

Response:

Hey Tony…40 years ago when I first started fishing, carp was just a fun fish but it wasn’t fun unless you caught some. Always learning from the older people, the ones that fished for carp where I was used doughballs, made from Wheaties and Strawberry Pop…crunch the wheaties up in your hand, and pour some pop on them, mix it altogether in your hand to make a thick ball, or roll in your hand till you have something like a cigar. Using small treble hooks, you pinch a piece off and round it up on the hook. They love it.  Of course wheaties was only $0.39 and pop was a nickle back then,,but the carp hasn’t changed. Just like Bass still like worms and minows. Good luck. Pat

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I am a beginner in fishing and I was wondering if bread is a good bait for catching carp?What would be the best way to put bread on a hook so it wont fall off?Whats would be the best size hook to use? thanks

Response:

I have always had good luck for carp with night crawlers and doughball. My doughball consists of cornmeal, flour, strawberry extract, and strawberry jello mix to help hold it all together.  Mix them all up in a bowl, roll them into baseball size balls, wrap them in foil, and put in the fridge to allow the jello to set.  Then, take them fishing and pinch small pieces from the ball as you need them for bait. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I am a beginner in fishing and I was wondering if bread is a good bait for catching carp?What would be the best way to put bread on a hook so it wont fall off?Whats would be the best size hook to use? thanks

Response:

Hay Tony!! Your getting some darned good advise on bait…However, Dick says tell him to fish where the carp are smoking up the bottem,,not where they are laying out there and you can see them..

Response:

I have always had good luck for carp with night crawlers and doughball. My doughball consists of cornmeal, flour, strawberry extract, and strawberry jello mix to help hold it all together.  Mix them all up in a bowl, roll them into baseball size balls, wrap them in foil, and put in the fridge to allow the jello to set.  Then, take them fishing and pinch small pieces from the ball as you need them for bait.

What size carp do you catch with nightcrawlers?  I have never caught anything but juveniles with worms.  The adults seem to be total vegetarians, in my experience. —  << << << << << << << <<  << << << << << << << <<

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Question:

: I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you                        <clip<clip<clip : has since been taken over by animal "rights" types. : For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm : "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of : 1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington : state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each : campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional : stewardship of state wildlife managers. : Americans for Medical Progress, the key national research advocacy group : that monitors the animal rights agenda, predicted the HSUS ballot          <clip<clip<clip : and laboratory animal issues and other issues that are appropriate" in the : future."… There was an initiative here in Michigan this last election dealing with the taking of bear over bait or with hounds.  The initiative would have banned both practices. When I found out what was  behind this initiative, it became clear to me it was nothing more than an anti-hunting measure.  The person behind getting it on the ballot claimed it would help bear hunting because it would license more hunters to get the same harvest.  Well, it would also have banned bear hunting during anytime in which baiting for any other specie was allowed. Since we have a deer season that runs from October first to the end of of December, there wouldn’t really be any time to have a bear season. There were a couple of other issues that indicated to me that this whole thing was vacant of anything substantive and was just an anti-hunting measure. Fortunately, it was defeated *SOUNDLY* and another measure passed that gives wildlife management to the professionals. PETA and apparently HSUS supported the initiative. Kind regards, Steve Kernosky Michigan Tech University

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My decision not to hunt is based solely on the fact that it doesn’t really appeal to me.  I don’t view hunting as any worse or better than fishing which I love.  I voted in favor of this initiative just as I would vote to prohibit snagging of fish if it weren’t already illegal.

In my view of the universe, the achilles heel of this legislation is in the fact that it takes "wildlife management" out of the hands of the professionals (ie. Departments of Fish and Game/Wildlife [admittedly an arguable statement, but certainly not improved upon by asking Joe/ Jane-weaned-on-Disney-Classics to take up this responsibility]).  Why do we believe that Fish and Game managers allow detrimental (some would claim "cruel’) practices to continue despite convincing evidence "that even a layman can understand"?  Could it be that the issue is more complex than we appreciate?  Let the wildlife management community do their job.  We should be able to make input into the decision making process.  But, let’s not take the decision making out of the hands of the trained professionals until they give us cause. Clearly, with 27 ballot initiatives on the Oregon ballet this year, the initiative process is being abused.  I always ask myself– "Is this a matter that requires a change to the state constitution, with all the attendant costs, to address the issue?"   The answer is usually, "No". I guess it goes back to the thread about big government vs. individual responsibility.  But, in reverse!  Now were talking about big government (ie. the voting owners of the government) trying to dictate how the little wildlife management community (probably a government agency working with state schools) carries out its responsibilities. Life is weird when you’re left-handed! Charley

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First of all, I actually read the initiative.  Unfortunately I don’t have a copy here in front of me, so this is from memory.  One of the local papers had an editorial slamming the initiative because it didn’t "Outlaw" the practices, just made them illegal for common folk. The text of the initiative stated (not a quote, but the gist) that Wildlife agents or their assigns could use bait or hounds to hunt down and kill problem bears.  Read "bears that are annoying people".  Sort of gives the lie to the idea that the practices are just tooooo barbaric and unfair. It stated that bait could be used to attract bears for "research purposes," whatever that means.  (But I thought that we didn’t want the bears to get used to people feeding them…) Anyone who has ever hunted bear in Western Washington brush knows that the traditional method of controlling bear numbers (sport hunting) just went out the window.  Incidental kills simply will not keep pace with population growth.  Ain’t no way you’re going to be able to target an area and reduce the bear population without resorting to bait and/or hounds. Well, maybe poisoned poodles……no wait, that’s bait…… Of course we could mount a multimillion dollar campaign to supply the bruins with condoms. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK.  I’ve no clue why, but I’ll take the bait.  The initiative made it illegal to take bears using bait and/or hounds. Would you care to tell us where in the hell "Govt. agents", "researchers", and "AR Activists" are using bait and/or hounds to kill bears?  Further, if you can actually cite a real and documented example, then tell us when and why it happened. -tgades

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For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  

In Colorado, we can no longer hunt spring bears, unless they’re gay. TimW (Stolen from a cartoon which lampooned the Amendment 2 passing the popular vote)

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     < snip "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of 1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts.

Hi Jim, The Washington State initiative is the only one I know about.  It only prohibits bear baiting and hound hunting for cougars.  I don’t hunt but "some of my best friends . . .".  Many hunters supported the initiative but the anti crowd used wild and false statements (along the lines of "they wanna take away your right to hunt, they wanna take away your way of life") in their attempt to defeat the initiative.  Fortunately, the public saw through their BS and passed it. My decision not to hunt is based solely on the fact that it doesn’t really appeal to me.  I don’t view hunting as any worse or better than fishing which I love.  I voted in favor of this initiative just as I would vote to prohibit snagging of fish if it weren’t already illegal. August Kristoferson Watercolor Fish Art http://www.eskimo.com/~augustk

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: alt.fishing,rec.outdoors.fishing,rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    Organization: AM Construction   In fact, the initiative did not outlaw baiting or hound hunting for   bear.  It just made it illegal for sport hunters to use these   techniques.  It’s perfectly OK for govt. employees and "researchers" and   presumably AR activists to use bait to attract bears.     Govt. agents are still allowed to use bait and hounds to kill bears.     Seems like it’s only cruel and barbaric to use hounds or bait if you do   it for sport, and it generates revenues.   Steve

OK.  I’ve no clue why, but I’ll take the bait.  The initiative made it illegal to take bears using bait and/or hounds.   Would you care to tell us where in the hell "Govt. agents", "researchers", and "AR Activists" are using bait and/or hounds to kill bears?  Further, if you can actually cite a real and documented example, then tell us when and why it happened. -tgades

Response:

For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations. In Colorado, we can no longer hunt spring bears, unless they’re gay. TimW (Stolen from a cartoon which lampooned the Amendment 2 passing the popular vote)

And don’t get caught with a trap. I hear that the next election, they are going after using hooks on fish. Paul

Response:

In fact, the initiative did not outlaw baiting or hound hunting for bear.  It just made it illegal for sport hunters to use these techniques.  It’s perfectly OK for govt. employees and "researchers" and presumably AR activists to use bait to attract bears.   Govt. agents are still allowed to use bait and hounds to kill bears.   Seems like it’s only cruel and barbaric to use hounds or bait if you do it for sport, and it generates revenues. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you   might find interesting. BTW, HSUS is an acronym for the Humane Society of   the United States. It used to be an animal welfare organization but it   has since been taken over by animal "rights" types.   For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm   "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of   1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington   state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each   campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional   stewardship of state wildlife managers. For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,         -tgades

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,       -tgades tgades, Where have you been? Any animal rights initiative is RADICAL! It’s a well-known fact among sportsmen that the ARA’s modus operandi is "divide and conquer". They attack minorities (bear-baiters, Salmon snaggers) within the hunting and fishing sports, hoping that other hunters/fishers won’t care because it’s not "their" type of hunting/fishing. Attitudes like yours ensure that the ARA’s tactics work! Todd

The other method they use is to create paranoia through undercover fanatical defenders of the insane under the guise of "I’m just sticking up for the minorities no matter how ludicress it sounds". Scully and Mulder will expose your devious plot.  You don’t fool me! Mike

Response:

For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,    -tgades

tgades, Where have you been? Any animal rights initiative is RADICAL! It’s a well-known fact among sportsmen that the ARA’s modus operandi is "divide and conquer". They attack minorities (bear-baiters, Salmon snaggers) within the hunting and fishing sports, hoping that other hunters/fishers won’t care because it’s not "their" type of hunting/fishing. Attitudes like yours ensure that the ARA’s tactics work! Todd

Response:

  I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you   might find interesting. BTW, HSUS is an acronym for the Humane Society of   the United States. It used to be an animal welfare organization but it   has since been taken over by animal "rights" types.   For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm   "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of   1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington   state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each   campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional   stewardship of state wildlife managers.

For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,         -tgades

Response:

For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,    -tgades

You might want to re-read the the ballot question carefully. Question 1 in Massachusetts was advertised to outlaw the use of spring traps in the state. At the End of the lengthy ballot question it also read that the laws are to be changed to allow non sportsman(AKA ARA’s) to serve on the board that governs hunting and fishing in this state. Unfortunatly all the TV ads showed thirty year old footage of animals including household pets caught in the traps with no mention of the second part of the question and question 1 passed by a 3-2 margin. Hopefully this can be changed before the ARA’s take over the board and try to ban hunting and fishing in this state.(Don’t think it can’t happen!!)

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Question:

I will be in the Utica NY area later this week and was wondering if anyone had any info on the local streams.  My time is limited while I’m there so I’m looking for easy stream access and decent fishing in a single area.  Thanks for the help. Trip — 14 Mamaroneck Ave                                phone: 914/948-6200 x7515 White Plains, NY 10601                           fax:   914/948-6270

Response:

Richard, without a doubt you will want to make a visit to the West Canada about 30 min from Utica. Rte.12 north to the Rte.8 (Poland) exit to Rte. 28, make a left on Rte.28. Go a few miles to a parking area on the right. Fish up or downstream of the bridge. Although most major hatches are over you may encounter sporadic cream variant (prior to dark) and definitely caddis (#14 tan, #18 black). There are always plenty of caddis and plenty of fish (browns). Water conditions have been excellent. Good luck and let me know how you make out.

Response:

The West Canda Creek, 15 minutes north of Utica is a blue-ribbon trout stream with a section of "artificials-only". Its a fabulous trout stream, as good as anything isn the east, but not well known outside of the Utica area. I learned to fish on the WCC when I was about 8(40 yrs ago) and spent many a summer day there with my grandfather. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly I will be in the Utica NY area later this week and was wondering if anyone had any info on the local streams.  My time is limited while I’m there so I’m looking for easy stream access and decent fishing in a single area.  Thanks for the help. Trip — **** System Management ARTS                               email:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -14 Mamaroneck Ave                            phone: 914/948-6200 x7515 White Plains, NY 10601                               fax:   914/948-6270

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Question:

For those that have written the group and me personally asking about water conditions I send this updated report (by the way, I don’t mind in the least getting the queries). Got three trout today with a completely new method of dry fly fishing. There I was standing  (or at least trying to) in four feet of water on a sand bar that, to my certain knowledge, has been dry, year round, for at least the last six years. The creek is small but at times has produced the occasional 18 inch brown some smaller rainbows and the occasional cut throat or two. This new method consists of casting a dry up stream. letting it hit the water and race back towards you in the current. The three fish I caught had broken their necks trying to get the fly as it went past them at somewhere around forty five mph. Their bodies were then recovered some one and a half miles down stream by an accomplice. Lolo Mt.

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Question:

Howdy to all brooky fishermen;  I’m heading to Algonquin park in the spring for some of those big river speckles.  I need some advice on the best time in the spring to go in regards to the best fishing, and the least black- flies.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Worst black fly and best brooky fly season are perfectly correlated.  (God knew you were coming.) — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Howdy to all brooky fishermen;  I’m heading to Algonquin park in the spring for some of those big river speckles.  I need some advice on the best time in the spring to go in regards to the best fishing, and the least black- flies.  Any help would be greatly appreciated. Chris Chris Lanthier    

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