Question:

George Gehrke: shithead. …seems a bit ungentlemanly…

Get it straight, George. I’m the fucking putz. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

…i hope to have a good granite chisel soon… i think it might be useful with some of my "signature" fly ties as well. jeff (chiseling out more mutants for the masses)

Somehow it seemed so difficult, all attempts just fizzled, this was mainly due it seems, to the fact that they were chiselled, he swore, he cursed, he begged and cried, at last he exclaimed "Dammnit!", how can you get proportions right, in such little bits of granite?". He sweated, learned, and tried again, until he knew some tricks, but no matter what he tried to do, his dry-flies sank like bricks, he tied flies for trout, and bass and pike, and even some for bream, and though he did his level best, results remained a dream.. Years went by, and then at last, enlightenment slowly dawned, frustrating hours and days of work, a new idea then spawned, he tied a whole new series up, and then he went a swapping, all now agreed his perfect flies, were beautiful, simply topping. Time came then at last for him, to pass on the gentle art, this time comes at last you see, to every poor old fart, his pupils marvelled at his skill, his flies even caught bones, how he managed this you ask?  He stuck to chiselling stones! TL MC

Response:

George Gehrke: shithead.

…seems a bit ungentlemanly… jeff

Response:

George Gehrke: shithead. …seems a bit ungentlemanly…

Yeah, but it would make a good epitaph for him just as written. <g — Charlie…

Response:

…i hope to have a good granite chisel soon… i think it might be useful with some of my "signature" fly ties as well. jeff (chiseling out more mutants for the masses) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George Gehrke: shithead. …seems a bit ungentlemanly… Yeah, but it would make a good epitaph for him just as written. <g — Charlie…

Response:

I happen to think of another answer to your concerns David.  You’re just going to have to take me the way I am.  Someday, you’re going to miss me baby and all this originality and talent!  You’ll be laughing all the way to the river of no return. George Roff & Company "the gang’s all here!" (why fix something when it isn’t broke?) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George, I say this with true concern – no hate or disgust:  Get some professional help, not with your writing, but with your head. Dave

Response:

David,  trust me.  There is nothing wrong with my head, just too much on my plate.  I have enough E-mail proving how incorrect  your concern is, but I know you to be sincere. Stay loose and don’t sweat the details David.  Roff has too many editors and not enough good writers.  Can you help by contributing something? George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George, I say this with true concern – no hate or disgust:  Get some professional help, not with your writing, but with your head. Dave

Response:

George, I say this with true concern – no hate or disgust:  Get some professional help, not with your writing, but with your head. Dave

Response:

Mike, I’ll keep this short and sweet.  You are a serious waste of my valuable time. No one in ROFF needs your kind of  criticisms.  You can’t take criticism yourself and you don’t know how to give advice in a constructive manner.   It must be your ethnic nature and educational back ground?  Therefore: there are no other reasons for me to have a civil conversation with you now or in the near future. By the way, I write just as well as you or anyone else,  given the time.  These seems to elude you entirely because there are many sportsmen (world wide) who disagree with your views and what you stand for.  You’re a competent fly tier. Why don’t you stick with what you do best?  (because you are politically inept, you lack social abilities and graces, besides being a total failure in "people skills")  Take night courses in these subjects then give it another go in  four years.  I cannot offer you better advice Mike. Take care.  End of conversation. George Gehrke "who isn’t interested in those who make personal attacks in public places"

Response:

Nobody gets paid for anything on ROFF. You are not Hemingway, and a number of people would be more than happy if you kept your gratuitous, barely comprehensible, and over-long ramblings, to yourself. Bullshit is bullshit, free or not.  In this case it is not free, it costs money to send tens of kilobytes of rubbish through the ether, some more some less, but it costs everybody money. I can accept that some things must be very bitter for you, this shines through in every post you make, like dim streetlamps glinting reluctantly from the oily whorls on  pools of sewage,  but that

Question:

7)  Why do geese have those white cheeks? Mr. G.

Why is it when geese make those long " Vs" to fly north and south each year one side of the "V" is longer than the other? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ans: There’s more geese on that   side.

Response:

Duh… Water would get in their buttholes otherwise…

That’s why salmon don’t use Japanese toilets, too… — Charlie…

Response:

Ari?  You’re question which is only a few words is like asking, "Why is an orange?"

Or, "you are question" — Gary (Email address is munged with x’s)

Response:

If I were a "smart" salmon I’d just stay in the ocean and grow to a gargantuan size. Unfortunately, I wouldn’t pass my "smart"" genes on to any more salmon.

Ya wouldn’t get any sex either Darin

Response:

Not all salmon do travel upstream. Chum salmon spawn in the lower reaches of the streams. Darin

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the urge to spawn upstream all about? Ari?  You’re question which is only a few words is like asking, "Why is an orange?" Do your really expect anyone here to give you the full biological aspects and possibilities on "Why Do Salmon Spawn Way Up Rivers?" There are a thousand reasons why and control mechanisms that determine not only the why of it but the who, where, when, and how of it. There are the following controlling and/or influencing aspects that can and do affect all mammals on this earth. 1)  The phases of the moon. 2)  The position of the earth around the sun which is a seasonal aspect 3)  Earth temperatures 4)  Length of the day that sunshine baths this planet in the hemispheres. 5)  Magnetic lines of incidence 6)  Magnetic declination 7)  Why do geese have those white cheeks?  Water temperatures 9)  Water scents and/or minerals that salmon smell and home in on. 10) Those god awful dams that used to NOT be there. 11) All those stinking chemicals man puts in water today salmon are expected to overcome. 12) Your toilet and your bowels and that it all goes down hill. 13) Clearcutting and over sedimentation of your stream beds. 14) The  lowering of the water tables that stop springs from bubbling UP in streams anymore where REDDS ‘used’ to be. 15) The long liners and Japanese fishing theives in you Gulf of Alaska and over fishing. 16) No natural, UNRESTRICTED fish ladders AROUND ALL dams. 17) Over commericial fishing. 18) Those greedy, Indian Gill Nets that choke all the rivers from the ocean so the big ones don’t get by. 19) This causes the weakening of the species becausze the strong genes are destroyed for money. 20) I hate you for asking this unresponsible question because it serves no purpose and you’re not going to do a thing about it. 21) I hope termites eat your house up. 22) The monkey barks at midnight. 23) The dog ate my homework. 24) Que sera sera. 25) Kay Ballard 26) Wanna buy some redhots? 27) Oompa loompa doompety do. Wolfgang more to come……betcha a shiny new nickel.    

28) The temperature inside the Little Brown Trucks 29) How much Gink could a Dumb Dink Drink if a Dumb Dink Could Drink Gink? 30) The Trilateral Commission /daytripper (Ha hah! Bet you didn’t see that last one coming

Response:

If I were a "smart" salmon I’d just stay in the ocean and grow to a gargantuan size. Unfortunately, I wouldn’t pass my "smart"" genes on to any more salmon. Ya wouldn’t get any sex either

So basically things would be the same for him if he were a salmon. <g — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

Response:

28) The temperature inside the Little Brown Trucks 29) How much Gink could a Dumb Dink Drink if a Dumb Dink Could Drink Gink? 30) The Trilateral Commission

31) They’re trying to smoke what is in Daytripper’s peace pipe. 32) They want to take away Wolfgang’s dictionary! 33) Waldo wading in the surf and so they ran to the rivers to get away from the smell! 34) They are trying to come and watch LaCourse play with his goat 35) They heard that RW would try and snag them on the redds and thought it was an urban legend so came anyways — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

Response:

If I were a "smart" salmon I’d just stay in the ocean and grow to a gargantuan size. Unfortunately, I wouldn’t pass my "smart"" genes on to any more salmon. Ya wouldn’t get any sex either So basically things would be the same for him if he were a salmon. <g

Well, maybe that, but look on the bright side. I wouldn’t be slowly dying in shallow water, being eaten alive by eagles and crows, and dogs wouldn’t be rolling in my stinking carcass. (BTW, we had a big salmon run this year and I’ve had to wash Arlo with tomato juice frequently.) When you get out to Stanley next time, Warren, there’s a fat chick I want to set you up with. Bring some hip boots if you have them, and I suspect you do, if you know what I mean.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the urge to spawn upstream all about? Ari?  You’re question which is only a few words is like asking, "Why is an orange?" Do your really expect anyone here to give you the full biological aspects and possibilities on "Why Do Salmon Spawn Way Up Rivers?" There are a thousand reasons why and control mechanisms that determine not only the why of it but the who, where, when, and how of it. There are the following controlling and/or influencing aspects that can and do affect all mammals on this earth. 1)  The phases of the moon. 2)  The position of the earth around the sun which is a seasonal aspect 3)  Earth temperatures 4)  Length of the day that sunshine baths this planet in the hemispheres. 5)  Magnetic lines of incidence 6)  Magnetic declination 7)  Why do geese have those white cheeks?  Water temperatures 9)  Water scents and/or minerals that salmon smell and home in on. 10) Those god awful dams that used to NOT be there. 11) All those stinking chemicals man puts in water today salmon are expected to overcome. 12) Your toilet and your bowels and that it all goes down hill. 13) Clearcutting and over sedimentation of your stream beds. 14) The  lowering of the water tables that stop springs from bubbling UP in streams anymore where REDDS ‘used’ to be. 15) The long liners and Japanese fishing theives in you Gulf of Alaska and over fishing. 16) No natural, UNRESTRICTED fish ladders AROUND ALL dams. 17) Over commericial fishing. 18) Those greedy, Indian Gill Nets that choke all the rivers from the ocean so the big ones don’t get by. 19) This causes the weakening of the species becausze the strong genes are destroyed for money. 20) I hate you for asking this unresponsible question because it serves no purpose and you’re not going to do a thing about it. 21) I hope termites eat your house up.

22) The monkey barks at midnight. 23) The dog ate my homework. 24) Que sera sera. 25) Kay Ballard 26) Wanna buy some redhots? 27) Oompa loompa doompety do. Wolfgang more to come……betcha a shiny new nickel.    

Response:

What is the urge to spawn upstream all about?

Ari?  You’re question which is only a few words is like asking, "Why is an orange?" Do your really expect anyone here to give you the full biological aspects and possibilities on "Why Do Salmon Spawn Way Up Rivers?" There are a thousand reasons why and control mechanisms that determine not only the why of it but the who, where, when, and how of it. There are the following controlling and/or influencing aspects that can and do affect all mammals on this earth. 1)  The phases of the moon. 2)  The position of the earth around the sun which is a seasonal aspect 3)  Earth temperatures 4)  Length of the day that sunshine baths this planet in the hemispheres. 5)  Magnetic lines of incidence 6)  Magnetic declination 7)  Why do geese have those white cheeks?  Water temperatures 9)  Water scents and/or minerals that salmon smell and home in on. 10) Those god awful dams that used to NOT be there. 11) All those stinking chemicals man puts in water today salmon are expected to overcome. 12) Your toilet and your bowels and that it all goes down hill. 13) Clearcutting and over sedimentation of your stream beds. 14) The  lowering of the water tables that stop springs from bubbling UP in streams anymore where REDDS ‘used’ to be. 15) The long liners and Japanese fishing theives in you Gulf of Alaska and over fishing. 16) No natural, UNRESTRICTED fish ladders AROUND ALL dams. 17) Over commericial fishing. 18) Those greedy, Indian Gill Nets that choke all the rivers from the ocean so the big ones don’t get by. 19) This causes the weakening of the species becausze the strong genes are destroyed for money. 20) I hate you for asking this unresponsible question because it serves no purpose and you’re not going to do a thing about it. 21) I hope termites eat your house up. Mr. G.

Response:

Duh… Water would get in their buttholes otherwise… — TBone

Response:

Fish head in all sorts of directions. * Anadromous – natal-rear/spawn in freshwater, adult-rear in sea – eg, salmon * Catadromous – natal-rear/spawn in sea, adult-rear in freshwater – eg, eels * Potadromous (aka Adfluvial) – natal-rear/spawn in headwater    streams, adult-rear in lakes – eg, bull trout, rainbow * Fluvial – natal-rear/spawn in headwater streams, adult-rear in mainstem    stream – eg, bull trout, rainbow, cutthroat * Resident – natal-rear/adult-rear/spawn in stream, no migration * Panadromous – natal-rear/adult-rear somewhere, caught and cooked in frying pan Thomas Gilg

Response:

I currently live in a fairly large city in a fairly flat area, yet I yearn to be back in my home of the mountains. The pull is great. I consider that instinct and love for my homeland. Drew

Response:

The other thing is that the Smolts must live in the river in their early stages. The further up the river they hatch the more mature and robust they should be when they hit the perils of the Ocean. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also flooding in such areas would be less severe and of shorter duration, possibly helping the redds stay in tact. Clark I would suspect that it has to do with better spawning habitat being found in the headwaters of salmon rivers. The gradient would usually be greater meaning better oxygenation, less siltation, better egg protecting substrate (gravel and cobble)  and cooler water temps. Just my opinion though. G.Cleveland What is the urge to spawn upstream all about? Zoologically speaking of course, allthough very obviously it’s to feed the bears of course – don’t you watch National Geographic? Jokes aside though, I recently discovered that we have our own upstream migration of Yellowfish every spring, even leaping over man made weirs and other natural structures. Surely the higher you go, the less water you will encounter. Also the further you have to swim downstream, the worse your chance of success, as chance of meeting predators or other dangers become. Also the further you have to swim upstream, the less chance you have of having enough energy to mate and spawn. Or is it a case of, the further you have to swim downstream, the more chance you will have of picking up food along the way and thus being better equipped to handle and survive the dangers of the final? destination. Or maybe a female will prefer a mate who is "fitter" than the rest and has proved that by making an more arduous journey? Does anybody out there know – we didn’t quite study salmon & trout ecology down in this part of the world, and I had never known about our own yellowfish habits until now. Ari Ari Bert Gaelle Bert +27 (0) 83 232 9903 +27 (0) 83 236 5308 Flyfishing Corner +27 (0) 11 447 7230 Shop 94, Admirals Court +27 (0) 11 882 8537 (fax) Cnr Craddock & Tyrwhitt www.troutfishing.co.za         Street, Rosebank P.O.Box 79067 Senderwood 2145 South Africa

Response:

It reminds me of my weekend Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why do you pay for dinner on a date? Salmon spawn in shallow, well-oxygenated, gravel-bottomed, flowing water. The farther upstream they go the more of it they find. As to "why" they do it, the salmon aren’t "thinking" about "why" they do it. They just do it. And then they die. It seems to work for them. If I were a "smart" salmon I’d just stay in the ocean and grow to a gargantuan size. Unfortunately, I wouldn’t pass my "smart"" genes on to any more salmon. The most remarkable thing about spawning salmon and steelhead, to me, is just how single-minded they are about spawning. It reminds me of my youth.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It also seems likely that there would be an evolutionary drive to get further upstream to reduce competition.  If you get further up than any of the other salmon, your offspring will have all the food in their neighborhood to themselves. Reasonable enough. Then too, the further upstream, the smaller the potential predators. Quite possibly less of them too. Only those in the river.   I’d be willing to bet one of your shiny nickels that the grizzlies, otters, & eagles are the same size upstream as down. Further (not farther), traveling upstream may expose the salmon to more predators than if he/she stayed put.

I wasn’t thinking of the mama and the papa salmon, but rather the itty bitty babies.  Neither and eagle nor a grizzly is going to get too excited over a quarter inch long fish.  Nor would I for that matter.     Wolfgang

Response:

Why do you pay for dinner on a date? Salmon spawn in shallow, well-oxygenated, gravel-bottomed, flowing water. The farther upstream they go the more of it they find. As to "why" they do it, the salmon aren’t "thinking" about "why" they do it. They just do it. And then they die. It seems to work for them. If I were a "smart" salmon I’d just stay in the ocean and grow to a gargantuan size. Unfortunately, I wouldn’t pass my "smart"" genes on to any more salmon. The most remarkable thing about spawning salmon and steelhead, to me, is just how single-minded they are about spawning. It reminds me of my youth.

Response:

It is a survival thing.  Salmon will try to occupy the whole river as a hedge against any particular part of the river having problems (drought, flood, predators etc).   It is similar to the Atlantic salmon’s strategy of returning at different times and the resultant offspring becoming spring (multi-seawinter) fish, grilse or summer/autumn (fall) fish. It is in order to maximise survival of the species.  Hope this helps. Martin. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the urge to spawn upstream all about? Zoologically speaking of course, allthough very obviously it’s to feed the bears of course – don’t you watch National Geographic? Jokes aside though, I recently discovered that we have our own upstream migration of Yellowfish every spring, even leaping over man made weirs and other natural structures. Surely the higher you go, the less water you will encounter. Also the further you have to swim downstream, the worse your chance of success, as chance of meeting predators or other dangers become. Also the further you have to swim upstream, the less chance you have of having enough energy to mate and spawn. Or is it a case of, the further you have to swim downstream, the more chance you will have of picking up food along the way and thus being better equipped to handle and survive the dangers of the final? destination. Or maybe a female will prefer a mate who is "fitter" than the rest and has proved that by making an more arduous journey? Does anybody out there know – we didn’t quite study salmon & trout ecology down in this part of the world, and I had never known about our own yellowfish habits until now. Ari Ari Bert     Gaelle Bert +27 (0) 83 232 9903    +27 (0) 83 236 5308 Flyfishing Corner +27 (0) 11 447 7230    Shop 94, Admirals Court +27 (0) 11 882 8537 (fax)   Cnr Craddock & Tyrwhitt www.troutfishing.co.za            Street, Rosebank P.O.Box 79067 Senderwood 2145 South Africa

Response:

Also flooding in such areas would be less severe and of shorter duration, possibly helping the redds stay in tact. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would suspect that it has to do with better spawning habitat being found in the headwaters of salmon rivers. The gradient would usually be greater meaning better oxygenation, less siltation, better egg protecting substrate (gravel and cobble)  and cooler water temps. Just my opinion though. G.Cleveland What is the urge to spawn upstream all about? Zoologically speaking of course, allthough very obviously it’s to feed the bears of course – don’t you watch National Geographic? Jokes aside though, I recently discovered that we have our own upstream migration of Yellowfish every spring, even leaping over man made weirs and other natural structures. Surely the higher you go, the less water you will encounter. Also the further you have to swim downstream, the worse your chance of success, as chance of meeting predators or other dangers become. Also the further you have to swim upstream, the less chance you have of having enough energy to mate and spawn. Or is it a case of, the further you have to swim downstream, the more chance you will have of picking up food along the way and thus being better equipped to handle and survive the dangers of the final? destination. Or maybe a female will prefer a mate who is "fitter" than the rest and has proved that by making an more arduous journey? Does anybody out there know – we didn’t quite study salmon & trout ecology down in this part of the world, and I had never known about our own yellowfish habits until now. Ari Ari Bert Gaelle Bert +27 (0) 83 232 9903 +27 (0) 83 236 5308 Flyfishing Corner +27 (0) 11 447 7230 Shop 94, Admirals Court +27 (0) 11 882 8537 (fax) Cnr Craddock & Tyrwhitt www.troutfishing.co.za         Street, Rosebank P.O.Box 79067 Senderwood 2145 South Africa

Response:

@news.worldonline.co.za: Because they’ve done all there is to do downstream Scott

Response:

I would suspect that it has to do with better spawning habitat being found in the headwaters of salmon rivers. The gradient would usually be greater meaning better oxygenation, less siltation, better egg protecting substrate (gravel and cobble)  and cooler water temps. Just my opinion though.

It also seems likely that there would be an evolutionary drive to get further upstream to reduce competition.  If you get further up than any of the other salmon, your offspring will have all the food in their neighborhood to themselves. Then too, the further upstream, the smaller the potential predators.  Quite possibly less of them too. Wolfgang

Response:

It also seems likely that there would be an evolutionary drive to get further upstream to reduce competition.  If you get further up than any of the other salmon, your offspring will have all the food in their neighborhood to themselves.

Reasonable enough. Then too, the further upstream, the smaller the potential predators. Quite possibly less of them too.

Only those in the river.   I’d be willing to bet one of your shiny nickels that the grizzlies, otters, & eagles are the same size upstream as down. Further (not farther), traveling upstream may expose the salmon to more predators than if he/she stayed put. IMHO, I have absolutely no idea *why* they do it, but I’d expect that the farther (not further) a fish makes it upstream would be directly proportional to its health & strength. Joe F.

Response:

I would suspect that it has to do with better spawning habitat being found in the headwaters of salmon rivers. The gradient would usually be greater meaning better oxygenation, less siltation, better egg protecting substrate (gravel and cobble)  and cooler water temps. Just my opinion though. G.Cleveland   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What is the urge to spawn upstream all about? Zoologically speaking of course, allthough very obviously it’s to feed the bears of course – don’t you watch National Geographic? Jokes aside though, I recently discovered that we have our own upstream migration of Yellowfish every spring, even leaping over man made weirs and other natural structures. Surely the higher you go, the less water you will encounter. Also the further you have to swim downstream, the worse your chance of success, as chance of meeting predators or other dangers become. Also the further you have to swim upstream, the less chance you have of having enough energy to mate and spawn. Or is it a case of, the further you have to swim downstream, the more chance you will have of picking up food along the way and thus being better equipped to handle and survive the dangers of the final? destination. Or maybe a female will prefer a mate who is "fitter" than the rest and has proved that by making an more arduous journey? Does anybody out there know – we didn’t quite study salmon & trout ecology down in this part of the world, and I had never known about our own yellowfish habits until now. Ari Ari Bert                                    Gaelle Bert +27 (0) 83 232 9903                         +27 (0) 83 236 5308 Flyfishing Corner +27 (0) 11 447 7230                         Shop 94, Admirals Court +27 (0) 11 882 8537 (fax)                   Cnr Craddock & Tyrwhitt www.troutfishing.co.za                            Street, Rosebank P.O.Box 79067 Senderwood 2145 South Africa

Response:

What is the urge to spawn upstream all about? Zoologically speaking of course, allthough very obviously it’s to feed the bears of course – don’t you watch National Geographic? Jokes aside though, I recently discovered that we have our own upstream migration of Yellowfish every spring, even leaping over man made weirs and other natural structures. Surely the higher you go, the less water you will encounter. Also the further you have to swim downstream, the worse your chance of success, as chance of meeting predators or other dangers become. Also the further you have to swim upstream, the less chance you have of having enough energy to mate and spawn. Or is it a case of, the further you have to swim downstream, the more chance you will have of picking up food along the way and thus being better equipped to handle and survive the dangers of the final? destination. Or maybe a female will prefer a mate who is "fitter" than the rest and has proved that by making an more arduous journey? Does anybody out there know – we didn’t quite study salmon & trout ecology down in this part of the world, and I had never known about our own yellowfish habits until now. Ari Ari Bert                                        Gaelle Bert +27 (0) 83 232 9903                             +27 (0) 83 236 5308 Flyfishing Corner +27 (0) 11 447 7230                             Shop 94, Admirals Court +27 (0) 11 882 8537 (fax)                       Cnr Craddock & Tyrwhitt www.troutfishing.co.za                                Street, Rosebank P.O.Box 79067 Senderwood 2145 South Africa

Response:

Question:

Tracey <rbranc…@mediaone.net> wrote in message

news:3A96A46C.45DF0E68@mediaone.net… > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it > >would cause marital problems. > If *both* are involved (and are devoted to it), it doesn’t seem > like it’s a cause of problems. > — > Tracey

My mistake…I suppose there could be occasions where this would not cause problems.  (shudders) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Indigo: What sailors do when they see a bar >                      —Funky Winkerbean—

Response:

Jadelee111512 <jadelee111…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20010223130358.05491.00000364@ng-co1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >From: "B and B" > >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! > >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! > >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not > >becoming one. > >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause > >marital problems. > >Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message > >news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… > >> Just a fishing question here. > >> Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does they way > >> of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > >> Kevin > At the very least, this inquiry could bring up an intersting topic regarding > different professions and the effect they might have  on the marriage. Amway > is one of many that has the potential to create its own set of problems within > a relationship. > jadelee

Being a phone sex operator can grate on a marriage too.  And so can just about any occupation where a lot of travel is involved.

Response:

I do not know what Amway work is. Is it a fortune 500 club? momalot – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jadelee111512 wrote: > >From: "B and B" > >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! > >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! > >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not > >becoming one. > >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause > >marital problems. > >Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message > >news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… > >> Just a fishing question here. > >> Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does they way > >> of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > >> Kevin > At the very least, this inquiry could bring up an intersting topic regarding > different professions and the effect they might have  on the marriage.  Amway > is one of many that has the potential to create its own set of problems within > a relationship. > jadelee

Response:

Tracey wrote: > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it > >would cause marital problems. > If *both* are involved (and are devoted to it), it doesn’t seem > like it’s a cause of problems.

That would be tres cool, if you think about it.  They could sell each other stuff ad nauseam and be filthy rich in no time, right? Ponzi 1, do you take Ponzi 2 to be your lawful wedded… Drew

Response:

> I do not know what Amway work is. Is it a fortune 500 club? > momalot

www.amway.com shepette  (who used to like momalot’s posts, too bad we’ve now lost her to the underworld of amway…)

Response:

Ahhh, I see what it is now. Thanks for the link, btw. In my area we have "Stanley" , I think it’s a lot like Amway. Not my cup a tea. momalot – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Shepette wrote: > > I do not know what Amway work is. Is it a fortune 500 club? > > momalot > www.amway.com > shepette  (who used to like momalot’s posts, too bad we’ve now lost her to > the underworld of amway…)

Response:

ROFLOL ISIS "momalot" <dadalotmoma…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:3A96B436.6E33A6DB@hotmail.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I do not know what Amway work is. Is it a fortune 500 club? > momalot > Jadelee111512 wrote: > > >From: "B and B" > > >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! > > >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! > > >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not > > >becoming one. > > >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality > > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause > > >marital problems. > > >Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message > > >news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… > > >> Just a fishing question here. > > >> Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does they way > > >> of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > > >> Kevin > > At the very least, this inquiry could bring up an intersting topic regarding > > different professions and the effect they might have  on the marriage. Amway > > is one of many that has the potential to create its own set of problems within > > a relationship. > > jadelee

Response:

Run fast and far. — JWB remove spamkiller to reply via e-mail "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message

news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just a fishing question here. > Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way > of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > Kevin

Response:

I agree with that, but Amway is in a class by itself. Amway’s just……… creepy — JWB remove spamkiller to reply via e-mail "Jadelee111512" <jadelee111…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20010223130358.05491.00000364@ng-co1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >From: "B and B" > >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! > >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! > >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not > >becoming one. > >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause > >marital problems. > >Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message > >news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… > >> Just a fishing question here. > >> Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does they way > >> of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > >> Kevin > At the very least, this inquiry could bring up an intersting topic regarding > different professions and the effect they might have  on the marriage. Amway > is one of many that has the potential to create its own set of problems within > a relationship. > jadelee

Response:

On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:11:14 -0500, "B and B" <baboonnliz…@prodigy.net> wrote: >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not >becoming one. >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause >marital problems.

Nitpick Dept:  Most Borg vessels are cubes, not spheres.

Response:

>From: "B and B" >Being a phone sex operator can grate on a marriage too.  And so can just >about any occupation where a lot of travel is involved.

Those are examples of a few.  Any high stress job has a potential to effect a marriage. Too many to name.  We are not well prepared to handle the stressors of jobs and marriage. jadelee

Response:

"B and B" wrote: >Being a phone sex operator can grate on a marriage too.  And so can just >about any occupation where a lot of travel is involved.

I could see how a lot of travel could grate on a marriage. Mom, for example, got more than just a bit fed up being home alone with the kids while dad was always out on the road selling insurance. He finally had to give it up, trading it in for teaching highschool and regular home hours. On the other hand, a tiny bit of work travel can be good for a marriage. For example, I’m happy for the time I have with my wife, but for the three or four times a year she’s off to trade shows, I enjoy that solitude time as well. As well, there have also been at least a few of her work trips where I’ve come along, we’ve extended our stay, and made a vacation of the situation more economically than if we had to pay the full shot for travel ourselves. So to my own family experiences at least, a lot of occupational travel can add to marital stress, where as a bit of occupational travel can actually be more beneficial to a marital relationship than none at all. CJ

Response:

Our relationshio has various small problems ie… insistence on using only Amway products (even if I don,t like that particular product) Granted Amway has some good products, But as any Company does they also have some bad ones or just plain some too expensive ones. I love my wife with all my heart, sometimes tho it seems that the Amway brainwashing borders on the ridiculous. By the way I am a former Amway brainwashee so I do know the other side and underrstand how they think. I was pretty disturbed by the way the marketing was carried out and the type of person I was turning out to be when I was involved. Thanks for all the response, keep it coming Kevin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– From: CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> Newsgroups: alt.support.marriage Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 9:36 AM Subject: Re: Amway > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked >  (and leave off the "potatoes" CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> wrote in message news:3aa09f57.22892148@news.nac.net… > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked >  (and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail)

Response:

I’ve always had the belief that Amway will ruin a relationship unless both partners are in it 100%. Let me guess – your wife makes next to nothing in real profit, but "will… someday" — JWB remove spamkiller to reply via e-mail "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message

news:t9frefdafcame5@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Our relationshio has various small problems ie… insistence on using only > Amway products (even if I don,t like that particular product) Granted Amway > has some good products, But as any Company does they also have some bad ones > or just plain some too expensive ones. I love my wife with all my heart, > sometimes tho it seems that the Amway brainwashing borders on the > ridiculous. By the way I am a former Amway brainwashee so I do know the > other side and underrstand how they think. I was pretty disturbed by the way > the marketing was carried out and the type of person I was turning out to be > when I was involved. > Thanks for all the response, keep it coming > Kevin > —– Original Message —– > From: CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> > Newsgroups: alt.support.marriage > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 9:36 AM > Subject: Re: Amway > > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their > way > > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? > >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked > >  (and leave off the "potatoes" > CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> wrote in message > news:3aa09f57.22892148@news.nac.net… > > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their > way > > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? > >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked > >  (and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail)

Response:

Hi Kevin, I’m not a distributor, but I do know a few.  A co-worker was married 16 years when "they" got started in "the business".  That was about 6 years ago.  Their divorce was final last summer.  W said he was never home and found someone to fill in the gap.  Another co-worker says it ruined her daughter’s first marriage for the same reason – one of the two of them was always chasing a sale or going off to one function or another.  Another couple  that I know make it work, but that’s because they literally do it side by side.  As I understand the way that it’s structured, it’s together….on NOT.  Figuratively and literally. I hope this is somewhat of an answer for you. — – First Light     @——-We are each of us angels with only one wing; and it’s when we embrace each other that we can fly.—-/—@ "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message

news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just a fishing question here. > Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way > of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > Kevin

Response:

The company as a whole is successful. But the people in it, overwhelmingly, are not. They get you in for a year or two, the suckers buy *everything* they use/own through amway, then they realize they are making *zero* monry, and they drop out. They seem to recruit from the lower-middle / middle class mostly. The people easiest to sell "the good life" to, as those people will believe it. The poor usually won’t, and generally won’t have the ambition the follow through (and afford the initial "kit"). But the middle class will put the kit on the credit card, charge a few suits (for the weekly "pump me ups"), and generally feel proud for awhile that they have a "business". They get nice little business cards made, and listen to Zig-Zigler tell them how great life can be. Most of them are smiling on the outside and putting up a successful "front" (wearing clothing and taking trips they cannot afford, so they can "keep up"…. really. I had several friends in Amway. They would charge a new suit, and fly to Florida for a three hour meeting, and fly home the same day. stuff they could hardly afford to do – but Amway made them feel like they couldn’t afford NOT to – it’s a bizzare company). Anyway, I’ve rambled enough. I’ve seen this company close up, and see what it does to people. It’s sad. — JWB remove spamkiller to reply via e-mail "IgOr" <ignora…@NOSPAM.invalid> wrote in message

news:slrn99h3mt.4j4.ignoramus@nospam.invalid… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > * Our relationshio has various small problems ie… insistence on using only > * Amway products (even if I don,t like that particular product) Granted Amway > * has some good products, But as any Company does they also have some bad ones > * or just plain some too expensive ones. I love my wife with all my heart, > * sometimes tho it seems that the Amway brainwashing borders on the > * ridiculous. By the way I am a former Amway brainwashee so I do know the > * other side and underrstand how they think. I was pretty disturbed by the way > * the marketing was carried out and the type of person I was turning out to be > * when I was involved. > That’s interesting. So, what kind of brainswashing do they do? What > kinds of people do they recruit? Why are they successful? > igor > * Thanks for all the response, keep it coming > * > * Kevin > * —– Original Message —– > * From: CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> > * Newsgroups: alt.support.marriage > * Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 9:36 AM > * Subject: Re: Amway > * > * > * > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > * > > * > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their > * way > * > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > * > > * > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? > * > > * > > * > > * >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked > * >  (and leave off the "potatoes" > * CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> wrote in message > * news:3aa09f57.22892148@news.nac.net… > * > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > * > > * > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their > * way > * > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > * > > * > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? > * > > * > > * > > * >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked > * >  (and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail) > * > * > — > Don’t sweat the petty things and don’t pet the sweaty things. – George

Carlin

Response:

As I’ve seen it described here and as I’ve seen it out here in RL, Amway is a religion of sorts.  It’s things like this that make me jest the concept of religion. ISIS "IgOr" <ignora…@NOSPAM.invalid> wrote in message

news:slrn99j39n.jm9.ignoramus@nospam.invalid… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dan Kegel <d…@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote: > * First Light wrote: > * > I’m not a distributor, but I do know a few.  A co-worker was married 16 > * > years when "they" got started in "the business".  That was about 6 years > * > ago.  Their divorce was final last summer.  W said he was never home and > * > found someone to fill in the gap.  Another co-worker says it ruined her > * > daughter’s first marriage for the same reason – one of the two of them was > * > always chasing a sale or going off to one function or another. Another > * > couple  that I know make it work, but that’s because they literally do it > * > side by side.  As I understand the way that it’s structured, it’s > * > together….[or] NOT.  Figuratively and literally. > * > * Yep.  Amway is a lot like a charismatic church… > * there are plenty of fine people in it, but they believe weird things > I have yet to see a "fine" person in MLM. Fine people tend to not like > lying constantly. > — > Don’t sweat the petty things and don’t pet the sweaty things. – George

Carlin

Response:

Larry Kessler <l_k_e_s_s_l_e_r@w_t_._n_e_t> wrote in message

news:4cee9tksrq1jrfqniogd52t0emakba5sn3@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:11:14 -0500, "B and B" > <baboonnliz…@prodigy.net> wrote: > >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! > >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! > >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not > >becoming one. > >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause > >marital problems. > Nitpick Dept:  Most Borg vessels are cubes, not spheres.

Depends on which star trek you are watching.

Response:

"John Kendricks" <jd…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:3a99948c.245820765@news.cis.dfn.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Everything you have said is true.  Amway (also now known as Quixtar) > preys on people who cannot afford the things or the lifestyle they > want, and brainwashes them to believe that if they will attend > frequent seminars, spend all their time listening to brainwashing > tapes, buy exclusively from amway or quixtar, and pester their > friends, relatives, coworkers, aquaintances,  people in malls, etc. > nonstop, they will become fabulously wealthy. > Here are some good amway-info links: > http://www.awod.com/gallery/rwav/slarsen/amway.html > http://skepdic.com/amway.html > http://www.apollowebworks.com/amway/ > http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/amway/amo_qmo.htm > If anyone reading this is planning on getting involved with amway or > quixtar, or is already involved with them, reading the above links > could be the single most important thing you ever do to save yourself > much suffering, misery and agony.

I’ve found that these people who are ‘Quixtar/Amway Critics’ have no credibility at all on the subject, they are usually the most screwed-up-broke-done-nothing-in-life people I’ve ever met. Why on earth would I want to fill my head with a bunch garbage from people who have no credibility in the area of success?  I seriously doubt that these people ‘got in’ then ‘quit’ (actually quit something they probably didn’t put hardly any effort toward) and then when on to be successfull fathers, husbands, entreprenuers, race car drivers or anything.  I bet the the only good things they end up being good at is: justification & rationalization of why they are where they are finanically, complaining, remote control operation and butt print formation (in couch cushions). I’ve seen all sorts of different levels of success in this business opportunity and I’ve seen it actually pull dozens (probably 100s) of marriages together, and these are indirect benefits from any kind of prosperity.  For postive results like these, it requires to a certain amount of effort just like any kind of  business opportunity, job, church, etc. and if a person is too busy (translates to lazy) to apply himself  and put forth effort than he is going to fail. This IS the best business opportunity I have ever seen it provides a level playing field for everyone.  It is structured to make money and the business plan works only if you work it.  Depending upon where you are personally, mentally and emotionally, you may need to learn and develop some personal and business skills that will enable you to build a successful business.  So in order to succeed learn how to learn from someone who has already done what you want to do.  The main goal of business is to make money and this opportunity is a great way to get the money obstacle hurdled in your life unlike most jobs out there.  Jobs are simply not structured to create any kind of wealth for the employee. It IS NOT a religion, if any body tries to enforce their beliefs on you concerning your faith in your creator, they are off base.  This applies to anywhere in life including your boss at your job. Good business is never built on deception and if someone is using any kind of deceptive tactics then you should address this issue directly don’t give up until you are satisfied.  I’ve found that the truly successfull people in this business are very direct, honest and trustworthy; the business is structured so that success is based upon success and it is in nobody’s interest to decieve anybody. If you’re checking out this business, remember to consider the credibility of the person who is providing the information. And make sure to check it out for yourself and don’t listen to broke people or negative attitudes. Good Luck to you in what ever you decide to do -but decide to do something!

Response:

First Light wrote: > I’m not a distributor, but I do know a few.  A co-worker was married 16 > years when "they" got started in "the business".  That was about 6 years > ago.  Their divorce was final last summer.  W said he was never home and > found someone to fill in the gap.  Another co-worker says it ruined her > daughter’s first marriage for the same reason – one of the two of them was > always chasing a sale or going off to one function or another.  Another > couple  that I know make it work, but that’s because they literally do it > side by side.  As I understand the way that it’s structured, it’s > together….[or] NOT.  Figuratively and literally.

Yep.  Amway is a lot like a charismatic church… there are plenty of fine people in it, but they believe weird things – Dan

Response:

Everything you have said is true.  Amway (also now known as Quixtar) preys on people who cannot afford the things or the lifestyle they want, and brainwashes them to believe that if they will attend frequent seminars, spend all their time listening to brainwashing tapes, buy exclusively from amway or quixtar, and pester their friends, relatives, coworkers, aquaintances,  people in malls, etc. nonstop, they will become fabulously wealthy. Here are some good amway-info links: http://www.awod.com/gallery/rwav/slarsen/amway.html http://skepdic.com/amway.html http://www.apollowebworks.com/amway/ http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/amway/amo_qmo.htm If anyone reading this is planning on getting involved with amway or quixtar, or is already involved with them, reading the above links could be the single most important thing you ever do to save yourself much suffering, misery and agony.

Response:

Just a fishing question here. Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? Kevin

Response:

Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! Stay away!  Stay away!!!! Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not becoming one. Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause marital problems. Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message

news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just a fishing question here. > Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way > of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > Kevin

Response:

>of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it >would cause marital problems.

If *both* are involved (and are devoted to it), it doesn’t seem like it’s a cause of problems. — Tracey Indigo: What sailors do when they see a bar                      —Funky Winkerbean—

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->From: "B and B" >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not >becoming one. >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause >marital problems. >Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message >news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… >> Just a fishing question here. >> Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does they way >> of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? >> Kevin

At the very least, this inquiry could bring up an intersting topic regarding different professions and the effect they might have  on the marriage.  Amway is one of many that has the potential to create its own set of problems within a relationship. jadelee

Response:

Question:

Look, you ignorant fool.  I’ll mess with you until hell freezes over. If I remember correctly, (and I do) she wanted the address so we could send a massive surprise to everyone attending – Perhaps they had no reason to believe that. Perhaps Waldo wasn’t in the habit of giving out addresses over the phone to people who don’t identify themselves. I don’t blame him if that’s the reason. _____NO.  You are NOT an honest person and businessman.  You gripe too much, you have a temper that is unreasonable and you always make sure you get your pound of flesh when you’re wrong . . . which is often. THAT, my dear pal is a fact of life regarding you.

oh man, this is really rich. George, the "psycho" analyst see ya george, walt

Response:

There you go, sugar coating your anti-georgian diatribes agian. Com’on Wolfie.  Take the gloves off <g.

Georgie has always brought out the best in me, as he has in all of us. We have much to thank him for. Or, as the inimitable Mr. Johnson once put it, "No one could possibly think more highly of him than I do, and I do not think much of him at all."      :)

Response:

[deleted] I have to go back to the Mayo Clinic this week end.  If I walk out of it, you have a date.

Don’t even think about not walking out. Ain’t an option. There’s damned few of us left as it is. I’m going to log off now and say the best prayer that I know how. We’re with ya George. Your pal. — TBone

Response:

I have to go back to the Mayo Clinic this week end.  If I walk out of it, you have a date.

Best of luck to you, George, you miserable sack of shit. Are you having your plumbing upgraded? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Wolfgang Siebeneich wrote … Did it never occur to you, you miserable fucking excuse for a human being that there might be people on this planet to whom an added expense, however small, might actually be a burden?  And did it never occur to you that the contributions already made by the people who brought off this clave are already a great deal more than you could ever hope to do despite your wealth?  Remember the parable of the poor woman who gave all that she had, you worthless piece of excrement? "…one cents worth"?  You vastly overestimate your value.

There you go, sugar coating your anti-georgian diatribes agian. Com’on Wolfie.  Take the gloves off <g. —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

I have to go back to the Mayo Clinic this week end.  If I walk out of it, you have a date. Best of luck to you, George, you miserable sack of shit. Are you having your plumbing upgraded?

medical center.  They not only love my money they love me as many doctors are fly fishermen.  If I have a chance at all, I’m in the right place rw. I could say I hope your wife leaves you, or your kids fails in school but the ultimate insult would be to wish your dog dies which I won’t do.  Therefore, I hope your wife leaves you and marries her boy friend and that I end up with your dog.  How’s that for miserable shit? : ) — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

Response:

medical center.  They not only love my money they love me as many doctors are fly fishermen.  If I have a chance at all, I’m in the right place rw. I could say I hope your wife leaves you, or your kids fails in school but the ultimate insult would be to wish your dog dies which I won’t do.  Therefore, I hope your wife leaves you and marries her boy friend and that I end up with your dog.

That’s looking more and more probable all the time. You’ll never get my dog, though. Again, George, good luck. Listen to the doctors. Do what they say. Don’t be a pain in the ass. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – medical center.  They not only love my money they love me as many doctors are fly fishermen.  If I have a chance at all, I’m in the right place rw. I could say I hope your wife leaves you, or your kids fails in school but the ultimate insult would be to wish your dog dies which I won’t do.  Therefore, I hope your wife leaves you and marries her boy friend and that I end up with your dog. That’s looking more and more probable all the time. You’ll never get my dog, though. Again, George, good luck. Listen to the doctors. Do what they say. Don’t be a pain in the ass. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

_____  I am never that.  I’m the kind of patient doctors love.  I’m a fighter.  I walked out of the Mayo Clinic 13 years ago after my by-passes in five days and flew my own airplane home.  It was a new Mayo Clinic record.  If I die, it will be Walt Winters fault. — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

Response:

George writes: I have to go back to the Mayo Clinic this week end.  If I walk out of it, you have a date. Good luck, George. Dave LaCourse

______  These will be the last words I will take with me when they apply the gas David. Thanks, — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

Response:

  I know for a fact that Doug Knight donated some mighty fine flies and he never got a thank you, go to hell or kiss my ass.  If my memory serves me right, his flies never were delivered or there was a short-coming which really isn’t my business that upset him.  I know the man was not pleased the way his donation was handled.

George, Doug’s Flies were raffled at the Fall Ball as they didn’t reach Wayno’s clave in time. He was made aware of that. I know it’s none of my business, but since it concerns roff, have you paid back Doug yet all that money, it has been a year? I’m also annoyed that none of my prizes were not shipped to me.  Walt Winter kept them.

George, I kept your winnings from the first raffle and re-entered them in the fall ball in a moment of heartfelt concern. My mistake,  I should have sent them you… Various non-gink floatants and Orvis products. I guess I should have sent them to you so you could at least see what the hell a quality product is like. George, I would have guessed that you would know better by now not to mess with me. BTW, you spineless twit, having Gladys call me anonymously prior to the clave to acquire centrals address was really in poor taste. It was fun listening to her stammer as I kept asking her who I was speaking to. You go George, you really do, straight to hell. Unlike you George, I am an honest person and businessman. I repeat.  If you guys can’t afford the shipping of prizes, I will back the clave up.  Its the least I can do for the clave.

George, here’s a silver tael, buy yourself a casket.   I just had other matters to look after that were beyond my control. Dementia? See ya pal, Waldo

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Walt quotes and writes:   I know for a fact that Doug Knight donated some mighty fine flies and he never got a thank you, go to hell or kiss my ass.  If my memory serves me right, his flies never were delivered or there was a short-coming which really isn’t my business that upset him.  I know the man was not pleased the way his donation was handled. George, Doug’s Flies were raffled at the Fall Ball as they didn’t reach Wayno’s clave in time. He was made aware of that. I know it’s none of my business, but since it concerns roff, have you paid back Doug yet all that money, it has been a year? I’m also annoyed that none of my prizes were not shipped to me.  Walt Winter kept them. George, I kept your winnings from the first raffle and re-entered them in the fall ball in a moment of heartfelt concern. My mistake,  I should have sent them you… Various non-gink floatants and Orvis products. I guess I should have sent them to you so you could at least see what the hell a quality product is like. George, I would have guessed that you would know better by now not to mess with me. BTW, you spineless twit, having Gladys call me anonymously prior to the clave to acquire centrals address was really in poor taste. It was fun listening to her stammer as I kept asking her who I was speaking to. You go George, you really do, straight to hell. Unlike you George, I am an honest person and businessman. I repeat.  If you guys can’t afford the shipping of prizes, I will back the clave up.  Its the least I can do for the clave. George, here’s a silver tael, buy yourself a casket. I just had other matters to look after that were beyond my control. Dementia? See ya pal, Waldo

Doug Knight’s flies were won by someone at the fall ball and we all raved about the quality of the flies.  It was one of the most coveted of gifts.  I believe Doug won something, I can not recall what, and it was either shipped to him or he turned it down.   My biggest concern about Doug is wondering if he ever got paid for the rods he built.   George won one of my donations to the May Clave 1999.  I believe it was a bottle of floatant and some strike indicators, all marketed by Orvis.  If George would like, I will purchase more of the same and *gladly* send them to him.  But, he has to promise to use them and not throw them in the trash can. <g Dave  d;0)

Response:

< snipped a lot of vocal diarrhea Mr. G.

Damn, every time I think he is finally gone he shows up again. Turn on your filters. Ernie Harrison

Response:

  I know for a fact that Doug Knight donated some mighty fine flies and he never got a thank you, go to hell or kiss my ass.  If my memory serves me right, his flies never were delivered or there was a short-coming which really isn’t my business that upset him.  I know the man was not pleased the way his donation was handled. George, Doug’s Flies were raffled at the Fall Ball as they didn’t reach Wayno’s clave in time. He was made aware of that. I know it’s none of my business, but since it concerns roff, have you paid back Doug yet all that money, it has been a year?

______  Well frankly, it’s none of your business, is it?   I’m also annoyed that none of my prizes were not shipped to me.  Walt Winter kept them. George, I kept your winnings from the first raffle and re-entered them in the fall ball in a moment of heartfelt concern. My mistake,  I should have sent them you… Various non-gink floatants and Orvis products. I guess I should have sent them to you so you could at least see what the hell a quality product is like. George, I would have guessed that you would know better by now not to mess with me. BTW, you spineless twit, having Gladys call me anonymously prior to the clave to acquire centrals address was really in poor taste. It was fun listening to her stammer as I kept asking her who I was speaking to. You go George, you really do, straight to hell.

Look, you ignorant fool.  I’ll mess with you until hell freezes over. If I remember correctly, (and I do) she wanted the address so we could send a massive surprise to everyone attending – but because of YOU, you ungrateful moron, everyone didn’t get the shipment.  Talk about spineless twit, that best describes you and your continued name calling only lowers you.  I’ve had you figured out for a long time pal and you are frankly "a user."  As long as something benefits YOU, you’re all for it.  Anytime you touch anything, there has to be a hook in it so you can get your share.  Why is that Walt? Yes, I don’t care what the prizes were, you had no right to auction off the prizes, as you said.  The question is, where is my money?  Another way to ask it, is what did you DO with the money?  Use it to help pay shipping costs? What is so lousy about you is your sense of fun.   Unlike you George, I am an honest person and businessman.

_____NO.  You are NOT an honest person and businessman.  You gripe too much, you have a temper that is unreasonable and you always make sure you get your pound of flesh when you’re wrong . . . which is often. THAT, my dear pal is a fact of life regarding you.   I repeat.  If you guys can’t afford the shipping of prizes, I will back the clave up.  Its the least I can do for the clave. George, here’s a silver tael, buy yourself a casket.

______  Well, I’ll let you buy my casket with all the money you seem to squeeze out of everyone with your ’surprise tactics’.  I’m sure when I die, no one of your caliber will be able to fill the void.  Dying for me will be soon enough.  I’m sure that news will make your day.     I just had other matters to look after that were beyond my control. Dementia? See ya pal,

______ I’m sure when you do, the pleasure will be all yours.   Waldo (The cry-baby of ROFF) The man that always bites the hands that feed him.  

– Just remember this Walt.  This thread started with an offer by us to help with the prizes being shipped.  If you can’t handle it, let a man do the job next time.  I certainly was impressed with daytripper’s efforts and post this morning.  Why is that? Because its the WAY he does things.  He and I may have differences but at least he has a real ’sense’ for fairness.  That, I will give him. You, on the other hand, are nothing more than a hustler. This is my final answer. Mr.G http://www.gink.com

Response:

George, here’s a silver tael, buy yourself a casket.

Um, wouidn’t that be a pyre on a float boat?  Send it UPS…

Response:

_______  It appears to me that your false misgivings regarding others is a continued sham of lies.  

That you’re a miserable excuse for a person? That isn’t a lie. It’s an opinion. An extreme one, but defensible. I am not old

Just old enough to fly an F-86 upside down over the Kremlin during the Korean War… If shipping is a ball breaker, then there is such a thing as Shipping C.O.D. <snip I’m also annoyed that none of my prizes were not shipped to me.  Walt Winter kept them.

Maybe they shipped UPS? "My father said to be strong, ‘that a good man could  never do wrong’ in a dream I had last night in America"                             -Los Lobos

Response:

Dear Mr G    Have never hearde your biographicsal stories but hope you will join me at Western clave for some fishing time. You must have some good stories because the guys at the claves always mentiomn them. This last clave was sort of a bummer for me.  Only three or four of the guys were willing to give up a day of fishing with new friends to suffer thru a day watching me hang up in trees  and watching the fish exit the pools before I could get set up for casting standing in the middle of the pool. One guy even took pictures of me fishing and showed them to the crowd at night,  showing no real concern for a  brginner like me who is real bashful  and self conscinus.  I was not lucky at the raaffel as I won only a reel and a matching line, not a single fly!! And some of those guys a really cheap.  Tom  probably spent a couple of hundred dollars feeding everyone and Walt  only invest a couple of hundred in the clave package everyone received when they arrived.The worst thing was Palmico Jim  who drank one half of a boddle of Reserve Wild Turkey someone donated, that only left half a bottle for me.  Hope you western guys tread Indians a little better , and the fish are easier to catch,  Indian Joe

Response:

Look, you ignorant fool.  I’ll mess with you until hell freezes over. If I remember correctly, (and I do) she wanted the address so we could send a massive surprise to everyone attending –

Perhaps they had no reason to believe that. Perhaps Waldo wasn’t in the habit of giving out addresses over the phone to people who don’t identify themselves. I don’t blame him if that’s the reason. _____NO.  You are NOT an honest person and businessman.  You gripe too much, you have a temper that is unreasonable and you always make sure you get your pound of flesh when you’re wrong . . . which is often. THAT, my dear pal is a fact of life regarding you.  

Have you paid Doug Knight yet? "My father said to be strong, ‘that a good man could  never do wrong’ in a dream I had last night in America"                             -Los Lobos

Response:

That would be a waste of a good float boat, how about a box of matches and an old inner tube? Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George, here’s a silver tael, buy yourself a casket. Um, wouidn’t that be a pyre on a float boat?  Send it UPS…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Mr G    Have never hearde your biographicsal stories but hope you will join me at Western clave for some fishing time. You must have some good stories because the guys at the claves always mentiomn them. This last clave was sort of a bummer for me.  Only three or four of the guys were willing to give up a day of fishing with new friends to suffer thru a day watching me hang up in trees  and watching the fish exit the pools before I could get set up for casting standing in the middle of the pool. One guy even took pictures of me fishing and showed them to the crowd at night,  showing no real concern for a  brginner like me who is real bashful  and self conscinus.  I was not lucky at the raaffel as I won only a reel and a matching line, not a single fly!! And some of those guys a really cheap.  Tom  probably spent a couple of hundred dollars feeding everyone and Walt  only invest a couple of hundred in the clave package everyone received when they arrived.The worst thing was Palmico Jim  who drank one half of a boddle of Reserve Wild Turkey someone donated, that only left half a bottle for me.  Hope you western guys tread Indians a little better , and the fish are easier to catch,  Indian Joe

_____  Well Joe, you wouldn’t be pulling my chain now, would you?  LOL. If it is possible, I would be pleased to go fishing with you.  Just you and I.  Tom has a big heart and is a first class act.  No doubting that Joseph.   I have to go back to the Mayo Clinic this week end.  If I walk out of it, you have a date. — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

Response:

Have you paid Doug Knight yet? "My father said to be strong, ‘that a good man could  never do wrong’ in a dream I had last night in America"                             -Los Lobos

_____ Do you still beat your wife Mike? — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

Response:

George writes: I have to go back to the Mayo Clinic this week end.  If I walk out of it, you have a date.

Good luck, George. Dave LaCourse

Response:

My one cents worth gents…. If you guys are too cheap to handle the shipping, ship all the prizes and send me the bill.  I’ll pay for it.  Its the least I can do for my fellow "Sportsmen".

You know George, after determining that you truly are a sick man, I had promised myself that I would no longer respond to any more of your demented ravings, but this latest attempt to aggrandize yourself at the expense of someone who has gone to a great deal of trouble and expense to provide a wonderful experience to a lot of people to whom he owed nothing is really too much to bear silently.  Did it never occur to you, you miserable fucking excuse for a human being that there might be people on this planet to whom an added expense, however small, might actually be a burden?  And did it never occur to you that the contributions already made by the people who brought off this clave are already a great deal more than you could ever hope to do despite your wealth?  Remember the parable of the poor woman who gave all that she had, you worthless piece of excrement? "…one cents worth"?  You vastly overestimate your value.

Response:

_____  I was supposed to get my prize last year, which I never got. Guess SOMEONE must have sold it to start up his business? Frankly, I think there should be a silent auction AFTER Roff decides to support a faction regarding trout and/or streams.  I think using funds to support a newsletter or a favorite Catch and Release Stream (making T-Bone the President) might have merit. There is nothing wrong with Roff that thinking of improving our sport wouldn’t help. When a conclave has finished and so many complaints are written regarding "some thoughts" as found in a bad "After Drink" I would say the stream has some rogue fish in it. My one cents worth gents.  Anyone who bitches about shipping expenses is nothing more than a cheap date.  Ship the dang prizes because that is the department the prize holders KNEW was part of the deal.  Why cause trouble and make others feel they are trouble to others for winning?  I would think any one of the touted lawyers could afford at least that expense for the Conclave. If you guys are too cheap to handle the shipping, ship all the prizes and send me the bill.  I’ll pay for it.  Its the least I can do for my fellow "Sportsmen".   — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

snipped stupidity: _______  It appears to me that your false misgivings regarding others is a continued sham of lies.  I am not old and I’m not demented and I’m certainly not stooping to silly ravings.  It’s you that goes over board to defame others you piece of worthless mouse shit.  It is not me that is crying about expenses and what you take to be an aggrandizement is indeed a false charge. Listen ace.  I’m not the one that is bitching and complaining about anything except the complaining that continues regarding the prizes at all the ‘Eastern Conclaves?’  I didn’t start it but I’m certainly able to assist in it.  Whoever is in control of distributing the prizes needs to pay for the shipping.  He or They KNEW that was part of the deal. Why cry in public about what it takes to ship things?  The shipping charges should be part of "That Person’s" donation to making the conclave a success.  Are you trying to tell me and everyone now that THAT wasn’t ‘assumed’ or known, or a fact of life issue?  If shipping is a ball breaker, then there is such a thing as Shipping C.O.D. No it doesn’t occur to me that anyone that can travel to a conclave to have fun with ‘the boys,’ is hurting financially.  I’m just tired of listening to the gripes and bickering and poor me alligator tears that continue since the first time around regarding prize problems.  I know for a fact that Doug Knight donated some mighty fine flies and he never got a thank you, go to hell or kiss my ass.  If my memory serves me right, his flies never were delivered or there was a short-coming which really isn’t my business that upset him.  I know the man was not pleased the way his donation was handled.  I’m also annoyed that none of my prizes were not shipped to me.  Walt Winter kept them.  Let’s call it the way it is. He never followed through.  I regard that as a cheap shot just like some who cannot afford to get the gifts to the people who won and deserved them.  Get it pal?  (Or hasn’t your elevator reached the top floor yet?) Look, its alright for me to donate expensive fly rods to charity and for worthwhile causes, right?  But when it comes my turn to get a cheap T-shirt – I don’t rate? Give me a break!  And that isn’t all of it pal. So I would appreciate it if you would continue to mind your own business Wolfgang and stop talking about those things you know little or nothing about.  Okay? I repeat.  If you guys can’t afford the shipping of prizes, I will back the clave up.  Its the least I can do for the clave. Incidentally Wolfgang, you stooping to name calling of others really is uncalled for. Sometimes, principle is more valuable and is the cement of friendships.  I certainly have the sense that there are some who are not happy about certain prize events.  All I’m saying is if there is a financial problem, I’m here to help with it even though I didn’t attend the conclave (as much as I wanted to).  I just had other matters to look after that were beyond my control. Mr. G.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snipped stupidity: _______  It appears to me that your false misgivings regarding others is a continued sham of lies.  I am not old and I’m not demented and I’m certainly not stooping to silly ravings.  It’s you that goes over board to defame others you piece of worthless mouse shit.  It is not me that is crying about expenses and what you take to be an aggrandizement is indeed a false charge. Listen ace.  I’m not the one that is bitching and complaining about anything except the complaining that continues regarding the prizes at all the ‘Eastern Conclaves?’  I didn’t start it but I’m certainly able to assist in it.  Whoever is in control of distributing the prizes needs to pay for the shipping.  He or They KNEW that was part of the deal. Why cry in public about what it takes to ship things?  The shipping charges should be part of "That Person’s" donation to making the conclave a success.  Are you trying to tell me and everyone now that THAT wasn’t ‘assumed’ or known, or a fact of life issue?  If shipping is a ball breaker, then there is such a thing as Shipping C.O.D. No it doesn’t occur to me that anyone that can travel to a conclave to have fun with ‘the boys,’ is hurting financially.  I’m just tired of listening to the gripes and bickering and poor me alligator tears that continue since the first time around regarding prize problems.  I know for a fact that Doug Knight donated some mighty fine flies and he never got a thank you, go to hell or kiss my ass.  If my memory serves me right, his flies never were delivered or there was a short-coming which really isn’t my business that upset him.  I know the man was not pleased the way his donation was handled.  I’m also annoyed that none of my prizes were not shipped to me.  Walt Winter kept them.  Let’s call it the way it is. He never followed through.  I regard that as a cheap shot just like some who cannot afford to get the gifts to the people who won and deserved them.  Get it pal?  (Or hasn’t your elevator reached the top floor yet?) Look, its alright for me to donate expensive fly rods to charity and for worthwhile causes, right?  But when it comes my turn to get a cheap T-shirt – I don’t rate? Give me a break!  And that isn’t all of it pal. So I would appreciate it if you would continue to mind your own business Wolfgang and stop talking about those things you know little or nothing about.  Okay? I repeat.  If you guys can’t afford the shipping of prizes, I will back the clave up.  Its the least I can do for the clave. Incidentally Wolfgang, you stooping to name calling of others really is uncalled for. Sometimes, principle is more valuable and is the cement of friendships.  I certainly have the sense that there are some who are not happy about certain prize events.  All I’m saying is if there is a financial problem, I’m here to help with it even though I didn’t attend the conclave (as much as I wanted to).  I just had other matters to look after that were beyond my control. Mr. G.

ahh G, so good to have you back.  hope you’re doin ok. we all missed you at Waldo’s Spring Fling…there were waterfalls climbed in your absence. jeff

Response:

Question:

Okay gang, what would be on your ideal fly fishing web site?  And what sites come close to your ideal? Jeff

Thosands of people should reveal their honey holes, and no one should be able to access the site but me. — Those who say do not know; those who know do not say. — Lao Tsu, who must have been a fisherman. something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Okay gang, what would be on your ideal fly fishing web site?  And what sites come close to your ideal? Jeff

Response:

Okay gang, what would be on your ideal fly fishing web site?  

Tech stuff: 1. Smart technology design, made to maximize usability on different client configurations. No Frames, No Java, No Java script, No Banners, No animated gifs, No excessive graphics, No risky and non fail-gracefully code, No excessive tables, No overdoing lay-out with html – settle for structure. 2. Universal non-plattform specific readability in terms of fonts and colors. 3. Keep it simple! 99 of a hundred trying to be fancy end up looking like complete and utter imbeciles. Let your content speak for it self, don’t fuck it up with bad design decisions. 4. Do not split long pages into several small ones (common sense applies, though). 5. Make it fast and effortless for visitors to figure out the structure of your website, latest updates and contents (search-engine, what’s new-overview, site map). Do not make your site look cool for the uninterested drooling 7-year old who will visit your site once or twice. Make it functional for your frequent visitors. Read this: http://photo.net/wtr/thebook/ And check out http://www.w3.org/ as well. That is the easy part, now the hard stuff. Content guidelines: 1. Only do stuff you or your staff is knowledgeable on. 2. Do things well and complete, or don’t do them at all. You get no extra points for putting it on the web. The Internet is 20 years old and maturing every minute (ROFF excepted of course . Sucky things aren’t cool any longer just because they are on the web, they just suck. 3. Allow feedback and publicly available comments on everything (interactive). Share what you know, and let others share what they know related to your site. 4. Update regularly. Don’t suddenly take a 6 month absence without notice. Be committed, and stay that way. Content: Firstly, take a look at the major search engines, and see what sites are out there. A million or two. Find anything missing? Or a concept that could be substantially improved upon by you? 1. I couldn’t give a rat’s ass about another site set out to help newbies figure the most basic things. There are plenty of those already (I assume). 2. Neither do I pursue sites which focuses on technical fly fishing stuff, like hatches, insects, knots, rods, technique etc. Of course, an extensive site of this would be interesting, and definitively worthy of a bookmark, and be used as a reference. If the site is somewhat less then really really really great (which will require insane amounts of work), it’s not interesting to me at all. Remember, hundreds of books has been written on these subjects by very knowledgeable people. Be better, or be gone. 3. I want personal stuff. I like pictures and I enjoy stories. I want someone who is adept at writing to share his thoughts and experiences with me. I may be a weirdo, but I tremendously enjoy reading other people’s stories from fly fishing outings/trips. I want to know how they feel, what they are thinking, what happens etc, almost like a diary. Be willing to share. You can probably tell me very little about fly fishing, but you can probably tell me very much about yourself as a fly fisherman. Write a book about it, and put the chapters on your website. Offer intelligent and lengthy stuff. Screw those who gets a headache from reading more than a few minutes straight. Write it so good, that non-fly fishers will enjoy it as well. 4. Be humble, and expect nothing in return. 5. Write in Norwegian, so I can fully enjoy the subtle linguistic concept. (ok, this one is rather optional) That’s how the ideal fly fishing web site is to me. Quite easy, actually. Make one, and I’ll visit regularly, if I like your style. — Christian Figenschou – <URL: http://figen.com

Response:

Question:

 ANY ONE FLY FISHING THERE LATLEY I’LL BE 6/8/96 TO 6/14/96  ANY SPECIAL TRICKS. OR FLY’S, DRY OR WET. BY THE WAY IT’S  IN NORTHERN PLUMAS NATIONAL FOREST. –

Response:

 ANY ONE FLY FISHING THERE LATLEY I’LL BE 6/8/96 TO 6/14/96  ANY SPECIAL TRICKS. OR FLY’S, DRY OR WET. BY THE WAY IT’S  IN NORTHERN PLUMAS NATIONAL FOREST.

Response:

ANY ONE FLY FISHING THERE LATLEY I’LL BE 6/8/96 TO 6/14/96 ANY SPECIAL TRICKS. OR FLY’S, DRY OR WET. BY THE WAY IT’S IN NORTHERN PLUMAS NATIONAL FOREST.

Charlie Smith, the local tier and fly fisherman at Buck’s Lake, uses a Deer Hair Fly ( Humpy ) and the Rio Grand King dry fly in the streams.  He uses an Olive Wooly Worm in the lakes.  I would also have some #14/16 Adams Paraduns for the lakes. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

Response:

Question:

I’ am trying to decide whether to buy the Orvis 4 wgt.  Brook Trout combo($295) or the L.L.  Bean 4 wgt.  Guide combo($275).  The only difference seems to be thatOrvis has a more expensive rod and L.L.  Bean has a more expensive reel and the$20 diff, which I’am not concerned with.  help me.  thanks.

Response:

: I’ am trying to decide whether to buy the Orvis 4 wgt.  Brook Trout : combo($295) or the L.L.  Bean 4 wgt.  Guide combo($275).  The only : difference seems to be thatOrvis has a more expensive rod and L.L.  Bean : has a more expensive reel and the$20 diff, which I’am not concerned : with.  help me.  thanks. I would check out the GLoomis GL3..I’ve heard great things bout them Frankie

Response:

: I’ am trying to decide whether to buy the Orvis 4 wgt.  Brook Trout : combo($295) or the L.L.  Bean 4 wgt.  Guide combo($275).  The only : difference seems to be thatOrvis has a more expensive rod and L.L.  Bean : has a more expensive reel and the$20 diff, which I’am not concerned : with.  help me.  thanks. I would check out the GLoomis GL3..I’ve heard great things bout them Frankie

…And more…*($^#&#Y  For a little more you could pick up an Orvis PM….the 8′4" is pretty nice. just another option steve d.

Response:

: I’ am trying to decide whether to buy the Orvis 4 wgt.  Brook Trout : combo($295) or the L.L.  Bean 4 wgt.  Guide combo($275).  The only : difference seems to be thatOrvis has a more expensive rod and L.L.  Bean : has a more expensive reel and the$20 diff, which I’am not concerned : with.  help me.  thanks.

The Bean reels are heavier than the Orvis reels.  This may be good or it may be bad.  It depends on how you like to balance your outfit.  My Henry’s Fork balances nicely with a Battenkill 5/6 Disc; I do not want the extra weight of a Bean Guide reel. I am picking nits.  I am sure that you would be happy with either (or both!). — Keep your stick on the ice.

Response:

: I’ am trying to decide whether to buy the Orvis 4 wgt.  Brook Trout : combo($295) or the L.L.  Bean 4 wgt.  Guide combo($275).  The only : difference seems to be thatOrvis has a more expensive rod and L.L.  Bean : has a more expensive reel and the$20 diff, which I’am not concerned : with.  help me.  thanks. The Bean reels are heavier than the Orvis reels.  This may be good or it may be bad.  It depends on how you like to balance your outfit.  My Henry’s Fork balances nicely with a Battenkill 5/6 Disc; I do not want the extra weight of a Bean Guide reel. I am picking nits.  I am sure that you would be happy with either (or both!).

I know this is going to start a war but…. From what I have seen LL Bean is a great clothing store but they don’t seem to produce (or re-package with their name) equipment of the quality you can get from Orvis.  I would go with the Orvis every time. Well time to climb into the bomb shelter ! Tom

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I’ am trying to decide whether to buy the Orvis 4 wgt.  Brook Trout : combo($295) or the L.L.  Bean 4 wgt.  Guide combo($275).  The only : difference seems to be thatOrvis has a more expensive rod and L.L.  Bean : has a more expensive reel and the$20 diff, which I’am not concerned : with.  help me.  thanks. The Bean reels are heavier than the Orvis reels.  This may be good or it may be bad.  It depends on how you like to balance your outfit.  My Henry’s Fork balances nicely with a Battenkill 5/6 Disc; I do not want the extra weight of a Bean Guide reel. I am picking nits.  I am sure that you would be happy with either (or both!). I know this is going to start a war but…. From what I have seen LL Bean is a great clothing store but they don’t seem to produce (or re-package with their name) equipment of the quality you can get from Orvis.  I would go with the Orvis every time. Well time to climb into the bomb shelter ! Tom

INCOMMMMMINNNNNNGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!

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        I personally wouldn’t choose a combo from either Orvis of L.L.Bean. I think you could do yourself a favor by putting your own set-up together. G.Loomis, Thomas & Thomas, and Powell make rods in your price range that offer good actions and strong warranties. As far as reels go, I would suggest a Ross Cimmeron or a Orvis Battenkill in your price range. These reels are probably more than you need for a 4 weight rod.         I hope my butting in was not taking wrong. The only thing I wanted to do is help. If I can be of further assistance my e-mail address

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I know this is going to start a war but…. From what I have seen LL Bean is a great clothing store but they don’t seem to produce (or re-package with their name) equipment of the quality you can get from Orvis.  I would go with the Orvis every time.

No war, Tom, just a difference of opinion. I think the quality of L.L. Bean fly fishing gear is every bit as good as Orvis and offers better value as well. The Angler series is a wonderful choice for someone getting into fly fishing who wants to buy stuff they will fish with for a lifetime as opposed to so much of the entry-level stuff that is just not so well made. (I suppose the Orvis Clearwater series is probably very nice, too, but I haven’t seen that stuff yet.) In addition, L.L. Bean is a model of customer service and offers their unconditional lifetime guarantee on everything they sell. I go with L.L. Bean every time I can. (And no, I don’t work for Bean’s, hold their stock, or anything else like that.) – Scott — Sustaining and Specials Engineering     voice: 508 952-4792 Xyplex, Inc.                            fax: 508 952-4887 295 Foster St.                          (Opinions, comments, etc. are mine, Littleton, MA 01460                                     not Xyplex’s…)

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Actually, the LLBean Guide & LL series rods are built on Loomis blanks. (Call ‘em up; they’ll tell you who makes any of the fishing gear for them.) The Bean guarantee is basically "whatever, forever". Friends have even sent back leaky old waders for repair/replacement/credit. Orvis rods are fine if you like the generally slower actions, and don’t mind the ugly blanks .

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I know this is going to start a war but…. From what I have seen LL Bean is a great clothing store but they don’t seem to produce (or re-package with their name) equipment of the quality you can get from Orvis.  I would go with the Orvis every time.

Misattribution.  I am a big LL Bean fan, and if the Canadian dollar were spunkier I would buy much more from them. Joke:  The Royal Canadian Mint has come up with a name for the new $2 CDN coin: an American dollar. — Keep your stick on the ice.

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Buying a rod without casting it is always tricky.  I know the bass pond sends rods out for demo’s.  Orvis rods have a consistentcy of action, that I learned to appreciate as I sold them and fished them.  The actions vary between the different class of rods but there is a consistency overall that is hard to explain.  Keep shopping and you’ll find what you like at a price you can afford.  I prefer, an early 9ft sage 1st generation 4-5 five weight, the Orvis western 9ft 3wt, 8-6 2wt and the fullflex 6wt BMckinley Mpls

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LLOOMIS   L O O M I S   L    O    O    M    I    S   REGARDS MATT

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Hear, hear! I often read those magazine stories and look at the pretty pictures . . . Then, as I pick my way around the old tires so I can cast to the submerged shopping cart in mid-river, I try to recall all those pretty pictures. Those folks have birds singing and gurgling waters, I’ve got traffic zipping by and barking dogs. But, I’m catching plenty of good-sized fish and having a blast–even if neither I nor my surroundings look like the center spread in American Flyfisherman (or whatever). Fishing and fun are were you find them or make them. JL LPM Editor

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In Response to JC’s article about flyfishing morons I can only respond – Beautiful! Absolutely Beautiful!!! This is truely it – the essence of flyfishing – the type of conditions and payoff and bring us back time after time, leaving spouses and friends shaking their heads saying ‘he’s definitely out of his gourd!’

On my first ever flyfishing trip for trout (or any otehr species) I resurrected an old pair of Converse hip waders that had belonged to my father. They were probably older than I was and had not been stored in ideal conditions. They had pinhole leaks everywhere. Went into the nearest town and bought their entire supply or tire pactches. The hip boots looked like they had cancer. Still leaked. The last day of the trip an unseasonal cold spell moved in and it snowed. I said the hell with the waders, I’ll wade wet. The water temperature was about 52 degrees and the air temp about 22. As long as I stayed in the water I was fine. When I came out my cotton bluejeans froze up stiff as a board. I didn’t catch a thing all weekend long and it is still one of my fondest memories. I guess it’s safe to say that flyfishers have a different outlook from most "normal" people.

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In Response to JC’s article about flyfishing morons I can only respond –                      Beautiful! Absolutely Beautiful!!! This is truely it – the essence of flyfishing – the type of conditions and payoff and bring us back time after time, leaving spouses and friends shaking their heads saying ‘he’s definitely out of his gourd!’  Also true, magazines provide a sickenly unrealistic portrayal of the usual flyfishing excursion and the true charcter of the flyfisherman(person).  Most of my fishing adventures have taken place in a drift boat on the Yakima River in Washington state. Prior to investing in a *real* driftboat, we used an old plastic thing that looked like a kiddie sandbox and it was patched with silicone gel and aluminum beer cans, due to the numerous rocks, trees, and other obsticles that we managed to plow into.  Pack into that 3 full grown men brandishing 8-1/2 ft fiberglass rods (6 or 7 weight – also, you NEVER take your good rod out in this particular boat), a little beer, 6 hours of (then) total solitude, having the river completely to yourself, a couple of caotic near capsizes and arguments over who’s turn it is to row the damn boat, and you have all the ingredients of a real good time.  We occasionally ran into a few parties that looked like a marketing campagne for a menswear catalogue, however, they were too busy looking good to be much fun, and besides, they weren’t catching any fish. Anyway, thanks for the story, JC.  It really did my old heart good! Tim

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I was out in the Gulf over the week end and caught a 2.5 to 3"  red grouper on an 8/0 Hook.  The hook was bigger then the fish.  The bait was a 6" frozen sardin.  The hook was just wedged in its mouth and it couldn’t get off. —     _______   o  |  Gone fish’n in KoKoMo |_/ ——   o |  Carl Traenkner, Lead Software Engineer   I never thought I would see the day when fishermen would brag about their small fish, but at least I have something to brag about here! ;^) I have caught more 4" crappie than all of your dinky fish put together, so there. 4" crappie KING. Mark

Oh yeah!!  *I* was learning to fly fish and was casting onto a pond the size of most people’s driveways, when this Bluegill took the wiggly-green- legged floating fly I had selected to practice with (easy to see).  The hook was about a #8 (big for a fly), and the Bluegill was *exactly* 2 inches long… Brian — Brian Dixon, Machine Vision Engineer, Hewlett Packard (Corvallis, Oregon)

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  I was out in the Gulf over the week end and caught a 2.5 to 3"   red grouper on an 8/0 Hook.  The hook was bigger then the fish.   The bait was a 6" frozen sardin.   The hook was just wedged in its mouth and it couldn’t get off. —      _______   o  |  Gone fish’n in KoKoMo |_/ ——   o |  Carl Traenkner, Lead Software Engineer  

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I was out in the Gulf over the week end and caught a 2.5 to 3"  red grouper on an 8/0 Hook.  The hook was bigger then the fish.  The bait was a 6" frozen sardin.  The hook was just wedged in its mouth and it couldn’t get off. —     _______   o  |  Gone fish’n in KoKoMo |_/ ——   o |  Carl Traenkner, Lead Software Engineer  

I never thought I would see the day when fishermen would brag about their small fish, but at least I have something to brag about here! ;^) I have caught more 4" crappie than all of your dinky fish put together, so there. 4" crappie KING. Mark

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:  I was out in the Gulf over the week end and caught a 2.5 to 3" :  red grouper on an 8/0 Hook.  The hook was bigger then the fish. : :  The bait was a 6" frozen sardin. :   :  The hook was just wedged in its mouth and it couldn’t get off. :   :   : : — :     _______   o  |  Gone fish’n in KoKoMo : |_/ ——   o |  Carl Traenkner, Lead Software Engineer   : : I never thought I would see the day when fishermen would brag about : their small fish, but at least I have something to brag about here! ;^) : I have caught more 4" crappie than all of your dinky fish put together, : so there. : 4" crappie KING. : Mark I got a small trout (1" ) on a pheasant tail nymph last thursday. It was a hell of a fight. Thought I never would get it up! He/she was in fine condition so I released it after. Actually I didn’t know I had a fish on until I had made two or three dry casts. But I got a lot of big trouts and growlings (I think its the name in english) — – Peter Aberg         –     _____.              - – S-302 33 HALMSTAD   –              /          - + Tel:46-35-187617    +          O  /           +               – http://www.hh.se:7777/       Flyfish          -  ____        __                   /  _`     / __                 L __ ,_    __   _ __     /  __/ _/  __/ /     _ ____\ __ ____\ _

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :  I was out in the Gulf over the week end and caught a 2.5 to 3" :  red grouper on an 8/0 Hook.  The hook was bigger then the fish. : :  The bait was a 6" frozen sardin. :   :  The hook was just wedged in its mouth and it couldn’t get off. :   :   : : — :     _______   o  |  Gone fish’n in KoKoMo : |_/ ——   o |  Carl Traenkner, Lead Software Engineer   : : I never thought I would see the day when fishermen would brag about : their small fish, but at least I have something to brag about here! ;^) : I have caught more 4" crappie than all of your dinky fish put together, : so there. : 4" crappie KING. : Mark I got a small trout (1" ) on a pheasant tail nymph last thursday. It was a hell of a fight. Thought I never would get it up! He/she was in fine condition so I released it after. Actually I didn’t know I had a fish on until I had made two or three dry casts. But I got a lot of big trouts and growlings (I think its the name in english) —

Well here’s mine. :^) I caught a 4" perch on a 9" swim whiz while trolling for muskies last Sat. He wasn’t foul hooked either he was hooked in the upper lip by a single hook from the middle treble. BTW Thanks to all the folks who took time to respond to my question about fronts. I will remember the good advice. Frank – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – - Peter Aberg         –     _____.              - – S-302 33 HALMSTAD   –              /          - + Tel:46-35-187617    +          O  /           +           – http://www.hh.se:7777/       Flyfish          - ____        __                   /  _`     / __                 L __ ,_    __   _ __     /  __/ _/  __/ /   _ ____\ __ ____\ _

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I was fishing in a lake near my home in Lebanon, NH and I was pulling out 1-1/2 rock bass and perch for hours, I’d use a salmon egg hook with a worm on it, and these TINY little fish would attack them, and I’d just pull them out of the water, it was pretty fun because the big bass weren’t biting, but has anypne else heard of tiny fish biting like that? I think I caught several of them 2-3 time each… Scott Goodwin — |      /|~~~ |EAT. SLEEP. FISH.   "PLAY BALL!" (my 2 favorite words)

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I was fishing in a lake near my home in Lebanon, NH and I was pulling out 1-1/2 rock bass and perch for hours, I’d use a salmon egg hook with a worm on it, and these TINY little fish would attack them, and I’d just pull them out of the water, it was pretty fun because the big bass weren’t biting, but has anypne else heard of tiny fish biting like that? I think I caught several of them 2-3 time each…

I’ve never seen a (yellow) perch smaller than 6", but I have caught those little rock bass.  They are especially aggressive from dusk to darkness. I have a bag of #22 hooks in my tacklebox, along with some 1 lb line.  I have caught redbreast sunfish less than an in with this setup. Just this past Sunday I caught 5 3" striped bass from a small estuary of the Long Island sound.  They were so cute, I wanted to take them home and put them in an aquarium, but they were about 33" short of the 36" minimum! Scott Goodwin — |      /|~~~ |EAT. SLEEP. FISH.   "PLAY BALL!" (my 2 favorite words)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was fishing in a lake near my home in Lebanon, NH and I was pulling out 1-1/2 rock bass and perch for hours, I’d use a salmon egg hook with a worm on it, and these TINY little fish would attack them, and I’d just pull them out of the water, it was pretty fun because the big bass weren’t biting, but has anypne else heard of tiny fish biting like that? I think I caught several of them 2-3 time each… I’ve never seen a (yellow) perch smaller than 6", but I have caught those little rock bass.  They are especially aggressive from dusk to darkness. I have a bag of #22 hooks in my tacklebox, along with some 1 lb line.  I have caught redbreast sunfish less than an in with this setup. Just this past Sunday I caught 5 3" striped bass from a small estuary of the Long Island sound.  They were so cute, I wanted to take them home and put them in an aquarium, but they were about 33" short of the 36" minimum!

I’ve got a place on the Winnipeg River in Manitoba, and my dock sits in a small bay used by little feeders while they’re growing up. I use the smallest hook I have, stick a bit of worm on it, and it gets hit within 30 seconds every time. Usually yellow perch 3 or 4 inches long, the odd 6 inch walleye, the odd bass.  Of course the only time we do this is when I’m teaching my two year old son how to fish. He just beams every time he gets one! Plus they hit so light, the hook only gets them in the lip, so we’ve never (to my knowledge) done serious damage to one. Later, when asked how big his fish was, he stands up on his tip-toes and raises his hand high above his head – he’s gonna be a heckuva fisherman.

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| |     fishing AND backpacking AND caving AND biking AND…oh well | I couldn’t have said it better myself, and, you beat me to it! Not only is it more and more difficult to find a  male fishing partner as we all (stretch) get on in years, but such a female companion is amost an oxymoron.  One of these days I would really like someone to prove me wrong on that point…nudge,

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| |     fishing AND backpacking AND caving AND biking AND…oh well | I couldn’t have said it better myself, and, you beat me to it! Not only is it more and more difficult to find a  male fishing partner as we all (stretch) get on in years, but such a female companion is amost an oxymoron.  One of these days I would really like someone to prove me wrong on that point…nudge, Believe me, we exist!

Peggy                             "A friend walks in when everyone                                    else walks out"

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|   | Believe me, we exist! |   | Peggy                             "A friend walks in when everyone |                                    else walks out"    At least my faith has been restored  Now, if I can just find y’all (must be looking in the wrong    places, or hell, maybe it’s just me!) and catch a few trout this weekend, life’ll be perfect!    On another note, anyone out there know anything about the fishing conditions on the Perquimans River    in eastern NC?  I was telling someone about this river (used to be GREAT fishing on it, especially in    creeks) but it’s been years since I’ve been there…Last time I was the grass was so dense it was    real hard to fish thru…It used to go in cycles, a few years full of duckweed, a few years of almost    no grass, then back to tons of seaweed…How is it these days?  I’d hate to recommend a place that’s    difficult to fish…                                                         — scott

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| |     fishing AND backpacking AND caving AND biking AND…oh well | I couldn’t have said it better myself, and, you beat me to it! Not only is it more and more difficult to find a  male fishing partner as we all (stretch) get on in years, but such a female companion is amost an oxymoron.  One of these days I would really like someone to prove me wrong on that point…nudge,

Never they are out there to be found!! My wife is an example she loves rock hunting, spelunking(caving), fishing , hunting , camping, everything I always wanted. Don’t give up they are there. —    Spike                                 "Life is fun enjoy while you can"                                           I enjoy short-term "Investing"!

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Hi, I’m female and I love to fish! I even put the worms, live bait, etc. on the hook, and I even take the fish off the hook     myself (except for if it has big teeth!).  I’d rather be fishing right now!   Carol

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| Hi, | | I’m female and I love to fish! I even put the worms, live bait, etc. on the hook, and I even take the fish off the hook     | myself (except for if it has big teeth!).  I’d rather be fishing right now!   |   | Carol    Damn, and I live in Virginia!!!  ;-)                                 — scott

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| That s rry on the bride and groom and the bass boat is nothing…. | Oops, typo….story that is…. | I proposed to my wife during a moose hunting trip in northern Quebec (she | said afterwards she’d want it no other way).  She allows me to spends huge | amounts of money for hunting/fishing gear, and usually outshoots me at | grouse hunting.  But fishing…..now that’s where she comes to life!  You | take her fishing in the surf and camp on the beach.  She’s up before dawn | and waits until it’s light enough to see, and only returns for lunch and | when it gets dark!  And that’s even if the water’s dirty and nothing’s | biting!  She just won’t quit!  When a shark started taking fish off my | stringer, she just moved away from me.  She busted a rod last year on a | sting ray.  She almost always outfishes me, and sometimes guys are out | there trying to see what colors of plastics she’s using BEFORE she starts | catching them.  She plans on trying a little fly fishing in the surf this | year.  The only time she’s tried it was in Vermont with me, when she ended | up taking a swim in February.  The mild case of hypothermia didn’t faze her | one bit.  If somebody is hardcore, she’s it.  It’s scary.  And it’s that’s | not enough, she’s "model-quality" beautiful, and finishing her last year | of her veterinary degree at LSU so she can earn far more than I do.  Why | she loves me I’ll never know   |       | Andre |     fishing AND backpacking AND caving AND biking AND…oh well     By the way, anyone from Va have any suggestions for what flies might work     this coming weekend, besides the ole standbys?  Going out Sunday and need     to replenish my flies (lost 1, broke 1 and 3 came unraveled last week)…     I saw what looked like a mayfly while I was hiking but I’m not sure…I     haven’t decided if I’m going to the Bullpasture or somewhere in the     Shenendoah…                                         — scott

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