Question:

As much as I would like to say we are not so individual as we would like to think.. in this case, we really are. Yes, we’re all individuals! ~raises hand~ i’m not…. *grin* (not really.  just couldn’t let the MP reference go by uncommented.)

Thank you. I’m glad someone got it. R.

Response:

I worship the moon Goddess Diana/Artimis

It is a popular misconception that Diana is the Goddess of the Moon.  In fact, she was the Goddess of the Sun.  The name Diana means "light".   – Chive "There be some whose lives are as if they perpetually played a part upon a stage, disguised to all others, open only to themselves."

Question:

It may just be my monitor, but I think I liked Paul’s shot better than the example.

Please don’t mistake my post for a critique of Paul’s picture. His looks awesome and has a very high resolution. Plus he tied that fly himself for crying out loud. I’m just wondering when he’s going to fish with it There have been other threads of late about digital cameras and I think Paul’s image speaks highly of what a digital camera can do. In my post, I was simply commenting on how–in general–to get a solid-colored background. It was admittedly a bit of a non sequitur. –Steve

Response:

Steve, Thanks for the info…I was just pretty impressed by quality of the orig photo. I just bought my daughter a 35mm (by her request), but now am wondering if she would be better off just getting a digi. cam. Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It may just be my monitor, but I think I liked Paul’s shot better than the example. Please don’t mistake my post for a critique of Paul’s picture. His looks awesome and has a very high resolution. Plus he tied that fly himself for crying out loud. I’m just wondering when he’s going to fish with it There have been other threads of late about digital cameras and I think Paul’s image speaks highly of what a digital camera can do. In my post, I was simply commenting on how–in general–to get a solid-colored background. It was admittedly a bit of a non sequitur. –Steve

Response:

Gorgeous fly, Paul, and a great photo. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Hi, It was the Olympus 2020z with a wide angle adapter lens. With that adapter and the undocumented macro mode I was able to get 1.9" from the fly. I lit the fly with my halogen desk lamp. Paul

Paul, it is a GREAT shot.  The shaded background gives the fly a perfect richness of depth, and truly highlights the colors. — "Of what service would militia be to you, when most probably you will not have a single musket in the State; for as arms are to be provided by Congress, they may or may not furnish them?" -Patrick Henry,  5 June 1788

Response:

It may just be my monitor, but I think I liked Paul’s shot better than the example. Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – With that adapter and the undocumented macro mode I was able to get 1.9" from the fly. I lit the fly with my halogen desk lamp. Other general pointers… To get a white background, prop a piece of paper behind the fly. To avoid glare, block the overhead light using a clipboard or something similar, turn off the flash and then overexpose the shot. Here are a couple of examples: http://www.hamiltonrods.com/images/mosquito.jpg http://www.hamiltonrods.com/images/humpy.jpg Sometimes it’s nice to have a other backgrounds with little or no glare as well. Same technique applies. For a black background, I’ve found that an Unreal Tournament T-shirt works pretty well . You can vary the amount of glare by blocking more or less overhead light. Examples: http://www.hamiltonrods.com/images/DCP_0722.jpg http://www.hamiltonrods.com/images/DCP_0764.jpg http://www.hamiltonrods.com/images/DCP_0698.jpg Standard disclaimer… I’m an amateur photographer at best (but I have tried lots and lots of close up shots, most of which look pretty crappy). I defer to RW and Wayno for "real" photos. –Steve

Response:

… http://www.hamiltonrods.com/images/DCP_0764.jpg …

Ooooo, ahhhhhh. That reel sure goes nicely with a Hamilton Rod. What is that, a Peerless ? — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

With that adapter and the undocumented macro mode I was able to get 1.9" from the fly. I lit the fly with my halogen desk lamp.

Other general pointers… To get a white background, prop a piece of paper behind the fly. To avoid glare, block the overhead light using a clipboard or something similar, turn off the flash and then overexpose the shot. Here are a couple of examples: http://www.hamiltonrods.com/images/mosquito.jpg http://www.hamiltonrods.com/images/humpy.jpg Sometimes it’s nice to have a other backgrounds with little or no glare as well. Same technique applies. For a black background, I’ve found that an Unreal Tournament T-shirt works pretty well . You can vary the amount of glare by blocking more or less overhead light. Examples: http://www.hamiltonrods.com/images/DCP_0722.jpg http://www.hamiltonrods.com/images/DCP_0764.jpg http://www.hamiltonrods.com/images/DCP_0698.jpg Standard disclaimer… I’m an amateur photographer at best (but I have tried lots and lots of close up shots, most of which look pretty crappy). I defer to RW and Wayno for "real" photos. –Steve

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for putting it on-line; my _great_ (sic) provider does provide me with the replies, but not with the binary . Great looking fly! Love the married slips. Looking at works of art like these, I remember the late Hans de Groot, a well known flytier from the Netherlands. He was tying a salmon fly at an exhibition. Some guy was watching him, and asked Hans how much he wanted for it, once he finished. ‘I don’t sell flies’ he murmured under his beard, and slowly and meticulously continued tying his fly. ‘I give you a hundred guilders for it’ said the man, palming his wallet. ‘I don’t sell flies’, was the undisturbed reply. This went on, a sweating man bidding up, Hans slowly finishing his fly. When he was finished he looked at a young boy, who head eyed every step of the process. ‘Do you like it?’ ‘Yes’ ‘It’s yours, take it.’ The now red with anger guy looked at Hans, who calmly said.. ‘I told you. I don’t sell flies..’ He is missed. Herman

And the modern American ending to the story: The boy then turned to the angry man and said, "It will be up on E-Bay in the morning."

Response:

1600×1200, 384KB http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/greenhilander.jpg

Which camera? Mu

Response:

Hi, It was the Olympus 2020z with a wide angle adapter lens. With that adapter and the undocumented macro mode I was able to get 1.9" from the fly. I lit the fly with my halogen desk lamp. Paul . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1600×1200, 384KB http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/greenhilander.jpg Which camera? Mu

Response:

Very kind of you Paul, thanks.   The fly looks very nice, and the photo is good as well. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike, I just pushed the files up to my site. 1600×1200, 384KB http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/greenhilander.jpg 800×600, 69KB http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/greenhilander800×600.jpg If there are photos posted to APBF in the future that you want to see send me a note and I’ll load them for you. Paul

Response:

Thanks for putting it on-line; my _great_ (sic) provider does provide me with the replies, but not with the binary . Great looking fly! Love the married slips. Looking at works of art like these, I remember the late Hans de Groot, a well known flytier from the Netherlands. He was tying a salmon fly at an exhibition. Some guy was watching him, and asked Hans how much he wanted for it, once he finished. ‘I don’t sell flies’ he murmured under his beard, and slowly and meticulously continued tying his fly. ‘I give you a hundred guilders for it’ said the man, palming his wallet. ‘I don’t sell flies’, was the undisturbed reply. This went on, a sweating man bidding up, Hans slowly finishing his fly. When he was finished he looked at a young boy, who head eyed every step of the process. ‘Do you like it?’ ‘Yes’ ‘It’s yours, take it.’ The now red with anger guy looked at Hans, who calmly said.. ‘I told you. I don’t sell flies..’ He is missed. Herman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike, I just pushed the files up to my site. 1600×1200, 384KB http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/greenhilander.jpg 800×600, 69KB http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/greenhilander800×600.jpg If there are photos posted to APBF in the future that you want to see send me a note and I’ll load them for you. Paul Is there any way we could obtain some ROFF space somewhere for pictures like this, even temporary space for a week or so?  I am completely unable to [snip]

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Is there any way we could obtain some ROFF space somewhere for pictures like this, even temporary space for a week or so?  I am completely unable to obtain APBF, and I would certainly like to look at some of the things being posted there.

I don’t know how well it will work, but there’s a site… http://www.imira.com that will host photo albums. I just created a group for ROFF name: roff password: roffroff   (it wanted at least 6 characters) You can create various albums and subalbums there, but I haven’t tried it out yet.      - Ken

Response:

After 8<

Paul, very, very nice. May I suggest that you modify the width of the jpeg to 500-600 pixels? This will load the pic on a 15 or 17 inch monitor and allow the viewer to see the complete fly in all of it’s glory w/o having to use sidebars to view. again, very nice… you have talent. Walt

Response:

I cut it in half (800×600) and posted it to APBF for those who are diagonally challenged. I just got a 22" flat screen and the picture fits perfectly. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After 8< Paul, very, very nice. May I suggest that you modify the width of the jpeg to 500-600 pixels? This will load the pic on a 15 or 17 inch monitor and allow the viewer to see the complete fly in all of it’s glory w/o having to use sidebars to view. again, very nice… you have talent. Walt

Response:

That’s no highlander, where’s the kilt! But more to the point – will you fish it? Seriously, there’s a huge amount of work in that fly and the makings of a serious addiction.  I’m always amazed at the patience and artistry in these things.  Far more than this feeble tier can manage. Hats off. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

I cut it in half (800×600) and posted it to APBF for those who are diagonally challenged. I just got a 22" flat screen and the picture fits perfectly. Paul

I just posted nice things about your fly but I after hearing you brag about your 22′ flat screen I’m taking it all back.  <g Peter (still squinting at a bent tube) Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

I cut it in half (800×600) and posted it to APBF for those who are diagonally challenged. I just got a 22" flat screen and the picture fits perfectly. Paul

much better! walt

Response:

I just got a 22" flat screen and the picture fits perfectly.

And speaking of gear whores… –Steve

Response:

Is there any way we could obtain some ROFF space somewhere for pictures like this, even temporary space for a week or so?  I am completely unable to obtain APBF, and I would certainly like to look at some of the things being posted there. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I cut it in half (800×600) and posted it to APBF for those who are diagonally challenged. I just got a 22" flat screen and the picture fits perfectly. Paul

Response:

Purty fly!! Willi

Response:

Mike, I just pushed the files up to my site. 1600×1200, 384KB http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/greenhilander.jpg 800×600, 69KB http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/greenhilander800×600.jpg If there are photos posted to APBF in the future that you want to see send me a note and I’ll load them for you. Paul

Is there any way we could obtain some ROFF space somewhere for pictures like this, even temporary space for a week or so?  I am completely unable to

[snip]

Response:

After threatening to do it for a few years I sat down and tied a classic salmon fly. I tied a green highlander and posted a picture of it on APBF. There are a bunch of things I need to work on and I did take a couple of shortcuts but it’s not bad for a first try. This was a test for tying one on some antique blind eye salmon hooks I have. The picture is about 400KB and quite revealing. With the naked eye I thought the body was smooth. The naysayers of digital cameras might want to look at the detail that the camera captured.

Great photo of a true work of art! Thanks Paul. — "Of what service would militia be to you, when most probably you will not have a single musket in the State; for as arms are to be provided by Congress, they may or may not furnish them?" -Patrick Henry,  5 June 1788

Response:

After 8< Paul, very, very nice. May I suggest that you modify the width of the jpeg to 500-600 pixels? This will load the pic on a 15 or 17 inch monitor and allow the viewer to see the complete fly in all of it’s glory w/o having to use sidebars to view.

I still have no way of viewing ABPF, but a 500 pixel width will cover less than 1/3 of my screen (it’s the resolution, not the size of the monitor that matters). Guess it doesn’t matter, since I can’t see it, but if I could I’d prefer bigger images and people can shrink them if they have less resolution, it’s impossible to make them bigger from smaller images.      - Ken

Response:

After threatening to do it for a few years I sat down and tied a classic salmon fly. I tied a green highlander and posted a picture of it on APBF. There are a bunch of things I need to work on and I did take a couple of shortcuts but it’s not bad for a first try. This was a test for tying one on some antique blind eye salmon hooks I have. The picture is about 400KB and quite revealing. With the naked eye I thought the body was smooth. The naysayers of digital cameras might want to look at the detail that the camera captured.

Response:

Question:

The best brookie I ever caught at camp (14" in a small stream where a 10-incher is a good one) came to beat up red&white devil bug immediately after my dog took a dip in the bathtub-sized pool it was in.

Response:

…first thing a little kid learns when bas fishing farm ponds with his uncle is to walk softly…….the big stick was a fly rod……john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Seriously, I believe that trout can better hear your footsteps than they can hear your voice–especially if you are in the water.  Fish hear differently than humans but the ability of sound to travel through any given medium does not change.  Sound travelling in the air does not penetrate the water very well.  Sound travels extremely well in water, it just doesn’t make the transition from air to water very well.  You Footsteps can be enough, cf. the only time in my life I found a trout over 5 lb. actively feeding in daylight exactly as the books say.  This was about 25 year ago on the Pere Marquette, right at the Baldwin campground within sight of 20 to 30 tents. A big one showed about an hour before sundown and I timed the interval until its next rise — something between 7 and 12 minutes, and in exactly the same position.   After waiting appropriately I started drifting my dry through that lie, as carefully as possible.  The fish rose again bang on schedule — but a yard to one side and a bit downstream so did not see my fly.  So I carefully gathered the line and looked at my watch to time the next interval. — And within a couple of minutes two or three children ran along the streamside path.  I could feel the vibrations through my own boots.  And the fish never showed again…. — |        Carlsbad Springs, Ottawa, Canada        |

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A few years ago I was fishing the Tongariro river, here in New Zealand, in the company of a man in his eighties. We were fishing to visible fish, and lots of them, holding at the tail of a pool. We threw everything we had at them, all of these flies they greeted with complete disdain. "Only one way to fire them up,’ said my companion and tossed a thumping great rock in the midst of the fish at the tail of the pool. In less than a minute we were hooking up on just about every cast.????  On quiet days on just about any river here-abouts, we pray for a canoe, or rapid-running raft. Stirs the fish up no end. As I have heard Americans say, "Go figure". Well I’ll be damned, that’s a new one.  What about falling in, does that help? — Levi "So long, and thanks for all the fish."

Yes, falling in does help.  Why, just last week I had walked down to the creek after dinner to do some fishing before dark.  I’d been casting to rising fish for 15 or 20 minutes when I lost my footing and ended up in the water.  5 minutes later a kid rode by on his bike and asked if I had caught anything.  I said ‘no’ and told him that I had just fallen in.  He laughed.  2 or 3 casts later I caught a fish and another shortly after that.  Then the kid and his dad show up and start fishing just downstream of me and they’re catching fish too.  Before I fell in, I didn’t even have a bite.  After falling in, I caught fish. Go figure. Tom Before you buy.

Response:

wayno, who admittedly doesn’t look all that good in green tights

I could have lived without that one in my head. Joe F.

Response:

waldo writes: wayno, who admittedly doesn’t look all that good in green tights yeah a sad sight for sure…. but, laurie seemed to like the lace and frills. waldo <g

You shouldn’t talk — there is no way to describe you and those horrid green waders.  Well, maybe there is —-you look like a sick transvestite frog is those things.  If they check your luggage when you fly up to Portland, you will probably be arrested. Louie

Response:

You shouldn’t talk — there is no way to describe you and those horrid green waders.  Well, maybe there is —-you look like a sick transvestite frog is those things.  If they check your luggage when you fly up to Portland, you will probably be arrested.

Especially if they mistake me (sitting next to him on the flight) as a minor. –Steve

Response:

Seriously, I believe that trout can better hear your footsteps than they can hear your voice–especially if you are in the water.  Fish hear differently than humans but the ability of sound to travel through any given medium does not change.  Sound travelling in the air does not penetrate the water very well.  Sound travels extremely well in water, it just doesn’t make the transition from air to water very well.  You

Footsteps can be enough, cf. the only time in my life I found a trout over 5 lb. actively feeding in daylight exactly as the books say.  This was about 25 year ago on the Pere Marquette, right at the Baldwin campground within sight of 20 to 30 tents. A big one showed about an hour before sundown and I timed the interval until its next rise — something between 7 and 12 minutes, and in exactly the same position.   After waiting appropriately I started drifting my dry through that lie, as carefully as possible.  The fish rose again bang on schedule — but a yard to one side and a bit downstream so did not see my fly.  So I carefully gathered the line and looked at my watch to time the next interval. — And within a couple of minutes two or three children ran along the streamside path.  I could feel the vibrations through my own boots.  And the fish never showed again…. — |        Carlsbad Springs, Ottawa, Canada        |

Response:

When I lived in England, I used to fish the Great Ouse for pike.  Clear water and nothing moving was the rule of the day.  What my tactic came to be was casting after the boats that came down.  The boats would stir the minnows (gudgeon) out of the weeds and the pike new this and would move in with a slashing attack.  You could watch them flying into the center of the river as a boat lumbered by.  Great fishing.       Frank Reid Before you buy.

Response:

When I lived in England, I used to fish the Great Ouse for pike.  Clear water and nothing moving was the rule of the day.  What my tactic came to be was casting after the boats that came down.  The boats would stir the minnows (gudgeon) out of the weeds and the pike new this and would move in with a slashing attack.  You could watch them flying into the center of the river as a boat lumbered by.  Great fishing.

A similar thing occasionally happens on the Salmon R. (NY) during the salmon run.   Things can be slow for a while until a drift boat going through moves ‘em around a bit. Joe F.

Response:

Peter    hilarious.  and the poor misguided man claims he will outfish *me* at the maine clave.  *me*, the peter pan of the smokys! wayno, who admittedly doesn’t look all that good in green tights

Peter Pan, eh?  and exactly what are your intentions toward Tinker Bell? Peter the panning

Response:

I still think that loud wading will spook fish. On the other hand in the fall when jet boat from the lodge go by it does increase the feeding activity after they go by. I ‘m sure that the jet boat wake dislodges eggs on the river bottom causing a feeding frenzy.    Ian – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A few years ago I was fishing the Tongariro river, here in New Zealand, in the company of a man in his eighties. We were fishing to visible fish, and lots of them, holding at the tail of a pool. We threw everything we had at them, all of these flies they greeted with complete disdain. "Only one way to fire them up,’ said my companion and tossed a thumping great rock in the midst of the fish at the tail of the pool. In less than a minute we were hooking up on just about every cast.????  On quiet days on just about any river here-abouts, we pray for a canoe, or rapid-running raft. Stirs the fish up no end. As I have heard Americans say, "Go figure". Well I’ll be damned, that’s a new one.  What about falling in, does that help? — Levi "So long, and thanks for all the fish."

Response:

A few years ago I was fishing the Tongariro river, here in New Zealand, in the company of a man in his eighties. We were fishing to visible fish, and lots of them, holding at the tail of a pool. We threw everything we had at them, all of these flies they greeted with complete disdain. "Only one way to fire them up,’ said my companion and tossed a thumping great rock in the midst of the fish at the tail of the pool. In less than a minute we were hooking up on just about every cast.????  On quiet days on just about any river here-abouts, we pray for a canoe, or rapid-running raft. Stirs the fish up no end. As I have heard Americans say, "Go figure". — Tony Bishop  New Zealand http://bishfish.co.nz

Response:

A few years ago I was fishing the Tongariro river, here in New Zealand, in the company of a man in his eighties. We were fishing to visible fish, and lots of them, holding at the tail of a pool. We threw everything we had at them, all of these flies they greeted with complete disdain. "Only one way to fire them up,’ said my companion and tossed a thumping great rock in the midst of the fish at the tail of the pool. In less than a minute we were hooking up on just about every cast.????  On quiet days on just about any river here-abouts, we pray for a canoe, or rapid-running raft. Stirs the fish up no end. As I have heard Americans say, "Go figure".

Well I’ll be damned, that’s a new one.  What about falling in, does that help? — Levi "So long, and thanks for all the fish."

Response:

Do above the water noises (eg. someone talking loudly or calling out)

According Gary A. Borger in his book Nymphing, "Sound generated in water is louder than a similar sound generated on the bank.  Thus, the angler should not wade unless necessary, and then he should wade cautiously, quietly, and slowly.  Sounds in the air do not enter the water unless they are of explosive force; so talking won’t bother the fish at all. Padishar

Response:

[rocky store snipped] As I have heard Americans say, "Go figure". Well I’ll be damned, that’s a new one.  What about falling in, does that help? — Levi

Doubt it.  If that were true, Louie would be the best damn trout fisherman on the planet.  <g Peter

Response:

Doubt it.  If that were true, Louie would be the best damn trout fisherman on the planet.  <g

Well, that’s what he says, isn’t it? <g — Charlie…

Response:

Well I’ll be damned, that’s a new one.  What about falling in, does that help? — Levi Doubt it.  If that were true, Louie would be the best damn trout fisherman on the planet.  <g Peter

        hilarious.  and the poor misguided man claims he will outfish *me* at the maine clave.  *me*, the peter pan of the smokys! wayno, who admittedly doesn’t look all that good in green tights

Response:

        hilarious.  and the poor misguided man claims he will outfish *me* at the maine clave.  *me*, the peter pan of the smokys! wayno, who admittedly doesn’t look all that good in green tights

yeah a sad sight for sure…. but, laurie seemed to like the lace and frills. waldo <g

Response:

Do above the water noises (eg. someone talking loudly or calling out) put trout down? How about canoes passing by? How long should I wait or should I move on to another spot? Bob

Response:

Do above the water noises (eg. someone talking loudly or calling out) put trout down? How about canoes passing by? How long should I wait or should I move on to another spot? Bob

Of course talking puts trout down–why else would all those old guys constantly be telling their kids to be quiet? Seriously, I believe that trout can better hear your footsteps than they can hear your voice–especially if you are in the water.  Fish hear differently than humans but the ability of sound to travel through any given medium does not change.  Sound travelling in the air does not penetrate the water very well.  Sound travels extremely well in water, it just doesn’t make the transition from air to water very well.  You can’t hear above water human voices very well when you are underwater, and I doubt that trout can either.  You can, however, hear two rocks banged together underwater very well if you are underwater at the time.  You could yell all day when standing in a sandy bottom river and not put the fish down, but not talking while every third step you make is knocking rocks together underfoot would be pointless.  Even when you are on shore I think that the trout can hear your footsteps better than your voice. Canoes–maybe, but not too much if canoes are a common occurence and rarely contain fishermen.  If the fish associate canoes with being caught, well, all bets are off.  Oars banging the side of the canoe, etc. could put fish down quickly. How long to wait?  Not long.  Just keep fishing–move if you think the canoe has seriously disturbed the area but don’t just stop fishing for 10 minutes because a canoe went by with some screaming kids in it. Maybe the fish do take a few minutes to resume feeding, but why wait? The fish will resume feeding at their own pace and you want your fly in their sights when they do. Tom Before you buy.

Response:

Trout have no ears as such, but can sense vibrations very well indeed. Talking should not normally disturb them, but it may well disturb people who are trying to catch them, as will boom boxes, dogs, canoes, children throwing stones etc etc. Depending on circumstances, most fish will resume feeding within ten minutes to half an hour after being disturbed, so it is probably better to wait and try again, at least until the next lot of canoeists, children, dogs, etc appears, before roundly cursing, and going home. TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do above the water noises (eg. someone talking loudly or calling out) put trout down? How about canoes passing by? How long should I wait or should I move on to another spot? Bob

Response:

The other day I was fishing my home river. I was catching a trout now and then using a white miller caddis.As I rounded a bend I noticed a fish rising beside the shoreline alders. I was about to cast when out of the woods came a big branch followed by a very large black lab.Two kids,probably about 8 years old, were standing there grinning like all get out. The rest of the family was camped back in the woods. I made my way past the kids expecting that that was the end of any fishing in that stretch. Then I noticed a rise about 50′ upstream from the game of fetch. And then another. For the next half hour or so I cast to and caught about half a dozen fish no more than a 100′ from the on going water sports taking place  behind me. The noise obviously took a back seat in the fishes minds to the food floating over their heads. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do above the water noises (eg. someone talking loudly or calling out) put trout down? How about canoes passing by? How long should I wait or should I move on to another spot? Bob Of course talking puts trout down–why else would all those old guys constantly be telling their kids to be quiet? Seriously, I believe that trout can better hear your footsteps than they can hear your voice–especially if you are in the water.  Fish hear differently than humans but the ability of sound to travel through any given medium does not change.  Sound travelling in the air does not penetrate the water very well.  Sound travels extremely well in water, it just doesn’t make the transition from air to water very well.  You can’t hear above water human voices very well when you are underwater, and I doubt that trout can either.  You can, however, hear two rocks banged together underwater very well if you are underwater at the time.  You could yell all day when standing in a sandy bottom river and not put the fish down, but not talking while every third step you make is knocking rocks together underfoot would be pointless.  Even when you are on shore I think that the trout can hear your footsteps better than your voice. Canoes–maybe, but not too much if canoes are a common occurence and rarely contain fishermen.  If the fish associate canoes with being caught, well, all bets are off.  Oars banging the side of the canoe, etc. could put fish down quickly. How long to wait?  Not long.  Just keep fishing–move if you think the canoe has seriously disturbed the area but don’t just stop fishing for 10 minutes because a canoe went by with some screaming kids in it. Maybe the fish do take a few minutes to resume feeding, but why wait? The fish will resume feeding at their own pace and you want your fly in their sights when they do. Tom Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

(Sandy’s observations snipped) — /* Sandy Pittendrigh                  –oO0

I think we’ve been down these threads before Sandy, but they are worth repeating.  I asked the question once before and never got a definitive answer (like you ever do in this group); What about crushing ants and rolling your ant pattern around in a bottle of crushed ants?  Work? Ethical?  I was stopped and questioned at length once by a game warden because he thought my Bio-Strike looked like Power Bait!  I might try the ant thing this summer though.  Mossy Creek Browns are notoriously pickey! Just an additional note here about the scent thing.  A Wildlife Biologist/Fraternity Brother always swore by Oil of Anise.  Said fish and small game couldn’t resist the smell.  What if some enterprising floatant maker developed Anise scented floatant?  Ant scented, Mayfly scented floatant lines? — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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Just an additional note here about the scent thing.  A Wildlife Biologist/Fraternity Brother always swore by Oil of Anise.  Said fish and small game couldn’t resist the smell.  What if some enterprising floatant maker developed Anise scented floatant?  Ant scented, Mayfly scented floatant lines?

I know I’ve mentioned this here before; but it’s been a while, so here it is again.   The state regs in MD used to have a simple clause for artificials-only water, "if it smells like bait, it is bait." Joe F.

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I know I’ve mentioned this here before; but it’s been a while, so here it is again.   The state regs in MD used to have a simple clause for artificials-only water, "if it smells like bait, it is bait." Joe F.

If your gonna smear dead ants all over your fly then why not just hook a dead ant on the thing.  For that matter, why not dispense with the extra furry junk and just use the ant?  Let’s see, worms will hang on a hook easier than ants.  How about just using a worm and a big ball of strike indicater about 2 feet up the line?  Add to that a one piece bamboo "fly" rod and you have something which sounds familiar. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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Dear Chief the extra chili last night and they really enjoyed it. They howled alot during the night but seemed fine this A.M.  You forgot to take the extra set of underware I washed for you.  Perhaps you can borrow a pair from DEave, use your suspenders to keep them up.   Try to stay away from that Fontenberry guy, last time you went fishing with him you came home with alot of new dirty words and some screwed up opinions.  Take your celostral pill each  morning.your metamusal each night and don"t forget you should have one Manhatten each night. Your side of the tribe has never been able to handle firewater,

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"Wayne Hart" wrote <snip Just an additional note here about the scent thing.  A Wildlife Biologist/Fraternity Brother always swore by Oil of Anise.  Said fish and small game couldn’t resist the smell.  What if some enterprising floatant maker developed Anise scented floatant?  Ant scented, Mayfly scented floatant lines? Wayne

How about giving the whole area a rotten egg scent after one of Dave LaCourse’s clave breakfasts?  It isn’t from Anise but that’s close. Ernie

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Knowledge is power.

Excellent post Sandy. Mu, who spent the morning alternating between spinnerbaits and wooly buggers.  Didn’t bring my minoow trap though.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know I’ve mentioned this here before; but it’s been a while, so here it is again.   The state regs in MD used to have a simple clause for artificials-only water, "if it smells like bait, it is bait." Joe F. If your gonna smear dead ants all over your fly then why not just hook a dead ant on the thing.  For that matter, why not dispense with the extra furry junk and just use the ant?  Let’s see, worms will hang on a hook easier than ants.  How about just using a worm and a big ball of strike indicater about 2 feet up the line?  Add to that a one piece bamboo "fly" rod and you have something which sounds familiar. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine!

Man, y’all gotta complicate thangs…get a old field phone and a bucket…or for you wacky types, Nitromon S and a good defense lawyer…you can fish and check fer erl… R To crank is exercise…. To blast Dangerous!

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Joe Fleischman writes: I know I’ve mentioned this here before; but it’s been a while, so here it is again.   The state regs in MD used to have a simple clause for artificials-only water, "if it smells like bait, it is bait." Joe F.

Well hell, Joe!  I guess I can’t fish in my favorite waders.   Hmmmmm, come to think of it, they don’t smell like bait, they smell Dave

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Ernie Harrison writes: How about giving the whole area a rotten egg scent after one of Dave LaCourse’s clave breakfasts?  It isn’t from Anise but that’s close. Ernie

Ernie, damn it, I resent that!  My breakfasts at the clave are eaten by all with much gusto and no complaints.  If you ever get your scrawny ass to one of these claves, I will prove it to you, if I have to force feed the %&# eggs to ya!  <g And then I will get my buddy Jeffy to deep fry you an egg in bacon grease and we will force you to eat it.  Then, we’ll seal you in your waders, and send you on your way.   And people will shun you, forever and ever. Dave

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Indian Joe sends a smoke signal: Dear Chief the extra chili last night and they really enjoyed it. They howled alot during the night but seemed fine this A.M. You forgot to take the extra set of underware I washed for you.  Perhaps you can borrow a pair from DEave, use your suspenders to keep them up.   Try to stay away from that Fontenberry guy, last time you went fishing with him you came home with alot of new dirty words and some screwed up opinions. Take your celostral pill each  morning.your metamusal each night and don"t forget you should have one Manhatten each night. Your side of the tribe has never been able to handle firewater,

Golly, Forty, only you and I made IJ’s celebrity  list this time around.  That underware stuff — is that like Tupper-ware? Your Pal, DEave

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Charlie Choc: My breakfasts at the clave are eaten by all with much gusto and no complaints.   Never knew you were the cook at Tooties (where I ate *my* clave breakfasts)<g. — Charlie…

That’s right, you never stay at clave central.  Put it this way, if you liked Tooties, you will love the breakfast IJ and I will fix you.  (pssst, don’t eat Jeffy’s eggs). Dave LaCourse

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Charlie Choc: My breakfasts at the clave are eaten by all with much gusto and no complaints. Never knew you were the cook at Tooties (where I ate *my* clave breakfasts)<g. — Charlie… That’s right, you never stay at clave central.  Put it this way, if you liked Tooties, you will love the breakfast IJ and I will fix you.  (pssst, don’t eat Jeffy’s eggs). Dave LaCourse

i’m workin on lasagna this year…hmmm…now, lemmesee, where’s the bacon grease… jeff

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In the Great State of North Carolina, it is unlawful to desecrate the body of the dead.  Furthermore, anyone who *smears* the dead aunt onto a fly pattern is just plain sick!!

Umm, Rosanne Rosannadanna, that’s "ant".  Not "aunt", "ant". Regards, Jeff

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My God man, don’t unbuckle that wader belt up wind! Fishing tip for the day:  A fisherman in neoprenes with a tight wader belt can be used to replace a punctured pontoon if you feed him enuf Burro Chilli.  Hint: ensure he is secured with a slip knot for easy release and to allow for expansion.                                     Frank Reid

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Joe Fleischman writes: I know I’ve mentioned this here before; but it’s been a while, so here it is again.   The state regs in MD used to have a simple clause for artificials-only water, "if it smells like bait, it is bait." Joe F. Well hell, Joe!  I guess I can’t fish in my favorite waders.   Hmmmmm, come to think of it, they don’t smell like bait, they smell Dave

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Folks, In the Great State of North Carolina, it is unlawful to desecrate the body of the dead.  Furthermore, anyone who *smears* the dead aunt onto a fly pattern is just plain sick!!

If you just hold it close to aunt Bea, though, it’ll pick up some of that gravy smell and that should work. — Charlie…

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Folks, In the Great State of North Carolina, it is unlawful to desecrate the body of the dead.  Furthermore, anyone who *smears* the dead aunt onto a fly pattern is just plain sick!! Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know I’ve mentioned this here before; but it’s been a while, so here it is again.   The state regs in MD used to have a simple clause for artificials-only water, "if it smells like bait, it is bait." Joe F. If your gonna smear dead ants all over your fly then why not just hook a dead ant on the thing.  For that matter, why not dispense with the extra furry junk and just use the ant?  Let’s see, worms will hang on a hook easier than ants.  How about just using a worm and a big ball of strike indicater about 2 feet up the line?  Add to that a one piece bamboo "fly" rod and you have something which sounds familiar. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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You’ll have to ask Al for sure, but I think Tupper just wears big ol’ cotton panties…

Gee thanks.   That’s a visual I could have done without.  :-) Joe F.

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Nice post.  The only thing I would question is the part about lateral lines left out of the fly fishing definition – I think everyone agrees a muddler minnow is a fly, and part of its appeal is supposedly that it gives off enough vibration to get a trout’s interest. Anyway, I think part of the reason some people are attracted to fly fishing is to challenge themselves to fool trout.  The less real the "bait/fly" is, the more challenge there is in the deception.  The more real it is, the less challenge.  How much people care to challenge themselves in this respect seems to be a very personal thing.  The more natural the whole *scenario* is, the more challenge.  Some people will set up a chum line of real beetles to be followed by their own beetle imitation.  I don’t know how legal that is, but it’s not entirely natural. Knowledge is power.

– Regards, Jeff Before you buy.

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Golly, Forty, only you and I made IJ’s celebrity  list this time around.  That underware stuff — is that like Tupper-ware?

You’ll have to ask Al for sure, but I think Tupper just wears big ol’ cotton panties… — Charlie…

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My breakfasts at the clave are eaten by all with much gusto and no complaints.  

Never knew you were the cook at Tooties (where I ate *my* clave breakfasts)<g. — Charlie…

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Knowledge is power. I like to know things about fish behavior. I often try things just to see what will happen. Once my experiment is finished, my new experimental technique may or may not become a steady habit. But I seldom regret trying something once. There is a lot to be learned from bait fishing for instance. Years ago–when it was still legal to fish with sculpins in Montana–I used to go sculpin fishing once every two or three years. If you use barbless hooks and set the hook when you first detect the strike, you get to return the fish unharmed, if you choose to do so. More important, in a few short hours of sculpin fishing you can learn about large brown trout behavior what might take a lifetime of fishing with flies. I used bait fishing to make myself a better streamer fisherman. You can learn a lot about riffle feeding behavior too–by fishing with live nymphs. The feedback rate (the number of fish you catch) is so great you learn more in a very short period of time (when you fish with live nymphs). When fishing with live nymphs doesn’t work, for instance, you know the fish are asleep. You learn to recognize those times, and not to waste your time. When the fish *are* on the feed, you can catch so many more fish in such a short period of time, you don’t have to work with hunches anymore. You quickly learn how to size up a riffle: to know where the big ones lie and how the little ones line up behind. You learn how much weight to use, how much slack to throw, and how and when to wait for the strike. You can learn all of those things from fly fishing too, of course. But you learn it slower, over a much longer time period, and you reach conclusions with far less confidence when fly fishing—-because the feedback rate is so slow. We do what we want. I choose to bait fish occasionally because I learn from it. I fly fish frequently because I prefer to fish that way. PUNCHLINE:    The line between bait fishing and fly fishing can be substantially obscured.  I’ve been making soft-bodied, open-cell foam nymphs for years. They’re good looking nymphs. Because they’re soft, fish don’t spit them out. They swim around chewing on soft nymphs, which makes it easier to detect the strikes. With soft foam nymphs, you don’t necessarily get more strikes, but you definately feel more of them happen.   Then, the other day, while fishing in the Madison canyon, I found a fat golden stonefly nymph under a rock. I killed it on a whim: I crushed it up and squeezed the resulting paste into the body of a soft foam nymph. I rolled the soft foam nymph back and forth in the palm of my hand, in a puddle of bug paste. That (open-cell foam) nymph, at that point, became equally effective as a live bait. But I could cast it as far as my fly rod would reach. I caught one fish after another in a riffle I had been working steadily and unsuccessfully foam nymph, but without the bug paste. Now I’m not suggesting anybody else should do anything like this at all. But this is interesting information. Fish detect their prey by: 1) eye sight 2) by detecting vibrations with their lateral line 3) by smell. And smell, I think, is the most powerful attractant of all. Now that I think of it, perhaps fly fishing (for those who worry about categories and definitions) means fishing with a fly rod in a way that only targets the piscatorial visual cortex: IE with no help from the lateral line, nor from the (fishes) olfactory system. For those of us who enjoy breaking the rules occasionally (but still like casting with a fly rod), you can also target the lateral line–with lightweight fly rod wigglers. And you can target the olfactory system too (and still do long distance fly rod casting) by fishing with soft foam nymphs……and bug paste. — /* Sandy Pittendrigh                  –oO0  * http://nervana.montana.edu/~sandy  */

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Question:

3) a downlocking reelseat is easier to install when building the rod    yourself…because uplocking reelseat require that you cut a "pocket"    into the cork grip for the "cap" (not sure if that is the correct    word for the stationary, formed band which holds the forward "foot"    of the reel. I’d add to this:    4) A downlocking reelseat leaves less of a rod butt sticking out for your line to get tangled around.  HPH

             5) A downlocking reelseat is earier to attach a reel to, if the butts down, of course.   Gary C. "Lie ? Me ? Never!  No, no, no, the truth is far too much fun !" – Captain Hook

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… differences between up and downlocking reel seats …

Among those I know, the single biggest deciding factor was that the end-cap on down-locking seats had a tendency to break free (eg, the epoxy wouldn’t hold).  Long after they switched, they’d learn to highlite the advantages of up-locking. My own stats are ~40% of my downlocking end caps pop off within 3 years.  I usually retrieve the cap off the stream bottom (the reel too), severely scratch the inside of the cap, use a razor on the wood seat, and re-epoxy (avoid the 5 minute expoxies).  None of the repaired caps have since fallen off.     (——     (~~~~~~     (     (~~~~~~     (——                 ~ = roughed up interior walls of cap. use                     backside of a exacto razor tip.                 / = barb-like gouges into the wood reel seat.                     most reel seat wood is extremely hard, so                     cutting at an angle of 45 degrees to a depth                     of ~1/32" is all you’ll need. I personally prefer downlocking on trout rods, in part because I gain ~6" rod length in casting because my hand can grasp near the base of the cork. Thomas Gilg

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I’m thinking of building a fly rod (my first), which would probably be a five weight trout rod. Could anyone please illuminate the differences between up and downlocking reel seats for such a rod? Is one easier to work with than the other? I’ve noticed that all the commerical rods seem to use uplocking reel seats. Does anyone know why? Thanks in advance.

If you are using a cigar handle, I don’t think it matters too much.  If you are using a full or half wells handle, you want uplocking, so that the reel is as close to your hand as possible.  This improves the rod feel, in my less than humble opinion.   On the cigar handle, I find that I slide my hand down to the reel, over the reel seat.  I use slip ring reel seats when I build these rods.  I don’t have any problem with them loosening up.   — Andrew Brunette

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One other comment about uplocking reel seats.  I’ve found that I prefer them because when playing a large fish, it’s nice to have that extra extension (even though it’s small) should you put the reel against your chest.  I play larger steelhead and salmon that way using heavier rods…and that’s much of my fishing.  When I hook onto a good sized trout, I tend to revert to old habits every so often.  If you have an exposed rim, then it’s not a good idea to put it against your clothing.  So….that’s one other consideration but only relevant if you have my sometimes bad habit.  I’ve got trout rods that are both uplocking and downlocking….but I wouldn’t want my bigger rods to be downlocking. Barry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m thinking of building a fly rod (my first), which would probably be a five weight trout rod. Could anyone please illuminate the differences between up and downlocking reel seats for such a rod? Is one easier to work with than the other? I’ve noticed that all the commerical rods seem to use uplocking reel seats. Does anyone know why? Thanks in advance. Actually, I think you will find the comercial rods pretty well split betweenup locking and downlocking, but not many slide bands. Here are what I generally hear as to the advantages/disadvantages:    With uplocking you can get the line tangled around the rod butt easier.    With downlocking, your reel gets in the dirt if you put the rod butt on the ground.    There may be a better balance with your reel with one or the other. In general, I don’t think there is a big difference either way. Choose what looks and feels the best to you. Lyman Lyman G. Hughes Dallas, TX Ennis, MT

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m thinking of building a fly rod (my first), which would probably be a five weight trout rod. Could anyone please illuminate the differences between up and downlocking reel seats for such a rod? Is one easier to work with than the other? I’ve noticed that all the commerical rods seem to use uplocking reel seats. Does anyone know why? Thanks in advance. If you are using a cigar handle, I don’t think it matters too much.  If you are using a full or half wells handle, you want uplocking, so that the reel is as close to your hand as possible.  This improves the rod feel, in my less than humble opinion. On the cigar handle, I find that I slide my hand down to the reel, over the reel seat.  I use slip ring reel seats when I build these rods.  I don’t have any problem with them loosening up. — Andrew Brunette

from a usability (as opposed to construction of the rod) perspective: downlocked reels also seem to have a slightly clock pendulum effect – which makes the rod tip waver around a bit – on a light rod this matters a little more since you’ll be wanting to do delicate, accurate casting. hands do slide down to them too

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Rick Fletcher) writes:   To be serious, I’m interested in your reasons for rule 3.  If you could   describe what works best, I might be able to make up some chemical   reason for your preference.   —   "The scientist formerly known as Rick"   T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Don’t know the compositional difference, but the epoxy I use for rod building is much stronger than the 5 min stuff.  I believe the stuff is made by Flex-Coat, but I am not sure.  Anyway, I did some simple tests and the 5min ranked lowest among the 3 I tried cheers,    -tgades

If you’re looking for the strongest epoxies for a given application, you might  want to contact either Minnesota Mining (3M) Commercial Adhesives or ITW  adhesives of Danvers, MA. Both companies are listed in the Thomas Register and  3M has a full catalog listing there.

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I’m sorry Metaphacts, but tell that to my shoulder after hours of casting with a tip heavy rod.  Static balancing the rod makes a big difference in sensitivity and in reducing fatigue. Peter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In fact I do get it, I was trying to simplify.  Obviously, the balance point chanes with the amount of line out of reel, as well as the line through guides, and yes I am refering to the static balance point. Static balancing a rod/reel combo means nothing to the casting stroke. Ever.  . The point is some rods are tip heavier then others, If you don’t believe that, just go check some blanks at your local shop.  That does not make them necessarily ‘bad’ rods.  I have an rpl 490-4 that I love but is tip heavier then most.  Generally I find 4 piece rods to fall into this catagory quite often.   It’s a personal thing. The rod you describe is one I returned after fishing it. Absolutely hated the inability to work tough situations (spring creek from 30 feet or less). The rod I chose instead is a dream with a 12ft leader and 15 feet of line out the tip, yet can still heave 70 feet with ease, and accuracy. All with the same line size. That is a balanced rod. BTW, I have a 4 piece rod that is not tip heavy either. My point is that relative to the right rod choice for your casting style and fishing needs, uplocking vs downlocking is trivial. When nyphing, which is what I do alot with this rod, with line out , the balance point (down locking) is in a more desirable place then with the reel moved further up the blank (uplocking), which then shifts the balance point yet closer to the tip, making the rod less pleasing, more tiring to fish on a long 10 hr day.  Subtle, yet noticable. I suggest taping your reel (with line out and also with line on reel), to differenet positions at rear of blank to determine most comfortable balance point for you (static and kinetic).  then find a reel seat that places the reel roughly in that postition. After having said all that, the #1 reason I use downlocking seets is to squeeze an extra inch or two out of ’shorter’ rods, when I use them to nymph. Interesting. I too hold the reel when nymphing with my short rod in a difficult situation. But then my shortest rod is an 8′ 2 wt. Everything else is 9′. The real irony in this is that the stuff Orvis is doing in their Tridents is a more sensible way to balance an overly tip heavy rod. Adding mass in the grip at the hand balances the tip without the increased inertia of adding mass well away from the pivot point. Of course, because the weight is close to the pivot point, it will have to be greater than if you hung it out 6-8 inches behind it. Choosing the material thay have to dampen rod vibrations may or may not be a bonus, depending on how much of the input is damped out along with the excessive vibration. Seems to me like the long way home so to speak. Better to spend a lot more time picking the right blank (by casting finished rods w/ line, leader, and fly) than to be so concerned with reel seats. The right fishing tool is always better, regardless of the reel seat. Cheers, gp

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Hi all, Out here in California we have no down locking reel seats to speaks of. I guess most of the fly fishers out here prefer uplocks. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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No Winstons in California???  I knew that state was weird. Just Kidding. Bob

: Hi all, : Out here in California we have no down locking reel seats to speaks of. : I guess most of the fly fishers out here prefer uplocks.

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I’ve got a different take on down- and up-locking reel seats. If you think of a pendulum, the reel rides farther back of your hand with a down-locking seat. This little 1/2-1" difference can help balance the rod a little more. There’s nothing worse than a top-heavy rod. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could anyone please illuminate the differences between up and downlocking reel seats for such a rod? Is one easier to work with than the other? I’ve noticed that all the commerical rods seem to use uplocking reel seats. Does anyone know why?

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THE REAL REASON FOR UPLOCKING REEL SEATS: (It’s got nothing to do with center of balance) OK, suppose you have a downlocking real seat.  You screw the locking band down tight.  This forces the reel seat down into the cap, which is attached to the reel seat… how? If it is an all-aluminum seat, it’s probably spot-welded. If you have a wooden insert, it’s probably epoxied on.  So one day you are out fishing, waist deep in a fast riffle.  You notice that your reel feels a little loose, so you tighten the locking band down a little tighter, and then the cap pops off and disappears downstream, never to be seen again.  You make a grab for your reel, but you are too slow and it plummets to the bottom (if you’re lucky; if your drag is set loose and the current is fast, the reel sails off downstream until all of the line and backing are peeled off.) This could happen to you.  (It happened to me…) The two morals of the story: 1.  Never buy another rod with a downlocking reel seat.  With an uplocking seat, the stress is on the threaded sleeve on the end of the reel seat, which at least has a larger glueing surface, so is less likely come adrift. 2.  Never leave the house without a roll of black electricians tape.  A few turns of black tape will hold your reel onto that broken reel seat until you can get it fixed.  In fact, you may find that the tape seems to hold the reel on more solidly than the reel seat did, and not bother to get it fixed. — Kevin Vang Dept. of Mathematics Minot State University Minot, ND 58707

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: And to that I would add: : 3. Never buy a rod from someone who uses 5 minute epoxy to glue up a : reel seat. Geez Phil, what do you suggest?  Should we hold out for the 10 minute stuff or go all the way to 2 hours? To be serious, I’m interested in your reasons for rule 3.  If you could describe what works best, I might be able to make up some chemical reason for your preference. — "The scientist formerly known as Rick" T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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In fact I do get it, I was trying to simplify.  Obviously, the balance point chanes with the amount of line out of reel, as well as the line through guides, and yes I am refering to the static balance point.

Static balancing a rod/reel combo means nothing to the casting stroke. Ever.   . The point is some rods are tip heavier then others, If you don’t believe that, just go check some blanks at your local shop.  That does not make them necessarily ‘bad’ rods.  I have an rpl 490-4 that I love but is tip heavier then most.  Generally I find 4 piece rods to fall into this catagory quite often.  

It’s a personal thing. The rod you describe is one I returned after fishing it.  Absolutely hated the inability to work tough situations (spring creek from 30  feet or less). The rod I chose instead is a dream with a 12ft leader and 15  feet of line out the tip, yet can still heave 70 feet with ease, and accuracy.  All with the same line size. That is a balanced rod. BTW, I have a 4 piece rod that is not tip heavy either. My point is that relative to the right rod choice for your casting style and  fishing needs, uplocking vs downlocking is trivial. When nyphing, which is what I do alot with this rod, with line out , the balance point (down locking) is in a more desirable place then with the reel moved further up the blank (uplocking), which then shifts the balance point yet closer to the tip, making the rod less pleasing, more tiring to fish on a long 10 hr day.  Subtle, yet noticable. I suggest taping your reel (with line out and also with line on reel), to differenet positions at rear of blank to determine most comfortable balance point for you (static and kinetic).  then find a reel seat that places the reel roughly in that postition. After having said all that, the #1 reason I use downlocking seets is to squeeze an extra inch or two out of ’shorter’ rods, when I use them to nymph.

Interesting. I too hold the reel when nymphing with my short rod in a difficult  situation. But then my shortest rod is an 8′ 2 wt. Everything else is 9′. The real irony in this is that the stuff Orvis is doing in their Tridents is a  more sensible way to balance an overly tip heavy rod. Adding mass in the grip  at the hand balances the tip without the increased inertia of adding mass well  away from the pivot point. Of course, because the weight is close to the pivot  point, it will have to be greater than if you hung it out 6-8 inches behind  it. Choosing the material thay have to dampen rod vibrations may or may not be  a bonus, depending on how much of the input is damped out along with the  excessive vibration. Seems to me like the long way home so to speak. Better to spend a lot more time  picking the right blank (by casting finished rods w/ line, leader, and fly)  than to be so concerned with reel seats. The right fishing tool is always  better, regardless of the reel seat. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Cheers, gp

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Downlocking reel seats hold the reel away from your hand and the centre of rotation of the rod while casting. This increases the momentum and makes it harder to stop the rod on the back and forward casting strokes. Uplocking reel seats move the mass the reel towards the centre of the palm and reduce the momentum. Making it easier to accelerate and deccelerate the rod during casting. Jon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – of a pendulum, the reel rides farther back of your hand with a down-locking seat. This little 1/2-1" difference can help balance the rod a little more. There’s nothing worse than a top-heavy rod. Could anyone please illuminate the differences between up and downlocking reel seats for such a rod? Is one easier to work with than the other? I’ve noticed that all the commerical rods seem to use uplocking reel seats. Does anyone know why?

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I’ve got a different take on down- and up-locking reel seats. If you think of a pendulum, the reel rides farther back of your hand with a down-locking seat. This little 1/2-1" difference can help balance the rod a little more. There’s nothing worse than a top-heavy rod.

That’s not balance.  A balanced outfit  will have a minimum amount of weight as  close to the casting hand as possible. Now you know why Vince Marinaro loved the Orvis CFO. It was the lightest reel  available at the time.

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 I think the point being made is that in many cases you need a ‘heavier’ reel to balance the rod.  So when assembled, balance point is somewhere in top third of grip.  By using a downlocking seat, the reel is moved further back, facilitating the use of a lighter reel while still keeping balance point in the top third of the grip…get it? Cheers, gp – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got a different take on down- and up-locking reel seats. If you think of a pendulum, the reel rides farther back of your hand with a down-locking seat. This little 1/2-1" difference can help balance the rod a little more. There’s nothing worse than a top-heavy rod. That’s not balance.  A balanced outfit  will have a minimum amount of weight as close to the casting hand as possible. Now you know why Vince Marinaro loved the Orvis CFO. It was the lightest reel available at the time.

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I think the point being made is that in many cases you need a ‘heavier’ reel to balance the rod.  So when assembled, balance point is somewhere in top third of grip.  By using a downlocking seat, the reel is moved further back, facilitating the use of a lighter reel while still keeping balance point in the top third of the grip…get it? Cheers, gp

Uh no. I don’t think you do get it. What you are speaking of is static balance.  It is totally irrelevant. As soon as line is out and you are trying to load  the rod, you have moved the balance point. Since the amount of weight between  the reel and the tip vary with line weight, taper, place in the line taper,  and even the amount of line you have off the reel at your feet at the time,  the balance point you describe changes with every cast.  If you want the best control of the rod, remove the reel and let the line lay  in coils at  your feet. Cast with no reel at all. Start, stop, change of  direction, and all manner of casting become more precise than with any reel,  light or heavy. Adding weight only takes away from the precision, so just pick  what you like. Tip heavy rods that you are trying to "balance" with a heavy reel  are just  that, tip heavy. No matter whose name is on them, they’re probably not very  good fishing tools. However, by  loading some of the newer technology rods with a very heavy reel,  you can damp out some of the undesirable rod vibration that occur in starting,  stopping, and changing direction. But a better idea might be to buy a rod that  doesn’t require such damping in the first place. As for uplocking and downlocking, there have been a number of preferences  expressed. I own them both.  Unless you are custom ordering a rod, you might  want to choose the rod before you worry about which way the reel seat works.

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In fact I do get it, I was trying to simplify.  Obviously, the balance point chanes with the amount of line out of reel, as well as the line through guides, and yes I am refering to the static balance point.  . The point is some rods are tip heavier then others, If you don’t believe that, just go check some blanks at your local shop.  That does not make them necessarily ‘bad’ rods.  I have an rpl 490-4 that I love but is tip heavier then most.  Generally I find 4 piece rods to fall into this catagory quite often.   When nyphing, which is what I do alot with this rod, with line out , the balance point (down locking) is in a more desirable place then with the reel moved further up the blank (uplocking), which then shifts the balance point yet closer to the tip, making the rod less pleasing, more tiring to fish on a long 10 hr day.  Subtle, yet noticable. I suggest taping your reel (with line out and also with line on reel), to differenet positions at rear of blank to determine most comfortable balance point for you (static and kinetic).  then find a reel seat that places the reel roughly in that postition. After having said all that, the #1 reason I use downlocking seets is to squeeze an extra inch or two out of ’shorter’ rods, when I use them to nymph. Cheers, gp – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think the point being made is that in many cases you need a ‘heavier’ reel to balance the rod.  So when assembled, balance point is somewhere in top third of grip.  By using a downlocking seat, the reel is moved further back, facilitating the use of a lighter reel while still keeping balance point in the top third of the grip…get it? Cheers, gp Uh no. I don’t think you do get it. What you are speaking of is static balance. It is totally irrelevant. As soon as line is out and you are trying to load the rod, you have moved the balance point. Since the amount of weight between the reel and the tip vary with line weight, taper, place in the line taper, and even the amount of line you have off the reel at your feet at the time, the balance point you describe changes with every cast. If you want the best control of the rod, remove the reel and let the line lay in coils at  your feet. Cast with no reel at all. Start, stop, change of direction, and all manner of casting become more precise than with any reel, light or heavy. Adding weight only takes away from the precision, so just pick what you like. Tip heavy rods that you are trying to "balance" with a heavy reel  are just that, tip heavy. No matter whose name is on them, they’re probably not very good fishing tools. However, by  loading some of the newer technology rods with a very heavy reel, you can damp out some of the undesirable rod vibration that occur in starting, stopping, and changing direction. But a better idea might be to buy a rod that doesn’t require such damping in the first place. As for uplocking and downlocking, there have been a number of preferences expressed. I own them both.  Unless you are custom ordering a rod, you might want to choose the rod before you worry about which way the reel seat works.

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The differences… 1) an uplocking reelseat puts the reel closer to your hand which is less    tiring (moment = force x length) IF you have a lighter, shorter rod 2) your hand is less likely to loosen the reelseat in an uplocking seat    (but brush is more likely to loosen it) 3) a downlocking reelseat is easier to install when building the rod    yourself…because uplocking reelseat require that you cut a "pocket"    into the cork grip for the "cap" (not sure if that is the correct    word for the stationary, formed band which holds the forward "foot"    of the reel. Hope this helps. George B. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m thinking of building a fly rod (my first), which would probably be a five weight trout rod. Could anyone please illuminate the differences between up and downlocking reel seats for such a rod? Is one easier to work with than the other? I’ve noticed that all the commerical rods seem to use uplocking reel seats. Does anyone know why? Thanks in advance.

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I prefer uplocking.  When casting all day my hand tends to work its way down toward the reel.  Having the reel at the bottom of the grip stops my hand,  and the rod seems to balance better.   I have built a couple of rods using slip rings, but don’t recommend them.  I have had to fish my reel out of the water too often. Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m thinking of building a fly rod (my first), which would probably be a five weight trout rod. Could anyone please illuminate the differences between up and downlocking reel seats for such a rod? Is one easier to work with than the other? Richard T. Whitney

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The differences… 1) an uplocking reelseat puts the reel closer to your hand which is less    tiring (moment = force x length) IF you have a lighter, shorter rod 2) your hand is less likely to loosen the reelseat in an uplocking seat    (but brush is more likely to loosen it) 3) a downlocking reelseat is easier to install when building the rod    yourself…because uplocking reelseat require that you cut a "pocket"    into the cork grip for the "cap" (not sure if that is the correct    word for the stationary, formed band which holds the forward "foot"    of the reel.

I’d add to this:         4) A downlocking reelseat leaves less of a rod butt sticking out for your line to get tangled around.  HPH

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I’m thinking of building a fly rod (my first), which would probably be a five weight trout rod. Could anyone please illuminate the differences between up and downlocking reel seats for such a rod? Is one easier to work with than the other? I’ve noticed that all the commerical rods seem to use uplocking reel seats. Does anyone know why? Thanks in advance.

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I’m thinking of building a fly rod (my first), which would probably be a five weight trout rod. Could anyone please illuminate the differences between up and downlocking reel seats for such a rod? Is one easier to work with than the other? I’ve noticed that all the commerical rods seem to use uplocking reel seats. Does anyone know why? Thanks in advance.

i have an old rod with a down-locking reel seat.  i noticed when my grip was low the reel seat would loosen.  i haven’t had any problems with this on up-locking reel seats. if you are building your rod, i would recommend an up-locking reel seat, since you can do either. chris

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I’m thinking of building a fly rod (my first), which would probably be a five weight trout rod. Could anyone please illuminate the differences between up and downlocking reel seats for such a rod? Is one easier to work with than the other? I’ve noticed that all the commerical rods seem to use uplocking reel seats. Does anyone know why? Thanks in advance.

Actually, I think you will find the comercial rods pretty well split betweenup locking and downlocking, but not many slide bands. Here are what I generally hear as to the advantages/disadvantages:         With uplocking you can get the line tangled around the rod butt easier.         With downlocking, your reel gets in the dirt if you put the rod butt on the ground.         There may be a better balance with your reel with one or the other. In general, I don’t think there is a big difference either way. Choose what looks and feels the best to you. Lyman Lyman G. Hughes Dallas, TX Ennis, MT

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Hello, Many years ago, after I bought my first rod, an Orvis Far and Fine with downlocking reel seat, I read somewhere that uplocking reel seats are less vulnerable to loosening in use.  I have subsequently found by experience that this is true.  Evidently, gravity tends to load the locking ring of the uplocking seat thus helping it to stay locked, but it unloads the screw threads of downlocking seats. Regards, Yuji Sakuma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, I think you will find the comercial rods pretty well split betweenup locking and downlocking, but not many slide bands. Here are what I generally hear as to the advantages/disadvantages:         With uplocking you can get the line tangled around the rod butt easier.         With downlocking, your reel gets in the dirt if you put the rod butt on the ground.         There may be a better balance with your reel with one or the other. In general, I don’t think there is a big difference either way. Choose what looks and feels the best to you. Lyman Lyman G. Hughes Dallas, TX Ennis, MT

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Question:

As I was planning yet another stitched gife for my MIL, I realized I had never made anything for my FIL. Granted, DH didn’t have much to do with him for the first several years of our marriage (MIL & FIL had been divorced in the 70s) but everything is friendly now & MIL & FIL are married again (yes, to each other).  DH suggested stitching something on a fishing hat.  Has anyone tried this?  If so, what did you stitch?  He loves cat fish & is a lake/boat fisherman (as opposed to a stream/fly fisherman). Any ideas??? Liz

Checked my index for sports-fishing and found      Omnibook of Quickies-has a catfish, and other fishy things,             including hat!      Cross Stitcher Mag, June 96 and Aug 96- fishing motifs Also, I have seen hats & visors with a cross-stitch insert at Michael’s and elsewhere. Good luck! Kathy Hoover

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DH suggested stitching something on a fishing hat.  Has anyone tried this?  If so, what did you stitch?  He loves cat fish & is a lake/boat fisherman (as opposed to a stream/fly fisherman). Any ideas??? Liz well….i saw a t-shirt that said "women want me…fish fear me…" lol cari

Cute idea.:-))  The mental picture I get when I connect it with my FIL is funnier than the original T shirt could ever be. ))))) Liz

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As I was planning yet another stitched gife for my MIL, I realized I had never made anything for my FIL. Granted, DH didn’t have much to do with him for the first several years of our marriage (MIL & FIL had been divorced in the 70s) but everything is friendly now & MIL & FIL are married again (yes, to each other).  DH suggested stitching something on a fishing hat.  Has anyone tried this?  If so, what did you stitch?  He loves cat fish & is a lake/boat fisherman (as opposed to a stream/fly fisherman). Any ideas??? Liz

They make ballcaps with an aida panel already in it.  I’ve never tried stitching on a  hat myself so I don’t know how hard it would be. There are lots of fish patterns in magazines and catalogs, but most I’ve seen are a typical trout jumping, or lures or something.  I do remember one in a mag several years back with different lake fish in it.  I have no idea which mag or issue but I’ll look through mine and see if I can find it.  You could also design something yourself, along th lines of "world’s greatest fisherman" etc. Karen

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Question:

For your free brochure featuring the funniest in t-shirts,  E-mail the shirtguy for info.  Guaranteed to help you look better catching that whopper!!  Good Fishing.

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For your free brochure featuring the funniest in t-shirts,  E-mail the shirtguy for info.  Guaranteed to help you look better catching that whopper!!  Good Fishing.

This is not posted by the intelekchualy advanced, flyfishing supremo, humorous South African Bruce which you have all come to know and admire. (I realy crack myself up sometimes). I would never attempt to sell t-shirts via roff. Hell hath no fury as a flyfisherman spammed. Cheers Bruce….

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Question:

Anyone out there heard of a good trailing shuck imitation.  In jams, I’ve used panty-hose, and of course z-lon when tying.

Aunt Lydia’s rug and craft yarn.

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Anyone out there heard of a good trailing shuck imitation.  In jams, I’ve used panty-hose, and of course z-lon when tying.  I want something a little better. Any suggestions? Thanks- J W Kramer @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@   "See Dick fly-fish.    See Dick catch fish.    See Dick kill fish."           DON’T BE A DICK!  PRACTICE AND TEACH CATCH AND RELEASE @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@

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Question:

Does anyone know of a fishing expo in the NYC area. A friend of mine said there is one comming to boston. Just curious if it would make it to NYC, it would save me a road trip. Thanks, DAVE — Dave Blizard "Pork, the other white meat."

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There is a Fly Fishing Only show the second satruday in March in White Plains, NY by the Theodore Fly Fishers.  It’s a really great show done with style.  Not too crowded as you would expect at the Suffern Show. Have fun!

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Question:

I bought a vest from an outfit in Montana called Goldeneye.  I got their shortie vest.  Supplex material, many pockets, YKK zippers, etc.

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I bought a vest from an outfit in Montana called Goldeneye.  I got their shortie vest.  Supplex material, many pockets, YKK zippers, etc.

I got something pretty cool for Christmas.  It’s made by  Liegh, and is a kind of non-vest.  Two pouches, like fanny packs front and rear held on by a harness.  It seems to hold quite a bit of gear, and include two water bottles in easy to get to holders.  Has a nice net loder as well.  I haven’t gone out with it, but I’m certain I’ll like it.  I think it goes in the $50.00 range, and comes in several colors.  I hope this helps, and this posting doesn’t screw things on this thread up too much. Chaz

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Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Path:

caen!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ao665 Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 28 Am looking to buy a budget priced vest (under $50).  Am considering Cabela, LL. Bean, and FeatherCraft offerings.  Any experience or ideas?

Several stores are having sales at his time of year.  I just found two local stores that were selling Patagonia vests for 40% off.  I got the vertical vest for only $60.00.  It’s a great vest, much better than the Orvis Tac-L-Pak which is already ripping apart after only 2 months of use (I am going to try to see if Orvis will take it back).  My girlfriend also found a good deal by going to the Columbia Clothing Outlet store where she found a "Henry’s Fork" vest for $30.00.  This is also much higher quality than the Orvis. Good luck. – Steve

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Am looking to buy a budget priced vest (under $50).  Am considering Cabela, LL. Bean, and FeatherCraft offerings.  Any experience or ideas?

My wife bought me an LL Bean Guide vest ($55 US).  It is made of a fairly light fabric, but it is 65% polyester/35%cotton so it should endure.  (The catalogue says it is 65% cotton but the label says that polester predominates.)  Because of the high polyester content it dries quickly. It does not have a high tech collar like an Orvis Tac-L-Pak, but it is comfortable anyway. It has lots of pockets.  The small ones beside your navel will hold a 3X5X1.5 inch box.  The little one on the right chest pocket will hol a nymph wallet.  The one I like best, though, is the big gusseted cargo pouch on the back.  It is just like the game pouch on my grouse vest.  It is very handy for carrying water, sanwiches, and a raincoat.  It is big enough that I can stuff my landing net in there while I bust through the alders. Don’t you wish you had a wife like mine? Keep your stick on the ice. Thos.

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Am looking to buy a budget priced vest (under $50).  Am considering Cabela, LL. Bean, and FeatherCraft offerings.  Any experience or ideas?

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Am looking to buy a budget priced vest (under $50).  Am considering Cabela, LL. Bean, and FeatherCraft offerings.  Any experience or ideas?

A friend has one from Cabellas and likes it.  In general, get one with more pockets than you think you can use — at some point, you’ll be glad you have them!  Its hard via the mail, but watch out for thin fabric and low-quality workmanship.  Return it if you think it won’t hold up.  Both Cabellas and Bean are real good about exchanges or refunds if you’re not happy. Enjoy, Nat Davis

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