Question:

There was a time when I used to bring a portable radio to listen to music.  During all this time, it seemed to me that the fishing was not as good.  So one day, I turned off the radio.  Lo and behold…..the fishing improved.

Ever been diving off of a boat that was playing a stereo.  You can hear the music as if it was next to you.  One time I was diving off of my boat and there was a dive boat about 30 yards away.  I could hear Bob Marley shooting the sheriff while I was down there.  It was great,  I was diving and listening to some good tunes…can’t beat that. JAC

Response:

i was in a small tournament one day on the chesapeake bay [maryland]… The tournament was for bragging rights only…and beer/hot dogs… We went to our spot to fish..anchored up with many other hopeful fishermen… I put on some ‘oldies ‘ FM station and passed out the beer as we sat with poles in the rod holders  and sot the bull about nothing…trivial things..  We were loud …and the music was turned up.   At times we  shouted   ‘fish-ON!’ ‘Get the net! ‘ When the day was over our boat landed the fish to win the day and the bragging rights for the whole year! I suppose your idea of quiet is good and best for most fishing [particularly in shallow waters or waters normally without a lot of shipping noise...] But there is some evidence [not in my hands] that noise attracts or gets the attention of fish.   So, if you have some delicious smell there at the same time I suppose there will be some to venture  to your fish hook and grab-it. Fishing is for fun….   Our local fish like rock-and -roll ! As for the sound waves projected from a fish finder…well each transducer is designed with a predetermined ‘frequency’   and it would be devastating to the manufacturer of  a fishfinder that is designed to transmit signals that piss off fish and scatter them away from the boat.   So, they would pay you big bucks to keep your mouth shut and not tell the world that their fish finder scares fish. Over the years [ 30 +  years ] .. manufacturers chose mostly low frequency signals and have increased the power and frequency of their transmitted signals. There was a greater need for clarity and depth of operation and distinction between sizes of fish and underwater structure.    If  you made noise in shallow water , then it is more like heard by a fish than if you were in much deeper water .  Sound dissipates in water as it does in air.   Noise comes from many sources like your engine and adjacent boat engines. THE BOTTOM LINE IS Your Depth Finder Pinging is Not your fishing problem. Although I may have said little to convince you of this. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     At 10 feet ….. you can hear the ticking yourself but you don’t feel anything.  However, fish are much more sensitive than we are.  So….when I find the structure I am looking for or a school of fish, I turn off my sonar.  I have tried it and it seems that I have better success.     There was a time when I used to bring a portable radio to listen to music.  During all this time, it seemed to me that the fishing was not as good.  So one day, I turned off the radio.  Lo and behold…..the fishing improved.  I guess the vibrations from the radio sitting directly on the wooden seats of the rowboat were enough to repel a lot of the fish.  Ever since then, I use ear plugs and a walkman.     I have dozens of experiences where noise has affected fish behaviour…..most in a negative way.   But, I have to admit that most of the fishing I do is for brook trout in lakes and ponds.     Walleye do not seem to be bothered by noise or a nearby boat.  Whitefish are extremely shy.  On those late summer evenings with big brook trout sipping on tiny flies in the middle of a lake, the only way I can catch any is by silently sliding up on them with my canoe and then making long delicate fly casts with an extra long (15 to 20 foot) leader with 1 lb test tippet.  No margin for error here.  It also helps to sit tight and wait to see in what direction the fish is feeding, measuring the distances between the rises and then casting the same distance in front of the travelling fish.     Don’t expect to catch many fish this way.  The magic hour only lasts about 30 minutes, therefore you don’t have enough time than for 2 or 3 approaches. Yes the fishfinder pings fish.    For an interesting test, place your hand in the water under the transducer, palm downward.  You will feel small tingling on the back of your hand while the fishfinder is pinging.    In places where many fishermen congregate together and use fish finders, I have noticed that the fishing is usually poor. What do you feel when you are 10 ft. under the transducer?                                 Capt. Bill

Response:

Yes the fishfinder pings fish.

….yeah but, do the fish have an IP address?!? (sorry…  Unix admin joke here, people) Butch Ammon My web page: http://members.aol.com/ammonc/butch.html

Response:

Yes the fishfinder pings fish. ….yeah but, do the fish have an IP address?!? (sorry…  Unix admin joke here, people) Butch Ammon My web page: http://members.aol.com/ammonc/butch.html

Sure…a deep set of sixes… — Harry Krause I practice moderation to excess

Response:

    At 10 feet ….. you can hear the ticking yourself but you don’t feel anything.  However, fish are much more sensitive than we are.  So….when I find the structure I am looking for or a school of fish, I turn off my sonar.  I have tried it and it seems that I have better success.     There was a time when I used to bring a portable radio to listen to music.  During all this time, it seemed to me that the fishing was not as good.  So one day, I turned off the radio.  Lo and behold…..the fishing improved.  I guess the vibrations from the radio sitting directly on the wooden seats of the rowboat were enough to repel a lot of the fish.  Ever since then, I use ear plugs and a walkman.     I have dozens of experiences where noise has affected fish behaviour…..most in a negative way.   But, I have to admit that most of the fishing I do is for brook trout in lakes and ponds.     Walleye do not seem to be bothered by noise or a nearby boat.  Whitefish are extremely shy.  On those late summer evenings with big brook trout sipping on tiny flies in the middle of a lake, the only way I can catch any is by silently sliding up on them with my canoe and then making long delicate fly casts with an extra long (15 to 20 foot) leader with 1 lb test tippet.  No margin for error here.  It also helps to sit tight and wait to see in what direction the fish is feeding, measuring the distances between the rises and then casting the same distance in front of the travelling fish.     Don’t expect to catch many fish this way.  The magic hour only lasts about 30 minutes, therefore you don’t have enough time than for 2 or 3 approaches. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes the fishfinder pings fish.    For an interesting test, place your hand in the water under the transducer, palm downward.  You will feel small tingling on the back of your hand while the fishfinder is pinging.    In places where many fishermen congregate together and use fish finders, I have noticed that the fishing is usually poor. What do you feel when you are 10 ft. under the transducer?                                 Capt. Bill

Response:

Yes the fishfinder pings fish.    For an interesting test, place your hand in the water under the transducer, palm downward.  You will feel small tingling on the back of your hand while the fishfinder is pinging.    In places where many fishermen congregate together and use fish finders, I have noticed that the fishing is usually poor.

What do you feel when you are 10 ft. under the transducer?                                 Capt. Bill

Response:

My 13 year old made a very good observation the other day. he asked me if I had noticed that ever since we got a fish finder we have caught way less fish. It got me to thinking. Could that thing be ‘pinging’ the fish? I know they hunt by sensing electrical fields…. so? Also, I have another theory – that somweher in China a programmer goes to sleep every night laughing at the ‘fish’ he has programmed to appear on my scope. Rob

Response:

Yes the fishfinder pings fish.     For an interesting test, place your hand in the water under the transducer, palm downward.  You will feel small tingling on the back of your hand while the fishfinder is pinging.     In places where many fishermen congregate together and use fish finders, I have noticed that the fishing is usually poor. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My 13 year old made a very good observation the other day. he asked me if I had noticed that ever since we got a fish finder we have caught way less fish. It got me to thinking. Could that thing be ‘pinging’ the fish? I know they hunt by sensing electrical fields…. so? Also, I have another theory – that somweher in China a programmer goes to sleep every night laughing at the ‘fish’ he has programmed to appear on my scope. Rob

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why don’t you keep your opinions to yourself.  And stay off off this newsgroup. Please.  If I have to say it again, I won’t be this nice, jerk. He is a mass murderer.  Murder is murder. Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm He’s a piece of trash. The death penality is too easy for him. — Harry Krause This is still a dangerous world. It’s a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mential losses. -GW Bush

A McVeigh fan, eh? — Harry Krause And if he continues that, I’m going to tell the nation what I think about him as a human being and a person. -GW Bush

Response:

Take this to another group.  Mcviegh doesn’t flyfish. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He is a mass murderer.  Murder is murder. Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

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So we got what…20 or so replies on this thread all cross posted… Fists now ready to fly… Figure out what a *TROLL* is yet Knuckleheads??? "Comments: This message did not originate from the Sender address above.  It was remailed automatically by anonymizing remailer software.  Please report problems or inappropriate use to the

Response:

Why don’t you keep your opinions to yourself.  And stay off off this newsgroup. Please.  If I have to say it again, I won’t be this nice, jerk. He’s a piece of trash. The death penality is too easy for him. A McVeigh fan, eh?

Nah. He’s got this weird, kinky thing going with GI Joe…

Response:

On May 16th he won’t be doing much except gasping and gurgling……So no he doesn’t fly fish, nor does he collect gijoes, or travel, or figure blowflies……. That will teach him to murder 19 little kids and 148 adults!

Take this to another group.  Mcviegh doesn’t flyfish.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He is a mass murderer.  Murder is murder. Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

Response:

He was a fruitcake that knew exactly what he was doing, so now lets fry him or transform him in to road kill. Wade Wade, I do like the way you put things, even if there is a power shortage! RichT

Sorry I forgot about the energy shortage, we could reduce the amount of power by say 40% it would take just a little longer but that just collateral damage. Wade

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*NEW URL* http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_justice/Untitled-1.htm

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May the sniveling little coward roast in hell. I’d go to hell myself for a chance to shove a pineapple up his ass sideways.

hmmm…now there’s an image that conjures interest…perhaps one of the western or southern states could add that to its capital punishment options.  ok now mr mcveigh…it’s either the gas chamber, hanging, firing squad, lethal injection, or rw will shove a pineapple up your ass sideways…<g jeff

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Lets have Tim BBQ’d Wade

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if you want to play, you gotta pay! not to mention the intelligence of someone fleeing the scene in a car with out a plate and an unregistered gun under the seat. — jimi g. " It wasn’t a miracle, It was INFANTRY!"  – Omaha beach survivor and MOH recipient, 1998 — Eco. 51st inf. reg. 23inf. div. 9th SS Feldgendarmerie when you want to trade 1/6th or 1/1 scale, first visit the 1/6th scale INF.  at : http://people.mw.mediaone.net/wgreyson/home.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

Response:

He is a mass murderer.  Murder is murder.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

Response:

He is a mass murderer.  Murder is murder. Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

He’s a piece of trash. The death penality is too easy for him. — Harry Krause This is still a dangerous world. It’s a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mential losses. -GW Bush

Response:

Why don’t you keep your opinions to yourself.  And stay off off this newsgroup. Please.  If I have to say it again, I won’t be this nice, jerk. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He is a mass murderer.  Murder is murder. Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm He’s a piece of trash. The death penality is too easy for him. — Harry Krause This is still a dangerous world. It’s a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mential losses. -GW Bush

Response:

Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

Response:

May the sniveling little coward roast in hell. I’d go to hell myself for a chance to shove a pineapple up his ass sideways.

Response:

Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about.

He was a fruitcake that knew exactly what he was doing, so now lets fry him or transform him in to road kill. Wade

Response:

He was a fruitcake that knew exactly what he was doing, so now lets fry him or transform him in to road kill. Wade

Wade, I do like the way you put things, even if there is a power shortage! RichT

Response:

*NEW URL* http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_justice/Untitled-1.htm

Response:

*NEW URL* http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_justice/Untitled-1.htm

Response:

There are ways to protest the wrongdoings of government that don’t involve killing large numbers of innocent people. McViegh is no martyr, just a cowardly mass murderer. Let him die. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

Can you say TROLL?  I KNEW you could. Pat Lubbock, Texas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

Response:

May we all Please just ZOTZ this Usenet Troll; you can talk about this till your hearts are content in the appropriate forums.  Placing this cross-posted off topic BS here is just someone’s self serving attempt to stir shit… Cross-Posted Off Topic Usenet Abuse Path: sn-us!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com! enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsfeed.kpnqwest.at!anon.lcs.mit. edu!nym.alias.net!mail2news-x5!mail2news-x4!mail2news-x3!mail2news-x2!ma il2news Comments: This message did not originate from the Sender address above.  It was remailed automatically by anonymizing remailer software.  Please report problems or inappropriate use to the Newsgroups: alt.comp.periphs.cdr,alt.toys.gi-joe,rec.outdoors.fishing.fly,rec.outdoo rs.rv-travel,rec.sport.skating.ice.figure Lines: 8 Xref: sn-us alt.comp.periphs.cdr:298178 alt.toys.gi-joe:305294 rec.outdoors.fishing.fly:239740 rec.outdoors.rv-travel:270678 rec.sport.skating.ice.figure:330013

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

Response:

Question:

The only Humpies I fish have yellow bellies, only because the once or twice I tried orange, red or green ones, I saw no particular difference in results.  Have you colorists any ideas on when or under what conditions, one color Humpy might be better than another, or is it just the fishes’ whim from one day to the next? JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   On many lake outings, I either get a strike on an orange strike indicator or the orange leader link.  The last time I was out, a trout hit the leader link and then came back around and hit it and took it under.  I tied on a royal wulf & caught a couple of fish right away.  A fishing buddy just sent me some flor. orange thread (none available in the 2 shops here) and I’m going to tie up some dries and maybe a few nymphs & try them out.  This should be fun:)

Response:

I’ll also use orange flies during normal water conditions.

  On many lake outings, I either get a strike on an orange strike indicator or the orange leader link.  The last time I was out, a trout hit the leader link and then came back around and hit it and took it under.  I tied on a royal wulf & caught a couple of fish right away.  A fishing buddy just sent me some flor. orange thread (none available in the 2 shops here) and I’m going to tie up some dries and maybe a few nymphs & try them out.  This should be fun:) Bob Skinner   Buffalo, WY — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Willi,    Here in PA, I have noticed the runoff effect myself. Sometimes when one or two of my local streams a muddied, an orange shrimp pattern is about the only thing that will interest the fish. Never gave much thought as to whether it was the food item or the color that interested the fish under those conditions, but I do know it works.                                    Tom Littleton

Response:

Purple is consistently among the most productive colors for NW steelhead, particularly in low light.  No idea why it doesn’t seem to be effective for trout.

Maybe it’s because steelhead hit the fly out of of anger and teritoriality. The bigger and gaudier and more visible the fly, the more likely they are to strike. If you get a chance, watch steelhead or salmon on the redds sometime. There’s typically a female on the redd and a big male hanging out by her, and often one or two smaller males hanging back in the current. When a small male gets to close the big male chases him away, sometimes for quite some distance, and sometimes allowing another small male to sneak up to the female on the redd. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

During the time when the salmon are on the redds orange is more effective for catching steelhead.  After the salmon have spawned and the steelhead are on the redds orange loses it’s effectiveness and streamer patterns in darker colors become more effective. Ernie Purple is consistently among the most productive colors for NW steelhead, particularly in low light.  No idea why it doesn’t seem to be effective for trout.

 "rw" wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe it’s because steelhead hit the fly out of of anger and teritoriality. The bigger and gaudier and more visible the fly, the more likely they are to strike. If you get a chance, watch steelhead or salmon on the redds sometime. There’s typically a female on the redd and a big male hanging out by her, and often one or two smaller males hanging back in the current. When a small male gets to close the big male chases him away, sometimes for quite some distance, and sometimes allowing another small male to sneak up to the female on the redd.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Overall, I don’t think that color is a very important factor in a fly’s effectiveness. Light or dark can sometimes make a difference, but there are very few times when, for example, a tan fly will produce better than a light gray one. For me, anyway, the color orange is an exception. It is a good choice for "dirty" water conditions because it is very visible.    i think you are right on target.  one of the best patterns for early spring runoff in the blue ridge is an orange stimulator.    otoh, didn’t someone do a test to determine the most visible color for dark water to be purple? wayno

Hmmm…. has anyone ever tested for colors that turn all fish or certain species "off," like blue food for humans (OK, at least adult humans)? Alfred Hitchcock, IIRC, used to delight in having "Blue Food" parties when he found out about it. R

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That reminds me I lost that fly at the Montana Clave on a small creek. I need to tie some up.  I caught the biggest fish I caught in that creek on it before I lost it and the creek was gin clear. Willi

Pleased to hear that it worked for you.  I have caught fish in clear conditions with it but nothing approaching how well I’ve done with it in off-colour water on the Grand. BTW, yellow shows well to quite a depth, at least in salt water. Peter

Response:

Willie wrote;snipOverall, I don’t think that color is a very important factor in a fly’s effectiveness. Light or dark can sometimes make a difference, but there are very few times when, for example, a tan fly will produce better than a light gray one. For me, anyway, the color orange is an exception

Like you, I don’t think color matters in most cases, but there are times it makes a huge difference. I now carry a chartreuse box, a black box,and a orange box. The little foam spiders I tie in size 10 for bluegill are by far most effective in either black or yellow. I don’t pretend to know why, but I seldom catch bluegill on chartreuse spiders. I have a friend that finds a partridge and orange is by far the best pattern to catch a dragonfly on the backcast. I don’t pretend to understand this either, but he caught two dragonflies on a partridge and orange and this was witnessed. Big Dale  

Response:

        i think you are right on target.  one of the best patterns for early spring runoff in the blue ridge is an orange stimulator.         otoh, didn’t someone do a test to determine the most visible color for dark water to be purple? What I remember of the research was that the color purple was visible at the greatest depth, all other colors were seen as black. The same principal might be true in dirty water because of light transmission. I played around with some purple flies one year but wasn’t impressed with the results. In fact, I found them pretty ineffective.

As to the Orange Stimulator, my limited experience agrees with Wayno.   In my one day at the 2000 Spring Fling, the OS was my best fly.   It was great that the fish liked it, but more important for me at the time was that *I* could see it. As to purple, the only fish I’ve caught with purple flies are Lake Ontario salmon during the fall run.   Some days, purple is the ticket.   Who knows. Joe F.

Response:

… Overall, I don’t think that color is a very important factor in a fly’s effectiveness. Light or dark can sometimes make a difference, but there are very few times when, for example, a tan fly will produce better than a light gray one. For me, anyway, the color orange is an exception. …

For me, it’s always been yellow, if fishing on the surface. Whether bluegill, bass or brookie, popping bug. deer hair bass bug, or humpy, yellow seems the most productive for me. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

What?!  Talking about fish in a politics and stock tips news group?  Don’t you know about netiquette?!

Lot of nerve, eh? Willi My office is all in boxes in the basement otherwise I’d be able to dig out an article written either in Fly Tyer or Fly Fishing & Tying (I think that’s the title) that had an article on the effectiveness of orange.  It’s one of the primary colours used in steelhead flies as well. I think you received a mini-brown from me during the swap.  It’s most effective in off-colour water like the conditions you described for much the same reasons.  Your post is a good reminder – we try hard to match the hatch but every time a trout whacks our strike indicator, just remember that some of them also love bright, trashy things. <g Just like some ROFFians we know,  <g Peter

Response:

        i think you are right on target.  one of the best patterns for early spring runoff in the blue ridge is an orange stimulator.         otoh, didn’t someone do a test to determine the most visible color for dark water to be purple?

What I remember of the research was that the color purple was visible at the greatest depth, all other colors were seen as black. The same principal might be true in dirty water because of light transmission. I played around with some purple flies one year but wasn’t impressed with the results. In fact, I found them pretty ineffective. Willi

Response:

Purple is consistently among the most productive colors for NW steelhead, particularly in low light.  No idea why it doesn’t seem to be effective for trout. JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What I remember of the research was that the color purple was visible at the greatest depth, all other colors were seen as black. The same principal might be true in dirty water because of light transmission. I played around with some purple flies one year but wasn’t impressed with the results. In fact, I found them pretty ineffective.

Response:

What?!  Talking about fish in a politics and stock tips news group?  Don’t you know about netiquette?! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I took part of the day off and headed out to fish a stretch of river that had been fishing well lately.

Response:

Overall, I don’t think that color is a very important factor in a fly’s effectiveness. Light or dark can sometimes make a difference, but there are very few times when, for example, a tan fly will produce better than a light gray one. For me, anyway, the color orange is an exception. It is a good choice for "dirty" water conditions because it is very visible.

        i think you are right on target.  one of the best patterns for early spring runoff in the blue ridge is an orange stimulator.         otoh, didn’t someone do a test to determine the most visible color for dark water to be purple? wayno

Response:

I took part of the day off and headed out to fish a stretch of river that had been fishing well lately. When I got there, the river was up slightly and was running off color, not muddy but more of a chalky tinge like in some spring creeks only more so. They must have been doing a release of water from some small reservoir. Being used to fishing low clear water lately, I was rigged with a small, dark midge pupa. I fished that for awhile with no luck when it dawned on me that the fly was not too appropriate for the water conditions. I changed to one of my "dirty" water flies. I have several that I use but they all have one thing in common – they’re orange. Overall, I don’t think that color is a very important factor in a fly’s effectiveness. Light or dark can sometimes make a difference, but there are very few times when, for example, a tan fly will produce better than a light gray one. For me, anyway, the color orange is an exception. It is a good choice for "dirty" water conditions because it is very visible. I caught more fish today than I had been in the normally very clear water this time of year. The cloudy water allowed me to approach lies closer so I could use a shorter line with more control and it allowed me to take more than one fish from a lie without spooking the others. The orange fly gave the fish something they could readily see. I’ll also use orange flies during normal water conditions.  When I’m in a situation where I feel I should be catching fish but I’m not, an orange fly is one of things that I’ll try. I’m not sure if it’s just the visibility of orange or something else, but even though bright orange is not a color often seen in nature, it can be a trigger for fish.  Few traditional patterns use orange. The first orange fly I used was a Breadcrust. The fly was effective for me and I still fish it in a slightly modified version. Now I tie most of the fly styles I use, from midges to stoneflies, in orange as well as the normal more muted colors. I’ve used a variety of shades of orange. I don’t how much difference the shade of orange matters but I generally use a blend of mainly bright orange with a pinch of bright yellow and a pinch of something dark. Willi

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My office is all in boxes in the basement otherwise I’d be able to dig out an article written either in Fly Tyer or Fly Fishing & Tying (I think that’s the title) that had an article on the effectiveness of orange.  It’s one of the primary colours used in steelhead flies as well. I think you received a mini-brown from me during the swap.  It’s most effective in off-colour water like the conditions you described for much the same reasons.  Your post is a good reminder – we try hard to match the hatch but every time a trout whacks our strike indicator, just remember that some of them also love bright, trashy things. <g Just like some ROFFians we know,  <g

That reminds me I lost that fly at the Montana Clave on a small creek. I need to tie some up.  I caught the biggest fish I caught in that creek on it before I lost it and the creek was gin clear. Willi

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Question:

Two of us are planning a ten-twelve day canoe trip in La Verendrye reserve in Quebec, late August to early September. Any advice on routes? We have the route maps put out by the reserve, but they’re a bit short on detail. Some specific questions: Are motor boats allowed anywhere in the area? We definitely don’t want to share the trip with them. The portages look pretty short and straightforward – are there any you’d avoid? Same thing with the river sections connecting the lakes – are any of them to stay clear of? (We also paddle Class 2 whitewater but are not taking a whitewater boat along, don’t want to run rapids on this trip.) The campsite density near Le Domaine looks very high – is it really very crowded there? Will the area be crowded over Labor Day weekend? Can you leave your car safely for a couple weeks at any of the other access points? Would you recommend bringing an emergency phone/locator system, or is that overkill? We’ve done a 12-day trip in Algonquin Park (from the northern access) and are looking for something similar, but a bit wilder with fewer other people. Any comments and recommnedations gratefully received!

Response:

Two of us are planning a ten-twelve day canoe trip in La Verendrye reserve in Quebec, late August to early September. Any advice on routes? We have the route maps put out by the reserve, but they’re a bit short on detail. Some specific questions: Are motor boats allowed anywhere in the area? We definitely don’t want to share the trip with them.

Hunting and fishing are the primary activities in La Verendrye and fisherman can drive/fly into the lake they have purchased a license to fish in.  This means you are likely to encounter motorboats on any good sized lake along your route. The portages look pretty short and straightforward – are there any you’d avoid? Same thing with the river sections connecting the lakes – are any of them to stay clear of? (We also paddle Class 2 whitewater but are not taking a whitewater boat along, don’t want to run rapids on this trip.) The campsite density near Le Domaine looks very high – is it really very crowded there? Will the area be crowded over Labor Day weekend?

You can only count on the portages within the Le Domaine area being well maintained so it is hard to say what you will encounter elsewhere.   Can you leave your car safely for a couple weeks at any of the other access points?

This seems to be a problem.  One of our canoe club members suggests leaving your car empty and unlocked. Would you recommend bringing an emergency phone/locator system, or is that overkill?

That would be overkill considering the interior road network and the likelihood of encountering fisherman who have driven in. We’ve done a 12-day trip in Algonquin Park (from the northern access) and are looking for something similar, but a bit wilder with fewer other people.

La Verendrye has the advantage that you can select routes that are long but with relatively little portaging.  It is impossible to do a route of significant length in Algonquin without a considerable amount of portaging. — John Stewart — Computing and Communications Services, Carleton University "you are incompetent bloodlusting idiot pirates. — CCS student feedback"

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Question:

I’m considering purchasing a sit-on-top kayak for flyfishing the flats and marshes on the Texas Coast.  The model I’ve been lusting after is the Ocean Kayak Frenzy.  Does anybody have any input re: fishing from these kayaks, or any type of kayak?  

I have a Wilderness System’s Ride and it’s great to fish from. I don’t think I could tip it over if I wanted to. — Charlie…

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My experience with SOT’s is that they are wet and you need to wear neoprene on cool days. I have fished from my Folbot double kayak with OK results. Too bad inflatables are deflatables. I am now looking at the Kiwi Lobo and the Poke Boat.  Duck hunters like the Poke, so it is probably the most commodious.  However, the Lobo is supposed to be way nicer to paddle. Ken (to reply via email remove "zz" from address)

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I recently purchased a Cobra Explorer Sit on Top.  These sit on tops are great and I already been doing very well both in salt and fresh water with it.   Damian NuWave Tackle Innovative products designed by fishermen for fishermen Fly Tying / Rod Building Equipment, Tackle… http://www.nuwavetackle.com/

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I’ve been using a Prism by Perception for about four months now and am pleased with the overall performance. It tracks well,is quiet, and quick. Did an overnighter float from below Austin, Texas to Bastrop and was pleasantly surprised by just how many unnecessary items I could fit into the two large hatches. …downsides: The bottom of the boat where your feet rest always has water in it. easily two inches of water. Can’t stand up on it. If you have decent balance, you can stand up to cast with a Malibu 2, but try paddling one of those tankers. I’ve also seen the front end dip under water when paddling with and riding some small waves kicked up by the wind. and this is on a lake, no telling how it would do in surf.   Casting sitting down is not a problem, I just can’t cast as far. It’s fun to fish from  and( a decent sized fish will drag you around), to me, the space in the hatches outweighs the water at my feet. I’ve taken to placing a couple of those car-top foam blocks under the footpegs… keeps the feet dry. Good luck, PZ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m considering purchasing a sit-on-top kayak for flyfishing the flats and marshes on the Texas Coast.  The model I’ve been lusting after is the Ocean Kayak Frenzy.  Does anybody have any input re: fishing from these kayaks, or any type of kayak?  Has anybody tried casting from these kayaks? The Frenzy is appealing to me because (1) it is relatively inexpensive ($400); (2) it looks quite versatile (can be used in whitewater and the surf as well); and (3) it appears to be easily transported. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, RD

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m considering purchasing a sit-on-top kayak for flyfishing the flats and marshes on the Texas Coast.  The model I’ve been lusting after is the Ocean Kayak Frenzy.  Does anybody have any input re: fishing from these kayaks, or any type of kayak?  Has anybody tried casting from these kayaks? The Frenzy is appealing to me because (1) it is relatively inexpensive ($400); (2) it looks quite versatile (can be used in whitewater and the surf as well); and (3) it appears to be easily transported. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, RD

Talking it over with the SO (she says the only real advantage to the Frenzy is smaller females can rack it easily, but I agree it is more river-friendly, FWIW) and another kayaking friend, we agree with your points 1, 2, and 3, but have you looked at the O.K. Scrambler?  A little bigger, more stable – done the Yucatan, Alaska, Keys, Texas Coast, etc. on one, you can even easily dive from one – but again, not quite as easy handling on a river.  Have you talked to Southwest Paddle Sports?  They have a website I think.  Talk to Patty and tell her Eliz and the gang from Ft. Worth set ya.   HTH? TC, R

Response:

I’m considering purchasing a sit-on-top kayak for flyfishing the flats and marshes on the Texas Coast.  The model I’ve been lusting after is the Ocean Kayak Frenzy.  Does anybody have any input re: fishing from these kayaks, or any type of kayak?  Has anybody tried casting from these kayaks? The Frenzy is appealing to me because (1) it is relatively inexpensive ($400); (2) it looks quite versatile (can be used in whitewater and the surf as well); and (3) it appears to be easily transported. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, RD

Response:

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

I know nothing of kayaks but so long as you’re soliciting feedback please allow me to congratulate you on one of your quips that has long been one of my favorite quotes: When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.                                   -Raoul Duke- — Ken Fortenberry

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sitting in (a kayak not music) has to be more stable (secure not horse) than sitting on top ( boats not se…..never mind) john (I’m fishin out of a keowee) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m considering purchasing a sit-on-top kayak for flyfishing the flats and marshes on the Texas Coast.  The model I’ve been lusting after is the Ocean Kayak Frenzy.  Does anybody have any input re: fishing from these kayaks, or any type of kayak?  Has anybody tried casting from these kayaks? The Frenzy is appealing to me because (1) it is relatively inexpensive ($400); (2) it looks quite versatile (can be used in whitewater and the surf as well); and (3) it appears to be easily transported. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, RD

Response:

Question:

I’m looking to improve my midge presentations this year. There is a local lake that I fish often where midges appear to be a major food source and I keep getting skunked. I know, use, and tie only a couple of midge patterns: 1. Griffith’s Gnat for dry 2. Brassie for the pupa. Anyone have any killer patterns for midges? I’m especially interested in larva, pupa, and emerger type patterns. There don’t seem to be as many out there as for mayfly nymphs etc. As for presentation, I recently checked out Mike Croft’s stillwater book and found that midge larva and pupa imitations need to be presented in a near vertical presentation with very slow retrieve. I think this is part of my problem also. Any tips/techniques anyone has here would be appreciated as well!

Response:

This URL should help you out http://www.fishbc.com/adventure/angling/protalk/chan/confession.phtml TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

Wow. The article talks about using a 6 or 7 meter leader.  That seems like it would be impossible to cast? Keith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This URL should help you out http://www.fishbc.com/adventure/angling/protalk/chan/confession.phtml

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m looking to improve my midge presentations this year. There is a local lake that I fish often where midges appear to be a major food source and I keep getting skunked. I know, use, and tie only a couple of midge patterns: 1. Griffith’s Gnat for dry 2. Brassie for the pupa. Anyone have any killer patterns for midges? I’m especially interested in larva, pupa, and emerger type patterns. There don’t seem to be as many out there as for mayfly nymphs etc. As for presentation, I recently checked out Mike Croft’s stillwater book and found that midge larva and pupa imitations need to be presented in a near vertical presentation with very slow retrieve. I think this is part of my problem also. Any tips/techniques anyone has here would be appreciated as well!

Hi Xochi, Someone else pointed you to Brian Chan’s page.  Its a very good start. There are a lot of midge patterns around, most all fly tying books show a few.  The Griffith’s Gnat is a good dry pattern, its just that lake fish aren’t on drys very often.  They are on the emergers, pupa, and larva much more often.  I like the suspended midge pupa patterns for the emergers, and the swannundase midge for the pupa.  Both are in Kaufmans book "Tying Nymphs".  You will need a variety of colors and sizes,  assume you will need black, olive, gray, and red pupa patterns.  Sizes cover a huge spectrum.  My box includes size 12 at the large end and goes to 18 at the small end. Smaller may be needed on occasion, but not so often I stock for it.   What you really need to do is spend some time watching the midges hatch in your lake.  Stock your box with the colors and sizes present at your lake.  I didn’t mention larva patterns because I don’t use any special patterns for the larva.  The pupa pattern is generally close enough. Most of my midging is done within 4 feet of the surface.  This might be peculiar to the lakes I fish.  I don’t go out of my way to use a long leader, and tippet size doesn’t need to go to the rediculous either.  A standard 9 foot leader ending in 4x is OK most of the time.  Lake fish run pretty big and while smaller tippets can be used to land them,  doing so usually exhausts the fish in the process.  Stay with the heavier tippets whenever you can. Slow is key, in fact if you can keep the line tight, no retrieve is best.  I use a strike indicator a lot so a tight line is not as critical.  Wave action provides more than enough action to the fly.  To catch a few on midges now and again is a simple matter.  To get really good at it is a whole nother story! Good luck John S.

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I’m looking to improve my midge presentations this year. There is a local lake that I fish often where midges appear to be a major food source and I keep getting skunked. I know, use, and tie only a couple of midge patterns: 1. Griffith’s Gnat for dry 2. Brassie for the pupa.

snipped to save room. going to get spammed for spamming.  I have the answer, but I don’t know how to help you and others in a public forum such as ROFF. The price one pays for being an icon!  Sucks! — Mr.G Wildlife: An American Ideal & Her Values Thesis http://www.gink.com/environment/index.html

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Xochi, What about my favourite midge-emerger: Hook: TMC 2487 #’s 18-22. Tail: two strrands of twinkle flash, cut off short. Body: grey tyingthread – make a very, very thin body, tied well into the bend. Tie in a CDC-feather at the point. Wrap a small thorax with some peacock-herl Fold the CDC-feather losely over the thorax, thus forming a small buld on top. It’s OK to let some fibers point out. The idea is to get a small body with a rather messy thorax. Cut of. Just let this fly float in the surface, using a long leader-point, without too much casting. Hans van der Stroom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m looking to improve my midge presentations this year. There is a local lake that I fish often where midges appear to be a major food source and I keep getting skunked. I know, use, and tie only a couple of midge patterns: 1. Griffith’s Gnat for dry 2. Brassie for the pupa. Anyone have any killer patterns for midges? I’m especially interested in larva, pupa, and emerger type patterns. There don’t seem to be as many out there as for mayfly nymphs etc. As for presentation, I recently checked out Mike Croft’s stillwater book and found that midge larva and pupa imitations need to be presented in a near vertical presentation with very slow retrieve. I think this is part of my problem also. Any tips/techniques anyone has here would be appreciated as well!

Response:

Greetings, Small Fly by Darrel Martin, try a search on http://www.addall.com/ for a source and the best price available. Graham

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m looking to improve my midge presentations this year. There is a local lake that I fish often where midges appear to be a major food source and I keep getting skunked. I know, use, and tie only a couple of midge patterns: 1. Griffith’s Gnat for dry 2. Brassie for the pupa. Anyone have any killer patterns for midges? I’m especially interested in larva, pupa, and emerger type patterns. There don’t seem to be as many out there as for mayfly nymphs etc. As for presentation, I recently checked out Mike Croft’s stillwater book and found that midge larva and pupa imitations need to be presented in a near vertical presentation with very slow retrieve. I think this is part of my problem also. Any tips/techniques anyone has here would be appreciated as well!

Response:

The price one pays for being an icon!  Sucks!

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0679887482.01.LZZZZZZZ.gif — Charlie…

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Not so, we use 20-22 ft leaders, in lakes, all the time.  A lot of people who use a bobber over their chironomids, cast these leaders very well….even with the cork. Fred – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow. The article talks about using a 6 or 7 meter leader.  That seems like it would be impossible to cast? Keith This URL should help you out http://www.fishbc.com/adventure/angling/protalk/chan/confession.phtml

Response:

TRY A FLY CALLED HALO MIDGE EMERGER.YOU WILL FIND THE PATTERN IN A BOOK WRITTEN BY GARY LAFONTAINE:TROUT FLIES PROVEN PATTERNS.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m looking to improve my midge presentations this year. There is a local lake that I fish often where midges appear to be a major food source and I keep getting skunked. I know, use, and tie only a couple of midge patterns: 1. Griffith’s Gnat for dry 2. Brassie for the pupa. Anyone have any killer patterns for midges? I’m especially interested in larva, pupa, and emerger type patterns. There don’t seem to be as many out there as for mayfly nymphs etc. As for presentation, I recently checked out Mike Croft’s stillwater book and found that midge larva and pupa imitations need to be presented in a near vertical presentation with very slow retrieve. I think this is part of my problem also. Any tips/techniques anyone has here would be appreciated as well!

Response:

Hi Xochi (how does one pronounce that anyway I read your post several times … these are the things that came to mind. The Grifiths Gnat and Brassie don’t really cover the few inches of water column beneath the surface unless you clip hackles or use greased leaders.   Last year Mike Connor suggested I try a snipe and purple on midging fish in lakes … I didn’t have snipe at the time and used magpie instead … both have worked for me.  But … I pick a fish and put the fly well infront and will strip the fly into the fishes path if necessary then leave it inert – I generally don’t have to fish the water.  Of course that was last year – this year may be completely different What species of fish?  Rainbows give me the most trouble with their speed, even seemingly slow rise forms are from fish moving at quite a clip. Do something radical … trick I use is to use a small attractor (size 16 or 14 at most) and fish this by casting to a rise and stripping slowly … Alexandras are good for this on the lakes I fish.  This isn’t a bad option when searching the water either.  I will also use bait fish imitations … it really depends a lot on the water. What fly do I start with? … 99% of the time the wrong one. Of course if your fish are totally switched on to a 3.75 mm pupae with a bluey-silver sheen  you may need a whole lot of luck as well… Its taken nine off-seasons to come up with couple of tactics and flies that work consistently on midge feeders during the middle of the day. steve — "Experience must be the teacher in this game – not only your own  but the other man’s" – Dick Wigram http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~steve/fush/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m looking to improve my midge presentations this year. There is a local lake that I fish often where midges appear to be a major food source and I keep getting skunked. I know, use, and tie only a couple of midge patterns: 1. Griffith’s Gnat for dry 2. Brassie for the pupa. Anyone have any killer patterns for midges? I’m especially interested in larva, pupa, and emerger type patterns. There don’t seem to be as many out there as for mayfly nymphs etc. As for presentation, I recently checked out Mike Croft’s stillwater book and found that midge larva and pupa imitations need to be presented in a near vertical presentation with very slow retrieve. I think this is part of my problem also. Any tips/techniques anyone has here would be appreciated as well!

I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of "Whitlock’s Four-Phase Polymidge", but It is a simple and supposedly highly effective pattern.  I have never used it, but the design seems very good, and all the stories I’ve heard? Convincing!    Meroli

Response:

Steve Wrote <snip Of course if your fish are totally switched on to a 3.75 mm pupae with a bluey-silver sheen  you may need a whole lot of luck as well… Its taken nine off-seasons to come up with couple of tactics and flies that work consistently on midge feeders during the middle of the day.

Have any of you heard of the Silver Savior (as featured in Field and Stream)? It can barely be called a fly, It is supposed to work when trout seem to be "feeding on microscopic bubbles!" (pronounced with a tone of frustration). Unfortunately, I forgot how it is tied!  I can say that it is tied on a #22-#32 size hook, with almost no materials.  The author of the article said that he invented it to imitate a tiny air bubble.       Meroli

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AJ Bests patterns in FR&R about a year ago are interesting,  using  the edge from a zip lock baggie!  Will try them out in one week at Lees Ferry.  Report to follow.   Al Schuh-fly

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The best website for the San Juan,     www.ifly4trout.com    , has lots of midge patterns

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Question:

Uh-Oh…I think someone just turned on the heater it’s starting to get hot in here….. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To all sponsoring and/or midwiving the BASTARD: The news surrounding the birth of the BASTARD is nothing short of fantastic. As a fan of split-cane rods, I salute these efforts and think everyone should have the chance to own and fish a properly tooled and crafted cane rod.  So what about the BASTARD?  Does anyone out there really think that a split-cane rod can be produced for $300???!!!  HELLO?!  ARE WE ALL THAT DELUDED??!!?? Cane hex blanks alone wholesale for over $200 and quadrates are double that. But the BASTARDS will be made from cheap cane in a no-nonsense fashion, as if a BLANK has any nonsense. Cheap cane is cheap because it is covered either with water marks or grower’s marks.  I know, I know…the BASTARD aesthetic is not concerned with aesthetics.  But grower’s marks typically go through the enamel and sever the power bundles.  Yes, this effects casting, noticeably.  Really.  Cane costs could be reduced by making one-tip rods, but that cuts the life of the BASTARD in half. What about the tapers?  Initially, it would be easy enough to sell only one taper/length in each line weight; there are plenty of tapers out on the web. But soon customers won’t be so patient.  You’ll need more.  That means taking the time to reset you planing forms and triple-check the depth.  Then you’ll have to test out guide spacing on each different taper.  Time, time. What about tooling?  To put up with the rigors of production, you’ll have to get decent tooling.  Your cheapest tools will be your planing forms (~$800 for one that will last) and planes (at least four; as much as you want them to be, but don’t skimp on the blades).  Don’t forget your beveler and binder which together go for the price of a year’s tuition at an Ivy-league school.  A good depth guage is a car payment.  And don’t forget your wrapper, whipping thread, sock, tube…  To keep costs down I guess you don’t have to worry about the finish, just use tung-oil.  Then you don’t need varnish, dip-tanks, color-preserver, or any of that.  But tung-oil rods *often* won’t last a half of a decade. What about hardware?  Snakes and tip-tops are no big deal, but forget about the agate (or even agatine) stripper.  If you find a good agate stripper for less than $30, then you haven’t found agate. (Doesn’t sound like much, but that’s already 10% of your rod.)  To keep costs down, what’s wrong with SiC? Hook-keepers?  Anyone who’s read Garrison knows that American cane rod-makers don’t use hook-keepers.  It’s called a stripping guide. Yup.  Saved money there.  Reel seats?  Forget fancy, how about alder?  Don’t even get me started on ferrules. If you can somehow get all the above costs diffused through an enormous production run so that they retail for under $500, you still haven’t paid you labor.  Even if it’s a labor force of one, Mr. G, he’ll need to eat once in a while.  Hobbyists can finish a cane rod in about 40-50 man-hours.  Custom rods from the 30 or so who make cane rods for a living (full-time) take about 80-100 man-hours.  These folks probably want to charge a little more than minimum wage. There are reasons that cane rods cost as much as they do, and there are reasons that the many attempts to produce low-cost cane rods in the last 30 years have failed.  What you get in a properly made and well-crafted cane rod is not only a superior fishing instrument, but a piece of American history. The cane-rod industry is one of the last in this country that consists of independent artisans who apprentice under masters and continue to improve upon the tradition.  If you read up on the history of cane-rods you’ll notice that even though split-cane and greenheart originated in the UK, the modern tradition of split-cane rods is American and any reputable rod-maker can trace his apprenticeship back to a 19th century master.  Yes, they still cost a lot, but if you ever talk to a full-time rod-maker (at the FFF or somewhere) you’ll see that no one gets rich making rods, they do because they love it. And finally…Is there a real difference between cane and graphite or glass? Well, is there a difference between an Aston-Martin and a Geo?  or is there a difference between Night Train and the Famous Grouse?  Both cars will get you where you want to go and both drinks will eventually get you drunk, but I guess it depends on how you want to get there.  Maybe a better analogy is shaving with garden-shears or a straight razor.  One is clumsy and potentially painful and the other, with a little practice, is an instrument of precision and tradition that is a pleasure to use and surpasses all. If you decide to get a split-cane rod, get the right one for the right reasons.  Don’t get any old BASTARD because it is cheap.  Perhaps the BASTARD will be the rod that will change the ff-ing world.  Perhaps not.  But at least talk to a cane rod-maker (check out the cane Rodmakers page at http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/index.htm) to see what kind of rod they can make you and what their rods can do over a production rod. Oh, but I doubt any of of those rodmakers would be able to seel you a Marryat reel.  Tough luck. The Tonkin Kid

Response:

To all sponsoring and/or midwiving the BASTARD:

and George began his reply: ______ That is me, "tonkin kid".  Talk to me.  I’m the man.  I’m the uno numeruno Bastard you need to address yourself too.  Now then?  You were saying?

(remainder of repartee snipped, in my never-ceasing attempt to save band-width) Go get’em George.  We can’t have these blithering naysayers ruining our fun. Mark Faulkner

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‘kid,’ is licking his wounds.  He will heal though and will come back to try to learn  more about us. O.G.O

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Tonkin Kid, I think you should change your name to "The Foolium Kid". 1. Do you know what the price of a bundle of Tonkin cane is. 2. Do you know the average number of good culms in a bundle of Tonkin cane? 3. Do you know how many rods with extra tips can be built with one culm? 4. Do you know how many strips a man using power tools can plain in a day? 5. Do you know how many blanks one man can finish in a day? 4. Do you know what the mark up is on a bamboo rod? I don’t know where you buy your hardware and materials but you won’t ever find me there.  I have seen figures just like yours trying to justify the cost of graphite rods also, but you should peddle your foolium elsewhere, I am not in the market. Ernie Harrison

Response:

To all sponsoring and/or midwiving the BASTARD: The news surrounding the birth of the BASTARD is nothing short of fantastic. As a fan of split-cane rods, I salute these efforts and think everyone should have the chance to own and fish a properly tooled and crafted cane rod.  So what about the BASTARD?  Does anyone out there really think that a split-cane rod can be produced for $300???!!!  HELLO?!  ARE WE ALL THAT DELUDED??!!?? Cane hex blanks alone wholesale for over $200 and quadrates are double that. But the BASTARDS will be made from cheap cane in a no-nonsense fashion, as if a BLANK has any nonsense.   Cheap cane is cheap because it is covered either with water marks or grower’s marks.  I know, I know…the BASTARD aesthetic is not concerned with aesthetics.  But grower’s marks typically go through the enamel and sever the power bundles.  Yes, this effects casting, noticeably.  Really.  Cane costs could be reduced by making one-tip rods, but that cuts the life of the BASTARD in half. What about the tapers?  Initially, it would be easy enough to sell only one taper/length in each line weight; there are plenty of tapers out on the web. But soon customers won’t be so patient.  You’ll need more.  That means taking the time to reset you planing forms and triple-check the depth.  Then you’ll have to test out guide spacing on each different taper.  Time, time. What about tooling?  To put up with the rigors of production, you’ll have to get decent tooling.  Your cheapest tools will be your planing forms (~$800 for one that will last) and planes (at least four; as much as you want them to be, but don’t skimp on the blades).  Don’t forget your beveler and binder which together go for the price of a year’s tuition at an Ivy-league school.  A good depth guage is a car payment.  And don’t forget your wrapper, whipping thread, sock, tube…  To keep costs down I guess you don’t have to worry about the finish, just use tung-oil.  Then you don’t need varnish, dip-tanks, color-preserver, or any of that.  But tung-oil rods *often* won’t last a half of a decade. What about hardware?  Snakes and tip-tops are no big deal, but forget about the agate (or even agatine) stripper.  If you find a good agate stripper for less than $30, then you haven’t found agate. (Doesn’t sound like much, but that’s already 10% of your rod.)  To keep costs down, what’s wrong with SiC? Hook-keepers?  Anyone who’s read Garrison knows that American cane rod-makers don’t use hook-keepers.  It’s called a stripping guide. Yup.  Saved money there.  Reel seats?  Forget fancy, how about alder?  Don’t even get me started on ferrules. If you can somehow get all the above costs diffused through an enormous production run so that they retail for under $500, you still haven’t paid you labor.  Even if it’s a labor force of one, Mr. G, he’ll need to eat once in a while.  Hobbyists can finish a cane rod in about 40-50 man-hours.  Custom rods from the 30 or so who make cane rods for a living (full-time) take about 80-100 man-hours.  These folks probably want to charge a little more than minimum wage. There are reasons that cane rods cost as much as they do, and there are reasons that the many attempts to produce low-cost cane rods in the last 30 years have failed.  What you get in a properly made and well-crafted cane rod is not only a superior fishing instrument, but a piece of American history. The cane-rod industry is one of the last in this country that consists of independent artisans who apprentice under masters and continue to improve upon the tradition.  If you read up on the history of cane-rods you’ll notice that even though split-cane and greenheart originated in the UK, the modern tradition of split-cane rods is American and any reputable rod-maker can trace his apprenticeship back to a 19th century master.  Yes, they still cost a lot, but if you ever talk to a full-time rod-maker (at the FFF or somewhere) you’ll see that no one gets rich making rods, they do because they love it. And finally…Is there a real difference between cane and graphite or glass? Well, is there a difference between an Aston-Martin and a Geo?  or is there a difference between Night Train and the Famous Grouse?  Both cars will get you where you want to go and both drinks will eventually get you drunk, but I guess it depends on how you want to get there.  Maybe a better analogy is shaving with garden-shears or a straight razor.  One is clumsy and potentially painful and the other, with a little practice, is an instrument of precision and tradition that is a pleasure to use and surpasses all. If you decide to get a split-cane rod, get the right one for the right reasons.  Don’t get any old BASTARD because it is cheap.  Perhaps the BASTARD will be the rod that will change the ff-ing world.  Perhaps not.  But at least talk to a cane rod-maker (check out the cane Rodmakers page at http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/index.htm) to see what kind of rod they can make you and what their rods can do over a production rod. Oh, but I doubt any of of those rodmakers would be able to seel you a Marryat reel.  Tough luck.   The Tonkin Kid

Response:

To all sponsoring and/or midwiving the BASTARD:

______ That is me, "tonkin kid".  Talk to me.  I’m the man.  I’m the uno numeruno Bastard you need to address yourself too.  Now then?  You were saying? Oh?  By the way – Refer to me from now on as "O.G.O." The news surrounding the birth of the BASTARD is nothing short of fantastic.

As a fan of split-cane rods, I salute these efforts and think everyone should have the chance to own and fish a properly tooled and crafted cane rod.  So what about the BASTARD?

dense quality Imported Just For this bastard. Does anyone out there really think that a split-cane rod can be produced for $300???!!!

HELLO?!  ARE WE ALL THAT DELUDED??!!??

Cane hex blanks alone wholesale for over $200 and quadrates are double that.

But the BASTARDS will be made from cheap cane in a no-nonsense fashion, as if a BLANK has any nonsense.

more careful on who you’re talking too here ‘tonkin kid’.  Is that it?  "Tonkin Kid?"  Are you saying you have the market cornered on cheap bamboo?  Sorry.  We don’t want any. Cheap cane is cheap because it is covered either with water marks or grower’s marks.  I know, I know…the BASTARD aesthetic is not concerned with aesthetics.

BASTARD BAMBOO FLY ROD.  This fly fishing world is ready for a Beautiful Bastard – and this is it.  In fact, you’re beginning to qualify for one. But grower’s marks typically go through the enamel and sever the power bundles.  Yes, this effects casting, noticeably.  Really.  Cane costs could be reduced by making one-tip rods, but that cuts the life of the BASTARD in half.

equate your kind of foolishness with a high quality BASTARD FLY ROD.  "Don’t Tread On Me Dude"  Just might become a Bastard Model.  Thank goodness, nothing you’ve said so far applies to a BASTARD FLY ROD.  "Half Life," looks more promising to the "tonkin kid," buddy.  Where do you get off making such outlandish statements and lies?  Do you work for Bill Clinton? What about the tapers?

Initially, it would be easy enough to sell only one taper/length in each line weight; there are plenty of tapers out on the web.

But soon customers won’t be so patient.

You’ll need more.  That means taking the time to reset you planing forms and triple-check the depth.  Then you’ll have to test out guide spacing on each different taper.  Time, time.

BASTARD BAMBOO FLY ROD.  Like I said.  I’m rich. What about tooling?  To put up with the rigors of production, you’ll have to get decent tooling.

tooling is the best in the world.  Do you want to come and work for me? Your cheapest tools will be your planing forms (~$800 for one that will last) and planes (at least four; as much as you want them to be, but don’t skimp on the blades).  Don’t forget your beveler and binder which together go for the price of a year’s tuition at an Ivy-league school.  A good depth guage is a car payment.  And don’t forget your wrapper, whipping thread, sock, tube…  To keep costs down I guess you don’t have to worry about the finish, just use tung-oil.  Then you don’t need varnish, dip-tanks, color-preserver, or any of that.  But tung-oil rods *often* won’t last a half of a decade.

shop.  Everything is free except raw materials.  You need to get your planing forms from someone that doesn’t screw you all the time, kid.  It was "kid" – right? What about hardware?  Snakes and tip-tops are no big deal, but forget about the agate (or even agatine) stripper.  If you find a good agate stripper for less than $30, then you haven’t found agate. (Doesn’t sound like much, but that’s already 10% of your rod.)  To keep costs down, what’s wrong with SiC? Hook-keepers?  Anyone who’s read Garrison knows that American cane rod-makers don’t use hook-keepers.  It’s called a stripping guide. Yup.  Saved money there.  Reel seats?  Forget fancy, how about alder?  Don’t even get me started on ferrules.

have too but, I will admit I’d rather just buy them ready made.  You’re down to nickle/dime stuff.  Hardware.  No mystery in hardware.  If we can’t buy it at a price that is fair, we will make it right here. Kid, you just don’t know what the hell  you’re talking about.  If we can build it cheaper, guess what the choice is going to be? If you can somehow get all the above costs diffused through an enormous production run so that they retail for under $500, you still haven’t paid you labor.  Even if it’s a labor force of one, Mr. G, he’ll need to eat once in a while.  Hobbyists can finish a cane rod in about 40-50 man-hours.  Custom rods from the 30 or so who make cane rods for a living (full-time) take about 80-100 man-hours.  These folks probably want to charge a little more than minimum wage.

person operation.  Automation on as much as is possible is guaranteed.  Those ‘full time’ rod makers have to cut the vacations and coffee breaks pal. I just love it when all these losers keep equating how others should run their businesses.  Has anyone latched onto that yet?  "Welllllllll?"  They think.  If it takes ME 100 hours to make a bamboo fly rod, that means its going to take you 100 hours too." wrong! There are reasons that cane rods cost as much as they do, and there are reasons that the many attempts to produce low-cost cane rods in the last 30 years have failed.  What you get in a properly made and well-crafted cane rod is not only a superior fishing instrument, but a piece of American history. The cane-rod industry is one of the last in this country that consists of independent artisans who apprentice under masters and continue to improve upon the tradition.  If you read up on the history of cane-rods you’ll notice that even though split-cane and greenheart originated in the UK, the modern tradition of split-cane rods is American and any reputable rod-maker can trace his apprenticeship back to a 19th century master.  Yes, they still cost a lot, but if you ever talk to a full-time rod-maker (at the FFF or somewhere) you’ll see that no one gets rich making rods, they do because they love it.

BASTARDS. And finally…Is there a real difference between cane and graphite or glass?

_______Well, gee?  I don’t know?  Is there a difference between land and water? The moon and the sun?  Your wife as compared to mine?  Golfing in the middle of a street and a fairway?  You tell us kid.  This is a heavy question. Well, is there a difference between an Aston-Martin and a Geo?  or is there a difference between Night Train and the Famous Grouse?  Both cars will get you where you want to go and both drinks will eventually get you drunk, but I guess it depends on how you want to get there.  Maybe a better analogy is shaving with garden-shears or a straight razor.  One is clumsy and potentially painful and the other, with a little practice, is an instrument of precision and tradition that is a pleasure to use and surpasses all.

qualified.  Park it dude.  Your engine is racing but your tires are standing still.  All this has NOTHING to do with   BASTARD FLY RODS.  You have not one, single, base point to stand on.  You are just (to be perfectly frank) a baseless opinion.  A noise.  A silent fart in church.  You are way off base on nearly everything.  But!  That is okay.  We get them like you here all the time.  We just need to soften you up a little and get you drunk a time or two.  We might even teach you how to be a success.  Here, anything is possible.  Even for you kid. If you decide to get a split-cane rod, get the right one for the right reasons.  Don’t get any old BASTARD because it is cheap.

pine tree all the time?  Just LISTEN to yourself!  Quote:  "Don’t get any old BASTARD because it is cheap."  Well, there are no other BASTARDS and these are not old.  Right away, you make yourself out an idiot of principle, ‘kid’. This also isn’t ANY old BASTARD.  That is another mistake.  It is my BASTARD FLY ROD COMPANY and you have NO RIGHT to say or ASSUME the things you’re doing here . . . kid. (God, I love this place!) Perhaps the BASTARD

‘hope’ for ‘the kid.’  What do you guys think?  Is he or is not ‘the kid’ qualifying as a real bastard who should own a bastard? will be the rod that will change the ff-ing world.

life.  How do we know?  Because you’re HERE!  It is everyone’s pleasure to meet a cynic such as  yourself.  You

… read more »

Response:

Question:

Does anyone have any favorite fly fishing sites in the area around Lake Superior Provincial Park and Wawa? Thanks in advance Brian

I think you’ll have your best luck in the Wawa.

Response:

Does anyone have any favorite fly fishing sites in the area around Lake Superior Provincial Park and Wawa?

Yes. Tom Burczyk

Response:

says… Does anyone have any favorite fly fishing sites in the area around Lake Superior Provincial Park and Wawa? Thanks in advance Brian

It’s been awhile since my last visit, but I’ve caught some nice fish on the Batchawana(sp) river.

Response:

Thanks in advance Brian

What time of year? The first two weeks in August

Response:

Does anyone have any favorite fly fishing sites in the area around Lake Superior Provincial Park and Wawa? Thanks in advance Brian

Response:

Question:

Okay, I tie on a dry fly and go out and fish.  But I don’t catch anything and want to change my fly (as opposed to closing my fly).  How do I do this?  Cut the old one off?  Untie (how) the fly that is already on?  What?  Sure sound like dumb but important questions to me and I hope someone can help a beginner.  Thanks. — Gerald Strom University of Illinois at Chicago

Response:

Okay, I tie on a dry fly and go out and fish.  But I don’t catch anything and want to change my fly (as opposed to closing my fly).  How do I do this?  Cut the old one off?  Untie (how) the fly that is already on?  What?  Sure sound like dumb but important questions to me and I hope someone can help a beginner.  Thanks. —

cut it off…put the dry on you hatband of drying patch… if this makes your tippet too short then cut this off and replace it too… TimW

Response:

Okay, I tie on a dry fly and go out and fish.  But I don’t catch anything and want to change my fly (as opposed to closing my fly).  How do I do this?  Cut the old one off?  Untie (how) the fly that is already on?  What?  Sure sound like dumb but important questions to me and I hope someone can help a beginner.  Thanks.

Hi Gerald First off there is no such thing as a dumb question.  That’s what this group is all about — questions and answers. When you want to change a fly just cut one off and tie on another.  There are special nippers made for this purpose OR if you don’t have one a small finger nail clipper will work just fine.  When I first started I used a finger nail clipper on a loop of old fly line around my neck for several years. There are several different knots used to tie on flies.  You can go to the library and find a book on fly fishing or check at your local fly shop.  There is a neat little book (about 3"x5") on knots available today.  I personally like the Uni Knot but there are other good knots as well.  Many of the fly line manufacturers include knot tying instructions with there fly line.  Also I have an old aluminum Perine fly box that has the knot tying instruction on the front of the box. Keep asking the questions and I’m sure you’ll find someone more experienced on this group who will help. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT(96 catalog)

Response:

Okay, I tie on a dry fly and go out and fish.  But I don’t catch anything and want to change my fly (as opposed to closing my fly).  How do I do this?  Cut the old one off?  Untie (how) the fly that is already on?  What?  Sure sound like dumb but important questions to me and I hope someone can help a beginner.  Thanks. —

I must admit that I have never thought about it till now.  basicly i cut (bite) the old one off,  I guess that this results in the tippet ( end of the leader) becomming shorter and shorter.   In the UK you can get in small "snap" links from Mustard which are designed for easy fly changing Julian

Response:

Just cut fly off as close to hook as as possible then tie on new fly.Best to have someone show you improved clinch knot or uni knot

best of luck -jkralic

Response:

Heck, if you haven’t caught the darn thing in a tree behind you, you can’t be that dumb… Just snip it off and buy lots of tippet.

Response:

writes: Okay, I tie on a dry fly and go out and fish.  But I don’t catch anything and want to change my fly (as opposed to closing my fly).  How do I do this? Cut the old one off?  Untie (how) the fly that is already on?  What?  Sure sound like dumb but important questions to me and I hope someone can help a beginner.  Thanks.

No need to apologize for your question.  the only stupid question is the one that doesn’t get asked.  Enjoyed the pun by the way ;^ When you want to change flies, you simply cut off the first one and tie on another. Eventually this will shorten your tippet (if you don’t lose it to a fly eating tree or bush first, or cast some wind knots into it), but then you cut that off and tie on a new piece.  Orvis has a waterproof knot booklet for about $5 that has the appropriate knots listed and how to tie them. Personally I use the Orvis knot to tie on most trout flies and a Trilene knot to tie on any fly large enough to pass the tippet through the eye twice (large streamers, bass flies, steelheadsalmon flies, saltwater flies).  On flies that I want to use a lot of action on I will often use a Duncan’s loop.                            Hope this helps,                                      Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

Response:

In follow up to one beginners question to another, does it matter what size leader you use as long as the tippet is a smaller size? Do I need to change leaders if I’m going to the trout stream after I’ve been fishing for bluegill in a pond, or just the tippet? Thanks. D. Lowe

Response:

In follow up to one beginners question to another, does it matter what size leader you use as long as the tippet is a smaller size? Do I need to change leaders if I’m going to the trout stream after I’ve been fishing for bluegill in a pond, or just the tippet? Thanks. D. Lowe

I myself work on the premise that my tippet should be either the same or one size smaller than the tip section of my leader. For determining the end "tippet" size a good general rule is too devide your hook size by three. Example: Size 12 adams – use a 4x tippet. Reel simple

Response:

In follow up to one beginners question to another, does it matter what size leader you use as long as the tippet is a smaller size? Do I need to change leaders if I’m going to the trout stream after I’ve been fishing for bluegill in a pond, or just the tippet? Thanks. D. Lowe I myself work on the premise that my tippet should be either the same or one size smaller than the tip section of my leader. For determining the end "tippet" size a good general rule is too devide your hook size by three. Example: Size 12 adams – use a 4x tippet. Reel simple

One approach is to use a 3X leader and then step down to the desired tippet size  using 6 – 8 inch long transition sections.  For example, if you want to use a 6X tippet, you would use 8 inches of 4X and 8 inches of 5 X between the leader and tippet section. This way you only carry one size leader. Regards, Chuck

Response:

One approach is to use a 3X leader and then step down to the desired tippet size  using 6 – 8 inch long transition sections.  For example, if you want to use a 6X tippet, you would use 8 inches of 4X and 8 inches of 5 X between the leader and tippet section. This way you only carry one size leader. Regards, Chuck

Not a bad idea Chuck except for me personally I find it very difficult to  tie on those little pieces of tippet material while there is a feeding frenzy going on. For some reason my fingers and brain seem to disconnect while whatching trout splashing and jumping all around me, not to mention the problem of cold fingers or low light. I generally carry a range of leaders sizes 3x-6x pretied with 3 feet of tippet section done while at home whatching a fishing show or something. This allows me more time to fish and less aggravation on the water. I only tie on the water if I have to. Tight lines Russ

Response:

(DLowe21757) writes: In follow up to one beginners question to another, does it matter what size leader you use as long as the tippet is a smaller size? Do I need to change leaders if I’m going to the trout stream after I’ve been fishing for bluegill in a pond, or just the tippet? Thanks. D. Lowe

Boy this can be a can of worms! Commercial knotless tapered leaders consist of three parts – butt section (which is heavy and level or very slightly tapered), the tapering section (which rapidly tapers down to your tippet size), and the tippet section (which is also level and the part that you tie onto the fly).  So your leader already has a tippet on it.  You can replace the tippet as needed as you break it off or cut it down from changing flies.  Much less expensive to tie on a new tippet section than to change an entire leader every time you mess up the tippet.  You can also change how your leader performs by cutting back or adding tippet.  If you add tippet you will get more slack out near the fly, if you cut back tippet you will get more power delivered to the fly resulting is less slack and more ease in turning over large flies or regular flies in windy conditions.  You can play around with the butt section in the opposite manner to accomplish the same thing, but that means tying two knots instead of one.  And of course if you really want to get carried away you can vary both to fine tune the leader to your needs. A good approximate guide to which tippet size to use is to divide the size of your fly by 3 and use the resultant number for your tippet X number. For instance: size 18 fly divided by 3 = 6X tippet, size 12 divided by 3 = 4X, size 16 divided by 3 = 5X and a little left over.  In slow clear water with spooky trout you may have to go one X smaller, and in fast pocket water you may be able to go one X larger.  Listen to what the fish say, they’ll tell you. Length of leader is more a function of the water type than anything else. We use longer leaders for greater subtlety (less obtrusive than the fly line) and more suppleness.  Long leaders – 9 to 12 ft.- are most commonly needed in slow clear water with spooky trout.  That is because the trout gets a long time to inspect your fly in slow water and are typically more critical of drag.  Short leaders – 6 to 7 1/2 ft. – are used in faster water for better control with typically larger flies in fast water conditions.  In fast water the trout gets only a short time to see your fly before he takes it or rejects it and there is not usually as much food available (harsher conditions) so he tends to be more opportunistic than in the slower water conditions.  Since we don’t need the added subtlety and suppleness of the longer leader in faster conditions we don’t use it. Always best to use the shortest heaviest leader you can get away with. Again listen to the trout.   If the trout aren’t taking your fly you probably need to go longer and finer.  Sometimes the shortest stoutest leader that will work is a 12 ft. 6X or 7X leader.                      Hope this helps,                              Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

Response:

Question:

Any west coast trail experts out there?  Please feel free to answer some, all, or none of these questions.  I have read the Sierra Club guidebook, now I’m looking for a little more personal and/or personal advice" (paraphrased quotation). I’m planning my trip in May.  Am I setting myself up for a lot of mud and rain? One book implied that the average rainfall in May is not too bad. If I hit the low tides I’m hoping to do a bunch of beach walking, so that might get rid of the mud.  Comments? I’ve got favorable tides (low tides in the afternoon) from May 13 That gives me, say, 8 days of reasonable tides for beach walking. My wife and I aren’t very good at getting up early, so an ideal tide would maybe reach it’s low at 15:00.  We’d then hike from 12:00 to 16:00 and not worry about getting caught by rising tides. It sounds like the southern section is where I’ll really apreciate low tides (to get around Owens pt, for example) so I’m thinking of flying or driving out to the Island on the 8th-10th, leaving the car in Victoria, taking the bus (or the bus and The Lady Rose) to Bamfield, starting to hike on the 12th.  Then if we spend the planned 10 days/9 nights we’ll get out on the 21st. That’ll give us the 21st/22nd to get to Victoria (is this hard?  Does the Knight Limousine Service still operate?) to reclaim our car and the 22nd to the 24th to drive back to Calgary (or fly back, sans car of course.) Sound reasonable? If you had 10 days to spend on the trail, how many of them would you hike?  Would you hike all 10 (an average of 7.5 km/day?) or would you spend a day or two in the middle somewhere just beachcoming and relaxing and seducing your spouse or S/O . (Is it *possible* to seduce your spouse or s/o if you’re both soaking wet from all the rain and you only have freeze-dried food?).  Where’s the best place for these sort of activities? Where’s the best fishing?  How can I find out more about the fishing? I’m not normally a fisherman, but hey, I’ve got 10 days.  And if I catch some fish I could even stretch our food supply to 11 or 12 days. How warm can I expect it to be? How hard is it *really* to cross Nitinat Narrows?  Does anyone actually ever have to wait for more then a day for the friendly Indians to ferry you across in May?  If so, should I hike from the south to the north so that I can relax after the crossing on the better beaches in the north half?  (Or are the better beaches in the south?) THANK YOU IN ADVANCE.  Please, if you’re too busy to answer all my questions, just email me something.  If I get enough somethings it will be better then one detailed response. (Man, am I ever looking forward to this vacation!) — "Wow, it’s like a ‘Calvin and Hobbes’ fantasy but without the "Dilbert" talking about Internet. — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — John E. Abraham                 ryryryryry   /    Mathematical Modelling ******* Current research:  Transportation and Land Use Interaction ******* trombone/piano/harmonica blues/jazz/rock player < backpacker < traveller

Response:

People have swum the English Channel and the Nitinat Narrows would be considerably easier but the full pack would make it interesting. It is just as well I waited the 15 minutes for the boat ride.

Natural selection in action. Please DO NOT attempt to swim across Nitinat Narrows.  It is a tidal surge channel with dangerous undercurrents.  It may look relatively calm compared to the ocean nearby, but strong swimmers have died trying to cross. I have never heard of someone foolish enough to try.  Every book, map, etc. states that people have died, and it is passable only by boat.

Artificial selection in action.   Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers   {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya

Response:

I’m planning my trip in May.  Am I setting myself up for a lot of mud and rain?

We went in May last year and had a great trip, not many people, only two out of six days rain and not much mud.  Saw a bear on the trail (A worry!), but none around campsites, although always hung our food. We took the Lady Rose after hitching to Port Alberni, which involved next to no waiting at the side of the road and then at the south end,the Port Renfrew Connector to Victoria. How hard is it *really* to cross Nitinat Narrows?  Does anyone actually ever have to wait for more then a day for the friendly Indians to ferry you across in May?  If so, should I hike from the south to the north so that I can relax after the crossing on the better beaches in the north half?  (Or are the better beaches in the south?)

Forget it and wait. The southern boardwalks were very slippery!! particularily for my wife who had some newer boots on; Did one nice loop ending head first in a bog! Do you have your permit yet?  They have started requiring permits since last year. May is not the most popular month and we got ours at about this time last year.  Call Pacific Rim National Park and they’ll have the number to book it. Ian McKirdy Canada Centre for Remote Sensing Ottawa, Ontario  K1S 0Y7 613 947-1318 om mani padme hum

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Be prepared for rain.  I went 2 years ago and was caught in a near hurricane which forced the park service to close the trail for 3 days.  80 MPH winds and 2-3 inches of rain per day for 3 days straight.  Climbing down those ladders, covered with moss, with rain slushing down, rungs missing, and feeling the support anchors pulling out while wearing a 55lb pack was quite a thrill!   Once the storm cleared, myself and 4 other hikers had the trail to ourselves.  Although one woman came down with a fever and had to be helicoptered out, and two other silly hikers tried to wade across the Carmanah River after the heavy rains and lost all their gear when they were swept off their feet and nearly washed out to sea.  Luckily they managed to get to the Carmanah lighthouse, where they too were helicoptered out.  (A huge sitka spruce had fallen across the cable crossing…and was the main reason for the trail closure.)  The rest of us waited out the storm, until the water level was below our ankles. (The tip in the WCT trail book about crossing at low tide is a joke if the rivers are swollen with rain.) Whenever possible, travel the beach route.  There’s a beautiful campsite at Owen’s point.  If you’re a purist hike to Owen’s instead of taking the launch.  On the other hand, don’t miss out on the bogs either.  The bogs have elevated cedar walkways for the most part. I had no trouble hiking the trail in 7 days.  But I wish I’d taken a few extra days.  In particular, there are some interesting side trails such as a primitive trail up the Carmanah Valley. The best tip I can give you is to park your car at the Northern end of the trail, and then pay $10 to the Pachenat Band to drive you to the Southern end along the backroads (takes 3-4 hours).  That way you end up back at your car when you are done. A boat is required to cross Ninstints narrows.  I had to wait 4 hours for a ride.  Although, at slack tide you may be able wave down a passing fisherman.  I think the fee was $5, and you can buy a cold beer from the chief. You can probably buy or bum salmon/crabs off the fishermen and natives.  I was offered a 10lb Coho while waiting at the Narrows. Don’t drink the water!  Watch for black bear.  Climbing rope is useful if you go off trail.  Checkout Adrenalin Surge channel if you have a death wish. Good luck and have fun!   -bill

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People have swum the English Channel and the Nitinat Narrows would be considerably easier but the full pack would make it interesting. It is just as well I waited the 15 minutes for the boat ride. I hitchhiked from Bamfield to Port Renfrew and was assured by a park staff person that it would be quite easy to do so. It took me ten rides and 24 hours and some walking to do it. Nearly everybody who came by gave me a ride but there are few people on the logging roads that connect the two places and they are working and only going to the next turnoff.

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People have swum the English Channel and the Nitinat Narrows would be considerably easier but the full pack would make it interesting. It is just as well I waited the 15 minutes for the boat ride.

Please DO NOT attempt to swim across Nitinat Narrows.  It is a tidal surge channel with dangerous undercurrents.  It may look relatively calm compared to the ocean nearby, but strong swimmers have died trying to cross. I have never heard of someone foolish enough to try.  Every book, map, etc. states that people have died, and it is passable only by boat. Dave Lee

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 Abraham) writes: I’m planning my trip in May.  Am I setting myself up for a lot of mud and rain?

I would definitely be prepared for rain and mud.  You may be lucky and hit a dry week, but spring on the west coast trail means a healthy amount of rain. It has been a very dry winter this year so it may not be as bad as normal. One book implied that the average rainfall in May is not too bad. If I hit the low tides I’m hoping to do a bunch of beach walking, so that might get rid of the mud.  Comments?

If you plan it properly you can do a lot of beach walking.  This is the most scenic part of the trip and well worth the planning it takes to get on and off the beaches at the right times.  Remember, some beaches only have one exit trail amidst very steep cliffs and if you get caught by the tide it can be a difficult situation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got favorable tides (low tides in the afternoon) from May 13 That gives me, say, 8 days of reasonable tides for beach walking. My wife and I aren’t very good at getting up early, so an ideal tide would maybe reach it’s low at 15:00.  We’d then hike from 12:00 to 16:00 and not worry about getting caught by rising tides. It sounds like the southern section is where I’ll really apreciate low tides (to get around Owens pt, for example) so I’m thinking of flying or driving out to the Island on the 8th-10th, leaving the car in Victoria, taking the bus (or the bus and The Lady Rose) to Bamfield, starting to hike on the 12th.  Then if we spend the planned 10 days/9 nights we’ll get out on the 21st. That’ll give us the 21st/22nd to get to Victoria (is this hard?  Does the Knight Limousine Service still operate?) to reclaim our car and the 22nd to the 24th to drive back to Calgary (or fly back, sans car of course.)

There is bus service back to Victoria, but I don’t remember the name of it. Hitch-hiking is also very possible to get back to Victoria. Lots of people will give rides to trail hikers.  Ten days is plenty of time to enjoy the trail with no need to rush. If you had 10 days to spend on the trail, how many of them would you hike?  Would you hike all 10 (an average of 7.5 km/day?) or would you spend a day or two in the middle somewhere just beachcoming and relaxing and seducing your spouse or S/O . (Is it *possible* to seduce your spouse or s/o if you’re both soaking wet from all the rain and you only have freeze-dried food?).  Where’s the best place for these sort of activities?

Five to six days of hiking is usually plenty to do the trail.  A nice side trip is up Nitinat river to Nitinat Lake.  You can camp beside the lake and do some fishing.  Usually very private for seduction type encounters.  The lake is tidal, but fresh water is available for washing, etc. Where’s the best fishing?  How can I find out more about the fishing? I’m not normally a fisherman, but hey, I’ve got 10 days.  And if I catch some fish I could even stretch our food supply to 11 or 12 days.

Depends on how much you carry, how much you eat, and how good a fisherman (person) you are. How warm can I expect it to be?

Cool during the day and cold at night. Probably not below 0 C however. How hard is it *really* to cross Nitinat Narrows?  Does anyone actually ever have to wait for more then a day for the friendly Indians to ferry you across in May?  If so, should I hike from the south to the north so that I can relax after the crossing on the better beaches in the north half?  (Or are the better beaches in the south?)

Don’t try to cross Nitinat narrows without a boat.  You will see what I mean when you get there.  Not a problem getting a boat ride across from the local natives.  They will offer to sell you some beer, and it will seem very tempting, especially if it is hot, but it can be very difficult to hike after drinking even one beer. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE.  Please, if you’re too busy to answer all my questions, just email me something.  If I get enough somethings it will be better then one detailed response. (Man, am I ever looking forward to this vacation!)

Its a beautiful trip.  I’m sure that you will enjoy it very much no matter what weather you encounter. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — "Wow, it’s like a ‘Calvin and Hobbes’ fantasy but without the "Dilbert" talking about Internet. — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — John E. Abraham                 ryryryryry   /    Mathematical Modelling ******* Current research:  Transportation and Land Use Interaction ******* trombone/piano/harmonica blues/jazz/rock player < backpacker < traveller

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