Question:

For starters, I have to brag that my youngest ties a darned good GRW. Everytime I sit down to tie, she wants to tie with me, and when I have the time & patience, I teach her a few things at the vise.   Sitting on the porch at Moosehead, she got to the point that she could tie a #16 bead head GRW all by herself & have it look as good as mine (faint praise, indeed <g).   I was taking the entire family fishing at the East Outlet that afternoon, and I kept hers segregated because she wanted to catch a fish on one of her own flies.   She’s going to be a helluva fisherman one day. I knew full well that taking three novices fly fishing on a big river was going to be a lot of work, and I began rigging the rods back at the cabin. Between the rods I’ve built for them and my own stuff, I had enough to put together a 4wt. & two 5wt. outfits; and I knew I wouldn’t need a fourth for myself.   By the third outfit, I was getting too mechanical, & tied the fly on the tippet before I tied the tippet on the leader.   Shit.  So I gently held the fly in my lips while I felt for the end of the leader.   Murphy’s Law struck, of course.  I don’t remember exactly the sequence of events; but the tippet tightened, and before I felt the pain, I had a #16 GRW firmly embedded in my bottom lip.   Well, that was stupid.   Fortunately, it was small enough that blood & pain were minimal on its extraction. Reaching the river, I set my three sports out on decent looking runs north of the highway, explained the concept of the strike indicator, then spent the next half hour running among them, helping them cast, untying tangles, unhooking snags, tying on new flies, etc.   SWMBO and the youngest were using her self-tied flies, hoping for success.   It was SWMBO who struck first, hooking a nice little landlock, which she reeled in & lifted with her rod, before it released itself.   A cool moment for both SWMBO & my little fly tyer. #1 son never got the timing down, & after his second god-awful tangle, lost interest after an hour.   The day was fading, & there were starting to be a few caddis along the shoreline.   A couple days before, I’d tried my hand at tying a Goddard Caddis, so I took one out of my box & tied it on.   What the hell.   A short drift along a nearby seam, & I had a fish on.  Cool for me. I’ve tied a few flies & caught more than a few fish on my own flies, but this was amazingly the first fish I’d caught on a dry fly I’d tied.   SWMBO wanted a Kodak moment; but out of habit, I grabbed the fly before I grabbed the fish, & it was gone that quickly. Climbed out of the river, & got back to the cabin, where youngest wanted to tie some more flies. Joe F. p.s. Dave, both kids thought you were pretty cool. <g

Response:

Joe F.: <great report snipped p.s. Dave, both kids thought you were pretty cool. <g

<G  Thanks.  We talked aboug Peach all the way home that night.  You are a lucky man, Joe.  Wonderful family. Dave

Response:

For starters, . . .

<snip Nice report, Joe. Cheers to SWMBO! It’s too bad about #1 son — I know the feeling. My youngest (nineteen yrs) got frustrated and bored early in the season and now I’m having one hell of a time bringing him back. I think maybe a canoe or boat trip might be in order. . . — TL, Tim

Response:

Climbed out of the river, & got back to the cabin, where youngest wanted to tie some more flies. Joe F. p.s. Dave, both kids thought you were pretty cool. <g

ya but what do kids know, eh?  <G very nice TR, BTW.  catching a fish on your own fly is always a special thrill – watching mom catch one with it would be just as good. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Question:

I’m a farmer from the midwest, and I have seen this behavior many times before.  In a hoglot (it can happen with cattle also) when one pig is picked on and shows too much weakness, often many other pigs will jump in and attack it.  They will often continue until they kill the weak pig. Now the article is gone so I cannot even read it, much less respond to it.  Usually when something stinks, it needs to be aired out.

Response:

FAOL made a public relations mistake by censoring opposing points of view in the public message forums and guest book.

Exactly right. I have been hearing a lot about how MC ‘censored’ Ole Rupe’s article when, in fact, FAOL censored any and all opposing comments, and based on Deanna’s reply to MC, she still doesn’t see why this was wrong. If opposing views had been allowed from the beginning, this whole debate would have been conducted on FAOL, where it belonged. Just imagine if Time magazine, for instance, published this article and refused to acknowledge any opposing views, but published a weak disclaimer a few issues later. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down" ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

Geez, bc, the anti-defamation league? Isn’t that overkill?   I don’t know why any responsible publisher (even on the net) would publish such crap but I guess I would just desub.  Seems like everbody wants to censor.  What a pain in the ass.

He incited killing people based on race.   Funniest thing, the author apparently doesn’t know anything about his subject, first-hand.  "If I lived" kinda makes you wonder about what he really would do if he did live there.  My guess would be hide under a rock.

He would be the last person I would invite on a hunting trip bc.

Response:

Folks Racists and their closet brethren are uniformly cowards and depend on easy prey and a wimpy defense. When they get challenged they generally run for cover. When they get their ass kicked they cry foul. When they are on top they kill and incite others to kill.  Civilized people who refuse to accept the inconvenience of the fight are walking shaky ground. Anyone feeling sorry for these assholes might try to consider how  Native American kids who accessed Ole Rupe’s racist shit felt. One of the most important lessons of the 20th Century is that racists and Nazis will use the hood at night, the gas chamber when they can get away with it and a cynical intellectualized stance when it suits them, and further, that the only effective way to fight them is to make them pay a high price for their bullshit. Good riddance, F*** Rupe and the horse he rode in on Dave

Response:

Why don’t you just email the author and ask for a copy?<

Who the fuck is the author?   And that’s not the point, anyway.  However, valiant ROFFians have provided me with this "tempest in a teapot"  piece of shit. Waste of good bandwidth to even discuss it.

Response:

I certainly have no tolerance for censorship. Had I been able to read the article perhaps I would have reacted differently, but thanks to all you "right thinkers" I do not have that opportunity. Expressing an opinion and attempting to force other expressions off the net are two different things.  I trust you can see that.

I am not condoning censorship.  FAOL made the decision to publish the article unedited in its original form.  The article would have been just as effective with out the racial overtones.  FAOL made a public relations mistake by censoring opposing points of view in the public message forums and guest book.  It was only after this censorship took place, did I start my letter campaign making sponsors and organizations like the Anti-Defamation League aware of that article. bc.

Response:

It was only after this censorship took

place, did I start my letter campaign making sponsors and organizations like the Anti-Defamation League aware of that article.< Geez, bc, the anti-defamation league?   Isn’t that overkill?  I don’t know why any responsible publisher (even on the net) would publish such crap but I guess I would just desub.  Seems like everbody wants to censor.  What a pain in the ass. Funniest thing, the author apparently doesn’t know anything about his subject, first-hand.  "If I lived" kinda makes you wonder about what he really would do if he did live there.  My guess would be hide under a rock.

Response:

Why don’t you just email the author and ask for a copy?< Who the fuck is the author?   And that’s not the point, anyway.  However, valiant ROFFians have provided me with this "tempest in a teapot"  piece of shit. Waste of good bandwidth to even discuss it.

I believe the whole thing started because Mike didn’t want articles he had written in the same ‘publication’ as that one, which is his right as an author. You were complaining that the result of his actions deprived you of your opportunity to read the article. FWIW. — Charlie…

Response:

I believe the whole thing started because Mike didn’t want articles he

had written in the same ‘publication’ as that one, which is his right as an author. You were complaining that the result of his actions deprived you of your opportunity to read the article. FWIW.< In spite of the recent Ct of Appeals decision, whether or not it’s his right is still up in the air IMO.  But yeah, I was complaining about that.   Now that I’ve read it, I wish I had had the opportunity to read it BEFORE I got into this thread.  And that’s the closest thing to an apology anyone is going to get from me. <g

Response:

Isn’t that overkill?  I don’t know why any responsible publisher (even on the net) would publish such crap but I guess I would just desub.  Seems like everbody wants to censor.  What a pain in the ass.

Good point Harry. I raised a stink precisely because I do appreciate FAOL and have no desire to "unsubscribe". If the publication were of no value and little read, there would have been no outcry. I said as much to Deanna in reply to an email, I hope she takes it to heart. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I do not regret any of my actions, and would do the same thing again if necessary.  I do regret the damage caused to the site, or to people connected with it, but this is in no way my responsibility.  This is purely the result of their own actions. The decision to close is up to the publishers alone, and I have no influence in the matter.

Mike certainly doesn’t need validation from me, but I do agree with the way he handled the whole mess. He removed himself from a publication he didn’t agree with, and told people why. The situation got a bit excessive, but the publisher’s actions and responses seemed to be as bizarre as the author’s, including shutting down the site and the ‘enjoy your victory’ bullshit. Sounds like one bad association (Rupe, Deanna, the public, and Mike) just waiting to flame out…and it did. — Jeff Cook http://www.cookstudios.com Washington DC area

Response:

What’s with this "closure" of FAOL? Does that mean they’re shutting it down altogether? Why? Is this a case of the publisher "eating worms"? Will she have second thoughts? Or have all her sponsors deserted her? Tune in at 11. Seriously, folks, this is what they call a perverse result. I don’t think anyone in ROFF who was offended by the article wanted FAOL to cease to exist. Maybe a letter-writing campaign to their ex-sponsors along these lines would be called for: "I am satisfied by FAOL’s apology and retraction of the offensive article. Please continue your sponsorship of this fine web site." Not that it will do much good. One more thing. Before you start letter-writing campaigns to sponsors when you see something you don’t like on an otherwise excellent website, think about perverse effects. Wait at least of few days. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

HR, Like a spoiled little boy, he demanded that they return his ball.  If you don’t do what I want, I’ll take my ball (those precious "articles") and go home.

The analogy to the spoiled little boy and his ball is something of a stretch.  Mike’s contributions were more than a ball.  They could easily be construed as an endorsement of the site and, once the site stepped over a line to which Mike is sensitive, it’s understandable that Mike would no longer want his name associated with that site. Thanks to Mike and others of his ilk, I have not read the article.  

Mike and his ilk aren’t the only problem, here.  As I understand it, their opposing views were censored before they took additional steps. We can now only speculate how things might have turned out had opposing views been given prompt and equally prominent exposure. But even if I had, and found it racist,  I would not have demanded it’s removal.

I also wish the whole affair had been handled differently.  You may recall that I was one who opposed Mr. G’s remarks about Indians/fishing on ROFF.

Sorry.  I didn’t see those posts… But noooo, apparently I and others are not to be allowed that privilege.

It doesn’t seem possible that you believe the site in question is/was the only place on earth you could read that article.  Assuming Rupe is willing, it may be posted elsewhere.  You might even hunt Rupe up and request a copy if you’re as passionate as you sound about wanting to read it yourself.  It might even be that one of the article’s antagonists grabbed a copy and could email it to you.  But you gotta ask. The CENSORS have had their way.

I’m not arguing that point.  As I said before, I had concerns about the "censorship" aspect of the issue.  Censorship, though, isn’t always a dirty word.  You could say that I censored Larry Flint by keeping Hustler Magazine out of my house.  There were kids around. Was that kind of "censorship" a bad thing? We’ve long had laws on the books to discourage uncivil speech in public places.  It hasn’t been that long ago that a dunked boater was busted and prosecuted for cussing up a blue streak around women and kids.  Certainly you can argue that such laws infringe freedom of speech. But when you can walk into any supermarket and run a good chance of finding yourself — and your kids — in the checkout line behind somebody wearing a tee-shirt emblazoned with all manner of obscenites — you have to wonder… If we now find ourselves so enlightened that such laws are an embarrasment, what remedies do you propose for those who prefer not to be accosted by uncivil speech?  Are we to reduce them to staying indoors and keeping their mouths shut?  If that’s the answer, haven’t we censored them? One of my points to which you didn’t respond was the issue of all of us using our influence to affect the world around us.  What I’m wondering about is something like this: Remember when the Exxon Valdez ran aground?  Remember Exxon’s grudging responses?  Suppose somebody had succeeded in motivating a large number of Exxon customers to protest by buying their petrol elsewhere. Would that have been dirty pool or economic terrorism? Don’t us mere citizens have a right to prod and push our world about to shape it into something we think would be better? The way I see it, freedom of speech is a door that swings both ways. That is, say what you like, but be prepared for others to respond by saying what _they_ like.  And sometimes they say it _very_ loudly. Which is what Mike did. Wes Peterson LexCraft Data Services

Response:

I have always had a pretty good opinion of you Mike but I must say that I understand now why you live in Germany.  Who the fuck put you in charge of anything, much less in charge of deciding what should and should not appear on the net?  You have come out of this looking like a pretentious asshole IMO. But now I guess you can write some of your famous doggerel and everything will be all right.

Blaine, First of all, country of origin as nothing to do with expressing you’re own point of view. Mike did not put himself in charge of anything.  He has the legal right to express his opinion.  The publishers of the site made a business decision to put that article unedited on their commercial site.  The article would have been just as effective without those comments. When opposing points of view were expressed, they were quickly censored and removed from the public areas of the site.  Their justification was that they were off topic and inflammatory. If I go to a bookstore and pick up the latest issue of a fly fishing magazine, I can make a fair assumption that the articles enclosed will contain material relevant to the sport.  That the articles will not be intertwined with racial comments, incitement to kill someone and that 30/06 rifle rounds is inexpensive.  The same assumption should be made of an online magazine dedicated to fly-fishing. As far as I am concerned the staff of FAOL could have handled the entire situation better. The article in its original form had no business being on a commercial venue like FAOL. Based on the responses that I have received from sponsors when I sent out my email, I could surmise that they agree.   You and FAOL lack one thing: tolerance bc.

Response:

Presumably you think its OK for people to voice their hatred and poisonous

viewpoints, but not OK to do anything actively to oppose them ?< I have no knowledge of what was written and thanks to you and others like you, I will apparently have no opportunity to.  What I do oppose is censorship in any way shape or form.   No doubt you will live to censor another day.  And I’m glad I distressed you.  Certainly you have distressed me.

Response:

You and FAOL lack one thing: tolerance< I certainly have no tolerance for censorship. Had I been able to read the article perhaps I would have reacted differently, but thanks to all you "right thinkers" I do not have that opportunity. Expressing an opinion and attempting to force other expressions off the net are two different things.  I trust you can see that.

Would you like a copy of it?  I kept a copy for reference. Peter

Response:

You and FAOL lack one thing: tolerance<

I certainly have no tolerance for censorship. Had I been able to read the article perhaps I would have reacted differently, but thanks to all you "right thinkers" I do not have that opportunity. Expressing an opinion and attempting to force other expressions off the net are two different things.  I trust you can see that.

Response:

I have no knowledge of what was written and thanks to you and others like you, I will apparently have no opportunity to.  What I do oppose is censorship in any way shape or form.   No doubt you will live to censor another day.  And I’m glad I distressed you.  Certainly you have distressed me.

Why don’t you just email the author and ask for a copy? — Charlie…

Response:

Would you like a copy of it?  I kept a copy for reference.<

Thanks, Peter but Christian sent me one.   Is THIS really what all the fuss is about? "With regard to native American fishing rights I hold the politically incorrect view that the only good Indian is a dead Indian. If I lived  where they gill netted steelhead I would be on the 6 p.m. news. Uncle Sam taught me how to remove problems at 300 meters." Stupid?  Yes.  Disgusting that someone would put this onto the net (or anyplace, for that matter)?  Absolutely.   I disagree totally with the ideas expressed there.  Would I bitch about them?  Hell yes.   Do I believe that Rupe (or whatever the hell his name is) has a right to express them.  Yes, I do.   On a fly fishing site?  While I disagree violently with him, his comments are related to fishing.  So why not?  It’s not like his ideas, however unpalatable, are apt to have the impact of, say, shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre, now are they. With all the horrible examoles of racism that we see and have seen, frankly, this appears to me to be a tempest in a teapot. There are a lot better ways of fighting evil than writing about it on the net. But then, we’re writers, not doers, eh?

Response:

<long "final" rant snipped I have always had a pretty good opinion of you Mike but I must say that I understand now why you live in Germany.  Who the fuck put you in charge of anything, much less in charge of deciding what should and should not appear on the net?  You have come out of this looking like a pretentious asshole IMO. But now I guess you can write some of your famous doggerel and everything will be all right.

You are entitled to your opinion, good or bad.  Your insulting generalised implications of why I live where I live are unnecessary, unfortunate, unfounded, unworthy and not a little distressing. I am not in charge of anything at all. I simply voiced a perfectly normal protest at a particularly crass example of racism, in a place and under circumstances which where extremely upsetting. Your opinion of my person is also not particularly nice, but you have every right to voice it. I will doubtless survive nevertheless. Presumably you think its OK for people to voice their hatred and poisonous viewpoints, but not OK to do anything actively to oppose them ? Let

Question:

Reminds me of the time I hooked a fish in the dorsal fin.  I thought it was a monster because it pulled so hard, then I saw where it was hooked.  They sure can pull when hooked that way. Ernie

<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What I did experience,which was unusual, on an Irish stream this summer was lassooing a brown- it rose to a small dry spider style dry. I struck, and thought I had hooked a whopper.When I got it in, I found the tippet had gone 360 degrees round the belly of a small  fish, and the fly had caught up in the tippet. I had dragged the fish side ways through the water! regards, Gillaroo.

Response:

there’s an easy way not to get tangled in the reeds.. don’t cast into them they have been using the same dropper system in Ireland and Scotland from time immemorial- so I don’t think you have to worry about using a new or specific leader/dropper material???  Gillaroo

Response:

I have tied bass flies with a weed guard by using a loop of heavy leader material that guards the hook point but will still hook an bass that hits it. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – there’s an easy way not to get tangled in the reeds.. don’t cast into them they have been using the same dropper system in Ireland and Scotland from time immemorial- so I don’t think you have to worry about using a new or specific leader/dropper material??? Gillaroo

Response:

Gillaroo, Here in NSW Australia we can only use 2 flies. Lake fishing it is common practice. I always tie the second fly off the bend of the first. A friend I often fish with ties a 6" dropper for his top fly (like your method). He seems to get hung up more on reeds etc than I do, but it does allow the top fly to swim properly. He catches far more fish on his top fly than me – like a %^&* 8lb brown two weekends ago! I’m considering changing to the 6" dropper system but fear too much tangling during casting – what sort of mono do you use – is stiff stuff preferable. Cheers John Knight Sydney FlyRodders’

Response:

We fish 90% of the time from the shore, hence the reed problem. It can also be a real bugger when trying to get land a fish and your second fly hooks up on a reed – that is one reason why some people here just use single wet flies. Do you really use a blood knot and tie the "bob" onto the tag? I can see it gives the nice 90 degree angle, but I wouldn’t have thought there would be much knot strength in the tag. Cheers John Knight Sydney FlyRodders’

Response:

Ernie, I’ve never seen a trout fly with a weed guard – I think they (often) take the fly too delicately and the weed guard would let them spit the fly. Cheers John Knight Stdney FlyRodders’

Response:

If anyone wants a sketch of how I tie my droppers, please email me direct- Ill be happy to send one. Gillaroo

Response:

John,    I use a six turn blood knot and have never had a blood knot come apart. The dropper is actually an extension of the last section of leader, so even if the knot came apart the dropper would still be connected to the line. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We fish 90% of the time from the shore, hence the reed problem. It can also be a real bugger when trying to get land a fish and your second fly hooks up on a reed – that is one reason why some people here just use single wet flies. Do you really use a blood knot and tie the "bob" onto the tag? I can see it gives the nice 90 degree angle, but I wouldn’t have thought there would be much knot strength in the tag. Cheers John Knight Sydney FlyRodders’

Response:

John,    I think if you read my post again you will see I said "bass flies". Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ernie, I’ve never seen a trout fly with a weed guard – I think they (often) take the fly too delicately and the weed guard would let them spit the fly. Cheers John Knight Stdney FlyRodders’

Response:

Some snipped for brevity What I did experience,which was unusual, on an Irish stream this summer was lassooing a brown- it rose to a small dry spider style dry. I struck, and thought I had hooked a whopper.When I got it in, I found the tippet had gone 360 degrees round the belly of a small  fish, and the fly had caught up in  the tippet. I had dragged the fish side ways through the water!  regards,  Gillaroo.

Reminds me of the time I hog tied & landed a steelhead without hooking it.  It apparently went for the dropper, got the main part of the leader (where the dropper was tied to the tag of the blood knot)wrapped once around its jaw. Meanwhile the tippet made a full nelson around its pectoral fins (from forward under the left pec, over the back, from the rear under the right pec)with the point fly hooked around the main part of the leader. The dropper was hanging free about an inch from its jaw. Until I got it close, I couldn’t figure out why it was giving such a poor fight. Before you buy.

Response:

John,    I have never used them for trout either, but if I were fishing Streamers or minnow imitations I might try it.  They hit them hard. Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ernie, I know you said bass flies – I just don’t think bass fly style weed guards will work on trout flies. The only "weed guard" I’ve ever used on trout flies has been with hackle, by palmering a stiffer than usual neck feather up the hook shank, with a bigger diameter than the hook gape – e.g. a bristly wooly bugger. Regards John Knight Sydney FlyRodders’

Response:

Ernie, I’ve never seen a trout fly with a weed guard –

Dragon Fly nymph patterns sometimes have weed guards fashioned from hanks of Moose hair – the nymphs are fished down and dirty in the weeds and the hair keeps the hook point free of weed.

Response:

Ernie, I know you said bass flies – I just don’t think bass fly style weed guards will work on trout flies. The only "weed guard" I’ve ever used on trout flies has been with hackle, by palmering a stiffer than usual neck feather up the hook shank, with a bigger diameter than the hook gape – e.g. a bristly wooly bugger. Regards John Knight Sydney FlyRodders’

Response:

In the UK our standard set up for lake/loch/lough fishing would have the flies maybe 5 or 6 feet apart, with the ‘point ‘ fly tied to the point, and dropper flies tied to a dropper maybe 6- 8 inches long tied to the main leader  using a blood knot or similar so that they stand out at right angles to the main leader.  Maybe you experience foulhooking because your dry/ nymph combo is only inches apart- what we in the UK call a dropper and you do are slightly different animals.When I talk of a dropper I mean the piece of line 6-8 inches long coming off the main leader.I have not experienced any significant increase of foul hooking using ‘our’ system. What I did experience,which was unusual, on an Irish stream this summer was lassooing a brown- it rose to a small dry spider style dry. I struck, and thought I had hooked a whopper.When I got it in, I found the tippet had gone 360 degrees round the belly of a small  fish, and the fly had caught up in  the tippet. I had dragged the fish side ways through the water!  regards,  Gillaroo.

Response:

Question:

We camped right by a water fall. Barb-Animal lover, nature lover, camper, and mom.

Response:

<<I am planning to visit Glacier National Park in September of 2000.  I’d like suggestions on flyfishing and accomodations there.  Thank you. We tent camped/backpacked there about 9 years ago. My gosh we saw so many grizzly bears. I didn’t sleep too good at night. Every noise I heard freaked me out. Barb-Animal lover, nature lover, camper, and mom.

Response:

Accomodations?  Like with room service? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am planning to visit Glacier National Park in September of 2000.  I’d like suggestions on flyfishing and accomodations there.  Thank you.

Response:

I am planning to visit Glacier National Park in September of 2000.  I’d like suggestions on flyfishing and accomodations there.  Thank you.

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – some 2nd Amendment Gun Oil for your guns?  I’ll be glad to send you a bottle. Best stuff for any weapon you have, especially for anything auto or semi automatic.  Best in the world but the Pentagon doesn’t know it yet.  (as usual). Be glad to send you ‘a sample’.  On me.  It will save you four bucks.  (Expensive stuff to make).  You’re worth a regiment here on ROFF pard. got to keep your fire power up. Mr. G. —

Question:

    My family are planning to camping in Angle Fire, NM.  I been fly-fishing in Red River but never been in Angle Fire.  Anyone have comments or suggestion. please Email me.  Thanks! Happy fly-fishing! —    _/     _/  _/  _/        _/ _/    AlphaPager (972) 597-0457  _/   _/    _/  _/        _/  _/     TI-MSGID: RKS2 _/     _/  _/    _/_/_/  _/    _/www.geocities.com/Yosemite/9916

Response:

    My family are planning to camping in Angle Fire, NM.  I been fly-fishing in Red River but never been in Angle Fire.  Anyone have comments or suggestion. please Email me.  Thanks!

 Rick When we’re  in angel fire we generally fish the cimmaron, downstream from eagles nest lake (about a 30 minute drive) or coyote creek down the mountain toward Mora (new mexico 3 i think) at the coyote creek state park  (30 minutes or so also).  good luck james mahan Please include J Mahan in subject line of email replies.

Response:

Question:

[deleted] I say stick with the SLR and be extra careful. Something I do not know yet is what the ‘practical’ shock-limit is on these SLR’s.  I mean, jostling them about…sticking them here and there…is that OK ? — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Tim, I would recommend putting a skylight filter on your lens. If you bump the front of your lens or scratch it, you have ruined a cheap filter and not an expensive lens. I’ve prevented expensive damage to two or three lenses this way. Just put it on and leave it. Your exposure won’t be noticably affected. Jim

Response:

Hi Moe,

I only bring my camera when I’m hiking and fishing into a pretty, isolated area so it just goes into my daypack with everything else.  The pack stays on the bank when I go into the water.  It works out fine, and I haven’t lost the pack yet.  I don’t wear a vest, though, so I’m not sure how that would work. Dave

Response:

Actually may soften the image and shadows in a pleasing way. Try it out!

Q: Do photographers still use Vaseline for the same effect? A: Not when they’re using a condom.  The petroleum weakens them, and they break. Be careful out there. Dave

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a   ruggedized waterproof camera ? NO and YES. I bought a Pentax IQ zoom waterproof camera (~$250-270) for this purpose after I fell into a stream in New Zealand with my friend’s camera (ruining it and leaving me without a small camera).  I rarely carry my SLR/lenses because of weight and fear that I will ruin a zillion dollars with one false step.  This particular waterproof camera is pretty good – it is not a simple point and shoot.  I wear it around my neck all the time when fishing, and I take more pictures now. cheers,       -tgades I’ve got the same camera – a great piece of work. To bad there’s no built-in lens cap for it, but it’s 99.9999% on the way to being the perfect camera for fishing. Nice macro feature for close-ups. Pentax has a new model (IQ 110?) for more money – with a very wide angle lens for panorama shots, but this one gives up on the water- resistance feature, I think. I also carry my camera in a plastic zip-lock baggie (my wallet’s got a baggie too) just to be sure it’ll survive my next unplanned wetdown. If I’m with someone else, they learn how to shoot a picture with it in about 10 seconds.

I tried the inexpensive point and shoot.  My photos were fine, but my ex-girlfriend couldn’t take a picture of me, with my fish, without cutting my head off.  I’ve easily got 20 pictures of me with fish that aren’t up to quality for the album. At least she had other attributes… I seem to recall Outer Banks used to sell a camera bag, made for several different makes.  Essentially a ziplock attached to a lens filter. Anyone ever use one?  Probably not good for underwater shots, but I bet it’d hold up through one of my early morning baths. — Mark N. Cahill For E-mail remove the _Remove_This from the reply to address.   On a side note, my grandfather aways told me you couldn’t catch fish until you got water in you waders.  I’ve ammended that to you can’t catch trophy fish until you’ve ruined the camera.  His maxim still holds true though.

Response:

(But, being prone to being prone…

Priceless ! — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

[deleted] I say stick with the SLR and be extra careful.

Something I do not know yet is what the ‘practical’ shock-limit is on these SLR’s.  I mean, jostling them about…sticking them here and there…is that OK ?   — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

DENNIS VICK responds: Well I hate to mention this in a family area, but condoms work just

great for protecting your SLR from the environment(non-ribbed type!) and you can still use the buttons, etc. And if you use the colored ones, It creates Great visual filter effects, Right?  Now, if they only made polorized ones for under water shots..;)

Response:

[deleted] I say stick with the SLR and be extra careful. Something I do not know yet is what the ‘practical’ shock-limit is on these SLR’s.  I mean, jostling them about…sticking them here and there…is that OK ? — TimW Halfordian Golfer

The better models in almost all camera makers lines are very shock resistant. Nikon F series, Pentax K series, Olympus OM, Cannon F series. If you keep your gear in a well padded and designed bag it will take a drop from body height without any problem. Zoom lenses can be the exception I have had them break when I rolled a bag of gear down a stairs. They can’t handle a blow head on. If you are really rough or travel a log get a hard case. I have run over my hard case with my truck without damage…….woops. If you do dunk a high quality slr equipment in a river get it to a camera repair person as soon as possible. If you dunk it good in saltwater look for a new camera. In using your camera. Remove from well padded case put strap over neck then make your pictures, change your film etc. Never set your gear on the trunk of your car. If you need a clean surface set your gear on the driver’s side hood. If you are hiking around rocks and need quick access to your camera keep it around your neck with the lens facing your body. This is photojournalist style. If you have been working in a dusty area use canned air to remove dust. I don’t care where you put your lens cap but make a habbit of putting it in the same place every time. All the Best, Michael Smith

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi. but that is not why I post… How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for ….etc…. — TimW Halfordian Golfer      Tim – I carry a small 35mm auto-everything camera with me, and I protect it by putting it in a sturdy ziplock bag. Just before you close the last little corner of the ziplock, wrap your lips around it tightly and suck out the air in the bag; then quickly close the seal. This sort of molds to bag to the camera – you can even take a decent shot with the bag still on the camera in desperate circumstances. It has worked for me for many, many years.     In rereading this I see I have left myself wide open to your brand of humor, Tim. Try to restrain yourself, I am a respectable old lady of 66 [but still fishing!].      

Thank goodness you realize it as the harmless humor that it is …life is too short not to laugh…laugh loud and laugh often… Thanks very much for the tip and I will not take advantage of the obvious cheap shot that you left me and my devils workshop…   — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

MS How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a MS component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for MS the day on the river on Saturday, my vest could carry water or MS the camera, but not both, and I did not want another bag. MS Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a MS ruggedized waterproof camera ?  Perhaps the fishing stuff stays MS home and only the photography equipment makes the truck ride MS next time. Well I hate to mention this in a family area, but condoms work just great for protecting your SLR from the environment(non-ribbed type!) and you can still use the buttons, etc.

You either have a really small camera or a really big asdfj NO CARRIER                                                 John Fereira

Response:

DD Actually may soften the DD image and shadows in a pleasing way. Try it out! DD DD Q: Do photographers still use Vaseline for the same effect? DD DD A: Not when they’re using a condom.  The petroleum weakens them, and they DD break. Be careful out there. Oh man, I knew I forgot something important in the original post, and now I remember it… Be certain to buy the UNLUBRICATED version of the condom for use with your cameras! Now for the photography question. YES, wedding photographers still do this on occasion, but usually on a screw on filter instead of the actual lense, at least after their first try. I have also made many different special effects in the past by fooling with things on the filter. You can create a split-image rangefinder of sorts by a solid black stripe right down the middle of your filter for instance. Doesn’t show on the final image at all. Filters may be purchased with scored perpendicular lines on the called "starfire" filters which create incredble star highlights from candles, sunlight reflections off the water, etc. Dennis Vick … nfx v2.6 [C0000]                                                        

Response:

[deleted] I say stick with the SLR and be extra careful. Something I do not know yet is what the ‘practical’ shock-limit is on these SLR’s.  I mean, jostling them about…sticking them here and there…is that OK ?

It probably depends on the model.  My Canon has been on every backpacking trip I’ve been on in the past couple years and accompanies me on most fishing trips.  So far, I haven’t managed to even put a scratch on it.  If it is raining, I can take it out, take a picture, whipe the rain off, and put it back in the case with no harm done.  One of these times, I’m sure I’ll take a nasty tumble and kill it, but so far so good.   Later,      - Ken — Ken Janik Oregon State University Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – MS How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a MS component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for MS the day on the river on Saturday, my vest could carry water or MS the camera, but not both, and I did not want another bag. MS Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a MS ruggedized waterproof camera ?  Perhaps the fishing stuff stays MS home and only the photography equipment makes the truck ride MS next time. Well I hate to mention this in a family area, but condoms work just great for protecting your SLR from the environment(non-ribbed type!) and you can still use the buttons, etc. Good Lord, I hate to see the reponse from this one…but I AM SERIOUS. BTW, be sure to buy a good name brand. Leaks in these things can be pretty devastating. I swear, I am serious, Try it…….really! These things will blow up to 6′ diameter. No problem with a little camera. Stretch the material over the lense part so its close to clear. Why am I explaining this to you anyway, didn’t your parents tell you anything! Teachers, clergy, planned parenthood? Oh heck, just have fun. It works!

Interesting… You shoot through the stretched latex ???? I can really see explaining the condoms to my wife as I head out the door for a weeks fishing in Idaho… "Really honey, they are, uh, for my, uh, camera…!!!" This is a family area ?   Scary, as you can be in alt.things.even.your.mama.never.told.you in about 3 mouse clicks… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Moe, I have a Nikon FG and a Nikon F70, both of which cause me to cring a little when I bring them close to the water. I enjoy the artistic element of using an SLR too much to justify getting a waterproof auto camera. I have thus run into your problem. So far I have handled it by only taking the camera out of the car for dedicated photo shoots. I try to avoid wading with the camera if possible. When I’m done I get the rod out again and enjoy the fishing.  Last year my sis’ accompanied me on a trip and I got her to take some photos of me from the bank while I was wading. I say stick with the SLR and be extra careful. Paul

I’ll second the sticking with the SLR.  I have a Canon Elan.  I went to G.I. Joe’s and got a small (6"x7"x2") canvas bag.  It’s not waterproof, but it keeps the rain out.  It’ll hold the body and one lens, detached of course.  I wrap them both in ziplock freezer bags and throw those little water absorption pads that come with most electronic equipment in with them (you know, the ones that advise not eating them).  Most electonic stores will give them away from the packaging of their floor models. I attach it to my vest or backpack with a carbeaner(SP?), but if the wading looks too risky I’ll leave it on the bank of the river.  Yes, I tend to fish in VERY isolated areas, do not try this in more crowded areas. My $0.02,      - Ken — Ken Janik Oregon State University Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering

Response:

Hi. but that is not why I post… How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for ….etc…. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

     Tim – I carry a small 35mm auto-everything camera with me, and I protect it by putting it in a sturdy ziplock bag. Just before you close the last little corner of the ziplock, wrap your lips around it tightly and suck out the air in the bag; then quickly close the seal. This sort of molds to bag to the camera – you can even take a decent shot with the bag still on the camera in desperate circumstances. It has worked for me for many, many years.     In rereading this I see I have left myself wide open to your brand of humor, Tim. Try to restrain yourself, I am a respectable old lady of 66 [but still fishing!].       Louise Scharrenberg

Response:

BD Well I hate to mention this in a family area, but condoms work just great BD protecting your SLR from the environment(non-ribbed type!) and you can sti BD use the buttons, etc. BD BD You either have a really small camera or a really big No big thing Roger.  Without getting too detailed, I have actually seen these things blown up to 5′ diameters and paper macheyed(sp?) in the old "phyche shops" of the 60’s. Pretty scary under black lights with flourescent posters and incense burning… Dennis Vick … nfx v2.6 [C0000]                                                        

Response:

MS Interesting… MS MS You shoot through the stretched latex ???? Yep! You stretch it over the lense until it becomes pretty clear. Don’t have the technical reason for you, but cameras tend to ignore things that are very close to the lense. I have shot right thorough chain link fences for instance with no noticeable affect provided I was close enough. Actually may soften the image and shadows in a pleasing way. Try it out! MS I can really see explaining the condoms to my wife as I head out the MS door for a weeks fishing in Idaho… MS MS "Really honey, they are, uh, for my, uh, camera…!!!" Reminds of a story where the hunter bitches out his wife for not packing his socks after a three week hunting trip.. "But I did pack your socks honey!" "Where the he** did you pack them then?" "In the case with your rifle!" Dennis Vick … nfx v2.6 [C0000]                                                        

Response:

Hi. I recently acquired my first 35mmSLR, and I really, really enjoy learning about and using it.  It is my sincere hope that I can capture some of the joys of flyfishing on film as it satisfies me.  I also want to try and document some of what I feel is very wrong in our sport, particularly overcrowding on the river and wounded or sickly fish that should be killed… but that is not why I post… How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for the day on the river on Saturday, my vest could carry water or the camera, but not both, and I did not want another bag. As it turns out, I had the opportunity to get some great shots of my dear friend flyfishing, but as it also turned out, I did a little uninentional snorkelling on saturday AM too…I would have gotten the camera wet, at the very least. Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a ruggedized waterproof camera ?  Perhaps the fishing stuff stays home and only the photography equipment makes the truck ride next time. Tia, — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a    ruggedized waterproof camera ?   NO and YES. I bought a Pentax IQ zoom waterproof camera (~$250-270) for this purpose after I fell into a stream in New Zealand with my friend’s camera (ruining it and leaving me without a small camera).  I rarely carry my SLR/lenses because of weight and fear that I will ruin a zillion dollars with one false step.  This particular waterproof camera is pretty good – it is not a simple point and shoot.  I wear it around my neck all the time when fishing, and I take more pictures now. cheers,         -tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi. I recently acquired my first 35mmSLR, and I really, really enjoy learning about and using it……. How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for the day on the river on Saturday, my vest could carry water or the camera, but not both, and I did not want another bag. As it turns out, I had the opportunity to get some great shots of my dear friend flyfishing, but as it also turned out, I did a little uninentional snorkelling on saturday AM too…I would have gotten the camera wet, at the very least. Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a ruggedized waterproof camera ?  Perhaps the fishing stuff stays home and only the photography equipment makes the truck ride next time.

Over the last twenty-five years I’ve had different cameras, SLR’s, range finders and one fixed lens. Sailing the ocean, mountaineering in unforgiving places, and stream side require different kind of cammera, NOT. Your camera, like your fly rod, is just a tool with limitations. What I discovered is, to take really wonderful shots use a SLR and buy every lens and gadget you find to help you at your task. Forget about fishing you won’t have time. You’ll be checking your light meter, checking back lighting, comparing gray scale zones, experimenting with how far you can push the ASA. And coming full circle when you move to a new location. Man that sounds like a lot of work and it really is. You could empty out you fishing vest and fill it full of camera stuff. Bingo, you are an official professional photographer or at least look like one. But for my money I went for the range finder type. One lens and one filter and that’s it. No fuss, good pic’s, with limitations. I just wanted to record what I saw, where I’d been, and what I’d experience. Just didn’t want to build a monument around it. I recommend these three range finder cameras, Reolli 35S (older german made w/big lens), Nikon Action Touch (really water proof to 12 feet), and an old Cannon Cannonete which is my current clicker. If my camera fell into bad grace I would not feel to badly because I mostly find used cameras that others have traded in to buy SLR’s. There’s a good steady supply, you just have to look for the deals. They do make waterproof bags that will keep your cameras dry, mostly used by white water rafters. But I hate cumbersome bags and am willing to take the chance on dousing the camera. Maybe if your fascination of fishing pictures really develops you could start taking pictures underwater of trout behavior and taking the fly. Yes, like flyfishing, it’s just another disease. When you get the darkroom going I could use some flytying gear, hint, hint, hint, since you will be up to your elbows in developer and fixer. — Doug Knight                           metalfab<atefaxinc.com Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $500.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.

Response:

MS How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a MS component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for MS the day on the river on Saturday, my vest could carry water or MS the camera, but not both, and I did not want another bag. MS Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a MS ruggedized waterproof camera ?  Perhaps the fishing stuff stays MS home and only the photography equipment makes the truck ride MS next time. Well I hate to mention this in a family area, but condoms work just great for protecting your SLR from the environment(non-ribbed type!) and you can still use the buttons, etc. Good Lord, I hate to see the reponse from this one…but I AM SERIOUS. BTW, be sure to buy a good name brand. Leaks in these things can be pretty devastating. I swear, I am serious, Try it…….really! These things will blow up to 6′ diameter. No problem with a little camera. Stretch the material over the lense part so its close to clear. Why am I explaining this to you anyway, didn’t your parents tell you anything! Teachers, clergy, planned parenthood? Oh heck, just have fun. It works! Dennis Vick … nfx v2.6 [C0000]                                                        

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a   ruggedized waterproof camera ?   NO and YES. I bought a Pentax IQ zoom waterproof camera (~$250-270) for this purpose after I fell into a stream in New Zealand with my friend’s camera (ruining it and leaving me without a small camera).  I rarely carry my SLR/lenses because of weight and fear that I will ruin a zillion dollars with one false step.  This particular waterproof camera is pretty good – it is not a simple point and shoot.  I wear it around my neck all the time when fishing, and I take more pictures now. cheers,    -tgades

I’ve got the same camera – a great piece of work. To bad there’s no built-in lens cap for it, but it’s 99.9999% on the way to being the perfect camera for fishing. Nice macro feature for close-ups. Pentax has a new model (IQ 110?) for more money – with a very wide angle lens for panorama shots, but this one gives up on the water- resistance feature, I think. I also carry my camera in a plastic zip-lock baggie (my wallet’s got a baggie too) just to be sure it’ll survive my next unplanned wetdown. If I’m with someone else, they learn how to shoot a picture with it in about 10 seconds. Don B. Wishful collector of Gillums and Dickersons – owner of Montague, H-I and Heddons.

Response:

I, too, rarely carry my SLR when fishing. And I often regret it when I get back prints from my point and shoot that are incorrectly exposed. (But, being prone to being prone, it’s the only way to go for me). Does anyone have any ideas for an inexpensive (<$150) auto-focus that allows for manual exposure setting? John Nesselrode Shawnee, KS

Response:

there a couple of nice "photo backpacks" on the market. the one i got has a space for water or snacks or whatever. although it is not 100% waterproof – it will keep my expensive gear dry during brief recreational swims. i have decided that the inconvenience of the extra weight on my back is outweighed by the potential for great photos. p.s.   olympus makes a very small camera (will fit in almost any vest pocket) that is weatherproof. i believe they cost around $200.   greg

Response:

Hi Moe, I have a Nikon FG and a Nikon F70, both of which cause me to cring a little when I bring them close to the water. I enjoy the artistic element of using an SLR too much to justify getting a waterproof auto camera. I have thus run into your problem. So far I have handled it by only taking the camera out of the car for dedicated photo shoots. I try to avoid wading with the camera if possible. When I’m done I get the rod out again and enjoy the fishing.  Last year my sis’ accompanied me on a trip and I got her to take some photos of me from the bank while I was wading. I say stick with the SLR and be extra careful. Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi. How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for the day on the river on Saturday, my vest could carry water or the camera, but not both, and I did not want another bag. Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a ruggedized waterproof camera ?  Perhaps the fishing stuff stays home and only the photography equipment makes the truck ride next time. Tia, — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

Question:

   I fished the upper Arkansas several years ago upstream of Buena Vista. I remember public access was limited but locals directed me to some public water accessed at a bridge just up the highway a few miles from Buena Vista that was fun.  I got a few nice ones and lots of small ones.  Ask around at the shops. -al

Response:

I will be spending a week in the Upper Arkansas river valley Aug 5 – 10. Will be with Wife and three small kids (to small to Fly fish), so at best I’ll have an hour or two a day to fish.  Any advice on places to fish, flys to use and local shops to offer advice? Thanks for the help, Dan

Response:

I will be spending a week in the Upper Arkansas river valley Aug 5 – 10. Will be with Wife and three small kids (to small to Fly fish), so at best I’ll have an hour or two a day to fish.  Any advice on places to fish, flys to use and local shops to offer advice? Thanks for the help, Dan

I went to the Arkansas this weekend, but north of Buena vista on Hwy. 24.  It was too cold and rainy to fish, and I was discouraged by an utter lack of public access to the river.  I believe that the Arkansas near Salida provides good fishing and more public access.  I think all the normal patterns will work in the summer… good luck, — MORGAN P. BROWN                 Colorado School of Mines                 Rice University                 Phone:   (303) 215-9190 URL:     http://timna.mines.edu/~mbrown                http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~mpbro

Response:

Question:

The Madison River is open from Hebgen to Quake Lakem, year around.   It’s closed from Quake to Macatee till the 3rd Saturday in May.  It’s open from Macatee to Ennis Bridge, year around, and it is closed from Ennis Bridge to Ennis Lake from December 1 through the 3rd Saturday in May. Dave Kumlien, Montana Troutfitters,Bozeman html

Hi Dave, Thanks for the information, it’s right on. I enjoy your posts, keep them up. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response:

Does anyone know if the special closure on the Madison between Lyons and Pallisades is in effect for 1996?

From what I have heard it is open. Take Care,

Response:

   Here’s the deal on the upper Madison.  Quake to Lyons will open on the 3rd Saturday in May and will close at the end of November.  Lyons to Squaw creek is open the same way.  Squaw to Windy Point is permanently closed as a study/control section.  Windy Point to Macatee is closed right now, but it will reopen on the 3rd Saturday in May.  Macatee to Ennis Bridge is open right now, and will remain open year around.  Ennis Bridge to the Ennis Lake is closed(critical goose nesting habitat by the lake), and it will reopen the 3rd Saturday in May.  If you can keep track of all of that, you pass the bar exam! http://www.gomontana.com/Business/Trout/trout.html

Response:

Does anyone know if the special closure on the Madison between Lyons and Pallisades is in effect for 1996?

as far as I know the river is currently closed from quake lake to ennis until the 3rd saturday in may….

Response:

I think its open in the upper stretch because my nephew was fishing around the Raynolds Pass bridge during spring break.

Response:

I think its open in the upper stretch because my nephew was fishing around the Raynolds Pass bridge during spring break.

Probably illegally…as I understand it the rive ris closed from Quake Lake to below Ennis until sometime in May..

Response:

The Madison River is open from Hebgen to Quake Lakem, year around.   It’s closed from Quake to Macatee till the 3rd Saturday in May.  It’s open from Macatee to Ennis Bridge, year around, and it is closed from Ennis Bridge to Ennis Lake from December 1 through the 3rd Saturday in May. Dave Kumlien, Montana Troutfitters,Bozeman html

Response:

Does anyone know if the special closure on the Madison between Lyons and Pallisades is in effect for 1996?

Response:

Does anyone know if the special closure on the Madison between Lyons and Pallisades is in effect for 1996?

Looks like it will be open.  See http://www.cyberport.net/flyfish/cent_reg.html for regs.  A phone call may be in order. — "If the facts do not conform to the theory, they must be disposed of."      Maier’s Law

Response:

Question:

I am new to the newsgroup and seem to be having a problem. I use Flash Sessions on AOL then read the posts from Personal Filing Cabinet. The problem I have is I seem to be losing the original posts and only have the replies (Re…xxx).  Sometimes I can "read between the lines" and figure out the original message, but not always. Am I doing something wrong? Anyone form AOL to help? BTW I am really enjoying the discussions! Thanks, J Lynn Wright

Response:

I am new to the newsgroup and seem to be having a problem. I use Flash Sessions on AOL then read the posts from Personal Filing Cabinet. The problem I have is I seem to be losing the original posts and only have the replies (Re…xxx).  Sometimes I can "read between the lines" and figure out the original message, but not always. Am I doing something wrong? Anyone form AOL to help? BTW I am really enjoying the discussions! Thanks, J Lynn Wright

 Dont’ know the answer but I’m on internet and the postings change very rapidly. I’d guess the newsgroup server is small and old messages are overwritten by newer ones. I think the definition of old is about 2 days. I have no idea what the number in parns is either. Maybe hits?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am new to the newsgroup and seem to be having a problem. I use Flash Sessions on AOL then read the posts from Personal Filing Cabinet. The problem I have is I seem to be losing the original posts and only have the replies (Re…xxx).  Sometimes I can "read between the lines" and figure out the original message, but not always. Am I doing something wrong? Anyone form AOL to help? BTW I am really enjoying the discussions! Thanks, J Lynn Wright Dont’ know the answer but I’m on internet and the postings change very rapidly. I’d guess the newsgroup server is small and old messages are overwritten by newer ones. I think the definition of old is about 2 days. I have no idea what the number in parns is either. Maybe hits?

   I use netscape on the internet and I’ve noticed many articles are delayed a week or more (the posting date is usually included on the original post).   If you are responding to a post and want the original poster to see it in a timely manner, then you might consider mailing a copy to the poster.    I knew Tim W. gave it long before I read his post because I got everybodies response to it.  (Tim, you’re taking this group too seriously.) Rob Gregoire Dallas, Tx

Response:

writes: I am new to the newsgroup and seem to be having a problem. I use Flash Sessions on AOL then read the posts from Personal Filing Cabinet. The problem I have is I seem to be losing the original posts and only have the replies (Re…xxx).  Sometimes I can "read between the lines" and figure out the original message, but not always. Am I doing something wrong? Anyone form AOL to help?

I use the same system to flash mail and newsgroups and sometimes the replies show up before the original post.  That’s usually no big deal as many of the replies copy the original part of the message.  This happens on all systems (I also have a netcom account) so don’t worry about it. You’re not doing anything wrong.                                         Welcome to the neighborhood,                                                                  Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am new to the newsgroup and seem to be having a problem. I use Flash Sessions on AOL then read the posts from Personal Filing Cabinet. The problem I have is I seem to be losing the original posts and only have the replies (Re…xxx).  Sometimes I can "read between the lines" and figure out the original message, but not always. Am I doing something wrong? Anyone form AOL to help? BTW I am really enjoying the discussions! Thanks, J Lynn Wright Dont’ know the answer but I’m on internet and the postings change very rapidly. I’d guess the newsgroup server is small and old messages are overwritten by newer ones. I think the definition of old is about 2 days. I have no idea what the number in parns is either. Maybe hits?   I use netscape on the internet and I’ve noticed many articles are delayed a week or more (the posting date is usually included on the original post).   If you are responding to a post and want the original poster to see it in a timely manner, then you might consider mailing a copy to the poster.

The newsreader that you use has nothing to do with the amount of propogation delay encountered on your system.  Actually, you’re talking about two different things here.  The propogation delay an article has from the time it is posted until the time it appears on your system is the result of the number of systems it has to pass through, the bandwidth of the networks they are on, and how each system is configured to pass on article onto the system it is feeding.  Some system will queue articles and send as a batch.  If any intermediate system between the posting host and the system on which you’re running your newsreader is experience problems (such as a disc space shortage) the propogation delay might be high. The other issue is related to expire times.  Each news site can be configure to "expire" articles after a certain time.  If a site has a disc space shortage that time might be real short (like 2 days).  If the article isn’t read from the time that it appears on your system until it’s expire time you won’t see it (except maybe as part of a response). I know this has nothing to do with fishing but I thought some might appreciate an explanation about how the articles you post and read make their way around the Internet. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response: