Question:

Having just(moved here and) gotten into flyfishing, I was wondering if I could only buy 10 flies—which ones (size,color?)would YOU have to have to in your vest? Thanks, Amelia

Response:

Having just(moved here and) gotten into flyfishing, I was wondering if I could only buy 10 flies—which ones (size,color?)would YOU have to have to in your vest? Thanks, Amelia

I hardly ever use anything other than a parachute Adams, a Royal Wulff or a Yellow Humpy in sizes 14, 16 and 18. I’m a dry fly purist so I’ll defer to Wayno to give you the benefit of his experience with the nymphs of the Blue Ridge. — Ken Fortenberry- pun most definitely intended

Response:

Having just(moved here and) gotten into flyfishing, I was wondering if I could only buy 10 flies—which ones (size,color?)would YOU have to have to in your vest? Thanks, Amelia

I would buy 9  size 10 foam yellow humpies  and one size 24  gray midge.  As a beginner you will probably loose the humpies in the trees but at least you will be able to  see them when you hit the stream. I would get the midge to amaze my friends when they ask about flies and also to amaze yourself by realizing   that  advanced fishing is difficult. Guess I am at level two in fly fishing and hope this is the year I begin to catch a few fish. Indian Joe

Response:

Having just(moved here and) gotten into flyfishing, I was wondering if I could only buy 10 flies—which ones (size,color?)would YOU have to have to in your vest? Thanks, Amelia

    mr. fortenberry, in his characteristically humble and helpful fashion, has pointed you in the right direction with regard to dry flies, although i must say that after mid may, my preference for top water flies would be kaufmann’s "stimulators" in sizes 10 (hopper imitation), 14 and 16 (caddis/stonefly) and in yellow, lime, and royal colors.     i have never used a nymph in my life, so i can’t help you with such things. wayno (ok, ok, here’s the deal on the nymphs:  prince; red squirrel; size 10, 14.) and, for down home personal service, and even more expertise, contact walt winter at ezflyfish.com.  he is a fellow roffian, guide, and blower of smoke.

Response:

I’ve noticed that yellow seems to be favored in dry flies by fishermen in the Blue Ridge.  Yellow Humpies, yellow/orange stimulators, Harry Murray’s Mr. Rapidan (yellow wings and yellow mixed into the dubbing), Walt’s Yallahammer, etc.

        well, that’s certainly true for early may through early october.  but i have *always* done better from march through early may on adams or royal wulff patterns.  ernie shweibert (one of my dearest friend, have i ever told you the absolutely intriguing story of how we first met?) would call it a sulphur thang, i reckon. wayno

Response:

 ernie shweibert (one of my dearest friend, have i ever told you the absolutely intriguing story of how we first met?)

No, but if you don’t tell me every detail next time we meet, I’ll be angry.

Response:

Point 1: you have my sympathy. This hobby will soon turn into an obsession Point 2: You’ve received some great advice from some real experts. They know what they are talking about, hard as that may be to believe! (this is as of 7:30 p.m. CT on Monday; I dunno what else you might hear! Be careful.) Point 3: My advice (worth exactly what it costs): go to the local walmart store and buy some of their cheap flies; take them with your gear to the nearest stocked water, and practice, practice, practice. Then as you improve your presentation skills and develop the desire for more of a challenge, get some of the flies that’ve been previously recommended and search out some more challenging water. Ezflyfish.com seems to me like a great source. Point 4: find some great folks to fish with who will help get you out on those cold rainy days when, without encouragement, you’d end up couch-potatoing in front of the TV. Bob Patton

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Having just(moved here and) gotten into flyfishing, I was wondering if I could only buy 10 flies—which ones (size,color?)would YOU have to have to in your vest? Thanks, Amelia

Response:

[snip] and, for down home personal service, and even more expertise, contact walt winter at ezflyfish.com.  he is a fellow roffian, guide, and blower of smoke.

Just don’t accept any yellow humpies from him.  <BSEG they tend not to have points – ask Mr. Fortenberry I’ve only been able to fish NC once but did OK on Royal Wulffs, Royal Coachman, and Irrestistibles.  Of course, I also caught some on streamers. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Having just(moved here and) gotten into flyfishing, I was wondering if I could only buy 10 flies—which ones (size,color?)would YOU have to have to in your vest? Thanks, Amelia

Amelia, The aforementioned flies by the most distinguished roffians are excellent suggestions…. I’ll humbly add my .02 worth…. Adams Parachute size 12 Adams Parachute size 14 Adams Parachute size 16 Adams Parachute size 18 Yellow Humpy size 12 Yellow Humpy size 14 Yellow Humpy size 16 Orange Stimulator size 12 Orange Stimulator size 14 Orange Stimulator size 16 if one of peculiar tastes was to expand their horizons….. Orange Ausable Wulff (brookies love ‘em) March Browns…… especially in March! BWO’s yellowthangy parachute Tan or grey elk hair caddis Sulphurs…. all styles anything with yellow. anything with orange. small wet flies dropped behind a stimulator…… (i caught way too many fish yesterday using a yellahammer dropper) for bottom dwellers, the following nymphs are standard fare…. beadhead princes, hare’s ear, pheasant tails….. for big brown trout….. big olive wooly buggers. for selective trout….. size 20-24 cdc emergers or griffiths gnats. hope this helps…. Tight Lines, –Walt Fly Fishing NC & more… http://www.ezflyfish.com http://www.wilsoncreekoutfitters.com

Response:

Point 1: you have my sympathy. This hobby will soon turn into an obsession Point 2: You’ve received some great advice from some real experts.

Hey, I thought my advice was great too.

Response:

Having just(moved here and) gotten into flyfishing, I was wondering if I could only buy 10 flies—which ones (size,color?)would YOU have to have to in your vest?

I don’t think you need 10 patterns.  Pick the flies based on the water type. In western NC that means basically freestone mountain streams that are relatively infertile.  That means a lot of pocket water and opportunistic rather than selective trout .  So use something that stays afloat (if it’s a dry fly) and the fish can see in the broken water.  So use a #12 Parachute Adams or #14 Humpy and save the #18 No-hackle BWO and #22 Griffith’s Gnat for the tailwaters and spring creeks.  Go a little bigger and/or a little fuzzier and/or a little more flash.  A #14 beadhead Hare’s Ear nymph instead of a #18 Pheasant Tail.  Any searching pattern will catch fish, since there are no bigtime haches that the trout get real selective to in most waters (there might be exceptions, such as midges on the Davidson).  A Parachute Adams is more or less a mayfly imitation, but on infertile waters the fish take it as a gray Thingamajiggy that fell out of a tree for all I know. I’ve noticed that yellow seems to be favored in dry flies by fishermen in the Blue Ridge.  Yellow Humpies, yellow/orange stimulators, Harry Murray’s Mr. Rapidan (yellow wings and yellow mixed into the dubbing), Walt’s Yallahammer, etc.

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re missing something. A float tube in many states is considered a boat. And CG regulations require you to have a personal flotation device handy on the boat. When float tubes go bad, they often dont’ just leak a little, they deflate quickly. Every year it seems, at least one person dies because his float tube deflates and he/she panics and gets stuck getting out of it or can not swim. Or back home in the southeast, float tubes are a favorite way to fish the tailwaters, and it is not difficult to get careless and upended on moving waters, especially during unscheduled releases.. As long as you’re not stuck under a rock or a log, the floatation device will at least bring you back to the surface. Wayne Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see the point of wearing a life vest in a float tube. A float tube by definition floats, doesn’t it? If you fall out, can’t you just hang on to it?

Wayne makes some additional good points r.w. George

  george.vcf

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Response:

You’re missing something.

Well, I’m not going to start wearing a life jacket in my float tube. I can always rely on the whistle I had to buy in Yellowstone if I get in trouble. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Well, I’m not going to start wearing a life jacket in my float tube. I can always rely on the whistle I had to buy in Yellowstone if I get in trouble.

Or maybe someone will happen by with 100 wine corks. <g — Charlie…

Response:

Anyhow r.w. I bought a couple of those minature, under the vest life-vests and I don’t go wading in water over my head without one on.

        it’s statements like that one that make me question whether or not we could exist without you, george.         really, though, i thought you could simply walk on top of water over your head. wayno

Response:

Well, I’m not going to start wearing a life jacket in my float tube. I can always rely on the whistle I had to buy in Yellowstone if I get in trouble. Or maybe someone will happen by with 100 wine corks. <g

Won’t be necessary.  The little ball inside the whistle is made from cork. Given the well known crowding on Yellowstone waters, it should be obvious that a single toot on the whistle would cause everyone in the immediate area to hurl his or her own whistle at the poor unfortunate, thus providing enough little cork balls to float even the densest ROFFian until the appropriate rescue personnel arrive on the scene. Wolfgang ya gotta love that sense of selfless cooperation

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I’m not going to start wearing a life jacket in my float tube. I can always rely on the whistle I had to buy in Yellowstone if I get in trouble. Or maybe someone will happen by with 100 wine corks. <g Won’t be necessary.  The little ball inside the whistle is made from cork. Given the well known crowding on Yellowstone waters, it should be obvious that a single toot on the whistle would cause everyone in the immediate area to hurl his or her own whistle at the poor unfortunate, thus providing enough little cork balls to float even the densest ROFFian until the appropriate rescue personnel arrive on the scene. Wolfgang ya gotta love that sense of selfless cooperation

Some people have been known to drown, while others were wetting their whistles. TL MC

Response:

As long as you’re not stuck under a rock or a log, the floatation device will at least bring you back to the surface.

…so your next of kin can claim the body before it gets all yucky.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

Well, I’m not going to start wearing a life jacket in my float tube. I can always rely on the whistle I had to buy in Yellowstone if I get in trouble. Or maybe someone will happen by with 100 wine corks. <g

Man, have you guys got the wrong theory on this…pull the cork, drink the wine, put the cork back in the bottle, and then toss him both. You’d not need anywhere near 100 – I’d bet that the cork AND the bottle offer more flotation than just the cork, and that way, everyone is happy…. TC, R

Response:

rw  wrote Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see the point of wearing a life vest in a float tube. A float tube by definition floats, doesn’t it? If you fall out, can’t you just hang on to it?

I think it’s pretty clear that if you only have one floatation device, in this case, your tube, and it fails… you’re sunk. I recommend one of the auto inflatable life vests as a back up…they have a little ‘panic’ cord that causes the vest to inflate immediatly from a CO2 cartridge.  I understand they have these in models that are basically like suspenders until you need them.  I’m not sure how bulky these are.  Personally, I use an auto inflatable that packs nicely into a pouch approx 10"x6"x2" that easily fits into one of the large storage pockets on my tube.  I would strongly recommend such a device to anyone, especially those who still use a donut style tube. Another word to the wise regarding donut tubes.  Have you ever figured out what you’d do if you fell over in shallow water as you are stepping out of your tube? It’s a good idea to think, in advance, about what you’d do in this situation.  I have heard that some people have drowned just this way. Personally, I use a U-boat that’s got a styrofoam block as a seat.  The latter will float me even if the tube completely deflates.  Given the fact that I wear neoprene waders, and I still keep my auto-inflatable vest in a storage pocket, I feel pretty unsinkable.  (By the way, I keep a whistle too) (Just my luck, I’ll still figure a way to drown myself even with all that back-up!) FiddleAway

Response:

Oh boy BJC.  If ever there was a river to have a Personal Floatation Device, I would think the Deschutes just about rates right up there.  The least someone should do is put a small bottle of Gehrke’s Fly Floatation Device in their vest.  At the last second, they can smear it on their face giving them a chance for a couple of last breaths and casts?

Oh man…if a whole bottle were to fall in a river…man…I shudder. That would have drastic consequences. Iimagine the whole river floating…higher and higher all the way to the jetstream where it flows ethereal and winds its way back to the dream. By the way?  Do you need a free hat B.C.?

Yes, I was thinking it should say…. "Get some Ginkee on your Fingee" Your pal, — The Halfordian Golfer The deceipt ends with the lure.

Response:

Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see the point of wearing a life vest in a float tube. A float tube by definition floats, doesn’t it? If you fall out, can’t you just hang on to it? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – rw  wrote Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see the point of wearing a life vest in a float tube. A float tube by definition floats, doesn’t it? If you fall out, can’t you just hang on to it? I think it’s pretty clear that if you only have one floatation device, in this case, your tube, and it fails… you’re sunk. I can swim. In fact, I can swim pretty well. If I couldn’t swim I probably wouldn’t use a float tube. Life in a series of tradeoffs. I think my chance of a catastrophic float-tube failure, leaving me somewhere from which I couldn’t swim to shore, is pretty remote. That chance doesn’t (in my opinion) merit me using a life vest. I’ll roll those dice, and if they come up snake eyes so be it.

Actually, I was addressing your original statement which was that you do not see the point of wearing a vest.  Actually,  I think you knew in advance why most people have backup floatation devices, but you wanted to make your fatalistic point about snake eyes. I see your point, and I can respect your attitude.  In fact, if having backup weren’t so easy, low hassle, and inexpensive, I might even cop it myself. But, flotation backup is easy and cheap and death by drowning really gives me the creeps.  So as long as I can imagine realistic situations (and I can), though unlikely, where having backup would save my life (when not having them would not), I’ll take it. That is the point for me and I suspect that’s the point for most people (which, as I said, I think you knew already, right?) FiddleAway

Response:

Actually, I was addressing your original statement which was that you do not see the point of wearing a vest.  Actually,  I think you knew in advance why most people have backup floatation devices, but you wanted to make your fatalistic point about snake eyes.

I didn’t mean to imply that someone who wears a life vest or a "backup floatation device" is stupid. I’m sorry if it came across that way. It’s just that in my personal experience I haven’t felt the need for one. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

rw wrote Actually, I was addressing your original statement which was that you do not see the point of wearing a vest.  Actually,  I think you knew in advance why most people have backup floatation devices, but you wanted to make your fatalistic point about snake eyes. I didn’t mean to imply that someone who wears a life vest or a "backup floatation device" is stupid. I’m sorry if it came across that way. It’s just that in my personal experience I haven’t felt the need for one.

Er, well, I didn’t mean to imply that you meant to imply that… Actually I thought your subtext was more along the lines of …the less you worry about unlikely things, the more you enjoy whatever it is you’re doing … or something like that. Which happens to be a sentiment I agree with … still, we all have our own comfort level. FiddleAway

Response:

You’re missing something. A float tube in many states is considered a boat. And CG regulations require you to have a personal flotation device handy on the boat. When float tubes go bad, they often dont’ just leak a little, they deflate quickly. Every year it seems, at least one person dies because his float tube deflates and he/she panics and gets stuck getting out of it or can not swim. Or back home in the southeast, float tubes are a favorite way to fish the tailwaters, and it is not difficult to get careless and upended on moving waters, especially during unscheduled releases.. As long as you’re not stuck under a rock or a log, the floatation device will at least bring you back to the surface. Wayne

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see the point of wearing a life vest in a float tube. A float tube by definition floats, doesn’t it? If you fall out, can’t you just hang on to it? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Isn’t the backrest in your tube inflateable? Isn’t it in all of them? If so, then there is a floatation device right there. Ok, so it’s not CG approved, BFD. Darin

Response:

rw  wrote Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see the point of wearing a life vest in a float tube. A float tube by definition floats, doesn’t it? If you fall out, can’t you just hang on to it? I think it’s pretty clear that if you only have one floatation device, in this case, your tube, and it fails… you’re sunk.

I can swim. In fact, I can swim pretty well. If I couldn’t swim I probably wouldn’t use a float tube. Life in a series of tradeoffs. I think my chance of a catastrophic float-tube failure, leaving me somewhere from which I couldn’t swim to shore, is pretty remote. That chance doesn’t (in my opinion) merit me using a life vest. I’ll roll those dice, and if they come up snake eyes so be it. Maybe if I were float tubing in the middle of the Great Slave Lake I’d feel differently. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Maine now requires that you carry, not necessarily wear, a USCG approved floatation device when fishing from a tube as they do with any type of boat and/or personal watercraft. I’ve taken to dragging one of those cheapie orange wall mart vests behind my tube since wearing it would be a pain in the ass. I’ve looked at the inflatable SOS-penders and the like and will probably one day get one since I’m not the swimteam type anymore Flyfish

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see the point of wearing a life vest in a float tube. A float tube by definition floats, doesn’t it? If you fall out, can’t you just hang on to it? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Not necessarily r.w.  Cold water temperatures lower the body tempertures which tends to make the blood want to congeal which could result in a heart attack.  One should always have a back up floatation device and it is also a good idea to take asprin the night before to help thin the blood.  Asprin for older folks, each day is a good idea anyhow, if your doctor okays it for you. Float tube do go flat in the middle of a lake for no good reason at all.  We should remember that tire tubes get punctured or spring leaks.  Most systems are two chambered R.W. and all you need is one side to go flat on you and you’re leaning sideways and over you go. Often, in float tubes of various models, the user may fall into the water or need to get out of the floatation tube for various reasons.  The worst thing anyone can do once in the water is to hold onto the fly rod.  Unless someone is close enough to let them reach your butt section to drag you out or towards them, let the damned thing go.  Fly rods are expendable but you’re not. Anyhow r.w. I bought a couple of those minature, under the vest life-vests and I don’t go wading in water over my head without one on.  I also don’t go tubing or floating anywhere without wearing one.  So the smart option is to always make a back up floatation device part of your main system.  Be a ground hog, have a back door escape route  planned or ready in case you may need it. Trying to swim with fly fishing thermo clothing, waders, flippers, vests, heavy coats, etc. on is not the same as trying to swim in a warm pool with just trunks on. (Or skinny dipping)  Another factor is does the tuber smoke?  Frailing around in ice cold lake water and worse yet, spring fed ponds with little or no good lung power doesn’t assure enough energy to reach shore.  I know of one gentleman who was paddled himself right into a sharp stick that was just an inch under the water.  Put a hole the size of a baseball into his tube and he sunk in seconds!  If I wasn’t there, he would have drowned. Get one of those little CO2 life vests r.w.  It’s wonderful life insurance. George Gehrke – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see the point of wearing a life vest in a float tube. A float tube by definition floats, doesn’t it? If you fall out, can’t you just hang on to it? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

  george.vcf

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Response:

Last I heard, here in Washington a float tube was considered a swim toy, therefore no PFD required. Darin

Response:

If you are in the deschutes in your pontoon boat you have to have a PFD,  a trip permit and a container for waste ( that more that just candy bar wrappers ).  I have heard from some people that it applies to float tubes also but have not had a chance to talk to the ODFG yet. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I never wear a life vest when I am in my float tube

Response:

Oh boy BJC.  If ever there was a river to have a Personal Floatation Device, I would think the Deschutes just about rates right up there.  The least someone should do is put a small bottle of Gehrke’s Fly Floatation Device in their vest.  At the last second, they can smear it on their face giving them a chance for a couple of last breaths and casts?  By the way?  Do you need a free hat B.C.? ;  } – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you are in the deschutes in your pontoon boat you have to have a PFD,  a trip permit and a container for waste ( that more that just candy bar wrappers ).  I have heard from some people that it applies to float tubes also but have not had a chance to talk to the ODFG yet. I never wear a life vest when I am in my float tube

  george.vcf

1K Download

Response:

I wouldn;t use a tube without a life vest system of some sort. I use a floater vest, made by mustang. It is inflatable, fits just like a fishing vest, is waterproof, and has a CO2 cartridge for inflation. Also has a mouth tube. Catsing is no problem, even when I weighed 250 lbs. Tim Lysyk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I never wear a life vest when I am in my float tube.  The reason, of course, is that you can’t cast with a life vest on over my 225 pounds of body.  I saw an article that discussed flooding your waders to see what happens.  At least with neoprene, you float and in fact it is hard to keep your feet down, even when it is completely filled with water.  Since I use neoprene, exclusively, in my float tube that was an encouraging article.  However, there are the fish & game folks out, very rarely, but sometimes and I don’t want a ticket and I don’t want to wear a life vest.  I looked at the inflatable suspenders thingies ($75 a pair and coast guard approved), and they are a bother to cast around also (I tried them on at the fly shop, stepped outside with one of their rods and was not pleased, especially while I was sitting).  My float tube, The Woodriver Gliderider, comes with a floatation cushion and it puts me too high up in the seat of my tube and I also lose some of the pinch effect of the pontoons that hold me in (besides the law is that I have to be ‘wearing’ the floatation device.  I feel safe in my neoprenes; even if  I have to swim in them (the article goes on to say that it was not much of a challenge to swim in waders, a little awkward, but not much).  Also, my float tube has separate chambers for safety and I think that is good as well.  I realize that there is an available safety inflatable cushion that you can put in a pocket, but the current law requires the angler to be WEARING the floatation device. What the hell do you guys, who use float tubes, do? Padishar Creel – Don’t mind the whistle part of the law, makes good sense…

Response:

I know that you did not like them, but I use the SOSpenders.  I weigh a little more than you so it can be done.  I find that in either the pontoon or tube I can cast while wearing them.  As I’m a lousy swimmer, I sometimes wear them if I fish alone on the Deschutes.  In Oregon, I think the law is to have one available in a floating device, but not specifically to be wearing it.  That allows those hip pack inflatables to be used if they are Coast Guard approved. On swimming, here is a link on swimming in waders.  It also shows the application of a hip pack inflatable. http://www.westernflyfisher.com/index.asp?i=0101p25v5&t=1 ra kane at gte dot net "BassCreel" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I never wear a life vest when I am in my float tube.  The reason, of course, is that you can’t cast with a life vest on over my 225 pounds of body.  I saw an article that discussed flooding your waders to see what happens.  At least with neoprene, you float and in fact it is hard to keep your feet down, even when it is completely filled with water.  Since I use neoprene, exclusively, in my float tube that was an encouraging article.  However, there are the fish & game folks out, very rarely, but sometimes and I don’t want a ticket and I don’t want to wear a life vest.  I looked at the inflatable suspenders thingies ($75 a pair and coast guard approved), and they are a bother to cast around also (I tried them on at the fly shop, stepped outside with one of their rods and was not pleased, especially while I was sitting).  My float tube, The Woodriver Gliderider, comes with a floatation cushion and it puts me too high up in the seat of my tube and I also lose some of the pinch effect of the pontoons that hold me in (besides the law is that I have to be ‘wearing’ the floatation device.  I feel safe in my neoprenes; even if  I have to swim in them (the article goes on to say that it was not much of a challenge to swim in waders, a little awkward, but not much).  Also, my float tube has separate chambers for safety and I think that is good as well.  I realize that there is an available safety inflatable cushion that you can put in a pocket, but the current law requires the angler to be WEARING the floatation device. What the hell do you guys, who use float tubes, do? Padishar Creel – Don’t mind the whistle part of the law, makes good sense…

Response:

I never wear a life vest when I am in my float tube.  The reason, of course, is that you can’t cast with a life vest on over my 225 pounds of body.  I saw an article that discussed flooding your waders to see what happens.  At least with neoprene, you float and in fact it is hard to keep your feet down, even when it is completely filled with water.  Since I use neoprene, exclusively, in my float tube that was an encouraging article.  However, there are the fish & game folks out, very rarely, but sometimes and I don’t want a ticket and I don’t want to wear a life vest.  I looked at the inflatable suspenders thingies ($75 a pair and coast guard approved), and they are a bother to cast around also (I tried them on at the fly shop, stepped outside with one of their rods and was not pleased, especially while I was sitting).  My float tube, The Woodriver Gliderider, comes with a floatation cushion and it puts me too high up in the seat of my tube and I also lose some of the pinch effect of the pontoons that hold me in (besides the law is that I have to be ‘wearing’ the floatation device.  I feel safe in my neoprenes; even if  I have to swim in them (the article goes on to say that it was not much of a challenge to swim in waders, a little awkward, but not much).  Also, my float tube has separate chambers for safety and I think that is good as well.  I realize that there is an available safety inflatable cushion that you can put in a pocket, but the current law requires the angler to be WEARING the floatation device. What the hell do you guys, who use float tubes, do? Padishar Creel – Don’t mind the whistle part of the law, makes good sense…

Response:

Question:

Hey Louie, How about a Labrador Clave in 2003?

I’ve been dreaming of going to Labrador for years now, and I have made unfirm plans to do it in 2002 or 2003 – need that long to save up the $3000 for a week. My goal was to fish for Arctic Char, the hell with the brook trout. but a clave? hmmm…. Flyfish

Response:

I’ve been dreaming of going to Labrador for years now, …

Me too, but it’ll be a cold day in hell before I spend one, red US penny (that’s $49.95 Canadian) in a province that requires non-residents to have a guide. I don’t mind hiring a guide for a day or two or paying a rather substantial amount for a fishing license, but I’ll be damned if I’ll travel to fish somewhere where I can’t wet a line by myself. My goal was to fish for Arctic Char, the hell with the brook trout.

I suppose that’s because you live in Maine, but for me a 6 lb brookie would be a trophy of a lifetime. — Ken Fortenberry

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Doesn’t  NFLD. require guides only for designated salmon waters, and not trout?? Tim Lysyk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been dreaming of going to Labrador for years now, … Me too, but it’ll be a cold day in hell before I spend one, red US penny (that’s $49.95 Canadian) in a province that requires non-residents to have a guide. I don’t mind hiring a guide for a day or two or paying a rather substantial amount for a fishing license, but I’ll be damned if I’ll travel to fish somewhere where I can’t wet a line by myself. My goal was to fish for Arctic Char, the hell with the brook trout. I suppose that’s because you live in Maine, but for me a 6 lb brookie would be a trophy of a lifetime. — Ken Fortenberry

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Doesn’t  NFLD. require guides only for designated salmon waters, and not trout??

That sounds like New Brunswick. Newfoundland/Labrador requires guides for non-residents all the time and everywhere except right next to the highway on the Churchill River if I’m not mistaken. — Ken Fortenberry

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Guys;   If Ken F. doesn’t like the "guide" idea–and I certainly agree–how about going to northern Quebec?. Same general area–just across the border–and Quebec doesn’t require "guides". I’m going to fish the Caniapisceau this summer–without guides. I’ve fished in Newfoundland with "guides"–and if you’ve ever flyfished there–you KNOW why I’ve put the word "guides" in quotes. The "guides" are simply "babysitters" so the sport won’t get lost. They do absolutely nothing that the word guide means to us. This is –to put it rather bluntly–a way to get foreigners to pay welfare for those "guides".    Dave M

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Doesn’t  NFLD. require guides only for designated salmon waters, and not trout??

Here’s the (somewhat hard to find) URL, Tim; http://www.gov.nf.ca/forest/wildlife/licences/information.htm#Fishing To hell with the Newfies, I’ll never fish Labrador till these laws are changed, even at the risk of cutting my nose off to spite my face. — Ken Fortenberry

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Talk about confusing regulations. I remembered something about being able to fish without a guide, but had forgotten about the part that limited you to within 800 m of a provincial highway. A number of years ago my wife and I had a pair of free airplane tickets. We comnsidered going to Nfld. to fish, but got turned off by the regulations. We went to Victoria instead. Tim Lysyk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Doesn’t  NFLD. require guides only for designated salmon waters, and not trout?? Here’s the (somewhat hard to find) URL, Tim; http://www.gov.nf.ca/forest/wildlife/licences/information.htm#Fishing To hell with the Newfies, I’ll never fish Labrador till these laws are changed, even at the risk of cutting my nose off to spite my face. — Ken Fortenberry

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Tim Lysyk: Doesn’t  NFLD. require guides only for designated salmon waters, and not trout??

Labrador (Canada?) requires 1 guide for every two people above a certain lattitude.  Having fished in Labrador for the past five years, I can understand why they would have that rule.  I sure as hell would not be on the Atikonak River without a guide, even though I know the river well.  You can fish in Labrador without a guide as long as you stay within a certain distance (a mile?) of a road.  Things change very quickly — water level, temperature, rain to snow.  In the five years I have been going to Labrador, I know of 6 or 7 deaths — folks that got into trouble when they were alone.   I would be willing to set up something, a mini clave if ya wanna call it that. It would have to be for only 8 people, and would cost about $2700 for a week, plus air fare. Most lodges/outfitters only have room and facilities for 8 rods.  I would stay away from eastern Labrador, areas near Happy Valley, and concentrate on places in the north, central, or northeast.  There are a number of lodges/outfitters in these areas, and fishing is wonderful, be it for brookies, arctic char (limited water), pike or lake trout. Land locked salmon are also available later in the season (late Aug-Sept), or very early in the season (June).   Air fare from Boston is about $600. But, you can drive to Lab City/Wabush (western Labrador) in two days from Boston.  You would take a float plane (Otter or Beaver) to fly from Wabush to the lodge.  That flight is usually included in the price of your stay. Dave

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dnsmartel writes: If Ken F. doesn’t like the "guide" idea–and I certainly agree–how about going to northern Quebec?. Same general area–just across the border–and Quebec doesn’t require "guides". I’m going to fish the Caniapisceau this summer–without guides. I’ve fished in Newfoundland with "guides"–and if you’ve ever flyfished there–you KNOW why I’ve put the word "guides" in quotes. The "guides" are simply "babysitters" so the sport won’t get lost. They do absolutely nothing that the word guide means to us. This is –to put it rather bluntly–a way to get foreigners to pay welfare for those "guides".   Dave M

Not true of the Labrador guides I have used.  They are good boatsmen, outdoorsmen, and fishermen.  The difference between a good guide in Labrador and a bad one is the number of fish you catch.  Also, a good one will keep you out of trouble — one did just that with my grandson two years ago.  The water I fished was treacherous and even though I know that river very well (been going there for five years), I would not want to do it without a guide.   I believe you can fish in Canada below a certain lattitude without a guide. Friends of mine have done that and in the long run, they spent as much for food, gas, and air fare getting to their digs as I did going to a lodge with experienced guides.  And, I caught more and bigger fish.  Plus someone cooked for me, I had electricity, and indoor plumbing.  <g   Dave

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dnsmartel writes: … This is –to put it rather bluntly–a way to get foreigners to pay welfare for those "guides". Not true of the Labrador guides I have used. …  Also, a good one will keep you out of trouble — one did just that with my grandson two years ago.  The water I fished was treacherous and even though I know that river very well (been going there for five years), I would not want to do it without a guide. …

Bah. Dave M is right Louie. The Newfoundland/Labrador non-resident guide laws are not on the books to protect decrepit geezers and young teenagers. They are on the books to inject out-of-province dollars into a moribund economy. I don’t mind the bucks, I’d gladly pay whatever the province wants to charge for the opportunity to fish, but I really resent having to have a guide. — Ken Fortenberry

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I suppose that’s because you live in Maine, but for me a 6 lb brookie would be a trophy of a lifetime.

For me it would too. That said, as I understand it the Arctic Char is like a brook trout on steriods, kind of like the difference between a rainbow and a steelhead. I had a line on a set of camps that specialized in sea run char up there someplace, I’ll have to see if the guy comes back to the Maine Sportman’s show later this month as that was my intended trip Flyfish

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It would have to be for only 8 people, and would cost about $2700 for a week, plus air fare. Air fare from Boston is about $600.

That’s probably a couple of years fishing expenses for me. Willi

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Ken Fortenberry writes: Bah. Dave M is right Louie. The Newfoundland/Labrador non-resident guide laws are not on the books to protect decrepit geezers and young teenagers. They are on the books to inject out-of-province dollars into a moribund economy. I don’t mind the bucks, I’d gladly pay whatever the province wants to charge for the opportunity to fish, but I really resent having to have a guide. —

Oh, without a doubt it is to put dollars into the provincial cash register. Labrador is a very poor province.  But, even if it was legal to fish *without* a guide, I would still hire one.  So, now I’m a decrepit old geezer?  I love your liberal intolerance.   BTW, all the folks I know that died were young, healthy, fit, know-it-all fishermen.   Dave

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… So, now I’m a decrepit old geezer?  …

Now ? What do you mean "now" ? You’ve been a decrepit geezer since the Johnson administration. <pregnant pause The ANDREW Johnson administration ! <rimshot Luv ya, Louie — Ken Fortenberry

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BTW, all the folks I know that died were young, healthy, fit, know-it-all fishermen.

Dammit Louie!  I haven’t said anything in this thread so why are you bringing me into it?!?!?  I know you weren’t using the above to describe Ken, he hasn’t been young since the Nixon administration — Warren Findley

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I hate to reiterate, but once again I think this is a key word issue.  The key word in Dave’s post was "know-it-all".  That compound word or phase, if you please, certainly wouldn’t fit in your case warren, at least not in a sarcastic sense.  Just MMHO. Opie  –Planning for the Past–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, all the folks I know that died were young, healthy, fit, know-it-all fishermen. Dammit Louie!  I haven’t said anything in this thread so why are you bringing me into it?!?!?  I know you weren’t using the above to describe Ken, he hasn’t been young since the Nixon administration — Warren Findley

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Ken Fortenberry writes: The ANDREW Johnson administration ! <rimshot Luv ya, Louie — Ken Fortenberry

I knew Andy, and you, sir, are not Andy. On a more serious note:  Each year when I returned to the Atikonak, I would hear stories about who got killed and how.  They were all Canadians, usually from Labrador.  They didn’t know  where they were going or what they were doing, and it cost them their lives.  You don’t have to be in your 60s with a couple of gimpy legs and no feeling in your feet to need a guide.  I understand your wanting to get away from it all and be on your own.  That’s fine in Maine, Michigan and Montana, but in Labrador it could get you killed.  Quickly. OG

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  I understand your wanting to get away from it all and be on your own.  That’s fine in Maine, Michigan and Montana, but in Labrador it could get you killed.  Quickly. OG

The same goes for Lenoir, NC and most other major cities. Opie  –Planning for the Past–

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I hate to reiterate, but once again I think this is a key word issue.  The key word in Dave’s post was "know-it-all".  That compound word or phase, if you please, certainly wouldn’t fit in your case warren, at least not in a sarcastic sense.  Just MMHO.

Well, Dave sure as hell wasn’t talking about Ken because he said "young".  Ken isn’t so as old as to be farting dust yet, but he isn’t a spring chicken either Hey Ken, preemptive SPLORK! <g — Warren Findley

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  Dave;   Are you referring to Umiakovic Char Camp? That’s run by Harvey Calden–he also runs Tim Pond Camps in Eustis. I’ve seen the video’s and brochures–the fishing is suppossed to be unbelieveable for big sea-run char–but it’s a very pricey camp. Of course the price of a gal. of gas was over $17 dollars/gallon–two years ago before the prices went out of sight. I have no idea what aviation fuel costs that far up north now–but it’s got to be considerably more than $17 dollars/gallon.    Dave M

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On a more serious note:  Each year when I returned to the Atikonak, I would hear stories about who got killed and how.  They were all Canadians, usually from Labrador.  They didn’t know  where they were going or what they were doing, and it cost them their lives.  You don’t have to be in your 60s with a couple of gimpy legs and no feeling in your feet to need a guide.  I understand your wanting to get away from it all and be on your own.  That’s fine in Maine, Michigan and Montana, but in Labrador it could get you killed.  Quickly. OG

Dave speaks the truth.  I doubt there’s any part of the lower 48 that resembles Canada’s North for true remoteness.  Just like in a remote area of the lower 48, fly over the lower half of Northern Ontario and you’ll see at least some signs of human presence, rail lines, roads, hydro towers, cottages, harbours, floatplane bases, microwave relays, airstrips, logging roads, fire towers,  trails, etc.  I have no fear of getting lost as a straight walk in any direction will have me bumping into something man-made sooner or later.  But Canada’s real north, NWT, Nunavut, Labrador, Yukon, – once you’re away from the cities and towns there’s absolutely nothing plus the landscape is incredibly rugged and unforgiving.  I went for a walk out from the camp in NWT and I realized as a trudged north that there was probably nothing man-made between me and the Arctic ocean, 130 miles away. Even just 15 minutes out of camp, one slip and I was done for – nobody would ever find me.  And don’t rely on our armed forces for rescue either – the crews are willing but the equipment is virtually non-existant. If you’re going to the real North – hire a guide.  If you don’t, your beneficiaries will thank you. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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… If you’re going to the real North – hire a guide.  If you don’t, your beneficiaries will thank you.

There’s nothing inherently dangerous about traveling the "real North" other than relying on Her Royal Majesties Cartographers. An experienced backcountry outdoorsman would have no problem whatsoever traveling, camping and fishing in Labrador. — Ken Fortenberry

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dang warren, they raised you in montana.  what do you want??? hee hee hee fishworship wayne

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This evening the venerable old pirate and myself went to a local TU chapter fund raiser. We were supposed to be joined by another but he was too tired. We got to see A.K. Best talk about Labrador Brookies and char. Holy shit are there some big fish up there. There was shot after shot of big brookies decked out in some pretty spectacular colours. Then we saw some pretty awsome char at the end. One thing I did notice is all the rods in the pictures were cane. Not a single graphite in any of the photos. Then there was the raffle after the show. Unfortunatly neither one of us won the two night stay for two people at Lakewood Camps on the Rapid River  but we both came out ahead for the night. Hey Louie, How about a Labrador Clave in 2003? Paul

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Hey Louie, How about a Labrador Clave in 2003?

Funny you should mention that, I have been telling my parents that is what I want for a graduation gift <g  Of course, they will probably buy a shit load of toys for my daughter instead. . . . — Warren Findley

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Question:

I’m not always sour. Just spewing up some vomit. It will pass.

I know you are not souring, and it is good to spew.  I can’t believe what you have been through. (((((Hugs)))))) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Just a big ol’ kidney stone, yeah, you’ll be rid of it. OK. I had a big dry. Geez! Thought I was done with that stuff. I spent a lot of energy being *close* to my kids – moved right within short mortar range of where their mom is living. With all that, I can not even be sure I am doing the right thing – the "confict is bad" crowd would say that since the kids’ mom and I hate each other, I should pack up my troubles, move a thousand miles away and just send a check every week. Maybe they are right, but it is not the path I have chosen, and the path I have chosen is hard, sucks and is exhausting. And I am not even sure if it is the right thing. I understand. At the time of the moving decision, I thought that the only way she could come down from her insanity was to distance myself. I under-estimated insanity. You make your choices, live with them, and live with yourself. What else are you going to do? Just know what your choices are. Make those choices informed, and get on with your life. Else you’ll end up a tired old, shrivelled up cynical fart like me. pffffoooooot!!!! Thoughts with you Roy. Give your better half a big hug, and fall asleep in each others’ arms tonight. Have you ever noticed that two people in bed only need 3 arms? Indeed, one arm is always in the way.

Here are two more arms to crowd the situation. There is only so much you can do, and the kids’ mom is the kids’ mom. She is their problem, unfortunately. They’ll survive. I can’t protect them from the world. Much as I want to. The younger one will be taught to hate me. See responses eslewhere in this thread as to why. Peace, brother. Best – Fido (Soy un perro, pero ella es una hembra!) Did you ever try "tacos de macho"?

I

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 The younger one will, as usual, not want to talk to me. Been there, done that. I just kept calling at the right time, and they will talk if they want to. Later my oldest daughter would surprise me by calling on her own. You are there with them, Roy, believe it.

Yep. As far as Doc’s statements, not all are bitches, The sterile ones can be trusted, if they have a note from their doc. Otherwise, trust your own doc to take care of you. Very cynical. Ouchies. But realistic, I suppose.

Getting such things in writing strikes me as properly responsible. I am sad that you have one in your life. Actually, I have another in my life who is quite wonderful.  Whatcha kevtchin’ about, then?  Hey, a lot of folks don’t even have *that*.

Yeah, but it don’t fix the hole in the heart, does it ? Don’t go sour, have faith. I’m not always sour. Just spewing up some vomit. It will pass. Just a big ol’ kidney stone, yeah, you’ll be rid of it.

Indeed. I spent a lot of energy being *close* to my kids – moved right within short mortar range of where their mom is living. With all that, I can not even be sure I am doing the right thing – the "confict is bad" crowd would say that since the kids’ mom and I hate each other, I should pack up my troubles, move a thousand miles away and just send a check every week. Maybe they are right, but it is not the path I have chosen, and the path I have chosen is hard, sucks and is exhausting. And I am not even sure if it is the right thing.

Well, I am. It is. You are the *father* of the kids. That is important, no matter what the granola crowd bleats. It’s tough. But, you are there for your kids, and they do see that. They will understand what that means. You make your choices, live with them, and live with yourself. What else are you going to do? Just know what your choices are. Make those choices informed, and get on with your life. Else you’ll end up a tired old, shrivelled up cynical fart like me.

<g Thoughts with you Roy. Give your better half a big hug, and fall asleep in each others’ arms tonight. There is only so much you can do, and the kids’ mom is the kids’ mom. She is their problem, unfortunately.

Truth. Peace, brother. Best – Fido (Soy un perro, pero ella es una hembra!) Roy

Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

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Let’s see. I’m sure I left something out. …. Starting Spring Break, the ex starting coaching the girl to say that I am poking her ass while wiping her bottom. I pointed out that I do not handle potty. So, by summer she wants to know why my gf is poking the daughter’s ass. Except that the girl wipes herself.

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so, yeah, Dr Web can rant and rave all he friggin wants. I, for one, will not criticize him. Sometimes there is just more than a grain of truth in the rantings of the mad.

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Hi Roy, so, when some woman posts and say she want ex s2bx to move. Or she plans to leave and take the kids, or, when the guy posts and says he has been asked to leave, I know exactly what is going on. Child abuse, kidnapping, extortion. "I am responsible for my own happiness." – sheesh! new age pop crap!

Not all is fair, and even in general when one speaks of being responsible for your own happiness etc. , I don’t believe they don’t mean that there aren’t very negative forces that are in play. As far as a kind word….my heart is with you and hope that you can be comfortable and proud about yourself and your attempts to be a part of your childrens life. As far as Doc’s statements, not all are bitches, I am sad that you have one in your life.  Don’t go sour, have faith. Glos

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As far as a kind word….my heart is with you and hope that you can be comfortable and proud about yourself and your attempts to be a part of your childrens life.

I appreciate the kind words. Guess it’s time to make my weekly call to the kids. The younger one will, as usual, not wantto talk to me. As far as Doc’s statements, not all are bitches,

The sterile ones can be trusted, if they have a note from their doc. Otherwise, trust your own doc to take care of you. I am sad that you have one in your life.

Actually, I have another in my life who is quite wonderful. Don’t go sour, have faith.

I’m not always sour. Just spewing up some vomit. It will pass. Glos

Roy

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Anytime Roy, you know that!!  ((Hugs)) Daisy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – for me to ask for a kind word. Roy

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for me to ask for a kind word.

You and your kids don’t deserve what she’s doing to you, and if you’d just open up and tell us the details, like her name, city, and address, we’d send out a posse to kick her witchy little ass. —– Kathryn Litherland                 | People make their own history               Latin American Studies Program     | but they do not make it under       University of Illinois, Chicago    | circumstances of their own choosing                                    |      –Karl Marx, _The 18th Brumaire_

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for me to ask for a kind word. Roy

XOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXO I am sorry she is being a bitch about you seeing the kids.  I could make a voodoo doll with her name on it? Loev, Poopie Pants PS I hope there is a Karma Fairy and your ex gets her just reward

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 The younger one will, as usual, not want to talk to me.

Been there, done that. I just kept calling at the right time, and they will talk if they want to. Later my oldest daughter would surprise me by calling on her own. You are there with them, Roy, believe it. As far as Doc’s statements, not all are bitches, The sterile ones can be trusted, if they have a note from their doc. Otherwise, trust your own doc to take care of you.

Very cynical. Ouchies. But realistic, I suppose. I am sad that you have one in your life. Actually, I have another in my life who is quite wonderful.

 Whatcha kevtchin’ about, then?  Hey, a lot of folks don’t even have *that*. Don’t go sour, have faith. I’m not always sour. Just spewing up some vomit. It will pass.

Just a big ol’ kidney stone, yeah, you’ll be rid of it. I spent a lot of energy being *close* to my kids – moved right within short mortar range of where their mom is living. With all that, I can not even be sure I am doing the right thing – the "confict is bad" crowd would say that since the kids’ mom and I hate each other, I should pack up my troubles, move a thousand miles away and just send a check every week. Maybe they are right, but it is not the path I have chosen, and the path I have chosen is hard, sucks and is exhausting. And I am not even sure if it is the right thing. You make your choices, live with them, and live with yourself. What else are you going to do? Just know what your choices are. Make those choices informed, and get on with your life. Else you’ll end up a tired old, shrivelled up cynical fart like me. Thoughts with you Roy. Give your better half a big hug, and fall asleep in each others’ arms tonight. There is only so much you can do, and the kids’ mom is the kids’ mom. She is their problem, unfortunately. Peace, brother. Best – Fido (Soy un perro, pero ella es una hembra!) Roy

Before you buy.

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"may 99 – now-ex threatens to kill kids." ummm… Roy…does the court know about this??? Donna Before you buy.

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I could make a voodoo doll with her name on it?

No need, Poopster. http://www.virtual-design.com/cgi-bin/Voodoo.pl Have fun! Belle

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"may 99 – now-ex threatens to kill kids." ummm… Roy…does the court know about this???

Fucking court. Someone ought to mail a copy of Roy’s post to the Supreme Court Justice in Georgia or where ever that case was heard. Like they’ll do anything about it, anyway, Scumbags. What outrage I feel. Send a copy to the nitwits at the National Conference of Family Court Justices, too, those morons. No effing recourse when your family is torn apart by these weenies. They could fix it if they wanted to, *but they don’t*. Fuck ‘em. I’m going to bed. Roy, lighten up. I’ll be mad for both of us.   Donna Before you buy.

Before you buy.

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"may 99 – now-ex threatens to kill kids." ummm… Roy…does the court know about this??? Donna

Yes. Didn’t matter. I moved out – four blocks away. I smoked pot. I went and got a girlfriend. The court did not give me time to say "I was in the home all day, every day. I handled 1st grade home school." Your call. What would judge Judy do?

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I’m not always sour. Just spewing up some vomit. It will pass. Just a big ol’ kidney stone, yeah, you’ll be rid of it.

OK. I had a big dry. Geez! Thought I was done with that stuff. I spent a lot of energy being *close* to my kids – moved right within short mortar range of where their mom is living. With all that, I can not even be sure I am doing the right thing – the "confict is bad" crowd would say that since the kids’ mom and I hate each other, I should pack up my troubles, move a thousand miles away and just send a check every week. Maybe they are right, but it is not the path I have chosen, and the path I have chosen is hard, sucks and is exhausting. And I am not even sure if it is the right thing.

I understand. At the time of the moving decision, I thought that the only way she could come down from her insanity was to distance myself. I under-estimated insanity. You make your choices, live with them, and live with yourself. What else are you going to do? Just know what your choices are. Make those choices informed, and get on with your life. Else you’ll end up a tired old, shrivelled up cynical fart like me.

pffffoooooot!!!! Thoughts with you Roy. Give your better half a big hug, and fall asleep in each others’ arms tonight.

Have you ever noticed that two people in bed only need 3 arms? Indeed, one arm is always in the way. There is only so much you can do, and the kids’ mom is the kids’ mom. She is their problem, unfortunately.

They’ll survive. I can’t protect them from the world. Much as I want to. The younger one will be taught to hate me. See responses eslewhere in this thread as to why. Peace, brother. Best – Fido (Soy un perro, pero ella es una hembra!)

Did you ever try "tacos de macho"?

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Roy, you’re a helluva guy. And I like you, too.

Yeah. I know. My step-dad even told me so just before he died. My gf from 27 years ago remembered me and gave up one hell of a lot because she also remembered that I am a nice guy. I keep forgetting.

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for me to ask for a kind word. You and your kids don’t deserve what she’s doing to you, and if you’d just open up and tell us the details, like her name, city, and address, we’d send out a posse to kick her witchy little ass.

Tempting. I do believe that abusive people need to have their behavior "outed". Just can’t bring myself to send her a letter outlining her behavior in this matter – with cc to every family member.

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XOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXO I am sorry she is being a bitch about you seeing the kids.  I could make a voodoo doll with her name on it?

The current fashion is "cultural competence". So, I was thinking about something from the dungeons of Spain, circa 1520. PS I hope there is a Karma Fairy and your ex gets her just reward

Nope. No magical retribution. Well, maybe … I do know that she is angry because she lost a truly marvelous f**k and she burns every nite for that. I can see how she looks me over in our brief child-exchange encounters.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – for me to ask for a kind word. What’s troubling you ? Maybe we can help. Everyone can use a kind word. So, talk, and we’ll listen. Is that a start ? Roy Andre 2 kids now ages 4 and 11 may 98 – moved to apt 4 blocks away. may-dec – almost no contact with kids – a couple of movies with the older kid, some one-on-one soccer at the high school dec 98 – signed visitation agreement, property partition, and all other terms with now-ex xmas holidays 98 – now-ex wants to take the kids to see her parents. I say OK. She doesn’t go, but wipes out my visit time. Xmas eve 98 – now-ex tells kids I am coming over. Does not tell me. jan 99 – now-ex tears up all agreements. gets lawyer. jan-may 99 – regular visits established – ex comes up with something to interfere, so that there is no continuous 24 hour visit spring break 99 – now-ex pull same stunt as xmas holidays 98 may 99 – now-ex threatens to kill kids. memorial weekend 99 – The kid and I "break the rules" and go for a weekend of fishing at the coast. I inform the now-ex by phone. I hang up as she screams and cries. june 99 – court date. "At last .. some legal protection." Wrong! My first testimony was to ask for verification of 4 week summer visit. Judge reduces to 2 weeks. I say "but your honor …" Judge reduces to 5 days and only with older kid. End of hearing. july 99 – I move 3 states away. Take the older kid for 5 days. fly back for 3-day visits in sept and oct 99 Tgiving 99 – kids visit for 1 week. My best friend (illegal from Mexico) give me overnite place to stay and helps with pick-up and airport delivery. Later that day his wife is repeatedly called by now-ex and threatened with legal action. Xmas 99 – one week with kids. Xmas 99 – I begin asking for copies of immunization info. Mar 99 – administrative hearing to file final papers. My lawyer says my presence not needed. Now-ex appears – All rights to participate in decisions on education, medical, etc are cross out in the decree – probably because I smoked pot. Also, she can give me 30 days notice before visit and I have to be tested. Spring break 00 – one week with kids Summer 00 – after several requests to ex and school, still no immunization info. Ex demands to come here and keep kids 3 days/wk during summer visit. 8/1/00 Letter to ex. I will be in town sometime next month on business, but don’t know exact days. Can I visit for weekend without meeting 30 day notice requirements. Also, school does not get out until tues before Xmas. This reduces xmas visit to 6 days. Can they stay for entire holidays? 9/1/00 After no response, I call. She says not to tell kids that I asked to visit in the fall. Says they can stay longer at xmas but she keeps them 3-4 days/wk 9/5/00 f**k her. I make the airline reservations – no she does not come. So, andre, I’m tired. The woman needs one good royal f**king. Any guy here want to help me out?

Well, not in *that* way. I had quite enough of that with my ex, and I am aware that I got off ( relatively ) lightly, as we didn’t make any kids. I shudder when I think of having to be tied to that *itch for the next eighteen years plus, especially in the way that the courts screw fathers. Unfortunately, I have no good ideas as to what you can do. Aside from what I occasionally hear here about finding a father’s rights friendly lawyer, and doing all that one can with the help of such a lawyer to get back was was stolen. At what ages can they state that they might want to be more with you ? I do know that one is likely a decade from this. But, the other may be within a year to three. Does it help in any way that I state that her behavior is pure EVIL, both to you and to the kids ? Someone posted a good article about modern fatherhood here, in the last day or two. It was written by Cathy Young, whose book I own. God, this is surely a time when I wish that I had some power, some ability to affect matters in such a way that you and your kids could have the relationship that you are working so hard to make. No matter what, do take good and proper care of yourself, and do what you can do, in order to relieve some of the fatigue. Folks, try to tell me that a court would do that to a mom. It’s not equal out there, and some of you ladies might find that this is a good reason why some of your men won’t commit to a new relationship. What can you ladies do about that ? Organise, and lend the fathers the support that you got from all the men who marched to get women their rights. You owe them, and you owe the kids. Do it. Now. Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

Response:

for me to ask for a kind word.

Roy, you’re a helluva guy. And I like you, too. Best – Fido Roy

Before you buy.

Response:

so, when some woman posts and say she want ex s2bx to move. Or she plans to leave and take the kids, or, when the guy posts and says he has been asked to leave, I know exactly what is going on. Child abuse, kidnapping, extortion. "I am responsible for my own happiness." – sheesh! new age pop crap!

Response:

for me to ask for a kind word. Roy

Response:

for me to ask for a kind word. Roy

Brenda Before you buy.

Response:

for me to ask for a kind word.

What’s troubling you ? Maybe we can help. Everyone can use a kind word. So, talk, and we’ll listen. Is that a start ? Roy

Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

Response:

for me to ask for a kind word. What’s troubling you ? Maybe we can help. Everyone can use a kind word. So, talk, and we’ll listen. Is that a start ? Roy Andre

2 kids now ages 4 and 11 may 98 – moved to apt 4 blocks away. may-dec – almost no contact with kids – a couple of movies with the older kid, some one-on-one soccer at the high school dec 98 – signed visitation agreement, property partition, and all other terms with now-ex xmas holidays 98 – now-ex wants to take the kids to see her parents. I say OK. She doesn’t go, but wipes out my visit time. Xmas eve 98 – now-ex tells kids I am coming over. Does not tell me. jan 99 – now-ex tears up all agreements. gets lawyer. jan-may 99 – regular visits established – ex comes up with something to interfere, so that there is no continuous 24 hour visit spring break 99 – now-ex pull same stunt as xmas holidays 98 may 99 – now-ex threatens to kill kids. memorial weekend 99 – The kid and I "break the rules" and go for a weekend of fishing at the coast. I inform the now-ex by phone. I hang up as she screams and cries. june 99 – court date. "At last .. some legal protection." Wrong! My first testimony was to ask for verification of 4 week summer visit. Judge reduces to 2 weeks. I say "but your honor …" Judge reduces to 5 days and only with older kid. End of hearing. july 99 – I move 3 states away. Take the older kid for 5 days. fly back for 3-day visits in sept and oct 99 Tgiving 99 – kids visit for 1 week. My best friend (illegal from Mexico) give me overnite place to stay and helps with pick-up and airport delivery. Later that day his wife is repeatedly called by now-ex and threatened with legal action. Xmas 99 – one week with kids. Xmas 99 – I begin asking for copies of immunization info. Mar 99 – administrative hearing to file final papers. My lawyer says my presence not needed. Now-ex appears – All rights to participate in decisions on education, medical, etc are cross out in the decree – probably because I smoked pot. Also, she can give me 30 days notice before visit and I have to be tested. Spring break 00 – one week with kids Summer 00 – after several requests to ex and school, still no immunization info. Ex demands to come here and keep kids 3 days/wk during summer visit. 8/1/00 Letter to ex. I will be in town sometime next month on business, but don’t know exact days. Can I visit for weekend without meeting 30 day notice requirements. Also, school does not get out until tues before Xmas. This reduces xmas visit to 6 days. Can they stay for entire holidays? 9/1/00 After no response, I call. She says not to tell kids that I asked to visit in the fall. Says they can stay longer at xmas but she keeps them 3-4 days/wk 9/5/00 f**k her. I make the airline reservations – no she does not come. So, andre, I’m tired. The woman needs one good royal f**king. Any guy here want to help me out?

Response:

Question:

Opie writes: Ok, I concede redeye gravy an grits. Opie

Heeeehaaaaa.  A yankee teachin’ a pooh boy how to eat!  Heyyyahhh.  Georgia ice cream!!!!!!   Course, a good vodka to help it along is always welcome.  <g Dave LaCourse

Response:

Jeff,   Those southern guys put gravy on everything.

They just *told* you it was gravy<g. — Charlie…

Response:

Ernie Harrison writes: Jeff,   Those southern guys put gravy on everything. Ernie Hell, there are few things better than good old country ham, red eye gravy and grits (good grits — none of that instant stuff). Dave, whose marriage to two southern belles is obviously showing.

Huh?  I thought they only did that in Utah.  Hey Verrrrrnnnn!

Response:

Jeff, You obviously need a bit more Southern acculturation. Opie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you fellas can’t handle *Grits,* just leave them to us real southern folk. Being a northern guy, I didn’t understand the problem with grits.  Ya see, I thought they were Cream O Wheat, so I just put brown sugar and milk on em.  I always thought grits were fine until I heard about stuff like gravy and butter and salt on em!!! — Regards, Jeff Before you buy.

Response:

Jeff,    Those southern guys put gravy on everything. Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Being a northern guy, I didn’t understand the problem with grits.  Ya see, I thought they were Cream O Wheat, so I just put brown sugar and milk on em.  I always thought grits were fine until I heard about stuff like gravy and butter and salt on em!!! Jeff

Response:

Ernie Harrison writes: Jeff,   Those southern guys put gravy on everything. Ernie

Hell, there are few things better than good old country ham, red eye gravy and grits (good grits — none of that instant stuff). Dave, whose marriage to two southern belles is obviously showing.

Response:

Except *GRITS.* Opie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff,    Those southern guys put gravy on everything. Ernie Being a northern guy, I didn’t understand the problem with grits.  Ya see, I thought they were Cream O Wheat, so I just put brown sugar and milk on em.  I always thought grits were fine until I heard about stuff like gravy and butter and salt on em!!! Jeff

Response:

Ok, I concede redeye gravy an grits. Opie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ernie Harrison writes: Jeff,   Those southern guys put gravy on everything. Ernie Hell, there are few things better than good old country ham, red eye gravy and grits (good grits — none of that instant stuff). Dave, whose marriage to two southern belles is obviously showing.

Response:

If you fellas can’t handle *Grits,* just leave them to us real southern folk.

Being a northern guy, I didn’t understand the problem with grits.  Ya see, I thought they were Cream O Wheat, so I just put brown sugar and milk on em.  I always thought grits were fine until I heard about stuff like gravy and butter and salt on em!!! — Regards, Jeff Before you buy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I look forward to the Times on Wednesday morning, more so than any other morning of the week, because of the recipes in the Living Arts section. I was shocked, stunned and disgusted to find in today’s paper recipes for…I can barely bring myself to type it Ohmygawd. Grits … in the Times. Shoot me now, I’ve seen it all. Jeffie can have my Budweiser and Waldo my Django Rheinhart records. http://www.nytimes.com/library/dining/042600grits.html — Ken Fortenberry

The way you scoffed buscuits and gravy at Tootsie’s I’d always thought you to be a grits fan.  Thought you’d be pleased when the Times ran it. Don’t that beat all . . . Peter

Response:

If they called it polenta would you be so upset? It’s essentially the same thing. Peter G. Aitken

damn I thought grits was cream of wheat with sand in it…. Flyfish

Response:

If they called it polenta would you be so upset? It’s essentially the same thing. Peter G. Aitken damn I thought grits was cream of wheat with sand in it…. Flyfish

Nah – couldn’t be – cream of wheat and sand actually has FLAVOR!

Response:

Polenta is made from whole stone ground cornmeal. That would imply some flavor to be had. Grits are made from hominy. That’s what is left after soaking corn in a lye solution and removing the bran or kernel. The original "Better eating through chemistry!". I’m from down south and I never could get used them myself. MT

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If they called it polenta would you be so upset? It’s essentially the same thing. Peter G. Aitken

Response:

Buy a good set of gravel guards, keeps the grit out.

I got the neoprene ones with the velcro closures.  Real easy to put on and very effective for keeping grits out but they also make breathing somewhat problematic.

Response:

If you fellas can’t handle *Grits,* just leave them to us real southern folk.  Cream-O-Shit, some comparison! Opie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Buy a good set of gravel guards, keeps the grit out. I got the neoprene ones with the velcro closures.  Real easy to put on and very effective for keeping grits out but they also make breathing somewhat problematic.

Response:

If you fellas can’t handle *Grits,* just leave them to us real southern folk.  Cream-O-Shit, some comparison! Opie

you’re damn tootin! thank god i had me a plateful this morning, o/w i wouldn’t have been able to land that big ‘ole ‘bow from yer drift did you and jeffie (who despises grits, but loves marshmellows) get any more fish after i left? i caught a couple of small brookies twitchin’ the fly back downstream on the way out. waldo

Response:

damn I thought grits was cream of wheat with sand in it…. Flyfish

When I was stationed at Ft. Jackson SC back in the 60’s they would occasionally serve some white stuff for breakfast. If a northener asked what it was the cook would tell him cream of wheat and of course the reply to a southerner was grits. Half the mess hall would put milk & suger on it, the other half salt & pepper. Thank God I was cadre and didn’t have to eat anything I couldn’t identify.      Jim * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Walt, I can’t speak for Jeff, but my life has no meaning.  Does that answer your question? Opie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you fellas can’t handle *Grits,* just leave them to us real southern folk.  Cream-O-Shit, some comparison! Opie you’re damn tootin! thank god i had me a plateful this morning, o/w i wouldn’t have been able to land that big ‘ole ‘bow from yer drift did you and jeffie (who despises grits, but loves marshmellows) get any more fish after i left? i caught a couple of small brookies twitchin’ the fly back downstream on the way out. waldo

Response:

Buy a good set of gravel guards, keeps the grit out. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

Walt, I can’t speak for Jeff, but my life has no meaning.  Does that answer your question? Opie

yeah… it tells me ya got in the cooler waldo

Response:

I look forward to the Times on Wednesday morning, more so than any other morning of the week, because of the recipes in the Living Arts section. I was shocked, stunned and disgusted to find in today’s paper recipes for…I can barely bring myself to type it Ohmygawd. Grits … in the Times. Shoot me now, I’ve seen it all. Jeffie can have my Budweiser and Waldo my Django Rheinhart records. http://www.nytimes.com/library/dining/042600grits.html — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I was shocked, stunned and disgusted to find in today’s paper recipes for…I can barely bring myself to type it Ohmygawd. Grits … in the Times. Ken Fortenberry

GRITS!  Wonderful!  Why Ken; don’t you know grits are the closest thing you can have to nothing and still have something??!!  They are the base requirement to serving red-eye gravey! They are also not off-topic to fly fishing.  A good breakfast of grits fortifies the intrepid fly fisher-person for the day with an extra fast energy supply from the starches, sticks with you to aswage hunger, and passes along slowly enough to keep you from having to peel out of your waders around 10:30. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I look forward to the Times on Wednesday morning, more so than any other morning of the week, because of the recipes in the Living Arts section. I was shocked, stunned and disgusted to find in today’s paper recipes for…I can barely bring myself to type it Ohmygawd. Grits … in the Times. Shoot me now, I’ve seen it all. Jeffie can have my Budweiser and Waldo my Django Rheinhart records. http://www.nytimes.com/library/dining/042600grits.html — Ken Fortenberry

um…ken, i think you transposed…no way i’m takin the budweiser.  give it to waldo, he’ll drink anything.  but the records might work. jeff

Response:

If they called it polenta would you be so upset? It’s essentially the same thing. Peter G. Aitken

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I look forward to the Times on Wednesday morning, more so than any other morning of the week, because of the recipes in the Living Arts section. I was shocked, stunned and disgusted to find in today’s paper recipes for…I can barely bring myself to type it Ohmygawd. Grits … in the Times. Shoot me now, I’ve seen it all. Jeffie can have my Budweiser and Waldo my Django Rheinhart records. http://www.nytimes.com/library/dining/042600grits.html — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

If they called it polenta would you be so upset? It’s essentially the same thing.

Right, and a lump of coal and a diamond are essentially the same thing. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Question:

Does anyone have the number to Cabela’s Fly Fishing Catalog (the special one they make that has mostly fly-fishing stuff in it)? Thanks in Advance. -Robert | Robert Cid | Department of Applied Science | University of California, Davis | -!Andale Aggies!-

Response:

Does anyone have the number to Cabela’s Fly Fishing Catalog (the special one they make that has mostly fly-fishing stuff in it)? Thanks in Advance.

Robert, 1-800-237-4444 you have to specify that you want the fly fishing catalog. Steve

Response:

Does anyone have the number to Cabela’s Fly Fishing Catalog (the special one they make that has mostly fly-fishing stuff in it)?

The one I have (Fly Fishing 1998) says Catalog TX-1509 on the address label. — Charlie…

Response:

Question:

There are some world-class streams within a half hour of State College.  I particularly recommend the Little Juniata, Penn Creek, or Fishing Creek (Clinton Country).  I’d recommend getting a copy of Trout Streams of Pennsylvania by Dwight Landis.  It has detailed maps and fly recommendations.  If you can’t get it where you are, call Cold Spring Anglers in Carlisle, PA or Yellow Breeches Outfitters in Boiling Springs, PA. — Anti-spamming measure in use.  To reply, remove one "z" from email address.

Response:

Does anyone know where I can go FF near State College, PA?  I will be there in early October.  Is it too late to go FF? What flies should I have ready? THANKS!!! Mac

Response:

Does anyone know where I can go FF near State College, PA?  I will be there in early October.  Is it too late to go FF? What flies should I have ready? THANKS!!! Mac

Dear Mac; Right in State College is one of the best wild trout fisheries in all of the East: Spring Creek.  It runs from State College to Bellefonte and is C&R over (basically) it’s entire length due to Arochlor (PCB) contamination.  The Logan Branch is another good choice.  It comes into Spring closer to Bellefonte.  For the best up-to-date fishing conditions, contact Flyfisher’s Paradise, a flyshop located outside of State college, about 3 miles from the creek, if that.  I don’t have their #, but the Area Code is 814, so call Info. and get the #.   Flies: Sz 16-18 Sow bugs, Sz. 16-18 Pheasant Tails, and Midges, both surface and pupae would be your Ace-in-the-hole flies. Jason B.

Response:

Question:

Does anyone have infro. on fishing the Cumberland River below Wolfcreek Dam… Access, Flies to use and water coditions? Thanks Tom Becker Louisville,Ky

Response:

Does anyone have infro. on fishing the Cumberland River below Wolfcreek Dam… Access, Flies to use and water coditions? Thanks Tom Becker Louisville,Ky

Tom, check with the nice folks at the Lac Loon flyfishing shop. Don Mclean, the owner, can give you info, point you to guide services or take you himself. He also has a lot of good equipment and supplies, all flyfishing. Your neighbor, Bob

Response:

Question:

Does anyone know of a fishing expo in the NYC area. A friend of mine said there is one comming to boston. Just curious if it would make it to NYC, it would save me a road trip. Thanks, DAVE — Dave Blizard "Pork, the other white meat."

Response:

There is a Fly Fishing Only show the second satruday in March in White Plains, NY by the Theodore Fly Fishers.  It’s a really great show done with style.  Not too crowded as you would expect at the Suffern Show. Have fun!

Response:

Question:

A couple of years ago, I heard Gary Borger give directions for dyeing fly line.I wrote the information down, and now I can’t find it. I got a deal on some Wulff lines, but there almost white. If anyone has any information on dyeing lines, or know of a reference book ,any information would be appreciated.If anyone has dyed lines, any tips, would be great. Thanks, in advance. Vince

Response:

Hi Vincent,     I’m not familiar with the dying technique you are asking about but I remember reading in a fly fishing magazine a couple of years ago about using simple pantone? marking pens to do a camo dying job on a fly line. I liked the idea of breaking up the one color line and intended to try it on mine but never have. Maybe I will try it this year after reading your question and being reminded about it. Those pens work good for dying individual hackles too if you tie your own flys. Much cheaper than having to buy a neck for $50. I bought one creme color hackle for that purpose.                     Good Luck, Arlie Turman                     Scranton, Pa. USA

Response: