Question:

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.  As enforcement by the government is almost nonexistant, that shouldn’t be surprising.  These common practices do constitute theft in anyone’s book.

Obviously, you’ve never spent any time in eastern Montana where a lot of grazing is done on BLM. I can recall many times having the BLM officer who monitors the grazing permits in our area come around to check grass conditions, number of cattle, water hole conditions, whether or not the ranchers are pulling there cows off public ground at the designated time, etc., etc., etc. I also know of ranchers (not many, though) who lost their grazing permits (and they should) for not following the stipulated conditions on their permit. This same scenario (the proper management of grazing permits) happens all across the American West on both National Forest System Lands and Bureau of Land Management lands. You,  sir, are clueless. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

FISHING RELATED POST?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G. You never met a cattleman, period. —

Response:

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.

Brian D. Nelson responded: I can recall many times having the BLM officer who monitors the grazing permits … I also know of ranchers (not many, though) who lost their grazing permits … You,  sir, are clueless.

Across the west you’ll find varying compliance with grazing permits. Ditto logging laws and so on. I regularily volunteer to help with multi-agency state/federal fish surveys in eastern Oregon, and it is not uncommon to find cattle grazing well outside their permitted range. In one case we were surveying for bull trout in a remote backcountry area where grazing permits had been eliminated several years before, and yet we still found cattle and signs of regular grazing activity *inside the former and still-fenced allotments*. Some of the agency folks were suppose to followup on that discovery. Thomas Gilg

Response:

eliminated several years before, and yet we still found cattle and signs of regular grazing activity *inside the former and still-fenced allotments*. Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.

I’m sure there are instances of illegal activity such as you described. However, from my experience, I don’t believe that these instances are "commonplace". — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

Even if they are, that just means more money needs to be spent on enforcing the current restrictions, not coming up with more.

And sadly the folks breaking the law are the same ones against any additional government enforcement of the law. Thomas Gilg

Response:

  George– This is Cindy… Brian’s wife writing now.  I cannot believe your comments regarding ranchers/cattlemen ripping off the consumer.  I grew up in Eastern Montana on a small ranch.  My father received 70-90 cents per pound for his calves sold every fall.  This fall the price given to cattlemen for their calves is still 70-75 cents per pound.  Not much of a raise over the past 20 years.

snipped: Just don’t like cattle on my Federal Lands stealing habitat that belongs to the American People’s wildlife inventories.  Cattle destroy much too much and are a financially bankrupting entity that needs to be removed from all our outdoor recreational lands. George Gehrke

Response:

Just don’t like cattle on my Federal Lands stealing habitat that belongs to the American People’s wildlife inventories.  Cattle destroy much too much and are a financially bankrupting entity that needs to be removed from all our outdoor recreational lands.

The American People’s wildlife inventories are not starving nor do they lack a home. So what I hear you saying is that multiple use on our public lands actually equates to ONLY recreation. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G. You don’t have to like them, you have that right, but they are not stealing anything. As long as they have grazing permits it is legal.

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.  As enforcement by the government is almost nonexistant, that shouldn’t be surprising.  These common practices do constitute theft in anyone’s book. Jon

Response:

  When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose.

Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G.

Response:

Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past?

Boy, George, are you living in the netherworld if you think ranchers have ANY influence on the retail price of beef. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

What’s to do with FISHING anyways?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Boy, George, are you living in the netherworld if you think ranchers have ANY influence on the retail price of beef. What, are you suggesting that both ends are getting screwed by the large corporations in the middle? How un-American! Jon.

Response:

  When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother.

christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G.

You don’t have to like them, you have that right, but they are not stealing anything. As long as they have grazing permits it is legal.

Response:

I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother?

In this country, you are entitled to your own opinion…. even when it’s an incorrect one. Maybe if you’d actually get out there and meet a real cattleman, you’d change your tune. George– This is Cindy… Brian’s wife writing now.  I cannot believe your comments regarding ranchers/cattlemen ripping off the consumer.  I grew up in Eastern Montana on a small ranch.  My father received 70-90 cents per pound for his calves sold every fall.  This fall the price given to cattlemen for their calves is still 70-75 cents per pound.  Not much of a raise over the past 20 years.  Your accusations against the ranchers holds no water.  You are basically talking out of your rear-end.  If you would do some research and cared about your country, you would see that the family ranches are unable to support their families.  Any help we can give the ranchers in the use of public lands is money put back into our economy and assistance to families who are trying to make a living providing food for your table.  And just in case you are a vegetarian, don’t forget those ranchers who graze cattle on public land can then use the land they own to grow grain and barley for your bread.  Don’t be such a twit. Boy, George… did you ever step in it!! When Cindy reads over my shoulder and kicks me off the keyboard…. well, you get the drift. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

I was listening to a recent NPR program, discussing the problems of depopulation in rural communities back east – sorry, can’t remember the exact state, possibly one of the Dakotas. The program talked about how more people are getting college education and moving away to city jobs, leaving rural life. As a result some farmers are converting their land back to prairie. What little I know of the Eastern states, I’d guess this is some pretty decent farm land being lost.  I also recently read about farm land in Wisconsin being converted back to forest. I know that here in the Southwest, we are enduring one of the worst droughts ever. Phoenix has had just 2.24 inches of rain this year, and may get no more rain until February or March. People are leaving the East and moving out West in huge numbers, and so people & agriculture are competing for many natural resources. So, it doesn’t sound so bad to me, when  "Hard-line environmentalists" are simply helping to maximize the reward to the taxpayers, from the business use of  Federal land. In a free market economy the cost for federal grazing rights should b e"all the market will bear". I know that there is an argument that this policy will reduce domestic beef production & increase imports. Well……perhaps we should consider the most efficient way this country feeds its’self. As a taxpayer and an eater, I want the cheapest (safe) beef I can get. This allows me to spend more of my income on other (US-made) products. It’s a tough life being a farmer. My grandfather was a successful farmer in England. He changed & correctly predicted the trends and made a profit – he didn’t need subsidies. He changed a farm that was widely diversified (sugarbeet, chickens, barley & milk, were just some of the products) to a farm that was specialized – he was one of the first in the area to see the demand for oil seed rape. As a farmer it doesn’t seem fair that a successful way of life is being changed. But all forms of business change over time – including farming.

|         www.sfgate.com        Return to regular view | In the old West, a tense showdown over federal lands | JIM CARLTON, The Wall Street Journal | Monday, November 11, 2002 |

Question:

Where are the Delaware River Shad? I have yet to get a report of any shad being caught. If you hear of any catches please report to my shad website at www.homestead.com/woofish/shad.html. Thanks.

Response:

Hi Peter.  Please refrain from making your shad posts to the Rec.outdoors.fishing.bass newsgroup.  It’s not considered "on-topic" to post about other kinds of fish on the bass group.  Much appreciated, and tight lines to ya! Regards, Warren Wolk (emailed to Mr Groves on 2/12)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where are the Delaware River Shad? I have yet to get a report of any shad being caught. If you hear of any catches please report to my shad website at www.homestead.com/woofish/shad.html. Thanks.

Response:

Is that you Bob? — Craig Baugher www.yessssports.com

Response:

Nope, but someone’s gotta do it  Mr Groves has courteously replied to my email, and has apologized for the off-topic posts. WW

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is that you Bob? — Craig Baugher www.yessssports.com

Response:

Whats funny, is I love shad fishing.  Go for Bass in the morning and evening and shad during the day.  same area. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nope, but someone’s gotta do it  Mr Groves has courteously replied to my email, and has apologized for the off-topic posts. WW Is that you Bob? — Craig Baugher www.yessssports.com

Response:

I wonder if we’re talking about the same type of shad Bill?  The American Shad? Warren2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Whats funny, is I love shad fishing.  Go for Bass in the morning and evening and shad during the day.  same area. Bill Nope, but someone’s gotta do it  Mr Groves has courteously replied to my email, and has apologized for the off-topic posts. WW Is that you Bob? — Craig Baugher www.yessssports.com

Response:

Yes we are.  Big run of American shad up the Sacramento and Feather Rivers as well as the American River in Sacramento.  They were transplanted in the the early 1900’s along with Striped Bass.  Is a fun day when you catch 30-50 2-5# shad on an 8 weight fly rod.  Do not even have to cast the fly as I fish from a boat at Verona, the confluence of the Sac and the Feather.  Just feed out a 30′ shooting head and Amnesia line to the backing.  As to bassing, lots of bass in both rivers, both large and smallies.  The Feather is fed by the drop-shotting king lake, Oroville and the Sacramento is fed by Lake Shasta.  Went by Shasta last Friday and Sunday.  Sunday was raining and had snowed earlier in the day as was some pushed up in the middle of the road.  Was some people out fishing the lake by Bridge Bay Resort.  Wanted to stop and fish, but since the purpose of the trip was dropping the boat off in Medford, OR for a paint job and new T-8 kicker and bracket plus a mounting plate for the new MK 65 – AP I was returning with no boat.  Figure I will fish the lake mid April when I can go reclaim the boat.  Will be done earlier, but doing a trip to Cary, N.C. for a wedding and see friends in Martinsville, VA the 6 of April.  So not boating till mid April at a minimum. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I wonder if we’re talking about the same type of shad Bill?  The American Shad? Warren2 Whats funny, is I love shad fishing.  Go for Bass in the morning and evening and shad during the day.  same area. Bill Nope, but someone’s gotta do it  Mr Groves has courteously replied to my email, and has apologized for the off-topic posts. WW Is that you Bob? — Craig Baugher www.yessssports.com

Response:

But, if you are a bait fisherman, you would be able to find Bass easier if you knew where the shad were. — Mike..   A true fisherman approaches the first day of fishing much as a child approaches Christmas, with the eager   anticipation, sleepless nights, making of lists, and the anticipating of pleasure.

Response:

Different shad.  Here in California the shad the bass eat are Threadfin Shad.  maybe 3" long.  And all the predators munch them.  The American Shad is the largest member of the Herring family and come to the river from salt to spawn.  The males are about 2# while the ladies are up to 5#. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But, if you are a bait fisherman, you would be able to find Bass easier if you knew where the shad were. — Mike.. A true fisherman approaches the first day of fishing much as a child approaches Christmas, with the eager anticipation, sleepless nights, making of lists, and the anticipating of pleasure.

Response:

Question:

return more hits on "scotch" than on "steelhead".   (I might actually try that.)

Joe please do not ever see how many hits you get about bluegill. Most respectfuly requested. Big Dale

Response:

Dejanews is a service which stores and indexes most if not all all usenet posts. Incredible, come to think of it. If you ever goof up in here, it won’t be forgotten.. Altavista has a Usenet search enigine too, I haven’t really compared it with the Deja service yet. Herman, having one or two unpleasant memories in the archives.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where is deja.news and how do you access it? I’d be willing to bet that a deja news search of ROFF will return more hits on "scotch" than on "steelhead".   (I might actually try that.) I was wrong.   (There’s something you won’t hear often here, Brian.) "Steelhead" appeared in 1,095 posts in the last 12 months; while I had to allow "malt" as well as "scotch" to bring that total up to a creditable, if distant, 495.   (It’s luchtime and I had a few minutes, okay?) Joe F.

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Hello all, I am new to this group.  I just found it the other day, and I have been very impressed by the courtesy and information found here (unlike a lot of Usenet). I have recently moved to Vancouver WA (just across the Columbia from Portland) from Wisconsin to follow my wife (good idea). Over the past several years, my father-in-law has made sure that I got out here to fish the Deschuttes with him.  Until I walked in that water, I had not know true trout.  We would put in at Trout Creek and take out 4 days later at Harpham Flats.  Normally we went during the salmon fly hatch (it is quite a thing having a "Redsides" take such a big bug). Needless to say, now that we have moved here, we have done a lot more fishing and my wife has wished a pox on the two of us for how much we are spending! To the point – On Sept. 24th, I am returning the favor and taking her father on the Deschuttes for a 4 day Steelhead trip.  I have never fished for them before, and I am very excited.  Any advice you all have would be greatly appreciated.  I already made the mistake (sort of – I got some great gear) of going to Kaufman’s and saying "I am going Steelhead fishing…what do I need?"  $1200 later I was out the door and ready for action (since I don’t drink I have to spend the money somewhere). Anyway, now that I have spewed all over this message, I would like to thank in advance for your help, and advice. Brian Blazer http://www.blazertechnologies.com

Response:

I am new to this group.  I just found it the other day, and I have been very impressed by the courtesy and information found here  <snip

Damn, are we doing that again? Welcome aboard, although we’re going to have to work on that not drinking thing.   I’d be willing to bet that a deja news search of ROFF will return more hits on "scotch" than on "steelhead".   (I might actually try that.) Seriously though, welcome.   Thicken your skin and jump in.   It ain’t always that cordial; but it’s always fun. Joe F.

Response:

Where is deja.news and how do you access it?

Deja News is at www.deja.com; but it’s easier to get specific answers if you use their "power search" at  www.deja.com/home_ps.shtml. Joe F.

Response:

Why do you persist in omitting "meniscus"?   Besides, I said a few minutes, not a few days.  :-)

meniscus?  What means?

Response:

Why do you persist in omitting "meniscus"?   Besides, I said a few minutes, not a few days.  :-) meniscus?  What means?

You know, that interface between the beer and the foam.   Recently mentioned in a remarkable 110 posts. Joe F.

Response:

meniscus?  What means? You know, that interface between the beer and the foam.   Recently mentioned in a remarkable 110 posts.

Mmmmmmm, BEER!  Now you’re speaking my language.  110 posts, really?  Wow, makes me feel like an influential guy.  Anybody care to define fly?

Response:

Mmmmmmm, BEER!  Now you’re speaking my language.  110 posts, really?  Wow, makes me feel like an influential guy.  Anybody care to define fly?

Sure.   It’s what men think with.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

To the point – On Sept. 24th, I am returning the favor and taking her father on the Deschuttes for a 4 day Steelhead trip.  I have never fished for them before, and I am very excited.  Any advice you all have would be greatly appreciated. Anyway, now that I have spewed all over this message, I would like to thank in advance for your help, and advice. Brian Blazer http://www.blazertechnologies.com

Brian, The Deschutes is spelled like what I wrote.   It sounds like the folks at Kaffmans got you all set up.   Your guide will do the rest with the type of fly’s that you should use.   If I only had one fly and was going to the Deschutes I would have a Frieght Train tied on to the leader.   Be sure to use a wading staff for you and your dad, it will save your butt from falling in so many times.  But when you do fall in keep your feet pointing down river, that will save your life. Sharp Hooks, Pat Holdzit Fishing Products Inc. http://www.holdzit.com Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …..(It’s luchtime and I had a few minutes, okay?) If you’ve got a few more minutes Joe please try: bastard loon PETA dam C&R C&K If you STILL have time on your hands I’ll try to come up with a more comprehensive list!

Why do you persist in omitting "meniscus"?   Besides, I said a few minutes, not a few days.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

I’d be willing to bet that a deja news search of ROFF will return more hits on "scotch" than on "steelhead".   (I might actually try that.)

I was wrong.   (There’s something you won’t hear often here, Brian.) "Steelhead" appeared in 1,095 posts in the last 12 months; while I had to allow "malt" as well as "scotch" to bring that total up to a creditable, if distant, 495.   (It’s luchtime and I had a few minutes, okay?) Joe F.

Response:

I’d be willing to bet that a deja news search of ROFF will return more hits on "scotch" than on "steelhead".   (I might actually try that.) I was wrong.   (There’s something you won’t hear often here, Brian.) "Steelhead" appeared in 1,095 posts in the last 12 months; while I had to allow "malt" as well as "scotch" to bring that total up to a creditable, if distant, 495.   (It’s luchtime and I had a few minutes, okay?) Joe F.

Thanks for the welcome… Maybe there are more posts about steelhead because of the few posts about scotch?  Or maybe the quantity of steelhead posts are because of the ammount of scotch? Brian http://www.blazertechnologies.com

Response:

…..(It’s luchtime and I had a few minutes, okay?)

If you’ve got a few more minutes Joe please try: bastard loon PETA dam C&R C&K If you STILL have time on your hands I’ll try to come up with a more comprehensive list!

Response:

Where is deja.news and how do you access it? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d be willing to bet that a deja news search of ROFF will return more hits on "scotch" than on "steelhead".   (I might actually try that.) I was wrong.   (There’s something you won’t hear often here, Brian.) "Steelhead" appeared in 1,095 posts in the last 12 months; while I had to allow "malt" as well as "scotch" to bring that total up to a creditable, if distant, 495.   (It’s luchtime and I had a few minutes, okay?) Joe F.

Response:

Question:

Do you really think that selling fly reels is the "public welfare"?< Well, it’s in MY welfare and last time I checked, I was a member of the great unwashed public.

THIS IS NOT MY POST!!!!!   I DID NOT POST THIS Check for your self.  I might be a lot of things-  but I would NEVER post under anyone else’s name.  Look Ken F.  I’m laughing like a dawg at a lot of this,  but YOU were cool to me when a few others dogged my ass…   Don’t you let this fool you. I can play games w/ the best of’em-  but the bastards better play fair-  ’cause  I sure as hell know how to fight dirty-   You see for your self.   I am nothing if not loyal to my own ethic.  You may not understand that ethic-  BUT  look around and see…   I made one hell of a mark fer a new scum bag.   Do I EVER not sign my posts? The primary concern of the individual should be that of becoming ‘diluted’, more specifically- Delusion. That shit is NOT RIGHT!!!!] The real BRUCE post Outta be 200 lbs of low grade CHUM!!!!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – THAT wasn’t the question Bellows.  The question was, why aren’t the shop carrying all our other products because the are so good. Now THAT, is a good question. Finally, this isn’t a question of me/us/ making money to pay many people their rightful wages and livelihood.  It is a question of "SERVICE" being provided at the retail level.  We make more money for Distributors and Retailers then what we profit by at the lower food-chain level of capitalism.  I hope you remember that in your regard Mr. Bellows.  I’m not the injured party here.  It is the retail shop owner and the American Fly Fisherman that are the injured party because the Retailer isn’t looking out for your interests and finally, not his own.

george, get over yourself.  there are plenty of other products that compete with your products that are just as good, if not better.  while it’s all well and good that you are proud of your products, and i would expect nothing less from a business owner, you must realize that other people’s products are damn good… and that if a fly shop decides to carry them instead of your products, they are doing what they feel is best for THEIR customers.  i frequent a shop that doesn’t sell many of your products… do i feel short shafted?  HELL NO.  if i thought i’d gain by using your flyfuzz (or whatever the hell it is) vs. the naturals and synthetics i allready use… i’d let the owner know and have him order me some.  i’m not losing out on diddly, no matter how much you think so.  same with your dubbing wax.  if i thought i absolutely had to have it, i would.  george, it’s friggin wax for christ’s sake.  i can’t imagine my tying would be so much better with a different kind of wax, no matter what gerke propoganda you choose to use. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you for your comments.  If you haven’t tried a NEW tube of FLY-MAKER’S WAX then you may not know what you are missing as a fly tier, for instance, nor any of our other products. George Gehrke/President Gehrke’s Outdoor Fly Fishing Products. Visit: http://www.gink.com MAY I SUGGEST THAT THOSE WHO cannot get our products at their local fly shop MAY ORDER FACTORY DIRECT at the same retail level (and sometimes less).  WE want to get any or all of our products into everyone’s hands, no matter what it takes. Please visit the capitalistic pig’s WEB SITE ABOVE.  or here : http://www.gink.com/ Read about what we can do for you.  If you want to truly protect your fly lines for instance, TRY our PZ fly line dressing and cleaner.  It is the best in the world.

when you call everything you make "the best in the world" my bullshit alarm starts screaming. EVERYTHING is guaranteed.  I defy everyone not to like anything we make.  

well, i’m not a huge fan of gink.  it’s allright, but not divine.  i enjoy trying out lots of different products… some work well, some don’t.   We happen to have the world’s best Guarantee also.  It seems to never end – this quality of products we make.  We are in a very Special Field of this Industry.

blah, blah, blah, propoganda, blah, blah, blah….lol chris

Response:

THAT wasn’t the question Bellows.  The question was, why aren’t the shop carrying all our other products because the are so good. Now THAT, is a good question. Finally, this isn’t a question of me/us/ making money to pay many people their rightful wages and livelihood.  It is a question of "SERVICE" being provided at the retail level.  We make more money for Distributors and Retailers then what we profit by at the lower food-chain level of capitalism.  I hope you remember that in your regard Mr. Bellows.  I’m not the injured party here.  It is the retail shop owner and the American Fly Fisherman that are the injured party because the Retailer isn’t looking out for your interests and finally, not his own. Thank you for your comments.  If you haven’t tried a NEW tube of FLY-MAKER’S WAX then you may not know what you are missing as a fly tier, for instance, nor any of our other products. George Gehrke/President Gehrke’s Outdoor Fly Fishing Products. Visit: http://www.gink.com MAY I SUGGEST THAT THOSE WHO cannot get our products at their local fly shop MAY ORDER FACTORY DIRECT at the same retail level (and sometimes less).  WE want to get any or all of our products into everyone’s hands, no matter what it takes. Please visit the capitalistic pig’s WEB SITE ABOVE.  or here : http://www.gink.com/ Read about what we can do for you.  If you want to truly protect your fly lines for instance, TRY our PZ fly line dressing and cleaner.  It is the best in the world. EVERYTHING is guaranteed.  I defy everyone not to like anything we make.  We happen to have the world’s best Guarantee also.  It seems to never end – this quality of products we make.  We are in a very Special Field of this Industry. Very Special. gg

Response:

Otherwise  L.R.  I don’t know what else to do.  Every fly shop that carries all our products grosses several thousand dollars a year or more.

george, you’re the only one making lots of money of gink, xink, and your wonderful wax… how many bottles of gink must a shop sell to make thousands of dollars<G?

Response:

_______ Everyone needs to have a heart to heat with their local pro shop.  Each Pro Shop that orders some of our other products they don’t carry, gets free samples of everything we carry that they can sell at full retail which is around thirty – $50 dollars worth of pure profit. Take this into your local retail outfitter and show them this offer.  If anyone has any other idea, I’m for it.  I’ll donate a whole box full of products for your favorite fly fishing club or person in need.  Each person that gets a fly shop to order two or more new products they haven’t tried with us yet, gets a complete set of FISH-FUZZ.  This is around $66 worth of free, deadly, streamer, wet fly, tying material in dazzling colors. Otherwise  L.R.  I don’t know what else to do.  Every fly shop that carries all our products grosses several thousand dollars a year or more. We move a lot of product that takes care of the majority of most fly fisherman’s needs world wide, but we could do a lot better Mr. Trout. You are certainly correct about this. Thanks for your support.  It is an excellent fly tying wax at that. Sincerely, george gehrke Used your fly tying wax for the first time this evening tying up some Golden Ribbed Hare’s Ears.  Best wax I’ve ever used.  How come so many places only carry Gink and not your other stuff? L. Baird

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Question:

 I’m curious about the Cabelas Dry Plus – the article implied that the neoprene feet are too thin and will invite leaks. Has anyone had a problem with this? Sam

I have used the Cabelas Dry Plus waders for a year now and I have not had any problems. I tend to do a lot of walking when out on the stream and they have held up great. They have neoprene knee pads which is nice.  They also come with a patch kit that includes the same material that the waders are made out of. If you get a leak you just iron this material into the waders – kind of melts together on the inside. Good luck, Greg

Response:

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I picked up the article on breathable waders in Fly Rod and Reel, and it was pretty informative. As always, there’s a tradeoff – between breathability, durability, and price. Find a match for any two of the variables and it might not match the third one. According to the article, Orvis Clearwaters sound the best for breathability/price but sacrifice puncture resistance. (But the warranty is nice.) The Hodgemans sounded like a good deal in that price range also. I’m curious about the Cabelas Dry Plus – the article implied that the neoprene feet are too thin and will invite leaks. Has anyone had a problem with this? Sam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There appears to be two typesof breathable waders; the gortex at $300 plus, and the Orvis type, now carried by many companies, at $129 to $160.  Orvis was first out with these they were mostly a dark green color.  I had a pair that worked fine until I lent them to my wife.  Then they developed  three holes in the seat.  Orvis replaced them free of charge.  LL Bean carries them and they guarantee there goods  beyond most companies. I liked them but they are too cold for float tubing, even with long underwear. JackKowalski e t… Here’s yet another equipment question: This topic has probably been covered here previously, but I’m looking for a breathable wader for hot spring/fall fishing in the Southwest. Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make a breathable wader in the $160 price range. Does anyone have any feedback they could give me about quality of these two, how well they’ve held up over time, etc? Thanks, Sam

Response:

There is an article on breathable waders in the current issue of "Fly Rod & Reel".  They seemed to be most impressed with the Hodgman’s of the Cabela’s, Hodgman’s and Orvis. JS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – test t… Here’s yet another equipment question: This topic has probably been covered here previously, but I’m looking for a breathable wader for hot spring/fall fishing in the Southwest. Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make a breathable wader in the $160 price range. Does anyone have any feedback they could give me about quality of these two, how well they’ve held up over time, etc? Thanks, Sam

Response:

very well made. writes: I’m wondering how well they’d hold up when float tubing. I won’t be doing a whole lot of float tubing, but I wonder whether I should get a cheap pair of neoprenes for the purpose. They hold up well. Wayne Knight Geneva IL

Response:

1) Where can I find Orvis Clearwaters for $129? I have only seen them at the listed $165.

There is an ad in this month’s Fly Fisherman.  It seems that Orvis has had an "official" price reduction on the Clearwater Breathable.  All Orvis dealers should now be honoring this price.

Response:

Anyone try the new Redington breatheable waders? I’ve seen them in a catalog only but they sound like a great deal. Four year unconditional warranty and $169. I’d like to see how they compare to the really expensive Simms. Thanks Michael L – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s yet another equipment question: This topic has probably been covered here previously, but I’m looking for a breathable wader for hot spring/fall fishing in the Southwest. Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make a breathable wader in the $160 price range. Does anyone have any feedback they could give me about quality of these two, how well they’ve held up over time, etc? Thanks, Sam

Response:

I’m wondering how well they’d hold up when float tubing. I won’t be doing a whole lot of float tubing, but I wonder whether I should get a cheap pair of neoprenes for the purpose.

They hold up well. Wayne Knight Geneva IL                            

Response:

I, too, have been considering entry level breathable waders.  In addition to the Hodgeman, Cabela’s and Orvis Clearwater, I am considering the LL Bean Streamlight Breathable Stockingfoot waders. Several comments/questions I have to Bill Kiene and others: 1) Where can I find Orvis Clearwaters for $129? I have only seen them at the listed $165.

Unicoi Outfitters in Helen, GA  had them at $129 when I was up there yesterday. — Charlie…

Response:

There appears to be two typesof breathable waders; the gortex at $300 plus, and the Orvis type, now carried by many companies, at $129 to $160.  Orvis was first out with these they were mostly a dark green color.  I had a pair that worked fine until I lent them to my wife.  Then they developed  three holes in the seat.  Orvis replaced them free of charge.  LL Bean carries them and they guarantee there goods  beyond most companies. I liked them but they are too cold for float tubing, even with long underwear. JackKowalski

t… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Here’s yet another equipment question: This topic has probably been covered here previously, but I’m looking for a breathable wader for hot spring/fall fishing in the Southwest. Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make a breathable wader in the $160 price range. Does anyone have any feedback they could give me about quality of these two, how well they’ve held up over time, etc? Thanks, Sam

Response:

test t… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s yet another equipment question: This topic has probably been covered here previously, but I’m looking for a breathable wader for hot spring/fall fishing in the Southwest. Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make a breathable wader in the $160 price range. Does anyone have any feedback they could give me about quality of these two, how well they’ve held up over time, etc? Thanks, Sam

Response:

I am excited that breathables will be coming down in price, but our top selling

Jeez Bill, at $349.00 those Simms Guide Models had better guide me to some VERY nice holes! 8^} — To reply, please remove "hormel" from my address.  Diapers and politicians should be changed regularly,  often for the same reason.

Response:

I, too, have been considering entry level breathable waders.  In addition to the Hodgeman, Cabela’s and Orvis Clearwater, I am considering the LL Bean Streamlight Breathable Stockingfoot waders. Several comments/questions I have to Bill Kiene and others: 1) Where can I find Orvis Clearwaters for $129? I have only seen them at the listed $165. 2) I like the Orvis and LL Bean models because they come in both men’s and women’s cuts/sizes.  When I buy, I plan to get two pair; one for myself and one for my wife. 3) I am concerned about the lack of knee protection (for we clumsy) on the Clearwater and Hodgeman waders.  Orvis, of course, has the excellent warranty.  But both the Cabela’s and the Streamlight waders have reinforced knees and LL Bean’s warranty is even better. I am only trying to get more information to make a decision.  Any and all comments would be appreciated. Jonathan Williamson

Response:

I am excited that breathables will be coming down in price, but our top selling Jeez Bill, at $349.00 those Simms Guide Models had better guide me to some VERY nice holes! 8^}

I’m planning to buy a pair of Simms. (Fortunately, I can get them wholesale). I’m wondering how well they’d hold up when float tubing. I won’t be doing a whole lot of float tubing, but I wonder whether I should get a cheap pair of neoprenes for the purpose. — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Here’s yet another equipment question: This topic has probably been covered here previously, but I’m looking for a breathable wader for hot spring/fall fishing in the Southwest. Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make a breathable wader in the $160 price range. Does anyone have any feedback they could give me about quality of these two, how well they’ve held up over time, etc? Thanks, Sam

Response:

Here’s yet another equipment question: This topic has probably been covered here previously, but I’m looking for a breathable wader for hot spring/fall fishing in the Southwest. Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make a breathable wader in the $160 price range. Does anyone have any feedback they could give me about quality of these two, how well they’ve held up over time, etc? Thanks, Sam

Hi Sam, I am sure that Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make good waders and stand behind them, but Orvis has the hottest deal on entry level breathables( anything under $200) Their Clearwater stocking foot breathable chest waders come with a neoprene foot and suspenders for $129. They also have a prorated 4 year warranty. I am excited that breathables will be coming down in price, but our top selling Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

Question:

Thumbing through a Japanese fly-fishing magazine recently, I noticed ads for waist-high waders- about 5 or 6 brands. The only one I’ve seen in the States is in the L.L. Bean catalog- and at a chest-high price. Anyone know of another source for non-neoprene waist waders? Thanks!

Response:

Check Cabelas out. They have a couple different waist-high waders. I do believe they are cheaper than the chest waders. www.cabelas.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thumbing through a Japanese fly-fishing magazine recently, I noticed ads for waist-high waders- about 5 or 6 brands. The only one I’ve seen in the States is in the L.L. Bean catalog- and at a chest-high price. Anyone know of another source for non-neoprene waist waders? Thanks!

Response:

Cabela’s has waist high waders neoprene for about 60 bucks was just looking at the online catalogue hope this helps will order a pair for myself in the next while Pierre – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thumbing through a Japanese fly-fishing magazine recently, I noticed ads for waist-high waders- about 5 or 6 brands. The only one I’ve seen in the States is in the L.L. Bean catalog- and at a chest-high price. Anyone know of another source for non-neoprene waist waders? Thanks!

Response:

I have a pair of Streamline waist-high stockingfoot waders that I bought about 6 years ago at a fly shop. They’ve been pretty good. The thing I liked (and still do) about the Streamlines is a collar inside them you can pull up around your chest when the water gets deeper than waist-deep (or when you’re tubing). I had misgivings at first about whether it would stay up, but hasn’t been a problem. They’re much cooler in summer and a lot easier to get down for those inevitable "pit stops" on the bank. I’d say go for it! Lance Hankins

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thumbing through a Japanese fly-fishing magazine recently, I noticed ads for waist-high waders- about 5 or 6 brands. The only one I’ve seen in the States is in the L.L. Bean catalog- and at a chest-high price. Anyone know of another source for non-neoprene waist waders? Thanks!

Response:

Try "Hook and Hackle" in Plattsburgh, NY, near the Canadian border. They have a web site under this name. I bought some very good stuff from them at a very reasonable price. Peter Diemand Montreal, Que. Canada – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thumbing through a Japanese fly-fishing magazine recently, I noticed ads for waist-high waders- about 5 or 6 brands. The only one I’ve seen in the States is in the L.L. Bean catalog- and at a chest-high price. Anyone know of another source for non-neoprene waist waders? Thanks!

Response:

Question:

I’ll be in Livingston, Montana Thanksgiving week.  Would like any recommendations on fishing in the area that time of year.  I know it’s cold, but being a steelheader, I don’t mind.  Thanks. Donald Albrecht A bad day fishing is still better than a good day at work!  <  <

Response:

: I’ll be in Livingston, Montana Thanksgiving week.  Would like any : recommendations on fishing in the area that time of year.  I know it’s : cold, but being a steelheader, I don’t mind.  Thanks. I think you misspelled "…being a steelheader, I don’t *have* a mind". — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

DEAR DON:         Stop in and see my good friend John Bailey and/or the gang there.  They will not only help you, they will tell you what the action is, but where to go.  You  couldn’t ask for a better place to stop in.  It’s the same old location called "DAN BAILEY’S".  Hope this helps you Don. Sincerely, George Gehrke/Mr. Gink

Response:

: I’ll be in Livingston, Montana Thanksgiving week.  Would like any : recommendations on fishing in the area that time of year.  I know it’s : cold, but being a steelheader, I don’t mind.  Thanks. I think you misspelled "…being a steelheader, I don’t *have* a mind". — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

I’ll be in Livingston, Montana Thanksgiving week.  Would like any recommendations on fishing in the area that time of year.  I know it’s cold, but being a steelheader, I don’t mind.  Thanks. Donald Albrecht

Hi Donald, The Yellowstone River should be good.  If your travel is limited then fish around the 9th Street island right in town.  It can be real good.   Another place to check out would be the fishing access site at Springdale.  Fish streamers down stream from there.  If you really want to get a feel for the river get the book Fly Fishing the Yellowstone River by Tom Travis & Rod Walinchus.  It covers the River from the Park to Billings and has suggestions for all months of the year. OR call Tom at his store The Master Angler 406-222-2273.  You can either get information or a book, maybe both.  Good luck and have lots of streams and warm clothes.  The fishing can be real hot and the weather the opposite. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

Question:

I’m sure Jason will remember you and that fish for the rest of his life. After all the "political" discussions on this group, your post came through loud and clear. Thanks for sharing it with us. Bob

Response:

John, Thanks for the story.  We can all take lessons from it.

Response:

It was damned quiet off Kennebunkport yesterday morning. Rain fell steadily and large banks of fog rolled off Mount Agamenticus to the SW, as well as off Cape Porpoise to the North. The VHF was silent. No boats in sight anywhere. 2 miles out my 17′ Invader drifted slowly as I sent cast after cast out in search of the blues. They weren’t there either. I motored in towards Walker’s Point, casting towards the rocks, hoping for that big migratating cow striper. She wasn’t there either. Mid morning the sun broke through, the boats came out and I knew it was time to leave. I can never stop fishing, so after docking I started making roll casts off the swim platform. On the first of these I saw a striper come out from under the dock opposite me and take the small deceiver. It was a small one, but fun for sure. I caught a motion from the corner of my eye and turned to see Jason, the 8 year old from the slip next door. Jason, like me, is possessed by fish. Every time I go to the marina he’s there, looking into the depths for a glimpse of a striper or catching sand eels or crabs. The kid loves fish. One arm was in a cast, one of those accidents we all have. The other held a sandwich. Another roll casts produced another fish, this one felt considerably larger, and I passed the rod to Jason. He fought the fish well for a kid with a cast and a sandwich, but a last minute head shake gave the first round to the stripers. It was enough,though, to make him an instant addict. "Finish your sandwich, then pick out the fly that will get your first striper" I told him. He picked a 2/0 white and blue deceiver and held it out to me confidently. It didn’t take many casts before his fly hooked into a good schoolie. I reeled quickly to get the fish on the reel, then jammed the fighting butt between the buckles on his life vets, propped his encasted hand on the rod blank and put his good hand on the reel. A small crowd formed to cheer him on as the schoolie darted and dove. Finally we saw leader, and I grabbed it and pulled his prize out. He held it briefly, then we released it and it swam back under the dock as the crowd cheered. We didn’t catch any more fish, as the water dropped below 2′, but the kid was airborne all day. He sorted my flies into two piles, good ones and bad ones. An instant fly connoisseur, he placed most of my creations in the bad pile :- "I bet this one would work on mackeral" he said, picking out a tiny #4 blonde type pattern. We spent the afternoon talking of fish and fishing, and after washing the boat down and heading for my truck I realized that I’d finally found something more fun that fishing. As I headed toward the driveway Dan, the dockmaster, called out to me. He too is a fly fisherman, and watched the day’s events. "That was fun wasn’t it ?" he asked, and I told him yeah it was great. "Could it be that he reminds you of someone you know ?" he winked. I went home and dug up my lighter 8 weight, looking forward to the casting lessons soon to come.                                                 jc

Response:

Question:

Sage blanks? Actually, you could save yourself some grief. Why? Because Sage will locate the location of the spine with removable white markings. I’ve built three SAGE rods and they all came with the spine marked out. The most difficult part is the coating. Try and get the FLEXCOAT package with syringes, cups and mixtures. There are two kinds of FLEXCOAT: one coat (thick) and several coats (thin). I’ve used the one coat and it works ok but for a more consistent finish, I would try the several coat version. Getting a slow rpm motor to turn the rod while applying the FLEXCOAT would help a great deal. If you can’t borrow one from the local flyshop, any BBQ motor will suffice. Not to worry, you’ll make a great rod! p.s. there’s a flyfishing digest on the net you could join.

Response:

I’ve used the one coat Flexcoat building many rods and I like it a lot.  In order to make it a little more workable in  a large finish area, I dilute the finish mix with a small amount of Acetone.  It is very quick to evaporate and leaves me with extra working time in laying a great finish coat on all types of rods. The only pitfall is to make sure that you don’t use too much acetone or your flexcoat will never set up correctly. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sage blanks? Actually, you could save yourself some grief. Why? Because Sage will locate the location of the spine with removable white markings. I’ve built three SAGE rods and they all came with the spine marked out. The most difficult part is the coating. Try and get the FLEXCOAT package with syringes, cups and mixtures. There are two kinds of FLEXCOAT: one coat (thick) and several coats (thin). I’ve used the one coat and it works ok but for a more consistent finish, I would try the several coat version. Getting a slow rpm motor to turn the rod while applying the FLEXCOAT would help a great deal. If you can’t borrow one from the local flyshop, any BBQ motor will suffice. Not to worry, you’ll make a great rod! p.s. there’s a flyfishing digest on the net you could join.

Response:

Question:

         My view on people who have sold out is someone who used to make good,    innovative, sometimes dangerous music who signed to a major and now seem intent    on making enourmous amounts of money playing dull, uninteresting music made with    a safe formula and relying on media hype to boost their income.             My list of major sell-outs would include:-                  the Rolling Stones, Genesis, M.Jackson, Madonna, Guns ‘n’ Roses           (you get the message) To the ones underlined (using "^"): I do not recall that they _ever_ pretended to be "alternative" at any time. They were _always_ mainstream from the outset. By this technicality and by your reasoning, they cannot be sellouts, since none of them were ever "innovative" or "dangerous" by your (and my own) criteria at any time in their carreers, in my opinion.  

        I stand corrected, on re-reading what I had written I can see that I had      slipped out of context for a while. I think I went away from the subject      (i.e. "alternative" music) and instead lingered on the sell-out topic.         What I tried to say (not very clearly) is that these people had made a      large quantity of good music that amassed them a very large fan-base, but when       their music quality dropped to a sub-standard level their record sales        (and hence their income) stayed at a high level due to media hype.

Response:

        Personally I think Nevermind was pretty much a sellout album, with me it hasen’t stood the test of time, or maybe it was just overplayed too much. — Richard Stride… ‘Master Myoclonis Meets Mephisto’

Response:

[Stuff Deleted ...] To the "alternative" loser,   I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory     -Isn’t this a contradiction, surely you’ve categorised alternative music.     I can’t speak for people in America, but in England "alternative" music is just   that – an alternative. It’s not a type of music, you don’t listen to a song and   think "Oh yeah, that’s alternative". It’s a category into which you can slot   many types, styles and fashions – i.e. Punk, Metal, Grunge, crusty, indie etc, etc.

Same here in Canada. And I get annoyed over such interpretations of "alternative" for the same reasons.          My view on people who have sold out is someone who used to make good,    innovative, sometimes dangerous music who signed to a major and now seem intent    on making enourmous amounts of money playing dull, uninteresting music made with    a safe formula and relying on media hype to boost their income.             My list of major sell-outs would include:-                  the Rolling Stones, Genesis, M.Jackson, Madonna, Guns ‘n’ Roses

          (you get the message)

To the ones underlined (using "^"): I do not recall that they _ever_ pretended to be "alternative" at any time. They were _always_ mainstream from the outset. By this technicality and by your reasoning, they cannot be sellouts, since none of them were ever "innovative" or "dangerous" by your (and my own) criteria at any time in their carreers, in my opinion.  Sure, the Stones began their carreers with much controversy and were known as "the Bad Boys of rock and roll" and still are; but IMO, they were merely attracting attention to themselves for commercial gain and success based on the free publicity of the news media. Their "cock-rock" musical style hasn’t changed in the past 30 years, qualifying them as probably more "conservative", and less versatile, IMO, than Frank Sinatra. Same for Madonna’s "cunt-rock" style. The unchanging nature of her music kind of ranks up there with Marie Osmond. BTW, you can also add Paul Simon, and most "resurrected" ’60s rock groups, like Starship (the most extreme example), The Greatful Dead, CSN&Y, Bob Dylan, Eric Clapton (all playing it safe to a lesser extent), and Elton John (another extreme example — recall 11-17-70, Empty Sky, Yellowbrick Road & compare with ANYTHING he’s done since 1980). —

Response:

Hiya, Could someone help me make an informed decision and post the track listing for the latest Pavement album. Thanks, E. |                                 Eric J.                                     |

Response:

        Where the hell has anyone seen a ripped sweater for $300 for crissake!?!?  This I gotta see…js

Response:

How do you think I must feel? I’ve been listening to snotty nosed little dweebs whining about poser’s since grade 10. Ten years ago.

wow, you were in the 10th grade in ‘83, me too.  do you remember the really bad post-punk bands of the day.  too bad i missed out on the poser bashing.  you know what’s really funny:  i still were the same clothes i did then.  then i was called a dirt-boy, now you can buy a ripped sweater for $300.  go figger. —                                   Jeff Scott

–

Response:

To all the "alternative" losers,         I have a little news for you.  You all seem to think that you are just the coolest calling bands sell-outs and making fun of all the ‘grunge’ dressers.  I’ve been sitting here reading your little arguementative articles and I think you’re all full of crap.  I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory and just because some of my favorie bands happen to have had maybe one album hit mainstream doesn’t mean that now I should change my taste in music.  It also doesn’t mean I won’t be attending Lollapalooza’s anymore.  Those were some of the best times of my life and will be for years to come (hopefully).  It really turns my stomach to read about your opinions.  Maybe if you weren’t so close-minded you’d realize how stupid you really sound.  I didn’t post this to get a hostile response, only to make you think.  Really, you do sound like a bunch of losers. Sorry.         -Joanna

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To all the "alternative" losers,    I have a little news for you.  You all seem to think that you are just the coolest calling bands sell-outs and making fun of all the ‘grunge’ dressers.  I’ve been sitting here reading your little arguementative articles and I think you’re all full of crap.  I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory and just because some of my favorie bands happen to have had maybe one album hit mainstream doesn’t mean that now I should change my taste in music.  It also doesn’t mean I won’t be attending Lollapalooza’s anymore.  Those were some of the best times of my life and will be for years to come (hopefully).  It really turns my stomach to read about your opinions.  Maybe if you weren’t so close-minded you’d realize how stupid you really sound.  I didn’t post this to get a hostile response, only to make you think.  Really, you do sound like a bunch of losers. Sorry.    -Joanna

yes!!! i posted an article to this effect a little while ago. i thought the whole idea of the mindset that this newsgroup is supposed to represent was being open to new things. lets stop bitching about who liked what groups when, and what groups have sold out because they need to make a living. lets start discussing music for what it is… music. its not grunge, its not alternative, its not rock, its not punk, and its not even disco. its fucking music. those terms are good as catagories for easier identification. kind of like male and female. that is all they are. what matters is the music. burnt

Response:

How do you think I must feel? I’ve been listening to snotty nosed little dweebs whining about poser’s since grade 10. Ten years ago. —                                    Jeff Scott

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To all the "alternative" losers,    I have a little news for you.  You all seem to think that you are just the coolest calling bands sell-outs and making fun of all the ‘grunge’ dressers.  I’ve been sitting here reading your little arguementative articles and I think you’re all full of crap.  I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory and just because some of my favorie bands happen to have had maybe one album hit mainstream doesn’t mean that now I should change my taste in music.  It also doesn’t mean I won’t be attending Lollapalooza’s anymore.  Those were some of the best times of my life and will be for years to come (hopefully).  It really turns my stomach to read about your opinions.  Maybe if you weren’t so close-minded you’d realize how stupid you really sound.  I didn’t post this to get a hostile response, only to make you think.  Really, you do sound like a bunch of losers. Sorry.    -Joanna

To the "alternative" loser,     I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory      -Isn’t this a contradiction, surely you’ve categorised alternative music.      I can’t speak for people in America, but in England "alternative" music is just    that – an alternative. It’s not a type of music, you don’t listen to a song and    think "Oh yeah, that’s alternative". It’s a category into which you can slot    many types, styles and fashions – i.e. Punk, Metal, Grunge, crusty, indie etc, etc.          What it’s an alternative to is the "mainstream". This is nothing more than     an enourmous financial institution providing financial security and massive     wealth to many "rock stars". Corporate back-handers ensure radio and TV play     to boring, and safe music makers. These bands are of course not all guilty     many just using the extra spending powers to produce better music (mostly former     indie bands who have signed to majors).           My view on people who have sold out is someone who used to make good,     innovative, sometimes dangerous music who signed to a major and now seem intent     on making enourmous amounts of money playing dull, uninteresting music made with     a safe formula and relying on media hype to boost their income.              My list of major sell-outs would include:-                   the Rolling Stones, Genesis, M.Jackson, Miss Madonna, Guns ‘n’ Roses            (you get the message)            Bands who I think are getting dangerously close to sell-out time                    (their records are getting more and more boring):-                            U2, REM, and Simple Minds         There are countless bands I could add, but I’m not going to (so there).             I don’t think people can be critical of Nirvana yet as they haven’t        released any new material, everything they’ve released since Nevermind was        recorded before Nevermind. They could go on to write better songs      (like Mettalica have) they could progress back to their old (and less popular)   style which is more likely or they could come up with some absolute bollocks.                 Time will tell.           Meanwhile people’s opinion will come and go, birds will fly, fish will swim       and polar bears will do whatever it is polar bears do.          So my dear Joanna, let people say what they want, insults breed nothing but contempt and statements like,             It really turns my stomach to read about your opinions.          Don’t say much for freedom of speech, do they.                       Bye,                         Rob

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