Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake? Well I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert but I am very familiar with both browns and landlocked salmon, in a couple of cases I’ve had trouble telling very bright browns from landlocks. In waters that sport both atlantics and sea run browns, it can be so difficult to tell them apart that you need to check the volverine (sp?) teeth to be certain, but that’s really the opposite problem, the browns are bright like a salmon, rather than the salmon being dark like a brown. I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns.

O.K., I see where the problem lies.  Since the discussion was about salmon born in the river it never occured to me that the browns in question were sea run.  I assumed we were talking about stream resident browns and that the salmon had coloring that matched theirs.  We have browns here that live in Lake Michigan and head up the streams only to spawn.  Having seen a few of these, I understand how one could have trouble distinguishing between them, when fresh from the lake, and salmon.  As a matter of fact, limited as my experience with them is, I’m sure I couldn’t tell them apart. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and they taste muddy. Bearing in mind that the vocabulary of taste is woefully inadequate (and often misleading), I’d say that muddy is a term that applies to all the salmonids to one degree or another.  Don’t get me wrong, I like them myself and am particularly fond of both Atlantic and King (or Chinook) salmon, but they do have a flavor component that is definitely earthy compared to many other, and especially white fleshed, fishes. I once whacked and ate a very nice brookie from the outlet and it certainly seemed ‘muddy’ to me. My biased taste runs to brookies, to me nothing is finer as far as trout go. I dislike landlocks, browns and haven’t had a truely wild or acclimatized rainbow, only the pellet fed stockies that I fished 18 years ago in NH. I much prefer haddock, flounder and swordfish to any trout/salmon, perhaps that’s one of the reasons why I hardly ever keep a fish. I do recall having some smoked salmon in Ireland that was exceptional though. He called them "dirty" salmon. He needs to try a salmon out of the Root river in Racine, WI some time.      :) This made me chuckle. The Root river? Sounds mucky

Rather an apt name considering the focus of this discussion.  The Root is probably the most popular stream in the state for salmon fishing.  As far as I know it also the most productive…..for reasons that are a complete mystery to me.  It is nasty, as is also true of all the streams in the extreme southern Lake Michigan watershed.  Doubtless, they all ran clear 200 years ago when the native prairie plants stabilized the rich silty soil, but all that ended the day the first sodbuster arrived.  Some progress has been made in cleaning them up in the last decade or two but MUCH more needs to be done and it will never happen, land use patterns being what they are here. Some, like the Milwaukee, the Menomonee, and a few of the smaller streams will run fairly clear during extreme low water conditions but they are typically opaque.  Agricultural and urban runoff, industrial pollutants, and sewage combined with an unknowable quantity of point source pollution conspire to make eating anything caught from these waters border on suicidal and yet thousands of people do.  What’s even more perplexing is that there actually IS something to be caught and eaten. Wolfgang

Response:

I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns.

This has been an interesting discussion for me; and since I was the one who apparently misidentified the fish, even all the more so.   By now, a week later, I’m no longer sure.   It’s my recollection that the fish I caught had the brownish coloring with the distinctive spots of a brown.   Not knowing there were no browns in the river, I had no doubt at the time that is was indeed a brown trout.   Do these small landlocks also have the spots of a brown, or is my memory going to hell? (knowing full well these are mutually exclusive positions.) Joe F.

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I fished the EO last fall and caught a landlocked that very much resembled a brown in coloration. The guide explained that as the fish adapt to the river, their color changes (I guess like the so called "Black" Atlantics). I fished again this June, and all the landlocks were bright silver. HTH In all knowledge, consider the source. Jim Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great report, Joe.  One thing, however:  the brown trout was actually a land locked salmon that was born in the river.  My first trip up there I caught a couple of these strange looking fish – they looked like browns, but had salmon tails and heads.  I asked a passing guide about it and he told me they were salmon born in the river instead of in the lake.  Later, at a fly show in Wilmington, I asked a Maine Game Warden about the same thing.  He gave me the same info as the guide.  As the fish gets bigger, it loses this trait and becomes more like the rest of the landlocks.  The tail is the big give away – it is slender and more forked than a brown’s. There has been controversy on the Rapid about browns.  Some folks say they are in the river, but it is the same fish that I caught at East Outlet.  No browns in the Rapid. Glad the GRW worked.  It worked on the Rapid also, but in size 18 and with dubbing instead of larva lace. Dave

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 or Gink- reaching Waldo

scott, you misspelt "gink-retching waldo." i’m a loon man…. a happy loonie. –waldo

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Managed to hold onto a 12" landlock long enough to actually land one; and by 5:00, I headed back to the cabin for dinner.   I’m taking it easy; tomorrow is another day in paradise.

Fishing for landlocks in the north woods may not seem like paradise to some folks, but it’s close enough for me. Nice TR. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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This is intriguing.  Salmon bred in the river look enough like browns to fool experienced fishers and one can tell the difference only by shape and or size of head and tail?

Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns and they taste muddy. He called them "dirty" salmon. Flyfish

Response:

This is intriguing.  Salmon bred in the river look enough like browns to fool experienced fishers and one can tell the difference only by shape and or size of head and tail? Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns

But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake? and they taste muddy.

Bearing in mind that the vocabulary of taste is woefully inadequate (and often misleading), I’d say that muddy is a term that applies to all the salmonids to one degree or another.  Don’t get me wrong, I like them myself and am particularly fond of both Atlantic and King (or Chinook) salmon, but they do have a flavor component that is definitely earthy compared to many other, and especially white fleshed, fishes. He called them "dirty" salmon.

He needs to try a salmon out of the Root river in Racine, WI some time.      :) Wolfgang

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Fishing for landlocks in the north woods may not seem like paradise to some folks, but it’s close enough for me. Nice TR.

Reminds me.  I have a reference which says that Gull Lake in southwestern Michigan (no secrets here…common knowledge) has landlock salmon in it.  Anybody here ever fished it? Wolfgang

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At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW?

Goddamn RW

Response:

Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake?

Well I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert but I am very familiar with both browns and landlocked salmon, in a couple of cases I’ve had trouble telling very bright browns from landlocks. In waters that sport both atlantics and sea run browns, it can be so difficult to tell them apart that you need to check the volverine (sp?) teeth to be certain, but that’s really the opposite problem, the browns are bright like a salmon, rather than the salmon being dark like a brown. I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns. and they taste muddy. Bearing in mind that the vocabulary of taste is woefully inadequate (and often misleading), I’d say that muddy is a term that applies to all the salmonids to one degree or another.  Don’t get me wrong, I like them myself and am particularly fond of both Atlantic and King (or Chinook) salmon, but they do have a flavor component that is definitely earthy compared to many other, and especially white fleshed, fishes.

I once whacked and ate a very nice brookie from the outlet and it certainly seemed ‘muddy’ to me. My biased taste runs to brookies, to me nothing is finer as far as trout go. I dislike landlocks, browns and haven’t had a truely wild or acclimatized rainbow, only the pellet fed stockies that I fished 18 years ago in NH. I much prefer haddock, flounder and swordfish to any trout/salmon, perhaps that’s one of the reasons why I hardly ever keep a fish. I do recall having some smoked salmon in Ireland that was exceptional though. He called them "dirty" salmon. He needs to try a salmon out of the Root river in Racine, WI some time.      :)

This made me chuckle. The Root river? Sounds mucky Wolfgang

Flyfish

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake? Well I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert but I am very familiar with both browns and landlocked salmon, in a couple of cases I’ve had trouble telling very bright browns from landlocks. In waters that sport both atlantics and sea run browns, it can be so difficult to tell them apart that you need to check the volverine (sp?) teeth to be certain, but that’s really the opposite problem, the browns are bright like a salmon, rather than the salmon being dark like a brown. I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns.

Caught a few of them on the Rapid – very brown-like but the shape was wrong – Dave explained the difference.  Funny thing, you can catch them in the same water, surrounded by regular landlocks.   Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Back when I worked for the fly shop,

Did you work at MGFS in Greenville?  Damn fine looking lady in there the days I went in.   SWMBO noticed also. Joe F.

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Enough! Enough! Black Flies be Damned! I want – NEED- to go back! Great TR. By the way, what was the flow rate? There in early june it went from 2900 cfs (almost unfishable) to 1200 cfs by the time we left 4 days later. 1200 is much better for wading. Jim Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am often frustrated by my shortage of fishing time; and when an opportunity arises, the stress of impatience can take a lot of fun out of the trip.  So sitting about the cabin in the morning, I planned to take it as leisurely as possible.   The fish would be there when I got there or they wouldn’t; and my determined sloth got me to the river by 2:30 in the afternoon.  Happy kids, happy wife, relaxed daddy. I was heading down to the East Outlet, where the Kennebec is born from the waters of Moosehead Lake.  The river plunges through the dam and immediately becomes a beautiful river, flowing under a steel truss RR bridge, then highway 15, before continuing south through Skowhegan to the ocean.   A dam or two slow the river farther south, and smallies abound, but here below the East Outlet, it flows free through the beautiful, North Woods region and offers big brookies and landlocked salmon. Three other guys were standing around in the parking lot when I arrived, and in a short chat, I found that one of them was a guide, though I’m not sure if the other two were sports.   The guide took them up on the bridge to point out good runs to fish while I rigged up the nice 4 wt. I got from some guy in Germany <g.   The two sports went on upstream, and the guide came back & chatted some more, offering a tip or two on where I should go between the road & the dam.   It’s a big enough river, but I wasn’t keen on sharing the tourist pools with two other fishermen; and thanking him, I headed downriver through the forest. Over dinner in Foxboro a few nights earlier, Dave had shared the location of a deep run a ways downstream; and I managed to see my way through the black flies & mosquitoes to find my way down to the landmark he described. Nice spot.   I’ll fish here.  (In truth, I’d have fished almost anywhere to get out of the woods by then.) Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW.   Instead of working on my swap flies, I tied up a dozen or so the day before, and I was ready.   The water level was down from the previous day, but still fast & deep, and a split shot was needed to get the fly to the bottom.   Starting at the tail end of the run, I drifted deep, covering the run, but nary a strike.   Finally snagged & lost the fly, a good time to re-evaluate what you have on.   I knew the GRW was a good fly, so I dropped down a size on both the fly (#16) & tippet (6x) and went back at it, moving upstream a bit. It didn’t take long before I hooked up to a small fish, which to my surprise turned out to be about an 8" brown.  I didn’t know there were browns up that far.   Moving up the run a bit, I was casting into a slick behind a large rock and was soon fast to a definitely larger fish.   15" of silver leapt in front of me, ran briefly out into the river, then allowed himself to be reeled in.  It was seemingly too easy when he took off again downstream. I had a lot of slack water downstream, so, chasing him wasn’t a concern. The thought of him coming off never occurred to me until he did a quick rolling jump and was gone in an instant.  Okay, that was fun. Moving up & out, I set the hook on another nice fish, who showed me his dark back as he leapt vertically to spit me out almost as fast as I hooked him. Hard to say, but probably in the 16" range again.   Short but sweet. Managed to hold onto a 12" landlock long enough to actually land one; and by 5:00, I headed back to the cabin for dinner.   I’m taking it easy; tomorrow is another day in paradise.

Response:

At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other. I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you. <g See Louie’s submission for the 2000 ROFF fly swap. http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/flyswap2000/grw.jpg

OK, got it. I think that’s a free-swimming caddis larva pattern. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

OK, got it. I think that’s a free-swimming caddis larva pattern.

At one of the claves LaPlac gave away a whole set of them in various stages. It was pretty cool (I just saw it, I didn’t win it). — Charlie…

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Glad the GRW worked.  It worked on the Rapid also, but in size 18 and with dubbing instead of larva lace.

I was going to tie some 18’s but didn’t have the hooks when I sat down at the vise.   For 14’s, I used the larva lace you sent me a while back, but for the 16’s, the larva lace seemed too bulky & I used V-rib.   Never got around to the dubbing versions (couldn’t find the right color in the box, then dinner was ready, etc.) Joe F.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great report, Joe.  One thing, however:  the brown trout was actually a land locked salmon that was born in the river.  My first trip up there I caught a couple of these strange looking fish – they looked like browns, but had salmon tails and heads.  I asked a passing guide about it and he told me they were salmon born in the river instead of in the lake.  Later, at a fly show in Wilmington, I asked a Maine Game Warden about the same thing.  He gave me the same info as the guide.  As the fish gets bigger, it loses this trait and becomes more like the rest of the landlocks.  The tail is the big give away – it is slender and more forked than a brown’s. There has been controversy on the Rapid about browns.  Some folks say they are in the river, but it is the same fish that I caught at East Outlet.  No browns in the Rapid.

This is intriguing.  Salmon bred in the river look enough like browns to fool experienced fishers and one can tell the difference only by shape and or size of head and tail? There are numerous references….McClane’s "Encyclopedia" comes readily to mind….which detail the differences among various strains of a given species taken from waters where they have long been established.  From what I’ve seen of such illustrations it seems that some of the differences among and between such strains can be greater than what you’ve described above. Makes me wonder just how closely related the land locked salmon and the brown trout are.  Is this a missed opportunity for the lumpers and splitters to thump on one another? Wolfgang

Response:

OK, got it. I think that’s a free-swimming caddis larva pattern.

BTW, while doing some nymph collecting a week or so ago I found green free-swimming caddis larva in my homewater. I had no idea they were there — I’d just assumed that all the caddis larva were of the cased variety, which are numerous. I’m going to have to try some GRWs. I’ve noticed that some fish I keep have stomachs full of what I can only describe as "green goo." I wonder if it’s GRWs? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I am often frustrated by my shortage of fishing time; and when an opportunity arises, the stress of impatience can take a lot of fun out of the trip.  So sitting about the cabin in the morning, I planned to take it as leisurely as possible.   The fish would be there when I got there or they wouldn’t; and my determined sloth got me to the river by 2:30 in the afternoon.  Happy kids, happy wife, relaxed daddy. I was heading down to the East Outlet, where the Kennebec is born from the waters of Moosehead Lake.  The river plunges through the dam and immediately becomes a beautiful river, flowing under a steel truss RR bridge, then highway 15, before continuing south through Skowhegan to the ocean.   A dam or two slow the river farther south, and smallies abound, but here below the East Outlet, it flows free through the beautiful, North Woods region and offers big brookies and landlocked salmon. Three other guys were standing around in the parking lot when I arrived, and in a short chat, I found that one of them was a guide, though I’m not sure if the other two were sports.   The guide took them up on the bridge to point out good runs to fish while I rigged up the nice 4 wt. I got from some guy in Germany <g.   The two sports went on upstream, and the guide came back & chatted some more, offering a tip or two on where I should go between the road & the dam.   It’s a big enough river, but I wasn’t keen on sharing the tourist pools with two other fishermen; and thanking him, I headed downriver through the forest. Over dinner in Foxboro a few nights earlier, Dave had shared the location of a deep run a ways downstream; and I managed to see my way through the black flies & mosquitoes to find my way down to the landmark he described.   Nice spot.   I’ll fish here.  (In truth, I’d have fished almost anywhere to get out of the woods by then.) Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW.   Instead of working on my swap flies, I tied up a dozen or so the day before, and I was ready.   The water level was down from the previous day, but still fast & deep, and a split shot was needed to get the fly to the bottom.   Starting at the tail end of the run, I drifted deep, covering the run, but nary a strike.   Finally snagged & lost the fly, a good time to re-evaluate what you have on.   I knew the GRW was a good fly, so I dropped down a size on both the fly (#16) & tippet (6x) and went back at it, moving upstream a bit. It didn’t take long before I hooked up to a small fish, which to my surprise turned out to be about an 8" brown.  I didn’t know there were browns up that far.   Moving up the run a bit, I was casting into a slick behind a large rock and was soon fast to a definitely larger fish.   15" of silver leapt in front of me, ran briefly out into the river, then allowed himself to be reeled in.  It was seemingly too easy when he took off again downstream.   I had a lot of slack water downstream, so, chasing him wasn’t a concern.  The thought of him coming off never occurred to me until he did a quick rolling jump and was gone in an instant.  Okay, that was fun. Moving up & out, I set the hook on another nice fish, who showed me his dark back as he leapt vertically to spit me out almost as fast as I hooked him. Hard to say, but probably in the 16" range again.   Short but sweet. Managed to hold onto a 12" landlock long enough to actually land one; and by 5:00, I headed back to the cabin for dinner.   I’m taking it easy; tomorrow is another day in paradise.

Response:

At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other.

Green rock worm? — Charlie…

Response:

Great report, Joe.  One thing, however:  the brown trout was actually a land locked salmon that was born in the river.  My first trip up there I caught a couple of these strange looking fish – they looked like browns, but had salmon tails and heads.  I asked a passing guide about it and he told me they were salmon born in the river instead of in the lake.  Later, at a fly show in Wilmington, I asked a Maine Game Warden about the same thing.  He gave me the same info as the guide.  As the fish gets bigger, it loses this trait and becomes more like the rest of the landlocks.  The tail is the big give away – it is slender and more forked than a brown’s. There has been controversy on the Rapid about browns.  Some folks say they are in the river, but it is the same fish that I caught at East Outlet.  No browns in the Rapid.   Glad the GRW worked.  It worked on the Rapid also, but in size 18 and with dubbing instead of larva lace.   Dave

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By the way, what was the flow rate? There in early june it went from 2900 cfs (almost unfishable) to 1200 cfs by the time we left 4 days later. 1200 is much better for wading.

I confess I don’t have the numbers.  The guide with whom I chatted mentioned them, but I don’t remember.   I believe it had been over 2,000 the previous day, but was well under that the days I fished there.   All I can say is that the river was very wadeable, and I was able to reach spots in the center that would probably be suicidal at higher flows. Joe F.

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Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW. At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other.

My guess is green rock worm, but it might be great rice wine, or Gink- reaching Waldo Scott

Response:

Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW.  

At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other.

I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you. <g See Louie’s submission for the 2000 ROFF fly swap. http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/flyswap2000/grw.jpg Joe F.

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Question:

Hello Jan, I am not a flyfishermen yet, but there’s are some in San Francisco. I am in no way affiliated with any fishing shops. San Francisco: Fly Fishing Outfitters (415) 781-3474 there are others… check out their link: http://www.scottflyrod.com/sfr/Dealers/dwstcost.html LELAND FLY FISHING OUTFITTERS 463 BUSH ST SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94108 USA ph: 415-781-3474 URL: http://www.flyfishingoutfitters.com Go the www.sageflyfishing.com and they have a dealer locator also. We also have a flyfishing expert at TackleTour if you have any additional questions. www.tackletour.com Jack Ip Senior Editor of TackleTour http://www.tackletour.com Hey everyone, I’ll be comming to SF in a couple of months and since Scott and Sage rods are pretty expensive here in europe I hope to do some shopping while there. Where would you recommend that I’d go look-see for fly rods in SF ? Best, Jan, Denmark

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Hey everyone, I’ll be comming to SF in a couple of months and since Scott and Sage rods are pretty expensive here in europe I hope to do some shopping while there. Where would you recommend that I’d go look-see for fly rods in SF ? Best, Jan, Denmark

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Hey everyone, I’ll be comming to SF in a couple of months and since Scott and Sage rods are pretty expensive here in europe I hope to do some shopping while there. Where would you recommend that I’d go look-see for fly rods in SF ?

<SHAMELESS PLUG Hey there Jan – Our San Rafael store is just about 15 minutes north of the Golden Gate bridge – we’ve been a  Sage Dealer since there were Sage dealers, and have Scott, Winston, G. Loomis, St. Croix and others. Location & Maps: http://www.westernsportshop.com/stores.html General Fly Fishing Dept Info: http://www.westernsportshop.com/flyf.html If you manage to get out on March 2-3rd, we’ll be at the Fly Fishing Show in San Rafael, along with many manufacturers and a lot of events. Fly Show Info: http://www.flyfishingshow.com/marin.html We also run our own Fly Fishing Fair – the first Saturday in May, but this year it will be up at our Santa Rosa store (about an hour north of the GG Bridge).  We’ll have more info on our website as it gets closer. Have a safe trip! — Jim —      http://www.westernsportshop.com Western Sport Shop Discussion forums –      http://www.westernsportshop.com/forums.html Western Sport Shop Email Newsletter Signup –      http://lists.westernsportshop.com/mailman/listinfo/wss-newsletter

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Hey everyone, I’ll be comming to SF in a couple of months and since Scott and Sage rods are pretty expensive here in europe I hope to do some shopping while there. Where would you recommend that I’d go look-see for fly rods in SF ?

The Internet: George Gehrke http://www.gink.com

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Question:

SSSHHHHHHH  Why tel anyone SSSSHHHHHHHHHHH. Nobody knows but us…

DSR is a big place on a bigger river.   I think our secret is safe. Apparently only about a hundred thousand guys know it, judging by last weekend’s crowd outside DSR. And don’t get me started on the cultural differences between the few fly fishers there and the lead-chucking majority. Joe F.

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(photos to follow, including one in my roff shirt)

Okey dokey, if you’re interested, the photos are up at alt.binaries.pictures.fishing.   The subject headings are just variations of my screen name: rb608-1, rb608-2, and rb608-3.   The roff shirt is in -1, but it’s unfortunately less than obvious.   -3 is a big salmon with the rod, and -2 is the standard guy-with-a-fish photo. Joe F.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep

Question:

Why the bimini twist?

…cuz the foxtrot looks dorky? -wf

Response:

If you aren’t worried about records, forget the bimini and fish a good tapered leader.  The bimini is a way to fish for big fish, like tarpon with a light tippit. If you are willing to fish a little heavier leader forget the bimini.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve only fished in the salt a few times but finally broke down and bought Lefty Kreh’s book on the subject.  My question is what use is the Bimini Twist?  I understand that if you are trying for a world record then you need great 100 per cent strength knots to tie in your 1 foot of "tippet class". I’m not really interested in that and I suspect the vast majority of salt water fisherman arent either…why not just tie your bite tippet on  with a surgeons knot or something? Sorry for this off topic question……now back to the Gink Wars. jorge — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on practically anything ™.

Response:

Good choice in books … My S/W Flyfishing Bible, I call it. As I understand it ( and have somewhat tested) the Bimini is the strongest knot to use "if tied properly!  I personally am a strong proponent of the "spider hitch" It is easier, smaller, and faster to tie, and I now can tee it in a few seconds…even in the dark.   I almost always use it to loop on tippet to leader on all sizes I use (5x to 20#) even in freshwater.  It supposedly is just as strong as a bimini except for shock load.  Since most of the time the rod / line absorbs the shocks it works great for me.  I have even done some testing and it usually takes a better bimini than I can tie to exceed the breaking strength of one of my spiders.  I have also performed this test with a couple of professional S/W guides biminis (in up to 20# test) and usually their bimini fails first. (or of course the unknotted line in the middle. If you want to give it a try I think the knot is listed in Lefty’s book. Usually they show this knot being tied using a finger or thumb as the "guide" to wrap around. I have had better luck using a small object like a toothpick or hemostats.  After some practice it can easily be tied with no tools by looping the line "between" the thumb and forefinger with no tools. Like the bimini this knot’s real purpose it to double the line and use the loop lines to tie another knot to something… or to make a doubled loop.  I use a lot of loops and normally just make the spiders loop, combine the lines, and tie a surgeons loop close to the spider.  This can result in a small loop of double line. (or as large as you need)  For your shock leader or bite tippet this give you a doubled line of class tippet to tie the knot with. The knot tied with the doubled line is almost always stronger than the spider, bimini, or the single class tippet.  I find the issue of attaching wire, 40# or 100# mono to any doubled 12-16 lb connection more prone to failure and problems than the class termination knot. So far I Never lost a fish due to a spider breaking. (Although I have lost lots of fish due to the line breaking between the knots (where it’s supposed to) just poor dumb bad luck….  I have lost a number of fish due to bimini knot failure. If you go with the bimini in the 20# & under size I highly recommend using pliobond or something on the final hitches.  I have seen way too many bimini’s start coming apart while fishing if they are not glued.  I even saw this once on a friends backing to flyline connection where he had used a bimini.  The really sad part is that a number of us were taught to tie our best binini’s by Stu Apte … So I guess we can’t blame the teacher!  I recall reading somewhere that it only took a few years to "perfect" a bimini and ony a couple more to perfect it on a rocking boat out in the middle of the ocean.  Maybe they were right. The real test is to always break a lot of line and knots until you are confident they as strong as the line. (or at least as strong a YOU can tie them)  I make leaders from clear Ande and use Ande tournament class line. This stuff comes in 1/4 lb spools, so I have a lot to waste. I just tie up the knots on each end to end up about 3′ outside the loops and then use a couple of chunks of cut off broom handles to hold on to and break the knots. I stand on the stick with the loop over it on one end and pull with my hands at the other until it breaks.  Just make sure you have safety glasses  on and don’t touch the line itself.  16# and up is quite violent when it breaks and can give you a nasty cut if it gets near you hands. (ah the voice of experience)  This isn’t real scientific but really help you determine the best knots that you can tie. Good luck in the salt!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve only fished in the salt a few times but finally broke down and bought Lefty Kreh’s book on the subject.  My question is what use is the Bimini Twist?  I understand that if you are trying for a world record then you need great 100 per cent strength knots to tie in your 1 foot of "tippet class". I’m not really interested in that and I suspect the vast majority of salt water fisherman arent either…why not just tie your bite tippet on  with a surgeons knot or something? Sorry for this off topic question……now back to the Gink Wars. jorge — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on practically anything ™.

Response:

Thanks so much for the advice over the bimini twist. (George and RJ). I will indeed practice a bit with the spider hitch and see if I can master that. I was fishing in the backcountry on my last trip to Latin America for snook and baby tarpon…..the fish were completely non leader tippet shy so I thought well in order not to lose’em in the mangroves and make sure I can horse’em, I’ll tie like 20 pound test on for a tippet.  I was having a ball catching 10 pound baby tarpon and small snook (and replacing the tippet every 3 or 4 fish cause the tarpon were sawing it up pretty good). However I hooked a big snook….the boat driver said "Its a big snook, Jorge….don’t let him get in the mangrove"…..the rod was an 8 weight Scott…..it was bent double and then broke a foot above the handle.   What did I do wrong there?  Is an 8 weight too lite for the backcountry?  Should I only use 10 pound tippets and depend on breaking off rather than stressing the rod too much?   It was a big snook….the boat was being pulled sideways into the mangrove and I’ll did was just hold on (in panic!). I appreciate the help you guys are giving to this beginner in the salt. Jorge — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on practically anything ™.

Response:

Most likely you dinged the rod at some time and it was weak there.  If it is a top of the line rod you can probably get it replaced.  You can also have a problem if you grab the rod above the handle cause you can change where the rod is stressed.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks so much for the advice over the bimini twist. (George and RJ). I will indeed practice a bit with the spider hitch and see if I can master that. I was fishing in the backcountry on my last trip to Latin America for snook and baby tarpon…..the fish were completely non leader tippet shy so I thought well in order not to lose’em in the mangroves and make sure I can horse’em, I’ll tie like 20 pound test on for a tippet.  I was having a ball catching 10 pound baby tarpon and small snook (and replacing the tippet every 3 or 4 fish cause the tarpon were sawing it up pretty good). However I hooked a big snook….the boat driver said "Its a big snook, Jorge….don’t let him get in the mangrove"…..the rod was an 8 weight Scott…..it was bent double and then broke a foot above the handle. What did I do wrong there?  Is an 8 weight too lite for the backcountry?  Should I only use 10 pound tippets and depend on breaking off rather than stressing the rod too much?   It was a big snook….the boat was being pulled sideways into the mangrove and I’ll did was just hold on (in panic!). I appreciate the help you guys are giving to this beginner in the salt. Jorge — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on practically anything ™.

Response:

Sounds like you were using the same guide I used…. Except when he tried to tell my buddy repeatedly in excited broken  English (the fish) GO IN MANGROVE! GO IN MANGROVE!  My buddy stepped out of the boat and sank to his shoulders in the silt….. But that’s a whole different story. We were in Cancun earlier this year and used 8 & 9 wt rods on the baby (4′ ) tarpon we found there & didn’t have any rod strength problems. I was using Sage Rplx’s and my buddy was using the Orvis and Fenwick HMG’s…  The tarpon action was hot and we ended up using straight 40# leaders when the all the premade tippets ran out….and still managed to break off a fair number of fish! (the folks at Sage are probably cringing if they read this! Sorry to have to tell you but your story sounds like operator error.  Strong saltwater fish need to fought with the butt of the rod not the tip.  You are risking it if you bend the rod beyond 90

Question:

Orvis has a "sink tip system’ that includes 5 foot sink-tip sections that will convert a floating line to a sink-tip one. Has anyone tried this? Does it work ok or would I be better off buying an actual sink-tip line?

I have one of these.  I use it on a six weight.  Casts like hell -hinging, etc…  It will get a streamer or nymph down a little, though.  Effective to about six or eight feet.  In general, I would not suggest it.  You can do as well with a longer leader and a couple of split shot with a floating line. J

Response:

Orvis has a "sink tip system’ that includes 5 foot sink-tip sections that will convert a floating line to a sink-tip one. Has anyone tried this? Does it work ok or would I be better off buying an actual sink-tip line?

Frank, I have one of these and they work ok in a pinch if you hit one or two deep sections and then go back to more moderate depths but if you are going to be fishing deep for extended periods of time my advice would be to buy a sink tip.  I do carry the Orvis sink tip for emergency use but they are a pain to cast and don’t get you down as well as a real sink tip fly line would in my experience. Good Fishing, C. Segina

Response:

Orvis has a "sink tip system’ that includes 5 foot sink-tip sections that will convert a floating line to a sink-tip one. Has anyone tried this? Does it work ok or would I be better off buying an actual sink-tip line?

I haven’t seen Orvis’ up close but Cortland’s tend to be too heavy for my 4 wt.  I have a beat up old full sinking 9 wt line and the thin running portion of it is perfect for making mini sink tips.  The only drawback is that this requires a loop to loop connection.  I prefer nail-knotting a piece of thick leader material and then tying a perfection loop at the end since it lands on the water more softly than a fly-line looped end. Mu

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Frank, Splurge and go for the full line in a medium density.  Use it on a longer rod with a short (3 to 4 ft) leader.  The rod length is for mending and good control.  Don’t believe those who say any old rod and a long leader.  You need to mend and the fly needs to sink.  The longer the distance between the fly and the weight of the tip section, the higher the fly will ride.  You can use leader length to fine tune your drift depth. I made those mini sink tips from lead core years ago.  They’ll sink your fly, but you won’t like the casting unless you’re using 8 wt line+.  They cast like slinky weights on running line — chuck and duck. Mike If you buy a sink tip that has too much tip for your needs, you can just cut it down and reattach your leader butt.  

Response:

Frank: I’ve used the Orvis lead head sections – I don’t think they offer them any more – that must be similar (though shorter) than the 5 ft sink -tip head that you are looking at. These things came in 12 inch and 24 inch sections, and could be looped in at the end of the regular fly line, and the leader looped on the other end.  I think they are quite useful in certain circumstances.  I keep them in my vest, and if I need to go deeper in a spot they work very well – but they are not a substitute for a true sink tip line, say for lake fishing. Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Orvis has a "sink tip system’ that includes 5 foot sink-tip sections that will convert a floating line to a sink-tip one. Has anyone tried this? Does it work ok or would I be better off buying an actual sink-tip line? Frank

Response:

Orvis has a "sink tip system’ that includes 5 foot sink-tip sections that will convert a floating line to a sink-tip one. Has anyone tried this? Does it work ok or would I be better off buying an actual sink-tip line? Frank

Response:

I have tried these and they will sink your line well but, having a sudden transition to denser line,they are far more difficult to cast than a true sink tip line (but also cheaper). If you have the money for a line and spool, go for the full line. The most effective place for your weight lies in the fly though. Go with a longer leader and a weighted fly for the best effect. Orvis has a "sink tip system’ that includes 5 foot sink-tip sections that will convert a floating line to a sink-tip one. Has anyone tried this? Does it work ok or would I be better off buying an actual sink-tip line? Frank

– Remove "nospam" from address if emailing direct.

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Question:

Look around Red River Gorge area also.  It is south of Morehead an hour or so. Some of the streams are stocked around that area.  As the previous message said, check with F & W.  The local biologist would be the one to talk to. Kenny

Response:

Any places in the eastern part of the state (near Lexington/Fayette County) that contain trout? — Nicholas J. Slodki

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Any places in the eastern part of the state (near Lexington/Fayette County) that contain trout? — Nicholas J. Slodki

I live in Tn but I know there’s a tailwater on Herrington Lake, also Cumberland river down south. Then there’s a few trout streams around Morehead on higway 64. Try Kentucky Dept of Wildlife or equivalent, Try on Alta vista or Yahoo. That should give you the adress. Hans

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Question:

— You should have told him about St. Regis, MT.  I don’t think you can get an outastate licence outastate!  

You can also get Idaho licenses in Missoula, at a big sporting goods store, the name of which I forget. — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

Try telephoning (800)55HUNT5.  Idaho Fish & Game will mail within two weeks.  It’s a great service.  By the way, a neat way to contribute to Idaho’s trout is to buy a season’s license no matter how many days you intend to fish.  I’ve done it for years and it makes me feel good.  (p.s. I live in West Des Moines, Iowa)

Response:

: Can anyone suggest a location to purchase an Idaho fishing licence in either : Coeur D’Alene or Wallace?  I will be driving thru soon and need to pick up an : out-of-state licence.  I used to buy them in St. Regis, but they stopped : selling them. Stop in Coeur d’Alene at just about any gas station or store.  It’s risky to wait until Wallace… it’s a small town and besides… Wallace was destroyed by that volcano.  Didn’t you see the movie? —

You should have told him about St. Regis, MT.  I don’t think you can get an outastate licence outastate!   Go Vandals! john wheaton (boise & plummer) my opinion is always my own…

Response:

Can anyone suggest a location to purchase an Idaho fishing licence in either Coeur D’Alene or Wallace?  I will be driving thru soon and need to pick up an out-of-state licence.  I used to buy them in St. Regis, but they stopped selling them. thanks! -John

Hi John In CDA you can get them at Tom’s Sportco on 4th St or in Wallace there is a sports shop (the name slips past right now) that is on the main st in town. Good luck on your trip. Email me how things turn out — I suspect you are going to the Joe. Take care & … — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products On line catalog – tips & tricks at: http://www.btsflyfishing.com

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: Can anyone suggest a location to purchase an Idaho fishing licence in either : Coeur D’Alene or Wallace?  I will be driving thru soon and need to pick up an : out-of-state licence.  I used to buy them in St. Regis, but they stopped : selling them. Stop in Coeur d’Alene at just about any gas station or store.  It’s risky to wait until Wallace… it’s a small town and besides… Wallace was destroyed by that volcano.  Didn’t you see the movie? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

Can anyone suggest a location to purchase an Idaho fishing licence in either Coeur D’Alene or Wallace?  I will be driving thru soon and need to pick up an out-of-state licence.  I used to buy them in St. Regis, but they stopped selling them. thanks! -John

Response:

Question:

In California we have lots of dragon & damsel flies in our warm water ponds. We use some pretty fancy looking dragon fly nymphs, but I think a wooly bugger tied the size and color of you bugs will work as well.

[snip] Quite so: no need to go nuts with long-winded/tediously overdone dragon nymph patterns. If you’ve ever actually seen a dragon nymph move out, you know how damn fast those critters are, and how little time a trout/bass/whatever has to spot/target/nail ‘em. Wooly Buggers tied in general size/color with good tail action work just fine on the Right Coast, and a couple of strands of pearl flashabou seems to get the fish’s attention from greater distances as well… Cheers! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.       Alpha Server Engineering < <     "What doesn’t kill you…will hurt like heck!"     < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In California we have lots of dragon & damsel flies in our warm water ponds. We use some pretty fancy looking dragon fly nymphs, but I think a wooly bugger tied the size and color of you bugs will work as well. [snip] Quite so: no need to go nuts with long-winded/tediously overdone dragon nymph patterns. If you’ve ever actually seen a dragon nymph move out, you know how damn fast those critters are, and how little time a trout/bass/whatever has to spot/target/nail ‘em. Wooly Buggers tied in general size/color with good tail action work just fine on the Right Coast, and a couple of strands of pearl flashabou seems to get the fish’s attention from greater distances as well… Cheers! /dave

I may be fooling myself, but I like to add the black plastic eyes.  Some of the bugs have very prominent eyes, and I feel like these work a scootch better.  And if nothing else, they make my wife squeal more when I show her the fly. My three year old loves ‘em, too. I don’t go for any other anatomical features.  A sparse, fat, wooly bugger with eyes works great.

Response:

I fish a local pond, which happens to be choked with weeds and cattails, for bass and blugill.  I have noticed a large population of both dragonflys and damselflys.  I would think the fish must eat a lot of the flies larvae.  So, what are the best patterns for these critters.   BTW, thanks for answering my other questions.  Taking up flyfishing is giving me lots of them, but isn’t that the best part of fishing? Nicolo

Response:

In South Africa a large proportion of our fishing is for stillwater trout. We tend to have a large concentration of dragon/damsel flies in our waters over here. I tend to imitate the damselflies by using a small Wooly Bugger(size 12-14) or Filoplume damsel. For a dragonfly I either use a Hoverdragon or a pattern that I learnt from our flytying club(NFDS). The body/thorax is made up of maribou and the eyes are tuff chenile. If you need the fly tying patterns just give a shout! Paul

Response:

Some Damselfly and Dragonfly patterns used for trout here in B.C. include: Damselfly: ‘52 Buick large Halfback Dragonfly: Bottomwalker Gomphus Doc Spratley B. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I fish a local pond, which happens to be choked with weeds and cattails, for bass and blugill.  I have noticed a large population of both dragonflys and damselflys.  I would think the fish must eat a lot of the flies larvae.  So, what are the best patterns for these critters.   BTW, thanks for answering my other questions.  Taking up flyfishing is giving me lots of them, but isn’t that the best part of fishing? Nicolo

Response:

I fish a local pond, which happens to be choked with weeds and cattails, for bass and blugill.  I have noticed a large population of both dragonflys and damselflys.  I would think the fish must eat a lot of the flies larvae.  So, what are the best patterns for these critters.  

Hi Nicolo, In California we have lots of dragon & damsel flies in our warm water ponds.  We use some pretty fancy looking dragon fly nymphs, but I think a wooly bugger tied the size and color of you bugs will work as well. Trout feeding on emerging damsels requires matching their size, color and action.  I think that bass and panfish are a little less selective.  We also use small/medium poppers for warm water fish.  I like all black poppers and yellow or frog colored, also. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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Question:

I am trying to contact the Martin Reel company.  They seemed to have closed both their factory in Mohawk, NY where my fly reel   was manufactured and their customer service office in Tulsa OK, which is listed on my warranty card.  Good thing I decided to call before sending my reel in for repairs!  I thought my troubles were solved when I found a phone# for Martin Reels in a recent product review in Flyfishing magazine, but instead it was the residence of one very irrate lady who sounded pretty fed up with people calling about fly reels.  Anyway, if you happen to know a phone number for Martin Reels, or have a recent warranty card with a new address or phone number I would certainly appreciate it! Roger. —  Roger S. Barga     | Department of Computer Science and Engineering                     | Oregon Graduate Institute of Science and Technology (503) 690-1121 7308 | P.O. Box 91000

Response:

I am trying to contact the Martin Reel company.  They seemed to have closed both their factory in Mohawk, NY where my fly reel   was manufactured and their customer service office in Tulsa OK, which is listed on my warranty card.  Good thing I decided to call before sending my reel in for repairs!  I thought my troubles were solved when I found a phone# for Martin Reels in a recent product review in Flyfishing magazine, but instead it was the residence of one very irrate lady who sounded pretty fed up with people calling about fly reels.  Anyway, if you happen to know a phone number for Martin Reels, or have a recent warranty card with a new address or phone number I would certainly appreciate it! Roger.

Martin was bought by Zebco, hence the Tulsa address, so you should be able to call them. -bruce pencek — Political Science, Box 15036      as eternal salvation — come by grace and   Northern Arizona University       grace comes by art and art does not come Flagstaff, AZ  86011-5036         easy."                 — Norman Maclean

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Question:

I just got back from a two week vacation to the Bighorn & the Henry’s Fork.  The fishing was great! The Bighorn: Running at twice the volume that I’ve ever fished it before.  My objective was to put my girls into large rainbows and browns.  With the high water there places for them to wade on the right side looking downstream were extremely difficult.   BTW the volume flow was 6500 cfs.  I took the girls out with Frank Johnson from the Bighorn Trout Shop the first day.  The girls both caught Brown’s to 18 inches.  The long line releases ran about 5:1, but they did great under difficult conditions.  The nice gravel bars I expected them to be able to put them on were either four feet under water or completely washed out.  Many of my favorite dry fly areas (side channels and backwaters were completely washed out, never to be seen again).  Lets hear it for the DWR.  Frank feels that in ten to twenty years of the current mismanagement the bighorn will be a nice smooth irrigation ditch with no character. The next two days I took the oars and really enjoyed myself.  My twelve year old took a twenty-one inch rainbow male on the second day.  The fishing was good but not what I really like (too much lead). Henry’s Fork (July 3 thru July 9):  The weather turned cold and wet.  Sleet, hail and snow at higher elevations.  The only warm weather was on Thursday my last day. July 3: Fished the Fire Hole in wet cold weather.  Lots of PMD’s comming off, but not profusely.  Lot’s of small fish raising all over on the PMD’s. A few big fish were porposing regularily.  Looking closer I noticed Baetis were hatching and the big guys were keyed into the size 18 & 20’s.  I fished downstream with dry baetis emerger and had a ball with fish to 16 inches. Everyone else in my area was using the larger PMD’s and catching dinks. The rest of the trip I fished the Fork, concentrating on the Ranch.  Great hatches and great dry fly fishing.  At on point below the Osborn bridge there were five insect hatches in progress (micro caddis, evening caddis – size 18, large Caddis with speckled wings, PMD’s and Flav’s).  The fish keyed into different hatches as the light conditions changed. I’ll get on my soap box for a second.  The Fork is still a mighty sick river.  Lot’s of silt and Brown Drakes in the Millionaires Pool area where I remember only gravel.  Also a lot of the fish in the river a lake fish from the Res. that was drained last year.  You know immediately when you have a river fish, they jump 3 or 4 times and take you into your backing immediately.  The trout from the lake are much less robust.  The increase in trout numbers is great for the outfitters, but I miss the quality.  I missed having my clock cleaned by big trout on the Ranch, ripping line and rubbing me off in a weed bed.  The trout have to win sometimes to make it interesting. My only regret was that I had to leave without a spinner fall.   It was just too cold in the evenings, except for last Thursday.  I spent a beautiful evening on the ranch waiting for spinners and had to settle for a Brown Drake hatch.  The big trout were up for about thirty minutes before the White fish moved in and the trout were gone. It’s always fun  to spend the evening in Church (The Ranch)! If you want some great guides for the Ranch I’d recommend  Mate (The last name escapes me, if I ever knew it), who guides for Mike Lawson’s Henry’s Fork Anglers at last chance.

Response:

I forgot to mention that the area from the end of the Box to the Ranch was fishing great on drys (Caddis, PMD’s and Flav.’s).   Fish to raisers, don’t just cover water.  

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