Question:

(shit, gotta teach these friggin’ yankees EVERYTHING!)

    tell me about it.  it’s been my personal burden for decades. your friend in the old north state wayno

Response:

Where are these photo essays posted at? Tim Apple

Response:

Where are these photo essays posted at? Tim Apple

Here’s the link to the page on Peter’s site…some nice water on display. http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/strmr-13.html Cheers, Bill

Response:

Hmm…. Very nice, Peter. otoh, remind me never to take you to any of my favorite New Hampshire brookie ponds ‘lessen you leave your shootin’ iron at home!

and why not?  :) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Speakin’ of brookie ponds, I hit two of the best on a sparkling White Mountain Fall day, one pond in the morning ’til lunch, the other after lunch ’til dark. Took three of my Winstons in the canoe, a 9/3 with a tiny white parachute midge on 7x, a 9/5 with a damselfly on 5x, and another 9/5 with a Type 6 uniform sinker tipped with a #10 Silverside. I was loaded for bear. The sky was blue, the sun was hot…and the wind was beginning to rise. Some nasty tropical weather is apparently coming up here to die and fighting that wind taxed the hell out of my trollin’ motor battery, not to mention making dry fly fishing more challenging at times. But I was determined to fish the three weight at least once this year so I set out, working along the windward bank, and had a ball. A 14" cold water brookie on this rod feels like a monster and before the first lap of the pond I was lucky enough to catch a couple of biguns to go with as many shorts. Kept working a dry fly along the shore line on a second lap catching the odd fish, ’til the rising wind pushed me into the clutches of The Dark Side and I took to trolling the deep middle with the supersinker. In short order – three passes over the really deep spot in the pond – I had caught a matched pair of slabby females and one precocious male short that was colored up like he meant business *this* year…

Did you set up the canoe of the windward side of the lake and let the wind blow you across?  Years ago, I watched a TV spot with two guys in Quebec in a wooden boat that was a cross between a canoe and a row boat.  There was a wicker chair at each end and the guys were stretched out, fly rods over the side, letting the wind push them across.  Looked mighty peaceful way to fish. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Right about noon, feeling nicely toasted by rays, wind, and whatever, I pulled out and headed over to my first favorite little brookie pond and had lunch while the battery charged up. The wind had risen well beyond the 3 weight so I was down to the dry and wet fives. All afternoon I was looking for that "just barely legal" fish to boink and consume In The Name Of Tim. I fished the hell out of that pond with dry fly and streamer until near dark battling wind and white caps and wishing I had a dagger board clamped up alongside the bow. I did catch a half dozen fish before dark, but all were either undersized or honestly just too big – this close to spawning season I just can’t whack a big ol’ cow brookie or her old man (that’s *my* principle and I won’t be moved by some confused BassMaster wannabee out in Colorado . Still, felt like fish for dinner, so at dark as I drove back to my cabin I threw a reach cast into the little grocery in beautiful downtown Franconia and pulled out some Kipper snacks, smoked oysters, real cheddar cheese, and some gnarly bread that the local hippy bakery up here supplies to the store. And some *excellent*  Tuckerman Pale Ale, brewed by Kirsten and Nik at Tuckerman Brewing Company in Conway. www.tuckermanbrewing.com Just one of the *many* New England brews that would kick that pommy Sleeman’s ass back to Saskatoon

ya right, take twenty of those yankee cabbage water brews to measure up to one Sleemans and it’s Guelph, not Saskatoon and the original Mr. Sleemans was probably a kraut, not a pommy (shit, gotta teach these friggin’ yankees EVERYTHING!) Hoping to meet up with Dave "Flyfish" Bottom in the morning on the Magalloway. It looks pretty grim on weather.com… /daytripper  ("Mmmmmm….Kipper snacks!"

Haven’t had kippers since I was a kid – keep this up and you might get a surprise guest one day and you might be able to twist my arm enough for me to drink some of that cabbage water. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Bob Patton’s and Bill Mason’s photos are now up. Yet to come: Meramec – Bob Patton Whitemans Creek, ON Spring Creek, PA Penns Creek, PA Credit River, ON Rapid River, ME Bronte Creek, ON Saugeen River, ON AuSable, NY 18 Mile Creek, NY or until I run out of space on the server. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

forgot the URL http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/strmr-13.html Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Bob Patton’s and Bill Mason’s photos are now up.

Thank you again, Peter.  Looking through the essay photos, I’m reminded that it’s really the little out-of-the-way waters I enjoy the most.  The big, famous rivers offer their own unique experience, but I find that a day spent with a friend on an uncrowded stream really captures the essence of the sport for me.  I’m looking forward to more pictures, but make sure that you leave yourself some time for fishing! Cheers, Bill —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

//snip// Thank you again, Peter.  Looking through the essay photos, I’m reminded that it’s really the little out-of-the-way waters I enjoy the most.  The big, famous rivers offer their own unique experience, but I find that a day spent with a friend on an uncrowded stream really captures the essence of the sport for me.  I’m looking forward to more pictures, but make sure that you leave yourself some time for fishing! Cheers, Bill

I’ll second Bill’s comments. Thanks, Charles. Now, where the hell is Frenchman’s creek? Gotta go there soon! Bob

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – //snip// Thank you again, Peter.  Looking through the essay photos, I’m reminded that it’s really the little out-of-the-way waters I enjoy the most.  The big, famous rivers offer their own unique experience, but I find that a day spent with a friend on an uncrowded stream really captures the essence of the sport for me.  I’m looking forward to more pictures, but make sure that you leave yourself some time for fishing! Cheers, Bill I’ll second Bill’s comments. Thanks, Charles. Now, where the hell is Frenchman’s creek? Gotta go there soon! Bob

Hmm…. Very nice, Peter. otoh, remind me never to take you to any of my favorite New Hampshire brookie ponds ‘lessen you leave your shootin’ iron at home! Speakin’ of brookie ponds, I hit two of the best on a sparkling White Mountain Fall day, one pond in the morning ’til lunch, the other after lunch ’til dark. Took three of my Winstons in the canoe, a 9/3 with a tiny white parachute midge on 7x, a 9/5 with a damselfly on 5x, and another 9/5 with a Type 6 uniform sinker tipped with a #10 Silverside. I was loaded for bear. The sky was blue, the sun was hot…and the wind was beginning to rise. Some nasty tropical weather is apparently coming up here to die and fighting that wind taxed the hell out of my trollin’ motor battery, not to mention making dry fly fishing more challenging at times. But I was determined to fish the three weight at least once this year so I set out, working along the windward bank, and had a ball. A 14" cold water brookie on this rod feels like a monster and before the first lap of the pond I was lucky enough to catch a couple of biguns to go with as many shorts. Kept working a dry fly along the shore line on a second lap catching the odd fish, ’til the rising wind pushed me into the clutches of The Dark Side and I took to trolling the deep middle with the supersinker. In short order – three passes over the really deep spot in the pond – I had caught a matched pair of slabby females and one precocious male short that was colored up like he meant business *this* year… Right about noon, feeling nicely toasted by rays, wind, and whatever, I pulled out and headed over to my first favorite little brookie pond and had lunch while the battery charged up. The wind had risen well beyond the 3 weight so I was down to the dry and wet fives. All afternoon I was looking for that "just barely legal" fish to boink and consume In The Name Of Tim. I fished the hell out of that pond with dry fly and streamer until near dark battling wind and white caps and wishing I had a dagger board clamped up alongside the bow. I did catch a half dozen fish before dark, but all were either undersized or honestly just too big – this close to spawning season I just can’t whack a big ol’ cow brookie or her old man (that’s *my* principle and I won’t be moved by some confused BassMaster wannabee out in Colorado . Still, felt like fish for dinner, so at dark as I drove back to my cabin I threw a reach cast into the little grocery in beautiful downtown Franconia and pulled out some Kipper snacks, smoked oysters, real cheddar cheese, and some gnarly bread that the local hippy bakery up here supplies to the store. And some *excellent*  Tuckerman Pale Ale, brewed by Kirsten and Nik at Tuckerman Brewing Company in Conway. www.tuckermanbrewing.com Just one of the *many* New England brews that would kick that pommy Sleeman’s ass back to Saskatoon Hoping to meet up with Dave "Flyfish" Bottom in the morning on the Magalloway. It looks pretty grim on weather.com… /daytripper  ("Mmmmmm….Kipper snacks!"

Response:

Question:

I’m just trying to figure out where there’s *any* flyfishing near the Frying Pan river. I lived there for 15 years and all I ever saw was a liquid golf course. — TBone Walker The Halfordian Golfer

Response:

The Green through Wyoming has far fewer fish per mile but the fishery is much more wild and in many stretches there are very few anglers.

I would humbly suggest a copy of the book "A River No More" so you can appreciate fully your understatement. Your pal, — TBone Walker The Halfordian Golfer

Response:

I’m just trying to figure out where there’s *any* flyfishing near the Frying Pan river. I lived there for 15 years and all I ever saw was a liquid golf course.

Liquid Golf Course, eh?  I suppose to each is own!  I admit I was never crazy about fishing the Frying Pan right at the dam.  You almost spend more time cleaning up trash than working the river.  Some good size fish that have been hooked to death.  But then again any tailwater that has such a limited flow will exhibit such problems to the fish.  The Taylor, Frying Pan, Williams Fork, and the South Platte all come to mind.   Let’s not forget the great opportunities Colorado offers for the fly fisherman.  So many fisherman drive past some incredible freestone rivers to get to what some call the Disney Parks of fly fishing.  But to each is own and who am I to judge?  I fished as many rivers as possible and I enjoyed the unique view each one had to offer. A liquid gold course to one guy is a dream vacation to another… — remove all x’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

Response:

A liquid gold course to one guy is a dream vacation to another…

That, my friend, was a ‘precious’ misspelling. — A Cash Flow Runs Through It

Response:

A liquid gold course to one guy is a dream vacation to another… That, my friend, was a ‘precious’ misspelling.

Very metallic to say the least. — remove all x’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

Response:

Willi would have us believe: The tailwater section below Flaming Gorge is a "destination" fishing area. Many fish per mile, large fish, but lots of people. The Green through [some godforsaken wilderness] has far fewer fish per

mile but the fishery is much more wild and in many stretches there are very few anglers.

The Flaming Gorge section of the Green is the best part of the river and that’s where Everyone should go. There are other parts of the Green that you’ll hear (tormented) people discuss once in a while, but all the fish are long gone. A bunch of white bastards showed up from Montana and loaded them into ice chests and hauled them away in their pickup trucks. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

Response:

The Flaming Gorge section of the Green is the best part of the river and that’s where Everyone should go. There are other parts of the Green that you’ll hear (tormented) people discuss once in a while, but all the fish are long gone. A bunch of white bastards showed up from Montana and loaded them into ice chests and hauled them away in their pickup trucks.

Rusty,   Information just in the nick of time.  I was planning on going to those "other parts" but, now that I know there are no fish there, I’ll go to the Flaming Gorge section instead:) Snoop —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

That section of the gorge supports boating, does it not? I have a 20′ whaler I want to boat with, camp. cruise..etc.. is it possible to camp this section, and hike to the good fly spots?….How far away would you estimate the loading ramps & parking lot for trailers to be? thanx for info… richard colorado – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Flaming Gorge section of the Green is the best part of the river and that’s where Everyone should go. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Willi would have us believe: The tailwater section below Flaming Gorge is a "destination" fishing area. Many fish per mile, large fish, but lots of people. The Green through [some godforsaken wilderness] has far fewer fish per mile but the fishery is much more wild and in many stretches there are very few anglers. The Flaming Gorge section of the Green is the best part of the river and that’s where Everyone should go. There are other parts of the Green that you’ll hear (tormented) people discuss once in a while, but all the fish are long gone. A bunch of white bastards showed up from Montana and loaded them into ice chests and hauled them away in their pickup trucks. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

Absofragginlutely.  Once you cross into Wyoming, there is narry a fish to be seen in the Green. Craig A. Gullixson National Solar Observatory/Sac. Peak    PHONE: (505) 434-7065 Sunspot, NM 88349 USA                   FAX: (505) 434-7029

Response:

That section of the gorge supports boating, does it not? I have a 20′ whaler I want to boat with, camp. cruise..etc.. is it possible to camp this section, and hike to the good fly spots?….How far away would you estimate the loading ramps & parking lot for trailers to be?

I don’t know what a 20 foot whaler is but it sounds like it would be overkill on the river. There is alot of floating done on the river in drift boats, rafts and even some bellyboats. There are several campgrounds in the area but I believe that in that section of the river, camping is only allowed in the designated campgrounds. There are easy trails up and down the river. Willi

Response:

is the section you are referring to "below the dam" or "above the dam" ? the 20′ whaler is a pretty big, heavy boat…not for small to med streams…more lakes & large rivers…(& ocean).. thanx.. richard colorado – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That section of the gorge supports boating, does it not? I have a 20′ whaler I want to boat with, camp. cruise..etc.. is it possible to camp this section, and hike to the good fly spots?….How far away would you estimate the loading ramps & parking lot for trailers to be? I don’t know what a 20 foot whaler is but it sounds like it would be overkill on the river. There is alot of floating done on the river in drift boats, rafts and even some bellyboats. There are several campgrounds in the area but I believe that in that section of the river, camping is only allowed in the designated campgrounds. There are easy trails up and down the river. Willi

Response:

is the section you are referring to "below the dam" or "above the dam" ?

Below the dam. You like Cheeseman, so I think you’d really like the fishing there. Plentiful, big fish that you can usually sight fish. I’ve only fished it once and that was late Fall. I was able to get water to myself. From what I understand, it’s not as crowded as Cheeseman but close, especially during prime time. Hatches are much more varied than Cheeseman. The canyon is quite scenic and there quite a few miles of "quality" water. Willi

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey group just a friendly question, I will be driving from Klamath Falls Oregon to Colorado Springs Colorado in late May and have several days to fish in route. Where would you fish? I would suggest a stop at the Green River and then the Glenwood Springs area where you could fish the Frying Pan and Roaring Fork. And in your last post you were commenting that the Bighorn wasn’t so bad…. no wonder. Not sure I follow you…  I wouldn’t drive from Klamath Falls to Colorado Springs via the Bighorn. You commented on the crowds not being too bad on the Bighorn. Then you picked what are probably the two most heavilly fished rivers between Klamath Falls and Colorado Springs for the guy to fish.

Well I didn’t suggest the South Platte!  That would rank in the top 3, for sure.  I also didn’t hot spot some other quality areas that fish really well that time of year.  A couple of spots in Utah and a number of areas in Colorado. The Arkansas and Eagle are most likely blown out during that period of time, so suggesting those rivers would be pointless.  The Raddy, Poudre, and Big T, might also suffer from runoff problemos. What else?  Well he could make a trip over to the Taylor River, the Yampa below Stagecoach reservoir, and a final stop at the Williams Fork and/or Blue River.  Steamboat would be beautiful in late May and worth a night of relaxation. He could also take the very southern route and hit Lee’s Ferry and the San Juan!  Two great tailwaters.  The San Juan might have a good flow during late May, but that of course depends upon the final snowpack which isn’t looking so hot in that area right now.  Durango would make a fine stop for a night.  The Animas in Durango is a great fishery, but once again that May runoff could be a problemo. Want to stay north of 40 Lat?  OK.  Try the Henry’s Fork, Snake, Beaverhead, Missouri, or the BIGHORN!  Heck, If I have a drift boat by then(doubtful) I will even take you down the river!  We could split the rental on drift boat if you would like.  $100 a day.  Drop south on I25/I90 and hit Grey Reef and the Miracle Mile before you reach the metro area cooridor from Ft Collins to Pueblo. So many hatches, so many rivers, and such little time! — remove all x’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

Response:

thanx for the info…i’ll get a map and check it out… richard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – is the section you are referring to "below the dam" or "above the dam" ? Below the dam. You like Cheeseman, so I think you’d really like the fishing there. Plentiful, big fish that you can usually sight fish. I’ve only fished it once and that was late Fall. I was able to get water to myself. From what I understand, it’s not as crowded as Cheeseman but close, especially during prime time. Hatches are much more varied than Cheeseman. The canyon is quite scenic and there quite a few miles of "quality" water. Willi

Response:

Hey group just a friendly question, I will be driving from Klamath Falls Oregon to Colorado Springs Colorado in late May and have several days to fish in route. Where would you fish? I would suggest a stop at the Green River and then the Glenwood Springs area where you could fish the Frying Pan and Roaring Fork. And in your last post you were commenting that the Bighorn wasn’t so bad…. no wonder. Not sure I follow you…  I wouldn’t drive from Klamath Falls to Colorado Springs via the Bighorn.

You commented on the crowds not being too bad on the Bighorn. Then you picked what are probably the two most heavilly fished rivers between Klamath Falls and Colorado Springs for the guy to fish. Willi

Response:

Hey group just a friendly question, I will be driving from Klamath Falls Oregon to Colorado Springs Colorado in late May and have several days to fish in route. Where would you fish?

In the water, of course. /daytripper (This ain’t no shuttle launch.  ;-)

Response:

Hey group just a friendly question, I will be driving from Klamath Falls Oregon to Colorado Springs Colorado in late May and have several days to fish in route. Where would you fish? I would suggest a stop at the Green River and then the Glenwood Springs area where you could fish the Frying Pan and Roaring Fork. And in your last post you were commenting that the Bighorn wasn’t so bad…. no wonder.

Not sure I follow you…  I wouldn’t drive from Klamath Falls to Colorado Springs via the Bighorn.   — remove all x’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

Response:

what part/or location is good on the green river? anyone fished up near flaming gorge nat’l park? good fishing up that way? thanx… richard colorado

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey group just a friendly question, I will be driving from Klamath Falls Oregon to Colorado Springs Colorado in late May and have several days to fish in route. Where would you fish? I would suggest a stop at the Green River and then the Glenwood Springs area where you could fish the Frying Pan and Roaring Fork. Paul — remove all x’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

Response:

what part/or location is good on the green river? anyone fished up near flaming gorge nat’l park? good fishing up that way?

Depends on what you call good fishing: The tailwater section below Flaming Gorge is a "destination" fishing area. Many fish per mile, large fish, but lots of people. The Green through Wyoming has far fewer fish per mile but the fishery is much more wild and in many stretches there are very few anglers. Willi

Response:

Hey group just a friendly question, I will be driving from Klamath Falls Oregon to Colorado Springs Colorado in late May and have several days to fish in route. Where would you fish?

I would suggest a stop at the Green River and then the Glenwood Springs area where you could fish the Frying Pan and Roaring Fork. Paul — remove all x’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

Response:

Hey group just a friendly question, I will be driving from Klamath Falls Oregon to Colorado Springs Colorado in late May and have several days to fish in route. Where would you fish?

One more thing!  Be aware of runoff in late May!  Depending upon the final snowpack, nearly all the non-tailwater fisheries will be blown out. Paul — remove all x’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

Response:

Hey group just a friendly question, I will be driving from Klamath Falls Oregon to Colorado Springs Colorado in late May and have several days to fish in route. Where would you fish? I would suggest a stop at the Green River and then the Glenwood Springs area where you could fish the Frying Pan and Roaring Fork.

And in your last post you were commenting that the Bighorn wasn’t so bad…. no wonder. Willi

Response:

Hey group just a friendly question, I will be driving from Klamath Falls Oregon to Colorado Springs Colorado in late May and have several days to fish in route. Where would you fish?

Response:

Question:

BTW Dave you have obviously forgotten the true king of sportfish the steelhead. I’ll take their tail walking antics and consecutive 100 yard screaming runs anyday Stevo the braggart Have you hooked a chinook?

Yup, up to 45 lbs. (unfortunately I have yet to get a real big one), but they rarely break the surface, preferring to sulk deep and do their running near the bottom. Unbelievable power though. Of  the species I’ve caught ( I admit to being an Atlantic virgin), steelhead are the most unpredictable, one second they are sulking deep, the next the line is slack and they are doing five or six consecutive jumps and then off for another long run right on the surface. unbelievable! Stevo the experienced (yah right)

Response:

Now why would those in the east want to stock those damn silly, wimp western salmon that only procreate once then leave their rotting, stinking carcasses in the water, when they have their own robust salmon that can procreate many times? Chris Richer (east of the flat spot) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW Dave, being a naive westerner (we don’t get out much) which landlocked "introduced from the great waters of British Columbia" species are we talking about? Stevo the wanderer (NOT) <g Dave L.

Response:

Steve Cooper: <<BTW Dave, being a naive westerner (we don’t get out much) which landlocked "introduced from the great waters of British Columbia" species are we talking about? Ouananiche.  The Atlantic Salmon that is land-locked.  It’s also known as the Lake Salmon.  The largest I have caught was about 7 pounds, but I have heard of much bigger fish, especially in Labrador and Quebec.  It didn’t come from BC either.  <g Dave LaCourse

Response:

Yup, up to 45 lbs. (unfortunately I have yet to get a real big one), but they rarely break the surface, preferring to sulk deep and do their running near the bottom. Unbelievable power though.

I’ve seen plenty of hooked chinook jump & splash.  Saw a 20+ lber come about 3 feet out of the water last Thursday on the Pere Marquette in Michigan.  Maybe the fish here are different.  They tend to darken up really quick.  I’ve seen lots of photos of silver fish caught out of western rivers. Mu

Response:

Ouananiche.  The Atlantic Salmon that is land-locked.  It’s also known as the Lake Salmon.  The largest I have caught was about 7 pounds, but I have heard of much bigger fish, especially in Labrador and Quebec.  It didn’t come from BC either.  <g

Is that the Sebago Lake strain?  Also, what’s a Sunapee? Mu

Response:

Mu Young: <<Is that the Sebago Lake strain?  Also, what’s a Sunapee? No.  Not coming out of lakes/rivers in Labrador! I believe the Sunapee is actually a land-locked Arctic Char (Salvelinus alpinus).  It’s called the Blueback Trout in some Maine waters. Dave

Response:

Yup, up to 45 lbs. (unfortunately I have yet to get a real big one), but they rarely break the surface, preferring to sulk deep and do their running near the bottom. Unbelievable power though. I’ve seen plenty of hooked chinook jump & splash.  Saw a 20+ lber come about 3 feet out of the water last Thursday on the Pere Marquette in Michigan.  Maybe the fish here are different.  They tend to darken up really quick.  I’ve seen lots of photos of silver fish caught out of western rivers. Mu

  That’s only because its alot easier to jump out of your waters and tailwalk, being so full of chemicals and all <g…. Hey look on the bright side another 10 years or so and you won’t even need a boat to go fishing on the "lakes" "lake michigan…..too thick to drink, too thin to plow" Stevo the troller

Response:

Steve Cooper: <<BTW Dave, being a naive westerner (we don’t get out much) which landlocked "introduced from the great waters of British Columbia" species are we talking about? Ouananiche.  The Atlantic Salmon that is land-locked.  It’s also known as the Lake Salmon.

Oh you mean those big trout (genus Salmo) The largest I have caught was about 7 pounds, but I have heard of much bigger fish, especially in Labrador and Quebec.  It didn’t come from BC either.  <g Dave LaCourse

  Cheers

Response:

Steve Cooper: <<Oh you mean those big trout (genus Salmo) Yep!  One and the same.  <g

Response:

Steve Cooper: <<Oh you mean those big trout (genus Salmo) Yep!  One and the same.  <g

Ah hell before you know it I’ll be able to catch those on the West coast as well. Just let our salmon farms screw up and have a few more large escapements like the 30,000 yearlings that just escaped a Port McNiel farm, or the 60,000 smolts involuntarily released in Washington’s Puget Sound, and we may have to beat these things off our lines just to get at a good natural wild salmon.

Response:

BTW Dave you have obviously forgotten the true king of sportfish the steelhead. I’ll take their tail walking antics and consecutive 100 yard screaming runs anyday Stevo the braggart

Have you hooked a chinook? Ian Scott http://flyfishing.about.com/

Response:

Have you hooked a chinook?

No, but I did once know a guy who tried to drown a brown, get nookie brom a brookie, and pass a bass!

Response:

I did’nt forget them.  It was about Atlantic salmon, "King of the Sportfish".  I agree about steelies.  They are one of the best (of course)! Land locked salmon are also right up there.  Although they don’t get too big in Maine, they are a ball to watch tail walking. (I hope this doesn’t start a thread:  *MY* fish is better’n your fish!

But,… but,… but…. my fish IS better than your fish…… and my dad can so nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah nyah. BTW Dave, being a naive westerner (we don’t get out much) which landlocked "introduced from the great waters of British Columbia" species are we talking about? Stevo the wanderer (NOT) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <g Dave L.

Response:

Sheldonn Michael Pardy writes: <<If anyone wants some real flyfishing fun, come to Newfoundland, and go for some of our Atlantic salmon. These fish have a lot of fight, and I once had one fighting for one and a half hours. 10 whopping pounds!!! That beats bass any day. Uhhhhhh, you fought a 10 pound fish for 1 1/2 hours?  What ever happened to the old rule of a pound a minute?  I realize Atlantic Salmon are the fighters of all time, but an hour and a half.  Seems exceedingly long, sir.  I will agree about the bass, however. Dave L.

 Dave Not just exceedingly long, but lethal as well. Although Atlantics are well known for both their fighting prowess and tenacity towards survival, this fish if released was probably dead shortly thereafter. The lactic acid buildup in the muscular tissues (remember that salmonids are basically on BIG muscle) would likely have been lethal. Nothing to be particularly of, Sheldon. BTW Dave you have obviously forgotten the true king of sportfish the steelhead. I’ll take their tail walking antics and consecutive 100 yard screaming runs anyday Stevo the braggart

Response:

1.5 hours? You are full of shit. Next time you take an assignment as a flack, learn how to lie creditably. Dave

Response:

Steve Cooper: <<BTW Dave you have obviously forgotten the true king of sportfish the steelhead. I’ll take their tail walking antics and consecutive 100 yard screaming runs anyday I did’nt forget them.  It was about Atlantic salmon, "King of the Sportfish".  I agree about steelies.  They are one of the best (of course)! Land locked salmon are also right up there.  Although they don’t get too big in Maine, they are a ball to watch tail walking.   (I hope this doesn’t start a thread:  *MY* fish is better’n your fish! <g Dave L.

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David Snedeker, the scribe, writes: <<1.5 hours? You are full of shit. Next time you take an assignment as a flack, learn how to lie creditably. ROFL.  Don’t mix your words, David.  Tell the fool *exactly* what you think of him.  That’s what I love about you, David; you are about as subtle as a nuclear weapon.  <g Dave L. (the calm Dave)  d;0)

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One and a half hours to land a ten pound fish???  I think, perhaps, that you need a bit heavier outfit.  If you want to be in a position to release salmon and steelhead in some degree of health, you have to get them in and released in a lot less time.  I suspect that your ten pound Atlantic Salmon was one that you kept.  If not, I doubt if he lived very long after being released. Barry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If anyone wants some real flyfishing fun, come to Newfoundland, and go for some of our Atlantic salmon. These fish have a lot of fight, and I once had one fighting for one and a half hours. 10 whopping pounds!!! That beats bass any day.

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        If anyone wants some real flyfishing fun, come to Newfoundland, and go for some of our Atlantic salmon. These fish have a lot of fight, and I once had one fighting for one and a half hours. 10 whopping pounds!!! That beats bass any day.

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Sheldon, Sounds like fun. When is the best time to go? Bob Elliott, Rochester, NY – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If anyone wants some real flyfishing fun, come to Newfoundland, and go for some of our Atlantic salmon. These fish have a lot of fight, and I once had one fighting for one and a half hours. 10 whopping pounds!!! That beats bass any day.

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        If anyone wants some real flyfishing fun, come to Newfoundland, and go for some of our Atlantic salmon. …

I’d love to. When the provincial government repeals those pernicious guide laws I’ll drop a dime in Newfoundland and Labrador too. Until then, I won’t fish there. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 3 – Tar Heels 1

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Hey, Something fishy here.  If you took that long to land a little 10 pounder, you were abusing the fish and probably harming its chances of survival (assuming that you released it). Regards, Yuji Sakuma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         If anyone wants some real flyfishing fun, come to Newfoundland, and go for some of our Atlantic salmon. These fish have a lot of fight, and I once had one fighting for one and a half hours. 10 whopping pounds!!! That beats bass any day.

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Sheldonn Michael Pardy writes:

<<If anyone wants some real flyfishing fun, come to Newfoundland, and go for some of our Atlantic salmon. These fish have a lot of fight, and I once had one fighting for one and a half hours. 10 whopping pounds!!! That beats bass any day. Uhhhhhh, you fought a 10 pound fish for 1 1/2 hours?  What ever happened to the old rule of a pound a minute?  I realize Atlantic Salmon are the fighters of all time, but an hour and a half.  Seems exceedingly long, sir.  I will agree about the bass, however. Dave L.

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Response:

<a bunch of stuff he should have proof read first!!!!! Not just exceedingly long, but lethal as well. Although Atlantics are well known for both their fighting prowess and tenacity towards survival, this fish if released was probably dead shortly thereafter. The lactic acid buildup in the muscular tissues (remember that salmonids are basically on

<<<that should be ONE not on BIG muscle) would likely have been lethal. Nothing to be particularly of, Sheldon.

That should be "not particularly PROUD of, Sheldon" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW Dave you have obviously forgotten the true king of sportfish the steelhead. I’ll take their tail walking antics and consecutive 100 yard screaming runs anyday Stevo the braggart

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Question:

ideal stream for a last minute fish as you are heading home (once, rachel waited in our packed car for 20 minutes while i had a "last fish" on our way home),

So the common thread here in your recent posts is that you are an expert at testing the patience of women  Hope Walt wasn’t beaten too severely for spending time with you instead of his lady. – Mu

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        on day 2, i explored some of the watauga county backroads, looking for new and remote streams, and found a couple areas i’ll try to convince walt to sample with me.  walt is an extraordinarily good fishing companion and has an ability to fish many of the tough areas…an ability i lack. one of the back roads intersected with the blue ridge parkway, which runs along a ridge above the valley in which my cabin sits.  i was close to a stream i literally fell into some years.  it runs beside the parkway at about 3000 feet elevation, but is about 30 to 50 feet below the parkway.  there are some large pull-offs and parking areas beside the road, so it’s not a hidden location by any means.  i discovered it years ago on the way from upper boone’s fork, frustrated with all the hikers and crowds in and around that stream, on the last day of a trip. determined to fish someplace new, but without much time to do so, i stopped, geared up, and proceeded to fall/trip/butt-bump/slide down a steep bank to within 10 feet of the stream.  rod unbroken, but spirit bent, i fished about 100 yards of a lovely stream, even with the sounds of traffic on the blue ridge parkway overhead.  it consisted of small holding or pocket waters with a nice gradient allowing adequate cover for a blundering buffoon like me to sneak up and float a dry fly.  i was stunned when i caught a 6 inch brook trout. since that trip, i have fished the stream on numerous occasions and always caught a brookie.  on this trip, in the 100 yards i usually fish, i caught 5 of the beauties.  i had always assumed it was necessary to find the remotest and highest locations in the blue ridge watersheds to catch wild brookies…but here they are in a stream beside the parkway, near privately owned meadows, and easily accessed by the general public in just a brief walk (or tumble) down a bank.  this is an ideal stream for a last minute fish as you are heading home (once, rachel waited in our packed car for 20 minutes while i had a "last fish" on our way home), or as an appetizer as you are heading for other waters.  it’s not on the delorme and as best i can tell is not stocked at all…i’ve never caught a stocked fish in it.           day 3, a bit hung over from last evening’s libations and with rainy weather coming in, i fished the stream in front of my cabin.  although it has some trout in it (i’ve caught a 10 inch rainbow and a 12 inch brown, and hooked and brought to hand a 20 inch brown with the most fearsome lower hook-jaw i’ve seen on ole salmo, it’s not good trout water in my area of the stream.  upstream about a mile, and for almost 6 miles, it’s a hatchery supported stream and gets a lot of pressure from spin fishers, especially the week after the hatchery trucks come through.  anyway, i took my 7′6" 4/5 weight St.Croix and fished about a mile with a black wooly bugger.  the stream holds a bunch of smallmouth bass and bluegill/redeye/bream(?)- panfish -, and i spent 4 hours disengaging the hook from copious quantities of the panfish and about 10 smallies, with the largest being 11 inches.  in some of the deeper pools, i saw some smallmouth i know were larger than 14 inches.  anyway, a nice day’s fishing within walking distance of the cabin and the comforts of she who must be obeyed. jeff

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Question:

Mary Malmros said… Yeah, but you get other things with a folder, some of which are real important to those of us with fourth-floor walkup apartments, no storage space, and frequent urges to "impulse kayak" on the way home from work Like me!  A folder might be the right solution for me; the problem is, where can you try ‘em out?  I’m sure not gonna sink $3500 into something without a lot of paddling and experimentation.

I can certainly see the portability part, but I’m not too sure about the "impulse" part, having watched someone put one together at the put-in (and not finish by the time I lost sight of her as I paddled away).  Now that was a brand-new Feathercraft, so maybe a little break-in (and experience) would help a lot. -Wayne  Foster-Miller, Inc.        ***Disclaimed***          781-684-4228

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 … I would really hesitate to suggest to someone that was looking for their first kayak to consider a Klepper/Feathercraft for one reason.  They’re expensive.  An Aerius II lists for almost $3500.  Suggesting that someone spend that kind of money for a first boat is absurd when there are boats available at half the price that would meet a beginners needs.   Very few beginning kayakers would need a boat that could be paddled/sailed across the Atlantic.

Of course, you needn’t start with a Klepper; the Folbot Aleut is closer to $1200, and it’s a superb boat. Great boats, great beginner’s boats, and with care they’ll last a lifetime. Get a copy of Ralph Diaz’ book, subscribe to his newsletter and see my web page for more details: http://www.mich.com/~mje/kayak.html — mike

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Hi Mary, I dont know what area of the country you live in, but you need to find a dealer near water. I realize this isnt as easy as it sounds, but in central wisconsin I was able to test paddle a Feathercraft K-1, K-Light, Khatsalano, and a single and double Klepper.   I eventually bought a used Klepper Aerius 1 in very good condition for about $1100 from the Klepper dealer, who was very patient with me (and who has been very helpfull since…. His name is on the shop’s sign too!).   It takes less then 20 min. from bag to the water for my boat, so the after work impules paddling is very do-able.   The boat isnt a speed demon, but it is a gas in rough water.   I realize that I am straying from the point of the original post, though the price I got my folder for wouldnt be out of line for a first boat either, come think of it.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A lot of people have said to try before buying.  There must be big differences in  kayaks. Don’t forget the folding kayak either, which, arguably, may be the best real sea kayak around.  Klepper has been in business for over 90 years (something the plastic and fiberglass guys can’t even comprehend) and fields a kayak (Aerius II) that was paddled/sailed solo across the Atlantic back in 1954 (another thing the hardshell guys can’t comprehend).  Feathercraft, Folbot and others are out there too. I would really hesitate to suggest to someone that was looking for their first kayak to consider a Klepper/Feathercraft for one reason.  They’re expensive.  An Aerius II lists for almost $3500.  Suggesting that someone spend that kind of money for a first boat is absurd when there are boats available at half the price that would meet a beginners needs.   Yeah, but you get other things with a folder, some of which are real important to those of us with fourth-floor walkup apartments, no storage space, and frequent urges to "impulse kayak" on the way home from work Like me!  A folder might be the right solution for me; the problem is, where can you try ‘em out?  I’m sure not gonna sink $3500 into something without a lot of paddling and experimentation.

I agree that there are some definate advantages for a folding kayak. As far as portability they’re hard to beat (although I wouldn’t mind having a three piece hardshell like the Nordkapp either) but as far as a "beginners" boat goes I just can’t see suggesting something that is two to three times as expensive as someting that will suit most beginners needs. I used to see the same thing all the time in the flyfishing newsgroup. Someone would come on asking for recommendations for a flyrod and reel for a beginner and they’d be met with suggestions for a Scott, Winston, Thomas & Thomas, rods that run $350-$500.  I’ve been flyfishing for over 25 years and probably get more use out of my $100 Redington than any of my seven other flyrods.  Someone that is entering a hobby for the first time shouldn’t, IMHO, be spending top of the line prices unless they have money to burn.   John Fereira

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A lot of people have said to try before buying.  There must be big differences in  kayaks. Don’t forget the folding kayak either, which, arguably, may be the best real sea kayak around.  Klepper has been in business for over 90 years (something the plastic and fiberglass guys can’t even comprehend) and fields a kayak (Aerius II) that was paddled/sailed solo across the Atlantic back in 1954 (another thing the hardshell guys can’t comprehend).  Feathercraft, Folbot and others are out there too. I would really hesitate to suggest to someone that was looking for their first kayak to consider a Klepper/Feathercraft for one reason.  They’re expensive.  An Aerius II lists for almost $3500.  Suggesting that someone spend that kind of money for a first boat is absurd when there are boats available at half the price that would meet a beginners needs.  

Yeah, but you get other things with a folder, some of which are real important to those of us with fourth-floor walkup apartments, no storage space, and frequent urges to "impulse kayak" on the way home from work Like me!  A folder might be the right solution for me; the problem is, where can you try ‘em out?  I’m sure not gonna sink $3500 into something without a lot of paddling and experimentation. — ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::         "I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart                 for the joys of the multitude"

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A lot of people have said to try before buying.  There must be big differences in  kayaks. Don’t forget the folding kayak either, which, arguably, may be the best real sea kayak around.  Klepper has been in business for over 90 years (something the plastic and fiberglass guys can’t even comprehend) and fields a kayak (Aerius II) that was paddled/sailed solo across the Atlantic back in 1954 (another thing the hardshell guys can’t comprehend).  Feathercraft, Folbot and others are out there too.

I would really hesitate to suggest to someone that was looking for their first kayak to consider a Klepper/Feathercraft for one reason.  They’re expensive.  An Aerius II lists for almost $3500.  Suggesting that someone spend that kind of money for a first boat is absurd when there are boats available at half the price that would meet a beginners needs.   Very few beginning kayakers would need a boat that could be paddled/sailed across the Atlantic. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sea or touring kayak is what I’m looking for.  I’m trying  to learn as much as I can before buying..  I use to do a lot of canoeing when I was younger. Kayaks look like they would be a lot of fun.. They’re an enormous amount of fun, but anyone’s choice of fave boat — or manufacturer — is going to be based on the type of paddler they are and the type of paddling they do.   I’m going to say something that may be a little controversial.  I’ve been reading rbp for about nine months now, and it seems to me that I’ve seen a lot of barely-used "entry-level" boats for sale, on this and other forums.  Now, I could be wrong…but that makes me wonder if a lot of people are buying in a hurry, maybe talking themselves into buying something because they get a good price on a package, and quickly outgrowing that first boat (or finding out, as they spend more time paddling, that it is a good boat but really not suited for the type of paddling they want to do).  

You won’t get any argument from me.  I think part of the reason stems from the idea that the only thing "entry level" about a lot of those boats for sale are the prices.  Sea kayaking seems to have an identity crisis.  It seems that everything from a Perception Keowee to a VCP Nordkapp is classified as a "sea kayak".  There seems to be a range of boats, typically between 13-15′ in length, usually wider than 24" with lots of initial stabilty that (also partially because of their price) are thought of as "entry level" boats.  In my opinion, this class of boats are designed for paddling conditions more so than for beginners.  In fact, I have found that the characteristics of this class does more to keep it’s paddlers at an "entry level" more than anything.  They’re good boats if you want something that is going to be very stable for taking pictures and don’t plan on paddling in rough conditions.  If you want something that is going to allow one to become proficient in rough conditions their stability is going to restrict ones ability to improve. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

Response:

A lot of people have said to try before buying.  There must be big differences in  kayaks.

Don’t forget the folding kayak either, which, arguably, may be the best real sea kayak around.  Klepper has been in business for over 90 years (something the plastic and fiberglass guys can’t even comprehend) and fields a kayak (Aerius II) that was paddled/sailed solo across the Atlantic back in 1954 (another thing the hardshell guys can’t comprehend).  Feathercraft, Folbot and others are out there too.

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Al Bowers said… Something else to consider, the paddle is more important to enjoyment than even the boat is.  If you have to scrimp a bit on the boat for a top notch paddle, that’s a good idea…

I agree.  A boat can be nice or not so great, but the paddle can make or break the whole experience. We’re going to try a boat for my wife this weekend (maybe).  She’s tried a couple of boats, and I think we’re getting close.  We’re down to the Seda Swift, Perception Sea Lion, and the Perception Shadow…

I didn’t like the Sea Lion at all, personally (and this was the boat I thought I would like).  The deck was too high, the cockpit absolutely huge (I’m 5′10", 175 lbs), and I had a heck of a time making it move.  I did like the Shadow, which was tight and quick, even though (or perhaps partially because) it was too small for me.   Don’t know the Seda Swift. I’m getting ready to build a couple of Pygmy Arctic Terns for my wife and myself. -Wayne  Foster-Miller, Inc.        ***Disclaimed***          781-684-4228

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Erie Pa (Lake Erie) There is a place nearby that rents them.  I have to wate for the water to worm up a bit.  A lot of people have said to try before buying.  There must be big differences in  kayaks.

The more you paddle the better you’ll be able to detect the differences. I realize that it’s a bit of a drive but a friend of mine is opening up a shop in Ithaca, NY.  I’m helping him move some of his boats in this weekend (and will be storing mine there as well since it’s right on the water).  If you ever get over this way let me know.  He’s about about 15 different boats that you could try.  Watch of demo days and symposiums. They’re a great way to try out a variety of boats. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

Response:

Bill Zimmerman said…  A lot of people have said to try before buying.  There must be big differences in  kayaks. Oh, yeah!  If you start in basic ignorance, then

Good advice to try before you buy.  Or at least have a very good idea at what you want to do.  Even within the "touring" or "sea kayak" genre there is considerable variation; expeditions boats, mid-line touring boats, performance boats, race boats, etc, plus combinations of the above eg: performance expedition boats… 1) Make a list of boats to look at (helped along here, of course), 2) Find out the supposed characteristics of each, 3) Pick the one you think you’ll end up liking, and 4) Go try them all out,

Make a list of the things you want to do and how much time you’ll be doing them.  Say you want to do a BIG trip, like Bowron or the Inside Passage (Vancouver to Alaska), but most of your trips will be short day trips.  then you need a boat that might just work on the long trip, but is biased towards the daytripper type boat. I think your (or anyone else’s) initial guess is usually wrong.  If it isn’t wrong, congratuations, you proved you were right and will be happier with the boat knowing it was the right choice.   You gotta try the boats.  You should check Deja News for recent threads on sea kayak selection, since this isn’t a new subject around here.

Having built 5 boats, and buying 3 over a period of 26 years, when I wanted a high performance boat I had a pretty good idea of _exactly_ what I wanted.  No frills, high performance, to be used for exercise, fast day touring, and the occasional long trip.  I bought a Seda Glider and a Werner Pegasus wing paddle; and I couldn’t be happier with them.  It’s an awesome combination that will exceed my abilities for as long as I continue to paddle. Something else to consider, the paddle is more important to enjoyment than even the boat is.  If you have to scrimp a bit on the boat for a top notch paddle, that’s a good idea.  Try different paddles as well, higher end if you can.  Then after you start to form some opinions on what you like and don’t like, then start trying your desired paddle and boat to see if you were right.  Then you’re REALLY ready to buy… We’re going to try a boat for my wife this weekend (maybe).  She’s tried a couple of boats, and I think we’re getting close.  We’re down to the Seda Swift, Perception Sea Lion, and the Perception Shadow… Al Bowers

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As for touring boats, I can tell you who isn’t the best. Valley Canoe Products. If anyone wants to hear the long version, email me.

Since I own a VCP boat and have been very happy with it I’d like to hear the long version.  If you don’t want to post it her you can send me email. I haven’t paddled the Skerray in plastic but I have glass version and have demo’d a Pintail, Anas Acuta,  and an Aquilla and liked them all.  I haven’t paddled one, and I realize they’re not for everyone, the Nordkapp remains one of the most popular designs in the world. I probably wouldn’t claim that they are the "best" boats but I would put VCP up near the top in terms of performance, ocean worthiness,  construction, and appointments.   The VCP hatch covers are practically an industry standard. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

Response:

Sea or touring kayak is what I’m looking for.  I’m trying  to learn as much as I can before buying..  I use to do a lot of canoeing when I was younger. Kayaks look like they would be a lot of fun.. Bill

If you’re looking for a durable tandem touring kayak I’d take a look at the Necky Amaruk.   Sea or touring kayaks come in a variety of materials.  The most inexpensive (and generally the most durable) are plastic or polyethelene kayaks.  Different vendors use different methods for constructing plastic boats.  Prijon generally seems to have the best plastic in the business but generally plastic boats are pretty indestructible.  They’re also heavier and slower than boats made with other materials. Fiberglass boats are lighter and their construction allows finer lines than you’ll find in a plastic boat.  The material is also stiffer and smoother which also contributes to speed.  The drawbacks are that they are more expensive and are less durable than plastic (although if you do damage a glass boat it’s easier to repair than plastic). Many models available in fiberglass are layed up with kevlar rather than fiberglass.  They have all the benefits of a fiberglass boat but are even lighter and are more durable.  They are also significantly more expensive. Wood kayaks seem to be becoming more and more popular.  There are a couple of major kit suppliers (Pygmy and Chesapeake Light Craft) that produce some fine kits that someone without prior woodworking skills can build using a stitch-n-glue technique.  For about the price of a plastic boat you can build a wood boat (actually fiberglass over wood) boat.  They’re lighter than almost all fiberglass and kevlar boats, have about the same durability as a glass boat.  They require a little more maintenance but can be repaired if damaged and of course require the time to build.  They are, however, some of the prettiest kayaks you’ll find on the water.  There are also a few kits and/or plans available for wood kayaks built using narrow strips.  They’re more work but can produce some gorgeous boats.   There aren’t that many around but some people are still building skin over frame boats. There are a couple of other materials worth mentioning.  There are a few companies that build "take apart" boats that use a frame with a waterproof fabric cover.  Klepper, Feathercraft, and Folbot are three such companies. These kayaks can be quite expensive but can’t be beat for portability (many will fold up into a backpack).  There are also some decent inflatable kayaks. You’ll even find some sea kayaks which use combinations of materials. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

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Bill Zimmerman said… Erie Pa (Lake Erie) There is a place nearby that rents them.  I have to wate for the water to worm up a bit.

    ^^^^ Still a big eel problem up there?  ;-)  A lot of people have said to try before buying.  There must be big differences in  kayaks.

Oh, yeah!  If you start in basic ignorance, then 1) Make a list of boats to look at (helped along here, of course), 2) Find out the supposed characteristics of each, 3) Pick the one you think you’ll end up liking, and 4) Go try them all out, I think your (or anyone else’s) initial guess is usually wrong.  If it isn’t wrong, congratuations, you proved you were right and will be happier with the boat knowing it was the right choice.   You gotta try the boats.  You should check Deja News for recent threads on sea kayak selection, since this isn’t a new subject around here. -Wayne  Foster-Miller, Inc.        ***Disclaimed***          781-684-4228

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As for touring boats, I can tell you who isn’t the best. Valley Canoe Products. If anyone wants to hear the long version, email me. Jeff

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Mary Malmros said… I’m going to say something that may be a little controversial.  I’ve been reading rbp for about nine months now, and it seems to me that I’ve seen a lot of barely-used "entry-level" boats for sale, on this and other forums.  Now, I could be wrong…but that makes me wonder if a lot of people are buying in a hurry, maybe talking themselves into buying something because they get a good price on a package, and quickly outgrowing that first boat (or finding out, as they spend more time paddling, that it is a good boat but really not suited for the type of paddling they want to do).  

I think that’s true in many cases, but I think there might also be a certain amount of the ‘exercise machine syndrome’, where someone is convinced kayaking’s for them, runs out and buys a boat (in many cases the wrong boat), and finds out the sport’s not for them.  A lot of people look at kayaking and get a funny look in their eye at the thought of how beautiful it must be out there.  Others look at it and think that it looks a lot like work.  A lot of the used boats are from people who got the look in their eye and _then_ found out it was a lot like work. -Wayne  Foster-Miller, Inc.        ***Disclaimed***          781-684-4228

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Sea or touring kayak is what I’m looking for.  I’m trying  to learn as much as I can before buying..  I use to do a lot of canoeing when I was younger. Kayaks look like they would be a lot of fun.. That’s a horrible question to ask. It depends on what you’re looking for.

It’s still a horrible question. Plastic or glass? Inland lake or open water? And so on, and so on. "Best" is relative, based on what you want to use it for and the conditions you want to use it in. "Best" can change with every stroke of the paddle. At your stage, the "best" you can hope for is "pretty good." There are an awful lot of touring boats out there that fall into the category of "pretty good." — Wes

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Erie Pa (Lake Erie) There is a place nearby that rents them.  I have to wate for the water to worm up a bit.  A lot of people have said to try before buying.  There must be big differences in  kayaks.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sea or touring kayak is what I’m looking for.  I’m trying  to learn as much as I can before buying..  I use to do a lot of canoeing when I was younger. Kayaks look like they would be a lot of fun.. They’re an enormous amount of fun, but anyone’s choice of fave boat — or manufacturer — is going to be based on the type of paddler they are and the type of paddling they do. I’m going to say something that may be a little controversial.  I’ve been reading rbp for about nine months now, and it seems to me that I’ve seen a lot of barely-used "entry-level" boats for sale, on this and other forums.  Now, I could be wrong…but that makes me wonder if a lot of people are buying in a hurry, maybe talking themselves into buying something because they get a good price on a package, and quickly outgrowing that first boat (or finding out, as they spend more time paddling, that it is a good boat but really not suited for the type of paddling they want to do). The nice thing about choosing a sea or touring kayak is that it’s not too hard to find liveries where you can try out a lot of different boats.  I think it’s worth the investment in time and rental fees. An inexpensive touring kayak might list for no more than a few hundred dollars, a really superior one could be close to ten times that, but whether it’s a little or a lot, it’s wasted money if it’s not the right thing for you.  I’ve paddled touring kayaks by Necky, Wilderness Systems, Current Designs, Perception, Walden, and others, but I’d want to paddle a lot more before making a purchase. Where are you located?  Perhaps someone can recommend a livery in your area where you can get some instruction and some paddling time. — :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: "I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart for the joys of the multitude"

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Sea or touring kayak is what I’m looking for.  I’m trying  to learn as much as I can before buying..  I use to do a lot of canoeing when I was younger. Kayaks look like they would be a lot of fun..

They’re an enormous amount of fun, but anyone’s choice of fave boat — or manufacturer — is going to be based on the type of paddler they are and the type of paddling they do.   I’m going to say something that may be a little controversial.  I’ve been reading rbp for about nine months now, and it seems to me that I’ve seen a lot of barely-used "entry-level" boats for sale, on this and other forums.  Now, I could be wrong…but that makes me wonder if a lot of people are buying in a hurry, maybe talking themselves into buying something because they get a good price on a package, and quickly outgrowing that first boat (or finding out, as they spend more time paddling, that it is a good boat but really not suited for the type of paddling they want to do).   The nice thing about choosing a sea or touring kayak is that it’s not too hard to find liveries where you can try out a lot of different boats.  I think it’s worth the investment in time and rental fees. An inexpensive touring kayak might list for no more than a few hundred dollars, a really superior one could be close to ten times that, but whether it’s a little or a lot, it’s wasted money if it’s not the right thing for you.  I’ve paddled touring kayaks by Necky, Wilderness Systems, Current Designs, Perception, Walden, and others, but I’d want to paddle a lot more before making a purchase. Where are you located?  Perhaps someone can recommend a livery in your area where you can get some instruction and some paddling time. — ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::         "I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart                 for the joys of the multitude"

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Who is the best kayak manufacture??

Response:

Who is the best kayak manufacture??

     You forgot the "r" on the end of that last word.      The best kayak manufacturer has got to be Nanook of the North. Splash

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That’s a horrible question to ask. It depends on what you’re looking for. Prijon probably has the most durable boats, while Riot has the most radical designs. Wavesport has great plastic and designs… etc. Not to mention, whitewater companies are completely different in this area than touring, slalom, and sea kayaks. Sam —    Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Who is the best kayak manufacture??

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Sea or touring kayak is what I’m looking for.  I’m trying  to learn as much as I can before buying..  I use to do a lot of canoeing when I was younger. Kayaks look like they would be a lot of fun.. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s a horrible question to ask. It depends on what you’re looking for. Prijon probably has the most durable boats, while Riot has the most radical designs. Wavesport has great plastic and designs… etc. Not to mention, whitewater companies are completely different in this area than touring, slalom, and sea kayaks. Sam —    Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool. Who is the best kayak manufacture??

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Question:

You won’t be mindin’ if we keep an eye on where the hole card comes from.  ;-)

hell no, i was going to get Honest Wayno’s Guide Service to do the dealing.  If you can’t trust an attorney, who can you trust? Personally, I was hoping one of Big John’s gals would handle the deal. About the fish, now I know why I’ve heard stories of you going through a crate of splitshot a season.  :)

don’t know ’bout ’shot…..you’d have to talk to Matt "egg-dredgin" McCray ’bout dat. Waldo, lost two wild brookies today….man I’m rusty.

Response:

This Clave thing presents a great opportunity for a human interest story for a FFing magazine. Here’s the concept. A bunch of crusty old flyfishers get together in NC. They have only two things in common: a love of flyfishing and an acquaintance through ROFF. These guys don’t know each other face-to-face, for the most part, but they are acquainted through years and years of give-and-take in a Usenet group. Imagine the group dynamics. Who can outfish whom? Who can tell the biggest lies? Who knows the perfect knot? Who has the best self-tied flies? Will they check their weapons at the door? It goes on and on. Yep, it could be a great story. If you know a good writer please clue him in. — something bogus to avoid spam)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This Clave thing presents a great opportunity for a human interest story for a FFing magazine. (snip) Yep, it could be a great story. If you know a good writer please clue him in.         more than one of those will be present as participants.  you will not be disappointed with the communiques from the front, nor with reviews filed upon a chance for retrospection. wayno —

wayno, can i be the gun checker? btw, was that you are chub that got the sam in the ass saturday? makes you feel like that monkey, donchano. i can’t even view it now, it hurts. i’m off….damn tax thing tomorrow. waldo

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This Clave thing presents a great opportunity for a human interest story for a FFing magazine. (snip) Yep, it could be a great story. If you know a good writer please clue him in.

        more than one of those will be present as participants.  you will not be disappointed with the communiques from the front, nor with reviews filed upon a chance for retrospection. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — something bogus to avoid spam)

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Mr. G. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This Clave thing presents a great opportunity for a human interest story for a FFing magazine. (snip) Yep, it could be a great story. If you know a good writer please clue him in.         more than one of those will be present as participants.  you will not be disappointed with the communiques from the front, nor with reviews filed upon a chance for retrospection. wayno — wayno, can i be the gun checker? btw, was that you are chub that got the sam in the ass saturday? makes you feel like that monkey, donchano. i can’t even view it now, it hurts. i’m off….damn tax thing tomorrow. waldo

– Visit: http://www.gink.com        http://www.xink.com        http://www.rodbuilding.com        http://www.rodbuilder.com All Writings & Rights Reserved

Question:

Do you really think that selling fly reels is the "public welfare"?< Well, it’s in MY welfare and last time I checked, I was a member of the great unwashed public.

THIS IS NOT MY POST!!!!!   I DID NOT POST THIS Check for your self.  I might be a lot of things-  but I would NEVER post under anyone else’s name.  Look Ken F.  I’m laughing like a dawg at a lot of this,  but YOU were cool to me when a few others dogged my ass…   Don’t you let this fool you. I can play games w/ the best of’em-  but the bastards better play fair-  ’cause  I sure as hell know how to fight dirty-   You see for your self.   I am nothing if not loyal to my own ethic.  You may not understand that ethic-  BUT  look around and see…   I made one hell of a mark fer a new scum bag.   Do I EVER not sign my posts? The primary concern of the individual should be that of becoming ‘diluted’, more specifically- Delusion. That shit is NOT RIGHT!!!!] The real BRUCE post Outta be 200 lbs of low grade CHUM!!!!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – THAT wasn’t the question Bellows.  The question was, why aren’t the shop carrying all our other products because the are so good. Now THAT, is a good question. Finally, this isn’t a question of me/us/ making money to pay many people their rightful wages and livelihood.  It is a question of "SERVICE" being provided at the retail level.  We make more money for Distributors and Retailers then what we profit by at the lower food-chain level of capitalism.  I hope you remember that in your regard Mr. Bellows.  I’m not the injured party here.  It is the retail shop owner and the American Fly Fisherman that are the injured party because the Retailer isn’t looking out for your interests and finally, not his own.

george, get over yourself.  there are plenty of other products that compete with your products that are just as good, if not better.  while it’s all well and good that you are proud of your products, and i would expect nothing less from a business owner, you must realize that other people’s products are damn good… and that if a fly shop decides to carry them instead of your products, they are doing what they feel is best for THEIR customers.  i frequent a shop that doesn’t sell many of your products… do i feel short shafted?  HELL NO.  if i thought i’d gain by using your flyfuzz (or whatever the hell it is) vs. the naturals and synthetics i allready use… i’d let the owner know and have him order me some.  i’m not losing out on diddly, no matter how much you think so.  same with your dubbing wax.  if i thought i absolutely had to have it, i would.  george, it’s friggin wax for christ’s sake.  i can’t imagine my tying would be so much better with a different kind of wax, no matter what gerke propoganda you choose to use. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you for your comments.  If you haven’t tried a NEW tube of FLY-MAKER’S WAX then you may not know what you are missing as a fly tier, for instance, nor any of our other products. George Gehrke/President Gehrke’s Outdoor Fly Fishing Products. Visit: http://www.gink.com MAY I SUGGEST THAT THOSE WHO cannot get our products at their local fly shop MAY ORDER FACTORY DIRECT at the same retail level (and sometimes less).  WE want to get any or all of our products into everyone’s hands, no matter what it takes. Please visit the capitalistic pig’s WEB SITE ABOVE.  or here : http://www.gink.com/ Read about what we can do for you.  If you want to truly protect your fly lines for instance, TRY our PZ fly line dressing and cleaner.  It is the best in the world.

when you call everything you make "the best in the world" my bullshit alarm starts screaming. EVERYTHING is guaranteed.  I defy everyone not to like anything we make.  

well, i’m not a huge fan of gink.  it’s allright, but not divine.  i enjoy trying out lots of different products… some work well, some don’t.   We happen to have the world’s best Guarantee also.  It seems to never end – this quality of products we make.  We are in a very Special Field of this Industry.

blah, blah, blah, propoganda, blah, blah, blah….lol chris

Response:

THAT wasn’t the question Bellows.  The question was, why aren’t the shop carrying all our other products because the are so good. Now THAT, is a good question. Finally, this isn’t a question of me/us/ making money to pay many people their rightful wages and livelihood.  It is a question of "SERVICE" being provided at the retail level.  We make more money for Distributors and Retailers then what we profit by at the lower food-chain level of capitalism.  I hope you remember that in your regard Mr. Bellows.  I’m not the injured party here.  It is the retail shop owner and the American Fly Fisherman that are the injured party because the Retailer isn’t looking out for your interests and finally, not his own. Thank you for your comments.  If you haven’t tried a NEW tube of FLY-MAKER’S WAX then you may not know what you are missing as a fly tier, for instance, nor any of our other products. George Gehrke/President Gehrke’s Outdoor Fly Fishing Products. Visit: http://www.gink.com MAY I SUGGEST THAT THOSE WHO cannot get our products at their local fly shop MAY ORDER FACTORY DIRECT at the same retail level (and sometimes less).  WE want to get any or all of our products into everyone’s hands, no matter what it takes. Please visit the capitalistic pig’s WEB SITE ABOVE.  or here : http://www.gink.com/ Read about what we can do for you.  If you want to truly protect your fly lines for instance, TRY our PZ fly line dressing and cleaner.  It is the best in the world. EVERYTHING is guaranteed.  I defy everyone not to like anything we make.  We happen to have the world’s best Guarantee also.  It seems to never end – this quality of products we make.  We are in a very Special Field of this Industry. Very Special. gg

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Otherwise  L.R.  I don’t know what else to do.  Every fly shop that carries all our products grosses several thousand dollars a year or more.

george, you’re the only one making lots of money of gink, xink, and your wonderful wax… how many bottles of gink must a shop sell to make thousands of dollars<G?

Response:

_______ Everyone needs to have a heart to heat with their local pro shop.  Each Pro Shop that orders some of our other products they don’t carry, gets free samples of everything we carry that they can sell at full retail which is around thirty – $50 dollars worth of pure profit. Take this into your local retail outfitter and show them this offer.  If anyone has any other idea, I’m for it.  I’ll donate a whole box full of products for your favorite fly fishing club or person in need.  Each person that gets a fly shop to order two or more new products they haven’t tried with us yet, gets a complete set of FISH-FUZZ.  This is around $66 worth of free, deadly, streamer, wet fly, tying material in dazzling colors. Otherwise  L.R.  I don’t know what else to do.  Every fly shop that carries all our products grosses several thousand dollars a year or more. We move a lot of product that takes care of the majority of most fly fisherman’s needs world wide, but we could do a lot better Mr. Trout. You are certainly correct about this. Thanks for your support.  It is an excellent fly tying wax at that. Sincerely, george gehrke Used your fly tying wax for the first time this evening tying up some Golden Ribbed Hare’s Ears.  Best wax I’ve ever used.  How come so many places only carry Gink and not your other stuff? L. Baird

–

Question:

I am looking to buy a used kick boat for fly fishing still waters mostly. It needs to be big enough to support aroud 300 lbs. Please email me directly if you have something you would consider selling. Michael Anderson THANKS!

Response:

Are you a large fat person?

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -[snip] Now pardon me while I go and bake this Steelhead.  The only one I kept this year out of thirty released. Sincerely, Mr. Gink — MZ          You should be commended for releasing 29, not admonished for keeping one.Seems to me that you might be better to lambast someone who threatens the existence of the population by unchecked and uncontrolled unethical outlaw activity. The only real sin in using a resource is in waste or destruction of it. The resposibility that comes with the right of use is to insure protection from waste and destruction. Careful management (by management I don’t mean stocking programs) t

I don’t know if you’ve ever seen a steelhead let alone caught one – steelhead are extrememly resilent; mortalities are low with all sorts    of tackle; in BC steelhead for hatchery brood are kept for week and even   months and mostly caught with hook and line; mortality is less than    5% well under – for a good steelheader 30 a year isn’t a large number – chances are of the 29 George released none died So while what you say is nice it doesn’t relate to the post. Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -. I probably never visit that place again, for fear that I may slip and mention that I actually use HOOKs to catch fish. I not making any comparisons between he and you, mind you. Oh, I love the Gink, by the way.                                     Tight lines,                                     Stephen Di Cerbo

Response:

I think C&R itself has contributed more than many of us would care to admit to the degradation of many trout waters.  It has created a false sense that because we C&R we in doing so commit no harm, so we may go and do as we please.  I know of at least 2-3 C&R only waters that today absolutely suck as fisheries, because the bottoms are all ripped up, the banks all pounded down and the fish C&R’d to death.

All too often, c&r is used as a way to "fish more," and feel good about it.  More and more, I have heard people say that if they were keeping fish on a prolific stream, they might be done fishing in less than an hour, but if they release everything, they can fish all day.  Most of them accept that c&r mortality is probably around 10%, but believe that their personal rate is much lower, like 1%.  Some of them learned to flyfish about a year ago. Fishing less can be difficult, but face it, catching 50-100 fish in a day sounds a lot like gluttony, IMHO.  There’s no reason to catch more fish when you’re releasing them than you would if you were keeping them (is there?).  It’s more difficult to be sure, since you’re not restricted by law, but by self-discipline, but it can make for a more relaxed day when you’re not trying to see how many fish you can catch in a day. CQ

Response:

IN support and response of George and others I too forward some opinions. Heritage is but an eliquant excuse.  I believe that within the FFing community those who take a fish or two are considered as unholy.  Many threads have been spun on this topic i know.  THe point I wish to make is that the users of ANY resource are diverse.  The chance to keep fish is what fuels some, and the chance to C&R others.  What must be remebered by all us is the resource. Many different management stategies have been tried across north america, some working and some not.  The C&R strategy is but one.  I think as we sit and look at others and their use within a strategy that moderation and toleration are required.  A quote to potententially contemplate "Anyone can manage the resource.  It’s managing the users that presents the problem" Aldo Leopold. Something else to consider on this topic is the basic population structure of a fishery.  To look at the number of any one age of fish graphically sees many young and few old (or small/large).  THis is the basis for the slot limits some of you may know so well.  This method allows for both C&R volentary or regualted as well as kill, always keeping the population in mind. Finally to end this rant, FF’ers are but one of the multitude of fishers out there.  We tend to fish streams and fish for trout and that’s where our world ends.  In Canada, Ontario where I live each spring on any lake whihc holds pickerel (Walleye) a floatila of boats forms whihc one could walk across (in certain places).  These anglers do not sport flyrods and do intend on taking fish home.  So then in looking at all fishermen of all types, I would put forward the thought that keeping fish is "what’s done" and C&R is still a mystery to most. What I advocate is a concern for the resource by each induvidual.   Understanding whats going on within a system allows for true concern and protection of any system.  To just do something because it’s the "norm" is not the way to manage or use a resource. Thoughts to consider every time one goes fishing.  The act of wading may be of greater concern then catching a realesing or keeping a fish.   Further that the fish most of use seek are "naturalized", that is with little exception rainbows came from west slope drainges (i.e. the pacific), browns came from germany and brookies from the north and east. The fish we seek are aliens which forced out the natives.   Don’t get me wrong, I love to fish, and fish for rainbows, and browns, these are just things to consider. Ian

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well said; I agree completely. it’s time to move beyond a simple C&R vs C&K debate and find ways of returning quality to the experience. And who gets to define Quality of Experience ?  I could catch a 15 pounder from the Frying Pan river and have zero QOE. TimW There was a time when openning day on the Battenkill was an event! People arrived the evenning before, built fires, drank some, swapped stories…now days you are very lucky to find a fisherman on the Battenkill, much less catch a fish…in fact VT Fish and Game have been trying to complete a creel study on the river but have not been able to survey enough fisherman…because the fisherman aren’t there!  Now, a big part of the Battenkills problem has been the 12 fish limit on the river and live bait fisherman killing their limit.  There is no quality experience left for anyone…period!  Somewhere out there is the balance that will restore the quality of experience for all fishers…being absolute about any one agenda..other than doing what is right for the fish…is not going to return the quality fishing experience to the Battenkill.

Extremely interesting to me.   I might have to give the Battenkill a whirl, sounds like my kind of river. Give me the possibility of a fish, however remote, and solitude over many fish and fishermen any day of the week. TimW

Response:

Nice post,

Yes, it was….. but Catch and Kill is far from the greatest threat to our fisheries.

I would say amen to that. In fact I think one could argue that management of a fishery may well require some catch and kill to maintain a healthy population.

It will require much more than that.  It will require a whole different approach.  Lotteries, moratoriums, and other methods of reducing the usage of our trout waters are needed to reduce habitat degradation and to promote renewal of wild stocks. But lets talk *Heritage* for a moment.  Lets talk about the Heritage to cut the forest, mine the mountains and use our rivers for sewers. We pass off these heritages as *Rights*…I find it very difficult to accept from some of the people that post to this newsgroup their obsession with catch and release, and their unwillingness to be equally militant regarding the damage done by industry to our streams.

I too find it difficult to accept this near-religious fervor many hold for the "Sacred Cow" (C&R), especially when the real damage to our waters continue unabated. I think C&R itself has contributed more than many of us would care to admit to the degradation of many trout waters.  It has created a false sense that because we C&R we in doing so commit no harm, so we may go and do as we please.  I know of at least 2-3 C&R only waters that today absolutely suck as fisheries, because the bottoms are all ripped up, the banks all pounded down and the fish C&R’d to death. I’m not advocating C&K here.  What I am advocating is a kinder & gentler approach to how we view our rivers, and what we as fishers are doing to them.  We need to lighten up. </c — Chaz Clover "Hemoroids. There, I said it!"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is my view that although Catch and Kill is viewed by many as ‘A Heritage’ to a right to kill is in fact rightfully going the way of the passenger pigeon and bison mentality.  Like it or not.  This is not to say that taking fish to eat that are within the legal limit is wrong. It is getting to be tougher or harder to justify the taking under the old ruse of need.  As our wildlife inventories decrease daily under the weight of a burgeoning population explosion, the concept begins to sink in its own quicksand

Question:

Ayone have directions to Deep Creek in Southern California?  I’m told it’s near Lake Arrowhead.  Any info would be appreciated including recommended areas to fish. Thanks in advance, Richard

Response:

Ayone have directions to Deep Creek in Southern California?  I’m told it’s near Lake Arrowhead.  Any info would be appreciated including recommended areas to fish. Thanks in advance,

Richard, I haven’t fly-fished Deep Creek but I used to have a house at Lake Arrowhead and still go up there occasionally to visit friends.  You can get to Deep Creek from the east end of Arrowhead; take the road across the street from the Marina.  There is a trailhead with a sign.  It’s a nice 3 mile or so hike down – I haven’t hiked all the way to the creek.  Friends that have fished the creek like it; the fish are small, it’s catch and release, barbless hooks.  Compared to a lot of places you can fish, it’s not great but there is very little fly-fishing in SOCAL so you take what you can get.  Remember, you have to hike out at the end!  I think there are other approaches to the creek but I don’t know them.  Good luck. Dave Hurwitz

Response: