Question:

One thing that rather surprises me about such discussions, is that we already have a very large range of very effective patterns, which catch fish most satisfactorily, when used correctly.  It might be possible to improve on these, although in many cases I doubt it.

Ah, but there’e the rub, or rather, at least two of them.  If one is buyng flies, and the seller is both knowledgable, and willing to share that knowledge, the purchaser may indeed wind up with the "correct" patterns and colors for the water in question.  However, if one is tying, then things get a bit tricky.  If one simply looks at what they see on or in the water, (or worse, simply look at non-POV relevant pictures of the thing they wish to imitate or simulate) and then look up patterns/color variants to match it to their eye, it may or may not be a match. It could get even worse.  For example, if they want a bi-visible, now there are two colors to consider, and the possible conflict of the sighting color.   I absolutely agree that the likelihood of there not being a printed pattern/variant recipe somewhere that will fill the bill is small, perhaps non-existent.  But, IMO, simply matching what you see to what you think you need is iffy at best, without keeping "what the fish sees" in your mind.  For example, a light-colored, lightly-dressed wet will, when viewed against a light background, look much different when viewed against the backdrop of a rocky lie or from below against a darkening sky, just as a similarly light-colored dry will when viewed from below against a bright blue sky, etc. TC, R

Response:

Letcher Lambuth, in 1936, did some studies with Pacific coast salt water bait fish.  Using gelatin filters to simulate the top 20 feet of the water column, he observed that candlefish and herring looked far different in the water than they did in the hand.  He then designed the Lambuth Herring and the Lambuth Candlefish using the colors that he saw via the filters.  Note that he did not have the advantage of studies of the mechanics of fish vision. We know, for examples, that after a certain depth red turns black, that green is the last color to remain identifiable, and that flash (tinsel, etc.,) requires light to be of any significance.  However, this is to our eyes not necessarily to the eyes of a fish. With due respect to Lambuth, a true pioneer, it seems to me that we are better served by dressing our flies, when we are tying something that is meant to be bait specific, with colors as exact to our eyes as possible. Wouldn’t it stand to reason that colors X, Y, Z; properly porportioned to match a bait would be identifiable to a fish as that bait at what ever depth and conditions the fish was used to viewing it? I’d appreciate your discussion. Crusty

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[snip] This underwater view is very much the subject of Lafontaine’s "The Dry Fly."  He and his partner conducted quite a few scuba dives to see how <SNIP Visit The Streamer Page at

http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html Skues book is indeed first class.  If you want a modern view I would suggest "The Trout And The Fly. A new approach"  By John Goddard and Brian Clarke. This book is, in my opinion, one of the finest works ever printed on the subject, and covers the subjects you mention very precisely and thoroughly, with excellent photography. My English copy was borrowed by somebody, and not returned. Most annoying. I still have a German copy though, so all is not lost. The ISBN number is 3-275-00803-X.  This number may be specific to the German version, I am not sure. However, a net search should turn up a copy for you. I have still not got LaFontaine

Question:

These trout can be very selective though, if they are rising to "Benson and Hedges", "Camels" may be useless, and indeed on occasion only a "John Player Special" will do the trick,  reduced strength cigarettes have also been found wanting. Apparently the material used in the filter makes them float too low in the surface film, and even trout are not stupid enough to believe that soggy cigarette butts  are emerging aquatics. Untipped cigarettes may often prove effective, although they tend to disintegrate rapidly.  If you want a real lunker, then try throwing Havana stubs attached to a very long leader off a suitable bridge. TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Trout guts are fun. Not to be Ted Nugent about it, or anything, but

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You guys have missed it altogether.  This fish are addicted!.  They obviously can’t smoke underwater so they do the next best thing and inhale the butts.  Imagine the high a lttle trout gets from the average sized butt?  I really doing think somebody should be suing a tobacco company about this.  After all, these fish could get really sick and if you eat them, you’re getting second hand smoke (or is that third?) Can anybody say, "Class action?" Peter

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A few years ago, in April (it snowed that day) I caught a 3.5 lb Blagdon trout that a spherical glstening ball in its stomach.  On unwrapping it I could just discern some gold and the words ‘can damage your health’.  So it would seem. Gordon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These trout can be very selective though, if they are rising to "Benson and Hedges", "Camels" may be useless, and indeed on occasion only a "John Player Special" will do the trick,  reduced strength cigarettes have also been found wanting. Apparently the material used in the filter makes them float too low in the surface film, and even trout are not stupid enough to believe that soggy cigarette butts  are emerging aquatics. Untipped cigarettes may often prove effective, although they tend to disintegrate rapidly.  If you want a real lunker, then try throwing Havana stubs attached to a very long leader off a suitable bridge. TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de Trout guts are fun. Not to be Ted Nugent about it, or anything, but

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You guys have missed it altogether.  This fish are addicted!.  They obviously can’t smoke underwater so they do the next best thing and inhale the butts.  Imagine the high a lttle trout gets from the average sized butt?  I really doing think somebody should be suing a tobacco company about this.  After all, these fish could get really sick and if you eat them, you’re getting second hand smoke (or is that third?) Can anybody say, "Class action?"

One of the more amusing urban legends I’ve heard lately was an explanation of why so many deer get run over on the highway. After eating cigarette butts that people fling from their car windows, they become addicted to the nicotine, and hang out along the highways looking for more; sooner or later, they get hit by a car. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

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Trout guts are fun. Not to be Ted Nugent about it, or anything, but I’ve learned a lot from trout guts. For example, I’ve learned that trout eat many more terrestrials than I thought possible. I’ve learned that trout on some streams often eat ladybugs and that smallish red humpies are excellent imitators for ladybugs. Importantly, I’ve also learned that my wife has no real appreciation for the disassembly of trout guts on certain kitchen counters. Also, she doesn’t particularly care for my habit of bringing chunks’o bugs from trout stomachs to show her while she’s painting landscapes. Important lessons, one and all. Today’s lesson, however, was particularly instructive in light of the recent discussion hereabouts on how much and how fast your average trout learns. Now, I don’t keep all that many trout, but when I do, I definitely like to see what the heck they’ve been up to, dining-table wise. Occasionally, if the surroundings support it, I even keep a largish one. So, it was with particular interest that I cleaned an 18 incher tonight, eager to see on what such a large (and presumably, smarter than average) trout might be dining. Tiny tricos? Evanescent midges? Taco supremes? In addition to a couple ladybugs, the first two things out of this particular stomach were caddis larvae. Complete caddis larvae — casings and all. In this particular river, the casings average about 3/4 inch to an inch in length, cylindrical, made out of the usual caddis larva materials of gravel and small sticks. Probing further, the next item on our trutta post mortem appeared to be yet another caddis larva — same length, same diameter, same…waitasec. Most caddis larvae don’t rebound when you press on them. Most caddis larvae aren’t fibrous. Most caddis larvae don’t read "Benson & Hedges" on the side. Yup — it was a cigarette butt. In addition to mocking whatever pretensions I might have had about fishing on a "pristine" stream, this event also gave new credence to that episode in, "The River Why," where Gus concocts a fly made out of hot dog wrappers and cigarette butts to fool the wily old bass in the town pond (’scuse me if my memory isn’t totally clear on that passage…think I’m getting the gist of it nonethemenos). It also made me question the advisability of imagining too much intelligence on the part of your average trout brain. Maybe sometimes the answer is just to throw something big, ugly, and nicotine-stained out there and hope for the best. So, anyway, the long and short of it is that I’ve started smoking. Besides having heard good things about the habit in general, I also need a ready source for new inventions at the vise. Look for a gold-ribbed Camel’s butt at a fly swap near you soon . tight lines and full ashtrays, – sid

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Question:

Just don’t get caught using a Bastard with a woolly bugger! DBJ "Why do I not practice what I preach? – I am not the sort of person I preach to!" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I saw an add for Climax leaders, yesterday.  It said something about "tight butt".  I told my wife that I had a climax with a tight butt and she wondered what the hell I was talking about.  Humor in Flyfishing!

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I think your wife understands more than we may be willing to admit to. Taos Cuthroat

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I saw an add for Climax leaders, yesterday.  It said something about "tight butt".  I told my wife that I had a climax with a tight butt and she wondered what the hell I was talking about.  Humor in Flyfishing!

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.  I told my wife that I had a climax with a tight butt         that’s a world class death wish you got goin there, pal. wayno

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Question:

I’d like to hear your thoughts on a new project I’ve been working on, any suggestions would really help. The idea is to take people fishing or hunting in a corporate aircraft up north or anywhere, instead of driving or taking the airlines and then a bush plane. I can fly people right into the lodges. I just want to hear what you guys think of this. For example I can take people to the James Bay area or Middle Quebec round trip for about $2950 canadian, or $1925 US for three days. I can take a maximum of four people in an executive cabin, so that could mean only $481 US each if there is four of you, each extra day would cost $135 US / day since the aircraft is grounded. Not bad eh! I can fly into any airport up there. Most lodges and guides have small strips which are easily accessible. I can even take Americans from the US into Canada. All trips of course being very flexible and up to you to plan. The aircraft is a pressurized twin Cessna 340A model used for executive and general charters out of Toronto. Please let me know what any of you think. This is in no way a publicity stunt but a way for me to find out if these trips can work out. Thank you and good fishing Ian Mathers

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Not sure of that out of Toronto.  But I know some American that might go for it. Ron

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Question:

The first time I fished the Rapid River with Dave, we caught many salmon.  The next year, we did the same.   Jerry Schrader Schrader Photo http://www.weddingphoto-ma.com

Response:

Jerry Schrader: <<The first time I fished the Rapid River with Dave, we caught many salmon. The next year, we did the same. Shhhhhhhhh, Jerry.  Remember, there are NO fish in Maine except pickeral and bass. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Dave Tatosian: (snipped) <<- and for God’s sake: don’t tell anyone about this place! ;^) Oh, the word is out, Dave.  Unfortunately.  But I know folks that have been there and won’t go back because they didn’t catch any fish.  Being put on a body of water with salmon and trout doesn’t mean you can *catch* them.  It is a special river that requires years to learn.  I’ve seen "outsider" guides have a zilch day when all the "regulars" were taking fish. Salmon for breakfast —– oh, if only I could have some of Jan’s fresh salmon with bacon.  BTW, Stan does much of the breakfast cooking.  I can tell the difference between their scrambled eggs – Stan’s are fluffier. Dave LaCourse

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Jerry Schrader: I have stayed at Lakewood Camps several times, and loved every minute.  It’s very rustic, with anchient trappers cabins, and excellent food and menu.  I woild recommend it highly, but don’t look for cable tv.  Bring your sleeping bag, the cabins are not insulated, andif it’s chilly, the woodstove burns out in 2 hours. It *is* rustic.  The cabins date to the early 1900s and, as Jerry says, are not insulated.  There has been a fishing camp (called a "sporting camp") at Lakewood for over a hundred years.  No need to bring your sleeping bags, Jerry.  Every cabin has plenty of blankets on the comfortable beds, and if more is needed, there are comforters provided by Sue. A little trick with the woodsoves:  go behind Stan and Sue’s quarters and get BIG pieces of wood instead of the small pieces supplied in the cabins. But most of all:  the fishing is always great.  Catching can also be good. Dave LaCourse

I’ll add: – by the end of a long day of enjoying the river – and stuffed with the best camp cooking you’ll ever find (and a few gin and tonics if you please ;^) – you’ll conk out under your pile of blankets so fast you won’t care that the fire dies down in a couple of hours. – the brisk morning air will help you to pop out of bed to get in an hour of fishing before the marvelous breakfasts that the cook (Janne Provincer) provides. (btw: If you’re lucky enough to catch a good keeper salmon, have it baked for breakfast with a few strips of bacon draped over it. Yum!) – don’t *ever* try to sneak into the main building with your waders on (Sue will feed your privates to the crawfish!) – and for God’s sake: don’t tell anyone about this place! ;^) /dave ps: Louise Dickenson Rich wrote a series of novels about the river from Richardson Lake down to Umbagog, and the people of her times there. "We Took To The Woods" is an excellent winter read, as is the sequel "My Neck Of The Woods". You’ll find some outstanding photos that show things as they were around 60 years back…

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Jerry Schrader: <<I have stayed at Lakewood Camps several times, and loved every minute.  It’s very rustic, with anchient trappers cabins, and excellent food and menu.  I woild recommend it highly, but don’t look for cable tv.  Bring your sleeping bag, the cabins are not insulated, andif it’s chilly, the woodstove burns out in 2 hours.   It *is* rustic.  The cabins date to the early 1900s and, as Jerry says, are not insulated.  There has been a fishing camp (called a "sporting camp") at Lakewood for over a hundred years.  No need to bring your sleeping bags, Jerry.  Every cabin has plenty of blankets on the comfortable beds, and if more is needed, there are comforters provided by Sue. A little trick with the woodsoves:  go behind Stan and Sue’s quarters and get BIG pieces of wood instead of the small pieces supplied in the cabins. But most of all:  the fishing is always great.  Catching can also be good. Dave LaCourse

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I have stayed at Lakewood Camps several times, and loved every minute.  It’s very rustic, with anchient trappers cabins, and excellent food and menu.  I woild recommend it highly, but don’t look for cable tv.  Bring your sleeping bag, the cabins are not insulated, andif it’s chilly, the woodstove burns out in 2 hours.   Jerry Schrader Schrader Photo http://www.weddingphoto-ma.com

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Dave would you have any addreses, either e-mail or landmail for the above camps?Thanks for the help ,Ralph

Hi Ralph. Here are contacts for Grant’s and Lakewood. Grant’s Kennebago Camps P.O. Box 786 Rangely, Maine  04970 (207) 864-3608 summer (207) 282-5264 winter (800) 633-4815 out of state Lakewood Camps P.O. Address Andover, Maine 04216 Phone 207-392-1581 I’ll see if I can dig up an "off season" phone number for Lakewood. While Stan and Sue Milton close down the camp for the winter, they have been working at Sunday River (ski area) while there’s snow so they’re somewhere in the area. But I’m not sure if they have the camp number ring at their winter quarters. Again, if there’s an outdoor show (as usual) at Worcester, that’d be a great place to meet the various camp operators. Regards, /dave

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m giving some thought, although it’s very early, as to where to go flyfishing in Maine this coming Spring. Would be very grateful for any recent opinions and experiences at: Grant’s Bosebuck Tim Pond Libby’s I’ve stayed at all but Libby’s in the last 20 years, but as you want "recent", that cuts it down to Grant’s three years ago, one week after the July 4th drake hatch: great fishing on both Big Kennebago Lake and the river below the dam, good food, good accomodations. You might also want to include Lakewood Camps on Richardson Lake on your list. The best food you’ll ever find at a camp, good fishing, great folks running the place… Assuming there’s an "outdoors show" at Worcester this spring, that’d be a good place to meet some of the camp operators… /dave Dave would you have any addreses, either e-mail or landmail for the above

camps?Thanks for the help ,Ralph

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Dave Tatosian: <<You might also want to include Lakewood Camps on Richardson Lake on your list. The best food you’ll ever find at a camp, good fishing, great folks running the place… Assuming there’s an "outdoors show" at Worcester this spring, that’d be a good place to meet some of the camp operators… I concur with Dave — best fishin and best camp.  Stan and Sue Milton run a classy joint with great fishing and food at a very resonable price.  E-mail me for their phone number. Expect anything with the Libby name to be a class act.  Great people and they have been doing it for years.  Please e-mail me if you want Mat Libby’s e-mail address.   Dave LaCourse

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I’m giving some thought, although it’s very early, as to where to go flyfishing in Maine this coming Spring. Would be very grateful for any recent opinions and experiences at: Grant’s Bosebuck Tim Pond Libby’s

I’ve stayed at all but Libby’s in the last 20 years, but as you want "recent", that cuts it down to Grant’s three years ago, one week after the July 4th drake hatch: great fishing on both Big Kennebago Lake and the river below the dam, good food, good accomodations. You might also want to include Lakewood Camps on Richardson Lake on your list. The best food you’ll ever find at a camp, good fishing, great folks running the place… Assuming there’s an "outdoors show" at Worcester this spring, that’d be a good place to meet some of the camp operators… /dave

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10/28/98 Hello: I’m giving some thought, although it’s very early, as to where to go flyfishing in Maine this coming Spring. Would be very grateful for any recent opinions and experiences at:                                     Grant’s                                     Bosebuck                                     Tim Pond                                     Libby’s Thanks, Bob Rose

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Question:

I head into the hospital for ACL reconstruction of my left knee this morning and am out of business for the next 5 to 6 months.

I had my left knee done last October, the right one done in December and was on the water again in April. Had the lakes been open, I might have been fishing even sooner – the Doc told me a kickboat would be excellent  therapy. In any case,  good luck with the surgery. Regards, Dennis Smith Loveland, CO Dennis Smith Loveland, CO

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Well it is time to hang up my fly rod for the year.  I head into the hospital for ACL reconstruction of my left knee this morning and am out of business for the next 5 to 6 months. Mike

 Mike, Here’s wishing you a successful visit to the hospital, and get over it quickly. Good luck. Regards from Wales. — Bill

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Well it is time to hang up my fly rod for the year.  I head into the hospital for ACL reconstruction of my left knee this morning and am out of business for the next 5 to 6 months. Mike

– Mike, Good luck with your surgery and we’ll be sure to save some fish fer ya… –Walt

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Well it is time to hang up my fly rod for the year.  I head into the hospital for ACL reconstruction of my left knee this morning and am out of business for the next 5 to 6 months.  All of you flyfishing nuts will have to make sure and post your adventures to the newsgroup so that I can at least read about flyfishing. All was not lost for the year, I did get the opportunity to catch a 20 pound Rainbow Trout two weeks ago.  Definetly the highlight of my fishing life. Unfortunately, August was the wrong month to get the Gerrard’s in Kootenay Lake on a fly rod so will have to go back in April or May and attempt to get one. Have fun and enjoy the rest of your Summer! Mike

Mike: Sorry to hear about the knee problems. What kind of reconstruction are you having?  I had patellar graft reconstruction on my left knee 6 years ago and have been *extremely* happy with the result. You might even find that you could still get some fishing in this season.  By three months post-op, I was doing a lot of the things I wanted to, just being careful. Best of luck to you.  It is amazing what they can do to repair things these days. Bob

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Well it is time to hang up my fly rod for the year.  I head into the hospital for ACL reconstruction of my left knee this morning and am out of business for the next 5 to 6 months.  All of you flyfishing nuts will have to make sure and post your adventures to the newsgroup so that I can at least read about flyfishing.   All was not lost for the year, I did get the opportunity to catch a 20 pound Rainbow Trout two weeks ago.  Definetly the highlight of my fishing life. Unfortunately, August was the wrong month to get the Gerrard’s in Kootenay Lake on a fly rod so will have to go back in April or May and attempt to get one. Have fun and enjoy the rest of your Summer! Mike

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Question:

Jungle Cock fethers , Where to buy them?? S.R.L.

Go to Chinatown in San Francisco.  You can get anything there. Tiger bones, bear gall bladders, wolf snouts, gorilla hands, jungle cock feathers — you name it, they’ll get it, if you have the do-re-mi. Just try not to look like a Fish and Game dude.         Steve Barnard

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Jungle Cock fethers , Where to buy them?? S.R.L.

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You should be able to find artificial jungle cock from some of the mail order houses. Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jungle Cock fethers , Where to buy them?? S.R.L. Go to Chinatown in San Francisco.  You can get anything there. Tiger bones, bear gall bladders, wolf snouts, gorilla hands, jungle cock feathers — you name it, they’ll get it, if you have the do-re-mi. Just try not to look like a Fish and Game dude.    Steve Barnard

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Jungle Cock fethers , Where to buy them?? S.R.L.

Hi S.R.L. We carry them in small packages in sizes and in whole necks from time to time. The necks are from domestically raised birds. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

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Two words – ill  legal. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jungle Cock fethers , Where to buy them?? S.R.L.

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Two words ill eagle – sick bird. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail GO TO http://users.ccnet.com/~emh FOR TRAVEL TIE BOX PLANS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two words – ill  legal. Jungle Cock fethers , Where to buy them?? S.R.L.

Response:

Two words – ill  legal.

I don’t believe that’s true anymore, as they are being raised domestically, as Bill Kiene pointed out.  Fly Fishing Only in Fairfield, Maine carries them.

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Hardly.  Domestically raised Jungle Cock is available from a variety of sources. Two words – ill  legal. Jungle Cock fethers , Where to buy them?? S.R.L.

– Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                          Tom McGuane

Response:

Hi there,is it true in some states in USA jungle cock is ill legal?Here in ICELAND jungle cock it

Question:

 HI All,         I am looking for links for good fishing sites to add to my links page. If anyone has a good link or web site that isn’t already on the list could you please e-mail the address along with the title of the site and what country it is in. —   Davy Holt Surfing from Clydebank Scotland *  " O Sir, doubht not that angling is                                 *    an art… The question is rather Scottish Angling Homepage       *    whether you are capable of learning   http://www.dholt.demon.co.uk    *    it?"                                                                        Izaak Walton

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Hello, I used a great guide service in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area last year and would recommend it to anyone who was looking. Their webpage is at:  http://members.aol.com/canoetrail/bwcaw.html check it out!

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Fly fishing for Stripers in Cape Elizabeth, Maine Fly fishing for Reds on Cumberland Island, Georgia Reply:  North Atlantic Guides

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WE ARE PLANNING ON GOING TO SANNIBELL (SP?) ISLAND THIS SPRING, ANY TIPS?

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Question:

I’ll be in Arizona at the end of March and was wondering about the flyfishing.  Any info?  Thanks, Ed Parsonage.

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I’ll be visiting Arizona in March and was wondering about the flyfishing. Any suggestions? Thanks, Ed Parsonage

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I’ll be visiting Arizona in March and was wondering about the flyfishing. Any suggestions? Thanks, Ed Parsonage

It depends upon the weather. If the high country thaw has started, try some of the lakes in the White Mountains.  The lower lakes (around Show Low) may be available by then. Martin Hewlett Dept. of MCB Univ. of Arizona Tucson, AZ

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Question:

This subject is getting a lot of press with the identification of the disease in the Madison, so there is (finally) some information out there. The disease has been in Colorado for some time now and is getting worse. The culprit is almost certainly illegal stocking or (apparently in the case of Colorado) knowingly stocking with diseased fish.  There is evidence that the disease can be spread to other rivers via boots and other fishing equipment, but (at least according to Dick Vincent at the Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks Department) it is not spread by wildfowl. Brook trout and salmon are also affected. I suspect now that a river as important as the Madison has been affected, we will see a lot more about this and other threatening diseases.

Response:

I would be interested in seeing the Washington Post article and the article mentioned in December from the Bozeman Gazette.  The posts I have been reading here about Whirling disease have really been upsetting.  My fishing buddies and I are trying to figure out what the best course of action for us would be.  Certainly no good plans have come from the "experts" as of yet (this would seem to be especially true in Colorado). Why hasn’t there been much yet in the fly fishing ‘literature’?  I haven’t read a thing in FR&R or Flyfisherman.  It would seem that research into why Browns and other unaffected species are immune would be the way to get this disease out of fish populations.  Does anyone involved in Fisheries Management or Biology at Montana State or at CU know anything about any research into the molecular biology/pathogenesis of this disease?  Please post!

Response:

If this thing is protozoan and can potentially be spread by our wading boots, does anyone have any suggestions or know what we should be doing with our waders after fishing any of the potentially affected waters?  How long can the protozoa live out of water?  I often fish the Madison for a day or two, then go to the spring creeks in the Paradise Valley.  I would hate to be contributing to the spread of this disease into those waters, or any other for that matter!

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:   What about cutthroats? From what I have heard–in both Montana : and Colorado (and perhaps the Truckee too)–the brown trout are OK! : Does anybody know anything about Whirling disease and cutthroats? The Washington Post article mentioned that cutts are susceptible to the disease. Rick — T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.  

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as u have pointed out whirling disease has made its way inot the wild population and indeed this is bad news.  as i have had it described to me this disease effects the delicate bone structure in juvinelle fish so when frightened/starteled they swim in small fast concentric circles instead of going for cover.  in addition, i have also heard that it is usually the result of the close confines of hatcherys that spread it, as u may also have heard the state of colorado fish & game department is releasing hatchery fish with this disease into some of their blue ribbon water, for what reason god alone knows and god aint speakin on this subject.  anyway i hope that the local TU chapters get involed in this an can help Mr. Vincent out.  from all reports he is a pretty good guy and knows a thing or two about how to maintain a wild trout population.  any news on this unhappy event is most welcome

Response:

disease has been discovered in the wild rainbow populations of Montana’s upper Madison. None of us here knows anything more than that just yet. But it continues to look bad. The outfitters haven’t really caught on, because the spring/winter fishing is good at this very moment. But whirling disease, apparently, only effects the tiddlers. In a few more seasons, once the current crop of bigger rainbows has died off from old age, there may be no more little fish to replace them. I wish I knew more about what’s going on. I’ve heard that Whirling disease made its way into wild rainbow populations in Colorado some time ago. Who down there in Colorado knows something about this? Which Colorado river systems are effected? How long has this been going on, etc?  Is the Colorado problem stable in any way, or is it getting worse? —

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: some time ago. Who down there in Colorado knows something about this? : Which Colorado river systems are effected? How long has this been RE: Whirling Disease I met with some guides here in the shop over Christmas and this was the issue at hand. It looks very grim and much worse then originally speculated.  The guides are accusing the Colorado DOW of a MAJOR cover up.  They have SCREWED up big time and since fishing is such a huge economical thing…noone will come straight.  The local guides are going to try to take matters into their own hands and we are in the process of recommending a wierd but hopefully effective idea to the DOW for the 96-98 regs…the idea is to close off feeder streams to all fishing during the rainbow spawn. The idea is to try to get some of these genetically farked up fish to produce (naturally) fish that are genetically immune to the disease.  It is a long shot, but better then no shot.   Apparently noone is talking but the rumour is that all year classes are missing in some of the major drainages (i.e. NO/0/nada/zip baby fishes) and that the spore (?) is present throughtout the state and that it originated in a hatchery in Utah. All colorado fishermen should pressure anybody and everybody they know for more information ans to support this closed rainbow spawning fishing season in the feeders… Tim Walker

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RE: Whirling Disease Apparently noone is talking but the rumour is that all year classes are missing in some of the major drainages (i.e. NO/0/nada/zip baby fishes) and that the spore (?) is present throughtout the state and that it originated in a hatchery in Utah. Tim Walker

  What about cutthroats? From what I have heard–in both Montana and Colorado (and perhaps the Truckee too)–the brown trout are OK! Does anybody know anything about Whirling disease and cutthroats? —

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I understand that there was an article in the Washington Post today (1/4) on the whirling disease in the Madison.  I have not seen it, but would like to get a copy if anyone has one.

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:   What about cutthroats? From what I have heard–in both Montana : and Colorado (and perhaps the Truckee too)–the brown trout are OK! : Does anybody know anything about Whirling disease and cutthroats? My understanding is that the cutts aren’t affected, allthough I haven’t conducted too many fry surveys and the misinformation in general does scare me.   Damned hatcheries indeed.  If only the folkes could to see fit to spend their tax monies on stream improvements and accept a greatly reduced general catch limit while the wild stocks rebound… Population estimates for colorado are around 5 million by the year 2000.  The state is just too fragile for this many people.  No, I don’t begrudge folkes for wanting to live here. Nor do I have any answers.   It frightens me to the core. Tim Walker

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: Hey, I may be stupid, but can anyone explain what Whirling disease is? It is a disease that affects the spine of rainbow trout fry that first showed up in the state hatcheries.  Now the dept of wildlife has introduced it into the waters and it is affecting the wild stock.   It is very, very serious and some think we are on the brink of a disaster of major proportions.  I really hope that some biologist in the know (Bob Golder…what’re you up to today) would really fill in the blanks. Tim Walker

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Hey, I may be stupid, but can anyone explain what Whirling disease is? Paul

Whirling disease is caused by a protozoan parasite that invades the cartilage of the skull, gill arches and spine.  It affects only trout and salmon.  Rainbow trout are the most seriously affected, browns (which probably coevolved with the parasite in Europe) are somewhat, but not totally resistant. The parasite goes through a complex life cycle which involves spores which may persist in the bottom sediments for many years, hence it is here to stay in the Madison. It may make infected fish swim in a circle  (whirling) or die, but more frequently cause deformities or make the fish more susceptible to predation or environmental episodes. It was discovered in Colorado in the late ’80s, Utah in ‘91 and now in Montana. Utah initiated a strong program to try to eradicate it when it was first discovered.  Later findings showed it had been spread, perhaps intentionally, to other parts of the state.  Current efforts are directed to try to protect wild native cutthroat from the disease.  Montana has a good program and  has been trying to prevent it from coming into the state.

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Hey, I may be stupid, but can anyone explain what Whirling disease is? Paul

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Whirling disease…..not good.  Up to 90% of the rainbows have died.  I got this from a guy at Lakestream Fly Shop in Whitefish last week.  It doesn’t seem to be affecting the brown trout population that badly.  Yet…another distrubing note.  They are not sure how the disease is spreading.  I am going to ask a fishery pathologist i know, on what he knows what is going on.  I will post the info that evening.  I will try to do it on Monday. If anyone around here knows what is going on…he will.  Yet the info coming my way on the impact of the disease is NOT GOOD!.  Just pray I guess. Peter

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Last night’s Bozeman Daily Chronicle ran the headline "Madison River Rainbows Diseased," or something like that. The story identified Whirling disease as the culprit, and quoted Montana Fish and Game Biologist Dick Vincent, who said upper Madison rainbow populations had plummeted from 3300 to 300 fish/mile in a single season. Brown trout, so far, seem unafected.    Whirling disease has traditionally been associated with hatchery fish in the past. How this disease has made its way into a wild population remains a mystery. But Dick Vincent did mention scattered reports of hatchery rainbows mysteriously appearing in the upper Madison in late 1980’s. What this means is anyone’s guess. Montana hasn’t stocked rainbows in the Madison for decades.    What happens next? There are rumors. But nothing definite yet. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a complete fishing closure on the upper Madison for a few years. It’s not clear that a slimy Elk Hair Caddis–heavily used Monday evening on the Madison–couldn’t transmit Whirling disease to Big Hole or Yellowstone rainbows on Tuesday morning. It would be a real tragedy if the lower Yellowstone’s (now) recovering native Cutthroat populations were to become effected (decimated?) too. This could be really bad news. —

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Last night’s Bozeman Daily Chronicle ran the headline "Madison River Rainbows Diseased," or something like that. The story identified Whirling disease as the culprit, and quoted Montana Fish and Game Biologist Dick Vincent, who said upper Madison rainbow populations had plummeted from 3300 to 300 fish/mile in a single season. Brown trout, so far, seem unafected. <snip   What happens next? There are rumors. But nothing definite yet. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a complete fishing closure on the upper Madison for a few years. It’s not clear that a slimy Elk <snip again

There are a lot of rumors bouncing around Bozeman today. The main one that I have heard is that FW&P will attempt a total rainbow kill on the Upper Madison, although how they would do this without taking out the browns is anyone’s guess.  Suggestions that I have heard include changing the regs to require people fishing to kill all rainbows and release all browns.  I can’t believe that this would get all of the rainbows – we just don’t fish that well. Another problem will be what to do if they can take out the rainbows completely.  Options would presumably include (a) leaving this stretch of river as a trophy wild brown river, (b) restocking the rainbows from hatchery fish, which would really degrade the fishery for several years, and (c) relocating wild rainbows from other parts of the river. On the less bad news side, it is my understanding that this is limited to the river between Quake lake and Ennis dam.  I never thought that I would be grateful for that stupid dam.  I.e., unless they lose it there is no immediate danger of this getting into the lower Madison and hence into the Missouri, Gallatin, etc.  At the other end, the Madison in Yellowstone National Park, and hence the Gibbon and Firehole, are not currently in danger. Unfortunately I haven’t heard that this will kill off the whitefish. The stretch of river affected by this disease is often claimed to be the best piece of wild trout water in the continental US, so this is already a disaster, and if the disease does get into the browns as well it will probably be 10-20 years before they can fully restore the fishery.  Not a good Christmas present for the people who read this group. Denbigh http://www.cs.montana.edu/~starkey http://www.cs.montana.edu/~starkey/fishing.html 406-994-4780 (work), 406-586-7614 (home)

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