Question:

BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies? I read somewhere that they emit a mild toxin into the water which repels the fish.  They hang out in groups because then there is a higher concentration of the toxin, providing a higher level of safety.

Oh, she’s talking about water striders! I thought she was talking about midges. Kevin’s right. Water striders are toxic. I remember last year at the San Juan Clave there were lots of midges in the eddies and other slackwater, but the fish were ignoring them. I wondered why, and still do. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies? I read somewhere that they emit a mild toxin into the water which repels the fish.  They hang out in groups because then there is a higher concentration of the toxin, providing a higher level of safety.

Thank you.  That sounds right.  I know they’re not fast, as I’ve always been easily able to hand catch one.   — rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

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BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies?  

I understood that these were just not a favorite food of trout…being that they’re as hard as peanuts.  In NJ, those and skating spiders are not eaten by trout in any waters that I know of.

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One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable?

I’m loving trying to do it for drys or surface lures, but I can’t bring myself to feel that anything but a really dead bug will drift fairly freely, and even that bug will bounce into and off of things, including the bottom if using an under surface fly / lure. BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies?  I don’t see them much in water where other varieties of decent sized game fish are around or else they stay so shallow that nothing big can get them.  Is it the Monarch butterfly sort of thing in the water? — rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

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One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable? I’m loving trying to do it for drys or surface lures, but I can’t bring myself to feel that anything but a really dead bug will drift fairly freely, and even that bug will bounce into and off of things, including the bottom if using an under surface fly / lure.

I kind of hate to post this, because I’m such a "fucking putz" at presenting nymphs compared to people like Willi and Bruce, but here’s my understanding of the theory. There’s something called the "turnover point." When you cast your nymph out, in the normal scheme of things, you should try to get your indicator upstream of the nymph. The current on the surface carries the indicator downstream faster than the deep-drifting nymph. Upstream mends can help, but you risk pulling the fly right out of the trouts’ mouths. There is a point — the "turnover" point — when the nymph is just below the indicator. This is when it’s doing its best rendition of a "dead drift." If you know where the fish are, try to make that the turnover point. BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies?  I don’t see them much in water where other varieties of decent sized game fish are around or else they stay so shallow that nothing big can get them.  Is it the Monarch butterfly sort of thing in the water?

Good question. I think it’s because trout are wary. They don’t want to expose themselves to predators in shallow water when there’s plenty of stuff to eat in safer places. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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There is a point — the "turnover" point — when the nymph is just below the indicator. This is when it’s doing its best rendition of a "dead drift." If you know where the fish are, try to make that the turnover

point. According to Borger, the indicator is more of a drift indicator than strike indicator.  He says if your indicator is drifting as fast as the surface current and your nymph is near the bottom, your nymph is probably dragging. A split shot will help slow it down.  I suppose this would be past the "turnover point" you describe.

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According to Borger, the indicator is more of a drift indicator than strike indicator.  He says if your indicator is drifting as fast as the surface current and your nymph is near the bottom, your nymph is probably dragging. A split shot will help slow it down.  I suppose this would be past the "turnover point" you describe.

Even using the most thought out or "best" combination of weight, leader length etc. there will usually only be a small portion of your drift where the fly is truly approaching a dragfree drift. Like Steve said, you want to try and have this "good" part of the drift in the area that you think holds fish. The deeper the water, overall, the more pronounced this is. You can get more instances of a dragfree drift through mending, but because of the varied currents, it impossible to get a dragfree drift throughout the drift. It’s often difficult to get a dragfree drift with a dry fly. With a dry you can see what’s going on and with a dry, you’re essentially only dealing with a flat plane or two dimensions. With a sunken nymph, in most situations, you have to make inferences about what’s going on with your fly and you’re dealing with three dimensions. MUCH more difficult but fortunately for us, I think the fish are more tolerant of drag with a nymph. Willi

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BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies?

Probably because they are too difficult for the trout to catch. They would experience a net loss in calories because of the energy expended in trying to catch them. Game fish are instinctively aware of the energy/food value relationship, and tend to feed accordingly. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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With a sunken nymph, in most situations, you have to make inferences about what’s going on with your fly and you’re dealing with three dimensions. MUCH more difficult but fortunately for us, I think the fish are more tolerant of drag with a nymph.

        and i suspect that this is because many of the insects we are attempting to imitate with nymphs are alive, and move upwards and from side to side as they attempt to reach the surface, as opposed to the nearly motionless float of duns and spinners. wayno (lifelong reader of field&stream)

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BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies?

I read somewhere that they emit a mild toxin into the water which repels the fish.  They hang out in groups because then there is a higher concentration of the toxin, providing a higher level of safety. Kevin — Check out the Pike Clave Website: <http://www.misu.nodak.edu/~vang/PikeClave/

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries       95% Nymphs       95% Wets       40% Streamers      10% Your percentage for nymphs is surprising to me.  Do you usually let them swing across at the end of the dragfree part of the drift?  I take many fish on nymphs, especially BH PTs, on the rising part of the swing–almost as many as when I fish traditional wets (soft hackles, etc.) this way.

    What I really meant to say was, 95% of the time I nymph I *really* try for a dead drift. The other 5% of the time is when I’m moving (stumbling) upstream, dragging the thing behind me, and some inconsiderate trout bites it.

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Willi asks: What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for:

 Dries (over 90)  Nymphs ( not sure, probably most; 75?)  Wets (less than 10)  Streamers (less than 5) — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries Nymphs Wets Streamers My estimates: Dries: 90 Nymphs: 80 Wets: 50 Streamers: 20

Dries: definitely in the 90+% range during most mayfly hatches. During stonefly hatches, however, or even when I fish a hopper during terrestrial season, I twitch my fly when it’s drifting. Granted, I attempt for it to be subtle, and only a movement every couple of feet or so, but a lot of the hits come right at the twitch. Nymphs: I’d like to think that ALL my fish hit during drag free drift but I think that’s impossible to do all the time. I’d rank it there around 75%. Wets: When I fish them, which isn’t that often, they are moving for sure. 25%. Streamers: Practically all my fish come during the strip or the swing. I do pick up fish occasionally during a drag-free drift but I don’t fish a streamer that often that way. 10% — Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

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Dries: definitely in the 90+% range during most mayfly hatches. During stonefly hatches, however, or even when I fish a hopper during terrestrial season, I twitch my fly when it’s drifting. Granted, I attempt for it to be subtle, and only a movement every couple of feet or so, but a lot of the hits come right at the twitch.

I concur with this. Another "action" technique I especially like is skittering a caddis imitation through shallow, pocket water. Not sure if it is more effective than just a drag free drift but it sure produces some exciting takes. Streamers: Practically all my fish come during the strip or the swing. I do pick up fish occasionally during a drag-free drift but I don’t fish a streamer that often that way. 10%

I’m not a very able streamer fisherman but I frequently cast up and across with a streamer and let it drift down pretty much drag free to allow it to sink. I have taken some fish during this "drag free" part of the drift. Peter? Willi

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Dries: definitely in the 90+% range during most mayfly hatches. During stonefly hatches, however, or even when I fish a hopper during terrestrial season, I twitch my fly when it’s drifting. Granted, I attempt for it to be subtle, and only a movement every couple of feet or so, but a lot of the hits come right at the twitch. I concur with this. Another "action" technique I especially like is skittering a caddis imitation through shallow, pocket water. Not sure if it is more effective than just a drag free drift but it sure produces some exciting takes.

A very fun hatch on the Clark Fork is a #14 olive caddis, a ‘green rock worm’, IIRC. A free-living caddis. Use a LaFontaine-style (God rest his soul) emerging caddis fished just under the surface film down and across or just straight down. If the fly is making a ‘V’ they don’t seem to want it. But if you get it to still be twitching & dragging, literally just under the surface, they wack it pretty hard. There is a particular hole on the CF that really can only best be fished with an almost straight down approach with this method, but right at dusk on a mid-July evening… oh boy! Streamers: Practically all my fish come during the strip or the swing. I do pick up fish occasionally during a drag-free drift but I don’t fish a streamer that often that way. 10% I’m not a very able streamer fisherman but I frequently cast up and across with a streamer and let it drift down pretty much drag free to allow it to sink. I have taken some fish during this "drag free" part of the drift. Peter?

I must amend to my streamer statement above that most of my streamer fishing is done from a boat. With a good oarsman at the helm, you can get some amazingly good presentations that can cover a lot of good water. — Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dries: definitely in the 90+% range during most mayfly hatches. During stonefly hatches, however, or even when I fish a hopper during terrestrial season, I twitch my fly when it’s drifting. Granted, I attempt for it to be subtle, and only a movement every couple of feet or so, but a lot of the hits come right at the twitch. I concur with this. Another "action" technique I especially like is skittering a caddis imitation through shallow, pocket water. Not sure if it is more effective than just a drag free drift but it sure produces some exciting takes. Streamers: Practically all my fish come during the strip or the swing. I do pick up fish occasionally during a drag-free drift but I don’t fish a streamer that often that way. 10% I’m not a very able streamer fisherman but I frequently cast up and across with a streamer and let it drift down pretty much drag free to allow it to sink. I have taken some fish during this "drag free" part of the drift. Peter? Willi

I rarely fish streamers on the dead drift though it can be a useful imitation of a dead or dying minnow with the right pattern.  I tried one day for steelhead using a small, weighted streamer on the dead drift and ended up with a bunch of bugle trout.  They obviously feed on the dead.  I’ve also had carp and smallies suck in streamers when I’ve been counting the fly down on the sink, while fishing in still water. I know that you know this Willi, but as a general comment  . . . About drag for dries, nymphs, and wets – I try to get the situation right for the insect that’s active.  One example – on Whiteman’s Creek, it was Hendrickson time but there was nothing in the air.  I was dead drifting a H. nymph by a log jam in fairly deep water and was batting a fat zero.  Then I remembered that Hendrickson nymphs migrate to shallow, slow water to hatch.  I was standing on the inside of a bend in shallow, slow water so I slowly retrieved my H. nymph along the bottom toward me and picked up a 12" rainbow on the first try.  A few more casts picked up some more fish.   Some mayfly nymphs and caddis pupae are very active swimmers and some mayfly emergers change into adult form a foot or so below the surface before swimming up with their wings (e.g. Dark Hendricksons.)  Many caddis do the same and with some species, the gas they generate causes them to rocket up.  As caddis have micro hairs on their wings they can fly off immediately on emergence whereas mayflies usually need to dry their wings first resulting in lots of fluttering.  Some caddis skitter across the surface before flying off and a few stillwater caddis will skate on the surface all the way to the shore.  When egg laying, some caddis and mayflies dap their eggs on the surface while other caddis and mayflies dive, penetrating the meniscus and laying their eggs on the bottom before swimming back up and flying off (or dying in the mayfly case.)  Small trout will often leap out of the water after dapping egg layers while others actively chase the divers. None of this behaviour can be imitated by a dead drift. Moral:  Know the behaviour of the bug.  Drag is not always your enemy – especially when it’s deliberate. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable? What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries Nymphs Wets Streamers My estimates: Dries: 90 Nymphs: 80 Wets: 50 Streamers: 20 Willi

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One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable? What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries … My estimates: Dries: 90

When people talk about "educated" fish, I think recognizing a dragfree drift is the piscine equivalent of the PhD. I also think it’s highly dependent on the particular watershed. Some places, relatively sterile mountain streams for instance, you can catch a fish with just about any sort of drift at all. On a heavily fished spring creek I’d say that the percentage of fish I take with a dragfree drift is for all intents and purposes 100%. — Ken Fortenberry

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One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable?

Well, IMO, the term "drag free" drift is the wrong term to use for _teaching_ beginners, although _presenting_ in such fashion, is, to me, different than _fishing_ a fly, even if the take occurs within a second or two of presentation.  What is important as to _fishing_ is to not appear so unnatural as to either confuse, and therefore, "spook," a fish or simply telegraph that an offering isn’t food. Granted, this often means no unnatural drag, which is often "drag free" and likely, most experienced fishers know this and use the term "drag free" as a catch-all term.  But I think it does beginners a disservice to teach absolutes (take "the wrist must always be locked or you are casting improperly" training many get, for example) as being an absolute success/failure type of situation. What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: My estimates: Dries: 90 Nymphs: 80 Wets: 50 Streamers: 20

Hmm…I thought a little about it, and I can’t come up with any numbers beyond mere WAGs.  Maybe to my detriment, I don’t seem to take note of this type of data in such a way to be able to quantify it. I’m not suggesting that doing so is improper, just that I don’t.  Or maybe I do take subconscious note, but it has become one of those "I don’t know why I do it that way, I just do" things.   But if forced to make a WAG, I’d say dries, about like your number, wets, about 80-90, and streamers, upwards of 0, but less than 10 <G (simply due to the way I <mostly fish streamers, they wouldn’t be doing much "drifting," drag-free or otherwise, as I take your meaning of "drifting.") TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Willi

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One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable? What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries  

have to say 99%  Worked dries are a minor tactic for me. Nymphs  

couldn’t possibly tell with the deep nymphs, but certainly to shallow sighted fish 100% Wets

70% Streamers

10% Steve

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What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries       95% Nymphs       95% Wets       40% Streamers

     10%

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What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries       95% Nymphs       95% Wets       40% Streamers      10%

Your percentage for nymphs is surprising to me.  Do you usually let them swing across at the end of the dragfree part of the drift?  I take many fish on nymphs, especially BH PTs, on the rising part of the swing–almost as many as when I fish traditional wets (soft hackles, etc.) this way.   JR

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One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable? My estimates: Nymphs: 80

The more I think about nymphing, the harder it is to believe that a drag free drift happens very often.  Think how difficult it can be with dry flies – in 2 dimensions.  Nymphing is in 3 dimensions, so the problems you have with a dry fly drift are magnified.  Finally, add in the fact that the water slows near the bottom of the river where we often fish nymphs, and it’s a wonder we ever catch a fish. I conclude 2 things: – we are not always getting a drag free drift, but many nymphs do move around under water under their own power.  Sometimes drag simulates this. – there are so many swirling currents in "mixed water" (near bottom rocks and obstructions), that even the trout can’t always detect drag underwater.  Even natural nymphs move in randomly changing ways in some of the "micro currents". There must be places where the flow is constant and trout can detect drag, but there must be places where it’s not, too.  You can probably convince yourself of this by tossing little things into turbulent water several times and watching how they drift differently each time.

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One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable?

An interesting question, and one I have no idea of the answer.   One thing RDean said tweaked my though process however, and I began thinking not in terms of drag, but time as measurement.   I’m actually amazed at how many of the fish I catch hit the fly within a couple seconds of it hitting the water.   That probably means I suck at drag free drift.   I’m also amazed at how fast the fish can get there.   Unless I’m dropping it right on his nose, those guys really cover some ground, so to speak.   On occasions where flows are simple enough, I do catch some farther down the drift, but generally if I don’t have a take in the first 5 sec., I’m not going to get one. Joe F.

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Question:

There are some theories based on comparative analysis of DNA from rainbows native to this region versus that from rainbows native further north which point at them possibly being genetically the least changed and therefore the oldest. This is alluded to by Loev in his book "Flyfishing For Sharks."

Someone once told me that rainbow trout originated on the Pacific coast of Siberia. This guy is an outfitter on the Kamchatka Peninsula, so I took it with a grain of salt (bullshit detectors at work, Wayno , but it’s an interesting idea. I’m pretty sure that rainbows are native to Siberia, so there’s no reason they might not have originated there rather than in North America. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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I’m pretty sure that rainbows are native to Siberia, so there’s no reason they might not have originated there rather than in North America.

Rainbows originated in the North Pacific basin, along with cutts and Pacific salmon. They were first classified by a Swedish scientist studying fish from Kamchatka, but there is no real evidence that they actually evolved there.

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Someone once told me that rainbow trout originated on the Pacific coast of Siberia. This guy is an outfitter on the Kamchatka Peninsula, so I took it with a grain of salt (bullshit detectors at work, Wayno , but it’s an interesting idea. I’m pretty sure that rainbows are native to Siberia, so there’s no reason they might not have originated there rather than in North America.

The Russians certainly think this.  There are even some that think there’s evidence Oncorhynchus sp. as a group originated there.  The evidence is purely phenotypic, though, and they concede the evidence admits other possibilities.  Go to: http://www.psmfc.org/workshops/shconf98.html and scroll down to the last abstract, "The Diversity of Pacific Trouts in Kamchatkan Water Bodies". A "final" answer will probably have to await complete sequencing of the DNA from a number of native populations across the entire range of the species.  That’s no doubt a long way off.  There’s a lot of research being done on the genetics of rainbow trout (a complete nucleotide sequence for mitochondrial DNA was published in ‘95).  Much, probably most, of it is on hatchery and/or introduced populations rather than native ones. JR

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… a complete nucleotide sequence for mitochondrial DNA was published in ‘95) …

Datapoint – within each cell of a human, there is one strand of mitochondrial DNA and 23 pairs (46 strands) of nuclear DNA. For salmon/trout, there is again just one strand of mitochondrial DNA but anywhere from ~26 to 39 pairs of nuclear DNA. The mitochondrial DNA is interesting because it is passed down maternally, so it is useful for tracking lineage. It is also the case that it is only ~16,500 base pairs (roughly letters) long and not highly variable. Nuclear DNA (also called genomic or genetic DNA) on the other hand is passed down from both parents, is constantly mixed up in each individual, and is really the stuff that controls who/what each of us is and or could be. In humans, genetic DNA represents roughly 3 billion base pairs, and in salmon/trout, roughly 2.4 billion base pairs. Many fish studies to date have tried to draw conclusions from the easier-to-work-with mitochondrial DNA, but the really interesting results will come from an in-depth study of the nuclear DNA.  As of last year, the more advanced studies going on in the Columbia Basin were drawing conclusions based on 17/1000 of 1% of the nuclear DNA. Thomas Gilg

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Steelhead trout originated in Southern California … or points south in Mexico. San Diego county drainages had steelhead and salmon runs as late as the 1940’s. Recently, steelhead were discovered in San Mateo creek, just north of Camp Pendleton in San Diego county, and efforts are underway to return this stream to a viable steelhead fishery.  (A very uphill battle!) If you live in the San Diego/Orange County area and would like to participate in a ‘Camping/Cleanup" being conducted on September 8 and 9 (no fishing, strictly a habitat improvement mission), send me email and I’ll send you the details. FiddleAway

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Steelhead trout originated in Southern California … or points south in Mexico.

?? JR

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Steelhead trout originated in Southern California … or points south in Mexico. ??

At least when the last ice age retreated 10-13,000 years ago, there were ice sheets on both sides of the Columbia River, hence the Columbia is where salmon held over during the last ice age, and once the ice retreated, those salmon spread north and south to their current range. Going back in time, it would be interesting where else salmon many have "held over" and "originated". –tg

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Steelhead trout originated in Southern California … or points south in Mexico. ?? JR

There are some theories based on comparative analysis of DNA from rainbows native to this region versus that from rainbows native further north which point at them possibly being genetically the least changed and therefore the oldest. This is alluded to by Loev in his book "Flyfishing For Sharks." Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (650)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971          

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There are some theories based on comparative analysis of DNA from rainbows native to this region versus that from rainbows native further north which point at them possibly being genetically the least changed and therefore the oldest. This is alluded to by Loev in his book "Flyfishing For Sharks."

That’s interesting. I’ll steal a glance at that section of the book on my next visit to Borders, if they haven’t gone and sold it yet. (Sorry, Rich). Still, even if southern stocks of native rainbows are the oldest, it doesn’t necessarily mean that those stocks were the first to adopt anadromy. FiddleAway:  Do folks know where the steelhead "discovered" in Mateo Creek came from?  Are they strays or what?  Also, if you haven’t yet seen it, you might be interested in: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/species/steelhead/ JR

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Michael McGuire There are some theories based on comparative analysis of DNA from rainbows native to this region versus that from rainbows native further north which point at them possibly being genetically the least changed and therefore the oldest. This is alluded to by Loev in his book "Flyfishing For Sharks."

One theory is that Colorado Cutts are the grandaddies of the west coast trout strains.  The theory is that seagoiong cutts migrated into the Sea of Cortez and down the east coast of Baja, when the latter had a much wetter climate. Eventually these strains migrated down around Cabo and up the Pacific Coast, becoming the Steelhead/Rainbows we know today. The sourthern steelhead eventually developed a tolerance for warmer waters and a life cycle that could tolerate their home streams not being open to the sea every year. As I said before, salmon and steelhead were caught in San Diego county through the 1940’s (maybe later).  There is currently a trout fishery in Mexico on the Pacific side of its central mountain range.  The Melling Ranch is a commercial outfit that caters to people who wish to try this fishery … these trout are not seagoing trout, however. Today, there are still a few steelhead that return to Malibu Creek just north of LA.  At one time, NMFS had set Malibu as the southernmost point for giving special protection status to the fishery.  They’ve balked at extending the protective unit as far as San Mateo creek on the border of Orange/San Diego county, but DNA evidence has shown the trout found there to be a unique strain of southern steelhead.  Not sure what the current legal status is.  I think NMFS is still dragging its heels, but local clubs and conservation associations are continuing to push for restoration of this fishery. Hence, the clean up. FiddleAway

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John Russell  wrote FiddleAway:  Do folks know where the steelhead "discovered" in Mateo Creek came from?  Are they strays or what?  Also, if you haven’t yet seen it, you might be interested in:

The folks I talked to pretty much subscribe to the theory I posted in another response. The study of the creek ensued after trout where caught in its upper reaches. Fin clippings from some 40 odd individuals showed that all of the trout were in the same, 2 year old, generation.  This fact correlated to a heavier winter, two years prior, that had opened up the mouth of the Creek to the ocean. DNA analysis ruled out any relation to stocked strains.  These were natural fish that chose to migrate into the creek from the ocean. FiddleAway

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John Russell  wrote FiddleAway:  Do folks know where the steelhead "discovered" in Mateo Creek came from?  Are they strays or what?  Also, if you haven’t yet seen it, you might be interested in: The folks I talked to pretty much subscribe to the theory I posted in another response.

You’ll have to excuse me if I seem dense, but in your response to Michael (which is the only other one I’ve seen on my server, and I’m assuming is the one you mean), you only say that "DNA evidence has shown the trout found there to be a unique strain of southern steelhead."   The study of the creek ensued after trout where caught in its upper reaches. Fin clippings from some 40 odd individuals showed that all of the trout were in the same, 2 year old, generation.  This fact correlated to a heavier winter, two years prior, that had opened up the mouth of the Creek to the ocean. DNA analysis ruled out any relation to stocked strains.  These were natural fish that chose to migrate into the creek from the ocean.

So you’re saying that these are resident San Mateo rainbows that two years ago, for the first time in decades (or longer) migrated to sea–which is not at all impossible.  Or, in other words, that they are *not* strays from a neighboring population (either wild or stocked). Here’s the reason I asked (taken from the comments of the Southern California Steelhead Recovery Coalition to NMFS proposed extension of the S. Cal Steelhead ESU): "Although steelhead are known to have well-developed homing abilities (see P. B. Moyle, Inland fishes of California, [1976]), it is also known that southern steelhead commonly stray from their natal streams. This straying may be selectively advantageous because it would allow spawners to opportunistically utilize more favorable streams when their natal streams dried up or were blocked.  (See P. Higgins, Southern California Steelhead Recovery Assessment [1991]). An additional feature of southern steelhead is that they ‘miraculously’ reappeared in large spawning runs when flows became suitable in streams that had been dry or otherwise inaccessible during the previous one or more years. The implication is that streams within the historic range of the Southern California Steelhead ESU that are currently unoccupied may be rediscovered by steelhead at anytime. These unoccupied streams are likely to be discovered when habitat conditions in currently occupied streams are less favorable, indicating that all of the historical range of the Southern California Steelhead ESU is essential for the survival and recovery of this ESU." There’s a larger issue at stake here than the fate of the San Mateo population, as important as that is. JR

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So you’re saying that these are resident San Mateo rainbows that two years ago, for the first time in decades (or longer) migrated to sea–which is not at all impossible.  Or, in other words, that they are *not* strays from a neighboring population (either wild or stocked).

No.  I haven’t heard of any evidence for that.  The DNA evidence shows that these trout are related to other southern steelhead. However, I’d be surprised if there aren’t at least anecdotal reports of people catching steelhead in San Mateo creek earlier in the century when all of the drainages in San Diego county were less impacted by development.  This would be consistent with the passage you quoted from the SCSRC. There’s a larger issue at stake here than the fate of the San Mateo population, as important as that is.

I agree, if you are talking about Southern Steelhead in general as the ‘larger issue’. FiddleAway

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One theory is that Colorado Cutts are the grandaddies of the west coast trout strains.  … An interesting theory…I have not read that one.  

I haven’t either.  I have to admit, I am passing on information I got from someone I know who I take to be well informed on the subject. FiddleAway

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One theory is that Colorado Cutts are the grandaddies of the west coast trout strains.  The theory is that seagoiong cutts migrated into the Sea of Cortez and down the east coast of Baja, when the latter had a much wetter climate. Eventually these strains migrated down around Cabo and up the Pacific Coast, becoming the Steelhead/Rainbows we know today.

An interesting theory…I have not read that one.  My understanding is that the rainbow and cutthroat ancestral lines diverged perhaps as long ago as the Pliocene, and then each ancestral line diverged again to become the species/subspecies that we find today (redband and coastal rainbows and the various subspecies of cutts). Interestingly enough, the southernmost known species of salmonids occurring in watersheds that drain to the Pacific (the Mexican Golden Trout, Apache Trout, and Gila Trout) all appear to be more closely related to rainbows than to cutts.  I would expect the reverse to be true if Colorado River cutts represent the ancestral strain.

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At least when the last ice age retreated 10-13,000 years ago, there were ice sheets on both sides of the Columbia River, hence the Columbia is where salmon held over during the last ice age, and once the ice retreated, those salmon spread north and south to their current range. Going back in time, it would be interesting where else salmon many have "held over" and "originated".

Actually, there appear to have been perhaps 4 evolutionary lines of Rainbow (or Rainbow ancestors) in the Sea of Cortez during the four Pleistocene glacial maxima.  These evolutionary lines are thought to be the source of Apache trout, Gila trout, Mexican Golden trout, and several other unclassified strains (if not distinct species) in the Sierra Madre Occidental range in Mexico.

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Hi John, there is a great deal of help available on the net.  A couple of these sites should be of considerable help to you with basic stuff. Most of them have specific beginners sections.  If you have trouble with any of the terms etc, then just post to the group again, somebody will help you. Here are the URL

Question:

What is the web address for this disscusion

group. I am getting rid of my web tv. and can not live without reading the posts on ROFF. If it isn’t available on a computer, where

can i get my ROFF fix? web tv dosn’t list an addy for ROFF, just

says web tv network. Thanks Let me first say congratulations in deciding to get rid of web-tv. Secondly, you can read and post on this and

other news groups at www.deja.com.  It is a free web-based news

service.  One of the best parts of www.deja.com is the search options.

You can search old posts or even other posters.  It becomes very handy

ammunition when you’re in an argument with someone.  It’s been used

against me several times. — Vern My ROFF page:

http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ ROFFintro.html "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

Thanks guys i have found it now. Thanks again             sYc427 Before you buy.

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Cool.  Looks like you’re all set up on www.deja.com with a new handle as well.  :-)  I’m glad it’s working. — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

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What is the web address for this disscusion group. I am getting rid of my web tv. and can not live without reading the posts on ROFF. If it isn’t available on a computer, where can i get my ROFF fix???? web tv dosn’t list an addy for ROFF, just says web tv network. Thanks

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What is the web address for this disscusion group. I am getting rid of my web tv. and can not live without reading the posts on ROFF. If it isn’t available on a computer, where can i get my ROFF fix???? web tv dosn’t list an addy for ROFF, just says web tv network.

This isn’t a "web" site – it’s a Usenet group. When you subscribe to an internet service provider they will let you know where to point your news reader application to find their (and hence your) news server. Once you’ve gotten that information you should be able to find rec.outdoors.fishing.fly and add it to your list of subscribed groups. The alternative is to use one of the web-based usenet services, which grab usenet posts and archive them so you can access them via a browser. Slower and usually more cumbersome than the more direct approach, but this is a popular solution with AOL users (who are otherwise stuck with an atrocious usenet service)… Cheers. /daytripper

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When you subscribe to an internet service provider they will let you know where to point your news reader…

heh heh, I *knew* someone was gonna say that The alternative is to use one of the web-based usenet services, which grab usenet posts and archive them so you can access them via a browser. Slower and usually more cumbersome than the more direct approach, but this is a popular solution with AOL users (who are otherwise stuck with an atrocious usenet service)…

Doesn’t everyone use www.deja.com or other for searching archives? Regards, Jeff

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What is the web address for this disscusion group. I am getting rid of my web tv. and can not live without reading the posts on ROFF. If it isn’t available on a computer, where can i get my ROFF fix? web tv dosn’t list an addy for ROFF, just says web tv network. Thanks

Let me first say congratulations in deciding to get rid of web-tv. Secondly, you can read and post on this and other news groups at www.deja.com.  It is a free web-based news service.  One of the best parts of www.deja.com is the search options.  You can search old posts or even other posters.  It becomes very handy ammunition when you’re in an argument with someone.  It’s been used against me several times. — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

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Question:

my week-long sabbatical in the blue ridge ends today, but i leave with more experience in the streams i love and having developed a better friendship with Walt Winter of ezflyfish.com..

Appreciate the reports, Jeff.  I think Tom Brown was up that way this weekend as well.  Fond memories of the Great North State……. Mark Faulkner

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Appreciate the reports, Jeff.  I think Tom Brown was up that way this weekend as well.  Fond memories of the Great North State……. Mark Faulkner

I wanted to go this weekend, but couldn’t get a dog sitter.  Probably just as well, there would have been more witnesses.  NEXT weekend – now that’s a different story.  I’m heading over on Friday and, if I make it back home, I’ll post an unambiguous, unfettered, true report of the ensuing activities (depending on circumstances and to the extent that my attorney allows). Tom — Tom Brown The Signal Group Wake Forest, NC HEATHEN, n. A benighted creature who has the folly to worship something that he can see and feel.                – Ambrose Bierce: The Devil’s Dictionary

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        my week-long sabbatical in the blue ridge ends today, but i leave with more experience in the streams i love and having developed a better friendship with Walt Winter of ezflyfish.com…walt martyred himself to fishing with me during these last 3 days, braving the wrath of his lovely spouse Marie and delaying the demands of his business until the late evening hours.           The first 3 days, i fished my usual spots.           one stream i consider "my" stream because of its closeness to my cabin, because i fish it every time i’m in the area hoping to get to know its entire length eventually, and because it always yields me a fish or two or several. it holds only wild browns and is overlooked by many of the fishing population (spinning and fly) because of its location and lower elevation (1400 feet). still, it has all of the characteristics of streams i love to hike and fish…wildlife (turkey, deer, grouse, snakes)can be seen on occasions, wildflowers blooming from spring through late fall, and a nice combination of deep pools, pocket water, and riffles with some small waterfalls and large boulders or rock formations.  there is a small trail for about 4 miles running beside the stream, which allows access to various points and gives an ability to avoid other fishermen/women or to share a nice day with a group of friends by staggering entries. the browns in the stream are as beautiful, "spooky", and feisty as any i’ve caught in any of the wild trout waters of the state.  On this trip, i deceived several nice brownies with a dave’s hopper, parachute adams, hare’s ear, and prince nymph.  the largest was 10 1/2 inches…above average for me in this stream…with the others in the 6 – 9 inch range, which is the size of fish generally caught in non-hatchery waters. on one trip, i caught an 8 inch brown out of the tail of a deep pool, and a big brown of at least 15-18 inches chased after it as i was bringing it in, so there are larger fish waiting to be taken with skillful and patient persistence…that big brown provides an enduring optimism and goal for future pursuits on "my" stream… jeff

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Question:

Considering a 3-day solo (not counting dog) backpack trip mid june somewhere in the sierras.   Anyone with good experiences or heard of good areas for fishing and scenery?  Remote is good. thanks eric

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Hi Eric-    I agree, remote is good; however, with only three days remote won’t be very. For most of the range the season will be on your side. You’ll find lots of snow, many lakes will be frozen, and not many people will be hanging out.    Try the southern Sierra northeast of Bakersfield. Hike into the Golden Trout Wilderness near the Quaking Aspen campground and hike up the Kern River (either fork). Probably not much snow, nice scene, the fishing is okay and the terrain is easy enough to cover some distance in three days. Take a snake bite kit, I was bit while fishing the area a few years back and was greatful for the kit.    -Ralph Considering a 3-day solo (not counting dog) backpack trip mid june somewhere in the sierras.   Anyone with good experiences or heard of good areas for fishing and scenery?  Remote is good. thanks eric

Ralph Cutter, California School of Flyfishing. http://www.flyline.com

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Question:

Anyone know where i can download a fly fishing or trout screen saver for free? thanks grant

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kauffman streamborn web site – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone know where i can download a fly fishing or trout screen saver for free? thanks grant

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Question:

There is only one place in Guatemala, Iztapa. Pangas go for $300 per day with lunch and drinks, 31′ Bertrams around $800. There are hotels at around $15/ person, but they’re pretty scuzzy. You’re much better off with the best places at around $75 per night, double. You can get there by renting a car, a hired van or a bus, but you’ll waste a whole day by taking the bus. If you want more details call me at 516 668 2019. I can set up everything for you.   Gene Kelly

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I just got back from Guatemala and caught one sail on the fly rod. We caught eight on standard tackle the first day but we had my wifes cousins with us and I didn’t try the light tackle. The second and third days were slower and we had trouble with too many dolphin around. I arrange trips throughout Central America and can help you out. Give me a call at 516 668 2019 and I’ll give you all the details about the cheap way to go as well as the moderate way to go.                                 Gene Kelly

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Looking for any info on opportunities in Guat, particularly Pacific side. Would appreciate any advice, contaacts, starting points etc.

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: Looking for any info on opportunities in Guat, particularly Pacific side. : Would appreciate any advice, contaacts, starting points etc. Ken Johnson at Guatemala Unlimited has all the info and can make the arrangements. Guatemala Unlimited http://members.aol.com/guatemala1/html/guatunl.htm good luck, james

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Question:

As a promotional offering we are giving away blueblock sunglasses FREE! These glasses have the same type of lenses as the BLUEBLOCKERS(r) sold on TV for over $19.00 plus $5.00 shipping and handling. These glasses are GREAT for sports activities! You’ll find us at: http://www.flanet.com/~coolshad How can we do this? We are basically trying to attract attention to our new web site, and we are convinced you will like our more upscale glasses enough to make the "loss leader" worthwile for us. Give it a try!

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As a promotional offering we are giving away blueblock sunglasses FREE! These glasses have the same type of lenses as the BLUEBLOCKERS(r) sold on TV for over $19.00 plus $5.00 shipping and handling. These glasses are GREAT for sports activities! You’ll find us at: http://www.flanet.com/~coolshad

You Orvis people will stop at nothing…

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Has anybody ordered these? Let’s hear a report.

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writes: You Orvis people will stop at nothing…

That’s a bad wrap!  Orvis has nothing to do with it.                                         Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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Question:

     I am new to the Whidbey Island area and am looking for streams and rivers in the local vicinity to fly fish.  Any tips will be apprecated

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EJ–      Since you only mention streams and rivers, you may already know about Pass Lake, but just in case…      Pass Lake is just north of the Deception Pass bridge at the northern end of Whidbey.  It is fly fishing only and has some truly big trout.  We are at the best time of year to fish it (April and May).  You need a boat or tube and no motors are allowed.  It is heavily fished, but when you learn it you can do pretty well.        The best way to get info is to go to the lake and tell people you’re new and start asking questions.  Most will be happy to help you out.      There are lots of streams on the mainland not too far from you.  Best advice is to find a sporting goods/fly fishing shop and pick their brains.                                Welcome to Paradise,                                               Ed Morrison (Grizzly Hackle)

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