Question:

He just doesn’t like big trout when *I* catch them.

And don’t forget the pictures….  Those damn pictures!!!! — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

Response:

He just doesn’t like big trout when *I* catch them. And don’t forget the pictures….  Those damn pictures!!!!

Yeah, the poorly composed ones. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

And don’t forget the pictures….  Those damn pictures!!!!

Yeah, the poorly composed ones.<   And taken with an (ugh) digital camera.  <g   Harry  

Response:

now I’m not so sure that we shouldn’t dam the fuck out of Colorado. It’s not anything like watersheds with anadromous species. Horseshit. Explain please. Simple. Free flowing rivers are beautiful, natural things that aren’t improved by a concrete dam.

While I was referring to blockage of migration of anadromous species as farily sound ecological detriment to damming watercourse, you went another way. You cited the beauty of the free flowing rivers, to which there can be absolutely no doubt. This remains an irony however, given your original thread’s posit, that the river levels are down, very warm and fish kill is imminent. By your own description the beauty of nature left untamed must, therefore, include fish kill, drought and fire as a part of the composition. So let’s stop bitching. Let all of the fucking californimported fish die and we’ll just call it "part of the beauty of nature"?. And that, Willi, is fine by me. Wanna know something else that is beautiful, though, Willi ? (of course these things are probably best left up to eye of the beholder) wooden sailboats luffing in the calm of a fire orange sunset on the image that is a Dillon Lake, Colorado postcard. Your pal, — TBone

Response:

i am astonished that someone not directly involved in that conflict actually understands the enormous cost it has been to this country.

Not directly involved ? We are all directly involved, most people are just too stupid to recognize it. OBROFF: The helicopter made for some morose entertainment yesterday as it returned time and again for it’s bucket of water from Pinewood Reservoir. Spork, The Wonder Weiner Dog, and I went fishless. There are lakes in Colorado where the bag limits have been removed. They’re gonna dry up. Might as well harvest the meat that’s there. Your pal, — TBone

Response:

And don’t forget the pictures….  Those damn pictures!!!! Yeah, the poorly composed ones.<   And taken with an (ugh) digital camera.  <g  

The shame of it all… — I fly fish so therefore I am.

Response:

1. We get great tailwaters for fishing big trout.  It appears that Wolfgang liks BIG trout, so this would be a good benefit for travelling fly fisherman to Colorado.

He just doesn’t like big trout when *I* catch them. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Locally, the fishing is more like mid Summer than like runoff that would be typical for this time of year. My home river is warm enough to wade wet comfortably. During the heat of a warm day, the water is only cool. I’ve been fishing this stretch of river for fifteen years and conditions are the worst I’ve seen for this time of year. Although my home river is at low elevation, reports from across the State have echoed what I’m seeing here locally. I’m concerned about wide spread, heavy fish kills. Question for you guys in Montana. When you had your "drought" and fish kills were predicted, did they occur? If they did, what was the extent? Willi

Response:

I’m concerned about wide spread, heavy fish kills. Question for you guys in Montana. When you had your "drought" and fish kills were predicted, did they occur? If they did, what was the extent?

They predicted fish kills but were able to regulate the water well enough on most rivers that fish kills were minor from what I heard.  Thankfully I never saw any fish kills on any of the rivers I fish.  One of the biggest problems faced was enforcing the water rights because some people who were not entitled to any water were drawing water.  Some conservation groups were able to convince a few people with water rights not to take their full share of water in order to prevent major fish kills on the Gallatin and something similar was done on the Big Hole to avert disaster there.  Apparently it worked because they were especially proud of the job done on the Big Hole.  When Marshall Krasser came out and we fished the Big Hole, the river seemed to be in pretty good shape to me.  That was the first time I had fished that river, but there seemed to be plenty of fish in there.  I think the upper reaches of that river were the hardest hit though. Tailwaters were another story.  During the summer things were actually decent, but they dropped the flows way down in the winter and had winter fish kills on some rivers.  The second hand info I heard was that very young fish were the hardest hit when flows were dropped down to levels like 24 cfs (on the river where we resorted to streamers).  Haven’t fished that river lately and am curious to see how it faired. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Locally, the fishing is more like mid Summer than like runoff that would be typical for this time of year. My home river is warm enough to wade wet comfortably. During the heat of a warm day, the water is only cool. I’ve been fishing this stretch of river for fifteen years and conditions are the worst I’ve seen for this time of year. Although my home river is at low elevation, reports from across the State have echoed what I’m seeing here locally. I’m concerned about wide spread, heavy fish kills. Question for you guys in Montana. When you had your "drought" and fish kills were predicted, did they occur? If they did, what was the extent? Willi

Yes, there were a couple of years when we did have fish kill that I recall. I don’t know if they were "predicted" but during 1988 and again in 1994 as well as last year and the year before (2001 and 2000), drought warnings were out and it was "advised" that fishermen restrict their fishing to waters that  were not so hard hit with regard to flow and temperature. As far as last year goes, I don’t know yet if FWP really has a handle on whether or not we had any extensive fish kill. I’m certain there had to be some mortality but to what extent, I don’t think is known. I would venture to say that most fish that died, did so on account of the stress induced from fishing. It has been my policy to cancel trips when it gets so bad. I began this policy after my experiences in 1988. The last float I took fishermen on during that season, I distinctly remember a nice fish coming up to the fly, taking it, half-heartedly thrashing for a second or two, and then rolling over on its side and just skate across the surface as the guy reeled him in. As I recall, the water temp was between 72 and 75 degrees. It was that particular fish that made me realize that fishing when the conditions were such was just going to hurt the fishery. Of course, there were (and still are) plenty of guides and outfitters who still take their customers out, even at the expense of the resource. I can think of one who, when I cancelled a Smith river 5-day float (and many others were doing the same), due to extremely low water, he went ahead and took his people on the scheduled trip. The flow was below 100 cfs which, for the the Smith, is a trickle. I’m sure those people had just a lovely time on their 62-mile DRAG. Warren, got your email but haven’t had time to respond yet. I’m presently in Georgia visiting family and won’t be home till July 1. I’ll try to compose a response before then. Off to fish the Hiwassee in Tennessee next week. Any one got any advice for this river? Tight lines, Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

I’m concerned about wide spread, heavy fish kills.

Perhaps this periodic event explains the absence of indignious trout of any kind in the N. Platte drainage (prior to stocking activities) <?. TBone

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m concerned about wide spread, heavy fish kills. Question for you guys in Montana. When you had your "drought" and fish kills were predicted, did they occur? If they did, what was the extent? They predicted fish kills but were able to regulate the water well enough on most rivers that fish kills were minor from what I heard.  Thankfully I never saw any fish kills on any of the rivers I fish.  One of the biggest problems faced was enforcing the water rights because some people who were not entitled to any water were drawing water.  Some conservation groups were able to convince a few people with water rights not to take their full share of water in order to prevent major fish kills on the Gallatin and something similar was done on the Big Hole to avert disaster there.  Apparently it worked because they were especially proud of the job done on the Big Hole.

Unfortunately, that isn’t even an option in Colorado. We have very antiquated water laws that several groups are presently attempting to change.    If a rancher or farmer chooses not to use his allotment of water, in order to leave water in the river or for any other reason, he stands to lose the right to this water in future. The statute is counter conservation of water. The same thing could happen if farmer chose to use a more efficient irrigation system. As the law now stands, water rights must be used only for a "beneficial use." Leaving water in the stream or river for recreational purposes, for the benefit of the fishes, etc. is not considered to be a "beneficial use." This means that conservation groups or individuals can’t buy water rights or a farmer can’t denote or sell water in order to supplement stream flows. Neither of these things apply to Montana. Some groups in Montana have purchased water rights in some small streams in order to increase water levels in the streams so they can support the spawning runs that run up them from larger rivers and provide habitat for the fry. There has been several successful programs utilizing this approach. Willi

Response:

I’m concerned about wide spread, heavy fish kills. Perhaps this periodic event explains the absence of indignious trout of any kind in the N. Platte drainage (prior to stocking activities) <?.

That’s an interesting idea. A prolonged drought might have had that effect. The North Platte drainage is one of the few major drainages in the Rockies that didn’t support a population of indigenous trout that is now able to support a sustaining trout population. The present level of drought has the potential of being severely damaging to fish populations only because of irrigation usage. Willi

Response:

Unfortunately, that isn’t even an option in Colorado.

<snipped Are there any organizations trying to fix Colorado’s stream access and water rights laws?  If so, I suggest you start helping them out in any way you possibly can and also encouraging people you know from out of state who fish Colorado to get involved as well.  Sportsmen and anglers are a large group that can be very "political" when united under a common cause. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

Response:

The present level of drought has the potential of being severely damaging to fish populations only because of irrigation usage.

True, but the overall steady state regarding available water is definately enhanced by the water storage and diversion projects. I used to have anti-Two Forks propoganda on my truck, now I’m not so sure that we shouldn’t dam the fuck out of Colorado. It’s not anything like watersheds with anadromous species. The other side of me cheers for the drought and the fires. Too many damned people, maybe they’ll leave. Colorado is a beautiful and fragile state that is already collapsing under this burden. The drought, the fires, should only serve to remind us clearly of this fact. Yet, one (of many things) that has me absolutely pissed off at our Federal/State Governments is the fact that, in this country, we have not properly addressed basic infrastructure regarding water. The money spent on the war on drugs could have funded a major public works effort in this regard. We should have a water pipeline grid and huge underground storage system. People with substance abuse problems can build it (and their lives and self-esteem) instead of languishing behind bars on our nickel while the farmer goes broke, the cost of food soars, my lawn dies, etc. This is just one aspect of the real cost of the war on drugs. There are many, many more. Including, entirely, September 11th, 2001. IMO. — TBone

Response:

while the farmer goes broke, the cost of food

soars, my lawn dies, etc.<   Two outta three ain’t bad.   Harry TBone?  Meatloaf?  Hmmm!

Response:

while the farmer goes broke, the cost of food soars, my lawn dies, etc.< Two outta three ain’t bad.

No sir. Two outta three am bad. — TBone

Response:

http://wildlife.state.co.us/dowfish/index.asp  Prewitt Reservoir — Swimming, wading, boating, and fishing are banned at Prewitt State Wildlife Area until further notice due to a fish kill which is currently affecting the reservoir. This precautionary closure will stay in effect pending the diagnosis of the fish kill and recommendation by the Northeast Colorado Health Department. Fisheries experts believe the kill is being caused by a natural toxicity related to algae in the reservoir’s water. Closures do not apply to camping, wildlife watching, or hiking.

Response:

True, but the overall steady state regarding available water is definately enhanced by the water storage and diversion projects. I used to have anti-Two Forks propoganda on my truck,

I thought the fishermen fighting Two Forks was kind of weird. They wanted to protect their cherished Cheeseman Canyon from getting flooded although the reason why it is such a productive fishery is that it is a tailwater. now I’m not so sure that we shouldn’t dam the fuck out of Colorado. It’s not anything like watersheds with anadromous species.

Horseshit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yet, one (of many things) that has me absolutely pissed off at our Federal/State Governments is the fact that, in this country, we have not properly addressed basic infrastructure regarding water. The money spent on the war on drugs could have funded a major public works effort in this regard. We should have a water pipeline grid and huge underground storage system. People with substance abuse problems can build it (and their lives and self-esteem) instead of languishing behind bars on our nickel while the farmer goes broke, the cost of food soars, my lawn dies, etc. This is just one aspect of the real cost of the war on drugs. There are many, many more. Including, entirely, September 11th, 2001. IMO. — TBone

Response:

This is just one aspect of the real cost of the war on drugs. There are many, many more. Including, entirely, September 11th, 2001. IMO.

        i am astonished that someone not directly involved in that conflict actually understands the enormous cost it has been to this country. your friend in the old north state wayno

Response:

now I’m not so sure that we shouldn’t dam the fuck out of Colorado. It’s not anything like watersheds with anadromous species. Horseshit.

Explain please. TBone

Response:

now I’m not so sure that we shouldn’t dam the fuck out of Colorado. It’s not anything like watersheds with anadromous species. Horseshit. Explain please.

Perhaps dams are a good thing for fishing. 1. We get great tailwaters for fishing big trout.  It appears that Wolfgang liks BIG trout, so this would be a good benefit for travelling fly fisherman to Colorado. 2.  To create dams, it requires quite a bit of mining of limestone or similar to create the cement necessary.  Not only is limestone mined, but aggregate is also mined to mix with the lime to create the cement.   The by product of all these mines are nice urban, or semi-urban bass ponds and other warm water ponds that can be used for the hook and cooler crowd. — Welcome to Montana, now go home! (Bumpersticker)

Response:

Perhaps this periodic event explains the absence of indignious trout of any kind in the N. Platte drainage (prior to stocking activities) <?.

Doubtful.  A drought event of sufficient severity to completely eliminate trout from the North Platte system most likely would have had the same effect on other systems near by, yet there are indigenous trout in the general area.   It is far more likely that trout (cutts) never made it in to the North Platte system.

Response:

…….Too many damned people, maybe they’ll leave. Colorado is a beautiful and fragile state that is already collapsing under this burden……

I sense an opportunity to be a trend setter….a real leader….someone to look up to….just what you’ve always wanted. Wolfgang guilt debased the meal.

Response:

now I’m not so sure that we shouldn’t dam the fuck out of Colorado. It’s not anything like watersheds with anadromous species. Horseshit. Explain please.

Simple. Free flowing rivers are beautiful, natural things that aren’t improved by a concrete dam. You’re a Colorado resident. Some things you might be interested in: Only 10% of agricultural land is irrigated Agriculture uses 94+% of the water used in Colorado This means that 94+% of the water used by the entire State for ALL uses for ALL people, is used on only 10% of the farm and ranch land. Agriculture and agricultural related businesses employ 2% of the people. Agricultural operations generate just over 1% of the States GAP (These statistics are from AG pages not anti AG propaganda) I’m not anti agricultural. Like you, I’m sure, I’d much rather have the farmers and ranches than the urban sprawl that’s taking over Colorado’s Front Range. However, I think there are alternatives to building more dams. Colorado water law is VERY complex and I don’t pretend to understand much of it. However, it is very antiquated and there are some changes, IMO, that need to be made. The "use it or loss it" law that forces farmers and ranchers to use "their quota" whether they need it that year or not, is one example. This gives the farmer/rancher NO incentive to conserve water. In fact, they are penalized if they do because they will lose the right to future use of the amount of water they conserved and lose its monetary value. When home developments or cities need more water rights for their residents, I’d like to see at least some of this water come from fees they would pay to farmers/ranchers to buy some of their water rights and to pay for more efficient irrigation and delivery systems for the farmer/ranchers. The majority of irrigation done in Colorado is flood irrigation which is VERY wasteful and most of the distribution is in open canals. The developers would get their water, the farmers/ranchers would still have the water they need because of improved irrigation/distribution techniques and the farmer/ranchers would get money by selling some of their water rights because they wouldn’t need as much. Willi

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Question:

yep look at the forests in Alabama and you will see the great management of OUR forests that has robbed us and paid the timber industry. Pine trees

The majority of americans support being thinner, and yet the majority of americans are fatter than they should be.  That says something about the majority of americans.

Response:

Musty Ass has spoken.

Response:

\More like a ten year old, with no friends, and a ghetto blaster.\  I have had the pleasure of fishing with Muskie on several occasions, twice on the San Juan and once on the Kootenai.

I could not care less about his girlfriend or his fly-rods. The only thing I care about, is the fact that he costs me money with his constant Usenet abuse. The problem is solved for me at least. I have unsubscribed from rec.outdoors.fishing.fly  as it is simply too expensive to download all the rubbish. I will occasionally have a look in, using Google ( where I don

Question:

i have been fly fishing for a few years but have never really used buzzers!! i live in scotland uk and i would like any help on how to fish and use buzzers

Response:

i have been fly fishing for a few years but have never really used buzzers!! i live in scotland uk and i would like any help on how to fish and use buzzers

Buzzers are usually called midges or chironomids on this side of the pond, so doing this google search will turn up more information than you can possible need: http://www.google.com/search?q=flyfishing+buzzers+OR+chironomids Kevin

Response:

Nick Reeves writes: i have been fly fishing for a few years but have never really used buzzers!! i live in scotland uk and i would like any help on how to fish and use buzzers

If I remember correctly, your "buzzers" are our chironomids.  See this site: http://www.fineflies.com/Articles/chrinomid_technique.htm Dave

Response:

i have been fly fishing for a few years but have never really used buzzers!! i live in scotland uk and i would like any help on how to fish and use buzzers

some of the best information on fishing buzzers (or chironomids) can be found in the writings of brian chan of british columbia.  i’m sure an internet search about chironomid lake fishing in the western us and british columbia will lead to many excellent suggestions if finding the lake fishing books is difficult in scotland. i’m not a lake fisherman myself, so i don’t have the titles of books on the top of my head, but checking with amazon would probably give you the titles. chris

Response:

i have been fly fishing for a few years but have never really used buzzers!! i live in scotland uk and i would like any help on how to fish and use buzzers

    not a chance, bub.  unethical. your friend in the old north state wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

i have been fly fishing for a few years but have never really used buzzers!! i live in scotland uk and i would like any help on how to fish and use buzzers

Here is the list of pages that I have book marked: www.guidebc.com/flypatterns.html – scroll down to Chironomid patterns http://www.coastnet.com/~rpike/nov00.htm http://www.flyfishusa.com/flies/midges.htm http://www.sci.ouc.bc.ca/fwsc/iwalker/intpanis/ http://www.fishbc.com/adventure/angling/protalk/rowley/sinking.phtml http://www.sportfishingbc.com/fishing/flyfishing_midges.htm http://www.science.mcmaster.ca/Biology/Harbour/SPECIES/CHIRONO/HOME.html http://www.flyfisherbc.com/chironomidpatterns.html http://www.flyshop.com/bench/features/06-01Midges/frames.html http://www.telusplanet.net/public/cnangler/html/fom9798.htm#fom3 http://www.oppub.com/bcfroa/03fish/03methods.html http://www.fishbc.com/adventure/angling/protalk/chan/confession.phtml http://www.fineflies.com/Articles/chrinomid_technique.htm http://www.bcadventure.com/adventure/angling/bugs/chironomid/chironomid. phtml http://www.fishbc.com/adventure/angling/flies/chironomid/larva.phtml http://www.virtualflybox.com/swaps/chir.html http://www.fishing-in-wales.com/wildlife/insects/diptera/buzzer1.htm http://members.attcanada.ca/~aelliott/chironomid.html Some of these links are articles that describe methods, habitat, etc and others contain fly patterns.  Some of these have both.  Hope they help. — Warren www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

Response:

For a simple start: Take a dry fly that floats well and you think will catch fish.  Tie a length of appropriate size tipet for the size of the midge to the bend of the dry fly hook with an improved cinch knot.  Tie the midge so it trails about 10 inches (26 cm if Scotland is metric) in back of the dry fly.  Fish the dry fly.  Consider the dry fly both a lure and a bobber ( pardon me -"Strike Indicator"). Lou

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i have been fly fishing for a few years but have never really used buzzers!! i live in scotland uk and i would like any help on how to fish and use buzzers

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Question:

The 4th Court of Crim Appeals, SA,  has ordered a new trial on the grounds of "ineffective counsel."  It seems the defendant, accused of robbing a C-store, wore the same distinct shirt, with a picture of his dog, to voir dire, that he wore on the video, robbing the store, and his counsel’s failure to object was "i.c."

What a boob.   On the one hand, I don’t understand what is objectionable about it that leads to the i.c. basis.   I mean, the guy wore it volutarily and produced evidence "in plain sight".   No way even a competent defense attorney could have anticipated this.   (Apparently I didn’t learn much from the OJ trial.) OTOH, who’s to say he didn’t buy the shirt at Goodwill or find it in a dumpster. Can’t see how having the shirt months after the crime is much evidence (other than circumstantial) of anything.   If the police had found it in his posession the night of the crime, that’s one thing, but weeks or months later its trail is pretty stale IMHO. Also can’t swallow the "waste of tax dollars" assertion.   In a climate where so many are vocal about the government taking away our rights, isn’t it good to see a case where the government is protecting them?   Still, what a boob. Joe F.

Response:

The 4th Court of Crim Appeals, SA,  has ordered a new trial on the grounds of "ineffective counsel."  It seems the defendant, accused of robbing a C-store, wore the same distinct shirt, with a picture of his dog, to voir dire, ___that he wore on the video___, robbing the store, and his

counsel’s failure to object was "i.c." What a boob.   On the one hand, I don’t understand what is objectionable about it that leads to the i.c. basis.   I mean, the guy wore it volutarily and produced evidence "in plain sight".   No way even a competent defense attorney could have anticipated this.   (Apparently I didn’t learn much from the OJ trial.)

One of my points, in general. OTOH, who’s to say he didn’t buy the shirt at Goodwill or find it in a dumpster. Can’t see how having the shirt months after the crime is much evidence (other than circumstantial) of anything.   If the police had found it in his posession the night of the crime, that’s one thing, but weeks or months later its trail is pretty stale IMHO.

Pretty unlucky find, I’d say:  A guy who looks exactly like the accused dumping off the shirt, and our hapless accused being unlucky enough to buy/find it.  From what I’ve heard, this is one of those, "I’m not saying I didn’t do it, I did it, I’m just saying it wasn’t ‘fair’." Plus, the police didn’t find it, he produced it.  What’s he going to say, Mark Furrmann(sp?) dressed him? Also can’t swallow the "waste of tax dollars" assertion.   In a climate where so many are vocal about the government taking away our rights, isn’t it good to see a case where the government is protecting them?   Still, what a boob.

No, this is a waste.  He was a) stupid enough to rob a store at gunpoint, for money, b) stupid enough to prove himself guilty (or is that guilty enough to prove himself stupid? – either way…) TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Joe F.

Response:

(snip)  Besides, his lawyer probably *should* have told him how to dress as part of his job in this case, the guy wasn’t arrested for bitch slapping someone at a Mensa meeting, after all. — Charlie…

I don’t think bitch slapping at a Mensa meeting is a crime at all, Charlie. As to the case in question, I must cast my lot with the appeals court that reversed the conviction.  Whether it was intentional or unintentional, craftiness or stupidity, the essence of our system is that a trial in which a person’s liberty or life is at stake should be as fair as possible.  Hell, I think even the trial judge could have properly corrected this situation before it became a problem.  Someone mentioned this in a previous post, but in my mind most states are penny wise and pound foolish when it comes to assuring that all criminal defendants have competent counsel and related support for a defense.  Because it’s politically unpopular to provide such for indigent defendants, the resources are not allocated in the first instance; then, when the conviction is reversed the taxpayer pays all over again. Mark Faulkner

Response:

(snip)  Besides, his lawyer probably *should* have told him how to dress as part of his job in this case, the guy wasn’t arrested for bitch slapping someone at a Mensa meeting, after all. — Charlie… I don’t think bitch slapping at a Mensa meeting is a crime at all, Charlie.

OK, so that part is simple reflex, but… As to the case in question, I must cast my lot with the appeals court that reversed the conviction.  Whether it was intentional or unintentional, craftiness or stupidity, the essence of our system is that a trial in which a person’s liberty or life is at stake should be as fair as possible.  Hell, I think even the trial judge could have properly corrected this situation before it became a problem.  Someone mentioned this in a previous post, but in my mind most states are penny wise and pound foolish when it comes to assuring that all criminal defendants have competent counsel and related support for a defense.  Because it’s politically unpopular to provide such for indigent defendants, the resources are not allocated in the first instance; then, when the conviction is reversed the taxpayer pays all over again.

What?  Do you truly believe this?  Why is it encumbering to the people of Texas to defend such a person?   While I believe in the 5th Amendment, what possible defense is there against a guilty person’s own stupidity?  The goal of the system is (or at least should be) the truth, and we have it, and the defendant willingly and openly provided evidence.  The adversarial system wasn’t compromised, no abuse took place, there is nothing to correct.  What exactly wasn’t "fair"?   CDAs argue when the accused is in jailwear, so he got to wear his own stuff. Seemingly, under this theory, testimony regarding the fact the gun was found at his home should be disallowed because his counsel was too ineffective to tell him to get rid of it. R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Mark Faulkner

Response:

Shoot, Peter.  Somehow I can not see our esteemed roffian lawyers fishing with K-Mart blue light specials!  It is blaspheme, I tell ya…….  <g Louie, who don’t need to stinkin’ lawy…..errrrr.   Don’t wanna burn bridges here……

Our esteemed roffian lwayers would *never* make such an egregious error, maybe in their choice of fly or scotch perhaps, but never in a court room. Peter (sucking up big time)

Response:

Shoot, Peter.  Somehow I can not see our esteemed roffian lawyers fishing with K-Mart blue light specials!  It is blaspheme, I tell ya…….  <g Louie, who don’t need to stinkin’ lawy…..errrrr.   Don’t wanna burn bridges here…… Our esteemed roffian lwayers would *never* make such an egregious error, maybe in their choice of fly or scotch perhaps, but never in a court room. Peter (sucking up big time)

You misspelled "laywayers"… <G R

Response:

Our esteemed roffian lwayers

waylers, maybe? — Charlie…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What’s he going to say, Mark Furrmann(sp?) dressed him? LOL.   YEAH! That’s it! No, this is a waste.  He was a) stupid enough to rob a store at gunpoint, for money, b) stupid enough to prove himself guilty (or is that guilty enough to prove himself stupid? – either way…) Well, I gotta think he was convicted on a lot more than this dumb shirt.   His picture on the camera & I assume the eyewitness testimony of the clerk. Possibly fingerprints or other physical evidence.   However, your points above seem a circular argument.   He’s guilty because he has the shirt, and the shirt shouldn’t matter because he’s guilty anyway.   Frankly the shirt sounds like a red herring.   If counsel was otherwise competent and the evidence was otherwise conclusive, it does seem a waste of resources; but the rights of the accused are paramount in our system (that’s why Wayno can afford a T&T or two).   I like it that way in general, even when a specific case makes it difficult to remember.

I’m not sure what you mean by red herring, but if you mean it is simply a guilty man’s way of taking another bite, I agree.  To me, it is like someone who confesses (uncoerced), and then tries to "legal" their way out of it.  Further, I think the rights of the accused are important, but this isn’t protecting his rights against or in an adversarial system, perfect or imperfect.  It isn’t even "self-incrimination" in the 5th Amendment sense.  This is excusing his own stupidity: he’s guilty, but he’s stupid, and his lawyer _may_ be ineffective, but let’s start over with "better" counsel.  The DA and cops didn’t dress him, trick him into wearing it, plant it on him, or anything else. R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Joe F.

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Our esteemed roffian lwayers waylers, maybe? — Charlie…

don’t I get any points fro getting ‘egregious’ right? jeez, this is a tough croud. Peter

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don’t I get any points fro getting ‘egregious’ right? jeez, this is a tough croud.

fro? <g — Charlie…

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don’t I get any points fro getting ‘egregious’ right? jeez, this is a tough croud. fro? <g — Charlie…

For the "stuck in the seventies" lwayers… <G R

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[snip] This is excusing his own stupidity: he’s guilty, but he’s stupid, and his lawyer _may_ be ineffective, but let’s start over with "better" counsel.  The DA and cops didn’t dress him, trick him into wearing it, plant it on him, or anything else.

I don’t disagree, but I’m not sure you can carry ‘presumed innocence’ too far. Besides, his lawyer probably *should* have told him how to dress as part of his job in this case, the guy wasn’t arrested for bitch slapping someone at a Mensa meeting, after all. — Charlie…

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Peter Charles: I don’t know what our angling lawyers may think of this idea, but perhaps it would be appropriate in cases where a gross error by an officer of the court resulted in a costly delay or mistrial, that officer had to personally foot the bill for at least a portion of the court costs.  Might make some of the inattentive sit up and pay attention. Peter

Shoot, Peter.  Somehow I can not see our esteemed roffian lawyers fishing with K-Mart blue light specials!  It is blaspheme, I tell ya…….  <g Louie, who don’t need to stinkin’ lawy…..errrrr.   Don’t wanna burn bridges here……

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What’s he going to say, Mark Furrmann(sp?) dressed him?

LOL.   YEAH! That’s it! No, this is a waste.  He was a) stupid enough to rob a store at gunpoint, for money, b) stupid enough to prove himself guilty (or is that guilty enough to prove himself stupid? – either way…)

Well, I gotta think he was convicted on a lot more than this dumb shirt.   His picture on the camera & I assume the eyewitness testimony of the clerk. Possibly fingerprints or other physical evidence.   However, your points above seem a circular argument.   He’s guilty because he has the shirt, and the shirt shouldn’t matter because he’s guilty anyway.   Frankly the shirt sounds like a red herring.   If counsel was otherwise competent and the evidence was otherwise conclusive, it does seem a waste of resources; but the rights of the accused are paramount in our system (that’s why Wayno can afford a T&T or two).   I like it that way in general, even when a specific case makes it difficult to remember. Joe F.

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The 4th Court of Crim Appeals, SA,  has ordered a new trial on the grounds of "ineffective counsel."  It seems the defendant, accused of robbing a C-store, wore the same distinct shirt, with a picture of his dog, to voir dire, that he wore on the video, robbing the store, and his counsel’s failure to object was "i.c."  Well, maybe, but two things come to mind:  Shouldn’t the obvious guilt matter?  Punish the attorney, perhaps, but how effectively _can_ one defend such a person?  And, this is exactly the ridiculousness in the system that gets "the average Joe and Jane" so upset.  Unless the attorney dressed this guy, our tax dollars get to pay for another trial for a guilty man. R

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The 4th Court of Crim Appeals, SA,  has ordered a new trial on the grounds of "ineffective counsel."  It seems the defendant, accused of robbing a C-store, wore the same distinct shirt, with a picture of his dog, to voir dire, that he wore on the video, robbing the store, and his counsel’s failure to object was "i.c."  Well, maybe, but two things come to mind:  Shouldn’t the obvious guilt matter?  Punish the attorney, perhaps, but how effectively _can_ one defend such a person?  And, this is exactly the ridiculousness in the system that gets "the average Joe and Jane" so upset.  Unless the attorney dressed this guy, our tax dollars get to pay for another trial for a guilty man. R

True, it is very annoying to think of the wasted dollars and time involved but given the number of high profile cases being overturned by DNA evidence, (especially north of the border) where the quality of counsel was at best questionable, I think this is the price we have to pay to enshrine the concept in law. I don’t know what our angling lawyers may think of this idea, but perhaps it would be appropriate in cases where a gross error by an officer of the court resulted in a costly delay or mistrial, that officer had to personally foot the bill for at least a portion of the court costs.  Might make some of the inattentive sit up and pay attention. Peter

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Question:

  A few slight differences of opinion, noted below. OK, I will try.  A sportfisherman will have a big cockpit, a transom door, and a stepped up entrance to the salon. Its helm will be in a position so that the captain can see the transom and the cockpit. Common fishing accessories would include a marlin or tuna tower, outriggers,  and cockpit controls.

  A fair description, but I might add that the cabin might be very small or nonexistent.  The emphasis is on fishing, not cabin. A Sedan has a bigger salon, and even a smaller cockpit than a convertible. 25 years ago the difference between a convertible and a sedan was the sedan had an enclosed salon with sliders or a sinlge door in the aft bulkhead; the convertible had an open salon with no aft bulkhead. All three styles, sportfisherman, sedan, and convertible, have a flybridge.

  My definition of a sedan is a bit different.  What I call a sedan they don’t seem to make anymore, but they used to be fairly common.  There is a style of boat that has a smaller cabin and larger elevated back deck area (higher because it is over the engine), with the helm in the forward most portion of the back deck area.  At least the forward portion of this deck would be enclosed, with glass windows, windshield wipers, etc.  It would not have a fly bridge.  A lot of the "classic" wood boats were built this way.   Older sedan models were often a displacement hull rather than a planing hull. An express cruiser has no flybridge!

  I would add that the helm station is rather exposed, often with little or no windshield. The boat is fairly low profile, making it fast and light, as well as a minimum of bridge clearance.  They are not good for foul weather, however, as their only helm station has no protection. Rod

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Hi, Peggie, I agree with the statements for the late seventies models but the late sixties early seventies had most of the engines for the Silvertons under the cock pit with the drives going under the entry. Most other Larz group boats did the about the same thing. Most of the sedans that we have in our area from that era have small salon access. A few with sliders but here in the Midwest, most Silvertons have the door and window option. — Regards and God Speed, Gary Gary W. Sandvik The magic is in the magician not the wand! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, My one exception is the difference between the sedan and convertible cockpits. Early sedan designs that I’ve seen Silverton, Trojan seem to have larger cockpits with smaller salon access. I dunno Gary, the Trojan F32 and F36, built from ‘73-91, all had wide sliding glass doors from the cockpit to the saloon. The early ’70s Eggs and Pacemakers had wood bulkheads with small doors, but the late ’70s forward also had big sliding glass doors. In fact, by the mid-’70s glass saloon aft bulkheads were pretty much standard on all of ‘em…’cuz inside lower helm stations in addition to the flying bridges begin to become popular. Circa late 60s’ too mid 70s’ seem to have this design aspect. This allowed a larger engine area below the cockpit to accomodate those HP to push those monster hulls. Again, I dunno…That might have been true of smaller single engine models, but the engines in every twin engine flybridge sedan/convertable/sportfisher I’ve seen–including mine–are beneath the saloon, not the cockpit. All that weight midship instead of aft certainly makes it easier to get on plane and hold it at lower RPMS…an something I consider a definite advantage over express style cruisers. Peggie  Hell my old 28′ Silverton SD FB, keel was at least 8" thick and about 3/4-1" at the gunnel. Even the transom was about 1/2 to 3/4" thick. Long before they knew anything about reducing the mass to save $$. Heck the guy who originally brought the Rock to Peoria told me stories about how he broke ice to get into the harbor. Another old river story but I’m sure he broke some ice somewhere. But Capt, your descripts were good! — Regards and God Speed, Gary Gary W. Sandvik The magic is in the magician not the wand! OK, I will try.  A sportfisherman will have a big cockpit, a transom door, and a stepped up entrance to the salon. Its helm will be in a position so that the captain can see the transom and the cockpit. Common fishing accessories would include a marlin or tuna tower, outriggers,  and cockpit controls. A convertible is a boat that compromises between a "sedan" and a "sportfisherman". It will have a smaller cockpit, usually no stepped up entrance to the salon (more often than not "apartment door" sliders), and the helm will be in a more forward position. A Sedan has a bigger salon, and even a smaller cockpit than a convertible. 25 years ago the difference between a convertible and a sedan was the sedan had an enclosed salon with sliders or a sinlge door in the aft bulkhead; the convertible had an open salon with no aft bulkhead. All three styles, sportfisherman, sedan, and convertible, have a flybridge. An express cruiser has no flybridge! What do you say class, how did I do? Capt Lou of "Nautical Talk Radio" heard every Sunday morning 8 – 9 on WPRO 630AM serving Rhode Island and every Sunday afternoon from   4 – 5 on WATD 95.9FM serving Massachusetts.

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Hi, My one exception is the difference between the sedan and convertible cockpits. Early sedan designs that I’ve seen Silverton, Trojan seem to have larger cockpits with smaller salon access. Circa late 60s’ too mid 70s’ seem to have this design aspect. This allowed a larger engine area below the cockpit to accomodate those HP to push those monster hulls. Hell my old 28′ Silverton SD FB, keel was at least 8" thick and about 3/4-1" at the gunnel. Even the transom was about 1/2 to 3/4" thick. Long before they knew anything about reducing the mass to save $$. Heck the guy who originally brought the Rock to Peoria told me stories about how he broke ice to get into the harbor. Another old river story but I’m sure he broke some ice somewhere. But Capt, your descripts were good! — Regards and God Speed, Gary Gary W. Sandvik The magic is in the magician not the wand!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, I will try.  A sportfisherman will have a big cockpit, a transom door, and a stepped up entrance to the salon. Its helm will be in a position so that the captain can see the transom and the cockpit. Common fishing accessories would include a marlin or tuna tower, outriggers,  and cockpit controls. A convertible is a boat that compromises between a "sedan" and a "sportfisherman". It will have a smaller cockpit, usually no stepped up entrance to the salon (more often than not "apartment door" sliders), and the helm will be in a more forward position. A Sedan has a bigger salon, and even a smaller cockpit than a convertible. 25 years ago the difference between a convertible and a sedan was the sedan had an enclosed salon with sliders or a sinlge door in the aft bulkhead; the convertible had an open salon with no aft bulkhead. All three styles, sportfisherman, sedan, and convertible, have a flybridge. An express cruiser has no flybridge! What do you say class, how did I do? Capt Lou of "Nautical Talk Radio" heard every Sunday morning 8 – 9 on WPRO 630AM serving Rhode Island and every Sunday afternoon from   4 – 5 on WATD 95.9FM serving Massachusetts.

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Thank’s for the help.   On a day like this,  when the sleet is falling atop the five inches of snow we just got – I sometimes go to yachtworld,com boats for sale and just dream of  boat twice the length of mine.   Now I have a much better idea what I’m looking at. Alan

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I

Question:

#but hes like the Senator from my state Jesse #Helms. You may not always agree with him but you always know where #he stands, #he doesn’t teeter or waiver from his beliefs. somebody said back there a bit–if it’s true, why isn’t Jesse insisting that the coons stay in their own part of town as he did back in the good old days? Helms changes, like everybody whose standards are flexible and who considers himself to be a man of principle but returns to the senate voluntarily.  (and many thinking folks hope he comes to his senses.) As for Gierach, he’s an excellent stylist with an ironic wit, and it’s all fiction mind you, which appellation our BB seems to aspire to much more recently. "Strait-laced" as Shakespeare (or should I say the Earl of Oxford?) had it–the pompous Malvolio of Twelfth Night made a fool of himself by coming around in the opposite look, the dandified and contrived "cross-gartered" style. . .in other words, he went out as what he wasn’t, and was laughed off the creek for it.  Went insane, if I remember correctly.  And Shakespeare wrote about what he wasn’t for a buck, collected "such rascal counters" happily; he would have signed his name for more if he’d had the chance, I reckon. Dave

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I actually met John Gierach in Lyons, Colorado at Mike Clarks shop  this last fall.  We stopped by the shop on our way to the Frying Pan.  John G.  was actually very pleasant and eventhough he didn’t have to stay and talk, he did. I haven’t read all the posts about him, but wanted to put in me 2 cents worth about my brief contact with him and how he seemed like a pretty decent guy, besides being a great writer!

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I met John Gierach in Lyons, Colorado at Mike Clarks shop… John was

actually very pleasant and even though he didn’t have to stay and talk, he did. … he seemed like a pretty decent guy,besides being a great writer! Hey Skilch, you’re right about Gierach. I live "up the road" from John, and bump into him, Mike, and the clan on the high country streams occasionally. I’ve also yakked with him at Mike’s rod shop, and been to John’s fly tying clinics. I don’t know Gierach very well, but I like the guy – and I certainly admire what he’s been able to accomplish in his career. Anybody who can win the Robert Traver Award for excellence in outdoor writing, author thousands of magazine articles, newspapers columns, and ten of the best selling fly fishing books in recent history is bound to invite some criticism from those who wish to hell they had his gift – and his success. Too bad. Regards, Dennis

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[deleted] and ten of the best selling fly fishing books in recent history is bound to invite some criticism from those who wish to hell they had his gift – and his success.

Please. Noone (at least not me) is being critical of either: 1) the fact that john is a nice guy  or 2) that they envy his gifts. If you read past the subject line in these posts, you would have had no need to defend him on those scores. In my critical estimation, as a consumer of flyfishing books, John Gierach is a good writer, but not a great writer.  He got someone to publish him, in my opinion, and the rest is history.   Steve Spinolio is a better writer, in my book, than John Gierach, or Russell Chatham.   I enjoy John Geirach at least as much or more than E. Donnel Thomas, "Whitefish Can’t Jump", but they are very much on the same, simple, short story format that does not define great writers.   I like Ted Lesson’s writing better than Gierach. Again, it has nothing to do with John being a good guy or a clever successful hard-working man.  I am certain that he is all that.  You don’t buy a flyrod or a car for that matter just because the builder is a ‘nice guy’.   I liked James Bashline, who was not a writer, really…but offered me something of value in "Nightfishing for Trout". A sad truth is, IMO, the sale of books often has as much to do with the publishers backing them and the level of gloss on the dust jacket as it does quality of content.  The best thing you could do as a writer is get Nick Lyon’s in your court.  That is power there. The number of sales define the number of awards and some of us are simply critical of the writing itself and are not star struck, nor do we have penis envy.  In Johns case, he has moments of really good stuff, but overall the stuff is repetitive, monotonous, politically correct and often boring.   To me, life offers more exciting fishing trips than John Gierach does in his writing.   So sue me. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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: In my critical estimation, as a consumer of flyfishing books, John Gierach : is a good writer, but not a great writer.  He got someone to publish him, in : my opinion, and the rest is history.   Steve Spinolio is a better writer, in : my book, than John Gierach, or Russell Chatham.   I didn’t know Spinolio had written anything beyond a post or two, one of which I have on my office wall.  Where can I find his writing?   To be a writer, one must write.  I battle with this everyday.  I suspect most do. At the very least, Gierach writes in large amount.  That’s something to be proud of.   — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Does Gierach still live in Lyons? I spent summers there (I’m an East Coast boy) in the early ’70’s and fished the St. Vrain top to bottom–my grandfather owned the trailer park in the big bend just outside of Lyons (next box up from the park.) I think I trespassed on his property a few times. Dave

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:I enjoy John Geirach at :least as much or more than E. Donnel Thomas, "Whitefish Can’t Jump", but :they are very much on the same, simple, short story format that does not :define great writers. You were doing just fine Moe until you said the above which caused me to laugh out loud. You can’t take those darn short stories seriously, you slay me sometimes… TC

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they are very much on the same, simple, short story format that does not define great writers.

I gotta wonder what Ernest Hemmingway woulda said about that. Big Two Hearted River for example, is far from simple. Ben

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: In my critical estimation, as a consumer of flyfishing books, John Gierach : is a good writer, but not a great writer.  He got someone to publish him, in : my opinion, and the rest is history.   Steve Spinolio is a better writer, in : my book, than John Gierach, or Russell Chatham.   I didn’t know Spinolio had written anything beyond a post or two, one of which I have on my office wall.  Where can I find his writing?  

Any idea when he is to return? Or if he will? Kiyu

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I actually met John Gierach in Lyons, Colorado at Mike Clarks shop  this last fall.  We stopped by the shop on our way to the Frying Pan.  John G.  was actually very pleasant and eventhough he didn’t have to stay and talk, he did. I haven’t read all the posts about him, but wanted to put in me 2 cents worth about my brief contact with him and how he seemed like a pretty decent guy, besides being a great writer!

If Geirach is really the guy he says he is in his writing, then he reallly doesn’t give a rat’s ass about all these postings about him, pro and con. If he logs on to defend himself, you may be assured he is a fraud. I predict with the former.  One problem I see here is that many insist on judging him as a flyfisherman, based on his writings. The only way you can judge him as a flyfisher, is to fly fish with him. As a reader, you must judge him as an outdoor writer, an entertainer, if you will. On that basis I find him well worth an evening in the easy chair. Since I haven’t fished with him, I can’t comment on the other. DAO DAO

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If Geirach is really the guy he says he is in his writing, then he reallly

doesn’t give a rat’s ass about all these postings about him, pro and con. If he logs on to defend himself, you may be assured he is a fraud. Funny you should bring that up, Dale. I was with John for an hour or so last week, and asked him if he was aware of the dialog about him on the internet. He just chuckled and said, "Yeah,  the guys told me about it. Sounds like those people are pissing away some good fishing time wrangling over nothing." … or words to that effect. He won’t be logging on. He doesn’t own a computer. As a reader, you must judge him as an outdoor writer, an entertainer, if you

will. On that basis I find him, well worth an evening in the easy chair.< Precisely.

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If you read past the subject line in these posts, you would have had no needto

defend him on those scores. Your right Moe, I was arguing apples and oranges here. My apologies.  He got someone to publish him, in

my opinion, and the rest is history. Right again, but he didn’t get just "anyone" to publish him. Pruett, Lyons, Simon & Shuster and Stackpole are hardly the kind of publishing houses to invest in ho-hum writers. <  Steve Spinolio is a better writer, inmy book, than John Gierach, or Russell Chatham … or E. Donnel Thomas I’m not familiar with Spinolio. Is he someone I should be reading. Know where I can find any of his stuff?, but they are very much on the same, simple, short story format that does not

define great writers.  I suspect you may open a real can of worms with that judgement, Moe. A sad truth is, IMO, the sale of books often has as much to do with the

publishers backing them and the level of gloss on the dust jacket as it does quality of content. Maybe, but again, big publishing houses aren’t likely to invest in writers whose work doesn’t sell. As for" quality of content", that’s a pretty subjective matter.   The number of sales define the number of awards… I’m not so sure that’s an accurate statement. Lyons didn’t publish Trout Bum, nor much of Gierach’s other works. And if I’m not mistaken, John won the Traver Award for a fictional piece that appeared in FR & R. nor do we have penis envy.

????Where’d that come from?   In Johns case, he has moments of really good stuff, but overall the stuff is repetitive, monotonous, politically correct and often boring.  To me, life offers more exciting fishing trips than John Gierach does in his writing.  So sue me. Actually, I’d rather go fishing with you, but If I were to sue-  and win – how much could I get? later DES

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To be a writer, one must write.  I battle with this everyday.  I suspect most

do. Amen to that. At the very least, Gierach writes in large amount.  That’s something to be

proud of. And to that one, as well. DES

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Much of Shakepeare’s work was "formulaic" and "Typical" yet in retrospect his work is viewed as "ground breaking".  Perhaps Gierach’s stuff needs the appreciation that only time and distance can impart to the nonappreciative and overly cautious segments of his audience.

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I find it humerous that all these straight laced flyfisherman find the time to criticize one of their own. I pose a question to any of you who find it within your right to criticize John at a personal or professional level:Have you ever had a conversation with the man? Do you know him and how he lives and his quality of life? I think that most critics would say NO to these questions. John is a very simple man. He’s a very acute journalist who has developed a style both in and out of the newspapers of his own. He is a fine flyfisherman and a generally nice guy to know. Most people who know him feel the same way. If one thing you can say of John, and I hope not to insult him with this comparison, but hes like the Senator from my state Jesse Helms. You may not always agree with him but you always know where he stands, he doesn’t teeter or waiver from his beliefs. A quality I believe to be a goal for most men. The other point is I believe that most flyfisherman, a strangely stoic bunch as it goes, are somewhat jealous of a man who can do what most of us want to do ALL the time instead of just some of the time, like most of us. So don’t wander down a road that you’re not familiar with, you may hit a tree or a parked car or Butch, the local dog who everybody in town knows would be sleeping in the road at 2:00pm on a tuesday. It might be hazardous. Jim Brady

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I was with you until you last paragraph. Literature, great and small, is open game to critics and it is wonderful for an author to have a defender. But, to think that people offer an descenting opinion because they are jealous of a guy who fishes for a living is absurd. By in large, my fly fishers are smarter and better read than that. It’s an opinion. Agree. Disagree. Who cares. I can speak to the issue with a decent amount of authority. I have been in the communications industry for 27-plus years and have only fly fished for half that time. Gierach is a fine writer. I have most of his books. But, I think we all can agree that he is not producing groundbreaking work here. His stuff is Day Berry In Waders, whihc is fine. Hell, Dave Berry won a Pulitzer. As much as I like Gierach, he gets, like anyone else who writes for pay alot, myself included, formulaic, and hence some of his stuff becomes "typical". Knowing where someone stands is not necessarily the greatest commendation one can make about literature. Read Mein Kampf and you know where that guy stood too! My view is simple, stuff like Gierach’s should entertain and inform. Period. I do not expect it to change my life or create a new vision for my life. I leave that to far better writers with something to say on the topic. But, as for whiling away an evening after slaving over a hot word processor all day, I’ll take Gierach any day of the week. Ask the man and I am sure he will tell you he is not out to change the world. He’;s a writer and damn few of us are good enough to change the world. But, if we any good at what we do, we can inform and entertain for a while, even a moment. So, lighten up! Besides, I think Gierach is a big boy and can defend himself nicely. Hollis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find it humerous that all these straight laced flyfisherman find the time to criticize one of their own. I pose a question to any of you who find it within your right to criticize John at a personal or professional level:Have you ever had a conversation with the man? Do you know him and how he lives and his quality of life? I think that most critics would say NO to these questions. John is a very simple man. He’s a very acute journalist who has developed a style both in and out of the newspapers of his own. He is a fine flyfisherman and a generally nice guy to know. Most people who know him feel the same way. If one thing you can say of John, and I hope not to insult him with this comparison, but hes like the Senator from my state Jesse Helms. You may not always agree with him but you always know where he stands, he doesn’t teeter or waiver from his beliefs. A quality I believe to be a goal for most men. The other point is I believe that most flyfisherman, a strangely stoic bunch as it goes, are somewhat jealous of a man who can do what most of us want to do ALL the time instead of just some of the time, like most of us. So don’t wander down a road that you’re not familiar with, you may hit a tree or a parked car or Butch, the local dog who everybody in town knows would be sleeping in the road at 2:00pm on a tuesday. It might be hazardous. Jim Brady

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Another follow-up on this thread… Just don’t read or buy the books he has written if you don’t like his writing.  As for me, I like a lot of what John has written. Most of his writing is non-technical, and therefore fine pleasure reading, if I’m into it. While Christmas cleaning btw, I perused through a lot of old Fly Fisherman and Rod and Reel Mags in my collection dating all the way back to the early eighties.  The writer in question (John) has been around for a long time, has "paid his dues," and in a professional sense is worthy of respect even if many people don’t like his work.  No need for debate or slander of the individual on a ng forum. Wayne Fenior Midland, MI – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was with you until you last paragraph. Literature, great and small, is open game to critics and it is wonderful for an author to have a defender. But, to think that people offer an descenting opinion because they are jealous of a guy who fishes for a living is absurd. By in large, my fly fishers are smarter and better read than that. It’s an opinion. Agree. Disagree. Who cares. I can speak to the issue with a decent amount of authority. I have been in the communications industry for 27-plus years and have only fly fished for half that time. Gierach is a fine writer. I have most of his books. But, I think we all can agree that he is not producing groundbreaking work here. His stuff is Day Berry In Waders, whihc is fine. Hell, Dave Berry won a Pulitzer. As much as I like Gierach, he gets, like anyone else who writes for pay alot, myself included, formulaic, and hence some of his stuff becomes "typical". Knowing where someone stands is not necessarily the greatest commendation one can make about literature. Read Mein Kampf and you know where that guy stood too! My view is simple, stuff like Gierach’s should entertain and inform. Period. I do not expect it to change my life or create a new vision for my life. I leave that to far better writers with something to say on the topic. But, as for whiling away an evening after slaving over a hot word processor all day, I’ll take Gierach any day of the week. Ask the man and I am sure he will tell you he is not out to change the world. He’;s a writer and damn few of us are good enough to change the world. But, if we any good at what we do, we can inform and entertain for a while, even a moment. So, lighten up! Besides, I think Gierach is a big boy and can defend himself nicely. Hollis

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Tim, I think if I could paraphrase your response–if you’re gonna set up shop as an icon (or let others set you up), you better expect some iconoclasts will come along. It goes with the job. I have to agree…good, not great. Trouble is, good writers don’t usually stay in print 50 years later. And in 100 years, no one remembers who the good writers were. That’s a tribute for great writers, and I don’t think we should start throwing that appelation around lightly. BTW–do you know where these straight-laced, stoic fishermen are. They’re not around here, that’s for damned sure! I don’t think I last an afternoon fishing with one of ‘em! Roger

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I find it humerous that all these straight laced flyfisherman find the time to criticize one of their own.

        (lots of stuff snipped) , but hes like the Senator from my state Jesse Helms. You may not always agree with him but you always know where he stands, he doesn’t teeter or waiver from his beliefs. A quality I believe to be a goal for most men.

        let me tell you, jack, that he is also my senior senator, a fact that renders me nauseous, but is presently unavoidable.  and if you think ol jesse wouldn’t sell every goddam inch of hazel creek to the highest bidder in the tree cuttin industry, then you are blind as a bat.  and having read gierach, i can’t believe he would accept such a comparison. The other point is I believe that most flyfisherman, a strangely stoic bunch as it goes, are somewhat jealous of a man who can do what most of us want to do ALL the time instead of just some of the time,

        how much the guy fishes has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of his prose.  which, imho, is very high.  but your apology for him, in the face of timbo’s protestations, is lamentable.         a. wayne harrison

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Much of Shakepeare’s work was "formulaic" and "Typical" yet in retrospect his work is viewed as "ground breaking".  Perhaps Gierach’s stuff needs the appreciation that only time and distance can impart to the nonappreciative and overly cautious segments of his audience.

Is it really you ?  I thought you were dead ? Comparing Gierach to Shakespeare ? Like the guy that painted a happy face on a dairy cows underside. Udderly Silly. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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I find it humerous that all these straight laced flyfisherman

I’ve spent enough time around this group the past couple of years to know that most of the laces don’t get any crookeder than the ones you’ll find round here. Nope…not a straight lace in the bunch (I say that with pride, so don’t anyone get offended). Roger

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Much of Shakepeare’s work was "formulaic" and "Typical" yet in retrospect his work is viewed as "ground breaking".  Perhaps Gierach’s stuff needs the appreciation that only time and distance can impart to the nonappreciative and overly cautious segments of his audience.

I would have to disagree on calling much of Shakespeare formulaic or typical. Sure, he may have used some common conventions and story lines adopted from other sources, but if you compare Shakespeare’s King Lear, for example, with contemporary version’s like Nahum Tate’s, Big Bill the Bard’s on a whole new plane. As for Geirach I don’t think the same can be said. I have read and enjoyed his work as light reading over my lunch hour. Or on a camping trip. Groundbreaking? Unconventional? Original? I don’t think so. There is very little that hasn’t been done before by others, and won’t be done again. It’s not even a terribly distinctive voice. This doesn’t make it unpleasant or without value. But I don’t think it’s the kind of stuff posterity is going to elevate into the canon of great works. If you went back 100-200 years and looked at the best selling books…other than the bible, you probably wouldn’t recogize many of them. The reason they were so popular was not that they were original, but rather that they perfectly mimicked the conventions of their day. They appealed to contemporary tastes. That…I think…is what Geirach does. He ain’t writing for the ages. Roger

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Seems to me that how nice a guy a person is, how authentic or otherwise attractive his lifestyle might ain’t got a lot to do with the quality of his writing, and thus the orig. poster just misses the point of some of Gierach’s detractors entirely. Hemmingway, for instance, does not seem to be the kind of guy one would enjoy spending lots of time with, and while through happy circumstances I can afford to fish as much as Gierach (or maybe even more), that don’t make me a writer.         That said, I think that most if not all of Gierach’s detractors miss a point too, and that is that almost no author I know of who has turned out more than just a book or two is able to maintain the same quality of prose over and over and over again. But even then, there are authors who write one great great work and then are either silent or write crap, and others who simply maintain a fairly high level consistently  throughout their careers.         For my money I suspect some of Gierach’s stuff

Question:

  I read an article in a magazine that said, "although midge pupae are often fished with considerable patience on long greased leaders…"    What does a greased leader do?  How and why should you use it?  Thanks.                                           – Harald

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  I read an article in a magazine that said, "although midge pupae are often fished with considerable patience on long greased leaders…"    What does a greased leader do?  How and why should you use it?  Thanks.

It floats.  British books on lake fishing tell you how many feet of the leader to grease, so that the buzzer (chrironomid pupa fly) sinks, but only a few inches.  But N.American flies (and stillwater ecology in general) are different…. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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 I read an article in a magazine that said, "although midge pupae are often fished with considerable patience on long greased leaders…"   What does a greased leader do?  How and why should you use it?  Thanks.                                          - Harald

If you want a light pattern like a midge to suspend close to the water surface you put floatant on the leader, and this will stop the fly from going too deep,  The leader so treated will be a little more obvious to the trout.  This may be irrelevant these days since there are many suspender midge patterns which hold their possition due to matterials like foam cases. Thomas

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It just means it has some floatant rubbed on it so it floats instead of sinking under the water film.  Usually just rubbing some of your fly floatation goop on your leader to keep it from going under will work fine.

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Question:

I will be in the Norway area of wester Maine in August and would like to do some flyfishing for trout.  Does anyone have any information? I would prefer streams, but lake information would be good also. Thanks. Wes Autio Pelham, Massachusetts

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I will be in the Norway area of wester Maine in August and would like to do some flyfishing for trout.  Does anyone have any information? I would prefer streams, but lake information would be good also. Thanks. Wes Autio Pelham, Massachusetts

August is not the best time to be in Norway, ME, looking for trout. Depending on how much time you have, your best bet would be the Rapid River, below Lake Richardson. This would be about an hour and a half drive, and a little hike, but easily the best bet in the area. The trout ponds in that area won’t be worth much in August, but you may find some trout in the upper reaches of the Crooked and Little Androscoggin Rivers. Both areas would be about a half hour drive from Norway. Good Luck. Joel Anderson

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Question:

I know this has been posted before but I can’t find my copy of the file.  Can anyone let me know where the NF outlets are (I’m mainly interested in the SF area) and when they might be having another sale?                         Mucho,                           Kevin

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I spent a few days in Baxter (actually Millinocket) last summer.  Baxter camping sites are reserved well in advance; doubt you can get in for this summer, maybe shoulder season like Sept. will work better.  Appalachia Trail’s ends (or begins depending upon point of view) at top of Katadin; maybe you can hike in and camp along trail?  I know the trail goes by a nice river at the border of  the park and the Golden Road; don’t know about other fishing venues.  Hope this helps.

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I would like to possibly spend a week or two at Baxter this summer. Information on good solitary tent sites and fly fishing possibilities would be much apreciated.                 Thanks,

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Question:

Can anyone out there suggest a good fly-tying book.  I am looking into trying it out and would like to get started soon. Thanks!

Both of the Jack Dennis books are good for beginners.  They have abundant pictures and stories about each fly.  Although they are written, suposedly, for Western trout, I dont think Eastern trout will care. Good Luck

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Dear JFlotch–      I’ve been tying for quite a while and don’t have it myself, but from what I’ve seen and heard from others I think I’d start with Skip Morris’ book.  I believe the title is something like "Fly Tying Made Simple".      Welcome to the obsession.  Hang onto your wallet.                              Ed Morrison

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I’m a beginner tyer myself and was given a copy of The Fly Tyer’s Primer by Richard Talleur. It is well explained and has good photos and a good selection of patterns. He lives in Harrisburg so most of what is in the book is good for eastern stream, what I fish anyway.

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The best I’ve ever seen in "Fly Tying Made Clear and Simple" by Skip Morris.  Much better than the Dick Stewart book for beginners, although Stewart’s patterns make an excellent resource once the basics are learned.

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I got my start with Dick Talleur’s "Mastering The Art of Fly-tying".  It is now quite dog-eared from it’s extensive use by myself, as well as several others.  I still go back to it on occaision when I find my work getting a little sloppy.  I like the way he starts one off with a few basic procedures and then adds more as he proceeds from fly-to-fly.  I learned more from this book than I did from the "classes" I had attended. Although this was a long time ago, I would still highly reccomend this to any beginner.

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A new book, "The Art of Fly Tying, by Van Vliet, (Cy DeCosse press) was just published as part of the Hunting and Fishing Library. Fantastic pictures, clear step-by-step instructions on every _Fundamental__Operation_ of fly-tying, i.e., quill bodies, hackle collars, wet fly bodies, etc. Lots of good patterns, well-organized, with a good index so you can find what you’re looking for. The new leader (no pun intended) in fly tying books. Highly recommended. -Phil Plumbo

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Can anyone out there suggest a good fly-tying book.  I am looking into trying it out and would like to get started soon. Thanks!

My idea of a good beginners book is one that takes YOU seriously. One that you will retun to for advice for years. One of these is "The Art of Tying the Dry Fly." By  Skip Morris. The clarity of the text and illustrations and the clever techniques that make hard things easy make this book a winner. Tight Lines –Doug Easton

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Skip. has an excellent book for Nymphs also.

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Can anyone out there suggest a good fly-tying book.  I am looking into trying it out and would like to get started soon. Thanks! My idea of a good beginners book is one that takes YOU seriously. One that you will retun to for advice for years. One of these is "The Art of Tying the Dry Fly." By  Skip Morris. The clarity of the text and illustrations and the clever techniques that make hard things easy make this book a winner.

There is a new book out called "The Art of Fly Tying" by John van Vliet that is part of a group of books called the Hunting and Fishing Library. At least half the content of the book is pictures– all of them in color. I think its a great book for the beginner and intermidiate fly tyer and I believe it meets the qualifications above. I also like the two books by Randall Kaufmann, "Tying Dry Flies" and "The Fly Tyers Nymph Manual". Randy Esch

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Try Dick Stewart’s "universal Fly Tying Guide" (Steven Greene Press, 1979) – an excellent guid to about 150 basic patterns of all types, any    d you can probably get it for about $10 or so — 3798 Woodland Drive     (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC

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Can anyone out there suggest a good fly-tying book.  I am looking into trying it out and would like to get started soon. Thanks!

Poul Jorgensen has a very good book out, "Poul Jorgensen’s Book of Fly Tying" I’ve gone back to it time after time.  It has a good, clear layout and is organized by type of fly with associated patterns.  Check it out. John C. Crow

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The best book for a beginning fly-tyer I’ve always thought to be J. Edson Leonard’s FLIES..straightforward, commonsense, clear, well-illustrated, and especially usefu if you don’t have a teacher of any kind. writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Skip. has an excellent book for Nymphs also.

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I’ve been tying flies for something like 20 years now (with large portions of downtime – namely grad school).  When I was getting started there was a book by Kenneth Bay (I think) which was excellent.  This only shows you a half dozen or so patterns, but there is a photograph and an explanation of EVERY step.  If you are just starting and have no idea of how to do anything, I would suggest that you look for this book and work through it.  Then get a list of fly patterns or one of the other books mentioned and work on some different patterns. Good luck, and my condolences – it’s an addicting hobby and you’ll likely never be cured.  Lucky you! Regards, John — Dr. John G. Hardie Indiana University Cyclotron Facility

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