Question:

The biggest news is no news.   Expected ROFF population is presently four, with at least one maybe.   There’s still one bed available Thurs-Sat & one Fri-Sat.   Friday night is still arbitrarily selected as the BS/drinking/cigar/tying get-together at Malinda’s in Altmar.   Sorry, no raffle. I’m planning to have an FRS radio on me when I’m not at Malinda’s, so if you’re driving up or you’re near the river, try shouting for me on FRS ch.9 if you have one yourself.   Friday, I’m likely to be around the FFO stretch at Altmar or down at the Trestle Pool; but it’s way too soon to say. I’m getting together w/ fishing buddy on Thursday for lunch to compare fly boxes in time to fill perceived shortages.   If (big IF) I can get my shit together, I want to photograph one of every fly we have between us & post the photos on the website.   http://home.att.net/~fleischman/SalmonRiver.htm My present fly inventory includes: chenille egg patterns (various colors) on #10’s sparkle chenille eggs (various colors) on #8 3906 Purple Flash nymph version on 3906 #8  (awesome last year) Altmar Sunrise, #8 Comets, pink & orange on 3906B, #8 Lazer eggs (orange, pink, chartr.) A comet variety I’ve been messing with but looks great.   It’s an unweighted comet on a 3906 w/ short marabou tail, oval tinsel body, bucktail wing (w/ a few strands of krystal flash), & collar hackle.   I’ve tied ‘em in purple, pink, & chartreuse so far & I’m expecting great things (gotta do some orange, but don’t have the bucktail).   If they work & it hasn’t been done before, I’ll give it a name; but it’s too similar to a comet to be anything but a variety thereof. I think I’m forgetting something.   I’ll have to get my fly box out & see what else is in there.  I have heard at least one early report that black wooly buggers were slayin’ ‘em.   Is there any fish that doesn’t work for? A reminder of the dates in case anyone’s interested: October 17-20, Altmar, NY Joe F.

Response:

Expected ROFF population is presently four, with at least one maybe.

Upgrade that ‘maybe’ to ‘probable’.

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Question:

7)  Why do geese have those white cheeks? Mr. G.

Why is it when geese make those long " Vs" to fly north and south each year one side of the "V" is longer than the other? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ans: There’s more geese on that   side.

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Duh… Water would get in their buttholes otherwise…

That’s why salmon don’t use Japanese toilets, too… — Charlie…

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Ari?  You’re question which is only a few words is like asking, "Why is an orange?"

Or, "you are question" — Gary (Email address is munged with x’s)

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If I were a "smart" salmon I’d just stay in the ocean and grow to a gargantuan size. Unfortunately, I wouldn’t pass my "smart"" genes on to any more salmon.

Ya wouldn’t get any sex either Darin

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Not all salmon do travel upstream. Chum salmon spawn in the lower reaches of the streams. Darin

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the urge to spawn upstream all about? Ari?  You’re question which is only a few words is like asking, "Why is an orange?" Do your really expect anyone here to give you the full biological aspects and possibilities on "Why Do Salmon Spawn Way Up Rivers?" There are a thousand reasons why and control mechanisms that determine not only the why of it but the who, where, when, and how of it. There are the following controlling and/or influencing aspects that can and do affect all mammals on this earth. 1)  The phases of the moon. 2)  The position of the earth around the sun which is a seasonal aspect 3)  Earth temperatures 4)  Length of the day that sunshine baths this planet in the hemispheres. 5)  Magnetic lines of incidence 6)  Magnetic declination 7)  Why do geese have those white cheeks?  Water temperatures 9)  Water scents and/or minerals that salmon smell and home in on. 10) Those god awful dams that used to NOT be there. 11) All those stinking chemicals man puts in water today salmon are expected to overcome. 12) Your toilet and your bowels and that it all goes down hill. 13) Clearcutting and over sedimentation of your stream beds. 14) The  lowering of the water tables that stop springs from bubbling UP in streams anymore where REDDS ‘used’ to be. 15) The long liners and Japanese fishing theives in you Gulf of Alaska and over fishing. 16) No natural, UNRESTRICTED fish ladders AROUND ALL dams. 17) Over commericial fishing. 18) Those greedy, Indian Gill Nets that choke all the rivers from the ocean so the big ones don’t get by. 19) This causes the weakening of the species becausze the strong genes are destroyed for money. 20) I hate you for asking this unresponsible question because it serves no purpose and you’re not going to do a thing about it. 21) I hope termites eat your house up. 22) The monkey barks at midnight. 23) The dog ate my homework. 24) Que sera sera. 25) Kay Ballard 26) Wanna buy some redhots? 27) Oompa loompa doompety do. Wolfgang more to come……betcha a shiny new nickel.    

28) The temperature inside the Little Brown Trucks 29) How much Gink could a Dumb Dink Drink if a Dumb Dink Could Drink Gink? 30) The Trilateral Commission /daytripper (Ha hah! Bet you didn’t see that last one coming

Response:

If I were a "smart" salmon I’d just stay in the ocean and grow to a gargantuan size. Unfortunately, I wouldn’t pass my "smart"" genes on to any more salmon. Ya wouldn’t get any sex either

So basically things would be the same for him if he were a salmon. <g — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

Response:

28) The temperature inside the Little Brown Trucks 29) How much Gink could a Dumb Dink Drink if a Dumb Dink Could Drink Gink? 30) The Trilateral Commission

31) They’re trying to smoke what is in Daytripper’s peace pipe. 32) They want to take away Wolfgang’s dictionary! 33) Waldo wading in the surf and so they ran to the rivers to get away from the smell! 34) They are trying to come and watch LaCourse play with his goat 35) They heard that RW would try and snag them on the redds and thought it was an urban legend so came anyways — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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If I were a "smart" salmon I’d just stay in the ocean and grow to a gargantuan size. Unfortunately, I wouldn’t pass my "smart"" genes on to any more salmon. Ya wouldn’t get any sex either So basically things would be the same for him if he were a salmon. <g

Well, maybe that, but look on the bright side. I wouldn’t be slowly dying in shallow water, being eaten alive by eagles and crows, and dogs wouldn’t be rolling in my stinking carcass. (BTW, we had a big salmon run this year and I’ve had to wash Arlo with tomato juice frequently.) When you get out to Stanley next time, Warren, there’s a fat chick I want to set you up with. Bring some hip boots if you have them, and I suspect you do, if you know what I mean.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the urge to spawn upstream all about? Ari?  You’re question which is only a few words is like asking, "Why is an orange?" Do your really expect anyone here to give you the full biological aspects and possibilities on "Why Do Salmon Spawn Way Up Rivers?" There are a thousand reasons why and control mechanisms that determine not only the why of it but the who, where, when, and how of it. There are the following controlling and/or influencing aspects that can and do affect all mammals on this earth. 1)  The phases of the moon. 2)  The position of the earth around the sun which is a seasonal aspect 3)  Earth temperatures 4)  Length of the day that sunshine baths this planet in the hemispheres. 5)  Magnetic lines of incidence 6)  Magnetic declination 7)  Why do geese have those white cheeks?  Water temperatures 9)  Water scents and/or minerals that salmon smell and home in on. 10) Those god awful dams that used to NOT be there. 11) All those stinking chemicals man puts in water today salmon are expected to overcome. 12) Your toilet and your bowels and that it all goes down hill. 13) Clearcutting and over sedimentation of your stream beds. 14) The  lowering of the water tables that stop springs from bubbling UP in streams anymore where REDDS ‘used’ to be. 15) The long liners and Japanese fishing theives in you Gulf of Alaska and over fishing. 16) No natural, UNRESTRICTED fish ladders AROUND ALL dams. 17) Over commericial fishing. 18) Those greedy, Indian Gill Nets that choke all the rivers from the ocean so the big ones don’t get by. 19) This causes the weakening of the species becausze the strong genes are destroyed for money. 20) I hate you for asking this unresponsible question because it serves no purpose and you’re not going to do a thing about it. 21) I hope termites eat your house up.

22) The monkey barks at midnight. 23) The dog ate my homework. 24) Que sera sera. 25) Kay Ballard 26) Wanna buy some redhots? 27) Oompa loompa doompety do. Wolfgang more to come……betcha a shiny new nickel.    

Response:

What is the urge to spawn upstream all about?

Ari?  You’re question which is only a few words is like asking, "Why is an orange?" Do your really expect anyone here to give you the full biological aspects and possibilities on "Why Do Salmon Spawn Way Up Rivers?" There are a thousand reasons why and control mechanisms that determine not only the why of it but the who, where, when, and how of it. There are the following controlling and/or influencing aspects that can and do affect all mammals on this earth. 1)  The phases of the moon. 2)  The position of the earth around the sun which is a seasonal aspect 3)  Earth temperatures 4)  Length of the day that sunshine baths this planet in the hemispheres. 5)  Magnetic lines of incidence 6)  Magnetic declination 7)  Why do geese have those white cheeks?  Water temperatures 9)  Water scents and/or minerals that salmon smell and home in on. 10) Those god awful dams that used to NOT be there. 11) All those stinking chemicals man puts in water today salmon are expected to overcome. 12) Your toilet and your bowels and that it all goes down hill. 13) Clearcutting and over sedimentation of your stream beds. 14) The  lowering of the water tables that stop springs from bubbling UP in streams anymore where REDDS ‘used’ to be. 15) The long liners and Japanese fishing theives in you Gulf of Alaska and over fishing. 16) No natural, UNRESTRICTED fish ladders AROUND ALL dams. 17) Over commericial fishing. 18) Those greedy, Indian Gill Nets that choke all the rivers from the ocean so the big ones don’t get by. 19) This causes the weakening of the species becausze the strong genes are destroyed for money. 20) I hate you for asking this unresponsible question because it serves no purpose and you’re not going to do a thing about it. 21) I hope termites eat your house up. Mr. G.

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Duh… Water would get in their buttholes otherwise… — TBone

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Fish head in all sorts of directions. * Anadromous – natal-rear/spawn in freshwater, adult-rear in sea – eg, salmon * Catadromous – natal-rear/spawn in sea, adult-rear in freshwater – eg, eels * Potadromous (aka Adfluvial) – natal-rear/spawn in headwater    streams, adult-rear in lakes – eg, bull trout, rainbow * Fluvial – natal-rear/spawn in headwater streams, adult-rear in mainstem    stream – eg, bull trout, rainbow, cutthroat * Resident – natal-rear/adult-rear/spawn in stream, no migration * Panadromous – natal-rear/adult-rear somewhere, caught and cooked in frying pan Thomas Gilg

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I currently live in a fairly large city in a fairly flat area, yet I yearn to be back in my home of the mountains. The pull is great. I consider that instinct and love for my homeland. Drew

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The other thing is that the Smolts must live in the river in their early stages. The further up the river they hatch the more mature and robust they should be when they hit the perils of the Ocean. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also flooding in such areas would be less severe and of shorter duration, possibly helping the redds stay in tact. Clark I would suspect that it has to do with better spawning habitat being found in the headwaters of salmon rivers. The gradient would usually be greater meaning better oxygenation, less siltation, better egg protecting substrate (gravel and cobble)  and cooler water temps. Just my opinion though. G.Cleveland What is the urge to spawn upstream all about? Zoologically speaking of course, allthough very obviously it’s to feed the bears of course – don’t you watch National Geographic? Jokes aside though, I recently discovered that we have our own upstream migration of Yellowfish every spring, even leaping over man made weirs and other natural structures. Surely the higher you go, the less water you will encounter. Also the further you have to swim downstream, the worse your chance of success, as chance of meeting predators or other dangers become. Also the further you have to swim upstream, the less chance you have of having enough energy to mate and spawn. Or is it a case of, the further you have to swim downstream, the more chance you will have of picking up food along the way and thus being better equipped to handle and survive the dangers of the final? destination. Or maybe a female will prefer a mate who is "fitter" than the rest and has proved that by making an more arduous journey? Does anybody out there know – we didn’t quite study salmon & trout ecology down in this part of the world, and I had never known about our own yellowfish habits until now. Ari Ari Bert Gaelle Bert +27 (0) 83 232 9903 +27 (0) 83 236 5308 Flyfishing Corner +27 (0) 11 447 7230 Shop 94, Admirals Court +27 (0) 11 882 8537 (fax) Cnr Craddock & Tyrwhitt www.troutfishing.co.za         Street, Rosebank P.O.Box 79067 Senderwood 2145 South Africa

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It reminds me of my weekend Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why do you pay for dinner on a date? Salmon spawn in shallow, well-oxygenated, gravel-bottomed, flowing water. The farther upstream they go the more of it they find. As to "why" they do it, the salmon aren’t "thinking" about "why" they do it. They just do it. And then they die. It seems to work for them. If I were a "smart" salmon I’d just stay in the ocean and grow to a gargantuan size. Unfortunately, I wouldn’t pass my "smart"" genes on to any more salmon. The most remarkable thing about spawning salmon and steelhead, to me, is just how single-minded they are about spawning. It reminds me of my youth.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It also seems likely that there would be an evolutionary drive to get further upstream to reduce competition.  If you get further up than any of the other salmon, your offspring will have all the food in their neighborhood to themselves. Reasonable enough. Then too, the further upstream, the smaller the potential predators. Quite possibly less of them too. Only those in the river.   I’d be willing to bet one of your shiny nickels that the grizzlies, otters, & eagles are the same size upstream as down. Further (not farther), traveling upstream may expose the salmon to more predators than if he/she stayed put.

I wasn’t thinking of the mama and the papa salmon, but rather the itty bitty babies.  Neither and eagle nor a grizzly is going to get too excited over a quarter inch long fish.  Nor would I for that matter.     Wolfgang

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Why do you pay for dinner on a date? Salmon spawn in shallow, well-oxygenated, gravel-bottomed, flowing water. The farther upstream they go the more of it they find. As to "why" they do it, the salmon aren’t "thinking" about "why" they do it. They just do it. And then they die. It seems to work for them. If I were a "smart" salmon I’d just stay in the ocean and grow to a gargantuan size. Unfortunately, I wouldn’t pass my "smart"" genes on to any more salmon. The most remarkable thing about spawning salmon and steelhead, to me, is just how single-minded they are about spawning. It reminds me of my youth.

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It is a survival thing.  Salmon will try to occupy the whole river as a hedge against any particular part of the river having problems (drought, flood, predators etc).   It is similar to the Atlantic salmon’s strategy of returning at different times and the resultant offspring becoming spring (multi-seawinter) fish, grilse or summer/autumn (fall) fish. It is in order to maximise survival of the species.  Hope this helps. Martin. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the urge to spawn upstream all about? Zoologically speaking of course, allthough very obviously it’s to feed the bears of course – don’t you watch National Geographic? Jokes aside though, I recently discovered that we have our own upstream migration of Yellowfish every spring, even leaping over man made weirs and other natural structures. Surely the higher you go, the less water you will encounter. Also the further you have to swim downstream, the worse your chance of success, as chance of meeting predators or other dangers become. Also the further you have to swim upstream, the less chance you have of having enough energy to mate and spawn. Or is it a case of, the further you have to swim downstream, the more chance you will have of picking up food along the way and thus being better equipped to handle and survive the dangers of the final? destination. Or maybe a female will prefer a mate who is "fitter" than the rest and has proved that by making an more arduous journey? Does anybody out there know – we didn’t quite study salmon & trout ecology down in this part of the world, and I had never known about our own yellowfish habits until now. Ari Ari Bert     Gaelle Bert +27 (0) 83 232 9903    +27 (0) 83 236 5308 Flyfishing Corner +27 (0) 11 447 7230    Shop 94, Admirals Court +27 (0) 11 882 8537 (fax)   Cnr Craddock & Tyrwhitt www.troutfishing.co.za            Street, Rosebank P.O.Box 79067 Senderwood 2145 South Africa

Response:

Also flooding in such areas would be less severe and of shorter duration, possibly helping the redds stay in tact. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would suspect that it has to do with better spawning habitat being found in the headwaters of salmon rivers. The gradient would usually be greater meaning better oxygenation, less siltation, better egg protecting substrate (gravel and cobble)  and cooler water temps. Just my opinion though. G.Cleveland What is the urge to spawn upstream all about? Zoologically speaking of course, allthough very obviously it’s to feed the bears of course – don’t you watch National Geographic? Jokes aside though, I recently discovered that we have our own upstream migration of Yellowfish every spring, even leaping over man made weirs and other natural structures. Surely the higher you go, the less water you will encounter. Also the further you have to swim downstream, the worse your chance of success, as chance of meeting predators or other dangers become. Also the further you have to swim upstream, the less chance you have of having enough energy to mate and spawn. Or is it a case of, the further you have to swim downstream, the more chance you will have of picking up food along the way and thus being better equipped to handle and survive the dangers of the final? destination. Or maybe a female will prefer a mate who is "fitter" than the rest and has proved that by making an more arduous journey? Does anybody out there know – we didn’t quite study salmon & trout ecology down in this part of the world, and I had never known about our own yellowfish habits until now. Ari Ari Bert Gaelle Bert +27 (0) 83 232 9903 +27 (0) 83 236 5308 Flyfishing Corner +27 (0) 11 447 7230 Shop 94, Admirals Court +27 (0) 11 882 8537 (fax) Cnr Craddock & Tyrwhitt www.troutfishing.co.za         Street, Rosebank P.O.Box 79067 Senderwood 2145 South Africa

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@news.worldonline.co.za: Because they’ve done all there is to do downstream Scott

Response:

I would suspect that it has to do with better spawning habitat being found in the headwaters of salmon rivers. The gradient would usually be greater meaning better oxygenation, less siltation, better egg protecting substrate (gravel and cobble)  and cooler water temps. Just my opinion though.

It also seems likely that there would be an evolutionary drive to get further upstream to reduce competition.  If you get further up than any of the other salmon, your offspring will have all the food in their neighborhood to themselves. Then too, the further upstream, the smaller the potential predators.  Quite possibly less of them too. Wolfgang

Response:

It also seems likely that there would be an evolutionary drive to get further upstream to reduce competition.  If you get further up than any of the other salmon, your offspring will have all the food in their neighborhood to themselves.

Reasonable enough. Then too, the further upstream, the smaller the potential predators. Quite possibly less of them too.

Only those in the river.   I’d be willing to bet one of your shiny nickels that the grizzlies, otters, & eagles are the same size upstream as down. Further (not farther), traveling upstream may expose the salmon to more predators than if he/she stayed put. IMHO, I have absolutely no idea *why* they do it, but I’d expect that the farther (not further) a fish makes it upstream would be directly proportional to its health & strength. Joe F.

Response:

I would suspect that it has to do with better spawning habitat being found in the headwaters of salmon rivers. The gradient would usually be greater meaning better oxygenation, less siltation, better egg protecting substrate (gravel and cobble)  and cooler water temps. Just my opinion though. G.Cleveland   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What is the urge to spawn upstream all about? Zoologically speaking of course, allthough very obviously it’s to feed the bears of course – don’t you watch National Geographic? Jokes aside though, I recently discovered that we have our own upstream migration of Yellowfish every spring, even leaping over man made weirs and other natural structures. Surely the higher you go, the less water you will encounter. Also the further you have to swim downstream, the worse your chance of success, as chance of meeting predators or other dangers become. Also the further you have to swim upstream, the less chance you have of having enough energy to mate and spawn. Or is it a case of, the further you have to swim downstream, the more chance you will have of picking up food along the way and thus being better equipped to handle and survive the dangers of the final? destination. Or maybe a female will prefer a mate who is "fitter" than the rest and has proved that by making an more arduous journey? Does anybody out there know – we didn’t quite study salmon & trout ecology down in this part of the world, and I had never known about our own yellowfish habits until now. Ari Ari Bert                                    Gaelle Bert +27 (0) 83 232 9903                         +27 (0) 83 236 5308 Flyfishing Corner +27 (0) 11 447 7230                         Shop 94, Admirals Court +27 (0) 11 882 8537 (fax)                   Cnr Craddock & Tyrwhitt www.troutfishing.co.za                            Street, Rosebank P.O.Box 79067 Senderwood 2145 South Africa

Response:

What is the urge to spawn upstream all about? Zoologically speaking of course, allthough very obviously it’s to feed the bears of course – don’t you watch National Geographic? Jokes aside though, I recently discovered that we have our own upstream migration of Yellowfish every spring, even leaping over man made weirs and other natural structures. Surely the higher you go, the less water you will encounter. Also the further you have to swim downstream, the worse your chance of success, as chance of meeting predators or other dangers become. Also the further you have to swim upstream, the less chance you have of having enough energy to mate and spawn. Or is it a case of, the further you have to swim downstream, the more chance you will have of picking up food along the way and thus being better equipped to handle and survive the dangers of the final? destination. Or maybe a female will prefer a mate who is "fitter" than the rest and has proved that by making an more arduous journey? Does anybody out there know – we didn’t quite study salmon & trout ecology down in this part of the world, and I had never known about our own yellowfish habits until now. Ari Ari Bert                                        Gaelle Bert +27 (0) 83 232 9903                             +27 (0) 83 236 5308 Flyfishing Corner +27 (0) 11 447 7230                             Shop 94, Admirals Court +27 (0) 11 882 8537 (fax)                       Cnr Craddock & Tyrwhitt www.troutfishing.co.za                                Street, Rosebank P.O.Box 79067 Senderwood 2145 South Africa

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Question:

as my abused feet thaw, i thought i’d share a trip report with ya’ll. jeff arrived at the predetermined time, and i was damn near ready. we eventually loaded my gear in the truck and made our way off to the elk. we stopped at a convenience store for ice but it really wasn’t needed— we could have just as well laid the beer out in the truck bed and it would have been properly chilled upon our return. we walked the snow packed trail down and reached our favorite put-in spot. as we had rigged up at the truck, we were ready to fish. aberrantly, i cockily asked jeff if he wanted to see a fish out of the first hole. i dropped my bhhe into the water..and lordy…a rainbow made me look like a laughing prophet. jeff just shook his head and laughed. i knew we were in for one hell of a special day. nymphing in the blue cold of winter is wonderful. the air is crisp and fresh, the river is changed, yet gorgeous in it’s white blanket. i’d finish this story for ya’ll…but sweet smells are wafting down here from marie’s cooking and i’m starved… just let it be known that it really doesn’t get any better than to be astream with a good friend, no matter how friggin cold it is! waldo..prince of pilsner

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<good report snipped Nice sounding report Walt.  One time fishing the Upper Provo, my friend was not having any luck. I asked to see his rig.  He was using a gold ribbed hare’s ear.  I laid a cast using his fly rod in some ripples just before a pool and hooked up to a nice 12" rainbow.  Handed the rod back to him and told him, seems to be working fine.  It was pure luck and great timing on my part. bc. — Angling may be said to be so like the mathematics that it can never be fully learnt — Izaak Walton

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Blackcat writes: Nice sounding report Walt.  One time fishing the Upper Provo, my friend was not having any luck. I asked to see his rig.  He was using a gold ribbed hare’s ear.  I laid a cast using his fly rod in some ripples just before a pool and hooked up to a nice 12" rainbow.  Handed the rod back to him and told him, seems to be working fine.  It was pure luck and great timing on my part. bc.

LOL.  That has happened to all of us, I belief.  The best one that happened to me concerned a registered Maine Guide.  He was "trying out" a new 3 weight he had just made.  I sat for about 10 minutes watching him cast a size 20 emerger into a particular pool.  He asked me to try the rod.  I made several false casts, sort of getting the feel of things.  When I presented the fly, it must have landed right in front of a 17 inch land locked salmon, for he came up and slashed at the fly.  The rest is a pleasant memory.  When I released the fish, I told him it not only cast well, but landed well too.  <g Dave L.

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Question:

I’m scheduled the weekend before the Canadian Thanksgiving, October 10th.

I mean the weekend *of* Thanksgiving – can’t read a damn calendar anymore. Peter

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Peter Charles: (snip) <<"Son, I can bring you to the fish, but *you* have to catch’em."  Must be a real guide, eh? Sounds about right.  He left out the part about leaving his ears intact.  <g Dave L.

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Peter Charles: <<"Son, I can bring you to the fish, but *you* have to catch’em."  Must be a real guide, eh? Sounds about right.  He left out the part about leaving his ears intact.  <g

You must hear that a lot, Dave… /daytripper ;^)

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Tripper : <Sounds about right.  He left out the part about leaving his ears intact.  <g

You must hear that a lot, Dave… /daytripper ;^) Heh, heh, heh.  When I am in Labrador with one of the grand kids, we (the guide and I) always place the guide to the left of the grand son.  When we putt-putt up river, the guide is in the middle and Jeff or Brian is in the stern.  When we float down river bow first, we reverse locations.  One guide actually said "Shift" when we were to make the transition.  <g See you up there the week of the 6th?  I’ll have a six pack of Sleeman’s.  Hafta save the rest for the NC Gang in October. Dave L.

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[snip] See you up there the week of the 6th?  I’ll have a six pack of Sleeman’s.  Hafta save the rest for the NC Gang in October.

It’s looking good so far. I have to move my younger son into his college dorm on the 5th, the older one doesn’t leave for London ’til the 20th, so I should be able to come up for a few days at least. How many are you going to be? Need a bunky, Bunky? ;^) fwiw: Had a lovely day in Wellfleet, and now I’m sitting on a deck chair clicking away under starlight, accompanied by the sounds of the sea. Opus the Wonderlab is conked out against my feet, a cool Dundee’s rests within reach. Very nice indeed. /daytripper

Response:

Tripper: <<Had a lovely day in Wellfleet, and now I’m sitting on a deck chair clicking away under starlight, accompanied by the sounds of the sea. Opus the Wonderlab is conked out against my feet, a cool Dundee’s rests within reach. Ahaaa, a Dundee’s.  I have converted another. I invited wayno up, but I haven’t heard from him.  I think he’s still in St. Louis.  Jo isn’t going — she’s heading to Georgia for a family reunion.  Just me and Henry.  Room for more if you wish.  I tied up something that I think will be a killer.  Will show you up there.  I had problems with it (parachute), but Peter set me right.  I still have two mountain bikes up there, so if you come, don’t bother with your’s.                         I need to do some fishing! Dave

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I invited wayno up, but I haven’t heard from him.  I think he’s still in St. Louis.  Jo isn’t going — she’s heading to Georgia for a family reunion.   Dave

ok now dave…surely you’ve noticed something here, eh?  wayno in st. louis, jo headed to georgia???  hmmm… <ggg jeff

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Jeff Miller: <<ok now dave…surely you’ve noticed something here, eh?  wayno in st. louis, jo headed to georgia???  hmmm… <ggg   <BSEG  Jo isn’t going to Georgia until September.  Besides, wayno loves life.  Course, you could come also.  The alewifes will be running and the salmon going crazy over them. Dave L.

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Charlie Choc: <<ok now dave…surely you’ve noticed something here, eh?  wayno in st. louis, jo headed to georgia???  hmmm… <ggg

Shhhhhhh<g. — Charlie… You forgot the "iiiiitttttttt".  <g Dave…

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dave –  fished the ale-wife streams during my younger years…but the ale-husbands always got tangled in my line…now, i’m absolutely content in the nc trout streams…but, i’ve been talkin to pj about takin a look at Maine next year.  we’ve never been that far north.  do we need a visa? jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff Miller: <<ok now dave…surely you’ve noticed something here, eh?  wayno in st. louis, jo headed to georgia???  hmmm… <ggg   <BSEG  Jo isn’t going to Georgia until September.  Besides, wayno loves life.  Course, you could come also.  The alewifes will be running and the salmon going crazy over them. Dave L.

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Jeff Miller: <<dave –  fished the ale-wife streams during my younger years…but the ale-husbands always got tangled in my line…now, i’m absolutely content in the nc trout streams…but, i’ve been talkin to pj about takin a look at Maine next year.  we’ve never been that far north.  do we need a visa? Visa?  No, but you should probably put a leash on PJ once you get into Pennsylvania or New York.  <g  I was thinking about old PJ this morning and his come back when I said I was gonna kick his ass.  He said, "Better bring your lunch."  LOL.  Hell, I think I’d need a catoring truck.  <g   I hope you can both make it next year. Oh, yeah……. if you drive up, *you* drive.  <g Dave LaCourse

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I’ve been having pretty good luck on the Grand with streamers lately. The water is high and off colour so the dry acttion is very slow and I’m not much of a nympher.  (BTW, is a female angler who nymphs, a nymphette?)  Anyway, I’m out slugging streamers with my six weight and I’ve taken a few fish when I notice a few rises, nothing regular but things are starting to happen. At about 6:30, I notice the water is literally carpeted with trico spinners.  Every square foot must have between 20 to 50 of the little buggers.  Now the browns are rising regularly but with so many naturals, will I stand a chance? A small fish was working a seam and I put a few casts over him, directly through his window, but no dice.  My ties are size 22 and the naturals are about a 24, so I use my clippers to reduce the wings.  I add on about 3′ of 7X to my 9′ leader and start looking for a new victim. While I was doing the manicure thing, a huge brown makes a massive rise about 75′ upstream.  But that’s it, nothing more.  So I concentrate on a small one working another seam in front of me.  After about 30 casts, the little guy finally takes it and I land a nice, bright 8" brown. I work my way upstream toward the big one but she doesn’t show herself again.  A nice sized fish is working regularly so I decide to go after him instead.  Now things get difficult.  First off, I’m trying to short cast a #22 on a 12′ 7X leader with my stout six weight streamer rod – not good.  Second problem, the trout is not working a seam, rather he’s drifting around a big flat and his rises are neither regular nor consistently in the same spot.  Without belabouring things, I cast to this bugger for an hour.  There are so many naturals on the water that many times I think he’s taken the fly when he’s really taken a natural that was riding beside it.  Twice I think I’ve bumped him and put him down, but the dining is too good and he never pauses.  Since he has no rhythym, I’m often in midcast when he comes up.  Sometimes I have the pleasure of watching my fly drift through the spreading rings of his rise it having arrived two seconds too late. Finally I realize that is fish has got the better of me so I make the decision to try ten more casts then call it quits.  Ten nothing . . . nine nothing . . . then on number six, he takes it.  After a short but stubborn fight I land him, a nice 11" brown. This is one of those evenings that will stay stuck in my memory for a long time.  A finicky fish, an absolutely massive trico spinner fall, and finally scoring when I had decided to quit.  Just to add to the evening, I crossed Bronte Creek on the way home and ran into a trico snowstorm on the bridge — yeeeuuch what a mess. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.cgocable.net/~pcharles/index.html

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Peter Charles: (great story snip) <<Just to add to the evening, I crossed Bronte Creek on the way home and ran into a trico snowstorm on the bridge — yeeeuuch what a mess. May have been a mess, Peter, but it was an enjoyable read.  <g When is your float trip down the Grand? Dave LaCourse

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At about 6:30, I notice the water is literally carpeted with trico spinners.  Every square foot must have between 20 to 50 of the little buggers.  Now the browns are rising regularly but with so many naturals, will I stand a chance?

I’m going down to Silver Creek to fish the trico hatch this morning. Here’s the way it works there. (Repeating something I posted a few days ago.) When the spinner fall starts — which can be truly massive — pods of large fish start feeding together. They don’t rise to individual flies. They just stay on the surface, with their heads sweeping back and forth, gulping large numbers of flies. If you’re lucky or knowledgeable enough to be above one of these pods it gets really exciting. You have to present the fly downstream right into a fish’s mouth. They won’t budge for an individual fly. The fish are so gluttonous at this point that if you put down the pod with a clumsy take-up they’re back to feeding in just a few seconds. There are trico spinner patterns but I don’t use them because I can’t see them. I use the much more visible dun pattern, which seems to work fine. With so many flies the fish don’t inspect each one with their customary finickyness. — Those who say do not know; those who know do not say. — Lao Tsu, who must have been a fisherman. something bogus to avoid spam)

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… This is one of those evenings that will stay stuck in my memory for a long time.  A finicky fish, an absolutely massive trico spinner fall, and finally scoring when I had decided to quit. …

Very nice. Thanks for the play by play. Fishing the spinner fall is one of the more challenging exercises in fishing the small fly. Nice to know that SOMEONE can have success at it, and with a 6wt to boot ! — Ken Fortenberry

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When is your float trip down the Grand? Dave LaCourse

I’m scheduled the weekend before the Canadian Thanksgiving, October 10th.  Scott is included and Barney Jones, co-owner of Grindstone Angling, will be our guide.  Knowing full well his reaction, I asked Barney if he will get us into fish.  He put his arm around me in a fatherly fashion and said, "Son, I can bring you to the fish, but *you* have to catch’em."  Must be a real guide, eh? Peter

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m going down to Silver Creek to fish the trico hatch this morning. Here’s the way it works there. (Repeating something I posted a few days ago.) When the spinner fall starts — which can be truly massive — pods of large fish start feeding together. They don’t rise to individual flies. They just stay on the surface, with their heads sweeping back and forth, gulping large numbers of flies. If you’re lucky or knowledgeable enough to be above one of these pods it gets really exciting. You have to present the fly downstream right into a fish’s mouth. They won’t budge for an individual fly. The fish are so gluttonous at this point that if you put down the pod with a clumsy take-up they’re back to feeding in just a few seconds. There are trico spinner patterns but I don’t use them because I can’t see them. I use the much more visible dun pattern, which seems to work fine. With so many flies the fish don’t inspect each one with their customary finickyness.

I wish they had been feeding this way; it would have made life simple. No these fish were rising as if they were targeting individuals. There could have been as much as a minute between rises and the fish were widely scattered.  Totally different behaviour from what you described.  I guess this is part of what makes this business so interesting. Peter

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Question:

My favorite river appears to have a hatch of what somebody told me was Crane Flys.  The insects torso hangs below the wings and the bottom of the torso comes around and looks like it connects with the thorax.  Imagine a flying J with wings on the top part of the J and you have the insect I am talking about. Does anybody have any information on these insects and if so, what patterns best imitate them. Thanks! Mike Wilson Fishing!! What else is there?

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FlyFis4fun: <<Does anybody have any information on these insects and if so, what patterns best imitate them. Patterns are in "Fly Patterns of Umpqua Feather Merchants", and Stewrt/Allen’s "Flies for trout".  Both adult and larva patterns are listed.  I can not imagine the crane fly as a major hatch, but if you say so…… Dave LaCourse

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My favorite river appears to have a hatch of what somebody told me was Crane Flys.  The insects torso hangs below the wings and the bottom of the torso comes around and looks like it connects with the thorax.  Imagine a flying J with wings on the top part of the J and you have the insect I am talking about.

If they are indeed crane flies, also know as "daddy long legs" they belong to the family tipulidae, and are terrestrials which often fall on the water in considerable numbers, especially when it is windy,  being very clumsy fliers.  They are often imitated using long trailing knotted pheasant tail or nylon legs, body, hackle, and hackle tip spent wings to match the colour, usually from light tan to dark brown, but olive and yellow variations are also common.  An excellent pattern may be made using detached buoyant mayfly bodies. TL MC

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Thanks for the information gentleman but it appears that the insect that I am seeing is something other then the Crane Fly.   The insect in question, as afore mentioned, is a pale tan to whiteish tan and flys with its torso bent around to connect near its thorax.  It hatches in fair numbers though I must admit, I have never seen any of them actually land on the water.  The primary food on this river is Stone Flys so this is more of a question exploration then anything else. Thanks for the help so far. Mike

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for the information gentleman but it appears that the insect that I am seeing is something other then the Crane Fly. The insect in question, as afore mentioned, is a pale tan to whiteish tan and flys with its torso bent around to connect near its thorax.  It hatches in fair numbers though I must admit, I have never seen any of them actually land on the water.  The primary food on this river is Stone Flys so this is more of a question exploration then anything else. Thanks for the help so far. Mike

Hi Mike, how big is this insect ?  Does it hatch from the water, or does it just appear on the water ? TL MC

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Many Crane Fly species are terrestial, living in damp soil.  Aquatic species are usually found in streams with bottoms of fine gravel silt or sand.  Pupation usually takes place in damp soil along stream margins and is therefore of little account to the flyfisherperson. The larvae are simple and tube like and usually not available to fish as they burrow rather deeply and have no swimming abilities.  They are available during spates and may be represented by wooly worms.  The "Muskrat", an old Polly Rosborough pattern is another Crane Fly larva imitation.  Adults seem to be more available during light summer rains and may be represented by any appropriately sized and colored dry fly. As I write this I am watching a hiuge cranefly llumbering around the room….here in the Northwest there is a species that frequents lawns(well watered) and in climax years actually causes quite a bit of damage to the turf. Thanks for the information gentleman but it appears that the insect that I am seeing is something other then the Crane Fly.   The insect in question, as afore mentioned, is a pale tan to whiteish tan and flys with its torso bent around to connect near its thorax.  It hatches in fair numbers though I must admit, I have never seen any of them actually land on the water.  The primary food on this river is Stone Flys so this is more of a question exploration then anything else. Thanks for the help so far. Mike

– Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                          Tom McGuane

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The insect in question, as afore mentioned, is a pale tan to whiteish tan and flys with its torso bent around to connect near its thorax.  It hatches in fair numbers though I must admit, I have never seen any of them actually land on the water.  The primary food on this river is Stone Flys so this is more of a question exploration then anything else. Thanks for the help so far. Mike

Hello Mike, I sometimes fish a limestone stream in Eastern Pennsylvania  where Orange Craneflys (orange head) gather in clusters all along the stream banks and edge of water.  The locals have an easy to tie pattern for the orange cranefly that is very effective..  Basically, your going to tie a dry fly without a tail or wings — just body, legs, & head.   Very lightly dubbed muskrat body with Dun colored hackle, use orange thread and build a small head.  I hope this helps. Dave

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My favorite river appears to have a hatch of what somebody told me was Crane Flys.  The insects torso hangs below the wings and the bottom of the torso comes around and looks like it connects with the thorax.  Imagine a flying J with wings on the top part of the J and you have the insect I am talking about. If they are indeed crane flies, also know as "daddy long legs"

I don’t know about where you live, Mike, but in the US Crane Flies and Daddy Long Legs are not at all the same thing. Crane Flies actually have wings and fly. They look like gigantic mosquitoes, but they don’t bite. Daddy Long Legs look like large spiders (but they aren’t spiders). They don’t have wings.

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Crane Flies:   When I was in Ireland a few summers ago, the gillie taught me how to "dibble" for salmon: He put a relatively heavy wet fly at the end of my leader, and then a bushy dry fly on a dropper, about 6′ up from the tippet.   The idea was to use the wet fly as an anchor, and then bob the rod tip, so the dry fly danced on the surface of the water…on the surface one second, then suddenly 6" above, like a big bug jumping up and down on the water.   So I haven’t tried this over hear yet, frankly, but talking about it did lead to some interesting new information. I told this story to George Anderson,   and he said  "Sure, the guys over in Dillon (MT) have been fishing the crane fly hatch on the Beaverhead that way for years!" — /* Sandy Pittendrigh                  –oO0  * http://www.nervana.montana.edu/~sandy  */

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They look like giant mosquitoes…so how about a size 2 mosquito??? George

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Fish the larvae The trout eat them Lots easier to tie too… a Beaver leech — Free Lake Fly Fishing On-Line Magazine Lake Fly Fishing CD’s, Videos, Books http://www.rural.escape.ca/angling_north/fishing/organz.htm

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Question:

Aw c’mon, it’s not that bad!  I was there for the first time in September and thought that it was a great place to fish.  Fished two days with a guide and two days from shore and caught plenty of nice fish all four days.  I thought that the crowds were down from what I was led to believe.  

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Aw c’mon, it’s not that bad!  I was there for the first time in September and thought that it was a great place to fish.  Fished two days with a guide and two days from shore and caught plenty of nice fish all four days.  I thought that the crowds were down from what I was led to believe.

Hi J Miller The crowds on the Bighorn are not as big prior to June and after Labor Day. Even when it is crowded it is a great fishery. You can escape some of the crowds by fishing a back bays and side channels. — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products http://www.btsflyfishing.com Tiemco quality hooks, under $6.00 pkg/50

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jmiller writes:

Aw c’mon, it’s not that bad!  I was there for the first time in September and th ought that it was a great place to fish.  Fished two days with a guide and two d ays from shore and caught plenty of nice fish all four days.  I thought that the  crowds were down from what I was led to believe.   Absolutely everybody!  Come on out!!  May I suggest the excellent Orvis Shop on the outskirts of Fort Smith?  And for first class lodging don’t forget the justifiably world famous Big Horn Lodge at 12 mile takeout!  Their guides can get anyone into fish! World class fishing in a pristine uncrowded environment.  

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aw c’mon, it’s not that bad!  I was there for the first time in September and thought that it was a great place to fish.  Fished two days with a guide and two days from shore and caught plenty of nice fish all four days.  I thought that the crowds were down from what I was led to believe. Hi J Miller The crowds on the Bighorn are not as big prior to June and after Labor Day. Even when it is crowded it is a great fishery. You can escape some of the crowds by fishing a back bays and side channels. — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products http://www.btsflyfishing.com Tiemco quality hooks, under $6.00 pkg/50

CHRIST AL!  Isn’t anything sacred with you around?  You already have Miss Horn stripped naked, and now you want everyone to rape her?  Her over-crowding is due to reporting and writing examples exactly like this.  How else can you slit her throat, tear her heart out?  Why don’t you tell everybody about the private airport there, right below the dam so they can fly in and the guides pick them up?  Don’t let any stone unturned! Why don’t you start submitting some line-drawings of every side ditch, side channel, and all the back-waters?  And .12 cents a hook is too much money!  What won’t you do for a buck Al as you sell Japanese and screw America in the same postings? You lack common-sense Mr. Beatty.  Remind me never to invite you to go fishing with me to any of my secret places.  You would blab it all away to the gill-netters and bait fishing hogs who listen to every word everyone says here. I am seriously disappointed in your unresponsible sharing of the finest waters left in Montana.  The Big Horn is going to get exactly what you think she deserves.   No wonder Jesus threw the money-changers out of the house of God.  I only wish now, that house was in Montana. Mr. G.

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It’s not like the Bighorn is a secret of any sorts and I’m sure that if there are "secret spots" along its shores Mr. Beatty’s comments do in no way direct the bait casting masses to them, he merely restated, politely, what EVERY book on the subject of flyfishing has said for years, don’t overlook the side channels, back eddies, and feeder creeks.  I’m surprised at your ire, it seems unreasonable mr.sportsman. Bob

Remind me never to invite you to go – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – fishing with me to any of my secret places.  You would blab it all away to the gill-netters and bait fishing hogs who listen to every word everyone says here.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aw c’mon, it’s not that bad!  I was there for the first time in September and thought that it was a great place to fish.  Fished two days with a guide and two days from shore and caught plenty of nice fish all four days.  I thought that the crowds were down from what I was led to believe. Hi J Miller The crowds on the Bighorn are not as big prior to June and after Labor Day. Even when it is crowded it is a great fishery. You can escape some of the crowds by fishing a back bays and side channels. — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products http://www.btsflyfishing.com Tiemco quality hooks, under $6.00 pkg/50 CHRIST AL!  Isn’t anything sacred with you around?  You already have Miss Horn stripped naked, and now you want everyone to rape her?  Her over-crowding is due to reporting and writing examples exactly like this.  How else can you slit her throat, tear her heart out?  Why don’t you tell everybody about the private airport there, right below the dam so they can fly in and the guides pick them up?  Don’t let any stone unturned! Why don’t you start submitting some line-drawings of every side ditch, side channel, and all the back-waters?  And .12 cents a hook is too much money!  What won’t you do for a buck Al as you sell Japanese and screw America in the same postings? You lack common-sense Mr. Beatty.  Remind me never to invite you to go fishing with me to any of my secret places.  You would blab it all away to the gill-netters and bait fishing hogs who listen to every word everyone says here. I am seriously disappointed in your unresponsible sharing of the finest waters left in Montana.  The Big Horn is going to get exactly what you think she deserves. No wonder Jesus threw the money-changers out of the house of God.  I only wish now, that house was in Montana. Mr. G.

Whats another thousand people or more….eventually people will figure out the Big Horn is too crowded and they will move along to the next river…and then the next river…sadly though, the people that come to Montana to fish once had nice trout streams in their home states…and they could have good fishing streams again if they would give up for one season that trip to Montana and invest the money, and the time in doing something for their local stream…the Battenkill is a good case in point..I was reading a story by Geoff Norman, a Vermont writer, in Snow Country Mag…he was telling people where to fish around the country…one such place was the Battenkill..he called it "a stately little stream.." and "a demanding river that holds big brown trout.." What he doesn’t tell you is two companies put 75-100 canoes on the river every summer day from 8am-9pm…and he doesn’t tell you that Fish and Game can’t do a decent creel survey because there aren’t enough fisherman…maybe people should go to Vermont this summer..they could fish the Battenkill all day and not see another fisherman! Of course the fish are demanding…and not existant.

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I usually ignore the inane or inappropriate posts to this newsgroup, but I can’t let this infuriating one go unchallenged.   To Al Beatty:  Thank you for your continuing honest and accurate newsgroup postings.  I have learned from months of reading them, and from comparing them to my own experiences, that they are informative, accurate, and reliable.  You have helped me and others make occasional decisions concerning flyfishing equipment, technique, and destinations. Please continue your forthright and helpful postings to this newsgroup.   To Mr. G:  Shame on you!

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I usually ignore the inane or inappropriate posts to this newsgroup, but I can’t let this infuriating one go unchallenged. To Al Beatty:  Thank you for your continuing honest and accurate newsgroup postings.  I have learned from months of reading them, and from comparing them to my own experiences, that they are informative, accurate, and reliable.  You have helped me and others make occasional decisions concerning flyfishing equipment, technique, and destinations. Please continue your forthright and helpful postings to this newsgroup. To Mr. G:  Shame on you!

You are probably right Mr. Anderson but it doesn’t mean I need to tell the whole world what rivers they should attack so it can become overcrowded and ruined as ‘a quality experience’.  You take the Net’s power, too much for granted for it is an awesome thing that can mistreat the environment as well as enhance it.  When you go on the Big Horn again and see what such posts will do to it . . . then you live with it.  I’m not here to win a popularity contest by supporting a likable guy that is wrong, and in my opinion, telling everyone in the world where to apply fishing pressure where increased fishing pressure cannot be increased or tolerated requires no apology from me for being frank, honest, and straight-forward.  The truth shouldn’t  hurt unless it should, but in this case, it will be once again a fishery that will pay the price.  Shame on me?!  Hardly, sir! I respect your views . . . but when it comes to the majority, the majority is usually wrong . . . as in this case.  It was the majority that nailed Jesus Christ to the Cross and Joan of Ark to the stake, and it will be the majority that is destroying the Big Horn.  In fact, it already has . . . or haven’t you noticed lately, Mr. Anderson?  Lastly, bear in mind that I’m not Al Beatty’s me-too boy and neither are you, I’m sure, but it was wrong, wrong, wrong to pound a fishery to the point where the entire weight of humanity suddenly is a weight even you, one day, will not be able to tolerate.  Be not so quick to destroy your own reverie in the name of business.  The west, doesn’t have THAT MUCH more good waters left.  Why push it? I therefore must tell you, I feel and deserve no Shame.  Not when it comes to the Big Horn.  Not when Montana still had one good river still running through her.  Kiss her goodby, I think.  The next question is, what other unsung, wonderful fishery do you think you and Beatty should direct the entire fly fishing trade too now?  There isn’t a good river in the world that isn’t destroyed by writers.  I will have none of it. Let your customers find their own places.  Let them fish right outside your door or isn’t there enough fish there anymore?  Don’t send them my way.   Yellowstone Park deserves that trade. But overall, you are right.  But I said nothing about how Al’s experience is helpful to the general public, did I?  I specifically addressed what I think is an inappropriate advertisment for everyone to run to an already over-crowed fishery.  I was one of the first ‘white-men’ to fish this Indian Reservation.  When it was common to hook Rainbows over ten pounds! Kiss that fishery and sizes goodby forever also . . . due to the lack of writing tact!  John Merwin was able to get to it long after it was opened and it was still good enough to have a few remaining giant genes in it.  Ask John Merwin about what I’m talking about and then ask him what happened to that fishery after HE WROTE ABOUT IT!  He sold magazines alright.  That was his business as an editor.  But look who paid the price. Shame on me?  No way Mr. Anderson.  No way at all!  And don’t you dare chew me out for things I never did regarding Mr. Beatty.  I said nothing about his helpfulness, his experiences, his exactness, his knowledge of equipment, about you, about anything regarding his usefulness as a fly fishing capitalist.  Did I?  I’m talking about demeaning a fishery that is already over-burdened, and now this man want to expose the Big Horn’s remaining gene pools for access by the public? Now, I know the general public won’t like this view because they want the easy way out.  I hunt for my areas.  They don’t come to me as a free gift. And when I find them, I keep them lifetime secrets.  Sacred and dear as they are, places in my life I want no others and I don’t care if it is you, my wife, friendly Mr. Beatty, or the President.  I don’t want anyone else there if humanly possible.  Those off the beaten path ways remaining in the Big Horn area are such areas.  Now, the ‘general public’ has been given the entire river Mr. Anderson.  Now, the general public has it all! Don’t chew me out for being frank, but you both are wrong.  And If I’m wrong in my view, I guarantee you I’ll pay the price for it and enough of my friends will tell me so, but I don’t have many areas in America that are sacred and private anymore.  It goes from bad, to worse . . . and none of it is my doing.  You flamed a frank, open and honest opinion that stands on its own merits Mr. Anderson.  I for one don’t deserve your kind of shaming.  Your entire posted support of Al Beatty has nothing to do with what was being discussed, and you know that.  I happen to like the man a lot myself.  It doesn’t mean I have to be his or your ‘yes man’ now, does it?   I don’t think Al Beatty would want me treat him like that.  And I still think paying .12 Cents Each for a Japanese Dry Fly hook is still too much money.  The reason the prices are that high is because no one is stopping from buying them.  I won’t buy a Tiemco Hook at that price. Not when there is only three cents of material in an entire box of 100 each.  How do I know?  I was in Japan and I know about hook manufacturing.  The box or package cost more than the 100 size 16 hooks that are inside.  Think about that truth for a change and tell me, shame on me. mercy, indeed. Mr. G.

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to mr. gherke: get a life

Response:

Al writes… The crowds on the Bighorn are not as big prior to June and after Labor Day. Even when it is crowded it is a great fishery. You can escape some of the crowds by fishing a back bays and side channels. — Mr. G Writes… CHRIST AL!  Isn’t anything sacred with you around?…Snip

Go before June or after Labor day?  I would hardly call that a big secret.  It applies to all of Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, etc…oops I guess I gave away a secret too. MikeH

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PA I usually ignore the inane or inappropriate posts to this newsgroup, but PA I can’t let this infuriating one go unchallenged. PA PA To Mr. G:  Shame on you! Thanks Mr. G for taking a stand against telling the world about M******’s favorite fishing spots. I like Al too, and I guess everyone has to make a living. Personally, I have witnessed far too many styrofoam worm containers on my "private" fishing stretches and I am no longer inclined to tell anyone about my favorite waters (which you will recognize from our mutual friends J & Elna) You might have been a little rough on him considering you have personally told the world about the Skwala hatch (which I personally invented for a little early season fun and don’t appreciate you sharing with others). I forgive you as long as you promise to totally mislead everyone you ever talk to from now on as to exactly what a Skwala is (bright Red with Bright Yellow Stripes);-) and NEVER, EVER tell them what continent these can be found on, much less what four rivers these can be found on. It is human nature to share something that gives us so much pleasure with others that we care about. It is also human nature for many of those others to come trash it with no regard to our feelings. Let us all learn from this experience and let others have the fun of discovering new waters all by themselves. Perhaps you were having a bad day, but I know your heart was in the right place (M******) and I for one appreciate it. I appreciate you too Al! Dennis Vick … nfx v2.6 [C0000]                                                        

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CHRIST AL!  Isn’t anything sacred with you around?  You already have Miss Horn stripped naked, and now you want everyone to rape her? What won’t you do for a buck Al as you sell Japanese and screw America in the same postings?

What’s the matter George?  Does Al keep it up better than you?  I mean his floatant of course…  I’ve said it before George, one blue pill four times a day, not four all at once.

Response:

I usually ignore the inane or inappropriate posts to this newsgroup, but I can’t let this infuriating one go unchallenged. To Al Beatty:  Thank you for your continuing honest and accurate newsgroup postings.  I have learned from months of reading them, and from comparing them to my own experiences, that they are informative, accurate, and reliable.  You have helped me and others make occasional decisions concerning flyfishing equipment, technique, and destinations. Please continue your forthright and helpful postings to this newsgroup. To Mr. G:  Shame on you!

  Nice post Phil. As soon as I saw George’s original post, I sent an e-mail to Al, sharing the same opinions you posted to the group. After two years of lurking this ng, I’ve never seen anybody flame Al Beatty like this. Al doesn’t deserve it, his posts have been more informative than anybody’s; I hope he realizes many of us consider him to be the most knowledgable industry insider who regularly posts on this newsgroup.   There is a vast amount of FF travel info offered up in the media (print, broadcast, www, "how to" videos, etc) and I doubt if any of us hasn’t cringed to see our favorite local water hyped far and wide. I read reviews of "destination" fishing locales with passing interest; I’m hardly inclined to rush right off because some spot was highlighted in this months glossy magazine. In fact, I tend to avoid those places, assuming they will be crowded.   When I pick up a magazine and read about our local rivers I don’t condemn the author. I break out the Delorme map book and find a new place to go, way up in the high country. (Those are the spots to be kept secret, not some 1000+ cfs public waterway.)   I wish I owned my very own river, I’d invite all of you over to fish on it. But hell, there would probably be some guy complaining because I had invited all the rest of you people.                                   Charlie Wilson

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I usually ignore the inane or inappropriate posts to this newsgroup, but I can’t let this infuriating one go unchallenged. (snipped) To Mr. G:  Shame on you! You are probably right Mr. Anderson but it doesn’t mean I need to tell the whole world what rivers they should attack so it can become overcrowded and ruined as ‘a quality experience’.  You take the Net’s power, too much for granted for it is an awesome thing that can  destroying the Big Horn.  In fact, it already has . . . or haven’t you noticed lately, Mr. Anderson?  Lastly, bear in mind that I’m not Al (snipped) Mr. G.

Now that we’ve brought Jesus Christ and Joan of Arc in this, why should I go where even angels will fear to tread.  Undaunted, however, I will press my point.  George, I fully support Mr. Anderson’s view, and I think you are way out of line on this one.  This is the Bighorn we are talking about, not some unknown water suddenly disclosed over the internet.   Unless you just woke up this morning from a 10 year nap, you know that it is overcrowded (at times) and overfished.  Whether or not Al or anyone else discusses the Bighorn will make no difference. I can personally vouch for the fact that Al Beatty does not post about certain rivers, or portions thereof, to avoid creating undue pressure on those areas.  With the Bighorn, however, there is no reason for him to withold helpful comments broadcast over the newsgroup, because people will go there anyway. And to Al, thanks for all of your contributions. Mark Faulkner

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m thinking of trying the Bighorn River near Ft. Smith in late October. Is there wade fishing available or must I float to fish? What is the weather likely to be that time of the year? I read the Bighorn is VERY crowded. How about in late October? If anyone has any information I’d really appreciate the help. Thanks. The Bighorn in late October will not be as crowded in October as in the summer, it can still be busy. As far as the weather better bring your wool hat and gloves as well as short sleeves. It tough to predict but more likely cold rather then hot. Boats are used for transportation on the river more then for fishing. Bill Page

Seriously?  Want the truth?  There isn’t a fish there that hasn’t had a hook put into its face.  You take it from there.  And yes, you need to be guided on it in a drift boat.  You may fly fish inbetween the spin fishermen using treble hooks. And no matter what others tell you, the Mepps gang is there. Have fun. Mr. G.

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I’m thinking of trying the Bighorn River near Ft. Smith in late October. Is there wade fishing available or must I float to fish? What is the weather likely to be that time of the year? I read the Bighorn is VERY crowded. How about in late October? If anyone has any information I’d really appreciate the help. Thanks.

Hi David October is my favorite time for fishing Montana (including the Bighorn). The crowds are not as bad there at that time but still expect to see a few but it shouldn’t be the zoo it is earlier in the year. You can wade fish the Bighorn but some of those places are only accessable with a drift boat. You might consider a guided trip your first day and then rent a drift boat for future days. Most of the shops in Fort Smith rent boats and shuttle for you. The weather in Montana (especially around the Bighorn) is VOLITILE (?) with 50 degree temperature swings in a matter of minutes not uncommon. Dress in layers and be prepared for anything from a hot sunny day to a snow storm all in the same afternoon. Note: If you fly into Billings and rent a car to get to Ft Smith be aware that about six miles east of town you have to take an exit to stay on I-90 east to Hardin. It’s real easy to miss the exit and end up on the Hwy east to Miles City. Good luck. — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products http://www.btsflyfishing.com Tiemco quality hooks, under $6.00 pkg/50

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I’m thinking of trying the Bighorn River near Ft. Smith in late October. Is there wade fishing available or must I float to fish? What is the weather likely to be that time of the year? I read the Bighorn is VERY crowded. How about in late October? If anyone has any information I’d really appreciate the help. Thanks.

The Bighorn in late October will not be as crowded in October as in the summer, it can still be busy. As far as the weather better bring your wool hat and gloves as well as short sleeves. It tough to predict but more likely cold rather then hot. Boats are used for transportation on the river more then for fishing. Bill Page

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m thinking of trying the Bighorn River near Ft. Smith in late October. Is there wade fishing available or must I float to fish? What is the weather likely to be that time of the year? I read the Bighorn is VERY crowded. How about in late October? If anyone has any information I’d really appreciate the help. Thanks. The Bighorn in late October will not be as crowded in October as in the summer, it can still be busy. As far as the weather better bring your wool hat and gloves as well as short sleeves. It tough to predict but more likely cold rather then hot. Boats are used for transportation on the river more then for fishing. Bill Page

Seriously?  Want the truth?  There isn’t a fish there that hasn’t had a hook put into its face.  You take it from there.  And yes, you need to be guided on it in a drift boat.  You may fly fish inbetween the spin fishermen using treble hooks. Have fun. Mr. G.

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I’m thinking of trying the Bighorn River near Ft. Smith in late October. Is there wade fishing available or must I float to fish? What is the weather likely to be that time of the year? I read the Bighorn is VERY crowded. How about in late October? If anyone has any information I’d really appreciate the help. Thanks.

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Question:

I will be in the Utica NY area later this week and was wondering if anyone had any info on the local streams.  My time is limited while I’m there so I’m looking for easy stream access and decent fishing in a single area.  Thanks for the help. Trip — 14 Mamaroneck Ave                                phone: 914/948-6200 x7515 White Plains, NY 10601                           fax:   914/948-6270

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Richard, without a doubt you will want to make a visit to the West Canada about 30 min from Utica. Rte.12 north to the Rte.8 (Poland) exit to Rte. 28, make a left on Rte.28. Go a few miles to a parking area on the right. Fish up or downstream of the bridge. Although most major hatches are over you may encounter sporadic cream variant (prior to dark) and definitely caddis (#14 tan, #18 black). There are always plenty of caddis and plenty of fish (browns). Water conditions have been excellent. Good luck and let me know how you make out.

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The West Canda Creek, 15 minutes north of Utica is a blue-ribbon trout stream with a section of "artificials-only". Its a fabulous trout stream, as good as anything isn the east, but not well known outside of the Utica area. I learned to fish on the WCC when I was about 8(40 yrs ago) and spent many a summer day there with my grandfather. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly I will be in the Utica NY area later this week and was wondering if anyone had any info on the local streams.  My time is limited while I’m there so I’m looking for easy stream access and decent fishing in a single area.  Thanks for the help. Trip — **** System Management ARTS                               email:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -14 Mamaroneck Ave                            phone: 914/948-6200 x7515 White Plains, NY 10601                               fax:   914/948-6270

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Question:

Hey.  Lately I have been fishing a small stream which contains a good population of wild brookies.  Have had great success in getting them to rise to my dry flies, but have had little or no success hooking them.  I fear a deficiency in my dry fly technique; any hints regarding hook setting would be greatly appreciated.  The fish average about 5 inches long, and are hitting various parachute-style dries (Royal Wulffs, Adams, Hare’s Ears, etc.) in mostly sizes 12 and 14.  I am sure I am doing something wrong, I just don’t know what. Thanks, Tom.

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 Hey.  Lately I have been fishing a small stream which contains a good  population of wild brookies.  Have had great success in getting them to  rise to my dry flies, but have had little or no success hooking them.

Little brookies like that will turn on the dry fly in an attempt to drown it first.  Don’t pick up the line — they will likely take it after it’s under the water.

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Hey.  Lately I have been fishing a small stream which contains a good population of wild brookies.  Have had great success in getting them to rise to my dry flies, but have had little or no success hooking them.  I fear a deficiency in my dry fly technique; any hints regarding hook setting would be greatly appreciated.  The fish average about 5 inches long, and are hitting various parachute-style dries (Royal Wulffs, Adams, Hare’s Ears, etc.) in mostly sizes 12 and 14.  I am sure I am doing something wrong, I just don’t know what. Thanks, Tom.

You may be attempting to set the fly. Let the trout take the fly and hook himself. If you do this you will most always find the fly hooked in the corner of his mouth this also make it harder for the trout to unhook himself. I have yanked many a dry fly out of the mouth of an interested trout. Norm

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Hey.  Lately I have been fishing a small stream which contains a good  population of wild brookies.  Have had great success in getting them to  rise to my dry flies, but have had little or no success hooking them. Little brookies like that will turn on the dry fly in an attempt to drown it first.  Don’t pick up the line — they will likely take it after it’s under the water.

Also, the fly might be too large, try some #16 – # 20 next time out.

Response:

Hey.  Lately I have been fishing a small stream which contains a good population of wild brookies.  Have had great success in getting them to rise to my dry flies, but have had little or no success hooking them.  I fear a deficiency in my dry fly technique; any hints regarding hook setting would be greatly appreciated.  The fish average about 5 inches long, and are hitting various parachute-style dries (Royal Wulffs, Adams, Hare’s Ears, etc.) in mostly sizes 12 and 14.  I am sure I am doing something wrong, I just don’t know what. Thanks, Tom.

Trout this small have VERY soft mouths which tear very easily.  You are most likely literally ripping their mouth apart with the fly.   Why even fish for 5" trout?  They don’t behave like their bigger brothers and sisters (they’ll hit just about anything) and they don’t fight worth a darn.  I guess I don’t see the sport here. — Richard Nelson Spokane, Wa. "Its not that life is so short, its that death is sooo long."  

Question:

 bring and where to go.  I don’t mind traveling an hour to get to a good  fishing spot.

You’ll have to travel more than an hour.  The nearest stream worth fishing is probably the South Branch of the Au Sable, about three hours north, near Roscommon.  I don’t remember what hatches would be proceeding then — standard midsummer stuff.

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I will be in Auburn Hills, Michigan (near Pontiac, MI) on business from July 17 through July 22.  I would like to bring my fly rod with me and do some fishing.  Can someone out there give me some advice on what flys to bring and where to go.  I don’t mind traveling an hour to get to a good fishing spot.

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Question:

Recent posts on this and other locations have brought out some of the worst of those in our sport who have senselessly criticised equipment of particular brands and the anglers who use whatever happens to be on the "hit list." Two recent posts from another location provide a nice response, and I repeat them here: #1 Never feel that you have to apologize to anyone for the equipment you use. Most of the howlers are cheapskates who wouldn’t know a good rod if someone beat them over the head with it anyway, and they certainly don’t recognize that a good expensive rod is an investment in a lifetime (with reasonable care) of pleasure on the stream." #2 "If some people don’t like Orvis–so what? Think for yourself and do your own thing.  Owning Orvis products has about as much to do with being a yuppie as owning Scott or Winston.  Besides, who the hell really cares if someone *does* label you or me or Joe Blow a yuppie. Small-minded people need to fixate on simple-minded, non-issues–just look at our gov’mint!" Lyman Hughes                                               Dallas, TX                                               Ennis, MT

Response:

Recent posts on this and other locations have brought out some of the worst of those in our sport who have senselessly criticised equipment of particular brands and the anglers who use whatever happens to be on the "hit list." Two recent posts from another location provide a nice response, and I repeat them here: #1 Never feel that you have to apologize to anyone for the equipment you use. Most of the howlers are cheapskates who wouldn’t know

a good rod if someone beat them over the head with it anyway, and they certainly don’t recognize that a good expensive rod is an investment in a lifetime (with reasonable care) of pleasure on the stream." #2 "If some people don’t like Orvis–so what? Think for yourself and do your own thing.  Owning Orvis products has about as much to do with being a yuppie as owning Scott or Winston.  Besides, who the hell really cares if someone*does* label you or me or Joe Blow a yuppie. Small-minded people

need to fixate on simple-minded, non-issues–just look at our gov’mint!" Bravo! JL 8-Wt Editor

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To me, it does not matter whether you use an Orvis rod or a Diawa, all that really matters is whether you can catch "and release" fish!  Too many people get too esoteric about having the best equipment but why do you have to spend your all your money on equipment because Lefty Kreh has endorsed it?  I have some expensive equipment and I have cheap equipment and to tell you the truth, sometimes I can’t tell the difference. Remember, "A bad day of fishing is still better than a good day at work!" Tight Lines! Mark

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Re: whether you own an Orvis, etc…I’d be willing to bet a day’s pay that those "toy snobs" can’t cast their expensive trinkets worth a damned. And I bet they don’t fish more than 1 or 2 times a year, then only in perfectly calm, clear days.       In my past days as a professional photographer, I would listen to the same B.S. concerning cameras. You know, it’s not What you use, but HOW you use it that counts!    A cheap rod and cheap line fished properly will catch just as  many fish as the expensive stuff. It is technique and presentation that counts. The fish don’t give a damned if they are caught on a Winston or a Sears "special!"

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Most people use the best equipment they can afford, since it is almost always more enjoyable to use than something cheaper.  Why don’t most serious flyfishers by cheap rods and/or lines?  There is a difference, and you know it, so why be so negative? BTW, what kind of rod and line do you use, and what kind of camera did you use professionally? — Jim Benenson                 Los Alamos, New Mexico, USA "The commonplace is only the self-constructed wall that separates us from the marvelous"  Tom Brown, Jr.

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Begin Message—– snipped The fish don’t give a damned if they are caught on a Winston or a Sears "special!" snipped End Message ——- As I look through all of my spring fishing catalogs (Bean, Dan Bailey, Cabelas, Bass Pro, etc.)  I have to ask myself why a bait casting rod made out of IM6 graphite or any other new generation graphites costs 50% less than a fly rod made out of the same material.  I do not believe that the manufacturting processes are that disimilar. Some people might argue something about mandrels and tapers (I always thought that a mandrel was a baboon like primate).  But I really think that the prices are  high for fly rods simply because the market can bear it. BTW, Bass Pro has a good deal on some IM6 rods with a SA 2L reel for $179.00. I priced the reel elsewhere at $125.00. So its like getting an IM6 rod for $54.00.  I bought one last year when the combo sold for $169.00 and the rod is pretty nice casting (minor cosmetic imperfections in the varnishing and wrapping) My $0.02 Daern C. Valentine

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Begin Message—– snipped The fish don’t give a damned if they are caught on a Winston or a Sears "special!" snipped End Message ——- As I look through all of my spring fishing catalogs (Bean, Dan Bailey, Cabelas, Bass Pro, etc.)  I have to ask myself why a bait casting rod made out of IM6 graphite or any other new generation graphites costs 50% less than a fly rod made out of the same material.  I do not believe that the manufacturting processes are that disimilar. Some people might argue something about mandrels and tapers (I always thought that a mandrel was a baboon like primate).  But I really think that the prices are  high for fly rods simply because the market can bear it.

An experienced and honest angler will have to admit that a high-end rod, e.g., Scott, Sage, Winston, etc., just casts and "feels" better than an economy rod, e.g., Cabela’s, St. Croix, etc.  The latter rods can be great bargains, and there is no doubt that an accomplished fisher with a Cortland in hand will do better than a novice casting a T&T.  Clearly, technique is MUCH more important than equipment.  However, once you’ve reached a certain level of casting skill, you appreciate a well-made rod and it makes for a better fishing experience.  In addition, high-end rods just look nicer: There is more attention to design and they are finished better (as you point out, the rod you bought had "minor cosmetic imperfections").  For some people, like myself, this matters; for others, it may be totally irrelevant. There is no doubt that the markup on high-end rods is high.  But you have to consider that the production of many of these rods is extremely labor intensive.  Consider Scott, for example.  Scott matches tip sections to butt sections by hand, testing each butt with a variety of tips until the appropriate and desired  taper and flex pattern is achieved.  This is done for each rod individually. Many high-end rod companies (e.g., Sage) also put a lot of money into R&D trying to figure out what lengths, tapers, diameters, scrims, etc., are appropriate for various types of graphite and various line weights. All that said, it is certainly true that these rod companies know their market and are not shy about pricing their products. Comparing fly rods to spinning rods is unfair.  Don’t think that any two blanks made from IM6 (which, BTW, is second generation graphite and is about 5-6 years old now) are of equivalent quality and should be priced the same.  The quality of a spinning rod is much less important to casting than is the quality of a fly rod, and rod makers know this.  You can get away with many more imperfections in the blank on a spinning rod.  In addition, they are shorter.  Cost goes up nonlinearly with length because it is just a lot harder to make a straight 9 ft. blank that tapers from say, 1 cm to 2 mm, than to make an almost straight 7 ft. blank that tapers from 2 cm (or more on some of Cabela’s rods, e.g.) to 2 mm.  Put it this way:  You could do pretty well spin casting with your reel tied to a broom handle, but unless you are Lefty Kreh, you’d have a hell of a time getting more than a few feet of line out fly casting with such a rig. Finally, I’ll gladly take up "FlyFish887" on his casting bet for a day’s pay:  Just name the time and the place . . . TPM

Response:

writes: Re: whether you own an Orvis, etc…I’d be willing to bet a day’s pay that those "toy snobs" can’t cast their expensive trinkets worth a damned. And I bet they don’t fish more than 1 or 2 times a year, then only in perfectly calm, clear days.  In my past days as a professional photographer, I would listen to the same B.S. concerning cameras. You know, it’s not What you use, but HOW you use it that counts!    A cheap rod and cheap line fished properly will catch just as  many fish as the expensive stuff. It is technique and presentation that counts. The fish don’t give a damned if they are caught on a Winston or a Sears "special!"

I’ll take that bet. What do you consider "worth a damned"?  Distance?   Accuracy? I have a 9ft 7wt I can cast a standard flyline so far the backing is hanging out of the tiptop. Or how about picking up a bass bug at about 45 feet and with one false cast hit within 12 inches of a target at 65 feet. In my present days as a professional photo lab technician I also know that any _professional_ photographer is going to use top of the line equipment because it is dependable, rugged and has quality optics. People use Canons, Nikons, Hasselbads, not Ricoh, Pentax and Mamiya-Sekor.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Comparing fly rods to spinning rods is unfair.  Don’t think that any two blanks made from IM6 (which, BTW, is second generation graphite and is about 5-6 years old now) are of equivalent quality and should be priced the same.  The quality of a spinning rod is much less important to casting than is the quality of a fly rod, and rod makers know this.  You can get away with many more imperfections in the blank on a spinning rod.   This is all very nice but it’s not reflected in reality.  Take a close look   at blank vs finished rod prices in the Loomis catalogs, for instance, and   what comes through is that the majority of the differences in price between   spinning/casting and fly rods is in the rods and not the blanks themselves.     For example, look at several 9′ blanks and what happens to the final price   (these are GLoomis two-piece IMX rods):    Length      "Rating"    Blank price   Finished rod price      9′      6-10 lb line     $207            $330      9′      8-12 lb line     $214            $335      9′        6 weight       $171            $375      9′        7 weight       $182            $380   I think that the original poster was correct: there is a substantial premium   inherent in fly rod prices and it is not clear that there is a materials or   labor cost that warrants it.

These are interesting and useful data, but they cut both ways.  Your argument assumes that the blank prices are accurate reflections of production costs but that the finished rod prices are not.  If we assume that all costs reflect production costs plus a constant percentage markup (constant across rod types), the prices above indicate that spinning rods cost more to make (for a given length) but that fly rods cost more to finish.  If you are willing to question the increment from blank to finished rod for fly rods, why not also question the prices on blanks themselves.  Perhaps the markup is higher for spinning blanks than for fly rod blanks.  The real problem is that no one outside the company really knows what the production costs are and how items are priced for a given market. I’ll stick with my previous argument that the quality of the blank is much less important to spin fishing than to fly fishing, and hence, that comparing prices between spinning rods and fly rods is unfair.  However, I also strongly suspect that we fly fishers are not getting any bargains on premium rods. TPM

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