Question:
i-81, north of syracuse, turn right… hmmm, sounds like another snipe hunt… but, after participating in a few hundred of them, i’m still tryin to get the hang of it. so, pencil me in. jeff (more simpler) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’ve never fished naw yuk… so, plug me in as a definite maybe… but 2 days might not be ’nuff. …um, how do you get to allmur? It couldn’t be more simple. If’n you can get to I-81 anywhere between Tennessee & New York, you’ve got it licked. If you’re starting out in the I-95 corridor, pick the east/west interstate of your choice. Once you’re on I-81, stay on it until about 35 miles north of Syracure and turn right. At that point, you’re as good as there. Joe F.
Response:
you got a cah? …i got a truk. …but, if a truk will do, where is altmar? jeff Find Lake Ontario on a map of NY. Can’t miss it. Look for the big blue thing in the upper left.
FYI. I think that this year was one of the best I have had in many years, I spent a total of about 4-5 weeks on and off, fishing there. I have been fishing the Salmon River for over 18 years. The Salmon run started the first week in September, and my last trip finished up Sunday November 10th. To my amazement the Kings were still running into the river, and I found that most were still in excellent shape. Finished up the last day with a catch of 3 browns, ranging between 7-10lbs., one Steelhead rather small and several Kings. All were released. Arty PS, only broke one fly rod this season. Art(Arty)Santella
Response:
Unbelievably, it’s time to start considering whether or not you’re interested in a repeat (and hopefully, an improvement) on the 2002 Salmon River mini-clave. In 2003, we will not be staying at Malinda’s, only because she is already booked up for every weekend through October 19 (as is the Portly Angler and Whitaker’s). Rather than push the dates back and risk missing too much of the prime run, Craig & I have found another lodge that promises better accommodations than Malinda’s (I know, "How is that possible?" you ask.) and that actually has rooms available for the earlier weekend. So – if you are thinking you might want to book a room at clave central next year, October 16-19, 2003, email me & I’ll give you the location. Or, if there’s enough tentative interest at this early date, I’ll just book a second (or third?) room as I did last year. Joe F.
Response:
So – if you are thinking you might want to book a room at clave central next year, October 16-19, 2003, email me & I’ll give you the location. Or, if there’s enough tentative interest at this early date, I’ll just book a second (or third?) room as I did last year.
FYI: I’ve received enough "maybes" that I went ahead and booked a 4-person efficiency at the "Fish Inn Post" (www.fishinnpost.com) in Altmar, NY for the nights of 10/16/03 through 10/18/03. I will put down the deposit & hold this room for potential miniclavers. I have never been to this lodge & can’t attest to anything about it, but how bad could it be, eh? That ought to cover it until next summer, I’d expect. We’ll talk then. Joe F. p.s. If anyone would like a recommendation for a good guide, I’d recommend Pat Miura (http://members.aol.com/pmiura/index.html). I know he’s booked for Saturday, 10/18, but it’s not too early if you want to grab a different day.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So – if you are thinking you might want to book a room at clave central next year, October 16-19, 2003, email me & I’ll give you the location. Or, if there’s enough tentative interest at this early date, I’ll just book a second (or third?) room as I did last year. FYI: I’ve received enough "maybes" that I went ahead and booked a 4-person efficiency at the "Fish Inn Post" (www.fishinnpost.com) in Altmar, NY for the nights of 10/16/03 through 10/18/03. I will put down the deposit & hold this room for potential miniclavers. I have never been to this lodge & can’t attest to anything about it, but how bad could it be, eh? That ought to cover it until next summer, I’d expect. We’ll talk then. Joe F. p.s. If anyone would like a recommendation for a good guide, I’d recommend Pat Miura (http://members.aol.com/pmiura/index.html). I know he’s booked for Saturday, 10/18, but it’s not too early if you want to grab a different day.
I’ve stayed here a fw times and it’s a step up from Malinda’s. Paul
Response:
i’ve never fished naw yuk… so, plug me in as a definite maybe… but 2 days might not be ’nuff. …um, how do you get to allmur? jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – FYI: I’ve received enough "maybes" that I went ahead and booked a 4-person efficiency at the "Fish Inn Post" (www.fishinnpost.com) in Altmar, NY for the nights of 10/16/03 through 10/18/03. I will put down the deposit & hold this room for potential miniclavers. I have never been to this lodge & can’t attest to anything about it, but how bad could it be, eh?
Response:
i’ve never fished naw yuk… so, plug me in as a definite maybe… but 2 days might not be ’nuff. …um, how do you get to allmur?
cah
Response:
you got a cah? …i got a truk. …but, if a truk will do, where is altmar? jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’ve never fished naw yuk… so, plug me in as a definite maybe… but 2 days might not be ’nuff. …um, how do you get to allmur? cah
Response:
you got a cah? …i got a truk. …but, if a truk will do, where is altmar? jeff
Find Lake Ontario on a map of NY. Can’t miss it. Look for the big blue thing in the upper left. Altmar is about 10 miles east of the lake and about 5 miles east of Pulaski. Paul
Response:
i’ve never fished naw yuk… so, plug me in as a definite maybe… but 2 days might not be ’nuff. …um, how do you get to allmur?
It couldn’t be more simple. If’n you can get to I-81 anywhere between Tennessee & New York, you’ve got it licked. If you’re starting out in the I-95 corridor, pick the east/west interstate of your choice. Once you’re on I-81, stay on it until about 35 miles north of Syracure and turn right. At that point, you’re as good as there. Joe F.
Response:
Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Larry- Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet. Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material we have tested. Loop Knots: Bimini-100 percent, Uni knot- 96 percent, Monofilament loop- 87 percent, Perfection- 85 percent, 2X surgeons- 68 percent, 4X surgeons- 68 percent, 6X surgeons-81 percent, 7X surgeons-73 percent. FYI: the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent. the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent. the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent. the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent. -Ralph
DEAR RALPH: I disagree with the majority of your tests. Are you just using a regular pull scales or what? And the Dai Rikki comment I also don’t agree solidly with, but I don’t want to argue this with you because I don’t know what your controls are and the fact the IGFA specifies along with a breaking +/- % centage that there are more than one mono product(s) that breaks EXACTLY where they should and at EXACTLY the same breaking points in percentages in order to set "World Recognized IGFA Records". MAXIMA is one such product along with Andre, Trileen, etc. This is what makes your "most consistant comment" void (or dubious)and really, frankly biased in the face of real (already established) scientific facts compared to our and other scientific laboratory tests which have been conducted by major monofiliment companies. Yet, I am pleased you are getting into this field and that your interests are so strong. I hope you continue it, but I think you should ‘rethink’ your approach and possibly revisit your testing equipment and/or procedures. Test should be run both dry and wet and off the same spool stock or batch. Etc, etc. But I find serious disagreement with your percentages. Our recent tests with Knot-Perfect Knot Lube certainly changes the entire realm of how knots should behave and function. For true uniformity, this product will definately change test results . . . and all "CONSISTANTLY for the Better". I will send you some for your testing as a sponsor and supporter in your work, if you like. Just need a mailing address Ralph. Mr. G.
Response:
Hi George- Your letter is responding to Ralph H, not me, Ralph Cutter. Non-the-less I found your post amusing, and left me with a few questions: This is why I always fish with Maxima because I have a lifetime of fishing experience with this ONE BRAND. Every knot I tie in it is known. . . Now, this statement is about as bold as you can do, but lets face it. I know what the hell I’m doing. . . It means consistant breaking
or parting percentages every time. I’m curious as to why you chose Maxima. Of ALL the lines we have tested it is the most inconsistent. The diameter, color and strength vary greatly from spool to spool and we’ve noted up to .02 differences in the same spool. This is an observation made by several different line testers. Maxima is an old product. Over the past decade Polymer technologies have advanced almost as fast as computers. My old Kaypro was fine in its time, but in the case of plastics and computers newer is better. A breaking scale does not a scientist make.
That is why we employed a polymer chemist to help us with our testing parameters. Much of the actual testing was done by an engineer with thirty years of stress analysis at Lockheed and Kaiser. I also know that there are much more consistant breaking and more reliable tippet materials than those bragged about.
Please share these with us. I was also amused by your previous post stating saying your knot glue was a new and revoltionary concept that could change the face of flyfishing. Forty years ago Herter’s sold a glue that was guaranteed to make monolfilament knots 100 percent. When nylon was introduced, many knot glue products were sold to help people with this new slippery material. A good product probably; revolutionary, hardly. I agree fully with the concept of your glue. ZAP A GAP and PVC cement do the same. Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com /v/ /v/
Response:
If Tony and Spinolio got married they’d have offspring named Toniolio.
Easy for you, Tim to ponder Tony’s mating habits when your mouth has obviously been surgically attached to his fat ass <G. For the record, I have a tube of George’s knot-goop *and* I agree with Tony…noone I know would fool with it astream…a little spit-tle do ya…it snot that big of thing…
For the record I *don’t* have a tube and would never buy one (come fishing with me, Tim, and you’ll see how I tie knots). My post was in response to Gades telling George to stop posting, as if this were something Gades has the power to do. (Note to Gades: I got your big, bad hate mail, just as other people warned me I would. Apparently you’re becoming famous for this sort of thing. Very scary, but don’t flatter yourself…I would never actually email you). No good will become the fellow that needs lubricant to tie a knot.
Don’t look at me, you’re the one who bought it. Spinolio
Response:
Hi Rick- The Orvis Knot and the Mono loop knot tested virtually the same. E mail me your postal address and I’ll send you more data. -Ralph
Ralph, I notice you have a web site. Maybe you could put your results up there (so you don’t have dozens of us requesting copies in the mail). Thanks for the informative posts. Jim Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com /v/ /v/
– Opinions expressed are my own, and not those of my employer.
Response:
If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? Must be naught tests. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me.
Great .sig file Anglerboy !. You gotta love it… — TimW Halfordian Golfer
Response:
It is extremely easy to see why you, based on your cumulative "contibutions" to date, would be intimidated by posts that demonstrate an active thought process.
Let me know when you come up with one. As for the streamside choice, I applaud your choosing knot-goop.
I would only choose a tube of knot-goop over your company… better conversation. It is consistent with the fact that you don’t actually fish.
Yeesh… ya really got me with that one, Tony. Same to you, only double! Ha! I’ve been to your masturbatory web site… are you the fat, ugly cosksucker holding the dead fish or is that your Orvis-endorsed guide. Spinolio
Response:
If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? TimW Halfordian Golfer
As you can tell from the way these threads are unspooling, the answer to that question is still tied up in debate. If I understand these tests correctly, we should all start using distilled water and George’s goop — they’ll make our knots so strong we’ll be uprooting trees every time we try to yank a fly free from a limb. John
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly (much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid. It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio It is extremely easy to see why you, based on your cumulative "contibutions" to date, would be intimidated by posts that demonstrate an active thought process.
.. hmmm sounds interesting Mr Gades. Based on your CV (checked out that web site you advertise) this is something you know a thing or two about. Sometime maybe you’ll take a break from being crabby and give us a demo! 8^) Ralph H (just a simple dip shit) " … the sabbath rang slowly in the pebbles of the holy streams!" Dylan Thomas, "Fern Hill" " One man free to love his minute in the realms of flesh and sun breaks down more pain than ages of humane law or lawyers can." Leonard Cohen, " Crying, Come Back, Hero"
Response:
Hi Jon- We found that as monofilament soaks up water it becomes increasingly vulnerable to cutting itself with tight radius knots (mono loop and wind knots). Clinching type knots (Uni-knot) actually often became a bit stronger, possibly because the swelling of the monofilament created a tighter grip. When developing testing parameters we put knotted lines in water and tested knots at 5 minute intervals. After about 30 minutes the changes were no longer noticable. For the hell of it we let the lines soak for an additional 15 minutes simply to be sure they were soaked to capacity. The IGFA also soaks lines before subjecting them to class rating tests. -Ralph Ralph, I am curious why you use 45 min. soaking. I can see wetting having one or more of several effects. 1) just surface coating which may affect surface tension or lubricity of the knots in some way and possibly affecting cinching or stress production in the knot and 2) interaction with the plastic polymer which would imply some sort of penetration into the plastic and a change of its physical characteristics. #1 would happen immediately upon wetting and #2 may be time-dependent based on the permeability of the plastic. A grey-zone might occur if #1 was the main effect but the water required time to penetrate the knot. It would be easy to test by looking at change in breaking strength over time of a wet strand in the absence of a knot. Any comments? Just curious. Jon
Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com /v/ /v/
Response:
If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? Must be naught tests. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid. It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio Right on! It’s about time somebody called-out this Gades character. I’ve yet to read a post where he didn’t come off as being pompous and rude.
If Tony and Spinolio got married they’d have offspring named Toniolio. Whydoncha relax a notch swatson ? For the record, I have a tube of George’s knot-goop *and* I agree with Tony…noone I know would fool with it astream…a little spit-tle do ya…it snot that big of thing… No good will become the fellow that needs lubricant to tie a knot. — TimW Halfordian Golfer
Response:
(much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid. It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio
Right on! It’s about time somebody called-out this Gades character. I’ve yet to read a post where he didn’t come off as being pompous and rude.
Response:
Hi Rick- The Orvis Knot and the Mono loop knot tested virtually the same. E mail me your postal address and I’ll send you more data. -Ralph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great post!! I was wondering, you mention that the Orvis knot was "far short of the Uni-knot" but you didn’t give a percentage. I tend to like the Orvis knot because of it’s ease in tying and the thought that it was so strong. Also, I think a comparision of Wet to Dry Knot strenths would be very interesting. Do you have that kind of data? I have never considered the Duncan Loop to be a very strong knot but your data does not support this idea. Once agin, thanks for the information and keep up the good work. Rick Richard Padgett
Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com /v/ /v/
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Organization: Gehrke’s Gink/Xink Fly Fishing Products Company DEAR RALPH: I disagree with the majority of your tests. Mr. G. Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he lied. , While I found the info interesting it has to be noted that no experiment is valid beyond the parameters of it’s design. For example who fishes in distilled water? Who soaks their leader in water for 45 minutes and why was that time period chosen (was it chosen arbitrarily?) Leaders are in the water usually for no more than a few minutes and then dried – at least partially – by casting. Do we know the extent of saturation of a typical leader on an average day? What was the precise breaking strain of the mono before the knot was tied? What was the breaking strain of the knot? what was the degree of confidence in the test? None the less the relative breaking strains of the knots are informative. AND! George seems to have thrown down a gauntlet regarding the effectiveness of his knot goop. I for one would be fascinated by an independent before and after sort of comparison. Ralph H (just a simple dipshit 8^) ) "… the sabbath rang slowly in the pebbles of the holy streams!" Dylan Thomas, "Fern Hill"
RALPH, you are not a dipshit. Christ. Loosen up. What you should do is reread every sentence in my answer carefully without putting words in my mouth. Re-review the part about the IGFA and think a bit. What I say is based on sound facts. If you want to call someone a liar, than you should but don’t count me in on your train-of-logic because it is also incorrect. As far as challenges are concerned regarding KNOT-PERFECT, I will say this Ralph. I will challenge anyone in the world not to agree that Knot-Perfect, (WATCH MY WORDS!) will make any brand of tippet/leader material (KNOT FOR KNOT) a more consistant breaking knot for THAT MATERIAL. Understand? For instance, a batch or spool of 2# test may break variously with ONE KNOT but once you use KNOT-PERFECT on that same knot each time its tied, that knot will break more consistantly AT THE SAME POUNDAGE than with any other product in the world. What this means Ralph is this. You can train yourself with two pound test and with the same brand of mono used every time to sense or KNOW how hard to fight and pull on a fish before that brand and knot will break. This comes with experience. It is not learned over-night. This is why I always fish with Maxima because I have a lifetime of fishing experience with this ONE BRAND. Every knot I tie in it is known. A blood knot will break at a different percentage than another. Etc. However, my friend; there are things that KNOT-PERFECT does inside a knot and too the monofiliment that no other product in the world can do. Now, this statement is about as bold as you can do, but lets face it. I know what the hell I’m doing. I haven’t spend years in my chemistry lab just swatting flies on the walls. The point is, KNOT-PERFECT takes fishermen in all catagories that are knot-perfect and makes them (you guessed it) PERFECT! The knots aren’t burnt. The knots are no longer chaffed or cracked under pressure, and every knot squeezes down (for THAT PARTICULAR KNOT) around where the main tippet stem enters the knot EXACTLY THE SAME AND UNDER THE SAME PRESSURE TIME AND TIME AGAIN. This means what? It means consistant breaking or parting percentages every time. So, if you are tying a blood-knot all the time, for each poundage at its weakest point . . . you have dialed in a confidence level never before dreamed or possible before. A 2.1 # test tippet in a blood-knot will break (for example) at exactly 1.9 LBS. time and time again, without exception. This has never been possible before in the entire history of fishing. Any kind of fishing, Ralph. A breaking scale does not a scientist make. I still do not know what kind of scales are used or the testing parimeters. In fact, none of us do. The variables are massive from what we read compared to our lab tests. I still will not compound an arguement or difference of opinion but what I am saying is that the test results posted are ‘very general.’ They are general because you do not know the material diameters, the length of the male verses the female side or; the cope vs the drag side or put another way, the length of the bottom tippet verses the top? Were identical diameters used or was a two pound test tippet attached to a four pound test piece? I also know that there are much more consistant breaking and more reliable tippet materials than those bragged about. And I mean, by a long shot, Ralph. And no. I don’t know everything. I’m no smart-ass, but I’m not stupid either. I’ve done a lot of research work in this industry Ralph and I’m not here belittle anyone. But I am here to freely disagree when I know I’m right. I’ll leave it at that and you all can have this thread. I’m sorry I butted in where I wasn’t wanted. Have a nice season. Mr. G. POST SCRIPT: I was just asked what I use all the time and of course it is Maxima. I cannot stand tippet material that snake and curl up like D.Reek/etc. does once you catch a fish and stretch it. No Sir. Maxima doesn’t do this and I do not like hard, slick surfaced tippet material for much the same reasons. When I die and they bury me, they can put a spool of Maxima in my shirt pocket so I won’t run out of it in heaven. 
Everyone.
Response:
If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? — TimW Halfordian Golfer
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Organization: Gehrke’s Gink/Xink Fly Fishing Products Company DEAR RALPH: I disagree with the majority of your tests. Mr. G. Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he lied. ,
While I found the info interesting it has to be noted that no experiment is valid beyond the parameters of it’s design. For example who fishes in distilled water? Who soaks their leader in water for 45 minutes and why was that time period chosen (was it chosen arbitrarily?) Leaders are in the water usually for no more than a few minutes and then dried – at least partially – by casting. Do we know the extent of saturation of a typical leader on an average day? What was the precise breaking strain of the mono before the knot was tied? What was the breaking strain of the knot? what was the degree of confidence in the test? None the less the relative breaking strains of the knots are informative. AND! George seems to have thrown down a gauntlet regarding the effectiveness of his knot goop. I for one would be fascinated by an independent before and after sort of comparison. Ralph H (just a simple dipshit 8^) ) "… the sabbath rang slowly in the pebbles of the holy streams!" Dylan Thomas, "Fern Hill"
Response:
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly (much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid. It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio It is extremely easy to see why you, based on your cumulative "contibutions" to date, would be intimidated by posts that demonstrate an active thought process. As for the streamside choice, I applaud your choosing knot-goop. It is consistent with the fact that you don’t actually fish. _pompously_ yours, -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA. USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.
Response:
example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.
Great post!! I was wondering, you mention that the Orvis knot was "far short of the Uni-knot" but you didn’t give a percentage. I tend to like the Orvis knot because of it’s ease in tying and the thought that it was so strong. Also, I think a comparision of Wet to Dry Knot strenths would be very interesting. Do you have that kind of data? I have never considered the Duncan Loop to be a very strong knot but your data does not support this idea. Once agin, thanks for the information and keep up the good work. Rick Richard Padgett
Response:
(much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid. It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside.
Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio
Response:
..snip…. Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp.
…snip… Ralph, I am curious why you use 45 min. soaking. I can see wetting having one or more of several effects. 1) just surface coating which may affect surface tension or lubricity of the knots in some way and possibly affecting cinching or stress production in the knot and 2) interaction with the plastic polymer which would imply some sort of penetration into the plastic and a change of its physical characteristics. #1 would happen immediately upon wetting and #2 may be time-dependent based on the permeability of the plastic. A grey-zone might occur if #1 was the main effect but the water required time to penetrate the knot. It would be easy to test by looking at change in breaking strength over time of a wet strand in the absence of a knot. Any comments? Just curious. Jon
Response:
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Organization: Gehrke’s Gink/Xink Fly Fishing Products Company DEAR RALPH: I disagree with the majority of your tests. Mr. G.
Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he lied. Quote another test, its methods and results, and to make it useful to us, skip using that knot-goop because nobody is going to bother using such a product in the real world. A trilene knot (which I primarily use) has been shown repeatedly to have a breaking strength of 100%. The 6x blood knot ranks in around 70%. The perfection loop ranks in around 90-100%. These results I’ve seen repeatedly. These are the same results found by Mr. Cutter. I see no reason to disagree. Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid. It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. cheers, -tony — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA. USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Larry- Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet. Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material we have tested. Loop Knots: Bimini-100 percent, Uni knot- 96 percent, Monofilament loop- 87 percent, Perfection- 85 percent, 2X surgeons- 68 percent, 4X surgeons- 68 percent, 6X surgeons-81 percent, 7X surgeons-73 percent. FYI: the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent. the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent. the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent. the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent.
But of course. This is the one I tie best. Hey, if you have good eyes, they also make a half-way decent strike indicator! :-) -Ralph
Cheers, and tight lines. -Mark PS: ’Love your book, Ralph. It should be required reading for Sierra trout anglers. Keep up the good work.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he While I found the info interesting it has to be noted that no experiment is valid beyond the parameters of it’s design. For example who fishes in distilled water? Who soaks their leader in water for 45 minutes and why was that time period chosen (was it chosen arbitrarily?) Leaders are in the water usually for no more than a few minutes and then dried,at least partially by casting. Do we know the extent of saturation of a typical leader on an average day? What was the precise breaking strain of the mono before the knot was tied? What was the breaking strain of the knot? what was the degree of confidence in the test?
Hey dip…., You bring up some very valid points. I don’t think the soaking time is important as long as the interval is consistant – the main thing is the line was wet (something I didn’t do when I performed a series of breaking tests). None the less the relative breaking strains of the knots are informative.
Yep, on a relative basis it is good information to know. Regardless of what knot you use, I find one of the most important things is to make sure the knot is snugged up tight to prevent it from cutting into its’ self and breaking. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley 2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR
Response:
Hi Larry- Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet. Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material we have tested. Loop Knots: Bimini-100 percent, Uni knot- 96 percent, Monofilament loop- 87 percent, Perfection- 85 percent, 2X surgeons- 68 percent, 4X surgeons- 68 percent, 6X surgeons-81 percent, 7X surgeons-73 percent. FYI: the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent. the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent. the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent. the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent. -Ralph
Response:
