Question:

Yo. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

But why not deal with personal conflicts by e-mail so that Roffians who hate this stuff are not forced to read (and tempted to join in).

I’ve dipped in & out of this group a few times over the past 3 years or so, and have made and heard made the same comments as yours several times. Each time (as it will likely do now) the response will confirm that the majority of the people who actually POST in this group ENJOY it being a place where playground games are played. I think it’s just a combination of the topic not having as much objective discussion potential (there’s an argument right there), and that the outspoken people are, uh, outspoken. There’s another group called alt.flyfishing that I think was started to get away from this, but it is pretty pathetic when you have to giev up an entire newsgroup because the majority of posters (remember they do post!) want to talk about something else. And there’s me pontificating off-topic too. — Jeff Cook http://www.cookstudios.com Video, Audio, Print & the Web Washington DC & London

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Being one of those who read a number of discussions on ROFF in the past few months – without participating myself – I have a few remarks that might shine some light on this issue. The majority of ROFF post is limited to relatively few people, let’s say some fifty "regulats". Plus an additional number of posters who take part only occasionally. Most Roffians are American, some are Canadian or British, only quite a few are European or from other parts of the world. To Europeans like myself  - who master the English language well enough to comprehend the interesting discussions on FF – the discussions on other subjects than FF are irrelevant, often annoying and sometimes impossible to understand because they require a thorough and detailed insight in the American way of life, which most of us have not.Though there are contributors who have interesting and valuable information both for newbies and skilled fly fishermen it’s too bad that ROFF is so often abused with crap.(I must admit, however, that it can be amazing to observe how easily Americans cross swords and how they fight their verbal wars!) But why not deal with personal conflicts by e-mail so that Roffians who hate this stuff are not forced to read (and tempted to join in). Well, my overall impression of ROFF is definitively a positive one – though I am well aware of the fact that many fly fishermen prefer to keep out of the heat, pick up the information they can use and leave it to that. If certain sunscribers would participate in a more diciplined manner and focus on what should bring us together – FF being our core business for that matter – ROFF may offer an even more suitable forum in the exchange of FF know how, discussion on FF issues and establishing contacts between individual Roffians. I’m stepping in – still eager to learn – addicted to FF (among other things) as long as I’m going strong!

Thank you Henk.  It’s always good to read a well reasoned message in this asylum.  I cannot speak for the group (well, o.k., I often DO, but they don’t like it), but I really do appreciate your insights……despite disagreeing with some of the particulars.      :) It is an accident of history that the majority of participants here are American and that the common language used is English.  There isn’t much that anyone can do about this.  However, as the vast majority of Americans are monolingual, it seems to me that you have us at something of a disadvantage in that you can harangue us, without comprehension on our part (let alone fear of retribution), in whatever your native language may be.  Not only will this allow you to have your say, and without contributing to what many see as unproductive flame wars but, if experience is any teacher, many of us will be stunned into a bemused silence. I grew up in a European household, albeit a transplanted one.  I have also studied a bit of history.  It is thus with complete confidence that I say I don’t believe contentiousness to be a peculiarly American trait.  If I read the books aright, various European, Africans, South Americans, Asians, and our friends in the antipodes have all crossed swords from time to time, both intramurally and internationally.  As appealing as the metaphor is though, it should be noted that what goes on here is, in fact, a bit less dramatic, not to mention downright traumatic, than outright warfare.  In truth, it is no different than what can be observed to this day in the marketplaces and other public fora of Istanbul, Seattle, Paris, Sao Paolo, Canberra, Beijing, and a thousand other places.  Moreover, as divisive as it all must seem, it is VERY important to remember that what has gone on here for years, and what continues to go on now, has had quite the opposite effect of what one might imagine. Even as I write these words plans are underway for several gatherings to take place in the near future.  These events will be attended by dozen of people who have already met and enjoyed one another’s company as a direct result of participation in this forum, and dozens more who have not yet had the pleasure but will undoubtedly, if the past is any guide, come away with pleasant memories and a strong desire to do it again.  To be sure, most of these claves have occurred on American soil and been attended mostly be Americans.  But this is to be expected given the demographics.  On the other hand, the first "official" European ROFFian clave is shortly to take place.  I’m sure we ALL hope that this sets a precedent which will bear fruit in the years to come.  Even more, I am also sure that virtually all of the regular participants here harbor some hope of attending such an event and meeting their European and other international friends; for, make no mistake about it, true friendships have been built here and continue to be, whatever the dots on the screen may suggest to the contrary. It is my sincere hope that I will be among the lucky ones to greet guests from another country at one of our gatherings here some day, AND be greeted in turn at one of theirs. Wolfgang

Response:

…….And there’s me pontificating off-topic too.

Well, if ya GOTTA be ironic, ya might as well do it self-consciously!   Wolfgang thanks for stopping in!

Response:

Being one of those who read a number of discussions on ROFF in the past few months – without participating myself – I have a few remarks that might shine some light on this issue. ROFF post is limited to a small number of people, let’s say some fifty "regulars". Plus an additional number of posters who take part only occasionally. Most of them are American, some are British, only quite a few are European or from other parts of the world. To Europeans like myself – who master the English language well enough to comprehend the interesting discussions on fly-fishing topics – the discussions on other subjects than FFare not only very irrelevant and annoying but more often than not impossible to understand because they require a thorough and detailed insight in the American way of life, which we have not. Though there are a number of contributors who have interesting and valuable information both for newbies and skilled fly-fishermen it’s a pity that this forum is so often abused. (I must admit, however, that, from a more or less scientific point of view, it is interesting to observe how easily Americans cross swords and how they fight their verbal wars!) But why not deal with personal conflicts by e-mail so that Roffians who are not interested are not forced to read (and tempted to join in)! Well, my overall impression is definitely a positive one. If certain subscribers would participate in a more disciplined manner and focus on what should bring us together – flyfishing being our core business for that matter – ROFF may offer an even more suitable forum in the exchange of FFknow-how, the discussion on FF issues and the establishing of contacts between individual Roffians. I’m stepping in – still eager to learn – addicted to flyfishing (among other things) as long as I’m going strong! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any estimates. I personally know of only 3 South Africans. Just wondering’s’all. More or less impossible to tell.  The numbers also fluctuate considerably. I once heard an estimate that for every poster there may be up to ten lurkers. I have no idea if this is true. On some bulletin boards they have software to check how many people have visited etc, and on at least two I visit, the above estimate proved to be too low. Sometimes five or six people had posted, and over a hundred had read the messages without responding. It would probably be extremely difficult to do anything like this on ROFF, as newsgroups are propagated by various servers all over the globe. Finding out how many people visit the group on these servers, and collating such information, would be more or less impossible I fear. And it would subject to at least some inaccurate reporting, as well. I don’t know how many folks have multiple server access, but at least some do (I have several), and so, although I only use the one, my client checks them all and therefore, it would "ring up" several "lurkers" as having checked ROFF when, in fact, it was a regular poster’s client simply doing its job. TC, R TL MC

Response:

Any estimates. I personally know of only 3 South Africans. Just wondering’s’all. Ari Ari & Gaelle Bert                                   +27 (0) 83 232 9903 & +27 (0) 83 236 5308 +27 (0) 11 443 9984 / +27 (0) 11 882 8537 (fax)                 www.troutfishing.co.za www.africanfishing.com Physical Address: 72 Swemmer Rd, Sunningdale, 2192 Postal Address: P.O.Box 79067, Senderwood, 2145, South Africa

Response:

Any estimates. I personally know of only 3 South Africans. Just wondering’s’all.

There are 5.  Most of us are really Wolfgang’s sock puppets.

Response:

There are 5.  Most of us are really Wolfgang’s sock puppets.

And its damned uncomfortable, too. Kevin Or am I?

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Any estimates. I personally know of only 3 South Africans. Just wondering’s’all. There are 5.  Most of us are really Wolfgang’s sock puppets.

Now it’s all clear! How can he keep all those balls in the air? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Any estimates. I personally know of only 3 South Africans. Just wondering’s’all.

More or less impossible to tell.  The numbers also fluctuate considerably. I once heard an estimate that for every poster there may be up to ten lurkers. I have no idea if this is true. On some bulletin boards they have software to check how many people have visited etc, and on at least two I visit, the above estimate proved to be too low. Sometimes five or six people had posted, and over a hundred had read the messages without responding. It would probably be extremely difficult to do anything like this on ROFF, as newsgroups are propagated by various servers all over the globe. Finding out how many people visit the group on these servers, and collating such information, would be more or less impossible I fear. There are obviously a large number of lurkers and visitors though. I have received large amounts of e-mail from people who never post here, asking for advice etc, and mentioning something they saw on ROFF. Many do not want to post to a newsgroup, for whatever reason, but they seem happy enough to read them. TL MC

Response:

There are 5.  Most of us are really Wolfgang’s sock puppets.

And its damned uncomfortable, too.<   Not to mention the smell.   Harry he only uses "dirty sock" puppets.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any estimates. I personally know of only 3 South Africans. Just wondering’s’all. More or less impossible to tell.  The numbers also fluctuate considerably. I once heard an estimate that for every poster there may be up to ten lurkers. I have no idea if this is true. On some bulletin boards they have software to check how many people have visited etc, and on at least two I visit, the above estimate proved to be too low. Sometimes five or six people had posted, and over a hundred had read the messages without responding. It would probably be extremely difficult to do anything like this on ROFF, as newsgroups are propagated by various servers all over the globe. Finding out how many people visit the group on these servers, and collating such information, would be more or less impossible I fear.

And it would subject to at least some inaccurate reporting, as well. I don’t know how many folks have multiple server access, but at least some do (I have several), and so, although I only use the one, my client checks them all and therefore, it would "ring up" several "lurkers" as having checked ROFF when, in fact, it was a regular poster’s client simply doing its job. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -TL MC

Response:

Being one of those who read a number of discussions on ROFF in the past few months – without participating myself – I have a few remarks that might shine some light on this issue. The majority of ROFF post is limited to relatively few people, let’s say some fifty "regulats". Plus an additional number of posters who take part only occasionally. Most Roffians are American, some are Canadian or British, only quite a few are European or from other parts of the world. To Europeans like myself  - who master the English language well enough to comprehend the interesting discussions on FF – the discussions on other subjects than FF are irrelevant, often annoying and sometimes impossible to understand because they require a thorough and detailed insight in the American way of life, which most of us have not.Though there are contributors who have interesting and valuable information both for newbies and skilled fly fishermen it’s too bad that ROFF is so often abused with crap.(I must admit, however, that it can be amazing to observe how easily Americans cross swords and how they fight their verbal wars!) But why not deal with personal conflicts by e-mail so that Roffians who hate this stuff are not forced to read (and tempted to join in). Well, my overall impression of ROFF is definitively a positive one – though I am well aware of the fact that many fly fishermen prefer to keep out of the heat, pick up the information they can use and leave it to that. If certain sunscribers would participate in a more diciplined manner and focus on what should bring us together – FF being our core business for that matter – ROFF may offer an even more suitable forum in the exchange of FF know how, discussion on FF issues and establishing contacts between individual Roffians. I’m stepping in – still eager to learn – addicted to FF (among other things) as long as I’m going strong!

Response:

Question:

Hello Anglers, Will be in Yosemite for a few days and was wondering about fishing the lakes off Hwy 120 going east thru Tioga pass. Is fishing not allowed? Is it OK with barbless/artificial only? Is it catch & release? Do they plant any of these lakes with stupid DFG trout? What species of fish are in these lakes? Etc., etc. Appreciate any and all info. CP Note: I realize the Pass is closed due to rockslide! I also realize I could find this info somewhere if I really looked. But I’m looking for some first-hand knowledge/experience info.

Response:

Tuolumne Meadows has a lake near it, and the fishing can be good with worms and the white wood worms.  Most of the lakes up near Tioga pass are sterile. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Anglers, Will be in Yosemite for a few days and was wondering about fishing the lakes off Hwy 120 going east thru Tioga pass. Is fishing not allowed? Is it OK with barbless/artificial only? Is it catch & release? Do they plant any of these lakes with stupid DFG trout? What species of fish are in these lakes? Etc., etc. Appreciate any and all info. CP Note: I realize the Pass is closed due to rockslide! I also realize I could find this info somewhere if I really looked. But I’m looking for some first-hand knowledge/experience info.

Response:

Just got back from a ten day trip with my 9 year old son. Stopped off at saddlebag lake, 2 miles in from the Yosemite gate at Tioga pass. We took he boat in ,its a long and skinny lake, and planned to camp for the night. My son caught his first trout, a 14 inch rainbow, using a lure. At night, we used a fly and bubble on 4 pound test. Caught more fish than we could handle. When the boat came back the next morning to take us out, we decided to spend another night .Had another good day, nobody else camped there. Saw a few other hikers in the day but had the lake to ourselves all night. Saw no bears and had a wonderful time. Great place. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Anglers, Will be in Yosemite for a few days and was wondering about fishing the lakes off Hwy 120 going east thru Tioga pass. Is fishing not allowed? Is it OK with barbless/artificial only? Is it catch & release? Do they plant any of these lakes with stupid DFG trout? What species of fish are in these lakes? Etc., etc. Appreciate any and all info. CP Note: I realize the Pass is closed due to rockslide! I also realize I could find this info somewhere if I really looked. But I’m looking for some first-hand knowledge/experience info.

Response:

Question:

Some natives of ROFF are fairly wild. Some natives elsewhere, may object to being called "wild", but might accept "uncivilised", coupled perchance, with "indigenous"?  Some wild things are not necessarily native, or indeed indigenous, and are seldom civilised. Fishery biologists are not always native, and seldom uncivilised, although they may be wild. My "experience" of Florida, admittedly pure hearsay, is limited to hearing or reading about kidnappings and murders of unsuspecting, ( apparently mostly German), tourists, on or in the daily news. No information with regard to the respective professions of these people was usually tendered, although it may well be that one or the other group consisted either partly, perhaps even mainly, or indeed possibly even exclusively, of wild uncivilised native fishery biologists, with large ears and short hair, some of whom were driving too slowly, in the lane reserved for overtaking. Whether or not this was the reason for the kidnapping, and / or murder, is not clear. Somehow seems a sensible supposition nevertheless. Such instances appear to be rare in North Carolina, whether this is due to the absence of overtaking lanes, the lack of tourism, international news coverage, or the veritable plethora of legal eagles who it seems are still practising in that state, presumably thus rendering such activities less profitable, is a matter for considerable conjecture. It would certainly appear that some fishery biologists, whether native or not, although presumably  indigenous to somewhere or other, possibly even to Florida, may in fact be more civilised than others, notwithstanding the short hair and long ears, or even the florid complexion, and the tendency to slow driving in the wrong lane, all of which may, or may not,  be typical of fishery biologists, "Floridians", or tourists in general. This is demonstrated quite clearly by the peculiar propensity of this particular group,( although admittedly, as of yet, a statistically invalid sample ), for publishing apologies on ROFF. Complex terminology,  invariably indicative of considerable, in some circumstances, even colossal commitment, and indefatigable endeavour, perhaps finely tempered with a modicum of civilisation, on the part of those professions constrained to its use, in order to effect understandable and readily definable communication among themselves, may often cause confusion among large groups of the population, not currently conversant or capable, concerning such concepts. Interchangeable  use of specific professional terminology by the public at large should generally be avoided. Hope this clears everything up. Oleum et operam perdidi, hinc illae lacrumae.  Quot homines, tot sententiae, quis leget haec? TL MC — "If you have tried everything you know, and nothing works, then perhaps it is time to accept that you don

Question:

Hi Alexander, in atlantic Canada there are opportunities for flyfishing for trout and salmon in all provinces. Nova Scotia is likely the cheapest as an out-of-provincer does not require a guide by law. Tourism departments will give you a free map to fishing in the province. In your timeframe, might I suggest salmon fishing on the Margaree river in Cape Breton. It has been Nova Scotia’s most productive river in recent years and has a good run of fall fish extending into October. The Miramichi in New Brunswick is also a great fishing locale, but you are looking at the cost of a guide as well. tight lines, Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My wife and I are planning to do a motorhome trip to East Canada this summer/ autumn (august, september). Where are good fly fishing places without going to an expensive lodge or fly-in camp? Up to now, we have no special location in mind. We think about considering Ontario, Quebec, New Foundland, Nova Scotia or New Brunswik. Perhaps anyone can give us a hint. Usually I am fly-fishing in Germany and Sweden/ Norway. Regards Alexander

Response:

My wife and I are planning to do a motorhome trip to East Canada this summer/ autumn (august, september). Where are good fly fishing places without going to an expensive lodge or fly-in camp? Up to now, we have no special location in mind. We think about considering Ontario, Quebec, New Foundland, Nova Scotia or New Brunswik. Perhaps anyone can give us a hint. Usually I am fly-fishing in Germany and Sweden/ Norway. Regards Alexander

Response:

Question:

Will be at camp Moosehead Lake, Maine second week September.  Want to do some casting/spinning fishing for trout, salmon,  teage what should I take, in way of lures, what weight line, etc.  Any suggestions where to fish on Mt Kineo side lake?    

Response:

writes: Will be at camp Moosehead Lake, Maine second week September.  Want to do some casting/spinning fishing for trout, salmon,  teage what should I take, in way of lures, what weight line, etc.  Any suggestions where to fish on Mt Kineo side lake?    

Stop off at the Maine Guide Fly Shop in Greenville before heading to Rockwood. Danny will set you up with what you need for spin fishing or lake trolling. Bill — Bill Fling                     Tel. (315) 298-3044 SALMON RIVER ANGLERS LODGE     FAX  (315) 298-2619 P.O. Box 353                   Rt. 13, Rome Road Pulaski, NY 13142-0353   ‘SALMON RIVER/LAKE ONTARIO SPORTFISHING REPORTS’             ‘http://www.salmon-river.com’

Response:

Has anyone fished Moosehead Lake (Maine) for Bass?  I am thinking about going up there in August.  Thanks

Response:

Wow, this takes me back…haven’t fished Moosehead since the early 70s…didn’t know bass were there! Try spinners fished deep near the islands and points. ACP

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Question:

Hi can anyone help me with some  locations to flyfish in the Tahoe area.  I know there is alot of water and theres got to be a  few hot fly fishing spots. What flies? Fly shops? any thing else that might be helpful? float tubes on the lake? Thanks Great White Thanks for all thoughs who replied to my northerns and tigers questions landed me my first tiger 36"  17 pounds. "Got to quite wishin need to go fishin" Jimmy buffett

Response:

Hi-    Unless you know the area very well, Lake Tahoe is a poor flyfishing destination. South of the Lake is the East Carson River and flowing out of the lake on the North end is the Truckee River. These are the two premier rivers in the area. Currently the Carson is fishing well and the Truckee is blown out.    -Ralph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi can anyone help me with some  locations to flyfish in the Tahoe area.  I know there is alot of water and theres got to be a  few hot fly fishing spots. What flies? Fly shops? any thing else that might be helpful? float tubes on the lake? Thanks Great White Thanks for all thoughs who replied to my northerns and tigers questions landed me my first tiger 36"  17 pounds. "Got to quite wishin need to go fishin" Jimmy buffett

Ralph Cutter, California School of Flyfishing. http://www.flyline.com

Response:

Ralph is right about the Tahoe area.  The only change is that the Truckee downstream from Tahoe should be improving shortly.  The flows were just decreased today and hopefully will be stable for a while. Also try the Little Truckee, along with the handfull of small creeks in the North Tahoe area.  Good luck. Dick

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Question:

 10.  Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish?

Response:

 10.  Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish?

9. Your fly is stuck on the fern 20 feet behind you.      - Ken — Ken Janik Oregon State University Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering

Response:

9. Your line is dry. — Dennis C. Aron Independent Representative #13921 Champion Fishing Co., Ltd e-mail for income opportunity – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  10.  Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish?

Response:

10.  Your hook is on backwards.

Two words.. "Fez Hat" email hacked to foil spammers

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 10.  Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish? 9. Your fly is stuck on the fern 20 feet behind you.     – Ken

8. You have been fishing for ten minutes without realizing you lost your fly. David

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  10.  Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish? 9. Your fly is stuck on the fern 20 feet behind you.     – Ken 8. You have been fishing for ten minutes without realizing you lost your fly. David

7) Your rod is so light you cast 16 times before you realized you left the rod on the river bank.

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 10.  Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish?

1. You are fishing with me after telling me stories for years about how you never get skunked.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 9. Your line is dry. — Dennis C. Aron Independent Representative #13921 Champion Fishing Co., Ltd e-mail for income opportunity  10.  Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish? youre sitting at home surfing the net

Response:

10.  Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish?

I have been casting the last hour without a fly? Why don’t we stop false casting? Someone drained your swimming pool? Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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  9.  You’re too busy deleting all of the cheesy filler this list generates, to ever make it out the door : Anglerboy : Any ideas to finish? — gp

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    9.  You’re too busy deleting all of the cheesy filler this list   generates, to ever make it out the door 8.  Some carnsarned kid caught ‘em all. 7.  With a cane pole she cut, using worms. Anglerboy

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Response:

….your fly fishing, should of used live bait!! marco

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8. You have been fishing for ten minutes without realizing you lost your fly. David

        Actually, you didn’t lose your fly– you just lost the bend and point of the hook.  The fly still looks beautiful! — Tight Threads,         Charley Renn         Corvallis, OR

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10.  Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish?

9. You just pissed in the stream and the fish know! 8. Your dog just pissed in the stream. 7. You’re wading in the same same smelly sneakers as two seasons ago. 6. You snapped the nymph off your tippet six  casts ago. 5. You’re tying up your flies with the same fingers you use to take a pinch of chewing tobacco 4. Your dry fly is not getting "down to where the fish are." 3. Your nymph is not skating across the film like it ought to. 2. Got drunk and missed the hatch. And the number one reason you’re not catching fish. . . The wife wants you to finish putting up the shelves in the pantry.

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You’ve been breathing too much head cement.

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10.  Your hook is on backwards. Two words.. "Fez Hat" email hacked to foil spammers

You’re spending all your fishing time on ROFF

Response:

Question:

FLyfishing rests on casting the weight of the line. That cast has to have an aesthetic quality; it should pleasing to the eye and have a pleasing feel to the caster; that means that sinking lines are in AND so might lead (on the fly YES and maybe on the leader) and even indicators if they do not detract significantly from the aesthetic quality of the cast! Then you’d have to cut me some slack when I fish the runoff with 10 splitshot. The art is not the cast then. The art here is the magnificence of a rocky mountain runoff… TimW

I’ll cut you slack any time you ask. Read what I said; That cast has to have an aesthetic quality; it should be pleasing to the eye and have a pleasing feel to the caster;

if you get that when you use 10 split shot and it looks that why to the critical eye of another flyfisher then you fly cating and you’re a better caster than I  (or have a harder head)

Response:

<snip : Time : for another glass of a great Chilean red wine. Now there is a relatively recent TRADITION that I can heartily endorse! With or without a barbecued leg of lamb and a Chilean river in the background….   !Vive el comercio libre con Chile! Burnaby, BC

Response:

IMO, fly fishing is fishing an imitation of a natural food form, unweighted, solely using the weight of the fly line to cast. No bobbers, no split shot, etc. Everything else is "fishing with a fly". Sadly, this means that my beloved Atlantic salmon fishing (shudder, shudder), with centuries of tradition behind it, is fishing with a fly. At least no weight is allowed, either in the fly or on the leader. Does this matter? YES! Is it just semantics? No. How can one justify a "fly fishing only" section when bobbers and shotted leaders are permitted. It’s ludicrous. How about spooling a fly rod and reel with mono, nonsense. There is nothing wrong with a little yarn indicator which doesn’t float the fly, this is no different than using a dry fly (or the colored end of the line) as an indicator (which I do all the time where two or more flies are permitted). However, if the indicator is not an imitation of a natural insect and floats the nymph, you are bobber fishing, period. Do I do this? You bet! In deep, heavy water, fly fishing is usually a waste of time, fishing with a fly may, however, be very successful. However, how many times have I wished I had a noodle rod in my hands instead of a stupid fly rod, designed to cast a light line, not an ounce of lead. Chuck and duck is simply bizarre, a misuse of the equipment for some completely irrational reason. Ah, damn, George just landed me too. Time for another glass of a great Chilean red wine. Paul Marriner

Response:

[rip !] YES! Is it just semantics? No. How can one justify a "fly fishing only" section when bobbers and shotted leaders are permitted. It’s ludicrous. How about spooling a fly rod and reel with mono, nonsense. There is

and the ethics of sinking lines ? TimW

Response:

and the ethics of sinking lines ?

Although someone will surely point out the seemingly logical inconsistencies of my argument, I do not have and ethical problem with sinking or sink-tip fly lines. Most of them can be cast in a more-or-less normal fashion. My simple (some will suggest simple-minded) definition of fly fishing is "no weight or floatation _added_ to the line or leader." All else is fishing with a fly, for which a multitude of angling gear will suffice or even excel. As I tried to point out in my earlier post, such hair-splitting is only appropriate when we designate "fly fishing only" sections. I support these for a number of the excellent reasons previously posted. Paul Marriner

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You guys are merciless. A.J.Thramer

Response:

   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly             and the ethics of sinking lines ?         TimW          A floating line is nothing but a linear bobber… Think about that…        And a dry fly is simply integration.    TimW No, a dry fly is a derivative.  Only the nymph is an integral. Although, the Royal Wulff may well be a partial derivative. – d tgades/dx

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and the ethics of sinking lines ? TimW

 A floating line is nothing but a linear bobber… Think about that… Jim Jim, Nevada Jim’s Outdoor Sports, Elko, NV

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and the ethics of sinking lines ? TimW  A floating line is nothing but a linear bobber… Think about that…

And a dry fly is simply integration. TimW

Response:

FLyfishing rests on casting the weight of the line. That cast has to have an aesthetic quality; it should pleasing to the eye and have a pleasing feel to the caster; that means that sinking lines are in AND so might lead (on the fly YES and maybe on the leader) and even indicators if they do not detract significantly from the aesthetic quality of the cast!

Then you’d have to cut me some slack when I fish the runoff with 10 splitshot. The art is not the cast then. The art here is the magnificence of a rocky mountain runoff… TimW

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IMO, fly fishing is fishing an imitation of a natural food form, unweighted, solely using the weight of the fly line to cast. No bobbers, no split shot, etc. Everything else is "fishing with a fly".

<<snipped I like this; how else can we know we are fly fishing unless we can say what it is we are doing. However why <<an imitation of a natural food form; a soft plastic slamon egg or frog is an imitation of a natural food! Those are not flies and we all know that! Why not a combination of fibres, plastic, that combined provide no artifical movement other than that induced by the angler fished to induce a fish to take the fly into it’s mouth out of hunger, curiosity or aggresiveness. Also on the subject of the line; a couple years back I chatted with an angler on the Big Qualicum River on Van Isle. I was fishing a 14 ft double hander with split shot and an indicator (bobber) with a floating DT He used a 6ft section of850 SA shooting head nail knotted to green Amnesia running line. We both agreed we likely weren’t flyfishing. Yet his was " A singular system; unbroken from reel to fly" as GG might say. FLyfishing rests on casting the weight of the line. That cast has to have an aesthetic quality; it should pleasing to the eye and have a pleasing feel to the caster; that means that sinking lines are in AND so might lead (on the fly YES and maybe on the leader) and even indicators if they do not detract significantly from the aesthetic quality of the cast! A floating line and an unweighted fly may have the most grace; it may sometimes require more skill but it isn’t the only form of flyfishing! Ralph H.

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We will be floating for 3 days on the John Day River in mid-July looking for smallmouth. I’ve never fished for smallmouth before and would appreciate any suggestions about the flies, poppers, etc. that I should bring. Sizes, color, types, etc.

The John Day is a magnificent smallmouth fishery, I used to fish it often when I lived in Washington. Now I’m stuck here in Montana and miss it dearly. Certainly go with traditional topwater flies, including deer hair/rubberleg bugs in the more natural colors (tan, white, brown, olive) that have a touch of flash in the tail or a bright stripe clipped into the body. I’ve always had better success with these types than with the bright yellow/green combos. But in mid-July, fishing can be tough if the weather is very hot. However, good news in that there is plenty of deeper water for the fish to cool themselves in. So, in this case, don’t hesitate to fish beneath the surface a few inches (the fish may be more receptive to a lure stripped just under the surface than one popping the top) and certainly don’t ignore deep (bottom) fishing (vary retrieve) if no surface action arises. For this type of fishing, try a Muddler Minnow with an orange collar and SILVER body (imitates baitfish that abound here) or similar streamer pattern (Mickey Finn with a thin but prominent clipped wool or deer hair head was always a favorite of mine here). There is one advantage to mid-July on the John Day during hot weather: you may run into a sparse to very good hatch of large (#12) caddis that often bring up "fishable" numbers of bass. In this case, go for the high floating patterns such as an elk hair caddis, but tie it in a size 8 or 10 and skitter it across the surface. The larger hooks make it easier to hook the "small"-mouth. For great fun, try skittering a large caddis to which is tied one of the above streamer patterns during the hatch. And whatever you do, don’t stop retrieving and hang on! (This is a good technique if the bass are cruising the shallows in the evenings for baitfish). Good luck! Ryan Jordan

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -We will be floating for 3 days on the John Day River in mid-July looking for smallmouth. I’ve never fished for smallmouth before and would appreciate any suggestions about the flies, poppers, etc. that I should bring. Sizes, color, types, etc. I’ll bring a 6/7 wt rod with 7WF line. Should I have a very heavy leader? How long? Should I fish surface or below? Lots of questions, and perhaps someone out there as a few answers. Thanks in advance, Mike —                     Michael S. Young The RREEF Funds, 650 California Street, San Francisco, CA 94108          "Chaos is normal; normality is exceptional."

I also would like some information.  I am wondering what the average size of the fish in the John Day would be???  I have heard that there are some really nice Smallmouth in the river.  True?????                          MARTY MARTELLE                     Brittany’s, Chukars and Steelhead in                      Beautiful Boise, Idaho.                 and practicing law to support them             Homepage:Http://www.micron.net/~martelle

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We will be floating for 3 days on the John Day River in mid-July looking for smallmouth. I’ve never fished for smallmouth before and would appreciate any suggestions about the flies, poppers, etc. that I should bring. Sizes, color, types, etc. I’ll bring a 6/7 wt rod with 7WF line. Should I have a very heavy leader? How long? Should I fish surface or below? Lots of questions, and perhaps someone out there as a few answers. Thanks in advance, Mike —                      Michael S. Young The RREEF Funds, 650 California Street, San Francisco, CA 94108           "Chaos is normal; normality is exceptional."

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In article We will be floating for 3 days on the John Day River in mid-July looking for smallmouth. I’ve never fished for smallmouth before and would appreciate any suggestions about the flies, poppers, etc. that I should bring. Sizes, color, types, etc.

I have spent many, many days fishing the John Day, but all of it has been with conventional tackle.  The most effective lure I found was 3" Mr. Twisters, a grub like jig with a very supple tail, with a 1/4 oz lead jig hook.  based on this, I think that weighted wooley buggars would be your best bet, in black, white and yellow.  Some purple and olive buggars would be worth trying also.  I know that Cabela’s sells a wooley buggar like fly that has the same type of tail, and these would sure be worth trying. I’ll bring a 6/7 wt rod with 7WF line. Should I have a very heavy leader? How long? Should I fish surface or below?

The rod should be more than adequate.  As for leader, I would take both 7 1/2 ft and 9 ft leaders with a tippet breaking strength of around 8lbs.  I suspect that most of the fish you catch will be deep, but if you get a quite morning or evening, I’d sure be trying some poppers! Good Luck                Dan

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Question:

I have heard that this creek can offer great fishing and is blue ribbon, but I have also heard that it is not worth looking at. CAn anyone shed some light on the creek for me, because I am planing to go up there this Sunday. Also if it is possible, maybe someone can direct me to a good place to start from in the morning, and give me an idea of what sort of flies I should bring along. I would really appreciate anything anyone has to say about this creek. TimFLYFISH

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I have heard that this creek can offer great fishing and is blue ribbon, but I have also heard that it is not worth looking at. CAn anyone shed some light on the creek for me, because I am planing to go up there this Sunday. Also if it is possible, maybe someone can direct me to a good place to start from in the morning, and give me an idea of what sort of flies I should bring along. I would really appreciate anything anyone has to say about this creek. TimFLYFISH

The lower portion, near and in Lake Solano is a put and take fishery, heavily stocked.  Good fishing, good luck avoiding the worm drowners.  The upper portion, near Montecello dam is a blue ribbon wild trout fishery.  I have seen 30"+ browns rise for a bat!  (how to tie that one   Very difficult fishing, and often rather dangerous.  Swift current and bouldery bottom.   Your next step could be 5′ straight down off an underwater ledge.  Fish are heavily fished and very wary.  Prepare to get skunked.  Some very good FFers I know can only claim 1 fish in 10 years of fishing there, but it was a 26" brown.  Above the Montecello dam is a warm water lake, and bellow the lake solano dam gets dried to nothing in dry summers, so fish are scarce. Good luck, and whatever you do, don’t embarass yourself by trying to claim there were no fish there. Lenny Bloksberg . .

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Tim, I too wish you luck, I went up to the Monticello Dam area a couple of weeks after the March Monsters blew through here and had a hard time recognizing the area. There were HUGE landslides. Basically, there was no access to a badly overfished area. I tried clambering over new stream channels, the access bridge was GONE and so were the trails to the the base of the dam. I haven’t been back, I’ll look again after the Power Baiters are gone. John E.

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]I have heard that this creek can offer great fishing and is blue ribbon, ]but I have also heard that it is not worth looking at. CAn anyone shed ]some light on the creek for me, because I am planing to go up there this ]Sunday. Also if it is possible, maybe someone can direct me to a good ]place to start from in the morning, and give me an idea of what sort of ]flies I should bring along. I would really appreciate anything anyone has ]to say about this creek. ]TimFLYFISH Tim, I believe the better flyfishing at Putah is from Nov-March, because that’s when the flows are lower, and they restrict fishing in the upper section to artificials, single barbless hook, C&R.  This time of year, you’re battling bait dunkers and the higher flows. Effective patterns I’ve heard of (in the winter) include PT nymphs or blue wing olive nymphs, size 18-22. A good friend (and reliable source) told me that he went in February or March, and that they had had some kind of disastorous mudslide in the upper section, just above the Highway 128 bridge.  He said you couldn’t even see some of the boulders in the river, because they were covered with a mud sludge.  They had construction crews with heavy equipment out there, trying to smooth the land where the slide had occurred. I hope it’s recovered somewhat since then.  Please keep us posted on how you did and the river conditions.  Thanks, Bill Uyeki

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I have heard that this creek can offer great fishing and is blue ribbon, but I have also heard that it is not worth looking at. CAn anyone shed some light on the creek for me, because I am planing to go up there this Sunday. Also if it is possible, maybe someone can direct me to a good place to start from in the morning, and give me an idea of what sort of flies I should bring along. I would really appreciate anything anyone has to say about this creek. TimFLYFISH

I ‘ve fished Putah for almost 20 years and its really gone downhill in the last 10 or so.  Erratic water flows, streamside erosion, overfishing have taken their toll.  Seams to me that there could be the potential for a blue ribbon fishery but it clearly ain’t one now. Garrick

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From what I have heard, I am glad that I didn’t end up going. A late night stoped the morning trip. I probably won’t on going there again if what you have said is true. Thank you for the info.

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Well 6/7/95, Mammoth fishing is still slow.  Crowley is near dead. 17-20" browns and even smaller rainbows on olive buggers with flash. I say forget Mammoth for now.  Air Temps in the 50S.  Still needs to warm up and water needs to clear.

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Try fishing at Parking Lot #3; good pocket water, as well as large surface water.

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Try fishing at Parking Lot #3; good pocket water, as well as large surface water.

I have seen the name Putah Creek in more than one location. Where is this one? Thanks, Michael Paine

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I have seen the name Putah Creek in more than one location. Where is this one? Thanks, Michael Paine

It’s between the Bay Area and Sacramento.  Below Lake Berryessa.                  /                                                           John Woodling                 /                                                           Sacramento, CA                /                   "The lure of fishing is that it is the pursuit of that which is elusive, yet attainable……an endless series of occasions for hope"

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