Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Willi,  this sounds similar to the english E. danica indeed.  Does the Green Drake have a pale cream body with a couple of brown segments near the tail, alongside a slight olive colouring of the thorax / wing area and 3 long tail fibres? Michael, perhaps I can give some info that you may find interesting.  In 1962 the Western Green Drake was changed from Ephemerella grandis to Drunella grandis.  In England, Green Drakes are Ephemera danica, in the eastern US they are Ephemera guttulata and in the western US Drunella grandis. Description: BIOLOGOY OF MAYFLIES, 1935 "Abdominal segments dark purplish brown with wide pale margins, so as to appear conspicuously ringed." Revised in 1962 by Allen and Edmunds "Terga largely purplish brown with pale pleural and posterior margins, giving a distinct ringed appearance to the abdomen." A description of the Western Green Drake from SPINNERS by Nemes: ‘There is little green in the whole insect, although the base of the wings has a yellowy green cast to it, which is very prominent on the dun. The spinner appears green perhaps because of the pale yellow stripes between the dark, purply brown segments.  Body length is 3/4".  Three tails almost twice as long.  Wings: hyaline, with a span of 1 and 1/2".’ A very generic hatch chart that will give you a general idea of various hatch times: http://www.orvis.com/intro.asp?dir_id=&Group_ID=&subject=253&cktst=true HTH. —

Thanks Warren,  the two insects do sound very similar indeed:  very good fun to fish with here in the UK ~ have you ever fished a Green Drake hatch?  Are they common on most rivers or are they fairly limited in extent (UK is tiny compared to States, so I suppose that US environments vary wildly) .  I would imagine that the north east of the States is the most similar to the environment of the UK  (New England & New Hampshire might be a possible clue, but since I’ve never been there, I don’t really know ?) Regards, Mike.

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Willi,  this sounds similar to the english E. danica indeed.  Does the Green Drake have a pale cream body with a couple of brown segments near the tail, alongside a slight olive colouring of the thorax / wing area and 3 long tail fibres?

Michael, perhaps I can give some info that you may find interesting.  In 1962 the Western Green Drake was changed from Ephemerella grandis to Drunella grandis.  In England, Green Drakes are Ephemera danica, in the eastern US they are Ephemera guttulata and in the western US Drunella grandis.   Description: BIOLOGOY OF MAYFLIES, 1935 "Abdominal segments dark purplish brown with wide pale margins, so as to appear conspicuously ringed." Revised in 1962 by Allen and Edmunds "Terga largely purplish brown with pale pleural and posterior margins, giving a distinct ringed appearance to the abdomen." A description of the Western Green Drake from SPINNERS by Nemes: ‘There is little green in the whole insect, although the base of the wings has a yellowy green cast to it, which is very prominent on the dun.   The spinner appears green perhaps because of the pale yellow stripes between the dark, purply brown segments.  Body length is 3/4".  Three tails almost twice as long.  Wings: hyaline, with a span of 1 and 1/2".’ A very generic hatch chart that will give you a general idea of various hatch times: http://www.orvis.com/intro.asp?dir_id=&Group_ID=&subject=253&cktst=true HTH. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

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Our snowpack percentage increased by 16% this weekend and they are already talking about more flooding because the temps this weekend are supposed to get up into the 90’s.

If it’s not one damn thing, it’s something else. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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didn’t stick much in the valley.  The mountains are white again though. Our snowpack percentage increased by 16% this weekend and they are already talking about more flooding because the temps this weekend are supposed to get up into the 90’s.

Our snowpack is a whopping 293% and the rivers are running at normal levels (16,300 cfs) on the lower Clark Fork. Heading up to Rock Creek with the Fam on Thursday. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

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Make sure to have the appropriate size/color quigley cripple. It’s a great pattern during the Green Drake hatch on the Bitterroot, which should be starting in 2 or 3 weeks.

Will do.  I still have your fly from one of the swaps set aside as my example pattern. More snow down to about 4000 feet here. We’ve had at least a couple of inches of rain in the past 4 days or so. I hope other parched places in the west are getting this.

Same here.  Not sure how much rain we received total, but it rained most of the weekend and most of yesterday too.  We had snow at times, but it didn’t stick much in the valley.  The mountains are white again though.   Our snowpack percentage increased by 16% this weekend and they are already talking about more flooding because the temps this weekend are supposed to get up into the 90’s. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

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Make sure to have the appropriate size/color quigley cripple. It’s a great pattern during the Green Drake hatch on the Bitterroot, which should be starting in 2 or 3 weeks. More snow down to about 4000 feet here. We’ve had at least a couple of inches of rain in the past 4 days or so. I hope other parched places in the west are getting this. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have never fished an actual Green Drake "hatch" (like the glorious ones you read about in various magazines or books), but have fished Green Drakes while they were out.  In my experience, they are fairly common in that they are represented in a large geographic area, but rare in that they are a short-lived hatch and prefer certain types of water. Personally I like the Grey and Brown Drakes better because they are more common, probably because they have a longer hatch period, but they seem to be more widespread too.  That may be because they have the longer "hatch" though…..  I am hoping to fish some Green Drakes this weekend. Never fished the famous hatch on this river, but supposedly it is everything that you are talking about and more.  Unfortunately it brings out the crowds too.

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Thanks Warren,  the two insects do sound very similar indeed:  very good fun to fish with here in the UK ~ have you ever fished a Green Drake hatch?  Are they common on most rivers or are they fairly limited in extent (UK is tiny compared to States, so I suppose that US environments vary wildly) .  I would imagine that the north east of the States is the most similar to the environment of the UK  (New England & New Hampshire might be a possible clue, but since I’ve never been there, I don’t really know ?)

I have never fished an actual Green Drake "hatch" (like the glorious ones you read about in various magazines or books), but have fished Green Drakes while they were out.  In my experience, they are fairly common in that they are represented in a large geographic area, but rare in that they are a short-lived hatch and prefer certain types of water.   Personally I like the Grey and Brown Drakes better because they are more common, probably because they have a longer hatch period, but they seem to be more widespread too.  That may be because they have the longer "hatch" though…..  I am hoping to fish some Green Drakes this weekend.   Never fished the famous hatch on this river, but supposedly it is everything that you are talking about and more.  Unfortunately it brings out the crowds too. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for the info Gary,  I checked the pictures but my outlook express newsgroup reader told me that I couldn’t view the pictures because there were no longer there, or words to similar effect.  I assume that you took the photos?  Do the green drakes in the Delaware hatch in a fortnight around about the end of May? Regards, Michael. It is really for only 4 or 5 days on the Delaware I am told. Most hatch charts make it the last fortnight of May though. If you want the photos I would be glad to email them to you. Just let me know.

Thanks Gary,  yes indeed I would quite like to see the pikkies, so please email them to me.  From what you say it seems like the english Mayfly is similar to the american Green Drake. Regards, Michael.

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Willi,  I think I wasn’t making myself clear in the previous post of mine: what I meant was does the green drake flies that you saw have the features that I mentioned, i.e. pale body with brown segments near tail and a pale olive hackle & wing ~ and of course the 3 long tail fibres?

Michael, FWIW, I posted several pics a few days back on alt.binaries.pictures.fishing. Flies were green drakes from the Delaware River in NY State. You above desc is compares well to the US Eastern Green Drake. I am sure it would be not difficult to find the pattern online. Where I am now, I cannot help! Best regards, Gary

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Willi,  this sounds similar to the english E. danica indeed.  Does the Green Drake have a pale cream body with a couple of brown segments near the tail, alongside a slight olive colouring of the thorax / wing area and 3 long tail fibres? Like I said, I’ve never seen one. There are people on ROFF who have.  When danica is hatching, the big trout all congregate in the slow pool tails and hunt down the hatching nymphs and emerging duns furiously.  After the danica has gone by, the pool tails become devoid of big trout My guess is that you would find them there at sunset and into the night.

The Western Green Drake is Drunella grandis or Drunella doddsi. The duns are pretty much an olive color all over. They emerge in the middle of the day, and they darken in color after emergence. The cool thing about the Green Drakes, from a flyfisherman’s point of view, is that the duns spend a long time on the surface, and there are lots of cripples. The mating flights and the spinner falls occur very late and into the night. These are big mayflies, but not nearly as big as the Brown Drake. The Big Wood River in Idaho has a superb Green Drake hatch in June. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Willi,  this sounds similar to the english E. danica indeed.  Does the Green Drake have a pale cream body with a couple of brown segments near the tail, alongside a slight olive colouring of the thorax / wing area and 3 long tail fibres? Like I said, I’ve never seen one. There are people on ROFF who have. Willi,  I think I wasn’t making myself clear in the previous post of mine: what I meant was does the green drake flies that you saw have the features that I mentioned, i.e. pale body with brown segments near tail and a pale olive hackle & wing ~ and of course the 3 long tail fibres?

Many apologies for my making myself unclear yet again.  What I really mean is not the natural flies that you haven’t seen, but the artificials that your friend showed you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Willi,  I think I wasn’t making myself clear in the previous post of mine: what I meant was does the green drake flies that you saw have the features that I mentioned, i.e. pale body with brown segments near tail and a pale olive hackle & wing ~ and of course the 3 long tail fibres? Michael, FWIW, I posted several pics a few days back on alt.binaries.pictures.fishing. Flies were green drakes from the Delaware River in NY State. You above desc is compares well to the US Eastern Green Drake. I am sure it would be not difficult to find the pattern online. Where I am now, I cannot help!

Thanks for the info Gary,  I checked the pictures but my outlook express newsgroup reader told me that I couldn’t view the pictures because there were no longer there, or words to similar effect.  I assume that you took the photos?  Do the green drakes in the Delaware hatch in a fortnight around about the end of May? Regards, Michael.

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Thanks for the info Gary,  I checked the pictures but my outlook express newsgroup reader told me that I couldn’t view the pictures because there were no longer there, or words to similar effect.  I assume that you took the photos?  Do the green drakes in the Delaware hatch in a fortnight around about the end of May? Regards, Michael.

It is really for only 4 or 5 days on the Delaware I am told. Most hatch charts make it the last fortnight of May though. If you want the photos I would be glad to email them to you. Just let me know. Best, Gary

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Willi,  this sounds similar to the english E. danica indeed.  Does the Green Drake have a pale cream body with a couple of brown segments near the tail, alongside a slight olive colouring of the thorax / wing area and 3 long tail fibres? Like I said, I’ve never seen one. There are people on ROFF who have.

Willi,  I think I wasn’t making myself clear in the previous post of mine: what I meant was does the green drake flies that you saw have the features that I mentioned, i.e. pale body with brown segments near tail and a pale olive hackle & wing ~ and of course the 3 long tail fibres?  When danica is hatching, the big trout all congregate in the slow pool tails and hunt down the hatching nymphs and emerging duns furiously.  After the danica has gone by, the pool tails become devoid of big trout My guess is that you would find them there at sunset and into the night.

I have only fished into the night a few times when I was a kid.  The river in light is a wonderous place,  but for a 10 year old,  the darkness of night makes the water kind of creepy.   In ordinary days out fishing these days,  I have to be home by a reasonable hour  (wife & all that…) and so I’ll probably not get much opportunities for night / evening fishing ~ besides, 21 years later,  I still remember how creepy the river became in darkening light PS,  I had an excellent day’s fishing on my favourite stretch today.  The weather was excellent  (overcast, no wind and no rain but fairly warm) and there was a lot  of activity taking place.  The E. danica Mayfly spinners were dancing around laying their eggs.  I was amazed at how many there were, considering the carnage that was wrought upon the duns.  Anyhow,  I had a number of pheasant tail dryflies that I had already chosen to use for the day.  The fly is a simple creation of  3 PT fibres for the tail & body,  and a ginger cock hackle wound fairly bushy.  I have a streamlined variant with less hackle to be used in the really tricky spots where I have to cast under overhanging branches,  but that is not a durable floater for general fishing.  I caught about 20 fish at an average of about 3/4 lb each fish and quite a few indeed over the pound mark ~ 1 to be cooked on the smoker tomorrow.  This season has seen a beefing up of the fish stock and I’m sure that the fish are bigger  than that that I have become used to over the 6 years that I have fished this stream.  I saw an absolute clonker leap several feet out of the water, it looked good for 2 pounds.  However by the time that I reached this fish, the river went strange and my fly had become out of vogue ~ nothing went for my fly at all! Half an hour earlier I had just finished a period of about 3 hours whereby most fish that I covered rose to my fly.  I had been very pleased with the fly’s performance,  just as I had expected it to do since it is a good choice for this time of the year  (and it is easy to tie up too).  As I worked my way slowly towards the area where I saw the big fish rise,  I encountered some smaller fish bulging.  I wanted to turn these fish downstream of me without spooking the big trout, and so aimed to hook up as many of these fish as I could and bring them downstream and then release the tension in the line so that the hook falls out (no barbs) and releases the fish.  This is a good method of clearing a shallow section of water so that the angler may proceed slightly further upstream to a target fish. I started this plan,  but to no avail!  The fish totally stopped taking my fly,  and by the time I reached the area where the big one had been rising I did not have a single rise, despite a few fly changes, including a PT nymph. I have to admit defeat on this pool / glide, as I couldn’t entice a thing despite seeing many rises.  I like this pool as it a challenging but beautiful stretch of water some 50 yards long with many fish. Cheers for now, Michael.

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From the pictures I called up, the most similar in size and appearance to the Danica seems to be the Green Drake. Personally, I’ve never fished a Drake hatch, but there are other posters here that have and do. Wayne Knight, tries to make a yearly pilgramage to fish the Hex hatch in Michigan. He sent me some flies he uses for this hatch. They’re MUCH bigger than any Mayfly I’ve seen. The flies he sent are bigger than many flies I use for bass!

Willi,  this sounds similar to the english E. danica indeed.  Does the Green Drake have a pale cream body with a couple of brown segments near the tail, alongside a slight olive colouring of the thorax / wing area and 3 long tail fibres? The flight of a newly hatched Mayfly E. danica dun is quite a sight indeed. The creatures fly relatively slowly with rapid whirring of the wings and with the tail more or less pointing towards the water.  It takes them a bit of time to get the momentum up and during this time they are quite prone to aerial assults by the trout! I thoroughly recommend your seeing a drake hatch as it is like a festival on the stream.  The trout really go crazy and severely reveal their presence with savage swirls / splashes / leaps and so on.  On the rivers that I fish that have the E. danica,  it seems like the hatching of this burrowing nymph is the trout’s primary seasonal harvest, and the trouts’ indulgence is such that caution is temporarily thrown to the wind. After the E. danica hatch is over the river quietens down progressively through the months June July & August.  In late August the stream can be very quiet indeed,  and only the nymph seems to be successful in enticing fish to participate in my days’ operations.  During September,  things liven up a little, but by the end of the month it becomes close season,  with the cold winter days soon to come. I have come to believe that the hatching out of the E. danica is more or less the trouts’ raison d’etre, as it effectively forms the peak of the trouts’ feeding activities. [Just like for me,  catching trout on a beautiful stream is my raison d'etre!!!!] Without the E. danica, the trout hold station and help themselves only to the morcels that pass by, with the odd excursion to snatch a sedge; little energy is expended on such table scraps.  When danica is hatching, the big trout all congregate in the slow pool tails and hunt down the hatching nymphs and emerging duns furiously.  After the danica has gone by, the pool tails become devoid of big trout , and the yearlings / 2 year olds all return to their regular (non-danica) places.  The big trout then all disappear back to their lies in various alder roots at the heads of runs & pools and become somewhat more  difficult to catch until the next danica hatch that is…. In England,  the month of May is the dryfly month, as that is when the upwinged flies start to hatch out in earnest.  The last 2 weeks in May and the first week of June are really busy days with the dryfly and it is great fun just to be there: fishing and catching fish is merely the icing on the cake.  That being said,  I also like the "dogdays" of late summer too, as exploration work with the nymph is just as much fun as fishing the dryfly, and more demanding of the angler’s concentration and skills etc. Regards, Michael.

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Willi,  this sounds similar to the english E. danica indeed.  Does the Green Drake have a pale cream body with a couple of brown segments near the tail, alongside a slight olive colouring of the thorax / wing area and 3 long tail fibres?

Like I said, I’ve never seen one. There are people on ROFF who have.  When danica is hatching, the big trout all congregate in the slow pool tails and hunt down the hatching nymphs and emerging duns furiously.  After the danica has gone by, the pool tails become devoid of big trout

My guess is that you would find them there at sunset and into the night. Willi

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Snip. Thanks. Very well-written and a useful read.

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[a very informative snip] These types of feeding lies are not unique to this stretch of river. I’ve found similar unconventional feeding lies in many waters I’ve fished. They are not as readily apparent as "classic" lies but are definitely worth seeking out. Willi

Willi, just found this little gem of a post. It seems like you’re describing the upper Grand, just below Belwood dam – long stretches of medium-slow to slow water broken by riffles and chutes.  During hatches and off-colour water, these slow areas can be full of fish but in clear, low, no-hatch conditions they seem devoid of fish.  This river has a limestone bottom that is fairly flat in spots yet it has underwater ledges that change the depth by 6" or so, providing holding spots for fish.  I’ll work these waters from top to bottom, side-to-side with a streamer by wading downstream right down the middle and casting bank to bank. I’ve seen the "truck bed coverage" pattern of rising fish in slow water and though I have caught them on dries, though anticipating their next move can be frustrating (especially in a trico spinner fall) so I often fish them with a small streamer run very shallow and fast.  Even though they are keyed on a specific bug, they will usually smack a well presented streamer, since they are already in the feeding mood. Your post is a clear statement that anglers should spend as much time observing as they spend fishing. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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One question for you Willi:  do you have the English Mayfly (E. danica) over on your side?  Over here we have a fortnight (just finished) of total mayhem on the troutstream when these ephemeral leviathans hatch out.  

I did a web search and it seems that we don’t have that specific Mayfly although we do have a number of burrowing Mayflies across the country that are generically called Drakes. These Drake hatches bring up the big fish and also bring out anglers from all over to fish them.   From the pictures I called up, the most similar in size and appearance

to the Danica seems to be the Green Drake. Personally, I’ve never fished a Drake hatch, but there are other posters here that have and do. Wayne Knight, tries to make a yearly pilgramage to fish the Hex hatch in Michigan. He sent me some flies he uses for this hatch. They’re MUCH bigger than any Mayfly I’ve seen. The flies he sent are bigger than many flies I use for bass! The Mayflies on my home river are mainly small, 18 to 22. The exception is a large bright yellow Mayfly that hatches at dusk and into the night in July and August. I caught the largest trout I’ve taken on a dry during this hatch. The problem is that the hatch is strong enough to really interest the fish only once every five years or so. While at the Penn’s Clave, I got to see and fish some March Brown Mayflies. I thought they were huge but I was told that they were small compared to the Green Drakes. Willi

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Good stuff snipped. Willi,  this is an excellent post and something that I have also experienced, albeit in a very much minor scale to yours.  My rivers are much smaller than yours, however the trout do tend to move around in a similar fashion although probably proportionally to the size of the rivers concerned.  I have often found trout in the most bizarre places in the stream that I ordinarily wouldn’t have bothered casting to.  It is only when I have seen the sizeable fish flee from my upstream wading that I have gathered their presence in these particular spots, or else I have been very much surprised by a very much swirlsome rise in a strange spot.   In later visits I would target these areas, and indeed some good trout have been taken by my rod  from these previously "fishless" spots. On my fave stream  (of which I posted a pikkie in ABPF some weeks ago) there is a cow drinking spot that is at the very tail end of a long slow glide / straight pool.  Immediately in front of the shallow draining section are often very big fish for the river 1.5lb plus) in the very shallow water (1 foot deep).   I initially found these fish out years ago by all of their massive bow waves as they all shot off when I went wading up to them in ignorance.  I paid attention to this observation and over the years have had a lot of fun trying to deceive these fish.  On average, these trout in this spot have bettered my tactics as it is quite difficult to present a fly to them in consideration of the prevailing circumstances. These are very tricky fish to cast to with my small 6 foot rod:  in order not to scare the fish by my presence, I have to cast at the fish whilst standing in fast water ~ if I am not careful,  the drag on my line closest to me will accelerate the fly and drag it too fast past the fish.  I have to be sure to collect line quickly and to hold the rod as high as possible to avoid excessive downstream drag on the fly.  My most favoured approach is to use a PT nymph and pitch it about 18 inches upstream of the trout with a snaky cast (i.e. twang the flyline taut about 1 foot above the surface of the water to induce curves in the flyline / leader.  The trick is to try to mend the flyline so as the fly doesn’t suddenly accelerate when the curves are all brought straight by the dragging current. A nice slow start by the nymph is much preferred over the sudden acceleration.  Recently I have tried to get back into dryfly fishing, and this spot is very tricky indeed with the floating fly, however a bushier fly gives more time for the fly to be drifted over the trout before the dreaded drag acceleration.  (that being said,  I have caught plenty of fish with a dragging fly (usually accidentally) !!. One question for you Willi:  do you have the English Mayfly (E. danica) over on your side?  Over here we have a fortnight (just finished) of total mayhem on the troutstream when these ephemeral leviathans hatch out.  The trout all go completely nuts for them,  and the biggies come out into the pool tails and are relatively prone to the fly angler for the first half of the fortnight at least.  The trout seem to be so transfixed with the Mayfly that they will not  see the error of the angler.   For the rest of the year the biggies seem to disappear and are difficult to engage.  During the Mayfly (in England the Mayfly is a specific species of ephemerid, and it is disproportionally bigger than most other upwinged aquatic fly) fortnight the regular structure of trout feeding locations is more or less inverted and we find the big fish out in the open slow water, chasing down mayfly duns anywhere they see them.  I have seen on many occasions trout leap clear of the water to intercept an E. danica as it fluttered a foot or so over the water’s surface. Regards, Michael.

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There is a section of my home river where a walking/biking/jogging path runs above the river on a bluff for about a half mile. This high vantage point provides an unusual and ideal opportunity to observe the comings and going of the trout. It took me a couple of years before I began to utilize this viewing area. At first, I used the path to walk from one spot to the next or else I just waded along the banks of the river. One day, I happened to stop along the path and while looking down into the river saw a good fish feeding, suspended in the water about a foot below the surface, in an area I had ignored in the past. I took the time to check out more of the area, and found numerous good fish feeding in areas that I had passed by before because they didn’t "fit the mold" of good spots. After this first encounter, I’ve made it a habit to make observations of this stretch of water from the overlooking path on a consistent basis. I’ve learned a number of things watching the trout in this area over the years but two things I’ve learned that have changed the way I fish are: trout will move considerable distances to feed and they will choose feeding stations that are "unconventional" based on what is described by most of the angling literature. I’ve been watching these trout for most of the fifteen years I’ve lived here and have found that different fish, for their own reasons, choose different feeding areas. From my observations, it seems that the same fish choose the same stations while actively feeding, at least during water levels where I can observe and/or fish. Trout feed in a variety of locations throughout a stream or river. Some trout move very little from their holding positions to feed even during strong hatches. There are other fish who leave their holding locations to move to active feeding stations. Many of them will do this at specific times of the day depending on the season and will then return to their deeper holding water. I’ve followed fish for several hundred yards as they return to the pool after being spooked off their feeding station. Hatches will also draw them to these areas even if these hatches are at different times than their "regular" schedule. I enjoy fishing for and finding these actively feeding fish for a number of reasons. The fish have moved into these positions for one reason only, to feed and because of this, they are very vulnerable to being caught. Another reason that these fish are worth pursuing is that many of these areas are ignored by the average angler and more often produce better fish. In heavily fished water, and especially in water with open regulations, the better fish have a tendency to feed in areas where they aren’t likely to be caught. An Overview of this Stretch of Observable Water The bottom end of this stretch is the largest and deepest pool in about four or five miles of river that is form by a small diversion dam. This massive pool holds alot of fish. The head of the pool is a broad area of moderate current. The water is slower moving and the bottom more regular than the heads of pools on most western waters. Upstream from the head there is a long flat that runs upstream for about a third of a mile. The current is very moderate to slow and the bottom is regular with very few features. It averages about three feet in depth during higher water conditions, about two feet during average conditions and as low as a foot during low water conditions. There are a few depressions in this stretch where the water is about twice the average depth. At the upstream end of this flat there is a run about two hundred feet in length made up of irregular, faster, slightly deeper water. Upstream of the run there is a short area of very shallow rapid/pocket water.   The Head of the Pool The head of the pool always holds some fish, but during nonfeeding times, the fish are all small. During periods of feeding activity, a good number of fish utilize the head of the pool. There is usually a pod of fish just off the near bank in the deepest water just upstream of the pool. These are moderate sized fish although I’ve seen one or two very big ones over the years. This is classic feeding water but it is also the heaviest fished part of this stretch of river. I think that there would be more, better fish using this feeding station but since it is heavily fished and the river has open regulations, I think the better fish that utilize it are regularly caught and kept. Just upstream, the water gains a bit of velocity as it becomes more shallow. There are scattered fish throughout this area using the slightly bigger rocks or slight depressions to deflect the current while they feed on the food being swept by. These trout, as a rule, are better than average sized fish. The largest number of fish that feed in the head of the pool, feed on the sloping bar of shallow water on the far side of the river. The bar starts at the far bank and gradually deepens to about three feet in depth until it drops off into the pool at the head. This bar seldom gets fished because it is where 90%+ of the anglers stand to fish the obvious deep run along the near bank. The fish on this bar will consistently feed in water from one to three feet deep but will move into water just inches deep if the hatch is heavy and the sun isn’t direct. This sloping bar holds all sizes of fish. I caught the biggest fish I’ve caught in the river on this bar. It was caught at sunset on a summer eve, on a large dry in very shallow water where I saw it pushing wakes of water as it fed.   The Long Flat The next upstream stretch is the longest area of this section, almost about a third of a mile in length. It is a very featureless stretch of slow to moderately moving water. Aside from a few scattered fish that have found small niches, there is very little holding water and during nonfeeding times, it is virtually devoid of fish. It is water that in the past, I had always considered to be waste water. However, each morning and evening during the "season" trout move up from the pool to feed in this area. Hatches during the day will also bring fish up from the downstream pool. Some fish set up typical feeding stations but because of the slow current speed in many areas, some of the trout will set up a territory and cruise, more like lake dwelling fish. These fish will typically set up a feeding pattern covering an area typically about the size of large truck’s bed. They’ll feed at their upstream limit, then drift back and to the side to feed again and then repeat this pattern until they reach their downstream limit.  Then the fish will swim back to its starting position and start the cycle over again. In this apparently, featureless area, most of the feeding stations or territories are difficult or impossible to find without directly observing the fish from the elevated bank because there are no obvious visual cues that suggest a good lie. Even when observing the fish in their stations/territories, it is usually impossible to discern what advantage their chosen area has over another seemingly identical area that never holds a fish. This long stretch of water will produce all sizes of fish. Again I’ve observed that the very few "obvious" spots, generally don’t hold the best fish. Again, I believe that this is because the better fish that use these obvious areas are caught and kept. The Top Run and Rapids Section The broken surface of the water in this area makes direct observation impossible except during very low water levels. Most of the observations I’ve made are based on fish rising, bulging or pushing water while feeding as well as by angling for them. There are a few deeper spots in this area as well as some undercuts that also serve as holding water. Even though this area is fished fairly heavily, it consistently produces better fish. However, once again the best fish tend to be in areas that are either neglected by other anglers ie. VERY shallow sections or are difficult to fish ie undercut willows. All the typical lies in this area hold fish. Each seam, back eddy, pocket, depression, etc. has the potential of a fish. Because of its broken and somewhat deeper water, this is the only area in this whole stretch of river that will hold better fish during "off" times. During feeding periods, more fish will move into this area from the downstream pool. I’ve had some exceptional days on this area, especially during hatches. However, most of the best fish I’ve taken from this area have been in the VERY shallow water in the edges of the rapids at the top of the run. Sometimes they’ll feed in water so shallow that I’ve spotted the fish by the bulges of water they pushed upward while they’re feeding. Shallow areas like these are ignored by virtually all anglers. The other spot in this area where I’ve consistently caught good fish is a small eddy behind a log protruding from the bank. This spot is difficult to fish and requires an unconventional approach to cover correctly. These types of feeding lies are not unique to this stretch of river. I’ve found similar unconventional feeding lies in many waters I’ve fished. They are not as readily apparent as "classic" lies but are definitely worth seeking out. Willi

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Question:

I’ll be spending the month of July this year, travelling up the Alaska coast and then driving back the Alaska highway. Is anyone here familiar with the fishing along this highway in July? Any streams that are particularly worth stopping for?  What species should I anticipate? Any short side trips worth taking? Any and all advice is welcome. I have no idea how my experience (and fly patterns) with brook trout and atlantic salmon here in New Brunswick will transfer to the left coast. Thanks Brent

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Find a current copy of "Milepost".  This is the definitive guide to the highway and lists fishing opportunities all along the routes into and inside Alaska. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll be spending the month of July this year, travelling up the Alaska coast and then driving back the Alaska highway. Is anyone here familiar with the fishing along this highway in July? Any streams that are particularly worth stopping for?  What species should I anticipate? Any short side trips worth taking? Any and all advice is welcome. I have no idea how my experience (and fly patterns) with brook trout and atlantic salmon here in New Brunswick will transfer to the left coast. Thanks Brent

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No, but I sure can tell you it would be smart to know your blood type.  They have 500 pound misketoes and other blood sucking insects waiting for you. Make safety arrangements with the Red Cross. George Gehrke "O-Positive I’m Positive I’m not Negative"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Find a current copy of "Milepost".  This is the definitive guide to the highway and lists fishing opportunities all along the routes into and inside Alaska. Bill I’ll be spending the month of July this year, travelling up the Alaska coast and then driving back the Alaska highway. Is anyone here familiar with the fishing along this highway in July? Any streams that are particularly worth stopping for?  What species should I anticipate? Any short side trips worth taking? Any and all advice is welcome. I have no idea how my experience (and fly patterns) with brook trout and atlantic salmon here in New Brunswick will transfer to the left coast. Thanks Brent

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Well, that certainly helps with pattern selection and flysize. ;^ ) brent

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, but I sure can tell you it would be smart to know your blood type. They have 500 pound misketoes and other blood sucking insects waiting for you. Make safety arrangements with the Red Cross. George Gehrke "O-Positive I’m Positive I’m not Negative"

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Question:

 I was determained to nymph for a few hours  using all the valuable tips I had recieved at show. Going upstream with the sun at my back I used Wayno’s valuable crawling tactics–could not use Humphreys tuck casts upstream as it was mostly small  pods of water behind rocks. So I tried high sticking with a  strike indicator and caught several 10 to 12 inch  wild rainbows  that  were real active when hooked. I cannot understand  writers who suggest moving indicator up or down due to depth of water because in this type of water you would have to adjust every second cast.

That’s one of the reasons Humphrey’s teaches not to use an indicator  Wish I had seen Humphreys again – he’s a sparkplug.

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Wasted a day at fly-fishing show in Charlotte last weekend.

        (amazing amount of information shoved into a small space, snipped) I drove five hours home to Wilmington wondering why he had locked the door to his car. Joe McIntosh

        what a fantastic trip report.  when i grow up, i want to be just like you, joe.         your friend up in the red clay country         wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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"-Indian Joe I drove five hours home to Wilmington wondering why he had locked the door to his car. Joe McIntosh

Well Joe, it’s an an old yankee habit. I remember my surprise in NC one day,when I returned to my van and found out I had left the door open! Not unlocked but open!  . . . nothing amiss. john . . . who has noticed a predilection for people to push their remote button until the horn beeps.

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Wasted a day at fly-fishing show in Charlotte last weekend. Joe Humphres talk on nymph fishing had lots of films of Joe catching  fish in Penn many years and we were all requested to yell now when he sould set the hook!!That guy is as old as me, and his stories are  worn out. Then Casada spoke on fishing in N.C. mountains- stories about snowbird and Slickrock- later I ask him which way he went into Slickrock because his  belly  told me he couldn’t get back up Fat Gap. He allowed as he had not been out that way for a few years. Sunday I tried to fish the top part of Opie’s creek but the local police stopped me at lower bridge and said I would have to hike in. Some yankee from Long Island had parked his car last week at the trail hed, left a suicide note inside, locked the door and dissappeared. I hiked along way upstream, sun was out,water cold on feet and I caught only two small rainbows on dry flies. Think I was more concerned with hooking a body than setting the hook. Monday morning I stopped by Waldo"s shop and he  was so sick I did not want to hang around long enough to share whatever he had so I again headed out to Opie"s place.  I was determained to nymph for a few hours  using all the valuable tips I had recieved at show. Going upstream with the sun at my back I used Wayno’s valuable crawling tactics–could not use Humphreys tuck casts upstream as it was mostly small  pods of water behind rocks. So I tried high sticking with a  strike indicator and caught several 10 to 12 inch  wild rainbows  that  were real active when hooked. I cannot understand  writers who suggest moving indicator up or down due to depth of water because in this type of water you would have to adjust every second cast. Was really getting into all this when  the police arrived and ask me to leave the area—-the buzzards had not led them to that poor yankee’s body so they were going to try the "dogs". I drove five hours home to Wilmington wondering why he had locked the door to his car. Joe McIntosh

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Smoking that shit from cabin one again John????       Handyman         Mike Handyman   Mike

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Question:

(snip) Thanks, Dave

Dave, Don’t fish in Virginia!  There are no fish here!  All the fish are in Pennsylvania!  More fish are in New York!  So, don’t fish the Shenandoah, the upper Potomac, Stoney Creek, etc.  THERE ARE NO FISH THERE!  HONEST!!  Fish the Inner Harbor at Baltimore!  Many fish there.  More than you can possibly catch! — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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Hello all, I am moving to Baltimore ,MD after the first of the year and was wondering what there is for flyfishing available within about a 2 hour drive of the city. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Dave

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I saw on the Trout Unlimited web site http://www.tutv.org/html/maryland.html info about the Gunpowder river outside of DC.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all, I am moving to Baltimore ,MD after the first of the year and was wondering what there is for flyfishing available within about a 2 hour drive of the city. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Dave

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There is this little body of water that some call the Chesapeake Bay. There are a few fish in it. Good luck.

Hello all, I am moving to Baltimore ,MD after the first of the year and was wondering what there is for flyfishing available within about a 2 hour drive of the city. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Dave — Flyfish NC                                                   Capt Gordon Churchill http://www.flyfish-nc.com                                                                  

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Dave –         There’s more water within a couple of hours of Baltimore than you could reasonably fish in a lifetime.   I’ve lived in that area (actually DC) off and on for many years, and I’d be happy to introduce you to some of the local waters.   Drop me an email, and we’ll arrange to talk sometime.                                 Michael Roegner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all, I am moving to Baltimore ,MD after the first of the year and was wondering what there is for flyfishing available within about a 2 hour drive of the city. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Dave

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Dave, I Live in Baltimore and fish the Gunpowder river, at least once a week. It is about a 30-45 minute drive, depending on where you live.  Since our drought last summer, the fishing hasn’t been too hot. Plus the bay tribs are great for stripers now. Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all, I am moving to Baltimore ,MD after the first of the year and was wondering what there is for flyfishing available within about a 2 hour drive of the city. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Dave

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Dave: Ditto that for me.   I’m 20 mi north of Balto.   Two excellent fly shops in the area, The Fisherman’s Edge & On the Fly.   A couple good streams nearby, dozens more within a few hours’ drive. Drop me a line & I’ll fill you in. Joe Fleischman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave – There’s more water within a couple of hours of Baltimore than you could reasonably fish in a lifetime.   I’ve lived in that area (actually DC) off and on for many years, and I’d be happy to introduce you to some of the local waters.   Drop me an email, and we’ll arrange to talk sometime. Michael Roegner Hello all, I am moving to Baltimore ,MD after the first of the year and was wondering what there is for flyfishing available within about a 2 hour drive of the city. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Dave

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Hello, this is Caddis 7 I saw on the Trout Unlimited web site

http://www.tutv.org/html/maryland.html info about the Gunpowder river outside of DC. Hello all, I am moving to Baltimore ,MD after the first of the year and was wondering what there is for flyfishing available within about a 2 hour drive of the city. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Dave

   http://www.newsfeeds.com       The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!

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Hello, this is Caddis 7

I read you, Caddis 7.  How are things out there?  Over. a big 10-4, buddy.  Mark Faulkner

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Question:

Hello, Does anyone know good flyfishing classes offered around pacific NW (in September)?  I live in Seattle area and am new to flyfishing.  In fact I’ve never flyfished before but been curious about it for a while now.  I have couple of buddies who are also interested in flyfishing so we thought taking a class would be great way to get into the sport of flyfishing. Obviously we don’t have any equipments so we are looking for classes that rent necessary equipments. I am looking for weekend class (1-3 days). We don’t mind traveling as far as BC area (in fact we prefer that class is held away from Seattle proper so we can make this a road trip!) Any info, pointers, and suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, KC

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Did you try fly shops?  Most of them either have lessons or know who does.  

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There are several fly shops in the area that will either have classes you can take or will simply take you out to the parking lot and show you how to cast. In Bellevue try:     Kaufmanns Streamborn (By K-Mart) http://www.kman.com     Orvis (NE 10th and Bellevie Way) In Woodinville try Swedes In Seattle try:     Kaufmanns Downtown store     Patricks Flyshop     Outdoor Emporium     Avid Angler http://www.AvidAngler.com I often go to many of these shops and every one of them have very helpful poeple who should be able to get you started. You might also try getting in touch with the Overlake Fly Fishing Club (http://www.offc.superhighway.net) or the Washington Fly Fishing Club to see if their members would be willing to help. I’m fairly certain you will get help at either one. Disclaimer, I have no affiliation with any of the above but merely enjoy each for their own pluses and minuses. Gary Johnson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, Does anyone know good flyfishing classes offered around pacific NW (in September)?  I live in Seattle area and am new to flyfishing.  In fact I’ve never flyfished before but been curious about it for a while now.  I have couple of buddies who are also interested in flyfishing so we thought taking a class would be great way to get into the sport of flyfishing. Obviously we don’t have any equipments so we are looking for classes that rent necessary equipments. I am looking for weekend class (1-3 days). We don’t mind traveling as far as BC area (in fact we prefer that class is held away from Seattle proper so we can make this a road trip!) Any info, pointers, and suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, KC

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …while this was sound advice beware of the impression that all the problems you may have starting out is due to the lower cost equipment you purchased. No matter how much is spent on the rod everyone has to learn how to cast. In my experience even lower cost rods are fine for this – often their ’slower’ characteristics are more forgiving to the beginner. While the line is the most important part of the tackle – many of the lower priced lines available – ie the Sci Anglers Aircel lines, are quite alright. Basically the same line they sold for 2x the price a decade or two ago. But beware cheap off brands, particulary level lines. If the line has no brand name on it and you can’t detect it getting thicker as you move up the tip several feet, you should throw it away or keep it for trolling. Ralph H

Ralph has some good points,especially about avoiding level lines.  They are a total waste of money, plus cause casting problems and bad casting habits that take years to get rid of.  The less expensive Orvis Clearwater lines, and the SA beginner lines actually make casting easier for novices because of their short front taper design.  They turns over flys more easily.  The sacrifice delicacy in doing so, but usually a novice’s casting skills aren’t too delicate anyway and they help the cast extend.  As your skills improve, you will probably want to buy a better line before you wear one of these out. While some people have a tough time learning on a fast action or tip-flex rod, I’d hesitate to recommend a full-flex (soft action) rod for a beginner. In 1987 as we started changing the rods in the Orvis West Coast Schools from the full-flex Superfine Limestone Special to the mid-flex "Western Series Spring Creek" we had both types available for a while for our students.  Students would race to get the Western Series rods because they were easier to cast without throwing tailing loops.  Shortly thereafter we replaced all the full flex rods with the Western Series.  I should note we teach a forearm based stroke in our casting programs (both Orvis WC and my own schools) which works very well with this type of rod.  When people first start out the most common mistake is to use too much wrist often snapping it in mid stroke which almost ivariably overdrives the tip and causes tailing loops.  The mid to tip flex rods eliminate a lot of this problem because it is harder to overdrive the tip with this kind of design.  It can still be done, but is a more forgiving (of mistakes) action for beginners. Still, you need to cast the rods to see which ones you like.                            Good Luck,                                      Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools Mt. Shasta Fly Fishing Schools http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish

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I’m very, very new to fly fishing, and if nothing else, the people on this newsgroup have been very friendly in sharing information for a beginner. So, I went to our local fly shop, and was browsing around, and I saw something that floored me….the rods they were selling were in the $300 and up range… Now, I bought a fly rod and reel combo, that came with line, backing, leader, and a few flies for less than $60.00. What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?  (Other than broke. <grin)  What makes those rods that much more valuable? Thanks, Monte P.S. To reply via email, remove the ".dot" from my email address.

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I’m very, very new to fly fishing, and if nothing else, the people on this newsgroup have been very friendly in sharing information for a beginner. So, I went to our local fly shop, and was browsing around, and I saw something that floored me….the rods they were selling were in the $300 and up range… Now, I bought a fly rod and reel combo, that came with line, backing, leader, and a few flies for less than $60.00. What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?  (Other than broke. <grin)  What makes those rods that much more valuable?

If you are new, next to nothing.  At first, you probably won’t be able to tell the difference between a $60 outfit and a $500 rod.  Take your outfit out, fish with it, beat it up, make mistakes, break a tip, slip on a rock and break the handle off the reel (done that), but go fishing.  In a year or so, go to a fly shop and cast various rods once you’ve got the hang of things. If you can tell the difference and like the difference buy what you can afford.  If you can’t tell the difference or don’t like the difference stick with what you have or buy another one. I started out with a $15 rod/reel combo.  It cast like a broomstick, but it was what I could afford and caught fish. When I actually had money, I knew how to cast and could feel the difference in the actions of various rods and bought a reasonable quality rod/reel.  Plus when I fell on that rock and busted my reel I didn’t worry about it (much). My $0.02,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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Well the feel of the rod and its ability to case by improving transfer of energy to the line.  Oh I almost forgot the most important part, to demonstrate your dedication to the sport by showing others that you sent a reasonable sum of cash.  The person who spent the most has the best zen in fly fishing the rest is just for fun.  So I suggest that you peal the name off your rod and turn your reel in a lath and tell folks it is a two grand custom rig from Scotland this will impress them and the fish.  Or you could spend your time fishing and simply enjoying your surroundings and the sport.   good luck and get out and spend or fish. Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m very, very new to fly fishing, and if nothing else, the people on this newsgroup have been very friendly in sharing information for a beginner. So, I went to our local fly shop, and was browsing around, and I saw something that floored me….the rods they were selling were in the $300 and up range… Now, I bought a fly rod and reel combo, that came with line, backing, leader, and a few flies for less than $60.00. What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?  (Other than broke. <grin)  What makes those rods that much more valuable? Thanks, Monte P.S. To reply via email, remove the ".dot" from my email address.

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Monte Porche wrote [snip] Now, I bought a fly rod and reel combo, that came with line, backing, leader, and a few flies for less than $60.00. What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?  (Other than broke. <grin)  What makes those rods that much more valuable?

My guess is you’re probably right in going with the less expensive outfit to begin with.  I think you have to flyfish for awhile before you can start to appreciate some of the performance advantages of a more expensive rod. After you’ve gotten to the point where your casting effectively (not necessarily great … but effectively), try finding some fishing buddies who’ll let you try a few casts with their more expensive rods … or see if the flyshop you frequent will let you try casting a few of the rods they sell.  You may find some will perform better (then again, maybe not).  Rod speed is a factor that is important to many people – this refers to speed of casting movement which most "naturally" optimizes the cast for a particular rod.  Some people like fast rods, some like slow ones, it’s a matter of personal preference.  It’s also an issue you probably shouldn’t worry about until you have some experience … learn how to deal with the rod you have and you’ll be better able to feel the differences in performance of other rods. Also, these days, many of the more expensive rods come with a lifetime, no-questions-asked guarantee.  What this really means is that part of the price you pay is really group benefit rod insurance.  (If you fish a lot, you’ll probably make a claim sooner or later yourself!). —                                                       -dnc-

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All of the replies so far have been good. Heres my addition: The difference between low cost vs higher cost is nearly always a direct relationship between low quality vs. better quality, sophistication and performance. If you had just started driving (let’s say), perhaps you would never have realized that a Ferrari F355 could be so much more enjoyable than a Toyota Tercel (no offense intended, Tercel owners).  They both serve the same basic transportation purpose. Yet if you had started with the Ferrari, you might have said it’s "Hey it’s too twitchy, too hard to press in the clutch pedal thing, and when I press the accelerator the car goes wild! Nobody would wanna drive this!" The point is it’s better off starting with the basics. You’ve started out fine. Have fun. Don M. J.Kennedy Fisherto a Loomisto a Winstonto a W. Powellto a ??

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Don M. made the analogy of expensive flyrods/cheap flyrods to cheap cars/sports cars.  My question is this – Will a Winston or a Thomas & Thomas get you laid? Pete C

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If so, I’ve got to get me one of those. Dana

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Don M. made the analogy of expensive flyrods/cheap flyrods to cheap cars/sports cars.  My question is this – Will a Winston or a Thomas & Thomas get you laid? Pete C

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Don M. made the analogy of expensive flyrods/cheap flyrods to cheap cars/sports cars.  My question is this – Will a Winston or a Thomas & Thomas get you laid? Pete C

It’s not how expensive your rod is, it’s what you do with it that counts.  :-)      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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try finding some fishing buddies who’ll let you try a few casts with their more expensive rods … or see if the flyshop you frequent will let you try casting a few of the rods they sell.  You may find some will perform better (then again, maybe not).

Don’t do this!!! If you do you may end up in the same boat with the rest of us. A poor flyfisherman with alot of snazzy tackle and a wife who shakes her head with alarming frequency; as they say ignorance is bliss. Of course I never follow my own advice either. T.G. Mittler

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: If you had just started driving (let’s say), perhaps you would never have : realized that a Ferrari F355 could be so much more enjoyable than a Toyota : Tercel (no offense intended, Tercel owners).  They both serve the same basic : transportation purpose. Yet if you had started with the Ferrari, you might have : said it’s "Hey it’s too twitchy, too hard to press in the clutch pedal thing, : and when I press the accelerator the car goes wild! Nobody would wanna drive : this!" I understand the point ArtDrectr is making and for many, it probably works.  But not for me, and here is why.  Automobiles are sophisticated pieces of machinery and involve many parts that must work together. Significant design and engineering is required and many, many decisions made along the way to the market.   A graphite rod is very different.  It has a couple of numbers that characterize the performance and it is not difficult to change these numbers to make a rod.  For example, look at catalogs or talk to experienced fisherfolk… they will tell you a particular rod is soft or stiff, or at most describe 3 different types of flex.  A second factor is the weight, but that is about it.  That’s really all that matters.  (Well, durability too, but the guarantee should cover that.) As you get more experienced, you might move into a personal preference for a particular rod and if it matters much to you, spend the money.  For now, you done good with the cheap outfit.  As you gain experience, take the opportunity to try every rod you can, and see if you prefer other rods.  I suspect you will find rods that might be a bit less stiff than your current rod and you will definitely find rods that weigh less.  Pay attention to these things, but trust your judgement.  Your initial suspicions are right on. And by all means, send your kids to a good school before you spend your extra cash on expensive rods.  That is something that really makes a difference. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Don M. made the analogy of expensive flyrods/cheap flyrods to cheap cars/sports cars.  My question is this – Will a Winston or a Thomas & Thomas get you laid? Pete C

        maybe not; but you’ll feel like it’s happenin when you lay out line with either one.         a. wayne harrison

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What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?

The extra $250 gets you a guarantee.  Slam the tip in the car door and they will replace it.  I buy blanks and build my own rods, its a little cheaper, sometimes still get the guarantee,  put the same grip on all my rods (everythng must have the Fenwick style).  Its pretty easy once you get the hang of it, and its a good way to spend the off season. I’d fish the $60 outfit until the thing falls apart.  I’ve got more rods than you can swing a stick at and I always use the same two.  One of them is the first rod I built.  Good Luck. Patrick  

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: : What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get : me? : The extra $250 gets you a guarantee.  Slam the tip in the car door and they : will replace it.   Redington offers a replacement guarantee for a little over $100 complete, $70 blank. The 5-6 wt. is a fine rod. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m very, very new to fly fishing, So, I went to our local fly shop, and was browsing around, and I saw something that floored me….the rods they were selling were in the $300 and up range… Now, I bought a fly rod and reel combo, that came with line, backing, leader, and a few flies for less than $60.00. What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?   Hi Monte, One of the key things to keep in mind is that if you can’t tell the difference, it doesn’t make any difference to you. By the same token, junk is junk and a waste of money, *time* and *effort*, no matter how cheap it is.  A lot of folks start fly fishing buying the cheapest stuff they can find, slap it together, and try to make it work.  I did the same thing and spent 2 1/2 frustrating years trying to make a piece of junk work that just plane wouldn’t – it was bad equipment.

…while this was sound advice beware of the impression that all the problems you may have starting out is due to the lower cost equipment you purchased. No matter how much is spent on the rod everyone has to learn how to cast. In my experience even lower cost rods are fine for this – often their ’slower’ characteristics are more forgiving to the beginner. While the line is the most important part of the tackle – many of the lower priced lines available – ie the Sci Anglers Aircel lines, are quite alright. Basically the same line they sold for 2x the price a decade or two ago. But beware cheap off brands, particulary level lines. If the line has no brand name on it and you can’t detect it getting thicker as you move up the tip several feet, you should throw it away or keep it for trolling. Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I actually saw and held a size 32 Royal Coachman tied by Lee Wulff…quite a few years ago, asit happens. They did exist at some point. Herters Professional Fly Tying book stated that the small fly was tied by Miss Helene Shaw on Jan 21, 1939. It was tied on a specially made English hook size forty. The was pattern was a Royal Coachman. I don’t know if you can believe this source. Herter’s books are very interesting to read. There is alot of good information in them but you really have to sift through them. According to him, he originated almost every fly pattern & designed most everything used for tying & fly fishing. Fun books from a real character! Willi

My original queries on seeing the request for where to buy these was "What length are these hooks, what gape are they, are they up eyed down eyed or straight eyed? I don’t believe they are any more than a renumbered small hook given the number to massage the egos of fly tiers.  A bit like American dress sizes are given smaller numbers than they get in England. richard

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I actually saw and held a size 32 Royal Coachman tied by Lee Wulff…quite a few years ago, asit happens. They did exist at some point.

Any major compromises in construction details ?…I mean… that band of peacock/floss/peacock alone would be wider than the shank length, wouldn’t it ? Curious…thanks… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I actually saw and held a size 32 Royal Coachman tied by Lee Wulff…quite a few years ago, asit happens. They did exist at some point. Just checking if anyone out there can help me find some size 32 hooks. Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook. Anglerboy

And what material was used for the leader and how many fish did he catch with these flies? richard

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I actually saw and held a size 32 Royal Coachman tied by Lee Wulff…quite a few years ago, asit happens. They did exist at some point.

Herters Professional Fly Tying book stated that the small fly was tied by Miss Helene Shaw on Jan 21, 1939. It was tied on a specially made English hook size forty. The was pattern was a Royal Coachman. I don’t know if you can believe this source. Herter’s books are very interesting to read. There is alot of good information in them but you really have to sift through them. According to him, he originated almost every fly pattern & designed most everything used for tying & fly fishing. Fun books from a real character! Willi

Response:

I actually saw and held a size 32 Royal Coachman tied by Lee Wulff…quite a few years ago, asit happens. They did exist at some point. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just checking if anyone out there can help me find some size 32 hooks. Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook. Anglerboy

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Just checking if anyone out there can help me find some size 32 hooks. Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me.

FWIW. Some years ago I read in the "Guiness book of records", the smallest fly ever tyed on a hook was a dry "Royal Coachman" size 30+ something back in the thirties by a lady. ( Don’t recall her name)  Jocke

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I have some size #32 hooks (sorry, personal inventory only). I can not locate my source but they are labeled: Mustad M277. Mustad’s web site may be of further assistance. Good luck all! Mike.

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Somewhere down from #20 you have to tie a snell because there is no eye, just a little nub.

I just returned from a old tackle shop, and while I was there making my purchase of flies, I checked out the hooks.  The smallest I could find there was a size #28, it had a eye too.  I was talking to a dealer at a shop  few weeks ago, and he claimed there is a size #32 still around and this does not have a eye, just a little "nub" as you have stated…. –Randy Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $500.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.

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And I’ve seen ‘em, too. Some rodbuilders now use them to lay into the epoxy coat on the guide wraps. Very decorative, but can’t imagine the size tippet you’d need to put through the eye.

Ahh now I understand.  These hooks are made by Letraset….! richard

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Somewhere down from #20 you have to tie a snell because there is no eye, just a little nub. And I’ve seen ‘em, too. Some rodbuilders now use them to lay into the epoxy coat on the guide wraps. Very decorative, but can’t imagine the size tippet you’d need to put through the eye.

 The initial question is…why so small a HOOK?  Once you get to the level of stability with 8x…#22_hook?, why don’t you just tie the smaller pattern on the #22?  Once you get to #22..the hooking % will probably drop…..? steve

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And I’ve seen ‘em, too. Some rodbuilders now use them to lay into the epoxy coat on the guide wraps. Very decorative, but can’t imagine the size tippet you’d need to put through the eye.

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Somewhere down from #20 you have to tie a snell because there is no eye, just a little nub. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And I’ve seen ‘em, too. Some rodbuilders now use them to lay into the epoxy coat on the guide wraps. Very decorative, but can’t imagine the size tippet you’d need to put through the eye.

Response:

Go on then tell us what is a size #32 hook when it’s at home? What length is it or a size #30 for that matter? What gape? Is there an eye? Is it ringed straight?  Or turned up or down?

Some European hooks for coarse fishing are as small as a 30 or 32 on Mustad scale.  They are usually made with a spade end, to be whipped directly to nylon.  These seem different from the gold up-eyed hooks for fly tyers sold briefly in N.America as size 30 or 32 in the 1970s. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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I watched two fellows tie #30s by lanternlight just a couple of weekends ago beside the West Branch of the Ausable in NY. Mind you, I didn’t see anyone actually _fish_ with ‘em!

Go on then tell us what is a size #32 hook when it’s at home? What length is it or a size #30 for that matter? What gape? Is there an eye? Is it ringed straight?  Or turned up or down? Or are these hooks numbered in a reverse of the practice used in describing dress sizes in America?  A size 12 dress in America would be called a size 18 in England to flatter the buyer. Is there a fawning practice here of certain crafty hook suppliers to massage the egos of fly tyers and thus ensure some extra sales? richard

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0]

: Just checking if anyone out there can help me find some size 32 hooks. : Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you : might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook. : Anglerboy : — : Trout fear me, : Women want me. Aren’t they controlled by the EPA these days as suspected carcinogens as are other fine dusts like asbestos and silica? Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (415)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971

Response:

Just checking if anyone out there can help me find some size 32 hooks. Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook. The smallest hook I ever seen was a #28, and I cannot imagine something smaller. Personnally I will not fish with something smaller than 18 or 20.

I watched two fellows tie #30s by lanternlight just a couple of weekends ago beside the West Branch of the Ausable in NY. Mind you, I didn’t see anyone actually _fish_ with ‘em! — Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Disclaimer: Over 30 and born in Fredericton, NB

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   From my experiences, there are some differences between companies as to sizes of hooks. I have seen no. 20 hooks from Veniard that compared to no 18 hooks from Partridge.

This is true; the standards vary.  Regarding #32’s, I think there is a photograph in Robert Traver’s _Anatomy of a Fisherman_ which shows the #32 hooks which John Voelker/Robert Traver used. Woods Hole, MA   USA

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just checking if anyone out there can help me find some size 32 hooks. Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook. Anglerboy The smallest hook I ever seen was a #28, and I cannot imagine something smaller. Personnally I will not fish with something smaller than 18 or 20. By the way, does anyone know what unit of measure these hook numbers use? Sounds like a fraction of something, as the greater the number, the smaller the hook, but not being familiar with UK/US units of measure, I’m missing the starting point. We adopted the same numbers in France.

        From my experiences, there are some differences between companies as to sizes of hooks. I have seen no. 20 hooks from Veniard that compared to no 18 hooks from Partridge.

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Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you

might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me. what do you do when the fish are only selectively rising to #32 bugs? why you quit, sit and watch the fish rise, or just enjoy being outside, or you could drink a few beers. chris

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Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook.

A friend of mine gave a box of 100 size 32 hooks to me around 1973.  Since I have only a dozen or so left and not in the original box I cannot pass along any additional manufacturer info other than to discrbe them as gold with up-turned eyes.  I tied extremely small midges which worked quite well at producing takes on the Monocacy and Little Lehigh in eastern PA. However, as suggested, hooking fish was tough. I have never seen commercially advertized hooks smaller than 28 aside from these which were available only for a year or two back in the mid 1970s.  ..No, the few I have left are not for sale. Dennis

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Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook.

Size 32 hooks are sold in Europe.  They are made with spade ends, for you to whip on to a tippet, or sold snelled. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Response:

Just checking if anyone out there can help me find some size 32 hooks. Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook. Anglerboy

The smallest hook I ever seen was a #28, and I cannot imagine something smaller. Personnally I will not fish with something smaller than 18 or 20. By the way, does anyone know what unit of measure these hook numbers use? Sounds like a fraction of something, as the greater the number, the smaller the hook, but not being familiar with UK/US units of measure, I’m missing the starting point. We adopted the same numbers in France.

Response:

Just checking if anyone out there can help me find some size 32 hooks.

Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me.

Response:

Size 32 hooks are a figment of your imagination, as are any fish you might hook with one.  The eye would be bigger than the hook.

Darn tootin’. I have mustad 94842 hollow points down to a size 28 and with my aging eyesight I can barely see the eye (let alone thread anything through it). The hole appears to be smaller than the diameter of a human hair and you can only just see light through it. David E. Malone All opinions expressed are my own.

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Just checking if anyone out there can help me find some size 32 hooks. Will be glad to pay or trade for any amount.  Gunner

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Question:

Does anyone have a suggestion for spring Bluegill patterns? Thanks!

Response:

Does anyone have a suggestion for spring Bluegill patterns? Thanks!

About the best source for panfish fly patters is: Stewart, Dick.  Flies for bass & panfish /  1st ed.  Intervale, NH : Northland Press ; New York, NY : Distributed by Lyons & Burford, c1992.  v, 80, [7] p. : col. ill. ; 29 cm. If that’s not locally available, her are some suggestions: The traditional favorites are various rubber legged sinking flies with names like ‘Brim killer" and so on.  A simple, efective and easy to tie fly of this sort that I use a great deal is as follows: Lightly weight a #8 or 10 nymph (or baitholder) hook with lead wire. Tie in a lenght of medium black (or olive, hot pink, white, etc.) chenelle and wind to front making a "fat" body.  Tie in two long (2") strands of rubber hackle (white, black or to match body color) in the center, and pull the 4 ends back.  Wrap in a head, and whip finish.  Trim the rubber hackles to about twice the lenght of the fly.   Other simple sinking flies that work well for Bluegill are wooly worms, gold ribbed hare’s ear nymphs, peacock herl bodies with black or brown tail and wet fly hackle, black gant, bee patterns, small streamers, small wooly buggers, & mini-jigs. For surface bugs, the traditional cork poppers – sneakey Peets, pan pops, etc., are very good, but not worth tying given their cost vs. the time to make them.  Small (6 to 10#) hair bugs are good, and if you want to use dry flies, irresistibles or other deer hair body flies hold up well, as do hoppers, mudlers, etc. Basically, amuse yourself.  If you like it, the bluegill will too.   —

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Does anyone have a suggestion for spring Bluegill patterns? Thanks!

On the surface I have used small hard bodied poppers #10/12 in black or yellow and hair wing dry flies like a Humpy or Irresistible #10/12.  Under water I have had good luck with a black wet fly.  A little wooly worm, soft hackle fly or nymph #10/12. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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Does anyone have a suggestion for spring Bluegill patterns? Thanks!

I have found the Pass Lake pattern to be very effective for spring Bluegills.

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Does anyone have a suggestion for spring Bluegill patterns? Thanks!

A black beadhead wooly bugger fished at sundown, and right after, did the trick for me today.

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I admit I may be missing out on something, but I have literally only used one fly for panfish and caught hundreds over the years: a tiny yellow cork/balsa popper! Throughout the summer, I have never felt the need to fish underwater, as bluegill are 100% willing 100% of the time to savage a surface fly. At least, this is the case around the mid-Atlantic region. I _always_ catch them right along the edges of rivers and streams, in the shade under the banks. Scott (who sometimes believes fishing with wet flies is a glorified form of bait fishing!)

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        Jack Ellis (author of The Sunfishes) and I publish a newsletter every month that is devoted entirely to warmwater fly fishing (esp. bluegills).  Anybody who’d like to receive a couple of free samples just needs to email me their postal address and full name.  We feature patterns and tying tips in each issue.                                                 Brian

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Bivisibles work great!!  Use soft hackles on a size 12 or 14 and fish as a wetfly.  Quick inch retrieves with pauses between seem to really excite gills.  This is a favorite technique (of mine) in weedy ponds.   Color preference varies with light conditions. DBZ

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writes: Does anyone have a suggestion for spring Bluegill patterns? Thanks!

   I haven’t fished for bluegills for 25 years, and rather miss them.  My experience: on the spawning beds, nearly anything works.  In the summer, when the fish are scattered and lying deeper, two patterns really worked well — black gnat (#10 or so) with or without the wings, and a sort of spider that the local hardware store sold for two bits which had a soft vinyl body (like those Creepy Crawlies that kids make) and rubber legs. Crappies seem to like larger flies, esp. tinsel bodied patterns, and light, bright colors, yellow, white, pink.  Bluegills seemed more interested in buggy, naturalistic colors, # 10 or smaller.  The vinyl-bodied bug (a slow sinker) was effective at least partly because the fish didn’t spit it out.  See if you can borrow the neighbor kid’s Mattell machine, perhaps?   — Kilchis

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: Does anyone have a suggestion for spring Bluegill patterns? Thanks! I tie a large elk hair caddis(size 10 or 12), tan or florescent body, furnace hackle and a gold rib.  Use about twice as much wing as normal, coat the clipped head with Sally Hansens and you have a fly that dives pulling a lot of air under with the over large wing. Good luck, Bob Capistrant

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tw Does anyone have a suggestion for spring Bluegill patterns? Thanks! i like to use a threadfin shad, maybe size 10-12. it is a very natural minnow imitation which in springtime is larger than the current year-class fry, but smaller than the previous year-class. that makes it a very tempting morsel both for crappies and the larger bluegills. i find that the smaller bluegills will eagerly go after small bugs (nymphs, gnats, etc) but will be a leetle more hesitant about attacking a minnow. hence the streamer seems to work well for mixed panfish beds (i.e. crappies, bluegills, in several year classes). but the threadfin shad is expensive! 2-3$ per. does anybody have a recipe for it? it would be great if i could manufacture them myself. i suppose the reason for the high price is that it has an epoxy body (???). it has a tiny tuft of marabou tail. the body has 3 black spots on each side. the body is silvery, dark back, light belly. the good news is that i only need 2-3 of them each spring, since each one will catch about 50 fish before it disintegrates. ra. — Richard Atkins              Phone: (612) 951-7339           Honeywell Technology Center FAX:   (612) 951-7438 MN65-2200     3660 Technology Drive                                      

Response:

Does anyone have a suggestion for spring Bluegill patterns? Thanks!

Tom: Here’s a suggestion on something called a "Pus Fly" (don’t blame me, I didn’t name it).  I read about it on the wall of Jene Hughes’ fly shop in Des Moines, the 2nd. Ave. Bait Shop, and have been using it for two seasons now. Use a size 8-12 3x nymph hook and chartreuse thread.  Tie in a piece of bead chain so the hook rides upside down.  Tie the chain "eyes" about a quarter of an inch back from the eye of the hook.  Tie in a short tail of chartreuse marabou, and then tie a stubby body of some sort of chartreuse material (I’ve used chenille, ice chenille, body wool, and even floss) to just behind the bead eyes.   Tie in one or two turns of chartreuse or green hackle.  Finish by building cross-tying around the bead eyes and then tapering a kind of long, sloping nose down to the hook eye.  Coat the nose fairly heavily with head cement (you’ll catch a LOT of fish on each fly).  The finished fly has a little resemblance to a Crazy Charlie bonefish fly. You can also tie them in purple, black, orange, and white (sort of my descending order of preference). My most effective way to fish it is anywhere from 18" to 4 feet under a fair-size bass or bluegill popper.  The popper acts as a strike indicator but also can catch a lot of fish on its own. The ice just went out on our farm ponds about three weeks ago, and I’ve already caught several dozen pretty nice ‘gills on these flies.  They seem to work particularly well during early spring and late fall, but will work all year. Enjoy, Bob

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Question:

writes: Can anyone give me some good advice on flyfishing in CentralNorth Jersey.  I’m new to the area and have fished on the south branch of the Raritan (Califon), but it’s incredibly crowded.  Would appreciate any pointers E-mail me back! Thanks Paul Amatangelo

Paul, Along with the Musconetcong River, you may want to try the Pequest, Paulinskill, and Big Flatbrook in New Jersey.  However, you may want to drive the extra distance and fish such rivers as the Bushkill and Lackawaxen in Pennsylvania, as well as the Beaverkill, Esopus, and the East & West branches of the Delaware River in New York. All these rivers are within two hours driving time from northern New Jersey.     Good Luck!

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I am 15 years old and live in Princeton NJ. I just started Fly Fishing a year ago and have tried many a spots in this area. Right in Princeton is the Stoney Brook which is stocked with trout and other fish and is known to produce bass and perch. The Assunpink River (not lake) has alot of perch and Shad and has produced a few trout and bass for me. The Pequest and Flatbrook rivers are also very good for trout. But for bass fly I would recomend a spot that I found two years ago when I was a spin fisher. It is in the Delaware Raritan canal. IT is right by the main entrance to the Bulls Island Campground on the Delaware River. Its on the New Jersey side in case your confused. Thats all I can THink of but if you would like advice on other spots feel free to write. Matt

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Saturday, May6 I went to the North branch of the Raritan at Rte 206 and 287. Very little crowd.  I didn’t catch any trout but another fellow had 3 on a stringer.

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Can anyone give me some good advice on flyfishing in CentralNorth Jersey.  I’m new to the area and have fished on the south branch of the Raritan (Califon), but it’s incredibly crowded.  Would appreciate any pointers E-mail me back! Thanks Paul Amatangelo

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Try the Musky west of the route 24 bridge just pass the fly stretch. This area has produced some 8 lb fish. I know, from first hand experience I didnt catch it, put a witnessed the fight and landing of the monster. The person who caught it was a rookie, only his third time out. Some people have all the luck. Good Luck.

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Question:

1.  Most junk mailers think they’re doing a public service. Don’t be so all-fired-up certain they’re *not* doing a public service. [...] Let’s face facts, nobody goes to the library to research what deoderant to buy, so the decision is largely based on what advertising has had the most effective.

That may be the basis for *your* decision. Personally, I use such sources as the net and Consumer Reports to find out about products. As far as I’m concerned, junk mailers are performing a public DISservice by helping to fill our world with garbage. So, while I applaud your efforts, and I’m concerned at how much crap goes on at public expense, I must remind you that *advertising is not evil*! It is a perfectly valid method of informing the public of one’s goods and services.

You’ve made quite a leap here. The poster was complaining about JUNK MAIL, not about advertising in general. I don’t care if people advertise; I just wish they would do so in a way which doesn’t directly contribute to our pollution problem (i.e. when I "throw away" or disregard a TV commercial, I don’t have to pay the trash man to haul it away, and it takes up no space at the town dump. A case could be made that commercials cause noise pollution, but I won’t be the one to make it here…) JUNK MAIL SUX!! — "Unisys has demonstrated the power of two. That’s their stock price today."        - Scott McNealy on the history of mergers in the computer industry.

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ONE MANS JUNK IS ANOTHER MANS TREASURE! Don’t get personal opinions in the way of having an open mind about BOTH the GOOD AND BAD, that these things can do.  This applies in any and all facets of life.  HAVE an opinion, it is your RESPONSIBILITY, but don’t hamper other peoples as well in trying to keep your own.  Who knows, one day you might change your mind. (Isn’t life great) I personally LIKE *SOME* of the junk mail I have gotten over the years, and have gotten a few good deals in that way.  On the other hand, most of it IS junk, but doesn’t this relationship apply to all of life and not just glossy paper with a postage paid stamp on it. (THINK ABOUT IT) I am sure most people have gotten some kind of use out of some of the JM they have recieved. (PLEASE NO FLAMES, I am just expressing some of my thoughts, good or bad) Christopher Walton

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That may be the basis for *your* decision. Personally, I use such sources as the net and Consumer Reports to find out about products. As far as I’m concerned, junk mailers are performing a public DISservice by helping to fill our world with garbage.

Hey, without junk mail, what would fill the inside back cover of Consumer Reports?  (the Selling It column) —      .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.

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Anyone who’s worked in the advertising field (as I have) knows that the purpose of advertising is to enforce purchasing decisions already made.  Advertising is pretty weak at persuading people to make new buying decisions, great at making people feel glad about the ones they’ve already made.  Junk mail works best with people who enjoy receiving junk mail and who have responded to it in the past.  It has little benefit for those who resist its blandishments.  My feeling is, if you want it, you should be able to affirmatively request it; and if you don’t, it shouldn’t get sent. Bob Jacobson

Response:

Don’t be so all-fired-up certain they’re *not* doing a public service. When you have a family of four to feed (as I do), you appreciate learn- ing about bargains and getting coupons.  

Don’t forget the guy in Washington State that takes pride in being able to heat his house for the winter solely by burning junk mail.  Not exactly pollution free, because it screws up the catalytic converter on wood stoves, but a neat story anyways.

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Don’t be so all-fired-up certain they’re *not* doing a public service. When you have a family of four to feed (as I do), you appreciate learn- ing about bargains and getting coupons.  The rest just goes into the trash (eh, recycling bin!).  My biggest complaint is that it’s the same damn set of coupons every week.  If you don’t happen to like Pizza Hut, too bad.  But once in a while, you’ll get Pollo Loco coupons (which our family *does* like), or other values, which is worth an occasional sort. Pollo Loco? "Crazy Chicken"? Oh, sounds delicious…

It is!  Have you tried it?  Instead of frying the bird, they char-broil it.  There is a whole host of imitators now! Actually, ARA runs a mexican fast food place at the University called "El pollo grande" (the big chicken)…

Probably an imitator.  Like they say, "the sincerest form of flattery …" The average American sees and ignores more than 2000 advertising mes- sages every day.  You oughta be used to it by now. But just because we’re used to something doesn’t mean we have to take it.  "You oughta be used to tax increases by now, so don’t complain"

Slightly different … you can *not* ignore a tax increase!  Trust me, I’ve tried! Let’s face facts, nobody goes to the library to research what deoderant to buy, so the decision is largely based on what advertising has had the most effective.  *It is true* that without advertising, you simply *would not know* about the very existance of the products you buy and use.  The companies that produce those products would go out of busi- ness.  Then you (or me, or others like us) would be out of work. Yeah! If food manufacturers and grocery stores didn’t advertise, we wouldn’t buy any food! (Hey, wait a minute…)

You’re ignoring a fundamental problem, even with grocery stores. Grocery stores litter the landscape like McDonald’s’es.  How is one going to get you to drive an extra ten minutes to come to *their* store if they don’t tell you they exist? Why should they pay tens of kilo-bucks to advertise on TV to the entire area, when for a mere centa-buck or two they can target just the neigh- borhood?  Then add a few money-saving coupons as extra incentive, and viola!  Customers show up! Word about products is accomplished through word of mouth and "Consumer Reports".

Actually, advertisers have a lot of respect for both of these methods. Word-of-Mouth is naturally considered superior, since it’s an objective opinion from a trusted friend, relative, or neighbor. But you’ll go out of business waiting for Word-of-Mouth to get started! Word-of-Mouth, albeit the most sought after and reliable, happens to be the *slowest* form of advertising in existance!  So you put up some billboards, send out some flyers, print up some coupons, and get some people to come in and *try the product*.  Then, if your product is good, these experimenters can get the ol’ Word-of-Mouth Ball rolling. As for "Consumer Reports," I can only say that they fall into the cate- gory of "Caveot Emptor", like everything else.  I have experienced, and have talked to people who have experienced, that very frequently if you are *intimately familiar with the products* that you *disagree* with what they say about them.  If you can’t trust them on things you know about, how can you trust them for things you *don’t* know about? (Altho, I would trust most of their auto surveys.  This information is not based on their employees’ possibly biased or un-informed opinions, but rather on surveys from their readers.) My point stands.  One reason most of us can live the life of luxury that we enjoy is because companies who create products use advertising to get people to buy them.  This creates jobs, which puts money into the hands of people, who can then go out and buy more products! — "We’re sorry, but the reality you have dialed is no longer in service. Please check the value of pi, or see your SysOp for assistance." UUCP: uunet!{hplabs,fiuggi,dhw68k,pyramid}!felix!asylvain

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My point stands.  One reason most of us can live the life of luxury that we enjoy is because companies who create products use advertising to get people to buy them.  This creates jobs, which puts money into the hands of people, who can then go out and buy more products!

All Hail, Conspicuous Waste!  Long live, Throw Away Society! Bill

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1.  *CALL* the DMA’s Mail Preference Service at their secret, unlisted number (212)768-7277 and ask to be listed in their Suppression File. Stay on the phone while the computer operator types your address in. If you leave a message they may just discard it. Call them a month later and ask if you’re listed.  

I called just now – the operator told me that she couldn’t enter my information over the phone – she told me to either write in requesting this or she could send me a form.  I asked for the form; I hope that it gets a better response than the letters did.         -= iain <=-     "a sysadmin kinda guy"

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%8.  When they ask for my name and address at Radio Shack, I tell them %firmly but politely, "For the purpose of your data base, my name is Joe %Tandy and my address is GPO, Fort Worth, Texas."  Radio Shack is one of %the few large junk mailers who can’t be bothered to maintain a suppression %file. I’ve been told one great thing about Tandy but I can’t confirm it.  Can anyone? Tandy/Radio Shack does NOT sell its mailing list and from what I’ve heard they have the largest in the States. %(c) 1991, Cameron Spitzer, San Jose, California Great article, Cameron!  Thank you! Zap — Zap Savage, Savage Research, Inc. "There’s a fine line between fishing and standing on the shore like a fool."         -Steven Wright "It’ll never fly, Orville."         -Wilbur Wright

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