Question:
In response to wayno, I submit the following post which I’ve copied verbatim from another newsgroup. This group had a similar problem for about a year, but following the show of support from this post, the pest finally cracked and left (or claimed to and appears to have.) I make no comment for or against the following idea, other than to say that it’s a tad geeky for my taste, and I did not publicly respond to it like many did, but I did follow the spirit and have not replied to or mentioned the pest since. It’s here merely as an FYI. However, feel to respond to the following as if it were a genuine ROFF post. end of my msg. After some informal discussions in private email with a few regulars here, I have decided the time has come to request a full Usenet Ignore Penalty (UIP) against the most obvious and antagonistic trolls in [newsgroup]. This UIP is, of course, fully voluntary; each of you is encouraged to do your own thinking and follow your own conscience on this matter. However, I am convinced that a coordinated UIP is the surest way to restore a higher signal:noise ratio to this group. What do I mean by "ignore?" It goes beyond killfiling, or resisting the impulse to reply to outrageous or inflammatory statements. We must take the next steps, as well: We must not even mention these trolls in passing, in humor, or in contempt. We must not mention them *at all*. In a properly executed UIP, the recipients of that UIP essentially cease to exist, even as a memory, except possibly insofar as the data packets carrying their unread posts faintly rattle around the network. They cease to exist. The group merely goes on about its business as if the trolls never showed up. Who are the trolls in question? In the spirit of the UIP, I would prefer not to name names. However — and I speak just for myself here — I would be less than honest not to name [our pest] as the prime example and motivator behind this effort. Most of you are probably well acquainted with [their] favored techniques. They include the making of allusions to a hostile old guard, or "clique," in this group; repeated complaints about smear tactics being used by their adversaries; a simultaneous plea to "just talk [hobby]" while continuing to engage in inflammatory accusations unrelated to [hobby]; and quickly embracing certain unpopular (but not trollish) contributors to the group as a way of demonstrating "mob mentality" among those who dislike those contributors. Other trolls might have their own methods. My belief is that anyone who shows up making inflammatory statements with the apparent intent of drawing attention to himself is probably a troll. There are others, besides [our pest], who are on my personal list, but I won’t mention them here. The point is that I encourage you always to ignore trolls as completely as possible. (My intent, btw, is for this to be my last ever mention of [our pest], in [newsgroup].) Finally, to make this a coordinated effort, I would like for anyone who agrees to participate in this UIP to followup to this post, quote only the paragraph that follows, and write, "I agree," where others can clearly see it. (You may wish to add specific further comment after that, as I have.) This henceforth will be referred to as the "2002 RSG Pledge." If you agree to it, prepare to get grief from me if you break it! :) But remember: I respect that the degree to which you participate in this is entirely your decision. Some of you may prefer to silently participate without publicly embracing the pledge. I respect that choice, too. —cut here if you agree— "In the interest of preserving the usefulness of [newsgroup] as a forum for discussion of the game as well as a place for friends to affiliate in a collegial manner, I agree not to respond in [newsgroup] to any posts made seemingly solely to disrupt that atmosphere, regardless of their inflammatory or even defamatory nature. Further, I agree that those who habitually post in such a fashion are not worthy of any discussion or even mention in [newsgroup], and that therefore I will not make any specific mention of any of these individuals in any post to this newsgroup."
Response:
Hey, Fishreeler, I’ll see you at Penns. I will show you a lovely stretch of water called Frank’s Pool, found by your friend Frank Reid. Of course, Peter Charles and I cleaned out the pool before Frank could land a fish, but that’s another story. And, much to the disgust of other roffians, I’ll make a nympher out of you. <g Dave
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As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World.
Believe it or not, that is sometimes the exact perspective needed. Your early experiences and lessons learned can be valuable advice to another just staring out. Not everybody here is an expert, nor is everyone who comes through the door. Even the jaded and experienced will take joy in your progress. Post what you know, what you learn, what you experience. It’s as valuable and welcome here as any of the esoteric baloney the experts post. Welcome to the nuthouse. Joe F.
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fishreeler welcome! Look, as long as you avoid words like "meniscus" and the "the Kreh Effect" [ : - ) ], and try not to blatantly sell things [ 
]. you can pretty much say what you want without fear of too much in the way of reprisals. Most of the group is interested in discussions relating to our mutual interest in fly fishing. I personally have never been flamed for asking a dumb question, and I think that if you ask begineer type questions that are interpreted as sincere you’ll be fine. Periodically, someone will take umbrage to a question if they believe there is some ulterior motive to the question- like a potential spammer trying to get a sales op for instance. I butted in to my first clave at Ennis 2 years ago after being a lurker for a only a few months. Met some great people with a wide variety of fishing, and other, experiences. I believe this is the real fun of this group. I can wander down to the local fly shop and BS about fishing the Blackfoot whenever I want- but to hear about North Carolina, or the San Juan, or Wisconsin is pretty interesting- to me. The claves are fun too because you can put a name to a face and a real person and learn something from some damn fine fisherman – sometimes even fishing related stuff. As with all groups, there is a tremendous variety of knowledge and experience present. Take advantage, have fun, and be responsible about what you post. john
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Ken, I would hope that all who read my post understood that I took no sides in the matter. I was just stating my personal opinion on the whole matter as the new guy. Being that everyone has been in the realm of ROFF for a while, I believed that maybe, just maybe, my opinion would breath a breathe of fresh air into the room. There are no sides for me, you enjoy fishing, I enjoy fishing, everyone in here enjoys fishing. I say that that puts me on the winning team overall. I may not be as eloquant in writing in my posts as others, but nonetheless, the point is given. Thanks for the reply, and I cant wait to go to Penns! Fishreeler——<< "Danno Mattice"
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Fishreeler? Strange name. It’s easy to not get involved in flame wars – if somebody flames you, walk away. If somebody really pisses you off, killfile ‘em. Make sure Frank brings a warm sleeping bag this year, but tell him to leave the tutu at home. You’ll have fun at Penns… –Stan
Hmmmm!!! Frank never told me about that. But I could always find a soft tree out by the creek and fall asleep by the sounds of the water instead of listening to the rustling of a tutu. Fishreeler came about when I was trying to find a screen name on AOL. That is when I was with AOL. So, I have adopted the name as my own now. Seems that all you other fisherman and women took all the good names at the time. However, I kinda like the name and it grows on me. Not to say that I am an expert, but have been doing it for a while. Thanks to all for the warm reception. Fishreeler—–<< Danno Mattice "Cant think of anything quippy to put at the end of my post yet, I havent seasoned enough in ROFF yet" 
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… I was just stating my personal opinion on the whole matter as the new guy.
As a new guy, your opinions on "the whole matter" are not likely to be well received, inasmuch as they’re not only negative but uninformed. Your opinions and observations about our shared avocation, on the other hand, are most welcome and may very well be a breath of fresh air for some. See you on the stream. — Ken Fortenberry
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To George’s Post, As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering. First and foremost, welcome to ROFF, and, IMO, post away, be it fishing or anything else. And to (mainly) any lurkers reading, as here is as good a place as any, here’s some info.
And another note to new readers. You do NOT have to read rdean’s posts in their entirety. In fact, none of us have. 
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<whole buncha stuff snipped This May will be my maiden voyage to Penns Creek. I will be going up with Frank as he and I have discussed. Fishreeler? Strange name.
made me think of trolling…
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To George’s Post, As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering. First and foremost, welcome to ROFF, and, IMO, post away, be it fishing or anything else. And to (mainly) any lurkers reading, as here is as good a place as any, here’s some info. And another note to new readers. You do NOT have to read rdean’s posts in their entirety. In fact, none of us have.
Something I am not only grateful for, but that I count on and plan for, I assure you. That way, I can say any damned thing I wish – Jeff C. secretly yearns for TBone’s rather unusual sex life, for example – and by the time those who read only various parts attempt to get their stories straight, no one can remember what it was that I claimed or denied to have said… TC, R …that’s my story and I’m sticking to it…unless you can prove otherwise, in which case, google made a mistake…
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To George’s Post, As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering.
First and foremost, welcome to ROFF, and, IMO, post away, be it fishing or anything else. And to (mainly) any lurkers reading, as here is as good a place as any, here’s some info. Where I have addressed "you," it’s more addressing the point raised than _you_ specifically, but as your post inspired it, take what you will from it, too. It’s all IMO, YMMV. As to Ginkles, read his posts and responses to and regarding Frank Church and the fly swap, if none other, to see just a portion of what he is all about. I rarely advise others against anyone, preferring to allow them to discover and choose for themselves, but regarding Ginkles, I’ll make an exception. However, if you do choose to befriend him, I’d not hold that decision against you. That said, a few things, all IMO and, of course, YMMV: First, you seem to be lumping every slight you may have observed, real and what you perceive as real, into the same pile, and IMO, that’s not correct. Of course, there are, um, (generally good-natured) debates where the language may get heated and sarcastic, but likely as not, the apparent "combatants" would drop the debate and go fishing, drinking, whatever together at that very second were it possible. That is a far cry from attacks by and on Ginkles and others who do or attempt to do real damage. FWIW, there are only two people, on all of ROFF, past and present, who I would not associate with, Ginkles being one. As I’ve said it publicly before, so I feel nothing wrong in restating the obvious. The other, who shall go unnamed, I’d be willing to give the benefit of the doubt should we ever be faced with that situation as the "rift" is, IMO, strictly a difference in personality, not me thinking them as being truly warped. I suspect that most, if not all, here on ROFF would say a very similar thing. Secondly, any of the, er, debating that takes place is strictly voluntary, and I’ve not seen anyone "attacked" as some seem to imply without the "attackee" getting involved, either by diving in, suggesting that those doing so are wrong, offering opinions on why they are wrong, tips on how to be right, etc. The best rule on these "debates" is to get in or stay out, because wading in the shallows is still in the water. If you do wade in the shallows and still get bit, remember that damned little of it is personal, and don’t take it as such. This brings us to a cause of some real problems – getting personal. Don’t do it. What I mean is going beyond the person on ROFF. No family members, job/career, etc. unless you are DAMNED sure of what you are doing and willing to deal with the sometimes-dire consequences of making a mistake. For example, there are several lawyers here, and while a general humorous remark about lawyers is likely OK, "jokingly" accusing one of malpractice is likely gonna get your head torn off, and rightfully so. As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World. I started looking over this group at the suggestion of Frank Reid, whom I have known for a very short time, almost as long as I have been prowling ROFF. I came to this group to learn all that I could, to get some kind of direction, if you will. In fear of opening my mouth and asking a "stupid newbie" question, I kept to my own in fear of the embarrassment of not knowing as much as the next guy.
Then you’d never post anything, and that’s a pity. There will _always_ be someone more knowledgable than _everyone_ , and they may or may not even participate on ROFF. So who cares? 99.99 percent of FF’ing and the related info, on or off ROFF, is opinion, guesses, observations, and other highly subjective things. Heck, the rankest newbie might be the only one in a group with 100 experienced FF’ers to guess, opine, observe, etc., correctly. As to asking questions, of course, sometimes, someone will have a bad day, not had sex with their wife, been forced to have sex with their wife, gotten up on the wrong side of the bed, or a host of other things that leads to teeing up on someone for no apparent reason. That ain’t ROFF, USENET, or anything computer-specific, that’s life, and if _that_ is what worries a "newbie," they are screwed before they start. If you take that sort of thing personally, IMO, ROFF ain’t the problem. So ask away, and if someone tees up, either ignore it or give it back in spades, but remember that pissing and moaning about it will just invite more. Again, that isn’t ROFF-specific, that’s life. As to ROFF itself, go back and look through some threads – when it does happen, it isn’t the "feeding frenzy" some imply, it’s generally one person who, for whatever reason, got their back up, while others either gave the requested info or called the person on their conduct (or both). Which brings us to the next tip: there is a "pecking order," and again, this isn’t ROFF-specific. There is no real "clique" in that newcomers are excluded simply for being newcomers, but there is a core of people who have been around awhile. People who have been around awhile do develop a sort of "seniority," most come to "know" each other over the years, and many have actually met or have met in a "7 degrees of separation"-kinda way, and so, can get away with personal liberties, such as chastising, that newcomers (An aside – ya know, I think I like "newcomer" more than "newbie") cannot expect to be able to do. And yet again, this factor isn’t ROFF-specific, you’ll find it on just about any NG, because that’s the way all of life seems to be. Remember that although this is, to a large extent, not a "face-to-face" medium, and that creates a new, and for some, odd, context. There are people here who "know" each other, care about each other, know details that only friends would know, share things only friends would share, talk regularly as friends do, etc. The only "new" thing about some of these friends is that they’ve never _all_ physically met. But they are friends, nonetheless, and so, act just as two/several friends would act if in the same physical space as opposed to the same electronic space. And just as with them being in the same physical space, a newcomer can’t expect to simply walk up and be treated as one who has a history with the group. That doesn’t mean he can’t walk up and begin the process. So, then, what’s stopping you, or any other potential new friend, from "walking" on up? I had thoughts about not getting involved at all with any of the group because the offensive ones would surely break in and criticize me for my lack of experience in the field.
Fuck ‘em. If you talk lures, baits, the other type of fishing with casting line, I could probably talk your ear off, but on this level, I am but a beginner.
Basically, other than the tackle differences, and the delivery of same, it’s all just attempting to fool fish with stuff that, amazingly, actually manages to sometimes fool them. Nobody lives or dies based on FF’ing knowledge, so a newcomer is as welcome to be wrong as the rest. A bunch of good stuff snipped, because it didn’t seem to warrant comment. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Respectfully submitted,
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Lying, cheating or stealing for personal benefit I can understand, if not respect. These characters, though…. it’s like cheating yourself. It’s like inflicting self-abuse. It defies understanding.
These are the kind of people who cheat at solitaire and then are happy that they won. Weird. — rbc: vixen Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli
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fishreeler, i’m looking forward to wetting a line with you in may. fer gawd’s sake, don’t take wading lesson’s from frank <g –waldo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To George’s Post, As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering. As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World. I started looking over this group at the suggestion of Frank Reid, whom I have known for a very short time, almost as long as I have been prowling ROFF. I came to this group to learn all that I could, to get some kind of direction, if you will. In fear of opening my mouth and asking a "stupid newbie" question, I kept to my own in fear of the embarrassment of not knowing as much as the next guy. I had thoughts about not getting involved at all with any of the group because the offensive ones would surely break in and criticize me for my lack of experience in the field. If you talk lures, baits, the other type of fishing with casting line, I could probably talk your ear off, but on this level, I am but a beginner. However, I thought that there are always those who would be out there that enjoy spoilling it for others who love the sport so much. To make themselves inferior of that person. Somehow they get grattification out of making others miserable, and if they succeed, it is a good days work. I know that most people in this arena are here out of love and respect for the art of fly fishing and tying. Otherwise, if they did not get that simple pleasure of just talking about it, they wouldnt be here. We wouldnt be here. Right? I feel that I have more of a love for the sport than a disgust for those who would try to spoil it for me. Therefore, I will be around for a while with this group and I will enjoy the information that is passed here so that I can become a better fly fisherman, more informed and better equipped to go after the end result, getting out on the water and using what I have learned to catch fish. This May will be my maiden voyage to Penns Creek. I will be going up with Frank as he and I have discussed. I will probably be the newest newbie there too, but that doesnt matter. I know that there will be some fine fisherman there who will be more than happy to take me under their wing and teach me what I came there for. It will be a total learning experience for me and I am very excited. I wish that we were in April making final preperations. They all come together in a brotherhood out of the goodness and simplicity of just getting back to the water. A migration, just as with the trout. This is the impression that I get from Frank. In final, we must all take the good with the bad, and make our own decisions if that is the type of person that we would want to hang with, or even talk with. Noone is any different than the next person, only in perception from the recipient of the criticism or the person who dishes it out. I know that I for one have my own opinions on certain people in here. Some are fishing Gods, and others are fishing Dogs. I know who I will be talking to. THis is all in my own opinion, I just felt, that as the newbie here, I would get my opinion in while I can. Fishing is a learning experience for me, however, life has been with me for much longer. Thank you both for posting what you did. I know that I feel much better about being here, especially when most of you know how I feel. Thank you very much, once again. Bravo! Respectfully submitted,
– Tight Lines, –Walt Fly Fishing NC & more… http://www.ezflyfish.com http://www.wilsoncreekoutfitters.com
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To George’s Post, As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. … Thank you both for posting what you did. …
Oh yeah, chiming in on a hypocritical screed from the village idiot is the perfect way to win friends and influence people around here. Looking forward to meeting you at Penns. You’ll find this place a lot more entertaining when you put some real faces with the screen names. The flyfishing info itself around here is unmatched anywhere I’ve ever seen, it’s a very rare case when a politely posed (and I mean that in the context of netiquette) query goes unanswered. The "entertainment" is admittedly an "acquired taste". Hang in there and wait til after Penns before going all judgmental on us. — Ken Fortenberry
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<whole buncha stuff snipped This May will be my maiden voyage to Penns Creek. I will be going up with Frank as he and I have discussed.
Fishreeler? Strange name. It’s easy to not get involved in flame wars – if somebody flames you, walk away. If somebody really pisses you off, killfile ‘em. Make sure Frank brings a warm sleeping bag this year, but tell him to leave the tutu at home. You’ll have fun at Penns… –Stan
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To George’s Post,
<newbie’s views snipped for brevity Respectfully submitted,
Dan, hang in with us. It not all pissin’ into to wind. This is a Jeckyl and Hyde kinda place, one moment its the Weakest Link on Jerry Springer and the next its linking arms with Barney the Purple Sauropod, singing Kum By Ya while we try to conjure the spirits of Lee Wulff and the Grand Dame. As I told you this a.m. Post some trip reports, ask a few salient questions and hang on for the ride. Don’t be afraid to get flamed. An insult is like a shot of scotch, it only affects you if you accept it. You will be welcome at the clave (hey, you don’t snore do you?). Oh, the things you will see; lawyers in horizontal striped longjohns, Pirates’ BVDs (best veiwed from a distance), flaming MBA’s juggling boxes (did I get that word order right?), druidic clavemeisters praying to the river Gods, old lech’es luring young mothers into the water for a back rub, naked coed volleyball teams and Amish strippers. You will also see some of the best fishermen and fisherwomen (I’ve just used up my PC quota for the year) in the world. Not only are they good at what they do, but they are great at teaching. The Pirate and Makela on nymphing, Littleton on fly selection, Petah on streamers, Fleischman on cigars, and I’ve even heard that one or two folks can teach you about scotch. By the way, the price for use of the spare bunk in my tent is a week’s supply of Yeungling. Good luck and welcome to ROFF. Frank The Younger (and better looking) Reid
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Lemme guess, Jeff. Was this over on RSG? I recall some real jewels over there. Wasn’t there some gal that made herself the self-appointed leader of the group. I may be wrong on that, but one things for sure. every circus has it’s own freaks.
Yes. But coincidentally there is also a George there who has also spammed unashamedly, and trashed the reputation of his "business" (such as it is) virtually beyond repair. He refused to see the wisdom of participating like a Walt, Bill, Brian, Al, etc. who all have enriched both their personal lives and their businesses, no doubt, at the same time. Rather, he chose the path of the fool (he "chose poorly" to quote "IJ and the Last Crusade"), and suffered equally in both areas of his life. It’s always fascinated me when someone chooses self-destruction. Lying, cheating or stealing for personal benefit I can understand, if not respect. These characters, though…. it’s like cheating yourself. It’s like inflicting self-abuse. It defies understanding.
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Lemme guess, Jeff. Was this over on RSG? I recall some real jewels over there. Wasn’t there some gal that made herself the self-appointed leader of the group. I may be wrong on that, but one things for sure. every circus has it’s own freaks.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In response to wayno, I submit the following post which I’ve copied verbatim from another newsgroup. This group had a similar problem for about a year, but following the show of support from this post, the pest finally cracked and left (or claimed to and appears to have.) I make no comment for or against the following idea, other than to say that it’s a tad geeky for my taste, and I did not publicly respond to it like many did, but I did follow the spirit and have not replied to or mentioned the pest since. It’s here merely as an FYI. However, feel to respond to the following as if it were a genuine ROFF post. end of my msg. — After some informal discussions in private email with a few regulars here, I have decided the time has come to request a full Usenet Ignore Penalty (UIP) against the most obvious and antagonistic trolls in [newsgroup]. This UIP is, of course, fully voluntary; each of you is encouraged to do your own thinking and follow your own conscience on this matter. However, I am convinced that a coordinated UIP is the surest way to restore a higher signal:noise ratio to this group. What do I mean by "ignore?" It goes beyond killfiling, or resisting the impulse to reply to outrageous or inflammatory statements. We must take the next steps, as well: We must not even mention these trolls in passing, in humor, or in contempt. We must not mention them *at all*. In a properly executed UIP, the recipients of that UIP essentially cease to exist, even as a memory, except possibly insofar as the data packets carrying their unread posts faintly rattle around the network. They cease to exist. The group merely goes on about its business as if the trolls never showed up. Who are the trolls in question? In the spirit of the UIP, I would prefer not to name names. However — and I speak just for myself here — I would be less than honest not to name [our pest] as the prime example and motivator behind this effort. Most of you are probably well acquainted with [their] favored techniques. They include the making of allusions to a hostile old guard, or "clique," in this group; repeated complaints about smear tactics being used by their adversaries; a simultaneous plea to "just talk [hobby]" while continuing to engage in inflammatory accusations unrelated to [hobby]; and quickly embracing certain unpopular (but not trollish) contributors to the group as a way of demonstrating "mob mentality" among those who dislike those contributors. Other trolls might have their own methods. My belief is that anyone who shows up making inflammatory statements with the apparent intent of drawing attention to himself is probably a troll. There are others, besides [our pest], who are on my personal list, but I won’t mention them here. The point is that I encourage you always to ignore trolls as completely as possible. (My intent, btw, is for this to be my last ever mention of [our pest], in [newsgroup].) Finally, to make this a coordinated effort, I would like for anyone who agrees to participate in this UIP to followup to this post, quote only the paragraph that follows, and write, "I agree," where others can clearly see it. (You may wish to add specific further comment after that, as I have.) This henceforth will be referred to as the "2002 RSG Pledge." If you agree to it, prepare to get grief from me if you break it! :) But remember: I respect that the degree to which you participate in this is entirely your decision. Some of you may prefer to silently participate without publicly embracing the pledge. I respect that choice, too. —cut here if you agree— "In the interest of preserving the usefulness of [newsgroup] as a forum for discussion of the game as well as a place for friends to affiliate in a collegial manner, I agree not to respond in [newsgroup] to any posts made seemingly solely to disrupt that atmosphere, regardless of their inflammatory or even defamatory nature. Further, I agree that those who habitually post in such a fashion are not worthy of any discussion or even mention in [newsgroup], and that therefore I will not make any specific mention of any of these individuals in any post to this newsgroup."
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To George’s Post, As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering. As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World. I started looking over this group at the suggestion of Frank Reid, whom I have known for a very short time, almost as long as I have been prowling ROFF. I came to this group to learn all that I could, to get some kind of direction, if you will. In fear of opening my mouth and asking a "stupid newbie" question, I kept to my own in fear of the embarrassment of not knowing as much as the next guy. I had thoughts about not getting involved at all with any of the group because the offensive ones would surely break in and criticize me for my lack of experience in the field. If you talk lures, baits, the other type of fishing with casting line, I could probably talk your ear off, but on this level, I am but a beginner. However, I thought that there are always those who would be out there that enjoy spoilling it for others who love the sport so much. To make themselves inferior of that person. Somehow they get grattification out of making others miserable, and if they succeed, it is a good days work. I know that most people in this arena are here out of love and respect for the art of fly fishing and tying. Otherwise, if they did not get that simple pleasure of just talking about it, they wouldnt be here. We wouldnt be here. Right? I feel that I have more of a love for the sport than a disgust for those who would try to spoil it for me. Therefore, I will be around for a while with this group and I will enjoy the information that is passed here so that I can become a better fly fisherman, more informed and better equipped to go after the end result, getting out on the water and using what I have learned to catch fish. This May will be my maiden voyage to Penns Creek. I will be going up with Frank as he and I have discussed. I will probably be the newest newbie there too, but that doesnt matter. I know that there will be some fine fisherman there who will be more than happy to take me under their wing and teach me what I came there for. It will be a total learning experience for me and I am very excited. I wish that we were in April making final preperations. They all come together in a brotherhood out of the goodness and simplicity of just getting back to the water. A migration, just as with the trout. This is the impression that I get from Frank. In final, we must all take the good with the bad, and make our own decisions if that is the type of person that we would want to hang with, or even talk with. Noone is any different than the next person, only in perception from the recipient of the criticism or the person who dishes it out. I know that I for one have my own opinions on certain people in here. Some are fishing Gods, and others are fishing Dogs. I know who I will be talking to. THis is all in my own opinion, I just felt, that as the newbie here, I would get my opinion in while I can. Fishing is a learning experience for me, however, life has been with me for much longer. Thank you both for posting what you did. I know that I feel much better about being here, especially when most of you know how I feel. Thank you very much, once again. Bravo! Respectfully submitted,
Response:
It simply takes discipline Peter
I’m on your side Pete. But for Pete’s sake, Pete, you know most of these guys smoke and drink and quit doing anything takes real discipline, which they don’t have . . . so that thesis goes right down the toilet. These guys just don’t have will power. Thing is Pete, I’m more addictive than cigarettes, alcohol, or even women. Life sucks, but it sure is better with you in it Pete. Hang tough padre, keep up the good ideas; George Please note the equal opprotunity response I returned to you? You’re welcome Pete.
Response:
So, similar problems in rec.sports.golf? Gee, I thought only ROFF had problems with trolls. Unfortunately, the last time this was tried here, it did reduce the flame wars, but didn’t deter the troll. He just acted like everybody loved him because the attacks went away. He probably increased his posting. That would make a good research project for the Deja miners.
I would expect that anyone who indulges in this behaviour and is subjected to this consequence, would escalate his/her trolling in an effort to break the discipline of the group. If the group cracks, things go back to normal. If group discipline holds, the posts *will* disappear. People who indulge in this behaviour abhor silence. It simply takes discipline and the willingness to stick with it over the long haul. If some people continue to indulge the troll for their personal enjoyment or out of a warped sense of fair play, they weaken the effect. Whether a diminished chorus would remain sufficient amusement for the troll, is difficult to say. 100% compliance is a practical impossibility and it is not needed. The group replies have to drop below the threshold of the individual’s need for attention. Once that need is not being met at a sufficient level, the individual will move one. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html
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Well, I choose to go to tools, options, send and uncheck the send immediately box. this allows me to respond vigorously, vent my feelings and get a load off my mind. then the next day I can re-read the stuff in my outbox and see if I still want to send it… Is something like that what you are talking about Jeff…..? john
Response:
So, similar problems in rec.sports.golf? Gee, I thought only ROFF had problems with trolls. Unfortunately, the last time this was tried here, it did reduce the flame wars, but didn’t deter the troll. He just acted like everybody loved him because the attacks went away. He probably increased his posting. That would make a good research project for the Deja miners.
Frankly Stan, with a little cooperation of mature debating and without having a need to throw rocks, it is easy to agree with you because you just said it better than I ever could. As I had posted, most sincerely to Jeff’s opinion, I’m only a barometer of Roff. I had explained so many times, talk nice to me and we and many others will talk nice to you. I am surprised about rec.sports.golf has the same problem because personally, I cannot suffer fools and I see you are the same because you are not the foolish kind nor are you in roff to prove anything, as I am. I just happen to be a fighter. I may not be tactful because that only works with gentlemen. I believe this will all tone down once roff realizes that darwinian isn’t a license to act like the wild west. I, like you enjoy learning new things and roff does have some mighty smart people in it. It also behooves many of my email determines how some college graduates who are now in the white collar trades can lose their cool so quickly in roff with each other and so often? For sake of good order, it would make no difference in roff if I left, which I did for four weeks recently. Roff STILL found others to feed upon and there is no denying this fact. Roff is like the snake that always has to bite someone because it is its nature. That old saying is in fact very true as it applies to this group in general. I have observed that on the side, there are men in roff which I regard as top drawer. That they must try and communicate in such a beehive of raging maniacs of false, insulted sensibilities (or any other excuse they deem fit) to exposes their frustrations, short of hitting on their wives or daughters, is frankly . . . so amazing! Roff, in so many ways is but the mirror of those who deal daily with bad bosses, supervisors, duel personalities in the social scheme of things that they come to roff to "dump on anyone" they can, just to get even. Frankly, what I don’t know about Roffian behavior and why people such as Ken Fortenberry, David LaCourse, and his ilk like Charlie Choc behave as they do is much greater than any of us know. Which means, they can’t help being the way they are! They are just pissed at the world in general. Frankly, I’m really a very funny guy in person and I have a great sense of humor Stan. Venting hostilities with humor would serve a good many in roff a lot better then swearing at each other. There is a knack at putting down anyone cleverly, if that is their need but it is my opinion it takes a better man to lift someone’s spirits rather than jumping on a Newbies just to show off one’s intellectual dominance. I have always said that when you put two people in a room, as in roff, one mind will always try and dominate the other. When it comes to two gentlemen who respect each other, that is seldom the case. They simply enjoy talking to each other. Roff has forgotten how to enjoy talking with each other. I notice the fondness in general of the folk in North Carolina have for each other and it is gentle jousting but it is intended in friendship. Outside that area, it doesn’t generally extend to the west coast, have you noticed? Those who play together get along better together has merit and that is why I’ve always thought a Conclave would be a good idea and they have proven to be just that. Now then, since I’m on a roll here, I should explain that the reason I have yet to want to attend any Conclave is I don’t believe in trying to be comfortable with anyone that in person, they smile at each other as if they never attacked each other then go home and be so vicious with each other when they are gone. This Jeckle/Hyde persona just doesn’t wash with me. It is two faced, it is cowardly, and it doesn’t allow my nature to trust such people away and/or in person. A man should be exactly as he seems here as he should be in person. Understanding, reason, giving allowances, benefit of the doubt, all go a long ways. Certain Roffians could care less how reasonable someone tries to be with them. They don’t want that. They want the chaos to continue and they will do anything to keep it going. Roff has some professional trollers who’s job it is to influence public opinion and I will leave it at that. They have that writing style that points to them like a flashing red light. They are somewhat knowledgeable but they are also totally predictable. Over a good period of time Stan, we all get a sense of where we want to be in Roff. I know there are several hundred fly fishing people who watch and read roff periodically and they leave in disgust. They leave and won’t post not because they did anything disgusting, but because Roff is its own best enemy. People want to visit friendly people, and when ROFF as a whole allows the type of personal demeaning behavior of people like Ken Fortenberry, or any of the others that talk the same way to others to continue, it simply is not the place they want to be. Roff is just poorer for it and it behooves me and many others how so many in roff are fearful of correcting what they think are their friends? Possibly, you don’t agree Stan, but you’ve written me in private before and your messages have always been on a high plain and enjoyable. Why can’t all the others talk to each other with the same respect and interest? Take me out of the picture, the banter never stops. It is time to stand up and be counted and I sure know I can stand up as reasonable as anyone else in roff. As they will say in Utah . . . "let the games begin." Just don’t change Stan, because I sure haven’t. ; ) Your pal, George Gehrke "the house pest"
Response:
So, similar problems in rec.sports.golf? Gee, I thought only ROFF had problems with trolls. Unfortunately, the last time this was tried here, it did reduce the flame wars, but didn’t deter the troll. He just acted like everybody loved him because the attacks went away. He probably increased his posting. That would make a good research project for the Deja miners.
Response:
In response to wayno, I submit the following post which I’ve copied verbatim from another newsgroup. This group had a similar problem for about a year, but following the show of support from this post, the pest finally cracked and left (or claimed to and appears to have.) I make no comment for or against the following idea, other than to say that it’s a tad geeky for my taste, and I did not publicly respond to it like many did, but I did follow the spirit and have not replied to or mentioned the pest since. It’s here merely as an FYI. However, feel to respond to the following as if it were a genuine ROFF post. end of my msg.
You know Jeff? This is so full on nonsense I can’t believe you actually believe this stuff? Case in point. Just recently, a gentleman asked a question about whether he should weight his nymphs or not. To the last man in ROFF, EVERYONE said yes. Okay. Fine and good. I Post in Roff my opinions and experiences gathered in over 50 years in fly fishing partner. I was the only one to say, "No, you don’t want to do that," and I proceeded to explain the "why of it." Seems, according to the responses to "George’s Post" how hard everyone tried to tear the years of experience I had with Nymphing, apart. Now then, do you care to deny this? I wrote a very intelligent, factual, informative piece in which I’d wager my life upon, everyone had received "food for thought," because they never heard this "stuff" before. Do you care to deny this also? Just because I am the mirror of ROFF, doesn’t mean I’m a Village Idiot at all. The idiots are those who stoop to lower levels because "they didn’t think about or know what I know" and it galls them to listen to a winner. Big dang deal. Ask me if I care? All you guys should realize I haven’t changed one bit since the first day I arrived to help out in Roff. What you all haven’t learned is that I’m my own man. You talk to me nasty and like the mirror I am, you will get back exactly the same in return. The worse you give the same about you receive. Haven’t any of you learned this yet? You talk nice to me and others and you get exactly the same in return. But you know what? A lot of you are too stupid to have figured this out in several years now. LaCourse goes back and pulls out a nasty piece of response but he doesn’t bring up the post it was responding to, does he. Roff’s whole history, is one of the Key Board Colt .45 The great equalizer. So if some of you will start reading this post with a little open mindedness, you might get insight not into me so much as much as you will about yourselves. Case in point: Every one of you go back and match YOUR POSTS to me. The good get good and serious responses. The Ugly get slapped right back in the face. Simple as that. Now then, I will admit to past "trolls, or baiting roff," which isn’t hard to do, but I haven’t done that for a while. When I do this, I put in this: ; ) cast . . . mend, etc. and this some of you know is my way of stirring some fun up, but I can’t remember ever starting something in a hateful or mean manner. Outside that, I’m the same "George the Fly Fisherman" you have always known. The problem with ROFF is never have I seen the truth exploited as well where "Familiarity Breeds Contempt." Some of you would do well to stop and read this carefully because I’m not pulling any punches with you now. I have had many well know fly fishermen, and all of you know I am close to many of them, who have said to me . . . "I have seen what a bunch of jerks are in Roff George and if I were to come there to help, sooner or later they would start the same things with me." Well, this is TRUE! Not all, those who have ever piled upon my back are the same ones that would do it to others, no matter what the famous fly fisherman was. Why? Because deep down, some of you bastards have an insatiable need to demean people who have made it up the ladder of success. I see the same thing happen yearly with the qualified gentry of fly fishing. One was in a bar having evening cocktails with me. Before long, our table was filled with fly fishermen horning in. They weren’t invited to join us, but it comes with the territory. So here I am, letting you guys in on what goes through our heads because we ARE human. We don’t say anything, and soon all the chairs are full, others are pulled up and then there is a standing crowd. It isn’t long, someone makes a wise crack to my well known friend, where upon, without comment . . . (not much) he gets up and quietly leave for his room. I do the same. Why is it, some of you guys simply are jerks? This isn’t MY opinion but it is the common thread I receive from all around this world about YOU GUYS! I didn’t say, "about me," but YOU GUYS! A bunch of you think you’re righteous because you have a common bond of being a bunch of junk yard dogs who dare anyone to come in here and invade your domain. This is nonsense. There is a lot of talent watching your every thread and I’m talking fly fishing talent that would bury Roff! BURY IT! They don’t come here because they hate your guts and that is the truth. However; these same people are writing me behind your back saying one common thing. "Hang in there George. Don’t quit. I love everything you write regarding fly fishing, etc." Now this is the truth. You Sludge Slugs of Roff can feed on your own hateful nature, fill your egos by trying to demean others and as I said before, you really are only demeaning yourselves. What you see with me is what you’re going to get. I’m not going anywhere gentlemen. I’m staying right here. If you don’t want to read my stuff, go party somewhere else because this is "MY SANDBOX" and your here talking to me because you’re invited. What I mean by that is, you talk nice to me and if I respond, that is the invite. That’s the way its going to be. Take it or leave it, and frankly I’d prefer if some of you simply leave it because you do nothing but waste good air. So you do have a choice. George Gehrke "Fly Fisherman" http://www.gink.com A Site full of bastards