Question:

First of all, do not attempt to attribute things to me that I did not say, by incorrect interpretation.  My reply to the original post read: "I wonder why somebody does not shoot you.  It would be an act of kindness to humanity." This is not open to interpretation. The statement is clear and complete, there is no ambiguity.

I agree that it’s clear.  An "act of kindness to humanity" is "good". You offered me useless, condescending,  and unsolicited advice…

On the contrary, I implied you had something good to offer when you post fly fishing information.  What you perceived as advice was actually a lighthearted way of saying I don’t approve of what you said.  As I’m sure you’d agree, there are times when something disagreeable is said in ROFF, and times when someone feels compelled to speak against it.  Perhaps I should have replaced the lighthearted, tongue-in-cheek tone of voice in the post with a simple "that was uncalled for and I don’t like it."  Then you couldn’t interpret it as condescending, or advice.  It was a statement of disapproval, nothing more.  …There are no "lines" here, which have not already long since been crossed, as people never tire of reiterating.

I think George clearly "crossed the line" when he wished Charlie Choc dead. If someone hadn’t flamed him for it first, I would have.  Let’s keep things in perspective.  We are talking about George Gerhke, not Timothy McVeigh. Timothy McVeigh deserves to die. This is an extremely  serious personal confrontation between myself, and another person. It is being carried out here because this is where it started, and because it is also of general interest.

If it is of general interest, then why would you tell me to keep out of it? If it’s personal, then why is it in public?

Response:

At this particular point I would like to take the opportunity of apologising to Jeff Connelly.  It was not my intention to be quite so personally insulting towards you. Upon reading the post again, I was indeed a little harsh on you, and there was no reason to jump on you like that. The sentiments expressed reflect my thoughts exactly, but it was unfair to direct them at you personally. I know you basically meant well. Please accept my apologies.

Accepted.  I apologize for sounding like a wise guy.  My intent wasn’t to be condescending, it was: "I think that kind of talk is out of line."  I’d say the same thing no matter who said it.  I think you and I basically feel the same way about things around here.

Response:

I think George clearly "crossed the line" when he wished Charlie Choc dead. If someone hadn’t flamed him for it first, I would have.  Let’s keep things in perspective.  We are talking about George Gerhke, not Timothy McVeigh. Timothy McVeigh deserves to die.

Jeez Connelly, what planet do you live on?  Get a grip man.  Wishing someone dead is not an uncommon thing.  It’s something everyone has longed for at one time or another, and it doesn’t make one evil, uncaring, or even noteworthy.  Each and every one of us deserves to die in someone’s estimation.  Big deal.  Let’s keep thing in perspective here; it’s not as if he wants to deprive him of the right to vote or something. Wolfgang

Response:

Jeez Connelly, what planet do you live on?  Get a grip man.  Wishing someone dead is not an uncommon thing.  It’s something everyone has longed for at one time or another, and it doesn’t make one evil, uncaring, or even noteworthy.  Each and every one of us deserves to die in someone’s estimation.  Big deal.  Let’s keep thing in perspective here; it’s not as if he wants to deprive him of the right to vote or something.

Wolfgang, why don’t you just shrivel up and die.  Hey, that felt good!  Can I have your fly tying stuff?

Response:

I only wonder if the FBI Agent that shot the little baby and the mother though the screen door AT RUBY RIDGE will be at Timothy McVeigh’s side holding the last needle clamp? My question is this.  What is the point?  If anyone thinks this execution is going to make people feel good, I don’t think so. I wouldn’t be surprised if McVeigh sneers or smiles at everyone before the State kills him.  But what is his point?  What is the message Timothy McVeigh has been trying to get across?  If anyone has an opinion? I wonder, in some strange way, if society may end up making him a martyr agaisn’t the politically incorrect?  Usually, there is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a crime for a crime? What a mess.  Exactly, what the hell is going on?  This man doesn’t care if they kill him.  He is going to his death, satisfied and convinced it was worth it all.  But?  WHAT was worth it?  What is his motive and will it pay off in the long run IF there IS a light at the end of the McVeigh tunnel/mystery? Strange? http://www.msnbc.com/news/557958.asp — George Gehrke   "All’s Fair With Fur or Feather" (gg) http://www.gink.com/chat  questions & answers site 7 PM Weekdays Pacific Time

Response:

I only wonder if the FBI Agent that shot the little baby and the mother though the screen door AT RUBY RIDGE will be at Timothy McVeigh’s side holding the last needle clamp?

You who have so much knowledge of things concerning flyfishing insist on posting not only off-topic stuff, but subjects you know will start a controversy with you right in the middle, I suspect right where you want to be. First off, this dipshit killed 168 innocent people, none who had a damned thing to do with Ruby Ridge, and he deserves to die.  That he apparently has a death wish (or wants to be seen as a martyr) is of no consequence in these proceedings. Secondly George, it is not the State of Indiana who is killing him, it is the US Government, the place of execution just happens to be in Terre Haute, IN. not that I give a crap where he dies. Frank Church

Response:

snipped to save room: Secondly George, it is not the State of Indiana who is killing him, it is the US Government, the place of execution just happens to be in Terre Haute, IN. not that I give a crap where he dies. Frank Church

I’m sure not many people do.  You’re right about it being a Federal Case.   Just forget it.  You’re right. — George Gehrke   "All’s Fair With Fur or Feather" (gg) http://www.gink.com/chat  questions & answers site 7 PM Weekdays Pacific Time

Response:

I wonder why somebody does not shoot you.  It would be an act of kindness to humanity. MC

Response:

I wonder why somebody does not shoot you.  It would be an act of kindness to humanity.

Slack off Mike before you become what you hate.  Find your way back to the fly fishing posts where you can do some good.  I’m sure your stretched blood vessels will thank you in the morning.

Response:

Slack off Mike before you become what you hate.  Find your way back to the fly fishing posts where you can do some good.  I’m sure your stretched blood vessels will thank you in the morning.

You just do not get it, do you? I must have done something really special at one time or another to deserve all the wonderful free advice I am getting lately. In order to become anything even remotely resembling Gehrke, to whom I assume you are referring, I would require, at the very least, a frontal lobotomy, a minimum forty years of practice at being the biggest arsehole extant, and my balls cut off. Even then, it is still doubtful whether I could ever be evil, dishonourable, or stupid enough to fill the bill. One last time, I do not hate Gehrke.  It is not possible for a sensible man to hate a thing. I did not hate the dog that bit my wife once, right outside our house, I simply destroyed it before it could bite her or anybody else again. I jumped on it and  broke its neck, although it also bit me twice in the arms. At least two ineffectual wankers who were present, including the owner of the beast, complained about that too, and attempted to prevent me from grabbing the animal in the first place. They can thank their lucky stars they did not cause me any real problems, or really get in my way, especially as my wife was still bleeding badly from the bite when the police arrived some time afterwards. All the stupid bastards could do was moan about the poor dog. Even the policemen were disgusted at them, especially after seeing the wound in my wife

Question:

Peter,     I don’t know the Ross Colorado, but I have several Gunnison and Cimarron reels from Ross, and the drags are anything but wimpy.  The thing I like most about them is that they will adjust from dead zero to enough to hold back a 20 pound salmon heading back to the salt. I’ve also controlled Pike up to 25 pounds with these reels, and I’ve never wanted the drag as tight as it can go. Chas

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Somebody had asked a while back about Gallatin reels but I can’t find a reference to the post anymore.  I was browsing some reel web sites yesterday and I found Gallatin’s.  It turns out that the Gallatin reels shown on the site, are rebadged Marados.  These are Korean made machined and anodized reels that sell for very reasonable prices here. I have a Marado with a click & pawl drag and I’m quite satisfied with it.  They’re robustly made and feature the proven Hardy Marquis type drag, a ball-bearing at the base of the spindle, and a nice wood handle.  I used to own a Ross Colorado CO-0 and a CO-3; I prefer the Marado (Gallatin) to the Ross (wimpy drag on the Ross.) So to whoever asked, goferit.  The Marado (Gallatin) are among the best machined reel deals on the market (assuming the Gallatin prices are as reasonable as the Canadian Marado. – $135.00 CDN for the smallest model.) Peter Visit The Streamer Page at

http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Peter,    I don’t know the Ross Colorado, but I have several Gunnison and Cimarron reels from Ross, and the drags are anything but wimpy.  The thing I like most about them is that they will adjust from dead zero to enough to hold back a 20 pound salmon heading back to the salt. I’ve also controlled Pike up to 25 pounds with these reels, and I’ve never wanted the drag as tight as it can go. Chas

The Colorado has only a click & pawl drag with a single pawl and a very wimpy spring.  It comes with two springs but even with the heavy one installed, there isn’t half the resistance of a typical Hardy Marquis.  It’s very easy to overspool them if you strip line out too quickly.  They are nicely made but Ross should have copied Hardy instead of the drag design they’ve used. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

The Colorado has only a click & pawl drag with a single pawl and a very

wimpy spring.    A very wimpy spring that doesn’t last very long.  I have a couple of Colorados, shame on me for being fooled twice. One failed me miserably at the Ennis clave, and the local fly shops didn’t have a spare spring for sale. The other failed on an extended backpacking trip, causing the fishing to be a frustrating experience. When they fail, the spring loses it’s "springiness" all of a sudden, and the reel becomes a free spooling birdsnest. If you have a Colorado that hasn’t failed yet, ALWAYS carry the extra spring, because you’ll need it one day.

Response:

The Colorado has only a click & pawl drag with a single pawl and a very wimpy spring.   A very wimpy spring that doesn’t last very long.  I have a couple of Colorados, shame on me for being fooled twice. One failed me miserably at the Ennis clave, and the local fly shops didn’t have a spare spring for sale. The other failed on an extended backpacking trip, causing the fishing to be a frustrating experience. When they fail, the spring loses it’s "springiness" all of a sudden, and the reel becomes a free spooling birdsnest. If you have a Colorado that hasn’t failed yet, ALWAYS carry the extra spring, because you’ll need it one day.

I called the Ross factory about the springs and their rep told me that they had built the Colorado this way to replicate the "traditional" feel of a click-drag reel.  IMHO, if they wanted to do that, they should have stuck to a traditional design. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Somebody had asked a while back about Gallatin reels but I can’t find a reference to the post anymore.  I was browsing some reel web sites yesterday and I found Gallatin’s.  It turns out that the Gallatin reels shown on the site, are rebadged Marados.  These are Korean made machined and anodized reels that sell for very reasonable prices here. I have a Marado with a click & pawl drag and I’m quite satisfied with it.  They’re robustly made and feature the proven Hardy Marquis type drag, a ball-bearing at the base of the spindle, and a nice wood handle.  I used to own a Ross Colorado CO-0 and a CO-3; I prefer the Marado (Gallatin) to the Ross (wimpy drag on the Ross.)   So to whoever asked, goferit.  The Marado (Gallatin) are among the best machined reel deals on the market (assuming the Gallatin prices are as reasonable as the Canadian Marado. – $135.00 CDN for the smallest model.) Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Question:

Http://www.miralex.com Price:                  Miralex Cream, 4 oz $120.00 US

Good grief!  And I just bought a 3.5-ounce tub of coal tar for US$10.77! – Dave W.

Response:

For $120.00 per 4 oz this stuff better come with company stock too

Response:

Not to mention my personal aide to apply it too LOLLOLOL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For $120.00 per 4 oz this stuff better come with company stock too

Response:

David, David,   did someone do something terrible to you once.  Very negative.

I’m only negative about unproven therapies which have advertising that is purposefully vague about the active ingredients.  The term ’snake oil’ comes to mind. But, maybe you have some points there.  Are you sure it looks like poison ivy?

No, but that’s why I prefaced my remark with "I’m no botanist." And hemlock might not be bad, after all the poison in a bee sting is supposed to help "cure" arthritis.

Is it arthritis now?  Last I heard of bee sting therapy it was for MS.  And shortly after going to an MS bee sting fundraiser, I read that a controlled study had been done which said the stings didn’t do a thing except send some people into shock.  Maybe someone. okay maybe me should ask the miralex people what is in the stuff using the allergy thing a reason for asking. good idea David.  I’ll let you know what happens.

You shouldn’t need a reason.  If they’re at all ethical, they’ll tell you.  Don’t you have containers of the stuff? Aren’t the ingredients right on the labels?!?! – Dave W.

Response:

I went to the website for this product,and let me tell you it AINT CHEAP,but then again,compared to some meds we’ve tried I suppose its Ok If yoy want to know more about it go here Http://www.miralex.com Heres the ingred:Doesnt really say,just says Plant substances Price:                  Miralex Cream, 4 oz $120.00 US                  Miralex Cream, 1/2 oz $29.99 US                  Miralex Shampoo, 4 oz $9.95 US                                                               * – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I first posted you guys about three weeks ago (my first post) about miralex cream and some other stuff. Mark, could you post pricing, size availability and ingredients? Thanks.

Response:

… The literature claims that the product is made from a natural plant substance.  I beleive it is a Canadian Doctor in Vancouver that is selling the stuff. Could be wrong though. (wouldn’t be the first time). Anyway, if you want more information they are on the net at www.miralex.com or toll free at 1-888-215-6449 toll free from the USA or Canada and if you are from outside North America call 1-604-731-7238.   What do you think?  Let me know.

I’m no botanist, but why was my first reaction to the plant pictured on the web site’s home page "hey, that’s poison ivy!"? Anyway, since you actually have some of this stuff, what is listed on the containers as ingredients?  I couldn’t find anything but the vague "natural plant substance" remarks on the web site.  People have allergies and other conditions that preclude them from using certain substances, and should be able to find out prior to losing money to "shipping and handling charges" that aren’t covered in money-back guarantees. Not only that, but everything in hemlock is a "natural plant substance," but you won’t find me using it to clear my psoriasis. And Miralex has got to have the *worst* testimonials section I’ve ever seen.  They don’t even try to make them sound more real and personal by putting initials and towns afterwards (for example, "This is great!" – S.D. from Walla Walla, WA), not that doing so makes testimonials any more valid of a "proof" that the stuff works.  And this one in particular sounds like they took their own marketing slogans and put them inside double-quotes:  ["The positive effects of Miralex were visible within 48 hours of the initial use. 90% of all lesions had disappeared within 7 days with only one recurrence from that group. Its lack of smell and color makes it less embarrassing to use." Thank you !!!]  I find it interesting the ‘thank you’ part didn’t make it inside the quotes, too. – Dave W.

Response:

The cream costs 29.95 US$  for a 1/2 oz jar and 120 US$ (i think) for a 4 oz jar.  The pamphlet is at home and I am leaving work to go to a fly fishing meeting, so thought I would message you now.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I first posted you guys about three weeks ago (my first post) about miralex cream and some other stuff. Mark, could you post pricing, size availability and ingredients? Thanks.

Response:

David, David,   did someone do something terrible to you once.  Very negative.  But, maybe you have some points there.  Are you sure it looks like poison ivy?  And hemlock might not be bad, after all the poison in a bee sting is supposed to help "cure" arthritis.   Maybe someone. okay maybe me should ask the miralex people what is in the stuff using the allergy thing a reason for asking. good idea David.  I’ll let you know what happens. Remember, "positive waves man, positive waves."  see ya – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … The literature claims that the product is made from a natural plant substance.  I beleive it is a Canadian Doctor in Vancouver that is selling the stuff. Could be wrong though. (wouldn’t be the first time). Anyway, if you want more information they are on the net at www.miralex.com or toll free at 1-888-215-6449 toll free from the USA or Canada and if you are from outside North America call 1-604-731-7238. What do you think?  Let me know. pictured on the web site’s home page "hey, that’s poison ivy!"? listed on the containers as ingredients?  I couldn’t find

"natural plant substance" remarks on  People have allergies and other conditions that preclude them from using certain substances,

 but everything in hemlock is a "natural plant substance," but you won’t find me using it to clear my psoriasis.

Dave W.

Response:

I first posted you guys about three weeks ago (my first post) about miralex cream and some other stuff.  

Mark, could you post pricing, size availability and ingredients? Thanks.

Response:

I first posted you guys about three weeks ago (my first post) about miralex cream and some other stuff.  Well, I was visiting a doctor, not a derm (don’t go to them anymore) and he noticed my p.  He said his brother in law had p and used this miralex cream and it cleared it up. Said he had a sample somewhere but could not find it.  He gave me some literature on it and said he would look for the sample. That it when I posted you.  About a week later he called and said he had found the sample.  I picked it up and started using it.  That was one week ago.  So far very good results.  Some of the smaller spots have disappeared. The largest area  extended from my ankle to my knee, completly encircled my leg.  It had several large scaly areas and the rest was red (as you all know) Well, after one week, no scales, no red. My leg has returned to white. Eureka!  The sample was a one ounce jar ( if you can call that small a sample a jar).  In the Vancouver Sun last week there was an add giving away free 1/2 ounce samples.  I immediately ordered one and had two friends order some for me also.  Naughty me!.  So, I how have 21/2 ounces of the stuff, except what I have used to date.  Also the patches on my elbows are gone. and the stubborn ones on my knuckles are going(three down and two to go)  The literature claims that the product is made from a natural plant substance.  I beleive it is a Canadian Doctor in Vancouver that is selling the stuff. Could be wrong though. (wouldn’t be the first time). Anyway, if you want more information they are on the net at www.miralex.com or toll free at 1-888-215-6449 toll free from the USA or Canada and if you are from outside North America call 1-604-731-7238.   What do you think?  Let me know.  I will keep you posted (I’ll try for weekly) on how the treatment is going.  Can’t wait for summer. By the way, I have been reading about you guys that are emabarressed to go outside with your p.  That used to bother me to, it still does, but about 10 years ago, I said "the hell with it".  I wear shorts and t-shirts all summer, go to the beach in a bathing suit, and it fat guys like me can wear a bathing suit, then you should not be concerned about your P.  Anyway, get over the embarrassment and just do it.  The extra sunshine and fresh air can only help your P anyway. So Long for now and  Keep your stick on the ice. Bye

Response:

Question:

Hi out there         I am going to Poland for three weeks in july this summer. I was hoping that somebody could give me some advise about fly fishing in the Bialystok area (North-east). I have tried my national newsgroup, but there was no response, so please help.     Yours sincerely — Stud. Scient Torben Meldgaard Skelagervej 48 DK-8200

Question:

Couple of friends and I are interested in doing some fly fishing (2 of us are trying to learn) in Ontario this spring.  I was told that there are lakes in Ontario with white fish (considered "rough" but with commercial value) that take Mayflies on the surface.  We naturally thought this would be an ideal way to learn to fly fish and catch some fish as well.  Does anyone know of such lakes?  Has anyone done this?  Is this a bizarre idea? Thank you. Kwan Soo

Response:

Couple of friends and I are interested in doing some fly fishing (2 of us are trying to learn) in Ontario this spring.  I was told that there are lakes in Ontario with white fish (considered "rough" but with commercial value) that take Mayflies on the surface.  We naturally thought this would be an ideal way to learn to fly fish and catch some fish as well.  Does anyone know of such lakes?  Has anyone done this?  Is this a bizarre idea? Thank you. Kwan Soo

        I’ve always found white fish to be bottom feeders, it would surprise me to see them come up for a dry. But, it could happen. I would think you would have much better luck with wet flies. Good luck.

Response:

Kwan Soo, Better look for a medium sized river that has some trout and a good hatch. This is much better and a lot easier than a lake and white fish. I am sure you will like this. Frans Bosman Amsterdam

Response:

White fish like Lake trout are deep water bottom feeders.  The only time they come in shallow and to the surface is early spring and late fall when the water is really cold.  You have to be here before turnover in the spring and after turnover in the fall.  The timing could be really tricky. Any of the Great lakes tributaries have them.  They come in to high current areas to feed and spawn much like walleye.  Buttermilk Falls on Boshkung lake in Ontario’s Haliburton Highlands has a great run Canadian newsgroup that will have more info.  I’ve never heard of flyfishing for them but where you find white fish you’ll probably find lake trout too.  I doubt you will have much success just because of how the feed.  I’d think a streamer on a sinking line would work better then flies.  I’ve never seen a whitefish rise before.  Your are allowed to keep 25 whitefish a day in Ontario and they average about 3 pounds and are excellent fighters.  They have the most paper thin mouths of any species of fish I’ve encountered and not losing the majority of the fish hooked is impossible.  In the summer whitefish are caught in 100 feet or deeper water and always on bottom.

Response:

Question:

Would anybody know any good places to go fly fishing in the western half of Maine.  If you could e-mail me any place at all it would be really appreciated.  Thanks…

 Hi Mark.  Bingham area is in Northwestern Maine.  We have many small remote ponds, terrific rivers including the Kennebec and the Dead Rivers, and Wyman Lake.  Check out www.pinegrovelodge.com!  Good luck fishing!

Response:

Hi Mike Hit the Rangeley Lakes Region. In fact give Ray Miller a shout at region and he’ll set you straight. One of his favorite streamers is a Blue Smelt casting streamer. He had me tie him a couple dozen last summer. http://www.kynd.com/~ronmcq/index.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Would anybody know any good places to go fly fishing in the western half of Maine.  If you could e-mail me any place at all it would be really appreciated.  Thanks…

Response:

Would anybody know any good places to go fly fishing in the western half of Maine.  If you could e-mail me any place at all it would be really appreciated.  Thanks…

Response:

Mark, There is some terrific fly fishing in western Maine. My top picks in priority order are: 1. Rapid River 2. Big Magalloway river above lake Parmachene 3. Kennebago River 4. Rangeley River 5. Cupsuptic river Toss in a tripto Quimby pond and you have a great trip. tight lines, Gerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Would anybody know any good places to go fly fishing in the western half of Maine.  If you could e-mail me any place at all it would be really appreciated.  Thanks…

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Question:

Howdy folks!!! What:           Free Presentation on Flyfishing the Arkansas River during the Mother’s Day Caddis Hatch Who:            Matt and Chris Brown of Browner’s Guide Service in Salida, Colorado. Where:          The Trout Unlimited/Wild Trout Chapter’s April                 meeting at the Best Western Landmark Inn,                         455 S. Colorado Blvd. (Colorado Blvd.                         & North Cherry Creek Drive) When:           Wednesday, April 22nd at 6:30 pm Come here Matt and Chris tell us how, when and where to catch the big ones. Then hang around to swap stories and tips with other local anglers. at 832-4600.

Response:

Greetings TU members from Wisconsin.  Just saying hi!  Our fishing opener starts tomorrow. Larry Seiler http://cwinc.net/larryseiler 1998 Wis Inland Trout Stamp Design Competition winner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy folks!!! What:      Free Presentation on Flyfishing the Arkansas River during the Mother’s Day Caddis Hatch Who:       Matt and Chris Brown of Browner’s Guide Service in Salida, Colorado. Where:     The Trout Unlimited/Wild Trout Chapter’s April                    meeting at the Best Western Landmark Inn,                    455 S. Colorado Blvd. (Colorado Blvd.                    & North Cherry Creek Drive) When:              Wednesday, April 22nd at 6:30 pm Come here Matt and Chris tell us how, when and where to catch the big ones. Then hang around to swap stories and tips with other local anglers. Lopez at 832-4600.

Response:

Question:

  Going in week , anyone know what’s happening on the Madison?   TIA   Harry

buncha people, to be sure. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

  Going in week , anyone know what’s happening on the Madison?   TIA   Harry buncha people, to be sure. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

  Hi Tim   No doubt , but I’m stuck.   Harry

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Going in week , anyone know what’s happening on the Madison?   TIA   Harry buncha people, to be sure. — TimW Halfordian Golfer   Hi Tim   No doubt , but I’m stuck.   Harry

What are the tibs of the madison ?  I bet some of the small ones are incredible… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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  Going in week , anyone know what’s happening on the Madison?   TIA   Harry

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  Going in week , anyone know what’s happening on the Madison?   TIA   Harry

A friend down in West tells me there are some salmonflies on the Madison now, and some good fishing in the park as well….It is getting hot…around 90 degrees today…perhaps a caddis in the evening?

Response:

  Going in week , anyone know what’s happening on the Madison?   TIA   Harry

Hi Harry As of last night it’s fishing great. A few golden stones and caddis are what I was using. Hoppers should be happing soon. Enjoy your trip. — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Catalog,Tips & Tricks, Fishing Reports, & NeverSink at: http://www.btsflyfishing.com

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Question:

: : or, a newbie is, in the words of Howell Raines in his epic "Fly fishing : : through the midlife crisis", an advocate of the "Redneck Way". : I might be wrong, though and I would like to hear opinions about the : book.  Does Raines know anything about fish?  

Rick- I have to confess that I did not like the book.  Actually struggled to make it to the end.  If I wanted to read a New York Times political editorial, I would have bought the newspaper.  I wasn’t expecting a book "about flyfishing", but I wasn’t looking for a political diatribe either. And it wasn’t just the political point of view; I thought he came across as a whiner. What finally got me the most, however, was the statement he makes in describing his one trip west to fish (actually, I suspect it was his only trip out of the Washington Beltway up to that point in time).  He says that the great rivers of Wyoming are the Gallatin, Madison and Yellowstone!  Then he says that the Snake is "glorious, but "becomes really great when it crosses into Idaho and becomes two rivers; the Idaho Snake and  the Henry’s Fork" (close paraphrase). Give me a break!  All these rivers (except the Snake and Henry’s Fork) are, of course, primarily Montana rivers.  Even though the Madison and Yellowstone originate in Yellowstone Park and the Gallatin may  have headwaters in Wyoming, no one ever says "Let’s go to Wyoming to fish the famous Gallatin and Madison, etc. "   Moreover, the Snake doesn’t go from Wyoming to Idaho to "become" anything.  I wrote to Raines and told him he needed a geography lesson.  He sent back a letter saying that he had gotten the information from a book that I have never heard of and have never been able to find in any flyshop or library.   BTW, Raines was in Montana fishing the Madison (that great Wyoming river) with his girlfriend a week or so ago.  I asked one of his guides whether he was a good flyfisherman and he said that is girlfriend is pretty good. Perhaps the name of his book should have been Flyfishing Through the Midlife Crisis With a New Girlfriend. If you look at the book as the story of a boy growing up and his relationship with his father, and if Raines had kept it at that without trying to make it a political statement, the book might have been worth reading (overlooking the geographical gaffs). That’s my opinion, but I have talked to others (and read views expressed on this newsgroup from folks) who liked the book.  That’s one of the great things about books, everyone reads them and sees something different. Lyman Hughes Ennis, MT Dallas, TX

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It was obvious Raines had limited experience on the water and that he was cashing in on the post "A River Runs Through It" period.  It didn’t seem like I was going to get much from the book. I might be wrong, though and I would like to hear opinions about the book.  Does Raines know anything about fish?   —

Sure, Raines rode the wave on ARRTI, and about every guide, rod company, line company, magazine publisher, fly fishing "celebrity", and clothing manufacturer in the business.  Does he know anything about fish?  Well, methinks he does!  Maybe not as much as some people, but, the book is about a man learning to fly fish as he goes through his mid-life crisis. He doesn’t have to know alot.  He isn’t trying to teach any fly fishing tactics, or how to present a drag free drift.  For my money, it is a lot better than anything Gierach has done, and I have read all of his books. I think his perspective as fly fishing as an important hobby, rather than the way he makes his living is refreshing in a world of all too many professional fishermen. It is a good book, but it leans heavily on politics.  If you are a conservative, you might not like to read about a liberal reporters opinions on the Reagan-Bush years. But it also weaves fish stories into every facet of life, much as we do in this group Daren C. Valentine

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: : or, a newbie is, in the words of Howell Raines in his epic "Fly fishing : : through the midlife crisis", an advocate of the "Redneck Way". : I might be wrong, though and I would like to hear opinions about the : book.  Does Raines know anything about fish?   I read the book, and liked it…mostly because I was raised in the "Redneck Way".  I doubt that Raines knows much about fly fishing.  He was raised to catch and kill as many fish as possible, using big hooks, strong line, stiff bait casting rods, and things like worms and chicken livers.  So was I.  That’s the "Redneck Way". He took up fly fishing and learned that good company, beautiful water, and the quiet elegance of our sport is more important than catching fish.  These things help you be at peace with the world, rather than in competition with it, which is important when facing the reality of our individual mortality.  "Keeping the black dog (death) at bay" is how he phrased it. I doubt that he knew much about fly fishing…other than how it helped him face death.  But that’s something, isn’t it? — Laboratory for Applied Logic    Dept. of Computer Science University of Idaho             www: http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~foster

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Per the previous discussions, many of us still believe Cutts are for 1) Newbies who don’t know how to fish well 2) Guides, who can easily give their clients a 50 fish day,  or 3) those too lazy or disinterested to learn Entomology and like sz. 10 attractor flies. Cutts have their place, but generally, when other species are available, not with serious fly fisherman who like the challenge Cutts do not offer.

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: Per the previous discussions, many of us still believe Cutts are for 1) : Newbies who don’t know how to fish well 2) Guides, who can easily give : their clients a 50 fish day,  or 3) those too lazy or disinterested to : learn Entomology and like sz. 10 attractor flies. Cutts have their place, : but generally, when other species are available, not with serious fly : fisherman who like the challenge Cutts do not offer. Well, this is a provocative post.  Please explain to me how you avoid those "pesky" cutthroats.  Perhaps move to a less clean river where they have died off? I disagree with you.  A large fish is a large fish.  All large fish have survived more than a year or two and are frequently the brightest in that stretch of the river.  Admittedly, a bright trout is barely smart enough to host a popular television talk show, but it is a competitive world in the stream and the craftier fish eat better than the Rikki Lakes of the river. I fish often in a couple of rivers that have mixed cutt and bow populations.  I’ve never noticed that the bows could be found in the better locations.  In fact, it is usually the big cutts that are in the best locations and occasionally I find a bow.  My experience is that bows seem to do a lot more bottom hunting than surface activity.  I prefer surface activity. I would love to hear your reasons behind your opinions.  And I would be happy to host you on a river so you could show me some of the fine points of selective fishing and entomology.  I’ll tell you what.  I’ll buy you a beer for every bow you catch and you buy me a beer for every cutt you catch.  Deal? Rick — T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.  

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Rick:  I don’t know if John is going to take you up or not, but sure sounds good to me.  However, at one beer per fish, the fishing better be slow or I won’t make it for long.  Be fun trying though. Seriously, on the cutthroat discussion.  Where cutts are native, they’re a mighty important fish to me.  I don’t know whether they’re the smartest fish in the world — I’ve had mixed experiences with them as I’ve had with every other species of trout.  But they are native to many waters and beautiful fish.  With over a half-century under my belt, I’m not exactly a newbie and certainly not a guide — at least a professional one.   Still feel like a newbie, though — at least on my better days.  And I sure don’t want to lose that feeling — ever. Dick Hubbard

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The Sea-Run Cutts that I have been catching will stand up to any rainbow of the same size.  I caught about a 14 incher last night that jump more than once to show us his size and made my reel scream like every fly-fisherman wants.  Hearing that reel go tells me that these Cutthroat where a blast.

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I’ve been hesitant to weigh in on this, since I’m a newbie and fish primarilly in wild cutt territory.  But… I caught my first real (ie non-trivial) cutt a few weeks ago: 18 inches and fat.  I knew it was a big fish from the moment it took the fly.  But it didn’t FIGHT.  It just PULLED a while, then turned over and laid there.  I was expected a second rush after he turned over, but it never came.  The fish drifted aimlessly into the net. I was disappointed. On the other hand, it was a beautiful fish, caught in a beautiful river, on a fly I tied myself, on a rod I built myself.  So it wasn’t a total loss. — Laboratory for Applied Logic    Dept. of Computer Science University of Idaho             www: http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~foster

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: I’ve been hesitant to weigh in on this, since I’m a newbie and fish : primarilly in wild cutt territory.  But… : On the other hand, it was a beautiful fish, caught in a beautiful river, : on a fly I tied myself, on a rod I built myself.  So it wasn’t a total : loss. This is a newbie?  He ties his own flies, builds his own rods, and catches 18+ inch fish.  What constitutes a newbie? : — : Laboratory for Applied Logic  Dept. of Computer Science : University of Idaho           www: http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~foster Charley

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I was disappointed. — Laboratory for Applied Logic        Dept. of Computer Science University of Idaho         www: http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~foster

I too am a little hesitant to wade into this discussion.  (The pun was intended.) First, James I can’t believe that you would complain about catching an 18" fish.  I wish I had your problems. Second, I lived in West Yellowstone for 4 years.  I used to visit the Park regularly and have fished a number of the rivers and lakes throughout.  I have fished at times where the Yellowstone Cutthroat could be caught on just about anything.  It’s as if the fish just wanted to eat and didn’t care what type of bug it was eating.  Then there have been even more times when the fish would not even look at a fly.  I’d empty my box trying to find that magic pattern.  So, to those of you who have the 40 fish days on Slough Creek, count your lucky stars and be thankful.  Because those days don’t come often enough. -Bill IBM, Boulder, CO

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | : I’ve been hesitant to weigh in on this, since I’m a newbie and fish | : primarilly in wild cutt territory.  But… | | : On the other hand, it was a beautiful fish, caught in a beautiful river, | : on a fly I tied myself, on a rod I built myself.  So it wasn’t a total | : loss. | | This is a newbie?  He ties his own flies, builds his own rods, and | catches 18+ inch fish.  What constitutes a newbie? | | Charley    I also consider myself to be a "Newbie", even though I tie my own flies, built my own rod, and have landed an 18" trout.  My flies are very nice, my rod is flawless, but my technique and knowledge are incomplete.  Many people are good craftsmen (women too), and get lucky with the trout on occasion, but just aren’t experts yet.   I suppose though, for the sake of general discussion, that "Newbies" should be defined as: Those who are beginning to learn how to flyfish, have not yet built or tied any equipment, and have never landed anything bigger than their foot.

"Newbies" are anybody who realizes that they still have something to learn about flyfishing! Tim

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Those who are beginning to learn how to flyfish, have not yet built or tied any equipment, and have never landed anything bigger than their foot.

I’m a newbie, having converted to FF in both sweet and salt water in the past year, but I *have* caught something bigger than my foot. (Striped bass are bigger than trout, what can I say?).

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Weighing back in…… I consider a newbie anyone who requires context before data. Put another way, if I can tell someone to use a PT nymph with a twist retrieve and let it go at that, this is not a newbie. When I get a puzzled expression and have to add, "A beadhead PT is a brown nymph with a gold beadhead and a twist retrieve is bringing it back with just a hand twist– a few inches at a time", that’s a newbie. When a newbie starts feeling comfortable with the terminology and contributes his/her own observations to the discussion, they have graduated to ??.  Something between expert or master and newbie.                       Why does it matter?  Well, it doesn’t.  Except, if I know that a person isn’t a newbie, I can dump a lot more information in a brief encounter streamside, because I don’t have to be care- full to get into enough detail.  Course, regional knowledge is the achilles heal of this argument.  I’ve met many anglers new to an area I’m familiar with who require detail on the geography even though they are approaching expert on the culture of fly fishing. God, I love a purely philosophical argument every now and then! Charley

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: | : I’ve been hesitant to weigh in on this, since I’m a newbie … : | This is a newbie?  He ties his own flies, builds his own rods, and : | catches 18+ inch fish.  What constitutes a newbie? :   I suppose though, for the sake of general discussion, that "Newbies" should : be defined as: Those who are beginning to learn how to flyfish, have not yet : built or tied any equipment, and have never landed anything bigger than their : foot. Fair question.  Here’s what I had in mind:  I’ve been fishing for less than two years, and have been on the stream for less than 30 days total (only four days on a GOOD stream).  Unfortunately, I’m kinda neurotic. So I jumped into the sport with both feet: tied leaders, tied flies, and built a rod.   At least I didn’t quit my job and leave my wife and kids to fish every day…though the thought has crossed my mind. — Laboratory for Applied Logic    Dept. of Computer Science University of Idaho             www: http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~foster

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Another thought… A "newbie" is a nymphal fisherman, hiding under a rock fully aware that he or she is ugly as sin an likely to be eaten up if he or she strays too far into the current of modern fly fishing (a "PT"??? what the hell’s that???) Eventually, we emerge and shed our clumsy shucks—those bad habits we accumulated in our solitude.  It’s kinda painful, but we make a public display of our pretty new stuff right there on the surface (wanna see my rod?) for all to see. But we’re still a little wet (behind the ears), so we need a little time to dry off. Then we gracefully transform into something magnificent, rising in the light with beauty and grace (it takes my breath away to see Doug Swisher approach, cast to, and land a big rainbow on a video tape…with I could do that). We acheive union with the stream, the trout, and the insects for a brief time…teaching some others what we know if we’re fortunate.  Then, after what seems only a day, we die. — Laboratory for Applied Logic    Dept. of Computer Science University of Idaho             www: http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~foster

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Another thought…gawd this is a rich thread… A newbie is someone who casts a big royal coachman or wooly worm into the water…anywhere…while watching the line and rod: "Concentrate! Wait for the backcast to straighten out!  Damn, need to cast a little farther!  Quick, re-cast that sucker!" A more eperienced person is more careful with fly and presentation: "Let’s see, a puddle cast with a PMD just behind that big rock should do the trick.  There it goes!" The expert: "What a lovely day.  I’ll catch THAT big fish over there, then THAT one.  This fly seems about right.  There."  All the while instictively stalking the fish from just the right place, eyes on the fish, with a plan for fishing the whole pool or run unconciously ready to execute. — Laboratory for Applied Logic    Dept. of Computer Science University of Idaho             www: http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~foster

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Pondering the "NEWBIE" While "Newbies" can, and often do ask frustrating questions, use incorrect terminology, and make blunders that "experts" have long forgotten as being building blocks in their own education . . .  these "Newbies" have a zest, a fresh outlook, and a keen wonder about their endeavor that I have found is sometimes missing in the outlook of "so-called experts." I have a friend and mentor who is a retired doctor, now one of the best fly-tiers and guides in the surrounding five state region. Doc is one of those rare "experts" who gets more excited by my accomplishments than in his own personal fishing achievements. It is a delight to be with him on a stream, and see his excitement for me, as if he was the one who had just stalked that rising rainbow and landed him. Yes, I’m a "Newbie," and I believe that Doc gets a real kick out of looking at fly fishing thru my eyes . . . maybe he’s reliving some of those old "first time" accomplishments. I’m old enough now to know that being a "Newbie" is nothing to be ashamed of, in fact, it’s a treat to be constantly enjoying the newness of each first time successful endeavor. I haven’t felt this excited about any hobby or sport . . . well, I can’t remember how long its been. So, I for one relish this "Newbiness"! It’s exhilirating! And to have an "Expert" like Doc to share this "newness" with makes it twice as much fun. "Newbies Forever!" Bob Vorel

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  | : I’ve been hesitant to weigh in on this, since I’m a newbie and fish  | : primarilly in wild cutt territory.  But…  |  | : On the other hand, it was a beautiful fish, caught in a beautiful river,  | : on a fly I tied myself, on a rod I built myself.  So it wasn’t a total  | : loss.  |  | This is a newbie?  He ties his own flies, builds his own rods, and  | catches 18+ inch fish.  What constitutes a newbie?  |  | Charley     I also consider myself to be a "Newbie", even though I tie my own flies,  built my own rod, and have landed an 18" trout.  My flies are very nice, my  rod is flawless, but my technique and knowledge are incomplete.  Many people  are good craftsmen (women too), and get lucky with the trout on occasion, but  just aren’t experts yet.    I suppose though, for the sake of general discussion, that "Newbies" should  be defined as: Those who are beginning to learn how to flyfish, have not yet  built or tied any equipment, and have never landed anything bigger than their  foot.    Therefore, Mr.Foster and I should consider ourselves to have graduated from  Flyfishing school.  Now if we can just get a job…  Erik Sutton  Gresham, Oregon

A" newbie" is a person that flyfishes that thinks he has to use a 500$ graphite rod,Orvis everything, a 1,000$ vise to tye, and a Jeep.They also tend to think that knowledgable anglers and flyfishing shop staff and/or guides owe them their lifelong earned knowledge for free. A "beginning angler" is a person that takes the time to learn and trys to help their more experienced peers  any way he can to try to learn about this resource.He cares about the rivers and lakes.He cares about the fish and their habitat.This is a philosophy of a way of life for him.He respects his teachers even after he has perhaps exceeded their ability,if only because he wouldn’t have had they not taught them. I learned to tye under the tuteledge of a great commercial tyer/guide,I still consider myself his student- –after 20 years–and give him all the respect he deserves even though we don’t see eye to eye on a great many issues anymore.I still consider him a great spirit just for having gave me this great gift. We go 2,3 ,or 4 years without seeing one another even though we live miles apart but when we do its almost like close blood relatives caring for each other.I would do anything for that man if he needed to help. This is what it seems a great many "newbies"have forgotten or don’t understand.That this is a philosophy of life, not a meat chasing quest for the biggest fish or the most fish.Or I am better than you. I can no longer tye or fish due to injuries sustained in Alaska,and it occurs to me that a great many of you "flyfisherman" today can’t either.Oh sure, you can cast and you can be on the river.But your not fishing,your competing with your demons and your egos and other people just like you.  "That mans name"is Bob Sheirholtz.                           very truly, Davy

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A newbie as a person who still thinks that Flyfishing is about catching fish. or, a newbie is, in the words of Howell Raines in his epic "Fly fishing through the midlife crisis", an advocate of the "Redneck Way". Mike Ray

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: A newbie as a person who still thinks that Flyfishing is about catching : fish. I think you lost me here.  If fishing is not about catching fish…what the hell is it about?  Granted, it is great to be smack dab in the middle of a beautiful place…but fishing is much more fun when one catches fish.  Isn’t it? : or, a newbie is, in the words of Howell Raines in his epic "Fly fishing : through the midlife crisis", an advocate of the "Redneck Way". OK, now I got you.  You are under the influence of this fishing "master".  I admit I have not read his book, but for good reason.  I watched an hour of television when Charlie Rose, who can pull information from people as easily as Powerbait falls from a bass fishermans pocket, interviewed Raines and tried to talk fishing.  It was obvious Raines had limited experience on the water and that he was cashing in on the post "A River Runs Through It" period.  It didn’t seem like I was going to get much from the book. I might be wrong, though and I would like to hear opinions about the book.  Does Raines know anything about fish?   — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.

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and have never landed anything bigger than their foot.< I think this is unfair…..  I hve been flyfishing for 30 years, and I seldom catch trout as large as my foot (which is only an 11-D, BTW).  This is because I live in PA, and fish wild trout waters where there are only one or two fish the size of my foot in the entire watershed…..  I have caught many pale stockies as big as both my feet, however…..:)

I must concur, and let me add that the best fishing I have ever done was in a stream 6 to 8 feet wide.  The most beautiful Cutthroats and no people.  Couldn’t have asked for a better day. And I would say I could be happy never catching fish bigger than my foot if all my days could be on pristine streams. -Eric

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"Newbies" are anybody who realizes that they still have something to learn about flyfishing! Tim

  I guess that covers just about everybody

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; Another thought…gawd this is a rich thread… ; ; A newbie is someone who casts a big royal coachman or wooly worm into ; the water…anywhere…while watching the line and rod: "Concentrate! ; Wait for the backcast to straighten out!  Damn, need to cast a little ; farther!  Quick, re-cast that sucker!" ; ; A more eperienced person is more careful with fly and presentation: ; "Let’s see, a puddle cast with a PMD just behind that big rock should do ; the trick.  There it goes!" ; ; The expert: "What a lovely day.  I’ll catch THAT big fish over there, ; then THAT one.  This fly seems about right.  There."  All the while ; instictively stalking the fish from just the right place, eyes on the ; fish, with a plan for fishing the whole pool or run unconciously ready ; to execute. The master:  "What a lovely day." — archer — Archer Sully Stop Casting Porosity

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: A "newbie" is a nymphal fisherman, hiding under a rock fully aware that : he or she is ugly as sin an likely to be eaten up if he or she strays : too far into the current of modern fly fishing (a "PT"??? what the : hell’s that???) [snip] Sooo… I guess you are saying you are like a San Juan Worm?   Nothing but an orange piece of fluff… — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.

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"Newbies" are anybody who realizes that they still have something to learn about flyfishing! Tim

 "What I do know is that I don’t know…."    Every fly I tie, every cast I make, every fish I hook and every landing I perform is a new and different experience from the previous. Isn’t it experience (learning) that provides us with knowledge? If I ever reach the point of all knowing, my interest will fade. God take me when that happens. Have fun TEM

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Question:

I’m curious,  are you refering to the Green River not in Wyoming, but in Utah.  The section below Flaming Gorge dam.  I know the Green has its origins in Wyoming, but the best section to fish is in Utah. If so, I may be able to help. — -Bill

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Hi everybody! Can anybody tell me what’s the best place at Green River, Wyoming to start fly-fishing at? What kind of fly patterns would you suggest there? What’s the best time of year to go there fishing? Any other hints about that place? Thanks a lot for your help! Claudine — Student at University of Zurich, Department of Computer Science

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