Question:

Try Hookhack.com 4beader

Response:

I have some roe trout if your interested sorry don’t know any  web sites on the subject but I sure with the right "key words" must be a few thousand out there some where.  I have some formulas from some very old books if your interested. Good luck — Fly fishing is the most fun you can have … standing up.   Greg

Response:

Question:

I rented a felluca for day sailing. I think that it would be little trouble to get one for a fair cruise.

Excellent idea, and definitely in my style. —      Mark Anderson – DBA Riparia Resources    www.riparia.org Medical info for cruisers and woodworkers.  Boatbuilding plans. Artistic photography       Landscapes – Nautical and marine – Abstracts, extracts and themes.

Response:

I’m curious as to whether it is practical to cruise up and down the Nile R. with a private yacht. Legalities and other hassles: Practical draft limitations: Safety and pleasurability of your reception by the Egyptians: Any other information that may be of interest: —      Mark Anderson – DBA Riparia Resources    www.riparia.org

I rented a felluca for day sailing. I think that it would be little trouble to get one for a fair cruise. It would avoid all the problems of a rich-looking yacht. I’d not worry too much about piracy or big-deal problems. It’s petty theft that gets you. — Bernard W. Joseph     http://www.appliedgrammar.com   "Speak to us of Emailia."    James Joyce    FINNEGANS WAKE

Response:

Last month I sailed a felucca from Aswan to Edfu, so based on limited knowledge of this stretch of water:

Thanks Tony, yours was the kind of info I was looking for.  As to the political climate, those responses are taken in mind, and as expected. For my own purposes, however, the time I might be taking this cruise will be at least several years into the future, so I’ll hope that the political situation might change by then.  In any event, it’ll be taken into account whenever, and probably I’d get the opinion of the state dept. first. —      Mark Anderson – DBA Riparia Resources    www.riparia.org Medical info for cruisers and woodworkers.  Boatbuilding plans. Artistic photography       Landscapes – Nautical and marine – Abstracts, extracts and themes.

Response:

A rich American cruising his flashy yacht in the Middle East…… Now THERE’s a TARGET of OPPORTUNITY for you. Hated by millions of Arabs because of our undying support for the Israeli War Machine…..tearing up Palestinians. Can you answer your own question?  PLEASE DON’T!

When I was in Egypt a quite few years ago (just after Egypt and Israel "normalized" relations) the average Egyptian on the street preferred Israeli money to Egyptian money for the small cash purchases.  And that was after a 10 to 1 devaluation of Israeli money. Things certainly may have changed in the past 20 years but back then they were very friendly to American tourists.  The only thing that had me feeling unsafe was the way they drive, especially in and around Cairo.  You probably heard about driving in Italy.  Cairo is much worse. Steve

Response:

Oh, I think the average Egyptian is still "American friendly".  Most Arabs I ever met when I lived there were very pro-American and simply LOVED Yankee dollars.  However, times have changed, not the people. This Al Queda network is only one of many anti-American networks with supporters across a wide spectrum of Arab countries.  Bombs are going off almost every day, now. Flashing the big yacht in their faces, and all the cash that goes along with it, attracts attention.  Word is passed to the network from the supporters who will never see their own cars, much less a flashy yacht.  The damned thing is a great "target" and would be a prize on any terrorist’s list.  Egypt is eat up with anti-Israeli, and therefore anti-American, groups. It just seems stupid to put the family, the boat and his personal safety in harm’s way flashing that yacht in their faces after 9/11. Middle East changed that day.  Until the "brothers" in Afghanistan get the word spread out that America is NOT the enemy, and saved them from the gangsters who were killing the country, I’d pick a nice, quiet island someplace for the flashy yacht full of Yankees.  With so MANY beautiful places on the planet, why take the chance? Larry We fail, miserably, to see how hated we are because of our support for Israel, no matter who they kill, no matter what they do.  You have to live in an Arab country to really feel it.

Response:

Yotties are not tourists – we aren’t treated as tourists in most places, don’t use the same visas, don’t follow the same rules, processes, etc.  Most countries treat yotties same as commercial ships, fishing vessels, etc – crew lists, clearances, paid for visas, etc   They know we don’t stay in hotels, buy loads of tourist crap, spend big in restaurants, etc.  We’re not "respected" and "protected" in the same way at all.  We aren’t part of that industry. On Egypt – many cruising friends have transited the Suez and universally agreed (much to my disappointment) that Egypt is a miserable shithole of a country to cruise.  Big theft and bribe problems. They get through there as quickly as possible with as short and few stops as necessary. It’s much easier and safe to park the boat in Cypress in a marina and fly in/out of Egypt – as a respected and protected tourist. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [...] It just seems stupid to put the family, the boat and his personal safety in harm’s way flashing that yacht in their faces after 9/11. Middle East changed that day.  Until the "brothers" in Afghanistan get the word spread out that America is NOT the enemy, and saved them from the gangsters who were killing the country, I’d pick a nice, quiet island someplace for the flashy yacht full of Yankees.  With so MANY beautiful places on the planet, why take the chance? Personally, I don’t think it would be all that much of a chance.  At least compared to many other beautiful places people cruise to.  Egypt definitely had a problem a while ago with terrorists attacking visitors.  But from what I’ve heard, they cracked down on them pretty hard.  A large part of their economy is based on tourism, so there’s a big incentive to keep tourists safe. Larry We fail, miserably, to see how hated we are because of our support for Israel, no matter who they kill, no matter what they do.  You have to live in an Arab country to really feel it. That’s just not true for the average person you meet in many Arab countries, including Egypt, especially Egypt. Steve

Response:

[...] It just seems stupid to put the family, the boat and his personal safety in harm’s way flashing that yacht in their faces after 9/11. Middle East changed that day.  Until the "brothers" in Afghanistan get the word spread out that America is NOT the enemy, and saved them from the gangsters who were killing the country, I’d pick a nice, quiet island someplace for the flashy yacht full of Yankees.  With so MANY beautiful places on the planet, why take the chance?

Personally, I don’t think it would be all that much of a chance.  At least compared to many other beautiful places people cruise to.  Egypt definitely had a problem a while ago with terrorists attacking visitors.  But from what I’ve heard, they cracked down on them pretty hard.  A large part of their economy is based on tourism, so there’s a big incentive to keep tourists safe. Larry We fail, miserably, to see how hated we are because of our support for Israel, no matter who they kill, no matter what they do.  You have to live in an Arab country to really feel it.

That’s just not true for the average person you meet in many Arab countries, including Egypt, especially Egypt. Steve

Response:

Last month I sailed a felucca from Aswan to Edfu, so based on limited knowledge of this stretch of water: Draft limitation: most of the cruise boats had a draft of 4 feet or 4′ 6".  Our felucca had a centre board so that we could pull into the bank. Buoyage: Almost non existent.  There are shallows and a few rocks. Local knowledge desirable. Wind:  Prevailing wind in this Southern stretch is Northerly (i.e. against the stream) so one can tack North with the stream or run South against it. Height:  The bridge North of Aswan is not yet complete – awaiting the final span.  When finished this would restrict mast height to that of the big cruise boats (30 – 40 feet at a guess). Formalities: I don’t know details, but almost certainly Yes.  Our felucca captain had to advise the police of our trip. Pleasure:  Definitely!  We swam in the river (no crocs below the High Dam), saw water buffalo, ibises etc.  We found people universally friendly, although a strong feeling that America would do anything to support Israel to the detriment of Arab states. Tony Boas Sadler 34 – Bold Warrior – Southampton, UK.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m curious as to whether it is practical to cruise up and down the Nile R. with a private yacht. Legalities and other hassles: Practical draft limitations: Safety and pleasurability of your reception by the Egyptians: Any other information that may be of interest: —      Mark Anderson – DBA Riparia Resources    www.riparia.org Medical info for cruisers and woodworkers.  Boatbuilding plans. Artistic photography       Landscapes – Nautical and marine – Abstracts, extracts and

themes.

Response:

Irving Johnson did his "TwiLight" cruise through the canals of Europe and up the Nile just before the Aswan dam was complete. I have the video here and it looks like a nice cruise. His boat was about 50 ft and moderate draft (not over 5 ft or he wouldn’t have been able to do the canals of Europe). I went to Egypt for a visit back in the mid 80s while I was working in Saudi Arabia. There was no problem as long as you didn’t have any Israeli stamps in you passport. I would imagine the climate is rather hostle now-a-days. I’d be more worried about stopping in Alexandria or transiting the Red Sea and it wouldn’t be the Egyptions that i would be afraid of. My opinion and experience, FWIW. Steve s/v Good Intentions

Response:

A rich American cruising his flashy yacht in the Middle East…… Now THERE’s a TARGET of OPPORTUNITY for you. Hated by millions of Arabs because of our undying support for the Israeli War Machine…..tearing up Palestinians. Can you answer your own question?  PLEASE DON’T! larry I’d love to back to the Middle East where I lived and worked in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Bahrain.  But, not now.  Not after 9/11/2001, PLEASE DON"T! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’m curious as to whether it is practical to cruise up and down the Nile R. with a private yacht. Legalities and other hassles: Practical draft limitations: Safety and pleasurability of your reception by the Egyptians: Any other information that may be of interest: —     Mark Anderson – DBA Riparia Resources    www.riparia.org Medical info for cruisers and woodworkers.  Boatbuilding plans. Artistic photography      Landscapes – Nautical and marine – Abstracts, extracts and themes.

Response:

I’m curious as to whether it is practical to cruise up and down the Nile R. with a private yacht. Legalities and other hassles: Practical draft limitations: Safety and pleasurability of your reception by the Egyptians: Any other information that may be of interest: —      Mark Anderson – DBA Riparia Resources    www.riparia.org Medical info for cruisers and woodworkers.  Boatbuilding plans. Artistic photography       Landscapes – Nautical and marine – Abstracts, extracts and themes.

Response:

Question:

I don’t know what the hell is going on with everyone in here! Bloody fights at every turn… long back and forth drivel over the silliest little things.   For crying out loud… be adult.  If you don’t like what someone says… ignore it… you have the ability to alter your filters so you don’t even have to read that persons postings… You don’t always have to have the last word you know…. And nobody really cares who started it. Kath

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know what the hell is going on with everyone in here! Bloody fights at every turn… long back and forth drivel over the silliest little things. For crying out loud… be adult.  If you don’t like what someone says… ignore it… you have the ability to alter your filters so you don’t even have to read that persons postings… You don’t always have to have the last word you know…. And nobody really cares who started it. Kath

You spoilin’ fer a fight, lady?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a hackle? Do I? Excuse me while I look this up. I had to look it up myself. My favorite definition was "a tuft of cock feathers trimming an artificial fishing fly". I sure hope I don’t have one of *those*, especially in an "up" condition! And watch out for that hook! It would certainly make "dick-waving" more interesting for the spectators! Oh. So *that’s* where it goes. I suppose the ‘cock feathers’ should have been a give-away, but I was still thinking farmyard fowl. Maybe I can use my comb to keep it in trim. The tuft. You have feathers? <G

Um, doesn’t everybody? <VBG Quack! pavanne — For info about this service, see http://www.twwells.com/anon/ or e-mail:

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a hackle? Do I? Excuse me while I look this up. I had to look it up myself. My favorite definition was "a tuft of cock feathers trimming an artificial fishing fly". I sure hope I don’t have one of *those*, especially in an "up" condition! And watch out for that hook! It would certainly make "dick-waving" more interesting for the spectators! Oh. So *that’s* where it goes. I suppose the ‘cock feathers’ should have been a give-away, but I was still thinking farmyard fowl. Maybe I can use my comb to keep it in trim. The tuft. You have feathers? <G

Three paragraphs higher than you’re thinking. —          The opinions given above may be mine. They might also            just be what I feel like saying right now, okay?

Response:

I have a hackle? Do I? Excuse me while I look this up. I had to look it up myself. My favorite definition was "a tuft of cock feathers trimming an artificial fishing fly". I sure hope I don’t have one of *those*, especially in an "up" condition! And watch out for that hook! It would certainly make "dick-waving" more interesting for the spectators!

Oh. So *that’s* where it goes. I suppose the ‘cock feathers’ should have been a give-away, but I was still thinking farmyard fowl. Maybe I can use my comb to keep it in trim. The tuft. —          The opinions given above may be mine. They might also            just be what I feel like saying right now, okay?

Response:

I don’t know what the hell is going on with everyone in here! Everyone? mom! kiwigirl is staring at me again!

hahahahahahahaha. whew. you better watch it or you’re dead at recess.   jean

Response:

This, my dear, is ASD.  Where people with varying degrees of mental illness from across the globe cross paths in a matter unprecedented in history.  Where images and projections are given free rein, fed by the mystery of a glowing screen.  Where reality, encountered, rarely satisfies.  Where hearts are broken, behavior repeats itself, needs are laid bare, and a few of us die.  And once in a while, people fall in love, or don’t need to be here anymore.

<gasp Chimera, Where did you get this? i like it. It’s so accurate and… pretty.

Response:

To me it boils down to the difference between being assertive and being aggressive.

Yes!! {jumping up and down] Never, ever, goggle ever (as Maria would say) can get this right. Rosena

Response:

I am kinda curious as to why so many people’s hackles are up and feel the need to fight over a phrase, or a tone in a reply or post.

I have a hackle? Do I? Excuse me while I look this up. <Later Why would anyone think that I had combs for flax or hemp? Odd that. I’d thought it would be something completely different. You know, personal. —          The opinions given above may be mine. They might also            just be what I feel like saying right now, okay?

Response:

or else it ends up with some one telling you they think you are fake like glen told me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *shrug*  Hey… if this fighting is causing positive changes, helping vent some steam etc… it’s all good!  But from where I’m reading, it’s not, it’s destructive, and people are (A) getting hurt, or (B) getting flamed to hell for all that positive venting. To me it boils down to the difference between being assertive and being aggressive. It’s one thing to assert yourself when there’s a conflict with another person (i.e., stand your ground); it’s entirely another thing to aggress against someone else in a conflict (i.e., go out of your way to hurt that person, as is the case with flames). Trouble is, the boundary between assertiveness and aggression is kinda fuzzy, and depends at least in part on how the various individuals involved interpret a series of exchanges. What I might intend as simply "standing my ground" may be interpreted by the other person as a personal attack, and vice versa. On a related note, I tend to think that anger in and of itself is not destructive. The trick is learning how to express it in a way that does not harm the folks one is angry at. If this group offers some opportunities for learning how to deal with angry emotions in a less destructive manner, then it serves as a force for positive change. Sometimes that happens here, sometimes it doesn’t. And so it goes. Welcome to ASD. James p/e "Vision is both revelation and revolution. It is the call AND the response." — James Benjamin (2000) http://www.geocities.com/the_bokononist/

Response:

*shrug*  Hey… if this fighting is causing positive changes, helping vent some steam etc… it’s all good!  But from where I’m reading, it’s not, it’s destructive, and people are (A) getting hurt, or (B) getting flamed to hell for all that positive venting.

To me it boils down to the difference between being assertive and being aggressive. It’s one thing to assert yourself when there’s a conflict with another person (i.e., stand your ground); it’s entirely another thing to aggress against someone else in a conflict (i.e., go out of your way to hurt that person, as is the case with flames). Trouble is, the boundary between assertiveness and aggression is kinda fuzzy, and depends at least in part on how the various individuals involved interpret a series of exchanges. What I might intend as simply "standing my ground" may be interpreted by the other person as a personal attack, and vice versa. On a related note, I tend to think that anger in and of itself is not destructive. The trick is learning how to express it in a way that does not harm the folks one is angry at. If this group offers some opportunities for learning how to deal with angry emotions in a less destructive manner, then it serves as a force for positive change. Sometimes that happens here, sometimes it doesn’t. And so it goes. Welcome to ASD. James p/e "Vision is both revelation and revolution. It is the call AND the response." — James Benjamin (2000) http://www.geocities.com/the_bokononist/

Response:

Hey Kath, Why not just ignore and filter out the fights? I think fighting is healthy. It brings our our truest emotions to the forefront and always us to sit afterwards and learn so much more about ourselves. Fighting is a normal part of lives, can’t get around it. Sometimes it’s a fun way to release some of that pressure building up inside of us that just needs to get out. Mary Beth

I know that…  I dunno…. guess two reasons I even bothered to post about this… 1 – I’m concerned.    In my nice little world of fairies and laughter… I like to see people getting along, being supportive etc and I don’t know what’s causing the problems, the hostility etc.   2 – I hate to see the wrong people get dragged into fights simply by replying the wrong way or to the wrong post, and yes, selfishly, I am worried that I’ll get flamed to hell and back. *shrug*  Hey… if this fighting is causing positive changes, helping vent some steam etc… it’s all good!  But from where I’m reading, it’s not, it’s destructive, and people are (A) getting hurt, or (B) getting flamed to hell for all that positive venting. I’m not flaming… that’s obvious.  But I am concerned about it.  And if that’s wrong, so be it… some people don’t agree… that’s your right, just as it’s my right to express my concern about it. kath

Response:

it’s just aprt of the asd culture… sometimes people have shitfight. happens in real life, happens here. i do the obvious and just don’t read any of it. it does help, y’know. and, for what it’s worth, i’m quite happy being a kid. stuffed if i’m going to act like an adult just to keep everyone happy! — *** DO NOT ADJUST YOUR MIND; THE FAULT IS WITH REALITY! Adam came first. But then, men always do. God created men because a vibrator couldn’t mow the lawn so you can make me cum — that doesn’t make you jesus icq #20581291

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know what the hell is going on with everyone in here! Bloody fights at every turn… long back and forth drivel over the silliest little things. For crying out loud… be adult.  If you don’t like what someone says… ignore it… you have the ability to alter your filters so you don’t even have to read that persons postings… You don’t always have to have the last word you know…. And nobody really cares who started it. Kath

Response:

AND I forgot to use my own doggone email addy instead of the one the sharer of this computer uses. I’M A YUTZ!!!

Response:

You don’t always have to have the last word you know…. And nobody really cares who started it. Kath You spoilin’ fer a fight, lady? No i’m not.  And I’m not hassling people for posting their feelings.

Oops…fergot to turn on the flashing neon IRONY sign when I posted that.  Mea culpa.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You don’t always have to have the last word you know…. And nobody really cares who started it. Kath You spoilin’ fer a fight, lady? No i’m not.  And I’m not hassling people for posting their feelings. I am kinda curious as to why so many people’s hackles are up and feel the need to fight over a phrase, or a tone in a reply or post. This is a forum for discussion, venting etc… I get that… I just don’t know what’s changed in the atmosphere that so many people are taking things personally and fighting about things. *sigh*  maybe I just don’t get it? Sorry for bothering… kath

yah, there does seem to be quite a bit of squabbling lately. one thing about this place though, is that there is so much going on that, much of the time, it isn’t that hard to decide, "i’m not reading that type of post" — no matter whether your "that type of post" is cat posts or polls or flames — and still have plenty of other posts to read. one trick which has served me well, when i have become tired of reading the fighting, is to look for the threads which look like entwined snakes where a few people are on semi-manic replying binges and just delete those unread. anyway, hope you are doing ok. ferret, postmail

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know what the hell is going on with everyone in here! Bloody fights at every turn… long back and forth drivel over the silliest little things.   For crying out loud… be adult.  If you don’t like what someone says… ignore it… you have the ability to alter your filters so you don’t even have to read that persons postings… You don’t always have to have the last word you know…. And nobody really cares who started it. Kath

Hey Kath, Why not just ignore and filter out the fights? I think fighting is healthy. It brings our our truest emotions to the forefront and always us to sit afterwards and learn so much more about ourselves. Fighting is a normal part of lives, can’t get around it. Sometimes it’s a fun way to release some of that pressure building up inside of us that just needs to get out. Mary Beth

Response:

You don’t always have to have the last word you know…. And nobody really cares who started it. Kath You spoilin’ fer a fight, lady?

No i’m not.  And I’m not hassling people for posting their feelings. I am kinda curious as to why so many people’s hackles are up and feel the need to fight over a phrase, or a tone in a reply or post. This is a forum for discussion, venting etc… I get that… I just don’t know what’s changed in the atmosphere that so many people are taking things personally and fighting about things. *sigh*  maybe I just don’t get it? Sorry for bothering… kath

Response:

Question:

  A few slight differences of opinion, noted below. OK, I will try.  A sportfisherman will have a big cockpit, a transom door, and a stepped up entrance to the salon. Its helm will be in a position so that the captain can see the transom and the cockpit. Common fishing accessories would include a marlin or tuna tower, outriggers,  and cockpit controls.

  A fair description, but I might add that the cabin might be very small or nonexistent.  The emphasis is on fishing, not cabin. A Sedan has a bigger salon, and even a smaller cockpit than a convertible. 25 years ago the difference between a convertible and a sedan was the sedan had an enclosed salon with sliders or a sinlge door in the aft bulkhead; the convertible had an open salon with no aft bulkhead. All three styles, sportfisherman, sedan, and convertible, have a flybridge.

  My definition of a sedan is a bit different.  What I call a sedan they don’t seem to make anymore, but they used to be fairly common.  There is a style of boat that has a smaller cabin and larger elevated back deck area (higher because it is over the engine), with the helm in the forward most portion of the back deck area.  At least the forward portion of this deck would be enclosed, with glass windows, windshield wipers, etc.  It would not have a fly bridge.  A lot of the "classic" wood boats were built this way.   Older sedan models were often a displacement hull rather than a planing hull. An express cruiser has no flybridge!

  I would add that the helm station is rather exposed, often with little or no windshield. The boat is fairly low profile, making it fast and light, as well as a minimum of bridge clearance.  They are not good for foul weather, however, as their only helm station has no protection. Rod

Response:

Hi, Peggie, I agree with the statements for the late seventies models but the late sixties early seventies had most of the engines for the Silvertons under the cock pit with the drives going under the entry. Most other Larz group boats did the about the same thing. Most of the sedans that we have in our area from that era have small salon access. A few with sliders but here in the Midwest, most Silvertons have the door and window option. — Regards and God Speed, Gary Gary W. Sandvik The magic is in the magician not the wand! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, My one exception is the difference between the sedan and convertible cockpits. Early sedan designs that I’ve seen Silverton, Trojan seem to have larger cockpits with smaller salon access. I dunno Gary, the Trojan F32 and F36, built from ‘73-91, all had wide sliding glass doors from the cockpit to the saloon. The early ’70s Eggs and Pacemakers had wood bulkheads with small doors, but the late ’70s forward also had big sliding glass doors. In fact, by the mid-’70s glass saloon aft bulkheads were pretty much standard on all of ‘em…’cuz inside lower helm stations in addition to the flying bridges begin to become popular. Circa late 60s’ too mid 70s’ seem to have this design aspect. This allowed a larger engine area below the cockpit to accomodate those HP to push those monster hulls. Again, I dunno…That might have been true of smaller single engine models, but the engines in every twin engine flybridge sedan/convertable/sportfisher I’ve seen–including mine–are beneath the saloon, not the cockpit. All that weight midship instead of aft certainly makes it easier to get on plane and hold it at lower RPMS…an something I consider a definite advantage over express style cruisers. Peggie  Hell my old 28′ Silverton SD FB, keel was at least 8" thick and about 3/4-1" at the gunnel. Even the transom was about 1/2 to 3/4" thick. Long before they knew anything about reducing the mass to save $$. Heck the guy who originally brought the Rock to Peoria told me stories about how he broke ice to get into the harbor. Another old river story but I’m sure he broke some ice somewhere. But Capt, your descripts were good! — Regards and God Speed, Gary Gary W. Sandvik The magic is in the magician not the wand! OK, I will try.  A sportfisherman will have a big cockpit, a transom door, and a stepped up entrance to the salon. Its helm will be in a position so that the captain can see the transom and the cockpit. Common fishing accessories would include a marlin or tuna tower, outriggers,  and cockpit controls. A convertible is a boat that compromises between a "sedan" and a "sportfisherman". It will have a smaller cockpit, usually no stepped up entrance to the salon (more often than not "apartment door" sliders), and the helm will be in a more forward position. A Sedan has a bigger salon, and even a smaller cockpit than a convertible. 25 years ago the difference between a convertible and a sedan was the sedan had an enclosed salon with sliders or a sinlge door in the aft bulkhead; the convertible had an open salon with no aft bulkhead. All three styles, sportfisherman, sedan, and convertible, have a flybridge. An express cruiser has no flybridge! What do you say class, how did I do? Capt Lou of "Nautical Talk Radio" heard every Sunday morning 8 – 9 on WPRO 630AM serving Rhode Island and every Sunday afternoon from   4 – 5 on WATD 95.9FM serving Massachusetts.

Response:

Hi, My one exception is the difference between the sedan and convertible cockpits. Early sedan designs that I’ve seen Silverton, Trojan seem to have larger cockpits with smaller salon access. Circa late 60s’ too mid 70s’ seem to have this design aspect. This allowed a larger engine area below the cockpit to accomodate those HP to push those monster hulls. Hell my old 28′ Silverton SD FB, keel was at least 8" thick and about 3/4-1" at the gunnel. Even the transom was about 1/2 to 3/4" thick. Long before they knew anything about reducing the mass to save $$. Heck the guy who originally brought the Rock to Peoria told me stories about how he broke ice to get into the harbor. Another old river story but I’m sure he broke some ice somewhere. But Capt, your descripts were good! — Regards and God Speed, Gary Gary W. Sandvik The magic is in the magician not the wand!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, I will try.  A sportfisherman will have a big cockpit, a transom door, and a stepped up entrance to the salon. Its helm will be in a position so that the captain can see the transom and the cockpit. Common fishing accessories would include a marlin or tuna tower, outriggers,  and cockpit controls. A convertible is a boat that compromises between a "sedan" and a "sportfisherman". It will have a smaller cockpit, usually no stepped up entrance to the salon (more often than not "apartment door" sliders), and the helm will be in a more forward position. A Sedan has a bigger salon, and even a smaller cockpit than a convertible. 25 years ago the difference between a convertible and a sedan was the sedan had an enclosed salon with sliders or a sinlge door in the aft bulkhead; the convertible had an open salon with no aft bulkhead. All three styles, sportfisherman, sedan, and convertible, have a flybridge. An express cruiser has no flybridge! What do you say class, how did I do? Capt Lou of "Nautical Talk Radio" heard every Sunday morning 8 – 9 on WPRO 630AM serving Rhode Island and every Sunday afternoon from   4 – 5 on WATD 95.9FM serving Massachusetts.

Response:

Thank’s for the help.   On a day like this,  when the sleet is falling atop the five inches of snow we just got – I sometimes go to yachtworld,com boats for sale and just dream of  boat twice the length of mine.   Now I have a much better idea what I’m looking at. Alan

Response:

I

Question:

I’m a farmer from the midwest, and I have seen this behavior many times before.  In a hoglot (it can happen with cattle also) when one pig is picked on and shows too much weakness, often many other pigs will jump in and attack it.  They will often continue until they kill the weak pig. Now the article is gone so I cannot even read it, much less respond to it.  Usually when something stinks, it needs to be aired out.

Response:

FAOL made a public relations mistake by censoring opposing points of view in the public message forums and guest book.

Exactly right. I have been hearing a lot about how MC ‘censored’ Ole Rupe’s article when, in fact, FAOL censored any and all opposing comments, and based on Deanna’s reply to MC, she still doesn’t see why this was wrong. If opposing views had been allowed from the beginning, this whole debate would have been conducted on FAOL, where it belonged. Just imagine if Time magazine, for instance, published this article and refused to acknowledge any opposing views, but published a weak disclaimer a few issues later. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down" ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

Geez, bc, the anti-defamation league? Isn’t that overkill?   I don’t know why any responsible publisher (even on the net) would publish such crap but I guess I would just desub.  Seems like everbody wants to censor.  What a pain in the ass.

He incited killing people based on race.   Funniest thing, the author apparently doesn’t know anything about his subject, first-hand.  "If I lived" kinda makes you wonder about what he really would do if he did live there.  My guess would be hide under a rock.

He would be the last person I would invite on a hunting trip bc.

Response:

Folks Racists and their closet brethren are uniformly cowards and depend on easy prey and a wimpy defense. When they get challenged they generally run for cover. When they get their ass kicked they cry foul. When they are on top they kill and incite others to kill.  Civilized people who refuse to accept the inconvenience of the fight are walking shaky ground. Anyone feeling sorry for these assholes might try to consider how  Native American kids who accessed Ole Rupe’s racist shit felt. One of the most important lessons of the 20th Century is that racists and Nazis will use the hood at night, the gas chamber when they can get away with it and a cynical intellectualized stance when it suits them, and further, that the only effective way to fight them is to make them pay a high price for their bullshit. Good riddance, F*** Rupe and the horse he rode in on Dave

Response:

Why don’t you just email the author and ask for a copy?<

Who the fuck is the author?   And that’s not the point, anyway.  However, valiant ROFFians have provided me with this "tempest in a teapot"  piece of shit. Waste of good bandwidth to even discuss it.

Response:

I certainly have no tolerance for censorship. Had I been able to read the article perhaps I would have reacted differently, but thanks to all you "right thinkers" I do not have that opportunity. Expressing an opinion and attempting to force other expressions off the net are two different things.  I trust you can see that.

I am not condoning censorship.  FAOL made the decision to publish the article unedited in its original form.  The article would have been just as effective with out the racial overtones.  FAOL made a public relations mistake by censoring opposing points of view in the public message forums and guest book.  It was only after this censorship took place, did I start my letter campaign making sponsors and organizations like the Anti-Defamation League aware of that article. bc.

Response:

It was only after this censorship took

place, did I start my letter campaign making sponsors and organizations like the Anti-Defamation League aware of that article.< Geez, bc, the anti-defamation league?   Isn’t that overkill?  I don’t know why any responsible publisher (even on the net) would publish such crap but I guess I would just desub.  Seems like everbody wants to censor.  What a pain in the ass. Funniest thing, the author apparently doesn’t know anything about his subject, first-hand.  "If I lived" kinda makes you wonder about what he really would do if he did live there.  My guess would be hide under a rock.

Response:

Why don’t you just email the author and ask for a copy?< Who the fuck is the author?   And that’s not the point, anyway.  However, valiant ROFFians have provided me with this "tempest in a teapot"  piece of shit. Waste of good bandwidth to even discuss it.

I believe the whole thing started because Mike didn’t want articles he had written in the same ‘publication’ as that one, which is his right as an author. You were complaining that the result of his actions deprived you of your opportunity to read the article. FWIW. — Charlie…

Response:

I believe the whole thing started because Mike didn’t want articles he

had written in the same ‘publication’ as that one, which is his right as an author. You were complaining that the result of his actions deprived you of your opportunity to read the article. FWIW.< In spite of the recent Ct of Appeals decision, whether or not it’s his right is still up in the air IMO.  But yeah, I was complaining about that.   Now that I’ve read it, I wish I had had the opportunity to read it BEFORE I got into this thread.  And that’s the closest thing to an apology anyone is going to get from me. <g

Response:

Isn’t that overkill?  I don’t know why any responsible publisher (even on the net) would publish such crap but I guess I would just desub.  Seems like everbody wants to censor.  What a pain in the ass.

Good point Harry. I raised a stink precisely because I do appreciate FAOL and have no desire to "unsubscribe". If the publication were of no value and little read, there would have been no outcry. I said as much to Deanna in reply to an email, I hope she takes it to heart. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I do not regret any of my actions, and would do the same thing again if necessary.  I do regret the damage caused to the site, or to people connected with it, but this is in no way my responsibility.  This is purely the result of their own actions. The decision to close is up to the publishers alone, and I have no influence in the matter.

Mike certainly doesn’t need validation from me, but I do agree with the way he handled the whole mess. He removed himself from a publication he didn’t agree with, and told people why. The situation got a bit excessive, but the publisher’s actions and responses seemed to be as bizarre as the author’s, including shutting down the site and the ‘enjoy your victory’ bullshit. Sounds like one bad association (Rupe, Deanna, the public, and Mike) just waiting to flame out…and it did. — Jeff Cook http://www.cookstudios.com Washington DC area

Response:

What’s with this "closure" of FAOL? Does that mean they’re shutting it down altogether? Why? Is this a case of the publisher "eating worms"? Will she have second thoughts? Or have all her sponsors deserted her? Tune in at 11. Seriously, folks, this is what they call a perverse result. I don’t think anyone in ROFF who was offended by the article wanted FAOL to cease to exist. Maybe a letter-writing campaign to their ex-sponsors along these lines would be called for: "I am satisfied by FAOL’s apology and retraction of the offensive article. Please continue your sponsorship of this fine web site." Not that it will do much good. One more thing. Before you start letter-writing campaigns to sponsors when you see something you don’t like on an otherwise excellent website, think about perverse effects. Wait at least of few days. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

HR, Like a spoiled little boy, he demanded that they return his ball.  If you don’t do what I want, I’ll take my ball (those precious "articles") and go home.

The analogy to the spoiled little boy and his ball is something of a stretch.  Mike’s contributions were more than a ball.  They could easily be construed as an endorsement of the site and, once the site stepped over a line to which Mike is sensitive, it’s understandable that Mike would no longer want his name associated with that site. Thanks to Mike and others of his ilk, I have not read the article.  

Mike and his ilk aren’t the only problem, here.  As I understand it, their opposing views were censored before they took additional steps. We can now only speculate how things might have turned out had opposing views been given prompt and equally prominent exposure. But even if I had, and found it racist,  I would not have demanded it’s removal.

I also wish the whole affair had been handled differently.  You may recall that I was one who opposed Mr. G’s remarks about Indians/fishing on ROFF.

Sorry.  I didn’t see those posts… But noooo, apparently I and others are not to be allowed that privilege.

It doesn’t seem possible that you believe the site in question is/was the only place on earth you could read that article.  Assuming Rupe is willing, it may be posted elsewhere.  You might even hunt Rupe up and request a copy if you’re as passionate as you sound about wanting to read it yourself.  It might even be that one of the article’s antagonists grabbed a copy and could email it to you.  But you gotta ask. The CENSORS have had their way.

I’m not arguing that point.  As I said before, I had concerns about the "censorship" aspect of the issue.  Censorship, though, isn’t always a dirty word.  You could say that I censored Larry Flint by keeping Hustler Magazine out of my house.  There were kids around. Was that kind of "censorship" a bad thing? We’ve long had laws on the books to discourage uncivil speech in public places.  It hasn’t been that long ago that a dunked boater was busted and prosecuted for cussing up a blue streak around women and kids.  Certainly you can argue that such laws infringe freedom of speech. But when you can walk into any supermarket and run a good chance of finding yourself — and your kids — in the checkout line behind somebody wearing a tee-shirt emblazoned with all manner of obscenites — you have to wonder… If we now find ourselves so enlightened that such laws are an embarrasment, what remedies do you propose for those who prefer not to be accosted by uncivil speech?  Are we to reduce them to staying indoors and keeping their mouths shut?  If that’s the answer, haven’t we censored them? One of my points to which you didn’t respond was the issue of all of us using our influence to affect the world around us.  What I’m wondering about is something like this: Remember when the Exxon Valdez ran aground?  Remember Exxon’s grudging responses?  Suppose somebody had succeeded in motivating a large number of Exxon customers to protest by buying their petrol elsewhere. Would that have been dirty pool or economic terrorism? Don’t us mere citizens have a right to prod and push our world about to shape it into something we think would be better? The way I see it, freedom of speech is a door that swings both ways. That is, say what you like, but be prepared for others to respond by saying what _they_ like.  And sometimes they say it _very_ loudly. Which is what Mike did. Wes Peterson LexCraft Data Services

Response:

I have always had a pretty good opinion of you Mike but I must say that I understand now why you live in Germany.  Who the fuck put you in charge of anything, much less in charge of deciding what should and should not appear on the net?  You have come out of this looking like a pretentious asshole IMO. But now I guess you can write some of your famous doggerel and everything will be all right.

Blaine, First of all, country of origin as nothing to do with expressing you’re own point of view. Mike did not put himself in charge of anything.  He has the legal right to express his opinion.  The publishers of the site made a business decision to put that article unedited on their commercial site.  The article would have been just as effective without those comments. When opposing points of view were expressed, they were quickly censored and removed from the public areas of the site.  Their justification was that they were off topic and inflammatory. If I go to a bookstore and pick up the latest issue of a fly fishing magazine, I can make a fair assumption that the articles enclosed will contain material relevant to the sport.  That the articles will not be intertwined with racial comments, incitement to kill someone and that 30/06 rifle rounds is inexpensive.  The same assumption should be made of an online magazine dedicated to fly-fishing. As far as I am concerned the staff of FAOL could have handled the entire situation better. The article in its original form had no business being on a commercial venue like FAOL. Based on the responses that I have received from sponsors when I sent out my email, I could surmise that they agree.   You and FAOL lack one thing: tolerance bc.

Response:

Presumably you think its OK for people to voice their hatred and poisonous

viewpoints, but not OK to do anything actively to oppose them ?< I have no knowledge of what was written and thanks to you and others like you, I will apparently have no opportunity to.  What I do oppose is censorship in any way shape or form.   No doubt you will live to censor another day.  And I’m glad I distressed you.  Certainly you have distressed me.

Response:

You and FAOL lack one thing: tolerance< I certainly have no tolerance for censorship. Had I been able to read the article perhaps I would have reacted differently, but thanks to all you "right thinkers" I do not have that opportunity. Expressing an opinion and attempting to force other expressions off the net are two different things.  I trust you can see that.

Would you like a copy of it?  I kept a copy for reference. Peter

Response:

You and FAOL lack one thing: tolerance<

I certainly have no tolerance for censorship. Had I been able to read the article perhaps I would have reacted differently, but thanks to all you "right thinkers" I do not have that opportunity. Expressing an opinion and attempting to force other expressions off the net are two different things.  I trust you can see that.

Response:

I have no knowledge of what was written and thanks to you and others like you, I will apparently have no opportunity to.  What I do oppose is censorship in any way shape or form.   No doubt you will live to censor another day.  And I’m glad I distressed you.  Certainly you have distressed me.

Why don’t you just email the author and ask for a copy? — Charlie…

Response:

Would you like a copy of it?  I kept a copy for reference.<

Thanks, Peter but Christian sent me one.   Is THIS really what all the fuss is about? "With regard to native American fishing rights I hold the politically incorrect view that the only good Indian is a dead Indian. If I lived  where they gill netted steelhead I would be on the 6 p.m. news. Uncle Sam taught me how to remove problems at 300 meters." Stupid?  Yes.  Disgusting that someone would put this onto the net (or anyplace, for that matter)?  Absolutely.   I disagree totally with the ideas expressed there.  Would I bitch about them?  Hell yes.   Do I believe that Rupe (or whatever the hell his name is) has a right to express them.  Yes, I do.   On a fly fishing site?  While I disagree violently with him, his comments are related to fishing.  So why not?  It’s not like his ideas, however unpalatable, are apt to have the impact of, say, shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre, now are they. With all the horrible examoles of racism that we see and have seen, frankly, this appears to me to be a tempest in a teapot. There are a lot better ways of fighting evil than writing about it on the net. But then, we’re writers, not doers, eh?

Response:

<long "final" rant snipped I have always had a pretty good opinion of you Mike but I must say that I understand now why you live in Germany.  Who the fuck put you in charge of anything, much less in charge of deciding what should and should not appear on the net?  You have come out of this looking like a pretentious asshole IMO. But now I guess you can write some of your famous doggerel and everything will be all right.

You are entitled to your opinion, good or bad.  Your insulting generalised implications of why I live where I live are unnecessary, unfortunate, unfounded, unworthy and not a little distressing. I am not in charge of anything at all. I simply voiced a perfectly normal protest at a particularly crass example of racism, in a place and under circumstances which where extremely upsetting. Your opinion of my person is also not particularly nice, but you have every right to voice it. I will doubtless survive nevertheless. Presumably you think its OK for people to voice their hatred and poisonous viewpoints, but not OK to do anything actively to oppose them ? Let

Question:

Anyone have info on fly fishing at Lake Casitas and/or along the beach in Ventura/Santa Barbara area?  Looking to do some fishing closer to home. Thanks Jeff M.

Response:

Check with Jandd Mountaineering in Santa Barbara 882-1195.  They have a fly shop and might be able to help you.  If not there is a new shop in Santa Barbara called "MacDuff’s" in the 1000 or 1100 block of State St. that should be able to help.  Surf Perch fishing is pretty good with crab patterns along the Ventura beach area. Wes along the beach – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -in Ventura/Santa Barbara area?  Looking to do some fishing closer to home. Thanks Jeff M.

Response:

Question:

 A friend told me of a camera he saw on In-Fisherman over the weekend. It was a unit that went into the water and the person wore "goggles" that let him see what was coming from the camera. Anyone know any specifics on this unit? — Rick Todd                     Milwaukee, Wisconsin http://www.execpc.com/~rtodd/rlthome.htm Just another speck in the dustpile of the Internet.

Response:

A friend told me of a camera he saw on In-Fisherman over the weekend. It was a unit that went into the water and the person wore "goggles" that let him see what was coming from the camera. Anyone know any specifics on this unit?

Why not contact In-Fisherman directly? Regards, — Rick Todd                     Milwaukee, Wisconsin http://www.execpc.com/~rtodd/rlthome.htm Just another speck in the dustpile of the Internet.

         Trent Roberson            Rx F Fish  For Your Good Health, Fly Fish URL=http://www.xnet.com/~rxffish

Response:

:  A friend told me of a camera he saw on In-Fisherman over the weekend. It : was a unit that went into the water and the person wore "goggles" that let : him see what was coming from the camera. Anyone know any specifics on this : unit? Hmmm, sounds nice if your in clear blue water, but not sure how well that would work in the Midwestern waters. I have a scuba enclosure on my camcorder, and i once dropped it into Lake Calumet. Nothing but brown water on that tape (couldn’t see a thing). I think in most places around here (I noticed your ISP is from Milwaukee) you’d be better off with a fish finder type unit.       Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page:  http://www.ripco.com/~jwn/

Response:

A friend told me of a camera he saw on In-Fisherman over the weekend. It was a unit that went into the water and the person wore "goggles" that let him see what was coming from the camera. Anyone know any specifics on this unit?

It is being developed by Ron Lindner and, I think, Tony Capra.  The camera is lowered on a tether/video cable arrangement.  As far as viewing what the camera is focused on you can use either a small monitor, video recorder, or virtual reality glasses (which is what they were using=goggles). Could only be used on about a quarter of the lakes I fish … Jay — Many men go fishing all their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.                                             – Henry David Thoreau

Response:

I don’t know if this is the same setup, but a company called "Fisheye" makes an underwater camera. You can reach them at: Fisheye PO Box 3311 Everett, WA  98203 (206) 339-1352 (800) Fish-969 http://www.fisheyeinc.com Their units start at $1445.00. If you want to go cheaper, I know where you can purchase solid state, near .1 lux cameras that are small (2" X 2") that create there own IR light source.  Just the thing for our murky waters up here in Milwaukee.  They go for around $150, but you would need to make a waterproof case for it.   I’ve heard of these being attached to the weight of a downrigger, to watch the fish coming up to the lure. I have explored all avenues of this, had have everything figured out, except the waterproof case. The goggles are simply VR goggles setup to display video images.  A friend told me of a camera he saw on In-Fisherman over the weekend. It was a unit that went into the water and the person wore "goggles" that let him see what was coming from the camera. Anyone know any specifics on this unit?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rick Todd                     Milwaukee, Wisconsin http://www.execpc.com/~rtodd/rlthome.htm Just another speck in the dustpile of the Internet.

Response:

Question:

On Fri, 14 Mar 1997 03:27:25 GMT, jl…@knox.mindspring.com wrote: ~…@bi.org (Lucas Aarons) wrote:

~ Can I dig my foot out of my mouth now…..? I aplogize profusely…. I have been having a REALLY bad day and I VERY inappropriately took it out on you……. I will try to be less of an asshole next time. Please accept as my apology a more appropriate response: ~can someone tell me what the child support percentage is in SC for 3 ~children?  also, is there any restriction on visitation (such as ~children cannot stay overnight with a parent if they are living with ~someone they are not married to)?  if  the divorce order is in one ~state and the parent moves to another does the original order stay in ~effect or can the parent get the it changed to the new state? I do not know the percentages in SC. It doubt VERY highly if there are any restrictions on visitation other than those outlined in any decree. Divorce decrees can not be moved as far as I know…. ~ ~please respond by e-mail as i haven’t been able to pick up these ~groups on a regular basis.   I am sending this to you in Email and also publicly apologizing to you in the newsgroup. I would like to ask that it be chalked up to a shitty day and let it slide. I will endeavor to never let my fingers hit the keyboard in here until my brain is in gear and my attitude is supportive no matter the question. Please, once again, accept my humble apologies. You were the victim of severe spillover. I’M SORRY! Lucas -DCS———————————————————– Any unsolicited COMMERCIAL Email, (SPAM), sent to any of my addresses will be charged $85 per hour, with a TWO hour minimum, for reading, replying, and time it takes to format messages to all of the uplinks to have the offenders internet service terminated. Sending of said unsolicited COMMERCIAL Email constitutes acceptance of these terms. —————————————————————

Response:

>can someone tell me what the child support percentage is in SC for 3 children?  

Sorry, I don’t know about that. In my state, it’s a formula combined with whatever expenses the custodial parent dreams up, which are never questioned.   >> also, is there any restriction on visitation (such as children cannot stay overnight with a parent if they are living with someone they are not married to)?<<

I truly can’t fathom this.  I would think that this would be something that has to be put in the decree at the request of a parent at the time of the final hearing, but this is my guess.  My husband and I lived with each other before getting married and his ex-wife is living with someone.  It’s probably the only thing we haven’t tried to hang each other over! >> if  the divorce order is in one state and the parent moves to another does the original order stay in effect or can the parent get the it changed to the new state?<<

It hinges on which state the children are residents of in Colorado.  If we had custody and moved out of state, we could petition the courts to change the case to the new district we were in after we had established residency there.  However, if we move without the children (non-custodial), then the court with jurisdiction remains the same.   There is a group on the net called alt.support.child-support (I think that’s close).  Although they spend alot of time just griping, they can be of some help on occasion.  I’d post your question to them.   One other thing, my husband and I had to go back to court when Cheri (Jeff’s ex) was thinking about moving out of state with his kids.  Bottom line:  if it isn’t prohibited in the orginal orders (or subsequent orders), we can’t stop her.  We finally negotiated a truce which forbids her from taking them out permanently, but it wasn’t easy or cheap.   >please respond by e-mail as i haven’t been able to pick up these groups on a regular basis.  >

I’ll post and email. Good luck, Lynn

Response:

d…@bi.org (Lucas Aarons) wrote:

—>Can I dig my foot out of my mouth now…..? —>I aplogize profusely…. I have been having a REALLY bad day and I VERY —>inappropriately took it out on you……. —>I will try to be less of an asshole next time. —>Please accept as my apology a more appropriate response: thanks lucas.  apology accepted.  :)

Response:

I missed the original post (as sometimes happens with my list, too) because for some reason my reader ALSO refuses to let me in for several days at a time.  Believe me, I try to read at least once a day.  You can tell by how verbose I am. Anyway, you are welcome here.  The response you got was not typical. Lucas, what got up your butt?  I know you’re opinionated, but you usually aren’t nasty! Best wishes.  Hope you get over that bug, Lucas. Pam For the info of all newsgroup readers, a good site with discussion groups (including one for steps) as well as a legal database of state by state info is at: <http://www.divorcenet.com> (add /board6.html for the step discussions)

Response:

can someone tell me what the child support percentage is in SC for 3 children?  also, is there any restriction on visitation (such as children cannot stay overnight with a parent if they are living with someone they are not married to)?  if  the divorce order is in one state and the parent moves to another does the original order stay in effect or can the parent get the it changed to the new state? please respond by e-mail as i haven’t been able to pick up these groups on a regular basis.   thanks! jl…@mindspring.com

Response:

On Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:01:14 GMT, jl…@knox.mindspring.com wrote:

~can someone tell me what the child support percentage is in SC for 3 ~children?  also, is there any restriction on visitation (such as ~children cannot stay overnight with a parent if they are living with ~someone they are not married to)?  if  the divorce order is in one ~state and the parent moves to another does the original order stay in ~effect or can the parent get the it changed to the new state? First, we are not lawyers…. It sounds alot like you are fishing for a way to slap an ex…. Second, since you deserve the advice you get, here goes: (two face mask on) for 3 children the percentage is 50% of your income for the life of the children. This means that the amount you have earned since they were born, you divide into a monthly income and 50% of that is child-support…. As for restrictions on visitation: it depends on whether the other party is also living with someone. The children automatically become wards of the person who has another adult in the house with them. Especially if the other person is of the same sex. If your ex now has a live-in lover, you will need to either find a lover of your own sex, or hand over the children immediately. If it is you that now has the lover, demand immediate custody. Oh, of course, the divorce decree can be moved to any jurisdiction you wish. Even if you do not live there. We had our decree moved to mexico, because we found a judge who could be bribed to increase the bastards child support from a measly $105 per month to $1050 per month. I would strongly suggest moving to Japan if you are the non custodial parent. They dont believe in child support. ~please respond by e-mail as i haven’t been able to pick up these ~groups on a regular basis.   If you are unable to pick up this newsgroup on a regular basis, it is because you are too busy to bother. This is an alt.support group, not an alt.free.legal.advice group. ~thanks! You are NOT welcome…. ~jl…@mindspring.com If you want some support as a step-parent, drop in and see us sometime. Ask your lawyer for the legal advice. ~ -DCS———————————————————– Any unsolicited COMMERCIAL Email, (SPAM), sent to any of my addresses will be charged $85 per hour, with a TWO hour minimum, for reading, replying, and time it takes to format messages to all of the uplinks to have the offenders internet service terminated. Sending of said unsolicited COMMERCIAL Email constitutes acceptance of these terms. —————————————————————

Response:

d…@bi.org (Lucas Aarons) wrote:

—>First, we are not lawyers…. It sounds alot like you are fishing for a way —>to slap an ex…. i never said anyone here was.   but i figured that step-parents might have some insight into cs and visitation.   —>Second, since you deserve the advice you get, here goes: (two face mask on) and i never asked for legal advice.  i asked for information.  i never take anything  i read in any newsgroups as carved in stone fact. and it’s obvious from the "advice" you offered you don’t have the information. —>If you are unable to pick up this newsgroup on a regular basis, it is —>because you are too busy to bother. This is an alt.support group, not an —>alt.free.legal.advice group. no…  it is because i seem to have a problem with my reader when it tries to pull in groups that have large message bases.  so i don’t always get all messages.  so e-mail seems to work a bit better when i am asking for information. and again, i did NOT ask for advice. —>~thanks! —>You are NOT welcome…. what is your problem?  i asked for simple information  and i get treated rudely.  is that the way you treat everyone here?  or is it strictly reserved for newcomers???   —>If you want some support as a step-parent, drop in and see us sometime. i will be becoming a step-parent soon.  but if you are any indication of the type of step-parent that is a frequenter of this news group i am GLAD that i have problems pulling the group! —>Ask your lawyer for the legal advice. exactly what we do! my apoligies to anyone out there i annoyed with my simple request.  i never dreamed that it would receive this type of reception.

Response:

d…@bi.org (Lucas Aarons) wrote:

—>First, we are not lawyers…. It sounds alot like you are fishing for a way —>to slap an ex…. I don’t know about the rest of you.  YOU are not only apparently not a lawyer, you are not deserving of participation in a group that includes the word support.  What kind of an idiot responds to a simple request for information as if it were a personal insult?  Or do you have nothing better to do than shoot off your mouth? As it happens, this woman you have taken upon yourself to police is about to become a step-parent.  Her step-children are about to be taken by my ex-wife to South Carolina.  She is asking for information that anyone in South Carolina could easily look up in a public library. Most any idiot could recognize the difference between this and legal advice, but you appear to not be just any idiot.  You must be an especially depraved idiot, too sucked up in some kind of bitterness to notice. We could look up the information ourselves, except that we’re not IN South Carolina.  One would think that a newsgroup with a name like alt.support.step-parents would be a place to get support from other step-parents. I think a reasonable person would assume that.  Oh, but I forget, you don’t act like a reasonable person, you act like a self-evidenced depraved idiot. I suppose YOU would not wonder how your own situation might change as a result of the decisions that other people make.  You would just pony up whatever demands were placed on you.  Or else you would fly across the country and look up the information yourself.  But then, you seem to be an idiot, so I wouldn’t be surprised.  Only an idiot would attempt to read an entire set of motivations out of one posting of less than 15 lines.  Or perhaps you are psychic!  Let’s see, from your post…. —>If you are unable to pick up this newsgroup on a regular basis, it is —>because you are too busy to bother. ….you are able to tell the reason she doesn’t get the newsgroup regularly.  How amazing!  Except, you blithering idiot, that her ISP tends to time out before she can download all the postings, and so she tends to lose a lot of them. And this one takes a little more reading between the lines, but there seems to be a pattern: —>They dont believe in child support. So, Mr. or Ms. or Mx. Psychic, you probably are assuming that this is someone trying to get out of paying child support.  Couldn’t POSSIBLY be, could it, that this is someone who is trying to help BUDGET for something that she is not forced into?  No, that would be too human, something that a depraved idiot is in no position to understand. It is assholes like you who give the Internet a bad name.  If the newsgroup is for support, then be supportive or go somewhere that welcomes people who have nothing better to do with their feeble lives than flame. My thanks to you who actually provided support. You would seem more representative of this group than this one waste of space on the planet. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could actually support each other? And I apologize for taking up bandwidth.  A public slander deserves a public reply, however.

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Question:

I am new to this group so don’t know if there are other groups where this msg would be better posted.  Any suggestions regarding that would be appreciated. I am organizing a trip to Boundary Waters Canoe Area in MN for the end of July, 1996.  There will be 4 adults and 8 Boy Scouts in the age range 13-15.  All the kids are experienced campers and have at least some experience canoeing.  I have not been to BWCA before and would appreciate any words of wisdom that those with experience might have to offer.  Our current plan is to use Isabella Lake (Pt 35) as the entry point.  We will be on the lakes from 7/22/96 through 7/27/96.  We have already received our reservation confirmation from the Forest Service. One specific question I have regards water filtration systems.  What is the current state-of-the-art?  What should I consider? My ISP doesn’t keep msg for this newsgroup very long and I am afraid I might miss posted responses.  e-mail responses would me most appreciated. Tim: I don’t have any experience with boundary waters but I did take my troops venture crew into Algonquin Park last year for a week long canoe trip. I would expect that the water system we used might be of help to you. We took three PUR scout water purifers with the charcoal filters. One was personal gear and was kept in reserve. The other to were asigned to each of the patrols. We selected the PUR’s for two reasons. First they are purifers ie have an iodine matrex inside the filtering element. Second , ther price. About $60 (US) Their rated service life is about 200 gallons(US) per unit. These worked very well for us. As to other newsgroups where you mighrt post to, Have you trie rec.scouting. If you can tolerate all the BSA political threads, it a good newsgroup to check out. Hope this is of some help to you. Bill Schooley T-391 Hamburg, Mi.

Response:

I am new to this group so don’t know if there are other groups where this msg would be better posted.  Any suggestions regarding that would be appreciated. I am organizing a trip to Boundary Waters Canoe Area in MN for the end of July, 1996.  There will be 4 adults and 8 Boy Scouts in the age range 13-15.  All the kids are experienced campers and have at least some experience canoeing.  I have not been to BWCA before and would appreciate any words of wisdom that those with experience might have to offer.  Our current plan is to use Isabella Lake (Pt 35) as the entry point.  We will be on the lakes from 7/22/96 through 7/27/96.  We have already received our reservation confirmation from the Forest Service. One specific question I have regards water filtration systems.  What is the current state-of-the-art?  What should I consider? My ISP doesn’t keep msg for this newsgroup very long and I am afraid I might miss posted responses.  e-mail responses would me most appreciated. Thanks in advance for any responses! — ——      X      Tim C. Perry    T/cP    DSA, Inc.             314-576-5101

Response:

It has been several years since we went to BWCA.  You will really enjoy.   I don’t recall your entry point.  Good TOPO’s are helpful.  We found many of their maps were poorly done.  Be prepared for possible T-shorms.  It can put scouts through some weather stress because you can see storms coming for quite some time.  The water you cross can be big and quite choppy depending on the days.  The water is/was close to pottable so purifier shjould be satisfactory.  Don’t expect to carry the canoe and your packs together on the portages.  Plan several trips back and forth.   Some can be long. Very serious about the maps though.  It is easy to get disoriented on the water.  Be open to second guessing yourself. But you should have a great trip–We loved it there.  I intend to take our kids there again.  It is a great wilderness experience.  Take your fishing gear. Since your canoeing and not backpacking you can pack a bit of extra gear.  I suggest you make some bread.  The aroma in camp in the morning is unparalleled. PS be prepared for sketters and you may still be in black fly season.

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just don’t understand any logical reason for the way "sizes" are determined. A 7 wt. rod is lighter than a 9 wt. rod. OK. A 4 wt. line is smaller than a 5 wt. line, but a size 10 hook is smaller than a size 6 hook. A 10 pound test line is stronger than an 8 pound test line, but a 5x tippet is stronger (larger) than a 7x tippet. I don’t understand. Maybe I am just looking for too much logic. A lot of the things that we do are a matter of convention. To tighten something, you turn it to the right, to loosen it, you turn it to the left. To turn on the water, you turn the handle to the left and to turn it off, you turn it to the right. The size with the larger number is the larger size. These are things that are pretty well established.  They follow a logical order of uniformity. (I know there are exceptions). I would think that there would be some order to fishing gear ’sizes’. Maybe there is and I just don’t understand it. There must be at least one person out there that understands the "system". Please explain it to those of us who aren’t smart enough to figure it out on our own.

Boy am I rusty on this, but I will give a quick note on what I can rember, which will be mostly pointers to directions rather than simple answers.  The idea of smaller size being a larger number can most easily be explained with sandpaper sizes.  A 100 grit paper is made of grains of sand that are 1/100 inch in diameter.  An 80 grit has 1/80 inch, and a 200 grit has 1/200 inch grains of sand.  A similar thing happens in bullet sizes.  A 22 caliber bullet is 0.22 (or 22 hundredths’) of an inch, a 45  caliber bullet is 0.45 inches in diameter.  Many old style sizes are fractions, and the size is actually the top or bottom number of a fraction where everyone once agreed to keep the other side constant.  I beleive that hook sizes are based on the diameter of the wire used to make them by some old convention like this.   There was once a specified proportion for the size of the gap and length for a given wire size.  Today many people re-invent the scale to accomodate their own idea of what would be a better product, so a Mustad #8 is not the same as a Tiemco #8. . For rod size, the number refers to the weight of line that is required to give the right amount of flex to the rod for casting.  The weight is measured in grains, and the number is proportional to that weight.  Who uses grains to measure any more, and how you convert that to pounds or AFTMA line weight I don’t know anymore.  For tippet size, their are 3 measures that I am familiar with; "x", pound test, and diameter.  Diameter is measured in thousandths of an inch with a micrometer and is expressed as "0.020" or something.  It is very logical and dependable, but not very useful.  Pound test is more useful, ans is measured as the static weight (not bounced) required to break the line.  Finally, "x" is an archaic measure left over from the days when tippets were made of horse hair, and I don’t remember exactly what it refers to, but it supposedly made sense back then (horse sense if you will) and is pretty meaningless today. . Good luck Lenny . .

Response:

Thread and tippet sizes are purely arbitrary.  In the past somebody(s) decided that a particular thickness of thread was size 0 – greater thicknesses have larger numbers, up to a point, where letters take over.  Thinner threads don’t have letters, but use 1/0, 2/0, 3/0…, indicating "below zero" in thickness.  I suppose that had this been done in the more technological twentieth century we could have used negative numbers or actual thicknesses.  Tippets are similar, with the 1x, 2x,.. indicating greater amounts below some arbitrary 0x thickness.

I believe that there is a historical reason that larger tippet sizes are used for thinner tippets.  Originally tippets were made from silk. To reduce the diameter of the tippet it was drawn through progressively smaller dies until the desired thickness was acheived.  0x was the original tippet size without any thinning (.011"). When a tippet had been forced through a die to reduce the size 5 times, it was 5x tippet with a diameter .005" smaller than the original diameter.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just don’t understand any logical reason for the way "sizes" are determined. A 7 wt. rod is lighter than a 9 wt. rod. OK. A 4 wt. line is smaller than a 5 wt. line, but a size 10 hook is smaller than a size 6 hook. A 10 pound test line is stronger than an 8 pound test line, but a 5x tippet is stronger (larger) than a 7x tippet. I don’t understand. Maybe I am just looking for too much logic. A lot of the things that we do are a matter of convention. To tighten something, you turn it to the right, to loosen it, you turn it to the left. To turn on the water, you turn the handle to the left and to turn it off, you turn it to the right. The size with the larger number is the larger size. These are things that are pretty well established.  They follow a logical order of uniformity. (I know there are exceptions). I would think that there would be some order to fishing gear ’sizes’. Maybe there is and I just don’t understand it. There must be at least one person out there that understands the "system". Please explain it to those of us who aren’t smart enough to figure it out on our own.

I understand your confusion.  There are many different "weights" and "sizes" to become familiar with.  The ones you mentioned can be broken down into two categories: 1) based on an absolute meaurement 2) based on a dimensionless "scale" Fly line weights are in the first category, being based on the actual weights of the first thirty feet, I believe, of the line in grains.  Test weights are in the first category, based on actual pull strengths of the line in pounds.  Different physical characteristics, but the numbers are based on some physical measurements, made further confusing by different units. Thread and tippet sizes are purely arbitrary.  In the past somebody(s) decided that a particular thickness of thread was size 0 – greater thicknesses have larger numbers, up to a point, where letters take over.  Thinner threads don’t have letters, but use 1/0, 2/0, 3/0…, indicating "below zero" in thickness.  I suppose that had this been done in the more technological twentieth century we could have used negative numbers or actual thicknesses.  Tippets are similar, with the 1x, 2x,.. indicating greater amounts below some arbitrary 0x thickness.  Of course, to make things more confusing, hook sizes go the opposite way with 1/0, 2/0,… meaning asending sizes above the "0" size hook. Actually there is no "0" size hook, it just goes … 4, 2, 1, 1/0, 2/0… Mark Miller

Response:

I just don’t understand any logical reason for the way "sizes" are determined. A 7 wt. rod is lighter than a 9 wt. rod. OK. A 4 wt. line is smaller than a 5 wt. line, but a size 10 hook is smaller than a size 6 hook. A 10 pound test line is stronger than an 8 pound test line, but a 5x tippet is stronger (larger) than a 7x tippet. I don’t understand. Maybe I am just looking for too much logic. A lot of the things that we do are a matter of convention.

I have wondered about this myself.  Things that are measured in "gauges" seem to be counter-intuitive:  larger numbers are smaller sizes.  Hooks, leader, wire, sheet metal, and nails are all sized this way.  Does anyone know the history behind this measuring convention? To tighten something, you turn it to the right, to loosen it, you turn it to the left. To turn on the water, you turn the handle to the left and to turn it off, you turn it to the right.

This one I can explain.  Think of the faucet handle as a screw cap, which it essentially is.  To turn on the water, you must loosen the screw, and thus turn in to the left.  Turn to the right, or tighten down, to close it and turn off the water. — Hewlett Packard Co.                         Fort Collins, Colorado       "Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a dead geranium."                                             – T.S. Eliot

Response:

Actually, I believe the "X" referred to the number of times a strand of silkworm gut, the old "gut" leader, was drawn through a die to size the material.  Each time the material was drawn through the die, the diameter became smaller since the material was somewhat elastic.  Given the variation in quality from one piece of material to another, the diameter of the material provided a more consistant measuring methodology than lb. test for that particular material.                                                           Mike in PDX                "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                                            Tom McGuane

Response:

<Size/number ordering systems Both hook and tippet size-numbering systems derive from the old needle/hookmaker sizing scheme. Today, this sizing scheme is still carried in the wire trade. A size (gauge) 12 wire is thicker than a size (gauge) 14 and so in. Just be glad we never opted for a denier system! JL 8-Wt Editor

Response:

I have wondered about this myself.  Things that are measured in "gauges" seem to be counter-intuitive:  larger numbers are smaller sizes.  Hooks, leader, wire, sheet metal, and nails are all sized this way.  Does anyone know the history behind this measuring convention?

Ummm, not to be a pain, but the last time I looked in my bags a 16d (penny) nail was roughly 1 1/2 times as large as an 8d. I seem to remember hearing that the size of nails was based on the weight/cost of a fixed number of them, but don’t quote me on it. Also the size of a 16d sinker is different from that of a 16d box. Back to the real topic now… Steve

Response:

Paul, Hook sizes were derived from the needle makers of Redditch in the UK. I believe that the size used to refer to the thicckness of the wire that was used.  Fly line weights are AFTM nos, which I am sure you know already. Personally, I ratherr liked the old system that used letters to denote the tapers, the weight and the like. And in the nicest possible way, can I question your desire to have a logical basis for everything? Half the fun of this sport that it isn’t always predictable.  To paraphrase Oscar Wilde "Order is the sign of a boring mind". Hope thta this does not enflame you to much Chris Enstone – "fishing is just like working except that you do not get paid and you enjoy it"

Response:

I just don’t understand any logical reason for the way "sizes" are determined. A 7 wt. rod is lighter than a 9 wt. rod. OK. A 4 wt. line is smaller than a 5 wt. line, but a size 10 hook is smaller than a size 6 hook. A 10 pound test line is stronger than an 8 pound test line, but a 5x tippet is stronger (larger) than a 7x tippet. I don’t understand. Maybe I am just looking for too much logic. A lot of the things that we do are a matter of convention. To tighten something, you turn it to the right, to loosen it, you turn it to the left. To turn on the water, you turn the handle to the left and to turn it off, you turn it to the right. The size with the larger number is the larger size. These are things that are pretty well established.  They follow a logical order of uniformity. (I know there are exceptions). I would think that there would be some order to fishing gear ’sizes’. Maybe there is and I just don’t understand it. There must be at least one person out there that understands the "system". Please explain it to those of us who aren’t smart enough to figure it out on our own.

Response: