Question:

  When the fight was finally over, I had a mullet in my hands that tipped the scales at 5lbs.  Hooked two more but they escaped.  Don’t know if I will get a chance like that one again any time soon but it was quite a thrill.

Good for you Mu. I remember you mentioning the bread trick in the past. Now you know they will take a baitfish and just this knowledge might result in future success.  Are these the same mullet they have in Florida? I remember John Popp posting about fishing for them in Florida. Willi

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’ve heard that mullet are basically vegetarian in their diet preferences. They consume mostly detritus and kelp.  Throwing bread repeatedly over the course of several days can result in a hookup if a "bread" fly is used once the fish have become accustomed to eating the bread.  Today I came upon a school of mullet that were chasing batifish in the near shore surf. A wave would surge and a school of mullet looking like a horde of surfers could be seen as the wave crested high enough so that light would shine through the aqueous column.  Still, I didn’t expect to hook any but I was hoping that maybe there were other predatory fish lurking about that might hit my fly.  I cast a #4 burnt-orange llama/red-fox squirrel tail/white bucktail clouser into the school of bait and hooked up with a very stong fish. I managed to get it into the shallow water about 15 times before I finally landed it.  This fish made 15 runs!  I thought I had hooked what might’ve been a world record (fly-caught) corbina.  When the fight was finally over, I had a mullet in my hands that tipped the scales at 5lbs.  Hooked two more but they escaped.  Don’t know if I will get a chance like that one again any time soon but it was quite a thrill. Mu

If the mullet were actually chasing baitfish, it would seem that they’re not hard-core vegans after all, in which case a future hookup wouldn’t seem so unlikely… /daytripper (With a name change, Mullet could hit the big time!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve heard that mullet are basically vegetarian in their diet preferences. They consume mostly detritus and kelp.  Throwing bread repeatedly over the course of several days can result in a hookup if a "bread" fly is used once the fish have become accustomed to eating the bread.  Today I came upon a school of mullet that were chasing batifish in the near shore surf. A wave would surge and a school of mullet looking like a horde of surfers could be seen as the wave crested high enough so that light would shine through the aqueous column.  Still, I didn’t expect to hook any but I was hoping that maybe there were other predatory fish lurking about that might hit my fly.  I cast a #4 burnt-orange llama/red-fox squirrel tail/white bucktail clouser into the school of bait and hooked up with a very stong fish. I managed to get it into the shallow water about 15 times before I finally landed it.  This fish made 15 runs!  I thought I had hooked what might’ve been a world record (fly-caught) corbina.  When the fight was finally over, I had a mullet in my hands that tipped the scales at 5lbs.  Hooked two more but they escaped.  Don’t know if I will get a chance like that one again any time soon but it was quite a thrill. Mu

are you sure they weren’t baby tarpon?

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Well done Mu.  Our mullet behave abominably at times. Racing after Clousers looking for all the world like they are going to take, then turn away. Thats during the summer.  During winter they do hit flys quite readily – I think there are a lot less people feeding them bread in winter . Our attempts with bread flies have been pretty ordinary so far with losts of interest but no takers … we put it down to drag in the areas we fish … rocky platform above a reasonable swell isn’t exactly dead-drift water Steve  

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If the mullet were actually chasing baitfish, it would seem that they’re not hard-core vegans after all, in which case a future hookup wouldn’t seem so unlikely… /daytripper (With a name change, Mullet could hit the big time!

Actually this is a very good point.  If bait slingers can catch them on surf gear (or whatever) using local bait species, then the mullet should, in theory, be susceptible to flies.  I guess it depends whether its smell or sight that triggers the take.  We also wondered about their spawning habits and whether this meant they were more like to hit out of aggression (in winter for us). Steve.

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Mu, I had always heard that mullet didn’t take bait.But my experiences tell me other wise.    About 12 years ago i was nightfishing for crappie at a nearby resovoier (drinking water storage , about a mile from Galveston Bay) when i glimpsed shapes that i took for schooling catfish. A better look as they came into my lights showed them to be mullet. At about that time i begain seeing mayflies everywhere around the lights and on the water, the crappie weren’t biting so i got out my flyrod and tied on the closest thing i had. No luck at first but the third or fourth pattern did the trick.not once but 5 or 6 timesbefore they quit biting and went elsewhere. I have tried for years to catch another, but so far zip,zilch, nada, nothing. One magic moment on one magic night. But you are right they do put up a fight that will suprise you.  Keep tring and good luck. Gary "still growing older…but not growing up" I’ve heard that mullet are basically vegetarian in their diet preferences. They consume mostly detritus and kelp.

snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I cast a #4 burnt-orange llama/red-fox squirrel tail/white bucktail clouser into the school of bait and hooked up with a very stong fish. I managed to get it into the shallow water about 15 times before I finally landed it.  This fish made 15 runs!  I thought I had hooked what might’ve been a world record (fly-caught) corbina.  When the fight was finally over, I had a mullet in my hands that tipped the scales at 5lbs.  Hooked two more but they escaped.  Don’t know if I will get a chance like that one again any time soon but it was quite a thrill. Mu

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Good for you Mu. I remember you mentioning the bread trick in the past. Now you know they will take a baitfish and just this knowledge might result in future success.  Are these the same mullet they have in Florida? I remember John Popp posting about fishing for them in Florida.

Not sure if these are the same.  The ones we have here are striped mullet. I’ve seen them go airborne frequently and always wondered what it would be like to hook one.  I just figured it was so unlikely that I never bothered. For some reason they were behaving in a very predatory fashion today.  Back east, mullet are used as bluefish bait. Mu

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve heard that mullet are basically vegetarian in their diet preferences. They consume mostly detritus and kelp.  Throwing bread repeatedly over the course of several days can result in a hookup if a "bread" fly is used once the fish have become accustomed to eating the bread.  Today I came upon a school of mullet that were chasing batifish in the near shore surf. A wave would surge and a school of mullet looking like a horde of surfers could be seen as the wave crested high enough so that light would shine through the aqueous column.  Still, I didn’t expect to hook any but I was hoping that maybe there were other predatory fish lurking about that might hit my fly.  I cast a #4 burnt-orange llama/red-fox squirrel tail/white bucktail clouser into the school of bait and hooked up with a very stong fish. I managed to get it into the shallow water about 15 times before I finally landed it.  This fish made 15 runs!  I thought I had hooked what might’ve been a world record (fly-caught) corbina.  When the fight was finally over, I had a mullet in my hands that tipped the scales at 5lbs.  Hooked two more but they escaped.  Don’t know if I will get a chance like that one again any time soon but it was quite a thrill. Mu

Here in the Netherlands, lacking most of the offical ‘gamefish’, mullet are more and more regarded as the poor mans bonefish. From what I heard from other fishermen they should be catchable with a weedfly, basically a hook with a bunch of green marabou. Colour and shade to match the local weed variety, match the hatch . I tried to catch them a couple of times, but no luck (yet!). When they are not actively feeding they can be hard to spot, and _very_ easily spooked by flylines. YMMV, of course.. Herman —         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

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In article <Pine.SOL.4.33.0203260224520.2990-100000 Back east, mullet are used as bluefish bait.

yeah, but the only ones I’ve seen are in the 5-7" range, not 5-7lb. range!!!

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If the mullet were actually chasing baitfish, it would seem that they’re not hard-core vegans after all, in which case a future hookup wouldn’t seem so unlikely…

It’s rare that I’ve seen this many baitfish so close to shore. /daytripper (With a name change, Mullet could hit the big time!

Moollet the dogs out! Hoo! Hoo! Hoo!

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are you sure they weren’t baby tarpon?

I’ll post a pic once I develop the film. Mu I need to get a digital camera

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Our attempts with bread flies have been pretty ordinary so far with losts of interest but no takers … we put it down to drag in the areas we fish … rocky platform above a reasonable swell isn’t exactly dead-drift water

The waves were gnarled and tortured in the area I was fishing.  I actually tried using an intermediate line for a while since the baitfish were just a few inches below the surface.  For some reason, using a fast sinking line worked out better.  We only hooked up when we tossed our flies right into the fray.  It was sight fishing, only not to a particular fish.  I’d wait for a swell where I could see the fish and then try to quickly cast to the spot.  It was important not to overshoot the line.  I think the sinking line allowed our flies to be distinguishable from the bait. Mu

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You have a better chance than you may think to take that wild ride again. When mullet are actively feeding in quieter waters they are easily caught. The secret is chumming. Get a bag of chicken scratch feed (small pellets not grain), grab a handful, wet it forming a cohesive ball, squeezing excess water out. Throw the ball out into the water. The mullet will come running and form a feeding frenzy. Cast any wetted (so it sinks slowly) brown, small, dry fly into the middle of the feeding fish and hang on. They seem to be seasonable feeders so a hookup out of season is uncommon. Their mouth is very weak and tear easily. Their runs are strong long and reel screaming fast. Not unlike bone fish. A good size mullet on a 3 to 5 wt fly rod (as you already know) is a ball. Keep trying, it’s worth it. — John Popp in Sanford Fl. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve heard that mullet are basically vegetarian in their diet preferences. They consume mostly detritus and kelp.  Throwing bread repeatedly over the course of several days can result in a hookup if a "bread" fly is used once the fish have become accustomed to eating the bread.  Today I came upon a school of mullet that were chasing batifish in the near shore surf. A wave would surge and a school of mullet looking like a horde of surfers could be seen as the wave crested high enough so that light would shine through the aqueous column.  Still, I didn’t expect to hook any but I was hoping that maybe there were other predatory fish lurking about that might hit my fly.  I cast a #4 burnt-orange llama/red-fox squirrel tail/white bucktail clouser into the school of bait and hooked up with a very stong fish. I managed to get it into the shallow water about 15 times before I finally landed it.  This fish made 15 runs!  I thought I had hooked what might’ve been a world record (fly-caught) corbina.  When the fight was finally over, I had a mullet in my hands that tipped the scales at 5lbs.  Hooked two more but they escaped.  Don’t know if I will get a chance like that one again any time soon but it was quite a thrill. Mu

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I had always heard that mullet didn’t take bait.But my experiences tell me other wise. I have tried for years to catch another, but so far zip,zilch, nada, nothing. One magic moment on one magic night.

Yeah, I’m wondering if this is only a once a year sort of thing.  I rarely see so many baitfish within casting distance.  Usually the baitfish are beyond the breakers.  I’d need a 400 ft cast to reach the area where the pelicans are divebombing into the water. Mu

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Everything that’s being said make them sound alot like carp ("freshwater bonefish").

Yes.  In fact sounds very similar.  The fish actually looks like a large minnow.  The ones we have here have stripes faintly reminiscent of striped bass. It’s cool you chanced upon some actively feeding mullet (on active prey), but if they are like carp, it might be a few years before it happens again.

The other option is a long leader and a kelp fly on floating line.  The likelihood of one taking a kelp fly when there’s so much of the natural stuff floating around is minimal. Mu

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Cast any wetted (so it sinks slowly) brown,

We tried several different flies but you’re right, brown definitely seemed to trigger the best response even though these fish were chasing baitfish. A good size mullet on a 3 to 5 wt fly rod (as you already know) is a ball

I was using a Scott STS 9 wt saltwater rod with a 12 lb tippet.  In protected waters a 5 or 6 weight would probably have been adequate.  In fact, considering their reputation for being easily spooked, a light line may in fact be necessary when fishing for them in harbors and estuaries. Mu

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are you sure they weren’t baby tarpon? I’ll post a pic once I develop the film. Mu I need to get a digital camera

…my elbow is lactating in anticipation of the suckle of your photos…. jeff (well, the catholic priest thing is gettin old)

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…my elbow is lactating in anticipation of the suckle of your photos…. jeff (well, the catholic priest thing is gettin old)

And you wonder why I didn’t want my socks back?  Jeez! Wolfgang man, that’s just WRONG!        :(

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I’ve only twice had carp "hit" an active fly, indicating they were interested in feeding on something that might get away. Mostly they’re just sucking up whatever is around if it smells good or looks good or whatever else goes through their pea-brain. Very challenging to catch.

If you don’t regard it as unethical (I would, but that’s because I’d not want to eat a carp and I’d feel bad about catching them on purpose), you could try chumming for them with commercial popcorn. I’ve fed them sometimes and they’ll get darn near up to my hand for the stuff.  Chum first and then drop in a floating line with popcorn on the hook.   — rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

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Now you’re on to it (gear wise). I fish for them in the inter coastal waterway but at certain times of the year they come up the St.Johns river almost to the head waters.At these times the banks are wall to wall fishermen with all kinds of gear including cane poles. In my case a 3wt fly rod. — John Popp in Sanford Fl. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cast any wetted (so it sinks slowly) brown, We tried several different flies but you’re right, brown definitely seemed to trigger the best response even though these fish were chasing baitfish. A good size mullet on a 3 to 5 wt fly rod (as you already know) is a ball I was using a Scott STS 9 wt saltwater rod with a 12 lb tippet.  In protected waters a 5 or 6 weight would probably have been adequate.  In fact, considering their reputation for being easily spooked, a light line may in fact be necessary when fishing for them in harbors and estuaries. Mu

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And you wonder why I didn’t want my socks back?  Jeez! Wolfgang man, that’s just WRONG!        :(

shh…i’m workin the boots angle now, maybe a rod and reel.  socks were just an appetizer…  bring plenty of gear to penns. <g jeff

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When I was in Japan, we caught mullet on small shrimp. I was fishing for a different type of fish but on occasion we’d catch a mullet. Very smelly fish but well worth the fight. I imagine a small shrimp pattern would work. Tsuribaka

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If you don’t regard it as unethical (I would, but that’s because I’d not want to eat a carp and I’d feel bad about catching them on purpose), you could try chumming for them with commercial popcorn. I’ve fed them sometimes and they’ll get darn near up to my hand for the stuff.  Chum first and then drop in a floating line with popcorn on the hook.

My friend said he caught many carp from the Colorado River on a 6 wt while staying at a casino in Laughlin, Nevada.  Apparently, the fish are so used to guests throwing popcorn that a white fly would get attacked immediately. Mu

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When I was in Japan, we caught mullet on small shrimp. I was fishing for a different type of fish but on occasion we’d catch a mullet. Very smelly fish but well worth the fight. I imagine a small shrimp pattern would work.

These mullet didn’t smell very much.  Barracuda and smelt can be stinky around our local waters.  Here’s a photo www.umich.edu/~muyoung/mullet.jpg

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I’ve heard that mullet are basically vegetarian in their diet preferences. They consume mostly detritus and kelp.  Throwing bread repeatedly over the course of several days can result in a hookup if a "bread" fly is used once the fish have become accustomed to eating the bread.  Today I came upon a school of mullet that were chasing batifish in the near shore surf. A wave would surge and a school of mullet looking like a horde of surfers could be seen as the wave crested high enough so that light would shine through the aqueous column.  Still, I didn’t expect to hook any but I was hoping that maybe there were other predatory fish lurking about that might hit my fly.  I cast a #4 burnt-orange llama/red-fox squirrel tail/white bucktail clouser into the school of bait and hooked up with a very stong fish. I managed to get it into the shallow water about 15 times before I finally landed it.  This fish made 15 runs!  I thought I had hooked what might’ve been a world record (fly-caught) corbina.  When the fight was finally over, I had a mullet in my hands that tipped the scales at 5lbs.  Hooked two more but they escaped.  Don’t know if I will get a chance like that one again any time soon but it was quite a thrill. Mu

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Question:

Wayne Knight: (envious story snipped) Oh yea, I’ve still never been stumped in MO

Here we are sittin’ out a snow storm and you’re fishing!  ’Tain’t fair.  It was a good day, Wayne, just to be out there. Dave L.

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Ok, Forty you asked for it….

Thanks, big guy. Always nice to read of a friends fishin’ trip while stuck up here in the snow. — Ken Fortenberry

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Ok, Forty you asked for it…. Thanks, big guy. Always nice to read of a friends fishin’ trip while stuck up here in the snow.

FWIW, they are calling for snow here tonight and tomorrow. Sure hope it does not impede my flight home to Geneva on Friday. Hopefully tho, my daughter will have the driveway and sidewalks shoveled for me by the time I do get home. — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas Before you buy.

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[trip snip] Thank you Kerry for a great time, and if any of you out there ever decide to visit SW Missouri for a little fishing, be sure and drop Kerry an email. Oh yea, I’ve still never been stumped in MO — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas Before you buy.

Y’know that’s really cruel to post such a report to the snowbound.  :)

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Ok, Forty you asked for it…. I drove out of Kansas to Aurora Mo this past weekend where I met up with Kerry Evans, a contributor to the board, and a long time resident of SW Missouri. Crane is a creek I’ve been hearing about for about a year and wanted to try, plus it is about the closest real trout water to Halstead KS, being only 260 miles away, and whatever it’s faults as a fishing destination, eastern Kansas has some damn good roads <g. All things being equal, I would have prefered to let the weather change a little more but not having seen a trout since October I was going through withdrawal symptons. After meeting for breakfast, I followed Kerry to the creek. Yup the water is low, reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelly low, and it was is gin clear. The only other time I’ve seen water this clear has been in WI spring creeks in the fall, never in the winter. Kerry did his best to put me over fish, even though the water was low, there were enough deep pools to support fish. Funny thing with a couple of exceptions we would fish the pools and see nothing and then cross the stream in 6" water and see fish scattering away from us…..There was this one pool which we saw several fish, but just could not get them to take our offerings. We did find some rising fish and we did our best to put them down Being winter, while there was some insect activity on the surface, the bugs were small. A size 20 Griffith’s Gnat might as well been a #10 Green Drake, these bugs were that small. Yours truly at the start was casting, if you want to call it that, as if I was just learning what a fly rod was having forgot my backcast, drink, forward cast routine…..and I probably had a false since of security, it being winter and all was not being too careful with the brush around the stream. I admit, I was cocky, I had never been stumped in Missouri before and really did not want to stealth my overweight out of shape self. Kerry was great, he is a fine fly fisher, a super guy, and to boot, he builds a rather nice rod too. But as sometimes happen, he too could not connect fly with fish. Finally, about halfway down the section we were fishing, we came upon a pool with two risers, Kerry being the gracious host he was, offered the pool to me. I figured screw it on the small stuff and tied on a favorite Michigan pattern, a size 14 parachute Robert’s Drake figuring that maybe the bow’s wanted a real meal for a change. After deteriming the first riser was a little one, I did my best Fortenberry imitation and slid along the pool side and side armed cast the drake under a tree branch to the other riser…..I was rewarded with a healthy bow which turned out to be the only fish of the day. Though the fishing was tough, and frankly had we been a little more careful, we might have been better rewarded, but we only saw one other fisherman and last we checked, he had not been successful. The creek needs some water but I will be back and will be better prepared next time. I bet in spring and fall colors the stream scenery is just dynamite. And Kerry told me about some other streams which have not been written about, they will stay a secret but I will be visiting them too! Thank you Kerry for a great time, and if any of you out there ever decide to visit SW Missouri for a little fishing, be sure and drop Kerry an email. Oh yea, I’ve still never been stumped in MO — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas Before you buy.

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Question:

Being a new guy here, I don’t know shit…(get out the keyboard soap) but evidently Mikey must live in a coutry where they charge by the minute for phones and access….without experimenting until my brain slips a cog (happens often-sorry) wouldn’t it be possible to download this newsgroup on a regular basis, zip the files and e-mail them to him?? wouldn’t that save him a few bucks  (400 is much more than a few)….?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Left for the following reasons (in order): 1. Spam 2. Indian Rights 3. USA vs. Brits 4. Nasty emails vis-a-vis #2 & 3 5. #1-3 cost him over $400 last month. Says he doubts that he will return. — Ken Fortenberry I started the USA vs Brits thread as an attempt to lighten the mood of the posts that were being made at that particular time.

Actually, a Brit named Tony Deacon started the whole thing (not that particular thread) with a totally gratuitous insult of American culture. When someone insults a country on Usenet you can expect angry replies, and rightly so. The "Indian Rights" thing started when someone posted a claim that commercial fishing, not the Lower Snake dams, was responsible for the decline of the Snake River salmon, and that morphed into Indian Rights. A thread that to one person is nothing but off-topic rants might be very interesting to someone else. I found the Indian Rights thread to have value, once you got past the race baiting, but I can see why a European might get bored by it. Some Europeans seem miffed that Usenet is dominated by Yanks. Too bad. Let them post some European-specific stuff. I won’t mind at all. I thought Mike Connor changed his telephone to a flat-rate service. Why the $400? It’s really no one’s responsibility in ROFF to keep Mike’s or anyone else’s Usenet-related bills down. Hell, we can reduce them to nearly zero by just shutting down the whole thing. I hope MC returns. I liked some of his doggerel verse and his prose fiction, he obviously knows a lot about many kinds of fishing, he added a welcome and needed European perspective to ROFF, and he’s generally a very smart and creative person. But I’m not going to lose any sleep over it. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Actually, a Brit named Tony Deacon started the whole thing (not that particular thread) with a totally gratuitous insult of American culture.

The fact of the matter is it started off as a joke.  Tony and I were joking around,at least that was the impression that I got.  Some people took this a little too serious and then the thread ended up with threats.  I think that is what really pissed Mike off. Believe me RW, I am not losing any sleep over this either.  It does bother me because Mike was a valuable source of knowledge.  I was constantly amazed at the amount of info that man had locked in his brain housing group.  The part that I liked most was that he didn’t try and make you feel stupid about it either. I sent Mike an email once expressing my appreciation for his help on several things I had questions with.  Mike would typically point me in the direction so that I could research the topic on my own and give me a few pointers of his own.  It was always short, helpful and contributed greatly to my own knowledge base. I am not saying that Mike C was the only person with lots of knowledge on a broad variety of topics, but he was a class act that is going to be missed by those who ask lots of questions around here.  Not to mention his writings….. Warren

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It won’t be the same as having him on ROFF, but he does write a column and have a chat  group on "Fly Anglers on Line" http://www.flyanglersonline.com/ Ernie Harrison See Ernie’s Fly-Fishing Stuff:   http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, a Brit named Tony Deacon started the whole thing (not that particular thread) with a totally gratuitous insult of American culture. The fact of the matter is it started off as a joke.  Tony and I were joking around,at least that was the impression that I got.  Some people took this a little too serious and then the thread ended up with threats.  I think that is what really pissed Mike off. Believe me RW, I am not losing any sleep over this either.  It does bother me because Mike was a valuable source of knowledge.  I was constantly amazed at the amount of info that man had locked in his brain housing group.  The part that I liked most was that he didn’t try and make you feel stupid about it either. I sent Mike an email once expressing my appreciation for his help on several things I had questions with.  Mike would typically point me in the direction so that I could research the topic on my own and give me a few pointers of his own.  It was always short, helpful and contributed greatly to my own knowledge base. I am not saying that Mike C was the only person with lots of knowledge on a broad variety of topics, but he was a class act that is going to be missed by those who ask lots of questions around here.  Not to mention his writings….. Warren

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        have i missed something here?  where the hell has connor gone? vacation?  work?  pissed?  under arrest? wayno

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        have i missed something here?  where the hell has connor gone? vacation?  work?  pissed?  under arrest?

Left for the following reasons (in order): 1. Spam 2. Indian Rights 3. USA vs. Brits 4. Nasty emails vis-a-vis #2 & 3 5. #1-3 cost him over $400 last month. Says he doubts that he will return. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 3 – Tar Heels 1

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Says he doubts that he will return. — Ken Fortenberry

What a shame.  One of the more enjoyable personalities on ROFF, IMO.  Always enjoyed his stories. Keith Brewster

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Left for the following reasons (in order): 1. Spam 2. Indian Rights 3. USA vs. Brits 4. Nasty emails vis-a-vis #2 & 3 5. #1-3 cost him over $400 last month. Says he doubts that he will return. — Ken Fortenberry

I started the USA vs Brits thread as an attempt to lighten the mood of the posts that were being made at that particular time. I in no way meant to hurt anybody’s feelings and if you look at the original post I think that is evident.  Mike was usually the first one  that responded to me when I would post a question and I will surely miss him if he is truly gone. Mike, if you were offended in any way by my USA vs Brit post, I apologize. Tim

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Could it possibly be that he is busy with personal things? He’ll be back.  He’s just busy.  Mike is not the type of man that would go away in a snit without saying good-bye. I miss him but will not help to clutter up his mail box by e-mailing him.  Just give him a little room, folks.   Dave LaCourse

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He told me the same in an email over the weekend.  I surmised that he is very busy as well, but the tone of his message didn’t leave me with the impression that he was interested in returning to this happy band. Tom — Tom Brown The Signal Group Wake Forest, NC It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone.  War was always here.  Before man was, war waited for him.  The ultimate trade awaiting the ultimate practitioner.                                                 Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Left for the following reasons (in order): 1. Spam 2. Indian Rights 3. USA vs. Brits 4. Nasty emails vis-a-vis #2 & 3 5. #1-3 cost him over $400 last month. Says he doubts that he will return. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 3 – Tar Heels 1

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He told me the same in an email over the weekend.  I surmised that he is very busy as well, but the tone of his message didn’t leave me with the impression that he was interested in returning to this happy band.

What a whimp. He leaves, we grieves, and goze limp. He didn’t say bye… I wonder why… Not gonna cry… just wonder why. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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… He didn’t say bye… I wonder why…

He’s a class act, that’s why. If one decides to filter another poster or unsubscribe from a newsgroup one simply does so. No whiny recriminations, wounded, emotional farewells or parting shots necessary or appropriate. Mike’s last post was titled "Guilty". It was eloquent, and as appropriate a farewell as I’ve seen. — Ken Fortenberry

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What a whimp. He leaves, we grieves, and goze limp. He didn’t say bye… I wonder why… Not gonna cry… just wonder why. Your pal, "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Mike evidently never considered it necessary to remind anyone on this group that he was "Your pal," and he was right.  Your constant reminder notwithstanding I suspect few will miss you as much as we will Mike. "Guilt debased the meal…"

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What a whimp. He leaves, we grieves, and goze limp. He didn’t say bye… I wonder why… Not gonna cry… just wonder why. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

He did say bye, He did say why, He just didn’t serve it up Like yesterday’s pie. Peter

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He didn’t say bye…

I think it was when you were off sulking the latest time. — Charlie…

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Good one Charlie Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He didn’t say bye… I think it was when you were off sulking the latest time. — Charlie…

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EEEHH   GADS! Come back Mikey – all other verse is worthless without ye! RalphH

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What a whimp. He leaves, we grieves, and goze limp. He didn’t say bye… I wonder why… Not gonna cry… just wonder why. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" He did say bye, He did say why, He just didn’t serve it up Like yesterday’s pie. Peter

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If it is indeed true that Mike has left for the reasons listed below, then I’m inclined to think that the whole "ROFF is Darwinian" concept isn’t as great as some have made it out to be. I for one thought Mike’s posts were a rare species worth protecting from extinction. Steve Zimmerman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Left for the following reasons (in order): 1. Spam 2. Indian Rights 3. USA vs. Brits 4. Nasty emails vis-a-vis #2 & 3 5. #1-3 cost him over $400 last month. Says he doubts that he will return.

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Bullseye! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What a whimp. He leaves, we grieves, and goze limp. He didn’t say bye… I wonder why… Not gonna cry… just wonder why. Your pal, "Guilt replaced the creel…" Mike evidently never considered it necessary to remind anyone on this group that he was "Your pal," and he was right.  Your constant reminder notwithstanding I suspect few will miss you as much as we will Mike. "Guilt debased the meal…"

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Question:

I need some help finding information on spin fishing in Wyoming (Yellowstone area).  All the books and sites that I visit are for fly fishing.  If anyone has some information on this subject I would appreciate it.

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Don’t be intimidated.  Tiny 1/8 to 1/16 ounce spoons in brass, silver, and copper will take all trout in all rivers (and all but the biggest lakes) in Wyoming.   Check the regulations, however.  Sometimes, when it says "…single hook artificial only…" you think it means fly fishing only.  If tiey mean fly only, they will say so. Try to use bait anywhere, and you will probably be shot, burried, and your car pushed into a canyon. Fishing in the park isn’t much good, and the crowds are horrible.  Try the Shoshone River just west of Cody, or the Green, north of Pinedale.  Few tourists fish either place. good luck oz

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I lived in West Yellowstone( west enterance to Yellowstone. There are several rivers west of the park that are great for spin fishing. Also there is a lake naned Quake lake that has BIG trout. Henry’s lake is also great.  There are lots of beaver ponds. the choises are there.

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View Wyoming’s new lure for trout at http://www.fishcatchwy.qpg.com

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Question:

Has anybody herd of a train derailment / diesel spill on Cayuga Inlet South of Ithaca NY ?  If so can you post the details. tnx

Response:

I was fishing in Ithaca in November and signs were posted by the DEC all along the Cayuga Inlet  forbidding fishing until further notice due to diesel fuel contamination.

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I was fishing in Ithaca in November and signs were posted by the DEC all along the Cayuga Inlet  forbidding fishing until further notice due to diesel fuel contamination.

I had an article on the spill from the Syracuse Herald (?) on my site about three weeks ago.  I don’t know if the story is still up on their site, but I know my link is still up.  Check the Fishing News section, http://www.geocities.com/Baja/3297/fishing.htm Mark Cahill’s Fishing New England – Daily Fishing News Also, a deja news search may turn up a post in this group at about the same time.  I forget who posted it, but he had fairly good detail on the spill. As I recall he reported a whole bunch of floating trout. — Mark Cahill For E-mail remove the _Remove_This from the reply to address. http://www.geocities.com/Baja/3297/fishing.htm Mark Cahill’s Fishing New England – Daily Fishing News http://www.reel-time.com/ The Internet Journal of Saltwater Fly Fishing – Metropolitan Boston Regional Editor

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******* I was fishing in Ithaca in November and signs were posted by the DEC all along the Cayuga Inlet  forbidding fishing until further notice due to diesel fuel contamination. In a situation like this, is fishing forbidden or just keeping and eating? Why? William Buchman

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Question:

thanks for clarifying those aspects of your post I didn’t quite grasp re: comets. here in rainy BC we don’t get to see the sky much! Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :   : : So? Why don’t you show the kind of guts we’ve shown in BC and enact : : regulations that reduce the level of pressure on those rivers; those rivers : :  belong to the residents of those states! Check out the regs for BC rivers : :  like the Dean! Non-residents have to pay more; they have to use a guide : : they may have to enter a lottery for a right to fish – : : : and yes I support the use of lottery entrance where the demand for access : : exceeds the resources capacity!   : : : Ralph, IMHO, lottery and fee based restrictions you advocate run contrary to : many of the arguments you made in your post.  These methods will result in : only the elite getting access, because the non-elite cannot afford guides and : expensive fees for a few hours of fishing.   : Whoever the elite are?  Is a fellow who hires a guide for 2 days on the : SanJuan but never at any other point in the year a member of the elite?  Are : your own irrational prejudices showing through?  Personally I have never : hired a guide.        I have, made me feel elite and I did not necessarily like it.  Point is that the outfitters do create limits on access to the people not wishing to spend that kind of money. : Personally I would have no problem with paying more for a licence than I do : now or paying a stream fee that is reasonable and doesn’t make it impossible : for most fishers to enjoy a good number of days on the water.        Neither do I.  I do not mind if the access is equally open to all of us, however the local outfitters are capable of and frequently do consume all the access available on private-fee fisheries and thus make the effective cost much,much higher.  That prices the opportunity out of reach for most. : My point is:  Tim and yourself seem obsessed with the problems of a few : waters.  To solve that problem they would radically alter our access to all : waters and even more radically alter how we act on them; force us to kill, : force us to be instruments of harvest and not sportsmen.        I do not, nor have I ever advocated **forcing** anyone to kill.  I limit my kill to as low a level as I can.  I have not consumed a trout for food in as long as I can remember.  I advocate allowing limited harvest rather than pure C&R.  I thought my post had made that clear. : I argue it is possible to regulate waters such as this individually to : reduce the problem and force anglers to spread out but overall maintain : general access and a pluralistic approach to harvest issues that allow : individuals to follow a variety of viewpoints.        This is precisely what I meant to say, only I argue that pure C&R is not the only approach and in most cases, it is unjustifyable. : If you don’t like it any more give it up and take up bird watching!        Thanks, but I prefer comets. — Hewlett Packard, ESL R&D, MS55 Ft. Collins, CO  80525

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:   : : So? Why don’t you show the kind of guts we’ve shown in BC and enact : : regulations that reduce the level of pressure on those rivers; those rivers : :  belong to the residents of those states! Check out the regs for BC rivers : :  like the Dean! Non-residents have to pay more; they have to use a guide : : they may have to enter a lottery for a right to fish – : : : and yes I support the use of lottery entrance where the demand for access : : exceeds the resources capacity!   : : : Ralph, IMHO, lottery and fee based restrictions you advocate run contrary to : many of the arguments you made in your post.  These methods will result in : only the elite getting access, because the non-elite cannot afford guides and : expensive fees for a few hours of fishing.   : Whoever the elite are?  Is a fellow who hires a guide for 2 days on the : SanJuan but never at any other point in the year a member of the elite?  Are : your own irrational prejudices showing through?  Personally I have never : hired a guide.         I have, made me feel elite and I did not necessarily like it.  Point is that the outfitters do create limits on access to the people not wishing to spend that kind of money. : Personally I would have no problem with paying more for a licence than I do : now or paying a stream fee that is reasonable and doesn’t make it impossible : for most fishers to enjoy a good number of days on the water.         Neither do I.  I do not mind if the access is equally open to all of us, however the local outfitters are capable of and frequently do consume all the access available on private-fee fisheries and thus make the effective cost much,much higher.  That prices the opportunity out of reach for most. : My point is:  Tim and yourself seem obsessed with the problems of a few : waters.  To solve that problem they would radically alter our access to all : waters and even more radically alter how we act on them; force us to kill, : force us to be instruments of harvest and not sportsmen.         I do not, nor have I ever advocated **forcing** anyone to kill.  I limit my kill to as low a level as I can.  I have not consumed a trout for food in as long as I can remember.  I advocate allowing limited harvest rather than pure C&R.  I thought my post had made that clear. : I argue it is possible to regulate waters such as this individually to : reduce the problem and force anglers to spread out but overall maintain : general access and a pluralistic approach to harvest issues that allow : individuals to follow a variety of viewpoints.         This is precisely what I meant to say, only I argue that pure C&R is not the only approach and in most cases, it is unjustifyable. : If you don’t like it any more give it up and take up bird watching!         Thanks, but I prefer comets. — Hewlett Packard, ESL R&D, MS55 Ft. Collins, CO  80525

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here in the northern Sweden I’m not obliged to release the browns, graylings or char I catch. I’ll do it anyway, out of respect of nature Hans, I am afraid that you too have been lulled in to believing that the disrespect of hooking nature in the face with a hook can be mitigated by its release.  This ‘respect of nature’ argument is the most ludicrous and hypocritical reason for pure C&R that I can think of.  If you *truly* respected our wild friends, you would *not* fish for them, you would leave them alone, would you not ? Respectfully, — TimW Halfordian Golfer

No Tim, I haven’t been lulled into anything. It’s a personal belief that has grown and matured during my 20 years of flyfishing. If C&R is done properly, i.e without touching the fish when possible and reducing the time of the fight, it beats the hell out of C&K. You’re right about one thing – it is best to leave them alone. Knocking everything you catch on the head is however both much more disrespectful to the pray than letting them go, and is simply a practise that belongs to the past. Sincerely, Hans Edman, Umea, Sweden

Response:

No Tim, I haven’t been lulled into anything. It’s a personal belief that has grown and matured during my 20 years of flyfishing. If C&R is done properly, i.e without touching the fish when possible and reducing the time of the fight, it beats the hell out of C&K. You’re right about one thing – it is best to leave them alone. Knocking everything you catch on the head is however both much more disrespectful to the pray than letting them go, and is simply a practise that belongs to the past.

Hans – You can’t seriously debate with someone who *screams* about how heinous it is to scar a fish’s face and then let it go, but who freely admits to dragging fish around on a stringer while float-tubing because it keeps them fresh. Hell, use of a priest to euthanize the fish would be much *more* respectful and considerate than that. The *only* thing important to this guy is to go on feeling good about his right to kill fish when and wherever he wants. Don’t waste your breath treating with him or your time thinking he has a coherent point to argue. Only day before yesterday, Tim W said: ….and now I’m movin’ on…you either get it or you don’t…

And this, in debate terms, is called ‘begging the question’. I rest my case. and then said: No more C&R diatribe from me…

QED I am only trying to clue you in because I don’t recall seeing your name on posts before (forgive me if I am mistaken). I am probably rash in posting this, because, as you may have observed, we’ve been trying to shut debate on this topic down for a while (and maybe drop the animosity level a notch or two). May work, may not. Here’s hoping. — Lon Hall Applied Intelligence Group, Inc. Home #: (405)359-1556 Work #: (405)936-2389 "Eat the rich. The poor are tough and stringy."

Response:

Lon Hall writes: Hans – You can’t seriously debate with someone who *screams* about how heinous it is to scar a fish’s face and then let it go, but who freely admits to dragging fish around on a stringer while float-tubing because it keeps them fresh. Hell, use of a priest to euthanize the fish would be much *more* respectful and considerate than that. The *only* thing important to this guy is to go on feeling good about his right to kill fish when and wherever he wants. Don’t waste your breath treating with him or your time thinking he has a coherent point to argue.

(snip) I am only trying to clue you in because I don’t recall seeing your name on posts before (forgive me if I am mistaken). I am probably rash in posting this, because, as you may have observed, we’ve been trying to shut debate on this topic down for a while (and maybe drop the animosity level a notch or two).

Thanks Lon, for dropping the animosity level down a notch or two. jim

Response:

Well spoken, Ralph! Here in the northern Sweden I’m not obliged to release the browns, graylings or char I catch. I’ll do it anyway, out of respect of nature Hans, I am afraid that you too have been lulled in to believing that the disrespect of hooking nature in the face with a hook can be mitigated by its release.  This ‘respect of nature’ argument is the most ludicrous and hypocritical reason for pure C&R that I can think of.  If you *truly* respected our wild friends, you would *not* fish for them, you would leave them alone, would you not ?

Sounds like your argument is "If you hook it, kill it – otherwise don’t fish". Gee, I sure hope you never lose control of a cast and end up hooking yourself.  "Yipes!  Hooked myself!  Better go shoot myself now…" <BANG!  <thud  (I can see the obituary page now – "Catch and Kill Fisherman Was True To His Sport".  :-) If I followed that logic where I fish most often I’d soon be out of fish.  It’s a small pond that probably has only a dozen or so good-sized bass in it.  If I killed each one I caught there wouldn’t be many left now, so I put ‘em back after I catch ‘em. My point is that what’s correct for you may not be correct for others in different situations, and vice versa.  Ah well, diff’rent strokes and all… — Bob Jarvis Mail addresses hacked to foil automailers! Remove ‘_spamless’ from reply address

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well spoken, Ralph! Here in the northern Sweden I’m not obliged to release the browns, graylings or char I catch. I’ll do it anyway, out of respect of nature Hans, I am afraid that you too have been lulled in to believing that the disrespect of hooking nature in the face with a hook can be mitigated by its release.  This ‘respect of nature’ argument is the most ludicrous and hypocritical reason for pure C&R that I can think of.  If you *truly* respected our wild friends, you would *not* fish for them, you would leave them alone, would you not ? Respectfully, — TimW Halfordian Golfer

           TIM,    IF YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU JUST WROTE THAN YOU SHOULD RESPECT THE FISH AND QUIT TRYING TO CATCH THEM  OR ARE YOU JUST ANOTHER  HYPOCRITE WHO LIKES TO HEAR HIMSELF PASS GAS.                    HARV

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip : – I WILL NOT ACCEPT BEING LABELLED AS A GREEDY PERSON BY SOMEONE :    WHOSE AVOWED INTENTION IS TO ENACT RULES AND REGULATIONS THAT :   LIMIT FISHING OPPORTUNITIES TO A FEW SO HIS PLEASURE IS IMPEDED BY :     THE MINIMUM NUMBER OF PEOPLE POSSIBLE! : You are out to enhance your pleasure at the expense of the pleasure of : others! <snip Tim, correct me if I am wrong….  I is my understanding from reading Tim’s posts, that he does not oppose releasing a fish…  But rather opposes the existence of *pure* C&R fisheries.  Pure C&R fisheries lead to many evils, scarred & damaged fish, unusuall

Tim has certainly stated clearly that by lottery or by some enforced c&k regulation on all waters he wants to see fishing pressure reduced to the minimum number of anglers per mile. he has been all over the map on how to do this but Tim clearly has a prejudice against others who use the waters in ways he does not favour and will stoop to all sorts of regulations etc to get them off so he can enjoy his sport on his terms at their expense. : So? Why don’t you show the kind of guts we’ve shown in BC and enact : regulations that reduce the level of pressure on those rivers; those rivers :  belong to the residents of those states! Check out the regs for BC rivers :  like the Dean! Non-residents have to pay more; they have to use a guide : they may have to enter a lottery for a right to fish – : and yes I support the use of lottery entrance where the demand for access : exceeds the resources capacity!   Ralph, IMHO, lottery and fee based restrictions you advocate run contrary to many of the arguments you made in your post.  These methods will result in only the elite getting access, because the non-elite cannot afford guides and expensive fees for a few hours of fishing.  

Whoever the elite are? Is a fellow who hires a guide for 2 days on the SanJuan but never at any other point in the year a member of the elite? Are your own irrational prejudices showing through? Personally I have never hired a guide. Personally I would have no problem with paying more for a licence than I do now or paying a stream fee that is reasonable and doesn’t make it impossible for most fishers to enjoy a good number of days on the water. My point is: Tim and yourself seem obsessed with the problems of a few waters. To solve that problem they would radically alter our access to all waters and even more radically alter how we act on them; force us to kill, force us to be instruments of harvest and not sportsmen. I argue it is possible to regulate waters such as this individually to reduce the problem and force anglers to spread out but overall maintain general access and a pluralistic approach to harvest issues that allow individuals to follow a variety of viewpoints. After jousting with Don Quixote for a number of months I still don’t know what his bottom line is or what he is really after. I find increasingly I am dealing with a point of view that is self righteous, closed minded, hypocritical, sees the resource and the sport as exclusively for those that share the point of view and shifts and gets more radical as one finds legitimate criticism of it’s basic proposals. I also find it is a point of view that assumes it has a sort of papal infallability and is beyond criticism. just look at his response to the criticism of his use of stringers. Any level of agony inflicted on fish is justified as long as he is the one who is inflicting it! Because he eats the catch he has given himself carte blanche to something approaching sadism. If you don’t like it any more give it up and take up bird watching! Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Hewlett Packard, ESL R&D, MS55 Ft. Collins, CO  80525

Response:

Well spoken, Ralph! Here in the northern Sweden I’m not obliged to release the browns, graylings or char I catch. I’ll do it anyway, out of respect of nature

Hans, I am afraid that you too have been lulled in to believing that the disrespect of hooking nature in the face with a hook can be mitigated by its release.  This ‘respect of nature’ argument is the most ludicrous and hypocritical reason for pure C&R that I can think of.  If you *truly* respected our wild friends, you would *not* fish for them, you would leave them alone, would you not ? Respectfully, — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

<snip : – I WILL NOT ACCEPT BEING LABELLED AS A GREEDY PERSON BY SOMEONE :    WHOSE AVOWED INTENTION IS TO ENACT RULES AND REGULATIONS THAT :   LIMIT FISHING OPPORTUNITIES TO A FEW SO HIS PLEASURE IS IMPEDED BY :     THE MINIMUM NUMBER OF PEOPLE POSSIBLE! : You are out to enhance your pleasure at the expense of the pleasure of : others! <snip Tim, correct me if I am wrong….  I is my understanding from reading Tim’s posts, that he does not oppose releasing a fish…  But rather opposes the existence of *pure* C&R fisheries.  Pure C&R fisheries lead to many evils, scarred & damaged fish, unusually crowded and overfished stretches of rivers, and the threat of PETA attacking our sport.   We could change the regulation to a slot limit on most pure C&R fisheries without diminishing the fish significantly and then allow the taking of the older, scarred up fish.  This *for me* would much improve the fishing experience because I personally do not like catching torn up scarred up fish like you find consistently in the locations listed below.

:       There is no quality of experience left in the following pure C&R waters: :       The San Juan below Navajo Dam.  The Frying Pan below Reudi. :       The Green below Flaming Gorge.  The Uncompaghre below Ridgway. :       The South Platte (God rest her soul) below Cheesman canyon. :       If you think that pure C&R has enhanced your experience in these :       places then you will never ever understand the truth.   : So? Why don’t you show the kind of guts we’ve shown in BC and enact : regulations that reduce the level of pressure on those rivers; those rivers :  belong to the residents of those states! Check out the regs for BC rivers :  like the Dean! Non-residents have to pay more; they have to use a guide : they may have to enter a lottery for a right to fish – : and yes I support the use of lottery entrance where the demand for access : exceeds the resources capacity!   We already have a few lottery situations in the regulations of hunting.  I believe this will ultimately become a necessary solution if the popularity of fishing continues to increase at the rate we have seen in the past few years. While I would not like the restriction of access at all, I would enjoy the fishing experience much more assuming the lottery is fairly administered. This however will not happen because the outfitters will demand an unfair share of the access to maintain their businesses.   Ralph, IMHO, lottery and fee based restrictions you advocate run contrary to many of the arguments you made in your post.  These methods will result in only the elite getting access, because the non-elite cannot afford guides and expensive fees for a few hours of fishing.  Also, *I believe* lottery systems will unfairly favor the guides who will find ways to obtain more than their fair share of access permits to further their business. You can argue that a lottery system already exists in this way….  First to a fishing hole gets the spot.  The guides on many rivers in our area arrive very early (or have a paid flunky get there) and stake out the best fishing holes on the river.  They bring their sports (elitists who have the bucks to hire a guide to grab and hold the best water) to these spots and stay there all day.  You will find this happening alot on the Pan and So Platte.  On the floatable rivers, the guides get more than their fair share for float permits, thus again limiting access to the elite. These are complex problems which will get nothing but worse as population increases in our area.  I fish now and enjoy it very much, but I do not expect to fish nearly as much in the future as the quality of the experience continues to diminish with the pressure of multitudes.  One can only hope that Hollywood does not make another movie about flyfishing. — Hewlett Packard, ESL R&D, MS55 Ft. Collins, CO  80525

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tim, you should change your handle to Don Quioxte; you put so much effort into tilting at wind mills! TimW writes:    The neighbor’s collie still craps on the lawn even after Eddie    throws snowballs at it.. [snip] Your dog poop "thing" reminds me of a funny story: A friend went to complain to his neighbour about the neighbours dog crapping on his lawn. As they stood discussing the issue – of course the neighbour contested his dog would never do such a thing – the dog wandered over into my friends yard and dumped in plain sight of both of them. That’s exactly what’s happened here!    You and many pure C&R-ers measure the ethical treatment of animals    only by mortality studies.  You do not consider that a wild animal    in its element *deserves* a certain amount of respect. [snip] By your gut you refer to your stomach no doubt – your great arbitrator of ethical issues. If there is an ethical issue ( and you’ve never even tried to establish why there is one) it is far more complex than you make out – or even have attempted to comprehend; (Oh sorry Tim this may be an insult but then I’m just calling them as I see them – <BEG)    The carnage of pure C&R is swept under the rug every month in    the ff magazines and the entire industry is brainwashed into    thinking that it is somehow OK to hurt a wild animal, just for    fun. Whatever that carnage may be if it exists anywhere but in your imagination remains to be defined and exposed; get off your duff and do it  - maybe I’ll come around to your point of view! [snip]    You insist (greedily) that ‘quality fishing’ implies ONLY number    of and size of fish. This is the part where YOUR dog craps on my lawn in plain sight of everyone who has a look; I made no such insistence; I usually choose less uncrowded waters populated with fewer fish to have some peace- BUT THAT IS MY CHOICE- I’m not out to stuff my choice down anyone’s throat.  The fish I catch are often a pound or less when I could easily go elsewhere to catch pickup loads of fish bigger than you have ever seen. – I WILL NOT ACCEPT BEING LABELLED AS A GREEDY PERSON BY SOMEONE   WHOSE AVOWED INTENTION IS TO ENACT RULES AND REGULATIONS THAT  LIMIT FISHING OPPORTUNITIES TO A FEW SO HIS PLEASURE IS IMPEDED BY    THE MINIMUM NUMBER OF PEOPLE POSSIBLE! You are out to enhance your pleasure at the expense of the pleasure of others! If that isn’t greed what is? Any greed associated with catch and release pales beside that old chum. You know Tim I hoped you could do better than these dreary ad hominium arguments – but perhaps you’ve picked up the habit from some my fellow c&r’ers who couldn’t do better either.    There is no quality of experience left in the following pure C&R waters:    The San Juan below Navajo Dam.  The Frying Pan below Reudi.    The Green below Flaming Gorge.  The Uncompaghre below Ridgway.    The South Platte (God rest her soul) below Cheesman canyon.    If you think that pure C&R has enhanced your experience in these    places then you will never ever understand the truth.   So? Why don’t you show the kind of guts we’ve shown in BC and enact regulations that reduce the level of pressure on those rivers; those rivers belong to the residents of those states! Check out the regs for BC rivers like the Dean! Non-residents have to pay more; they have to use a guide they may have to enter a lottery for a right to fish – and yes I support the use of lottery entrance where the demand for access exceeds the resources capacity!   But I will never support lottery access so some catch and kill elitists can get all the rivers to themselves, so they can kill a few fish but bar those who’d let them go! The very essence of the sport has to be that given a set of regulations the angler gets to choose how he pursues his sport. This was the meaning of Haig Browns "the Law Breaker" if we are forced to kill then we are only instruments of harvest not sports fishers.    Someone actually argued against the position that fisheries    management is about a balance of fish and having as few fishermen    per mile Gee who was that? Ralph H        TimW Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice. There is nothing we do when we lure a fish, hook it, play it, land and then release it that is not done with catch and kill. The experience of the fish is the same up until the point it is released! Then it is given a 90%+ chance of survival! Ninety percent or better that it will spawn and enhance the fish stock. Ninety percent or better that it will do the fishy things that make a fishes life worth while. That make our sport worth while. If we cave in to the hysterical and illogical forces that would restrict the catching and killing of fish to force of law and the chance of lottery we will strip the sport of its essence. We will  be able to fish so seldom that most will hang their rods in shame and pursue other pastimes. For those that do continue to fish the mystery of fishing will be replaced by the certainty of a dead fish or two and a modest meal. Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

                       Harv

Response:

Tim, you should change your handle to Don Quioxte; you put so much effort into tilting at wind mills!  TimW writes:

        The neighbor’s collie still craps on the lawn even after Eddie         throws snowballs at it.. [snip] Your dog poop "thing" reminds me of a funny story: A friend went to complain to his neighbour about the neighbours dog crapping on his lawn. As they stood discussing the issue – of course the neighbour contested his dog would never do such a thing – the dog wandered over into my friends yard and dumped in plain sight of both of them. That’s exactly what’s happened here!         You and many pure C&R-ers measure the ethical treatment of animals         only by mortality studies.  You do not consider that a wild animal         in its element *deserves* a certain amount of respect. [snip] By your gut you refer to your stomach no doubt – your great arbitrator of ethical issues. If there is an ethical issue ( and you’ve never even tried to establish why  there is one) it is far more complex than you make out – or even have attempted to comprehend; (Oh sorry Tim this may be an insult but then I’m just calling them as I see  them – <BEG)         The carnage of pure C&R is swept under the rug every month in         the ff magazines and the entire industry is brainwashed into         thinking that it is somehow OK to hurt a wild animal, just for         fun. Whatever that carnage may be if it exists anywhere but in your imagination remains to be defined and exposed; get off your duff and do it  - maybe I’ll come around to your point of view! [snip]         You insist (greedily) that ‘quality fishing’ implies ONLY number         of and size of fish. This is the part where YOUR dog craps on my lawn in plain sight of everyone who has a look; I made no such insistence; I usually choose less uncrowded waters populated with fewer fish to have some peace- BUT THAT IS MY CHOICE- I’m not out to stuff my choice down anyone’s throat.  The fish I catch are often a pound or less when I could easily go  elsewhere to catch pickup loads of fish bigger than you have ever seen. – I WILL NOT ACCEPT BEING LABELLED AS A GREEDY PERSON BY SOMEONE    WHOSE AVOWED INTENTION IS TO ENACT RULES AND REGULATIONS THAT   LIMIT FISHING OPPORTUNITIES TO A FEW SO HIS PLEASURE IS IMPEDED BY     THE MINIMUM NUMBER OF PEOPLE POSSIBLE! You are out to enhance your pleasure at the expense of the pleasure of others! If that isn’t greed what is? Any greed associated with catch and release  pales beside that old chum. You know Tim I hoped you could do better than these dreary ad hominium arguments – but perhaps you’ve picked up the habit from some my fellow c&r’ers who couldn’t do better either.         There is no quality of experience left in the following pure C&R waters:         The San Juan below Navajo Dam.  The Frying Pan below Reudi.         The Green below Flaming Gorge.  The Uncompaghre below Ridgway.         The South Platte (God rest her soul) below Cheesman canyon.         If you think that pure C&R has enhanced your experience in these         places then you will never ever understand the truth.   So? Why don’t you show the kind of guts we’ve shown in BC and enact regulations that reduce the level of pressure on those rivers; those rivers  belong to the residents of those states! Check out the regs for BC rivers  like the Dean! Non-residents have to pay more; they have to use a guide they may have to enter a lottery for a right to fish – and yes I support the use of lottery entrance where the demand for access exceeds the resources capacity!   But I will never support lottery access so some catch and kill elitists  can get all the rivers to themselves, so they can kill a few fish but bar those who’d let them go! The very essence of the sport has to be that given a set of regulations the angler gets to choose how he pursues his sport. This was the meaning of Haig Browns "the Law Breaker" if we are forced to kill then we are only  instruments of harvest not sports fishers.         Someone actually argued against the position that fisheries         management is about a balance of fish and having as few fishermen         per mile Gee who was that? Ralph H         TimW – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice. There is nothing we do when we lure a fish, hook it, play it, land and then release it that is not done with catch and kill. The experience of the fish is the same up until the point it is released! Then it is given a 90%+ chance of survival! Ninety percent or better that it will spawn and enhance the fish stock. Ninety percent or better that it will do the fishy things that make a fishes life worth while. That make our sport worth while. If we cave in to the hysterical and illogical forces that would restrict the catching and killing of fish to force of law and the chance of lottery we will strip the sport of its essence. We will  be able to fish so seldom that most will hang their rods in shame and pursue other pastimes. For those that do continue to fish the mystery of fishing will be replaced by the certainty of a dead fish or two and a modest meal. Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice.

– TimW Halfordian Golfer

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Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice. There is nothing we do when we lure a fish, hook it, play it, land and then release it that is not done with catch and kill. The experience of the fish is the same up until the point it is released! Then it is given a 90%+ chance of survival! Ninety percent or better that it will spawn and enhance the fish stock. Ninety percent or better that it will do the fishy things that make a fishes life worth while. That make our sport worth while. If we cave in to the hysterical and illogical forces that would restrict the catching and killing of fish to force of law and the chance of lottery we will strip the sport of its essence. We will  be able to fish so seldom that most will hang their rods in shame and pursue other pastimes. For those that do continue to fish the mystery of fishing will be replaced by the certainty of a dead fish or two and a modest meal. Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice. There is nothing we do when we lure a fish, hook it, play it, land and then release it that is not done with catch and kill. The experience of the fish is the same up until the point it is released! Then it is given a 90%+ chance of survival! Ninety percent or better that it will spawn and enhance the fish stock. Ninety percent or better that it will do the fishy things that make a fishes life worth while. That make our sport worth while. If we cave in to the hysterical and illogical forces that would restrict the catching and killing of fish to force of law and the chance of lottery we will strip the sport of its essence. We will  be able to fish so seldom that most will hang their rods in shame and pursue other pastimes. For those that do continue to fish the mystery of fishing will be replaced by the certainty of a dead fish or two and a modest meal. Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice.

Well spoken, Ralph! Here in the northern Sweden I’m not obliged to release the browns, graylings or char I catch. I’ll do it anyway, out of respect of nature and its limited resources. If I had to kill all the watery friends I manage to outwit, by imitating what they eat, by making a great cast, by reading the water or simply by persistance, then I would feel sick. It would be like having to kill the dog after walking it. Roughly… /Hans Edman, Umea, Sweden

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Yeah yeah yeah… The neighbor’s collie still craps on the lawn even after Eddie throws snowballs at it…you can leave the bitch out on a 20 below zero night and she still wags her tail at you in the morning.  Same thing if you stake her out in the hot August sun in Rifle.  You can be cruel as hell to a dog, they’ll still be around to crap on the lawn, man. But you know Ralph…I feel better that I do not kick her or tie her up in the sun and I feel better when she has water and food. You and many pure C&R-ers measure the ethical treatment of animals only by mortality studies.  You do not consider that a wild animal in its element *deserves* a certain amount of respect. They do not exist purely for our pleasure, of that I am certain.  This is what MY gut tells me.   The carnage of pure C&R is swept under the rug every month in the ff magazines and the entire industry is brainwashed into thinking that it is somehow OK to hurt a wild animal, just for fun. Why do you continue to ignore the efficacy of selective harvest as a workable concept in all fisheriy situations ? You insist (greedily) that ‘quality fishing’ implies ONLY number of and size of fish.  This ONLY guarantees crowded conditions which nails the coffin of quality shut… There is no quality of experience left in the following pure C&R waters: The San Juan below Navajo Dam.  The Frying Pan below Reudi. The Green below Flaming Gorge.  The Uncompaghre below Ridgway. The South Platte (God rest her soul) below Cheesman canyon. If you think that pure C&R has enhanced your experience in these places then you will never ever understand the truth.   Someone actually argued against the position that fisheries management is about a balance of fish and having as few fishermen per mile as possible.  Amazing.  Absolutely amazing.   TimW – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice. There is nothing we do when we lure a fish, hook it, play it, land and then release it that is not done with catch and kill. The experience of the fish is the same up until the point it is released! Then it is given a 90%+ chance of survival! Ninety percent or better that it will spawn and enhance the fish stock. Ninety percent or better that it will do the fishy things that make a fishes life worth while. That make our sport worth while. If we cave in to the hysterical and illogical forces that would restrict the catching and killing of fish to force of law and the chance of lottery we will strip the sport of its essence. We will  be able to fish so seldom that most will hang their rods in shame and pursue other pastimes. For those that do continue to fish the mystery of fishing will be replaced by the certainty of a dead fish or two and a modest meal. Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice.

– TimW Halfordian Golfer

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Question:

Hi all: I am a newbee flyfisherperson and I want to go fishing.  I just don’t know a good spot to go this weekend.  I would like to get some input  on some decent fishing spots for a beginner to go to in the Vancouver area.  I only have waders, so I guess that stream fishing is what I am limited to for the time being. Thanks in advance Jon

Response:

I Salmon runs have been hammered all along the Coast, but I’m sure there is still some action out there.

this is a big exaggeration! Coho fishing on the west coast of Vancouver ISle was great this year. Chinook fishing in many areas including the Charlottes and the Strait of Georgia (between Mainland and Van Isle) was also the best in years! Fear was that Fraser Sockeye were in trouble; they were not. Also closures on chinook were inplace to protect some stocks that have been mammered by the Alaskan commercial fishery but overall salmon runs were good and 97 is expected to be better!

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If fishing is your primary interest, you’ll want to be there in fall and early winter when salmon/steelhead/searun cutthroat are running. Things can be good up along the Sunshine coast and even at mouth and up Fraser River in August and September. It’s been about 9 years since I’ve worked this area but I hear there is still good bottomfishing, searun cutthroat fishing, and steelhead fishing. Salmon runs have been hammered all along the Coast, but I’m sure there is still some action out there.

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I am planning a trip to Vancouver and am curious if anyone knows the best time of yesr to go? JT

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I am planning a trip to Vancouver and am curious if anyone knows the best time of yesr to go? JT

Vancouver isn’t a high quality destination for flyfishing. However there is some sort of fishing available year round. Some possibilities; Aug-Sept Fraser river will have lots of Pinks and Sockeye available (we’re talking millions of fish)  as 97 is expected to be a high cycle year.. The river is likely to be muddy at this time and is very large; I recommend a guide. Mid Oct for coho on the Chilliwack, Chehalis and Harrison River; plan to fish weekends to avoid crowds. Use Vancouver as a jump off point to the interior of BC or Vancoucer Island; some oufits do helicopter trips to Alpine Lakes. Email me for more info Ralph H

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Question:

I will be staying on the beach at Ambergris Cay in mid October.  I plan on doing some guided fishing (tarpon, bonefish, etc…), but what about just flingin’ flies from the beach (fairly secluded)?  Are there snappers, etc available to throw small clousers to, or some other type of "saltwater panfish" to occupy an early morning of walking the beach?  Any suggestions on flies to bring and species available would be most appreciated. Paul DiConza Albany, NY

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: I will be staying on the beach at Ambergris Cay in mid October.  I plan on : doing some guided fishing (tarpon, bonefish, etc…), but what about just : flingin’ flies from the beach (fairly secluded)?  Are there snappers, etc : available to throw small clousers to, or some other type of "saltwater : panfish" to occupy an early morning of walking the beach?  Any suggestions : on flies to bring and species available would be most appreciated. Great question.  Please answer in the group.  Thanks. — Rick (who would like to do this himself, very soon.) T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.

Response:

I will be staying on the beach at Ambergris Cay in mid October.  I plan on doing some guided fishing (tarpon, bonefish, etc…), but what about just flingin’ flies from the beach (fairly secluded)?  Are there snappers, etc available to throw small clousers to, or some other type of "saltwater panfish" to occupy an early morning of walking the beach?  Any suggestions on flies to bring and species available would be most appreciated. Paul DiConza Albany, NY

I was down in Belize a month ago and had a great time.  On the first morning I was preparing my rods and had a school of bonefish pass within fifty feet of the beach and had one on with the second cast.  There are plenty of "SW panfish" everywhere but you will have to use smaller flies.  I had my best luck with size 8 and 10 crazy charlies in Olive, olive brown,pink puffs (pink head white wings), tan and some orange.  You might have a hard time finding size 10 SW hooks and the only source I found was Partridge.  We ended up using 6 wt. rods most of the time stepping up to 8 wt. for permit and both with 15-18′ leaders.  Found that 3 feet of flourocarbon tippet of the end of a 15′ leader worked great.  We had many fish over 5Lbs. with the biggest landed fish of the week at 7lbs.  Saw plenty of bonefish over ten and a few golden bones.  Planning on going down again the end of March 97. EYES ON CHARLIES MINI, X-SMALL AND SMALL Good fishing,                      Marcos Vergara                      Fly & Field, Inc.

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Anywhere there is surf and coral you can catch small snappers, grouper and other stuff.  A wire leader is advisable.  The groupers will go to holes and have to be pulle out/

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Question:

: I live in Downriver Detroit and love to travel to No. Mich. to fly fish : for trout.  Unfortunately, it appears my travel budget will be seriously : curtailed this summer.  Does anyone out there know of good streams or : lakes in the metro area that are wader-accessible?  Fish species are : unimportant.  Also, any guidance on flies for warmwater species will be : appreciated.   You live in one of the most lake-besotted states in the union! There are *scores* of good fishing lakes in your neighborhood. Go to a large bookstore or DNR office and get a copy of the book "Fishing in Michigan". It lists scores of lakes with details of access, location, species and so forth. For warmwater flies, think pink and green. I have caught tons of panfish on a variety of nymphs, wooly buggers and even tiny 1/32 oz pink jigs. Some folks tie a bit of hackle to these so it looks more like flyfishing My favorite and one of my most successful for ‘gills and crappie has been a sort of scud tied as follows: #12-14 3906 thread: tan body: light beige dubbing shell: three pieces of flashabou- one green and two iridescent rib: copper wire- about #36. Tie in the wire and flashabou strands. Dub on body. Pull flashabou forwards and tie off. Rib with wire and tie off. For bass, I like big deer hair mice and a sort of worm tied from a zonker strip (about 3-4" long) and some maribou on a #2 hook. –mike

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Paint Creek in Rochester. The Huron River out by Proud Lake Rec Area (this is already open, flys only- and when ya get done, you can go XC skiing- supposed to snow 2 night…doncha jus love Mich?…).

Response:

I live in Downriver Detroit and love to travel to No. Mich. to fly fish for trout.  Unfortunately, it appears my travel budget will be seriously curtailed this summer.  Does anyone out there know of good streams or lakes in the metro area that are wader-accessible?  Fish species are unimportant.  Also, any guidance on flies for warmwater species will be appreciated.   Paul Wise

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Question:

Can anyone give me any advise re using float tubes for fishing ? Anyone with any experiences pro or con would be appreciated. Thanks, Ron Ronald W Becker California " looking here and there for an interesting sight or two"

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Can anyone give me any advise re using float tubes for fishing ? Anyone with any experiences pro or con would be appreciated. Thanks, Ron

    My advise, as both a warm and cold water tuber, is to borrow one and fish the waters where you will want to spend most of your time. Find out as cheaply as possable if it is for you. Ask your fishing buddies or the tubers that you see at your lake. Folks love to share their experiences!     You will hear that one type of geer is best or that you will need such and such a thing, unless you have money to burn go slow. Some of the young guys like to use big hard fins that would kill me. So what is perfect for others is not always right for you. I started out with the cheapest, bare bones tube that I could find. Fished it for large mouth bass in warm water for a spring/summer and was quite happy with what I could do with it. So, the next spring I took it up into the mountains, 10,000 feet, high and cold. Found out that I needed more stuff, neophrene waiders, thermals, and an air pump. My point is, to not buy everything that you think that you could possiably ever need when you start. Grow into it.     Also, after a couple tubes, I found that the delux, high priced models, didn’t really improve the experience for me and infact made it somewhat more difficult because I tended to fill up all the pockets with stuff and then had to carry/kick the added weight. Though for equipment junkies the added features is just great.      Tubes are great in my opinion, and if you think that you are interested in the quiet, solitude, control, and exercise, go for it! brian

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Can anyone give me any advise re using float tubes for fishing ? Anyone with any experiences pro or con would be appreciated. Thanks, Ron

I was thinking of picking up a tube for river and pond fishing around Central Ohio late this summer, but decided on what is known as a kickboat.  If you don’t know, a kickboat is generally a small dual-pontoon type craft, with a fixed seat between the two pontoons.  Advantanges over tubes are that they are more stable, more comfortable, offer more storage, and you can add oar kits and even trolling motors to some.  Disadvantages are that they are slightly bigger, take more time to assemble, and are generally more expensive. I bought a J&R Outfitters Kingfisher III.  It’s a nice boat: the length is about 9′, very well constructed, and assembles very quickly.  I was also able to fit it in the back of my Eagle Talon!  I purchased mine with the optional oar kit (this is a fixed-oar kit with a kick bar to rest your feet), and a rear storage/cooler rack (will support up to 50 pounds).  The boat supports a total of 450 pounds, and again, is very stable.  I plan to buy the trolling motor when it’s ready in January. Again, they are expensive (I paid a total of 600.00 for the boat, oar kit, and storage rack, and the trolling motor kit will run 400.00), but I think they are better than tubes for a couple of reasons: one, you get a fixed seat with backrest and armrests. Secondly, you can get an oar kit, which is much better than kick-fins in most occassions.  Third, they hold more gear.  Lastly, you can keep your butt dry and not necessarily need waders!  They take a little while to assemble if you don’t put them together before leaving home (mine takes about 20 minutes including the 10 it takes to inflate the pontoons with a hand pump), and are heavy to lug around (although mine is a deluxe: you can get smaller, less expensive units that also weigh less), but I do like mine.   It was great catching the largest smallmouth I’ve ever caught (a little over 4 pounds) on it’s maden voyage! In all honesty, I’ll probably buy a tube this spring for the times I don’t need to cover a lot of water!

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: Can anyone give me any advise re using float tubes for fishing ? : Anyone with any experiences pro or con would be appreciated. : Thanks, Ron : Ronald W Becker : California : " looking here and there for an interesting sight or two"         Hey Ron,         Don’t use them in shark infested waters or in lakes with six foot snappin turtles!! Seriously, I’ve been fly fishing out of one for 2 years and love it. If fly fishing, I recomend at least an 8 ft rod. Also pisses the landlocked guys off when you haul in a trophy right out of their casting range!! Kinda fun!                                         dale — End of network mail

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Can anyone give me any advise re using float tubes for fishing ?

I would like to try this. But I don’t feel comfortable flowing down the river in a tube with myself somewhat tangled in it.  Can someone provide some statistics on the safety issue.  Thanks, Simon  

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