Question:

I’m relatively new to fly casting and have a question regarding casting technique.  When I transition from backcast to forecast I often hear the fly and line cracking (poping really) like a whip when the fly reverses direction to go forward.  Is this normal?  I suspect that I’m not letting the line straighten behind me before casting forward; therefore, it’s just like cracking a whip.  The problem with waiting though seems to be that the line doesn’t travel forward as far if I wait.  The problem with not waiting, I seem to be jerking the stuffing out of my flys.  Any thoughts?

Yes; what everybody else told you and this.   To get distance on the forward cast, you need to load the rod properly.   When your back cast straightens behind you (no big loops), start the forward cast a bit more slowly until the rod begins to load from the weight of the line, THEN apply all that power you’re using.   Don’t give it the full magilla all at once.   It should be a gradual acceleration, not a sharp increase to full power. Joe F.

Response:

I’m relatively new to fly casting and have a question regarding casting technique.  When I transition from backcast to forecast I often hear the fly and line cracking (poping really) like a whip when the fly reverses direction to go forward.  Is this normal?  I suspect that I’m not letting the line straighten behind me before casting forward; therefore, it’s just like cracking a whip.  The problem with waiting though seems to be that the line doesn’t travel forward as far if I wait.  The problem with not waiting, I seem to be jerking the stuffing out of my flys.  Any thoughts?

Well, first, quit stuffing your fly – it’ll make the girls (or the boys, depending on your personal choices) think you silly – and that way, you’ll not jerk it out.  Hmm…that reminds me of Blazing Saddles – "pardon me while I whip this out…," and speaking of whipping…. …yup, "cracking the whip" is timing.  Turn your head and look over your shoulder at the fly – and for Pete’s (or really, the Canadian of your choice) sake, don’t use full-hook flies to practice – try using bright, puffy whiffs – and try beginning your forward cast when the fly begins to start into the loop’s roll.  I suspect your particular distance thing is timing-related, as well, due to timing because of <oh, lord, well, let’s just say it’s likely timing-related, but without more info and seeing you cast, I’ll make that guess and leave it at that.   Just stay with it, you’ll get it – practice, practice, and oh, BTW, practice. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Regards, Eric

Response:

…. load… <oh lord  He said it!  He said it! <G TC, R Where’s that duck dropping from the lights?

Well, you’re a lovely couple and I think you should get married. Wolfgang somewhere in the viaduct

Response:

…. load… <oh lord  He said it!  He said it! <G TC, R Where’s that duck dropping from the lights?

LOL.   In keeping with the oft-dispensed advice, I thought long and hard before hitting the send key on that one.   Thought I could slip it benignly past if I omitted all controversial adverbs. Joe F.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …. load… <oh lord  He said it!  He said it! <G TC, R Where’s that duck dropping from the lights? Well, you’re a lovely couple and I think you should get married.

Why would I wanna marry a duck, via whatever means…oh, you just want the film rights so you can sell the tape….on eBay…. TC, R fearing the ductile nature of threads…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Wolfgang somewhere in the viaduct

Response:

Via duck, vie not a turkey or a chicken? Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …. load… <oh lord  He said it!  He said it! <G TC, R Where’s that duck dropping from the lights? Well, you’re a lovely couple and I think you should get married. Wolfgang somewhere in the viaduct

Response:

I’m relatively new to fly casting and have a question regarding casting technique.  When I transition from backcast to forecast I often hear the fly and line cracking (poping really) like a whip when the fly reverses direction to go forward.  Is this normal?

No It’s really hard to fix your problem by suggesting  possible solution with words alone.  You may want to rent a casting video from a local fly fishing shop.  If the line droops when you do try to let it completely unroll on the backcast, try aiming your backcast a little bit up and to the back and not just to the back.  HTH. Mu

Response:

I’m relatively new to fly casting and have a question regarding casting technique.  When I transition from backcast to forecast I often hear the fly and line cracking (poping really) like a whip when the fly reverses direction to go forward.  Is this normal?  I suspect that I’m not letting the line straighten behind me before casting forward; therefore, it’s just like cracking a whip.  The problem with waiting though seems to be that the line doesn’t travel forward as far if I wait.  The problem with not waiting, I seem to be jerking the stuffing out of my flys.  Any thoughts? Regards, Eric

Eric: Something that helped me alot was waiting until I felt the rod "load up" on my back stroke. I also notice this is easier to feel with a "slower" rod. Just a thought. M. Wm.

Response:

Casting next to big picture windows….the solar tinted kind that act like mirrors…can aid in watching how your line behaves while it’s behinds you. I’m just a not very sensitive guy. It seems like my hands take forever to learn something….I mean you should have seen the hook and weight contraption I had to build just to learn how to tie bloodknots.  Having acces to one of these type of windows helped me learn to cast (not that I can). Being able to see when I was supposed to be feeling my line assisted me in actually learning to feel it. john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m relatively new to fly casting and have a question regarding casting technique.  When I transition from backcast to forecast I often hear the fly and line cracking (poping really) like a whip when the fly reverses direction to go forward.  Is this normal?  I suspect that I’m not letting the line straighten behind me before casting forward; therefore, it’s just like cracking a whip.  The problem with waiting though seems to be that the line doesn’t travel forward as far if I wait.  The problem with not waiting, I seem to be jerking the stuffing out of my flys.  Any thoughts? Regards, Eric

Response:

…. load…

<oh lord  He said it!  He said it! <G TC, R Where’s that duck dropping from the lights? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Joe F.

Response:

I’m relatively new to fly casting and have a question regarding casting technique.  When I transition from backcast to forecast I often hear the fly and line cracking (poping really) like a whip when the fly reverses direction to go forward.  Is this normal?  I suspect that I’m not letting the line straighten behind me before casting forward; therefore, it’s just like cracking a whip.  The problem with waiting though seems to be that the line doesn’t travel forward as far if I wait.  The problem with not waiting, I seem to be jerking the stuffing out of my flys.  Any thoughts? Regards, Eric

If the fly "cracks" when you commence your forward cast, this is a result of it breaking the sound barrier when it "goes around the bend". This will shred most flies very quickly indeed, if it does not break them off to start with. This is caused by you reversing direction, and applying forward motion to the fly, while it is still travelling backwards. The fault is indeed caused by starting the forward stroke too soon.  This is often compounded by allowing the rod to "drift" too far back, or indeed a power stroke which is too long. Too much power is also a cause of this fault. The remedy is to apply less power, stop your backast a little earlier, and wait for the line to straighten before commencing the forward stroke. Concentrate on throwing your backcast "up", instead of "back", and the fault will probably disappear.  Watching your back-cast will help here. When the line is straight out behind you, commence the forward stroke. When casting heavy flies, or greater distances, a "single haul" may be of considerable assistance. This is a pull on the line with the "line" hand, at the start of the forward stroke. TL MC

Response:

I’m relatively new to fly casting and have a question regarding casting technique.  When I transition from backcast to forecast I often hear the fly and line cracking (poping really) like a whip when the fly reverses direction to go forward.  Is this normal?

It means MAXIMUM POWER!!!  I suspect that I’m not letting the line straighten behind me before casting forward; therefore, it’s just like cracking a whip.  The problem with waiting though seems to be that the line doesn’t travel forward as far if I wait.

Just kidding.  It’s bad.  You definitely need to wait.  Stick with it – maybe take a lesson – you will definitely be able to generate line speed other ways.   You’re not trying to cast like 80 feet, are you?

Response:

  I’m relatively new to fly casting and have a question regarding casting technique.  When I transition from backcast to forecast I often hear the fly and line cracking (poping really) like a whip when the fly reverses direction to go forward.  Is this normal?  I suspect that I’m not letting the line straighten behind me before casting forward; therefore, it’s just like cracking a whip.  The problem with waiting though seems to be that the line doesn’t travel forward as far if I wait.  The problem with not waiting, I seem to be jerking the stuffing out of my flys.  Any thoughts?

It sounds like your analysis is correct.  This is not normal and you should try and let the line straighten out behind you.  Perhaps you can add a little haul on the  forward cast to get more distance if it is a problem. I haven’t seen you cast and I am not a "casting coach," other than to some of my friends I am trying to teach, so take my advice for what it is worth. You get what you pay for and all that. . . Perhaps some of the better casters will chime in with their opinions. — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

Response:

I’m relatively new to fly casting and have a question regarding casting technique.  When I transition from backcast to forecast I often hear the fly and line cracking (poping really) like a whip when the fly reverses direction to go forward.  Is this normal?  I suspect that I’m not letting the line straighten behind me before casting forward; therefore, it’s just like cracking a whip.  The problem with waiting though seems to be that the line doesn’t travel forward as far if I wait.  The problem with not waiting, I seem to be jerking the stuffing out of my flys.  Any thoughts? Regards, Eric

Response:

Question:

 on the contrary:  posts such as yours often transform banality into a worthwhile subject for ridicule.

Who else has a motorcycle with 3 fly tying vices on it (except maybe Dig Dale<g)? — Charlie…

Response:

(except maybe Dig Dale<g)?

Or Big Dale, too… — Charlie…

Response:

however, you must not consider my response to be an effort to take  the keyboard from your hands.  on the contrary:  posts such as yours often transform banality into a worthwhile subject for ridicule.

Almost makes me feel bad I missed it. If you hear a distant scream from the East later this morning, you’ll know all those missing posts showed up at once when I fired up ROFF from my office PC. –Steve

Response:

(snip ramblings from the king of babble-on)         george, it is a pity that you are so bereft of literacy; otherwise, the world of psychiatry would be afforded a marvelous insight into the world of the egomaniac, at no cost, here at roff.         however, you must not consider my response to be an effort to take  the keyboard from your hands.  on the contrary:  posts such as yours often transform banality into a worthwhile subject for ridicule.         "wayne"

Response:

What I like about my place is that it reeks with the outdoors/indoors. The unusual objects that grace this place of quiet solitude are really signatures of my life.  To the right of me, as I write this is a motorcycle, right next to my desk – a library of outdoor literature that would keep any man busy reading for several years and in fact, most of them are valuable collector items.  The pictures that adorn my walls began years ago which include art works along with my own.  A River Runs Through It, given to me by Redford, tons of inventory and boxes in the upper lofts which we use to ship in to customers all over the world and to my right, my Studio Upright Balwin piano which I tickle, now and then in moments of reverie. A Setter, usually lays at my feet no matter where I sit each day.  Such companionship is one of osmosis, I suppose.  Love unconditional is the best kind of love, which often is more real from animals whose senses are keener than words.  If you want to know that man, I’ve always said, look at his animals.  Are his horse shy from abuse?  Do his dogs cower and does the cat slink away to hide?  Thing is, I marvel that most new people who show up must be warned that they may be licked to death around here. I have serveral com sites that have not been developed yet and I suppose this winter I and David Ion may start doing something about that. Mainly because the bamboo blanks are in great demand and growing. Burning the night oil, late at night, pondering the next decimals on the lathe while listening to Barbara Cook or the Four Freshmen on the Studio Sound System – waxes the hours away.  I’ve always loved working with my hands.  The creation of things that take form for others is a joy for me.  I am good at the things that I do.  A rare gift, I’m told but it makes me smile.  Often, when I work, I have a specific man’s name in mind and although I may not know what they look like, I know the heart. For me, that is what matters. I have a second motorcycle setting by a well used and equiped fly tying center and table.  It has three fly tying vises on it and the finest material money can buy.  The finest refreshments that money can buy is not far away and often, the finest company dwell on life in soft whispers and laughter while pretty things are plucked and stored in fly boxes.  Steelhead season is on and it has been better this year.  The river banks are lined here and there with vehicles, empty of the driver.  One cannot help but look to the river for them. Harmonics has been my bane for three weeks now.  I have hunted this bitch for all this time, trying hard to find the harmony long since lost.  The mill has been eating tips like M & M’s and it tends to piss me off because its been so difficult.  Tonight, finally, the dial indicator needle is setting vibration free for the first time in months, if not nearly a year. I’ve tired of the politics on ROFF and the nonsense of subject matters not dealing with fly fishing.  There is so much to think about regarding the subject and there are so many facets as found on a diamond, yet to be explored.  We used to talk about those a couple years ago all the time.  It used to be as fun as what is enjoyed in the fly tying section.  No darwinian nonsense there.  Just pure fly tying and gentlemen of the first realm. Well, I had to take a break and this computer and hook up is different from the other.  Old friends still write on the side and the letters are warm and caring.  The kind of people that make this world a nice place are often singular minds enjoying and trusting the minutes spent with friends.  Nothing worse in life than bores who only hawk and take inventory of others.  Such a waste of valuable time. I sometimes think of that long line of camels on the horizon in a far away desert.  Mirage like they seem . . . shimmering in the heat of the sun, almost unreal.  If you walk toward them, you notice the camels are in a long, thin line and as you get closer and closer, as in ROFF, you notice they are tied together with singular lines, halter to tail, halter to tail and should you follow with your eye to the front, the lead animal is always a donkey.  ROFFIANS, like the donkey have to figure out why it is always a donkey that leads and if that is good or a bad thing. Right Wayne? — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com "the sage continues"

  gink.vcf

< 1K Download

Response:

Question:

btw, here in nc, we call it the sidearm, m*****f*****g rhodo cast.

hee hee hee.  OK honest show of hands, who’s finally ripped off a rhodo branch that was getting in their way?? Regards, Jeff

Response:

Guilty! Cut it off, walk away and hope it doesn’t grow back before you return.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – btw, here in nc, we call it the sidearm, m*****f*****g rhodo cast. hee hee hee.  OK honest show of hands, who’s finally ripped off a rhodo branch that was getting in their way?? Regards, Jeff

Response:

Yea, I do that all the time.. it’s, uhh, on purpose, yea that’s it.. It’s amazing how well this works.. if I only had the ability to do this at will. My errant cast strung like a close line along the willows. I tried flipping the line off the willows and in the process, the fly dropped into the lie, the fish took, jumped the log and brok

– -Mark  –  Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio  http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad  mp3 songs:  http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad

Response:

Some times we have to let the fish win — NOT!  Next time out, try a well weighted Dupont spinner.  Works every time.                     Frank Reid P.S. For those unfamiliar with the vernacular, a Dupont spinner is so-named because the pricipal manufacturer is the Dupont explosives division.  One can normally be obtained from "Crazy Lefty," the guy that works in the explosives bunker at your neighborhood rock quary for a small price. Warning:  an overuse of false casting while using one may be hazardous to your health. sportsmanship snipped – – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The fish is still there, I still try for it, but I think that’s the closest I’m going to get.

Response:

I first noticed it out of the corner of my eye, a dimple under some overhanging willows. <good story snipped

Ah, the old willow cast.   Thanks for a good one. Joe F.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I first noticed it out of the corner of my eye, a dimple under some overhanging willows. Looking closer, I saw the steady, patterned rise of a fish.  I moved into position down and across from the fish and surveyed the situation. The fish was feeding in some very shallow water and was protected by dense willows above and a log protruding from the bank just upstream from his lie. I thought that maybe a side arm cast would keep the fly low enough to clear the willows and somehow land in the small slow water feeding area behind the log. I cast, snagged the willow, broke off my fly and put down the fish. Each time there were surface feeding fish about, I would find this fish methodically sipping in his hole. For awhile, I tried to come up with something new each time I passed his lie. I tried downstream casts, but the current would either push my fly past the small area where he fed or pile it up and snag the log. During hopper season, I tried skipping a hopper into his lie but caught willows and bark. I tried my crude imitations of pile casts and curve casts but the drift would never bring the fly into his feeding lane. I bushwhacked through the thick willows on the bank where he fed, hoping to try dapping, but long before I got into position, he was put down. When I reached out to extricate the flies I had lost in the willows from my past futile attempts, I was tempted to do some trimming but that didn’t seem too sporting. I had tried everything I could think of to get a fly to this fish. I probably could have somehow swung a streamer or nymph under the log and taken the fish, but it was a consistent, steady surface feeder and I was determined to meet it on these terms. I felt the side arm cast I first tried came the closest to getting the fly where it needed to be. Each time I passed its lie I would give it a shot. I mostly caught willows, but once in a while I would get a cast in where it belonged but the current always grabbed the tippet, dragged the fly and put down the fish. After each failure, I would go upstream to a shallow run to catch a couple easy fish to appease myself. One day, after fishing the run and getting ready to head home, I looked downstream noticed the fish was again rising. I was probably 40 feet away. I have trouble hitting an area the size of a Buick at this distance, much less one the size of a pie pan lying under some willows, but what the hell, one last cast. I hauled my three weight and let a cast go. My errant cast strung like a close line along the willows. I tried flipping the line off the willows and in the process, the fly dropped into the lie, the fish took, jumped the log and broke me off. The fish is still there, I still try for it, but I think that’s the closest I’m going to get. Willi

a nice read…thanks.  btw, here in nc, we call it the sidearm, m*****f*****g rhodo cast. to make it even more challenging, as if the bizarre twists of the branches and leaves aren’t enough, at certain times of the year, the rhodos have a sticky substance at the flower heads of the branches which is stronger than any commercial glue.  put your fly or leader in it and it’s generally easier just to cut the tippet. jeff

Response:

I first noticed it out of the corner of my eye, a dimple under some overhanging willows. Looking closer, I saw the steady, patterned rise of a fish.  I moved into position down and across from the fish and surveyed the situation. The fish was feeding in some very shallow water and was protected by dense willows above and a log protruding from the bank just upstream from his lie. I thought that maybe a side arm cast would keep the fly low enough to clear the willows and somehow land in the small slow water feeding area behind the log. I cast, snagged the willow, broke off my fly and put down the fish. Each time there were surface feeding fish about, I would find this fish methodically sipping in his hole. For awhile, I tried to come up with something new each time I passed his lie. I tried downstream casts, but the current would either push my fly past the small area where he fed or pile it up and snag the log. During hopper season, I tried skipping a hopper into his lie but caught willows and bark. I tried my crude imitations of pile casts and curve casts but the drift would never bring the fly into his feeding lane. I bushwhacked through the thick willows on the bank where he fed, hoping to try dapping, but long before I got into position, he was put down. When I reached out to extricate the flies I had lost in the willows from my past futile attempts, I was tempted to do some trimming but that didn’t seem too sporting. I had tried everything I could think of to get a fly to this fish. I probably could have somehow swung a streamer or nymph under the log and taken the fish, but it was a consistent, steady surface feeder and I was determined to meet it on these terms. I felt the side arm cast I first tried came the closest to getting the fly where it needed to be. Each time I passed its lie I would give it a shot. I mostly caught willows, but once in a while I would get a cast in where it belonged but the current always grabbed the tippet, dragged the fly and put down the fish. After each failure, I would go upstream to a shallow run to catch a couple easy fish to appease myself. One day, after fishing the run and getting ready to head home, I looked downstream noticed the fish was again rising. I was probably 40 feet away. I have trouble hitting an area the size of a Buick at this distance, much less one the size of a pie pan lying under some willows, but what the hell, one last cast. I hauled my three weight and let a cast go. My errant cast strung like a close line along the willows. I tried flipping the line off the willows and in the process, the fly dropped into the lie, the fish took, jumped the log and broke me off. The fish is still there, I still try for it, but I think that’s the closest I’m going to get. Willi

Response:

Question:

I’ve been told that the current up-and-coming pack animal is the lowly goat. I’m not kidding. I understand that the forest service uses them as pack animals in Idaho. They are very sure footed and can eat anything. They gotta be cheap, and you can eat them in a pinch or when you’re done with them.                         Dale Lindsley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got a really screwed up knee and backpacking is getting very difficult. I’ve seen various pack animals on trails and I’m wondering about Llamas… what do they cost, what kind of care do they require, and what amount of pasture/property do they need? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jim in Oregon The road goes ever, ever on…..

Response:

I’ve been told that the current up-and-coming pack animal is the lowly goat. I’m not kidding. I understand that the forest service uses them as pack animals in Idaho. They are very sure footed and can eat anything. They gotta be cheap, and you can eat them in a pinch or when you’re done with them.

        That was in 1995 in the Sawtooth NRA.  Might have been tried other places as well.   Didn’t work out and when I was back this summer, the goats were history.  Basically, they don’t do well when the person changes from trip to trip.  They take well to one owner and that’s pretty much it.  Not a good behavior pattern for a stock animal.  That was pretty much the behavior they had when my folks raised goats.  It always took some time before they could deal with changes in owners and routine.  The habit of eating anything was detrimental as well since they kept eating things which poisoned them. They are sure footed, we had to put the corner braces on the fences on the outside, othewise they’d walk up the brace and be gone over the fence.   Usually not far, we’d find them in the rhodendron – flat out with blue protruding tongue – take ‘em to the vet for the antidote. They did make good bar-b-que though.  Meat was a bit tough but I’ve never seen any that a pressure cooker couldn’t soften. Linux.  Isn’t he is the character that drags the blanket around all the time?

Response:

That is a training issue I take mine up to the snow every spring. They carry the X country skis up. The group skis down and one person leads the llamas back down. Como Say Llamas www.llamapacker.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim- Funny you should mention Llamas, especially in Oregon. I was up on North Sister this weekend with an extremely experienced climbing friend. Anyway, he told me that one time, forget how long ago, he was up there and ran into a group of folks that had rented some Llamas for the weekend for just your purpose. The intent was to take them into Camp Lake by South Sister. Anyway, they got a ways up the trail and the Llamas absolutely REFUSED to cross snow. They tried and tried and tried, and couldn’t get them to cross snow. They waited a day and tried again. Nope. Not happening. If any of your trips involve snow, I’d check into this. Maybe it was just a training issue, maybe not. As far as I know, Llamas come from snow country but maybe if they’ve never seen it, they don’t want nothin’ to do with it. — Matt Jarvis addressing. I’ve got a really screwed up knee and backpacking is getting very difficult. I’ve seen various pack animals on trails and I’m wondering about Llamas… what do they cost, what kind of care do they require, and what amount of pasture/property do they need? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jim in Oregon The road goes ever, ever on…..

Response:

And some won’t cross large puddles if they can’t see the bottom. Obviously you want a trained one. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim- …. Anyway, they got a ways up the trail and the Llamas absolutely REFUSED to cross snow. They tried and tried and tried, and couldn’t get them to cross snow…..

Response:

I just rented 2 llamas that hiked from Yosemite to Tahoe 153 miles. they crossed every obstical imaginable. They carried 90#s each and ranged from 8 to 12 miles a day with 1 lay over day. Como Say Llamas www.llamapacker.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And some won’t cross large puddles if they can’t see the bottom. Obviously you want a trained one. Mike Jim- …. Anyway, they got a ways up the trail and the Llamas absolutely REFUSED to cross snow. They tried and tried and tried, and couldn’t get them to cross snow…..

Response:

Jim- Funny you should mention Llamas, especially in Oregon. I was up on North Sister this weekend with an extremely experienced climbing friend. Anyway, he told me that one time, forget how long ago, he was up there and ran into a group of folks that had rented some Llamas for the weekend for just your purpose. The intent was to take them into Camp Lake by South Sister. Anyway, they got a ways up the trail and the Llamas absolutely REFUSED to cross snow. They tried and tried and tried, and couldn’t get them to cross snow. They waited a day and tried again. Nope. Not happening. If any of your trips involve snow, I’d check into this. Maybe it was just a training issue, maybe not. As far as I know, Llamas come from snow country but maybe if they’ve never seen it, they don’t want nothin’ to do with it. — Matt Jarvis addressing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got a really screwed up knee and backpacking is getting very difficult. I’ve seen various pack animals on trails and I’m wondering about Llamas… what do they cost, what kind of care do they require, and what amount of pasture/property do they need? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jim in Oregon The road goes ever, ever on…..

Response:

Llamas are great on the trail, but you need special expertise to handle them.  They will eat anything that grows along side the trail. Including plants that will kill them.  The Mt. LeConte Lodge in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park is stocked via Llamas.  The handlers take them up the same trail three times a week, and know all the danger areas by heart.  Earlier this spring, a slide made their normal route up the Trillium Gap trail impassable, so they re-routed up Bullhead.  One llama keeled over dead right on the trail, and two others died back at the ranch.  They believe it was from rhoderdendron poisoning. Since then, they started using modified muzzels to prevent re-occurance. Also, even though they are easier on the trails than horses, many National Parks do not recognize this fact. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got a really screwed up knee and backpacking is getting very difficult. I’ve seen various pack animals on trails and I’m wondering about Llamas… what do they cost, what kind of care do they require, and what amount of pasture/property do they need? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jim in Oregon The road goes ever, ever on…..

Response:

You might check into goats. Keith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got a really screwed up knee and backpacking is getting very difficult. I’ve seen various pack animals on trails and I’m wondering about Llamas… what do they cost, what kind of care do they require, and what amount of pasture/property do they need? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jim in Oregon The road goes ever, ever on…..

Response:

You might check into goats. Keith

     FWIW..  I was reading a book about flyfishing mountain lakes by a well-known (to fishermen, at least) author.  There was an entire chapter about pack animals.  The author said goats were the best, horses worst, and llamas and all others in between. — Yellowstone TRs:  http://www.cis.ksu.edu/~dha5446/hiking/yellowstone/

Response:

In defence of the llama….They only spit at each other over food or females…unless poorly trained and abused they never spit at people.  In the back country they do less damage than a pair of hiking boots, due to their padded feet.They can be turned loose when at camp and do about the same damage as a deer. Como Say Llamas Llama packing and llama rentals www.llamapacker.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Know they spit when annoyed so duck a lot.One golf course uses them as caddies for the golf bags.Quite a sight-men wearing lime green pants and mauve and chartreuse shirts following a llama that poops all over the place-can’t quite housetrain them. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Know they spit when annoyed so duck a lot.One golf course uses them as caddies for the golf bags.Quite a sight-men wearing lime green pants and mauve and chartreuse shirts following a llama that poops all over the place-can’t quite housetrain them. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

I’ve got a really screwed up knee and backpacking is getting very difficult. I’ve seen various pack animals on trails and I’m wondering about Llamas… what do they cost, what kind of care do they require, and what amount of pasture/property do they need? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jim in Oregon The road goes ever, ever on…..

Response:

I operate a llama packing business in CA, I also rent them. You might check out my site listed below I have some info about them. You need at least 2 llamas, as they are herd animals. If you have an acre that is more than enough. If you are just getting started I would recommend 1 to be trained…..This means trained on the trail, at least a season or a couple hundred miles of loaded trail experience. It will make your experience much more enjoyable as the trained llama will train the green one for you. I do not sell them, but I do know where they are (most of the time). llamas for packing should be tall and narrow, but most important is they have to have the right attitude. I would be more than happy to talk in detail about what to look for. The prices average $500 for an untrained ( or very little) to $1500 for a fully trained llama. As with a backpack and hiking boots, the saddle is the most important part, I recommend the Sopris saddle ( about $600) ouch…worth every penny. David Drewry Como Say Llamas www.llamapacker.com 916 923 0408

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got a really screwed up knee and backpacking is getting very difficult. I’ve seen various pack animals on trails and I’m wondering about Llamas… what do they cost, what kind of care do they require, and what amount of pasture/property do they need? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jim in Oregon The road goes ever, ever on…..

Response:

Question:

I agree…I’ll never forget …I sent a friends brother a joke and of course the header contained all the addresses and names of other friends….this guy ’s brother sent everyone of them ads for his vitamins etc….I was very up[set that this guy would take advantage.. But people will do anything for a buck and fly fishing is no exception!

Response:

rummy,                                                                                  I think they all do it everywhere!It ain’t just here!From   Mr. G to me. (don’t confuse us though)Whether it’s proper or not I’m not sure !Oh by the way if your planning a trip to the Smokies I live here & I’m a guide & fltyer who specializes in southern appalachian patterns if you need any contact me at

Response:

What’s your point! Wayne to fish is human…to release divine (junk snipped)  comments on the above would be very interesting. Tom Montauk Point

Response:

Anybody notice how many more ads are appearing on this site in the guise of good ol boy conversation. Everything from folksy advise and down home humor from tackle store owners who just happen to include their address and phone number to a guy trying to push his fly line and wax as a gesture of frienship to us all.   No matter how you cut it, they are commercial solicitations for business.   Is this what we want?  Is this the future of this site?  If this is what the majority wants its fine with me but it is a sure bet if this type of folksy ill-disguised  hustling continues unabated, it will eventually take over. comments on the above would be very interesting. Tom Montauk Point

Hi Tom:         Two of the people that I have the most respect for, on this group, are Bill Kiene and Al Beatty. Al’s been gone mostly since taking a job with Hoffman Hackle and that was our loss, especially in the area of tying techniques. Bill’s been a great source of info regarding product and destinations. I’ve never seen a post from either of them that they didn’t offer some valuable information often to questions that they’ve answered many times over the last few years.         Tag lines can also give some basis for credability in an uncontrolled medium that has more than it’s share of poor information. Bill knows what product passes through his store and how satisfied his clients are with that product. In a retail position he also handles and uses a lot more stuff than most of us are familiar with or will use in several years. When someone asks about travel destinations or lodges he can offer some good objective information as someone that’s been to a number of different places, rather than a guy that made one trip several years ago. The guy that went to Mexico once can offer some helpful info based on his trip but the guy I really want to hear from is the one who has been there at several different times, seasons and locations. He’s got the experience to compare one place or time from another.         I’ve been guiding in Southwest Alaska for several years and lived on the Kenai Peninsula prior to that. I generally restrict my responses to guestions of those areas,and when I do respond I’ll usually include the name of the lodge where I work.         I’ve been on this group since 93 and I post very little and read perhaps 10% of the threads here each day. I lost my interest a long time ago in answering another thread on the best way to tie on a dropper or how to cast with lead. I do however have a lot of respect for guys like Bill and Al that have offered  a lot of very good and objective information over the years and I’ve never seen them hyping themselves or their products. Jim McGrath

Response:

amazingly witty words: Anybody notice how many more ads are appearing on this site in the guise of good ol boy conversation. Everything from folksy advise and down home humor from tackle store owners who just happen to include their address and phone number to a guy trying to push his fly line and wax as a gesture of frienship to us all.   No matter how you cut it, they are commercial solicitations for business.   Is this what we want?  Is this the future of this site?  If this is what the majority wants its fine with me but it is a sure bet if this type of folksy ill-disguised  hustling continues unabated, it will eventually take over. comments on the above would be very interesting. Tom Montauk Point

I feel there are two types of advertising.  On the one side there is the advertising that is actually benifitial to the consumer (and I don’t mean by the product being advertised).  For example, television commercials pay for the programing seen on the t.v., banners on websites allow for certain websites to remain open, etc.   Then there is the unacceptable (in my opinion) advertising.  For example, junk mail (I hate it), road side billboards (I hate ‘em even more), and spam (I REALLY hate this!).  This type of advertising does not provide the consumer with anything in return for the advertising. Now I bring up the point I want to make, Mr. G.  Where does he fall in these catagories?  Well, I feel that he (other than the accidental mass mailing) falls within the former.  He advertises in this group but, he also contributes more than probably 75% of the people that read ROFF.  Personally, I don’t like the advertising (I hate almost every form of it) but I feel that since Mr. G contributes so much to this group, he has earned the right to advertise (if you don’t like it, don’t read his posts). Brian (the slightly drunk and pondering) Hailey

Response:

 ….    Two of the people that I have the most respect for, on this group, are Bill Kiene and Al Beatty. Al’s been gone mostly since taking a job with Hoffman Hackle and that was our loss, especially in the area of tying techniques. Bill’s been a great source of info regarding product and destinations. …..

I talked to Al last night at the San Meteo Show and yes he is up to his neck in Hoffman feathers. He doesn’t read hear much or for that matter even post. He said he could be reached at the boards at the flyhop.com, mainly because he is the main judge of all the tying contests that Hoffman sponsors. — Doug Knight                                     metalfab<atpacbell.net Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $500.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.

Response:

Very good point. The question is what can we do about it? It’s fine and dandy foe someone to advertize a personal sale of a rod, reel or other item he has no use for, but to push their commercial goods on this newsgroup is really cheap! Advertise in one or all of the many publications available. I’m sure more sales will come of that and less flyfishers will be offended. We need this space to share, inquire and discuss our hobby & sport. I don’t have the time or inclination to navigate through so much spam to find an interestig message. Get off our turf! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anybody notice how many more ads are appearing on this site in the guise of good ol boy conversation. Everything from folksy advise and down home humor from tackle store owners who just happen to include their address and phone number to a guy trying to push his fly line and wax as a gesture of frienship to us all.   No matter how you cut it, they are commercial solicitations for business.   Is this what we want?  Is this the future of this site?  If this is what the majority wants its fine with me but it is a sure bet if this type of folksy ill-disguised  hustling continues unabated, it will eventually take over. comments on the above would be very interesting. Tom Montauk Point

Response:

Tom your right that this is an interesting issue. I’d be interested to hear what other think as well. There is no question that get rich quick and send money message (or those promoting sex sites) are not appropriate for this board but what about those message that are related to fly fishing. I mean this is a fly fishing board and posts whether promoting a fly fishing product or a fly fishing site I think should be allowed and welcomed as this is related to the topic of the newsgroup right? Much like a fly fishing magazine you have great articles editorials, heck in resources like events listed and among all those great articles and resource you have ad related to the topic of the magazine promoting products and services related to fly fishing. It would be one thing to have someone post everyday saying the same thing its another thing when someone posts once a week or twice a month about something related to fly fishing that others might enjoy right? How does everyone feel about this. I’m very interested in others views as this has become a continuing problems for business owners, site owners, and newsgroup viewers as well as the general public related to spam message and unsolicited email and such. Thanks for bring this up Tom it was a good idea to get everyone talking about this. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anybody notice how many more ads are appearing on this site in the guise of good ol boy conversation. Everything from folksy advise and down home humor from tackle store owners who just happen to include their address and phone number to a guy trying to push his fly line and wax as a gesture of frienship to us all.   No matter how you cut it, they are commercial solicitations for business.   Is this what we want?  Is this the future of this site?  If this is what the majority wants its fine with me but it is a sure bet if this type of folksy ill-disguised  hustling continues unabated, it will eventually take over.  comments on the above would be very interesting. Tom Montauk Point

Response:

Anybody notice how many more ads are appearing on this site in the guise of good ol boy conversation. Everything from folksy advise and down home humor from tackle store owners who just happen to include their address and phone number to a guy trying to push his fly line and wax as a gesture of frienship to us all.

Yeah, I know how you feel. It used to bum me out too until I downloaded SpamOff!  (the usenet nntp filtering software that removes spam on the fly) from http://www.spamoff.com !   No matter how you cut it, they are commercial solicitations for business.   Is this what we want?  Is this the future of this site?  

It’s not what I want! In fact I think it’s high time we took charge of this situation.  A good first step is probably downloading SpamOff! from http://www.spamoff.com Maybe if none of us read their stupid ads they’ll go away! If this is what the majority wants its fine with me but it is a sure bet if this type of folksy ill-disguised  hustling continues unabated, it will eventually take over.

Sometimes I feel like it already has! Or I used to, anyway, in the pre-SpamOff! days. The days before some kind soul pointed me toward http://www.spamoff.com where I found the usenet nntp filtering software that removes spam on the fly.  comments on the above would be very interesting.

Actually there might be some more comments on one of my favorite WWW discussion forums, http://www.spamoff.com, there’s a message board on these types of issues on that site. (PS: While you’re there you might want to download a FREE demo version of SpamOff! It’s the usenet nntp filtering software that removes spam on the fly!)

Response:

Anybody notice how many more ads are appearing on this site in the guise of good ol boy conversation. Everything from folksy advise and down home humor from tackle store owners who just happen to include their address and phone number to a guy trying to push his fly line and wax as a gesture of frienship to us all. Yeah, I know how you feel. It used to bum me out too until I downloaded SpamOff!  (the usenet nntp filtering software that removes spam on the fly) from http://www.spamoff.com !

Is this a spam for SpamOff? BTW, I couldn’t find a DNS entry for that URL. Maybe their server is down, or maybe they no longer exist.

Response:

Yeah, I know how you feel. It used to bum me out too until I downloaded SpamOff!  (the usenet nntp filtering software that removes spam on the fly) from http://www.spamoff.com ! Is this a spam for SpamOff? BTW, I couldn’t find a DNS entry for that URL. Maybe their server is down, or maybe they no longer exist.

It was a joke…or at least that’s what I took it to be. Cute though.      - Ken — "Time is but the stream I go a-fishin in. I drink at it, but while I drink I see the sandy bottom and detect how shallow it is. It’s thin current slides away, but eternity remains."     – H.D. Thoreau

Response:

        Two of the people that I have the most respect for, on this group, are Bill Kiene and Al Beatty. Al’s been gone mostly since taking a job with Hoffman Hackle and that was our loss, especially in the area of tying techniques. Bill’s been a great source of info regarding product and destinations. I’ve never seen a post from either of them that they didn’t offer some valuable information often to questions that they’ve answered many times over the last few years.

snip Jim – I agree completely.  Has the sun returned yet up there? mark Faulkner

Response:

Smokey,     I come down to the smokey’s 3 or 4 times a year (sometimes I fish the motor trail on the north end of the park) Maybe we can hook up a time or two this year if the price is right ! Good Luck David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – rummy,          I think they all do it everywhere!It ain’t just here!From   Mr. G to me. (don’t confuse us though)Whether it’s proper or not I’m not sure !Oh by the way if your planning a trip to the Smokies I live here & I’m a guide & fltyer who specializes in southern appalachian patterns if you need any contact me at

Response:

(the usenet nntp filtering software that removes spam on the fly) from http://www.spamoff.com !

If you have spam on the fly, wouldn’t that be considered bait fishing?? Inquiring minds want to know. George Adams

Response:

Anybody notice how many more ads are appearing on this site in the guise of good ol boy conversation. Everything from folksy advise and down home humor from tackle store owners who just happen to include their address and phone number to a guy trying to push his fly line and wax as a gesture of frienship to us all.   No matter how you cut it, they are commercial solicitations for business.   Is this what we want?  Is this the future of this site?  If this is what the majority wants its fine with me but it is a sure bet if this type of folksy ill-disguised  hustling continues unabated, it will eventually take over.  comments on the above would be very interesting. Tom Montauk Point

Response:

Question:

I am looking for the fly fishing computer game software that is out.  I thought it was distributed by Orvis, but a call to the Philly store and the local Orvis retailers has been to no avail. Any iformation would be greatly appreciated.

John – There is one called Winfish 3.0- Fly Fishing.  It is shareware.  I downloaded it off of AOL.       Gene

Response:

I am looking for the fly fishing computer game software that is out.  I thought it was distributed by Orvis, but a call to the Philly store and the local Orvis retailers has been to no avail.  Any iformation would be greatly appreciated.

Response:

Question:

writes: Does anyone know of some reputable sources for materials for tying trout flies? If so, please e-mail address and/or phone numbers. Thanks!

You can get a current fly tying catalog and place orders through Orvis at 1-800-548-9548.                                                Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

Response:

Does anyone know of some reputable sources for materials for tying trout flies? If so, please e-mail address and/or phone numbers. Thanks!

Response:

Does anyone know of some reputable sources for materials for tying trout flies? If so, please e-mail address and/or phone numbers. Thanks!

Try "On The Fly" at 1-800-232-9359.  Good selection, good prices. Craig

Response:

Try Hunters in NH . 1-800-331-8558.   The prices are not always the lowest but the quality of materials has always been unsurpassed. Without having to sort through the junk it might even be an equitable trade off. A.J.Thramer

Response:

Question:

Hello Ron, and welcome          Forget the Rouge River. Its closer to an industrial waste carrier than a habitat for any life. Probably your closest shot to a local place is Paint Creek in Rochester, or the Huron River near Wixom, at the Proud Lake Recreation area.       Tight lines,       Damian

Response:

Hi Ron, If you are going to be here in April,  and you don’t mind catching and releasing planted Browns, then bring your stuff.  There is a place that is less than 30 minutes from Southfield. Tight Lines, Henry

: I have to go to Southfield Michigan on business this month.  Are there : any good fly shops in the area?   : My maps show the "River Rouge" going through this area.  Any good : fishing, or would I have to worry about the river catching on fire? : Any urban anglers out there that can help this Boardman River : fisherman? : Ron : : : Hello Ron, : : There are a (at least) 2 good fly shops near Southfield: : : 1) The Riverbend, 313-350 8484, Southfield :    29229 Northw. Hwy (north of 12 mile Road) : : 2) Bueters Outdoors, 810-349 3677, Northville, :    120 E Main Street (8 mile Rd x Novi Rd) : : I am new to this area myself so I don’t know much about : the fishing in the "River Rouge". : Good luck / Stefan

Response:

Question:

How’s the fishing on the Truckee this time of year?  Would I be wasting my time if I were to go out this weekend (I don’t feel like driving to Pyramid Lake)?  The water seems very cold, but does that mean trout go totally dormant in the winter.  What patterns work this time of year.

Response:

(Charles Taylor) writes: How’s the fishing on the Truckee this time of year?  Would I be wasting my time if I were to go out this weekend (I don’t feel like driving to Pyramid Lake)?  The water seems very cold, but does that mean trout go totally dormant in the winter.  What patterns work this time of year.

Chuck, All of the Truckee on the California side is closed.  The Nevada side is open and you should give the Reno Fly Shop (702) 827-0600 a call to find out if the water’s warm enough.  Needs to be in the mid 40’s at least to do much good.                                                    Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Schools Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

Response:

How’s the fishing on the Truckee this time of year?  Would I be wasting my time if I were to go out this weekend (I don’t feel like driving to Pyramid Lake)?  The water seems very cold, but does that mean trout go totally dormant in the winter.  What patterns work this time of year.

HI CHUCK-    Our weather has been unseasonably warm with resultant runoff. The fishing is poor in the river. Sorry.    -Ralph —

Response:

Question:

I’d like to learn how to fly fish, and I’m thinking about attending the LL Bean Fly Fishing School in Freeport. Does anyone have any good or bad comments about this school? Does anyone know of any other fly fishing schools in the Northeast? — Michael D’Alessandro, M.D., Deptartment of Radiology, The Children’s Hospital, Boston

Response:

I highly recommend the LL Bean Fly Fishing School.  My husband Scott and I attended the Introductory school in Freeport last April.  The student/instructor ratio is good; there were about 8 instructors and maybe 35 students.  The sessions were a nice mix of classroom time and time on the water.  They pack a lot of information in 3 days and everything ran like clockwork; they really have their act together.  In addition to the casting lessons there were sessions on fly tying, knots, bugs, reading the water, and safety. Every instructor was very enthusiastic about the sport and that really came through in the sessions.  In addition to learning a lot, being there was just a lot of fun. The course runs about $400, and was well worth the cost.  I’m not sure about the Intermediate school at a fishing camp in Grand Lake Stream, now up to $1200… Good Luck, -Cathy p.s  Good coffee there too!

Response: