Question:

I read with interest the posts about Sage’s Lifetime Warranty, since about a month ago I made my first truly absurd flyfishing purchase, a Scott S3 5 weight 4 piece (I was able to get a $200.00 discount from the retail price, but that alone says how expensive they can be). All my previous experience has been with a fly rod from Walmart (literally), and an old St. Croix Legend 4 weight rod (what they now call an Imperial). With these rods you could lift a bowling ball without worrying about breaking the rod (well, not quite).  I used to wonder why other flyfishers broke rods so often, when I never really worried about it. One day with my Scott S3 showed me how fragile a fly rod can be.  I was playing a brown trout (best fish of the day) with too much of a jerking motion, and snap, the rod broke just above the first connection. I just finished composing my letter of woe to Scott, and after lunch the rod will be mailed. I am interested in the experiences of other Scott rod owners with their warranty program, and whether Scott will be around 5 years from now. Memphis Jim (I can’t turn on the TV without seeing Elvis).

Response:

Scott is a *great* rod company. I’ve owned various Scott rods since 1975. I broke my STS 905-4 last year in Northern Quebec falling over a rock; all I had to send back to Scott was the lowest 14" of the handle–everything else was at the bottom of the headwaters of the Caniapiscau River. The rod was replaced promptly–no questions asked. There was *no* defect–it was a clumsy dumbass move on my part–and I was very honest and upfront with Scott by telling them that.   The lady I talked to said:  "An unconditional guarantee is just that–unconditional. Send it back to us–and we’ll ship you a new one." They did–promptly.   I have no idea if the Scott Rod Company will be around 5 years from now–but I certainly hope so.   Dave M

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read with interest the posts about Sage’s Lifetime Warranty, since about a month ago I made my first truly absurd flyfishing purchase, a Scott S3 5 weight 4 piece (I was able to get a $200.00 discount from the retail price, but that alone says how expensive they can be). All my previous experience has been with a fly rod from Walmart (literally), and an old St. Croix Legend 4 weight rod (what they now call an Imperial). With these rods you could lift a bowling ball without worrying about breaking the rod (well, not quite).  I used to wonder why other flyfishers broke rods so often, when I never really worried about it. One day with my Scott S3 showed me how fragile a fly rod can be.  I was playing a brown trout (best fish of the day) with too much of a jerking motion, and snap, the rod broke just above the first connection. I just finished composing my letter of woe to Scott, and after lunch the rod will be mailed. I am interested in the experiences of other Scott rod owners with their warranty program, and whether Scott will be around 5 years from now. Memphis Jim (I can’t turn on the TV without seeing Elvis).

Response:

I fell against a tree holding my Scott G906 last year.  The section just ahead of the grip was crushed.  Scott replaced the rod without question and I got GREAT service.  I’ll buy a Scott every chance I get.  Not only for their service, I prefer their action over most rods I run across. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read with interest the posts about Sage’s Lifetime Warranty, since about a month ago I made my first truly absurd flyfishing purchase, a Scott S3 5 weight 4 piece (I was able to get a $200.00 discount from the retail price, but that alone says how expensive they can be). All my previous experience has been with a fly rod from Walmart (literally), and an old St. Croix Legend 4 weight rod (what they now call an Imperial). With these rods you could lift a bowling ball without worrying about breaking the rod (well, not quite).  I used to wonder why other flyfishers broke rods so often, when I never really worried about it. One day with my Scott S3 showed me how fragile a fly rod can be.  I was playing a brown trout (best fish of the day) with too much of a jerking motion, and snap, the rod broke just above the first connection. I just finished composing my letter of woe to Scott, and after lunch the rod will be mailed. I am interested in the experiences of other Scott rod owners with their warranty program, and whether Scott will be around 5 years from now. Memphis Jim (I can’t turn on the TV without seeing Elvis).

Response:

Amen, Clark.  If these guys werent’t so busy breaking and crushing their Scott rods, maybe James Barna wouldn’t need a $200 discount to buy a new rod… Perhaps a new poll is in order: How many ROFFians have ever had the opportunity to test the warranty on their gear?  Rod, reel, waders, whatever.  30 Day warranty, lifetime warranty, no matter. Tom G

Haven’t broken one of my rod blanks yet (the fates will strike me for sure, now) but I did send back a Loomis GL3 8′ 3 wt. rod with a bend in the tip that I had not noticed when I bought it.  They replaced it with a rod that was worse (mushy action, off centre reel seat and epoxy on the seat threads).  I sent that one back to have the reel seat redone – OK after that but the action of rod no.2 wasn’t nearly as crisp as rod no.1 despite that they were supposed to be identical 3 wts.  A couple of months later, I sold rod no.2 on eBay to a guy that was looking for a slow 2/3 wt. – the Loomis fit the bill and he was a very happy camper.  I thought rod no.2 was crap – whatever floats your boat, I suppose.  Haven’t bought a Loomis product since.  They did repair and return promptly though, as  I suppose they get lots of practice. I also sent back a Hardy 3 wt. to Cortland as the handle cork cracked when fighting a nice, fat, little 16" steelhead that wasn’t supposed to be in that part of the stream.  It was repaired and returned promptly. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

 Perhaps a new poll is in order:  How many ROFFians have ever had the opportunity to test the warranty  on their gear?  Rod, reel, waders, whatever.  30 Day warranty,  lifetime warranty, no matter.    Tom G  I have returned many items over the years; my "satisfaction level" runs the whole range. Best of the best: Galvan reels- I called them and asked for a replacement part (my fault it broke), and they replaced the whole thing for free. St Croix rods- Super fast replacement, didn’t charge for shipping, didn’t care that I broke the rod in a bicycle accident. REC Components- Sent free parts to replace the ones I’d stupidly lost. Cabelas- No questions asked, ever. Okay service, but not dazzling: Sage- Two week turnaround, they always seem to charge for shipping. Cortland- Slow turn around time. Ross reels- They took care of the problem, but it shouldn’t be sooo recurring. Crappy service, they’ve lost a customer: Redington- Kept a returned custom rod, forcing me to replace all the components. Redington again- Required the original bill of sale (which I didn’t have) on a pair of waders with a supposed four year unconditional warranty, even though they’d only been selling those waders for two years. Trout Traps- "Nobody’s ever made that complaint, it must be your imagination." Worst of the worst: Airflo lines: "Uhh, you’re shit out of luck son."

Response:

      Fuck Redington and all the re-labled imported crap they sell. I will never spend another penny on their crap. Did you consider calling them and asking about obtaining the original? They are a pretty good group of guys to work with and I bet you could have received the original hardware.  The stuff may be re-labled, but it’s not all crap.

    Yup, I called them and they told me to piss off, they’d already discarded it. I met Jim Murphy a few years ago and he seemed like a pretty decent guy, but he has some bozos working for him. Anybody who builds rods would have known what to do, but nobody at Redington builds them, they are strictly a marketing operation. And their stuff may not be all crap, but none of it is made in this hemisphere.

Response:

Not bad for a bunch of them jamokes & scaramouches.   Meow. <vbg

Man, there’s nothing like a good Tony Germuga reference to brighten one’s day. Thanks, Joe. It’s the classics that keep ya coming back . – Sid …waiting for DaveS’s next installment in the "Two Dogs Fucking" saga.

Response:

Brought it into my flyshop (Coleman’s), No charge, not even shipping. Not bad for a bunch of them jamokes & scaramouches.   Meow. <vbg Joe F.

<SPLORK VANG MU — Scott Reverse first field of address to reply

Response:

    Fuck Redington and all the re-labled imported crap they sell. I will never spend another penny on their crap.

Did you consider calling them and asking about obtaining the original?   They are a pretty good group of guys to work with and I bet you could have received the original hardware.  The stuff may be re-labled, but it’s not all crap.

Response:

    Since everybody else is telling rod replacment stories, here’s my latest one.     A couple of years ago, I donated a 8′ 2wt Redington to a clave raffle. The rod was almost new, I’d fished it for less than hour. This was a custom built rod by a fairly experienced rod builder (me). The first time Willi took it out, the tip section snapped off. I returned the rod to Redington and recieved the entire rod back, along with a new tip section, so I was able to re-use all the old parts and face no out of pocket expenses, other than shipping.     Willi gave the rod to Warren last year. Warren didn’t even get it out of the tube; on a flight to somewhere, Warren got to his destination and removed the rod from the tube and found the tip section snapped off. I again returned the rod to Redington and they replaced it, but this time they kept the original, forcing me to buy all the parts I’d need to finish it. The parts they returned miked out exactly the same as the ones I sent in, so I think this is their not-so-subtle way of "taking care of" a problem customer (assuming they keep records of multiple returns).     Fuck Redington and all the re-labled imported crap they sell. I will never spend another penny on their crap.

Response:

Perhaps a new poll is in order: How many ROFFians have ever had the opportunity to test the warranty on their gear?  Rod, reel, waders, whatever.  30 Day warranty, lifetime warranty, no matter.

Tom, I’ve used the warranties on a number of products. 1. Patagonia waders. – Replaced with a new pair.  Initial estimate for replacement was 3-4 mos.  Ended up getting a new pair within a month. 2. Patagonia wading boots. – Replaced with a new pair. 3. Redington waders. – Replaced with a new pair.  Purchased first pair when I thought the Patagonia waders would take 3 mos to be replaced. 4. Scott Fly Rod – Repaired within a week. —  Nice shirt. Do they sell mens clothes where you bought that?

Response:

  Just for fun, I managed to break the same   six weight again on my very next trip to Minnesota (this on a 32" long   channel cat that ate my clouser and proceeded to tear up about 100 yards of   river, break my rod tip in two places at the landing point with violent   twisting, and then drove the hook into my thumb just for grins). The only rod I ever broke on a fish was on a Catfish too (no warranty though). They are POWERFUL fish. It was a Cat close to twenty pounds that took a tiny fly I use for Crappie. Willi

Response:

Brought it into my flyshop (Coleman’s), No charge, not even shipping.

Not bad for a bunch of them jamokes & scaramouches.   Meow. <vbg Joe F.

Response:

Perhaps a new poll is in order: How many ROFFians have ever had the opportunity to test the warranty on their gear?  Rod, reel, waders, whatever.  30 Day warranty, lifetime warranty, no matter.

Only once so far.  Cabelas Three Forks 3wt rod.  I busted the tip in the screen door.  They replaced it, didn’t even ask how it broke. I also have the Three Forks boot foot waders, in which I get wet (damp) from the knees down every time I use them.  Can never figure out if it’s from leaks or perspiration, so I just keep using them. Bill

Response:

I am interested in the experiences of other Scott rod owners with their warranty program, and whether Scott will be around 5 years from now.

I don’t own one, but a buddy has broken three in the last 18 months, all of which were replaced without hesitation or question. It’s amazing, but I also know about five other guys who won’t touch any other brand and have not ever broken one. -G

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I fell against a tree holding my Scott G906 last year.  The section just ahead of the grip was crushed.  Scott replaced the rod without question and I got GREAT service.  I’ll buy a Scott every chance I get.  Not only for their service, I prefer their action over most rods I run across. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine! I read with interest the posts about Sage’s Lifetime Warranty, since about  a month ago I made my first truly absurd flyfishing purchase, a Scott S3 5 weight 4 piece (I was able to get a $200.00 discount from the retail  price, but that alone says how expensive they can be). All my previous experience has been with a fly rod from Walmart  (literally), and an old St. Croix Legend 4 weight rod (what they now call an Imperial). With these rods you could lift a bowling ball without worrying about breaking the rod (well, not quite).  I used to wonder why other flyfishers broke rods so often, when I never really worried about it. One day with my Scott S3 showed me how fragile a fly rod can be.  I was playing a brown trout (best fish of the day) with too much of a jerking motion, and snap, the rod broke just above the first connection. I just finished composing my letter of woe to Scott, and after lunch the  rod will be mailed. I am interested in the experiences of other Scott rod owners with their warranty program, and whether Scott will be around 5 years from now. Memphis Jim (I can’t turn on the TV without seeing Elvis). Broke a Scott STS 10 weight last year on a 12 lb. Blue Fish.  Sent the rod to Scott and got it back in three weeks!  I own several Scotts! Ssteve

Response:

I am interested in the experiences of other Scott rod owners with their warranty program, and whether Scott will be around 5 years from now.

I’ve never used Scott’s warranty, but I have fished mostly Scott rods for about 25 years (I have 9 Scott rods right now). Only one was ever broken, but that was prior to the warranty program’s existence and the replacement was paid for by the airline that broke it. — Charlie…

Response:

@posting.google.com: Perhaps a new poll is in order: How many ROFFians have ever had the opportunity to test the warranty on their gear?  Rod, reel, waders, whatever.  30 Day warranty, lifetime warranty, no matter. Tom G

I bought an Orvis Far and Fine.  There were some epoxy drips on the guides that bothered me.  I sent the rod in, complaining of a workmanship problem.   Got the rod back repaired in a timely fashion. Bashed a Lamson reel on the bed of Penn’s Creek–yes, I was holding it at the time. Something got misaligned, and the reel bound. Brought it into my flyshop (Coleman’s), fully expecting Carl to tell me he needed to send it back to Lamson, and that I’d have to pay for the repair.   Carl got the reel back.  They repaired the misalignment, and replaced the spool, but included the old scuffed, but fully functional spool.  No charge, not even shipping. — Scott Reverse first field of address to reply

Response:

I have found that my best fly rods (Orivs Trident) are far more delicate than any other fly or spinning rods I have ever owned.  I am thankful for the warranty and I am happy to pay an additional $100 just to get it – it has paid for itself three times over this year – and the year is not over yet!!!

If I had a car that spent so much time in the shop, I wouldn’t be calling it my "best car". Despite lifetime warrantees, a good rod shouldn’t break if someone breathes near it.  Seems like Orvis is having some QC issues. — Scott Reverse first field of address to reply

Response:

How many ROFFians have ever had the opportunity to test the warranty on their gear?  Rod, reel, waders, whatever.  30 Day warranty, lifetime warranty, no matter.

Never broke a rod.  Busted the crank off an old reel once.  Put it back on with epoxy and it’s still holding ten or twelve years later.  Lost the tip section of what appears to be a 70s vintage Sears glass rod off the roof of a Geo Tracker somewhere between Milwaukee and Penn’s creek.  Still got the butt.  Haven’t investigated the warrantee or applicability of any insurance. Wolfgang

Response:

Although I dont have a Scott, I do have a few Orvis rods with the same type of warranty.  This has been a bad year for me.  In April I broke my six weight when I slipped down a snowy hill and drove the tiptop into the ground – Orvis fixed it no questions asked.  Same week I broke my 8 weight fighting a fairly good pike in a fast moving current. Sent it back in the same package as the six weight.  Just for fun, I managed to break the same six weight again on my very next trip to Minnesota (this on a 32" long channel cat that ate my clouser and proceeded to tear up about 100 yards of river, break my rod tip in two places at the landing point with violent twisting, and then drove the hook into my thumb just for grins).  Called Orvis, told them I was a dumb ass – they said that’s fine… send it back. I have found that my best fly rods (Orivs Trident) are far more delicate than any other fly or spinning rods I have ever owned.  I am thankful for the warranty and I am happy to pay an additional $100 just to get it – it has paid for itself three times over this year – and the year is not over yet!!! YMMV Joe C.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – their service, I prefer their action over most rods I run across. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine! If you stop running across them you wont need to use that guarantee so much Clark Amen, Clark.  If these guys werent’t so busy breaking and crushing their Scott rods, maybe James Barna wouldn’t need a $200 discount to buy a new rod… Perhaps a new poll is in order: How many ROFFians have ever had the opportunity to test the warranty on their gear?  Rod, reel, waders, whatever.  30 Day warranty, lifetime warranty, no matter. Tom G

Response:

Perhaps a new poll is in order: How many ROFFians have ever had the opportunity to test the warranty on their gear?  Rod, reel, waders, whatever.  30 Day warranty, lifetime warranty, no matter.

1 St. Croix LU rod blank, tip section – replaced free of charge (broke in use) 3 STH casette spools – replaced free of charge (cracked) I’ll add that these were replaced by or through my local fly shop.   I don’t even know what the warranty is/was. Joe F.

Response:

Perhaps a new poll is in order: How many ROFFians have ever had the opportunity to test the warranty on their gear?  Rod, reel, waders, whatever.  30 Day warranty, lifetime warranty, no matter.

I had a T&T VE 907S-3 break about 6" from the tip on the 2nd day of use in Denmark this year. They repaired it under warranty, albeit slowly. — Charlie…

Response:

their service, I prefer their action over most rods I run across. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

If you stop running across them you wont need to use that guarantee so much Clark

Response:

their service, I prefer their action over most rods I run across. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine! If you stop running across them you wont need to use that guarantee so much Clark

Amen, Clark.  If these guys werent’t so busy breaking and crushing their Scott rods, maybe James Barna wouldn’t need a $200 discount to buy a new rod… Perhaps a new poll is in order: How many ROFFians have ever had the opportunity to test the warranty on their gear?  Rod, reel, waders, whatever.  30 Day warranty, lifetime warranty, no matter. Tom G

Response:

Question:

Been doing some smallmouth fishing myself.  Its not well known out here; I had a number of trout fisherman try my drift without catching any trout at all.  Imagine that!   They gave up and left and I continued to catch an occasional 2lb smallie.  I have only recently discovered this fishery myself and it makes for  a really nice change of pace.  In fact I am going to leave the stone fly hatch on the South Fork to the YUFFIES and go looking for more smallie water.  I really like those fish… John.

Response:

 The little 10 inch smallie inhaled Dale’s bug but Dianna was able to release with a twist of the wrist without lifting the fish from the water.  It was interesting to note that this section of river has excellent big Bluegill but all the strikes she had came from smallmouth!

I am sorry that the bluegill did not cooperate. I have a hard time testing the flies on smallmouth because there are so few around here. I am sure she had a smile on her face. Thanks for the trip report…I felt like I was there. Big Dale

Response:

 At last, this past weekend saw the Rappahannock water levels fall enough to allow for safer wading.  My wife and I set out early (5:15 am) Sunday morning to be on the river before 6.  I had to make BIG promises about the rest of the day to get her up that time of the morning (4:30).  She actually beat me out the door and we arrived at the river as the sun was coming up over the river.  A long legged wading bird stood sentry on the water, his reflection mirrored in a quiet pool.  Two pair of Mallards moved noisily away from the bank as we walked down the trail.  Dianna carried the Connor rod to gain the advantage of the extra 2 ft. of rod length on this river and the extra weight of the line for larger smallmouth bugs.  I started with a Murray’s Leadeyed Hellgrammite behind an AirFlo super-fast sinking leader and 3 ft. of 1X tippet.  Dianna rigged the Connor up with a floating leader and a BIG DALE FOAM SPIDER.  Being nearly a foot shorter, Dianna fished closer to the bank and I took the middle of the river.  We worked downstream together.  She had the first three strikes and first fish.  Smallmouth bass were eager that morning.  The little 10 inch smallie inhaled Dale’s bug but Dianna was able to release with a twist of the wrist without lifting the fish from the water.  It was interesting to note that this section of river has excellent big Bluegill but all the strikes she had came from smallmouth!  In the meantime, I worked the deeper sloughs fishing the Hellgrammite across and down stripping back in slow twitches.  WHAM!!  A 14" fish!  WHAM!! his grandfather!   WHAM!! the fist fish’s sister/girlfriend (West Virginia?).  The morning was going beautifully.  Dianna paused after a few fish to sit on a large rock and just watch the river.  She spotted a muskrat swimming across and soon a Bald Eagle made his appearance. All fishing action stopped to watch that bird wing gracefully upriver. We fished a while longer then headed out to IHOP for a big breakfast of eggs and Harvest Grain and Nut pancakes.  The hubbub of civilization was just 5 minutes away from our wilderness jaunt on the river. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

At last, this past weekend saw the Rappahannock water levels fall enough to allow for safer wading.

        (neat report snipped) thanks for reviving some great memories of that gorgeous river! wayno

Response:

thanks for reviving some great memories of that gorgeous river! wayno

We were fishing just about 200 yards downstream of where we were wading when Anthony caught his first smallie.  Warmer weather but that pink glow in the sky from sunrise and water temperature about 75.  Nice caddis hatch coming off. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

I may not speak for the majority, but I know I speak for many of my long-time flyfishing friends… A River Runs Thru It is not and never will be our favorite flyfishing movie!  My respects of course to Mr. Maclean and his talents.  Had he known what the effects of the film would be on many of our previously uncrowded and pristine streams and rivers, he may have had second thoughts on the film rights.

Response:

Good book though… What is your favorite flyfishing movie?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I may not speak for the majority, but I know I speak for many of my long-time flyfishing friends… A River Runs Thru It is not and never will be our favorite flyfishing movie!  My respects of course to Mr. Maclean and his talents.  Had he known what the effects of the film would be on many of our previously uncrowded and pristine streams and rivers, he may have had second thoughts on the film rights.

Response:

Good book though… What is your favorite flyfishing movie?

The River Wild . . . wait they used guns, not fly rods.

Response:

My respects of course to Mr. Maclean and his talents.  Had he known what the effects of the film would be on many of our previously uncrowded and pristine streams and rivers, he may have had second thoughts on the film rights.

What?!? You don’t like it when you go fishing and somebody comes up to you and asks "I heard they filmed ‘A River Runs Through It’ around here.  Was it here?" Seriously have had people ask me that before. Too bad they didn’t set it in CA and then they could have just toured their own state.

Response:

Hi I’m one of the owners of Reel Deals Movie Posters. We carry hundreds of movie posters and sell them all over the world. I’m certain we have movie posters for your favorite movies. Check out our web site. The prices are reasonable. Web address: http://www.reeldeals.com

Response:

Question:

The old needle nose pliers work fine for #14 and larger hooks … but for the small stuff … like #20’s … need something else … what tools are being used for this purpose by the tiers out there …. John

Response:

John, I have a pair of miniature needle nose pliers which I keep in my fly tying box for this purpose.  I bend the barb down before tying the fly because some times the hook breaks.  When on the stream I use my forceps.  Keep the hook near the hinges so you have enough leverage. Ernie Harrison Like to make fly-fishing stuff?  See: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The old needle nose pliers work fine for #14 and larger hooks … but for the small stuff … like #20’s … need something else … what tools are being used for this purpose by the tiers out there …. John

Response:

John- Try going to an electronics shop or a hobby/craft store and buy a pair of smooth jawed needlenose pliers with the spring between the handles to hold the jaws open. Larry #:)#

Response:

: The old needle nose pliers work fine for #14 and larger hooks … but for : the small stuff … like #20’s … need something else … what tools are : being used for this purpose by the tiers out there …. John : : A medium or small set of hemostats works fine for most sizes of hooks. For some of the Japanese hooks with very small barbs, you can use a hook hone or file.  For big hooks I use a set of miniature channel locks, also sold by Sears as ignition pliers.  They’re especially useful on Bass Bug hooks and the large offset shank hooks used for Texas rigging worms and grubs. And they are much more useful than needle nose pliers for small nuts and bolts or straightening buzzbait and spinnerbait wires, unclamping sinkers, or fixing the motor. BG

Response:

If only the manufacturers were willing to make a far better selection of barbless hooks, then perhaps this wouldn’t even be an issue. I’m often disappointed at the lack of barbless hooks available our local shops. RG : The old needle nose pliers work fine for #14 and larger hooks … but for : the small stuff … like #20’s … need something else … what tools are : being used for this purpose by the tiers out there …. John

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Greetings, John : : The old needle nose pliers work fine for #14 and larger hooks … but for : the small stuff … like #20’s … need something else … what tools are : being used for this purpose by the tiers out there …. John

  You might go to your friendly neighborhood jewelry store and ask them to order you a pair of really smooth, well-aligned jewelers needle-nose pliers.  If they do any kind of repair or fabrication at all, they should have a catalog of jewelers tools for you to look at.  These pliers are available in some really small sizes, and will do the job on all your tiny hooks.  This is what I use.  Expect to pay around $17 or $20 bucks for quality pliers, but they will last you forever….   Cheers, and happy tying,   -Mark

Response:

Question:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer.

Me too. I don’t know how far around the block this conversation has gone, but for my way over 2-cents worth of experience goes, there is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer.  Period.  Anyone buying a canoe should plan an spending a little more for this boat as a starter, then expect to never need to buy another all-around canoe again. See my sig file. — riverman I think, therefore I thwim. Carpe ropum. "There is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer. Period."

Response:

I love Mad River boats BUT one might get a little argument about the Explorer being the best all rounder from Swift Kipawa fans. who would suggest that the Kipawa is more stable more speedy (and faster too) more capacious more maneuverable more white water capable more seaworthy and more perttier. — Lyle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. Me too. I don’t know how far around the block this conversation has gone, but for my way over 2-cents worth of experience goes, there is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer.  Period.  Anyone buying a canoe should plan an spending a little more for this boat as a starter, then expect to never need to buy another all-around canoe again. See my sig file. — riverman I think, therefore I thwim. Carpe ropum. "There is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer. Period."

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. Me too. I don’t know how far around the block this conversation has gone, but for my way over 2-cents worth of experience goes, there is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer.  Period.  Anyone buying a canoe should plan an spending a little more for this boat as a starter, then expect to never need to buy another all-around canoe again. See my sig file.

If you want one boat that will do everything, I agree (though I haven’t tried the Swift).  If you want a boat for primarily or exclusively flatwater, then there are better choices out there in composite/fiberglass/kevlar — Andrew

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer.

It’s been a while since I purchased my first boat, and I don’t know much about what’s out there, but my general comment would be buy the best boat you can afford.  Don’t spare the horses.  Talk to people in a local canoe and kayak club, and get their recommendations on brands. Tell them what you want to do with the boat–that’s the important part.

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. It’s been a while since I purchased my first boat, and I don’t know much about what’s out there, but my general comment would be buy the best boat you can afford.  Don’t spare the horses.  Talk to people in a local canoe and kayak club, and get their recommendations on brands. Tell them what you want to do with the boat–that’s the important part.

I’ve been a kayaker for a while now, but just recently my new girlfriend wanted a canoe for us.  Have been looking for a used Royalite, or Royalex canoe for a couple months — just today we found it! I consulted with other canoe-types in the club, and this Mohawk Nova 16 (or other similar brands/models) seemed to do it all.  It is Royalex.  This is the exact one we got today, used for $500 with four float bags.  Boats like this are sort of "Do It All" dealies. Each time some new person asks "Which Canoe should i get?" i always say ‘Buy a used, decent brand’ and this is the first time i’ve had to try it out. We like this boat!

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I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. I own both an Old Town Discovery and the Explorer, and find the Old Town is too heavy to carry any distance (not to mention lift). The Explorer is lighter, handles better, and yes, it’s easier on the eyes. The Discovery might plow through rocks better, but takes on water in the slightest chops. I used to own a Coleman, I’m glad it died an ugly rocky death long ago. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/5189/index.htm Reach out and touch a rock – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

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The coleman is a good boat for short paddles around a quiet lake once in a while

With a dang, clanging Coleman, the lake’s not going to stay quiet for long. It’s practically a percussion instrument Eddy "Colemans are for keeping beer cool" Rapid.

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It sounds like you’ve been doing your research.  I agree with all your points. About three years ago, I faced the same question.  Like you, I wanted the best for the least.  I purchased a OT Disco158.  I like it fine but if I had the opportunity to make that decision again, I would save a little more money and by the lighter boat with a more efficient hull.  I use it mostly for day paddling with my wife or fishing with my children.  I’ve run a class III in it but don’t suggest it.  I’ve paddled it 32 miles through the Okeefenokee swamp and camped out of it.  I am not interested in getting rid of it but, would not buy another. I understand the Disco169 has a more efficient hull but, it weighs in at a hefty 85lbs. You will find that weight makes more of a difference than you think.  I can car-top my 80lb canoe by myself but "it ain’t pretty."  The yolk makes it easier to carry but it still weighs 80lbs.  A lighter canoe will respond better to corrections/steering and may even be a little faster. If you can stand to wait, I’d recommend it.  You’ll just end up wanting to buy different one in a few years.  I would have by now but I am discovering both sea and whitewater kayaks! Oh yeah, one other thing.  If you really think you’re going to enjoy the sport, don’t give the Coleman too much thought.  You really DO get what you pay for in a canoe. Eric da Grate – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

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Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death…    

                        ~* s n i p *~ If you don’t mind the $65 or so shipping charge, try calling one of the companies someone mentioned else mentioned earlier: Rutabaga in Madison, Wisconsin sells LOTS of boats.  They always have new Old Town blems on hand at a greatly reduced rate.  Not a bad deal for a first boat.   They will be getting lots of used boats in another month after their annual "Canoecopia" show; many people will be trading in their boats for something new. Give them a call at 800-472-3353 (800-I-PADDLE) or check out their website:  www.paddlers.com Tell Darren I sent ya. Good luck. — To reply by email, remove mapson. from the edress Check out the links page at this site: www.paddlers.com

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Thank you all for the replies & advice. I realize that researching a purchase like this, then even trying out different boats would be the best of all worlds, but hearing from folks that have been there is also a definite help. Thanks again!

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If the Coleman is the only way you are going to get on the water, do it!  If you want a boat, get one of the others.  Go demo some boats. The newsgroups cannot tell you how you will feel in a boat.  you need to try them.  Borrow a Coleman and then you can feel the pain in your lower back as you haul it to the water.  Then you will be informed. Try a lake boat with a keel in a moving river and learn why a keel is not too swell in moving water.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

patrickatcyberhighwaydotnet

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Hello!

Well hello to you! I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe.

Actually, they aren’t.  Not compared to Old Town, Mad RIver, Mohawk, etc.  I wouldn’t want to hit too many rocks with a coleman.  Aluminum canoes are extremely durable, but, and this is a BIG BUTT, it’s hard to keep the suckers quiet.  Each and every time you place your paddle in the boat, you and every fish within 300 feet will hear the ‘thud’. I hear the Boy Scouts using them all the time at Upper Priest lake in Idaho…very noisy. already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

You live around here in Spokane?  You join the Spokane Canoe and Kayak Club yet?  I’m the newsletter editor.  We’re having our largest meeting/auction/potluck of the year come February 26th — next friday. If you wanna see a LOT of activity, come see it.  Email me if you want more info.

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For the money you’re looking to spend, I would suggest you test paddle an OT Penobscot 17.  I’ve used mine quite a bit on lakes in minneapolis and in the BWCA.  It’s got moderate initial stability, fantastic secondary stability.  It has no rocker so it tracks like a arrow, but turns like a pig.  Leaning into a turn can give you a good bit of effective rocker.  Its a great tripping boat.

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Tom, I was in your position a few years ago, let me tell you what I bought. I found that the best tradeoff for weight, durability, and cost, for lake and occasional class I/II rivers is fiberglass.  Not the cheap chopper gun variety, but a canoe made up of decent sheet materials.  I chose a Wenonah, largely because I have a great local dealer who sells them (as well as Mad River). Fiberglass advantages are hull stiffness without bulk which = paddling efficiency, no flex while paddling, easily repairable if it does become damaged, etc.  Fiberglass slips across rocks in a low water condition much better than aluminum – avoid that material at all costs if you plan on running low water.  About the only disadvantage is that the gel coat looks beautiful when new, and quickly gets scraped up pretty bad – but that means you’re actually USING the boat, doesn’t it? Your ideal boat in a plastic would be royalex – much lighter than the Old Town crosslink.  It’s well worth the upgrade cost.  I see tons of the Discovery boats for sale – and no royalex boats for sale!! You don’t find many (good) canoes for sale, because most people have no reason to sell them! They’re not that expensive, and last a lifetime with reasonable care. Good luck! Lou – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

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Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

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Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe.

Yes, it has been done a lot, infact I bet a search on dejanews (www.dejanews.com) would answer most if not all your questions. The coleman is a good boat for short paddles around a quiet lake once in a while, or for giving to a scout troop to learn in (cheap and nigh on industructible).  I have an old town discovery 164 which is about the same as the penobscott, just weighs more… a lot more on a long portage. Personally I’d look around for a used good boat, and stay away from the colemans. Hope this helps Rich Johnson Enfield Nova Scotia Canada

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For flatwater, class I and Class II a good quality fiberglass (cloth, not spray in chopper gun) canoe would be the best bet.  I’d look for a used one, some places (like Rutabaga in Madison, WI and Piragis in ELY, MN) sell a number of used boats like that.  A new We-No-Nah in Tufweave (fiberglass like) can be had for $8-900.  Western Canoeing has similar boats.  Used Kevlar could be in the same range, used fiberglass less. These would work for Class I, not good for Class III, Class II depends on skill level.  For mostly whitewater, Royalex is a better choice, but maybe you can borrow a canoe for those infrequent forays?  It will be heavier and harder to paddle.  Coleman’s are a poor design, Discovery’s are (in the 16′ 9" and 17′ 4" versions) an okay design, but overy heavy and don’t have the long term durability of Royalex. Aluminum is a fine material for flatwater, as good or better than plastic, but can be dangerous in whitewater and a pain in shallow rivers as it tends to stick to rocks, so it’s easy to get stuck and broach. I’d rather (actually I do) have a 17′ Grumman than a Coleman or Discovery. I’d look for a quality fiberglass or used Kevlar boat from We-No-Nah, Mad River, Western, Sawyer. — Andrew Gooding

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Question:

#but hes like the Senator from my state Jesse #Helms. You may not always agree with him but you always know where #he stands, #he doesn’t teeter or waiver from his beliefs. somebody said back there a bit–if it’s true, why isn’t Jesse insisting that the coons stay in their own part of town as he did back in the good old days? Helms changes, like everybody whose standards are flexible and who considers himself to be a man of principle but returns to the senate voluntarily.  (and many thinking folks hope he comes to his senses.) As for Gierach, he’s an excellent stylist with an ironic wit, and it’s all fiction mind you, which appellation our BB seems to aspire to much more recently. "Strait-laced" as Shakespeare (or should I say the Earl of Oxford?) had it–the pompous Malvolio of Twelfth Night made a fool of himself by coming around in the opposite look, the dandified and contrived "cross-gartered" style. . .in other words, he went out as what he wasn’t, and was laughed off the creek for it.  Went insane, if I remember correctly.  And Shakespeare wrote about what he wasn’t for a buck, collected "such rascal counters" happily; he would have signed his name for more if he’d had the chance, I reckon. Dave

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I actually met John Gierach in Lyons, Colorado at Mike Clarks shop  this last fall.  We stopped by the shop on our way to the Frying Pan.  John G.  was actually very pleasant and eventhough he didn’t have to stay and talk, he did. I haven’t read all the posts about him, but wanted to put in me 2 cents worth about my brief contact with him and how he seemed like a pretty decent guy, besides being a great writer!

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I met John Gierach in Lyons, Colorado at Mike Clarks shop… John was

actually very pleasant and even though he didn’t have to stay and talk, he did. … he seemed like a pretty decent guy,besides being a great writer! Hey Skilch, you’re right about Gierach. I live "up the road" from John, and bump into him, Mike, and the clan on the high country streams occasionally. I’ve also yakked with him at Mike’s rod shop, and been to John’s fly tying clinics. I don’t know Gierach very well, but I like the guy – and I certainly admire what he’s been able to accomplish in his career. Anybody who can win the Robert Traver Award for excellence in outdoor writing, author thousands of magazine articles, newspapers columns, and ten of the best selling fly fishing books in recent history is bound to invite some criticism from those who wish to hell they had his gift – and his success. Too bad. Regards, Dennis

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[deleted] and ten of the best selling fly fishing books in recent history is bound to invite some criticism from those who wish to hell they had his gift – and his success.

Please. Noone (at least not me) is being critical of either: 1) the fact that john is a nice guy  or 2) that they envy his gifts. If you read past the subject line in these posts, you would have had no need to defend him on those scores. In my critical estimation, as a consumer of flyfishing books, John Gierach is a good writer, but not a great writer.  He got someone to publish him, in my opinion, and the rest is history.   Steve Spinolio is a better writer, in my book, than John Gierach, or Russell Chatham.   I enjoy John Geirach at least as much or more than E. Donnel Thomas, "Whitefish Can’t Jump", but they are very much on the same, simple, short story format that does not define great writers.   I like Ted Lesson’s writing better than Gierach. Again, it has nothing to do with John being a good guy or a clever successful hard-working man.  I am certain that he is all that.  You don’t buy a flyrod or a car for that matter just because the builder is a ‘nice guy’.   I liked James Bashline, who was not a writer, really…but offered me something of value in "Nightfishing for Trout". A sad truth is, IMO, the sale of books often has as much to do with the publishers backing them and the level of gloss on the dust jacket as it does quality of content.  The best thing you could do as a writer is get Nick Lyon’s in your court.  That is power there. The number of sales define the number of awards and some of us are simply critical of the writing itself and are not star struck, nor do we have penis envy.  In Johns case, he has moments of really good stuff, but overall the stuff is repetitive, monotonous, politically correct and often boring.   To me, life offers more exciting fishing trips than John Gierach does in his writing.   So sue me. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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: In my critical estimation, as a consumer of flyfishing books, John Gierach : is a good writer, but not a great writer.  He got someone to publish him, in : my opinion, and the rest is history.   Steve Spinolio is a better writer, in : my book, than John Gierach, or Russell Chatham.   I didn’t know Spinolio had written anything beyond a post or two, one of which I have on my office wall.  Where can I find his writing?   To be a writer, one must write.  I battle with this everyday.  I suspect most do. At the very least, Gierach writes in large amount.  That’s something to be proud of.   — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Does Gierach still live in Lyons? I spent summers there (I’m an East Coast boy) in the early ’70’s and fished the St. Vrain top to bottom–my grandfather owned the trailer park in the big bend just outside of Lyons (next box up from the park.) I think I trespassed on his property a few times. Dave

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:I enjoy John Geirach at :least as much or more than E. Donnel Thomas, "Whitefish Can’t Jump", but :they are very much on the same, simple, short story format that does not :define great writers. You were doing just fine Moe until you said the above which caused me to laugh out loud. You can’t take those darn short stories seriously, you slay me sometimes… TC

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they are very much on the same, simple, short story format that does not define great writers.

I gotta wonder what Ernest Hemmingway woulda said about that. Big Two Hearted River for example, is far from simple. Ben

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: In my critical estimation, as a consumer of flyfishing books, John Gierach : is a good writer, but not a great writer.  He got someone to publish him, in : my opinion, and the rest is history.   Steve Spinolio is a better writer, in : my book, than John Gierach, or Russell Chatham.   I didn’t know Spinolio had written anything beyond a post or two, one of which I have on my office wall.  Where can I find his writing?  

Any idea when he is to return? Or if he will? Kiyu

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I actually met John Gierach in Lyons, Colorado at Mike Clarks shop  this last fall.  We stopped by the shop on our way to the Frying Pan.  John G.  was actually very pleasant and eventhough he didn’t have to stay and talk, he did. I haven’t read all the posts about him, but wanted to put in me 2 cents worth about my brief contact with him and how he seemed like a pretty decent guy, besides being a great writer!

If Geirach is really the guy he says he is in his writing, then he reallly doesn’t give a rat’s ass about all these postings about him, pro and con. If he logs on to defend himself, you may be assured he is a fraud. I predict with the former.  One problem I see here is that many insist on judging him as a flyfisherman, based on his writings. The only way you can judge him as a flyfisher, is to fly fish with him. As a reader, you must judge him as an outdoor writer, an entertainer, if you will. On that basis I find him well worth an evening in the easy chair. Since I haven’t fished with him, I can’t comment on the other. DAO DAO

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If Geirach is really the guy he says he is in his writing, then he reallly

doesn’t give a rat’s ass about all these postings about him, pro and con. If he logs on to defend himself, you may be assured he is a fraud. Funny you should bring that up, Dale. I was with John for an hour or so last week, and asked him if he was aware of the dialog about him on the internet. He just chuckled and said, "Yeah,  the guys told me about it. Sounds like those people are pissing away some good fishing time wrangling over nothing." … or words to that effect. He won’t be logging on. He doesn’t own a computer. As a reader, you must judge him as an outdoor writer, an entertainer, if you

will. On that basis I find him, well worth an evening in the easy chair.< Precisely.

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If you read past the subject line in these posts, you would have had no needto

defend him on those scores. Your right Moe, I was arguing apples and oranges here. My apologies.  He got someone to publish him, in

my opinion, and the rest is history. Right again, but he didn’t get just "anyone" to publish him. Pruett, Lyons, Simon & Shuster and Stackpole are hardly the kind of publishing houses to invest in ho-hum writers. <  Steve Spinolio is a better writer, inmy book, than John Gierach, or Russell Chatham … or E. Donnel Thomas I’m not familiar with Spinolio. Is he someone I should be reading. Know where I can find any of his stuff?, but they are very much on the same, simple, short story format that does not

define great writers.  I suspect you may open a real can of worms with that judgement, Moe. A sad truth is, IMO, the sale of books often has as much to do with the

publishers backing them and the level of gloss on the dust jacket as it does quality of content. Maybe, but again, big publishing houses aren’t likely to invest in writers whose work doesn’t sell. As for" quality of content", that’s a pretty subjective matter.   The number of sales define the number of awards… I’m not so sure that’s an accurate statement. Lyons didn’t publish Trout Bum, nor much of Gierach’s other works. And if I’m not mistaken, John won the Traver Award for a fictional piece that appeared in FR & R. nor do we have penis envy.

????Where’d that come from?   In Johns case, he has moments of really good stuff, but overall the stuff is repetitive, monotonous, politically correct and often boring.  To me, life offers more exciting fishing trips than John Gierach does in his writing.  So sue me. Actually, I’d rather go fishing with you, but If I were to sue-  and win – how much could I get? later DES

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To be a writer, one must write.  I battle with this everyday.  I suspect most

do. Amen to that. At the very least, Gierach writes in large amount.  That’s something to be

proud of. And to that one, as well. DES

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Much of Shakepeare’s work was "formulaic" and "Typical" yet in retrospect his work is viewed as "ground breaking".  Perhaps Gierach’s stuff needs the appreciation that only time and distance can impart to the nonappreciative and overly cautious segments of his audience.

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I find it humerous that all these straight laced flyfisherman find the time to criticize one of their own. I pose a question to any of you who find it within your right to criticize John at a personal or professional level:Have you ever had a conversation with the man? Do you know him and how he lives and his quality of life? I think that most critics would say NO to these questions. John is a very simple man. He’s a very acute journalist who has developed a style both in and out of the newspapers of his own. He is a fine flyfisherman and a generally nice guy to know. Most people who know him feel the same way. If one thing you can say of John, and I hope not to insult him with this comparison, but hes like the Senator from my state Jesse Helms. You may not always agree with him but you always know where he stands, he doesn’t teeter or waiver from his beliefs. A quality I believe to be a goal for most men. The other point is I believe that most flyfisherman, a strangely stoic bunch as it goes, are somewhat jealous of a man who can do what most of us want to do ALL the time instead of just some of the time, like most of us. So don’t wander down a road that you’re not familiar with, you may hit a tree or a parked car or Butch, the local dog who everybody in town knows would be sleeping in the road at 2:00pm on a tuesday. It might be hazardous. Jim Brady

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I was with you until you last paragraph. Literature, great and small, is open game to critics and it is wonderful for an author to have a defender. But, to think that people offer an descenting opinion because they are jealous of a guy who fishes for a living is absurd. By in large, my fly fishers are smarter and better read than that. It’s an opinion. Agree. Disagree. Who cares. I can speak to the issue with a decent amount of authority. I have been in the communications industry for 27-plus years and have only fly fished for half that time. Gierach is a fine writer. I have most of his books. But, I think we all can agree that he is not producing groundbreaking work here. His stuff is Day Berry In Waders, whihc is fine. Hell, Dave Berry won a Pulitzer. As much as I like Gierach, he gets, like anyone else who writes for pay alot, myself included, formulaic, and hence some of his stuff becomes "typical". Knowing where someone stands is not necessarily the greatest commendation one can make about literature. Read Mein Kampf and you know where that guy stood too! My view is simple, stuff like Gierach’s should entertain and inform. Period. I do not expect it to change my life or create a new vision for my life. I leave that to far better writers with something to say on the topic. But, as for whiling away an evening after slaving over a hot word processor all day, I’ll take Gierach any day of the week. Ask the man and I am sure he will tell you he is not out to change the world. He’;s a writer and damn few of us are good enough to change the world. But, if we any good at what we do, we can inform and entertain for a while, even a moment. So, lighten up! Besides, I think Gierach is a big boy and can defend himself nicely. Hollis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find it humerous that all these straight laced flyfisherman find the time to criticize one of their own. I pose a question to any of you who find it within your right to criticize John at a personal or professional level:Have you ever had a conversation with the man? Do you know him and how he lives and his quality of life? I think that most critics would say NO to these questions. John is a very simple man. He’s a very acute journalist who has developed a style both in and out of the newspapers of his own. He is a fine flyfisherman and a generally nice guy to know. Most people who know him feel the same way. If one thing you can say of John, and I hope not to insult him with this comparison, but hes like the Senator from my state Jesse Helms. You may not always agree with him but you always know where he stands, he doesn’t teeter or waiver from his beliefs. A quality I believe to be a goal for most men. The other point is I believe that most flyfisherman, a strangely stoic bunch as it goes, are somewhat jealous of a man who can do what most of us want to do ALL the time instead of just some of the time, like most of us. So don’t wander down a road that you’re not familiar with, you may hit a tree or a parked car or Butch, the local dog who everybody in town knows would be sleeping in the road at 2:00pm on a tuesday. It might be hazardous. Jim Brady

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Another follow-up on this thread… Just don’t read or buy the books he has written if you don’t like his writing.  As for me, I like a lot of what John has written. Most of his writing is non-technical, and therefore fine pleasure reading, if I’m into it. While Christmas cleaning btw, I perused through a lot of old Fly Fisherman and Rod and Reel Mags in my collection dating all the way back to the early eighties.  The writer in question (John) has been around for a long time, has "paid his dues," and in a professional sense is worthy of respect even if many people don’t like his work.  No need for debate or slander of the individual on a ng forum. Wayne Fenior Midland, MI – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was with you until you last paragraph. Literature, great and small, is open game to critics and it is wonderful for an author to have a defender. But, to think that people offer an descenting opinion because they are jealous of a guy who fishes for a living is absurd. By in large, my fly fishers are smarter and better read than that. It’s an opinion. Agree. Disagree. Who cares. I can speak to the issue with a decent amount of authority. I have been in the communications industry for 27-plus years and have only fly fished for half that time. Gierach is a fine writer. I have most of his books. But, I think we all can agree that he is not producing groundbreaking work here. His stuff is Day Berry In Waders, whihc is fine. Hell, Dave Berry won a Pulitzer. As much as I like Gierach, he gets, like anyone else who writes for pay alot, myself included, formulaic, and hence some of his stuff becomes "typical". Knowing where someone stands is not necessarily the greatest commendation one can make about literature. Read Mein Kampf and you know where that guy stood too! My view is simple, stuff like Gierach’s should entertain and inform. Period. I do not expect it to change my life or create a new vision for my life. I leave that to far better writers with something to say on the topic. But, as for whiling away an evening after slaving over a hot word processor all day, I’ll take Gierach any day of the week. Ask the man and I am sure he will tell you he is not out to change the world. He’;s a writer and damn few of us are good enough to change the world. But, if we any good at what we do, we can inform and entertain for a while, even a moment. So, lighten up! Besides, I think Gierach is a big boy and can defend himself nicely. Hollis

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Tim, I think if I could paraphrase your response–if you’re gonna set up shop as an icon (or let others set you up), you better expect some iconoclasts will come along. It goes with the job. I have to agree…good, not great. Trouble is, good writers don’t usually stay in print 50 years later. And in 100 years, no one remembers who the good writers were. That’s a tribute for great writers, and I don’t think we should start throwing that appelation around lightly. BTW–do you know where these straight-laced, stoic fishermen are. They’re not around here, that’s for damned sure! I don’t think I last an afternoon fishing with one of ‘em! Roger

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I find it humerous that all these straight laced flyfisherman find the time to criticize one of their own.

        (lots of stuff snipped) , but hes like the Senator from my state Jesse Helms. You may not always agree with him but you always know where he stands, he doesn’t teeter or waiver from his beliefs. A quality I believe to be a goal for most men.

        let me tell you, jack, that he is also my senior senator, a fact that renders me nauseous, but is presently unavoidable.  and if you think ol jesse wouldn’t sell every goddam inch of hazel creek to the highest bidder in the tree cuttin industry, then you are blind as a bat.  and having read gierach, i can’t believe he would accept such a comparison. The other point is I believe that most flyfisherman, a strangely stoic bunch as it goes, are somewhat jealous of a man who can do what most of us want to do ALL the time instead of just some of the time,

        how much the guy fishes has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of his prose.  which, imho, is very high.  but your apology for him, in the face of timbo’s protestations, is lamentable.         a. wayne harrison

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Much of Shakepeare’s work was "formulaic" and "Typical" yet in retrospect his work is viewed as "ground breaking".  Perhaps Gierach’s stuff needs the appreciation that only time and distance can impart to the nonappreciative and overly cautious segments of his audience.

Is it really you ?  I thought you were dead ? Comparing Gierach to Shakespeare ? Like the guy that painted a happy face on a dairy cows underside. Udderly Silly. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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I find it humerous that all these straight laced flyfisherman

I’ve spent enough time around this group the past couple of years to know that most of the laces don’t get any crookeder than the ones you’ll find round here. Nope…not a straight lace in the bunch (I say that with pride, so don’t anyone get offended). Roger

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Much of Shakepeare’s work was "formulaic" and "Typical" yet in retrospect his work is viewed as "ground breaking".  Perhaps Gierach’s stuff needs the appreciation that only time and distance can impart to the nonappreciative and overly cautious segments of his audience.

I would have to disagree on calling much of Shakespeare formulaic or typical. Sure, he may have used some common conventions and story lines adopted from other sources, but if you compare Shakespeare’s King Lear, for example, with contemporary version’s like Nahum Tate’s, Big Bill the Bard’s on a whole new plane. As for Geirach I don’t think the same can be said. I have read and enjoyed his work as light reading over my lunch hour. Or on a camping trip. Groundbreaking? Unconventional? Original? I don’t think so. There is very little that hasn’t been done before by others, and won’t be done again. It’s not even a terribly distinctive voice. This doesn’t make it unpleasant or without value. But I don’t think it’s the kind of stuff posterity is going to elevate into the canon of great works. If you went back 100-200 years and looked at the best selling books…other than the bible, you probably wouldn’t recogize many of them. The reason they were so popular was not that they were original, but rather that they perfectly mimicked the conventions of their day. They appealed to contemporary tastes. That…I think…is what Geirach does. He ain’t writing for the ages. Roger

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Seems to me that how nice a guy a person is, how authentic or otherwise attractive his lifestyle might ain’t got a lot to do with the quality of his writing, and thus the orig. poster just misses the point of some of Gierach’s detractors entirely. Hemmingway, for instance, does not seem to be the kind of guy one would enjoy spending lots of time with, and while through happy circumstances I can afford to fish as much as Gierach (or maybe even more), that don’t make me a writer.         That said, I think that most if not all of Gierach’s detractors miss a point too, and that is that almost no author I know of who has turned out more than just a book or two is able to maintain the same quality of prose over and over and over again. But even then, there are authors who write one great great work and then are either silent or write crap, and others who simply maintain a fairly high level consistently  throughout their careers.         For my money I suspect some of Gierach’s stuff

Question:

I’ve heard the same thing and don’t get it. I’ve fished the Nissitissit and Squannacook six times and never seen a fish, never seen a fly and never seen anyone catch anything with corn, worms or flies. I bought the TU book ages ago and Kaplan’s Middlesex County Rivers book last year, called the local shops and even changed my local TU chapter to the Squan-A-Tissit hoping to at least see a rising fish. I’ve decided it’s a scam supported by the local outfitters. They’re only an hour from my house but a waste of time when an extra hour will get me to the Deerfield, Farmington or N.H. Doug – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I went to fish the Nissitissit this saturday.  I would appreciate any tips people night have.  I have been told that this one of the best trout streams near boston.  But it seemed ‘dead’ to me, still tannic water. I tried the prescott bridge area which seemed in better shape and also the Henry Columbo area.  Does the stream die off in the later summer? How is the fall/winter fishing?

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I’ve heard the same thing and don’t get it. I’ve fished the Nissitissit and Squannacook six times and never seen a fish, never seen a fly and never [snip] While living in Boston, the Niss was a regular stop for me in the fall.  Caught

several large Brownies and saw more than I landed. What takes away from the river is that it warms up badly in the summer, and poaching. Poaching is a major problem in the FFO section.  The last time I was there, in the fall of 95′, a hunter told me that two guys and a can of worms took something like 60 fish out. We have similar problems in W. Pa.  Its a shame, because E. Ma has few opportunities for stream fishing for trout, and the Niss is perhaps one of the best.          good luck,          brad shuster

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Question:

I’ve only gone fishing a few times in my life and I’m currently in the Pittsburgh area.  Since all I have is a fishing rod, what I need is some starting points.  If anyone knows of fishing sites in the Pittsburgh area along with the appropriate season for fishing there, I would appreciate Thanks.

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I’ve only gone fishing a few times in my life and I’m currently in the Pittsburgh area.  Since all I have is a fishing rod, what I need is some starting points.  If anyone knows of fishing sites in the Pittsburgh area along with the appropriate season for fishing there, I would appreciate Thanks.

Serene Fly-Fishing Adventures fishing all of Pa top waters from Erie tribs to W.B.Delaware for wild trout.  Cent Pa limestone contact Pete for mor info.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve only gone fishing a few times in my life and I’m currently in the Pittsburgh area.  Since all I have is a fishing rod, what I need is some starting points.  If anyone knows of fishing sites in the Pittsburgh area along with the appropriate season for fishing there, I would appreciate Thanks. Serene Fly-Fishing Adventures fishing all of Pa top waters from Erie tribs to W.B.Delaware for wild trout.  Cent Pa limestone contact Pete for mor info.

There’s 2 or more books out for streams in PA. Don B. Wishful collector of Gillums and Dickersons – owner of Montague, H-I and Heddons

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Question:

Does Anyone know any good flyfishing rivers/lakes in or near Halifax, NovaScotia? I will be traveling there for about two weeks and would like to know if there even is flyfishing there. Please E-mail me back or just posting it up might be good if I ever see it again.                        Thanx JT

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Does Anyone know any good flyfishing rivers/lakes in or near Halifax, NovaScotia? I will be traveling there for about two weeks and would like to know if there even is flyfishing there. Please E-mail me back or just posting it up might be good if I ever see it again.                       Thanx JT

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Submit one or browse what we’ve got!!! http://www.sklarew.com/vaflyfish/reports/index.html

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Submit one or check out what we have!!! http://www.sklarew.com/vaflyfish/classifieds/index.html

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Please stop by and add your link to our "Add-a-link" section!!! http://www.sklarew.com/vaflyfish/index.html (Netscape 2.0) http://www.sklarew.com/vaflyfish/aol.html (non Netscape Users)

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Stop by our site, add you links, browse our classifieds and Virginia Reports, leave us your comments!!! www.sklarew.com/vaflyfish for netscape users www.sklarew.com/vaflyfish/aol.html for other browsers

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I’ve been out with a pulled back for over one month now!  I pulled it setting up my research project up in the Blue Ridge.  How’s the fly fishing going in VA?  What hatches have come off?  Any successful fishing reports? Thank, steve

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Well, smallmouth fishing in the northern half of the state has been pretty lame due to an unusually wet spring and high water. But I had a great day in May catching native brookies in Shenandoah National Park! Scott W.

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Fishing has gone from poor to worse here at least in northern parts of Virginia since Memorial day. We’ve had record rains and flash flooding. Fishing was fairly good for a short spell about a week ago, but then the rains hit AGAIN!!! Keith in Waterford, VA

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Question:

I have a kit that we have put together to help you make your own hand held fish net. Ideal for the wader or float tuber.  These nets come in a kit with a net, line to attach the net, formed loop and handle.  You glue them together, file, sand and finish the net. This is as much fun as making your own pole.  If you want more information, or a Kit, please e-mail me and I will send you the information.   The Kits sell for 24.99 plus shipping.

For $25, and I provide the labor, it better be made of zebra wood with a black walnut insert!  Fish through. Charley

Response:

I have a kit that we have put together to help you make your own hand held fish net. Ideal for the wader or float tuber.  These nets come in a kit with a net, line to attach the net, formed loop and handle.  You glue them together, file, sand and finish the net. This is as much fun as making your own pole.  If you want more information, or a Kit, please e-mail me and I will send you the information.   The Kits sell for 24.99 plus shipping.

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