Question:

days.  I would guess the tire needed more brakes for some reason in each case. You said it was the home base and the base is notorious for the effect of sudden brakage.

The first plane was a Fed-Ex A-300 out of Newark. They stopped in less than 4000′ of runway. All 8 main tires were blown. Jacks had to be trucked in to raise it up to change the tires. Once it was raised, the brakes wouldn’t disassemble. It was on the runway about 12 hours. Interestingly, it isn’t in the FAA’s incident listings. The second plane was a DC-3 based at nearby airport. Flat tires on taildraggers can be tricky. Fortunately they didn’t ground-loop it. The local newspaper reported that no flights had to divert. You know I sent a sarcastic e-mail to that editor. D.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was a clear calm morning. The sun was just coming up over the ocean. The temperature was around 70F. I had an easy commute in to work. The employee parking shuttle bus driver waited for me to walk over and board instead of making me wait 15 minutes for the next one. I had only one Jeppeson update to do. There weren’t any nasty memoes from the chief pilot. No one was running their noisy APU, so I did the pre-flight exterior inspection. For once, I didn’t find any discrepencies. The only way it could have been better is if I started the day fishing instead of waiting until I got off work to go fishing. After the pre-flight, I was standing next to the plane chatting with a friend. He and I used to tow banners together. As we were talking, a big cloud of smoke rolled across the airfield. It was tire smoke but too much for a normal landing. Then a gate agent motioned for me to come up the jetway because the boarding passengers were concerned about the smell. I gave them an explanation that worked. After I hung up the PA, my helper-pilot told me that the main runway was shut down because of a disabled aircraft. We made a bet on which airline it was. It turned out to be my turn to buy lunch. Our departure time is at the start of the morning rush of departures, but the morning rush wasn’t happening because many flights were having headaches trying to get their weight down so they could use the short runway. We launched from the short runway in good time. The trip up to the Northeast was pleasant. We called the field insight from 60 miles out. Our turn time was good. We were ready to board when my intuition made the other pilot call clearance. Sure enough, we had a 2 hour gate hold because of delays due to a disabled airplane at our destination. That was going to cut into my fishing time. After the first hour passed, and the greasy spoon diner they call a restaurant had started serving lunch, I sauntered up to the gate area to get a bite to eat. I was surrounded by anxious passengers wanting more information. The gate agent had been instructed not to say anything. A certain irritable streak deep inside was starting to wiggle around because, unlike management, I know how to run an airline. I picked up the PA and gave the folks the information they craved. Just as my speech was winding down, the gate agent wispered to me that our gear-up time had been moved up. I keyed the PA again and told everyone that we had 20 minutes to be in the air or else ATC would send us to the end of the list. Those people must have liked my speech. They ran down the jetway. They stuffed bags in the overheads with super-human strength. I think I saw them shove the last standing passenger into a seat. We set a record for boarding a full plane. They must have liked my speech. Number 2 engine was lit and spooling up as we ran the runway. We made it into the air with less than a minute left of our edict. Maybe I should use that speech more often. The flight southbound was just as nice. ATC was giving vectors and speed restrictions to other traffic in order to get the required in-trail spacing, but they left us alone. All was going well. Too well. On the arrival, 30 miles from the airport, we were given holding instructions. It caught us by surprise. I had to fly the first orbit by hand until my helper-pilot programmed the hold into the FMS. Then he called the tower for more information. He turned to me and said, "What are the odds?". The main runway was still shutdown because it still had an airplane on it with 8 blown tires. The second runway was now shutdown because it also had an airplane on it with blown tires. What are the odds? The second plane was a DC-3. I know that the last DC-3 towbar left the airport a long time ago. The first disabled plane was still on it’s axles. The airport wouldn’t be open anytime soon. We decided that holding wouldn’t change anything, so we diverted to another airport. I never did get to go fishing that day. It was a beautiful day for fishing and I was stuck at the airport. What are the odds? D.

Two blown tire incidents in one days.  I would guess the tire needed more brakes for some reason in each case. You said it was the home base and the base is notorious for the effect of sudden brakage. And fishing at your homebase is a passtime so maybe it has to do with water near the end of the runway. I remember Boston for this problem in the news papers. Is Boston your base?? I remember the Massacheustts solution for the Boston runway problem was to keep the old one and add a second without water as the overrun. Except the new one solved the noise polution problem only and is a poor use for the new North End. Somebody had Mayor White’s old crowd mad at them way back.

Response:

It was a clear calm morning. The sun was just coming up over the ocean. The temperature was around 70F. I had an easy commute in to work. The employee parking shuttle bus driver waited for me to walk over and board instead of making me wait 15 minutes for the next one. I had only one Jeppeson update to do. There weren’t any nasty memoes from the chief pilot. No one was running their noisy APU, so I did the pre-flight exterior inspection. For once, I didn’t find any discrepencies. The only way it could have been better is if I started the day fishing instead of waiting until I got off work to go fishing. After the pre-flight, I was standing next to the plane chatting with a friend. He and I used to tow banners together. As we were talking, a big cloud of smoke rolled across the airfield. It was tire smoke but too much for a normal landing. Then a gate agent motioned for me to come up the jetway because the boarding passengers were concerned about the smell. I gave them an explanation that worked. After I hung up the PA, my helper-pilot told me that the main runway was shut down because of a disabled aircraft. We made a bet on which airline it was. It turned out to be my turn to buy lunch. Our departure time is at the start of the morning rush of departures, but the morning rush wasn’t happening because many flights were having headaches trying to get their weight down so they could use the short runway. We launched from the short runway in good time. The trip up to the Northeast was pleasant. We called the field insight from 60 miles out. Our turn time was good. We were ready to board when my intuition made the other pilot call clearance. Sure enough, we had a 2 hour gate hold because of delays due to a disabled airplane at our destination. That was going to cut into my fishing time. After the first hour passed, and the greasy spoon diner they call a restaurant had started serving lunch, I sauntered up to the gate area to get a bite to eat. I was surrounded by anxious passengers wanting more information. The gate agent had been instructed not to say anything. A certain irritable streak deep inside was starting to wiggle around because, unlike management, I know how to run an airline. I picked up the PA and gave the folks the information they craved. Just as my speech was winding down, the gate agent wispered to me that our gear-up time had been moved up. I keyed the PA again and told everyone that we had 20 minutes to be in the air or else ATC would send us to the end of the list. Those people must have liked my speech. They ran down the jetway. They stuffed bags in the overheads with super-human strength. I think I saw them shove the last standing passenger into a seat. We set a record for boarding a full plane. They must have liked my speech. Number 2 engine was lit and spooling up as we ran the runway. We made it into the air with less than a minute left of our edict. Maybe I should use that speech more often. The flight southbound was just as nice. ATC was giving vectors and speed restrictions to other traffic in order to get the required in-trail spacing, but they left us alone. All was going well. Too well. On the arrival, 30 miles from the airport, we were given holding instructions. It caught us by surprise. I had to fly the first orbit by hand until my helper-pilot programmed the hold into the FMS. Then he called the tower for more information. He turned to me and said, "What are the odds?". The main runway was still shutdown because it still had an airplane on it with 8 blown tires. The second runway was now shutdown because it also had an airplane on it with blown tires. What are the odds? The second plane was a DC-3. I know that the last DC-3 towbar left the airport a long time ago. The first disabled plane was still on it’s axles. The airport wouldn’t be open anytime soon. We decided that holding wouldn’t change anything, so we diverted to another airport. I never did get to go fishing that day. It was a beautiful day for fishing and I was stuck at the airport. What are the odds? D.

Response:

Question:

The village idiot has shown uncharacteristic wisdom and good sense in avoiding me, as evidenced by actually being in Ennis during the first Western ‘Clave and not daring to show his face. Outrageous fantasies like you describe above, should he decide to believe them, would not work out well in reality. Hey Tough Guy, you’re sure a BAD ass! You want to take on a guy with what, twenty years on you? I’m sure that you strutted around with this macho, hard guy attitude at the local bars in Gardiner.

My experience has always been that those who go around bragging about how tough they are, aren’t.      - Ken

Response:

…  I honestly believe it would be water under the bridge if you’d just act like a regular person, show up, meet some people and hang out.  OK, maybe a couple that you have really pissed will need some sort of apology first, … The village idiot has shown uncharacteristic wisdom and good sense in avoiding me, as evidenced by actually being in Ennis during the first Western ‘Clave and not daring to show his face. Outrageous fantasies like you describe above, should he decide to believe them, would not work out well in reality.

You are such a sssstud.  I wanna be just like you when I’m an old geezer with a chip on my shoulder.      - Ken

Response:

I would not hesitate to call this to the attention of the appropriate authorities.

Your finest hour, I’d imagine. — Charlie…

Response:

Really Ken?  I would say that most anyone of good character and wisdom would avoid *you* too, but there are some folk here that seem to like or at least tolerate you, and I believe they are of decent character and wise beyond belief–so go figure this one. I will be at the Penn’s ‘Clave, and will at least attempt to fish with George/you, should y’all show.  Is this an unwise move on my part?  The occasion will certainly give you an opportunity to give George and me the verbal thrashing that we so richly deserve, as I know, "in reality", you are not suggesting that you might become physical with another ROFFian.

Hi Op,  You appear to have a great mellon on your shoulders.  If you ever show up in Montana, drop me an email and I would be happy to show you some of my *new* home waters. Thanks for trying to keep Ken honest. Paul — remove all x’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

Response:

…  I honestly believe it would be water under the bridge if you’d just act like a regular person, show up, meet some people and hang out.  OK, maybe a couple that you have really pissed will need some sort of apology first, …

The village idiot has shown uncharacteristic wisdom and good sense in avoiding me, as evidenced by actually being in Ennis during the first Western ‘Clave and not daring to show his face. Outrageous fantasies like you describe above, should he decide to believe them, would not work out well in reality. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

okay

–waldo, ticket concessionaire….. have coat rack, will travel.

Response:

okay –waldo, ticket concessionaire….. have coat rack, will travel.

I predict bad weather. — Charlie…

Response:

okay –waldo, ticket concessionaire….. have coat rack, will travel. I predict bad weather.

Exactly.

Response:

The village idiot has shown uncharacteristic wisdom and good sense in avoiding me, as evidenced by actually being in Ennis during the first Western ‘Clave and not daring to show his face. Outrageous fantasies like you describe above, should he decide to believe them, would not work out well in reality. — Ken Fortenberry

Really Ken?  I would say that most anyone of good character and wisdom would avoid *you* too, but there are some folk here that seem to like or at least tolerate you, and I believe they are of decent character and wise beyond belief–so go figure this one. I will be at the Penn’s ‘Clave, and will at least attempt to fish with George/you, should y’all show.  Is this an unwise move on my part?  The occasion will certainly give you an opportunity to give George and me the verbal thrashing that we so richly deserve, as I know, "in reality", you are not suggesting that you might become physical with another ROFFian. Op  –reluctant pacifist–

Response:

Op writes: I will be at the Penn’s ‘Clave, and will at least attempt to fish with George/you, should y’all show.

Uh, Op, George won’t be at the Penns Clave.  Three things will keep him from showing up:  1.  A yellow stripe down his back.  2.  He doesn’t have a pilot’s license. 3. A yellow stripe down his back. But, I hope to fish with ya.  <g Dave

Response:

… I will be at the Penn’s ‘Clave, and will at least attempt to fish with George/you, should y’all show.  Is this an unwise move on my part? …

George won’t show and I’m pretty picky about who I fish with. I would decline to fish with any "sportsman" who’s nigh on a poacher and who boasts of destructive and illegal joy rides in our National Forests. An unwise move would be carrying an illegal concealed weapon. I would not hesitate to call this to the attention of the appropriate authorities. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

HI op,  send me an e-mail. I need your return e-mail address. Tried to send you something, but it just bounces. TL MC

Response:

The village idiot has shown uncharacteristic wisdom and good sense in avoiding me, as evidenced by actually being in Ennis during the first Western ‘Clave and not daring to show his face. Outrageous fantasies like you describe above, should he decide to believe them, would not work out well in reality.

Hey Tough Guy, you’re sure a BAD ass! You want to take on a guy with what, twenty years on you? I’m sure that you strutted around with this macho, hard guy attitude at the local bars in Gardiner. Willi

Response:

What a nice thing to say Willi. Enjoying your posts. George

     yes, george, most of us share that feeling.  and do you know why absolutely no one will respond to your posts in a similar fashion?  because when you had the opportunity to describe your experience with the same sort of improving fisherman, you used it as the means to drop names, describe your own excellence, and falsely attribute an hyperegotistical statement to your adoring sheep:  "…even an icon like you, george (or words to that effect)…"      until you accept the fact that the difference between you and folks like willi is not measured by absolute talent or experience, but how you relate to your fellow man, you will never be accepted among gentlemen in the fashion you so deeply desire. awh

Response:

Got back from a great trip to The Juan, again admirably hosted by Bruce. Some good fishing, decent weather and great companionship.

[ Nice compliments from a true fisher-gentlemen snipped...] I also had a great time at the Juan. It’s one thing to read books and watch videos. As a novice, you can learn a great deal by experimenting on your own. It’s the *real* thing to watch guys like Willi, Charlie, Bruce, Warren, et al, work a piece of water. If your within eyesight or earshot of them, you can’t help but improve, fishing and otherwise. It has been often said that "Those that can, do. Those that can’t, teach." These fellows prove that, for the friends of the gifted, doing and teaching are the same thing. Danl

Response:

     yes, george, most of us share that feeling.  and do you know why absolutely no one will respond to your posts in a similar fashion?  because when you had the opportunity to describe your experience with the same sort of improving fisherman, you used it as the means to drop names, describe your own excellence, and falsely attribute an hyperegotistical statement to your adoring sheep:  "…even an icon like you, george (or words to that effect)…"      until you accept the fact that the difference between you and folks like willi is not measured by absolute talent or experience, but how you relate to your fellow man, you will never be accepted among gentlemen in the fashion you so deeply desire. awh

I’m sure that is the way it seems to you Wayne, but rest assured you should not take me as seriously as you do.  I’m just the guy across the river that keeps stumbling on his untied tennis shoes.  Nothing more, nothing less. geg

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     yes, george, most of us share that feeling.  and do you know why absolutely no one will respond to your posts in a similar fashion?  because when you had the opportunity to describe your experience with the same sort of improving fisherman, you used it as the means to drop names, describe your own excellence, and falsely attribute an hyperegotistical statement to your adoring sheep:  "…even an icon like you, george (or words to that effect)…"     until you accept the fact that the difference between you and folks like willi is not measured by absolute talent or experience, but how you relate to your fellow man, you will never be accepted among gentlemen in the fashion you so deeply desire. awh I’m sure that is the way it seems to you Wayne, but rest assured you should not take me as seriously as you do.  I’m just the guy across the river that keeps stumbling on his untied tennis shoes.  Nothing more, nothing less. geg

…well, why doesn’t that "guy" post here more often.  sounds like someone i could appreciate and identify with…  why don’t you come to penns in may and stumble about with the rest of us? jeff

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     yes, george, most of us share that feeling.  and do you know why absolutely no one will respond to your posts in a similar fashion?  because when you had the opportunity to describe your experience with the same sort of improving fisherman, you used it as the means to drop names, describe your own excellence, and falsely attribute an hyperegotistical statement to your adoring sheep:  "…even an icon like you, george (or words to that effect)…"     until you accept the fact that the difference between you and folks like willi is not measured by absolute talent or experience, but how you relate to your fellow man, you will never be accepted among gentlemen in the fashion you so deeply desire. awh I’m sure that is the way it seems to you Wayne, but rest assured you should not take me as seriously as you do.  I’m just the guy across the river that keeps stumbling on his untied tennis shoes.  Nothing more, nothing less. geg …well, why doesn’t that "guy" post here more often.  sounds like someone i could appreciate and identify with…  why don’t you come to penns in may and stumble about with the rest of us? jeff

okay

Response:

…..I’m just the guy across the river that keeps stumbling on his untied

tennis shoes….. Yes, well, that’s because you always have at least one foot in your mouth. The mouth is, of course, firmly attached to your head, and we all know where that lives.  No one could possibly walk thus contorted, even with velcro closures. Then again, you’re an idiot. Wolfgang

Response:

… why don’t you come to penns in may … okay

Yeah, that would be … interesting. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I’m just the guy across the river that keeps stumbling on his untied tennis shoes.  Nothing more, nothing less. geg

You misspelled "gag" BTW. –Steve

Response:

I’m sure that is the way it seems to you Wayne, but rest assured you should not take me as seriously as you do.  I’m just the guy across the river that keeps stumbling on his untied tennis shoes.  Nothing more, nothing less. …well, why doesn’t that "guy" post here more often.  sounds like someone i could appreciate and identify with…  why don’t you come to penns in may and stumble about with the rest of us? okay

You know what the funny thing is George?  As much as you appear to be a buffoon, as much as you irritate people, as much as you are downright despised by a few, I honestly believe it would be water under the bridge if you’d just act like a regular person, show up, meet some people and hang out.  OK, maybe a couple that you have really pissed will need some sort of apology first, but on the whole this is an incredible group of gentlemen that will accept people for what they are and be genuinely nice to anyone that is at least sincere, and approachable, and who possesses an ego no larger than, say, the state in which they are fishing.  Considering how much people seem to dislike you, don’t you find it remarkable how many invitations you get to claves?  People here are interested in camaraderie and sharing, not self-aggrandizement.  I think you’d be surprised what could change. I do not hate you.  You’ve insulted me personally, in counterattack to be fair, but nothing that I ever took seriously.  The times you have really offended me were times when you were not speaking directly to me, when you tried to make yourself more important than the things we hold dear, such as a clave, or a friendship, or the memory of a person.

Response:

It has been often said that "Those that can, do. Those that can’t, teach." These fellows prove that, for the friends of the gifted, doing and teaching are the same thing.

Yeah man.

Response:

Got back from a great trip to The Juan, again admirably hosted by Bruce. Some good fishing, decent weather and great companionship. However, the thing that gave me the most pleasure was to see the growth in fly fishing skills of a couple of the participants. I’ve been fishing with most of these guys for about a year and a half. I was very impressed by the progress made by a couple of the guys. They started with little idea where to cast the fly, an inability to put the fly where they wanted, no clue as to what fly to choose and forget about presentation. (No offense meant by this) They have progressed to the point that they were able to catch fussy fish on a large river in difficult, murky water conditions. They were able to choose appropriate flies (one of them even gave me a couple flies that were effective for me the next day on several very tough fish), find appropriate spots and use appropriate techniques that resulted in some nice fish. Great to see! Willi

Response:

What a nice thing to say Willi. Enjoying your posts. George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Got back from a great trip to The Juan, again admirably hosted by Bruce. Some good fishing, decent weather and great companionship. However, the thing that gave me the most pleasure was to see the growth in fly fishing skills of a couple of the participants. I’ve been fishing with most of these guys for about a year and a half. I was very impressed by the progress made by a couple of the guys. They started with little idea where to cast the fly, an inability to put the fly where they wanted, no clue as to what fly to choose and forget about presentation. (No offense meant by this) They have progressed to the point that they were able to catch fussy fish on a large river in difficult, murky water conditions. They were able to choose appropriate flies (one of them even gave me a couple flies that were effective for me the next day on several very tough fish), find appropriate spots and use appropriate techniques that resulted in some nice fish. Great to see! Willi

Response:

Question:

I view newsgroups first as a source of volunteer information, and second as a source of chit chat and entertainment.  Some view it just the opposite, and that’s OK with me.  Flaming is part of the entertainment sometimes.  But lately I’ve had negative thoughts about people, personally, based on what they post here, and that has never happened to me before.  Too much bandwidth wasted trying to make other people seem stupid.  I don’t even have enough time right now for all the stuff I love in life, let alone something that’s kind of a bummer.  So… time to take a break for awhile. But… I thought it might be a good chance to lay out some good vibes and thanks.  I’ve learned a lot about things on topic and off.  Thanks to all the volunteer informers and educators!  Keep it up.  There are people listening and lurking even if you don’t know, and it’s appreciated.  I’ve also enjoyed hearing other wide-ranging *objective* points of view – again, on topic and off.  I *definitely* look forward to meeting the friends I made at the claves again sometime and fishing or just bullshitting.  Special thanks to Walt, Warren, and Dave for organizing the claves – I loved ‘em!  I hope it’s not too early to wish everyone happy holidays – hope you get your favorite fly fishing equipment for Xmas! obroff:  May the man who will help our sport the most win the US election (er.. or at least may the worst man lose.)  And if you can’t fish, may your winter reading and tying hold you over.  And may your next fish take you into your backing… or at least give you a few good vibes! Tight lines, JeffC1.474×10**3

Response:

Hasn’t anyone told you that now you’ve claved, you can’t leave.  It’s in the fine print. Peter

____  You sure could have fooled me Pete.  LOL! — George G. Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods http://www.gink.com/ http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

Sorry to see ya go Jeff but I understand. Thanks for your help and opinions offered in the past. Tight lines. Natty Before you buy.

Response:

Hasn’t anyone told you that now you’ve claved, you can’t leave.  It’s in the fine print. Peter ____  You sure could have fooled me Pete.  LOL!

How would you know? You’ve never worked up the cajones to attend a conclave. ps: That lipstick on your exhaust pipe wasn’t from a woman.

Response:

So… time to take a break for awhile. You can take the man out of roff…but it is impossible to take roff out of the man. I wish I had thought of that!   ___  Good to have you around needling the junk yard dogs TBone.

The only junk yard dogs ’round here are those hanging out in your crazed mind.

Response:

ps: That lipstick on your exhaust pipe wasn’t from a woman.

And it probably included huge gobs of dried-up Skoal. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Jeff said he’d take a break "for awhile". He’ll be back i’m sure.  In the meantime I’ve been reading lots of good fishing stuff on ROFF lately. Jeff, keep me posted when you’re visiting NM. bruce h PS:  Doc, Around here we spell it COJONES. Before you buy.

Response:

Maybe they *are* getting a grip. Why should they continue to tune into this newsgroup if it’s not satisfying their reasons for reading it?

No reason at all, Steve, other than the fact that they have a lot of friends here who’d like to hear from them from time to time. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Let’s just get a grip, OK? Jeff? Mike Conner? Vern? Warren? Deanbot? Where are you? Maybe they *are* getting a grip. Why should they continue to tune into this newsgroup if it’s not satisfying their reasons for reading it? –Steve

BINGO!!! Before you buy.

Response:

So… time to take a break for awhile.

You can take the man out of roff…but it is impossible to take roff out of the man. Your pal, — Halfordian Golfer It is impossible to catch and release a wild trout. A cash flow runs through it.

Response:

Hasn’t anyone told you that now you’ve claved, you can’t leave.  It’s in the fine print. Peter

Response:

So… time to take a break for awhile. You can take the man out of roff…but it is impossible to take roff out of the man.

I wish I had thought of that!   ___  Good to have you around needling the junk yard dogs TBone. — George G. Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods http://www.gink.com/

Response:

Walt’s right Jeff ol’ boy, you live through a lot worse in the beginning! — Op         –Absence and death are the same–only that in death there is no suffering.         –Walter S. Landor

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I view newsgroups first as a source of volunteer information, and second as a source of chit chat and entertainment.  Some view it just the opposite, and that’s OK with me.  Flaming is part of the entertainment sometimes.  But lately I’ve had negative thoughts about people, personally, based on what they post here, and that has never happened to me before.  Too much bandwidth wasted trying to make other people seem stupid.  I don’t even have enough time right now for all the stuff I love in life, let alone something that’s kind of a bummer.  So… time to take a break for awhile. But… I thought it might be a good chance to lay out some good vibes and thanks.  I’ve learned a lot about things on topic and off.  Thanks to all the volunteer informers and educators!  Keep it up.  There are people listening and lurking even if you don’t know, and it’s appreciated.  I’ve also enjoyed hearing other wide-ranging *objective* points of view – again, on topic and off.  I *definitely* look forward to meeting the friends I made at the claves again sometime and fishing or just bullshitting.  Special thanks to Walt, Warren, and Dave for organizing the claves – I loved ‘em!  I hope it’s not too early to wish everyone happy holidays – hope you get your favorite fly fishing equipment for Xmas! obroff:  May the man who will help our sport the most win the US election (er.. or at least may the worst man lose.)  And if you can’t fish, may your winter reading and tying hold you over.  And may your next fish take you into your backing… or at least give you a few good vibes! Tight lines, JeffC1.474×10**3 ahhhhhh bullshit! if you bug out, after having the cojones to show up at spring as your accelerating face-first towards that ominous grey granite boulder, i wish you the time to think… "ahwwwwwww..sheeeeeeettttt, i’m wearin’ a richardsons!" <g tl, walt

Response:

Come back and see us soon Jeff. Darin

Response:

Come back and see us soon Jeff. Darin

What? Did Jeff sign out of ROFF? I just can’t believe you guys. The last person I’d have expected to be thin skinned was JeffC, What a bunch of pussy sissy boys! Can’t stand to have certain combinations of characters displayed on computer sceens. Yuck! Let’s just get a grip, OK? Jeff? Mike Conner? Vern? Warren? Deanbot? Where are you? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Come back and see us soon Jeff. Darin What? Did Jeff sign out of ROFF? Let’s just get a grip, OK? Jeff? Mike Conner? Vern? Warren? Deanbot? Where are you?

I second the sentiment. Willi

Response:

Jeff, that library downtown is full of books I’ll never read…… john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I view newsgroups first as a source of volunteer information, and second as a source of chit chat and entertainment.  Some view it just the opposite, and that’s OK with me.  Flaming is part of the entertainment sometimes.  But lately I’ve had negative thoughts about people, personally, based on what they post here, and that has never happened to me before.  Too much bandwidth wasted trying to make other people seem stupid.  I don’t even have enough time right now for all the stuff I love in life, let alone something that’s kind of a bummer.  So… time to take a break for awhile. But… I thought it might be a good chance to lay out some good vibes and thanks.  I’ve learned a lot about things on topic and off.  Thanks to all the volunteer informers and educators!  Keep it up.  There are people listening and lurking even if you don’t know, and it’s appreciated.  I’ve also enjoyed hearing other wide-ranging *objective* points of view – again, on topic and off.  I *definitely* look forward to meeting the friends I made at the claves again sometime and fishing or just bullshitting.  Special thanks to Walt, Warren, and Dave for organizing the claves – I loved ‘em!  I hope it’s not too early to wish everyone happy holidays – hope you get your favorite fly fishing equipment for Xmas! obroff:  May the man who will help our sport the most win the US election (er.. or at least may the worst man lose.)  And if you can’t fish, may your winter reading and tying hold you over.  And may your next fish take you into your backing… or at least give you a few good vibes! Tight lines, JeffC1.474×10**3

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Let’s just get a grip, OK? Jeff? Mike Conner? Vern? Warren? Deanbot? Where are you?

Maybe they *are* getting a grip. Why should they continue to tune into this newsgroup if it’s not satisfying their reasons for reading it? –Steve

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I view newsgroups first as a source of volunteer information, and second as a source of chit chat and entertainment.  Some view it just the opposite, and that’s OK with me.  Flaming is part of the entertainment sometimes.  But lately I’ve had negative thoughts about people, personally, based on what they post here, and that has never happened to me before.  Too much bandwidth wasted trying to make other people seem stupid.  I don’t even have enough time right now for all the stuff I love in life, let alone something that’s kind of a bummer.  So… time to take a break for awhile. But… I thought it might be a good chance to lay out some good vibes and thanks.  I’ve learned a lot about things on topic and off.  Thanks to all the volunteer informers and educators!  Keep it up.  There are people listening and lurking even if you don’t know, and it’s appreciated.  I’ve also enjoyed hearing other wide-ranging *objective* points of view – again, on topic and off.  I *definitely* look forward to meeting the friends I made at the claves again sometime and fishing or just bullshitting.  Special thanks to Walt, Warren, and Dave for organizing the claves – I loved ‘em!  I hope it’s not too early to wish everyone happy holidays – hope you get your favorite fly fishing equipment for Xmas! obroff:  May the man who will help our sport the most win the US election (er.. or at least may the worst man lose.)  And if you can’t fish, may your winter reading and tying hold you over.  And may your next fish take you into your backing… or at least give you a few good vibes! Tight lines, JeffC1.474×10**3

ahhhhhh bullshit! if you bug out, after having the cojones to show up at spring accelerating face-first towards that ominous grey granite boulder, i wish you the time to think… "ahwwwwwww..sheeeeeeettttt, i’m wearin’ a richardsons!" <g tl, walt

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Question:

Tell Charlie and the others to be more respectful in the future and you will see all this nonsense disappear from this point on.

Just when you thought they couldn’t get funnier… — Charlie…

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____  I can take ass chewing when its justified, but you like everyone else don’t do your homework.  Why don’t you go back to the beginning and realize that I don’t take anyone on unless they attack me unjustly. That has been the case every time.  Check the treads Tom. If what you say about Wayne is true, then I’ve been duped by him and now you. Frankly, your attack on me is also off base.  Roff has turned into a vile place and has been needing a moderator for several years now.  I can assure you, starting from scratch, I’d be the last one a moderator would need to correct. If there is correcting to do, I’d say you’re off base on this one.  If you go back and TAKE INVENTORY my friend, you will see that it was Wayne that started writing dribble to me when in fact up to that point I never did that and if so in the past, it was so minor as to be just humorous and friendly barbs about lawyers.   Go back and check Tom.  If you dare.  I never attacked Wayne because he never provoked me until the posts prior to my challenge on what possibly could cause a reasonable man to say the things he said.  Consider this. If anyone in the future, from this POINT on . . . smart mouths me, which I won’t instigate, you take note of it pal.  I don’t call you Brownie, I don’t demean your name, I don’t call you any kind of names and I’ve always treated you with respect.  But when you come charging at me fighting other people’s battles which THEY start, then I say you’re sticking your nose where it doesn’t belong and you do not know the treads or those who start them. So, politely leave me alone regarding retorts.  I’m not here to impress you or to talk ill of you.  I would do that in private.  So you and the other feeding sharks who have no idea what the hell you’re doing, should do your home work before you. Again, from this point on, read the posts Tom before you get on my case.  I’m the the bad guy here.  Tell Charlie and the others to be more respectful in the future and you will see all this nonsense disappear from this point on. Let’s see, who throws the first stone after you Tom. I promise, it is never me. Get back to fly fishing everyone and clean up your acts before you start trying to correct me.  And don’t dig up old stuff out of context.  That also doesn’t fly anymore as it is self serving and those NEVER show the instigators I have challenged. Lately, do me a favor Tom.  Do everyone here a favor.  If EVER anyone demeans anyone in the slightest way, why don’t you point that out immediately in the future?   You be a test moderator and let’s see who gets to 10 points first. Think about it. Again, I’m not the bad guy here. Okay? — George G. Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods http://www.gink.com/ http://www.gink.com/chat

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Again, from this point on, read the posts Tom before you get on my case.  I’m the the bad guy here.   Again, I’m not the bad guy here. Okay?

so which is it?  bad or not bad? <G cb

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Question:

I am planning a trip to the Escalante/ Otter creek reservoir area  next month. anyone know of a good shop and/or guide for Fly fishing that area. thanks , Glenn T.

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Yeah, try this guy. Fished with him at Lees Ferry and he will put you on fish. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am planning a trip to the Escalante/ Otter creek reservoir area  next month. anyone know of a good shop and/or guide for Fly fishing that area. thanks , Glenn T.

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Question:

_______  The wading life vest is a good idea anymore the older you get. Of course its a good idea no matter how old you are.  The Madison has slick rounded stones in it and falling is easy enough and no matter how deep the water of any river you’re in, its more difficult to get back up on your feet. The most dangerous thing anyone can do when they fall and start floating down stream is holding onto their fly rod and then exhausting themselves with energy they could have spent more wisely getting back to shore. Let the fly rod go! — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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I agree 1000%  I just bought a Stearns vest with the flotation built in.  It doesn’t have some of the bells and whistles, e.g., Supplex, net loop, but I value the safety feature above everything else. Jim Benenson Los Alamos NM’ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – _______  The wading life vest is a good idea anymore the older you get. Of course its a good idea no matter how old you are.  The Madison has slick rounded stones in it and falling is easy enough and no matter how deep the water of any river you’re in, its more difficult to get back up on your feet. The most dangerous thing anyone can do when they fall and start floating down stream is holding onto their fly rod and then exhausting themselves with energy they could have spent more wisely getting back to shore. Let the fly rod go! — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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The most dangerous thing anyone can do when they fall and start floating down stream is holding onto their fly rod and then exhausting themselves with energy they could have spent more wisely getting back to shore.

The next most dangerous thing you can do when fishing is to let safety equipment substitute for common sense. A fly vest with flotation built in is a good idea; wearing one so you can wade deep, swift water that you normally wouldn’t wade is a very bad idea. (I know you weren’t suggesting that, George. Just thought it needed mentioning.) — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

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Question:

        Despite five years of closure in the commercial net fishery in Newfoundland, initial returns to most rivers have been very dissapointing. Fishway counts are running at 33% of last years on average and fishing generally poor on the island.  Water levels are also falling and temperatures rising which does not bode well either.  Explanations abound with candidates ranging from ‘mother nature’ her/himself (cold ocean temperatures, etc.) to more usual ‘whipping creatures’ such as seals, first nation fisheries and/or legitimate commercial fishers pursuing other species.         At the same time, salmon fishing is beginning to become more epxensive.  The Gander River in central Newfoundland has just institute a special $20 fee to fish it alone (with another $20 if you wish to partake of a potential Fall fishery for one month).  Other rivers are rumoured to follow suit.  I might not mind if there were a few fish!!  Recent trip to the Gander River suggested to me that there are fewer fish in the river now than when the commercial fishery were operating.  Any ideas as to what is going on?  ’hostile marine conditions just doesn’t seem to cut it having heard virutally every fishery downturn around here attriubted to it for the last five years.  Larry Felt, St. John’s, Newfoundland

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need some help here.  My 9 yr old son wants to learn to fly fish and<edit go with me when I’m out.  <edit <<<AL BT wrote Take a good look at the rod. Your rod is probably an 8 or 9 foot rod. You might consider a shorter rod for your son like a 7 or 7 1/2 foot. Your local fly shop should be able to help. Go there and try a few rods and get a couple of pointers from a resident expert. It could be time well spent. Good luck & … — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Catalog,Tips & Tricks, Fishing Reports, & NeverSink at: http://www.btsflyfishing.com

Heed Al’s Advice he always has good insightful obsevations and ideas. I have an 8 year old who also loves to fish. He’s been fishing since he was 3 with spincasting gear. This year I showed him how to roll cast and he did well. He even could false cast about 15 feet.  Start off slow, he will pick it up just like riding a bike, plaing baseball and all the other great things boys do.  Most of us learned by roll casting first so maybe he needs to start there.  Sounds like you have a great kid.  There should be more Dads like us. If Ido say so myself! Tight Lines:

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nymphing rod gentlemen.  Good work Tim. Mr. G. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Take a good look at the rod. Your rod is probably an 8 or 9 foot rod. You might consider a shorter rod for your son like a 7 or 7 1/2 foot. I disagree…he’ll only have to work harder to get the same distance… The longer rod will give him a lot of advantages in the ‘long’ run and should not be appreciably more heavy or unwieldy. In fact the longer rod might just keeping him from hooking his eyeball… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Mr. G. Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin:          vcard fn:             Mr. G. n:              ;Mr. G. org:            Gehrke’s Fly Fishing Products title:          President note:           Do something, even if it’s right x-mozilla-cpt:  ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE end:            vcard

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Take a good look at the rod. Your rod is probably an 8 or 9 foot rod. You might consider a shorter rod for your son like a 7 or 7 1/2 foot.

I disagree…he’ll only have to work harder to get the same distance… The longer rod will give him a lot of advantages in the ‘long’ run and should not be appreciably more heavy or unwieldy. In fact the longer rod might just keeping him from hooking his eyeball… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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I need some help here.  My 9 yr old son wants to learn to fly fish and go with me when I’m out.  I myself have just finished a course and am beginning to feel comfortable casting. Not to be unkind but if, as you say, you are only now getting comfortable with casting, perhaps you need to get whoever taught you to work with your son. There is a big difference between doing and teaching, and it is another step yet to be able to diagnose a casting stroke and adjust it to be more effective within the capabilities and limits of any individual.

He’s right, you’ll BOTH learn faster if you go for lessons together.  It really helps a learner to see an instructor working with someone else, and he’ll be able to spot if the error recurs on the water – and bring the lesson back to mind. Next, video each other casting.  It’s amazing how many of your own faults you’ll see and rectify if you watch a video.  You don’t have to let the rest of the family see the result. Then compete with each other – on equal terms (sort of, you put up the prizes, he wins most of ‘em; in family terms this IS equal).  Don’t compete for distance, it wouldn’t be fair and it’s of little use in any case. Compete for accuracy, you are going ‘target casting’  Start with a hula-hoop

Question:

Recently returned from a guided tour with Dennis of Trout Creek Flies. Had a great time. Caught several 20 inchers and a total of 50+fish. I highly recommend this guide as he knows all the hot spots in the river. Lunch was great too!! larry and darlene

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Recently returned from a guided tour with Dennis of Trout Creek Flies. Had a great time. Caught several 20 inchers and a total of 50+fish. I highly recommend this guide as he knows all the hot spots in the river. Lunch was great too!! larry and darlene How much does Dennis charge for a guide trip? Mark    

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Path: news.teleport.com!psgrain!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!library.erc.clarkson.ed u!ub!csn!news.usafa.af.mil!dfyc16.usafa.af.mil!GLIVINSKIDK%DFYC Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Organization: United States Air Force Academy Lines: 11 Distribution: USA NNTP-Posting-Host: dfyc16.usafa.af.mil Summary: big fish Keywords: trout,fly fishing Recently returned from a guided tour with Dennis of Trout Creek Flies. Had a great time. Caught several 20 inchers and a total of 50+fish. I highly recommend this guide as he knows all the hot spots in the river. Lunch was great too!! larry and darlene How much does Dennis charge for a guide trip? Mark    

I was at the Green for few days around March 20.  I arranged a trip through Dennis (Trout Creek Flies).  It cost $240, but that was the low season price – $275 is the standard price (April 1 – ?).  I stayed at the Flaming Gorge Lodge (arrnged by Denni) and noticed that they had wading guides available as well, and if you are looking to save $, it’s cheaper and the wading was great at that time (very low water).  The fishing was great too… Anthony

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Question:

I am interested in getting information on flyfishing in Patagonia (Argentina and Chile).  It is for my father who is an avid fisherman.  How about camping near rivers, etc. Is it easy to do? Thanks a lot! Marcus

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I am interested in getting information on flyfishing in Patagonia (Argentina and Chile).  It is for my father who is an avid fisherman.  How about camping near rivers, etc. Is it easy to do? Thanks a lot! Marcus

"Flyfishing the World", hosted by John Barrett (a weekly Saturday early morning ESPN show) will be going to Patagonia on their next episode (this Saturday, June 5, 1993).  Stay tuned…. –Ryan

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Question:

1.  Most junk mailers think they’re doing a public service. Don’t be so all-fired-up certain they’re *not* doing a public service. [...] Let’s face facts, nobody goes to the library to research what deoderant to buy, so the decision is largely based on what advertising has had the most effective.

That may be the basis for *your* decision. Personally, I use such sources as the net and Consumer Reports to find out about products. As far as I’m concerned, junk mailers are performing a public DISservice by helping to fill our world with garbage. So, while I applaud your efforts, and I’m concerned at how much crap goes on at public expense, I must remind you that *advertising is not evil*! It is a perfectly valid method of informing the public of one’s goods and services.

You’ve made quite a leap here. The poster was complaining about JUNK MAIL, not about advertising in general. I don’t care if people advertise; I just wish they would do so in a way which doesn’t directly contribute to our pollution problem (i.e. when I "throw away" or disregard a TV commercial, I don’t have to pay the trash man to haul it away, and it takes up no space at the town dump. A case could be made that commercials cause noise pollution, but I won’t be the one to make it here…) JUNK MAIL SUX!! — "Unisys has demonstrated the power of two. That’s their stock price today."        - Scott McNealy on the history of mergers in the computer industry.

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ONE MANS JUNK IS ANOTHER MANS TREASURE! Don’t get personal opinions in the way of having an open mind about BOTH the GOOD AND BAD, that these things can do.  This applies in any and all facets of life.  HAVE an opinion, it is your RESPONSIBILITY, but don’t hamper other peoples as well in trying to keep your own.  Who knows, one day you might change your mind. (Isn’t life great) I personally LIKE *SOME* of the junk mail I have gotten over the years, and have gotten a few good deals in that way.  On the other hand, most of it IS junk, but doesn’t this relationship apply to all of life and not just glossy paper with a postage paid stamp on it. (THINK ABOUT IT) I am sure most people have gotten some kind of use out of some of the JM they have recieved. (PLEASE NO FLAMES, I am just expressing some of my thoughts, good or bad) Christopher Walton

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That may be the basis for *your* decision. Personally, I use such sources as the net and Consumer Reports to find out about products. As far as I’m concerned, junk mailers are performing a public DISservice by helping to fill our world with garbage.

Hey, without junk mail, what would fill the inside back cover of Consumer Reports?  (the Selling It column) —      .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.

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Anyone who’s worked in the advertising field (as I have) knows that the purpose of advertising is to enforce purchasing decisions already made.  Advertising is pretty weak at persuading people to make new buying decisions, great at making people feel glad about the ones they’ve already made.  Junk mail works best with people who enjoy receiving junk mail and who have responded to it in the past.  It has little benefit for those who resist its blandishments.  My feeling is, if you want it, you should be able to affirmatively request it; and if you don’t, it shouldn’t get sent. Bob Jacobson

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Don’t be so all-fired-up certain they’re *not* doing a public service. When you have a family of four to feed (as I do), you appreciate learn- ing about bargains and getting coupons.  

Don’t forget the guy in Washington State that takes pride in being able to heat his house for the winter solely by burning junk mail.  Not exactly pollution free, because it screws up the catalytic converter on wood stoves, but a neat story anyways.

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Don’t be so all-fired-up certain they’re *not* doing a public service. When you have a family of four to feed (as I do), you appreciate learn- ing about bargains and getting coupons.  The rest just goes into the trash (eh, recycling bin!).  My biggest complaint is that it’s the same damn set of coupons every week.  If you don’t happen to like Pizza Hut, too bad.  But once in a while, you’ll get Pollo Loco coupons (which our family *does* like), or other values, which is worth an occasional sort. Pollo Loco? "Crazy Chicken"? Oh, sounds delicious…

It is!  Have you tried it?  Instead of frying the bird, they char-broil it.  There is a whole host of imitators now! Actually, ARA runs a mexican fast food place at the University called "El pollo grande" (the big chicken)…

Probably an imitator.  Like they say, "the sincerest form of flattery …" The average American sees and ignores more than 2000 advertising mes- sages every day.  You oughta be used to it by now. But just because we’re used to something doesn’t mean we have to take it.  "You oughta be used to tax increases by now, so don’t complain"

Slightly different … you can *not* ignore a tax increase!  Trust me, I’ve tried! Let’s face facts, nobody goes to the library to research what deoderant to buy, so the decision is largely based on what advertising has had the most effective.  *It is true* that without advertising, you simply *would not know* about the very existance of the products you buy and use.  The companies that produce those products would go out of busi- ness.  Then you (or me, or others like us) would be out of work. Yeah! If food manufacturers and grocery stores didn’t advertise, we wouldn’t buy any food! (Hey, wait a minute…)

You’re ignoring a fundamental problem, even with grocery stores. Grocery stores litter the landscape like McDonald’s’es.  How is one going to get you to drive an extra ten minutes to come to *their* store if they don’t tell you they exist? Why should they pay tens of kilo-bucks to advertise on TV to the entire area, when for a mere centa-buck or two they can target just the neigh- borhood?  Then add a few money-saving coupons as extra incentive, and viola!  Customers show up! Word about products is accomplished through word of mouth and "Consumer Reports".

Actually, advertisers have a lot of respect for both of these methods. Word-of-Mouth is naturally considered superior, since it’s an objective opinion from a trusted friend, relative, or neighbor. But you’ll go out of business waiting for Word-of-Mouth to get started! Word-of-Mouth, albeit the most sought after and reliable, happens to be the *slowest* form of advertising in existance!  So you put up some billboards, send out some flyers, print up some coupons, and get some people to come in and *try the product*.  Then, if your product is good, these experimenters can get the ol’ Word-of-Mouth Ball rolling. As for "Consumer Reports," I can only say that they fall into the cate- gory of "Caveot Emptor", like everything else.  I have experienced, and have talked to people who have experienced, that very frequently if you are *intimately familiar with the products* that you *disagree* with what they say about them.  If you can’t trust them on things you know about, how can you trust them for things you *don’t* know about? (Altho, I would trust most of their auto surveys.  This information is not based on their employees’ possibly biased or un-informed opinions, but rather on surveys from their readers.) My point stands.  One reason most of us can live the life of luxury that we enjoy is because companies who create products use advertising to get people to buy them.  This creates jobs, which puts money into the hands of people, who can then go out and buy more products! — "We’re sorry, but the reality you have dialed is no longer in service. Please check the value of pi, or see your SysOp for assistance." UUCP: uunet!{hplabs,fiuggi,dhw68k,pyramid}!felix!asylvain

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My point stands.  One reason most of us can live the life of luxury that we enjoy is because companies who create products use advertising to get people to buy them.  This creates jobs, which puts money into the hands of people, who can then go out and buy more products!

All Hail, Conspicuous Waste!  Long live, Throw Away Society! Bill

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1.  *CALL* the DMA’s Mail Preference Service at their secret, unlisted number (212)768-7277 and ask to be listed in their Suppression File. Stay on the phone while the computer operator types your address in. If you leave a message they may just discard it. Call them a month later and ask if you’re listed.  

I called just now – the operator told me that she couldn’t enter my information over the phone – she told me to either write in requesting this or she could send me a form.  I asked for the form; I hope that it gets a better response than the letters did.         -= iain <=-     "a sysadmin kinda guy"

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%8.  When they ask for my name and address at Radio Shack, I tell them %firmly but politely, "For the purpose of your data base, my name is Joe %Tandy and my address is GPO, Fort Worth, Texas."  Radio Shack is one of %the few large junk mailers who can’t be bothered to maintain a suppression %file. I’ve been told one great thing about Tandy but I can’t confirm it.  Can anyone? Tandy/Radio Shack does NOT sell its mailing list and from what I’ve heard they have the largest in the States. %(c) 1991, Cameron Spitzer, San Jose, California Great article, Cameron!  Thank you! Zap — Zap Savage, Savage Research, Inc. "There’s a fine line between fishing and standing on the shore like a fool."         -Steven Wright "It’ll never fly, Orville."         -Wilbur Wright

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