Question:

JeffC apparently wrote… I’ve heard this many times – when it’s drizzling or raining or snowing, the such-and-such really start hatching.  I remember the discussion of drying time for wings, but I’m wondering if there’s really something about a rain, even a light drizzle, that nymphs on the bottom can actually detect, and then be caused to respond to by hatching at that time.

Jeff, I don’t think anyone is saying it is the rain, snow or drizzle is what causes the hatch to kick in.  Think light levels during these periods and you should be able to get up to speed. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

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Got out for a couple of hours today. For the first hour, the fish were taken midges, landed one and stung a couple more. Then heavy cloud cover came out, it started to intermittently rain and the Olives started hatching. I got moved out of the best stretch of water by a couple kids who moved in when they saw me catch a fish. They were flinging bobbers the size of tennis balls over the fish that were rising in less than a foot of water. I told them they would do better in the deep pool under the bridge but….. The stretch that I fished usually doesn’t fish very well until the water levels rise. However, with the cloud cover and the drizzle, the fish had moved into a shallow run to feed on the Olives. Being early in the hatch, it seemed that most fish were taking emergers. I caught a couple fish, then the sun came out and although it continued to drizzle, the Olives and the fish stopped. The sun stayed out for about ten minutes and then it took about another ten before the Olives and the fish started up again. Took one more fish and then it was time to leave. I tried to watch for Olives on the water, both during periods of cloud cover and during the intermittent sunny periods. I could look over a large placid pool and easily see the Olives on the water. Although the hatch wasn’t heavy, during cloudy periods, there were always at least half a dozen  Olives on the pool but none during the sunny periods. It could be that the Olives were flying off more quickly under the sun, but even though the sun was out, it continued to drizzle. Now that Olive "season" has started, I’ll try and make a point of observing this. Willi

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cut ….. Although the  hatch wasn’t heavy, during cloudy periods, there were always at least half a dozen  Olives on the pool but none during the sunny periods.

I’ve noticed this too. I’ve also noticed–especially in the early season leading up to high water and the salmon fly hatch (here in Montana) –that the fishing often turns on and off  semi-instantly, as the sun alternately hides and shows between dark,  early season cloud cover—–even when there is no apparent hatch of any kind. I’ve seen the fishing on the Big Hole go from spectacular to zip in just a few seconds, the minute a bright sun pops out from behind a cloud.  In the early season, I want to see those clam chowder skies…..and no wind.  Maybe that’s what they have in paradise:  60 degrees with fuzzy clouds and a soft rain, and no wind. And lots of trout streams.  On on my way.

Response:

Got out for a couple of hours today. For the first hour, the fish were taken midges, landed one and stung a couple more. Then heavy cloud cover came out, it started to intermittently rain and the Olives started hatching.

How could nymphs "know" that there was rain?  Sun vs. clouds, yes, barometric pressure, maybe, but in riffly water, how about rain?

Response:

How could nymphs "know" that there was rain?  Sun vs. clouds, yes, barometric pressure, maybe, but in riffly water, how about rain?

Impact of rain on surface, chemical change in water, change in surface interaction with "light", stick their heads out and look? GKT

Response:

Got out for a couple of hours today. For the first hour, the fish were taken midges, landed one and stung a couple more. Then heavy cloud cover came out, it started to intermittently rain and the Olives started hatching. How could nymphs "know" that there was rain?  Sun vs. clouds, yes, barometric pressure, maybe, but in riffly water, how about rain?

It was more in response to a comment that we see more Mayflies on the water during cloudy weather because it takes more time for them to dry (seems plausible). Later in my post I talked about not seeing many Mayflies when it was sunny, although it still continued to drizzle. Sun and drizzle at the same time wouldn’t seem to be too conducive to drying. Willi

Response:

It was more in response to a comment that we see more Mayflies on the water during cloudy weather because it takes more time for them to dry (seems plausible). Later in my post I talked about not seeing many Mayflies when it was sunny, although it still continued to drizzle. Sun and drizzle at the same time wouldn’t seem to be too conducive to drying.

I’ve heard this many times – when it’s drizzling or raining or snowing, the such-and-such really start hatching.  I remember the discussion of drying time for wings, but I’m wondering if there’s really something about a rain, even a light drizzle, that nymphs on the bottom can actually detect, and then be caused to respond to by hatching at that time.

Response:

I remember the discussion of drying time for wings, but I’m wondering if there’s really something about a rain, even a light drizzle, that nymphs on the bottom can actually detect, and then be caused to respond to by hatching at that time.

Well, maybe. But it could also be that the duns are on the surface for a longer time in cold drizzley weather, so the hatch seems heavier. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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Question:

I’ll be going to Thompson Falls Montana within the nex t two weeks to pilot a logging helicopter.  We usually work from 5:30 am until about 3:00 PM, depending upon the winds.  This leaves me a lot of time to fly fish. Does anyone know a good place to fish for flies in and around Thompson Falls Montana? Mike

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 Does anyone know a good place to fish for flies in and around Thompson Falls Montana? Mike

just build up a good body sweat and stand in the woods just about anywhere, and you’ll catch plenty of flies.  don’t believe that old honey/vinegar story. <G jeff (lord of the flies)

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I’m heading out to SW Montana and Idaho in hopes of finding things in much better shape than the news has let on.  We’re planning on spending a few days in Yellowstone and then out to Henrys Fork.  I haven’t seen any fishing reports – anyone know how the fishing has been in that area?  Any information is appreciated. Thanks Scott

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fished the missouri today. big browns! it is open we think all is well. there were lots of fires this summer that got in the way. check out the little blackfoot. primo west throat cut throat territory. littleblackfootriverretreat.com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Water temperatures are fine on our side of the divide (high 50’s) and the rivers are NOT closed (except maybe the Missouri, haven’t heard whether they reopened that one or not). We have had cool weather and decent rain. The governor did lift the restrictions but we are still at level IV, which means NO campfires, stoves, etc. except in developed designated campgrounds. With more rain that will get better. Fishing should be fantastic although everybody and his uncle will be out there now that we can fish again (after a month of NO FISH). Have fun. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm 406-626-4022 I’m heading out to SW Montana and Idaho in hopes of finding things in much better shape than the news has let on.  We’re planning on spending a few days in Yellowstone and then out to Henrys Fork.  I haven’t seen any fishing reports – anyone know how the fishing has been in that area?  Any information is appreciated. Thanks Scott Montana opened a lot of closed land today. Some areas..Beaverhead County I believe are still closed. As for the rivers…everyone I have seen, except the Madison, are painfully low and as far as I know closed to fishing.  Even if they are open I would not fish them. We need more water, but more importantly we need cooler water temps. and that is happening…slowly.  The Madison was fishing just great last week.  Water temps. around 58-59 degrees…flow is near normal.  I heard the Beaverhead was looking good but very crowded…also heard the Henry’s Fork is fishing well.

Brian good to hear the water temps have dropped and the rivers ARE open.  A buddy of mne was doing some business out toward Superior so he checked out the river along the frontage road…he said it was boiling!  The cool weather and overcast skies sure help alot. Maybe this weekend I forget about selling trees and shrubs and head for the river!

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Water temperatures are fine on our side of the divide (high 50’s) and the rivers are NOT closed (except maybe the Missouri, haven’t heard whether they reopened that one or not). We have had cool weather and decent rain. The governor did lift the restrictions but we are still at level IV, which means NO campfires, stoves, etc. except in developed designated campgrounds. With more rain that will get better. Fishing should be fantastic although everybody and his uncle will be out there now that we can fish again (after a month of NO FISH). Have fun. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm 406-626-4022

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m heading out to SW Montana and Idaho in hopes of finding things in much better shape than the news has let on.  We’re planning on spending a few days in Yellowstone and then out to Henrys Fork.  I haven’t seen any fishing reports – anyone know how the fishing has been in that area?  Any information is appreciated. Thanks Scott Montana opened a lot of closed land today. Some areas..Beaverhead County I believe are still closed. As for the rivers…everyone I have seen, except the Madison, are painfully low and as far as I know closed to fishing.  Even if they are open I would not fish them. We need more water, but more importantly we need cooler water temps. and that is happening…slowly.  The Madison was fishing just great last week.  Water temps. around 58-59 degrees…flow is near normal.  I heard the Beaverhead was looking good but very crowded…also heard the Henry’s Fork is fishing well.

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I’m heading out to SW Montana and Idaho in hopes of finding things in much better shape than the news has let on.  We’re planning on spending a few days in Yellowstone and then out to Henrys Fork.  I haven’t seen any fishing reports – anyone know how the fishing has been in that area?  Any information is appreciated. Thanks Scott

Montana opened a lot of closed land today. Some areas..Beaverhead County I believe are still closed. As for the rivers…everyone I have seen, except the Madison, are painfully low and as far as I know closed to fishing.  Even if they are open I would not fish them. We need more water, but more importantly we need cooler water temps. and that is happening…slowly.  The Madison was fishing just great last week.  Water temps. around 58-59 degrees…flow is near normal.  I heard the Beaverhead was looking good but very crowded…also heard the Henry’s Fork is fishing well.

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Question:

All, I found this experience to be fascinating. While fishing the Manistee river in western Michigan, Dad & I casually donned our gear and schlepped the few hundred feet from the car to a stairs leading down to the river. Upon landing we began sizing up the water and realized that we were probably in the wrong place, as the water was very featureless and deepened quickly from the banks that we found ourselves on.  Well, as we were feeling a bit lazy, we decided to give it a try anyway.  Walking upstream a few yards, I happened upon a little gravel bed that jutted into the river allowing me a few extra feet to wade so I walked out and started pondering what to fish.  Tried a few things, deep, shallow, etc with no luck.  Felt kinda like fishing a lake as there were no feature to speak of except (of course) the little gravel bed I was standing on (who was it that once said…"you can always tell the inexperienced fisherman because he is wading where he should be fishing and fishing where he should be wading?)  After about an hour of flailing about I happened to gaze down into the water and was shocked to see at least 5, yes five very large brown trout  feeding right next to my feet.  AHA! finally a challenge.  So I carefully proceded to fish every last fly in my box in every conceivable presentation style past these fish only to watch them move out of the way as my fly du seconde floated by.  After a while, I simply gave up and watched them feed, and began learning…. Russell

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Russell,    You were probably dislodging insects with your feet and the fish were taking advantage of it.  This is not an uncommon occurrence in heavily fished waters where the fish get used to the fisherman. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I found this experience to be fascinating. <snip I happened to gaze down into the water and was shocked to see at least 5, yes five very large brown trout  feeding right next to my feet <snip Russell

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Russell,    You were probably dislodging insects with your feet and the fish were taking advantage of it.  This is not an uncommon occurrence in heavily fished waters where the fish get used to the fisherman. Ernie I found this experience to be fascinating. <snip I happened to gaze down into the water and was shocked to see at least 5, yes five very large brown trout  feeding right next to my feet <snip Russell

Ernie, You are probably right, however they seemed to also be feeding in front of me in the typical dodge and slide pattern.  It was awesome to watch. Russell

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Question:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer.

Me too. I don’t know how far around the block this conversation has gone, but for my way over 2-cents worth of experience goes, there is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer.  Period.  Anyone buying a canoe should plan an spending a little more for this boat as a starter, then expect to never need to buy another all-around canoe again. See my sig file. — riverman I think, therefore I thwim. Carpe ropum. "There is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer. Period."

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I love Mad River boats BUT one might get a little argument about the Explorer being the best all rounder from Swift Kipawa fans. who would suggest that the Kipawa is more stable more speedy (and faster too) more capacious more maneuverable more white water capable more seaworthy and more perttier. — Lyle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. Me too. I don’t know how far around the block this conversation has gone, but for my way over 2-cents worth of experience goes, there is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer.  Period.  Anyone buying a canoe should plan an spending a little more for this boat as a starter, then expect to never need to buy another all-around canoe again. See my sig file. — riverman I think, therefore I thwim. Carpe ropum. "There is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer. Period."

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I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. Me too. I don’t know how far around the block this conversation has gone, but for my way over 2-cents worth of experience goes, there is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer.  Period.  Anyone buying a canoe should plan an spending a little more for this boat as a starter, then expect to never need to buy another all-around canoe again. See my sig file.

If you want one boat that will do everything, I agree (though I haven’t tried the Swift).  If you want a boat for primarily or exclusively flatwater, then there are better choices out there in composite/fiberglass/kevlar — Andrew

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I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer.

It’s been a while since I purchased my first boat, and I don’t know much about what’s out there, but my general comment would be buy the best boat you can afford.  Don’t spare the horses.  Talk to people in a local canoe and kayak club, and get their recommendations on brands. Tell them what you want to do with the boat–that’s the important part.

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I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. It’s been a while since I purchased my first boat, and I don’t know much about what’s out there, but my general comment would be buy the best boat you can afford.  Don’t spare the horses.  Talk to people in a local canoe and kayak club, and get their recommendations on brands. Tell them what you want to do with the boat–that’s the important part.

I’ve been a kayaker for a while now, but just recently my new girlfriend wanted a canoe for us.  Have been looking for a used Royalite, or Royalex canoe for a couple months — just today we found it! I consulted with other canoe-types in the club, and this Mohawk Nova 16 (or other similar brands/models) seemed to do it all.  It is Royalex.  This is the exact one we got today, used for $500 with four float bags.  Boats like this are sort of "Do It All" dealies. Each time some new person asks "Which Canoe should i get?" i always say ‘Buy a used, decent brand’ and this is the first time i’ve had to try it out. We like this boat!

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I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. I own both an Old Town Discovery and the Explorer, and find the Old Town is too heavy to carry any distance (not to mention lift). The Explorer is lighter, handles better, and yes, it’s easier on the eyes. The Discovery might plow through rocks better, but takes on water in the slightest chops. I used to own a Coleman, I’m glad it died an ugly rocky death long ago. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/5189/index.htm Reach out and touch a rock – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

Response:

The coleman is a good boat for short paddles around a quiet lake once in a while

With a dang, clanging Coleman, the lake’s not going to stay quiet for long. It’s practically a percussion instrument Eddy "Colemans are for keeping beer cool" Rapid.

Response:

It sounds like you’ve been doing your research.  I agree with all your points. About three years ago, I faced the same question.  Like you, I wanted the best for the least.  I purchased a OT Disco158.  I like it fine but if I had the opportunity to make that decision again, I would save a little more money and by the lighter boat with a more efficient hull.  I use it mostly for day paddling with my wife or fishing with my children.  I’ve run a class III in it but don’t suggest it.  I’ve paddled it 32 miles through the Okeefenokee swamp and camped out of it.  I am not interested in getting rid of it but, would not buy another. I understand the Disco169 has a more efficient hull but, it weighs in at a hefty 85lbs. You will find that weight makes more of a difference than you think.  I can car-top my 80lb canoe by myself but "it ain’t pretty."  The yolk makes it easier to carry but it still weighs 80lbs.  A lighter canoe will respond better to corrections/steering and may even be a little faster. If you can stand to wait, I’d recommend it.  You’ll just end up wanting to buy different one in a few years.  I would have by now but I am discovering both sea and whitewater kayaks! Oh yeah, one other thing.  If you really think you’re going to enjoy the sport, don’t give the Coleman too much thought.  You really DO get what you pay for in a canoe. Eric da Grate – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

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Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death…    

                        ~* s n i p *~ If you don’t mind the $65 or so shipping charge, try calling one of the companies someone mentioned else mentioned earlier: Rutabaga in Madison, Wisconsin sells LOTS of boats.  They always have new Old Town blems on hand at a greatly reduced rate.  Not a bad deal for a first boat.   They will be getting lots of used boats in another month after their annual "Canoecopia" show; many people will be trading in their boats for something new. Give them a call at 800-472-3353 (800-I-PADDLE) or check out their website:  www.paddlers.com Tell Darren I sent ya. Good luck. — To reply by email, remove mapson. from the edress Check out the links page at this site: www.paddlers.com

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Thank you all for the replies & advice. I realize that researching a purchase like this, then even trying out different boats would be the best of all worlds, but hearing from folks that have been there is also a definite help. Thanks again!

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If the Coleman is the only way you are going to get on the water, do it!  If you want a boat, get one of the others.  Go demo some boats. The newsgroups cannot tell you how you will feel in a boat.  you need to try them.  Borrow a Coleman and then you can feel the pain in your lower back as you haul it to the water.  Then you will be informed. Try a lake boat with a keel in a moving river and learn why a keel is not too swell in moving water.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

patrickatcyberhighwaydotnet

Response:

Hello!

Well hello to you! I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe.

Actually, they aren’t.  Not compared to Old Town, Mad RIver, Mohawk, etc.  I wouldn’t want to hit too many rocks with a coleman.  Aluminum canoes are extremely durable, but, and this is a BIG BUTT, it’s hard to keep the suckers quiet.  Each and every time you place your paddle in the boat, you and every fish within 300 feet will hear the ‘thud’. I hear the Boy Scouts using them all the time at Upper Priest lake in Idaho…very noisy. already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

You live around here in Spokane?  You join the Spokane Canoe and Kayak Club yet?  I’m the newsletter editor.  We’re having our largest meeting/auction/potluck of the year come February 26th — next friday. If you wanna see a LOT of activity, come see it.  Email me if you want more info.

Response:

For the money you’re looking to spend, I would suggest you test paddle an OT Penobscot 17.  I’ve used mine quite a bit on lakes in minneapolis and in the BWCA.  It’s got moderate initial stability, fantastic secondary stability.  It has no rocker so it tracks like a arrow, but turns like a pig.  Leaning into a turn can give you a good bit of effective rocker.  Its a great tripping boat.

Response:

Tom, I was in your position a few years ago, let me tell you what I bought. I found that the best tradeoff for weight, durability, and cost, for lake and occasional class I/II rivers is fiberglass.  Not the cheap chopper gun variety, but a canoe made up of decent sheet materials.  I chose a Wenonah, largely because I have a great local dealer who sells them (as well as Mad River). Fiberglass advantages are hull stiffness without bulk which = paddling efficiency, no flex while paddling, easily repairable if it does become damaged, etc.  Fiberglass slips across rocks in a low water condition much better than aluminum – avoid that material at all costs if you plan on running low water.  About the only disadvantage is that the gel coat looks beautiful when new, and quickly gets scraped up pretty bad – but that means you’re actually USING the boat, doesn’t it? Your ideal boat in a plastic would be royalex – much lighter than the Old Town crosslink.  It’s well worth the upgrade cost.  I see tons of the Discovery boats for sale – and no royalex boats for sale!! You don’t find many (good) canoes for sale, because most people have no reason to sell them! They’re not that expensive, and last a lifetime with reasonable care. Good luck! Lou – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

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Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

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Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe.

Yes, it has been done a lot, infact I bet a search on dejanews (www.dejanews.com) would answer most if not all your questions. The coleman is a good boat for short paddles around a quiet lake once in a while, or for giving to a scout troop to learn in (cheap and nigh on industructible).  I have an old town discovery 164 which is about the same as the penobscott, just weighs more… a lot more on a long portage. Personally I’d look around for a used good boat, and stay away from the colemans. Hope this helps Rich Johnson Enfield Nova Scotia Canada

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For flatwater, class I and Class II a good quality fiberglass (cloth, not spray in chopper gun) canoe would be the best bet.  I’d look for a used one, some places (like Rutabaga in Madison, WI and Piragis in ELY, MN) sell a number of used boats like that.  A new We-No-Nah in Tufweave (fiberglass like) can be had for $8-900.  Western Canoeing has similar boats.  Used Kevlar could be in the same range, used fiberglass less. These would work for Class I, not good for Class III, Class II depends on skill level.  For mostly whitewater, Royalex is a better choice, but maybe you can borrow a canoe for those infrequent forays?  It will be heavier and harder to paddle.  Coleman’s are a poor design, Discovery’s are (in the 16′ 9" and 17′ 4" versions) an okay design, but overy heavy and don’t have the long term durability of Royalex. Aluminum is a fine material for flatwater, as good or better than plastic, but can be dangerous in whitewater and a pain in shallow rivers as it tends to stick to rocks, so it’s easy to get stuck and broach. I’d rather (actually I do) have a 17′ Grumman than a Coleman or Discovery. I’d look for a quality fiberglass or used Kevlar boat from We-No-Nah, Mad River, Western, Sawyer. — Andrew Gooding

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In response to Joe McClain One of the best videos to learn to fly cast is done by Chico Fernandez. His company goes by the name of penguin. But the best advice is to get up out of your chair, go to your nearest fly shop and have them pop the video in their VCR. Check it out before you buy it! Kathy Robinson Robinson & Sons Outfitters

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Hi Kathy, Where do you fit in the Robinson & Sons Outfitters? Where are you folks located? Counsel

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I don’t think I would have known or appreciated the difference between the $30.00 rod and my Sage. The next year I bought the Sage having the knowledge to appreciate the difference.

Me too- only the other way around. After having fished with the high-falootin LLs and RPls for a couple of years, a buddy of mine who mfgs IM6 kits gave me two of his 99 dollar wonder rods. Now I wonder why the hell I spent all that loot for the Sage sticks.   Just shows to go ya.

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If you can still find one, a Fenwick Eagle or one of Cabela’s lessor priced rods might be a good by to start with.  Or be a MAN and get an Eagle Claw 4 piece fiberglass Spin/Fly rod for 7 wt. line.  This thing weighs in the pounds, not ounces, and if you use one all day your arm will simply fall off!  This rod will make you appreciate any dedicated graphite fly rod.  I have found that as I acquired better technique, I could truly tell the difference in rods.  As in all hobbies, you will find among fly fishers a certain group of "reverse" snobs who seem to feel that the only way to be a true disciple is to disdain anything top quality as being "too expensive" and "not worth it" and "a Dildofly Deluxe form K-Marts is just as good as a Thomas & Thomas" or "Orvis makes junk". etc.  They use crap and then belittle everything else in order to justify their choice.  I have all kinds of rods and the best feeling and casting rods are also the most expensive, a Sage SP 9′ 6 wt and a R.L. Winston LT 9′ 5 wt.  My other stuff is good but these are the cream of the crop.  Save your money and buy what you want. Don’t let some yo-yo tell you what a dumbass you are for buying quality.  I’m sure this will infuriate some folks but as my ol’ daddy once said, "Po’ folks have Po’ ways." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So did anyone have any suggestions for good rods in this price range. I recently saw an article in a magazine calling a pflueger rod a best buy but I can’t remember the model name of the rod. Jason, I would suggest that you try a Cortland setup, or one of the starter kits from Cabela’s. I’ve seen both for less than $100.00 and I’ve used them – they work fine. I’ve been flamed regularly for suggesting inexpensive (as opposed to cheap) flyfishing gear, but I really believe it’ll work well for you. Get an inexpensve setup and practice, practice, practice. Frank Longtine                           The Second Amendment protects your liberties, 1984 Ford                                 not your hunting rights. 1997 Rokon Trail Breaker 1993 Specialized Stumjumper Two Good Feet

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try HI_TECh tackle at 414/268-9665, very favorably review in FR&R, March 1996, for (can you guess?) 40.00 to 54.99, I have 3 from 4 to 6 wt.  great back up or beginners rods.  Made in Korea

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So did anyone have any suggestions for good rods in this price range. I recently saw an article in a magazine calling a pflueger rod a best buy but I can’t remember the model name of the rod. Thanks in advance, Jason Schwartz

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So did anyone have any suggestions for good rods in this price range. I recently saw an article in a magazine calling a pflueger rod a best buy but I can’t remember the model name of the rod.

Jason, I would suggest that you try a Cortland setup, or one of the starter kits from Cabela’s. I’ve seen both for less than $100.00 and I’ve used them – they work fine. I’ve been flamed regularly for suggesting inexpensive (as opposed to cheap) flyfishing gear, but I really believe it’ll work well for you. Get an inexpensve setup and practice, practice, practice. Frank Longtine                           The Second Amendment protects your liberties,   1984 Ford                                 not your hunting rights.       1997 Rokon Trail Breaker                       1993 Specialized Stumjumper Two Good Feet

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I’ll second that. I started out with a $30.00 rod. It worked just fine for my first year of fly fishing. When I first started out, I don’t think I would have known or appreciated the difference between the $30.00 rod and my Sage. The next year I bought the Sage having the knowledge to appreciate the difference.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -So did anyone have any suggestions for good rods in this price range. I recently saw an article in a magazine calling a pflueger rod a best buy but I can’t remember the model name of the rod. Jason, I would suggest that you try a Cortland setup, or one of the starter kits from Cabela’s. I’ve seen both for less than $100.00 and I’ve used them – they work fine. I’ve been flamed regularly for suggesting inexpensive (as opposed to cheap) flyfishing gear, but I really believe it’ll work well for you. Get an inexpensve setup and practice, practice, practice. Frank Longtine

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     I have been fishing for about fourteen years now, since I was about three.  However, the fishing I have done has been either spinning or baitcasting for various types of fish in mostly still bodies of water, or small rivers.  I recently had the opportunity to try my hand at flyfishing for trout, something which had been somewhat frightened of due to its seemingly immense complexity. Since then, it has occured to me that there was a lot that I was limiting myself from flyfishing.  The result, I am interested in starting a.s.a.p.  I realize that there is a lot to learn, and that it may take a very long time to master, but i have plenty of time ahead of me and am quite eager to learn.      First, though, it seems to me that I should first purchase a rod and a reel.  This is where my first discrepancy arises.  Being that I am new to the sport, I am unsure as to what I should purchase.  i would be using the setup mainly for bass and trout, though primarily for bass due to the limited amount of good long-term trout waters in my area.  For reference, that would be Cleveland, OH.  What weight setup should I get?  I was wondering if there is a good medium which would work well on smaller ohio bass (around two pounds, give or take) and trout, perhaps even small steelhead.  It seemed that a seven weight might be adequate.      Anyhow, I am looking to spend around 200 dollars for a decent setup.  Now for my second question.  How should I set up my line?  From what I have gathered, it seems that it would be best to use either a weight forward or bass bug taper.  However, I am unsure as far as a leader and tippet goes.  It seems as if it might be best to get a couple of sizes, depending on the situation. What are your suggestions?      To sum up a rather lengthy post, I need to know what sort of setup to purchase, and what sort of leaders and tippets to employ.  All suggestions are appreciated. Thanks in advance Ron. By the way, please mail responses directly to my.

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i would be using the setup mainly for bass and trout, though primarily for bass due to the limited amount of good long-term trout waters in my area.  For reference, that would be Cleveland, OH.  What weight setup should I get?

I would suggest a seven weight rod, with a double taper  flyline. A weight forward line would be fine as well. Anyhow, I am looking to spend around 200 dollars for a decent setup.

At that price, you’ll find a great flyfishing setup. Don’t spend too much more yet; you need practice, not fancy equipment. However, I am unsure as far as a leader and tippet goes.  It seems as if it might be best to get a couple of sizes, depending on the situation. What are your suggestions?

Stroll down to your local FFing shop and ask them what they’d suggest. They’ll have the skinny on the local conditions, and if you’re lucky, someone will take you under his wing. However, I am unsure as far as a leader and tippet goes. It seems situation. Best of luck! Frank Longtine                             the Second Amendment was not, and is not, about 1984 Ford F-150                                  hunting rights. It was, and is, about 1997 Rokon Trail Breaker                       tyrranical governments.

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Question:

I,m interested in purchasing a kickboat for fly fishing the rivers of western Montana. What are features you can’t live without and what are the features that aren’t used or needed at all.

I got a bucks bronco.  Reasons why: a. Stainless steel frame b. adjustable foot pegs (especially important if you are going to run moving water or are taller or shorter than the mythical "average") Things I don’t like: a. LOTS of places for your line to snag, especially when casting across your body (which you will do if you use it on a lake in the wind and don’t anchor) New developments: a. They just came out with a 10 foot pontoon. I wasn’t overly impressed with the "all metal back deck" available on some of the boats on the market.  Other than that There aren’t many "features" that vary between boats.  Most are rocker designs, have a seat, oarlocks, and a stripping apron.

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I,m interested in purchasing a kickboat for fly fishing the rivers of western Montana.   (Bitteroot, Blackfoot, Clark Fork).  There is some sizable water here and I’m looking for advice from someone experienced with the small craft.  I’m looking for a pontoon style, but curious to know what is best…8′, 9′, or bigger.  What are features you can’t live without and what are the features that aren’t used or needed at all. Thanks, Tom

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I,m interested in purchasing a kickboat for fly fishing the rivers of western Montana. What are features you can’t live without and what are the features that aren’t used or needed at all.

I’ve used the Bucks Bronco and like the newer models a lot.  I own a JW Outfitters Voyager and it is one tough boat that can handle Class III water with ease.

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I,m interested in purchasing a kickboat for fly fishing the rivers of western Montana. (Bitteroot, Blackfoot, Clark Fork).  There is some sizable water here and I’m looking for advice from someone experienced with the small craft.  I’m looking for a pontoon style, but curious to know what is best…8′, 9′, or bigger.  What are features you can’t live without and what are the features that aren’t used or needed at all. Thanks, Tom

Tom: I also have a Buck’s Bronco and also bought it partly because of the stainless frame.  My *only* minor complaint is the ratchet mechanism for the anchor.  Either mine doesn’t operate correctly or I’ve never figured out how to use it right.  It really doesn’t drop the anchor very easily. Other than that, I love the thing.  I’ve used it on streams here in Utah as well as Idaho & Wyoming and it’s great.  It has 8′ pontoons and I’ve had it on the Green, the Snake, and the South Fork, all pretty good-sized streams. I always wear a life vest, partly because I’m still not that experienced a boatman.  My dream is to take it on a camping float in Alaska. Good storage capacity, easy to inflate & deflate, sturdy and well-built.  If I deflate it about 3/4 of the way, it will slide fully-assembled right in the back of my SUV so carrying it is a breeze.  It really doesn’t even take long at all to figure out the rowing/kicking/maneuvering. I would say that you will occasionally find yourself pointed a different direction from where you want to cast (I do, anyway), but that can be part of the fun. Bob Bob

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Look into the Outcast PAC line. The 8′ and 10′ are great. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I,m interested in purchasing a kickboat for fly fishing the rivers of western Montana.   (Bitteroot, Blackfoot, Clark Fork).  There is some sizable water here and I’m looking for advice from someone experienced with the small craft.  I’m looking for a pontoon style, but curious to know what is best…8′, 9′, or bigger.  What are features you can’t live without and what are the features that aren’t used or needed at all. Thanks, Tom

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I,m interested in purchasing a kickboat for fly fishing the rivers of western Montana.   (Bitteroot, Blackfoot, Clark Fork).  There is some sizable water here and I’m looking for advice from someone experienced with the small craft.  I’m looking for a pontoon style, but curious to know what is best…8′, 9′, or bigger.  What are features you can’t live without and what are the features that aren’t used or needed at all. Thanks, Tom

Tom:  I’ve used the Buck’s Bag Bronco and Southfork models on the Clark Fork and Bitteroot, and they have been great, although other brands no doubt will to the job.  They have 7ft pontoons, I think (haven’t measured).  Have taken them through some pretty rough water as well. Never felt the need for an anchor or a stripping apron, although the rear deck is perfect for a cooler.  Have fun – you will love it. Mark Faulkner

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I,m interested in purchasing a kickboat for fly fishing the rivers of western Montana. What are features you can’t live without and what are the features that aren’t used or needed at all. I got a bucks bronco.  Reasons why: a. Stainless steel frame b. adjustable foot pegs (especially important if you are going to run moving water or are taller or shorter than the mythical "average") Things I don’t like: a. LOTS of places for your line to snag, especially when casting across your body (which you will do if you use it on a lake in the wind and don’t anchor) New developments: a. They just came out with a 10 foot pontoon. I wasn’t overly impressed with the "all metal back deck" available on some of the boats on the market.  Other than that There aren’t many "features" that vary between boats.  Most are rocker designs, have a seat, oarlocks, and a stripping apron.

I have a Yukon 2, by Leigh outdoor, and I work there as a part time job.  All of Leighs pontoon boats are made out of aluminum. (no rust) They tend to not be as heavy and are very strong.  We had a guy who came in who wanted one to run white water, he said he liked to fish on the side.  He ran it on the portion of the Snake below Jackson, and loved it.  I guess he ran that stretch 4 times in one day with it.  When he came back in he said that he tried to tip it over on "lunchcounter" or whichever one where the river narrows and is forced between two rock outcroppings. (its really big)  I guess he tried to go through side ways and front ways but to no avail so on the last try he through all of his weight backward and practically stood up on the foot pegs to get it to go over.  He claims he never had so much fun in his life.  It is a very sturdy boat.  Leigh makes a 10 footer for long trips as well.  It is the "gallatin".  The Yukon’s and Green river models are good for up to 3 day trips if you pack right. and are just fine for the 3 or 4 hour trip as well.  They pack down into a space of about 2 1/2 feet by 3 1/2 feet.  You can easily transport 2 in the trunk of a small car.  The unique thing is that the pontoons have a heavy inner tube in them.  (like a truck tube)  and are very durable.  All models have adjustable foot pegs that allows both big and small to be comfortable.  All the paint is powder coated on.   Not to bash other manufacturers but we have had so many calls about a certain manufacturers frames rusting out that our product designer at one time was thinking of making a frame that would fit on the competitors pontoons, but has since decided against doing so.  You don’t want a frame that has the potential to rust on you. Leigh frames carry a lifetime warrenty and are the only Coast Guard Certified pontoon boat that I know of.  They have many models to choose from and all the extra’s you can imagine.  Just find one that suited most to your needs.  If there is ever a problem you can call them and they will go to great lengths to see that you are pleased. When there is a problem and you have an upcomming trip, if they can’t fix it in time they will send you a loaner boat to get you through, until they can get your boat fixed up. Of course I’m not prejudice, I just work there.   They have a site but not all of their boats are listed, but you can call them and they will send you a catalog or tell you where the nearest supplier is or you can E-mail me and I’ll make sure you get a catalog. or http://www.b-mktg.com/leighhp/leighhp.htm or Leigh Outdoor Products 62 S. 950 W.  Brigham City UT 84302 1-435-734-0750 I hope you find the best boat for you. Shaun

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Question:

I told my wife that I was going fishing today and to have that god damned dinner done when I get home. TimW <g <seriously ….big <g <no kidding….it’s a joke, see… <I said laundry, not dinner… <g

So are you bringing a couple home for dinner? -burton — L. Burton Hawley           2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

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I told my wife that I was going fishing today and to have that god damned dinner done when I get home. TimW <g <seriously ….big <g <no kidding….it’s a joke, see… <I said laundry, not dinner… <g

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I told my wife that I was going fishing today and to have that god damned dinner done when I get home. TimW

Hi Tim Your name is changing a lot and if you treat your wife as mentioned above you could end up ‘minus’ something special. My friend, do what I did, give her the hug she deserves. By the way, my valentine, Gretchen, say hello. Take care and … — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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I would appreciate any response.

Hi there. Stan

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I thought I had seen an article about a fly fishing screensaver.  I would appreciate any response.

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