Question:

The last time I fished, I noticed an slight abrasive-type sound as I let line through the guides during a cast. What’s the best treatment for fly line? How often do you clean and treat the line?

What Willi said. Works for me. George Adams "All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of youth that doth not grow stale with age."                                                           —- J.W Muller

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Chances are your guides are worn out.  You probably have "flats" worn on the inside diameter of your snake guides.  Use a magnifying glass to see if you have worn out the inside of the guides as when you have flats you end up with very SHARP edges, which shave your fly line when you shoot the line. This shaves your fly line and in effect, destroys it.  Look also at the Tip-Top guide as this is the one which your fly line creases over 90* and does a lot of damage.  I suspect your fly rod needs reguiding. A quality line dressing will help and if you wish, you can visit the blue thingie enclosed in the sign off. Good Luck Tim, but I bet you’re going to need a new fly line also.  Hope not, but what you describe doesn’t sound very cool. Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/GG-Products-StreamSide-PZ-LineCleaner.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The last time I fished, I noticed an slight abrasive-type sound as I let line through the guides during a cast. What’s the best treatment for fly line? How often do you clean and treat the line? — TL, Tim

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162575.news.dfncis.de: The last time I fished, I noticed an slight abrasive-type sound as I let line through the guides during a cast. What’s the best treatment for fly line? How often do you clean and treat the line? and add to that, does anyone ever treat the <guides? riverman

If I’ve had a good day, I’ll buy em a beer — Scott Reverse first field of address to reply

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       The last time I fished, I noticed an slight abrasive-type sound as I let    line through the guides during a cast. What’s the best treatment for fly    line? How often do you clean and treat the line?             and add to that, does anyone ever treat the <guides?         riverman         How often you clean a fly line has alot to do with where you fish. Some waters, although they might look crystalline, tend to get a line dirty in short order. The composition of the banks also plays a part. If my line starts sinking when fishing, I generally just pull it through a piece of chammy. For a good cleaning, I first wash the line in warm water then use a line cleaner. I’ve used a number of different brands and have no preference. I occasionally give my rods a coat of car wax and in the process, the guides do get a coat of wax. It does seem to help shooting line but only for a very short time. It does help protect the rod and helps shed water. Willi

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The last time I fished, I noticed an slight abrasive-type sound as I let line through the guides during a cast. What’s the best treatment for fly line? How often do you clean and treat the line? and add to that, does anyone ever treat the <guides? riverman

I generally clean and condition my line after ~20 hours of use.  I use mild soap for the cleaning, and a conditioner produced by Scientific Angler.  As for the guides, I coat them with a thin film (just enought to leave a fingerprint when touched) of Super Lube (a silicon based gel lubricant with teflon) once a month.  AFter applying the Super Lube I wipe any excess off the exterior of the guide loop (since this is only needed on the inside of the guide) in order to keep the inside of my rod tube clean. Using the above methods, I’ve noticed increased shooting distances, improved line floatation, and greatly extended line life.

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The last time I fished, I noticed an slight abrasive-type sound as I let line through the guides during a cast. What’s the best treatment for fly line? How often do you clean and treat the line? — TL, Tim

Response:

The last time I fished, I noticed an slight abrasive-type sound as I let line through the guides during a cast. What’s the best treatment for fly line? How often do you clean and treat the line?

and add to that, does anyone ever treat the <guides? riverman

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Question:

This morning, 4/22, I looked out my window, in Northern New Jersey, and saw a mayfly on the glass.  Spinner, size 14, two tails, light grey/dun underside, heavily segmented abdomen, very small second wings.  These show up on my back door and back windows in small numbers every April.  Any opinions on possible species/genus? Beyond the question of what it was, I wondered where the dickens it came from. The lake is 150 yards away in a straight line from the front door.  And it gets very warm in summer; tosses up a ton of bug life but not mayflys.  There are some small springs about 200 yards away to the rear of the house but I didn’t think they survived the summers.  Now I have visions of a relict population of Brook Trout hiding in the town land behind me. Something to think about until I can go fishing. Glenn GKT

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You don’t give much information except grey underside and two tails.  The only thing I can think of that comes close to a size 14 is Callibaetis americanus This is no guarantee that I’ve identified it correctly but this is the may fly that fits best what you say. George Gehrke "May Days are here"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This morning, 4/22, I looked out my window, in Northern New Jersey, and saw a mayfly on the glass.  Spinner, size 14, two tails, light grey/dun underside, heavily segmented abdomen, very small second wings.  These show up on my back door and back windows in small numbers every April.  Any opinions on possible species/genus? Beyond the question of what it was, I wondered where the dickens it came from. The lake is 150 yards away in a straight line from the front door.  And it gets very warm in summer; tosses up a ton of bug life but not mayflys.  There are some small springs about 200 yards away to the rear of the house but I didn’t think they survived the summers.  Now I have visions of a relict population of Brook Trout hiding in the town land behind me. Something to think about until I can go fishing. Glenn GKT

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Question:

Practical advice snipped… Patience, determination, something the rod can rest on and be turned (by hand or with a slow motor) while the wraps are being applied and while the epoxy dries.

For a "wrapping station," take a straight, flat piece of 1" x 4" to 8" X 4.5′ to 6.5′ (US meas.) board, plywood, MDF, etc, and cut two 6" or so pieces from one end, notch a "V" into one end of each piece, glue or tack (but if tacking, don’t put the tacks in the "V" but on the sides) a couple of layers of felt into the notches.  Attach these to the base board, in an upright position, with the "V" up and the point of the "V" aligned with the centerline of the base board, about 2 1/2′ apart  Take a bolt of sufficient length and diameter to hold your thread spools, but allow it to "free spool," 2 flat "fender"-style washers, and 6 wing nuts (4 to fasten the bolt to the brackets and 2, with the washers, to control tension on the spool), and a couple of "L" brackets, and attach as a thread holder at a mid-point between the two upright notched pieces on the long base board.and voila, a "wrapping station."  If the above doesn’t provide enough detail, or isn’t clear, and anyone wants more details, I’ll be happy to further describe. HTH, R

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There’s a message board at www.vfs.com that has a rodbuilding section.

See http://www.flyshop.com/centers/rodbuilding/ Has step by step instructions.  Good concise book is LA Garcia’s Handcrafting a Graphite Fly Rod.  Doesn’t really have much more info than the web site but has very good close-up photos.  Dale Clemens’ Advanced Custom Rod Building is the book you’ll want if you really start getting into rod-building. (some of what he says about his own products should be taken with a grain of salt). Good quality blank is a St. Croix SCIV.  If you build your own rods from premium blanks you can figure on saving 40% or so below the factory rod price (with the exception of Winston which sems to charge very high prices for its blanks in comparison with their finished rods). I’ve been pleased with Lamiglas rod blanks (www.anglersworkshop.com is a good place for these). A good value on blanks can often be found when a certain rod is being discontinued. St. Croix, Lamiglas and discontinued Sage blanks have all proven their worth in my experiences as a rod builder.  I did buy a Scott blank for full price.  Expensive but I really love that rod. www.hookhack.com www.anglersworkshop.com www.shofftackle.com www.feather-craft.com Good service all around but the first two are especially friendly and helpful.  I picked up a cosmetic-blem 8′ 4 pc 3 wt Lamiglas from anglersworkshop for $35.  Not even Cabelas can beat a price like that. Mu

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I’m a DIY’er.  Always have been.

me too The last time out on the river, < snipped for brevity—

I came to same conclusion fishing for little grayling and smaller trout-but I went with a 9′ – 4 weight    -what is included when one purchases a rod blank

just that- a blank- 2 piece, 3 piece, or whatever you order.    -what steps are involved in turning it into a rod

a.)spine the rod (i.e. find out what plane it wants to bend in- lots of discussion as to what side the guides go on- on the spine or opposite b.)fit the grip and epoxy it in place c.)fit the reel seat and epoxy it in place d) buff, file the guide feet to eliminate burrs that could damage the blank or create a "crack" in the thread wrap e.)determine the guide spacing and tape or temp wrap the guides in place f.)wrap the guides (do this well – a bad job and your rod works- but its ugly) g.)verify guide alignment and re-align if neeeded h.)verify guide alignment and re-align if neeeded i.)epoxy the wraps j) install tip top k)go fishing Check the VFS (virtual flyshop)- they have an excellent breakdown on the proceedure.  though it takes longer to read than to do it.    -what additional parts/supplies need to be purchased

If you buy a blank- you will need also to buy a tip top, guide set (most manufacturers will provide recommended guide spacing), hook keeper (optional), winding check (also optional) cork grip, reel seat  with spacer, rod winding thread, rod building epoxy for gluing the cork and reel seat in place, and rod wrap epoxy ( I use Flex Cote lite & I like it). Personally-for a first attempt I’d buy a kit- it comes with all of the above, Cabelas, hook and hackle, etc all offer beginner kits and some flexibility as to what blank you want to use.    -what tools/skills are needed

a magnifying light is helpful, some sort of device to cradle the rod while you turn the blank to wrap the threads ( look at various websites – its no prob to build these things- my first cradle was a bent up coat hanger- I built my latest contraption out of plywood with felt cushions)., something to tension the thread (many run the thread between the pages of the phone book and find that this adequately tensions the thread). You will need something to sand the inside of the cork handle to allow it to fit the but of the rod–I use sandpaper taped to a broken section of an old fly rod chucked into a cordless drill  (use garnet paper- not wet/dry–if the sandpaper comes off your mandrel inside the grip, garnet paper will fall apart if you hold it under the faucet- wet or dry just giggles-ask me how I know).  It is really nice to have a low rpm motor to turn the rod while you epoxy the wraps- it allows the epoxy to self level and keeps it from sagging.  I bought just the motor and made a cradle for the rod from cabelas.    -which particular blanks represent a good value

I’ve built a 2 St Croix rods (SCIII & SCIV), both 9′ 6 wts -I like them both- and I’ve built 2 GLoomis GL3 rods that I really like (9′ 4 wt and9′ 5wt). I am about to try a blank from hook and hackle 9′6 8wt Pointers to any printed material would be appreciated too.

print out the instructions from virtual fly shop- its all you need- cabelas kits also come with step by step instructions. I bough a 5.00 book at a local flyshop printed by Guidebrod (I think). Thanks! Bill Bill- its a fun project- not terribly difficult, and you can get a pretty good rod for some savings over a factory- but its yours, built to your specs- whatever grade of seat, guides , etc you want.  go for it. John

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    -what is included when one purchases a rod blank

The rod itself without tiptop, guides, thread, color protector, slow dry epoxy for wraps, cork grip, reel seat, quick dry epoxy (for grip, seat, tiptop). The blank price includes none of that stuff. I’m guessing that some blanks come with sock and tube, but only the high-end rods I believe. Otherwise you have to buy those yourself.     -what steps are involved in turning it into a rod

Assembling the stuff above.     -what additional parts/supplies need to be purchased

The stuff above.     -what tools/skills are needed

Patience, determination, something the rod can rest on and be turned (by hand or with a slow motor) while the wraps are being applied and while the epoxy dries.     -which particular blanks represent a good value

Compared to the cost of a new finished rod, all blanks are pretty much a good value if your time is worth nothing or if you enjoy DIY. If this is going to be a "keeper" rod, you might wanna go to a fly shop and find the best rod to meet your casting style and then order the blank. Closeout rod blanks (Sage SP and LL, for example) are especially a good deal but are sometimes hard to find. My opinion: if you’re gonna buy a no-name blank to save money I think you might as well just consider purchasing an already-finished Cabelas 7.5′ 4wt Stowaway or 3wt Three forks rod for much less money than you could build one. If you really wanna DIY, I’d recommend purchasing an inexpensive blank or even a kit for your first project and treat is as a potential throw-away. Learning how to get the wraps to look good isn’t rocket science but it does take a bit of practice. Pointers to any printed material would be appreciated too.

There’s a message board at www.vfs.com that has a rodbuilding section. Browse the archives and you’ll find way more than you need to know. Be extremely careful, though, because once you build one rod you’ll find that it’s *very, very* hard to stop HTH, –Steve

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Hi- I’m a DIY’er.  Always have been.  As I mentioned recently, I’ve begun tying my own flies, which I find enjoyable.  I like to tell myself that I do these things out of frugality, but I fear that it has more to do with a stubborn notion of "jeez, I’m *sure* I could do that just as well myself!"  Of course, I usually can’t, but I have a good time trying anyhow. The last time out on the river, while landing yet another 10" trout, I got to thinking that perhaps it might be more fun with a lighter weight rod.  I currently fish a 5 weight.  My fishing has yet to find me with any fish larger than 14" on the other end, and I think I’ve had one run line off the reel twice.  I’m thinking about a 3 weight, perhaps 7.5′.  I fish streams more frequently than rivers and normally am more concerned with casting the fly "right there" rather than "waaaay over there". That got me to looking through the catalogs, which, in turn, got me to thinking about rod blanks.  I’ve seen mention of these suckers here on ROFF, but am now more intrigued about what exactly is involved in turning one into a fishable rod. Could someone outline:     -what is included when one purchases a rod blank     -what steps are involved in turning it into a rod     -what additional parts/supplies need to be purchased     -what tools/skills are needed     -which particular blanks represent a good value Pointers to any printed material would be appreciated too. Thanks! Bill

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Hi- am now more intrigued about what exactly is involved in turning one into a fishable rod. Could someone outline:     -what is included when one purchases a rod blank

The blank.  The graphite and nothing but the graphite…. …unless you buy a rod building kit which usually includes all of the parts needed (guides, reel seat, grip, tip, etc).     -what steps are involved in turning it into a rod

It’s actually quite easy. – glue the reel seat on. – glue the cork grip on. – wrap all the guides on – varnish/epoxy the wraps – glue the tip on.     -what additional parts/supplies need to be purchased

All the stuff listed above if you don’t buy a kit. Epoxy and/or varnish, guides, reel seat, thread, cork grip, tip top, hook keeper     -what tools/skills are needed

No special skills are needed.  A rod turner is really handy to have for turning the rod while the guides are drying, but other than that nothing else is absolutely needed.     -which particular blanks represent a good value

Who knows, it’s pretty much up to your values. Try a bunch of finished rods and buy a blank of the rod you like.  Hook and Hackle has some inexpensive blanks, but who knows if you would like them. Have fun,      - Ken

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi- I’m a DIY’er.   That got me to looking through the catalogs, which, in turn, got me to thinking about rod blanks.  I’ve seen mention of these suckers here on ROFF, but am now more intrigued about what exactly is involved in turning one into a fishable rod. Could someone outline:    -what is included when one purchases a rod blank    -what steps are involved in turning it into a rod    -what additional parts/supplies need to be purchased    -what tools/skills are needed    -which particular blanks represent a good value Pointers to any printed material would be appreciated too.

I don’t say this to be rude or flippant, but mainly because you start off the post with the words "I’m a DIY’er." If you are like all DIY’ers I know, you are the type who not only learns "better" and faster by "tinkering" and doing, but enjoys the learning process more when doing that way.  If I’m incorrect about this, post as such, and I’ll offer more specific advice if I have any that seems helpful. That said, if I may:   There are numerous websites, a www.google.com search ought to keep you busy for weeks, and there are quite a few books out there as well, and of course, ROFF is a decent source.  Dale Clemens has a book, which IIRC, is called _Fiberglass Rod Making_ (I don’t have it handy at the moment).  I like his books, but some find them a bit too advanced (and some find it dated) – YMMV, of course.   As to the actual work, go get an assortment of REALLY used cheap rods (like the 1-5USD ones at charity stores, tag/garage sales, etc.) – fly rods, bait-casting rods, spinning rods, whatever.  Just try to get an assortment of types, and try to make sure most have cork handles. Condition, brand, etc. isn’t really important, even broken and incomplete rods are fine.  If you happen to stumble over something that might be a restorable "keeper," just put it away for now.  Once you have several "project rods," find a reference source you like, be it online, a book, or here, and start taking the rods apart, noting how they were assembled.  Then simply reverse the process, finishing the rods and learning while you go.   Use the worst of the bunch first, even broken rods, knowing full well they are simply learning projects.  You’ll likely have specific questions, and feel free to ask them on ROFF.  You’ll find lots of info here, some good, some not-so-good, and some, well, let’s just say it’s there. HTH?? R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks! Bill

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Question:

  And now, back to your regularly scheduled programmming….. bite me Warren!

Go smoke a whitefish! — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

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fishing depends (at least in part) on thinking like a fish.  I’ve tried it. Makes my brain hurt.

My guess is that if we are thinking like a fish we would eat sticks and rocks. I keep finding them in the fish that I keep. Big Dale

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Excellent synopsis Peter.  These types of discussions were what first attracted me to and later hooked me on ROFF.  My thanks to you, Willi, et all for the thought provoking insights/explanations.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled programmming….. bite me Warren!

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I am a fairly new fly fisher and an even newer tier. I have been fortunate enough to have a few experienced hands tell me that I am far more picky about my flies than the fish. Also, worry about developing the tying skills and your flies will look more like the store flies as you get better. In the mean time, it’s pretty darn cool to catch a fish on something that you made by hand. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even during hatches, not all the fish will be keyed into the same features on a fly. With some, wings may be important, others how high or low the fly floats, others size, others sparseness, other "action", others color, other orientation etc. etc.  Just like people, I think there are fish that look for certain "right" characteristics in a fly and are triggered by it, those that look for something wrong and if found will reject it, and those that just want something to eat. Individual fish have individual feeding habits and preferences. There is no magic fly. Being successful means finding a fly that appeals to the majority of fish and turns off few. Like most fly fishermen, I judge a fly by how it looks to me. But there is an added dimension to this that we tend to overlook. A fish is a species of animal that has more differences than commonality with man. It is impossible for us to perceive a fly as a fish perceives it, in a direct way. Color is an easy example. Trout and other fishes that live in shallow/clear water, perceive colors farther in both the shorter and longer wave lengths than people. This means that it is impossible to judge how a fish perceives the color of a fly using our eyes. What looks like a color match to us, may be completely off to a fish. Willi

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<snipped a whole bunch for the Grand Poohbah   Often times a fish will demand a perfect size match, or wing or color etc. but will ignore that hunk of metal sticking out of the fly’s butt. If a fish can discriminate between a size twenty and a size twenty two fly, they definitely have the acuity to see the hook bend. Do they ignore it if enough other characteristics of the fly are "correct" or do they "not see it" because of the way their little brains interpret what the signals their eyes are sending?

Willi, I can’t remember if you were there when this happened during the clave or not.  We were fishing and saw a fish swallow a bunch of moss and then spit it out.  Perhaps there was a morsel of food in that bunch of moss and the fish separated it and then spit the moss back out.  It could be that the fish sees the hook as debris to filter out from the food and takes the fly anyways.  Just a thought. — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

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What a trout perceives is a problem amenable to experiment….and it’s been done.

Wolfgang, Like usual, I don’t know how to take what you say but did you mean the above? If so, I’d like to see it. Willi

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As we all know, the trout’s brain is quite small and simple. Not to be a wise-ass, but we do?  I mean, I think you’re right, but to pull a Wolfgang (which ain’t easy, lemme tell ya), how do we know? Granted, we can measure it as far as physical size, and do some experiments as far as electric charges, etc., but how can we (at this point, anyway) really know what a fish is "thinking" or perceiving? It ain’t SUPPOSED to be easy!  Nevertheless, here’s a little tip: never try to get away with making two (or three) points look like one.

Well, thanks, but, basically, I was calling you fat…. A trout’s brain IS small and relatively simple.  We could go into all kinds of tedious detail about comparative neuroanatomy (and the literature is voluminous) but it’s late and I need to get to bed.

And so is the literature that says there is, or isn’t, a God or Gods, that Communism is the best thing since, well, others say it wasn’t, and with the advent of the Web, probably quite a bit claiming Elvis, JFK, and Marilyn Monroe are having a nightly GB at Bill Gates’ house. What a trout perceives is a problem amenable to experiment….and it’s been done.

Granted, we…well, ok, "we" implies the wrong thing, so – someone can likely get general info, like, "shine light, fish swims away" and "fish tries to eat this, but not that," but I’m dubious we can truly know what fish "think," perceive, or whatever you call it, i.e., knowing the fish "thinks" a particular thing is or isn’t, and more importantly, why.  For example, I’d run away from a group of people having a Beastie Boys marathon, but not because I’m scared of the people, music, or the Beastie Boys, but I don’t like them, either.  On the other hand, I might sit and listen with a group of gangbangers who happened to like, oh, say, Bobby Short, Bob Wills, or certain Jane’s Addiction cuts.   One reason I’m sure "we" haven’t discovered such information (past a certain superficial level, anyway) is because especially with things like fish, which leads to fishing, is that it would get exploited before the ink was dry on the reports.  I hate to sound cynical, but I think if "we" could truly and accurately figure out what makes fish "tick," or what they "think" (again, accurately is key), companies would be on it like, well, fish on scientifically-developed foolproof (the key) lures.  Moreover, even when the ability to vocally express how a creature is feeling is there, even that isn’t a completely accurate measure…look at women, for example…. We are all familiar with the adage that suggests success in fishing depends (at least in part) on thinking like a fish.  I’ve tried it. Makes my brain hurt.

Yeah, and it’s always made me laugh…why the hell would I want to think like the thing I’m trying to outsmart and catch.  For example, if a lion thought like a Tommy, would another lion get confused and eat him, or even more odd, would he get confused and die of exhaustion trying to outrun himself?  Heck, maybe he’d just have a crisis of conscience and run off and become a vegan and try to convert the pride.  Soon, he’d be smoking clove cigarettes, getting arrested with Al Sharpton, and whining about Nike factories and under-sized limos. Next thing you know, he’d be hanging out with Paul McCartney, and Lord knows what else…well, actually, I think the Lord did know, which is why lions don’t flit about trying to think like Tommies…..they just catch ‘em and eat ‘em….. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Wolfgang

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As we all know, the trout’s brain is quite small and simple. Not to be a wise-ass, but we do?  I mean, I think you’re right, but to pull a Wolfgang (which ain’t easy, lemme tell ya), how do we know? Granted, we can measure it as far as physical size, and do some experiments as far as electric charges, etc., but how can we (at this point, anyway) really know what a fish is "thinking" or perceiving?

It ain’t SUPPOSED to be easy!  Nevertheless, here’s a little tip: never try to get away with making two (or three) points look like one. A trout’s brain IS small and relatively simple.  We could go into all kinds of tedious detail about comparative neuroanatomy (and the literature is voluminous) but it’s late and I need to get to bed. What a trout perceives is a problem amenable to experiment….and it’s been done. We are all familiar with the adage that suggests success in fishing depends (at least in part) on thinking like a fish.  I’ve tried it. Makes my brain hurt. Wolfgang

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <Big Snip I’ll take dogs as an example, I know them pretty well after working with them for many years. If we try and understand how they smell things based on how we smell things, we couldn’t even begin to understand the complexity, importance and usefulness of smells in their life. Their sense of smell, how they interpret smells, and how they can use them is as alien to our sense of smell as our "intellect" is to theirs. If we used our sense of smell to try and understand theirs, our knowledge would be completely erroneous. Willi I told my wife about this post and tried to get her to conduct an experiment, but she wouldn’t do it. All I wanted her to do was let me get the video camera and shoot video of her sniffing our Basset Hound’s butt and then giving me her perceptions. Among "other" things, she said I’d been on this news group way too long. <g

Post of the week, great image!! Willi

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[snip] What does a trout see when our dry passes overhead? – a protruding hook that is below the surface and produces no dimpling or halos

This is one of things that convinced me that a trout’s perception of a fly is very different from ours. In looking at the photos of underwater views of a fly, the bend of the hook and the barb is VERY prevalent. To my eye it is probably the most prevalent thing. However, a trout will overlook this but at times demand an exact match in terms of size, shape, color, etc. Willi

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First off, the dimpling of the surface film has to look right, it’ll be the first thing the fish responds to.

   I believe this is often of major importance. When fishing with a dry fly, I often cast to spots I *know* hold fish, and I get no response because the fly is riding a little low in the water. After treating it with desiccant it will be riding on the very tips of the hackles; it just amazes me how this can trigger strikes from fish that weren’t the least bit interested in the same fly moments earlier.

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First off, the dimpling of the surface film has to look right, it’ll be the first thing the fish responds to.    I believe this is often of major importance. When fishing with a dry fly, I often cast to spots I *know* hold fish, and I get no response because the fly is riding a little low in the water. After treating it with desiccant it will be riding on the very tips of the hackles; it just amazes me how this can trigger strikes from fish that weren’t the least bit interested in the same fly moments earlier.

(I noticed you use this technique on a fish that short struck the other day on the Big T) And sometimes the opposite is true, the fish will take a partly submerged fly after rejecting the same fly floating high and dry. This happened to me yesterday. Willi

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This is one of things that convinced me that a trout’s perception of a fly is very different from ours. In looking at the photos of underwater views of a fly, the bend of the hook and the barb is VERY prevalent. To my eye it is probably the most prevalent thing. However, a trout will overlook this but at times demand an exact match in terms of size, shape, color, etc. Willi

I think that the most dominant visual feature is the light refracted through the dimpled surface film.  The fish first react to that and everything else is superfluous until it is an inch or so from the fly. At that point, colour, size, wing, etc. come into play. A partially drowned fly may work if the fish is keyed on emerging or drowned insects. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is one of things that convinced me that a trout’s perception of a fly is very different from ours. In looking at the photos of underwater views of a fly, the bend of the hook and the barb is VERY prevalent. To my eye it is probably the most prevalent thing. However, a trout will overlook this but at times demand an exact match in terms of size, shape, color, etc. Willi I think that the most dominant visual feature is the light refracted through the dimpled surface film.  The fish first react to that and everything else is superfluous until it is an inch or so from the fly. At that point, colour, size, wing, etc. come into play.

That’s how the photos of dry flies from underwater appear to us. I question that they are perceived in the same manner by a trout. Often times a fish will demand a perfect size match, or wing or color etc. but will ignore that hunk of metal sticking out of the fly’s butt. If a fish can discriminate between a size twenty and a size twenty two fly, they definitely have the acuity to see the hook bend. Do they ignore it if enough other characteristics of the fly are "correct" or do they "not see it" because of the way their little brains interpret what the signals their eyes are sending? The point I’m trying to make is that when we use our vision to try and explain how a trout or any other animal uses their vision, I think that alot of the assumptions made are going to be erroneous. This is especially true if, like in the case of trout vision, there are demonstrative physical differences in vision components between that animal and ourselves. Also, vision is more than how the eye perceives something, it is how the brain interprets the signals that it receives from the eye.   I’ll take dogs as an example, I know them pretty well after working with them for many years. If we try and understand how they smell things based on how we smell things, we couldn’t even begin to understand the complexity, importance and usefulness of smells in their life. Their sense of smell, how they interpret smells, and how they can use them is as alien to our sense of smell as our "intellect" is to theirs. If we used our sense of smell to try and understand theirs, our knowledge would be completely erroneous. Willi

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I’ll take dogs as an example, ….. ….. If we used our sense of smell to try and understand theirs, our knowledge would be completely erroneous.

True, but no more erroneous than if we *didn’t* use our sense of smell to try to understand theirs.  ;) I agree with everything you say about our sense of vision necessarily being different from a trout’s, but it’s really the closest thing we have to work with and base our guesses on.  Otherwise we’re reduced to throwing up our hands and relying on "conclusions" drawn from what are really small, highly variable samples (our own personal experiences).  AND we’d have less to BS about. JR

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think that the most dominant visual feature is the light refracted through the dimpled surface film.  The fish first react to that and everything else is superfluous until it is an inch or so from the fly. At that point, colour, size, wing, etc. come into play. That’s how the photos of dry flies from underwater appear to us. I question that they are perceived in the same manner by a trout. Often times a fish will demand a perfect size match, or wing or color etc. but will ignore that hunk of metal sticking out of the fly’s butt. If a fish can discriminate between a size twenty and a size twenty two fly, they definitely have the acuity to see the hook bend. Do they ignore it if enough other characteristics of the fly are "correct" or do they "not see it" because of the way their little brains interpret what the signals their eyes are sending?

[snip] As we all know, the trout’s brain is quite small and simple.  It can only process so many visual cues.  If we make this process overly complex, I think we make it more difficult than it need be.  I believe that a trout processes the visual cues that say "food" and ignores those that suggest otherwise (e.g. the hook.)  After all, a trout’s world is full of drifting debris.  It has to have a simple, yet quick way to differentiate between a small stick and a nymph, for example. If your fly has the necessary cues, the trout takes it, despite the big, ugly hook.  This differentiation process is probably learned through repetition – the more bugs of a certain type that pass by a trout, the more likely it will fixate on them and begin to feed.  It probably has to learn what is good to eat, every time a major hatch occurs – this explains why the early part of a hatch may not engender much of response. It may well perceive colour, light refraction, etc. differently than us, but there is only a few cues we need to get right.  This is one of the reasons why I don’t like to stray too much from the original materials in an old recipe.  Skues talks about how certain materials have a special quality in the water and appear more like the natural when presented in the trout’s world.  I think if you get the hackle and tail, size, and colour right, you’ll fool trout more often than not. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think that the most dominant visual feature is the light refracted through the dimpled surface film.  The fish first react to that and everything else is superfluous until it is an inch or so from the fly. At that point, colour, size, wing, etc. come into play. That’s how the photos of dry flies from underwater appear to us. I question that they are perceived in the same manner by a trout. Often times a fish will demand a perfect size match, or wing or color etc. but will ignore that hunk of metal sticking out of the fly’s butt. If a fish can discriminate between a size twenty and a size twenty two fly, they definitely have the acuity to see the hook bend. Do they ignore it if enough other characteristics of the fly are "correct" or do they "not see it" because of the way their little brains interpret what the signals their eyes are sending? [snip] As we all know, the trout’s brain is quite small and simple.

Not to be a wise-ass, but we do?  I mean, I think you’re right, but to pull a Wolfgang (which ain’t easy, lemme tell ya), how do we know? Granted, we can measure it as far as physical size, and do some experiments as far as electric charges, etc., but how can we (at this point, anyway) really know what a fish is "thinking" or perceiving? It can only process so many visual cues.  If we make this process overly complex, I think we make it more difficult than it need be.  I believe that a trout processes the visual cues that say "food" and ignores those that suggest otherwise (e.g. the hook.)  After all, a trout’s world is full of drifting debris.  It has to have a simple, yet quick way to differentiate between a small stick and a nymph, for example. If your fly has the necessary cues, the trout takes it, despite the big, ugly hook.  

Maybe they just intend to eat what appears to be the bug and not what appears to be whatever the hook appears to be.  When one gets a club sandwich, one doesn’t think, "Hmm, this looks good, well, except for that frilly stick in it.  I wonder if I have to eat that, too?" so perhaps it simply looks like a fish’s frilly stick or parsley sprig or whatever, or maybe they see insects on or near actual sticks, and eat the bug and either not eat or spit out the stick – maybe they see a stick and a bug, and when they spit out the stick, to their surprise and your consternation, the whole thing goes.  Or maybe, just like most living creatures, including humans, close is good enough if you are hungry enough or the food looks good enough.  If simply looking odd or different prevented predation, we’d be up to our hat brims  in things like albinos, genetic appearance deformities (that had no health ramifications), etc. because they’d be no natural predators of such things (well, except man and a few other things), they’d gradually become more prevalent. This differentiation process is probably learned through repetition – the more bugs of a certain type that pass by a trout, the more likely it will fixate on them and begin to feed.  It probably has to learn what is good to eat, every time a major hatch occurs – this explains why the early part of a hatch may not engender much of response. It may well perceive colour, light refraction, etc. differently than us, but there is only a few cues we need to get right.  This is one of the reasons why I don’t like to stray too much from the original materials in an old recipe.  Skues talks about how certain materials have a special quality in the water and appear more like the natural when presented in the trout’s world.  I think if you get the hackle and tail, size, and colour right, you’ll fool trout more often than not.

If you look at writers of the beginnings of the "dry fly era of prominence" (say from about 1870 to Mary Orvis Marbury, etc., forward), you find that there are vast differences of opinion as to replication vs. stimulation vs. "tempting" vs. simple guessing vs. planned experimentation.  Many felt that "fooling" the fish by making them think the fly was a true natural was all but impossible, and the closer you tried to get, the more "unnatural" your imitator would appear.  Maybe it was a mirror of the Impressionists, but some seem to feel that "suggesters" were more effective than imitators.  FWIW, my view has always been (and admittedly, it is both acquired from others and self-discovery) that there is much more to it than accurate-to-us appearing imitators, but YMMV.  For example, how many have had beat-up, ratty, tattered old flies, lures, etc., that produced better than new, truly accurate imitators? As to the history of the subject, if anyone is interested, I have some pretty old volumes, and some do talk about this very subject, plus I’m sure there are many others with other works, so perhaps we can piece together a history of this aspect of the sport. TC, R

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<Big Snip I’ll take dogs as an example, I know them pretty well after working with them for many years. If we try and understand how they smell things based on how we smell things, we couldn’t even begin to understand the complexity, importance and usefulness of smells in their life. Their sense of smell, how they interpret smells, and how they can use them is as alien to our sense of smell as our "intellect" is to theirs. If we used our sense of smell to try and understand theirs, our knowledge would be completely erroneous. Willi

I told my wife about this post and tried to get her to conduct an experiment, but she wouldn’t do it. All I wanted her to do was let me get the video camera and shoot video of her sniffing our Basset Hound’s butt and then giving me her perceptions. Among "other" things, she said I’d been on this news group way too long. <g

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Excellent synopsis Peter.  These types of discussions were what first attracted me to and later hooked me on ROFF.  My thanks to you, Willi, et all for the thought provoking insights/explanations. — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] What does a trout see when our dry passes overhead? – a hackle dimpled surface film producing halos of light – a tail that also produces a dimpling along its length and the same light refraction – a protruding hook that is below the surface and produces no dimpling or halos – a body that for the most part is in shadow – the solid outline of a dun’s wings – all of this seen against a bright sky background First off, the dimpling of the surface film has to look right, it’ll be the first thing the fish responds to.  As she gets closer, the colour and wing start to become important.  A fish can focus on a fly less than an inch from its nose – its close range vision is excellent – so the rest of the details have to start to make sense, the wing, the body colour, the size, etc. Trout seem to take flies for a number of reasons – obviously hunger and it matches what she’s been eating for the last half hour, curiosity, aggression, and playfulness.  I mentioned in a much earlier post, being fooled by three little browns that raced around chasing Gray Foxes.  It’s not wise to take an anthropomorphic interpretation of their behaviour, however, had they simply been hungry, they could have sat in one of the many feeding lanes and sipped Gray Foxes all afternoon.  It’s difficult to interpret their pack chasing behaviour as anything other than playful competition.  They also keyed on moving Gray Foxes, a still natural or imitation didn’t get a look. To sum it up, the fly should sit right, producing the right halos, plus it should cast a shadow of approximately the right size, and finally, it’s details should be right to pass the close range examination. This applies to picky fish in slower water condition; brookies in fast water tend to slash at anything that looks like food.  So in my neck of the woods, flies that will catch brookies on the cascade section of the Credit, will be a complete bust on the slow glides of the Grand. There’s too much variation o attempt generalize much further than this. (Much of the above wisdom, courtesy of various books by Lafontaine, Skues, et al.) Peter Visit The Streamer Page at

http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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<snipped interesting speculations of an experienced fishtricker  They also keyed on moving Gray Foxes, a still natural or imitation didn’t get a look.

kinda like on penns creek when we were there…  the march browns had to quiver a bit and just right to interest most of those finicky browns …anything just floating motionless on the water generally wouldn’t be touched.  i saw dozens of fish nail the bug just as it was starting to take off from the surface, and several coming full-body out of the water like a salmon to grab the bug in the air.  that was one of those memory etchings i look forward to collecting more of…

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Even during hatches, not all the fish will be keyed into the same features on a fly. With some, wings may be important, others how high or low the fly floats, others size, others sparseness, other "action", others color, other orientation etc. etc.  Just like people, I think there are fish that look for certain "right" characteristics in a fly and are triggered by it, those that look for something wrong and if found will reject it, and those that just want something to eat. Individual fish have individual feeding habits and preferences. There is no magic fly. Being successful means finding a fly that appeals to the majority of fish and turns off few. Like most fly fishermen, I judge a fly by how it looks to me. But there is an added dimension to this that we tend to overlook. A fish is a species of animal that has more differences than commonality with man. It is impossible for us to perceive a fly as a fish perceives it, in a direct way. Color is an easy example. Trout and other fishes that live in shallow/clear water, perceive colors farther in both the shorter and longer wave lengths than people. This means that it is impossible to judge how a fish perceives the color of a fly using our eyes. What looks like a color match to us, may be completely off to a fish. Willi

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Just like people, I think there are fish that look for certain "right" characteristics in a fly and are triggered by it…

- "Hey, Jimmie, looks like we got a hotty floating by at three o’clock!" – "Woa, dude, check out the hackles on *that* one!" – "Hey, there, midge! Why doncha drift on over to *my* riffle, baby?" –Steve (if fish could talk)

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Like most fly fishermen, I judge a fly by how it looks to me. But there is an added dimension to this that we tend to overlook. A fish is a species of animal that has more differences than commonality with man. It is impossible for us to perceive a fly as a fish perceives it, in a direct way. Color is an easy example. Trout and other fishes that live in shallow/clear water, perceive colors farther in both the shorter and longer wave lengths than people. This means that it is impossible to judge how a fish perceives the color of a fly using our eyes. What looks like a color match to us, may be completely off to a fish.

Not only do we merely perceive color differently than the fish (probably), we probably also overestimate color and underestimate behavior of the bug. This idea is explored in "What The Trout Said" and "Dry Fly: New Angles".

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Like most fly fishermen, I judge a fly by how it looks to me. But there is an added dimension to this that we tend to overlook. A fish is a species of animal that has more differences than commonality with man. It is impossible for us to perceive a fly as a fish perceives it, in a direct way. Color is an easy example. Trout and other fishes that live in shallow/clear water, perceive colors farther in both the shorter and longer wave lengths than people. This means that it is impossible to judge how a fish perceives the color of a fly using our eyes. What looks like a color match to us, may be completely off to a fish.

And although it simply states the obvious, the fish views the fly from a completely different angle, and through a different medium, so even if they did see (eye construction- and placement-wise) in the same manner as people, their frame of reference is completely different. It’s unlikely that man and fish will ever see a fly the same, regardless of the difference in the eyes. Moreover, we can not know what differences would go ignored, which would be seen as different but "OK," and which were different and off-putting.  As a simple example, most people would recognize and accept Wendy’s square hamburger as just another burger variant and eat it if they wanted a burger (yeah, yeah, eyeball jokes, taste, etc., aside), but given a choice between a burger with, say, asparagus spears, raw oysters, and orange sherbet and a plain burger, most would likely choose the plain one (even if they’d eat all the items in other combinations).   But as Willi points out, fish seem to be like people in that they do have individual habits, and occasionally, just like kids drinking pickle juice over ice, a fish might try and eat something different.   Fish "dine" on what comes past or is within sight, they don’t seem to "plan" dinner – "Ooh, honey, doesn’t the Four Seasons sound good, and then, we can go by the Carlyle for drinks and a little Bobby…" or decide that the tacos at El Asadero sound better than the seafood at Costa Azul and head that way.  But they can sometimes be tempted by teasing them with something that looks "food-ish" enough AND different enough to tempt them into taking a chance, just like you do when the waiter suggests the entire tenderloin, rare, with Hollandaise and a large side of creamed spinach, or the dessert cart comes by with the Double Chocolate Drunken Fudge Cream Cake with Buttery-Sweet Ice Cream on top.  You know you shouldn’t, the better half is gonna bitch, but like a moth to a flame….or rather, a hog to a trough…. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Willi

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[snip] What does a trout see when our dry passes overhead? – a hackle dimpled surface film producing halos of light – a tail that also produces a dimpling along its length and the same light refraction – a protruding hook that is below the surface and produces no dimpling or halos – a body that for the most part is in shadow – the solid outline of a dun’s wings – all of this seen against a bright sky background First off, the dimpling of the surface film has to look right, it’ll be the first thing the fish responds to.  As she gets closer, the colour and wing start to become important.  A fish can focus on a fly less than an inch from its nose – its close range vision is excellent – so the rest of the details have to start to make sense, the wing, the body colour, the size, etc. Trout seem to take flies for a number of reasons – obviously hunger and it matches what she’s been eating for the last half hour, curiosity, aggression, and playfulness.  I mentioned in a much earlier post, being fooled by three little browns that raced around chasing Gray Foxes.  It’s not wise to take an anthropomorphic interpretation of their behaviour, however, had they simply been hungry, they could have sat in one of the many feeding lanes and sipped Gray Foxes all afternoon.  It’s difficult to interpret their pack chasing behaviour as anything other than playful competition.  They also keyed on moving Gray Foxes, a still natural or imitation didn’t get a look.   To sum it up, the fly should sit right, producing the right halos, plus it should cast a shadow of approximately the right size, and finally, it’s details should be right to pass the close range examination. This applies to picky fish in slower water condition; brookies in fast water tend to slash at anything that looks like food.  So in my neck of the woods, flies that will catch brookies on the cascade section of the Credit, will be a complete bust on the slow glides of the Grand. There’s too much variation o attempt generalize much further than this. (Much of the above wisdom, courtesy of various books by Lafontaine, Skues, et al.) Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Question:

I’m still looking for some help to get Fly fishing america magazine, anyone can help me! I got the last one with the 58 travel rod review, but i would like to get the other one that will come out! please contact me directly if you can help me! Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

As some of you know i can’t get that nice magazine in Canada, some nice fellow board member sent me the last one with the review of the 58 travel rod.

Bob, here is the web page for the magazine www.flyfishamerica.com/ and I sent Bill Battles email suggesting he allow the folks in the boonies an opportunity to subscribe (or in my case prescribe) to his fine magazine. Maybe if enough of us do ask, we might be able to convince them to mail us the latest issues?  Who knows? Padishar Creel

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Fly fishing america magazine…. Thanks Padishar, They seem a bunch of nice folks tough! I’m trying to find someone who can send me copy regularly as they came out!  Too bad we can’t subscribe ‘caus i would. A canadian in distress! Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

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As it happens, I’m planning to head down to the shop this afternoon.   If it’s there, I’ll get it for you.

Sorry, nothing new.   The "Travel Rod" issue was the only issue in the shop. Joe F.

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Thanks for your effort Joe, Be sure  to let me know when the next issue comes out! Thanks again! Robert Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

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As some of you know i can’t get that nice magazine in Canada, some nice fellow board member sent me the last one with the review of the 58 travel rod. Is the new one out yet if so, would somebody be kind enough to send me two copies! I’ll cover the shipping! Please get in touch with me

Your timing is very good Robert.   As it happens, I’m planning to head down to the shop this afternoon.   If it’s there, I’ll get it for you. Joe F.

Response:

As some of you know i can’t get that nice magazine in Canada, some nice fellow board member sent me the last one with the review of the 58 travel rod. Is the new one out yet if so, would somebody be kind enough to send me two copies! I’ll cover the shipping! Please get in touch with me Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Question:

When I was young, a teacher of mine read from a book about fly fishing on the Brule river in Wisconsin.  Wondering if anyone knows the name of that writer or the name of any of those books.   — jm

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Gordon MacQuarrie stories, published in the 40’s and 50’s in outdoor magazines, were collected in 3 volumes as "Stories of the Old Duck Hunters", "More Stories of the ODHs" and (I think) "Last Stories of the ODHs".  About half the stories are hunting, half are fishing, mainly on the Brule.  Then there was a fourth volume, "Lost Stories of the ODH", which was stuff they missed the first time thru. Gordon MacQuarrie is my favorite fishing author.  Traver and Gierach and others get as good occasionally, but every MacQuarrie story is excellent.  Henry VanDyke is a close second.   Frank Stetzer                        "…a cheerful comrade is better Employed by, but not speaking for     foot-warmer."  Henry Van Dyke, Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA     "Fisherman’s Luck", 1899. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I was young, a teacher of mine read from a book about fly fishing on the Brule river in Wisconsin.  Wondering if anyone knows the name of that writer or the name of any of those books.   — jm

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When I was young, a teacher of mine read from a book about fly fishing on the Brule river in Wisconsin.  Wondering if anyone knows the name of that writer or the name of any of those books.   — jm

Its a good bet that it was Gordon MacQuarrie. Check out this book (info from http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1572230258/t/002-4166657-7704468) I got this book for Christmas and have read it twice already. Jim Fly Fishing With MacQuarrie by Zack Taylor, Gordon MacQuarrie List: $19.50 Our Price: $13.65 You Save: $5.85 (30%) Availability: This title usually ships within 2-3 days. Hardcover Published by Willow Creek Pr Dimensions (in inches): 0.97 x 10.26 x 7.23 ISBN: 1572230258 — Jim Jacoby Mt. Horeb, WI To send a reply, remove "-take_this_out-" from the address.

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When I was young, a teacher of mine read from a book about fly fishing on the Brule river in Wisconsin.  Wondering if anyone knows the name of that writer or the name of any of those books.  

Beats me!  I used to fish the brule a lot when I was a kid, and learned to flyfish there. To me it still stands as one of the most beautiful trout rivers on this planet – absolutely gorgeous.   I don’t reacll anyone writng about it at length.  There has been an article or two, and honorable mentions in guidebooks. It was in it’s time VERY popular nationally.  Teddy Roosevelt fished the Cedar Island water.  Calvin Coolidge liked the Brule so much they named the hwy that follows it south from US 2 after him.  Dwight Eisenhower had friends with a house at the lower end of Big Lake, and fished there often. I suspect that many other notables fished there too. If there is a book out there that speaks of the Brule, I’d love to find a copy. BTW:  what prompted this teacher to use that book.  Why did it stick with you?  have you ever been there?  A thread on the Brule would be a pleasant diversion – I do have a story or two of my own about her. </chaz

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Perhaps we had the same teacher.  My fourth grade teacher read me "Rascal", by Sterling North.   This is a heart-rendering book set in Southern Wisconsin, during the 1910’s, about a boy and his pet racoon.  Part of the book relates the wonderful trip that Sterling and Rascal had to northern Wisconsin, much of it along the Brule.  I recently read the book to my children and they love the story as much as I did then and still do now.  A definite top ten book in my life.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -When I was young, a teacher of mine read from a book about fly fishing on the Brule river in Wisconsin.  Wondering if anyone knows the name of that writer or the name of any of those books. — jm

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Thanks for the help from folks.  To answer Chaz’s questions.  I think he read from it because he loved fishing.  I think I remember it because it sounded like such a great place and it was in Wisconsin.   My question was prompted because I work at Wisc Public Television and we are working on a show about fishing in Wisconsin for Aug 99 and the Brule will be featured in the show.   jm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW:  what prompted this teacher to use that book.  Why did it stick with you?  have you ever been there?  A thread on the Brule would be a pleasant diversion – I do have a story or two of my own about her. </chaz

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gordon MacQuarrie stories, published in the 40’s and 50’s in outdoor magazines, were collected in 3 volumes as "Stories of the Old Duck Hunters", "More Stories of the ODHs" and (I think) "Last Stories of the ODHs".  About half the stories are hunting, half are fishing, mainly on the Brule.  Then there was a fourth volume, "Lost Stories of the ODH", which was stuff they missed the first time thru. Gordon MacQuarrie is my favorite fishing author.  Traver and Gierach and others get as good occasionally, but every MacQuarrie story is excellent.  Henry VanDyke is a close second. Frank Stetzer                        "…a cheerful comrade is better Employed by, but not speaking for     foot-warmer."  Henry Van Dyke, Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA     "Fisherman’s Luck", 1899. When I was young, a teacher of mine read from a book about fly fishing on the Brule river in Wisconsin.  Wondering if anyone knows the name of that writer or the name of any of those books. — jm

This is my first post in a NG.  Absolutely, yessir, right on, AMEN. MacQuarrie is without peer.  Every one of his short stories a classic. I fished the Bois Brule in Northwestern WI (not to be confused with the "Border Brule" in Upper Michigan) for the first time last summer.  It was just great visiting the places MacQuarrie mentions in his writings.  It was like visiting an old friend.  I will be back again this year.  Then maybe someday the Roaring Fork and Frying Pan in CO and maybe someday the Yellowstone area with all the great spots out there.   Then maybe ….?

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<snip   My question was prompted because I work at Wisc Public Television and we are working on a show about fishing in Wisconsin for Aug 99 and the Brule will be featured in the show.   jm

Kewl! If you have any say in what gets filmed take a look at the water around Cedar Island.  Used be a resort/lodge – lately owned by the Ordway family.  Classic, beautiful trout water.  I used to sneak into the lower end when I was a kid, and fish my brains out. Teddy Rooselvelt fished there.  Stories tell that before teddy arrived, the folks at the hatchery downriver in Brule netted out a bunch of big brood fish they usually kept in a big pool, put them in one of the rearing runs and starved them for a couple days.  The day before The Man arrived at Cedar Island they turned these hungry monsters loose in a side channel with pools the lodge owners had dug for their guests.  The President would be assured of "good fishing". Another good run would be just below Big Lake.  Wildcat Rapids.  There’s no public access to this water except by canoe, so it won’t be real crowded.  This was my favorite stretch as a kid.  The Caretaker for one of the properties there was a friend of my Grandpa’s and would let us in when the owners weren’t around.  I’d give my eyeteeth to get back in there, I can tell you.  In fact there could be an angle here – local boy returns to his favorite water after 30 years – hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm – pay my way out and I’ll talk to my agent;-).  After we’re done filming, we’ll ditch the camera ops and I’ll take you over to the White. And I’d love to see your show. </chaz

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This is a copy of a press release about a Wisconsin fishing program in current production.  If you have stories or if you know great story tellers, we’d like to see and hear it.  Get your hands on a video camera and follow the instructions below.  Thanks.   xxx :-  xxx :-  xxx :-  xxx :-  xxx :-  xxx :-  xxx :-  xxx :- xxx :-  xxx :-  

FISH TALES SOUGHT FOR Wisconsin Public Television SPECIAL         It’s been said that every angler has a great story to tell, and Wisconsin Public Television wants to hear yours!         WPT is preparing a special on fishing in Wisconsin that will air in August 1999.  As part of the effort, we’re seeking fish stories from anglers all over Wisconsin.         "We’re looking for all kinds of tales," says producer JoAnne Garrett. "Not just the stories about the biggest fish or the longest struggle, although we’d like those, too.  We also want to hear about how fishing helped form family bonds and family memories, stories about fishing that touch the heart."         Tale spinners with humorous stories also are sought.         Stories should be documented on VHS tape with a video camera.  Send tapes to: Fish Tales, c/o JoAnne Garrett, Wisconsin Public Television, 821 University Ave., Madison WI 53706.  Deadline is Sept. 1.  If you want your tape returned, please enclose a self-addressed, stamped envelope. Jon Miskowski Wisconsin Public Television

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Question:

Will be there in December.  Any recommendations re: guides, flies or locations would be appreciated.

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Will be there in December.  Any recommendations re: guides, flies or locations would be appreciated.

i was there on my honeymoon in 94…one day of bonefishing w/ a guide named Nacho..nice fellow..booked him through my hotel.  fished the north end of the island…caught mostly small bones, but i did cast to a couple that might have gone 5 lbs. used a local pattern…green red and gold, crazy-charlie type, size 6. area was very pretty…isolated mangrove flats…never saw another angler all day. good luck

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Question:

If you leave them outside in a worm box, watch out for ants, they will go for the dead ones and really take over the whole box. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why your yard ? Wait till the rain falls and the temp. is about 54-56 deg. Go out in a neighborhood that doesn’t have curbs and pick them up off the street NEAR the edge of the grass. Put them in the fridge (about 45-50 deg.) in a container of damp (use rain water)buss bedding (wal-mart) and they will keep for weeks.(pick out the dead ones once in a while)..Enjoy                                                                       SuqRivGui                                                       Allen

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got a old crank telephone and some wire and a couple of long rods???…use your imagination and wear rubber boots and gloves.be sure to go when it is wet .  they can jump about 2-3′ so cath them in a bucket as they fall.  no mess. It also help to read any storey about Mark Twain to them exactually 34 minutes before cranking the phone..  

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I have heard of a few things to gather earthworms. {snip} Oh, there is one more way.  Lay in the yard and make a sound like an apple.

EXCELLENT!!!! Seriously, I can’t stop laughing!!! Remember: a bad day of fishing is better than a good day at work!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Once you have gone fishing, put the extra worms in a flower bed, or in your garden.  They will help the soil, and soon, you will have a reliable source of wigglies.  Don’t poison them with insecticides of fertilizer, though. Steve, the DsrtTravlr

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try a 5 gallon bucket of soapy water on damp ground that you know contains crawlers 10–15 minutes should have all you need.

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conesus lake (finger lakes region) $500/week see http://members.aol.com/cobbshill/cottage.html for details http://members.aol.com/cobbshill

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At dusk just put the sprinkler on in the front yard,  let it run for an hour or two, until the ground is soaked.  After dark turn it off, get your flashlight and pail and go pick them up.  Because of the water in the ground they will be lying right on top.  It works like a charm in my yard although it is kinda of a muddy procedure.  Good luck.. Lorry…….I fish, therefore I am

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I am really intersted in trying to catch my own nite crawlers in my yard.  I’ve heard of sticking a pitch fork in the ground and wiggling it, watering the lawn, and a lot of other things, but from your personell experiences, what is the best way to get them?  Oh yeah, what is a GRUNT WORM?  Are they in Michigan or what?  And one more thing, besides this one, what is another good fishing newsgroup?  Thanks so much, talk to you later!

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I am really intersted in trying to catch my own nite crawlers in my yard.  I’ve heard of sticking a pitch fork in the ground and wiggling it, watering the lawn, and a lot of other things, but from your personell experiences, what is the best way to get them?  Oh yeah, what is a GRUNT WORM?  Are they in Michigan or what?  And one more thing, besides this one, what is another good fishing newsgroup?  Thanks so much, talk to you later!

Hi Matt, If you have them in your yard it won’t be hard. Some people use electricity to get them out, but it can be a little dangerous. We went out at night with a can or bag and a little flashlight in our mouth on our hands and knees. You would see the night crawlers shin and then just grab them. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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I am really intersted in trying to catch my own nite crawlers in my yard.  I’ve heard of sticking a pitch fork in the ground and wiggling it, watering the lawn, and a lot of other things, but from your personell experiences, what is the best way to get them?  Oh yeah, what is a GRUNT WORM?  Are they in Michigan or what?  And one more thing, besides this one, what is another good fishing newsgroup?  Thanks so much, talk to you later!

I always liked catching night crawlers in Upstate Ny.  The night dew would usually bring them out.  You can find them just about everywhere, especially in gardens and flower beds. Alos, you need to wear sneakers and walk very lightly.  When you grab one, do not pull too hard or it will break off.  I first just stop it from going back in, and then pull gently straight up or at the angle of the hole.  Usually can get about 12 dozen in about 2 hours.   You can keep them easily enough, too.  We would buy the worm bedding, or mix some dirt with moist dead leaves.  Keep them in a large container in the basement where it is always cool and damp.  They’ll keep all summer, and will even reproduce. Good hunting, Joe

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I have heard of a few things to gather earthworms. One is electricity.  It is hazardous. Alternating current worm getters were sold, and then recalled when people ended up laying in the grass and writhing along with the worms.  I have heard that the current from a battery charger will work.  With any electricity, you have to be very careful.   Grunting for worms is when you take two thin pieces of wood about 2-3 feet long.  Originally, they used two barrel staves.  One was held with one hand pushing it down into the ground.  The other stave was raked across the one in the ground with a violin bow motion making a "grunting" noise. The frequency of the sounds would cause the worms to become uncomfortable, and they would come to the surface.   I have also heard that spraying a light bleach solution on grass makes them come out.  Don’t know what it does to the yard. I think that the time of day has a lot to do with gathering worms, with the evening and very early morning hours being the best.  I have had good success after a rain, too.   Oh, there is one more way.  Lay in the yard and make a sound like an apple. Once you have gone fishing, put the extra worms in a flower bed, or in your garden.  They will help the soil, and soon, you will have a reliable source of wigglies.  Don’t poison them with insecticides of fertilizer, though. Steve, the DsrtTravlr

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I am really intersted in trying to catch my own nite crawlers in my yard. —  Thanks so much, talk to you later!

Find and get a product called "Worm-Up"  Believe me this stuff really works, is harmless both to the worms and your yard and you’ll get all the "Dew Worms" (which is what your "nite crawler" is usually called in Ontario!!!) that you’ll ever need!! Just follow the package instructions and you can pick ‘em up right  off the top of the ground, in broad daylight!!!!  Even in places where you’d never expect to find ‘em, like an asphalt driveway, maybe? I don’t have any commercial interest in this product, but I got a sample package at the "Canadian Sportsman Show" many years ago and when I found it really worked I went and bought some more! "Le Baron’s" always carries it in Canada, anyway. Phil

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Why your yard ? Wait till the rain falls and the temp. is about 54-56 deg. Go out in a neighborhood that doesn’t have curbs and pick them up off the street NEAR the edge of the grass. Put them in the fridge (about 45-50 deg.) in a container of damp (use rain water)buss bedding (wal-mart) and they will keep for weeks.(pick out the dead ones once in a while)..Enjoy                                                                       SuqRivGui                                                       Allen

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Question:

Time for a mini-survey. How many folks have problems with the high-strength leader materials curling near the fly in temperatures above 60 deg. I have tried different knots, Uni, Pitzen, as well as the standard clinch and I get a little curl next to the fly no matter what. All knots need to be cinched up and this stuff curls wherever the knot runs; sensitive to even minimum heat generation?!. I’ve noticed the problem disappears below approx. 60 deg. Lubrication (spit) is no solution. Haven’t tried dishwashing liquid, has anyone? Paul Marriner

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Time for a mini-survey. How many folks have problems with the high-strength leader materials curling near the fly in temperatures above 60 deg. I have tried different knots, Uni, Pitzen, as well as the standard clinch and I get a little curl next to the fly no matter what. All knots need to be cinched up and this stuff curls wherever the knot runs; sensitive to even minimum heat generation?!. I’ve noticed the problem disappears below approx. 60 deg. Lubrication (spit) is no solution. Haven’t tried dishwashing liquid, has anyone? Paul Marriner

Hi Paul, I’ve noticed the same thing before. This season I bought a bottle of stuff called "knot + formula." The problem disappeared and, I broke off fewer flies.

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Time for a mini-survey. How many folks have problems with the high-strength leader materials curling near the fly in temperatures above 60 deg. I have tried different knots, Uni, Pitzen, as well as the standard clinch and I get a little curl next to the fly no matter what. All knots need to be cinched up and this stuff curls wherever the knot runs; sensitive to even minimum heat generation?!. I’ve noticed the problem disappears below approx. 60 deg. Lubrication (spit) is no solution. Haven’t tried dishwashing liquid, has anyone? Paul Marriner

Hi, Paul: There’s no question leader curl can be a problem with the hi-tech leader materials available today.  I use Dai-Riki Velvet almost exclusively and have found it to curl the least of any other material I’ve used.  I use two knots, a clinch (NOT IMPROVED CLINCH) and a Duncan Loop th attach my flies to my tippet.  I know, many will say I’m either a raw beginner or haven’t spent any time dealing with a fish on the business end of my leader when I say I sincerely believe that, for the average fly fisher pursuing trout, there’s no need for an improved clinch knot.  However, when the knot is pulled snug – not tight – against the eye of the hook the tag end must be pulled tight. Follow this by pulling slowly, but firmly, on the tippet directly above the eye of the hook.  I’ve managed to all but eliminate leader curl using this method, at least when  I secure a fly to the end of my tippet.  And, I have used it on a few thousand trout over the past several years. I still seem to be plagued with some leader curl after I’ve hooked and played a few fish.  I attribute this to excessive stress on the tippet just above the fly.  Any leader curl is unacceptable near the fly when fishing a dry fly,  especially a size 16 or smaller.  This is where a Duncan Loop can provide a real advantage.  With the fly able to move around the fly will alight on the surface and ride upright (assuming the fly is properly balanced). So much for my rambling.  I’ll be curious to learn what others experience, too. Dave Rothrock

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After two decades+ of tying leaders for both fresh and saltwater fly fishing, I’ve pretty much standardized on tippets made from Maxima or Ande … usually no curl, even with a wide variety of knots and flies. For shock tippets I use presoaked and straightened Ande or Mason. Bob Elliott

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I’ve pretty much standardized on tippets made from Maxima or Ande  Elliott         Amen on Maxima. Since switching to Maxima tippets I haven’t–knock on wood!–lost a single fish to a broken tippet. Not Atlantic salmon in fast water, not saltwater fish, and certainly not trout or bass. I’m not sure Maxima is the very best tippet for dry flies on, say, 7X or 8X, but I always use it down to 5X, and often 6X.         Use a micrometer on your Ande, and you will discover it’s actually a heavier test line rated low–hence its reputation for strength and abrasion resistance. Mason is hard to top for shock leaders.         Sorry, Paul Marriner, this isn’t addressing your curl question. My only curl problems happen when a hastily mistied improved clinch slips and breaks, leaving me a curly-Q at the end. That’s why I nearly always use Uni-knots and Palomars to tie on flies. — Gary A. Soucie – writer, editor, angler TEL 1-301-322-8373;  FAX 1-301-322-4329 3007 Crest Ave., Cheverly, MD 20785 USA

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After two decades+ of tying leaders for both fresh and saltwater fly fishing, I’ve pretty much standardized on tippets made from Maxima or Ande … usually no curl, even with a wide variety of knots and flies. For shock tippets I use presoaked and straightened Ande or Mason. Bob Elliott After two decades+ of tying leaders for both fresh and saltwater fly fishing, I’ve pretty much standardized on tippets made from Maxima or Ande … usually no curl, even with a wide variety of knots and flies. For shock tippets I use presoaked and straightened Ande or Mason. Bob Elliott

Hi Elliott, After years of using Maxima and very happy with it I’m glad to see another person who likes it. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/expo/specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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Question:

If you fish, boat, camp, hunt or anything to do with the great

outdoors and have friends that do the same, why not start your  OWN business with little or know cost to you? < The IRS does make a distinction between a hobby business and a real business. You may be asked to demonstrate that it is a real business and not just supporting your hobby. Just because you have the legal paperwork that shows it to be a "business" doesn’t mean that the IRS has to accept it. The small tax savings will be more than offset by the cost of an audit. You are just making yourself a target.

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My name in Norm Larsen and I’d like to tell you a fishing story!! A couple of week ago a friend of mine came to me and asked me if I fished, I said sure I fish, why? Well he said: " if I could show you how you can deduct your fishing, camping, boating and hunting expenses from your income tax AND earn an income would you like to here about it? That was a no-brainer  for me, so I asked him to show it to me. He proceeded to show me of the most  interesting companies I had ever seen, The companies called Champion Fishing    Co.  based out of  Texas. They have a 197 page catalog that is full of outdoor  equipment. All name brand gear like Mitchell, Fenwick, Remmington etc. By October of this year they’ll have golfing, mountain bike and organized sporting equipment too!! I thought it made since to buy my gear from myself than from someone else! They have the simplest compensation plans I have ever seen too! There’s no start-up fees, no inventory, no quota’s , no organizational  tracking and no weekend deliveries!! Everything is shipped direct to the buyer. The recreational fishing industry is a $69.4 BILLION dollar a year business with 60 million people. That doesn’t include the Pro- Fishing industry, boating, camping or hunting!! Champion Fishing Co. has been growing at a fantastic rate. The number of reps has tripled since last October. Some states only have a few reps so were talking ground floor, "once in a life time opportunity"! If you fish, boat, camp, hunt or anything to do with the great outdoors and have friends that do the same, why not start your  OWN business with little or know cost to you? If would like more info on this program, please contact me by return email with your address and I’ll send you some info. If you give me your phone number I’ll call you a week or so after I send to answer any questions you may have. Sincerely, Norm Larsen

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