Question:

The raising of children cannot be delegated to day-care, nannies and the boob-tube.  It requires constant attention and care.  The economic reality for many families these days is that both parents work.  It is indeed a complex and difficult problem.

    It is a problem that is difficult and not a single simple answer will do. Are the parents or the child to blame? In some cases the parents are to blame but, not in all, there are cases where the kids are plain rebellious and the parents are wonderful.      It is a sad state of affairs that the TV or video games are the surrogate parents. Many homes where there is two parents consist of both of them working long hours to provide extra. I also understand where some families choose to have a little less extras and have a parent around during the children’s years at home. I guess it breaks down to what is the most important.     Thanks I will step off the box and get back into the background.. D.S.

Response:

   I really do feel sorry for the parents though because kids these days dont talk with parents like they used to. I honestly think it would be fair

I don’t believe that it is the kids that are the cause of this… -Eric

Response:

The raising of children cannot be delegated to day-care, nannies and the boob-tube.  It requires constant attention and care.  The economic reality for many families these days is that both parents work.  It is indeed a complex and difficult problem.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    I really do feel sorry for the parents though because kids these days dont talk with parents like they used to. I honestly think it would be fair I don’t believe that it is the kids that are the cause of this… -Eric

Response:

Why?  Because one kid broke a couple windows with an airplane? Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Raise the minimum age for getting PPL to 21. Personally, I have been very happy with the teens I have seen flying. Most of them are earnest types who work very hard. I have a tough time picturing any of the teens that I have instructed doing any of the crazy stunts you hear about. Nevertheless, I fear that Rick Cremer is correct in predicting that there will be stricter age limits on learning to fly. It will be a sad day when these are enacted. I might not have as much sympathy for the parents as you, however. Did these people not have a clue that their kid was a UBL fan? What kind of parents were they? What kinds of values were they teaching their son, anyway? And if he was rejecting reasonable standards and values, why the heck were they letting him take flying lessons? | Ok the deal is everyone needs to get along and stop arguing. The bottom line | is one person screwed up and now everyone is disagreeing. The same thing | happened sept 11th, the only difference is we all agreed because we all | wanted to fly, now the adults don’t care what happens to the kids because | the adults aren’t at risk here. | | -one kid screwed up, he’s an idiot, that’s the bottom line. Sure he may have | had problems but he’s screwed us all over and no I don’t care that he died | and no im not being immature by not caring. While I really dont care about | him I do feel sorry for his parents, I cant imagine my parents if I did | something like that. Suicide is not the answer to solving your problems. I’m | not the problem here, I don’t make fun of people, I don’t put people down | (unless they start it), I talk to anyone no matter what others think. I give | everyone a fair chance no matter what others think until they give me a | reason to do otherwise. Now if everyone would do the same this may not have | happened. | -Some teens are mature (I would say most teens that fly are, at least it | shows they have the devotion to do something) and some teens are immature. | -Some adults are mature, some are immature. | -sure they can raise the soloing age to 21 or even 21 before you start | training but what happens when some 40 y/o man does the same thing? | -We all need to stick together because we are all at risk for losing what we | love. | -The best thing to do is hope that this time next year the media is focused | on some other pointless topic such as high school sports games! | -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in | this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how | people think I shouldnt be flying. | | |

Response:

It’s on-going, and please don’t attack me, as it would appear most are getting attacked when they voice their opinions now…

We’re with you, Casey.  As a teenage pilot, you’re living the dream I had to wait another 20 years to achieve, and I tip my hat to you. This isn’t an age thing — it’s a mental health issue, and should be treated as such. — Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Warrior N33431

Response:

    I really do feel sorry for the parents though because kids these days dont talk with parents like they used to. I honestly think it would be fair to say my parents are great parents yet if I was to do something like this they would never know until its to late. My parents love me, care about me, and are great but I still, along with most teens, try to push them away. When they talk to me I dont want to talk to them, its none of their business, etc. Not only that but most parents have nothing in common with their kids. For instance my dad likes baseball cards, being outside, and fishing. My mom likes dolls, shopping, and being outside. I like computers and flying. I hate doing everything they do and they pretty much hate everything I do except my mom will fly occasionally. Sure I try to do what they like to do sometimes to make them happy, after all they are my parents and Im their last "baby" and soon ill be leaving home to. When I get home I eat and goto my room and come out when its time to leave, its the way kids do. I personally think the parents are still great parents for not knowing, it shows they trusted their kid. Unfortunatly this kid couldnt be trusted and I dont know the family history, only what ive heard. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personally, I have been very happy with the teens I have seen flying. Most of them are earnest types who work very hard. I have a tough time picturing any of the teens that I have instructed doing any of the crazy stunts you hear about. Nevertheless, I fear that Rick Cremer is correct in predicting that there will be stricter age limits on learning to fly. It will be a sad day when these are enacted. I might not have as much sympathy for the parents as you, however. Did these people not have a clue that their kid was a UBL fan? What kind of parents were they? What kinds of values were they teaching their son, anyway? And if he was rejecting reasonable standards and values, why the heck were they letting him take flying lessons? | Ok the deal is everyone needs to get along and stop arguing. The bottom line | is one person screwed up and now everyone is disagreeing. The same thing | happened sept 11th, the only difference is we all agreed because we all | wanted to fly, now the adults don’t care what happens to the kids because | the adults aren’t at risk here. | | -one kid screwed up, he’s an idiot, that’s the bottom line. Sure he may have | had problems but he’s screwed us all over and no I don’t care that he died | and no im not being immature by not caring. While I really dont care about | him I do feel sorry for his parents, I cant imagine my parents if I did | something like that. Suicide is not the answer to solving your problems. I’m | not the problem here, I don’t make fun of people, I don’t put people down | (unless they start it), I talk to anyone no matter what others think. I give | everyone a fair chance no matter what others think until they give me a | reason to do otherwise. Now if everyone would do the same this may not have | happened. | -Some teens are mature (I would say most teens that fly are, at least it | shows they have the devotion to do something) and some teens are immature. | -Some adults are mature, some are immature. | -sure they can raise the soloing age to 21 or even 21 before you start | training but what happens when some 40 y/o man does the same thing? | -We all need to stick together because we are all at risk for losing what we | love. | -The best thing to do is hope that this time next year the media is focused | on some other pointless topic such as high school sports games! | -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in | this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how | people think I shouldnt be flying. | | |

Response:

I feel it man, I feel it…Flying is all I have (well other than my semi-good looks ) -J

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just my opinion, and I support everything said by CJ in this thread… I am 17 and a pilot like Zach. If my right to fly was taken away, I would probably just sit at home and have nothing to do. You see, flying has GIVEN me my maturity… it has shown me how to be responsible with earning every dime it takes to fly (I work at a grocery store) and also the responsibility in the air. For us teens that do take flying very seriously, we’re just as good as the 40 y/o pilot. It’s sad that this kid died, but that’s no reason to take away my right to fly and share my dream with others. Last year, 4 of my friends died in a car accident. Should I not be able to drive? It’s on-going, and please don’t attack me, as it would appear most are getting attacked when they voice their opinions now… Clear Skies- Casey Hansen Iowa, USA PP-ASEL   -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how people think I shouldnt be flying. Take it easy, Zach; the regulars know you’re alright. Ignore the trollers. — Dan N9387D at BFM

Response:

Ironic coincidence is that one of the recent issues of AOPA Pilot (the one with the 2001 Bonanza on the cover) shows a 16 year old CAP cadet shaking hands with her instructor after soloing both gliders and a 172 on her 16th birthday. David Reinhart – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does that mean that my daughter shouldn’t be able to get her glider pilot license or that air cadet’s should be abolished? Sounds like a politicians knee jerk reaction to me. I think that 15 year old kids shouldn’t be allowed to fly airplanes into buildings and that we as a society should take "reasonable" precautions to prevent it from happening. Enough said. Willy Raise the minimum age for getting PPL to 21. Personally, I have been very happy with the teens I have seen flying. Most of them are earnest types who work very hard. I have a tough time picturing any of the teens that I have instructed doing any of the crazy stunts you hear about. Nevertheless, I fear that Rick Cremer is correct in predicting that there will be stricter age limits on learning to fly. It will be a sad day when these are enacted. I might not have as much sympathy for the parents as you, however. Did these people not have a clue that their kid was a UBL fan? What kind of parents were they? What kinds of values were they teaching their son, anyway? And if he was rejecting reasonable standards and values, why the heck were they letting him take flying lessons? | Ok the deal is everyone needs to get along and stop arguing. The bottom line | is one person screwed up and now everyone is disagreeing. The same thing | happened sept 11th, the only difference is we all agreed because we all | wanted to fly, now the adults don’t care what happens to the kids because | the adults aren’t at risk here. | | -one kid screwed up, he’s an idiot, that’s the bottom line. Sure he may have | had problems but he’s screwed us all over and no I don’t care that he died | and no im not being immature by not caring. While I really dont care about | him I do feel sorry for his parents, I cant imagine my parents if I did | something like that. Suicide is not the answer to solving your problems. I’m | not the problem here, I don’t make fun of people, I don’t put people down | (unless they start it), I talk to anyone no matter what others think. I give | everyone a fair chance no matter what others think until they give me a | reason to do otherwise. Now if everyone would do the same this may not have | happened. | -Some teens are mature (I would say most teens that fly are, at least it | shows they have the devotion to do something) and some teens are immature. | -Some adults are mature, some are immature. | -sure they can raise the soloing age to 21 or even 21 before you start | training but what happens when some 40 y/o man does the same thing? | -We all need to stick together because we are all at risk for losing what we | love. | -The best thing to do is hope that this time next year the media is focused | on some other pointless topic such as high school sports games! | -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in | this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how | people think I shouldnt be flying. | | |

Response:

Does that mean that my daughter shouldn’t be able to get her glider pilot license or that air cadet’s should be abolished? Sounds like a politicians knee jerk reaction to me. I think that 15 year old kids shouldn’t be allowed to fly airplanes into buildings and that we as a society should take "reasonable" precautions to prevent it from happening. Enough said. Willy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Raise the minimum age for getting PPL to 21. Personally, I have been very happy with the teens I have seen flying. Most of them are earnest types who work very hard. I have a tough time picturing any of the teens that I have instructed doing any of the crazy stunts you hear about. Nevertheless, I fear that Rick Cremer is correct in predicting that there will be stricter age limits on learning to fly. It will be a sad day when these are enacted. I might not have as much sympathy for the parents as you, however. Did these people not have a clue that their kid was a UBL fan? What kind of parents were they? What kinds of values were they teaching their son, anyway? And if he was rejecting reasonable standards and values, why the heck were they letting him take flying lessons? | Ok the deal is everyone needs to get along and stop arguing. The bottom line | is one person screwed up and now everyone is disagreeing. The same thing | happened sept 11th, the only difference is we all agreed because we all | wanted to fly, now the adults don’t care what happens to the kids because | the adults aren’t at risk here. | | -one kid screwed up, he’s an idiot, that’s the bottom line. Sure he may have | had problems but he’s screwed us all over and no I don’t care that he died | and no im not being immature by not caring. While I really dont care about | him I do feel sorry for his parents, I cant imagine my parents if I did | something like that. Suicide is not the answer to solving your problems. I’m | not the problem here, I don’t make fun of people, I don’t put people down | (unless they start it), I talk to anyone no matter what others think. I give | everyone a fair chance no matter what others think until they give me a | reason to do otherwise. Now if everyone would do the same this may not have | happened. | -Some teens are mature (I would say most teens that fly are, at least it | shows they have the devotion to do something) and some teens are immature. | -Some adults are mature, some are immature. | -sure they can raise the soloing age to 21 or even 21 before you start | training but what happens when some 40 y/o man does the same thing? | -We all need to stick together because we are all at risk for losing what we | love. | -The best thing to do is hope that this time next year the media is focused | on some other pointless topic such as high school sports games! | -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in | this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how | people think I shouldnt be flying. | | |

Response:

Just my opinion, and I support everything said by CJ in this thread… I am 17 and a pilot like Zach. If my right to fly was taken away, I would probably just sit at home and have nothing to do. You see, flying has GIVEN me my maturity… it has shown me how to be responsible with earning every dime it takes to fly (I work at a grocery store) and also the responsibility in the air. For us teens that do take flying very seriously, we’re just as good as the 40 y/o pilot. It’s sad that this kid died, but that’s no reason to take away my right to fly and share my dream with others. Last year, 4 of my friends died in a car accident. Should I not be able to drive? It’s on-going, and please don’t attack me, as it would appear most are getting attacked when they voice their opinions now… Clear Skies- Casey Hansen Iowa, USA PP-ASEL

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how people think I shouldnt be flying. Take it easy, Zach; the regulars know you’re alright. Ignore the trollers. — Dan N9387D at BFM

Response:

Why, because one goofball killed himself?  What about all the goofballs of all ages that kill themselves in cars everyday?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Raise the minimum age for getting PPL to 21. Personally, I have been very happy with the teens I have seen flying. Most of them are earnest types who work very hard. I have a tough time picturing any of the teens that I have instructed doing any of the crazy stunts you hear about. Nevertheless, I fear that Rick Cremer is correct in predicting that there will be stricter age limits on learning to fly. It will be a sad day when these are enacted. I might not have as much sympathy for the parents as you, however. Did these people not have a clue that their kid was a UBL fan? What kind of parents were they? What kinds of values were they teaching their son, anyway? And if he was rejecting reasonable standards and values, why the heck were they letting him take flying lessons? | Ok the deal is everyone needs to get along and stop arguing. The bottom line | is one person screwed up and now everyone is disagreeing. The same thing | happened sept 11th, the only difference is we all agreed because we all | wanted to fly, now the adults don’t care what happens to the kids because | the adults aren’t at risk here. | | -one kid screwed up, he’s an idiot, that’s the bottom line. Sure he may have | had problems but he’s screwed us all over and no I don’t care that he died | and no im not being immature by not caring. While I really dont care about | him I do feel sorry for his parents, I cant imagine my parents if I did | something like that. Suicide is not the answer to solving your problems. I’m | not the problem here, I don’t make fun of people, I don’t put people down | (unless they start it), I talk to anyone no matter what others think. I give | everyone a fair chance no matter what others think until they give me a | reason to do otherwise. Now if everyone would do the same this may not have | happened. | -Some teens are mature (I would say most teens that fly are, at least it | shows they have the devotion to do something) and some teens are immature. | -Some adults are mature, some are immature. | -sure they can raise the soloing age to 21 or even 21 before you start | training but what happens when some 40 y/o man does the same thing? | -We all need to stick together because we are all at risk for losing what we | love. | -The best thing to do is hope that this time next year the media is focused | on some other pointless topic such as high school sports games! | -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in | this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how | people think I shouldnt be flying. | | |

Response:

I agree… -J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personally, I have been very happy with the teens I have seen flying. Most of them are earnest types who work very hard. I have a tough time picturing any of the teens that I have instructed doing any of the crazy stunts you hear about. Nevertheless, I fear that Rick Cremer is correct in predicting that there will be stricter age limits on learning to fly. It will be a sad day when these are enacted. I might not have as much sympathy for the parents as you, however. Did these people not have a clue that their kid was a UBL fan? What kind of parents were they? What kinds of values were they teaching their son, anyway? And if he was rejecting reasonable standards and values, why the heck were they letting him take flying lessons? | Ok the deal is everyone needs to get along and stop arguing. The bottom line | is one person screwed up and now everyone is disagreeing. The same thing | happened sept 11th, the only difference is we all agreed because we all | wanted to fly, now the adults don’t care what happens to the kids because | the adults aren’t at risk here. | | -one kid screwed up, he’s an idiot, that’s the bottom line. Sure he may have | had problems but he’s screwed us all over and no I don’t care that he died | and no im not being immature by not caring. While I really dont care about | him I do feel sorry for his parents, I cant imagine my parents if I did | something like that. Suicide is not the answer to solving your problems. I’m | not the problem here, I don’t make fun of people, I don’t put people down | (unless they start it), I talk to anyone no matter what others think. I give | everyone a fair chance no matter what others think until they give me a | reason to do otherwise. Now if everyone would do the same this may not have | happened. | -Some teens are mature (I would say most teens that fly are, at least it | shows they have the devotion to do something) and some teens are immature. | -Some adults are mature, some are immature. | -sure they can raise the soloing age to 21 or even 21 before you start | training but what happens when some 40 y/o man does the same thing? | -We all need to stick together because we are all at risk for losing what we | love. | -The best thing to do is hope that this time next year the media is focused | on some other pointless topic such as high school sports games! | -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in | this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how | people think I shouldnt be flying. | | |

Response:

  -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how people think I shouldnt be flying.

Take it easy, Zach; the regulars know you’re alright. Ignore the trollers. — Dan N9387D at BFM

Response:

Raise the minimum age for getting PPL to 21. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personally, I have been very happy with the teens I have seen flying. Most of them are earnest types who work very hard. I have a tough time picturing any of the teens that I have instructed doing any of the crazy stunts you hear about. Nevertheless, I fear that Rick Cremer is correct in predicting that there will be stricter age limits on learning to fly. It will be a sad day when these are enacted. I might not have as much sympathy for the parents as you, however. Did these people not have a clue that their kid was a UBL fan? What kind of parents were they? What kinds of values were they teaching their son, anyway? And if he was rejecting reasonable standards and values, why the heck were they letting him take flying lessons? | Ok the deal is everyone needs to get along and stop arguing. The bottom line | is one person screwed up and now everyone is disagreeing. The same thing | happened sept 11th, the only difference is we all agreed because we all | wanted to fly, now the adults don’t care what happens to the kids because | the adults aren’t at risk here. | | -one kid screwed up, he’s an idiot, that’s the bottom line. Sure he may have | had problems but he’s screwed us all over and no I don’t care that he died | and no im not being immature by not caring. While I really dont care about | him I do feel sorry for his parents, I cant imagine my parents if I did | something like that. Suicide is not the answer to solving your problems. I’m | not the problem here, I don’t make fun of people, I don’t put people down | (unless they start it), I talk to anyone no matter what others think. I give | everyone a fair chance no matter what others think until they give me a | reason to do otherwise. Now if everyone would do the same this may not have | happened. | -Some teens are mature (I would say most teens that fly are, at least it | shows they have the devotion to do something) and some teens are immature. | -Some adults are mature, some are immature. | -sure they can raise the soloing age to 21 or even 21 before you start | training but what happens when some 40 y/o man does the same thing? | -We all need to stick together because we are all at risk for losing what we | love. | -The best thing to do is hope that this time next year the media is focused | on some other pointless topic such as high school sports games! | -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in | this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how | people think I shouldnt be flying. | | |

Response:

Personally, I have been very happy with the teens I have seen flying. Most of them are earnest types who work very hard. I have a tough time picturing any of the teens that I have instructed doing any of the crazy stunts you hear about. Nevertheless, I fear that Rick Cremer is correct in predicting that there will be stricter age limits on learning to fly. It will be a sad day when these are enacted. I might not have as much sympathy for the parents as you, however. Did these people not have a clue that their kid was a UBL fan? What kind of parents were they? What kinds of values were they teaching their son, anyway? And if he was rejecting reasonable standards and values, why the heck were they letting him take flying lessons?

| Ok the deal is everyone needs to get along and stop arguing. The bottom line | is one person screwed up and now everyone is disagreeing. The same thing | happened sept 11th, the only difference is we all agreed because we all | wanted to fly, now the adults don’t care what happens to the kids because | the adults aren’t at risk here. | | -one kid screwed up, he’s an idiot, that’s the bottom line. Sure he may have | had problems but he’s screwed us all over and no I don’t care that he died | and no im not being immature by not caring. While I really dont care about | him I do feel sorry for his parents, I cant imagine my parents if I did | something like that. Suicide is not the answer to solving your problems. I’m | not the problem here, I don’t make fun of people, I don’t put people down | (unless they start it), I talk to anyone no matter what others think. I give | everyone a fair chance no matter what others think until they give me a | reason to do otherwise. Now if everyone would do the same this may not have | happened. | -Some teens are mature (I would say most teens that fly are, at least it | shows they have the devotion to do something) and some teens are immature. | -Some adults are mature, some are immature. | -sure they can raise the soloing age to 21 or even 21 before you start | training but what happens when some 40 y/o man does the same thing? | -We all need to stick together because we are all at risk for losing what we | love. | -The best thing to do is hope that this time next year the media is focused | on some other pointless topic such as high school sports games! | -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in | this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how | people think I shouldnt be flying. | | |

Response:

Ok the deal is everyone needs to get along and stop arguing. The bottom line is one person screwed up and now everyone is disagreeing. The same thing happened sept 11th, the only difference is we all agreed because we all wanted to fly, now the adults don’t care what happens to the kids because the adults aren’t at risk here. -one kid screwed up, he’s an idiot, that’s the bottom line. Sure he may have had problems but he’s screwed us all over and no I don’t care that he died and no im not being immature by not caring. While I really dont care about him I do feel sorry for his parents, I cant imagine my parents if I did something like that. Suicide is not the answer to solving your problems. I’m not the problem here, I don’t make fun of people, I don’t put people down (unless they start it), I talk to anyone no matter what others think. I give everyone a fair chance no matter what others think until they give me a reason to do otherwise. Now if everyone would do the same this may not have happened. -Some teens are mature (I would say most teens that fly are, at least it shows they have the devotion to do something) and some teens are immature. -Some adults are mature, some are immature. -sure they can raise the soloing age to 21 or even 21 before you start training but what happens when some 40 y/o man does the same thing? -We all need to stick together because we are all at risk for losing what we love. -The best thing to do is hope that this time next year the media is focused on some other pointless topic such as high school sports games! -Dont make me feel like im not wanted here, I love reading the topics in this group and love posting my questions but I dont like reading about how people think I shouldnt be flying.

Response:

Question:

"A-Sad-Eye" wrote… Walt…how much would it take to open up a fly shop?….NC is the first place I have ever been that made me think twice about retiring in South America…

Did I read that right?? Norht Carolina = South America? That explains why I can’t understand anyone when I go through a drive-up window. <g John, it sounds like you’re in for a long month. –Steve

Response:

"A-Sad-Eye" wrote… NC is the first place I have ever been that made me think twice about retiring in South America… Did I read that right??

No. Try again and this time parse it like John already intends to retire near his wife’s home in South America. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Thanks for the analysis re these hazards to graphite rods.  Makes sense.  However, most non-purist ffers are not going to stop fishing nymphs, which have to be weighted by some method, whether beadheads, lead wrap, or split shot. To the extent possible we have to avoid banging our rod tip when casting, by refining or modifying our casting technique. Casting with a more open loop works for me. PatK – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hooks are bad enough on graphite tips but bead heads and lead weighted nymphs are worse.  As many of the modern gentry use space age gadgets to tie their flies with, they snap more and more graphite tips because the bead head flies smack at high velocity against the graphite rod tips nicking them.  Oh, they may not snap right away, or next week or the next day but they  will snap soon enough. Nicking graphite is exactly like scratching a pane of glass. Apply the pressure at just the right spot and the glass follows the scratch longitude.  The cross section loads on a tip that is only 3/32 more or less in diameter has Pound Per Inch loads on the cross section that can exceed 185,000 – 250,000 psi at any given time.  Put one imperfection into that circumference and you will have a fiber explosion that can sound like a small bolt of lightening when she pops!  Anyone that sends a graphite tip back to a manufacturer  that has snapped but who has fished Bead Heads with it, are not being fair to the companies that make them.  Frankly, I don’t think any Graphite Fly Rod Company today realizes this fact regarding why they are getting so many fly rods back with broken tips. Frankly, fly fishing to me means "All’s Fair With Fur or Feather," just as in upland hunting over a nice brace of Llewellyn Setters.  But it isn’t fair when fly fishermen are beating perfectly made fly rod tips with Brass, Metal or Lead Bead Heads other than normal hook hazards which is bad enough as it is, breaking them and then claiming foul. The extra glitter most get with bead heads is the same as fishing with pistol petes and calling it fly fishing, I suppose.  A little mix of the spinning world into fly fishing is the rogue these days and still claiming its fly fishing in the purist sense of the word. Well, it may be fly fishing but it isn’t pure to the traditions of old. It is compromises in order to take advantage using ingenious methods. The array of glittering materials have seen a huge explosion such as crystal hair, etc.  But Flashabou or Crystal Hair doesn’t smash against the rod tips like bird shot like items do, damaging the fly rods to certain ruin, sooner or later. I think it is only fair that we all consider being absolutely fair with fly rod companies turning out excellent products.  "Well, I slammed the car door on it and it broke," is the complaint and if the fly rod company doesn’t replace it for free . . . oh my! This is why I never use bead head flies and/or nymphs.  At least, not yet I haven’t.  It just doesn’t hold the magic for me as it does for others.  I guess it all depends upon which generation you learned to fly fish in. I have no regrets. Mr. G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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Response:

Hooks are bad enough on graphite tips but bead heads and lead weighted nymphs are worse.  As many of the modern gentry use space age gadgets to tie their flies with, they snap more and more graphite tips because the bead head flies smack at high velocity against the graphite rod tips nicking them.  Oh, they may not snap right away, or next week or the next day but they  will snap soon enough. Nicking graphite is exactly like scratching a pane of glass.  Apply the pressure at just the right spot and the glass follows the scratch longitude.  The cross section loads on a tip that is only 3/32 more or less in diameter has Pound Per Inch loads on the cross section that can exceed 185,000 – 250,000 psi at any given time.  Put one imperfection into that circumference and you will have a fiber explosion that can sound like a small bolt of lightening when she pops!  Anyone that sends a graphite tip back to a manufacturer  that has snapped but who has fished Bead Heads with it, are not being fair to the companies that make them.  Frankly, I don’t think any Graphite Fly Rod Company today realizes this fact regarding why they are getting so many fly rods back with broken tips. Frankly, fly fishing to me means "All’s Fair With Fur or Feather," just as in upland hunting over a nice brace of Llewellyn Setters.  But it isn’t fair when fly fishermen are beating perfectly made fly rod tips with Brass, Metal or Lead Bead Heads other than normal hook hazards which is bad enough as it is, breaking them and then claiming foul. The extra glitter most get with bead heads is the same as fishing with pistol petes and calling it fly fishing, I suppose.  A little mix of the spinning world into fly fishing is the rogue these days and still claiming its fly fishing in the purist sense of the word. Well, it may be fly fishing but it isn’t pure to the traditions of old. It is compromises in order to take advantage using ingenious methods. The array of glittering materials have seen a huge explosion such as crystal hair, etc.  But Flashabou or Crystal Hair doesn’t smash against the rod tips like bird shot like items do, damaging the fly rods to certain ruin, sooner or later. I think it is only fair that we all consider being absolutely fair with fly rod companies turning out excellent products.  "Well, I slammed the car door on it and it broke," is the complaint and if the fly rod company doesn’t replace it for free . . . oh my!   This is why I never use bead head flies and/or nymphs.  At least, not yet I haven’t.  It just doesn’t hold the magic for me as it does for others.  I guess it all depends upon which generation you learned to fly fish in. I have no regrets. Mr. G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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The extra glitter most get with bead heads is the same as fishing with pistol petes and calling it fly fishing, I suppose.

It’s quite easy to get a little flash with other materials, as you pointed out.  I would guess that beadheads seem to catch more fish simply because it’s like a built in split shot – most people catch more fish simply because the nymph ends up deeper. Regards, Jeff

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The extra glitter most get with bead heads is the same as fishing with pistol petes and calling it fly fishing, I suppose. It’s quite easy to get a little flash with other materials, as you pointed out.  I would guess that beadheads seem to catch more fish simply because it’s like a built in split shot – most people catch more fish simply because the nymph ends up deeper. Regards, Jeff

______  A spherical bead head always has a flash spot or bright spot on it.  A glint that attracts whenever it gets into sunlight.  Besides what you point out about getting nymphs down to xink to the bottom, there are other ways besides beads.   — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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Man I’ve got so much to say…… Opie…you’re good and I’m sorry to hear about Mom.  Wish her the best. I know how you care for her and have you seen Walt…how much would it take to open up a fly shop?….NC is the first place I have ever been that made me think twice about retiring in South America. But I almost blew it because Wayno…..I  could have used you in Chicago because the weather was rainy and it got real drunk out before I went into the Orvis shop and thought, I wish Wayne was here because… Wayne, even tho’ I hate brand name labels….Orvis does make some good shit and I’d buy one of everything if I could afford it, but I couldn’t and I didn’t and I really wish – Wofgang would have been there to drive me back to the hotel because I got really lost and at times found myself in the deepest darkest alleys but now I’m home and the wife left  to visit her folks for a month and although I have scoured this town , nowhere is to be found, Low Down Brown and I wish… Ken were here to recommend a substitute, because… Charlie, I’ve only my beer and I’m down to stems and seeds again, and I’m   – Daytripper just about every damn day until she gets back and although I want to head south I might not make it because the horror and agony of knowing that countless gazzillions of insects died because they couldn’t xink to the bottom ….. ……well…..never mind.  But if there is something to get a nymph…or wooly down to the bottom  in some of the places I fish…..bring a camera ’cause I will xuck your dick……. …a month she is going to be gone gentlemen.  A month. This could get ugly…… john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The extra glitter most get with bead heads is the same as fishing with pistol petes and calling it fly fishing, I suppose. It’s quite easy to get a little flash with other materials, as you pointed out.  I would guess that beadheads seem to catch more fish simply because it’s like a built in split shot – most people catch more fish simply because the nymph ends up deeper. Regards, Jeff ______  A spherical bead head always has a flash spot or bright spot on it.  A glint that attracts whenever it gets into sunlight.  Besides what you point out about getting nymphs down to xink to the bottom, there are other ways besides beads. — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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Man I’ve got so much to say…… Wayno…..I  could have used you in Chicago because the weather was rainy and it got real drunk out before I went into the Orvis shop and thought, I wish Wayne was here because…

        well, john, i doubt i will be able to make the connection, but here’s a little help to put in your pocket when things get tough; just follow the bouncing ball:         then take me disappearin through the smoke rings of my mind,         down the foggy ruins of time, far past the frozen leaves,         the haunted, frightened trees, out to the windy beach,         far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow.         yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free,         silhouetted by the sea, circled by the circus sands,             with all memory and fate driven deep beneath the waves,         let me forget about today until tomorrow.                 b. dylan  (but you knew that) your friend in the old north state wayno

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…I don’t know Mr. G., but in my book an unconditional warranty on a rod is just that. ..and if we all want to be purists, wouldn’t we be using bamboo and braided hair lines?     I think you might be right though when you suggest that a definition of fly fishing might depend upon which generation you learned to fish in. Or, more than it being something to do with different generations, it could be that how you are introduced to fly fishing plays a larger part in shaping definitions. After all,the generation gap is a lot more narrow than we sometimes can recognize (lord knows, my once incredibly dense father keeps getting smarter and smarter the older I get).   In my case, no one I ever grew up with threw a fly; a casting book by Joan Wulff was my introduction. So I’ve never really had anyone tell me that "x" is fly fishing and "y" is not. My feeling is that if it’s an artificial lure and If I can cast it, then the fish and the trees should best beware.     …thanks for the great post, you got me thinking about my Pops.. and on fathers day at that. Later, Patrick

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I like that! — Opie  –Planning for the Past– – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …I don’t know Mr. G., but in my book an unconditional warranty on a rod is just that. ..and if we all want to be purists, wouldn’t we be using bamboo and braided hair lines?     I think you might be right though when you suggest that a definition of fly fishing might depend upon which generation you learned to fish in. Or, more than it being something to do with different generations, it could be that how you are introduced to fly fishing plays a larger part in shaping definitions. After all,the generation gap is a lot more narrow than we sometimes can recognize (lord knows, my once incredibly dense father keeps getting smarter and smarter the older I get).   In my case, no one I ever grew up with threw a fly; a casting book by Joan Wulff was my introduction. So I’ve never really had anyone tell me that "x" is fly fishing and "y" is not. My feeling is that if it’s an artificial lure and If I can cast it, then the fish and the trees should best beware.     …thanks for the great post, you got me thinking about my Pops.. and on fathers day at that. Later, Patrick

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…I don’t know Mr. G., but in my book an unconditional warranty on a rod is just that. ..and if we all want to be purists, wouldn’t we be using bamboo and braided hair lines?

purist because the term purist has not been defined except in the loosest sense.  I said, I was glad I learned to fly fish in my generation.  That in itself is definition enough.  I see you confirm that below.  Thank you for your thoughts and input.  There is a big difference between fly fishing and jig fishing with plastic worm these days.     I think you might be right though when you suggest that a definition of fly fishing might depend upon which generation you learned to fish in. Or, more than it being something to do with different generations, it could be that how you are introduced to fly fishing plays a larger part in shaping definitions. After all,the generation gap is a lot more narrow than we sometimes can recognize (lord knows, my once incredibly dense father keeps getting smarter and smarter the older I get).   In my case, no one I ever grew up with threw a fly; a casting book by Joan Wulff was my introduction. So I’ve never really had anyone tell me that "x" is fly fishing and "y" is not. My feeling is that if it’s an artificial lure and If I can cast it, then the fish and the trees should best beware.     …thanks for the great post, you got me thinking about my Pops.. and on fathers day at that. Later, Patrick

– Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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If this is just the beginnings of *could get bad,* I fear the future! — Opie  –Planning for the Past–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Man I’ve got so much to say…… Opie…you’re good and I’m sorry to hear about Mom.  Wish her the best. I know how you care for her and have you seen Walt…how much would it take to open up a fly shop?….NC is the first place I have ever been that made me think twice about retiring in South America. But I almost blew it because Wayno…..I  could have used you in Chicago because the weather was rainy and it got real drunk out before I went into the Orvis shop and thought, I wish Wayne was here because… Wayne, even tho’ I hate brand name labels….Orvis does make some good shit and I’d buy one of everything if I could afford it, but I couldn’t and I didn’t and I really wish – Wofgang would have been there to drive me back to the hotel because I got really lost and at times found myself in the deepest darkest alleys but now I’m home and the wife left  to visit her folks for a month and although I have scoured this town , nowhere is to be found, Low Down Brown and I wish… Ken were here to recommend a substitute, because… Charlie, I’ve only my beer and I’m down to stems and seeds again, and I’m   – Daytripper just about every damn day until she gets back and although I want to head south I might not make it because the horror and agony of knowing that countless gazzillions of insects died because they couldn’t xink to the bottom ….. ……well…..never mind.  But if there is something to get a nymph…or wooly down to the bottom  in some of the places I fish…..bring a camera ’cause I will xuck your dick……. …a month she is going to be gone gentlemen.  A month. This could get ugly…… john The extra glitter most get with bead heads is the same as fishing with pistol petes and calling it fly fishing, I suppose. It’s quite easy to get a little flash with other materials, as you pointed out.  I would guess that beadheads seem to catch more fish simply because it’s like a built in split shot – most people catch more fish simply because the nymph ends up deeper. Regards, Jeff ______  A spherical bead head always has a flash spot or bright spot on it.  A glint that attracts whenever it gets into sunlight.  Besides what you point out about getting nymphs down to xink to the bottom, there are other ways besides beads. — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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Question:

And rental of self-guided rafts ought to be prohibited.  If an experienced private rafter wants to bring his own boat, fine, but these yahoos who think they know what they’re doing, then get pinned at River’s End and take up private boaters’ time (none of the raft trips — even from the company whose name is on the pinned raft — stop to help) and require ropes across the channel, endangering other users.  Message to private boaters: STOP RESCUING THESE RAFTS!  Rescue the people, ferry them to river left and show them the bicycle trail; they’ll get home safely, and if the dam’ raft companies have to pay their own employees to come out and unpin the suckers, they’ll stop renting them pdq.

I hear where your coming from on this Richard.  And many times I feel the same way.  But, quite a few times I have rented rafts, shredders and duckies and brought people down the L.Yough.  I ahve brough some kids down that could not afford to go if I had not paid for the raft and done it myself.  So I do like the opportunity to be able to rent this equipment.  In the otherhand  I have a relatively large amount of experience on WW and this river. I don’t know what the solution is.  Maybe an amatuer guide license that is good for a five year period? What do RPB’ers say? Dan

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Isn’t swimmers rapid the only place on the lower yough where people intentially go in for a swim?   How many play holes are there on the lower yough?  The answer seems obvious to me.  Let the people that want to swim enjoy the river too and go play in a whole that doesn’t have people swimming through it.

How many? Lots. How many that are anything like swimmers? One. I have never perceived it to be much of a problem.  I guess someone could get hurt, but I bet it is fairly rare.  I don’t think the risk of death or serious injury are significant there. Pete

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Was that meant to be a provocation or just an accidentally stupid comment?

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Isn’t swimmers rapid the only place on the lower yough where people intentially go in for a swim?   How many play holes are there on the lower yough?  The answer seems obvious to me.  Let the people that want to swim enjoy the river too and go play in a whole that doesn’t have people swimming through it.

I find this answer unsatisfying.  It would seem to indicate that the swimmers have more of a claim to the spot than paddlers; I don’t think either should be given a preference, and that they should share the spot.  However, it’s difficult to share it *safely* when swimmers arrive en masse, sans helmets, with no warning.  (Just as it would be difficult to share it safely *if* paddlers didn’t wait their turn, etc.) Given that most boaters are accustomed to waiting in line there anyway, I think just letting them know that swimmers are coming would alleviate much of the potential problem.  But that’s easier said than done. (For those who don’t know the Lower Yough: Swimmer’s is *the* preferred spot for a number of reasons: it’s roughly halfway through the trip and makes a good spot to play as well as to have lunch and watch others; it’s a riverwide shallow-entry hole which is easy to get into and not too hard to get out of; and probably most importantly, it’s followed by some waves and a pool but not the usual piles of boulders, making recovery of boaters, boats, and equipment easy.  For a lot of paddlers, it’s the first hole of any size that they find themselves in, with friends waiting below to pick them up if they goof, and others encouraging them from the bank.  It is the only hole with all of these features (that I’m aware of) on the Lower Yough.) —Rsk Rich Kulawiec

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When a kayaker is playing in Swimmers, it is nearly impossible to see a human head and life jacket bob by (bob by out of control)  The question is then :  Is it safe for a person to intentionally jump in the water in front of a spinning kayak and continue downstream toward that kayak, virtually invisible and out of control?  Of course that is not safe.   Therefore, this should not be encouraged by rafting companies. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid.  It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep.  This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid.  First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it.  I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Isn’t swimmers rapid the only place on the lower yough where people intentially go in for a swim?   How many play holes are there on the lower yough?  The answer seems obvious to me.  Let the people that want to swim enjoy the river too and go play in a whole that doesn’t have people swimming through it. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy. What kind of policy can the AWA enforce for someone that wants to swim in the river?   Suppose that hole was the best flyfishing spot on the river and flyfishers had to wade to get to it.  Would you propose a "policy" to keep flyfishers from enjoying the river as well? John Fereira

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Paul – Your situation is very different than the Lower Yough.  I have no problem with *guided* raft trips; it’s the unguided ones, that OC1 says to leave the rafts hanging.  Help the people – leave the rafts.  Unfortunately, it’s cheaper to rent an unguided raft for the customer, and probably more profitable for the rafting company than the guided trips.  I like the idea of making these unguided rentals more costly for both sides. – Mothra  (aka Kathy Streletzky) "No man can enter the same river twice,for the second time, it is not the same river he is not the same man. – Anonymous" Acutally by Heracleitus of Ephesus (thanks, Retendokid) via a Dinty Moore short story        

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WHAT ANOTHER BUREAUCRATIC LICENSE? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And rental of self-guided rafts ought to be prohibited.  If an experienced private rafter wants to bring his own boat, fine, but these yahoos who think they know what they’re doing, then get pinned at River’s End and take up private boaters’ time (none of the raft trips — even from the company whose name is on the pinned raft — stop to help) and require ropes across the channel, endangering other users.  Message to private boaters: STOP RESCUING THESE RAFTS!  Rescue the people, ferry them to river left and show them the bicycle trail; they’ll get home safely, and if the dam’ raft companies have to pay their own employees to come out and unpin the suckers, they’ll stop renting them pdq. I hear where your coming from on this Richard.  And many times I feel the same way.  But, quite a few times I have rented rafts, shredders and duckies and brought people down the L.Yough.  I ahve brough some kids down that could not afford to go if I had not paid for the raft and done it myself.  So I do like the opportunity to be able to rent this equipment.  In the otherhand  I have a relatively large amount of experience on WW and this river. I don’t know what the solution is.  Maybe an amatuer guide license that is good for a five year period? What do RPB’ers say? Dan

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Another brilliant suggestion by OC1: STOP RESCUING THESE RAFTS!  Rescue the people, ferry them to river left and show them the bicycle trail; they’ll get home safely, and if the dam’ raft companies have to pay their own employees to come out and unpin the suckers, they’ll stop renting them

I don’t know if I’d go so far as to say brilliant.  The situation up here is different, in that the most rafts I ever been passed by in one day is about six, and ALL the commercial companies put guides in their rafts.  (Actually there are other companies that will rent rafts, but they’re not right at the river, since there isn’t much market for them. They have to be in a city, and cater to people going to different rivers.) Notwithstanding that, if I ran across a pinned raft, I’d probably give them a hand, even if just to practise my own rescue skills. Now, if I were running into pinned rafts every day, I’d probably run out of the need for practice, and follow OC1’s advice.  Having said that, I don’t think it would make any difference on a river like the Yough.  If the raft companies had to go out and rescue their rafts, they’d just start charging a rescue deposit.  You pay an extra $100 when you rent your raft, and if you return it all in one piece, you get the money back.  If the company has to send someone to retrieve it, you don’t.  Would such a deposit have an effect on people’s safety?  Would they try harder to avoid trouble (I doubt it), or would they risk themselves unnecessarily in the event they do get their raft pinned (possible)? -Paul

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Another brilliant suggestion by OC1: STOP RESCUING THESE RAFTS!  Rescue the people, ferry them to river left and show them the bicycle trail; they’ll get home safely, and if the dam’ raft companies have to pay their own employees to

come out and unpin the suckers, they’ll stop renting them – Mothra  (aka Kathy Streletzky) "No man can enter the same river twice,for the second time, it is not the same river he is not the same man. – Anonymous" Acutally by Heracleitus of Ephesus (thanks, Retendokid) via a Dinty Moore short story        

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Isn’t swimmers rapid the only place on the lower yough where people intentially go in for a swim?   How many play holes are there on the lower yough?  The answer seems obvious to me.  Let the people that want to swim enjoy the river too and go play in a whole that doesn’t have people swimming through it.

That’s a lot like saying boaters should give up Beat Me Daddy (Jaws) on the Nolichucky, Hellhole on the Ocoee, of Diagonal Ledges on the Lower Gauley.  Swimmers is not merely "the best" playspot on the Lower Yough, it stands head, shoulders, torso, and hips above any other.  Swimmers, incidently, is not "training" or "swimming practice", because the trip is already half over, and the #1 raft-flipping rapid is the one that leads into Swimmers (Swimmers was named by the raft companies, BTW, but I have often wondered if it wasn’t named for the unintendo swimmers that flip at Dimple?) What kind of policy can the AWA enforce for someone that wants to swim in the river?   Suppose that hole was the best flyfishing spot on the river and flyfishers had to wade to get to it.  Would you propose a "policy" to keep flyfishers from enjoying the river as well?

The post you reply to, John, is not proposing banning swimmers from the site.  The poster, Joe Hatcher, is a raft guide for Pete’s sake, and he is asking for suggestions for a safe solution to the problem he perceives, such that everyone can continue to enjoy that spot without any injuries. Joe, I’d say (and I’ve said everytime I see rafters flying out of their boats and flushing under Dimple Rock) that the solution is a helmet law.  I don’t know if the raft companies charge extra rental fees for helmets, but I believe they do for wetsuits.  ALL that stuff ought to be provided — reguired, except for wetsuits in July and August — to every customer. And rental of self-guided rafts ought to be prohibited.  If an experienced private rafter wants to bring his own boat, fine, but these yahoos who think they know what they’re doing, then get pinned at River’s End and take up private boaters’ time (none of the raft trips — even from the company whose name is on the pinned raft — stop to help) and require ropes across the channel, endangering other users.  Message to private boaters: STOP RESCUING THESE RAFTS!  Rescue the people, ferry them to river left and show them the bicycle trail; they’ll get home safely, and if the dam’ raft companies have to pay their own employees to come out and unpin the suckers, they’ll stop renting them pdq. — Richard Hopley, concise and to the point, as always. OC-1; Rockville, Maryland, USA, BBM; (301) 330-8265 Monocacy Canoe Club, Blue Ridge Voyageurs, Canoe Cruisers’ Ass’n, Greater Baltimore CC, Coastal Canoeists, Rhode Island Canoe/Kayak Ass’n, Carolina CC, Tennessee Scenic Rivers Ass’n, ACA, and AWA Note 1: To send me eMail, remove ".NoSpam" from my address Note 2: Sometimes I just forget to type that smiley-face emoticon. Note 3: Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock’n'Roll.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (For those who don’t know the Lower Yough: Swimmer’s is *the* preferred spot for a number of reasons: it’s roughly halfway through the trip and makes a good spot to play as well as to have lunch and watch others; it’s a riverwide shallow-entry hole which is easy to get into and not too hard to get out of; and probably most importantly, it’s followed by some waves and a pool but not the usual piles of boulders, making recovery of boaters, boats, and equipment easy.  For a lot of paddlers, it’s the first hole of any size that they find themselves in, with friends waiting below to pick them up if they goof, and others encouraging them from the bank.  It is the only hole with all of these features (that I’m aware of) on the Lower Yough.) —Rsk Rich Kulawiec

Rich is right!  This is a hole that is probably one of the best, anyplace, to teach boaters how to sit up and control thier boats in a side surf.  I can body surf into the hole and stand up in the foam pile.  I can stand there and have less experienced boaters paddle into the hole, grab hold of them and stabilize them.  I can then instruct them on how to sit up properly and how to place thier paddle and how to work to the river right seam and use it to spin and switch paddle size. If they go over, I can many times right them quickly and stabilize them and give them a chance to breath and feel relaxed.  They then can choose to try it again or go back to the eddy.  I stand in there and help people in Duckies get 360’s when it is there first time in a river.  My son at 13, could go in without a paddle and be anyplace he wanted in the hole, and spin whenever he wanted.  Now I don’t let him get in without me there to make it more challenging for him other wise he may become a hole hog.  Can’t allow that.  Just as long as boaters know swimmer are coming and swimmers are wearing helmets, there are no problems with swimmers and boaters in this hole.  Plenty enough room and time for both. Dan

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Problem First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough.

        With all of the extremely stupid regulations that the Peoples Republic of Pennsylvania has for that park (no beer, launch times, water level restrictions), you’d think that helmets would be mandatory.

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I am surprised the raft companies would do this in the first place. Swimming in a river, with current, is always hazardous.  Foot entrapments, hidden strainers and the like are always a possibility. Swimming through a hole also has it’s hazards, surfing kayaks just being one of them.  I am also sure that the insurance companies that insure the raft companies would not be too pleased with the raft companies ‘advising’ customers to swim.

I spend very little time on the Lower Yough, so can’t speak to this particular site, but we have swim spots on the New, Cheat, Upper and Lower Gauley.  Our insurance companies are very aware of the practice and help to provide the guidelines we use when swimming our guests.  As has been discussed in another thread, a controlled and instructed swim in a relatively safe rapid can be a real asset for someone who later finds themselves swimming unexpectedly.  These rapids have all been swum by thousands of raft guests over the years, so any hazards would have presented themselves by now.  Remember that out your way you’re dealing with much colder water, which can be an important factor.  Here it makes sense. Dave Bassage

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To:   Roger Lynn Safety Chair Colorado Whitewater Association Being on the "Safety Chair" of a WW Association, I’m supprised you haven’t heard of or can’t see the benafits of a comercial "guest", or anyone else, swimming a rapid as part of their safety training to prepare for a raft trip.   Of coarse it should be in a controled situation (no kayaks surfing the hole) with prudent safety precautions and with the guests in the proper atire.  I’d suggest; vest, helmet, footwear and any other cloathing that was prudent. I Saw Dave Bassage noted that the water may be colder in Colorado than out East but, I would assume and recomend that guests on a raft trip or anyone boating the river for that matter, should be dressed for a swim anyway. I’m not trying to be rude or "in your face" but, what is the Colorado whitewater Association anyway?  It has to do with boating… right? Your post supprises me as I thought this was a common practice.                                                        Jake " OVER FORTY…… IT’S ALL DOWN RIVER FROM HERE "

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well, now… mebbe a good first step would be to put HELMETS and GUIDES with some of them there raftin’ folk… DUH!!! sheesh! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid.      It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep.      This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid.      First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it.  I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid.  It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep.  This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid.  First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it.  I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done.

Isn’t swimmers rapid the only place on the lower yough where people intentially go in for a swim?   How many play holes are there on the lower yough?  The answer seems obvious to me.  Let the people that want to swim enjoy the river too and go play in a whole that doesn’t have people swimming through it. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.

What kind of policy can the AWA enforce for someone that wants to swim in the river?   Suppose that hole was the best flyfishing spot on the river and flyfishers had to wade to get to it.  Would you propose a "policy" to keep flyfishers from enjoying the river as well? John Fereira

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Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid.  It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep.  This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid.  First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it.  I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.

Response:

Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed.

In reference to our previous post.  We have rude kayakers that screw up to. All groups have problems. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid. It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep. This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid. First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it.  I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done.

Cooperation. A month or so ago I was at Surfers Rapid on Section 4 of the Chattooga (sc and GA USA)  I was with about 5 other hard boats and we where trying to cartwheel the hole.  A group of rafts came down and they beached.  The customers all got out and stood on the rock.  We played for a minute then I paddled up to the guide.  He asked if we could get in the eddy for a minute to let some of his customers come down.  He sent between 8 and 10 and then we all took a trip in the hole.  He sent the next batch and we got in the hole again.  We took turns and had no problems whatsoever.  If we all realize that we have no more rights to be there than anyone else then thing get along fine.  It is when one group decides they have special rights that problems arise. Scott Bristow – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.

Response:

First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough.

I obviously don’t know the river section but I’m surprised at this. Surely, even on easy water this should be compulsory. No? Jez — "What happened while I was talking to the fish?"

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1) Put helmets on all river users.  This is a bit of a no-brainer.  Big time liability on the part of any rafting company or guide who has clients swim in rapids or into traffic without helmets. 2) Assign a traffic cop/raft guide with a whistle to stand on shore at the play spot and coordinate the use equitable use of the hole.  It works well on the Ottawa.  Again, big time liability for any rafting company or guide who has clients swim into traffic without taking reasonable actions to control the traffic. Richard Culpeper – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid.  It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep.  This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid.  First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it.  I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.

Response:

On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid.  It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep.  This is also a great spot for raft companies

Ten deep is crowded? Man, I’ve been on the Ocoee too much….. Fester

Response:

I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.

I am surprised the raft companies would do this in the first place. Swimming in a river, with current, is always hazardous.  Foot entrapments, hidden strainers and the like are always a possibility. Swimming through a hole also has it’s hazards, surfing kayaks just being one of them.  I am also sure that the insurance companies that insure the raft companies would not be too pleased with the raft companies ‘advising’ customers to swim. Just my two cents. Roger Lynn Safety Chair Colorado White Water Association http://www.earthnet.net/~cwwa

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Seems to me it would be tough living with it if I were the Raft guide who let or suggested his or her customers to swim the rapid when there were possible hazzards (kayaks playing in hole) there. My suggestion would be if there were kayaks there, fin someplace else. Not that it’s an ideal situation but, it’s kind of a "right of weight" thing.  Swimmers should avoid contact with kayakers (by not swimming there when kayaks are there, and as their GUIDE, you shouldn’t let them) like kayakers avoid your raft when you come down the rapid.  You don’t wait in the eddy above the rapid till the hole is clear before going down in a raft do you?  I think you figure they’ll get out of my way I have the "right of weight".                                                    Jake " OVER FORTY…… IT’S ALL DOWN RIVER FROM HERE "

Response:

First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. I obviously don’t know the river section but I’m surprised at this. Surely, even on easy water this should be compulsory. No?

Well, you and I might agree that it should be so, but it’s not. Two of the more popular rivers for whitewater rafting in the eastern USA are here in Pennsylvania: the Lehigh and the (Lower) Youghiogheny. At normal flow levels, the Lehigh is II+, the Yough is III+; both are drop-and-pool rivers and both have an awful lot of boulders in them. (At high water, the Lehigh is easy III, with lots and lots of waves; the Yough starts taking on some IV characteristics and the pools, especially in the first mile, start to disappear.) On the Lehigh, nearly all raft trips that I’ve seen have been accompanied by guides: sometimes in the rafts, sometimes in duckies, often in kayaks. On the Yough, many of the raft trips that I’ve seen have been UNguided. Rafters are given a safety talk, PFD’s and paddles and rafts, and a waterproof "map" of the rapids and sent downstream.  I find this astonishing, given that there are a few places on the Yough that are known to cause safety problems for the untrained and even some of the trained (the undercut at Dimple; the foot entrapment spot in Cucumber). In neither case are they given helmets — I sat below Pipeline on the Lehigh at 2000 CFS a month ago and watched a guide working on a rafter’s head; her hair was a bloody mess, but she seemed to be relatively okay.  Whether the wound came during a swim or from a paddle, or something else, I don’t know — but I think a helmet would have probably prevented it. Contrast this with West Virginia, just to the south, where (unless I’ve had the statute misquoted to me) rafters are required by state law to wear helmets anytime they’re in III or above. No compliance incurs a fine for the rafter, the guide, and the company. I often wnoder what goes through the mind of rafters as they watch us go by.  Do they notice that we look like we know what we’re doing and that *we’re wearing helmets*?  Do they then ask their outfitters the obvious question? On the issue of Swimmers on the Lower Yough, I’ve been concerned about accidentally hitting a swimmer as well, especially because I paddle a slalom boat whose ends are quite pointed and could really hurt somebody.  It would probably help matters a lot if the raft guides (when there *are* guides) would send one of their number down to the hole and coordinate traffic with a counterpart up at the jump rock so that everybody can take their turn. I don’t mind sharing or waiting for my turn; I do mind being put in a situation where I suddenly find that I may be endangering someone even though that’s the last thing I’d ever want to do. —Rsk Rich Kulawiec

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I play at Swimmer Hole on the Lower Yough quite frequently with my children.  I have had my daughter at 6 years old swim through it with me.  We all get into it and body surf it. I do not let my children swim through the rapid without a helmet.  I have been body surfing the hole and had a kayak come in with me.  I was more in the foam and he was about to knock me out of the wave so I grabbed the back of his boat and "seal" slid over him and we both kept on surfing.  no prolbem because we were both wearing protection.  Helmets. I am always amazed how raft companies can send people down without helmets.  Last time I was there (about 4wks ago) I saw some company guide butterfly bandaging some womans head at the bottom of Double Hydraulic Rapid.  She would not have needed that care if she had a helmet.  She would also look nicer without the Frankenstien stitches on her forehead. It irritates me that the Park Service will not let me run Ohiopyle Falls (an easy drop) but will allow hordes of unskilled, inexperienced people treat the Yough like a Disney World Ride ride and not wear the proper safety equipment.  So many times I have pulled families out of messes with my low volume boat, or advised families to get out and scout rapids.  One family with a father, mother, 14 yr son and 12 yr daughter were all over the river.  The daughter and mother were scared silly.  I suggested that they get out and look over Dimple and maybe let the mother and daughter walk.  The father was quite irritated with me.  I think I accidentaly stepped on his realm of power control and machismo. The mother and daughter complained until they let them out and the father and son proceeded to flip the raft on dimple. I want the ability to rent rafts privately at the L. Yough so I can take people down safely and have a good time.  But I am worried that too many people are allowed, and encouraged to get themselves into messes that could result in me loosing the privledge to privately rent a raft.  Half the time it seems like the guided trips (one or two guide rafts, maybe a safety boater kayak with many unguided rafts) that have the most injuries. It is a great river for improving skills for intermediate paddlers and a great place to give people a good whitewater experience.  but you need to wear helmets. Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid.  It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep.  This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid.  First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it.  I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.

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Question:

I’m getting back into flyfishing after several years and i need a new rod/reel/line outfit.  I’ve seen several nice ones around but can’t really decide which weight i should go for.  I’m considering a #6 or #7 weight rod – but i haven’t ruled out a #5 or #8 weight either.  I fish mostly for trout and panfish, w/ a few occasional largemouth and smallmouth bass and small pickerel.  I would like an outfit w/ as much versitility as possible for small to medium-sized fish.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanx.                                                -Zimmy

Response:

I’m primarily a warmwater ff and have always used an 8 wt.  Recently I picked up a 6 wt. fast action rod and have really enjoyed it for bass and panfish.  I think that the faster action allows it to cast larger flies well, yet, it is still fun with small 12" bass. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m getting back into flyfishing after several years and i need a new rod/reel/line outfit.  I’ve seen several nice ones around but can’t really decide which weight i should go for.  I’m considering a #6 or #7 weight rod – but i haven’t ruled out a #5 or #8 weight either.  I fish mostly for trout and panfish, w/ a few occasional largemouth and smallmouth bass and small pickerel. I would like an outfit w/ as much versitility as possible for small to medium-sized fish.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanx.                                               -Zimmy

Response:

I’m getting back into flyfishing after several years and i need a new rod/reel/line outfit.  I’ve seen several nice ones around but can’t really decide which weight i should go for.  I’m considering a #6 or #7 weight rod – but i haven’t ruled out a #5 or #8 weight either.  I fish mostly for trout and panfish, w/ a few occasional largemouth and smallmouth bass and small pickerel.  I would like an outfit w/ as much versitility as possible for small to medium-sized fish.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanx.

Be guided by fly size.  If your typical day was spent using only flies #16 and smaller you would want a 5 weight outfit (or 6 or 4).  If the typical day was spent casting one-inch poppers or streamers for bass you’d want a 7 weight or 8.  You can cast bigger flies on a lighter outfit, and you can cast smaller than #16s on a 7 weight or heavier outfit, but you would probably not enjoy it after an hour or so. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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I use a Sage 5wt overlined with 6wt line.  It is a tip-flex rod and it has a very fast action which does a good job casting flies as small as size 12 dries to 1/0 deer hair poppers.  It has enough backbone to fight big largemouths and is sensitive enough to make moderate sized panfish a blast to catch.  No, it’s not the perfect rod for every situation, but as an all-around warm-water rod, I couldn’t want for much more.  I still would like a 2 or 3wt for small panfish and a 9wt for saltwater. HTH, Clark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m getting back into flyfishing after several years and i need a new rod/reel/line outfit.  I’ve seen several nice ones around but can’t really decide which weight i should go for.  I’m considering a #6 or #7 weight rod – but i haven’t ruled out a #5 or #8 weight either.  I fish mostly for trout and panfish, w/ a few occasional largemouth and smallmouth bass and small pickerel. I would like an outfit w/ as much versitility as possible for small to medium-sized fish.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanx.                                               -Zimmy

Response:

(Donald Phillipson) writes:

*SNIP* I fish mostly for trout and panfish, w/ a few occasional largemouth and smallmouth bass and small pickerel.  I would like an outfit w/ as much versitility as possible for small to medium-sized fish.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanx. Be guided by fly size.  If your typical day was spent using only flies #16 and smaller you would want a 5 weight outfit (or 6 or 4).  If the typical day was spent casting one-inch poppers or streamers for bass you’d want a 7 weight or 8.  You can cast bigger flies on a lighter outfit, and you can cast smaller than #16s on a 7 weight or heavier outfit, but you would probably not enjoy it after an hour or so.

Don’s advice is right on the money.  Presuming you use a forearm-based casting stroke, sounds like a fast action 6wt. (such as the Orvis TL 906 – Silver Label or Trident version) would do the trick.  If you expect to through lots of #2 deer hair bugs, go ahead and stick a 7wt. line on that fast action 6.  The rod will handle it just fine and the 7wt. line pulls big bugs through the air better than the 6.  If you didn’t need to throw the big bugs for largemouth bass, a 5 wt would do fine.  So, like Don says, let your fly size be your guide. I have a line-weight/fly size/quarry table (my personal opinions) set up on my web-site that you might want to glance at.  Go to "http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish/LineSpec.html" and click on the hyperlink to "Line Weight ‘Recommended Uses’ Chart".  You might find it useful in making your decision.                                        Good Fishing,                                             Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools Mt. Shasta Fly Fishing Schools http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish

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I have a pfluger summit 6W and I use it for every kind of fish, from 15 inch trout to 20 pound red salmon on the keni river. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m getting back into flyfishing after several years and i need a new rod/reel/line outfit.  I’ve seen several nice ones around but can’t really decide which weight i should go for.  I’m considering a #6 or #7 weight rod – but i haven’t ruled out a #5 or #8 weight either.  I fish mostly for trout and panfish, w/ a few occasional largemouth and smallmouth bass and small pickerel.  I would like an outfit w/ as much versitility as possible for small to medium-sized fish.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanx.                                                -Zimmy

Response:

If you are just getting back into flyfishing and you fished with lower modulus graphite or even fiberglass in the past, be very careful with the new tip flex type rods that some have recommended.  A 5 weight is a good all around rod, and as one wrote, 6 wt line will help the rod load better with larger flies.  I would consider a good mid flex or even a powerful full flex rod to get back in the swing of things.  Either way, make sure you cast it first.  Any good dealer will insist you cast it prior to buying it.  Good luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m getting back into flyfishing after several years and i need a new rod/reel/line outfit.  I’ve seen several nice ones around but can’t really decide which weight i should go for.  I’m considering a #6 or #7 weight rod – but i haven’t ruled out a #5 or #8 weight either.  I fish mostly for trout and panfish, w/ a few occasional largemouth and smallmouth bass and small pickerel. I would like an outfit w/ as much versitility as possible for small to medium-sized fish.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanx.                                               -Zimmy

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Question:

Not exactly that crude of an explaination Burt.  What Jim and do is start at the tail of a shoot and throw rocks in.  Big rocks so the ‘clunk’ on the bottom.  This drives the steelhead, like cattle to the top or tongue of the shoot or run where we then start nymphing for them again.  It’s a very workable and successful way to gather your fish that are strung out. George

George, Maybe better, you could just drag a big net across the pool and on upstream and keep the fish at your feet…..that way you wouldn’t have to stop fishing every once in awhile and go throw some more rocks.  Damn, all these years I have spent time moving down a pool to meet the fish…maybe I’ll bring my deck chair next time and TimW also; sounds like his type of fishing. Fred Rickson

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I am going to change the treat a little. Nymphing with a floating line is almost something I can understand and do. But I get into trouble when nymphing (or streamerfishing) with a sink tip line (except the stripping retrieve in lakes, OK). How do you fish you sink tip line and how do you detect strike. Any input would be welcome. Where are the salmon/steelhead ffer and speyfisher, any comments there?? TIA     Thomas

Hi Thomas, I agree with most of the folks who say it is much tougher to nymph with a sinking or sink-tip line than a floating line.   The reason it is so tough is that if you get a dead drift with a sinking or sink-tip line you won’t feel anything and the trout has to really move the fly a lot for the sinking part of the line to move enough for you to see it at the surface.  If you keep a tight line so you can feel the strike, you don’t get a dead drift and don’t get nearly as many strikes.  In fast water, the current is more likely to force the fly into the corner of the fish’s mouth and hook him long enough to move the line.  In slower water he is long gone before you’d get any indication of a take. One way of nymphing with a sinking or sink-tip line is to cast up and slightly across stream, allow the fly and line to sink  to the bottom, and then raise the rod just enough to straighten out the line and lead it downstream just *slightly faster* than the current.  Properly done this doesn’t give you a drag free drift, but it comes close and still allows you to feel the strike.  Some of the best areas to do this are in fast water as mentioned above, and also where a riffle drops into a plunge pool.  This is known as just barely "keeping in touch" with your fly.  You can also use this tactic in close using a floating line and a long leader.                         Hope this helps,                                 Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This reminds me of something:  I saw a ff’ing tv show back in ‘93 or so that featured Jim Teeny as guest and guide for the hour.  He took the Jim Teeny and his wife have a very good reputation in the fly fishing industry. I have not met them, but have heard good things about them. Some anglers might not like to fish their techneques. Yeah, speaking of his techniques, I was watching a vid of him fishing for stellhead, don’t remember where – North Umpqua maybe.  He could get the fish to take his fly, so he says here is a tactic I use to get the fish moving. He picks up a big rock and throws it right in the middle of the pod of fish. He did catch one a little later.  I have always felt a little uncomfortable with that. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley 2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

Not exactly that crude of an explaination Burt.  What Jim and do is start at the tail of a shoot and throw rocks in.  Big rocks so the ‘clunk’ on the bottom.  This drives the steelhead, like cattle to the top or tongue of the shoot or run where we then start nymphing for them again.  It’s a very workable and successful way to gather your fish that are strung out. George

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I’ve seen some derogatory things posted here about Jim Teeny that are not at all characteristic of the man. I met Jim Teeny at a steelhead seminar weekend put on by Stewart’s Custom Tackle in Wood Village, OR (just east of Portland) in the mid 70’s.  He was very helpful to a new FF devotee (me) getting started steelhead fishing.  Full of info and willing to share it – uncommon in that area at the time.   The first steelhead that I had on long enough to see  jump, was on the Salmon River outside of Welches, OR which is the Salmon River in question.  It is illegal to fish for Salmon there as they were trying to rebuild the run even back in the  70’s and the stream had a great steelhead run.  Nonetheless every once in a while someone would hook a salmon.  The law requires that they be released unharmed.  I’ve seen Jim on that river a number of times and he was always sight fishing for steelhead.  He is a very effective sight fisher and rarely hooks anything he doesn’t intend to.  This is a fairly small stream and is usually pretty clear. Very hard for me to believe he would be fishing for salmon illegally.   The Salmon is a tributary of the Sandy River and the salmon that make it up there are usually dark and don’t fight for crap.  I hooked a couple there while fishing for steelhead on the swing back then.  The first one I tried to pull in and he just dogged it on the bottom bending my 8 wt. like a noodle.  Learned my lesson quickly, pointed the rod at the fish and pulled to break him off.  Broke of the second one immediately. Not my idea of a good time, especially when there are fish in the river that will jump 4-5 ft. into the air and tear off 120 yards of backing like there was nothing to it.  Most of the fish I caught there I spotted first.  Not something Jim would purposely go after. Yes, this is one of the rivers on Jim’s SA video Catching More Steelhead.  In my experience Jim has always exhibited sportsmanship and ettiquette on the stream.  Even during the rock throwing incident on the video to stir lathargic fish up (known as stoning the pool in the UK I believe) he cautions to be sure to check with any anglers in the area before doing so, so it doesn’t ruin their fishing.  He also says it is a last resort when the fish is in a lie that is impossible to cover. In the mid 70’s, Jim lived outside of Gresham on the banks of the Sandy River and that is the river he calls home. Since I lived in Troutdale at the time, I fished it a lot too, though no where near as effectively.  The Sandy gets a good run of big steelhead in the winter. They are very hard to catch on a fly because the water is deep, fast, and very cold.  If you don’t put it in front of the steelhead’s face, he won’t take it.  Jim had a reputation for catching more fish there than anyone on the river.  On the number of occasions that I ran into him back then, he was always enthusiastic, helpful, and polite. I’m not sure he would remember me, but he helped me get started fly fishing for steelhead and I can’t be quiet when his reputation is sullied.  On the occassions I have seen him since, mostly at trade shows, he has always remained exuberant and cordial.                                         Grateful for his help,                                                       Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    Organization: Structured Network Systems, Inc.    Perhaps as a friend you might want to consider giving your friend some    well intentioned advise.  When filming a fishing show try to not fish    for the spawners.  Too many times I’ve seen shows with Jim catching very    dark Salmon or Steelhead that look close to spawning.  As a    professional, catching spawners just doesn’t impress.    Robert Especially if the fishing method involves the skilled placement of a hook in a stationary, inactive, fishes mouth.  There is a difference between hooking a fish and having it strike. -tgades

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So to me, Jim Teeny is a classic fly fisherman and gentleman.  One that I admire and will always admire . . . no matter where I am. Mr. Gink Perhaps as a friend you might want to consider giving your friend some well intentioned advise.  When filming a fishing show try to not fish for the spawners.  Too many times I’ve seen shows with Jim catching very dark Salmon or Steelhead that look close to spawning.  As a professional, catching spawners just doesn’t impress. Robert

You are right.  I’ll do that next time I talk to Jim. Mr. Gink

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So to me, Jim Teeny is a classic fly fisherman and gentleman.  One that I admire and will always admire . . . no matter where I am. Mr. Gink

Perhaps as a friend you might want to consider giving your friend some well intentioned advise.  When filming a fishing show try to not fish for the spawners.  Too many times I’ve seen shows with Jim catching very dark Salmon or Steelhead that look close to spawning.  As a professional, catching spawners just doesn’t impress. Robert

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hummmmm?  Well, Gentlemen.  If you

Question:

Do you want to blow your mind, try fishing for monster pike with a fly rod.

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Question:

Would like to get some info on fishing for pike, bass etc. in Alberta, Manitoba, and Sask. Places you have fished. I am from the West Coast so this is all new to me. I will be bringing my own boat and camper Thanks for your help.

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In Manitoba there are numerous spots for Pike but htere are only two GREAT musky Lakes and all you can keep is a picture. They stock them at 38". Does that tell you anything? Lots of good lakes with big Pike "Way up North" but I caught the biggest Pike of my career right in Lake of the Prairies. Lots of 48" stuff that weighs in the 30 to 35 lb range. Water is high in fertility so it makes for very large fish very early. If you have a big enough Boat and your going through Saskatchewan hit LAke Deifenbaker. You’l catch anything from Pike to Atlantic Salmon. Probably the most underated fishery in the Province and lots of good camping in a priairie environment. You’ll see more animals than you will in the far North and again the water fertility is very high. — Bob Sheedy Angling Adventures North Lake Fly Fishing On-Line Magazine Home of MASTER ANGLER Fishing Software http://www.articfire.com/arcfire/fishing.htm

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It’s nice to hear from someone who is interested in fishing in Saskatchewan. I live in North Battleford and would recommend any of the lakes in this area. There are no Bass around here, mainly Pike, Walleye, Perch and Stocked Trout. Murray Lake and Jackfish Lake are located 20 minutes North of the city, within our Provincial Park which is very beautiful. They are known for limits of 10" – 12" Perch, lots of Walleye, the largest being about 7 – 8 lbs, as well as plenty of Pike, the largest being 32 lbs. We have stocked Trout lakes such as Twin Lakes, and Picnic Lake, but the sizes caught would probably be considerably smaller than you are used to, 2 – 10 lbs. Also running through the center of the city is the beautiful Saskatchewan River, which has produced Walleye over 10 lbs, as well as Sturgeon up to and exceeding the 100 lb mark. I hope this helps, and I hope your stay in our wonderful province is a memorable one. Good Fishing!

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In order to promote a commonality of spirit and in rememberance of my late and great dear friend Lee Wulff, I offer the following contest and prizes. Rules: Tie FOUR WULFF FLIES. 1) The Royal Wulff 2) A Blonde or Cream Wulff 3) A Tan Wulff 4) A Grey Wulff 6) One Streamer 7) One Fly of tiers own choosing.  Unlimited Entry. Sizes of the entries choosing.  Small as well as large sizes have equal consideration

EXCELLENT !!!! Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes ! Thank you George…Looking forwards and not backwards. My bugs’ll be there !   *AND* my Grey Wulff will win… 8^) TimW Here’s hoping for snow on the slopes and a heater near the tying bench !!! [This is gonna be cool]

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In order to promote a commonality of spirit and in rememberance of my late and great dear friend Lee Wulff.This sounds like a nice contest.Contests don’t have to have huge prizes

to be well recieved! As a former rep. (Western Canada) and  outdoor columnist/writer (I do not get sick of talking about the outdoors), I always admire any manufacturer that shows support for the business in one way or another. As I muddle around with considering repping again in Onatrio, I applaud this initiative, and will mention it at Kingstons next flyfishing get together.F.Y.I. I am starting a new Canadian Outdoor Collector newsletter (I got fed up with the lack of Canuck perspective/content for outdoor collectibles, etc.) regards Outdoor Columnist 101 Bridge St. W. Napanee, Ont., K7R-2C8

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In order to promote a commonality of spirit and in rememberance of my late and great dear friend Lee Wulff, I offer the following contest and prizes. Rules: Tie FOUR WULFF FLIES. 1) The Royal Wulff 2) A Blonde or Cream Wulff 3) A Tan Wulff 4) A Grey Wulff 6) One Streamer 7) One Fly of tiers own choosing.  Unlimited Entry. Sizes of the entries choosing.  Small as well as large sizes have equal consideration Flies submitted to be postmarked by 2 January 1997 Prizes are as follows: 1st Place/Prize         $ 50.00 2nd Place/Prize         $ 40.00 3rd Place/Prize         $ 10.00 4th – 20th Place        Product of your choice. GEHRKE’S GINK will honor all prize/cash payments even if only four entries are made. All flies submitted to the contest become the property of GEHRKE’S GINK. A featured article in our World Famous Newsletter; "Uncle Gink’s Cave" will be published on the winning entries.  All entries should tell us somthing about their flies and of themselves.  How long they have tied, etc. Flies may be photographed for publication in "Uncle Gink’s Cave" which is circulated World Wide to over 6,000 dealers and wholesalers. All those who enter ‘George’s Great Gobs of Flies’ Contest will receive a copy of the Newsletter.  This contest is open to all fly tiers around the world.  The prize is not so much the money but rather the worth of being judged by and shown too a very large audience. Send all entries to the attention of: Mr. George Gehrke Presidents Fly Judging Contest Snake River – Hell’s Canyon Asotin, WA 99402 The contest starts now.  Each year’s contest will honor specific fly patterns invented by long honored tiers.  The ‘Unlimited Class’ will always remain a standard feature.  In this arena, a size .32 midge has every chance of winning as a Blue Doctor will.  It’s been a long time since we’ve seen a good, traditional and properly tied Salmon Fly. Good luck, one and all. Mr. George Gehrke

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Question:

Anyone know of a Horse/Burro Co. that bring folks into the Kings Canyon area of California?  Or maybe a suggested newsgroup I might try. Thanks. Randy Rose

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Anyone know of a Horse/Burro Co. that bring folks into the Kings Canyon area of California?  

There are a number of pack stations that take people into Kings Cyn.  A few are actually in Kings Cyn. and Sequoia Parks and there are several on the east side off US Highway 395.  Best source of names and addresses are two publications from the Automobile Club of Southern Calif. (AAA):    1. The guide book "Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks"    2. The map "Guide to Eastern Sierra" BTW, the fishing, esp. fly fishing, on the small creeks early in the season and the So. Fork of the Kings in late summer and fall is among the best in Calif. and you don’t have to walk or ride very far to escape the crouds.

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