Question:

I am a recent arrival to the Central Valley- the Elk Grove area of Sacramento to be exact- and I’m looking for some fishing area tips. I did go out last night to the Sac River just south of the Freeport Bridge and caught cats with my neighbors, but catfishing is not my favorite pasttime. I did however learn several new tackle tips ; Magic String, Sliders" etc..  While I can tolerate bait fishing and always catch fishing using bait, it is not my favorite fishing. My former pursuits were the smallmouth bass of eastern NY rivers (Hoosick, Hudson, Mohawk) on spin and fly tackle so that may give you an idea of the kind of fishing I’m used to. I am perfectly happy fishing for bluegill  with a light fly rod and I have thoroughly enjoyed the occasional carp I’ve tied into. I know the area here has a wealth of fishing I’m just not sure where it is! I would like to start with freshwater sites for now. I do have a canoe so any smallcraft waters  directions would also be appreciated. Also any local publications I should be reading will be greatly appreciated. Also which stamps are worth the purchase on a CA fishing license? Thanks for being computer literate anglers! Phil

Response:

Get the Fish Sniffer, publisher is in Elk Grove.  Lots of fishing.  The pits next to I-5 hold bass, you can fish from shore, or canoe.  Get Tom Stienstra’s book, Fishing California, lists every bit of fishable water in the state.  The Stanislaus river is good, and canoe friendly.  Go up to Verona and shad may still be there, can fish fron the sandbar in the Feather.  Float the Sac above Colusa with the canoe.  Smallies, shad, salmon, LMB. Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am a recent arrival to the Central Valley- the Elk Grove area of Sacramento to be exact- and I’m looking for some fishing area tips. I did go out last night to the Sac River just south of the Freeport Bridge and caught cats with my neighbors, but catfishing is not my favorite pasttime. I did however learn several new tackle tips ; Magic String, Sliders" etc..  While I can tolerate bait fishing and always catch fishing using bait, it is not my favorite fishing. My former pursuits were the smallmouth bass of eastern NY rivers (Hoosick, Hudson, Mohawk) on spin and fly tackle so that may give you an idea of the kind of fishing I’m used to. I am perfectly happy fishing for bluegill  with a light fly rod and I have thoroughly enjoyed the occasional carp I’ve tied into. I know the area here has a wealth of fishing I’m just not sure where it is! I would like to start with freshwater sites for now. I do have a canoe so any smallcraft waters  directions would also be appreciated. Also any local publications I should be reading will be greatly appreciated. Also which stamps are worth the purchase on a CA fishing license? Thanks for being computer literate anglers! Phil

Response:

Question:

Excellent advice

Response:

At first I thought this was a good suggestion, but after thinking about it, I’m not too sure.  You will need a bit more 3 weight line in the air to load it the same as the 5 weight, but this is OK since for delicate presentation it wouldn’t hurt to be 10 feet farther away anyway – presumably those trout are spooky?

When I want to use a light outfit, I’m usually fishing with small flies using long leaders and trying to achieve a delicate presentation and a drag free drift. Usually casts are in the short range in order to control drag. It’s generally much more effective to carefully stalk a feeding fish than to make a long cast that’s difficult to control. Likewise, you lose a bit off the top end of the casting distance range if you cast a 6 or 7 weight.  But if you can cast 60 feet with a 5 line, you should be able to get at least 50 out of the heavier ones, give or take a couple feet.

When I fish a heavy outfit, I usually looking for distance and power. I also don’t know how many rods could deal with a haul being overlined by two weights. Willi

Response:

At first I thought this was a good suggestion, but after thinking about it, I’m not too sure.

I’ve been doing this to some degree or another for many years, sometimes on purpose, other times through ignorance. As Jeff puts it, ’tis a compromise, but isn’t most of flyfishing anyway? Seldom have I had such ideal conditions in my fishing that I could pick ONE perfect outfit, even if there was an infinite assortment of equipment waiting for me at the bank from which to choose! Anyway, FWIW, this idea does work to a point. And as for rod damage from overlining, doesn’t fighting a good fish put at least as much or more strain on the rod than a temporary overlining situation? (Legitimate question–not a troll.) Cheers, Rick

Response:

When I want to use a light outfit, I’m usually fishing with small flies using long leaders and trying to achieve a delicate presentation and a drag free drift. Usually casts are in the short range in order to control drag.

I didn’t explicitly state it, but don’t you expect a range of 0 to xx feet from an outfit?  In other words, do you sometimes cast a few feet of line and the leader?  If so, the cast would remain virtually the same with 2 lines less. When I fish a heavy outfit, I usually looking for distance and power. I also don’t know how many rods could deal with a haul being overlined by two weights.

I agree this would be a bad time to use my suggestion.  But as I said, it doesn’t solve all problems, just some. Regards, Jeff

Response:

Anyway, FWIW, this idea does work to a point. And as for rod damage from overlining, doesn’t fighting a good fish put at least as much or more strain on the rod than a temporary overlining situation?

I would certainly think so, except for the backward direction  I don’t know if the "2 way" bending vs 1 way bending means anything at all.  Something to do with the spine perhaps??? Regards, Jeff

Response:

I would certainly think so, except for the backward direction  I don’t know if the "2 way" bending vs 1 way bending means anything at all.  Something to do with the spine perhaps??? Regards, Jeff

With all of the debate on where to place the guides relative to the spine, could that matter much? Cheers, Josh Haag

Response:

If you fish sinking tips and full sink lines a lot, you want the spine to lift them out of the water.  If you’re interested in distance casting, then you know the spine has to be so the power is all delivered on the forward stroke.  Almost sounds like sex. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would certainly think so, except for the backward direction  I don’t know if the "2 way" bending vs 1 way bending means anything at all.  Something to do with the spine perhaps??? Regards, Jeff With all of the debate on where to place the guides relative to the spine, could that matter much? Cheers, Josh Haag

Response:

I did the casting class yesterday at the local flyfishing shop. It was pretty cool. I tried 4 different rod weights with different lines. I seem to do best with a 6wt rod. I even managed a fair imitation of a roll cast. I bought a Reddington 5/6wt rod, a Concept 2 reel and extra spools with some cheapie #5, #6, and #7 lines to practice with. The rod acts so differently with the different lines and lengths. The rod is  a little stiff with the #5 line, until I get a lot of line out, better with the #6 on moderate lengths. #7 does load up the rod fast, but I think it’ll work best for shorter ~very~ accurate casts.

Response:

To anyone who’s past the beginner stage, it’s obvious that different rigs are best for different situations.  A 2 or 3 weight for most delicate presentation, a heavier line for longer casts with more air resistant flies, a shorter rod for brush, a longer rod for nymphing pocket water, etc.etc.  While we would all like about a dozen rods in the gear hound tradition, here is a suggestion for reducing the number of rods you feel you need to buy (at least for those of us who didn’t make $10 million in stocks and forgot to get out by now I think most of us take the rod/line matching too literally.  A line is classified by its weight, and that weight is measured for the first 30 feet of the line only.  Related to this is the fact that a rod’s weight classification is determined by how it casts with exactly that 30 feet of line.  Normally the builder is supposed to *optimize* a given rod weight for 30 feet of a given line wieght.  Stop to think about it for a second and you’ll realize that this doesn’t happen in the real world too often.  In fact a mathmetician would tell you that technically it NEVER happens. Practically speaking, we are in effect constantly changing the fly line weight we are casting, but not the rod weight.  The fact that this works fine proves that rods can handle a number of different line weights at different casting distances. For example, let’s say you have a 6 wgt rod.  When casting 30 feet of 6 wgt line, or about 26 feet of 7 weight line, or about 23 feet of 8 weight line, or about 34 feet of 5 weight line, or about 39 feet of 4 weight line – it’s all the same in terms of line weight loading the rod!  Put another way, casting a 4 line on a 4 rod with a casting range of 10-50 feet is about the same as casting a 6 line on a 4 rod with a casting range of 7-40 feet, roughly. You can use this information to tailor the rod/line combo to match the situation.  And you can do this by changing your line instead of changing your rod in many instances.  Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying we can all do with 1 rod.  But perhaps you can get by with 1 rod instead of 2, or 2 instead of 3, or 4 instead of 6.  Buy multiple lines, spool them up on spare spools for your reel, and in effect you’ve bought a different outfit for $30 or $40 instead of $200 or $400. Another advantage of this approach is that you would never (or very rarely) take a second or third rod on a hike or upstream with you.  On the other hand, it’s very easy to toss a couple extra spools with different line in your vest. All those extra rods you bought don’t as much good if you can only use 1 per trip or "session".  Switching reel spools midstream is a piece of cake. Switching rods midstream ain’t happenin’.  (yes, technically you could drag a tube with you or stash an 8-piece rod in your vest…) So if you feel you need a 3 weight for delicate presentation, a 5 weight for all around use, and a 6 or 7 weight for throwing bigger woolly buggers or smallmouth patterns, git yerself a 5 weight rod and 3 different lines to go with it.  You will need a bit more 3 weight line in the air to load it the same as the 5 weight, but this is OK since for delicate presentation it wouldn’t hurt to be 10 feet farther away anyway – presumably those trout are spooky? Likewise, you lose a bit off the top end of the casting distance range if you cast a 6 or 7 weight.  But if you can cast 60 feet with a 5 line, you should be able to get at least 50 out of the heavier ones, give or take a couple feet. On the other hand, if you are making shorter casts  (for example in pocket water or tighter brush), the 6 or 7 will be a better match with the 5 wgt rod. Bottom line – just changing line weights can’t solve all your problems, but it can be as good or a better solution in a lot of cases, and it’s sure a hell of a lot cheaper than buying that many more rods. Regards, Jeff

Response:

Question:

The New Year is an occasion to separate our past from our future. Let’s gather what is best from our past and use it as a foundation to begin anew. Happy New Year ! — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

The New Year is an occasion to separate our past from our future. Let’s gather what is best from our past and use it as a foundation to begin anew. Happy New Year ! — Ken Fortenberry

yeah, yeah, yeah… if you think for one little second that this here post of yours is gonna save you a whuppin come may, you’re sadly mistaken pal. jeff, tom, wayno, PJ, and i got some special steel tipped wadin’ boots on order to urge you upstream  :) Happy New Year Everyone! Walt — Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com For Book & Print Auctions: http://www.amazon.com/seller/mariebooks Blue Ridge Book Gallery: http://www.bibliofind.com/cgi-bin/texis.exe/s/search/dhome.html?id=33… P.O. Box 5112, Banner Elk, NC 28604

Response:

yeah, yeah, yeah… if you think for one little second that this here post of yours is gonna save you a whuppin come may, you’re sadly mistaken pal. jeff, tom, wayno, PJ, and i got some special steel tipped wadin’ boots on order to urge you upstream  :) Happy New Year Everyone! Walt

Not to worry Ken, if those NC hicks get a little nasty, just hop in the Mazda and you’ll be safe. Peter BTW, your toast had very appropo sentiments for ROFF.

Response:

The New Year is an occasion to separate our past from our future. Let’s gather what is best from our past and use it as a foundation to begin anew.

Wise words, Ken. Happy new year to you and to everyone on ROFF. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

if you think for one little second that this here post of yours is gonna save you a whuppin come may, you’re sadly mistaken pal. … Not to worry Ken, if those NC hicks get a little nasty, just hop in the Mazda and you’ll be safe.

On the one hand we’re talkin’ about an alleged ass whuppin’ by a bunch of geriatric rednecks that think walking to the fridge for a beer constitutes a good days hike and on the other we’re talking about near certain flaming death in a Canadian pick up driven by a certifiable lunatic with a Jeff Gordon delusion. No offense, Peter, but I’ll take my chances with the rednecks. Worst comes to worst I can always outrun ‘em. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

On the one hand we’re talkin’ about an alleged ass whuppin’ by a bunch of geriatric rednecks that think walking to the fridge for a beer constitutes a good days hike and on the other we’re talking about near certain flaming death in a Canadian pick up driven by a certifiable lunatic with a Jeff Gordon delusion. No offense, Peter, but I’ll take my chances with the rednecks. Worst comes to worst I can always outrun ‘em. — Ken Fortenberry

Oh, OK – wrong about the delusion though – pilot. Peter

Response:

um, ken…bring your runnin shoes in may.  i’ll be warmin up the truck and waitin… as a prelude to the new year, yesterday i hauled a whinin waldo down to the stream that i first plonked a fly upon (introduction was via james mcdonald roberts).  it is now designated C&R, fly fishing only. the walk down to the stream is about 30 minutes, back up is about 45, unless you’re draggin a wheezin waldo with you <G, then it’s an hour.  we both thought of you.  i know you will enjoy fishing it in may…it would also be a great place to camp overnight. an incredibly beautiful small stream holding only wild trout. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if you think for one little second that this here post of yours is gonna save you a whuppin come may, you’re sadly mistaken pal. … Not to worry Ken, if those NC hicks get a little nasty, just hop in the Mazda and you’ll be safe. On the one hand we’re talkin’ about an alleged ass whuppin’ by a bunch of geriatric rednecks that think walking to the fridge for a beer constitutes a good days hike and on the other we’re talking about near certain flaming death in a Canadian pick up driven by a certifiable lunatic with a Jeff Gordon delusion. No offense, Peter, but I’ll take my chances with the rednecks. Worst comes to worst I can always outrun ‘em. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

… i know you will enjoy fishing it in may…it would also be a great place to camp overnight. an incredibly beautiful small stream holding only wild trout.

Sounds fantastic. Waldo’s got us signed up to fish Wilson’s the first two days of Spring Fling but let’s plan on this later in the week. I’ve got everything two people need to be comfy streamside overnight except your sleeping bag. Waking up to watch the morning sun battle its way into the dark holler has got to be a hell of a lot better than waking up to the spectacle of Louie’s BVDs. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Ken Fortenberry: Waking up to watch the morning sun battle its way into the dark holler has got to be a hell of a lot better than waking up to the spectacle of Louie’s BVDs.

LOL.  So loud that Henry came running down-stairs to see what the commotion was all about.   Not to worry my flat-lander former friend;  I will wear appropriate attire upon arising each morning from my gentle sleep.  <g Looking forward to seeing those Carolina reprobates in March, and you in May. Dave L.

Response:

Sounds fantastic. Waldo’s got us signed up to fish Wilson’s the first two days of Spring Fling but let’s plan on this later in the week. I’ve got everything two people need to be comfy streamside overnight except your sleeping bag. Waking up to watch the morning sun battle its way into the dark holler has got to be a hell of a lot better than waking up to the spectacle of Louie’s BVDs. — Ken Fortenberry

The N/T project better cut me some slack come else, I’m going to be all colours of green and bust a gut out of envy.  I think I’m feeling a serious flu coming on — in May. (truck’s already packed) Peter

Response:

Sounds fantastic. Waldo’s got us signed up to fish Wilson’s the first two days of Spring Fling but let’s plan on this later in the week.

We need reservations to fish around Boone? Geez, maybe I’ll go to Snowbird instead<g. — Charlie…

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Question:

Much better!  We’ve engaged!  I have no idea what most of that meant, but at least it was an attempt!   I noticed, too, that you switched your point of attack from "don’t read the posts you don’t like" to "geez, the threads sometimes do get tangled; deal with it."  Hmmm?  What might that suggest?   See how I changed the subject header, before responding?  See how you knew exactly what post I was replying to, and yet everybody knows this won’t be a post about fly fishing!  It’s easy and fun, and you can do it, too!   Come on, silly Mikey.  

Response:

i’ve never been so pissed, nor have i been this dissed, to see such a complete off-topic, by this jeff hull myopic, he just doesn’t get the gist…. –wataugan "here’s lookin at ya" walt  :) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Much better!  We’ve engaged!  I have no idea what most of that meant, but at least it was an attempt! I noticed, too, that you switched your point of attack from "don’t read the posts you don’t like" to "geez, the threads sometimes do get tangled; deal with it."  Hmmm?  What might that suggest? See how I changed the subject header, before responding?  See how you knew exactly what post I was replying to, and yet everybody knows this won’t be a post about fly fishing!  It’s easy and fun, and you can do it, too! Come on, silly Mikey.

Response:

I think now George needs to have a poetry section on his web page, I had no idea you guys had such a gift of prose. A how-how- how-how…….ZZ TOP cira1973 TWL….Big Al     i’ve never been so pissed,     nor have i been this dissed,     to see such a complete off-topic,     by this jeff hull myopic,     he just doesn’t get the gist….     –wataugan "here’s lookin at ya" walt  :)         Much better!  We’ve engaged!  I have no idea what most of that meant, but         at least it was an attempt!         I noticed, too, that you switched your point of attack from "don’t read the         posts you don’t like" to "geez, the threads sometimes do get tangled; deal         with it."  Hmmm?  What might that suggest?         See how I changed the subject header, before responding?  See how you knew         exactly what post I was replying to, and yet everybody knows this won’t be         a post about fly fishing!  It’s easy and fun, and you can do it, too!         Come on, silly Mikey.

Response:

    i’ve never been so pissed,     nor have i been this dissed,     to see such a complete off-topic,     by this jeff hull myopic,     he just doesn’t get the gist….     –wataugan "here’s lookin at ya" walt  :)     An excellent color to go with the verse,     If it had been typed in brown it would have been worse.     When playing with words,     ROFF will always have turds,     Whose critique they continue to nurse.     Anthony Ritter

Response:

Tony Ritter schrieb in Nachricht t…     An excellent color to go with the verse,     If it had been typed in brown it would have been worse.     When playing with words,     ROFF will always have turds,     Whose critique they continue to nurse. Hey Tony ! Way to go ! This colour thing opens up completely new dimensions ! Tight lines ! and scintillating colours ! Mike Connor

Response:

Question:

Yesterday my 8 year old daughter(future stasher),lover of XS asked me, while looking at my stash "Mom, When you die, what are you going to leave me?"LOL Laura

Response:

Yesterday my 8 year old daughter(future stasher),lover of XS asked me, while looking at my stash "Mom, When you die, what are you going to leave me?"LOL

My 5-year-old daughter has been using that line, but not so tactfully, lately: "can I have that cup when you’re dead?"  "I can sit in your stitching chair when you’re dead," etc.  I realize this is all an entirely normal developmental stage (separation, beginnings of realization of death, yadda, yadda), but it sure makes a mom’s heart twinge. Joy in PA current projects — "Angel with Lambs" Stoney Creek, "Summer Afternoon" Betsy Stinner, "Flamin’ Chili Peppers Heart" Sweetheart Tree, Bibs for an abuse shelter (e-mail me for more info on how to help)

Response:

I’m LOL too, Laura.  Seriously, I think it is marvelous that she has the potential to be such a world class stashaholic.  One of my daughters loves to stitch, the other just loves to get stitched presents.  I do think we need to infect them at a young age. Congrats, Brynn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yesterday my 8 year old daughter(future stasher),lover of XS asked me, while looking at my stash "Mom, When you die, what are you going to leave me?"LOL Laura

Response:

I solved my 8 year olds problem, by starting up her own stash. She now has a stamped XS (one of my UFO’s) of a bear and last night I took her to A.C.Moore to buy her her own Counted XS of Elmo. She sat on the couch last night & told DH that "she was not going to bed,she had XS to do!" And then went on explaining that she could do hers faster than he could do his. They are both beginners. I’m going to stitch myself my own little padded room for when I get done teaching these 2 hardheads how to stitch.:) Amanda (8 yr old) has a birthday at the end of August. I would like to get her small xs’s in round frames and can’t find them anywhere unless I purchase Christmas any help would be appreciated with this. Laura

Response:

i sent my girls (7-year-old twins) to stitching class at the lns (the counting bee).  since the class was at the end of june, the design was a 4th of july fire cracker designed and taught by debbie from holly house designs. they used perle cotton on 6-count.  they *loved* it. since that class we have been looking for small kits/designs that don’t have many color changes. my son found some kits at the local drug store — the girls need to go with me to pick.  these kits are designed specifically for children  – they are really cute and small, some are stamped and some are counted, each comes with a little round frame for when the piece is completed.  the counted pieces were a dog, smiley face, yin yang(sp?) and a couple more that i can’t remember.  stamped pieces were a globe (the earth), a whale and some others.  i will be at the store this week and will be picking up a couple — if anyone wants the company name email and i’ll let you know! btw, my son decided the fire cracker was pretty cool and we bought a kit of the project for him.  he finished his is two days, molly finished hers the next day…the third is mia.  then, we bought some xs books for magnets and small stuff, some 11 count aida and they are really enjoying it! this is the first time that my children have been in a traditional school. at our old house the school was year round, having 2 1/2 months off is really, really long.  i’m signing them up for every class i can get them to take — next week my son will be learning how to fly fish and tie the flies.  then comes knitting class. jan

Response:

This weekend my 5-1/2 yr old DSD came in and asked me to help her get started on a needlepoint project, so we picked colors from my stash and I cut some canvas for her and told her to go to it.   She started to do a heart because she says "hearts make me smile on rainy days", and the two of us proceeded to work on our projects and watch My Fair Lady – (it was slightly over her head but not unacceptable for her to watch – no bad language no sex etc.) We talked about how much we enjoy spending time like this together and she told me mommy doesn’t ever spend time alone with her (OK this is tricky)  I tried to explain to her that it must be very hard for her taking care of three children by herself to have time for each one.  She said "no, Mommy just talks on the phone to her friends all the time"  Chris confirmed that when they were married she never had any time for him either that her personality is such that she has to constantly be in a social situation – can’t spend "downtime" (which contributed to why they’re divorced) Anyway, her heart is almost finished then she’s going to do the sky, grass and moon.  She asked me if she could keep the colors she’s using – she’s already working on her stash… Bonnie (Bon-Bon)

Response:

We talked about how much we enjoy spending time like this together

I have always said mother, father, sister, brother, son, and daughter were functions not genetics.  You have given her a lifetime gift not only of needlework.

Response:

Question:

Great Post!! I had the advantage of learning an appreciation of nature & fishing from my father at an early age. Although he wasn’t a fly fisherman & we fished for bass, musky, northerns etc, he had a love of wilderness & we shared some wonderful times together. Since leaving my father’s home some thirty years ago & moving to Colorado, I’ve evolved into a fly fisherman through alot of reading, trial & error, and countless hours on the stream. The way I fish today, is very different from the fishing I did with my father, but it is firmly rooted in the appreciation of fish, water & nature I learned from him.   I flyfish in my own way, that is more restrictive than George’s "one" definition. But this is FOR ME. I don’t define flyfishing for others by how I fish.  I would probably be considered to be following the "Art Form.". For me, when things are "right", the pleasure is viseral, elementary & fundamental & may or may not involve catching fish. However, flaming, belittling other people’s ideas or ways of doing things, & self rightuous preachings do not advances one’s cause. In fact the opposite is the result. Like most things, flyfishing is personnal & individual. There are no rules except for those you choose to follow. There is no one right way. Willi

Response:

I never used a strike indicator until about two years ago.  My eyes are deteriorating because of diabetes and I have trouble seeing my leader/line.  I put on a piece of yarn I got from my wife (Lefty’s idea), and was amazed at the strikes I was able to detect.

  I limit the use of strike indicators for those times of day when I would otherwise be unable to see my leader, so I guess i’m as unethical as Dave. Anybody who uses anything to aid his visual capacity must be unethical; I demand that all of you unethical polaroid user/abusers turn yourselves in at once.                                     Charlie

Response:

William Loehman writes:

<<…..However, flaming, belittling other people’s ideas or ways of doing things, & self rightuous preachings do not advances one’s cause. In fact the opposite is the result. A couple of great posts, especially the above.  I learned to fly fish in the 40s from my mom and dad, on the Deerfield, the Westfield, and the Farmington rivers.  We did not have most of the "neat" things available to fly fishermen today.  We didn’t have zingers  or nippers.   And, we didn’t have strike indicators OR Gink.  The flames I have seen on ROFF must come in jest, because if you approve of one innovation (Gink for instance) but disapprove of another (strike indicators, for instance), then you are surely a hypocrite of the first order.   I never used a strike indicator until about two years ago.  My eyes are deteriorating because of diabetes and I have trouble seeing my leader/line.  I put on a piece of yarn I got from my wife (Lefty’s idea), and was amazed at the strikes I was able to detect.  It was as if a was a boy in the 40s, fishing a wet fly!   I also sometimes use the things when fishing a dry, for I find it difficult to see my #16 caddis in fast water.  However, they do affect the drift in a negative way.  Orvis’ Quick Site orange butt leaders are also helpful for me to see the fly. Fly fishing has always been a visceral thing with me (and probably with most other folk also!).  And, it has always been a solitary venture.  You may "go" with a fishing buddy or two, but once you make your first cast, you are "alone".  If I need something to help me continue fly fishing (strike indicators), I will use it and I could shive a git what some narrow-minded bigoted people think of it.   And if you come upon me on a stream and call me "lazy" or "ignorant" or "stupid", well, you will be in a helluva lot of trouble. Dave LaCourse

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great Post!! I had the advantage of learning an appreciation of nature & fishing from my father at an early age. Although he wasn’t a fly fisherman & we fished for bass, musky, northerns etc, he had a love of wilderness & we shared some wonderful times together. Since leaving my father’s home some thirty years ago & moving to Colorado, I’ve evolved into a fly fisherman through alot of reading, trial & error, and countless hours on the stream. The way I fish today, is very different from the fishing I did with my father, but it is firmly rooted in the appreciation of fish, water & nature I learned from him. I flyfish in my own way, that is more restrictive than George’s "one" definition. But this is FOR ME. I don’t define flyfishing for others by how I fish.  I would probably be considered to be following the "Art Form.". For me, when things are "right", the pleasure is viseral, elementary & fundamental & may or may not involve catching fish. However, flaming, belittling other people’s ideas or ways of doing things, & self rightuous preachings do not advances one’s cause. In fact the opposite is the result. Like most things, flyfishing is personnal & individual. There are no rules except for those you choose to follow. There is no one right way. Willi

Somebody finally said "it all" about our sport. Congratulations Willi, you’ve really got a handle on it. Jim

Response:

I’m neither a red neck nor a yuppie, but somewhere in between. I didn’t get started in all this by some movie. I learned long ago on a river in my youth, the hard way. Many fish outings and many lessons over those early years. Today the upstarts buy a ticket at the window and get on the ride. Instantly you have a "Fly fisherman in a can." In gulp they take it all in without ever getting the true taste. They seem to acquire and possess the knowledge of several life times and doing it at hyper speed. Has Fly Fishing become a pastime that resembles a brothel in comparison? I guess most of us want the real genuine thing regardless of the amount of effort that we put forth. For some, the need is so great for success that the real elementary lessons are never really encountered. Today you can have any thing you want as long as you can pay for it. To hell with it if you have to earn it. Another example is that you can buy your way to the summit of Mt. Everest without ever having to work or earn a place on a real team. Somewhere the "Art Form of Fly Fishing" was taken over by the Science form. What does that mean? Every element has been reduced to the science matter of increasing the catch. Why, and to what end do we need the numbers? Our children have petting Zoos, do we need them too? For a number of years I was away from fly fishing, spending my time climbing and sailing. There you had to be a participant and be real to get from one place the next. You had to perform on your own merits and deficiencies and overcome your short comings. Yes, the real art form comes from within. But the science has reduced Fly Fishing to an action vs. reaction, to an event to a counter-event and so on. All the elements have been broken down to their parts to be studied and be reproduced. Blindness comes in many forms. I choose not to be one of the ones looking over the elephant. What George speaks of is the art form and trying to maintain some semblance of the true heritage. Some places are just not mente to be fished. Sort of like peeing on hallow ground. Could the heritage of fly fishing be lost in only one generation? The old-timers while not gods do have much to offer. Do we set them aside, all for the achievements for scientific end? I would rather learn form an old-timer than take the shortcut route via the scientific method. But as time moves on, new meets old and a blending occurs. Hopefully without the distortion of where we came from and adding a price tag to it. My ten year-old son summed it up the other day, "Dad, you know this is the best Sunday school that you take me to." He sees the true art form for what it is and the meaning of being skunked. He will spend more time watching and asking questions than actually fishing. He will keep a fish and throw some back for next time. He hates truck trout and the ones scared by others. We have more to learn from them than is truly realized. But is the evil metastasis occurring before our very eyes? For me its the real thing or sometimes a little hair on the palms. The store bought knowledge you can get it at the edge of most towns in Nevada. — Doug Knight                           metalfab<atefaxinc.com Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $500.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP. Evil flames $1,000.00 per mailing.

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Question:

[...] The only unquestionably true, authentic, genuine trout is the brown, _salmo trutta_.

Not quite true.  There is also Salmo salar, the atlantic salmon which is actually a trout (at least the last time I looked – it may have been reclassified since…) Regards, John — Dr. John Hardie Indiana University Cyclotron Facility

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  <snip a lake trout. I was under the impression that the tell-tale sign of their chardom is the white band on the bottom of their bottom fins,   <snip

I have caught and also seen photographs of brown trout having white (or at least cream-colored) leading edges on some of their fins.  I don’t recall seeing this on the pectoral fins. August K. Watercolor Fish Art http://www.eskimo.com/~augustk

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Brook trout are charr, not trout — James R. Babb – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this?                    thanks.

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[...] The only unquestionably true, authentic, genuine trout is the brown, _salmo trutta_. Not quite true.  There is also Salmo salar, the atlantic salmon which is actually a trout (at least the last time I looked – it may have been reclassified since…) Regards, John — Dr. John Hardie Indiana University Cyclotron Facility

To every one who is watching this thread: Do you think the fish know this?  I hope the brookie’s ego doesn’t get bruised.  So let me get this: some trout and  salmon are really char, but there is a salmon that is really a trout.  White wine from red grapes is called blush, Tomatoes are fruit, but ketchup is a vegetable,  peanuts aren’t nuts or peas.  We park in a driveway and drive on a parkway. Class dismissed! all kidding aside, thanks for the info, this is why NG’s are here so we can learn something and have some fun at it.  

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I note Robert that you are from Maine and commented on brook trout. I am an outdoors columnist in Canada, and am curious about two subspecies of rare trout. One I believe exists in Maine. Do you have any info. on this? I ask because I am interested in trout and enjoy catching (primarily release most) unusual or rare strains.

Is it safe to presume that you’re referring to Blueback trout? Actuaally another artic char subspecies – and a rare if not endangered one, for sure. Or perhaps the Sunapee Golden trout (actually Yet Another Rare Artic Char – Salvilinus alpinus oquassa)? btw: Being a neighbor to our north, are you familiar with the Red Trout – which is native to Quebec – and another member of the Salvilinus alpinus group? I believe all three of these fish are described as "relics" today… Cheers! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.       Alpha Server Engineering < < Parker Street Campus            Maynard, Massachusetts   < <        Charter Member of "Curmudgeons Unlimited"       < <<<<<<<<<<<< AMA 548313 <<<<<<<<<<<< Disclaimer: Opinion and content is mine alone, and unlikely             to be shared by my employer, etc…

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Thanks, John, for starting such an interesting thread on the truth about Brookies… I’d like to suggest that everyone interested in the origins, history, genetic makeup of our favorite fish, read a new book by ichthyologist Nick Karas entitled, appropriately,  BROOK TROUT. It is being published by Lyons & Burford and should be in stores in late March/early April. Email me if you have any questions…  Krista

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If Brookies aren’t trout, they’re doing a damn fine imitation. Anglerboy

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The bull trout and Dolly Varden, which are char, also have the white tipped fins.

So do some strains of rainbows. Though not the hatchery trout I see. John Nesselrode Shawnee, KS

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   Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this?                    thanks.

Brookies aren’t trout … they’re char.

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their chardom is the white band on the bottom of their bottom fins, though I don’t know if other char have this too; would be interested in hearing. The bull trout and Dolly Varden, which are char, also have the white tipped fins. -Burton

In Scotland our native Arctic Char have the beautiful white outline too. Just Pete Marrow   work:  http://www.gsrg.nmh.ac.uk/   play:  http://www.gorp.com/gorp/activity/scottish_ff_faq.htm

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In article    Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this?

Systematic taxonomists classify the fish we know as "brook trout" as belonging to the genus _Salvelinus_ (the chars) and not _Salmo_ (the trouts).  The "lake trout" is also a char, but for some reason the popular name of the "Arctic char" (_Salvelinus alpinus_) recognizes that this fish is indeed a char.  There are minor differences between chars and trouts, which are usually of interest only to fisheries scientists.  The clearest visible difference between chars and trouts is that char have lighter-colored spots on a darker-background body, while trout have dark spots on a lighter body.  Scientific names and classifications shift and change; you probably know that the rainbow trout, long considered a true trout (_Salmo_) was reclassified several years ago and placed among the Pacific salmon (_Oncorhyncus_).  But this reclassification didn’t cause rainbow trout to immediately die after spawning, like all their brethren in _Oncorhynchus_.  A wild, native brook trout is a wonderful creature, no matter what name we give it. Woods Hole, MA   USA

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Brook trout are not true trouts! They are a member of the char family so they are actually the small cousins of lake trout, artic char and dolly varden.   But enough of genetic, they’re great pan fried!                                      Leif da Lucky

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I note Robert that you are from Maine and commented on brook trout. I am an outdoors columnist in Canada, and am curious about two subspecies of rare trout. One I believe exists in Maine. Do you have any info. on this? I ask because I am interested in trout and enjoy catching (primarily release most) unusual or rare strains. Tight Lines Don Stokes Outdoors Columnist

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In article       Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this? Systematic taxonomists classify the fish we know as "brook trout" as belonging to the genus _Salvelinus_ (the chars) and not _Salmo_ (the trouts).  The "lake trout" is also a char, but for some reason the popular name of the "Arctic char" (_Salvelinus alpinus_) recognizes that this fish is indeed a char.  There are minor differences between chars and trouts, which are usually of interest only to fisheries scientists.  The clearest visible difference between chars and trouts is that char have lighter-colored spots on a darker-background body, while trout have dark spots on a lighter body.  Scientific names and classifications shift and change; you probably know that the rainbow trout, long considered a true trout (_Salmo_) was reclassified several years ago and placed among the Pacific salmon (_Oncorhyncus_).  But this reclassification didn’t cause rainbow trout to immediately die after spawning, like all their brethren in _Oncorhynchus_.  A wild, native brook trout is a wonderful creature, no matter what name we give it. Woods Hole, MA   USA

Hi Bob Great bit of information. I hope you don’t mind if I save it for future reference. Good Tying &…. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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: :         Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried : to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have : an opinion on this? : :                         thanks. : We tend to generically treat them as trout, however they are char.  Char are : distinguished by the white at the tips of their fins. I believe they real difference is in the dentition.  Char have teeth on their tongues and true trout (salmo) don’t.  At least I believe thats where the teeth differ. — Isaac(Ike) B. Wilder That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

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: John, : Best to concede early on this one.  Brook trout are not truly trout, but : rather char.  All fall under the family heading of salmonid and then brook : trout fall in the salvelinus genus, rainbows in the oncorhynchus genus and When did rainbows get reclassified?   I would find placing them in the oncorhyncus genus very difficult.  Their physiology is very differnt as well as physical characteristics.  Was this done based on molecular genetics? : browns in the salmo genus. The practical distinction is that char have : light spots on a dark background.  There are skull structure differences. : Char scales are especially tiny in comparison as well.  Hope this helps. : James Ehlers : Uncle Jammer’s Guide Service : Underhill, VT — Isaac(Ike) B. Wilder That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : :         Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried : to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout.  Does anyone have : an opinion on this? : :                         thanks. : We tend to generically treat them as trout, however they are char.  Char are : distinguished by the white at the tips of their fins. I believe they real difference is in the dentition.  Char have teeth on their tongues and true trout (salmo) don’t.  At least I believe that’s where the teeth differ.

Colour is more visible, but teeth are more reliable.  Char (or equally correctly charr) have only a few teeth on the front of the vomer (broadly speaking the palate), and trout have a full set of vomerine teeth. Generally, charr have light spots, and trout have dark spots. I owe these tidbits to Calabi’s "The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Fly-Fishing."

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In article    Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this?

Technically, your friend is right.  The brook trout is a char, genus -salvelinus- .  The other members of this genus are the lake trout, dolly varden, bull trout, arctic char, and European char.  The whole issue of what’s a true trout has recently been stirred up by biologists who have reclassified the rainbow, cutthroat, and golden trout into the genus _oncorrhyncus_ with the Pacific salmon (chinook, coho, chum, et al).  The only unquestionably true, authentic, genuine trout is the brown, _salmo trutta_.      On the other hand, who cares?  The members of the genera salvelinus, salmo, and oncorrhyncus resemble each other closely in general morphology.  If common usage makes brookies, lakers, dollies, bulls, ‘bows, cutts, and brownies all trout, that’s fine with me.  –Roger

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*  The only unquestionably true, authentic, genuine trout is the brown, _salmo trutta_.      Actually, the Atlantic salmon, Salmo salar, also belongs to the same genus as the brown trout.  Just thought I’d add a little more confusion to everyone’s day. el coyotero

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this? John: Don’t think it’s a matter of opinon, as the other more technical minded responder wrote, they are a char. So, if my recollection is correct, is a lake trout. I was under the impression that the tell-tale sign of their chardom is the white band on the bottom of their bottom fins, though I don’t know if other char have this too; would be interested in hearing. Cheers TB

//snip TGB, you’re right regarding Brook trout and lake trout belonging to the char family (salvelinus). Other north american char are bull trout, dolly varden, sunapee, siscowet and – arctic char. All char species have light spots and light bands on their bottom fins; the coloration is more or less pronounced and varies from white (e.g. arctic char) to pale pink  (e.g. dolly varden) and yellowish (e.g. lake trout), depending on the species. /Tord

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        Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this?

John: Don’t think it’s a matter of opinon, as the other more technical minded responder wrote, they are a char. So, if my recollection is correct, is a lake trout. I was under the impression that the tell-tale sign of their chardom is the white band on the bottom of their bottom fins, though I don’t know if other char have this too; would be interested in hearing. Cheers TB The workings of great institutions is mainly the result of a vast mass of routine, petty malice, self-interest, carelessness, and sheer mistake. Only a residual fraction is thought." Santayana

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this? John: Don’t think it’s a matter of opinon, as the other more technical minded responder wrote, they are a char. So, if my recollection is correct, is a lake trout. I was under the impression that the tell-tale sign of their chardom is the white band on the bottom of their bottom fins, though I don’t know if other char have this too; would be interested in hearing.

The bull trout and Dolly Varden, which are char, also have the white tipped fins. -Burton

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        Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this?                         thanks.

We tend to generically treat them as trout, however they are char.  Char are distinguished by the white at the tips of their fins. -Burton

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        Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this?                         thanks.

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John, Best to concede early on this one.  Brook trout are not truly trout, but rather char.  All fall under the family heading of salmonid and then brook trout fall in the salvelinus genus, rainbows in the oncorhynchus genus and browns in the salmo genus. The practical distinction is that char have light spots on a dark background.  There are skull structure differences. Char scales are especially tiny in comparison as well.  Hope this helps. James Ehlers Uncle Jammer’s Guide Service Underhill, VT

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Question:

NOTICE!  NOTICE!  NOTICE! This is just a heads-up that the Mid-Willamette Fly Fishing Club of Corvallis, Oregon, USA, is holding its monthly member meeting on Tuesday, February 4th, 1997.  The meeting will be at CH2M Hill’s facility, at King’s and Walnut, in Corvallis.  We meet at 7:30pm, with a social dinner opportunity at Pizza Hut, across the street, starting at 6:00pm. You don’t need to be a member to attend.  This month’s program will see Keith Burkhart, of The Vally Flyshop, in Salem, OR, demonstrating rod building. Hope to see you there, Charley

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Gee, too bad I didn’t see this yesterday.  I’ve been playing catchup. -Burton – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – NOTICE!  NOTICE!  NOTICE! This is just a heads-up that the Mid-Willamette Fly Fishing Club of Corvallis, Oregon, USA, is holding its monthly member meeting on Tuesday, February 4th, 1997.  The meeting will be at CH2M Hill’s facility, at King’s and Walnut, in Corvallis.  We meet at 7:30pm, with a social dinner opportunity at Pizza Hut, across the street, starting at 6:00pm. You don’t need to be a member to attend.  This month’s program will see Keith Burkhart, of The Vally Flyshop, in Salem, OR, demonstrating rod building. Hope to see you there, Charley

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – major snip Considering we are giving the Electrica Power Companies 100% of our rivers potential energies without setting 10% of it aside for spawning canals around those huge power structures, is insane.  We are allowing them and the high-seas robbers to destroy a multi-billion dollar economy in fishing resources in the interior economy base of this Nation without so much as a whimper, by comparison.  If the organizations that are fighting this problem were as effective as the dams that prevent free swimming fish to go and come on their own . . . these organizations would have won years ago. We need to see more and a stronger dynamic stand against the vandal few against the responsible majority.  It has to stop.  Soon! — Tillamook Country Smoker, Inc.

Bob, you bring up a point that I had not revisited in a long time.  The livestock issue to the proximity of clean waters that is going to voted on needs posting and explaining here as soon as possible.  I have an extensive study done on this years ago that cost my company tens of thousands of dollars called:"Wildlife: An American Ideal & Her Values" It directly attacks the dangers poised against our fisheries and outdoor inventories and how Livestock and other special interests (Logging)is destroying it before our very eyes. We the people need to get control back of our American Outdoors.  There is a way to do it.  I need to hear more of what you have to say Bob and I’m looking for a good reciepe for smoking fish. Thanks and you have my interest. George Gehrke

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I am look for a way to cook steelhead any recipe that have been used would be appreciated. Thanks Roger

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Cut head off and chuck. slice 1-2 lemons into wheels place a sheet of foil onto a cookie sheet Lay wheels o’ lemon onto foil. put salt & pepper into cavity (season to taste) place fish onto wheels o’ lemon pour 1-2 cups of soy sauce onto fish letting it drain into foil close up the foil LOOSELY (you want to make a "oven") place on BBQ (low heat) or in a oven 300, 15-30 minutes. Tasty — Bob Crossley oregoncoast.com I am look for a way to cook steelhead any recipe that have been used

would be appreciated. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Roger

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I am look for a way to cook steelhead any recipe that have been used would be appreciated. Thanks Roger

I hope you mean a recipe for those hatchery steelhead. Sorry if I might offend some out there, but I don’t think we can afford to kill any wild steelhead in North America. Fifty years ago it was OK, as the ratio of steelhead to angler was quite different. I might seem a little blunt, but it is probably because I have fished for steelhead for the last 35 years and have watched them fad away at an alarming rate. Lose of habitat from dams, hatcheries, logging, agriculture and general de-watering is the problem, not angling. When there are not many wild steelhead left, uncontrolled angling can be a problem. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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major snip Considering we are giving the Electrica Power Companies 100% of our rivers potential energies without setting 10% of it aside for spawning canals around those huge power structures, is insane.  We are allowing them and the high-seas robbers to destroy a multi-billion dollar economy in fishing resources in the interior economy base of this Nation without so much as a whimper, by comparison.  If the organizations that are fighting this problem were as effective as the dams that prevent free swimming fish to go and come on their own . . . these organizations would have won years ago. We need to see more and a stronger dynamic stand against the vandal few against the responsible majority.  It has to stop.  Soon! Mr. George Gehrke

I agree with you G, but in addition to the Columbia Basin problem, we need to look at how we treat our river systems as a whole to save our fisheries.  In my area, gravel harvesting from historical spawning bed areas have decimated not only the Chum Salmon run, but also the Sea Run Cutthroat and the Winter & Summer runs of  wild Steelhead.  This area is also a major Dairy producer, i.e.. cattle run off right into the rivers.  We have no dams, but the problems facing the "wild" fish is just as formidable. Tackling the Dam problem is a very important issue, but an overall introspection into how we affect our rivers is also very worthy. On Oregon’s Nov. 5th ballot is a measure that addresses the issue of cattle in proximity to bodies of water.  The measure is not exactly a cure all, but it is a "measure" in the right direction. — Bob Crossley Tillamook Country Smoker, Inc.

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Cut head off and chuck. slice 1-2 lemons into wheels place a sheet of foil onto a cookie sheet Lay wheels o’ lemon onto foil. put salt & pepper into cavity (season to taste) place fish onto wheels o’ lemon pour 1-2 cups of soy sauce onto fish letting it drain into foil close up the foil LOOSELY (you want to make a "oven") place on BBQ (low heat) or in a oven 300, 15-30 minutes. Tasty

I’ve used a similar recipe with an addition and a change.  Cut up some zuchinni, carrots, celery, or other similar veggies and stuff the cavity. Instead of foil use baking parchement paper and seal it up tight.  Cooking time is about the same and when you’re done you’ll also have some vegetables for a side dish that are perfectly steamed.  The veggies also contribute some natural juices so you don’t need quite as much soy sauce. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am look for a way to cook steelhead any recipe that have been used would be appreciated. Thanks Roger I hope you mean a recipe for those hatchery steelhead. Sorry if I might offend some out there, but I don’t think we can afford to kill any wild steelhead in North America. Fifty years ago it was OK, as the ratio of steelhead to angler was quite different. I might seem a little blunt, but it is probably because I have fished for steelhead for the last 35 years and have watched them fad away at an alarming rate. Lose of habitat from dams, hatcheries, logging, agriculture and general de-watering is the problem, not angling. When there are not many wild steelhead left, uncontrolled angling can be a problem. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

I think the greatest theif of Steelhead and Western Salmon Species is on the high seas and especially in the Gulf of Alaska by the Japanese and Commercial Netters.  The plunder is a criminal activity that boggles the mind.  The criminals go unpunished and the thief is flaggrant.  The criminal to the species declines are not the American Rodders who pay huge license fees but the former culprits I speak of.  The additional crime is the high-seas-netters not only extermine, what is left over to return to the spawning beds leaves ALL OF US with a guilt trip that is not of our doing.  I resent that label forced upon the responsible spirit of all fly fishermen who have little or nothing to do with those native salmon and/or steelhead families that are now going extinct. I agree about the dams being a major problem and the only reason that they continue to decimate the spawning rights of wildlife is because we are not organized.  We deal in fractured groups but we are not talking to the American People where our real power-base resides. We could have had spawing channels around ALL our dams on the Columbia River Drainage years ago and it would only take copper scent rods to get all the fish around and over all the dams at their pace and wishes, but no . . . the answer is too obvious and too simple. At least, this is my opinion.  Bill Kiene’s displeasure is certainly well founded.  I am for a serious conference that augments any positive effort to get those canals built in short order.  They do NOT have to be studied to death, they work and they are long overdue.  I have flown over every dam along the Columbia River to the Pacific ocean and we certainly have the land available or obtainable to get this project and problem resolved. Considering we are giving the Electrica Power Companies 100% of our rivers potential energies without setting 10% of it aside for spawning canals around those huge power structures, is insane.  We are allowing them and the high-seas robbers to destroy a multi-billion dollar economy in fishing resources in the interior economy base of this Nation without so much as a whimper, by comparison.  If the organizations that are fighting this problem were as effective as the dams that prevent free swimming fish to go and come on their own . . . these organizations would have won years ago. We need to see more and a stronger dynamic stand against the vandal few against the responsible majority.  It has to stop.  Soon! Mr. George Gehrke

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Question:

I would love to here your experiences. I fish out of Key West every year and will be down there this year from the week of June 23.  I know it will be a lot of work for you, but reading your journal will get me even more excited about my trip.   Thanks for the offer Bob Price

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Me too! Bill Battles

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I didn’t post yesterday because I was tired of reporting no fishing. In fact, I was tired of not going fishing, the kind of tired you get when you sleep or think too much. Today I took out Nicholas V., who I met in Belize last fall.  I had a one-day cancellation and he came down from NY.  So I slipped on my long underwear (it was 58 degrees when I got up) and said to myself, "I’m going to be miserable all day long and I’m going to love it." The water is very cold from a barrage of cold fronts and even though this should be the best permit fishing of the year, I didn’t expect to see much today.  (Del B. called yesterday and said they didn’t see a fish all day.) The wind was 10-15 out of the northeast and there was a clear blue sky.  We set out for a warm spot (some flats are warmer than others, or at least the fish think so) on the oceanside about 18 miles west of Key West, began fishing a flat on a low incoming tide, poled about 2 miles and saw nothing.  We then ran into the lakes and poled a strip bank looking for ‘cudas, and lo and behold ran across a couple of pairs of permit.  We weren’t prepared to cast to them, but we did hook a decent cuda on a mylar-tube fly that I like.  We decided to keep cuda fishing because Nick just wanted to hook anything and neither of us thought we’d see many permit.  We checked another basin for cudas, then another strip bank where we saw another couple of pairs of permit.  We then ran out to an oceanside flat to look on the high outgoing, saw nothing on one flat, and one tailing, mudding permit of about 12 lbs. on the next.  Nick had a little bit of difficulty seeing him but the permit could see Nick’s bright yellow raincoat just fine, it turns out. We ran down to two more oceanside flats and saw a couple of permit on each one, but they were very spooky.  Finally we ran to a large gulfside flat for the high outgoing and had a couple of good shots at permit, but the water was off color and Nick didn’t pick them up right away. On the way home we stopped and cast at a couple of cobias on rays, and then spent about half-an-hour taking turns practice casting and talking about what bad casters we were before heading home.   Marshall Cutchin

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Is anyone interested in a daily account of what a Florida Keys flats guide experiences?  I have had this idea for quite a while: to publish in the newsgroup what happens on consecutive days of fishing so that readers would see beyond the hype and, perhaps, into the more sublime and humorous aspects of guided trips in the Lower Florida Keys.  This would only work if I posted every day, so it would require some stamina on my part and I would only do it if there were enough interest.   Marshall Cutchin

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Cool. I’d read it.

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I would be very interested. I know it would be alot of work.

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Is anyone interested in a daily account of what a Florida Keys flats guide experiences?  I have had this idea for quite a while: to publish in the newsgroup what happens on consecutive days of fishing so that readers would see beyond the hype and, perhaps, into the more sublime and humorous aspects of guided trips in the Lower Florida Keys.  This would only work if I posted every day, so it would require some stamina on my part and I would only do it if there were enough interest.   Marshall Cutchin

I’ll read it.       Gene

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Is anyone interested in a daily account of what a Florida Keys flats guide experiences?  I have had this idea for quite a while: to publish in the newsgroup what happens on consecutive days of fishing so that readers would see beyond the hype and, perhaps, into the more sublime and humorous aspects of guided trips in the Lower Florida Keys.  This would only work if I posted every day, so it would require some stamina on my part and I would only do it if there were enough interest.   Marshall Cutchin

Marshall, I for one, would certainly be interested! Please post. Jack Wheeler

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Marshall – would very much enjoy reading such reports, particularly because I’ve never had the opportunity to experience those activities myself.  Since I hope to try the Keys for bonefish someday, it would provide insights for future planning.  In my view, no need for lengthy essays – just a brief summary and an observation or two would be fun to read, helpful, and hopefully not so burdensome for you.                                             Mark Faulkner

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Who would turn down real time FF info?  Not me.  I’d even read it!  I might suggest a standardized "Re:" so everyone will know it’s you.  Great idea, and I look forward to seeing your posts. Bill Battles

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Is anyone interested in a daily account of what a Florida Keys flats guide experiences?  I have had this idea for quite a while: to publish in the newsgroup what happens on consecutive days of fishing so that readers would see beyond the hype and, perhaps, into the more sublime and humorous aspects of guided trips in the Lower Florida Keys.  This would only work if I posted every day, so it would require some stamina on my part and I would only do it if there were enough interest. Marshall Cutchin

Me, me!  This would be a lot of fun.  Go for it.

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Marshall, Count me in the please post column "The true angler is always content to fish alone" Brian Di Carlo

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Is anyone interested in a daily account of what a Florida Keys flats guide experiences?  I have had this idea for quite a while: to publish in the newsgroup what happens on consecutive days of fishing so that readers would see beyond the hype and, perhaps, into the more sublime and humorous aspects of guided trips in the Lower Florida Keys.  This would only work if I posted every day, so it would require some stamina on my part and I would only do it if there were enough interest.   Marshall Cutchin

Like many others that post on this newsgroup, I am looking forward to flyfishing in the Keys. I would enjoy reading what it is like from the guide’s perspective even if I see some of myself in the less gifted (from the flyfishing standpoint) clients you guide.

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