Question:

I know this isn’t the right group to post this on, but I’m too impatient to go through the hassle of subscribing to another newsgroup just for one (for now) question.  And a lot of you do regreational flying, so might be more familiar with this issue. I have read FAR 73 here: http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_14/14cfr73_00.html and cannot find where it describes, specifies, or even implies what sorts of areas are restricted or prohibited.  Am I missing something? This came up in a discussion at work on fishing remote lakes.  The fisherman in question thinks it’s illegal to fly in to certain remote lakes, say in designated wilderness areas, wildlife refuges, National parks, etc.  I think he’s right, but where can I see what specifically is allowed, and what areas specifically are restricted or prohibited? David

Response:

That information is depicted graphically on the aviation charts, and temporary restrictions are published in the NOTAMS (notices to airmen). Best regards, Rob Housman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know this isn’t the right group to post this on, but I’m too impatient to go through the hassle of subscribing to another newsgroup just for one (for now) question.  And a lot of you do regreational flying, so might be more familiar with this issue. I have read FAR 73 here: http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_14/14cfr73_00.html and cannot find where it describes, specifies, or even implies what sorts of areas are restricted or prohibited.  Am I missing something? This came up in a discussion at work on fishing remote lakes.  The fisherman in question thinks it’s illegal to fly in to certain remote lakes, say in designated wilderness areas, wildlife refuges, National parks, etc.  I think he’s right, but where can I see what specifically is allowed, and what areas specifically are restricted or prohibited? David

Response:

Check with the manageing agency for the area you want to fly into.  The BLM, Forest Service, etc.  These governmental agencies set the regs for use within their holdings.  I don’t think the FAA has an interest in your question. To partially answer though, no motorized vehicles or even bicycles are allowed in designated USFS wilderness areas.  This would include aircraft landing or taking off.  Some refuges are restricted, some aren’t, an example being some located in Alaska.  Anyway, for specific restrictions, check with the managment.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know this isn’t the right group to post this on, but I’m too impatient to go through the hassle of subscribing to another newsgroup just for one (for now) question.  And a lot of you do regreational flying, so might be more familiar with this issue. I have read FAR 73 here: http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_14/14cfr73_00.html and cannot find where it describes, specifies, or even implies what sorts of areas are restricted or prohibited.  Am I missing something? This came up in a discussion at work on fishing remote lakes.  The fisherman in question thinks it’s illegal to fly in to certain remote lakes, say in designated wilderness areas, wildlife refuges, National parks, etc.  I think he’s right, but where can I see what specifically is allowed, and what areas specifically are restricted or prohibited? David

Response:

Question:

The author made it sound as though anybody with an ounce of sense could catch trout on a fly rod, and it was with that optimism that I had my brother’s rod tip repaired, borrowed a pair of rubber waders from my company’s field dept., and gave it a try.   The author was correct, and I did in fact catch a trout that day, following his advice. . . .  This sound familiar to anybody?

I cannot help with author or title, but run parallel except that I still have the book. 1.  In or before 1967, browsing as usual among second-hand books, I was attracted by Ray Bergman’s Trout (even though I fished seldom, after a summer in northern Ontario) so bought it. 2.  In or about 1970 a girlfriend bought a new car and on delivery wanted a longish trip:  so we drove from Ottawa towards Lake Placid, which I had heard of as a tourist destination: and stopped at a pretty waterfall just beyond the village.  A bronze plaque told us this was the Ausable River and I remembered reading about it in Bergman as famous for trout. 3.  Before the end of the year I got a $9.99 Japanese bamboo rod at the local Canadian Tire store, we borrowed a camping outfit (i.e. squashed an 8×12 ft. canvas tent into the back of a Beetle) and I had landed my first trout on a #14 BWO about 100 ft. upstream of the Hwy. 86 bridge. I could show you the spot to within two feet. I still treasure the book. — Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)

Response:

I can’t remember what it was, so I thought I’d tap the remaining memories of this crowd to see if my description shakes out a title & author.   See, I’d been a spin fisherman for a long time; but when my younger brother left town, he sort of bequeathed to me an old HI glass fly rod.   In some coming together of the cosmos, I picked up a copy of a book on fly fishing one day and began reading.   The author made it sound as though anybody with an ounce of sense could catch trout on a fly rod, and it was with that optimism that I had my brother’s rod tip repaired, borrowed a pair of rubber waders from my company’s field dept., and gave it a try.   The author was correct, and I did in fact catch a trout that day, following his advice. The book itself was not a long or excessively technical book IIRC, and one feature about the book that stands out in my mind was his opinion that streamers were the ticket to make any newbie successful.  (My first was on a little rainbow trout streamer.)   I’ll be darned if I can remember the name of either the book or the author, though. This sound familiar to anybody? Joe F.

Response:

Question:

I believe their was a case a couple of years ago concerning an Angel Flight. One of their aircraft had broken down while on a mission in a remote area. One of the other Angel Flight volunteer pilots flew a mechanic in his own aircraft to repair the downed aircraft. The FAA gave this pilot a violation for flying a "commercial" flight without the proper ratings. Their reasoning was since the Mechanic was being paid to repair the other aircraft that made it a commercial flight operation by definition and that it did not fall under the Angel Flight exclusion even though the pilot received no compensation and donated his time and aircraft expenses. Apparently a charter service at their home field had complained to the FAA because they felt they should have flown and been paid for the repair flight. This situation is similar and would probably end the same way. If the FAA doesn’t have it brought to their attention, they most likely won’t come looking and won’t really care. But, if someone like an airport manager, FBO, or charter service complains that their losing revenue, then the results will usually be in favor of the commercial operation and against the individual. Jim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I believe that Rick Cremer once said there is no such thing, no such ruling, no record of action against a pilot for such a thing. Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire. You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

What is the compensation that he or anyone else is getting? Who hired him? I still don’t understand the problem. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think a reading from the FAR’s might clarify my earlier statement. Sec. 61.113   Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command. (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft. (b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if: (1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and (2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire. The (b)(1) is what I referred to, it’s not clear that if you do it for free it’s ok or not.  I know that I have had FSDO people tell me it’s not ok, but then I know they don’t always get it right either.  They told me that the flight time you accumulate while doing this counts as payment, who knows, I certainly don’t! A normal procedure when dealing with regulations is that if it’s not stated as being unlawful then that means it’s lawful.  However, with the FAA you never can tell, they can make their own rules and interpretations up on the fly, so I’d always play safe and not do it. However, it’s your certificate and if you have a beef with the fee’s, then don’t pay them and let the FBO do what they want.  You could always clear it with your local FSDO and see what they say, and as for Angel Flights and commercial license.  It’s like CAP from what I understand, there are wavers in place for this type of operation. Let us know what the FSDO says, and then if the FBO isn’t charging others I’d tell him to go screw himself, assuming FSDO says a private is all you need. — Legal Warning: Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to me – consider this an official notice.

Response:

I still don’t understand what is particularly grey about this. What compensation is he or anyone else getting? And what does "commonality of purpose" have to do with it? Doesn’t the FAA have the burden of proof that a violation occurred? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire.<< It’s not a reg. As in many cases where the FAA takes administrative action the office of the Chief Councel makes a determination of what a reg means and what to do to a pilot. Especially in a grey area. This entire thread comes through here about every year. Searching the Google newsgroup archives has most of it. I have the case law copied somewhere. I just went through a bunch of old data, couldn’t find it but sure did clean out my desk. KG

Response:

Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could

find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire.<< It’s not a reg. As in many cases where the FAA takes administrative action the office of the Chief Councel makes a determination of what a reg means and what to do to a pilot. Especially in a grey area. This entire thread comes through here about every year. Searching the Google newsgroup archives has most of it. I have the case law copied somewhere. I just went through a bunch of old data, couldn’t find it but sure did clean out my desk. KG

Response:

 It figures a guy with a cherokee 180 would get an F150.  Those are girls toys. When you step up to a Skylane you can get the F250 with the V10, I’ll never go back to the small trucks.

Pussy.  F-350 Triton V-10 pulling a 33ft double slide fifth wheel. Going from San Antonio to Oshkosh this July… Russell Kent

Response:

Anyone really care?  You are doing your friend a favor and if you feel like it is worth it, ask him to chip in by paying the landing fee. The Feds aren’t going to be there looking over your should just waiting to catch you allowing someone else to pay your landing fee. You know most won’t even care. If you were recieving compensation for doing this that would be one thing but you’re not. Even then they would have to catch you. Let him pay the landing fee. If the Feds want to take away your license for something they will, period. There won’t be any stopping them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for you all that was just brought to my attention yesterday. Here is the scenario. I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. Yesterday the local airport that I fly into to pick him up and drop him off, informed us when I went to pick him up that I would have to start paying a $10.00 landing fee when I pick him up and when we return. Or purchase a minimum or 20 gallons of fuel each time I land. Well the fuel is not possible since I am flying a Cessna 150, lest I chance not having much fuel when I arrive and it just does not burn that much during these trips anyway. Are there any rules that truly spell out when a landing fee is appropriate. The airport manager said my friend should pay the fees and not me, but seems like that would not be legal as it would imply that I am a commercial pilot which I am not. I tried to explain all of this to the manager, but she would not change her mind. Thanks, Frank

Response:

My 250 and your 350 have the same frame, of course the engines are the same also.  You just have more lug nuts to take off when you get a flat. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  It figures a guy with a cherokee 180 would get an F150.  Those are girls toys. When you step up to a Skylane you can get the F250 with the V10, I’ll never go back to the small trucks. Pussy.  F-350 Triton V-10 pulling a 33ft double slide fifth wheel. Going from San Antonio to Oshkosh this July… Russell Kent

Response:

I think a reading from the FAR’s might clarify my earlier statement. Sec. 61.113   Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command. (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft. (b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if: (1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and (2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire. The (b)(1) is what I referred to, it’s not clear that if you do it for free it’s ok or not.  I know that I have had FSDO people tell me it’s not ok, but then I know they don’t always get it right either.  They told me that the flight time you accumulate while doing this counts as payment, who knows, I certainly don’t! A normal procedure when dealing with regulations is that if it’s not stated as being unlawful then that means it’s lawful.  However, with the FAA you never can tell, they can make their own rules and interpretations up on the fly, so I’d always play safe and not do it. However, it’s your certificate and if you have a beef with the fee’s, then don’t pay them and let the FBO do what they want.  You could always clear it with your local FSDO and see what they say, and as for Angel Flights and commercial license.  It’s like CAP from what I understand, there are wavers in place for this type of operation. Let us know what the FSDO says, and then if the FBO isn’t charging others I’d tell him to go screw himself, assuming FSDO says a private is all you need. — Legal Warning: Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to me – consider this an official notice.

Response:

You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Bullsquat. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend.

What I would ask is this, are you going to this site anyways, in other words, if he wasn’t along for the ride, would you still go? If not, what you’re doing requires a commercial.  That’s why you are getting the landing fee charge.  It’s common around here for a landing fee only on commercial ops, private is usually free in my neck of the woods. — Legal Warning: Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to me – consider this an official notice.

Response:

I agree with Jim….as I usually do, being a fellow Piper owner…anyway… I find this type of thread always amusing…you can’t do that because it is for ‘hire’ or in this case ‘no commonality of purpose’. With all due respect to Mr. Gruber and everyone else who feels that way…to quote my friend down south…BULLSQUAT! ALL my flights are for ME.  I fly for fun, not profit, I love to go different places.  So, your honor, when Mr. X asked me if I would take him to BFE, I said, sure, having never been there, I looked forward to going and checking it out.  I then decided with or without him, I was gonna explore BFE, and started to make my flight plans.  Just so happens since he was still wanting to go to BFE, and I was wanting to go someplace new, we both had a common purpose for the flight..we BOTH wanted to go to BFE equally….thus, I did not fly him to BFE, he came with me on yet another $100 hamburger run to someplace I had not yet been….BFE…and that your honor is my story….   Its true!  Bottom Line…..have fun and fly safe!!! Garrett – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights. Bullsquat. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved. Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with it to me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

Frank, you are going to be beaten bloody by gnats, on this topic… First, you are in a somewhat grey area of the regs… You say you are donating your time and gas and I accept that… Others, who are hostile to you or your friend for whatever reason, will say you are performing a commercial flight operation, air taxi, without the ratings, etc… My position is, that as long as you are not being paid in any fashion other than your own satisfaction, it is your airplane to fly wherever and whenever, ala. Angel Flights, etc… <still a free country… If you choose to arrange your schedule with your friend so he can accomplish his own purposes, that is between you two and it is still a Part 91 flight… I have a friend that I routinely fly with… My plans usually are contingent upon his needs, when we leave, when we come back, etc..  The Professional Hand Wringers (PHW) are all over this board, and the minutae artists among them would try to make the case that if I wait even five minutes for him, it is now magically an air taxi operation and I’m in violation, yadda, yadda, yadda, all over the place… Now the PHW will be all over you, so you, like Caesars wife, have to be above reproach that what you are doing is your own personal satisfaction, that you are not using the trips to  build hours towards a commercial rating, that the friend is not sending you and the wife on a missionary trip to Guatemala <or where ever, etc…  nada, nothing, sparkling clean… Also, the friend better not be hiring an air taxi when you are not available… That would be tough to explain away if the FAA got into it… The toughest part is the airport… Obviously, it is common knowledge that you are flying him in the performance of HIS work… From the airports point of view that constitutes a commercial activity originating at the airport, whether you get paid or not… The analogy here, is an employee of a corporation may fly the corporate plane on company business, without his being a commercial pilot… That does not protect him/them from paying the commercial operations fee when that plane, with the corporate logo all over it, lands and taxi’s in to the fbo… From  my perspective, have the friend pay the fee, since it is his activity that is commercial, not yours, or make an arrangement that you will buy the 20 gallons of gas on some fixed schedule, or otherwise get an agreement with her… <I’m actually against anything other than his paying the fee, because money appearing out of your hand in any fashion makes YOU look like a commercial operation Or find another airport and keep your mouth(s) shut <probably the best solution… I would advise against making a major fight out of it with the airport manager… She has the ultimate weapon of filing a complaint with the FAA that you are running a clandestine air taxi… Not good – not fun – lotsa grief…. Cheers  …  Denny

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for you all that was just brought to my attention yesterday. Here is the scenario. I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. Yesterday the local airport that I fly into to pick him up and drop him off, informed us when I went to pick him up that I would have to start paying a $10.00 landing fee when I pick him up and when we return. Or purchase a minimum or 20 gallons of fuel each time I land. Well the fuel is not possible since I am flying a Cessna 150, lest I chance not having much fuel when I arrive and it just does not burn that much during these trips anyway. Are there any rules that truly spell out when a landing fee is appropriate. The airport manager said my friend should pay the fees and not me, but seems like that would not be legal as it would imply that I am a commercial pilot which I am not. I tried to explain all of this to the manager, but she would not change her mind. Thanks, Frank

Response:

Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.

Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with it to me.<< That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not. Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight. Karl ATP LR-Jet CE-500 BE-300 15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot

Response:

I think you are stretching the interpretation a bit.  If a friend suggests that the fishing is good in MT, and we fly there in my plane, it is not a commercial flight.  To be a commercial flight the person/entity providing the flight must receive something in return. I would agree with your interpretation if they were splitting costs. Mike MU-2   Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.   Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with   it to me.<<   That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not.   Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight.   Karl   ATP   LR-Jet   CE-500   BE-300   15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. What I would ask is this, are you going to this site anyways, in other words, if he wasn’t along for the ride, would you still go? If not, what you’re doing requires a commercial.  That’s why you are getting the landing fee charge.  It’s common around here for a landing fee only on commercial ops, private is usually free in my neck of the woods.

Bullsquat. If one could not fly someone for free when there was no commonality of purpose, Angel Flight could not exist. As long as he does not receive any compensation, he should be OK. Given the nature of the radio station (Christian non-profit), Frank may be entitled to deduct his out of pocket costs (or even perhaps the wet local rate for a C150) from his taxes. The ‘landing charge’ seems more like an FBO ramp fee to me. -Greg

Response:

 It figures a guy with a cherokee 180 would get an F150.  Those are girls toys. When you step up to a Skylane you can get the F250 with the V10, I’ll never go back to the small trucks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim,    I kinda wondered about you until I saw your signature line… even though I knew you flew a Cherokee. You proved yourself with the Ford F-150 rating though.  Carry on!

Response:

I believe that Rick Cremer once said there is no such thing, no such ruling, no record of action against a pilot for such a thing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire. You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

Jim,     I kinda wondered about you until I saw your signature line… even though I knew you flew a Cherokee. You proved yourself with the Ford F-150 rating though.  Carry on! — Joe Schneider Cherokee 8437R Advanced F-150 Supercab rating Numerous other spamcans not worth mentioning     Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.     Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with     it to me.<<     That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not.     Snip Karl’s nonsense…     Karl     ATP     LR-Jet     CE-500     BE-300     15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot     Ooooh!     —     Jim Fisher     Cherokee 140     Warrior II     Cherokee 180     Cessna 172 Once (Under Duress)     Ford F-150

Response:

The toughest part is the airport… Obviously, it is common knowledge that you are flying him in the performance of HIS work… From the airports point of view that constitutes a commercial activity originating at the airport, whether you get paid or not…

That may or may not be the case here. Frank did not say that they are charging the landing fee because it’s a commercial operation. Sounds to me like they have decided to charge fees for everybody. The only place "commercial" came into it was the proposal to have his friend pay the landing fee. And that is where it gets sticky. If he does so, he’s contributing to the cost of the flight and the "commonality of purpose" becomes an issue (as others have said). George Patterson,  N3162Q.

Response:

Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

  Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.   Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with   it to me.<<   That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not.   So another pilot and I are planning to fly to Mooselips, Nevada for a little fun.  He’s interested in brunettes.  I have a big thing (okay, maybe an average thing . . . okay, maybe . . . never mind) for blondes.     There’s no "commonality of purpose" since blondes and red heads are obviously from different planets.  So I have to foot the entire bill, right?   Okay, you have to go to a Troll convention in Californy.  I need to go there for a He-Man High Wing Hater convention.  I’m not sure that I’d wanna fly with you anyway but if we could, we couldn’t, right?   Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight.   So, can I kinda hint around at the idea until my friend gets the message about going?  Does this need to be in writing?  Will a handshake count as a "ruling" or do we have to slice our palms and share blood?   Incidentally, the word "commonality" is not mentioned in the FAR’s anywhere.  Yeah, I was suckered enough to look it up and am pretty sure I pselled it right.   Karl   ATP   LR-Jet   CE-500   BE-300   15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot   Ooooh!   —   Jim Fisher   Cherokee 140   Warrior II   Cherokee 180   Cessna 172 Once (Under Duress)   Ford F-150

Response:

That doesn’t agree with what I learned. Where in part 91 does it say that? Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.

Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with it to me.<< That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not. Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight. Karl ATP LR-Jet CE-500 BE-300 15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot

Response:

I have a question for you all that was just brought to my attention yesterday. Here is the scenario. I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. Yesterday the local airport that I fly into to pick him up and drop him off, informed us when I went to pick him up that I would have to start paying a $10.00 landing fee when I pick him up and when we return. Or purchase a minimum or 20 gallons of fuel each time I land. Well the fuel is not possible since I am flying a Cessna 150, lest I chance not having much fuel when I arrive and it just does not burn that much during these trips anyway. Are there any rules that truly spell out when a landing fee is appropriate. The airport manager said my friend should pay the fees and not me, but seems like that would not be legal as it would imply that I am a commercial pilot which I am not. I tried to explain all of this to the manager, but she would not change her mind. Thanks, Frank

Response:

Question:

A few months ago I got my cats The Feathered Flyer in the deluxe package with 5 different attachments. It came with one already attached. It was 2 black-tipped chicken feathers and a pink downy feather. It wasn’t long before the delicate downy feather broke. But the 2 chicken feathers took an awful lot of abuse. Somehow it became a nightly ritual that before I was allowed to go to bed, I had to swing the fishing pole. Djoser would wait, bright-eyed, on his perch by the bed and Amber would eagerly walk beside me as I approached the bed. Then the bird would fly. The boys would perform the most amazing acrobatics (are there any Cat Olympics?) trying to snag the bird. The pole is bent trying to get the bird loose to fly again and the feathers quickly became bedraggled. But they love it. Sheba usually sits on her cardboard scratcher watching the action. Occasionally I would swing it her way and she would make a pass at it. But she has never shown the interest that the boys do. One morning I was waking up with my first cup of coffee when I heard a rather strangled mreow like Sheba does when she has her mouth full of prey. So I go to check on her and find her dragging the flyer with her mouth full of feathers! I have often come home to find the Flyer in the middle of the floor but assumed it was the boys playing with it. Now I know it is Sheba. Dragging it on the floor , it has a tail, and she loves anything with a tail like my necklaces or a drawstring, etc. A couple days ago one of the feathers broke off and today the other one broke. The shafts had a lot of teeth marks  and bends and the feathery parts were mangled. So I gave the poor things a decent burial. The new attachment is a violet section of boa and Sheba loves it. She got a death grip on it and was busy killing it. I finally managed to get it to try out on the boys. they played for awhile but weren’t as interested. It is too soft. The chicken feathers would make a swishing sound as they flew, like a real bird. Maybe I will have to get another flyer with chicken feathers just for the boys. CATherine

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Sheba . . .has never shown the interest that the boys do.

Do you suppose this is a boy/girl thing? Max (RB) loved this toy deeply, as your boys do, and would always respond with aerobatics. Clementine, the current Queen of The Household, watches it fly by and says "Yes, Dear, that’s very nice, and I’m glad you enjoy it, but it’s really not my sort of thing". As a kitten, though, she’d wait for it to come within range and then snatch it from my hand and go tearing down the hall with the "tail" bouncing wildly. I quickly learned my part in this game was to follow, retrieve the bird, and repeat until my legs would no longer respond.

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Question:

0] : Vision is very important in flyfishing. : …. : I wear "progressive" bifocals for everyday getting around, but at 8", my : knot-tying distance, I can see best with no glasses at all. That’s why I : find it most convenvient to wear single-prescription (not bifocal) : glasses for fishing. They’re securely fastened around my head with a : strap. I just drop them to my chest to tie knots or extract hooks from fish. : I wear contact lenses for one and only one activity — playing tennis. : They’re just perfect for that, but they’d be awful for fishing. I can’t : see close-up with contacts, so I’d have to wear an "extra strong" pair : of reading glasses for close work. That means I’d need (1) contact : lenses, (2) nonprescription sunglasses, and (3) extra-strong reading : glasses. Why bother? : — rw to be ornery, I’ll disagree with you. I wear contacts for about -4 diopter nearsightedness and am in my 50’s, so I have about the same problem as you. I prefer the hard contacts because they pretty much take out some considerable astigmatism I would otherwise have. My solution is to use your items (2) and (3) combined in one package which is sold as "Fisherman’s Bifocals"–polarized window glass on top and clear +3 diopter magnifiers in the bottom. Which brings up a point, that for knot tying, hook threading etc., what’s needed is considerably more magnification than is wanted for comfortable reading, in my case about +2. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

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I wear contact lenses for one and only one activity — playing tennis. They’re just perfect for that, but they’d be awful for fishing. I can’t see close-up with contacts, so I’d have to wear an "extra strong" pair of reading glasses for close work. That means I’d need (1) contact lenses, (2) nonprescription sunglasses, and (3) extra-strong reading glasses. Why bother?

        hell fire, i am in complete accord.  before i’d go through all that song and dance just to tie on an adams, i’d just go back to the cabin, drink about half a fifth of absolut, and forget about the fishin. wayno

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Tripper: Exactly my situation.  I just ordered my first pair of bifocals last week, but ordered my new polarized sunglasses in single vision.  I have a flip focal on my hat that works great for knot tying.  Before I got it I was always having to take off my lenses to tie knots and last season I had to clean the bottom-of-the-canoe gunk from them a few times (fortunately never dropped them in a stream yet). I don’t bother flipping the flip-focals though – I find they are too distracting to have on a brim in the flipped-up state, and since I use a wide brimmed hat, not a baseball type hat, I just have them pinned on the back brim and rotate the whole hat when I need the magnifiers. I get a lot of curious looks from people who wonder why I have lenses on the back of my hat. –Stan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My solution: a pair of wide-field prescription polaroids (glass) and a pair of those flip-down magnifiers that clip onto my hat bill.

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My solution: a pair of wide-field prescription polaroids (glass) and a pair of those flip-down magnifiers that clip onto my hat bill. Effective, cheap, and low risk.

With my prescription, the lenses would be an inch thick at the edges of ‘wide-field’ glasses. — Charlie…

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aw heck, you fellas with bad eyesight obviously haven’t heard of the pj prescription. pj’s eyesight for tying a knot is abysmal, or so he claims…so, whoever happens to be "lucky" enough to fish with him is conscripted to tie on his flies.  I’ve witnessed Peter Charles submit to the pj selective service on Snowbird Creek, even tied on a dropper as i recall…ain’t no more powerful prescription out there. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t see close-up with contacts, so I’d have to wear an "extra strong" pair of reading glasses for close work. That means I’d need (1) contact lenses, (2) nonprescription sunglasses, and (3) extra-strong reading glasses. Why bother? That’s basically what I use and, to me, it’s worth the bother just for the additional peripheral vision. I can read ‘normal’ sized print without reading glasses, but that’s right at my limit. I’ve been wearing glasses since third grade (44 years) and I plain do *not* like bifocals, especially for climbing over/under things and wading. I guess it’s just a matter of what you consider the bother is; to me distorted peripheral vision is more of a bother than an extra pair of glasses. Well, here’s a third take. I’ve been nearsighted enough to need glasses to drive since high school. And now that I’m almost half as old as Louie ;^) I’m starting to have trouble threading flies (I can read books without trouble – just can’t find the damned eye with the tippet without a struggle). And I won’t risk my eyes to any potential  injury/infection/whatever by using contact lenses. My solution: a pair of wide-field prescription polaroids (glass) and a pair of those flip-down magnifiers that clip onto my hat bill. Effective, cheap, and low risk. /daytripper

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My solution: a pair of wide-field prescription polaroids (glass) and a pair of those flip-down magnifiers that clip onto my hat bill. Effective, cheap, and low risk.

        plus, having spent a full day with you on hazel creek,  i can testify that they do a helluva job as a stand-in for a groucho disguise. wayno

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, here’s a third take. I’ve been nearsighted enough to need glasses to drive since high school. And now that I’m almost half as old as Louie ;^) I’m starting to have trouble threading flies (I can read books without trouble – just can’t find the damned eye with the tippet without a struggle). And I won’t risk my eyes to any potential  injury/infection/whatever by using contact lenses. My solution: a pair of wide-field prescription polaroids (glass) and a pair of those flip-down magnifiers that clip onto my hat bill. Effective, cheap, and low risk. /daytripper

Yep.  That’s exactly what I use.  Sometimes, I interpose Orvis sunglasses with the built-in magnifiers but contacts I will never use. All of my hats have a flip down magnifier attached. Tom — Tom Brown The Signal Group Wake Forest, NC HEATHEN, n. A benighted creature who has the folly to worship something that he can see and feel.                – Ambrose Bierce: The Devil’s Dictionary

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My solution: a pair of wide-field prescription polaroids (glass) and a pair of those flip-down magnifiers that clip onto my hat bill. Effective, cheap, and low risk.    plus, having spent a full day with you on hazel creek,  i can testify that they do a helluva job as a stand-in for a groucho disguise.

Hell, with my beak, ’stache, and dark eyebrows,  I *am* Groucho! /daytripper ("Say the secret word and I’ll kick your Roe-Ann County arse!" ;^)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t see close-up with contacts, so I’d have to wear an "extra strong" pair of reading glasses for close work. That means I’d need (1) contact lenses, (2) nonprescription sunglasses, and (3) extra-strong reading glasses. Why bother? That’s basically what I use and, to me, it’s worth the bother just for the additional peripheral vision. I can read ‘normal’ sized print without reading glasses, but that’s right at my limit. I’ve been wearing glasses since third grade (44 years) and I plain do *not* like bifocals, especially for climbing over/under things and wading. I guess it’s just a matter of what you consider the bother is; to me distorted peripheral vision is more of a bother than an extra pair of glasses.

Well, here’s a third take. I’ve been nearsighted enough to need glasses to drive since high school. And now that I’m almost half as old as Louie ;^) I’m starting to have trouble threading flies (I can read books without trouble – just can’t find the damned eye with the tippet without a struggle). And I won’t risk my eyes to any potential  injury/infection/whatever by using contact lenses. My solution: a pair of wide-field prescription polaroids (glass) and a pair of those flip-down magnifiers that clip onto my hat bill. Effective, cheap, and low risk. /daytripper

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I can’t see close-up with contacts, so I’d have to wear an "extra strong" pair of reading glasses for close work. That means I’d need (1) contact lenses, (2) nonprescription sunglasses, and (3) extra-strong reading glasses. Why bother?

That’s basically what I use and, to me, it’s worth the bother just for the additional peripheral vision. I can read ‘normal’ sized print without reading glasses, but that’s right at my limit. I’ve been wearing glasses since third grade (44 years) and I plain do *not* like bifocals, especially for climbing over/under things and wading. I guess it’s just a matter of what you consider the bother is; to me distorted peripheral vision is more of a bother than an extra pair of glasses. — Charlie…

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Vision is very important in flyfishing. The flyfisherman not only has to see tiny flies far away in sometimes turbulent water against the glare of the sun, but he has to thread spiderweb-like tippets through the eyes of those tiny flies, and then tie intricate knots. It’s pretty hard for people with impaired vision to cope with the demands of flyfishing, especially as we get older. People who are nearsighted can’t see things far away; people who are farsighted can’t see things close up. If you’re nearsighted you need a negative correction; if you’re far sighted you need a positive correction. Nearsightedness often starts at an early age (4th grade for me), but nearly everyone becomes farsighted with advancing age, as the lenses loses flexibility and the means to change focal length, so nearsighted people eventually need bifocals. I wear "progressive" bifocals for everyday getting around, but at 8", my knot-tying distance, I can see best with no glasses at all. That’s why I find it most convenvient to wear single-prescription (not bifocal) glasses for fishing. They’re securely fastened around my head with a strap. I just drop them to my chest to tie knots or extract hooks from fish. I wear contact lenses for one and only one activity — playing tennis. They’re just perfect for that, but they’d be awful for fishing. I can’t see close-up with contacts, so I’d have to wear an "extra strong" pair of reading glasses for close work. That means I’d need (1) contact lenses, (2) nonprescription sunglasses, and (3) extra-strong reading glasses. Why bother? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Question:

Hi All, A friend has asked me to build what is know as an AuSable river boat.  It is a flat bottom skiff type boat commonly used for fly fishing on the AuSable river here in Michigan.  It may be similar to an adirondack guide boat. If anyone can point me to resources that may help me sort this out such as websites, pics etc.  I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks, Craig "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government"

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OK Craig – you asked for it!!! are as goodat helping out as the people here (I know, some days I’m incredulous too ). Wait a minute! about anything boat related, like maybe skiff AND plans (or something). There are a gazillion books of plans — maybe not the AuSable river boat, but certainly something very much like it, and probably using modern construction techniques and materials.   For starters:  Build the New Instant Boats — Dynamite Payson                  American Small Sailing Craft — Howard Chapelle                  Forty Wooden Boats (also 30 and 50 wooden boats)                          by WoodenBoat Magazine http://www.woodenboat.com                  ANTYHING by WoodenBoat                  ANYTHING by Phil Bolger (Boats with an Open Mind is fun reading) Check out http://www.amazon.com for more books. No doubt someone else will jump in with really good advice, and I’ll bow to his/her superior knowledge. BTW – remember that boat building  (and all woodworking) is supposed to be fun.  For boats in particular, you can generally buy a ready-made boat cheaper than you can build one, so, if you do not WANT to build, and I mean really want to build, tell your friend to find something used and buy it. Have fun, and good luck with your search Rob (building a Sinepuxent skiff from Smithsonian plans) Weaver – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, A friend has asked me to build what is know as an AuSable river boat.  It is a flat bottom skiff type boat commonly used for fly fishing on the AuSable river here in Michigan.  It may be similar to an adirondack guide boat. If anyone can point me to resources that may help me sort this out such as websites, pics etc.  I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks, Craig "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government"

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Question:

Hey, I’ve heard striped bass are starting to show up in the surf outside a couple of bays down south.  Is anybody fishing for them from the beach? Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or.

I think they are always in the lower Umpqua.  Denny Hannah used to guide for them when he wasn’t guiding for salmon, steelhead and smallmouth bass.  That river also has a good shad run.  Great fishery – long way off. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley         2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

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Hey, I’ve heard striped bass are starting to show up in the surf outside a couple of bays down south.  Is anybody fishing for them from the beach? Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or.

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Hey, I’ve heard striped bass are starting to show up in the surf outside a couple of bays down south.  Is anybody fishing for them from the beach? Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or.

Oh…I thought the post was about strippers in Oregon.

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Hey, I’ve heard striped bass are starting to show up in the surf outside a couple of bays down south.  Is anybody fishing for them from the beach? Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or.

Hell, as Ken Hanely would say, " Go get ‘em." Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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Question:

I am looking at boat for coastal fishing for stripers.  It has a Force 50HP outboard engine that is about four years old and seems to be in mint condition.  Does anyone have any experience with Force? Thanks in advance JK

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I am looking at boat for coastal fishing for stripers.  It has a Force 50HP outboard engine that is about four years old and seems to be in mint condition.  Does anyone have any experience with Force?

If you don’t mind dealing with pre-mix, then a Force is a decent enough engine for "in shore" flyfishing. The Force engine line was an older Chrysler design which is now made by Mercury, so the dealer support should be as available as "true" Merc’s… If you’re looking for opinions, I’d look for an engine with VRO (variable rate oiler) so you can avoid the pre-mix and cut down on fouled plugs (a dead engine while snuggling up to cast to a breakwater can be *very* exciting ;^) but that does come with a higher price tag… Cheers! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.    Alpha Server Engineering  < <         "Read this and nobody gets hurt ;^)"         < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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I am looking at boat for coastal fishing for stripers.  It has a Force 50HP outboard engine that is about four years old and seems to be in mint condition.  Does anyone have any experience with Force? Thanks in advance JK

Reply. I have a Force 1985, 85 hp. on my 16 foot bass boat. It works great and hasen’t cost much money. It doesn’t like to run for long periods at high speed, other than that, no problem. I understand Mercury has bought the company out and is supplying service ?????

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I have a Force 1985, 85 hp. on my 16 foot bass boat. It works great and hasen’t cost much money. It doesn’t like to run for long periods at high speed, other than that, no problem. I understand Mercury has bought the company out and is supplying service ?????

Dennis: Using the standard premix ratio (I think it’s probably 50:1?) is probably insufficient for extended high-speed operation of that engine. I can’t say for certain if it’s mentioned in the operator’s manual (but it should be) that for that kind of use the oil should be increased (to 25:1 or so). Otherwise you’re likely to overheat the engine which might explain it’s reluctance to carry on for you at full-blast/long period operation… This is one of the niceties of a good VRO (not to mention that you don’t have to muck around with premix in the first place)… Cheers! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.    Alpha Server Engineering  < <         "Read this and nobody gets hurt ;^)"         < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Response:

I am looking at boat for coastal fishing for stripers.  It has a Force 50HP outboard engine that is about four years old and seems to be in mint condition.  Does anyone have any experience with Force? Thanks in advance JK

I would avoid Force like the plague.  Every year in Canada someones motor breaks down and it’s ALWAYS a Force.  Have yet to see one make it thru a hard week of fishing. Just what I’ve seen. Vince

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Question:

Hi, I am moving to Dusserdorf in the near future. I am thinking of taking my flyfishing equipment with me, or at least tie some flies while I am there. So if anybody can help me with these questions, I would preciate. Are there any areas for fly fishing in that area?

Hi Jussi Virtanen, do you mean Duesseldorf in Germany ? If it is, I can help you.      Michael  …. tie a fly when the trout comes high,          that’s high ..                                          mail: it’s only my opinion                 Michael Nolte

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Hi, I am moving to Dusserdorf in the near future. I am thinking of taking my flyfishing equipment with me, or at least tie some flies while I am there. So if anybody can help me with these questions, I would preciate. Are there any areas for fly fishing in that area? Can I get supplies to tie my own flies from that area ? (important) How well equipped area the local shops in that area ?                         Jussi Virtanen

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Question:

: Permits are not necessary. This is not entirely true, folks coming from the states have to have Crown Land Camping Permits to camp on any Crown Land north of the French/Mattawa line. I’m not sure about whether it is still in force, but I heard that the price was up to $10/percson/day. — Dave Robinson Toronto, Ont. Canada

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You do need a permit if you are a U.S. citizen and not using a Canadian outfitter.  If you have a guide, rented a canoe or were outfitted by a Canadian store, you do not need a permit. I had a waiver from the ONtario MNR a few years ago because I was leading a group from a non-profit organization.  They gave me a letter exempting us from the permit for our trip. – Andrew — Andrew Lederman SMD ‘97 University of Virginia

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I’m planning a canoe trip to Wabakimi Provincial Park, Ontario.  Anyone have any info on that area?  I understand that I can have a train drop us off at the park.  Is this true?  Does anyone know if there is a fee for camping?  I would really like to know what the area is like.  My only info so far is the book "Canoeing Ontario’s Rivers" by Ron Reid and Janet Grand.  I haven’t planned a date yet, but I’m thinking about mid to late August.  Any info would be helpful. Thanks!!! Dick Raffl

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’m planning a canoe trip to Wabakimi Provincial Park, Ontario. Anyone have any info on that area?  I understand that I can have a train drop us off at the park.  Is this true?  Does anyone know if there is a fee for camping?  I would really like to know what the area is like.  My only info so far is the book "Canoeing Ontario’s Rivers" by Ron Reid and Janet Grand.  I haven’t planned a date yet, but I’m thinking about mid to late August.  Any info would be helpful. Thanks!!! Dick Raffl

Write to :   Ontario Ministry Of Natural Resources              P.O. Box 970, Nipigon              Ontario POT  2J0 Ask them to sent you the brochure Nipigon Canoe Routes. This will outline all of the possible routes in the Wabakimi area. You can then select a route and write to them for more detailed information such as portages, ect.  It is possible to take the train from Armstrong and have them drop you off at the Allanwater bridge: from there you take a route that brings you back through Caribou Lake. Permits are not necessary. A word of caution: some of these lakes are quite large; it’s easy to become windbound for several days. There is also a lot of fly-in fishing traffic in this area, but once you get out it can be very remote.

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