Question:

Larry I probably watched you fly over with the sling loaded. I was there in 67-68 most of my time was around Chu Chi, Long Benh, and Ben Wha. I left Siagon just two days before TET 1968 to come home. Got home and watched on TV places being blown up in Siagon that I had been at two days before. Jerry (also wondering where the time has gone) Springer

It just slipped by, one day at a time. Bob Reed www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com      (KIS Builders Site) KIS Cruiser in progress…Slow but steady progress…. "Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!" (M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)    

Response:

As he said lets start a war.:) I did not think that highway looked like the ones I remember in Vietnam in 1967 and 68. Jerry

Jerry:  Did the Vietnamese ever paint centerlines?  I think that highway is either in Mass. or in Wisconsin.  I forget…it’s been too long. See my post below.  I know I didn’t fool you older coots.  I was pulling the legs of the younger bucks. BWB

Response:

Here’s a shot just north of An Loc, north of Siagon in 1971 flying the hwy just inside the Cambodian Border.

Same shot is on your website…. http://www.angelfire.com/nv/rvpilot/Helicopter.html Caption reads: A shot going from Sprinfield Mass over to Albany New York in the summer of 1973. I’m flying in the left seat most of the time while everyone else sleeps although I’m not rated I’m having a blast. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I was working for the company in them thar days, flying up to the border (but not crossing) looking for NVA supplies coming from the north down the Ho Chi Minh trail, through Cambodia then back into South Viet Nam.  We were flying real high here….up in the nose-bleed section.  Actually this was a stupid move to be this high.  We were sitting ducks to any sporting young gook who was trying to make his mark and bring down a "Big Bird."  When we flew this high we always placed our service pistola under our genitalia to stop any spurious bulletos from removing our reproductive organals in one surgical swipe of a 25 grain piece of lead moving at 2000 fps vertically and through your seat. BWB

Response:

As he said lets start a war.:) I did not think that highway looked like the ones I remember in Vietnam in 1967 and 68. Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s a shot just north of An Loc, north of Siagon in 1971 flying the hwy just inside the Cambodian Border. Same shot is on your website…. http://www.angelfire.com/nv/rvpilot/Helicopter.html Caption reads: A shot going from Sprinfield Mass over to Albany New York in the summer of 1973. I’m flying in the left seat most of the time while everyone else sleeps although I’m not rated I’m having a blast. I was working for the company in them thar days, flying up to the border (but not crossing) looking for NVA supplies coming from the north down the Ho Chi Minh trail, through Cambodia then back into South Viet Nam.  We were flying real high here….up in the nose-bleed section.  Actually this was a stupid move to be this high.  We were sitting ducks to any sporting young gook who was trying to make his mark and bring down a "Big Bird."  When we flew this high we always placed our service pistola under our genitalia to stop any spurious bulletos from removing our reproductive organals in one surgical swipe of a 25 grain piece of lead moving at 2000 fps vertically and through your seat. BWB

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was in Vietnam 67-68,  in the south most of the time, with 2 different Companies. We had 3 chinooks, use for recovery standby. Our job was sling loading back to base shot down aircraft and some maintenance aircraft. As a crewchief we have to do all maintance work on the CH-47 also. Slept many nights on them. When gunship pilots were in Vienam after 2 months, a lot of them though they were cowboys that could not be shot down. A lot of dumb pilot errors. One of our 330th Chinooks, after 1 1/2 years of flight time, had recovered many hundreds of aircraft. Some day I will have to show a picture of the right side of the Ch-47, with all the painted emblems of the recovered aircraft. One time at Vung Tau, we are working on the aft rotors. We are right next to the refueling depot. A huey is refueling, Another huey set beside him to refuel also. Ah,  the 2 hueys well, they connected rotor blades.What a mess. One of my crew was working on the aft rotor, Jumped to the ground, thats a long jump.. What a mess of chopper parts all over. Came back from service and got my Comm helicopter rating and flew 6 different types. Now days, the cost per hour, is to high to fly them any more. So now, build  fix wing aircraft full time. Now 55 years old. Where did the last 34 Larry Fitzgerald

Larry I probably watched you fly over with the sling loaded. I was there in 67-68 most of my time was around Chu Chi, Long Benh, and Ben Wha. I left Siagon just two days before TET 1968 to come home. Got home and watched on TV places being blown up in Siagon that I had been at two days before. Jerry (also wondering where the time has gone) Springer

Response:

Bob, If it was not for the AFCS it would be a bear to fly. We practice with the AFCS in the off position just to keep in touch with the bird. When the back wheels are on the ground the AFCS is only working 3/4 gain. Once that switch opens the AFCS goes to full gain and if you are not ready you will be along for a ride. We practice two wheel taxi too. It is a difficult balance of controls. A good person does it all without the brakes. There is a sweet spot with the nose in the air. That is the spot where the aircraft will stay put. Raise the nose a little higher than that and you go backward, a little lower and you move forward. This technique is used to back-up without hovering. I think one of the most scariest things is to hover or taxi backward.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All valid points but just a little trivia for ya, The CH-47 has a stick position indicator that must be at zero on the ground. Anything other than that will cause it to do weird things. (Snip) As Artie Johnson used to say, "Verrrrrrrry interesting!"  The AFCS in those ships must be incredible. Back in the 1960s, New York Airways operated the tandem rotor BV-107.  I was an excited twelve year-old, onboard one day when we touched down at JFK on the rear wheels, then taxied toward the Pan Am terminal with the front wheel still off the ground and the ship at a decidedly nose-up attitude.  Neato! My dad flew the predecessor of the CH-47, the Piasecki HUP-1 and HUP-2 way back in the day.  He related that they flew crappy in forward flight, as each rotor wanted to be "lead."  It wasn’t until Frankie’s team developed a workable helipilot for them that they got it to fly reasonably well. I landed in a buddies front yard last weekend in an R-44.  He’d told me to come by and do that anytime I was out screwing around. But, I never thought about his damn dogs.  As soon as I landed he came out and so did his two dogs.  Well, as dogs do, they went nuts watching this goofy machine sitting in their poop zone and ran at me.  They also ran at my tail for some reason. It is strange that dogs run for the tail rotor, and I’ve had that experience too and cannot explain it.  Luckily, the t/r of a 206 on high skids is, as you know, higher than most dogs, so they’d have to jump up to get it.  So far, *that* has thankfully not happened yet.  But with my luck…

Response:

All valid points but just a little trivia for ya, The CH-47 has a stick position indicator that must be at zero on the ground. Anything other than that will cause it to do weird things.

(Snip) As Artie Johnson used to say, "Verrrrrrrry interesting!"  The AFCS in those ships must be incredible. Back in the 1960s, New York Airways operated the tandem rotor BV-107.  I was an excited twelve year-old, onboard one day when we touched down at JFK on the rear wheels, then taxied toward the Pan Am terminal with the front wheel still off the ground and the ship at a decidedly nose-up attitude.  Neato!   My dad flew the predecessor of the CH-47, the Piasecki HUP-1 and HUP-2 way back in the day.  He related that they flew crappy in forward flight, as each rotor wanted to be "lead."  It wasn’t until Frankie’s team developed a workable helipilot for them that they got it to fly reasonably well. I landed in a buddies front yard last weekend in an R-44.  He’d told me to come by and do that anytime I was out screwing around. But, I never thought about his damn dogs.  As soon as I landed he came out and so did his two dogs.  Well, as dogs do, they went nuts watching this goofy machine sitting in their poop zone and ran at me.  They also ran at my tail for some reason.

It is strange that dogs run for the tail rotor, and I’ve had that experience too and cannot explain it.  Luckily, the t/r of a 206 on high skids is, as you know, higher than most dogs, so they’d have to jump up to get it.  So far, *that* has thankfully not happened yet.  But with my luck…

Response:

Was in Vietnam 67-68,  in the south most of the time, with 2 different Companies. We had 3 chinooks, use for recovery standby. Our job was sling loading back to base shot down aircraft and some maintenance aircraft. As a crewchief we have to do all maintance work on the CH-47 also. Slept many nights on them. When gunship pilots were in Vienam after 2 months, a lot of them though they were cowboys that could not be shot down. A lot of dumb pilot errors. One of our 330th Chinooks, after 1 1/2 years of flight time, had recovered many hundreds of aircraft. Some day I will have to show a picture of the right side of the Ch-47, with all the painted emblems of the recovered aircraft. One time at Vung Tau, we are working on the aft rotors. We are right next to the refueling depot. A huey is refueling, Another huey set beside him to refuel also. Ah,  the 2 hueys well, they connected rotor blades.What a mess. One of my crew was working on the aft rotor, Jumped to the ground, thats a long jump.. What a mess of chopper parts all over. Came back from service and got my Comm helicopter rating and flew 6 different types. Now days, the cost per hour, is to high to fly them any more. So now, build  fix wing aircraft full time. Now 55 years old. Where did the last 34 Larry Fitzgerald

Response:

The problem with crouching or ducking when approaching a helicopter is that people who are looking down at their sneakers are not looking where they’re going.  To paraphrase Martha Stewart, this is "a bad thing."   People talk about how a rotor can dip low.  And yes, approaching (or departing) any helicopter when the blades are not up to at least idle rpm is dangerous. Do not walk under undriven rotor blades!  Simple as that. Once the ship is idling, there is *usually* no danger to a man in a normal walk.  Although having said that, there are some small helicopters on low skid gear where the rotor is not all that high off the ground to begin with, in which the "idle" speed can be quite low (e.g. Enstrom).  Of the larger machines, only the Sikorsky S-76 poses a real danger (because of the low landing gear and forward tilt of the mast), but even it can be mitigated if the pilots simply pull back far enough on the cyclic to keep the tip path plane out of harm’s way. In all my years (20+) of flying helicopters, I’ve never had a gust of wind cause my idling rotor to do anything hinky.  Never.  Not saying it’ll won’t or couldn’t happen – just hasn’t.  (Start-up and shut-down?  Different story.) When I fly Bells, I keep the cyclic a little bit aft to hold the tip path plane up.  But I’ve seen pilots who are not very diligent about this.  Cyclics tend to fall forward if left unattended. A lot depends on which ship we’re talking about…  But if you’re a passenger who’s approaching a LongRanger on high-skids.  Can you depend on the pilot to make sure he keeps the tip path plane up and out of your way?  Sadly, no.  You better crouch a little just to be on the safe side.  Even I do, most of the time.  But please, "crouching" does not mean staring at the ground in a low-crawl.  Keep your head up so you can see, okay?  No baseball caps, and no fishing poles held over your shoulder. And no walking around the back of the ship.  That kind of thing makes our hearts stop…and could easily make yours stop too – permanently. "If you don’t know where you’re going,  Any road will take you there."                                          George Harrison

Response:

Slick = UH-1C or D model configured to haul bullits in and bodies out.  The bullets were "preventive medicine" called "dustoff"  now. LOH Light observation helicopter.  Forerunner of the 500 series helo’s. Worked in Hunter Killer teams usually, the loach would draw fire and the gunships would finish the fire.  One neat thing to note,  If a minigun was fixed on a hardpoint you had to have foreward momentum in order to fire, else the recoil would play havoc with the helicopter. BTW the LOH has evolved and is still in the inventory as the AH-6 and MH-6 of 160th SOAR fame. Instead of one minigun they now have two and FFAR boot. Still aimed the same way tho…….high tech grease pencil. and I was born in 71, am i yung enough fer ya ? all the best Sean "still dumpin shell casings out of the ruck and picken HE shrapnel outta the kevlar" Trost

Response:

    First Squadron, Ninth Cav         "Head Hunters"  First Cavalry Division (Airmoble)          1968 – 1969 I flew as a LOH crewchief for about 9 months. Hueys the rest of the year. Shot down twice. Crashed twice due to stupid pilot stunts. Yeah, the first time I was shot at, it was kind of "exhilerating".  The next 10 months weren’t so much fun. My "official" body count was 83, but I think 20 or 25 would be closer to reality.  It’s a Viet Nam thing. You wouldn’t understand… SP5 Richard Lamb       DFC

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s a shot just north of An Loc, north of Siagon in 1971 flying the hwy just inside the Cambodian Border. I was working for the company in them thar days, flying up to the border (but not crossing) looking for NVA supplies coming from the north down the Ho Chi Minh trail, through Cambodia then back into South Viet Nam.  We were flying real high here….up in the nose-bleed section.  Actually this was a stupid move to be this high.  We were sitting ducks to any sporting young gook who was trying to make his mark and bring down a "Big Bird."  When we flew this high we always placed our service pistola under our genitalia to stop any spurious bulletos from removing our reproductive organals in one surgical swipe of a 25 grain piece of lead moving at 2000 fps vertically and through your seat. BWB

Bill, I seem to remember a Shorts Skyvan poping into our base (Phu Loi 69-70) every once in a while. Along with the usual single engine stuff. Bill Higdon

Response:

Bob, All valid points but just a little trivia for ya, The CH-47 has a stick position indicator that must be at zero on the ground. Anything other than that will cause it to do weird things. For example; A little forward cyclic while on the ground the computers will slowly drive the rotors forward until the back wheels come off the ground and the squat switch opens. Then the forward tilt will be so fast that you will not be able to react to it and the aircraft will flip on its back. A little too much aft on the ground; if the breaks are set it will raise the nose until the aft rotor strikes the ground. If the breaks are not set it will start rolling backward.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The problem with crouching or ducking when approaching a helicopter is that people who are looking down at their sneakers are not looking where they’re going.  To paraphrase Martha Stewart, this is "a bad thing." People talk about how a rotor can dip low.  And yes, approaching (or departing) any helicopter when the blades are not up to at least idle rpm is dangerous. Do not walk under undriven rotor blades!  Simple as that. Once the ship is idling, there is *usually* no danger to a man in a normal walk.  Although having said that, there are some small helicopters on low skid gear where the rotor is not all that high off the ground to begin with, in which the "idle" speed can be quite low (e.g. Enstrom).  Of the larger machines, only the Sikorsky S-76 poses a real danger (because of the low landing gear and forward tilt of the mast), but even it can be mitigated if the pilots simply pull back far enough on the cyclic to keep the tip path plane out of harm’s way. In all my years (20+) of flying helicopters, I’ve never had a gust of wind cause my idling rotor to do anything hinky.  Never.  Not saying it’ll won’t or couldn’t happen – just hasn’t.  (Start-up and shut-down?  Different story.) When I fly Bells, I keep the cyclic a little bit aft to hold the tip path plane up.  But I’ve seen pilots who are not very diligent about this.  Cyclics tend to fall forward if left unattended. A lot depends on which ship we’re talking about…  But if you’re a passenger who’s approaching a LongRanger on high-skids.  Can you depend on the pilot to make sure he keeps the tip path plane up and out of your way?  Sadly, no. You better crouch a little just to be on the safe side.  Even I do, most of the time.  But please, "crouching" does not mean staring at the ground in a low-crawl.  Keep your head up so you can see, okay?  No baseball caps, and no fishing poles held over your shoulder. And no walking around the back of the ship.  That kind of thing makes our hearts stop…and could easily make yours stop too – permanently. "If you don’t know where you’re going,  Any road will take you there."                                          George Harrison

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The rotor of a Huey is some 11 feet up. It can dip to six, and in a gust, lower than that. 1000 hours combat assault time and I still duck. You flew Hueys? Lemme guess…. WO-1 out of Ft. Rucker, then Air Cav in country. Who with? I remember at Fritsche Field being out on the main ramp sometimes when the Cav detachment would come in. I just loved that unique Huey thump-thump-thump in chorus. Everyone transitioned to hover at about 3 feet, then taxied single-file to the Cav ramp. Always reminded me of circus elephants walking head-to-tail behind each other. David Ah, yes, the days of the Air Cav!!!!  I’m sure this dude was a WO-1 out of Rucker….hell, who wasn’t in them thar days?  You spent your time there before you went out and killed gooks in gun ships or flew dust off in slicks. (any of you younger punks know what a slick is/was?  How about a loach? LOH?)

The kids may not but I remember. At Ft. Ord we’d go over to the Navy Post Graduate School (NPG) O Club since the Navy had the good sense in WWII to buy (appropriate?) the Del Monte Hotel and adjoining grounds. In the bar different units would paint their logos on the 3′x3′ ceiling tiles. The one right above my barstool was an OH-6 Loach hovering under a spreading oak. The inscription read, "Army Loaches do it under the trees!" And Pasture Dave…the UH-1 Huey didn’t go thump-thump-thump….it went WOP-WOP-WOP when you dropped collective pitch for the descent.

Spelling how a sound sounds is not the easiest thing in the world to do, but thump-thump-thump sounds a lot more like a Huey than does Wop-Wop-Wop. I’ll split the difference with you… we’ll call it Whump-Whump-Whump. David

Response:

and I was born in 71, am i yung enough fer ya ? all the best Sean "still dumpin shell casings out of the ruck and picken HE shrapnel outta the kevlar" Trost

At-a-boy Sean!  Nice commentary.  I should have mentioned that I also love the smell of High Explosive (HE) in the mornings. Ahhhh for them good ole days when we blew up the jungle just for kicks. BWB

Response:

A lot depends on which ship we’re talking about…  But if you’re a passenger who’s approaching a LongRanger on high-skids.  Can you depend on the pilot to make sure he keeps the tip path plane up and out of your way?  Sadly, no.  You better crouch a little just to be on the safe side.  Even I do, most of the time.  But please, "crouching" does not mean staring at the ground in a low-crawl.  Keep your head up so you can see, okay?  No baseball caps, and no fishing poles held over your shoulder.

Nice post Bob.  I tell all my pax to maintain eye contact with me from the front as they approach the helicopter and stop outside of the rotor tip radius until I wave them in.  Then walk toward me always maintaining eye contact until you are right up to the cockpit.  Same thing upon disembarking.  You can’t maintain eye contact, but simply walk STRAIGHT FORWARD from the cockpit until you clear the rotors and crouch over a bit while you do. And no walking around the back of the ship.  That kind of thing makes our hearts stop…and could easily make yours stop too – permanently.

I landed in a buddies front yard last weekend in an R-44.  He’d told me to come by and do that anytime I was out screwing around. But, I never thought about his damn dogs.  As soon as I landed he came out and so did his two dogs.  Well, as dogs do, they went nuts watching this goofy machine sitting in their poop zone and ran at me.  They also ran at my tail for some reason.  I think they were drawn to the tailrotor spinning and thought it was a toy to play with.  Luckily I was still spooled up to 104% when they did.  I pulled pitch and lifted off.  From a 5 foot hover I motioned with the back of my hand at the dogs and he got the message, then put them in the house so I could land. I worry more about the tail rotor than anything since I can’t see it. Even landing here at the house there are kids on dirt bikes that drive up all the time while I’m winding down.  I’ve decided to put a fence around the pad just to protect them.  And, as you said above.  If you want to stop the heart of any helicopter pilot, just walk around toward the back of the ship.  I got a belt of lightening through my spine just reading your sentence and thinking about it. BWB – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"If you don’t know where you’re going, Any road will take you there."                                         George Harrison

Response:

Here’s a shot just north of An Loc, north of Siagon in 1971 flying the hwy just inside the Cambodian Border. I was working for the company in them thar days, flying up to the border (but not crossing) looking for NVA supplies coming from the north down the Ho Chi Minh trail, through Cambodia then back into South Viet Nam.  We were flying real high here….up in the nose-bleed section.  Actually this was a stupid move to be this high.  We were sitting ducks to any sporting young gook who was trying to make his mark and bring down a "Big Bird."  When we flew this high we always placed our service pistola under our genitalia to stop any spurious bulletos from removing our reproductive organals in one surgical swipe of a 25 grain piece of lead moving at 2000 fps vertically and through your seat. BWB

Response:

Just like many here have stated. The rotorhead my be way up there but the tip-path-plan can get REALLY low. I fly the CH-47D Chinook. The rotorhead is up there some 25 feet but the tip-path-plan of the front rotor can easily dip to 4 feet or less. The AH-64 and AH-1 is way up there to but it is not uncommon in a radical control movement to take out the gunner in the front seat. When you are around a helicopter with all its moving pieces you should do two thing. Err on the safe side ALWAYS. Second just as important as the first, FOLLOW DIRECTIONS. If it is a helicopter with crewchiefs make sure they see you and you watch them ALWAYS. If it just a pilot, make absolutely sure he sees you before you come under the rotors.

Response:

yea… that’s who we need to get over hear from rec.aviation.rotorcraft. There was a good thread awhile back on this one and an "OSHA"/collegiate based attorney put up an entertaining battle over theoretical law and 2nd grade common sense.  That was a fun one!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chris Woodhouse wrote … I have a question for you.  Why does everyone on tv bend over when they walk up to a helicopter with the rotors spinning?  I mean the rotors are way over their head so why duck? May not need to duck, but the rotors aren’t all that much higher. Back in September a Latin American pop star exited a copter & waved to his waiting fans — promptly losing several fingers to the rotors. Google for details.

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You flew Hueys? Lemme guess…. WO-1 out of Ft. Rucker, then Air Cav in country. Who with? I remember at Fritsche Field being out on the main ramp sometimes when the Cav detachment would come in. I just loved that unique Huey thump-thump-thump in chorus. Everyone transitioned to hover at about 3 feet, then taxied single-file to the Cav ramp. Always reminded me of circus elephants walking head-to-tail behind each other. David

Ah, yes, the days of the Air Cav!!!!  I’m sure this dude was a WO-1 out of Rucker….hell, who wasn’t in them thar days?  You spent your time there before you went out and killed gooks in gun ships or flew dust off in slicks. (any of you younger punks know what a slick is/was?  How about a loach? LOH?) And Pasture Dave…the UH-1 Huey didn’t go thump-thump-thump….it went WOP-WOP-WOP when you dropped collective pitch for the descent. I loved the Hueys.  Hell, I’ve got about 2000 hours logged just sleeping on the cot in the back. You speak about the transition from ETL (effective translational lift) into a hover.  What a roar that was in a UH-1.  The whole thing shook like the world was coming to an end.  Those days were a ball…taking enemy fire as you let down between the trees (chopping branches off) as your gunner was dusting the gooks with 50 cal rounds….the smell of napalm and death everywhere…it was exhilerating.   I was in Fire-3 (a HU-1H) one day when we took three bullets through the tail cone and the drive shaft to the tail rotor was severed.  It was a ball, we flew back to base at Pleiku at treetop level and about 120 knots then did a run on landing at about 60 knots into a rice paddy in water about 6 feet deep.  We didn’t give a shit.  We were half drunk and it was government equipment anyway…trashed the fucking  Huey.  That night back in my hooch we drank distilled pineapple juice that was about 100 proof and told lies about the day. I remember some guys had smuggled some whores in from the Qui Nhon who were real pretty and hid them in my buddies hooch next to mine.  They were giggling and laughing and drunk too.  We had some God damn fucking Major in there for inspections, but the other guys got him drunk early on and dished one of the whores to him to make him look the other way. One of my buddies (Rich Gilmore, call sign Gillous) took a few hard hits to his main rotor system in a loach and had to dump it in a hot zone.  I guess the gooks were everywhere.  Gillous called in the air boss for a naplm run and a couple F-4 Phantoms were handy.  They napalmed the whole area for about 15 minutes until he could use that 100 mph aluminum tape on his fucked up rotorblade to put the skin back together enough to fly it.  He spooled it up, pulled pitch and blew out of the hot LZ shaking like a God damn volcano or an earthquake at full roar.  The tape held half way back to Kontum but over Dak To she let go and he had to land agian for more field repair with 100 mph tape.  He took on fire the instant they got below treeline from some unfriendlies… it got worse when they landed, so…what do you do? What any red blooded WO-1 would do… more air support by the Air Farce to burn down the jungle and any unsuspecting shooting gook. Once the gooks were creamated and he’d rotor-braked the thing to a stop he jumped on a half cut down tree to grab the blade with the torn skin…three wraps of tape around it and he was back in spooling up the turbine before Charlie woke up and started firing again. Like the Air Cav that he was, he was off once again, roaring south to our base just north of Kontum…and he made it because he was drinking "hot" pinapple juice with us that night and telling us how brave he was. And to the guy who asked the quesiton about ducking as you walk up to the cockpit.  Jesus, you better duck.  A gust or a pilot simply scratching his balls might hit the cyclic (Stick to you fixed wing assholes), deflect it full left, right or forward and the rotor tips might even hit the damn ground.  The smart guy not only ducks when getting close to one of these contraptions, he crawls on the ground to mount one…especially in combat because the pilot might be drunk as hell to begin with. BWB

Response:

Chris Woodhouse wrote … I have a question for you.  Why does everyone on tv bend over when they walk up to a helicopter with the rotors spinning?  I mean the rotors are way over their head so why duck?

May not need to duck, but the rotors aren’t all that much higher. Back in September a Latin American pop star exited a copter & waved to his waiting fans — promptly losing several fingers to the rotors. Google for details.

Response:

The rotor of a Huey is some 11 feet up. It can dip to six, and in a gust, lower than that. 1000 hours combat assault time and I still duck.

You flew Hueys? Lemme guess…. WO-1 out of Ft. Rucker, then Air Cav in country. Who with? I remember at Fritsche Field being out on the main ramp sometimes when the Cav detachment would come in. I just loved that unique Huey thump-thump-thump in chorus. Everyone transitioned to hover at about 3 feet, then taxied single-file to the Cav ramp. Always reminded me of circus elephants walking head-to-tail behind each other. David

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 [Image]

I have a question for you.  Why does everyone on tv bend over when they walk up to a helicopter with the rotors spinning?  I mean the rotors are way over their head so why duck? — Chris

Response:

I have a question for you.  Why does everyone on tv bend over when they walk up to a helicopter with the rotors spinning?  I mean the rotors are way over their head so why duck?

Speak for yourself, Shorty!  :-) Seriously, I think it is both a natural reaction, and a wise one.  When I was in the Army, we constantly lost soldiers to main rotor strikes.  Not as common as problems with people running into the rear rotor, but at least once a year.  If the ground is uneven, or something strange causes the blades to flex, they can take the head off of a six foot individual.  A Blackhawk is a big bird, but even though the mast is way up over head, that doesn’t mean the tips are not closer than 6 feet to the ground where you are walking. Eric

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The rotor of a Huey is some 11 feet up. It can dip to six, and in a gust, lower than that. 1000 hours combat assault time and I still duck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for you.  Why does everyone on tv bend over when they walk up to a helicopter with the rotors spinning?  I mean the rotors are way over their head so why duck? Speak for yourself, Shorty!  :-) Seriously, I think it is both a natural reaction, and a wise one.  When I was in the Army, we constantly lost soldiers to main rotor strikes.  Not as common as problems with people running into the rear rotor, but at least once a year.  If the ground is uneven, or something strange causes the blades to flex, they can take the head off of a six foot individual.  A Blackhawk is a big bird, but even though the mast is way up over head, that doesn’t mean the tips are not closer than 6 feet to the ground where you are walking. Eric

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Question:

Scott was supposed to come with me but he had been out partying the night before and the groaning coming from the other room, spoke to his state of incapacitation. I thought the ROFFian method says to hand him a bottle of Wild Turkey, scream ‘Drink or Die, mother f*er’, haul his butt into the fishing car and careen wildly to the river.

What can I say, I forgot.  Does this mean I have to send back my decoder ring? Peter the worried

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Scott was supposed to come with me but he had been out partying the night before … I thought the ROFFian method says to hand him a bottle of Wild Turkey, scream ‘Drink or Die, mother f*er’, haul his butt into the fishing car and careen wildly to the river.

But you’re forgetting that Scott, taking after his mother’s side of the family, is WAY too smart to be a ROFFian. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Scott was supposed to come with me but he had been out partying the night before … I thought the ROFFian method says to hand him a bottle of Wild Turkey, scream ‘Drink or Die, mother f*er’, haul his butt into the fishing car and careen wildly to the river. But you’re forgetting that Scott, taking after his mother’s side of the family, is WAY too smart to be a ROFFian.

That and the fact his dad likes to keep him away from influences that will lead him into a life of debauchery.  He can find his own way.  :) Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Scott was supposed to come with me but he had been out partying the night before and the groaning coming from the other room, spoke to his state of incapacitation.

I thought the ROFFian method says to hand him a bottle of Wild Turkey, scream ‘Drink or Die, mother f*er’, haul his butt into the fishing car and careen wildly to the river.

Response:

Scott was supposed to come with me but he had been out partying the night before and the groaning coming from the other room, spoke to his state of incapacitation. I thought the ROFFian method says to hand him a bottle of Wild Turkey, scream ‘Drink or Die, mother f*er’, haul his butt into the fishing car and careen wildly to the river.

    ah, stan, ol’ boy, you will soon learn more than you ever wanted to know concerning the rather brusque nature of interaction techniques displayed by the subject of that little anecdote.     let’s just say that no one has ever called him "gentleman jim" roberts. your friend in the old north state wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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or how to screw up your first day on the Grand and still catch some fish. Scott was supposed to come with me but he had been out partying the night before and the groaning coming from the other room, spoke to his state of incapacitation.  I had put my stuff together the night before, just before I hit the sack.  This was going to be the first Grand trip after a season of steelheading so everything had to be dragged out of drawers, closets and rearranged. Six weights seemed to be a good idea to chuck some large perch streamers at the top end of the Grand.  It had been blown out by earlier rains so I was counting on high and dirty.  In these conditions, perch get washed through the dam and the browns have a field day with them. As I drive by Cedar Run, I can see that the water is a bit high but also that it is gin clear.  Scratch plan number one. I stop at the second access point – my car is the only one (miracle) – but as I’m suiting up, two more cars arrive.  The water at the access point usually holds a few fish but if these guys tromp through it first, that’ll blow my chance at them so I hurry up.  The little 6 wt. is taken since the perch streamer idea is done like dinner. I’m using a Type 6 fullsink on it – casts OK but the little rod is working – and I start swinging a little pattern – nothing.  This is a new pattern that I hope will successfully imitate small baitfish but I don’t move a single fish.  I work downstream while the car load work upstream.  The area around Cedar Run tends not to have a lot of defined seams and runs that would appeal to the nympher – mostly composed of flats connected by riffles.  However, the gang has parked themselves in a nice nymphing spot and after about 15 minutes, a dead brown of about 12" floats by.  Later, one guy walks by and I say the I noticed he had hooked one.  He’s quite pleased to describe it but I refrain from telling him the result. Should mention that in the process of hurrying I had left behind my tippet, thermometer, camera, and a couple of fly boxes. Should also mention that it was freaking cold and I was dressed for the summer-like temperatures promised for mid day. Should also mention that I didn’t get a single hit. To hell with Cedar Run and I pack up for The Trestle.  This spot has an old rail trestle bridge that is now used by walkers – it has a beautiful view of the Grand.  Directly below the bridge, there’s some slow water that has the appearance of a warm water river, but further down, the river is split by an island and as the river rejoins, there’s a beautiful nymphing run which is now my intended target but it’s probably chock-a-block with anglers. I unwrap the 20 something year old graphite Orvis Osprey – a slow 9′ 6" six weight that I bought over eBay.  The cork is still white – the rod having seen virtually no use.  It was an impulse buy and I regretted it afterward but hell, since I have it, might as well use it.  What a little gem.  About as perfect a nymphing rod as one could want. At least when I don’t catch any fish I’ll enjoin the experience. When I get to the run, there’s no one in it despite seeing fishermen above and below me.  Are they all nuts?  On goes a #18 bead head prince nymph that I had bought at the Feathered Hook last year. Within a few minutes of my travels to the dark side, I’ve hooked and landed a sleek, fat, 15-16" brown.  She put on quite a show, charging all over the place, making the JLH sing a few times and causing the gang upstream to cast covetous glances.  Swing her into the shallows, she’s lightly hooked, lift the head and slip out the nymph and she’s on her way.  A few casts later and I’ve hooked her twin sister and landed her in the same spot.  Grand browns at this time of year are at their most feisty so even a fish of this size takes a couple of minutes to land.  A few minutes later I set the hook into a larger fish but I was overly aggressive with the hookset and when it turned I had too much pressure applied.  Snap. I don’t normally hog a run but with anglers bracketing me, I don’t have much choice.  However, these hookups will be my last.  Back to the parking lot for some of Jo’s famous sandwiches and a reassessment. Can’t believe my nymphing luck.  The first set had been totally instinctive and I had been really surprised to find a fish on.  Watch out Louie, I’m starting to get the hang of this! A quick detour to a favourite spot at Inverhaugh but it yields only the briefest of hookups and a chat with a few anglers as it also gets busy while I fish.  A guide leads two rookie clients to the water and makes a big fuss out of walking across the water well downstream of me so as not to disturb my fishing water.  Thanks.  Too bad the next gang hadn’t been around to hear the instruction.  Again three, two rookies lead by a not so rookie.  He leads them into the water to cross within five feet of me and to tromp through the water I’m fishing.  As they approach, I expect to see them angle off but they keep coming. Finally, I advise them that I’m fishing this water, would they mind crossing further down.  The look of surprise on the leader’s face told me that he hadn’t even thought of the possibility that I might be actually fishing the water! Oh well, I still caught some – on a nymph to boot. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Question:

Thanks Noah. Yes I am planning on starting out from Chokoloskee.  I will be paddling with the wife.  My friend and his wife will be going also.  He is familiar with the area and we will be traveling together, in separate canoes of course. Yes, you can catch Tarpon in a canoe.  Just tighten the drag down and let him pull you around for a while until he gets tired. Hopefully be there in March.  Thanks for the info.  The canoe is in my backyard as I type this.  Woo Hoo! Frosty – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sounds like a doable choice to me. I paddled around out there for about three weeks a couple Februaries ago and, although I don’t own a Chgamplain, a friend of mine does and I’ve done a couple overnighters with her in it (you know what I mean). I’ve found that the Champlain’s relatively low profile does well in the waves and wind and, if you’re planning on paddling at all on the outside down there, that’ll be most important. I gotta say that paddling solo in that wind might be quite a challenge. At 18′, even with a relatively low profile, you’ll get pushed around solo pretty good. The boat tracks very well, however, and if you really load it up, you’ll do as well as in any other. Are you gonna fish? I was almost afraid to, being a wimpy trout fisherman, the thought of a 35 pound tarpon on my fly rod was a bit intimidating. I know they do it on those fishing shows, but geez. Where are you going? I used Chokoloskee as a base and bumped around in the 10000 islands, stopping to get water every 6 days or so, of course there were two of us so solo you might not need to come out so often. If you haven’t been there before, make sure you reserve campsites with the rangers, try to get the chickees – lean-tos in the water, raised on stilts – ("land" sites are either mud pits or skeeter infested like you wouldn’t believe, worse than black flies in Quebec), and be careful about trying to stretch days – the campsites are relatively few and far between. Adios. Jealous. PS – I suggest reading Peter Matthiesson’s -Lost Man’s River- while you’re out there. It can be a daunting hunk of book at times, but a good read while you’re in the midst of it all.

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Considering buying the We-no-nah Champlain 18′ canoe in Kevlar with a gelcoat.  I am a large fellow (#240) and was wondering what the performance of this boat would be.  Mainly planning on paddling the Everglades where you have to take your water with you also.  This will carry a large load according to the manufacturer, but was interested in comments. Anybody own one? Thanks, Frosty

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Sounds like a doable choice to me. I paddled around out there for about three weeks a couple Februaries ago and, although I don’t own a Chgamplain, a friend of mine does and I’ve done a couple overnighters with her in it (you know what I mean). I’ve found that the Champlain’s relatively low profile does well in the waves and wind and, if you’re planning on paddling at all on the outside down there, that’ll be most important. I gotta say that paddling solo in that wind might be quite a challenge. At 18′, even with a relatively low profile, you’ll get pushed around solo pretty good. The boat tracks very well, however, and if you really load it up, you’ll do as well as in any other. Are you gonna fish? I was almost afraid to, being a wimpy trout fisherman, the thought of a 35 pound tarpon on my fly rod was a bit intimidating. I know they do it on those fishing shows, but geez. Where are you going? I used Chokoloskee as a base and bumped around in the 10000 islands, stopping to get water every 6 days or so, of course there were two of us so solo you might not need to come out so often. If you haven’t been there before, make sure you reserve campsites with the rangers, try to get the chickees – lean-tos in the water, raised on stilts – ("land" sites are either mud pits or skeeter infested like you wouldn’t believe, worse than black flies in Quebec), and be careful about trying to stretch days – the campsites are relatively few and far between. Adios. Jealous. PS – I suggest reading Peter Matthiesson’s -Lost Man’s River- while you’re out there. It can be a daunting hunk of book at times, but a good read while you’re in the midst of it all. Considering buying the We-no-nah Champlain 18′ canoe in Kevlar with a gelcoat.  I am a large fellow (#240) and was wondering what the performance of this boat would be.  Mainly planning on paddling the Everglades where you have to take your water with you also.  This will carry a large load according to the manufacturer, but was interested in comments. Anybody own one? Thanks, Frosty

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Question:

Well, a couple of weeks ago when I got my first fly rod, I wasn’t sure whether the reel was left or right handed, and it took me quite a while to figure out how to put all of the tackle together.  With the help of some newsgroup posters and lurkers I managed to put it all together. (I was a hunter 30 years ago, but have never been a fisherman until this summer).  On Sunday I went to Childrens lake in Boiling Springs, PA (just a few miles from my home) and practiced casting for a while.  Took my 9-year-old son along, and spent most of my time untangling his tackle for him, but I did get some good casting practice in.  Monday morning I hit the Yellow Breeches alone, tried various flies, and after an hour or so – Success !!  Caught my first brook trout, a nice 10-incher.  Fished the rest of the day without further success, but I was really happy about that first hit.  I’m definitely hooked !

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, a couple of weeks ago when I got my first fly rod, I wasn’t sure whether the reel was left or right handed, and it took me quite a while to figure out how to put all of the tackle together.  With the help of some newsgroup posters and lurkers I managed to put it all together. (I was a hunter 30 years ago, but have never been a fisherman until this summer).  On Sunday I went to Childrens lake in Boiling Springs, PA (just a few miles from my home) and practiced casting for a while.  Took my 9-year-old son along, and spent most of my time untangling his tackle for him, but I did get some good casting practice in.  Monday morning I hit the Yellow Breeches alone, tried various flies, and after an hour or so – Success !!  Caught my first brook trout, a nice 10-incher.  Fished the rest of the day without further success, but I was really happy about that first hit.  I’m definitely hooked ! </PRE</HTML

That’s a great story Brian.   Glad to have you in the fly fishing fraternity. What fly did you end up catching the brookie on? Was it wet or dry. Dream of the possibilities. Joel Axelrad

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Brian, congratulations on the catch.. now, get that second mortgage all worked up so you can get a bunch of gear and go nutty over minor itty bitty gizmos for the ol’ vest.  Congrats, edwin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, a couple of weeks ago when I got my first fly rod, I wasn’t sure whether the reel was left or right handed, and it took me quite a while to figure out how to put all of the tackle together.  With the help of some newsgroup posters and lurkers I managed to put it all together. (I was a hunter 30 years ago, but have never been a fisherman until this summer). On Sunday I went to Childrens lake in Boiling Springs, PA (just a few miles from my home) and practiced casting for a while.  Took my 9-year-old son along, and spent most of my time untangling his tackle for him, but I did get some good casting practice in.  Monday morning I hit the Yellow Breeches alone, tried various flies, and after an hour or so – Success !!  Caught my first brook trout, a nice 10-incher.  Fished the rest of the day without further success, but I was really happy about that first hit.  I’m definitely hooked !

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   Monday morning I hit the Yellow Breeches alone, tried various flies, and after an hour or so – Success !!  Caught my first brook trout, a nice 10-incher.  Fished the rest of the day without further success, but I was really happy about that first hit.  I’m definitely hooked !

   That’s not bad at all. When I took up flyfishing, it was 600 round trip miles to good trout water, and I drove it five times before achieving your level of success.

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Congratulations Brian!  Your post brought back fond memories for me. When I was attending grad school at U. of Maryland in the early eighties, I’d sometimes bag a day of classes and drive up to PA and fish the Breeches.  Be sure to spend some time on Falling Spring Branch too. A lovely stream (at least it used to be). JR

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I know Falling Spring well.  I went to high school in Chambersburg and spent a lot of time in the area as my best friend lived on Falling Spring Road. Haven’t been back there in many years, though.  I’ll have to check it out one day in the fall.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Congratulations Brian!  Your post brought back fond memories for me. When I was attending grad school at U. of Maryland in the early eighties, I’d sometimes bag a day of classes and drive up to PA and fish the Breeches.  Be sure to spend some time on Falling Spring Branch too. A lovely stream (at least it used to be). JR

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Wish I could remember for sure which fly it was, but I think it was a tan caddis, probably a  14. I’ve already accumulated two big boxes full of flies !

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, a couple of weeks ago when I got my first fly rod, I wasn’t sure whether the reel was left or right handed, and it took me quite a while to figure out how to put all of the tackle together.  With the help of some newsgroup posters and lurkers I managed to put it all together. (I was a hunter 30 years ago, but have never been a fisherman until this summer). On Sunday I went to Childrens lake in Boiling Springs, PA (just a few miles from my home) and practiced casting for a while.  Took my 9-year-old son along, and spent most of my time untangling his tackle for him, but I did get some good casting practice in.  Monday morning I hit the Yellow Breeches alone, tried various flies, and after an hour or so – Success !!  Caught my first brook trout, a nice 10-incher.  Fished the rest of the day without further success, but I was really happy about that first hit.  I’m definitely hooked ! </PRE</HTML That’s a great story Brian. Glad to have you in the fly fishing fraternity. What fly did you end up catching the brookie on? Was it wet or dry. Dream of the possibilities. Joel Axelrad

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Monday morning I hit the Yellow Breeches alone, tried various flies, and after an hour or so – Success !!  Caught my first brook trout, a nice 10-incher.  Fished the rest of the day without further success, but I was really happy about that first hit.  I’m definitely hooked !

That’s great.  Don’t get discouraged – contrary to appearances and what you may have heard, I found that can be a tough stream.  You will find easier (and toughher!) water.  Good luck! Regards, Jeff

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Question:

The way a fish takes a nymph has to do with a number of different things including what nymphs the fish are feeding on, the depth they’re feeding

Here’s an example from about two weeks ago.  I was fishing an unweighted wooly bugger.  Bass would not hit a swimming bugger.  All our hits came as we were distracted and had let our flies sink to the bottom.  Then as we lifted our rods to begin the backcast, that’s when the largemouth bass would strike.  I had noticed plenty of drake shucks floating around and when I got home read in Dick Pobst’s Trout Stream Insects (Orvis Streamside Guide form Lyons Press) to imitate the green drake nymph by lifting it from the bottom of slackwater.   Mu

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Mu Young Lee wrote… Here’s an example from about two weeks ago.  I was fishing an unweighted wooly bugger.  Bass would not hit a swimming bugger.  All our hits came as we were distracted and had let our flies sink to the bottom.

Hey, that’s great news because I get easily distracted. Or at least that’s what my wife tells me. She was telling me that just last week while we were outside in the yard… Wait, what was I talking about? –Steve

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One technique I can suggest to you that is just a small variation on the tight line system you’re trying out. No bobber required!! It is an up, down and across presentation. The same or similar terminal rig as you’re using with your tight line system. The difference is that you need to keep an almost tight line, instead of a tight one. It does require quite a bit of mending, line retrieval etc. to keep the flies along the bottom and still have some contact with them.  The takes are usually pretty apparent either visually or by feel. You do need to vary the amount of weight with each new area you fish. I like this technique for big heavy water, especially in water with good stonefly populations.

Sounds similar to what I intend to do on the weekend.  We’ll see what happens. I do too, but over a season, don’t you take more fish on a dry fished drag free? I think the same holds true for nymphs.

Yes, I just like to try different methods. Since you’re a good streamer fisherman and know that technique well, I’m sure you’ll get some fish on nymphs fished in the same manner. Personally, I’d like to watch you fish streamers. I’ve never had the chance to fish with someone or watch someone effectively fish streamers to stream trout. Don’t see many people flinging streamers in the Rockies. Willi

My wife and I are hoping to get to the Grand Canyon in 2 or 3 years, so unless in the meantime the Avs meet the Leafs in the playoffs, we may get our chance then. Peter

Response:

Despite the lack of hookups, one of the outcomes of the test, was the proof that we miss many strikes in typical bobber nymphing.  No way would I have detected some 20+ strikes in that water with a bobber. All true, however my tests are an attempt to challenge the conventional wisdom of nymphing, mainly ’cause it bores me to tears and I’m not very good at it (not necessarily in that order.)

Dead drifting nymphs in all its many variations, is the most effective and consistent way to catch trout in moving water, but it is not much fun if you’re doing it right unless you’re a madly possessed trout hunter. That’s why I do less and less of it, my mad possession is a thing of the distant past. Dead drifting nymphs requires alot of physical work, terminal tackle changing, concentration, etc. etc. etc. and because I do less and less of it, I’m not as good at it as I used to be. One technique I can suggest to you that is just a small variation on the tight line system you’re trying out. No bobber required!! It is an up, down and across presentation. The same or similar terminal rig as you’re using with your tight line system. The difference is that you need to keep an almost tight line, instead of a tight one. It does require quite a bit of mending, line retrieval etc. to keep the flies along the bottom and still have some contact with them.  The takes are usually pretty apparent either visually or by feel. You do need to vary the amount of weight with each new area you fish. I like this technique for big heavy water, especially in water with good stonefly populations. My test of swimming Hendricksons in slow water proved to me that fish also react quickly and aggressively to moving food even under conditions that enable them to get a good look at the imitation.  The taut line was no problem due to the aggressive take.  BTW, I frequently drag or skitter dries and pick up the odd fish, especially when it’s windy.

I do too, but over a season, don’t you take more fish on a dry fished drag free? I think the same holds true for nymphs. My test was conducted in some fairly heavy current and stained water so by rights, the fish should have been taking aggressively but I think the combo of a broadside presentation of a scud hook and taut line screwed me.  (The Hendricksons were mostly taken from behind.) Anyway, I still consider the test partially successful as it taught me a few things. Hoepfully on the weekend I’ll get a chance to try out the wobble nymphs on a typical streamer swing through the same water.  We’ll see what happens.

Since you’re a good streamer fisherman and know that technique well, I’m sure you’ll get some fish on nymphs fished in the same manner. Personally, I’d like to watch you fish streamers. I’ve never had the chance to fish with someone or watch someone effectively fish streamers to stream trout. Don’t see many people flinging streamers in the Rockies. Willi

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As the nymph enters  she clamps down for probably two reasons, one she must be sure it’s  a nymph not debris, plus she has to kill it.  Nymphs can have  pretty good jaws, especially the big ones, and they can give a good nip.

Interesting, never occurred to me…. it does make you wonder what they think of the hook though, when they mouth it… So if I purposely design a mayfly nymph with the same characteristics of weight and eye placement, I should get the same wobble giving a reasonable facsimile of a swimming nymph.

I’ve seen video footage of nymphs tied in this manner moving in the water, and the wobbling action does look impressive.  Another thing you can do is check into the nymph hooks that have split wire near the eye that create a wide flat body.  Example: www.flytying.com/FlyTying/hookbook/xPARTRIDGE_MASTER/partridgeH3S T.html I haven’t tried this yet, but you got me interested again! * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

good post deleted. My experience is that with any tight line technique ( I assume you are talking about tight line technique and not a true dead drift one ), lots of fish are missed. Most of the fish you do hook, generally hook themselves. I also don’t find scud hooks as having the best hooking characteristics. That would explain quite a few misses but not 0 for 20 or 30. I think the main reason for the missed strikes is the presence of the tight line itself. Nymphs do not pull back and if they do, they are rejected quickly. This is ONE of the advantages to fishing a true dead drifted nymph.   The way a fish takes a nymph has to do with a number of different things including what nymphs the fish are feeding on, the depth they’re feeding at etc., but I believe the biggest factor is the speed and type of water. In pockets water and the heavy flows at the heads of pools, the strikes are quick and sharp.  This makes it much easier to fool and hook the fish. Fly selection is usually not very important. These are the same waters that work well with attractor dries. In areas of more sedate current, the nymphs are usually taken in a patient, manner allowing the fish to scrutinize the fly. This can result in more bumps, refusals, rejections, etc. and more missed strikes, very similar to "fussy" fish on a dry. I think the comparison to fishing dries holds true in other ways. Usually dead drifted dries are more effective than flies with drag or motion. The same applies to nymphs. Most nymphs are taken when they are drifting with the current, not when they are swimming. Caddis and stoneflies are the most frequent exceptions because the nymphs can be active swimmers and the adults active on the surface. Although a dead drifted nymph or dry may lack the movement trigger to elicit a strike, it will never be seen as unnatural. Drag or motion on a dry or a nymph will often be seen by the trout as unnatural. Willi

Response:

Although a dead drifted nymph or dry may lack the movement trigger to elicit a strike, it will never be seen as unnatural. Drag or motion on a dry or a nymph will often be seen by the trout as unnatural.

Willi, I agree drag is unnatural, but I don’t think Peter’s example of "wobbling" is unnatural, do you?  He was talking about "swimming" nymphs, but when you think about a flat bodied nymph, I think these do it too.  Is something like a Hare’s Ear really the best imitation?  It’s basically tied "round" – i.e. no matter which angle the trout sees it from, it appears broad, as if it were always seeing the broad, flat side of a natural.  That might be why it works.  But tying it to be shaped like a natural might give it a little wobbling motion.  Seems good to me. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – good post deleted. My experience is that with any tight line technique ( I assume you are talking about tight line technique and not a true dead drift one ), lots of fish are missed. Most of the fish you do hook, generally hook themselves. I also don’t find scud hooks as having the best hooking characteristics. That would explain quite a few misses but not 0 for 20 or 30. I think the main reason for the missed strikes is the presence of the tight line itself. Nymphs do not pull back and if they do, they are rejected quickly. This is ONE of the advantages to fishing a true dead drifted nymph.  

My original post was supposed to have a few sentences that explained that I had built the leader, added weight and the bead head precisely to get as taut a line as possible.  I knew that the taut line contributed to the problem.  I wrote this Friday night at my bro-in-law’s after numerous beers so I plead guilty to TWI.   Despite the lack of hookups, one of the outcomes of the test, was the proof that we miss many strikes in typical bobber nymphing.  No way would I have detected some 20+ strikes in that water with a bobber. The way a fish takes a nymph has to do with a number of different things including what nymphs the fish are feeding on, the depth they’re feeding at etc., but I believe the biggest factor is the speed and type of water. In pockets water and the heavy flows at the heads of pools, the strikes are quick and sharp.  This makes it much easier to fool and hook the fish. Fly selection is usually not very important. These are the same waters that work well with attractor dries. In areas of more sedate current, the nymphs are usually taken in a patient, manner allowing the fish to scrutinize the fly. This can result in more bumps, refusals, rejections, etc. and more missed strikes, very similar to "fussy" fish on a dry.

All true, however my tests are an attempt to challenge the conventional wisdom of nymphing, mainly ’cause it bores me to tears and I’m not very good at it (not necessarily in that order.)  My test of swimming Hendricksons in slow water proved to me that fish also react quickly and aggressively to moving food even under conditions that enable them to get a good look at the imitation.  The taut line was no problem due to the aggressive take.  BTW, I frequently drag or skitter dries and pick up the odd fish, especially when it’s windy. My test was conducted in some fairly heavy current and stained water so by rights, the fish should have been taking aggressively but I think the combo of a broadside presentation of a scud hook and taut line screwed me.  (The Hendricksons were mostly taken from behind.) Anyway, I still consider the test partially successful as it taught me a few things. I think the comparison to fishing dries holds true in other ways. Usually dead drifted dries are more effective than flies with drag or motion. The same applies to nymphs. Most nymphs are taken when they are drifting with the current, not when they are swimming. Caddis and stoneflies are the most frequent exceptions because the nymphs can be active swimmers and the adults active on the surface. Although a dead drifted nymph or dry may lack the movement trigger to elicit a strike, it will never be seen as unnatural. Drag or motion on a dry or a nymph will often be seen by the trout as unnatural. Willi

Hoepfully on the weekend I’ll get a chance to try out the wobble nymphs on a typical streamer swing through the same water.  We’ll see what happens. Peter

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Some time back I wrote a piece about straight-line nymphing and about how I had a phenomenal hit rate and an abysmal hookup rate.  I swear that in one run I must have had something like 20 for 0 or 30 for 0 strikes to hookups.  I had a method that would enable me to detect strikes but I couldn’t hookup worth a damn.  Talk about frustration so I’ve put the method aside.  Two things have occurred since that have set me to thinking about straight-line nymphing again; I read that post Sandy put out about soft-bodied nymphs and my failure with a crayfish design that wobbled like a Red Devil on the retrieve.  These two events have given me a clue into a new type of fishing that could prove very successful. (I hope.)  I’m in the middle of my northern NT trip and with nothing to do on the long trip to Timmins, so I’m doing my best to use the time productively <g to try and figure out why my straight-line nymphing was a failure.  I’m not a biologist and I’ve never talked to one about this so read the following with that proviso.  I’ve been trying to visualize how a trout takes a nymph. A trout resting in her lie doesn’t really have to work hard for dinner.  The whole process must be a relaxed affair compared to a bass chasing and inhaling a minnow.  As a nymph drifts toward the lie, she slides out and slightly opens her mouth.  As the nymph enters she clamps down for probably two reasons, one she must be sure it’s a nymph not debris, plus she has to kill it.  Nymphs can have pretty good jaws, especially the big ones, and they can give a good nip.  So she slides back into her lie with the nymph, chomps it once or twice more, runs it over her tongue as a final check, and only then swallows it.  This is the key to Sandy’s foam nymphs, as a hard nymph will be rejected as phony after a couple of chomps.  It also explains why I couldn’t get hookups.  I was fishing with a tungsten bead head caddis tied on a scud hook.  This hook has a thick wire, large gape and short shank plus the bead and the firmly wound body were rock hard. Straight-line nymphing will present the fly broadside to the trout. So when a trout took it, the hook point probably hit its lower jaw and the fly canted sideways, so when the trout clamped down, the hook point was outside of its mouth.  I’ve seen smallmouth take a slow moving woolly bugger the same way.  Plus, if I delayed the hookset, the trout would reject the hard nymph.  So if I’m to get a nymph to work on a straight-line swing, the point has to get inside the trout’s mouth.  That means a small gape, long shank, thin wire hook.  It would also help if the trout would take it like a streamer – with gusto. Mayfly nymphs come in three varieties, burrowing, clinging, and swimming.  Burrowing nymphs, like Hexes, favour soft, silty, slow moving sections of rivers and only become active in low light, dusk, or at night, consequently they don’t give us much opportunity to exploit except during emergence.  Clinging mayfly nymphs and most stoneflies crawl about rocks and only infrequently move in open water except when migrating to emerge.  When a clinging nymph wants to move and find a new feeding spot, they release their hold on a rock and allow themselves to be swept along in the current, swimming only a little.  These are the most common nymphs that we imitate when we dead drift.  Some species time their moves so that an entire section of a river has all of one species of nymph drifting at about the same time. An effective strategy for reducing casualties to marauding trout. These trout have very flat bodies and strong, thick legs suitable clinging to rocks.  The third type of nymphs however, are excellent swimmers with elegant, long, thin bodies and thin swimming legs. These mayflies swim with an arched back and an undulating side-to-side motion that wriggle nymphs unsuccessfully try to imitate.  Unlike clingers, these nymphs should be moved to be lifelike.  A down-and-across streamer swing with a few small strips should do the job. Recently, I tried swimming Hendrickson nymphs and I was pleasantly surprised with the aggression that trout displayed when taking them. No subtle takes this time and the hookup rate was very high.  So if I combine a good swimming nymph pattern with a swinging presentation, the results should be good.  Back to the crayfish pattern.  I had used a jig hook and had weighted the shank near the gape.  On the retrieve, the combination of the upraised eye and low set weight resulted in the fly flipping over and wobbling like an old Red Devil.  So if I purposely design a mayfly nymph with the same characteristics of weight and eye placement, I should get the same wobble giving a reasonable facsimile of a swimming nymph.  Well, wish me luck with it, as once I’ve got over the worst of the NT install, I’m going to tie up some and swing them through some Grand River runs.

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Question:

You guys REALLY need to get out more. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<<If you want to cast, but don’t feel like stringing up to cast in the snow of your yard.  Which has got to bad for the old flyline anyways, take a suitable length of 1/8" dowel (you can get this at the local hardware store.)  Usually about 2 to 3 feet.  Then take a length of backing, about 2x the length of your dowel, and tie it on one end. Instant fly casting gear that can be cast in your living room, without spending a whole lot of money. Sounds like the perfect thing for fishing the aquarium.

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<<If you want to cast, but don’t feel like stringing up to cast in the snow of your yard.  Which has got to bad for the old flyline anyways, take a suitable length of 1/8" dowel (you can get this at the local hardware store.)  Usually about 2 to 3 feet.  Then take a length of backing, about 2x the length of your dowel, and tie it on one end. Instant fly casting gear that can be cast in your living room, without spending a whole lot of money. Sounds like the perfect thing for fishing the aquarium.

Good idea. My guppies seem to be favoring a size 28 Adams, right now. Tim? Got any recipes?

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Sounds like the perfect thing for fishing the aquarium.

Or catfishing. For cats, that is. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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If you want to cast, but don’t feel like stringing up to cast in the snow of your yard.  Which has got to bad for the old flyline anyways, take a suitable length of 1/8" dowel (you can get this at the local hardware store.)  Usually about 2 to 3 feet.  Then take a length of backing, about 2x the length of your dowel, and tie it on one end. Instant fly casting gear that can be cast in your living room, without spending a whole lot of money.

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Question:

I’ve heard from a man that did it that building a fly rod, with the right equipment, can be done reasonably well and with about eight hours of work.  I’d like to invest in the tools and then spend a little less money and a lot more care making rods for myself and my spouse. Any recommendations on inexpensive tools of the trade?  What machines are necessary versus just a convenience?  The best rod building guide? And what to look out for on your first go? Lastly, which are the better of the less expensive blanks?  I’ve invested in fly fishing and fly tying and so I know that every fish I catch is worth about twelve bucks.  I’d like to get them down to around four dollars/fish some day, so I’d just as soon skip the five hundred dollar graphite blanks. Thanks for any info, Sean

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Rod Building Suppliers http://www.customtackle.com/                    Custom Tackle Supply http://www.mudhole.com                        Mudhole Custom Tackle http://www.shofftackle.com                Shoff Tackle http://www.angelfire.com/ks/bingham/     Bingham Enterprises http://www.anglersworkshop.com                Angler’s Workshop http://www.Cabelas.com                                Cabelas http://www.HuntersAngling.com                  Hunter’s Angling Supplies Expect to spend a minimum of $150 on equipment, closer to $250 for decent equipment. You’ll need a rod wrapper, finishing motor and stand, burnishing tool, exacto knife, epoxy, finish and syringes, mixing cups, thread St. Croix has an excellent reputation for quality inexpensive blanks. I’d have someone teach you the basics rather than learning solely from a book. Good luck, Ian McAllister Rodworks Seattle, WA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve heard from a man that did it that building a fly rod, with the right equipment, can be done reasonably well and with about eight hours of work.  I’d like to invest in the tools and then spend a little less money and a lot more care making rods for myself and my spouse. Any recommendations on inexpensive tools of the trade?  What machines are necessary versus just a convenience?  The best rod building guide? And what to look out for on your first go? Lastly, which are the better of the less expensive blanks?  I’ve invested in fly fishing and fly tying and so I know that every fish I catch is worth about twelve bucks.  I’d like to get them down to around four dollars/fish some day, so I’d just as soon skip the five hundred dollar graphite blanks. Thanks for any info, Sean

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Have a look at the rod building course at http://www.flyanglersonline.com that should help you out. TL MC

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While a rotisserie motor will serve the same purpose as a drying motor, it is the method of attachment between motor and blank that makes the real difference.  My first drying motor was a castoff from an old grill and could be made to work with a piece of all thread and masking tape to build up "bushings" to mount to the motor and the blank, but the problem is getting the blank and the motor shaft aligned so the rod rotates about it’s center rather than in an ellipse.  If you try to apply finish with the rod off center, you wind up chasing your wraps with the brush. It is next to impossible to get clean finish lines under these conditions. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Am I right in thinking that a finishing/drying motor looks suspiciously like a BBQ spit motor, only much more expensive?

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Am I right in thinking that a finishing/drying motor looks suspiciously like a BBQ spit motor, only much more expensive? David Correct ! Works just as well too. TL MC

I’ve seen dishwasher motor rig that also works well for rods. What also works good is if you build a 6 or so inch diameter styrofoam  disc and attach it to the drive for drying epoxy flies. l—–l            [] l        l——- [] l—–l            [] motor  drive  styro the wheel slowly spins and allows the epoxy on the flies to dry in a symmetrically even fashion, which as we all know, will quadruple your chances of catching a fish. Walt — Ezflyfish.com                 Blue Ridge Book Gallery Quality Gear & Service        Used & Out-of-Print Books http://www.ezflyfish.com      http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

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Perfectly true, assymetrical epoxy will cause any self-respecting trout to go into a hissy fit. Unless you are tying flat -headed, flat-sided minnow imitations. In which case, the motor is superfluous. TL MC

dang Mike….i never thought of using pox flies for trout. when i was a resident down south we used to make pox flies fer saltwater fish. walt — Ezflyfish.com                 Blue Ridge Book Gallery Quality Gear & Service        Used & Out-of-Print Books http://www.ezflyfish.com      http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

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I use a really simple method. I took a dowel just a little larger than the sqaure hole on the BBQ motor and cut it square. I then took another dowel just smaller than the size of the Rod Handle.  I then drilled a hole in the middle of this and glued the smaller dowel into it. Once I had the "Chuck" made I simply took a bicycle tube and cut a section out of it. This can then be rolled right onto the rod handle and you have a good chuck that will work for just about any rod.  Plus there is no chance of marring the rod because the Rolled up tube is all that touches the rod. Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While a rotisserie motor will serve the same purpose as a drying motor, it is the method of attachment between motor and blank that makes the real difference.  My first drying motor was a castoff from an old grill and could be made to work with a piece of all thread and masking tape to build up "bushings" to mount to the motor and the blank, but the problem is getting the blank and the motor shaft aligned so the rod rotates about it’s center rather than in an ellipse.  If you try to apply finish with the rod off center, you wind up chasing your wraps with the brush. It is next to impossible to get clean finish lines under these conditions.  Am I right in thinking that a finishing/drying motor looks suspiciously like a BBQ spit motor, only much more expensive?

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Am I right in thinking that a finishing/drying motor looks suspiciously

like a BBQ spit motor, only much more expensive? David

Correct ! Works just as well too. TL MC

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<SNIPPED A cheap drill chuck, obtainable at any hardware store, correctly aligned to the shaft obviates this problem. The best I have seen to date was a special purpose chuck with nylon "fingers".  Otherwise plug and  tape the rod end to prevent damage in the chuck, and do not overtighten. TL MC

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Perfectly true, assymetrical epoxy will cause any self-respecting trout to go into a hissy fit. Unless you are tying flat -headed, flat-sided minnow imitations. In which case, the motor is superfluous. TL MC

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What machines are necessary versus just a convenience?

Make or buy a simple rod wrapping jig if you plan to build several. The best rod building guide?

Dale Clemen’s Advanced Custom Rod Building from Winchester Press is more than you will ever need to know.  You don’t have to agree with everything he writes but he does cover just about everything.  Luis Garcia’s Handcrafting a Graphite Fly Rod from Frank Amato Books has great closeup photos. Lastly, which are the better of the less expensive blanks?

If you are in no rush check out those web sites that others have posted in response to your question around November – February for closeouts, cosmetically defective rods, discontinued blanks, etc. I’ll make one more pitch for MCT epoxy guide wrap finish available at www.fishdoc.com.  You’ll definitely need a drying motor if you decide to use their finish.  I like MCT better than Flex Coat Lite. After applying finish to your wraps, leave several drops of it on a Post-It note or piece of aluminum foil.  Later when you’re trying to guess how much the finish has cured, you can touch one of these test drops rather than potentially spoil your unfinished epoxy coating. Mu

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Question:

Hi: Wasn’t able to make my Belize trip this spring and I’m affraid of the variable weather conditions in the Fall, so I’m thinking about Christmas Is.  I like Belize because of the opportunity to catch various species and the Belize River Lodge guides fish you to death, but I’ve never wade fished and they do say one should go to CI before they die.  What kind of weather conditions can one expect between September and November??? Thanks, Adam

It fishes well 12 months of the year and is 100% wading for bones. The Bahamas, Ascension Bay in Mexico,  Turneffe Flats in Belize and Los Roques in Venezuela are also great bonefish destinations. Belize River Lodge has some of the best tarpon fishing in Central America and also has 3 big boats to take you down south for permit. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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Hi: Wasn’t able to make my Belize trip this spring and I’m affraid of the variable weather conditions in the Fall, so I’m thinking about Christmas Is.  I like Belize because of the opportunity to catch various species and the Belize River Lodge guides fish you to death, but I’ve never wade fished and they do say one should go to CI before they die.  What kind of weather conditions can one expect between September and November??? Thanks, Adam

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Question:

I’ll be in Georgia for 6 days (visiting in-laws…) and would love an excuse to get out for a spell. They live near Columbus, but I generally fish only in Eastern Sierra (Northern California). Any suggestions? A good fly shop to call? Thanks! — Fish more, Fret less…

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I’ll be in Georgia for 6 days (visiting in-laws…)

In that part of Georgia you’ll only find warmwater fishing. Callway Gardens at Pine Mountain offers some great float tube fishing for large bream and bass. If you can get up to Atlanta, we have the Hooch; and if you have time to get into the mountains, there are too many opportunities to list here. Let me know more about your plans — maybe I can be of more assistance. — Visit Dave Teffeteller’s Fly Fishing Guides Home Page http://www.olfart.com

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Question:

Hello, I have read various suggestions about using Albolene, a cosmetic product, and Scotchguard to waterproof dry flies.  My question is has anyone tried to use Albolene to condition and waterproof a floating fly line?  Furthermore I am curious if anyone has used Scotchguard to further waterproof a floating fly line.  After several hours on a stream or river, and alternating between nymphs and dries, I find that my floating line becomes a sinking tip, hence I have to work to fish the evening hatches. I use an Ultra 3 #6 floating line.  Does anyone have any experience with these two ideas?  Thanks, G.

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My question is has anyone tried to use Albolene to condition and waterproof a floating fly line?  Furthermore I am curious if anyone has used Scotchguard to further waterproof a floating fly line.  

Neither is likely to work.  To get any chemical supposed beneficial (because of low density or waterproof-ness) into the coating of a fly line, you would need to use a solvent.  If you found a solvent you could use (e.g. that operated on fly line plastic at room temperatures) it might indeed transport beneficial chemicals into the plastic — but you could not then remove the solvent, so there would be a high risk it would either turn the line sticky (non-shooting) or continue to dissolve, i.e. releasing other plastic chemicals into water. In manufacturing, liquid components of plastic fly line coating are not merely dripped onto the core.  They are also "cooked" at controlled temperatures and pressures, so as to make the plastic, or at least its outer skin, as inert as possible.  The home tinkerer can easily alter this outer skin with solvents — but is not likely also to be able to render the outer skin inert and suitable for fishing for weeks or months. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello, I have read various suggestions about using Albolene, a cosmetic product, and Scotchguard to waterproof dry flies.  My question is has anyone tried to use Albolene to condition and waterproof a floating fly line?  Furthermore I am curious if anyone has used Scotchguard to further waterproof a floating fly line.  After several hours on a stream or river, and alternating between nymphs and dries, I find that my floating line becomes a sinking tip, hence I have to work to fish the evening hatches. I use an Ultra 3 #6 floating line.  Does anyone have any experience with these two ideas?  Thanks, G.

First off, a dry fly and a fly line are two diferent things! Do not wse the mentioned dressing materials on a fly line you want to use anymore, unless you have checked them out on a piece you have cut off the line. second, if you properly sealed the end of your fly line it will remain a floating line. If you did’nt seal it, cut off the end and seal the cut end with flexament(or a simalar product) then put on a loop attachment and you will find that your line will not soak up water by way of the cut end. Bryant

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