Question:

I use a Madriver Tahoe(14Ft). Weighs 52 pounds-easy enough to handle by myself. This is a recreational canoe-wide,and with good primary stability- really good for trips with small children and dogs.

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can somebody recomend a good canoe 12′-15′ long and really light under $600 primarily used for fishing thanks chris

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can somebody recomend a good canoe 12′-15′ long and really light under $600 primarily used for fishing thanks chris

Chris,  You want some initial stability…to give you that casting platform. I’d go with a light kevlar or some kind of composite in a wide hull. I love dynamically designed hulls, but I just haven’t paddled anything       lightweight in a medium to narrow width with the secondary stability that’s necessary to avoid hair-raising adventures with any sudden movements or just wind.  Kevlar, or anything else that would be light is just not cheap_$$$, I’d go the USED route.  Be energetic in your search…and you should find something via the web. $.02, Steve

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can somebody recomend a good canoe 12′-15′ long and really light under $600 primarily used for fishing thanks chris

I use an Old Town Pack, 12 foot long, 33 pounds, on lakes and slow rivers.  New they are near $600, but I got mine used for <$300, including a lovely bent shaft paddle.  I have not had a problem with primary or secondary stability for fishing (YMMV).  I use it for both casting and trolling, while my husband has used it for flyfishing (but not as successfully).  I have found that me, 6 Ft or shorter rods work best in small canoes or kayaks.  Get a nice anchor and a brush anchor too.  Enjoy. Pam in Iowa

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Question:

Sure there’s a better way, but to all those who replied to my post. Many thanks I will follow it up. Mike…. Why not propitious?  ROFF? Where else did you see it? Ian So many questions, so little knowledge!!!

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What do you plan on doing with the bottom and top? Never seen a cane wading staff before…. like to se it when you done john

Actually the old US 10th Division WWII ski poles are made of split cane, like a kind of hell-for-stout cane rod. I’ve got a couple around and have been considering coverting one. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (650)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971          

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Sure there’s a better way, but to all those who replied to my post. Many thanks I will follow it up. Mike…. Why not propitious?  ROFF? Where else did you see it? Ian So many questions, so little knowledge!!!

Too complex to explain the remark on the relative propitiousness of your question I am afraid, it would waste too much space, and probably not make much sense.  I believe I saw the post on one of the UK groups first. Probably uk.rec.fishing.game. ROFF is,  rec.outdoors.fishing.fly, and is an international group, although dominated by Americans.  You posted individually to the groups concerned, and so I realised it was not a troll etc, before I saw it on ROFF.  I replied to your e-mail because I was not certain which groups you read regularly, if at all, and you obviously really did want some info. TL MC

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Hi I’m trying to build some cane and wonder if anyone can help. I’m using the triangular formar method. The info I have is old so need to know what glues are best to use to a) hold the cane to the formar i.e it has to release with heat and b) to glue the cane. Having split the cane it has  side to side bows. i.e it zig zags. Should I straighten this and if so how or just cut oversize and plane straight thereby cutting across the grain more. My father used to build his own rods and I have acquired his cane and formars. I’m only doing it for interest and will only make a wading staff. Cheers  Ian

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Hi I’m trying to build some cane and wonder if anyone can help.

<SNIP Just as well I saw your post elsewhere before it arrived on ROFF.  Not exactly a propitious time to be asking about cane on here.  No way you could know that of course. You will find all you need here; http://www.teleport.com/~gord/canelink.shtml TL MC

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What do you plan on doing with the bottom and top? Never seen a cane wading staff before…. like to se it when you done john

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Hi I’m trying to build some cane and wonder if anyone can help.

<snip I’m only doing it for interest and will only make a wading staff.

Ian In my opinion, seems like a lot of trouble to go through just to make a wading staff (hell, for that matter, it’s a lot of trouble to go through to make a fishing pole )  It sounds like you already have the major tools that you need.  Go ahead and make yourself a rod.  It’s not that hard. Mike Connor already listed a very good reference link.  Let me recommend another.  The Rodmakers’ site has a wealth of information on building cane rods.  You might want to subscribe to the mailing list and pose some of your questions there.  I would recommend searching the rather extensive list archives first, however, since a lot of your questions may have already been asked and answered.  Here’s a link to the site: http://www.canerod.com/rodmakers/ As far a straitening goes, most people today use an electric heat gun to gently warm the bamboo.  This softens it and allows you to straighten it by hand or in a vise.  This is a fairly tedious and time consuming process. Regarding glues, the choices are too many to discuss here.  You will find many suggestions on the Rodmaker’s site. Good luck and have fun! Keith

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I’d highly recommend the  rodmakers mailing list. I did when building my first rod and got a lot of help from some very knowledgeable rod builders. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I’m trying to build some cane and wonder if anyone can help. <snip I’m only doing it for interest and will only make a wading staff. Ian In my opinion, seems like a lot of trouble to go through just to make a wading staff (hell, for that matter, it’s a lot of trouble to go through to make a fishing pole )  It sounds like you already have the major tools that you need.  Go ahead and make yourself a rod.  It’s not that hard. Mike Connor already listed a very good reference link.  Let me recommend another.  The Rodmakers’ site has a wealth of information on building cane rods.  You might want to subscribe to the mailing list and pose some of your questions there.  I would recommend searching the rather extensive list archives first, however, since a lot of your questions may have already been asked and answered.  Here’s a link to the site: http://www.canerod.com/rodmakers/ As far a straitening goes, most people today use an electric heat gun to gently warm the bamboo.  This softens it and allows you to straighten it by hand or in a vise.  This is a fairly tedious and time consuming process. Regarding glues, the choices are too many to discuss here.  You will find many suggestions on the Rodmaker’s site. Good luck and have fun! Keith

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Still up late putting the fourth coat on a run of fifteen Happy Hooker blanks for the San Mateo show.  I don’t think I will have enough time to do them all but at least this explains why I’m on the tapering computer tonight. (snip)         george, please allow me to take this opportunity on behalf of all the little people here on roff to express our undying gratitude for this thrilling opportunity to share in the astonishing excitement generated by your "blow by blow" report of the fascinating process of creating those little works of art that bear the timeless and classy name of "happy hooker".         it is a tribute to your matchless magnanimity that you would take even an instant out of the awesome undertaking of this  historic venture to bless us with these stunning insights in to your genius. we can only grovel at your virtual feet in gratitude for our own unworthiness, and offer up thanks on behalf  of our humble lineage, yet unborn, that will gaze with wonder upon  our printouts of the words and actions of a true legend.         for myself, a personal note, much in the style of gus mcrae: "magnum manurum victorum bordomdom est"!   and i mean that with all my heart, george. wayno

___–  Wayne, old chap.  Believe this or not but the following of greatness eludes you.  There are a hundred advocates to the project that started as a dare on ROFF and like it or not, you fool . . . the information of those who may wish to "roll their own" i.e. (make their own fly rods) will be possible at the San Mateo Show for a lot less money then any other bamboo fly rod maker in this entire world. If you could "afford" to come to San Mateo (which is like thinking a fool could become a genius) you would realize that your worst enemy is yourself and that here is a better friend then you could ever imagine. I know what your problem is and so do you.  The difference is, I know how to deal and correct mine.  YOU, on the other hand still live in a world of ’self denial’ and those that suffer your foolishness are the ones that love you best. Screw you and all your excuses.  You’re not man enough to return to reality pard. Think about it! In short Wayne, you’re drunk again.   — (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

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Now, this was a long time ago, now, but as I remember it, George claimed he could mass-produce bamboo rods for under $300.  How long had he been thinking of trying before making the claim, or how serious was his pre-ROFF "planning"?  Who knows? Essentially, with much toing and froing, he was told by a number of people, "Bullshit.  Can’t be done.  Put your money where your mouth is."  A number of people agreed to buy rods at the proposed price if George built them.  My recollection is of not so much a challenge or wager as a dare–Roffians calling what they understandably thought was an empty bluff. OK, things went far and fast downhill from there (price, quality, customer relations, etc., etc.).  I’m not defending George as a rod-builder, businessman, or human being.  He’s certainly shown grave failings on all these counts.  His behavior on this NG is often far less than admirable and his behavior as a businessman appears to be purely reprehensible, hurting himself, probably, more than anyone else.  I too have stopped using Gink, in part because I discovered I "don’t like the management."  In the end, George proved that he could *not* do what he claimed he could, i.e., build a high-quality production rod for less than $300. Unhappily, he also appears to have proved along the way several other things about himself.  All I am saying is that–contrary to what I still maintain *everyone* thought at the time (that is, that George, being a blowhard, would not do anything at all, but would find some excuse to cop out)–he did put his money where his mouth was and made the attempt.  He failed; he treated customers, at least one employee, and potential friends abysmally in the attempt.  I’m not defending any of that, only saying that it’s pretty remarkable that any of this happened at all, rather than ending up just another NG thread full of b.s. that flares up in the ether then peters out. JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George had plans to make the rod before he ever brought it up on roff. Contrary to popular myth, no one on roff "challenged" him to make the rod.  We all know what a bullshitter/liar he is, so how can you deal or "challenge" such a person?  BTW, he came nowhere near the price he first quoted.  At $583, he is way past what he originally quoted. rest snipped for brevity…

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Yes, real tragic, I went there twice and gave to the project on got screwed. Without me those first few rods would not exist. G couldn’t and wouldn’t pay attention. The mill is nothing special. He didn’t have the touch to pull it off by himself.

Yes, and I know the details and it sucks and I did and do feel sorry for what happened. [deleted] Tbone stick it in your ear you know nothing cause you wern’t there, I WAS!

I commented only on the empirical data I cited:  He had a line of production rods at a major fly show. Did the means justify the end ? I do not know, have no way of knowing. Question (not rhetorical) Hairy: Why don’t you do it ? Your talent is obvious and if you’re really resentful of George that would be the ultimate way to show it. Competition would be great and I’m still in the market for a servicable bamboo fly rod for under the price of a good graphite. — YBone

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[deleted] And maybe this Litte Brown Nose post of yours will get you one.

Personally, I think George only made one mistake…a spiritual one..with his first rod. He knows what it was and he has been paying ever since. — YBone

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Opey’s Dad’s "review that came through the virtual transom," offered "for the sake of good order and balance", as interesting as it is, would carry more weight if it were not anonymous. JR

Anonymous my ass, that as my dad! Opie  –wishing dad would write to me, seems as though I hardly know him–

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[deleted] And maybe this Litte Brown Nose post of yours will get you one. Personally, I think George only made one mistake…a spiritual one..with his first rod.

You can’t possibly be *that* clueless… can you? — Charlie…

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Question (not rhetorical) Hairy: Why don’t you do it ?

Tbone at least you figured out that I attacked what you wrote and not you. And forgive me for all my smilly faces..that I forgot… ;-);-);-) better? His little dirt mill he paid a fortune and it did not work. All total there was much less than $2K in materials in it. While there, I brought it through several versions and improvments. And it would and did work if he wasn’t in a hurry. If he knew everything, then why was I there? I have been very tight lipped on all the imporvements that should have been made for obvious reasons. Now Tbone, to answer your real question, "I Could Do It." What I want for my time and what G pays his sweat shop labors ($7) is a very big difference. Better quality and a much higer price. Compitition with G? I would be a hands down winner in an instant about quality. G gardens nickels. I would garden ben franklins. Big difference. G markets with a shitty product. I would have a quality product and no market. So right there is the rub. Dumb people that don’t know any better get sucked into spending money on his glorified tomato stakes. HT

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Personally, I think George only made one mistake…a spiritual one..with his first rod. He knows what it was and he has been paying ever since.

%50 correct, ad my son’s rod to the mix too! HT

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Ya know… [snip] Well….for one thing I’d like to declare that George won the bet. I mean…there WAS George, my friends, at the Denver Fly Fishing Show…by God.  In a booth with ginger/honey/burnt blanks there can be no doubt about it. Pay up your flies and shut up your traps busters.

Speaking of bets I’m stilling waiting for you to pay up a dozen yellow humpys from October of 1999. Paul

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Speaking of bets I’m stilling waiting for you to pay up a dozen yellow humpys from October of 1999.

Post the reference. — TBone

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Everybody on this forum, practically without reserve, supported Mr.Gehrke in his efforts, not only with his rods, but with his website and other things. Many defended him against all comers, even long after their better judgement should have advised them otherwise. They would doubtless still be doing so, if he had not extremely successfully alienated just about everybody who offered support. Quite a few congratulated him on his progress, and gave advice and support on many occasions. He simply failed to recognise it as such, and insisted that his 300$ rods were the equal of any 1000$ rods around. This is patent nonsense. In actual fact, competent observers were of the opinion that they were not even worth 300$. However this may be, and notwithstanding the possibility that the rods are now excellent value, anybody who has followed the saga would be a fool to buy one. Mr.Gehrke is his own worst enemy. Nobody else is at fault here. Defending him on this forum, in this manner, is absolutely ridiculous, as you must be aware, and I find myself asking why you are doing it ? Hope you get a rod anyway, and I hope you enjoy it if you do.   Even were I to receive one as a gift, ( which I would not accept in any case), I would associate so much bad feeling with it, that it would ruin my fishing, quite irrespective of its qualities as a fishing tool. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de Ya know… It’s really too bad the days when folkes were making bamboo rods for the masses are gone.

<SNIP

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Speaking of bets I’m stilling waiting for you to pay up a dozen yellow humpys from October of 1999. Post the reference. — TBone

My mistake it was four(4) Irresistables. On 8-OCT-99 Louie claims in the thread "One Lie & Exaggeration Too Many by Daytripper" that " Day Tripper can *not* be egged on by anyone. " Shortly thereafter you posted a reply:         "Betcha 4 #18 Irresistables that he can…" Then I replied that I’d take the bet to which you replied:         "Ok…he responds to one of my trolls and you send me the dry flies…right ?         What’s my time limit ?" my reply to your time limit was:         "until Sunday the 17th, If you can’t get his goat by then no one can.         sf" On the 18th when I claimed victory you wanted to change the rules to 90 days. (Sounds like gore v. bush) Then in an email you sent me you said you’ld pay up. The message with headers is attached to the end of this post (although I did remove my street address). If anyone cares to verify this do a search on Deja of the past  post on ROFF. Paul Received: from ns1.aspenres.com (ns1.aspenres.com [204.131.50.1])  by eagle.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA26773 Received: from twalker (204.131.50.154) by ns1.aspenres.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 X-UIDL: f5d4ea1f8b0505fb39de6bced9c2f138 Status: RO I might just do that if for no other reason than Littleton, Co is my home town….but certainly not as the result of losing any bet !  Not yet…I have 78 days to go and (actually) I think the Mr.G setup/Big Brown Followup/Daytripper HOOK SWALLOW counts. But it’s weak at best so back to work… — TimW —–Original Message—– Hi Tim It’s Salmon_Fly You can send the Flies to Paul Goodwin

[snip]

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So along comes George and off a bet on the Internet

George was blowharding how there was no more that $50 material and workmanship in a modern bamboo rod. There was no bet. — Charlie…

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JR writes:

(snip) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Now, from what a lot of people have said, maintenance of quality control has been a big, big, big problem.  On the other hand, at least a few people, including one of the few Roffians I’ve met in person and whose opinion I trust, are happy with the rod they got, although otherwise no admirers of George’s persona here. So, is a company that can produce only one good final product out of five (or 10 or even 100) a viable concern?  Probably not, but this is a company that was started from a series of wagers and dares on a *newgroup* for Pete’s sake.  T-Bone is right about one thing:  George said–on the flimsiest of grounds, mind you–that he’d start a bamboo rod company, and he did it.  Everything else aside (and there is a quite lot, much of it unpretty, I admit), George deserves some credit at least for doing what *no one* believed he’d actually do. Opey’s Dad’s "review that came through the virtual transom," offered "for the sake of good order and balance", as interesting as it is, would carry more weight if it were not anonymous. JR

George had plans to make the rod before he ever brought it up on roff. Contrary to popular myth, no one on roff "challenged" him to make the rod.  We all know what a bullshitter/liar he is, so how can you deal or "challenge" such a person?  BTW, he came nowhere near the price he first quoted.  At $583, he is way past what he originally quoted.  For another $150 *or less*, you can get a *hand crafted* fly rod from a reputable rod builder, that looks, cast better, and has more value than anything George has made. George sent some rods to different people.  They *were not* production rods. They were rods that he very carefully built.  Steve sort of challenged George by saying if G would send a rod to him, he would give it an honest evaluation. What an opportunity for George!!!!  He worked hard and produced a fairly nice rod and sent it to Steve who gave it a good revue.  But, it was not a production rod.   George sent Dave Tatosian and me Bastard rods #11 and #12.  Because of George’s attitude and action I had canceled my order, but he sent it via Dave anyway.  I was touched that George would do such a thing.  It was a magnanimus gesture as far as I was concerned.  I took the rod and inspected it.  It was horribly constructed.  Twisted, curved, handle offset, glue lines, drips — it was horrible.  I put the rod together anyway and the ferrules did not fit.  He had given me the butt section with a  ferrule from XY company, and a tip with a ferrule from BX company — the rod was unfishable.  If you attempted to cast it, the tip would fly off. Dave’s #12 was no better.  It too was horrible and unfishable.  Dave had paid the freight – $40 – to receive these rods, and now he had to send them back – another $40.  Both of us had agreed to say nothing on roff about these rods. We did not want to embarass George.    We said nothing until George accused us of being provacateurs and sabataging his rods.  *WE* were responsible for the bent and twisted tips and butts.  *WE* were responsible for everything that was wrong with the rods.  *WE* took sandpaper to the ferrules so that they no longer fit properly.  Everything was *OUR* fault.  Everyone knew that it was plain bullshit on George’s part.  But the story doesn’t end with Dave and me.  Wish it did, but, uh uh. You see, George told everyone he destroyed the rods — burned em, he said.  But good old #12 returned and ended up in several peoples’ hands.  The first was Bob Smith (Plainties).  When Bob returned it (paying the freight both ways), George was insulted.  When another rod builder, a man of some fame, returned a set of blanks, George attacked both of them.  At one point he even verbally attacked Bob’s wife.   So you see, JR, why many of us have boycotted *anything* that George makes.  It appears from what I now hear that the boycot is well founded in that Gehrke continues to make crap.  But I do have a bottle of Gink.  No gink in it.  I fill it with Albolene (pain in the ass, I might add),  and it *thinks* it’s Gink.  Works just as well. Dave LaCourse Pirate and Bottom Dweller and so proud of it…..

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Paul Goodwin writes:

(snipped) Geeeeze.  Remind me never to bet with you!  And I’ll never borrow money off of you either!   <g Dave

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Still up late putting the fourth coat on a run of fifteen Happy Hooker blanks for the San Mateo show.  I don’t think I will have enough time to do them all but at least this explains why I’m on the tapering computer tonight. Another problem is not having enough time to run as many tips as we will need but that can be done after the show.  It takes nearly thirty minutes to dip each  coat and several hours after that to dry, but the blanks are looking good. — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com "the sage continues"

  gink.vcf

< 1K Download

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Still up late putting the fourth coat on a run of fifteen Happy Hooker blanks for the San Mateo show.  I don’t think I will have enough time to do them all but at least this explains why I’m on the tapering computer tonight.

(snip)         george, please allow me to take this opportunity on behalf of all the little people here on roff to express our undying gratitude for this thrilling opportunity to share in the astonishing excitement generated by your "blow by blow" report of the fascinating process of creating those little works of art that bear the timeless and classy name of "happy hooker".         it is a tribute to your matchless magnanimity that you would take even an instant out of the awesome undertaking of this  historic venture to bless us with these stunning insights in to your genius. we can only grovel at your virtual feet in gratitude for our own unworthiness, and offer up thanks on behalf  of our humble lineage, yet unborn, that will gaze with wonder upon  our printouts of the words and actions of a true legend.         for myself, a personal note, much in the style of gus mcrae: "magnum manurum victorum bordomdom est"!   and i mean that with all my heart, george. wayno

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Glad to hear from old Gus. Don"t think McMurtry"s new book ‘ "Boone’s Lick" will make it to screen unless he gets Opra  to play the mother. IJ

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Ya know… It’s really too bad the days when folkes were making bamboo rods for the masses are gone. Tragic, really. I can not afford a thousand bucks for a bamboo fly rod but think I would be happy with one of the commerical ones of yesteryear.  Maybe a "Sears & Roebuck Good’nuf" model.  Ya know what I mean ?  We can get an Ugly Stick, which is a damned good value of a tool…but nothing like it exists in the bamboo world today, that I’ve found anyway. So along comes George and off a bet on the Internet, in these very halls, says he *can* bring these back And ya know what…he does. We can grovel about the initial production run quality issues and some business decisions and stuff, but that’s what I’d expect from an initial production run. Wouldn’t you ? With millions of dollar backing you could throw away the first few runs. Not so when you gotta eat. They become prototypes. Something to build on. Next time…I’ll do ‘this’ with the finish. We know the history of this venture. This was no cake walk for George, who shared with us (and anyone of us who thinks they can do better) every [personal] sweat off his brow. He made some friends, he made some enemies. He started the Little Brown Truck (I’m still waiting…) You *literally* could publish a book just from the posts here.  Someone probably will. What does it mean ? Well….for one thing I’d like to declare that George won the bet. I mean…there WAS George, my friends, at the Denver Fly Fishing Show…by God.  In a booth with ginger/honey/burnt blanks there can be no doubt about it. Pay up your flies and shut up your traps busters. As for the boredom of this post.  Ya get out what you put in sometimes and I got out something really cool and what was probably really hard for George (George doesn’t whine so it’s hard to know)…the business decision of getting his ass in the show with some product and (what must be very difficult and take huge huevos) make the tip sections later. Real world stuff for a guy with a milling machine in the garage. He posted *from* his taper computer.  How freakin’ studly is that ? Bravo George. — TBone

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Still up late putting the fourth coat on a run of fifteen Happy Hooker blanks for the San Mateo show.  I don’t think I will have enough time to do them all but at least this explains why I’m on the tapering computer tonight. Another problem is not having enough time to run as many tips as we will need but that can be done after the show.  It takes nearly thirty minutes to dip each  coat and several hours after that to dry, but the blanks are looking good.

_______FOR the sake of good order and balance, here’s a review that came in through the virtual transom *a few weeks ago* (<== keep that in mind). Didn’t write it, just passing it along. But it seems appropriate, right here, right now. Take it or leave it… /Opey’s Dad   (…and have a SUPER day! "Even using the term Rodmaker around anything resembling the Bastard is insulting all rodmakers as well as all Bastards!   "I went to a fly-fishing show in Denver this morning and looked around for bargains and the usual "stuff" that a flyfisher needs from time to time. "Alas, who is there in full force but Hizzoner the Gink hiself!  Even had the kid with the entourage!  I looked at the rods, (whoa there feller, lets not insult rods) I mean Poles, that he had on display at the show.  I have five year old  grandson who could do a better job! "No Shit, guys -n- gals!  This guy turns out crap and it has a Capital C in big red letters!  Missed finishing several spots of the windings on every rod!!  NO winding check and the forward end of the cork grips looked as if it had been cut with a dull axe and then run over a few times. He told me he didn’t put checks on to save costs!!!!   "I am just a plastic builder who lurks here to learn all I can about the jillion or so aspects of the trade of rodbuilding, and I guarantee you that no rod of that caliber will EVER, EVER, EVER leave my shop!  Let alone be taken to a flyfishing show and displayed as craftsmanship.  What a joke! "If you real builders are concerned in the LEAST about this yahoo producing anything that might be remotely construed as a bamboo rod, worry NOT!!!  I venture that he was the complete laughingstock of the show and now 10,000 flyfishers know what his crap looks like!   I did not even bother to cast one of them, wouldn’t waste my time!!!  (And I’m Cheap!!!, just ask all the ladies!!)  I’m not one ti talk most folks down but this guy is out there a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong ways! an average of NO rods/day!  This guy has not built one to date if his life’s work is like what I saw today.  I literally chuckled for four hours as I walked the show floor!  This guy wouldn’t make a pimple on a rodbuilder’s butt! "As I see it, any further ink about the Bastard Rod is a lie, there is no such thing!!  What I saw today is not, by any stretch of my imagination, a rod. sorta like the old riddle about what do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back? "A stick!"

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And ya know what…he does. We can grovel about the initial production run quality issues and some business decisions and stuff, but that’s what I’d expect from an initial production run. Wouldn’t you ?

Certainly. Unfortunately, George wasn’t willing to accept or admit to the fact that they were only "initial production run" quality. And, two years later they’re still initial production run quality. If he had been willing to simply admit that the rods had problems–some of them serious–nearly everyone would still be championing his effort. 99% of the grief he’s taken on this forum can be directly attributed to his inability to be honest about the quality of his work. Period. End of story. We know the history of this venture. This was no cake walk for George, who shared with us (and anyone of us who thinks they can do better) every [personal] sweat off his brow. He made some friends, he made some enemies. He started the Little Brown Truck (I’m still waiting…)

And maybe this Litte Brown Nose post of yours will get you one. –Steve

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We know the history of this venture. This was no cake walk for George, who shared with us (and anyone of us who thinks they can do better) every [personal] sweat off his brow. He made some friends, he made some enemies. He started the Little Brown Truck (I’m still waiting…) And maybe this Litte Brown Nose post of yours will get you one.

Sorry to follow up my own post, but for all you out there awaiting delivery of a Bastard rod, I’ve got one I’ll sell you that is available for immediate delivery. It’s been used only a couple of times and I believe it represents the very best rod that the production line has ever produced. It’s in essentially new condition (except for the fact that I straightened the tip, which was a bit crooked when I received it). $350 plus shipping will deliver it right to your door. Contact me via email if interested. –Steve

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Well, I’ve never seen a Bastard rod, but I have followed the history of this business a bit.  In late 98, early 99, before taking off to Rwanda for a year, I read ROFF frequently and posted occasionally.  One of the most amusing shticks then was George declaring he would, then setting out to produce inexpensive mass-market bamboo rods.  There was a lot of nonsense about the name, price, guarantees, etc., but I think it safe to say that most, if not all people on ROFF assumed it was run-of-the-mill BS and would simply never happen.  When I came back to the U.S. in the summer of 2000, I was frankly astounded that rods had been built and at least some sold. Now, from what a lot of people have said, maintenance of quality control has been a big, big, big problem.  On the other hand, at least a few people, including one of the few Roffians I’ve met in person and whose opinion I trust, are happy with the rod they got, although otherwise no admirers of George’s persona here.  So, is a company that can produce only one good final product out of five (or 10 or even 100) a viable concern?  Probably not, but this is a company that was started from a series of wagers and dares on a *newgroup* for Pete’s sake.  T-Bone is right about one thing:  George said–on the flimsiest of grounds, mind you–that he’d start a bamboo rod company, and he did it.  Everything else aside (and there is a quite lot, much of it unpretty, I admit), George deserves some credit at least for doing what *no one* believed he’d actually do. Opey’s Dad’s "review that came through the virtual transom," offered "for the sake of good order and balance", as interesting as it is, would carry more weight if it were not anonymous. JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – _______FOR the sake of good order and balance, here’s a review that came in through the virtual transom *a few weeks ago* (<== keep that in mind). Didn’t write it, just passing it along. But it seems appropriate, right here, right now. Take it or leave it…

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Ya know… It’s really too bad the days when folkes were making bamboo rods for the masses are gone. Tragic, really.

Yes, real tragic, I went there twice and gave to the project on got screwed. Without me those first few rods would not exist. G couldn’t and wouldn’t pay attention. The mill is nothing special. He didn’t have the touch to pull it off by himself. He started the Little Brown Truck (I’m still waiting…)

Lies just lies, http://x67.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=511646402&CONTEXT=980711354.2046099489&hitnum=2 You *literally* could publish a book just from the posts here.  Someone probably will.

Should be called, "Bullshit ‘n Bamboo" Well….for one thing I’d like to declare that George won the bet. I mean…there WAS George, my friends, at the Denver Fly Fishing Show…by God.  In a booth with ginger/honey/burnt blanks there can be no doubt about it. Pay up your flies and shut up your traps busters.

As far as I’m concern G lost the bet cause he did not do by himself! Real world stuff for a guy with a milling machine in the garage.

More correct than a bamboo studio….. He posted *from* his taper computer.  How freakin’ studly is that ?

TAPER COMPUTER!!!!!! Such bullshit…..try a #2 lead pencil. The  first H.H. was read justed with a #2 graphite pencil. All he had was data points from Paul Whitely, what fucking computer program? Walt Winters rod was the basis for what i felt needed to be changed, and so the #2 lead pencil computation change. Tbone stick it in your ear you know nothing cause you wern’t there, I WAS! HT

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Ya know… … Bravo George.

Prattle on if you wish Timbo, but his hubris, deceit, outright lies and character assassination cannot be brushed off as eccentricities or the foibles of an old curmudgeon. George Gehrke is a vile and vicious little man of no character and defending him in this forum is preposterous. — Ken Fortenberry

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Question:

i have noticed some of the most attractive women are found at the pay lakes  i have been visiting does anyone else notice this?

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i have noticed some of the most attractive women are found at the pay lakes  i have been visiting does anyone else notice this?

I dunno.  I never notice the really good looking ones at the pay lakes until I’m into my second 12-pack.   *                                                               * *  ENTOMOLOGIST    ANTIQUE TACKLE COLLECTOR    ALL-AROUND NUT   *

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Ha Ha!          I got a good chuckle outta THIS one!  I happen to WORK at a "pay lake" and my sentiments would have to be along the same lines as Creek Chub’s comment! ::ahem:; except when my girlfriend is visitng (as she is looking on as I post this!!) Happy fishing!

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Wow, and I thought I was running out of topics to talk about during the "off season". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -i have noticed some of the most attractive women are found at the pay lakes i have been visiting does anyone else notice this?

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JB,     You might like hanging out at some at some Trailer Parks too. I hear they have some mighty fine females there too!! Good Luck :~) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i have noticed some of the most attractive women are found at the pay lakes  i have been visiting does anyone else notice this?

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i have noticed some of the most attractive women are found at the pay lakes  i have been visiting does anyone else notice this?

OK, I give up…….  what is a "pay" lake? Hans

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OK, I give up…….  what is a "pay" lake? Hans

Hans,  A pay lake is a stocked lake that you pay to fish at. Usually a set fee, but some charge by the fish or pound. Generally these are catfish and trout type stockings, but I have seen most all kinds being offered. I remember 1 guy at the Fishermans Dude Ranch in Des Plaines Il took all his kids fishing. He didn’t realize this was a by the pound, and these trout were starving. It cost him $65.00 to get out of there and this was 30 years ago. I went there because I wanted to see what it was like to catch trout on a fly. Illinois didn’t have many trout streams back in the 60’s. Used a barbless hook and made a big deal everytime they came off. Had the time of my life, at least for a teenager. Mark Brandt Are you a walleye Fanatic, Try The Walleye List at http://members.iquest.net/~mbrandt  where over 220 walleye anglers discuss walleye fishing via e-mail every day.

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OK, I give up…….  what is a "pay" lake? Hans

A pay lake is a stocked lake or pond that you pay a fee to fish at. Usually these are stocked with either catfish or trout, altho I have seen where all species are available. You either pay one set fee for a limit of fish or as many as you want and you pay by the fish or weight. You have to watch it at these types tho. Back when I was a teenager I used to go to the Fishermans Dude Ranch in Des Plaines Il to fly fish for trout. I knew this was a pay by the pound place, but in the 60’s this was the only trout stream I had access too. I would use a barbless hook and play the fish until it came off. I would take home maybe 1 fish. One time I was there and this guy brings in all his kids. They supplied poles if you needed them. Well this guy walked out of there with $65 worth of trout, and this was 30 years ago. They watched you like a hawk, couldn’t throw any back. Seems like so long ago. Mark Are you a walleye fanatic. Try joining The Walleye List at http://members.iquest.net/~mbrandt where over 220 walleye anglers discusss walleye fishing via e-mail.

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NO

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, I give up…….  what is a "pay" lake? Hans Hans,  A pay lake is a stocked lake that you pay to fish at. Usually a set fee, but some charge by the fish or pound. Generally these are catfish and trout type stockings, but I have seen most all kinds being offered. I remember 1 guy at the Fishermans Dude Ranch in Des Plaines Il took all his kids fishing. He didn’t realize this was a by the pound, and these trout were starving. It cost him $65.00 to get out of there and this was 30 years ago. I went there because I wanted to see what it was like to catch trout on a fly. Illinois didn’t have many trout streams back in the 60’s. Used a barbless hook and made a big deal everytime they came off. Had the time of my life, at least for a teenager. Mark Brandt Are you a walleye Fanatic, Try The Walleye List at http://members.iquest.net/~mbrandt  where over 220 walleye anglers discuss walleye fishing via e-mail every day.

Hey thanks for the memories – I used to take the kids to that place just off the tollway to get a fish ( trout) when we could not catch someting at Busse lake or others – had to mash down the hooks so they would lose them . The trout always tasted funny kind of like algae…But they were nice looking….. Former Chicagoan

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Question:

Does anyone know any books published on the topic of flyfishing and/ or tying for the trout of New England? Bill W

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Does anyone know any books published on the topic of flyfishing and/ or tying for the trout of New England?

Bill, Vermont Trout Streams by Farrow Allen is an excellent resource.  It is published by Northern Cartographic in Burlington Vermont.  Fly Tiers Heaven website is a local fly shop that stocks many regional books.  Hope this helps. James Ehlers Underhill, Vermont Uncle Jammer’s Guide Service Vermont Fly Fishing, Hunting, River and Woodland Outings http://pobox.com/~uncle

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Does anyone know any books published on the topic of flyfishing and/ or tying for the trout of New England? Bill W

Hi, A really good book, but just for Vermont is : Fishing Vermont’s Streams and Lakes by Peter Cammann, published by Backcountry Press. I assume there are similar books for other N.E. states, but my sister lives in vermont, so there you go. Bill

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At least for Maine there are some books by a guy named Al Raychard, "Allagash" by Dean Bennett, and "Complete Guide to Fly Fishing Maine" by Bob Newman. Chris

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Question:

Anyone have experience using sidefinding transducers on fishfinders? I see that Apelco, Bottomline, Humminbird and perhaps others make them. Do they do a decent job seeing targets and structure near the surface, without undue interference from shore or surface? I do a lot of inshore flyfishing, am usually fishing in the top 10 feet or so of water. Some people (maybe including me — my jury’s out) may find issues of enjoyment and perhaps sportsmanship weighing against using such transducers, but for the moment I’m just wondering how good the technology is. — Mark Parsons

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I had been very sceptical about the accuracy of any fish finding device period, until I picked up a bottom line Fishing Buddy II, which I mainly bought for depth finding and temperature readings, more than actually "fish " finding. Then on one outing to a new lake, a friend and I clamped this thing on his canoe, and I tried the side finding mode. Wow, there were no fish rising, but every time I cast to the indicated area, I got a strike! Being new to flyfishing at the time, I didn’t land all that many of the fish, but I was amazed at the accuracy of the information, especially since all the brookies were small (4"-10"). Now I’m sure this unit isn’t really any better than any of the others out there, but I now believe that electronics, when properly used can be a great deal of help.        Mike

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Anyone have experience using sidefinding transducers on fishfinders? I see that Apelco, Bottomline, Humminbird and perhaps others make them. Do they do a decent job seeing targets and structure near the surface, without undue interference from shore or surface? I do a lot of inshore flyfishing, am usually fishing in the top 10 feet or so of water. Some people (maybe including me — my jury’s out) may find issues of enjoyment and perhaps sportsmanship weighing against using such transducers, but for the moment I’m just wondering how good the technology is. — Mark Parsons

Mark-         I also spend alot of time in fairly shallow water 10-12′ or less, and find the sidefinder to actually be of more use then the down finder. Granted you do get some false hits occasionally, but the sidefinder helps me to determine if I am in a populated area better then the downfinder in this shallow water. In deeper water I might expect the opposite.. -Dan-

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Mark Parson writes: Some people (maybe including me — my jury’s out) may find issues of enjoyment and perhaps sportsmanship weighing against using such transducers, but for the moment I’m just wondering how good the technology is.

I also wonder about the use of fishfinders while fly fishing. It sort of rubs me wrong to consider doing it … but I’d sure like to not waste a lot of time blind casting to empty areas devoid of fish. Has the fly fishing puritan ethic cut too deeply here? Are there any other fly fishermen using fish finders … was there any guilt involved … yea, I expect some flames on this … but I’m curious if anyone else is going thru the mental gymnastics of attempting to incorporate some technology and also understand the why of the seeming guilt. Bob Vorel

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I own a Fishing Buddy II which can be attached to my float tube, it has helped with depth and temps, but I have had a hard time placeing much confidence in it’s  fish detecting feature.  I have found the audible tone it emits very intrusive.  It also  seems to hang my flyline alot.  If it dropped to the bottom of the lake tomorrow     I wouldn’t buy another. Simple is Best.                                           Tight Lines

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Hi,   When I hear someone commenting "that’s cheating" when refering to sonar units, I ask them if they had the oppertunity, would they stand on a tall overlook and see the fish in the water before fishing it…   We were using sonar on floattubes 15 years ago and by directing the transducer by hand, we could look under structure and "sidefind". Too bad we thought it was public domain and didn’t patent it ;^(   Interpretation of the screen is the hard part for most anglers. Jim Jim, Nevada Jim’s Outdoor Sports, Elko, NV

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Anyone have experience using sidefinding transducers on fishfinders? I see that Apelco, Bottomline, Humminbird and perhaps others make them. Do they do a decent job seeing targets and structure near the surface, without undue interference from shore or surface? I do a lot of inshore flyfishing, am usually fishing in the top 10 feet or so of water. Some people (maybe including me — my jury’s out) may find issues of enjoyment and perhaps sportsmanship weighing against using such transducers, but for the moment I’m just wondering how good the technology is. — Mark Parsons

I have used the Hummingbird sidefinder.  It helps find structure, but I thought thought it was pretty funky.  It spotted fish (big salmon) when there were no fish there, and the distances seemed to be off by a large margin.   The bottom finder was great. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley          alias hawleyb(at)juno.com 2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

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Question:

No question about it being a useful fishing tool. However I retired it because of its sentimental value to me But not before teaching my son to fly fish with it. It now has a place next to my desk in my office along with the old remains of the old bamboo rod and my fathers willow creel. I was just curious about its value. It sounds to me, perhaps, that it is priceless. TimW

Damn good answer *              Standard Disclaimer Applies<<<                *       *                                                               * *  ENTOMOLOGIST    ANTIQUE TACKLE COLLECTOR    ALL-AROUND NUT   * * "the line between human and nonhuman is, like all lines,      * *  one that should be drawn in pencil, so that it can be moved  * *  to accomodate moral evolution and the realization of moral   * *  reality"                                                     * *  –Rutgers University Prof. G L Francione (who, incidentally, * *  as of 13 Feb 1997 uses the Rutgers University logo on the    * *  very same web page where he hawks his rather dry, poorly-    * *  written books…..AND posted to talk.politics.animals        * *  recently using a pseudonym)                                  * *                                                               * *  "Animal rights lunatics are misguided fools" –me            *        

Response:

No question about it being a useful fishing tool. However I retired it because of its sentimental value to me But not before teaching my son to fly fish with it. It now has a place next to my desk in my office along with the old remains of the old bamboo rod and my fathers willow creel. I was just curious about its value.

It sounds to me, perhaps, that it is priceless. TimW

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No question about it being a useful fishing tool. However I retired it because of its sentimental value to me But not before teaching my son to fly fish with it. It now has a place next to my desk in my office along with the old remains of the old bamboo rod and my fathers willow creel. I was just curious about its value. — Regards, Ken

Ken,         If it is Brass and has a Bulldog emblem, it would be the Pfleuger Progress reel, value about $55. Reed

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I have an old Pfluger fly real that was passed to me when I was kid (back in the ice age). It is the essence of simplicity and made mostly of brass. Small in size. It was mounted on an old cheap (as in originally didn’t cost much) split bamboo three piece rod. No label, guides or tip survived the ravages of storage in my parents basement. Question is, does the real have any value other then the obvious sentimental value? — Regards, Ken

Ken- Value, as in could you turn around and sell it for a Whoop of cash?  NO… ..but it’s still a plenty useful fishing tool.  I’d recommend taking it to the gas station and blowing air through it to remove all the dust, giving it a good wipe down and lube job and checking all the screws to make sure they’re tight.. cuz they’re getting tough to replace.  You may want to consider removing the screws and applying a drop of LocTite to them (or head cement) and then threading them back in place. I still have 6 old Pflugers and use them quite a bit….they tend to be rather heavy on the newer graphite rods and are tough to "balance" to an outfit, but it depends on the type (and volume!) of fishing you’re doing if this will pose a "reel" problem   =8^)) Larry #:)#

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No question about it being a useful fishing tool. However I retired it because of its sentimental value to me But not before teaching my son to fly fish with it. It now has a place next to my desk in my office along with the old remains of the old bamboo rod and my fathers willow creel. I was just curious about its value. — Regards, Ken Dry lines catch no fish! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken- Value, as in could you turn around and sell it for a Whoop of cash? NO… ..but it’s still a plenty useful fishing tool.  I’d recommend taking it to the gas station and blowing air through it to remove all the dust, giving it a good wipe down and lube job and checking all the screws to make sure they’re tight.. cuz they’re getting tough to replace.  You may want to consider removing the screws and applying a drop of LocTite to them (or head cement) and then threading them back in place. I still have 6 old Pflugers and use them quite a bit….they tend to be rather heavy on the newer graphite rods and are tough to "balance" to an outfit, but it depends on the type (and volume!) of fishing you’re doing if this will pose a "reel" problem   =8^)) Larry #:)#

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I have an old Pfluger fly real that was passed to me when I was kid (back in the ice age). It is the essence of simplicity and made mostly of brass. Small in size. It was mounted on an old cheap (as in originally didn’t cost much) split bamboo three piece rod. No label, guides or tip survived the ravages of storage in my parents basement. Question is, does the real have any value other then the obvious sentimental value? — Regards, Ken Dry lines catch no fish!

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life : than hunters or meat eaters. : : This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being : killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced : there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… : it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity : of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals : (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. : As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals : are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat. What makes you so sure that "most of those animals are fed on GRASS" ?   What evidence do you have to support this? Now we await the long silence….. seetoh

In California one of our largest crops is rice and the biproduct of rice production consists of millions of mosquito fish and crawdads flushed out of the fields before harvest. Most of these die in the drainage ditches. Since most of the veggies eat rice just think how many animal lives they are responsible for. Harvesting other grains destroys bird nests and draining wetlands to grow these benign grains have destroyed the waterfowl flocks that use to blacken our skies with their flights (do you think that might have been another form of air polution  )   I wish they would enjoy their veggies and leave more good wholesome meat for the rest of us dewayne

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Is "dying from lack of meat" the technical definition of "Bob’s" condition; i don’t have a strong medical background.                                         -curious

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Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! I would like to take this time to point out the double-standards by which vegetarians live by. [rest deleted]

Well… It *is* the truth, isn’t it ? TimW

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Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts!

Hmm, using my wonderous (almost if I could get it to work properly) new bit of software at home, I can browse the newsgroups whilst also being able to see the newsgroups list. The concept of people on ‘talk.politic.tibet’, ‘rec.animals.wildlife’, ‘rec.backcountry’ etc being ‘fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts’ just doesn’t really ring true. I think the best thing is to assume it is a troll and <snip — David Arno

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As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life than hunters or meat eaters.

This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. In addition, the animal you kill and eat has used that excess plant matter to create urine, fecal matter, methane, etc… which causes gross pollution in many parts of this country. I have exposed the double standards and hypocrisy by which vegetarians live, and I hope they stop the high and mighty banter, and the self righteous behaviour they impose on everyone else who chooses to eat meat. All I ask in return is an apology from AR’s (animal rights people) to hunters and meat eaters.  It is as simple as that.——Muskie

If animals had a voice, they would demand an apology from YOU.

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Is "dying from lack of meat" the technical definition of "Bob’s" condition; i don’t have a strong medical background.                                    -curious

Sounds kind of funny to me, maybe that doctor should face a review board, sounds like s/he doesn’t know what s/he is talking about.  If it were protein deficiency, that’s one thing, but "dying from lack of meat"….sounds like a diagnosis a 3-year old hamburger lover would make. Cynthia S. Smith http://www.sn.no/~csmith http://www.ifi.uio.no/~cynthias

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= =   As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life =   than hunters or meat eaters. = =   This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being =   killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced =   there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… =   it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity =   of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals =   (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. In addition, the =   animal you kill and eat has used that excess plant matter to create =   urine, fecal matter, methane, etc… which causes gross pollution in =   many parts of this country. Hmmm…what if you raise the meat animals on permanent pasture (i.e. rarely if ever plowed)? —

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! I would like to take this time to point out the double-standards by which vegetarians live by. I feel it is my duty to open the eyes of the hypocrites, once and for all. Alot of vegetarians eat that way because they dont believe in killing animals. Well, guess what? You vegetarians kill many animals by eating corn, beans, turnips and other such vegetables.  When old macdonald is out in his field in planting or harvesting season, he is running over many mice, bird eggs, salamanders, and you name it with his plow and tractor. Ever seen how fast a baby rabbit is when it is two weeks old? Not very. It is also not very likely that a nest of young bunnys could survive a run in with a plow or tractor wheel.   Grouse eggs, plus baby grouse dont stand a chance in the farmers WHEAT fields  when its pickin’ time.  Weasels, baby skunks, baby woodchucks, baby geese, baby oppusom, tucked in their little burrows into the soft dirt of the farmers field dont have a chance in planting or plowing season. Every time you take a bite of that corn, and think to yourself, " Im glad im a vegetarian, I dont kill animals like those stupid hunters do " , you contribute to at least a few senseless animal deaths. For every 200 acre farmers field, think of all the animals that are killed or mamed by the plow or harvester!   ( the rest deleted)

200 acres?  Not far from here they measure their fields by the section (640 acres)!  And don’t forget all the animals that are no longer with us because of loss of habitat to the plow.

Response:

As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life than hunters or meat eaters. This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian.

As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat.  Rangeland contains a wide variety of animal life, none of which are killed to make room for the growth of human foodstuff (in this case, cattle).  So while it may take 10 times as much grass to make a pound of meat, feeding the grass to the cattle certainly does no harm to the surrounding animals. In addition, the animal you kill and eat has used that excess plant matter to create urine, fecal matter, methane, etc… which causes gross pollution in many parts of this country.

More so than was caused by the vast herds of bison and pronghorns in the past? Jessica and the zoo: Kosh (dog), Liza (horse), Nikki, Pixel, and Voodoo (Demon Cats from Hell), Flick (snake) and oh yeah, Keith (husband), who puts up with us all.   "Frogs are generally considered a pretty non-violent species. Unless, of course, you’re a fly".  -Kermit

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[brutally slaughtered text was here] As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat.  

Except in brownies. And I think the original poster has that down just pat. 8^) TimW

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<Hundreds of lines of crap deleted Excellent!  Muskie, meet Dr Jai.  Dr Jai, meet Muskie.  Why don’t the two of you bugger off to alt.fan.jai-maharaj and have a cosy chat? — I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did.  I said I didn’t know.                                                 Mark Twain.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Doug Arendt) writes: = =   As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life =   than hunters or meat eaters. = =   This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being =   killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced =   there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… =   it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity =   of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals =   (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. In addition, the =   animal you kill and eat has used that excess plant matter to create =   urine, fecal matter, methane, etc… which causes gross pollution in =   many parts of this country. Hmmm…what if you raise the meat animals on permanent pasture (i.e. rarely if ever plowed)? And the previous poster is ignoring that all those ‘pollutants’, urine, fecal matter, etc. are actually the main ingredients in organic fertilizer.  Guess they don’t eat organic produce, huh….. Besides, the WORST pollutant of our water ways is run-off from urban and suburban lawns. Sue — ======= Mike Mayer                     (414) 751-3557     Work: Technology Group, Inc. Neenah, WI                 Home:

In the west a real factor is the amount of water it takes to grow a pound of steak. Alfalfa and hay need LOTS of water. It is tremendously inefficient to grow our protein on the hoof.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! I would like to take this time to point out the double-standards by which vegetarians live by. I feel it is my duty to open the eyes text deleted hare krishna, actually i agree with a lot of this post. IF YOU ARE NOT SELF-SUFFICIENT YOU ARE NOT A VEGETARIAN. that’s why i’m learning everything i can about self-sufficiency and sustainable, cruelty-free, organic agriculture. but i must say that the below text is a load of garbage. i’m a hare krishna devotee (please refrain from the cult jokes). i live on a krishna farm community and teach at our elementary school. all the children here have been strict vegetarians since birth. visitors are always commenting on how radiantly healthy they look. some of the older kids who go to public high school are star athletes of every sport. none have EVER eaten meat. bhaktin casey  TO MEAT OR NOT TO MEAT?  ( REVISED EDITION 8/10/96) In a recent study, a 35 year old male, strict vegetarian of 12 years, went for a checkup at his doctors office.  Thinking he was perfectly fit, the man proceeded out the office right after the checkup. The doctor chased him down the hall, and grabbed him aside then he said, " Im sorry Bob, you have 2 months to live".  Bob had NOT eaten meat since he was 23, and the results were that his heart was dying due to lack of meat. The doctor said he needed meat at least occasionaly, to live. Unfortunately, the problem could not be corrected, it was too late for Bob. he died on 8/21/96. This sad episode COULD have been prevented.  In another related study,  Woman who are pregnant that were vegetarians averaged    babies with a much lower weight than meat-eating pregnant mothers. 50% of the babies of strict vegetarians were considered "weak" and "having birth weights of dangerously low levels". This is sad news, but true. You see people, we need meat to build our strong hearts, and strong muscles. These "weak" babies didnt get a chance to choose if they wanted to be vegetarians, their bodies were forced only veggies by the unsensitive mothers, who, in a way, were already forcing their beliefs on their un-born child. This doesnt need to be the case. Or how about when your child is 16 years old, and is 4 foot 9, with bad bones and bad vision? what do you do when that child asks you , "mommy, why did you take the life away from me? why didnt you feed me the necessary nutrients that meat provides when I was in your womb?" These sad cases are all too often. Meat builds champions, and warriors. We need meat to fight our wars, and to be victorious. We need the feeling of bringing home the meat to our family. A feeling that cant be taken for granted. Come on people, cows are no better than mosquitos. If your a vegetarian, and bugs hit your windshield, and it doesnt bother you, why does it bother you when an old cow gets a bolt through the head? What is the difference? The folks that started our very existence, ate meat and loved it. If it were not for their great meat-eating abilities, we all would not be here. So I ask you to rally your support for our GREAT fishermen and hunters. these caring and bright people continue fine traditions that are responsible for your being here. That great Sportsmen, the breath of fresh air in a smoggy world, is the master of his domain, a true "king" if you will, of his senses and surroundings. Fishing and Hunting are the bright positives in a negative world. And there is nothing like enjoying a big barbeque before a good hunt or fishing outing.  Ribs, chicken wings, drumsticks, meatballs, fish fillets(trout are best served whole), steaks, eggs, chicken breasts, veil, lamb cutlet dripping with grease, juicy, flavourful bratwurst, and best of all, a nice side of ham with some spicey mustard.  these sorts of foods provide oneself with power, nutrition, and the ability to prosper in adverse enviornments. So, I ask you again, support the great fishermen and hunters. Give them a pat on the back when   you see one , and tell him/her, "thanks, thanks for all youve done. Thank you for allowing me the gift of true life. I am forever thankful." Lets not have anymore weak babies and sad stories like the one above. Start supporting meat and our great sportspersons. For these individuals know the essence of life. If you take the time to really know a sportsperson, you might change your life, for the better.——Muskie

    —— Hmmmmmmmmm?—— Nice disertation but you’re boy Bob is the exception, not the rule. Americans have TOO MUCH MEAT in their diet and their Cholesterol Levels and Fat levels are beyond reason.  FAT INTAKE should not exceed 5% of the total calories and Cholesterol should be as close to zero as possible. George Gehrke

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Who cares this is a fishing forum….let’s talk FISHING…. (pass the salt and pepper pleaz, while eatting prime rib!)   Em*  

Response:

[snip] BACK UP HERE and consider this.  "ALL life comes from the sun".  You figure out for yourself the evidence that plant material sustains flesh.  At least, I hope you do not lack ‘logic’. George Gehrke/Mr. Gink Now then, can we all start talking about fly fishing please?

I hate to be a nit picking buttinsky but using words like "all" and "always" in a statement usually gets you in trouble.  This is no exception.  There have relatively recently been discovered ecosystems that are completely independent of the sun’s energy.  I’m referring to deep sea sulfur vents which exist in total darkness and sulfur reducing bacteria are the primary producers. Regarding cattle etc. being fed grass.  If the doubter ( I’ve lost track of who’s who on this thread) would like to come to Kansas, I’ll show them the largest remaining tract of tallgrass prairie ( and some of the most beautiful scenery in the world ) with all kinds of cattle happily munching the grass and making steak. — Brent L. Brock Kansas State University Dept. Agronomy, Range Science

Response:

Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! I would like to take this time to point out the double-standards by which vegetarians live by. I feel it is my duty to open the eyes

text deleted hare krishna, actually i agree with a lot of this post. IF YOU ARE NOT SELF-SUFFICIENT YOU ARE NOT A VEGETARIAN. that’s why i’m learning everything i can about self-sufficiency and sustainable, cruelty-free, organic agriculture. but i must say that the below text is a load of garbage. i’m a hare krishna devotee (please refrain from the cult jokes). i live on a krishna farm community and teach at our elementary school. all the children here have been strict vegetarians since birth. visitors are always commenting on how radiantly healthy they look. some of the older kids who go to public high school are star athletes of every sport. none have EVER eaten meat. bhaktin casey – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  TO MEAT OR NOT TO MEAT?  ( REVISED EDITION 8/10/96) In a recent study, a 35 year old male, strict vegetarian of 12 years, went for a checkup at his doctors office.  Thinking he was perfectly fit, the man proceeded out the office right after the checkup. The doctor chased him down the hall, and grabbed him aside then he said, " Im sorry Bob, you have 2 months to live".  Bob had NOT eaten meat since he was 23, and the results were that his heart was dying due to lack of meat. The doctor said he needed meat at least occasionaly, to live. Unfortunately, the problem could not be corrected, it was too late for Bob. he died on 8/21/96. This sad episode COULD have been prevented.  In another related study,  Woman who are pregnant that were vegetarians averaged    babies with a much lower weight than meat-eating pregnant mothers. 50% of the babies of strict vegetarians were considered "weak" and "having birth weights of dangerously low levels". This is sad news, but true. You see people, we need meat to build our strong hearts, and strong muscles. These "weak" babies didnt get a chance to choose if they wanted to be vegetarians, their bodies were forced only veggies by the unsensitive mothers, who, in a way, were already forcing their beliefs on their un-born child. This doesnt need to be the case. Or how about when your child is 16 years old, and is 4 foot 9, with bad bones and bad vision? what do you do when that child asks you , "mommy, why did you take the life away from me? why didnt you feed me the necessary nutrients that meat provides when I was in your womb?" These sad cases are all too often. Meat builds champions, and warriors. We need meat to fight our wars, and to be victorious. We need the feeling of bringing home the meat to our family. A feeling that cant be taken for granted. Come on people, cows are no better than mosquitos. If your a vegetarian, and bugs hit your windshield, and it doesnt bother you, why does it bother you when an old cow gets a bolt through the head? What is the difference? The folks that started our very existence, ate meat and loved it. If it were not for their great meat-eating abilities, we all would not be here. So I ask you to rally your support for our GREAT fishermen and hunters. these caring and bright people continue fine traditions that are responsible for your being here. That great Sportsmen, the breath of fresh air in a smoggy world, is the master of his domain, a true "king" if you will, of his senses and surroundings. Fishing and Hunting are the bright positives in a negative world. And there is nothing like enjoying a big barbeque before a good hunt or fishing outing.  Ribs, chicken wings, drumsticks, meatballs, fish fillets(trout are best served whole), steaks, eggs, chicken breasts, veil, lamb cutlet dripping with grease, juicy, flavourful bratwurst, and best of all, a nice side of ham with some spicey mustard.  these sorts of foods provide oneself with power, nutrition, and the ability to prosper in adverse enviornments. So, I ask you again, support the great fishermen and hunters. Give them a pat on the back when   you see one , and tell him/her, "thanks, thanks for all youve done. Thank you for allowing me the gift of true life. I am forever thankful." Lets not have anymore weak babies and sad stories like the one above. Start supporting meat and our great sportspersons. For these individuals know the essence of life. If you take the time to really know a sportsperson, you might change your life, for the better.——Muskie

Response:

| Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! [chomp] |  TO MEAT OR NOT TO MEAT?  ( REVISED EDITION 8/10/96) | [..] | to live".  Bob had NOT eaten meat since he was 23, and the results | were that his heart was dying due to lack of meat. The doctor Riiiiight! Heard of Craig Shergold?

Response:

[...] : : As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals : : are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat. : What makes you so sure that "most of those animals are fed on : GRASS" ?   What evidence do you have to support this? : Now we await the long silence…..         Would that we had had to endure YOURS.  Be that as it may, however,         it’s clear that you have never been to a cattle-raising country         in which you actually engaged in observation.  The fact is that         most beef cattle are raised by grazing and, in the U. S. anyway,         only spend the last few weeks of life in a feedlot.  It is my         understanding that many other beef-producing countries dispense         with the feedlot and bring the animals to market directly from         the range (which is why their beef tends to be somewhat less         tender and somewhat more strongly flavored than the rather bland         stuff we’re used to in the U. S.).         How much time does the average beef cow spend in the feedlots,         Seetoh?         [With any luck, we'll now endure a long silence...] — – Rich Young (E-mail will be posted publicly as I see fit.  You have been warned.)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life : than hunters or meat eaters. : : This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being : killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced : there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… : it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity : of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals : (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. : As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals : are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat. What makes you so sure that "most of those animals are fed on GRASS" ?   What evidence do you have to support this? Now we await the long silence….. seetoh

BACK UP HERE and consider this.  "ALL life comes from the sun".  You figure out for yourself the evidence that plant material sustains flesh.  At least, I hope you do not lack ‘logic’. George Gehrke/Mr. Gink Now then, can we all start talking about fly fishing please?

Response:

: : As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life : than hunters or meat eaters. : : This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being : killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced : there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… : it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity : of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals : (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. : As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals : are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat. What makes you so sure that "most of those animals are fed on GRASS" ?   What evidence do you have to support this? Now we await the long silence….. seetoh

Response:

Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! I would like to take this time to point out the double-standards by which vegetarians live by. I feel it is my duty to open the eyes of the hypocrites, once and for all. Alot of vegetarians eat that way because they dont believe in killing animals. Well, guess what? You vegetarians kill many animals by eating corn, beans, turnips and other such vegetables.  When old macdonald is out in his field in planting or harvesting season, he is running over many mice, bird eggs, salamanders, and you name it with his plow and tractor. Ever seen how fast a baby rabbit is when it is two weeks old? Not very. It is also not very likely that a nest of young bunnys could survive a run in with a plow or tractor wheel.   Grouse eggs, plus baby grouse dont stand a chance in the farmers WHEAT fields  when its pickin’ time.  Weasels, baby skunks, baby woodchucks, baby geese, baby oppusom, tucked in their little burrows into the soft dirt of the farmers field dont have a chance in planting or plowing season. Every time you take a bite of that corn, and think to yourself, " Im glad im a vegetarian, I dont kill animals like those stupid hunters do " , you contribute to at least a few senseless animal deaths. For every 200 acre farmers field, think of all the animals that are killed or mamed by the plow or harvester! Animals dont know any better to nest and live somewhere else. They see a nice field to nest up in, not knowing the horrors that lie ahead. Think of all the shrews, all the insects, and all the animal life that is destroyed when old macdonald plants and harvests. It is overwelming. Now, I have seen many farms and met many farmers, and I havent seen ONE farmer without a shotgun, or a gun that he hunts birds and animals with. I have seen many farms that use barb wire fences to keep out deer so they dont eat the vegetable products growing on the farm. If you look at some of those fences, you can see deer hair and   skin stuck to the barbs, and sometimes deer will get stuck in those fences and ultimatley die a slow and horrible death, all twisted and mangled with broken necks. And, most farmers have 22’s they use to pot-shoot groundchucks and groundhogs, to keep them from eating the vegetable products they are growing. Not a pretty picture I am painting here is it veggies?  rabbits are always a nusiance on farms, and hence, many farmers utilize cats and dogs to comb the fields, hoping these pets will keep the rabbit population down. A farmers field yeilding vegetable products is not a animal friendly place as you can see! But wait, theres more!   Many farmers growing vegetable product also use pesticides. These pesticides either annoy or kill tens of thousands of different insect animal life. Not only do the pesticides used kill insect life, when the rains come down, these pestecides wash off into farm creeks, ponds, and lakes. Ever seen a river next to some large corn or lettuce farms? The fish life is pathetic at best. catfish with tumors, and where bass used to live, suckers take over because the runoff has killed the oxygen levels, making it almost impossible for fish to survive. So, even eating corn kills fish!  Pesticide runoff is a common problem where farmers grow vegetable product. It causes the death of thousands of fish, and virtually destroys these freshwater ecosystems, killing turtles, ducks, kingfishers, herons, cranes, mink, otter, racoon, muskrat and so on. I think your getting the picture. How does that guilt-free salad taste now?   and think of the cows, deer, fox, coyote,and other large game that drink form these pesticide creeks and lakes! All so you can have your guilt-free vegetarian life style! How about them veggies! As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life than hunters or meat eaters. I have exposed the double standards and hypocrisy by which vegetarians live, and I hope they stop the high and mighty banter, and the self righteous behaviour they impose on everyone else who chooses to eat meat. All I ask in return is an apology from AR’s (animal rights people) to hunters and meat eaters.  It is as simple as that.——Muskie  TO MEAT OR NOT TO MEAT?  ( REVISED EDITION 8/10/96) In a recent study, a 35 year old male, strict vegetarian of 12 years, went for a checkup at his doctors office.  Thinking he was perfectly fit, the man proceeded out the office right after the checkup. The doctor chased him down the hall, and grabbed him aside then he said, " Im sorry Bob, you have 2 months to live".  Bob had NOT eaten meat since he was 23, and the results were that his heart was dying due to lack of meat. The doctor said he needed meat at least occasionaly, to live. Unfortunately, the problem could not be corrected, it was too late for Bob. he died on 8/21/96. This sad episode COULD have been prevented.  In another related study,  Woman who are pregnant that were vegetarians averaged    babies with a much lower weight than meat-eating pregnant mothers. 50% of the babies of strict vegetarians were considered "weak" and "having birth weights of dangerously low levels". This is sad news, but true. You see people, we need meat to build our strong hearts, and strong muscles. These "weak" babies didnt get a chance to choose if they wanted to be vegetarians, their bodies were forced only veggies by the unsensitive mothers, who, in a way, were already forcing their beliefs on their un-born child. This doesnt need to be the case. Or how about when your child is 16 years old, and is 4 foot 9, with bad bones and bad vision? what do you do when that child asks you , "mommy, why did you take the life away from me? why didnt you feed me the necessary nutrients that meat provides when I was in your womb?" These sad cases are all too often. Meat builds champions, and warriors. We need meat to fight our wars, and to be victorious. We need the feeling of bringing home the meat to our family. A feeling that cant be taken for granted. Come on people, cows are no better than mosquitos. If your a vegetarian, and bugs hit your windshield, and it doesnt bother you, why does it bother you when an old cow gets a bolt through the head? What is the difference? The folks that started our very existence, ate meat and loved it. If it were not for their great meat-eating abilities, we all would not be here. So I ask you to rally your support for our GREAT fishermen and hunters. these caring and bright people continue fine traditions that are responsible for your being here. That great Sportsmen, the breath of fresh air in a smoggy world, is the master of his domain, a true "king" if you will, of his senses and surroundings. Fishing and Hunting are the bright positives in a negative world. And there is nothing like enjoying a big barbeque before a good hunt or fishing outing.  Ribs, chicken wings, drumsticks, meatballs, fish fillets(trout are best served whole), steaks, eggs, chicken breasts, veil, lamb cutlet dripping with grease, juicy, flavourful bratwurst, and best of all, a nice side of ham with some spicey mustard.  these sorts of foods provide oneself with power, nutrition, and the ability to prosper in adverse enviornments. So, I ask you again, support the great fishermen and hunters. Give them a pat on the back when   you see one , and tell him/her, "thanks, thanks for all youve done. Thank you for allowing me the gift of true life. I am forever thankful." Lets not have anymore weak babies and sad stories like the one above. Start supporting meat and our great sportspersons. For these individuals know the essence of life. If you take the time to really know a sportsperson, you might change your life, for the better.——Muskie

Response:

: As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals : are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat.  Rangeland contains a wide : variety of animal life, none of which are killed to make room for : the growth of human foodstuff (in this case, cattle).  So while it : may take 10 times as much grass to make a pound of meat, feeding : the grass to the cattle certainly does no harm to the surrounding : animals. You are of course referring to buffaloes and wolves when you talk about animals not being killed to make room for cattle.  Then, there are the slash and burn tactics of Brazilian ranchers.  No animals being killed there, eh.  And let us not forget polluted water sources because of animal waste.  Since we are discussing animals, I won’t even go into how many people die early because of the garbage that is passed off on them as meat.                                  -Tom

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Don’t forget all the pollution created when shipping those yummy veggies cross country. todd — "I envy not him that eats better meat than I do, nor him that is richer or wears better clothes than I do. I envy nobody but him, and him only, that catches more fish than I do." Izaak Walton

Response:

200 acres?  Not far from here they measure their fields by the section (640 acres)!  And don’t forget all the animals that are no longer with us because of loss of habitat to the plow.

Not to mention all the corn and wheat that died so that we could live.  Don’t discount them;  they’re a sight more alive than rocks and minerals, after all.   Just think;  if redwood trees were a culinary treat,  them environmentalists and vegetarians would have a whole new battle to fight. Not that I distance myself from those particular causes;  I’m simply posing as the polemic. Cheers, Jen

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Question:

: What are the pros and cons of the expensive fly lines vs. the lower end : lines.  For example the Cortland 444 lazer vs the 333 lines.  Thanks   There are differences when you compare these two lines. The Cortland 444 is the industry standard fly line. It is offered in many more types and configurations than the 333. The 333 is the predecessor to the 444. The 444 is more supple, longer lasting, and slick than the 333. It also comes with a one year warrenty against failure. My experience with Cortland is that any 444 line returned will be replaced for free. This happened one year at the shop where we had many customers come back with defective lines. We had instructions from Cortland to take back all lines at that time. Their testing showed that they had a bad batch!   There is also a higher performance level with the more expensive lines. I find that they float higher and are easier to cast. The best line Cortland currently has is the 444 LazerLine. It has a textered finish. This line is the most supple, easiest mending, and farthest shooting line of any "general purpose" trout line I have used. Both 333 and 444 are good lines Jon Porter

Response:

What are the pros and cons of the expensive fly lines vs. the lower end lines.  For example the Cortland 444 lazer vs the 333 lines.  Thanks

In my opinion there aren’t many differences between lines that make a huge difference.  Higher priced lines are usually made from better materials(tougher, stronger, self lubricating, Uv resistant, etc.) but the taper really isn’t a measure of "quality".  It all depends on your casting style and requirements.  Some line may better match your technique and give better results (i.e. some people may perfere the same line in double taper vs. weight forward or vice versa).  Your fishing requirements (if they are very specific)  may demand that you must spend the extra money for a higher   end line but that is sometimes the nature of the beast!  Good luck,                         Joshua Haddock

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Question:

Every lake and water system down there has fish in it.  It dont take a genius to catch them.  Catch a grasshopper in the grass and throw it out into the water and watch the fish take it under.  If nothing hits it, move on.

Response:

I am going to be in Lafayette, LA  april 13-16 and would like to try flyfishing for bluegil (brim).  I am a rank amateur. Anybody have any suggestions on where I should try? thanks Mike in MI

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