Question:

I snuck out of the room a bit before 4am today, 400 miles and 6 hours later I was home, and now am at work. I don’t have time to write a report now, but will do so soon. We all had a great time and lot’s of nice fish to go around…it was real cool to meet all the people who showed up. More will follow, JonCook. — Are you a r.o.f.f. newbie? Then see http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~jcook/ROFF/

Response:

Sometimes life just aint fair. They get to fish and miss muskie’s posts as well.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I snuck out of the room a bit before 4am today, 400 miles and 6 hours later I was home, and now am at work. I don’t have time to write a report now, but will do so soon. We all had a great time and lot’s of nice fish to go around…it was real cool to meet all the people who showed up. More will follow, JonCook. — Are you a r.o.f.f. newbie? Then see http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~jcook/ROFF/

Response:

….More will follow…..

Aw, come on Jon, the suspense is killing us!  Who won? Wolfgang with finger poised over the 911 speed dial button

Response:

Aw, come on Jon, the suspense is killing us!  Who won? Wolfgang with finger poised over the 911 speed dial button

Forty…I know its Forty.  Now, who am I supposed to collect that dozen flys from? — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine!

Response:

Aw, come on Jon, the suspense is killing us!  Who won? Wolfgang with finger poised over the 911 speed dial button Forty…I know its Forty.  Now, who am I supposed to collect that dozen flys from?

If they actually got into it, I suspect the real winner had the iodine and BandAid concession.  My guess it never came to anything, so it’d be who ever had closest to "415" in the "How many times will each one say ‘no, you first’ before _everyone_ falls asleep" pool. TC, R

Response:

I wish I had time to recount the activities in question, but I’m late….. Danl (the white rabbit) PS Lots of nice fish, great company, and a great job by Bruce Hopper on the organizational side. Y’all shoudda been dere!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ….More will follow….. Aw, come on Jon, the suspense is killing us!  Who won? Wolfgang with finger poised over the 911 speed dial button

Response:

I wish I had time to recount the activities in question, but I’m late….. Danl (the white rabbit)

thought…..wonder if we should call the arlo…….    :( Wolfgang

Response:

: More will follow, Sorry, still busy, I thought I might have time today, but hopefully tomorrow morning…as for what this thread morphed into, I will not address that ’cause clave reports ought to be about the positives, not some imaginary negatives that people are playing up… JonCook.

Response:

: More will follow, Sorry, still busy, I thought I might have time today, but hopefully tomorrow morning…as for what this thread morphed into, I will not address that ’cause clave reports ought to be about the positives, not some imaginary negatives that people are playing up…

Curses, abashed again!    :) Wolfgang comfortable in the assumption that the blood letting was restricted to cold blooded species

Response:

: More will follow, Sorry, still busy, I thought I might have time today, but hopefully tomorrow morning…as for what this thread morphed into, I will not address that ’cause clave reports ought to be about the positives, not some imaginary negatives that people are playing up… JonCook.

        wtf, jon, are you *really* the incarnate soul of tinker bell?         just curious.  my kids might want a couple autographed photos. wayno

Response:

: More will follow, Sorry, still busy, I thought I might have time today, but hopefully tomorrow morning…as for what this thread morphed into, I will not address that ’cause clave reports ought to be about the positives, not some imaginary negatives that people are playing up… Curses, abashed again!    :) Wolfgang comfortable in the assumption that the blood letting was restricted to cold blooded species

Well, we’ve heard from Forty… /daytripper (rw? hallooooooo rw?)

Response:

Well since there were four of us that made predictions (myself, Petah, Tripper and Wayne) I’ll ante up 1/3 the flies. Wayne, email me your address and I’ll tie some for you. Petah, Tripper, We fucked up we trusted Louie. Louie, tell us you at least got wet. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aw, come on Jon, the suspense is killing us!  Who won? Wolfgang with finger poised over the 911 speed dial button Forty…I know its Forty.  Now, who am I supposed to collect that dozen flys from? — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine!

Response:

Jon, You got back a little before I did and beat me to it.  Now are you going to say just who was it that: 1.  Had horrible plane connections coming and going because of the mid-western (read Chicago) weather? 2.  Whose luggage was lost; at least overnight? 3.  Whose commode got stopped up? 4.  Who fell in the river and got completely wet? 5.  Who buried a hook in their hand?  Yes, it was a #24 6.  Whose beer still had active yeast in it? days. 8.  What the average daily temperature was? 9.  Whose looking forward to the next Clave? 10.  Who despite the somtimes contentiousness of this august (when we really should have been fishing) group is really looking forward to the next Clave? Need I go on? Bob in El Paso – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I snuck out of the room a bit before 4am today, 400 miles and 6 hours later I was home, and now am at work. I don’t have time to write a report now, but will do so soon. We all had a great time and lot’s of nice fish to go around…it was real cool to meet all the people who showed up. More will follow, JonCook. — Are you a r.o.f.f. newbie? Then see http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~jcook/ROFF/

Response:

10.  Who despite the somtimes contentiousness of this august (when we really should have been fishing) group is really looking forward to the next Clave?

A ha! So there *was* a fight!! –Steve

Response:

10.  Who despite the somtimes contentiousness of this august (when we really should have been fishing) group is really looking forward to the next Clave? A ha! So there *was* a fight!! –Steve

Yeah, but wuz there any sissy boys sighted? Frank (muy bueno tutu senior!) Church —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Frank (muy bueno tutu senior!) Church

my beans wear frilly little dresses old man? Joe (monolingual) F.

Response:

Me too Joe, I tried to say "very pretty tutu senior" but I’m lacking a way to put that little ~ in there.  I should stick to pig latin I guess. Frank (knoi knoi) Church Frank (muy bueno tutu senior!) Church my beans wear frilly little dresses old man? Joe (monolingual) F.

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Sunday morning Willi, Danl, and I piled into Danl’s rent-a-car and drove up to the Texas Hole parking lot, where everybody agreed to start that day. Willi announced he was going to fish dries all day (though allowing for an emerger dropper), and brought only the beautiful Zimmerman "Troutmaster" rod to fish with. When we got out and started setting up, Willi couldn’t find his sunglasses, so he drove back to get them. Danl and I made our way to the river, set up and started fishing. 20 minutes pass and neither of us has had a hit, even though you could see some fish feeding. About then Willi steps out of the brush, walks into the river, and says, "Hey there, how’s it goin — Oh, got one!". No kidding, Willi is the Troutmaster. Willi did fall prey to the sunglasses thief that morning, and had to buy new ones. I fell prey the next morning, but had a backup pair. Willi and Danl headed down while I stayed on trying to catch the fish working in front of me, quite unsuccessfully I might add. Oh I caught a couple of smaller ones (13" or so), but the larger ones refused my offerings. One lesson I learned is that I don’t give up as soon as I should. There are so many fish up there that if you’re on some that are refusing everything, you might as well move. I finally moved downstream and met Danl and Ken coming back up to break for lunch. Ken had just taken a nice fish in a backwater, and Danl had taken one earlier with Willi. I passed them and caught a couple more small ones when Willi saw me he called out "Come down here, I found some big fish rising". I went down and sure enough right there were some nice fish rising fairly often. I think I had a foam wing emerger on, and on my first cast one of them took it, but it wasn’t a good hookup and I lost him. I kept fishing for that group, but they’d inspect my fly and refuse it every time. I finally concluded that Willi had already caught all those, because when I first walked up he said he had taken a half dozen nice fish from there (or was it a dozen?). He was below me during this and regularly hooking some smaller fish, and I was doing the same but about 1/2 as often (up to about 14"). He finally hooked a nice one and I was going to get a picture of the Zimmerman rod in fighting position, but he lost it before I could get the camera out. I’m sure he caught more nice ones but after that I didn’t try to get pictures. I must be skipping some part of Sunday, because I did land a couple of nice ones somewhere — I remember because one had a length of leader coming out of its butt. Yes, the fish do pay a price for our fun… The big lesson I learned Sunday (other than moving more often) was that yes, size does matter (for non-Troutmasters). Charlie’s jokes about #62 parameciums are spot on, and that night I bought a pack of #24’s for the evening’s tying session… JonCook.

Response:

I can guess at a few of these 1.  Had horrible plane connections coming and going because of the mid-western (read Chicago) weather?

KEN 5.  Who buried a hook in their hand?  Yes, it was a #24

BOB S, and i’m blaming his big fish, which was in my net 6.  Whose beer still had active yeast in it?

CHARLIE

TAKE YOUR PICK 8.  What the average daily temperature was?

ZERO 9.  Whose looking forward to the next Clave? 10.  Who despite the somtimes contentiousness of this august (when we

YES AND YES was great Bob, see you in the Jemez. bruce h — bare your soul let your spirit burn out along the road to no return – r.e. keen

Response:

Well, we’ve heard from Forty… /daytripper (rw? hallooooooo rw?)

I’m somewhat disappointed to report that Fortenberry didn’t talk to me at the San Juan Clave in the same style that he uses in ROFF while sitting in front of his computer at home drinking Laphroig, or however the hell you spell it. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jon, You got back a little before I did and beat me to it.  Now are you going to say just who was it that: 1.  Had horrible plane connections coming and going because of the mid-western (read Chicago) weather? 2.  Whose luggage was lost; at least overnight? 3.  Whose commode got stopped up? 4.  Who fell in the river and got completely wet? 5.  Who buried a hook in their hand?  Yes, it was a #24 6.  Whose beer still had active yeast in it? days. 8.  What the average daily temperature was? 9.  Whose looking forward to the next Clave? 10.  Who despite the somtimes contentiousness of this august (when we really should have been fishing) group is really looking forward to the next Clave? Need I go on?

Who lost his net, his lead, and some other damn thing (gloves?). BTW, LaPlac, I have a good photo of you fishing the Kiddie Pool. Just wait. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I’m somewhat disappointed to report that Fortenberry didn’t talk to me at the San Juan Clave in the same style that he uses in ROFF while sitting in front of his computer at home drinking Laphroig, or however the hell you spell it.

Wow, who would have ever figured that one out . . . . — Warren

Response:

Someone sent me an email, I believe under this thread’s subject, and I accidentally deleted it before reading it while I was throwing out the morning spam. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

rw,    Ken may be an asshole but he isn’t stupid.  I,am glad you two didn’t tangle and spoil the Clave fellowship.  I would think you had enough excitement with all the good fishing and meeting new ROFFian’s.  Count your blessings. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m somewhat disappointed to report that Fortenberry didn’t talk to me at the San Juan Clave in the same style that he uses in ROFF while sitting in front of his computer at home drinking Laphroig, or however the hell you spell it.

Response:

Zimbo dreaming writes: A ha! So there *was* a fight!!

Yeah!  I kicked Fortenberry’s ass!  I enjoy it by closing my eyes and thinking Louie, alive and well in Yankeeville…..

Response:

Still having that little identification problem, eh?  Perhaps a google search on "poor people"? Hey that helped clear it up, thanks. http://www.creativeworks.ch/musicians/pw2.htm

wow.  major zinger. In two years on the usenet, I cannot think of a single time I have been so deeply or so deftly cut.  You got a real gift there!  I had wondered whether you really came back because you weren’t getting enough opportunities to whine wherever else it is you hang out, but now I see that your real agenda was simply to unload some of your heavy munitions!  I find myself, somewhat paradoxically, both humbled and proud that you consider me worthy of such herculean efforts.  Might I be so bold as to suggest that a stunning career in satire awaits you, should you decide to pursue it?  Of course, careless readers might be left behind by the subtlety of cross born by every great artist.     Wolfgang tag, your it!

Response:

Wolfgang snivelled: In two years on the usenet, I cannot think of a single time I have been so deeply or so deftly cut.

You’ll get over it.  I’m glad you got a chance to talk to me again.  As always, a pleasure playing your little games, and as always, I tire of it.  But don’t feel sad – you’re a cunning linguist and a master baiter (*), so you have a halfway decent chance of goading me into another argument someday.  In the meantime, you and Ken will have to find something else to stroke each other over.  And do try to stop obsessing over me, ‘kay?  TTFN Schattenjaeger. (*) Could it have been you who emailed me the pointer to your own Nazi propaganda just for fun? Regards, Jeff

Response:

You’ll get over it.  I’m glad you got a chance to talk to me again.  As always, a pleasure playing your little games, and as always, I tire of it.  But don’t feel sad – you’re a cunning linguist and a master baiter (*), so you have a halfway decent chance of goading me into another argument someday.  In the meantime, you and Ken will have to find something else to stroke each other over.  And do try to stop obsessing over me, ‘kay?  TTFN Schattenjaeger.

You’re showing modest signs of improvement, Jeff –Steve

Response:

Wolfgang snivelled: In two years on the usenet, I cannot think of a single time I have been so deeply or so deftly cut.

Rats!  Saw right through my pathetic attempt at bravado.      :) ……do try to stop obsessing over me, ‘kay?

Yeah, I’ll try.  But it’s going to be tough! (*) Could it have been you who emailed me the pointer to your own Nazi propaganda just for fun?

Nah, secret communiqu

Question:

Putting all that together, I gather that I haven’t broken a rod while casting because I use a roll cast or retrieve enough of a wet line to avoid that overload on the lift, and I’m never over bending the rod while casting.  The fatal errors come in the heat of battle. The more I think about it, I see what you mean about casting being the heaviest force on the rod. Thanks for your help, Chas

Response:

The force generated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod.

If it’s done right the rod is already fully loaded and you are just accelerating the line and, more importantly, the tip of the line. — Charlie…

Response:

The force generated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod. If it’s done right the rod is already fully loaded and you are just accelerating the line and, more importantly, the tip of the line. — Charlie…

Charlie, Your analysis of hauling to increase line speed and thus increasing casting distance is correct.  If it was a matter of loading the rod as rw says the caster would only have to apply more power to accomplish this. Ernie

Response:

rw, If the haul is done correctly the rod is fully loaded and any additional speed must be imparted to the line by foreword movement of your arm and by pulling "hauling" the line through the guides. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to doubt that additional rod loading is minimal, Mike. The only way the caster can increase the speed of the line is by accelerating it. The only way he can accelerate it is by exerting a force on the line at the rod tip. (F=ma). An equal and opposite force is exerted on the rod at the tip, which results in loading the rod.

Response:

Charlie, Your analysis of hauling to increase line speed and thus increasing casting distance is correct.  If it was a matter of loading the rod as rw says the caster would only have to apply more power to accomplish this. Ernie

I’m not saying that the *point* of hauling is to load the rod. I’m saying only that one *effect* of hauling is additional loading of the rod. It has to have that effect — there’s no way around it. Hauling accelerates the line, which generates a force on the rod tip. (F=ma) Consider three cases: 1. After loading the rod on the forward cast (with no hauling), you accidently lose your grip on the line with your noncasting hand. The acceleration of the line vanishes, the force on the rod tip vanishes, the rod straightens without appreciably affecting the line, and the line falls on the water in a bloody mess. 2. You make a normal forward cast without hauling, just holding the line tight. A force is applied to the line by the rod tip, causing acceleration of the line. An equal and opposite force is applied to the rod top, causing loading of the rod. 3. You make a forward cast while hauling. The action of the noncasting hand, pulling on the line, causes an *additional* acceleration of the line. This additional acceleration causes an *additional* force on the rod tip, resulting in additional loading of the rod. If you ignore things like friction, you could replace the effect (on the rod) of hauling by a transient additional stress in the line, and the rod would have no way of "knowing" the difference. It would simply load more. (The line would behave very differently, though.) These three cases are really just points in a continuum. Whether you consider this additional rod loading to be significant is your business, but it’s nonetheless real. This is just elementary physics. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Whether you consider this additional rod loading to be significant is your business, but it’s nonetheless real. This is just elementary physics.

It also ignores the fact that the line is not attached to the tip of the rod and that the rod is very nearly, if not fully, loaded. There may be some additional loading, but what makes the haul work is the additional acceleration applied directly to the line. This is just elementary geometry<g. — Charlie…

Response:

http://www.mikeconnor.de You didn’t comment on my second reason.  Does this make sense to you?      A second reason that the loading is not the key is that you could achieve the same additional loading if you just applied a bit more casting force.  We know that a man of modest strength and a good haul can outcast a muscle man who doesn’t haul. Thanks Chas

This is also correct.    The amount of linespeed any particular rod may generate in a flyline by direct action is limited by various things, one of which is the strength and speed of the caster. ( assuming once again perfect technique). If you haul, you do not increase the loading, as you do not use direct rod action, but your line hand, and you do not require any more strength and speed to obtain similar results to someone who does not haul. However, a powerful person with good technique will always cast better ( assuming distance casting here of course), than a weaker person, simply because he has more power per se. TL MC

Response:

– "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If it were so that hauling dramatically increased rod loading, then hauling on an already optimally loaded rod would cause it to fold up. I’ve been mean to a few rods at times, putting a #10 line in a #8 rod and casting Pike flies for instance, but I’ve never managed to break one casting.  Is this because most of my fishing has been with Graphite or Glass? I have to dig back into some old Physics books to get the details, but I remember stress and strain curves for various materials showing a linear relationship until a limit was released, and then additional stress produced excessive strain until the material failed.  Certainly with an old shoe or a fish on the line and a stout leader it’s easy enough to pass the elastic limit, but does that happen in casting as well? Thanks Chas

If you ask most people at what point a rod is stressed the most, then many of them will tell you that it is in playing a fish.  This is not the case. The basic maximum stress condition for a rod, when used correctly, is when casting. Most modern rods can stand a great deal more stress in this respect than is generally realised.  What they can not stand is shock loading under stress. If you jerk a rod when it is already loaded with a "dead weight", either played out fish, old shoe etc etc then it is highly likely to break. Solid glass fibre rods were probably the most robust rods to date.  Carbon fibre suffers from one or two disadvantages here. Even a slight nick in the surface of a blank can cause sudden massive failure, sometimes the blank will simply shatter without warning. More rods are broken by various extraneous factors than by casting.  The failure might indeed occur when casting, but is usually the result of some other fault. Car doors, falling down on the rod, excessive heat, leaning a rod on a stone and nicking it, ramming the tip into a tree, etc etc. Constantly overloading a rod by casting full lines etc, which are way over the rated weight will usually cause a blank failure as well of course. Most rods broken while actually fishing, do so for a number of reasons, the main one directly fishing related, is getting snagged, putting a good bend in the rod, and then jerking it.  This will quite easily snap a carbon fibre blank, or shatter it . The sudden extreme shock loading under stress is more than the rod can handle. The second most common reason is trying to lift a long line, especially a sunken one, without first roll-casting the line to the surface. Attempting to do this will break most rods. The sudden massive loading is once again more than they can stand. The third most common reason is attempting to land a fish by holding the rod almost vertically, and allowing it to bend over ninety degrees from the vertical. The fish plunges, and the rod simply snaps at the tip. No major exertions are required here by the way, doing the same thing while threading a line through the rings  will also snap a rod tip quite easily. What often happens here, is that the rod is bent, and then the blank "rolls" suddenly changing the stress patterns in the blank walls, and causing it to break. Occasionally rods are broken when fighting very large fish, but this is again an error on the part of the angler. It should normally be impossible for a fish to break a rod, given sufficient angling skill, and correct tackle.. Holding a rod in the fingers and bending it, is also very dangerous. Especially with fine tips. Assuming a rod in good condition, no nicks etc. And also assuming correctly matched line, and reasonable casting, and correct use, then the likelihood of breaking a rod is actually very low indeed. TL MC

Response:

"Mike Connor" wrote This is not a matter of taking sides I hope. Otherwise I will simply retire from the discussion. This is a technical discussion and nothing more.

Of course, my sloppy wording betrayed me. Apart from that, you are perfectly correct. Although the rod loading generated by hauling is inconsequential, irrespective of the current loading state of the rod.  When the rod is already optimally loaded, and as you say at its stiffest, the added loading generated by hauling is so small as to be insignificant. This is just as well, as if hauling did in fact appreciably increase rod loading, then an already optimally loaded rod would simply fold up under the added strain.

You didn’t comment on my second reason.  Does this make sense to you?      A second reason that the loading is not the key is that you could achieve the same additional loading if you just applied a bit more casting force.  We know that a man of modest strength and a good haul can outcast a muscle man who doesn’t haul.

Thanks Chas

Response:

If it were so that hauling dramatically increased rod loading, then hauling on an already optimally loaded rod would cause it to fold up.

I’ve been mean to a few rods at times, putting a #10 line in a #8 rod and casting Pike flies for instance, but I’ve never managed to break one casting.  Is this because most of my fishing has been with Graphite or Glass? I have to dig back into some old Physics books to get the details, but I remember stress and strain curves for various materials showing a linear relationship until a limit was released, and then additional stress produced excessive strain until the material failed.  Certainly with an old shoe or a fish on the line and a stout leader it’s easy enough to pass the elastic limit, but does that happen in casting as well? Thanks Chas

Response:

When you haul you’re loading the rod by making it work harder against the inertia of the line. I don’t really think "shortening the line" is a good way to look at it. A haul takes in maybe two or three feet of line, and you have maybe 30 feet or more out. I agree with what you’re saying, but I can "cast" nearly thirty feet by using only my right arm as the rod (with fingers in O shape to act as the tiptop) and a lefthand haul. So there’s more to it than just the rod tip.

Your finger is playing the role of the rod tip in that case. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 6:33 AM This would be correct if the line was fixed at the rod tip. When hauling it is not. It moves more or less freely through the guides. The force applied is applied directly to the line, independent of the rod loading.  The "equal and opposite reaction" in this case, is immediate line acceleration due to a direct pull, and is independent of the rod. Some of this force( a relatively small amount actually ) does indeed go towards the total rod loading, but compared to the force which is transferred to the line, this may be more or less ignored. I’m afraid you’re missing the point, Mike. It’s really irrelevant whether the line is fixed or free to move through the guides. There is a force exerted on the line, by the rod tip, that accelerates the line. There is a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the rod tip. That force has the effect of bending the rod. The greater the force, the more the line is accelerated, and the more the rod is bent (i.e., loaded). None of this force can be "ignored". The force generated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod. The acceleration is induced by a direct pull on the line, and is only possible because the line is indeed able to move independent of the rod tip. The point is, that when you haul, the line moves, and the rod does not, or only slightly. Thread your rod up with a line. Lay the line out and point the rod straight down the line.  Grasp the line at the butt, and pull sharply. The rod has not been loaded in any way, but the line will spring towards you. The direct pull moves the mass directly. Do the same thing holding the rod at an angle to the line, The same thing occurs, with a relatively small proportion of the applied force bending the rod tip slightly, if at all. Progressively increase the angle until the rod is at right angles to the line. At this point the maximum possible rod loading, under these circumstances, will occur when you pull on the line, nevertheless, the majority of the energy involved still goes towards moving the line, the tip will barely move. It is quite immaterial how hard, how long, or how fast you pull. The energy is transferred directly to the line. The rod is barely affected. The angle of the rod changes the vector, and the rod loads a little, due to friction mainly, but the majority of the energy involved goes into moving the line. If it were so that hauling dramatically increased rod loading, then hauling on an already optimally loaded rod would cause it to fold up. This is not the case. The result of hauling is dramatically increased linespeed, because of the direct application of force to the line.  You dont have to believe me, just try it. This is also incidentally why striking a fish with a pull on the line is better than doing it with the rod. The force applied is transferred more or less directly, with very little loss, to the hook point. The rod does not move much,  and  is not loaded appreciably. Only the line moves. If you strike with the rod, you must first load it, before you can apply any force at all, and because of the mechanical disadvantage involved, the force you transfer will be minimal, and indirect. The principles are the same in both cases. In one case you are transferring energy to accelerate a mass using the short end of a flexible lever, and in the other case you are doing it by giving a direct pull.  The lever is in the second case quite immaterial, and may be ignored. TL MC Again, there’s no "direct" pull on the line. ALL the force affecting the airborne line is generated at the rod tip. If you lay  a piece of string along a table top, and pull one end, depending on the force and speed with which you pull, you can accelerate the string quite easily, giving it very considerable momentum. The string accelerates immediately, simply as a result of the pull. No rods etc are involved. The only force involved is the direct pull. Sure, but that’s not what’s happening when the line is strung though a rod. You (the caster) can exert a force on the line in your left (hauling) hand, but the only force that can be exerted on the airborne line *outside* the rod is exerted at the rod tip. Before hauling was discovered, the line momentum was indeed totally dependent on the acceleration of the rod tip. With hauling, this is no longer the case.  When hauling, the extra line velocity is independent of the rod tip. I’m not saying *anything* about the acceleration of the rod tip. I’m only saying that the force on the line (outside the rod) is generated ONLY at the rod tip. Where else? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

This is not a matter of taking sides I hope. Otherwise I will simply retire from the discussion. This is a technical discussion and nothing more. Apart from that, you are perfectly correct. Although the rod loading generated by hauling is inconsequential, irrespective of the current loading state of the rod.  When the rod is already optimally loaded, and as you say at its stiffest, the added loading generated by hauling is so small as to be insignificant. This is just as well, as if hauling did in fact appreciably increase rod loading, then an already optimally loaded rod would simply fold up under the added strain. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RW,     I have to side with Mike here, for a couple reasons.  If the haul is done right, it happens when the rod is fully loaded.  At that point it’s at it’s stiffest, and the flex isn’t increased much by the added force.  The reaction force is actually the force you apply with your line hand when you haul the line in.      A second reason that the loading is not the key is that you could achieve the same additional loading if you just applied a bit more casting force.  We know that a man of modest strength and a good haul can outcast a muscle man who doesn’t haul.      Also, there is direct pull on the line, the guides are like pulleys.  If you consider an 18 inch haul, and watch the effect on the rod tip, I bet it’s drawn back less than 4 inches.  The other 14 inches were directly applied to the line. Chas

Response:

This would be correct if the line was fixed at the rod tip. When hauling it is not. It moves more or less freely through the guides. The force applied is applied directly to the line, independent of the rod loading.  The "equal and opposite reaction" in this case, is immediate line acceleration due to a direct pull, and is independent of the rod. Some of this force( a relatively small amount actually ) does indeed go towards the total rod loading, but compared to the force which is transferred to the line, this may be more or less ignored.

I’m afraid you’re missing the point, Mike. It’s really irrelevant whether the line is fixed or free to move through the guides. There is a force exerted on the line, by the rod tip, that accelerates the line. There is a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the rod tip. That force has the effect of bending the rod. The greater the force, the more the line is accelerated, and the more the rod is bent (i.e., loaded). None of this force can be "ignored". The force generated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod. The acceleration is induced by a direct pull on the line, and is only possible because the line is indeed able to move independent of the rod tip.

Again, there’s no "direct" pull on the line. ALL the force affecting the airborne line is generated at the rod tip. If you lay  a piece of string along a table top, and pull one end, depending on the force and speed with which you pull, you can accelerate the string quite easily, giving it very considerable momentum. The string accelerates immediately, simply as a result of the pull. No rods etc are involved. The only force involved is the direct pull.

Sure, but that’s not what’s happening when the line is strung though a rod. You (the caster) can exert a force on the line in your left (hauling) hand, but the only force that can be exerted on the airborne line *outside* the rod is exerted at the rod tip. Before hauling was discovered, the line momentum was indeed totally dependent on the acceleration of the rod tip. With hauling, this is no longer the case.  When hauling, the extra line velocity is independent of the rod tip.

I’m not saying *anything* about the acceleration of the rod tip. I’m only saying that the force on the line (outside the rod) is generated ONLY at the rod tip. Where else? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Additional rod loading when hauling is  minimal.  Most of the force used is transmitted directly to the line, increasing its speed immediately and drastically. Momentum = Mass * Velocity

I have to doubt that additional rod loading is minimal, Mike. The only way the caster can increase the speed of the line is by accelerating it. The only way he can accelerate it is by exerting a force on the line at the rod tip. (F=ma). An equal and opposite force is exerted on the rod at the tip, which results in loading the rod. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

This would be correct if the line was fixed at the rod tip. When hauling it is not. It moves more or less freely through the guides. The force applied is applied directly to the line, independent of the rod loading.  The "equal and opposite reaction" in this case, is immediate line acceleration due to a direct pull, and is independent of the rod. Some of this force( a relatively small amount actually ) does indeed go towards the total rod loading, but compared to the force which is transferred to the line, this may be more or less ignored. The acceleration is induced by a direct pull on the line, and is only possible because the line is indeed able to move independent of the rod tip. If you lay  a piece of string along a table top, and pull one end, depending on the force and speed with which you pull, you can accelerate the string quite easily, giving it very considerable momentum. The string accelerates immediately, simply as a result of the pull. No rods etc are involved. The only force involved is the direct pull. Before hauling was discovered, the line momentum was indeed totally dependent on the acceleration of the rod tip. With hauling, this is no longer the case.  When hauling, the extra line velocity is independent of the rod tip. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Additional rod loading when hauling is  minimal.  Most of the force used is transmitted directly to the line, increasing its speed immediately and drastically. Momentum = Mass * Velocity I have to doubt that additional rod loading is minimal, Mike. The only way the caster can increase the speed of the line is by accelerating it. The only way he can accelerate it is by exerting a force on the line at the rod tip. (F=ma). An equal and opposite force is exerted on the rod at the tip, which results in loading the rod. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

One other point.  Inertia is the direct measurement of a mass.  The only way to change inertia is to change the mass. One may not "break" inertia.  One may overcome it, ( move the mass) by applying force. Newtons laws explain this relatively simply. The first law states that:  " A body will remain at rest, or continue to move steadily in a straight line without acceleration unless it is acted on by an unopposed force. The second law states: "The acceleration of a body depends directly on the force acting on it but inversely upon its mass" The third law states: "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" Force is a measure of the rate at which momentum is changed. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Additional rod loading when hauling is  minimal.  Most of the force used is transmitted directly to the line, increasing its speed immediately and drastically.

Response:

I sure hope you’re not breaking your wrist with this arm cast, which would be very bad form, you know. JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree with what you’re saying, but I can "cast" nearly thirty feet by using only my right arm as the rod (with fingers in O shape to act as the tiptop) and a lefthand haul. So there’s more to it than just the rod tip. In fact, in a blindfold test I can’t tell the difference between a Cabelas rod and my own arm

Response:

So, In your estimation, does your wrist have a fast action or slow action and how does it affect your distance?

Well, it’s not a limp wrist I’ll tell you that much And while it *is* acting as the rod tip, it’s not loading in the same sense as a fly rod is it? Isn’t most of the line action due to acceleration because I’m pulling on it (and not wrist flip caused by the pulling)? –Steve

Response:

RW,     I have to side with Mike here, for a couple reasons.  If the haul is done right, it happens when the rod is fully loaded.  At that point it’s at it’s stiffest, and the flex isn’t increased much by the added force.  The reaction force is actually the force you apply with your line hand when you haul the line in.      A second reason that the loading is not the key is that you could achieve the same additional loading if you just applied a bit more casting force.  We know that a man of modest strength and a good haul can outcast a muscle man who doesn’t haul.      Also, there is direct pull on the line, the guides are like pulleys.  If you consider an 18 inch haul, and watch the effect on the rod tip, I bet it’s drawn back less than 4 inches.  The other 14 inches were directly applied to the line. Chas

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This would be correct if the line was fixed at the rod tip. When hauling it is not. It moves more or less freely through the guides. The force applied is applied directly to the line, independent of the rod loading.  The "equal and opposite reaction" in this case, is immediate line acceleration due to a direct pull, and is independent of the rod. Some of this force( a relatively small amount actually ) does indeed go towards the total rod loading, but compared to the force which is transferred to the line, this may be more or less ignored. I’m afraid you’re missing the point, Mike. It’s really irrelevant whether the line is fixed or free to move through the guides. There is a force exerted on the line, by the rod tip, that accelerates the line. There is a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the rod tip. That force has the effect of bending the rod. The greater the force, the more the line is accelerated, and the more the rod is bent (i.e., loaded). None of this force can be "ignored". The force gener ated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod. The acceleration is induced by a direct pull on the line, and is only possible because the line is indeed able to move independent of the rod tip. Again, there’s no "direct" pull on the line. ALL the force affecting the airborne line is generated at the rod tip. If you lay  a piece of string along a table top, and pull one end, depending on the force and speed with which you pull, you can accelerate the string quite easily, giving it very considerable momentum. The string accelerates immediately, simply as a result of the pull. No rods etc are involved. The only force involved is the direct pull. Sure, but that’s not what’s happening when the line is strung though a rod. You (the caster) can exert a force on the line in your left (hauling) hand, but the only force that can be exerted on the airborne line *outside* the rod is exerted at the rod tip. Before hauling was discovered, the line momentum was indeed totally dependent on the acceleration of the rod tip. With hauling, this is no longer the case.  When hauling, the extra line velocity is independent of the rod tip. I’m not saying *anything* about the acceleration of the rod tip. I’m only saying that the force on the line (outside the rod) is generated ONLY at the rod tip. Where else? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

So, In your estimation, does your wrist have a fast action or slow action and how does it affect your distance? Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you haul you’re loading the rod by making it work harder against the inertia of the line. I don’t really think "shortening the line" is a good way to look at it. A haul takes in maybe two or three feet of line, and you have maybe 30 feet or more out. I agree with what you’re saying, but I can "cast" nearly thirty feet by using only my right arm as the rod (with fingers in O shape to act as the tiptop) and a lefthand haul. So there’s more to it than just the rod tip. In fact, in a blindfold test I can’t tell the difference between a Cabelas rod and my own arm –Steve

Response:

Additional rod loading when hauling is  minimal.  Most of the force used is transmitted directly to the line, increasing its speed immediately and drastically. Momentum = Mass * Velocity A very short haul of a couple of inches is sufficient to increase line speed drastically, and thus increase its momentum, allowing the mass to be thrown a greater distance. The harder(force), longer ( distance) and faster( time) the haul, the greater the resulting line momentum, independent of the rod.  The same effect may be observed without using a rod at all. Shortening line decreases the mass, and therefore reduces momentum.  As far as hauling is concerned this is more or less negligible. Shortening the line by even a couple of feet, does not reduce its mass by much. If you overload the rod, the haul will still be effective, but due to the rod already being overloaded, additional strain, even slight, due to shock loading might damage it. Otherwise the length of line ( total mass ) is irrelevant when hauling. The effect is the same with or without a rod, and with any length of line. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From what I’ve always been told,  the reason that hauling improves the line speed is that additional loading is put into the rod by the action of hauling. Obviously the hauling is done during the power phases fore and aft.  An immediate reaction of the hauling action is a shortening of the line,  and therefore an increase in velocity:  Is it at all significant compared to the additional loading of the rod?  Is the inertia of the line broken by the haul and therefore allows the spring of the rod to work on an already moving line? I suppose the way to test it out would be to overline a rod and cast a sufficient length of line to overload the rod.  Would hauling be effective? According to the simple haul/loading spring idea,  the haul would (perhaps) be ineffective, though the shortening of the line (derived from the haul) would still prevail?

Response:

When you haul you’re loading the rod by making it work harder against the inertia of the line. I don’t really think "shortening the line" is a good way to look at it. A haul takes in maybe two or three feet of line, and you have maybe 30 feet or more out.

I agree with what you’re saying, but I can "cast" nearly thirty feet by using only my right arm as the rod (with fingers in O shape to act as the tiptop) and a lefthand haul. So there’s more to it than just the rod tip. In fact, in a blindfold test I can’t tell the difference between a Cabelas rod and my own arm –Steve

Response:

From what I’ve always been told,  the reason that hauling improves the line speed is that additional loading is put into the rod by the action of hauling. Obviously the hauling is done during the power phases fore and aft.  An immediate reaction of the hauling action is a shortening of the line,  and therefore an increase in velocity:  Is it at all significant compared to the additional loading of the rod?  Is the inertia of the line broken by the haul and therefore allows the spring of the rod to work on an already moving line? I suppose the way to test it out would be to overline a rod and cast a sufficient length of line to overload the rod.  Would hauling be effective? According to the simple haul/loading spring idea,  the haul would (perhaps) be ineffective, though the shortening of the line (derived from the haul) would still prevail?

Response:

From what I’ve always been told,  the reason that hauling improves the line speed is that additional loading is put into the rod by the action of hauling. Obviously the hauling is done during the power phases fore and aft.  An immediate reaction of the hauling action is a shortening of the line,  and therefore an increase in velocity:  Is it at all significant compared to the additional loading of the rod?  Is the inertia of the line broken by the haul and therefore allows the spring of the rod to work on an already moving line?

When you haul you’re loading the rod by making it work harder against the inertia of the line. I don’t really think "shortening the line" is a good way to look at it. A haul takes in maybe two or three feet of line, and you have maybe 30 feet or more out. Imagine what would happen if the end of the line were attached to a springy tree branch when you hauled. (An all too frequent occurence in my case.) The rod would bend even if you didn’t move it forward. By hauling, you cause an increase in the force exerted by the rod tip on the line. When you haul in the normal, more felicitous case, more or less the same thing happens, but the resistance of the tree branch is replaced by the inertia of the line. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Question:

Wife and I just returned from 2 days of albie fishing, our first try at this species. Wow is this ever fun! The fish were breaking in good numbers in and near the Beaufort inlet, and we had over 10 fish on with 4 of those brought in, including a 17 pounder. I have never seen a fish take line like these, it is just astounding. 100 ft of fly line and 150 feet of backing disappearing in a flash. I got my knuckles rapped by the reel handle so many times, you think I would learn! It’s sobering how fast my fly casting "skills" left me when confronted by a pod of breaking fish 40 feet off the bow. "Why the hell isn’t the line shooting? Oh, I am forgetting to let go." We were fortunate to have perfect weather, too. This was a terrific experience, and we will defnitely be back! Peter G. Aitken

Response:

Wife and I just returned from 2 days of albie fishing, our first try at this species. Wow is this ever fun! The fish were breaking in good numbers in and near the Beaufort inlet, and we had over 10 fish on with 4 of those brought in, including a 17 pounder. I have never seen a fish take line like these, it is just astounding. 100 ft of fly line and 150 feet of backing disappearing in a flash. I got my knuckles rapped by the reel handle so many times, you think I would learn! It’s sobering how fast my fly casting "skills" left me when confronted by a pod of breaking fish 40 feet off the bow. "Why the hell isn’t the line shooting? Oh, I am forgetting to let go." We were fortunate to have perfect weather, too. This was a terrific experience, and we will defnitely be back! Peter G. Aitken

From my limited experience with False Albacore (really a Skipjack Tuna, I believe), you were either very lucky, extremely good, or both if you landed 4 of them with only 250′ of line.  A 17-pound False Albacore probably feels like a jet ski on the end of your line.  What type of leader/tippet material were you using? For those unfamiliar with these ’small’ tuna, consider this:  they can swim at speeds over 60 mph!  Your equipment (can you say disc drag?) had better be up to the task. I once witnessed a lady who hooked one on an old spinning reel from one of the fishing piers in Nags Head.  The fish took off and the reel’s drag had this horrible sound to it.  That horrible sound began changing pitch after about half of her line was out and the drag eventually siezed up.  The rod bent over and the line snapped.  Most of the regulars were howling with laughter.  Her boyfriend, one of the regulars, took some serious ribbing that day. Sounds like a great trip!  Thanks for the report. Tom G Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wife and I just returned from 2 days of albie fishing, our first try at this species. Wow is this ever fun! The fish were breaking in good numbers in and near the Beaufort inlet, and we had over 10 fish on with 4 of those brought in, including a 17 pounder. I have never seen a fish take line like these, it is just astounding. 100 ft of fly line and 150 feet of backing disappearing in a flash. I got my knuckles rapped by the reel handle so many times, you think I would learn! It’s sobering how fast my fly casting "skills" left me when confronted by a pod of breaking fish 40 feet off the bow. "Why the hell isn’t the line shooting? Oh, I am forgetting to let go." We were fortunate to have perfect weather, too. This was a terrific experience, and we will defnitely be back! Peter G. Aitken From my limited experience with False Albacore (really a Skipjack Tuna, I believe), you were either very lucky, extremely good, or both if you landed 4 of them with only 250′ of line.  A 17-pound False Albacore probably feels like a jet ski on the end of your line.  What type of leader/tippet material were you using? For those unfamiliar with these ’small’ tuna, consider this:  they can swim at speeds over 60 mph!  Your equipment (can you say disc drag?) had better be up to the task. I once witnessed a lady who hooked one on an old spinning reel from one of the fishing piers in Nags Head.  The fish took off and the reel’s drag had this horrible sound to it.  That horrible sound began changing pitch after about half of her line was out and the drag eventually siezed up.  The rod bent over and the line snapped.  Most of the regulars were howling with laughter.  Her boyfriend, one of the regulars, took some serious ribbing that day. Sounds like a great trip!  Thanks for the report. Tom G

I may be underestimating the amount of line that went out – it was a lot! I was using a 6 ft tapered leader and a tippet of 12 lb mono, 3 or so feet long. Caught some on a gray/white Clauser, one on a popper. Peter G. Aitken

Response:

Question:

If I were the judge I’ld dismiss the first three and sentence you to tying two dozen EHK dry flies and one years probation on 4, 5 and 6. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gentlemen, It has been brought to my attention that I may have commited numerous and severe crimes against the sport of fly fishing during my attendance at the Maine Clave. In my current state of poor health I have little recollection of the events of last week (although I hope in due time that my memory will unfade) so I cannot confirm nor deny these allegations. However, it seems that I have been charged with using the following: (1) a plastic fly rod (2) a disc drag fly reel (3) a landing net (4) one–sometimes even two–foam strike indicators (5) one–sometimes even two–splitshot (6) one–sometimes even two–nymphs, beadhead no less As I have no memory of these heinous alleged indescretions, I plan to plead an "I-have-no-recollection-of-that-incident-your-honor" defense. However, just because that line of defense has worked wonderfully for U.S. Presidents past and present does give me confidence. Therefore, gentlemen, I ask you to please, *please* stand up in my defense and deny these ugly charges. yr obt svt –Steve

Response:

Gentlemen, It has been brought to my attention that I may have commited numerous and severe crimes against the sport of fly fishing during my attendance at the Maine Clave.

        let’s just say the dynamite cap incident will remain "our little secret"… wayno

Response:

I wasn’t even there and want to go on record as stating you’re likely guilty as hell.  I want a special procecutor appointed!  Reno?! — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Steve Zimmerman writes: (1) a plastic fly rod (2) a disc drag fly reel (3) a landing net (4) one–sometimes even two–foam strike indicators (5) one–sometimes even two–splitshot (6) one–sometimes even two–nymphs, beadhead no less

 (1) I saw a wooden fly rod and a graphite one also.  No plastic. (2)  Drag reels are fine. (3)  Landing nets are fine as long as it has the net like you used.  The nylon rope ones you see in Wally World suck. (4)  Nothing wrong with using a strike indicator. (5)  Try to keep it to one split shot.  It works better. (6)  If you know what nymph to use, you don’t need two.  I told you what nymph to use.  Case closed!  <g Dave

Response:

Paul Goodwin writes: If I were the judge I’ld dismiss the first three and sentence you to tying two dozen EHK dry flies and one years probation on 4, 5 and 6.

ROFLMAO.  I seem to remember you with two of those sticky foam strike indicators, a giant grasshopper (also a strike indicator), and two of the biggest and uggliest weighted nymphs I’ve ever seen. <g Dave LaCourse

Response:

I tried nymphing but I didn’t inhale.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Paul Goodwin writes: If I were the judge I’ld dismiss the first three and sentence you to tying two dozen EHK dry flies and one years probation on 4, 5 and 6. ROFLMAO.  I seem to remember you with two of those sticky foam strike indicators, a giant grasshopper (also a strike indicator), and two of the biggest and uggliest weighted nymphs I’ve ever seen. <g Dave LaCourse

Response:

I tried nymphing but I didn’t inhale.

neither did any of the fish.  :) Peter

Response:

[allegations snipped] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(1) a plastic fly rod (2) a disc drag fly reel (3) a landing net (4) one–sometimes even two–foam strike indicators (5) one–sometimes even two–splitshot (6) one–sometimes even two–nymphs, beadhead no less Therefore, gentlemen, I ask you to please, *please* stand up in my defense and deny these ugly charges. yr obt svt –Steve

I am willing to stand as a character reference for you however you should be warned that should you ever travel to Canada, this list of charges will no doubt result in you being assigned to the "dangerous offender" category and the sentence will probably be life – nymphing first current for suckers. (ask Louie for help – he’s good at it.) Peter

Response:

Peter Charles: I am willing to stand as a character reference for you however you should be warned that should you ever travel to Canada, this list of charges will no doubt result in you being assigned to the "dangerous offender" category and the sentence will probably be life – nymphing first current for suckers. (ask Louie for help – he’s good at it.) Peter

LOL.  That is the first one I have caught in any of the currents.  They are quite prevalent in wing dam pool.  They must move down the currents preparing to go into pondy for the winter. Louie

Response:

Gentlemen, It has been brought to my attention that I may have commited numerous and severe crimes against the sport of fly fishing during my attendance at the Maine Clave. In my current state of poor health I have little recollection of the events of last week (although I hope in due time that my memory will unfade) so I cannot confirm nor deny these allegations. However, it seems that I have been charged with using the following: (1) a plastic fly rod (2) a disc drag fly reel (3) a landing net (4) one–sometimes even two–foam strike indicators (5) one–sometimes even two–splitshot (6) one–sometimes even two–nymphs, beadhead no less As I have no memory of these heinous alleged indescretions, I plan to plead an "I-have-no-recollection-of-that-incident-your-honor" defense. However, just because that line of defense has worked wonderfully for U.S. Presidents past and present does give me confidence. Therefore, gentlemen, I ask you to please, *please* stand up in my defense and deny these ugly charges. yr obt svt –Steve

Response:

Question:

Hi All, Any bonefish flats around Grenada? Thnaks

Response:

Hi All, Any bonefish flats around Grenada? Thnaks

Bill, Grenada is a hilly, volcanic island where the water depth drops rapidly as you move away from the shore.  I am not aware of any extensive stretches of shallow water like you find in Florida and the Bahamas.  There are some relatively shallow areas with reefs (the southern shore comes to mind), but I don’t think these are the types of places fisherman describe as "flats." I have chartered sailboats in Grenada, but I have not fished there. Perhaps another poster familiar with fishing in the area can help you. Ernie Carnicelli

Response:

Question:

Can anyone tell me when and where are the 1998 East Coast wholesale dealer trade shows rumrunner

Response:

Can anyone tell me when and where are the 1998 East Coast wholesale dealer trade shows rumrunner

There are no wholesale trade shows in the east that I’m aware of – just the IFTD and NAFTA shows in Denver and Salt Lake City. — Best regards, Dave Visit Dave Teffeteller’s Fly Fishing Guides Home Page http://www.olfart.com

Response:

Let me know if you get an answer…interested too. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Can anyone tell me when and where are the 1998 East Coast wholesale dealer trade shows rumrunner

Response:

Question:

t… i use a white zonker fished on an intermediate sink tip in the summer for cats on the fox river in wisconsin. i get by on a  8 wt. st. croix, and have a fine time doing so… i think it’s mainly a problem of identifying the forage fish (in my case, a white perch) and getting down to the cats. and when they strike…well, i’ll leave that for your first fish… hex

Response:

http://www.smallstreams.com/Cat.html The above article is one that resides on my little site. adam Small Stream Fly Fishing http://www.smallstreams.com

Response:

This past spring and summer I caught quite a few channel cats on flies. Any kind of streamer seems to work fine. Drifting the fly near blowdowns and into deeper holes and just letting it hang in the current, no retrieve, seemed to work best. Evan

Response:

Any body out there fly fishing for catfish? Duane:  I can tell you that when the whitefly is on the Susquehanna River, I have had a blast taking rising catfish on a dry.  This would be late July-August in most years.  They fight like an old tire – just drag them in.

….don’t know what kind of catfish that would be (fights like an old tire). In Montana, we have channel catfish in the praire rivers, and they fight like buffalo soldiers.     Note that bacon rind will stay on a hook all day. So will fresh pork skin, which, when fished with a shooting head and a pea-sized split shot, works well for channel catfish. —  * Center For Computational Biology            * Montana State University                            */

Response:

I visit a 50 acre lake about two hours north of Houston, TX a couple times each year and usually take a flyrod with me.  When I cannot get the Bass, Bluegill or Crappie to cooperate (rare) I’ll resort to Catfish.  For me, sizable Blues and Channel Cats will readily take a Woolly Bugger #2-4 Black on 0-1X leader about 7 ft or so.  They don’t seem to be leader shy. — KennyM "I fish because I love to…"

t… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Any body out there fly fishing for catfish? With 4-10 pounders farly normal in the rivers (at least around here) I was wondering if anyone had given this a try. I didn’t find out about this aspect of the sport until after the fishing slowed down for the winter.  Haven’t had much luck with the catfish so far, but I also haven’t had much luck in the last 4 weeks catching anything except a cold. I was wondering what gear was preferred by the more experienced folks to take these wee beasties and what patterns folks used other than Hellgramites and Joe’s Hopper.  With luch like this I’ll have plenty of time to tie the patterns before the water starts getting warm.  (Of course, I could always use the time to catch those funny looking rainbow colored fish that are stocked down here in the winter time.) Thanks in advance for any info.

Response:

Any body out there fly fishing for catfish? With 4-10 pounders farly normal in the rivers (at least around here) I was wondering if anyone had given this a try. I didn’t find out about this aspect of the sport until after the fishing slowed down for the winter.  Haven’t had much luck with the catfish so far, but I also haven’t had much luck in the last 4 weeks catching anything except a cold. I was wondering what gear was preferred by the more experienced folks to take these wee beasties and what patterns folks used other than Hellgramites and Joe’s Hopper.  With luch like this I’ll have plenty of time to tie the patterns before the water starts getting warm.  (Of course, I could always use the time to catch those funny looking rainbow colored fish that are stocked down here in the winter time.) Thanks in advance for any info.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any body out there fly fishing for catfish? With 4-10 pounders farly normal in the rivers (at least around here) I was wondering if anyone had given this a try. I didn’t find out about this aspect of the sport until after the fishing slowed down for the winter.  Haven’t had much luck with the catfish so far, but I also haven’t had much luck in the last 4 weeks catching anything except a cold. I was wondering what gear was preferred by the more experienced folks to take these wee beasties and what patterns folks used other than Hellgramites and Joe’s Hopper.  With luch like this I’ll have plenty of time to tie the patterns before the water starts getting warm.  (Of course, I could always use the time to catch those funny looking rainbow colored fish that are stocked down here in the winter time.) Thanks in advance for any info.

When I lived in Kansas I used to catch a few channel cat on wooly buggers, zonkers and decievers, mostly when I was fishing for white bass or crappie. — Charlie…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any body out there fly fishing for catfish? With 4-10 pounders farly normal in the rivers (at least around here) I was wondering if anyone had given this a try. I didn’t find out about this aspect of the sport until after the fishing slowed down for the winter.  Haven’t had much luck with the catfish so far, but I also haven’t had much luck in the last 4 weeks catching anything except a cold. I was wondering what gear was preferred by the more experienced folks to take these wee beasties and what patterns folks used other than Hellgramites and Joe’s Hopper.  With luch like this I’ll have plenty of time to tie the patterns before the water starts getting warm.  (Of course, I could always use the time to catch those funny looking rainbow colored fish that are stocked down here in the winter time.) Thanks in advance for any info.

Hi Duaine, I’ve caught a few catfish while "crawling" a woolly bugger through still water. I’ve never been sure if catching them was a mistake or not but they were hooked in the mouth. I’ve never had any real consistant success though. On the other hand I’ve had a lot of fun fly fishing for carp. They tend to hold in slow or non-moving water and take buggers fairly well. Because they are often in shallow water they can be real spooky. Good luck & … — Tight Lines — Al Beatty Whiting Farms (Hoffman Hackle)

Response:

Any body out there fly fishing for catfish? With 4-10 pounders farly normal in the rivers (at least around here) I was wondering if anyone had given this a try.

Duane:  I can tell you that when the whitefly is on the Susquehanna River, I have had a blast taking rising catfish on a dry.  This would be late July-August in most years.  They fight like an old tire – just drag them in. It gets to be an art to distinquish the catfish rises from the smallmouth rises. Mark Faulkner

Response:

Ditto the whitefly post–channel cats belly up to the smorgasbord in late summer on the Potomac, too.  I’ve caught a number of catfish on dark strip-leeches or butch minnows while fishing for smallies.  They will take minnow imitations in our eastern rivers, and quickly too.  An element of luck or accident is involved, though. Dave Motes

Response:

Duane:  I can tell you that when the whitefly is on the Susquehanna River, I have had a blast taking rising catfish on a dry.  This would be late July-August in most years.  They fight like an old tire – just drag them in. It gets to be an art to distinquish the catfish rises from the smallmouth rises. Mark Faulkner

  What kind of catfish were these? I’ve caught a few Channel Cats when fishing for bass & they fought like a freight train. Willi

Response:

Duaine –         There are a couple of small streams and lakes that I know of in Arkansas where the catfish will readily take a fly.  This seems to be somewhat aberrant behavior for a catfish, but in these particular areas they are the primary predator species (for some reason the smallmouth bass haven’t done well there – overfishing?), and they don’t seem to show the normal reluctance that cats show.  The water in these areas is normally gin-clear, and I usually catch channel catfish on flies.  The other species of cats, while present, only occasionally will take a fly.         The cats will only rarely take a dry fly (usually a hopper pattern), but will aggressively charge an olive-green wooly bugger or zonker.  There is a lot of vegetation in these waters, and there is a large number of small (2") fry from bluegill, which the streamers do a pretty good job of imitating.   For some reason, the period during and immediately after a thunderstorm is vastly the most productive.  I’ve taken channel catfish up to 10 lbs. in these waters, sometimes catching 10 or 15 in a single afternoon of fishing.         The largest cat I ever took on a fly was actually on the Potomac river right at the Beltway around Washington D.C.   That particular fish hit a large white streamer I was casting for smallmouth bass, and then proceeded to drag me up and down the river (on foot, no less) for about an hour before I could get close enough to remove the hook.  I didn’t attempt to weigh him, but he was about the length of my leg to the hip (say 36"), and bigger in girth.  My best guesstimate for his weight would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 lbs. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any body out there fly fishing for catfish? With 4-10 pounders farly normal in the rivers (at least around here) I was wondering if anyone had given this a try. I didn’t find out about this aspect of the sport until after the fishing slowed down for the winter.  Haven’t had much luck with the catfish so far, but I also haven’t had much luck in the last 4 weeks catching anything except a cold. I was wondering what gear was preferred by the more experienced folks to take these wee beasties and what patterns folks used other than Hellgramites and Joe’s Hopper.  With luch like this I’ll have plenty of time to tie the patterns before the water starts getting warm.  (Of course, I could always use the time to catch those funny looking rainbow colored fish that are stocked down here in the winter time.) Thanks in advance for any info.

Response:

Question:

Does anyone know where i can order some caddis and/or mayfly larvae? thanks.

Response:

Try contacting people that do trout streams, etc. Also Trout Unlimited may give you some names. If you dont need to many go to the nearest trout stream and pick them. Caddis larvae are easy to pick and they usually in large numbers. Good luck

Response:

Does anyone know where i can order some caddis and/or mayfly larvae? thanks.

You can also look in Fly Fishing magazine in ads. People that do trout streams have ads there. ZB

Response:

go to your nearest river or stream and try picking the nymphs and larvae off of the bottom of rocks.  I was wondering, do you want these to provide fish with a source of food?

Response:

Does anyone know where i can order some caddis and/or mayfly larvae? thanks.

Response:

Try contacting people that do trout streams, etc. Also Trout Unlimited may give you some names. If you dont need to many go to the nearest trout stream and pick them. Caddis larvae are easy to pick and they usually in large numbers. Good luck

Response:

Does anyone know where i can order some caddis and/or mayfly larvae? thanks.

You can also look in Fly Fishing magazine in ads. People that do trout streams have ads there. ZB

Response:

go to your nearest river or stream and try picking the nymphs and larvae off of the bottom of rocks.  I was wondering, do you want these to provide fish with a source of food?

Response:

Question:

I am headed down to Bend, Oregon this weekend and wanted to do a little fly fishing.  I know only portions of the Deschutes are open at this time (Bend north to Lake Billy Chinook) and was wondering if anyone had any advice on where to go and what to use.  Email me directly…and thanks in advance. Kevin Curry Linfield College

Response:

I am headed down to Bend, Oregon this weekend and wanted to do a little fly fishing.  I know only portions of the Deschutes are open at this time (Bend north to Lake Billy Chinook) and was wondering if anyone had any advice on where to go and what to use.  Email me directly…and thanks in advance. Kevin Curry Linfield College

Kevin and other Deschutes flyfishers: Check out the Online Gillie section at Flyfishers Online.  A long-time guide on the river has begun writing monthly articles as well as contributing condition reports for the river. Online Gillie is at: http://www.flyfishers.com:80/flyfishers-online/flyfishers-gillie.html Condition Reports are at: http://www.flyfishers.com:80/flyfishers-online/flyfishers-reports.html Cy Happy, a guide and partner at Ray’s River Dories (also at Flyfishers Online) floated Trout Creek to Maupin a week ago and reported that the high water flow had changed the bank topography quite considerably. For instance, at the favorite island lunch stop just south of North Junction he reported that the water had swept a good number of the bankside trees away, leaving the channel quite navigable; a change, indeed, from the past few years. Hope this helps. Best, Peter Yoakum, Editor Flyfishers Online

Response:

Question:

: Recently I have begun to do some offshore racing outside the San Francisco Bay  and I now need to buy my own offshore harness.  I’ve been advised that a : a self-inflating harness is the best way to go. : However, I work the foredeck. : Some people say that you really have to submerge these harnesses for them : to inflate, others say that they’ve had them inflate when they are piled : in with other wet gear for a period of time. I’ve used the belt inflated life jacket for about 3 years now.  Normal maintanence requires that you inflate them once a year at least.  If you do that the unit will not inflate until it is under water for a time. If you don’t inflate it regularly it may more may not inflate when you need it.  The CO2 cartrage will discharge over time so you want to replace it yearly to be on the safe side.  If you inflat it put it under water to check for leaks.  A unit that isn’t repack once in a while will be more likely to be holed. I’d say get you’re own equipment.  Also look at the line that connects the harness to the boat.  You may want different lengths for different boats. I’m currently running my jack line from the cochpit around the babystay and back.  This way I can walk around the mast and back if I don’t like the seas on the low side etc.  As this line floats up I can run a very short line.  If I have crew up there on the foredeck helping I need more line. I find line length effects productivity up there.  A short line that is long enough to do the job doesn’t get tangled, stepped on or removed because it’s in the way.  You can make a long line short by splicing your own end and feeding a bunge cord through it. For fore deck work I would recomend getting very creative with this jack line.  If you don’t you will find yourself up there removing it to untangle yourself etc. As for the clip for a jack line they put some pretty user unfreindly line connectors on some of the harness.  I’m devided as they must have a reason but I end up using carbeners because they are easy to work with going in and out of the cabin.  Basicly if I don’t have to think about it I find I connect myself.  If I have to fiddle with it I catch myself unconnected. Another thing to look at on a harness is storage.  I know this sounds strange but the ‘right’ place to put a wistle and a water prouf flash light is on the harness.  It’s been measured that you can blow a wistle in cold water when you can’t yell to flag another boat down. I have the personel strobes but the helogen flash lights (small ones using the AA batteries) can be pointed right at the boat you’re trying to flag down.  These little guys are bright and last a good long time. I also have more faith in a light I’m using often to one that is stored and never used but to test.  Tests don’t give you a feel for the battery life etc. As a fordeck person I hope you know never to go up there without a good sharp knife.  This could save your life someday if you ever get wrapped. I started doing this years ago never needed it but if it’s blowing hard you may not be able to communicate you’re arm being broken to the guy behind you. — AST Research Inc.          (714) 727-8669

Response:

In practice it’s actually very rare for foredeck crew to be "hooked in" while working the foredeck of a competitive race boat. They hook in while sitting on the rail or trimming, but being tethered during a jibe or sail change would be problematic. *Some* crew hook in during these maneuvers at night, but this is rare, in my experience. Even singlehanded, it took practice to learn how to jibe the spinnaker while hooked in. For a full crew to jibe an ocean racer with all their tethers attached would be chaos.   Your first defense against being lost overboard (after holding on tight, that is) is a good life jacket and a personal strobe and whistle. Maybe a backup waterproof flashlight, too. I’m very strict about wearing this equipment offshore. The harness, in the vast majority of weather conditions you’ll encounter off the coast, is going to be far too encumbering to allow you to race the boat effectively. I have an old North vest which I love because it has nice deep pockets for the strobe and other stuff (and it served well when I survived a sinking, the Bird boat FALCON in 1989 Master Mariners, in the middle of SF Bay). If I were shopping for a new lifejacket I’d probably favor one of the Stearns fishing models, because of the multiple pockets, and the high degree of freedom of motion they offer. Having said that, you still need a harness for the times that the weather is *really* bad, and especially for the long time intervals between maneuvers when there’s no efficiency lost by being hooked on. So my preference is for a single-purpose shoulder harness, of a fairly simple design that can be sorted out and put on in the dark while you hold on with the other hand. It’s important that the tether have good, oversized (expensive) shackles at *both* ends, so if you find yourself tangled in something you can re-lead from your end. Also consider using some nylon rope instead of the webbing for the tether. A cleat hitch around the nearest cleat is generally more reliable than a carbiner through a pad eye, and you can adjust the length of the teather to be no longer than what you really need. BTW I don’t think much of caribiners for this application, because they have to be closed to develop full strength. (my tether has a very large torsion-spring gate-type snap hook on the far end, and an equally oversize "fly-away" type spinnaker sheet shackle (about what you’d find on a 40′ boat) at my end.                                              -"Call me Fishmeal"-

Response:

Some people say that you really have to submerge these harnesses for them to inflate, others say that they’ve had them inflate when they are piled in with other wet gear for a period of time.

My experience is that on a long wet trip e.g. sailing from Hawaii back to California, the self-inflating life jackets always trigger. My suboptimal solution has been to remove the self inflating cap, spring, and tablet, but leave the CO2 cartridge and the manual trigger pull tab. Stan Honey San Francisco

Response:

|   | Some people say that you really have to submerge these harnesses for them | to inflate, others say that they’ve had them inflate when they are piled | in with other wet gear for a period of time. |   | My experience is that on a long wet trip e.g. sailing from Hawaii | back to California, the self-inflating life jackets always trigger. | My suboptimal solution has been to remove the self inflating cap, | spring, and tablet, but leave the CO2 cartridge and the manual trigger | pull tab. On the other hand, my experience with a Crewsaver, Crewfit lifejacket is that it has never inflated when I haven’t wanted it to, and has inflated when needed.  I have been out in conditions when I would have expected it to trigger and it hasn’t. I suspect that the tendency to trigger "accidently" depends on the particular lifejacket.  The self inflating capsule on the Crewsaver is well protected by the folded lifejacket and this may not be the case in other designs. Marion Edwards

Response:

Recently I have begun to do some offshore racing outside the San Francisco Bay  and I now need to buy my own offshore harness.  I’ve been advised that a a self-inflating harness is the best way to go. However, I work the foredeck. Some people say that you really have to submerge these harnesses for them to inflate, others say that they’ve had them inflate when they are piled in with other wet gear for a period of time. I would appreciate anyone else’s feedback and experience on this before I spend some money. Thanks for the help, Allison Serventi

Response: