Question:

That was my raffle prize – did you win it?

Jeff, I’d read it earlier and still have it.  At the raffle I won something that I didn’t want and then IJ made some kind of fast trade with me for something that I wanted even less.  The raffle was excellent by the way. bruce h

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I liked "Wisdom of the Guides" quite a bit.

OK, I changed the order again. Damn these compiles are taking forever tonight!

Response:

I liked "Wisdom of the Guides" quite a bit. That was my raffle prize – did you win it?

"Re-gifter"?  ;-)

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Would someone/everyone mind commenting on these two books (Prospecting for Trout by Rosenbauer; Reading the Water by Hughes) . . .  I’m certainly not casting this as a competition, just want to understand a little more about them from the always enlightening roff perspective. Thanks!

I just finished reading "Reading the Water" by Dave Hughes. I felt it would have been a better book with a few less words and a few more illustrations to illustrate what he was talking about. It was enjoyable reading though. HTH, Russell Thinkin’ RockTrout won’t be changin’ his order for this one.

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I liked "Wisdom of the Guides" quite a bit. That was my raffle prize – did you win it? "Re-gifter"?  ;-)

No no, I bought it new for the raffle.  There were interviews with guys like Mike Lawson, which seemed appropriate for the Henry’s Fork Clave.

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I know Prospecting for Trout fairly well.  Rosenbauer is an Orvis bigwig, and I believe he has written some of their best books. The book was originally printed under a separate publisher.  On recent printings, it’s being published by Orvis, as part of their "library" of fishing books.  He also wrote a book on reading the water which might be better than Hughes’ by the way, simply because it has more and bigger pictures, and pictures are important for learning how to read water.

Alright Jeff, you talked me into getting the book.  I also decided to pick up 3 others….:)  All on sale right now at Amazon with free shipping!

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I liked "Wisdom of the Guides" quite a bit. bruce h currently enjoying "The River Why"

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I liked "Wisdom of the Guides" quite a bit.

Me too. Lots of good tidbits in that book. I thought that the author could do a whole series of books. It would be easy, just interview some more guides. Willi

Response:

I liked "Wisdom of the Guides" quite a bit.

That was my raffle prize – did you win it?

Response:

Would someone/everyone mind commenting on these two books (Prospecting for Trout by Rosenbauer; Reading the Water by Hughes) . . .  I’m certainly not casting this as a competition, just want to understand a little more about them from the always enlightening roff perspective. Thanks!

Response:

Would someone/everyone mind commenting on these two books (Prospecting for Trout by Rosenbauer; Reading the Water by Hughes) . . .  I’m certainly not casting this as a competition, just want to understand a little more about them from the always enlightening roff perspective. Thanks!

I know Prospecting for Trout fairly well.  Rosenbauer is an Orvis bigwig, and I believe he has written some of their best books.  He also grew up in my neck of the woods, and comes to visit from time to time. The book is mainly about how to fish when the dry fly fishing is off, i.e., how to approach a stream when you don’t see any fish rising, and you don’t know much about the water.  I think its a very good book. — Scott Reverse first field of address to reply

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I know Prospecting for Trout fairly well.  Rosenbauer is an Orvis bigwig, and I believe he has written some of their best books.

The book was originally printed under a separate publisher.  On recent printings, it’s being published by Orvis, as part of their "library" of fishing books.  He also wrote a book on reading the water which might be better than Hughes’ by the way, simply because it has more and bigger pictures, and pictures are important for learning how to read water. The book is mainly about how to fish when the dry fly fishing is off, i.e., how to approach a stream when you don’t see any fish rising, and you don’t know much about the water.  I think its a very good book.

When you don’t see fish rising, but not necessarily when dry fly fishing is off!  Agreed, it’s very good for quickly sizing up water that you’ve never seen before – highly recommended.

Response:

Question:

I have a 12 foot Lund with a 9.9 hp Spirit (made by Suzuki and sold by Arctic Cat) ob. and I use the hell out of it.  Though I must admit, now that the kids are getting bigger, the boat is feeling awfully crowded, and I am keeping my eyes open for a bigger boat.  I gather you use it on reasonably benign water.  A good  argument for something bigger is the added margin of  safety that it gives you.  

Yup.  I use it mostly on small lakes, and fairly sheltered bays on big lakes, in calm weather.  When I take it out on open water on a large lake, I keep a weather eye out, and beat it back to land if it starts to blow even a little bit.   The next boat I buy will probably be about 17-18 feet V-hull with a 40-50 hp motor, which will give us a little more elbow room when the whole family is out, and will let us stay out longer when the wind blows (which, of course, is when the fishing is best.) Or I could go smaller, and buy a couple of canoes.  The kids are at that age when they can’t really contribute much to paddling yet, but we can’t squeeze all four of us into one canoe anymore.  Maybe in a couple of years… Kevin (Oh, who the hell am I kidding?  I’ll be getting the big boat AND the canoes eventually…)

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Hi Chris, I actually just love boats. Your 26′ Almar is extremely sexy. Catching Sea Runs sounds like fun too. Thanks for the fun info. Bill K

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, What kind of small boats do you fly fish out of and tell me about how they are equipped. Where do you use them? I am using a 10′ Valco pram and a 14′ Lowe Jon boat myself. Bill Kiene 26′ Almar Sounder, 225 Mercury Optimax, 25 Mercury 4-stroke kicker… electronic goodies such as radar, gps, 2 sounders, vhs).  use it for fishing offshore salmon, bottomfish and halibut. www.fly-fishing-neahbay.com/boatequipment.html 18′ Valco Bayrunner set up with oarlocks…. use it for fishing hood canal for sea-run cutthroat. oh crap, you said small boats <G chris

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Hi Joe, What is a South Fork skiff?  I am curious. Milton is better now sense they dredged it out some years back. Montana sounds pretty cool. How did you pull that off? Bill Kiene

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Bill I have a Coleman Caddis for still waters and a south fork skiff for drifting.  I fish mostly around my home in sw montana, but I lived in Truckee, Ca for many years.  Used the caddis mostly on Martis and Milton reservoirs.  BTW how is Milton these days? Joe Hi All, What kind of small boats do you fly fish out of and tell me about how they are equipped. Where do you use them? I am using a 10′ Valco pram and a 14′ Lowe Jon boat myself. Bill Kiene

Response:

Hi Larry, I might have to try that maple leaf deal. Sounds good. Bill Kiene

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 12`  olive drab John boat. The bottom was camouflaged by laying maple leaves oak leaves on it and spray painting around them with black rustoleum 16/6 pontoon boat equipped with twin minn kota Neptune motors (For when wife is along) — Fly Fisherman With a Furless Naked Cat named Dub.

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Hi David, Wooden boats are beautiful. Thanks Bill Kiene

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I use a 14′ lapstrake canoe,  nice and light.  ’course I built it myself…… David

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Hi All, What kind of small boats do you fly fish out of and tell me about how they are equipped. Where do you use them?

I use a Wilderness Systems ‘Ride’ SOT kayak for river and inshore saltwater fly fishing. I have a couple of Scotty fly rod holders mounted to the rear of the seat on both sides and use a float tube anchor off the bow rigged with a couple of eyelets to guide the line and a jam cleat to hold it. Works great. — Charlie…

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I have a 12 ft. Oldtown canoe. It weighs all of 34 pounds. The only special equipment I use is a modified over the shoulder bag that I can clip onto the center thwart and a bow placed pulley for an anchor rope. I can place my rod in the canoe while I carry it into ponds or rivers. It is stable enough for anything short of white water. I have been known to stand in it under extremely calm conditions, but I wouldn’t recommend it. -RTW What kind of small boats do you fly fish out of and tell me about how they are equipped. Where do you use them?

– Remove "zzz" from address if emailing direct.

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"Bill Kiene" asked What kind of small boats do you fly fish out of and tell me about how they are equipped. Bill, I use a 10ft Livingston fiberglass boat with only one add’l piece of equipment.  I have added some high back seats for the aging back.  It is a bit too heavy, these days, to haul around as a car top (can only use it as a two person boat, but 20 years ago, I launched it by myself).  I have had it for over 20 years+ and it shows all its age.  However, if I were to go out and buy a single person, non-pontoon, non-float tube, I might consider this: http://www.tribalance.com/ Chris Fanning

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Hi Frank, I have had lots of fun in small boats from 8′ to 14′.

I always tell people that, contrary to what your local boat dealer will try to tell you, the smallest boat that will safely take you where you want to go is the best boat.  A solo canoe that a kid can pick up and carry to the water will get a hundred times more use than a big boat that takes an hour just to get rigged up and underway.  A typical 40-50 foot motoryacht or sailing yacht spends the whole summer tied up in its slip and never, ever leaves the marina, which I think is just the height of absurdity. I have a 12 foot Lund with a 9.9 hp Spirit (made by Suzuki and sold by Arctic Cat) ob. and I use the hell out of it.  Though I must admit, now that the kids are getting bigger, the boat is feeling awfully crowded, and I am keeping my eyes open for a bigger boat. Kevin

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" A typical 40-50 foot motoryacht or sailing yacht spends the whole summer tied up in its slip and never, ever leaves the marina, which I think is just the height of absurdity." true- but, We took a weekend and went over to Lake Coeur d’ Alene  a few years back- At the marina I was astounded at the number of big boats – the attendant at the marina said that the land and property taxes were so high that it was more economical to slip a big yacht and weekend on it that it was to own recreational property on the lake.

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 I gather you use it on reasonably benign water.  A good  argument for something bigger is the added margin of  safety that it gives you.  Peter and I watched a boat that  was similar to yours struggling up the upper Niagara  yesterday on a stretch that I would tackle with a minimum  length of 16-17 feet and at least 25 inches of freeboard,  and considerably more horsepower.

When I was but a wee lad, my dad bought a 12′ aluminum rowboat & 3.5 hp outboard from Monkey Wards.   The five of us would load ourselves into it & head out from Crisfield into the Chesapeake for a day of fishing.   In that respect, Kevin is right.   We were able to actually get out on the water by buying something, anything we could afford at the time.   From a safety standpoint, however, we were probably nuts.   I remember one particular day we’d been well out (a 3-hr. motor with that setup) into Tangier Sound fishing while the wind built slowly.   By the time we prudently headed back in, the 12-footer was surfing down some pretty good swells, throwing spray, & occasionally digging the bow into the bottom of a trough as we slowly made our back to protected waters.   As a kid, it was great fun, but now that I’m the dad, I gotta think he was worried we were all going to drown.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

Hi Frank, I have had lots of fun in small boats from 8′ to 14′. Bill K

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, What kind of small boats do you fly fish out of and tell me about how they are equipped. Where do you use them? I am using a 10′ Valco pram and a 14′ Lowe Jon boat myself. Bill Kiene My main bass boat is a 12′ Bass Tracker, actually is is just a shrunk down version of the big bass boats. (this is my big river boat) It has everything they do, ie: bow mount electric motor, live well, rod storage, pedestal seats, nav lites and bilge pump, and powered by a dependable Mercury 6. I love it as it is easy to launch for one little old fart, and very stable, which keeps the old fart in the boat. Then there is the 6′ inflateable pontoon boat with oars, and last but certainly not least is my TU "belly boat", which is not round but has a pointy end. This is my serious floating for smallies boat, and works wonderfully well in small rivers. Last 2 years it has floated me over some moderately tame rapids in the Rappahannock river. Frank (popeye the sailorman) Church

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I use a Davbe Scadden Escalade boat for small lakes and rivers where the rapids aren’t too scary. See a picture at: http://www.davescaddenpontooncraft.com/escaladed.html I like being able to paddle it with a kayak paddle, and also being able to stand up through the hole in the front.  I haven’t worked out a good anchor system yet, and it’s not very fast (my max speed is 2.5 mph as measured with my GPS) I’ve used the boat to drift the Skykomish, the Hoh, and the Skagit rivers. For bigger lakes, I use my canoe, but at 18′4" it’s not really small. Chas Fix underscore in address to reply

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I use a 14′ lapstrake canoe,  nice and light.  ’course I built it myself…… David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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How much do those go for?  They look pretty interesting… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I use a Davbe Scadden Escalade boat for small lakes and rivers where the rapids aren’t too scary. See a picture at: http://www.davescaddenpontooncraft.com/escaladed.html I like being able to paddle it with a kayak paddle, and also being able to stand up through the hole in the front.  I haven’t worked out a good anchor system yet, and it’s not very fast (my max speed is 2.5 mph as measured with my GPS) I’ve used the boat to drift the Skykomish, the Hoh, and the Skagit rivers. For bigger lakes, I use my canoe, but at 18′4" it’s not really small. Chas Fix underscore in address to reply

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…..Main fishing hole is PASS LAKE in WA state.

Hey!  I got their bug!  I mean, I got 36 of their bug…..gonna catch me lotsa fish on Penn,s too! Wolfgang hey wayno, you want ‘em gift wrapped?

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I think it was $600 at REI last year.  I got a 25% discount as one of their one item promotions, bringing it down to $450. If you do a google search, you can find a few dealers selling it.   Unlike other boats, it’s not too expensive to ship at 18 pounds in a 16 inch cude. Chas If you get one, remember not to open the side zipper and take the liner bag out to dry.  It’s almost impossible to get it back in the right place so the boat doesn’t show any wrinkles.  They’ve put some sort of powder, probably talc in there, so the bag will slide inside the hypalon outer shell.  I made the mistake of rinsing that off. How much do those go for?  They look pretty interesting… I use a Davbe Scadden Escalade boat for small lakes and rivers where

Fix underscore in address to reply

Response:

Hi All, What kind of small boats do you fly fish out of and tell me about how they are equipped. Where do you use them? I am using a 10′ Valco pram and a 14′ Lowe Jon boat myself. Bill Kiene

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Bill, It just so happens that I am in search of a good used 14′ Jon boat to use in the back bays and shallow areas around the DE shoreline. Seems like this is the best approach (for me), as most of my boat owner-type salt buddies are using much bigger craft and can only access bigger waters. Trailering and launching these vessels can be somewhat problematic at times, as I have witnessed. Maintenance is a whole other issue. So, I have no interest in locking myself into a bigger hole in the water in which money is poured…  I’ll stick to a smaller hole. BTW, wanna sell your Lowes?  ;-) — SaltyWaders "Old eyes can see salt flies…"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, What kind of small boats do you fly fish out of and tell me about how they are equipped. Where do you use them? I am using a 10′ Valco pram and a 14′ Lowe Jon boat myself. Bill Kiene

Response:

Hi All, What kind of small boats do you fly fish out of and tell me about how they are equipped. Where do you use them? I am using a 10′ Valco pram and a 14′ Lowe Jon boat myself. Bill Kiene

My main bass boat is a 12′ Bass Tracker, actually is is just a shrunk down version of the big bass boats. (this is my big river boat) It has everything they do, ie: bow mount electric motor, live well, rod storage, pedestal seats, nav lites and bilge pump, and powered by a dependable Mercury 6. I love it as it is easy to launch for one little old fart, and very stable, which keeps the old fart in the boat. Then there is the 6′ inflateable pontoon boat with oars, and last but certainly not least is my TU "belly boat", which is not round but has a pointy end. This is my serious floating for smallies boat, and works wonderfully well in small rivers. Last 2 years it has floated me over some moderately tame rapids in the Rappahannock river. Frank (popeye the sailorman) Church

Response:

12`  olive drab John boat. The bottom was camouflaged by laying maple leaves oak leaves on it and spray painting around them with black rustoleum 16/6 pontoon boat equipped with twin minn kota Neptune motors (For when wife is along) — Fly Fisherman With a Furless Naked Cat named Dub.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Bill I have a Coleman Caddis for still waters and a south fork skiff for drifting.  I fish mostly around my home in sw montana, but I lived in Truckee, Ca for many years.  Used the caddis mostly on Martis and Milton reservoirs.  BTW how is Milton these days? Joe Hi All, What kind of small boats do you fly fish out of and tell me about how they are equipped. Where do you use them? I am using a 10′ Valco pram and a 14′ Lowe Jon boat myself. Bill Kiene

Hi.  I have a 10ft OUTCAST PAC-1000 pontoon boat (for sale).  But prefer my Don Hill 10ft mini-drift boat.  I can do most things with it I can with the pontoon boat, more stable,  stay drier, and easier to just throw the gear in the boat and shove off.  Main fishing hole is PASS LAKE in WA state. GL Greg

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Hi Bill I have a Coleman Caddis for still waters and a south fork skiff for drifting.  I fish mostly around my home in sw montana, but I lived in Truckee, Ca for many years.  Used the caddis mostly on Martis and Milton reservoirs.  BTW how is Milton these days? Joe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, What kind of small boats do you fly fish out of and tell me about how they are equipped. Where do you use them? I am using a 10′ Valco pram and a 14′ Lowe Jon boat myself. Bill Kiene

Response:

Hi All, What kind of small boats do you fly fish out of and tell me about how they are equipped. Where do you use them? I am using a 10′ Valco pram and a 14′ Lowe Jon boat myself. Bill Kiene

Mad River 16′ Explorer canoe rigged with bow and stern anchors. Would like to get one of those little pontoon kickboats one of these days. They look like they’d be a gas. G.Cleveland

Response:

Hi All, What kind of small boats do you fly fish out of and tell me about how they are equipped. Where do you use them? I am using a 10′ Valco pram and a 14′ Lowe Jon boat myself. Bill Kiene

26′ Almar Sounder, 225 Mercury Optimax, 25 Mercury 4-stroke kicker… electronic goodies such as radar, gps, 2 sounders, vhs).  use it for fishing offshore salmon, bottomfish and halibut. www.fly-fishing-neahbay.com/boatequipment.html 18′ Valco Bayrunner set up with oarlocks…. use it for fishing hood canal for sea-run cutthroat. oh crap, you said small boats <G chris

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Question:

In other words, if you’ve made the moral decision to use a nymph, you might as well use all the weight you need to get it where it needs to be.

"the moral decision to use a nymph"??? I always considered it a tactical decision. What is the morality involved here?  Should we get Dr. Laura involved? George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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"the moral decision to use a nymph"??? I always considered it a tactical decision. What is the morality involved here?  Should we get Dr. Laura involved?

Hold on, Forty should be here momentarily… Kevin

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In other words, if you’ve made the moral decision to use a nymph, you might as well use all the weight you need to get it where it needs to be. "the moral decision to use a nymph"??? I always considered it a tactical decision. What is the morality involved here?  Should we get Dr. Laura involved?

Oh fer cryin’ out loud George, why don’t you tip your nymph with a piece of corn while you’re at it?

Response:

… So the question is: do you or don’t you tie/use weighted nymphs? I’d just as soon toss in a stick of dynamite or a gallon of Clorox as to use a fucking nymph, weighted or unweighted.

That is a red herring.  Is the dynamite weighted or unweighted?

Response:

If it were me Danl, the answer is no.  You will catch fish if you weight your nymphs but what will you use, lead?  Not necessary.  You can use Zinc or copper if you want but there is a downside.  Your nymphs won’t flow along with the current drag free.  This is where 99% of all nymph fishermen mess up.  Trout are selective under water just as much as they are when coming to dry flies.  Drag free drifts is paramount if you’re going to be a savvy and serious nymph fisherman.  It’s difficult enough as it is and those who need to use bobbers while fly fishing is testimony to that fact.   Lead in a size #22 nymph isn’t going to do you any more good than weight inside a size 14 nymph or wet fly.  What you want to always maintain is a natural drift without lead and use nymphs as sparsely dressed as possible.  This is one of the reasons I make my own hand tied leaders because I would rather have weight on the knots above the main tippet and I use as much as is necessary to get the knot where the tippet is attached to the taper section, not the nymph itself.  I use a minimum of 24 inches of nymphing tippet material between the fly and the first knot.  If the weight (I use soft copper wire or zinc) for weight, if needed) and I use Xink on all my nymphs which will put my nymphs right along the same level as my tippet will be.  If your nymph is tumbling and turning and flowing along as naturally as possible, the amount of takes you’re going to get will triple compared to anyone who uses weight dragging nymphs. There is a zone of a foot or less right on the bottom of all rivers that is current free.  This is where resting fish lay as they watch food go drifting by.  As a dry fly rising fish will rise out of the current to take a fly on the surface, nymphing fish often rise from the very bottom to take a nymph passing by in the current.  You do not want your nymph ticking along the bottom as most profess you should be doing.  You want only the first weighted knot to be ticking along the bottom (every once in a while) and not the hook.  The fish that are caught with weighted nymphs are mostly force fed.  What I mean by this is the angler happens to be lucky enough to hit the fish almost right in the face.   I want to catch trout that are actively feeding on nymphs flowing along with the current because these are the fish that will swing left or right a foot or two.  There are feeding stations under water just as there are on the surface for dry fly fishermen. There is a lot more to this than what I have time to write here now, but to answer your question, you don’t need weighted flies as much as you do need more "Drag Free" drifts. George Gehrke Nymphomaniac Fly Fisherman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Owing to the fact the I lost most of my collection of PT nymphs (to a group of rapscallionous willows, aided and abetted by an army of cattails on steroids and a navy of submerged logs) a couple of weeks ago on the Owens, I need to replenish my supply. At least that’s my excuse for spending hours at the tying bench, busily not doing other chores. So the question is: do you or don’t you tie/use weighted nymphs? Danl That’s the best straight line I can serve up tonight…….

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I generally use weighted nymphs, but I prefer to use bead-heads, when practical, to weight them. Bead-head pheasnat tail nymphs are one of my most productive flies.

Mostly because of the "Apex Flash" on the round globe of the bead, not because of the extra weight which is mostly mute in its ability to influence a fishes’ attention Tim. George Gehrke Nymph maniac Fly Fisherman

Response:

I’d just as soon toss in a stick of dynamite or a gallon of Clorox as to use a fucking nymph, weighted or unweighted. — Ken Fortenberry

Okay?!  So why do you say and feel like this about nymph fishing Ken?   George Gehrke "interested"

Response:

… So the question is: do you or don’t you tie/use weighted nymphs? I’d just as soon toss in a stick of dynamite or a gallon of Clorox as to use a fucking nymph, weighted or unweighted. That is a red herring.  Is the dynamite weighted or unweighted?

that, will you please? jesus! my sides hurt . . .

Response:

Seems to me that it really depends on the water you’re fishing. Clearly, an unweighted nymph casts better and makes more elegant presentations,  and a heavy nymph is pretty ugly in the air, but if the water is fast and deep it’s hard to get an unweighted fly down near the bottom. I suppose one solution would be to use a sinking line, but in the small streams that I usually fish I’ve never been able to see much value in using it. And I don’t like having to carry a floating line for dries and a sinking line for nymphs. In other words, if you’ve made the moral decision to use a nymph, you might as well use all the weight you need to get it where it needs to be. — Bob Patton

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Owing to the fact the I lost most of my collection of PT nymphs (to a group of rapscallionous willows, aided and abetted by an army of cattails on steroids and a navy of submerged logs) a couple of weeks ago on the Owens, I need to replenish my supply. At least that’s my excuse for spending hours at the tying bench, busily not doing other chores. So the question is: do you or don’t you tie/use weighted nymphs? Danl That’s the best straight line I can serve up tonight…….

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… So the question is: do you or don’t you tie/use weighted nymphs? I’d just as soon toss in a stick of dynamite or a gallon of Clorox as to use a fucking nymph, weighted or unweighted.

personally, i like fucking nymphs…… but what the hell ken, whatever floats yer boat <g –waldo

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I like to use a heavily weighted Copper John along with an unweighted nymph, or maybe two. The Copper John takes the place of splitshot, but has fish-catching capability. I still haven’t figured out whether it’s better to put the weighted fly on the top or the bottom. Any opinions on that? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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personally, i like fucking nymphs…… but what the hell ken, whatever floats yer boat <g

Past tense, right Walt ? — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

… So the question is: do you or don’t you tie/use weighted nymphs? I’d just as soon toss in a stick of dynamite or a gallon of Clorox as to use a fucking nymph, weighted or unweighted. personally, i like fucking nymphs……

Weighted or unweighted?

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Ken Fortenberry wrote… I’d just as soon toss in a stick of dynamite or a gallon of Clorox as to use a fucking nymph, weighted or unweighted.

Oh you dry fly snob! Joel Axelrad **DFD**

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well, if there is really nothing doing on dries, and I can’t spark some action with soft-hackles, sure, I have some weighted nymphs in my boxes. Mostly I’ll go with bead-heads or in some places weighted stone-fly nymphs. I don’t much like casting heavy flies, nor flies with split-shot, but I’ll do what it takes.  I tend to fish places where I can get by just fine without resorting to heavy stuff. Eugene – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Owing to the fact the I lost most of my collection of PT nymphs (to a group of rapscallionous willows, aided and abetted by an army of cattails on steroids and a navy of submerged logs) a couple of weeks ago on the Owens, I need to replenish my supply. At least that’s my excuse for spending hours at the tying bench, busily not doing other chores. So the question is: do you or don’t you tie/use weighted nymphs? I seldom weight nymphs and I just don’t like the way beadheads look. (I know they catch fish but……) I prefer weight on the leader to weight on the fly in most situations. The only nymphs that I consistant tie with weight are large stoneflies. Willi

Response:

I still haven’t figured out whether it’s better to put the weighted fly on the top or the bottom. Any opinions on that?

I think the unweighted fly "swims" better, more naturally, if it’s on the bottom.  The weighted fly serves the same function as a split shot, but lets the other fly drift more or less freely. JR

Response:

I still haven’t figured out whether it’s better to put the weighted fly on the top or the bottom. Any opinions on that?

I put the weighted fly on top with the unweighted fly on the bottom (point). Just seems to be a logical arrangement, and I have had  success using it. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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Owing to the fact the I lost most of my collection of PT nymphs (to a group of rapscallionous willows, aided and abetted by an army of cattails on steroids and a navy of submerged logs) a couple of weeks ago on the Owens, I need to replenish my supply. At least that’s my excuse for spending hours at the tying bench, busily not doing other chores. So the question is: do you or don’t you tie/use weighted nymphs?

I seldom weight nymphs and I just don’t like the way beadheads look. (I know they catch fish but……) I prefer weight on the leader to weight on the fly in most situations. The only nymphs that I consistant tie with weight are large stoneflies. Willi

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… So the question is: do you or don’t you tie/use weighted nymphs? I’d just as soon toss in a stick of dynamite or a gallon of Clorox as to use a fucking nymph, weighted or unweighted.

I would certainly prefer to use dries all the time, but western tailwaters generally require small(sz 20-26) midge larva patterns.  Over the past few years I would guess that I use nymphs nearly 85% of the time.  This includes dropping a nymph from a dry or using a two nymph rig.     Regarding the use of weighed nymphs.  I have started to stay away from weighted nymphs.  I prefer to use weight directly on the tippet, generally 12 to 18 inches above the point fly.  A tailwater guide in Colorado recently pointed out how weighted nymphs simply don’t float naturally through the water column and he always uses unweighted nymphs.   He also pointed out how BH patterns generally don’t look realistic and more often than not many BH(bead heads) are too big for the hook size.   Especially when dealing with sz 24 midge patterns! For weight, I use that green coated stuff from England.  Can’t think of the name right now…. — remove all x’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

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    I do indeed tie weighted nymphs.  I use a red thread head on my weighted ones to indicate the difference from non-weighted.  I find arsenic-core lead solder to be a good weighting material as I don’t even have to use a priest, not that I ever would.  I do like the feel of those apache or golden trout flopping around in the creel, so some times I use the unweighted flies with the black-thread or beadheads.     By the way, for all those folk looking for a replacement for Gink, got an old transformer sitting out in the back yard and the liquid in that is great.  Keeps a fly floating forever.  I can ship a quart or two to anyone that needs it.  Might not want to hold your floatant bottle in your teeth, though.     Oh, by the way, for all you pissy C&R folks, I do practice it.  I got a latch on the bottom of the creel that lets me empty that sucker real quick if I see a ranger.  All he’ll find in there is a digital camera and an invite to the Elks Club Fly Tie. Danl,    I’ve gotten away from lead wire sinking nymphs and have found the ease of use of bead heads.  If I need to sink a nymph without a bead, I have found that the split-shot works great. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

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… So the question is: do you or don’t you tie/use weighted nymphs?

I’d just as soon toss in a stick of dynamite or a gallon of Clorox as to use a fucking nymph, weighted or unweighted. — Ken Fortenberry

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So the question is: do you or don’t you tie/use weighted nymphs? That’s the best straight line I can serve up tonight…….

Keeps the ball rolling anyway. The only weight I’ll add to a PT is a copper beadhead,  a small one (3/32" for #14, 5/64" for #16, nothing on smaller sizes).  I like a slim silhouette on PTs and think wrapping weight on the shank ruins that.   The flies I most often weight (other than winter steelhead flies) are woolly buggers.  I’ll also weight Prince and stonefly nymphs, which I frequently fish together with a smaller unweighted fly on a dropper. JR

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8< . So the question is: do you or don’t you tie/use weighted nymphs?

yes. –waldo

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I generally use weighted nymphs, but I prefer to use bead-heads, when practical, to weight them. Bead-head pheasnat tail nymphs are one of my most productive flies. Tim Lysyk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Owing to the fact the I lost most of my collection of PT nymphs (to a group of rapscallionous willows, aided and abetted by an army of cattails on steroids and a navy of submerged logs) a couple of weeks ago on the Owens, I need to replenish my supply. At least that’s my excuse for spending hours at the tying bench, busily not doing other chores. So the question is: do you or don’t you tie/use weighted nymphs? Danl That’s the best straight line I can serve up tonight…….

Response:

Owing to the fact the I lost most of my collection of PT nymphs (to a group of rapscallionous willows, aided and abetted by an army of cattails on steroids and a navy of submerged logs) a couple of weeks ago on the Owens, I need to replenish my supply. At least that’s my excuse for spending hours at the tying bench, busily not doing other chores. So the question is: do you or don’t you tie/use weighted nymphs? Danl That’s the best straight line I can serve up tonight…….

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Question:

This would imply to me that regulations that were not readily enforceable, would still be followed by the majority of anglers. I would personally like to see "regulations" of this type used to reduce over crowding.

Yep. As long as the "regulations" don’t get too onerous, I think most flyfishers would follow them on an honor system. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’ve been fishing for forty five years. During my childhood and teens, I fished throughout the Midwest and Canada.  For the last 25 years, I’ve lived in Colorado and have fished most of the Rocky Mt.. area. I’ve only been asked to show my fishing license twice in my whole live. I’ve never had an officer ask to see what fish I had kept or see if my fly was barbless in barbless water or ……. Either I’m the luckiest guy in the world or there are extremely few DOW officers around that are enforcing regulations. On the other hand, I’ve only seen a few people fishing or keeping fish in violation of regulations. It seems that our regulations are personally enforced or enforced by the presence of other anglers. My experience is that the vast majority of anglers follow regulations even without the threat of enforcement from the legal system. This would imply to me that regulations that were not readily enforceable, would still be followed by the majority of anglers. I would personally like to see "regulations" of this type used to reduce over crowding.

I’ll concur.  In approx 26 years of fishing I’ve only been checked twice.  Actually, come to think of it, I need to take out some of those years since I was too young to need a license (sheesh, drops that number to 13 years).  Anyway, neither here nor there.  Personally I’ve seen a LOT of anglers who don’t follow regulations, but it’s almost exclusively been on the put-n-take waters and sorry to say it, but it’s almost always been those fishing with bait and filling freezers. I think unenforceable regulations are followed in direct proportion to how much people believe in the rationale behind the regulation and the chances of them getting caught.  Don’t see this being of much use for overcrowding. Just throwing something out here, but has anyone thought about maybe making multiple access points to popular waters?  I’ve never fished ANY moving water where I’ve felt even remotely crowded so I’m just guessing here.  Is there limited access?  Just me, but I can’t see why anyone would purposely fish as close together as some of you seem to imply. Just curious,      - Ken — ET1 – Evil Twin #1 "Guilt replaced the fun" – ROFF-Tim "Ethical conduct is purely a personal thing, and the only  arbiter of personal ethics is your own conscience."  - Mike Connor

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  I would tend to believe that most _fishermen_ would follow the rules. This would imply to me that regulations that were not readily enforceable, would still be followed by the majority of anglers. I would personally like to see "regulations" of this type used to reduce over crowding. Yep. As long as the "regulations" don’t get too onerous, I think most flyfishers would follow them on an honor system.

Harry Mason www.Troutflies.com

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This would imply to me that regulations that were not readily enforceable, would still be followed by the majority of anglers. I would personally like to see "regulations" of this type used to reduce over crowding. Yep. As long as the "regulations" don’t get too onerous, I think most flyfishers would follow them on an honor system.

Well, what’s so onerous about "use some common sense, please?"  You’re too trusting, I fear.  The true sportspersons will act properly, and don’t need laws/regs, but mere suggestions and education, but the bozos will act like bozos, and the laws/regs are needed to keep them from destroying everything, even if through sheer ignorance rather than maliciousness or greed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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While completely nekkid, William Loehman/Susan Schwarz Either I’m the luckiest guy in the world or there are extremely few DOW officers around that are enforcing regulations.

It’s probably the latter. The DOW’s enforcement people are called District Wildlife Managers. Technically, they’re peace officers[1] and are required to be certified as same, but they typically spend less than 30% of their rime on law enforcement. The other 70%-plus is spent on other wildlife management tasks. [1] Under the criminal code, they’re Peace Officers, Level II. That’s the same level as agents of other regulatory agencies like Gaming, Alcohol, Parole, Corrections, etc. That means that they’re not allowed to carry concealed weapons when they’re not on duty. "They conferred, as against the Government, the right to be let alone — the most comprehensive of rights…" -Justice Louis Brandeis

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – District Wildlife Managers. Technically, they’re peace officers[1] and are required to be certified as same, but they typically spend less than 30% of their rime on law enforcement. The other 70%-plus is spent on other wildlife management tasks. [1] Under the criminal code, they’re Peace Officers, Level II. That’s the same level as agents of other regulatory agencies like Gaming, Alcohol, Parole, Corrections, etc. That means that they’re not allowed to carry concealed weapons when they’re not on duty. "They conferred, as against the Government, the right to be let alone — the most comprehensive of rights…" -Justice Louis Brandeis

You must live in a strange part of Texas…Maybe we should have not given so much of the state away. Around here they are called game wardens and even the Texas Rangers are jealous of the power of a game warden. There is not a law enforcement officer in the state with more power. Unfortunately, very few game theives spend many years in prison even when caught. Their fines are seldom over the cost of a house, and few even have their pickups consficated as they should be. Big Dale – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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You must live in a strange part of Texas…

I’m not in any part of Texas.  I couldn’t have been that bad in my previous life. Maybe we should have not given so much of the state away. Around here they are called game wardens and even the Texas Rangers are jealous of the power of a game warden. There is not a law enforcement officer in the state with more power.

They’ve got a fair bit of power here. More than I’ve got, and I’m a real live Peace Officer, Level I just like the city cops and CSP and CBI. The only difference is that I make less, can’t enter private property without PC, warrant, or exigency, and I get to wear my gun home at night if I feel like it. Unfortunately, very few game theives spend many years in prison even when caught. Their fines are seldom over the cost of a house, and few even have their pickups consficated as they should be.

It gets worse. There was a waterfowl-poaching case that the USFWS took a few years ago. The plea agreement was for forfeiture of all firearms and vehicles used, plus five digits in fines and a few months in prison. Even the defense bought it. Then the judge knocked the fines down to three digits, wiped out half of the forfeitures, and suspended the sentence. It’s good to know that damage to our common resources is taken seriously by the Federal district judges. (This was a judge in TX, but I’m not sure which district, etc.) "They conferred, as against the Government, the right to be let alone — the most comprehensive of rights…" -Justice Louis Brandeis

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–                                                       -dnc- ET1 wrote …  Personally I’ve seen a LOT of anglers who don’t follow regulations, but it’s almost exclusively been on the put-n-take waters and sorry to say it, but it’s almost always been those fishing with bait and filling freezers.

That’s consistent with what I’ve seen over the years too.  Most poaching I’ve witnessed was in areas where people already had the legal right to take a hefty number of fish. Hmmm.  I wonder how the poached dead fish statistics compare to number of released fish killed? I think unenforceable regulations are followed in direct proportion to how much people believe in the rationale behind the regulation and the chances of them getting caught.  Don’t see this being of much use for overcrowding. Just throwing something out here, but has anyone thought about maybe making multiple access points to popular waters?  I’ve never fished ANY moving water where I’ve felt even remotely crowded so I’m just guessing here.  Is there limited access?  Just me, but I can’t see why anyone would purposely fish as close together as some of you seem to imply.

I don’t like the idea of increasing access.  While I think all public lands should be open to everyone, remoteness still has a value in protecting some resources from overuse.

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and vehicles used, plus five digits in fines and a few months in prison. Even the defense bought it. Then the judge knocked the fines down to three digits, wiped out half of the forfeitures, and suspended the sentence.

Sounds like the plea agreement was on the right track, except I think there must have been a typo as it came out a few months in prison when it should have been a few years. Then the judge went and screwed it up. Big Dale

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Just throwing something out here, but has anyone thought about maybe making multiple access points to popular waters?  I’ve never fished ANY moving water where I’ve felt even remotely crowded so I’m just guessing here.  Is there limited access?  Just me, but I can’t see why anyone would purposely fish as close together as some of you seem to imply. I don’t like the idea of increasing access.  While I think all public lands should be open to everyone, remoteness still has a value in protecting some resources from overuse.

I’m mostly just curious.  I’ve never fished moving water where I felt crowded.  If there are more people fishing than I felt comfortable with, I just start walking.  Just for my own understanding I’d like to know why the horror stories exist.  If some people don’t mind fishing in a crowd that’s fine by me, but I’ve never had trouble finding a remote spot within a reasonable walking distance. Later,      - Ken — ET1 – Evil Twin #1 "Guilt replaced the fun" – ROFF-Tim "Ethical conduct is purely a personal thing, and the only  arbiter of personal ethics is your own conscience."  - Mike Connor

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I’m mostly just curious.  I’ve never fished moving water where I felt crowded.  If there are more people fishing than I felt comfortable with, I just start walking.  Just for my own understanding I’d like to know why the horror stories exist.  If some people don’t mind fishing in a crowd that’s fine by me, but I’ve never had trouble finding a remote spot within a reasonable walking distance.

Here in Wisconsin there are very few places left more than a mile from the nearest road.  The vast majority of the land here is considerably less.  Each fishing season northern Illinois (which includes Chicago for the geographically challenged) and eastern Minnesota (Minneapolis, St Paul) disgorge their teeming millions upon our fair waters.. Lots of other folks come from all over the place.    I dare say there are few places in America that get pounded as hard as our fair state.  Naturally, this results in some very crowded conditions in some places.  But despite all this, I have never had any trouble finding a place to fish in solitude when I wanted to.  I think the trouble some people have with this one Ken is that they haven’t mastered the rules for finding out of the way spots, and so: 1.  Find out where everybody goes. 2.  Go someplace else.                                      

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Let’s look at it another way.. is there anything inherently wrong with unenforceable regulations?

Inherently wrong? Of course there is. If there is not a reasonable degree of enforcement the laws will be ignored. You are talking about a law that would require an observer (or team of observers) to watch you fish all day and count your catch, as opposed to a policeman seeing you run a stop sign. — Charlie…

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George Adams wrote Count me among those who are likely to puke if one more unenforcable, or unenforced, law is passed.

I propose an law whereby it’s illegal to puke. <g —                                                       -dnc-

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I do agree that most people do behave responsibly.. but for those who want to be responsible C&R’ers, what do they have to go on?  Shouldn’t there be some guidelines at least?

I don’t have a problem with published guidelines, but passing laws that you know can’t be enforced simply to establish those guidelines is worse than just wrong. — Charlie…

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Let’s look at it another way.. is there anything inherently wrong with unenforceable regulations? One parallel is traffic laws.. so why do traffic laws work?  The potential of catching stop sign runners is so extremely low, but most people stop.  So then.. is it the threat of enforcement, or is it because we all realize it would be chaos if we didn’t follow the rules? I’ve said this before, but aside from the most popular fishing spots, take limits are also pretty unenforceable.  There are just too few fish & game officers to make the threat of being caught real.  Yet, it seems most people do follow the rules. Take limits are enforceable regulations, he is talking about implementing unenforceable ones. — Charlie…

– Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad mp3 songs: http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad

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I do agree that most people do behave responsibly.. but for those who want to be responsible C&R’ers, what do they have to go on?  Shouldn’t there be some guidelines at least? -Mark But I think we’ve already shown that we cannot be trusted to self-police. That’s why we need take limits. Who is this we and where have you shown yourselves to be irresponsible with respect to fishing? BTW, count me among the people who believe that regulations do not need to be enforceable to be respected by the majority. The majority who don’t behave responsibly unless they are told to? — Charlie…

– Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad mp3 songs: http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad

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I was fishing a week ago and was checked twice.  When the fist warden came through, he checked my licence out and we talked for a minute or two about the area and what DNR is doing.  He then walked over to where two other fisherman were fishing about 50-60 yards away.  It didn’t take much time for the warden to pull out his pad and start writing something on a piece of paper.  The warden handed the paper to the two fisherman and then the fisherman left.  These two fisherman were sitting there the entire time that the warden and I were talking and could have easily seen the game warden and left, but they didn’t.  I don’t know what makes some people so stupid. A third group of people moved in fairly close to where I was throwing the fly.  In fact, they were too close for my liking.  I was just about ready walkaway when the  second game warden came through.  The warden checked out my licence and we had a short talk about the area.  He then went to the other group of people.  I was close enough to hear the warden ask for their licence and then tell them, "you need a licence to fish."  Obviously, they didn’t have a licence.  The warden gave them a warning and walked away.  He didn’t even ask them to stop fishing. When I walked back to my car at the end of the day, passing the original spot, these fisherman were still fishing.  It was hard for me to understand why the warden wouldn’t make these creeps stop fishing. Earlier in the year, I saw a group of people collecting, I will not say fishing, fish with a cast net. They had several buckets with about 40 fish in them.  I was so upset, I went to a park ranger and they did nothing.  This was a put-and-take area.  I then called the DNR and they set out to check on the poachers.  The poachers were gone when they arrived.  DNR told me that they could nothing unless the offenders could be caught.  They also told me that the park ranger should have stopped and cited the poachers.  They also told me that this problem with the park rangers in not uncommon in this area.  The park rangers want to concentrate on people management not wildlife management.  I’m still upset about that situation. — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Before you buy.

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The majority who don’t behave responsibly unless they are told to? — Charlie… I personally have no idea what an appropriate take limit should be for specific fish in a specific area.  I don’t think that the average fisherman does either.  I need to know what the limit is in order to behave responsibly.  Making it a law gives the authorities a means of punishing those that are grossly irresponsible.

Take limits are enforceable regulations, he is talking about implementing unenforceable ones. — Charlie…

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 ……. Either I’m the luckiest guy in the world or there are extremely few DOW officers around that are enforcing regulations.

I have only been checked once in my (considerably shorter) life, but I think that it is safe to say that it is cheaper to fish without a license all the time and pay the fines when you get checked than to buy a license every year. The time I got checked I was following all fishing regulations, but I had to hide my beer in a hurry, since I was only 16 at the time. — Levi Life is anything that dies when you stomp on it.                                                         — Dave Barry

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The majority who don’t behave responsibly unless they are told to? — Charlie…

I personally have no idea what an appropriate take limit should be for specific fish in a specific area.  I don’t think that the average fisherman does either.  I need to know what the limit is in order to behave responsibly.  Making it a law gives the authorities a means of punishing those that are grossly irresponsible. — Levi Life is anything that dies when you stomp on it.                                                         — Dave Barry

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BTW, count me among the people who believe that regulations do not need to be enforceable to be respected by the majority.

Count me among those who are likely to puke if one more unenforcable, or unenforced, law is passed. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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But I think we’ve already shown that we cannot be trusted to self-police. That’s why we need take limits.

Who is this we and where have you shown yourselves to be irresponsible with respect to fishing? BTW, count me among the people who believe that regulations do not need to be enforceable to be respected by the majority.

The majority who don’t behave responsibly unless they are told to? — Charlie…

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But I think we’ve already shown that we cannot be trusted to self-police. That’s why we need take limits. BTW, count me among the people who believe that regulations do not need to be enforceable to be respected by the majority. Well, what’s so onerous about "use some common sense, please?"  You’re too trusting, I fear.  The true sportspersons will act properly, and don’t need laws/regs, but mere suggestions and education, but the bozos will act like bozos, and the laws/regs are needed to keep them from destroying everything, even if through sheer ignorance rather than maliciousness or greed. —

–  Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio  http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad  mp3 songs:  http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad

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Naturally, this results in some very crowded conditions in some places.  But despite all this, I have never had any trouble finding a place to fish in solitude when I wanted to.  I think the trouble some people have with this one Ken is that they haven’t mastered the rules for finding out of the way spots, and so: 1.  Find out where everybody goes. 2.  Go someplace else.                                      

That’s not the problem I have with over crowding. Especially on streams and rivers, I just think that the extreme over crowding that happens in our "famous" waters, is very disrespectful and harmful to the resource and shouldn’t be allowed. I’m no different than you. I find places that others don’t fish. I fished for Wisconsin stream trout for the first time last Fall and found a place where I didn’t come across any other anglers in full day of fishing. Very nice! Willi

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I’ve been fishing for forty five years. During my childhood and teens, I fished throughout the Midwest and Canada.  For the last 25 years, I’ve lived in Colorado and have fished most of the Rocky Mt.. area. I’ve only been asked to show my fishing license twice in my whole live. I’ve never had an officer ask to see what fish I had kept or see if my fly was barbless in barbless water or ……. Either I’m the luckiest guy in the world or there are extremely few DOW officers around that are enforcing regulations. On the other hand, I’ve only seen a few people fishing or keeping fish in violation of regulations. It seems that our regulations are personally enforced or enforced by the presence of other anglers. My experience is that the vast majority of anglers follow regulations even without the threat of enforcement from the legal system. This would imply to me that regulations that were not readily enforceable, would still be followed by the majority of anglers. I would personally like to see "regulations" of this type used to reduce over crowding. Willi

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Question:

Dear Jim, Welcome to the group. I wish I had any advice for you, alas, all I can offer are cyber-hugs and the belief that someone else here will have some useful information. This is a great group, they’ve all helped me a lot! Alex

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hello, I’m new to  this group,,actuall this is my first post to any news group although I am in a couple of e-mail list servers for my own major addiction (which is fly fishing),, I am a 42 year old male and have been having problems with migraines at least as far back as first grade (a long,long time) it seems that whenever I go to a doctor about my headaches I get treated like some kind of drug addict and I’m only trying to get otherwise illegal drugs from them,,the nuerologist at the Mayo clinic after trying me on every migraine prophilactic medication he knew of called my headaches "intractable" and wanted me to go to their "pain management sessions"where from what my younger sister (who went through the program)they teach you how "to pretend you don’t hurt",, mental tricks that anyone who has put up with severe headaches for over 35 years knows by instinct or they would have put a bullet through their head a long time ago,,,I use to get some relief using 400 to 800 mg Ibuprofen,,,but did that so often and for so long that I now have an active ulcer ,, so I can not use any of the anti-inflamitory meds,,,and with my headaches happening at a rate of 3 to 6 days a week now my PCP has even stopped prescribing any of the triptains(which only worked for about 50% of my headaches anyway) and has put a note into my chart sayingt that NO narcotic meds were to be administered in the ER anymore either,, so I am without any medical help at all right now,,when I last was at the clinic I was told if I can’t take care of my headaches with extra strength Tylenol that they couldn’t help me,, sorry to be rambling so,, Jim Peterson aka Bear

Jim, It’s time to go "doctor shopping" in your area. You have the absolute right to have "effective" medications prescribed to you for your condition. Your story makes me furious! Others here may have some suggestions, but when all else fails, you can call a pharmacist and merely ask if he/she knows a local doctor who is "liberal" with pain medications. Good Luck, RxMan

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hello, I’m new to  this group,,actuall this is my first post to any news group although I am in a couple of e-mail list servers for my own major addiction (which is fly fishing),, I am a 42 year old male and have been having problems with migraines at least as far back as first grade (a long,long time) it seems that whenever I go to a doctor about my headaches I get treated like some kind of drug addict and I’m only trying to get otherwise illegal drugs from them,,the nuerologist at the Mayo clinic after trying me on every migraine prophilactic medication he knew of called my headaches "intractable" and wanted me to go to their "pain management sessions"where from what my younger sister (who went through the program)they teach you how "to pretend you don’t hurt",, mental tricks that anyone who has put up with severe headaches for over 35 years knows by instinct or they would have put a bullet through their head a long time ago,,,I use to get some relief using 400 to 800 mg Ibuprofen,,,but did that so often and for so long that I now have an active ulcer ,, so I can not use any of the anti-inflamitory meds,,,and with my headaches happening at a rate of 3 to 6 days a week now my PCP has even stopped prescribing any of the triptains(which only worked for about 50% of my headaches anyway) and has put a note into my chart sayingt that NO narcotic meds were to be administered in the ER anymore either,, so I am without any medical help at all right now,,when I last was at the clinic I was told if I can’t take care of my headaches with extra strength Tylenol that they couldn’t help me,, sorry to be rambling so,, Jim Peterson aka Bear

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Welcome to the group Jim.  I felt so bad when I read your post.  I know it doesn’t help much but many of us have been in your situation before.  I myself was just a few months ago.  I was finally referred to a pain clinic that teaches all sorts of coping along with using medication to control my pain. They also have me in physical therapy and counseling.  I’ve been going 8 hours every Wed.   I had no idea a place like that was out there until I kept switching doctor and finally found one that referred me to this place.  Don’t give up!  There has got to be a place out there for you.  I know how discouraged you must be and so do many of us.  Please feel free to rant and rave and vent here as much as you need if it helps.  Be careful with lots of OTC meds, it may be your only relief although minimal, but it can lead to lots of problems at high dosages and some have found it to cause rebounds. Take care I sure hope you’re feeling OK today anyway. Stephanie in OR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -hello, I’m new to  this group,,actuall this is my first post to any news group although I am in a couple of e-mail list servers for my own major addiction (which is fly fishing),, I am a 42 year old male and have been having problems with migraines at least as far back as first grade (a long,long time) it seems that whenever I go to a doctor about my headaches I get treated like some kind of drug addict and I’m only trying to get otherwise illegal drugs from them,,the nuerologist at the Mayo clinic after trying me on every migraine prophilactic medication he knew of called my headaches "intractable" and wanted me to go to their "pain management sessions"where from what my younger sister (who went through the program)they teach you how "to pretend you don’t hurt",, mental tricks that anyone who has put up with severe headaches for over 35 years knows by instinct or they would have put a bullet through their head a long time ago,,,I use to get some relief using 400 to 800 mg Ibuprofen,,,but did that so often and for so long that I now have an active ulcer ,, so I can not use any of the anti-inflamitory meds,,,and with my headaches happening at a rate of 3 to 6 days a week now my PCP has even stopped prescribing any of the triptains(which only worked for about 50% of my headaches anyway) and has put a note into my chart sayingt that NO narcotic meds were to be administered in the ER anymore either,, so I am without any medical help at all right now,,when I last was at the clinic I was told if I can’t take care of my headaches with extra strength Tylenol that they couldn’t help me,, sorry to be rambling so,, Jim Peterson aka Bear

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Jim, Welcome!  You have my sympathies.  What a tough situation…I can’t even imagine. I’m sure that someone in the group can help you.  Good luck. Dawn

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I can really relate…..(As I posted earlier) I was just told this week that my PCP will no longer give me pain meds and that I need to "tough" out my migraines.  To me, that is unacceptable.  Doctor shopping is hard…to date, I have now seen 15 doctors (in 8 years)- all referring me on to another, but I think it’s well worth it when the right one is found. I really just want to welcome you to the ng…and hopefully give you some of the support it’s given me. -Erin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hello, I’m new to  this group,,actuall this is my first post to any news group although I am in a couple of e-mail list servers for my own major addiction (which is fly fishing),, I am a 42 year old male and have been having problems with migraines at least as far back as first grade (a long,long time) it seems that whenever I go to a doctor about my headaches I get treated like some kind of drug addict and I’m only trying to get otherwise illegal drugs from them,,the nuerologist at the Mayo clinic after trying me on every migraine prophilactic medication he knew of called my headaches "intractable" and wanted me to go to their "pain management sessions"where from what my younger sister (who went through the program)they teach you how "to pretend you don’t hurt",, mental tricks that anyone who has put up with severe headaches for over 35 years knows by instinct or they would have put a bullet through their head a long time ago,,,I use to get some relief using 400 to 800 mg Ibuprofen,,,but did that so often and for so long that I now have an active ulcer ,, so I can not use any of the anti-inflamitory meds,,,and with my headaches happening at a rate of 3 to 6 days a week now my PCP has even stopped prescribing any of the triptains(which only worked for about 50% of my headaches anyway) and has put a note into my chart sayingt that NO narcotic meds were to be administered in the ER anymore either,, so I am without any medical help at all right now,,when I last was at the clinic I was told if I can’t take care of my headaches with extra strength Tylenol that they couldn’t help me,, sorry to be rambling so,, Jim Peterson aka Bear

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Hi Jim, Just wanted to say welcome to the group.  Sorry you’re having such a rough time right now with doctors and pain meds.  I’m not sure what to advise, but I know others will help you if they can. Take care, Fiona May yer lum aye reek wi’ other folks coal (Scottish)

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I use to say that I didn’t know anyone who I disliked bad enough to wish a migraine attack upon,, I have changed my mind in that regard,,every person in the DEA and every single doctor should have to endure one of the 3 week straight migraines that I have and a lot of you have had to live with,,and I bet a lot of things would be different for all of us.

I completely agree.   Sometimes I even think that the people who say, "Oh, you get headaches?  Headaches are nothing …. Just take some asprin"  should really experience the type of "headache" that I get – The kind that even a high dose of Demerol and a couple of Vicodin won’t kick.  Thank the gods that I finally found a migraine doc – and at Kaiser, no less!   Pain free days and nights to u all

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Dotty, Could it possibly be Dr. Neal Barnard’s book, "Foods that Fight Pain"?  Just read an article on it. Mona T.

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I think your best bet is to call the radio station and ask them. diane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone help me locate a book recently published. The author was interviewed on a New York radio station: WOR, the Joan Hamburg show. It was approx. 1-2 months ago.  I heard just the tail end of the interview but did not get the name of the book. I know that the author was male and he was able to successfully treat his migraines and hasn’t had one for two years. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks- Dotty

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Jim,     Welcome to the group.  I hate to hear of stories like yours!  It is so aggrivating!. I agree wtiht he others, it is probably time to find a new doctor.  I hope you find a good doctor very soon.   Take care, Jackie K

Jackie and everyone else , I should have known what this Dr was going to be like when I saw the certificates on the wall from the US Army,,but the Dr. that I had been going to who was pretty understanding when it came to pain had retired and this was the only Dr. I could get in to see without a 3 week advance appointment ,, others have warned about being carefull with OTC medications,,boy do I know that,, I now have an active ulcer directly caused by too many years of too much Ibuprfen,,I have asked the neurologist (again) at the Mayo Clinic (40 miles away for me) to refer me to the Pain Clinic,at Rochester Methodist Hospital,,that is where he said he was going to refer me when I last spoke with him but instead I got sent to the Pain Managment Center,, a completely different type of place, but his secretary says that he will be out of the country for the next 3 weeks,,by shorty after that I should be getting some pain relief as a follow up to the surgery I am going to be having to repair a bone spur and a torn rotator cuff in my shoulder,,,if I would have known I was going to live this long I would have taken much better care of myself,, I use to say that I didn’t know anyone who I disliked bad enough to wish a migraine attack upon,, I have changed my mind in that regard,,every person in the DEA and every single doctor should have to endure one of the 3 week straight migraines that I have and a lot of you have had to live with,,and I bet a lot of things would be different for all of us. Jim Peterson aka Bear

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I amnot sure which book you are talking about but if you go to my migraine page : http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/7379/migraine.html you can check out some books on migraine….I think there are over 50 of them. Karen Can anyone help me locate a book recently published. The author was interviewed on a New York radio station: WOR, the Joan Hamburg show. It was approx. 1-2 months ago.  I heard just the tail end of the interview but did not get the name of the book. I know that the author was male and he was able to successfully treat his migraines and hasn’t had one for two years. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks- Dotty

– You Are Not Alone http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/7379/karen.html

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Can anyone help me locate a book recently published. The author was interviewed on a New York radio station: WOR, the Joan Hamburg show. It was approx. 1-2 months ago.  I heard just the tail end of the interview but did not get the name of the book. I know that the author was male and he was able to successfully treat his migraines and hasn’t had one for two years. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks- Dotty

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Jim,      Welcome to the group.  I hate to hear of stories like yours!  It is so aggrivating!. I agree wtiht he others, it is probably time to find a new doctor.  I hope you find a good doctor very soon.   Take care, Jackie K

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s a funny thing about fly patterns, the interest in them seem cyclic. The picket pin was a popular pattern when I was just getting started as a fly fisherman back the early 50s. Then interest faded, you didn’t see on many fly lists or in many catalogs. Now its becoming more prominent again. I had an interesting experience with an other old attractor pattern a few years back. I started tying a pattern know as the house & lot variant. I first used it as a kid, It was Ike’s favorite fly, and as such was fairly well known at the time. I started tying it just as an exercise, not expecting to use it much. Well you know the rest of the story it turned out to a deadly pattern for larger brown trout, particularly at dusk. My fishing buddy and I were having a great time with this fly and to keep it secret we only referred to it as the "Ike fly" around other anglers. Well after awhile someone figured it out and for a couple of years it had a small following in this area. for what ever reason after awhile it quit producing like it did at first and interest wane. You don’t see it in many fly boxes anymore. Last year I dusted off an other old forgotten fly and it looks like its going to be another winner, at least for a while. Which leads me to ask this question: by practicing catch and release are we educating the trout? God I hope so! Here to the tough ones, the one that teach us something! I was wondering why some fly patterns seem to only have a following in specific areas of the country.  Obviously some patterns imitate forage specific to certain geographic areas, however some patterns seemingly utilized almost exclusively in the Northeast (VT, NE, Northern NY) seem impressionistic enough to work nearly anywhere.  For example the Picket Pin and ‘88′ streamer.  I haven’t had the opportunity to travel extensively to fish destinations far removed from my native central New York, however I have had good success with these patterns as far south as the Savage and Gunpowder rivers in Maryland. Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the subject. Furthermore am I missing out on any interesting local patterns from other areas of the country. Any info and/or recipes appreciated. Thanks in advance and good fishing C. Segina

   Its funny that you talk about the h & l variant as i call it because out here in Colorado it’s a very popular fly.  in fact it’s one of my favorite to tie and fish.  I didn’t know the history behind it and that’s very interesting. fly patterns are very interesting and sometimes entertaining to hear the stories behing them and the way their popularity changes over time.

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It’s a funny thing about fly patterns, the interest in them seem cyclic. The picket pin was a popular pattern when I was just getting started as a fly fisherman back the early 50s. Then interest faded, you didn’t see on many fly lists or in many catalogs. Now its becoming more prominent again. I had an interesting experience with an other old attractor pattern a few years back. I started tying a pattern know as the house & lot variant. I first used it as a kid, It was Ike’s favorite fly, and as such was fairly well known at the time. I started tying it just as an exercise, not expecting to use it much. Well you know the rest of the story it turned out to a deadly pattern for larger brown trout, particularly at dusk. My fishing buddy and I were having a great time with this fly and to keep it secret we only referred to it as the "Ike fly" around other anglers. Well after awhile someone figured it out and for a couple of years it had a small following in this area. for what ever reason after awhile it quit producing like it did at first and interest wane. You don’t see it in many fly boxes anymore. Last year I dusted off an other old forgotten fly and it looks like its going to be another winner, at least for a while. Which leads me to ask this question: by practicing catch and release are we educating the trout? God I hope so! Here to the tough ones, the one that teach us something! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was wondering why some fly patterns seem to only have a following in specific areas of the country.  Obviously some patterns imitate forage specific to certain geographic areas, however some patterns seemingly utilized almost exclusively in the Northeast (VT, NE, Northern NY) seem impressionistic enough to work nearly anywhere.  For example the Picket Pin and ‘88′ streamer.  I haven’t had the opportunity to travel extensively to fish destinations far removed from my native central New York, however I have had good success with these patterns as far south as the Savage and Gunpowder rivers in Maryland. Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the subject.  Furthermore am I missing out on any interesting local patterns from other areas of the country. Any info and/or recipes appreciated. Thanks in advance and good fishing C. Segina

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I was wondering why some fly patterns seem to only have a following in specific areas of the country.  Obviously some patterns imitate forage specific to certain geographic areas, however some patterns seemingly utilized almost exclusively in the Northeast (VT, NE, Northern NY) seem impressionistic enough to work nearly anywhere.  For example the Picket Pin and ‘88′ streamer.  I haven’t had the opportunity to travel extensively to fish destinations far removed from my native central New York, however I have had good success with these patterns as far south as the Savage and Gunpowder rivers in Maryland. Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the subject.  Furthermore am I missing out on any interesting local patterns from other areas of the country. Any info and/or recipes appreciated. Thanks in advance and good fishing C. Segina

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I was wondering why some fly patterns seem to only have a following in specific areas of the country.  Obviously some patterns imitate forage specific to certain geographic areas, however some patterns seemingly utilized almost exclusively in the Northeast (VT, NE, Northern NY) seem impressionistic enough to work nearly anywhere.  For example the Picket Pin and ‘88′ streamer.  I

Quite possibly every new pattern that aims at exact imitation starts as a "regional" pattern, so far as what it imitates lives in some places and not others.  E.g. cress bugs were invented by Pennsylvania tyers for Pennsylvania streams, even though you can find crustacea everywhere that look like them. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Question:

I have lost the info on how to unsubscribe please tell me how thanks Serge

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I have lost the info on how to unsubscribe please tell me how

You cannot subscribe or unsubscribe from an open newsgroup (e.g. rec.outdoors.fishing.fly).  It is always there, whether you go into it or not.  If you have used your Internet node software to select some "favourite" newsgroups that are speedily retrieved for you, you should be able to revise it to suit yourself. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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I have lost the info on how to unsubscribe please tell me how thanks Serge

functions of the software that you’re using.  For instance, in Navigator, you just ‘uncheck’ the group name. — Bob Lundy IWFFC Mississauga, ON, Canada **new**     http://home.ican.net/~rlundy/

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Question:

Heading to B.C. but I don’t know where to go.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.  I’m a stream fisherman so point me in the right direction.

BC is mostly lake fishing, esp Kamloops area.  However, there is excellent stream fishing at Skagit River (C&R only) near Hope also steelhead/salmon at Chilliwack River. — The views expressed are my own and does not represent those of my employer.

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Heading to B.C. but I don’t know where to go.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.  I’m a stream fisherman so point me in the right direction.

From you monniker you might like to try and get hold of Kelly Davison 11891 Charrington Maple Ridge BC 604 467 6406 He guided me a couple of years back in September/October and I lost count of the bright sea run cuts we landed – mostly 2lb or so – but up to about 4lb. All taken on an olive marabou/mylar minnow pattern on a l/s size 8. My first experience with cuts – and one of the best days fishing ever! I also heard that you can beach cast for them with a fly rod from below College Park – but didn’t have the time to get down there. Tight lines — Martin Kurrein 199 Strand London WC2R 1DR http://www.mkurrein.co.uk/

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Heading to B.C. but I don’t know where to go.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.  I’m a stream fisherman so point me in the right direction.

Try the Web page for Hansen’s in Vancouver (I could find the address somewhere if you can’t).  They gave me a greta trip for early July – lake fishing with damsel flies.  But they could give you a completely different suggestion for the time you are going.

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Heading to B.C. but I don’t know where to go.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.  I’m a stream fisherman so point me in the right direction.

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Question:

I haven’t had much luck finding a good fly fishing shop in LA. I’m looking for a place which has both fresh and saltwater equipment, and some materials for rod building. Any ideas? Thanks…

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Try Bob Marriotts Flyfishing store. 2700 Orangethorpe, Fullerton. (714) 525-1827. A flyfishers Disneyland. If they don’t have it , it isn’t made. They also have a catalog for 3 bucks thats as thick as a phone book.  Mark Heskett

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Try Bob Marriotts Flyfishing store. 2700 Orangethorpe, Fullerton. (714) 525-1827. A flyfishers Disneyland. If they don’t have it , it isn’t made. They also have a catalog for 3 bucks thats as thick as a phone book.

Ditto on Marriot’s.  Biggest fly shop I’ve ever been in by far.  I’m in Sacramento, but I go to marriot’s every time I get the chance.   They also have a catalog for 3 bucks thats as thick as a phone book.

If you go in the store they’ll usually give you the catalog for free. Look for my picture.  I’m the good looking fellow casting behind Nick Curcione. John

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Indeed….. FISHERMEN’S SPOT 14423 Burbank Van Nuys, CA 91401 Tel: 818-785-7306 ….great selection…great advice…great service…..very good people. Give them a try! Gerhard

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Yeah, gotta go with the Fisherman’s Spot myself. Always get great service, even when I come in with a five-year-old screaming mimi zinging around my feet and a nine-month-old octopus in my arms. They even have their own web page now, although I don’t have the address. Call information for their number and they’ll be able to tell you.

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Question:

I’m seriously considering purchasing a Water Otter for use on various Montana and Wyoming waters.  They interest me because I want a craft that is suitable for both still and moving water, although I am not foolish enough (yet) to try something like this on whitewater.  I would love to hear from anyone that has had experience with these craft. Specifically, what are their limitations and are you satisfied with your purchase?   Would you buy one again if you had to do it all over again?   Recommendations on other models are also welcome. – –

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Dale , I too am intrested in water otters. However last year I built a kick boat that has really opened new horizons for me.I usually fish the Yakima which is very similar in size to the Blackfoot. My kick boat is made to fit in my Grand Cherokee. Has an aluminum frame with rowing risers and floats of laminated coated styrofoam. it cost a hundred or so and has generated requests for plans whererer I go.  It can go through about 4" of water and has gone through some swift- but not rapids- water. Some day i’ll write up my plans. Herb

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: Dale , : I too am intrested in water otters. However last year I built a kick boat : that has really opened new horizons for me.I usually fish the Yakima which : is very similar in size to the Blackfoot. My kick boat is made to fit in : my Grand Cherokee. Has an aluminum frame with rowing risers and floats of : laminated coated styrofoam. it cost a hundred or so and has generated : requests for plans whererer I go.  It can go through about 4" of water and : has gone through some swift- but not rapids- water. Some day i’ll write up : my plans. : Herb I too built a kickboat (the WaterSkater, plans available in most fly fishing mags) And I love it.  No problems with inflation, it is stable as sitting on the floor, and Herb’s comment about getting requests for information every time he brings it out sure sound familiar!  If you don’t need the inflatable aspect, the foam kickboat is a real option.  I think the water skater guys now make a finished one if you don’t want to build your own.

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