Question:

In San Francisco, some years back, a woman was arrested because she had a live hand grenade in her purse. There was a fishing line leading from her belt to the pin, so that if someone snatched her purse, it would shortly explode, killing the purse snatcher. While I do not feel too bad about the purse snatcher, as the police pointed out, there might be considerable carnage among innocent bystanders. I don’t remember what the legal outcome of the case was, probably an "illegal possession" charge. Boyd — "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity." (Ellen Parr- author) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just to support an earlier statement… see men leave the privates alone…… Mike A Purse-Snatcher’s Worse Nightmare? ROME (Reuters) – Being caught and surrounded by an entire rugby team may just be one of a purse-snatcher’s worst nightmares. And yet, it happened for real to a man who snatched a woman’s purse in the northern Italian city of Bologna. The snatching happened close to a hotel where Serie A teams Benetton Treviso and Fly Flot Cavisano were about to hold a news conference. The pickpocket was spotted by two Benetton team members who ran after him, Italy’s Rugby Federation said in a statement. The two — Andrea Gritti and Massimiliano Perziano — are both full internationals. Lock forward Gritti is two meters tall and weighs an imposing 107 kg while winger Perziano is one of the quickest players in the country. The purse-snatcher, followed by the two players, sought refuge in a kindergarten, which was quickly surrounded by the whole Benetton team. The man was arrested a few minutes later by police. Benetton Treviso and Fly Flot Cavisano are due to play the decisive game for the Serie A championship title on Saturday. All opinions expressed are mine unless otherwise noted. Copyright

Question:

Putting all that together, I gather that I haven’t broken a rod while casting because I use a roll cast or retrieve enough of a wet line to avoid that overload on the lift, and I’m never over bending the rod while casting.  The fatal errors come in the heat of battle. The more I think about it, I see what you mean about casting being the heaviest force on the rod. Thanks for your help, Chas

Response:

The force generated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod.

If it’s done right the rod is already fully loaded and you are just accelerating the line and, more importantly, the tip of the line. — Charlie…

Response:

The force generated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod. If it’s done right the rod is already fully loaded and you are just accelerating the line and, more importantly, the tip of the line. — Charlie…

Charlie, Your analysis of hauling to increase line speed and thus increasing casting distance is correct.  If it was a matter of loading the rod as rw says the caster would only have to apply more power to accomplish this. Ernie

Response:

rw, If the haul is done correctly the rod is fully loaded and any additional speed must be imparted to the line by foreword movement of your arm and by pulling "hauling" the line through the guides. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to doubt that additional rod loading is minimal, Mike. The only way the caster can increase the speed of the line is by accelerating it. The only way he can accelerate it is by exerting a force on the line at the rod tip. (F=ma). An equal and opposite force is exerted on the rod at the tip, which results in loading the rod.

Response:

Charlie, Your analysis of hauling to increase line speed and thus increasing casting distance is correct.  If it was a matter of loading the rod as rw says the caster would only have to apply more power to accomplish this. Ernie

I’m not saying that the *point* of hauling is to load the rod. I’m saying only that one *effect* of hauling is additional loading of the rod. It has to have that effect — there’s no way around it. Hauling accelerates the line, which generates a force on the rod tip. (F=ma) Consider three cases: 1. After loading the rod on the forward cast (with no hauling), you accidently lose your grip on the line with your noncasting hand. The acceleration of the line vanishes, the force on the rod tip vanishes, the rod straightens without appreciably affecting the line, and the line falls on the water in a bloody mess. 2. You make a normal forward cast without hauling, just holding the line tight. A force is applied to the line by the rod tip, causing acceleration of the line. An equal and opposite force is applied to the rod top, causing loading of the rod. 3. You make a forward cast while hauling. The action of the noncasting hand, pulling on the line, causes an *additional* acceleration of the line. This additional acceleration causes an *additional* force on the rod tip, resulting in additional loading of the rod. If you ignore things like friction, you could replace the effect (on the rod) of hauling by a transient additional stress in the line, and the rod would have no way of "knowing" the difference. It would simply load more. (The line would behave very differently, though.) These three cases are really just points in a continuum. Whether you consider this additional rod loading to be significant is your business, but it’s nonetheless real. This is just elementary physics. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Whether you consider this additional rod loading to be significant is your business, but it’s nonetheless real. This is just elementary physics.

It also ignores the fact that the line is not attached to the tip of the rod and that the rod is very nearly, if not fully, loaded. There may be some additional loading, but what makes the haul work is the additional acceleration applied directly to the line. This is just elementary geometry<g. — Charlie…

Response:

http://www.mikeconnor.de You didn’t comment on my second reason.  Does this make sense to you?      A second reason that the loading is not the key is that you could achieve the same additional loading if you just applied a bit more casting force.  We know that a man of modest strength and a good haul can outcast a muscle man who doesn’t haul. Thanks Chas

This is also correct.    The amount of linespeed any particular rod may generate in a flyline by direct action is limited by various things, one of which is the strength and speed of the caster. ( assuming once again perfect technique). If you haul, you do not increase the loading, as you do not use direct rod action, but your line hand, and you do not require any more strength and speed to obtain similar results to someone who does not haul. However, a powerful person with good technique will always cast better ( assuming distance casting here of course), than a weaker person, simply because he has more power per se. TL MC

Response:

– "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If it were so that hauling dramatically increased rod loading, then hauling on an already optimally loaded rod would cause it to fold up. I’ve been mean to a few rods at times, putting a #10 line in a #8 rod and casting Pike flies for instance, but I’ve never managed to break one casting.  Is this because most of my fishing has been with Graphite or Glass? I have to dig back into some old Physics books to get the details, but I remember stress and strain curves for various materials showing a linear relationship until a limit was released, and then additional stress produced excessive strain until the material failed.  Certainly with an old shoe or a fish on the line and a stout leader it’s easy enough to pass the elastic limit, but does that happen in casting as well? Thanks Chas

If you ask most people at what point a rod is stressed the most, then many of them will tell you that it is in playing a fish.  This is not the case. The basic maximum stress condition for a rod, when used correctly, is when casting. Most modern rods can stand a great deal more stress in this respect than is generally realised.  What they can not stand is shock loading under stress. If you jerk a rod when it is already loaded with a "dead weight", either played out fish, old shoe etc etc then it is highly likely to break. Solid glass fibre rods were probably the most robust rods to date.  Carbon fibre suffers from one or two disadvantages here. Even a slight nick in the surface of a blank can cause sudden massive failure, sometimes the blank will simply shatter without warning. More rods are broken by various extraneous factors than by casting.  The failure might indeed occur when casting, but is usually the result of some other fault. Car doors, falling down on the rod, excessive heat, leaning a rod on a stone and nicking it, ramming the tip into a tree, etc etc. Constantly overloading a rod by casting full lines etc, which are way over the rated weight will usually cause a blank failure as well of course. Most rods broken while actually fishing, do so for a number of reasons, the main one directly fishing related, is getting snagged, putting a good bend in the rod, and then jerking it.  This will quite easily snap a carbon fibre blank, or shatter it . The sudden extreme shock loading under stress is more than the rod can handle. The second most common reason is trying to lift a long line, especially a sunken one, without first roll-casting the line to the surface. Attempting to do this will break most rods. The sudden massive loading is once again more than they can stand. The third most common reason is attempting to land a fish by holding the rod almost vertically, and allowing it to bend over ninety degrees from the vertical. The fish plunges, and the rod simply snaps at the tip. No major exertions are required here by the way, doing the same thing while threading a line through the rings  will also snap a rod tip quite easily. What often happens here, is that the rod is bent, and then the blank "rolls" suddenly changing the stress patterns in the blank walls, and causing it to break. Occasionally rods are broken when fighting very large fish, but this is again an error on the part of the angler. It should normally be impossible for a fish to break a rod, given sufficient angling skill, and correct tackle.. Holding a rod in the fingers and bending it, is also very dangerous. Especially with fine tips. Assuming a rod in good condition, no nicks etc. And also assuming correctly matched line, and reasonable casting, and correct use, then the likelihood of breaking a rod is actually very low indeed. TL MC

Response:

"Mike Connor" wrote This is not a matter of taking sides I hope. Otherwise I will simply retire from the discussion. This is a technical discussion and nothing more.

Of course, my sloppy wording betrayed me. Apart from that, you are perfectly correct. Although the rod loading generated by hauling is inconsequential, irrespective of the current loading state of the rod.  When the rod is already optimally loaded, and as you say at its stiffest, the added loading generated by hauling is so small as to be insignificant. This is just as well, as if hauling did in fact appreciably increase rod loading, then an already optimally loaded rod would simply fold up under the added strain.

You didn’t comment on my second reason.  Does this make sense to you?      A second reason that the loading is not the key is that you could achieve the same additional loading if you just applied a bit more casting force.  We know that a man of modest strength and a good haul can outcast a muscle man who doesn’t haul.

Thanks Chas

Response:

If it were so that hauling dramatically increased rod loading, then hauling on an already optimally loaded rod would cause it to fold up.

I’ve been mean to a few rods at times, putting a #10 line in a #8 rod and casting Pike flies for instance, but I’ve never managed to break one casting.  Is this because most of my fishing has been with Graphite or Glass? I have to dig back into some old Physics books to get the details, but I remember stress and strain curves for various materials showing a linear relationship until a limit was released, and then additional stress produced excessive strain until the material failed.  Certainly with an old shoe or a fish on the line and a stout leader it’s easy enough to pass the elastic limit, but does that happen in casting as well? Thanks Chas

Response:

When you haul you’re loading the rod by making it work harder against the inertia of the line. I don’t really think "shortening the line" is a good way to look at it. A haul takes in maybe two or three feet of line, and you have maybe 30 feet or more out. I agree with what you’re saying, but I can "cast" nearly thirty feet by using only my right arm as the rod (with fingers in O shape to act as the tiptop) and a lefthand haul. So there’s more to it than just the rod tip.

Your finger is playing the role of the rod tip in that case. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 6:33 AM This would be correct if the line was fixed at the rod tip. When hauling it is not. It moves more or less freely through the guides. The force applied is applied directly to the line, independent of the rod loading.  The "equal and opposite reaction" in this case, is immediate line acceleration due to a direct pull, and is independent of the rod. Some of this force( a relatively small amount actually ) does indeed go towards the total rod loading, but compared to the force which is transferred to the line, this may be more or less ignored. I’m afraid you’re missing the point, Mike. It’s really irrelevant whether the line is fixed or free to move through the guides. There is a force exerted on the line, by the rod tip, that accelerates the line. There is a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the rod tip. That force has the effect of bending the rod. The greater the force, the more the line is accelerated, and the more the rod is bent (i.e., loaded). None of this force can be "ignored". The force generated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod. The acceleration is induced by a direct pull on the line, and is only possible because the line is indeed able to move independent of the rod tip. The point is, that when you haul, the line moves, and the rod does not, or only slightly. Thread your rod up with a line. Lay the line out and point the rod straight down the line.  Grasp the line at the butt, and pull sharply. The rod has not been loaded in any way, but the line will spring towards you. The direct pull moves the mass directly. Do the same thing holding the rod at an angle to the line, The same thing occurs, with a relatively small proportion of the applied force bending the rod tip slightly, if at all. Progressively increase the angle until the rod is at right angles to the line. At this point the maximum possible rod loading, under these circumstances, will occur when you pull on the line, nevertheless, the majority of the energy involved still goes towards moving the line, the tip will barely move. It is quite immaterial how hard, how long, or how fast you pull. The energy is transferred directly to the line. The rod is barely affected. The angle of the rod changes the vector, and the rod loads a little, due to friction mainly, but the majority of the energy involved goes into moving the line. If it were so that hauling dramatically increased rod loading, then hauling on an already optimally loaded rod would cause it to fold up. This is not the case. The result of hauling is dramatically increased linespeed, because of the direct application of force to the line.  You dont have to believe me, just try it. This is also incidentally why striking a fish with a pull on the line is better than doing it with the rod. The force applied is transferred more or less directly, with very little loss, to the hook point. The rod does not move much,  and  is not loaded appreciably. Only the line moves. If you strike with the rod, you must first load it, before you can apply any force at all, and because of the mechanical disadvantage involved, the force you transfer will be minimal, and indirect. The principles are the same in both cases. In one case you are transferring energy to accelerate a mass using the short end of a flexible lever, and in the other case you are doing it by giving a direct pull.  The lever is in the second case quite immaterial, and may be ignored. TL MC Again, there’s no "direct" pull on the line. ALL the force affecting the airborne line is generated at the rod tip. If you lay  a piece of string along a table top, and pull one end, depending on the force and speed with which you pull, you can accelerate the string quite easily, giving it very considerable momentum. The string accelerates immediately, simply as a result of the pull. No rods etc are involved. The only force involved is the direct pull. Sure, but that’s not what’s happening when the line is strung though a rod. You (the caster) can exert a force on the line in your left (hauling) hand, but the only force that can be exerted on the airborne line *outside* the rod is exerted at the rod tip. Before hauling was discovered, the line momentum was indeed totally dependent on the acceleration of the rod tip. With hauling, this is no longer the case.  When hauling, the extra line velocity is independent of the rod tip. I’m not saying *anything* about the acceleration of the rod tip. I’m only saying that the force on the line (outside the rod) is generated ONLY at the rod tip. Where else? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

This is not a matter of taking sides I hope. Otherwise I will simply retire from the discussion. This is a technical discussion and nothing more. Apart from that, you are perfectly correct. Although the rod loading generated by hauling is inconsequential, irrespective of the current loading state of the rod.  When the rod is already optimally loaded, and as you say at its stiffest, the added loading generated by hauling is so small as to be insignificant. This is just as well, as if hauling did in fact appreciably increase rod loading, then an already optimally loaded rod would simply fold up under the added strain. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RW,     I have to side with Mike here, for a couple reasons.  If the haul is done right, it happens when the rod is fully loaded.  At that point it’s at it’s stiffest, and the flex isn’t increased much by the added force.  The reaction force is actually the force you apply with your line hand when you haul the line in.      A second reason that the loading is not the key is that you could achieve the same additional loading if you just applied a bit more casting force.  We know that a man of modest strength and a good haul can outcast a muscle man who doesn’t haul.      Also, there is direct pull on the line, the guides are like pulleys.  If you consider an 18 inch haul, and watch the effect on the rod tip, I bet it’s drawn back less than 4 inches.  The other 14 inches were directly applied to the line. Chas

Response:

This would be correct if the line was fixed at the rod tip. When hauling it is not. It moves more or less freely through the guides. The force applied is applied directly to the line, independent of the rod loading.  The "equal and opposite reaction" in this case, is immediate line acceleration due to a direct pull, and is independent of the rod. Some of this force( a relatively small amount actually ) does indeed go towards the total rod loading, but compared to the force which is transferred to the line, this may be more or less ignored.

I’m afraid you’re missing the point, Mike. It’s really irrelevant whether the line is fixed or free to move through the guides. There is a force exerted on the line, by the rod tip, that accelerates the line. There is a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the rod tip. That force has the effect of bending the rod. The greater the force, the more the line is accelerated, and the more the rod is bent (i.e., loaded). None of this force can be "ignored". The force generated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod. The acceleration is induced by a direct pull on the line, and is only possible because the line is indeed able to move independent of the rod tip.

Again, there’s no "direct" pull on the line. ALL the force affecting the airborne line is generated at the rod tip. If you lay  a piece of string along a table top, and pull one end, depending on the force and speed with which you pull, you can accelerate the string quite easily, giving it very considerable momentum. The string accelerates immediately, simply as a result of the pull. No rods etc are involved. The only force involved is the direct pull.

Sure, but that’s not what’s happening when the line is strung though a rod. You (the caster) can exert a force on the line in your left (hauling) hand, but the only force that can be exerted on the airborne line *outside* the rod is exerted at the rod tip. Before hauling was discovered, the line momentum was indeed totally dependent on the acceleration of the rod tip. With hauling, this is no longer the case.  When hauling, the extra line velocity is independent of the rod tip.

I’m not saying *anything* about the acceleration of the rod tip. I’m only saying that the force on the line (outside the rod) is generated ONLY at the rod tip. Where else? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Additional rod loading when hauling is  minimal.  Most of the force used is transmitted directly to the line, increasing its speed immediately and drastically. Momentum = Mass * Velocity

I have to doubt that additional rod loading is minimal, Mike. The only way the caster can increase the speed of the line is by accelerating it. The only way he can accelerate it is by exerting a force on the line at the rod tip. (F=ma). An equal and opposite force is exerted on the rod at the tip, which results in loading the rod. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

This would be correct if the line was fixed at the rod tip. When hauling it is not. It moves more or less freely through the guides. The force applied is applied directly to the line, independent of the rod loading.  The "equal and opposite reaction" in this case, is immediate line acceleration due to a direct pull, and is independent of the rod. Some of this force( a relatively small amount actually ) does indeed go towards the total rod loading, but compared to the force which is transferred to the line, this may be more or less ignored. The acceleration is induced by a direct pull on the line, and is only possible because the line is indeed able to move independent of the rod tip. If you lay  a piece of string along a table top, and pull one end, depending on the force and speed with which you pull, you can accelerate the string quite easily, giving it very considerable momentum. The string accelerates immediately, simply as a result of the pull. No rods etc are involved. The only force involved is the direct pull. Before hauling was discovered, the line momentum was indeed totally dependent on the acceleration of the rod tip. With hauling, this is no longer the case.  When hauling, the extra line velocity is independent of the rod tip. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Additional rod loading when hauling is  minimal.  Most of the force used is transmitted directly to the line, increasing its speed immediately and drastically. Momentum = Mass * Velocity I have to doubt that additional rod loading is minimal, Mike. The only way the caster can increase the speed of the line is by accelerating it. The only way he can accelerate it is by exerting a force on the line at the rod tip. (F=ma). An equal and opposite force is exerted on the rod at the tip, which results in loading the rod. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

One other point.  Inertia is the direct measurement of a mass.  The only way to change inertia is to change the mass. One may not "break" inertia.  One may overcome it, ( move the mass) by applying force. Newtons laws explain this relatively simply. The first law states that:  " A body will remain at rest, or continue to move steadily in a straight line without acceleration unless it is acted on by an unopposed force. The second law states: "The acceleration of a body depends directly on the force acting on it but inversely upon its mass" The third law states: "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" Force is a measure of the rate at which momentum is changed. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Additional rod loading when hauling is  minimal.  Most of the force used is transmitted directly to the line, increasing its speed immediately and drastically.

Response:

I sure hope you’re not breaking your wrist with this arm cast, which would be very bad form, you know. JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree with what you’re saying, but I can "cast" nearly thirty feet by using only my right arm as the rod (with fingers in O shape to act as the tiptop) and a lefthand haul. So there’s more to it than just the rod tip. In fact, in a blindfold test I can’t tell the difference between a Cabelas rod and my own arm

Response:

So, In your estimation, does your wrist have a fast action or slow action and how does it affect your distance?

Well, it’s not a limp wrist I’ll tell you that much And while it *is* acting as the rod tip, it’s not loading in the same sense as a fly rod is it? Isn’t most of the line action due to acceleration because I’m pulling on it (and not wrist flip caused by the pulling)? –Steve

Response:

RW,     I have to side with Mike here, for a couple reasons.  If the haul is done right, it happens when the rod is fully loaded.  At that point it’s at it’s stiffest, and the flex isn’t increased much by the added force.  The reaction force is actually the force you apply with your line hand when you haul the line in.      A second reason that the loading is not the key is that you could achieve the same additional loading if you just applied a bit more casting force.  We know that a man of modest strength and a good haul can outcast a muscle man who doesn’t haul.      Also, there is direct pull on the line, the guides are like pulleys.  If you consider an 18 inch haul, and watch the effect on the rod tip, I bet it’s drawn back less than 4 inches.  The other 14 inches were directly applied to the line. Chas

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This would be correct if the line was fixed at the rod tip. When hauling it is not. It moves more or less freely through the guides. The force applied is applied directly to the line, independent of the rod loading.  The "equal and opposite reaction" in this case, is immediate line acceleration due to a direct pull, and is independent of the rod. Some of this force( a relatively small amount actually ) does indeed go towards the total rod loading, but compared to the force which is transferred to the line, this may be more or less ignored. I’m afraid you’re missing the point, Mike. It’s really irrelevant whether the line is fixed or free to move through the guides. There is a force exerted on the line, by the rod tip, that accelerates the line. There is a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the rod tip. That force has the effect of bending the rod. The greater the force, the more the line is accelerated, and the more the rod is bent (i.e., loaded). None of this force can be "ignored". The force gener ated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod. The acceleration is induced by a direct pull on the line, and is only possible because the line is indeed able to move independent of the rod tip. Again, there’s no "direct" pull on the line. ALL the force affecting the airborne line is generated at the rod tip. If you lay  a piece of string along a table top, and pull one end, depending on the force and speed with which you pull, you can accelerate the string quite easily, giving it very considerable momentum. The string accelerates immediately, simply as a result of the pull. No rods etc are involved. The only force involved is the direct pull. Sure, but that’s not what’s happening when the line is strung though a rod. You (the caster) can exert a force on the line in your left (hauling) hand, but the only force that can be exerted on the airborne line *outside* the rod is exerted at the rod tip. Before hauling was discovered, the line momentum was indeed totally dependent on the acceleration of the rod tip. With hauling, this is no longer the case.  When hauling, the extra line velocity is independent of the rod tip. I’m not saying *anything* about the acceleration of the rod tip. I’m only saying that the force on the line (outside the rod) is generated ONLY at the rod tip. Where else? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

So, In your estimation, does your wrist have a fast action or slow action and how does it affect your distance? Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you haul you’re loading the rod by making it work harder against the inertia of the line. I don’t really think "shortening the line" is a good way to look at it. A haul takes in maybe two or three feet of line, and you have maybe 30 feet or more out. I agree with what you’re saying, but I can "cast" nearly thirty feet by using only my right arm as the rod (with fingers in O shape to act as the tiptop) and a lefthand haul. So there’s more to it than just the rod tip. In fact, in a blindfold test I can’t tell the difference between a Cabelas rod and my own arm –Steve

Response:

Additional rod loading when hauling is  minimal.  Most of the force used is transmitted directly to the line, increasing its speed immediately and drastically. Momentum = Mass * Velocity A very short haul of a couple of inches is sufficient to increase line speed drastically, and thus increase its momentum, allowing the mass to be thrown a greater distance. The harder(force), longer ( distance) and faster( time) the haul, the greater the resulting line momentum, independent of the rod.  The same effect may be observed without using a rod at all. Shortening line decreases the mass, and therefore reduces momentum.  As far as hauling is concerned this is more or less negligible. Shortening the line by even a couple of feet, does not reduce its mass by much. If you overload the rod, the haul will still be effective, but due to the rod already being overloaded, additional strain, even slight, due to shock loading might damage it. Otherwise the length of line ( total mass ) is irrelevant when hauling. The effect is the same with or without a rod, and with any length of line. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From what I’ve always been told,  the reason that hauling improves the line speed is that additional loading is put into the rod by the action of hauling. Obviously the hauling is done during the power phases fore and aft.  An immediate reaction of the hauling action is a shortening of the line,  and therefore an increase in velocity:  Is it at all significant compared to the additional loading of the rod?  Is the inertia of the line broken by the haul and therefore allows the spring of the rod to work on an already moving line? I suppose the way to test it out would be to overline a rod and cast a sufficient length of line to overload the rod.  Would hauling be effective? According to the simple haul/loading spring idea,  the haul would (perhaps) be ineffective, though the shortening of the line (derived from the haul) would still prevail?

Response:

When you haul you’re loading the rod by making it work harder against the inertia of the line. I don’t really think "shortening the line" is a good way to look at it. A haul takes in maybe two or three feet of line, and you have maybe 30 feet or more out.

I agree with what you’re saying, but I can "cast" nearly thirty feet by using only my right arm as the rod (with fingers in O shape to act as the tiptop) and a lefthand haul. So there’s more to it than just the rod tip. In fact, in a blindfold test I can’t tell the difference between a Cabelas rod and my own arm –Steve

Response:

From what I’ve always been told,  the reason that hauling improves the line speed is that additional loading is put into the rod by the action of hauling. Obviously the hauling is done during the power phases fore and aft.  An immediate reaction of the hauling action is a shortening of the line,  and therefore an increase in velocity:  Is it at all significant compared to the additional loading of the rod?  Is the inertia of the line broken by the haul and therefore allows the spring of the rod to work on an already moving line? I suppose the way to test it out would be to overline a rod and cast a sufficient length of line to overload the rod.  Would hauling be effective? According to the simple haul/loading spring idea,  the haul would (perhaps) be ineffective, though the shortening of the line (derived from the haul) would still prevail?

Response:

From what I’ve always been told,  the reason that hauling improves the line speed is that additional loading is put into the rod by the action of hauling. Obviously the hauling is done during the power phases fore and aft.  An immediate reaction of the hauling action is a shortening of the line,  and therefore an increase in velocity:  Is it at all significant compared to the additional loading of the rod?  Is the inertia of the line broken by the haul and therefore allows the spring of the rod to work on an already moving line?

When you haul you’re loading the rod by making it work harder against the inertia of the line. I don’t really think "shortening the line" is a good way to look at it. A haul takes in maybe two or three feet of line, and you have maybe 30 feet or more out. Imagine what would happen if the end of the line were attached to a springy tree branch when you hauled. (An all too frequent occurence in my case.) The rod would bend even if you didn’t move it forward. By hauling, you cause an increase in the force exerted by the rod tip on the line. When you haul in the normal, more felicitous case, more or less the same thing happens, but the resistance of the tree branch is replaced by the inertia of the line. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Question:

I’ll see what I can do, PSU tickets between the 20s are hard to find. I’d love to go to any PSU home game this year, and if I can get tickets I’ll contact you.  How much prior notice do you require?

I’m workin’ on a ticket in the visitors section from this end as well. Unfortunately, I’m well down the pecking order of Illini alums and probably won’t get one. If I do, I’d be very grateful and appreciative of the opportunity to have you show me some of those great PA streams around the ballgame. If we can pull this off, we’ll need to hijack Mark Faulkner and force him to fish with us. As far as prior notice, … hell, I don’t know, depends on what’s happening at the time. Don’t go to any expense on my account, the game will be on the tube anyway. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

This has the makings of an miniclave in central PA.  Let’s work on some tickets and see what happens.  After the so-called "Fighting Illini" get sent back to the playpen by the Nittany Lions – led by the quarterback now proudly known as the "defendant" – we can get to some serious fishing. Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m workin’ on a ticket in the visitors section from this end as well. Unfortunately, I’m well down the pecking order of Illini alums and probably won’t get one. If I do, I’d be very grateful and appreciative of the opportunity to have you show me some of those great PA streams around the ballgame. If we can pull this off, we’ll need to hijack Mark Faulkner and force him to fish with us.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll see what I can do, PSU tickets between the 20s are hard to find.  I’d love to go to any PSU home game this year, and if I can get tickets I’ll contact you.  How much prior notice do you require? I’m workin’ on a ticket in the visitors section from this end as well. Unfortunately, I’m well down the pecking order of Illini alums and probably won’t get one. If I do, I’d be very grateful and appreciative of the opportunity to have you show me some of those great PA streams around the ballgame. If we can pull this off, we’ll need to hijack Mark Faulkner and force him to fish with us. As far as prior notice, … hell, I don’t know, depends on what’s happening at the time. Don’t go to any expense on my account, the game will be on the tube anyway. — Ken Fortenberry

Well, I had been looking for PSU tickets for any home game already.  If I can get them, I’m sure that I will be able to find somebody around here that would want to go with me if you are unavailable.  The most available tickets are always in the student section (of course) which is at the wrong end of the field for an Illini fan…  Usually you can find tickets in the newspaper or on eBay in the week or two immediately prior to the game.  Nothing personal, but a game vs. Illinios isn’t like a game against Michigan or OSU so finding tickets may not be impossible. Tom perhaps we should be looking for the Big Ten newsgroup? Before you buy.

Response:

So I’m hoping that one of you ROFFians can help me…  Or maybe you just know somebody who might.  Anybody who fishes in the Centre/Clinton/Lycoming county region who would be willing to throw away a few hours of their time giving me a few pointers would be a blessing.  Hell, I’ll bring the food AND the beer. Thanks, Tom Before you buy.

Tom It just so happens that I will spending Labor Day weekend at my cabin along Slate Run in Lycoming County. I will arriving on Thur the 31st and departing Mon morning Sep 4. Slate Run is a beautiful wild trout stream in a remote wilderness setting as are Cedar Run and Young Womens Creek all near by. Maybe we could hookup sometime over the weekend for a little dry fly fishing. I probaby dry fly fish 95% of the time so maybe I could help you out a little there. Drop me a email message if you are interested. We would have to pick a time and place to meet before hand as there is no phone in the cabin. John Mimnall Before you buy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll see what I can do, PSU tickets between the 20s are hard to find. I’d love to go to any PSU home game this year, and if I can get tickets I’ll contact you.  How much prior notice do you require? I’m workin’ on a ticket in the visitors section from this end as well. Unfortunately, I’m well down the pecking order of Illini alums and probably won’t get one. If I do, I’d be very grateful and appreciative of the opportunity to have you show me some of those great PA streams around the ballgame. If we can pull this off, we’ll need to hijack Mark Faulkner and force him to fish with us. — Ken Fortenberry

Hell Ken you could probaby be on the stream by halftime as the soon to be convict PSU quarterback will probaby run circles around the Illini defense and there would be no question as to the outcome of the game by that time. Before you buy.

Response:

Nothing personal, but a game vs. Illinios isn’t

like a game against Michigan or OSU so finding tickets may not be impossible.< Going at cut rate prices, one would assume. <g

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It just so happens that I will spending Labor Day weekend at my cabin along Slate Run in Lycoming County… Slate Run is a beautiful wild trout stream in a remote wilderness setting as are Cedar Run and Young Womens Creek all near by.

John, John, John. I’m afraid you might have just inadvertently invited one Anthony Wayne Harrison, Esquire to be a permanent house guest at your cabin. Tell me–how far exactly is it to Young Womens from your cabin? –Steve

Response:

 Nothing personal, but a game vs. Illinios isn’t like a game against Michigan or OSU

    bwaaaaahaaaa!     truth always rings clear, even though the sound might be painful to certain ears. wayno

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It just so happens that I will spending Labor Day weekend at my cabin along Slate Run in Lycoming County… Slate Run is a beautiful wild trout stream in a remote wilderness setting as are Cedar Run and Young Womens Creek all near by. John, John, John. I’m afraid you might have just inadvertently invited one Anthony Wayne Harrison, Esquire to be a permanent house guest at your cabin. Tell me–how far exactly is it to Young Womens from your cabin? –Steve

No need for Mr. Harrison’s help as I already saw to it that all the young women along the creek are ‘changed’ and only have eye’s for me. Actually I think the creek was named after a young indian girl that was lost along it. Before you buy.

Response:

Nothing personal, but a game vs. Illinios isn’t like a game against Michigan or OSU so finding tickets may not be impossible. Going at cut rate prices, one would assume. <g     bwaaaaahaaaa!     truth always rings clear, even though the sound might be painful to certain ears.

All this Illini razzing is music to my ears, especially from the Buckeye and Tarheel contingent who happened to be THE major source of college football Laphroaig last season. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

No need for Mr. Harrison’s help as I already saw to it that all the young women along the creek are ‘changed’ and only have eye’s for me.

        pretty work.  so many creeks; so little time. wayno

Response:

All this Illini razzing is music to my ears, especially from the

Buckeye and Tarheel contingent who happened to be THE major source of college football Laphroaig last season. < Hey, Wayne.  Did you reseal your bottle the way I advised?  Gives Laphroaig a decent flavor.  0

Response:

All this Illini razzing is music to my ears, especially from the Buckeye and Tarheel contingent who happened to be THE major source of college football Laphroaig last season. —

"college football Laphroaig"??? isn’t that a team in texas?  no wait that’s the horned phroaigs…  oh hell, can we at least have a better quality bet this year fellas??  with Laphroaig as the trophy, it’s no wonder the heels lost and wayno paid up…who’d want that cadaver juice?  ’cept ken, of course… <G jeff

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"college football Laphroaig"??? isn’t that a team in texas?  no wait that’s the horned phroaigs…  

Maybe you’re thinking of a different Forty, the north Dallas one perhaps? <g — Charlie…

Response:

"college football Laphroaig"??? isn’t that a team in texas?  no wait that’s the horned phroaigs…  oh hell, can we at least have a better quality bet this year fellas??  with Laphroaig as the trophy, it’s no wonder the heels lost and wayno paid up…who’d want that cadaver juice?  ’cept ken, of course… <G

The Laphroaig is my winnings. If the Tarheels ever put together a football squad, I’d owe Wayno some horribly expensive chardonnay. If the Buckeyes were to get real lucky I’d have to get Harry a bottle of Cardhu. In the spirit of "you can never have too much Laphroaig" I should find a sucker^H^H^H^H^H^H  football fan of the Nittany Lion persuasion to swindle^H^H^H^H^H^H^H  bet with this year. — Ken Fortenberry

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Does anyone know what happened to my Barnoculars? Lost them sometime in college in California early 80’s… absolute necessity for college football where they frisk you as you enter… as a Democrat who encourages diversity, I’d put single malt in one half, bourbon in the other…

Response:

I am, I guess, a newbie in many respects. I’ve owned a fly rod since 1990 or so, but

Hell, I’ll bring the food AND the beer. Tom

 Hell, if you bring the food and beer…….well, I’ll be there. I live a few hours away from Happy Valley  but try to get out that way as often as time allows. My last trip was probably a month ago so I’m due for another any weekend. Around Oct 9 I have five days free and plan on fishing/drinking my time away. Depending on my $$$ flow, I will be floating the Deleware, trying my luck at Striper fishing, searching for Salmon or camping at Hemlock Acres, which is in your neck of the woods. I’d be more than happy to give you a few pointers if I’m out that way. Have you tried Flyfishers Paradise? There’s a spot there I call the trough. Its the channel of water that flows out of the hatchery ponds. There are *big* fish there year round sipping on midges. The day before Christmas I was there- 24 degrees out and they were feeding! I’ve taught several of my friends how to midge fish there. My friend Phil caught his first fish on a fly there- a 17 inch bow on a sz. 26 midge. Its a good place to learn because the fish are immune to human presence. You can cast to them all day and they dont move. The key is to use small flies. Sz. 22 or smaller. And as long as I’m there to teach someone else, I don’t feel guilty about hooking a few myself  If I head that way, I’ll drop you a line. Tight Lines… Matt M.

Response:

I am, I guess, a newbie in many respects. I’ve owned a fly rod since 1990 or so, but have only begun fly fishing (almost) exclusively this summer.  I grew up here in central PA (Clinton Co.) fishing with spinners and salmon eggs.  I can usually catch trout quite successfully in PA streams with a Panther Martin spinner…  This is my first summer fly fishing in PA. I am woefully inept with dry flies, 95% of my fly fishing experience being in Alaska, where the notorious ‘egg hatch’ is the only hatch worth worrying about.  Of the remaining 5%, 4% is pond fishing with small poppers for bass/crappie/bream in NC and 1% has been this summer here in central PA.  Due to this experience my casting is awful (I can roll cast REAL GOOD) and I have no idea which flies to use when. So far, my luck with dry flies has been not so great.  I caught two chubs a couple of weeks ago, and I’ve gone through several leaders and plenty of tippet material trying to catch a trout.  I was surprised by the chubs–I never even considered the possibility of catching a chub on a dry fly.  Or catching chubs at all, for that matter. I only know two people that fly fish, and neither of them very seriously.  One, my aunt’s husband, probably hasn’t fished in 5 years or more.  He may have been fairly adept at it at one time but he no longer seems to have any interest.  The other, the husband of a friend of the same aunt, hasn’t been fly fishing for very long and he is strictly a nymph fisherman. So I’m hoping that one of you ROFFians can help me…  Or maybe you just know somebody who might.  Anybody who fishes in the Centre/Clinton/Lycoming county region who would be willing to throw away a few hours of their time giving me a few pointers would be a blessing.  Hell, I’ll bring the food AND the beer. Just to keep you from digging up my ‘ROFFians: who the hell are these folks?’ post, I am: 33 years old. White. Male. 5′11". 240lbs. (I carry it well, ha ha) Married. (with child, a 15 month old girl) Employed. (Systems Consultant, i.e. glorified computer sales guy) Homeowner. (100-year old Victorian house that requires a LOT of time) I can listen to almost anything, music-wise, but prefer rock-n-roll. I don’t have the most flexible schedule (see above), but I am available practically every weekend.  Saturday or Sunday–no preference here. Penn’s Creek, Spring Creek, Fishing Creek, Kettle Creek, Pine Creek, wherever.  Let’s go fishing! Thanks, Tom Before you buy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …  Hell, I’ll bring the food AND the beer. FREE beer ?! Just to fish with you ? Don’t know which of us will get there first, me or Waldo. If it turns out to be Waldo, FER THE LUV OF GAWD, HIDE THE BEER ! If you let Waldo have the beer BEFORE fishing, you gotta drag him around by his groaty old waders all day. He’s a MUCH better fishing partner if you make him wait til the end of the day to start chugging beers. Hmmmmm, my calendar shows that the Illini are scheduled to whup the snot out of the Nittany Lions on Oct 21. If you were to fix me up with a decent seat, say between the 20’s, on Saturday, I would gladly teach you more than a few bad dry fly fishing habits on Sunday. — Ken Fortenberry

I’ll see what I can do, PSU tickets between the 20s are hard to find. I’d love to go to any PSU home game this year, and if I can get tickets I’ll contact you.  How much prior notice do you require? Tom Before you buy.

Response:

…  Hell, I’ll bring the food AND the beer.

FREE beer ?! Just to fish with you ? Don’t know which of us will get there first, me or Waldo. If it turns out to be Waldo, FER THE LUV OF GAWD, HIDE THE BEER ! If you let Waldo have the beer BEFORE fishing, you gotta drag him around by his groaty old waders all day. He’s a MUCH better fishing partner if you make him wait til the end of the day to start chugging beers. Hmmmmm, my calendar shows that the Illini are scheduled to whup the snot out of the Nittany Lions on Oct 21. If you were to fix me up with a decent seat, say between the 20’s, on Saturday, I would gladly teach you more than a few bad dry fly fishing habits on Sunday.   — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

If you let Waldo have the beer BEFORE fishing, you gotta drag him around by his groaty old waders all day.

I always wondered how you spell "groaty". Regards, Jeff

Response:

If you let Waldo have the beer BEFORE fishing, you gotta drag him around by his groaty old waders all day. I always wondered how you spell "groaty".

G  R  O  A  T  Y Groady, on the other hand, is spelled with a d. Wolfgang W  O  L  F  G  A  N  G

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am, I guess, a newbie in many respects. I’ve owned a fly rod since 1990 or so, but have only begun fly fishing (almost) exclusively this summer.  I grew up here in central PA (Clinton Co.) fishing with spinners and salmon eggs.  I can usually catch trout quite successfully in PA streams with a Panther Martin spinner…  This is my first summer fly fishing in PA. I am woefully inept with dry flies, 95% of my fly fishing experience being in Alaska, where the notorious ‘egg hatch’ is the only hatch worth worrying about.  Of the remaining 5%, 4% is pond fishing with small poppers for bass/crappie/bream in NC and 1% has been this summer here in central PA.  Due to this experience my casting is awful (I can roll cast REAL GOOD) and I have no idea which flies to use when. So far, my luck with dry flies has been not so great.  I caught two chubs a couple of weeks ago, and I’ve gone through several leaders and plenty of tippet material trying to catch a trout.  I was surprised by the chubs–I never even considered the possibility of catching a chub on a dry fly.  Or catching chubs at all, for that matter. I only know two people that fly fish, and neither of them very seriously.  One, my aunt’s husband, probably hasn’t fished in 5 years or more.  He may have been fairly adept at it at one time but he no longer seems to have any interest.  The other, the husband of a friend of the same aunt, hasn’t been fly fishing for very long and he is strictly a nymph fisherman. So I’m hoping that one of you ROFFians can help me…  Or maybe you just know somebody who might.  Anybody who fishes in the Centre/Clinton/Lycoming county region who would be willing to throw away a few hours of their time giving me a few pointers would be a blessing.  Hell, I’ll bring the food AND the beer. Just to keep you from digging up my ‘ROFFians: who the hell are these folks?’ post, I am: 33 years old. White. Male. 5′11". 240lbs. (I carry it well, ha ha) Married. (with child, a 15 month old girl) Employed. (Systems Consultant, i.e. glorified computer sales guy) Homeowner. (100-year old Victorian house that requires a LOT of time) I can listen to almost anything, music-wise, but prefer rock-n-roll. I don’t have the most flexible schedule (see above), but I am available practically every weekend.  Saturday or Sunday–no preference here. Penn’s Creek, Spring Creek, Fishing Creek, Kettle Creek, Pine Creek, wherever.  Let’s go fishing! Thanks, Tom Before you buy.

Response:

I am, I guess, a newbie in many respects. I’ve owned a fly rod since 1990 or so, but have only begun fly fishing (almost) exclusively this summer.  I grew up here in central PA (Clinton Co.) fishing with spinners and salmon eggs.  I can usually catch trout quite successfully in PA streams with a Panther Martin spinner…  This is my first summer fly fishing in PA.

(woes and travails of the flyfisher snipped) Tom – Contact me be email and I’ll see if I can help.  A bit limited in my activities these days – at least for the short term – but let’s see. Mark Faulkner

Response:

Question:

For four months in the mid seventies I lived in a tool shed and ate mostly what I could forage from the surrounding woods and fields.  

When I was a kid my brother and I had to hike 10 miles to school each way. It was tough in the winter. A hungry pack of wolves would follow us, and we had to watch out for those wild Indians with their bows and arrows. At least, that’s what I tell my kids, who won’t drink any water but Evian. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

I don’t suppose it depends upon the scales? — Mr.Gink "the saga continues"   http://www.gink.com/rod_facts/bastardjul00.html

Response:

When I was a kid my brother and I had to hike 10 miles to school each way. It was tough in the winter. A hungry pack of wolves would follow us, and we had to watch out for those wild Indians with their bows and arrows. At least, that’s what I tell my kids, who won’t drink any water but Evian.

City boy<g. Why when I was in school… — Charlie…

Response:

At least, that’s what I tell my kids, who won’t drink any water but Evian.

Show ‘em Evian spelled backwards…and then make ‘em pay it themselves…<G. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

At least, that’s what I tell my kids, who won’t drink any water but Evian. Show ‘em Evian spelled backwards…and then make ‘em pay it themselves…<G.

Really. One time I filled an Evian bottle with tap water and put it back in the refrigerator. My wife and kids never noticed the difference, but man were they pissed. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

So, how would one go about actually helping someone directly who is actually hungry or poor when one doesn’t know any such people?

Not sure whether you are really asking how to help them or how to find them.  In either case I can only answer…..huh?

Response:

So, how would one go about actually helping someone directly who is actually hungry or poor when one doesn’t know any such people? Not sure whether you are really asking how to help them or how to find them.  In either case I can only answer…..huh?

Think of some of the things we’ve been talking about.  Scam artists who pose as poor, out of luck people.  Poor people who will not take charity.  Basically I’m someone who’s decided not to give money to charitable organizations (through a third party).  (I’ve done *work* for charitable organizations.) But, I’d happily buy a meal or give a gift to a poor family if I could find people who are actually poor and would accept something without finding me condascending.  This has happened to me, but the more I think about it, not often enough.  How do you find a person truly in need, and how would you actually approach them? Regards, Jeff

Response:

When I was a kid my brother and I had to hike 10 miles to school each way.

You had schools???  We used to sleep in a shoe box, and had to get up a half hour before we went to bed.  For breakfast we got a lump of cold poison. At least, that’s what I tell my kids, who won’t drink any water but Evian.

And you know what that spells backward….  :-) Regards, Jeff

Response:

Think of some of the things we’ve been talking about.  Scam artists who pose as poor, out of luck people.  

Giving money to panhandlers is the equivalent of feeding the bears at Yellowstone Park. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

If somebody only had a good drink, and in some poor way managed to forget his problems for a while ( not a solution I would generally recommend however), then it was worth the money. Perhaps it did him more good than a meal. Who knows?

Maybe so.  But I would still gladly buy a poor person a meal but not give money to some guy who profits from the transaction.  And I would rather buy someone a meal than give them the money.  It just pisses me off when I get scammed.  Just 2 weeks ago a guy in the parking lot of a supermarket told me his car broke down and he had to get his wife and daughter back home on the bus that night, so could he have enough money to pay for the 3 tickets.  As I was pondering this, it finally dawned on me that this was the same guy I gave money to almost exactly a year before, with the exact same shpiel (shp?) So, how would one go about actually helping someone directly who is actually hungry or poor when one doesn’t know any such people? Regards, Jeff

Response:

<good story snipped Nice story Mike.  Hopefully you will post this one to your website. bc. — Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -Benjamin Franklin

Response:

"Mike Connor"     In my youth, I was a member of one of those families who "simply had nothing."  I was 5 and I remember this old guy, he must have been 10 or 11 who would come to our back door on a Saturday morning with a sackful of potatoes.   He’d scavanged them from the ground under the conveyor belt at the processing plant.  Some times I was in the back garden as he dropped them off, most times they just appeared.  He took keen interest in what I was doing, whether building a house with twigs or staging a war with my toy soldiers.    You, that kid with the potatoes and millions of other anonymous souls around the world are the ones that allowed many of us to grow up and escape that poverty.  You live day by day and finally, with a little help, things start to improve, opportunities open up and you make the best of them. Those of us who’ve been there cannot truly express our thanks to you in the way it should be given, so we attempt to put something back into those neigborhoods of our youth.     However, when the light shines on one of those giving souls, they are caught, as those fish you caught.  You have now become a proxie for that "old guy" of my youth.  I want to personnally thank you for your effort and caring.  Thank you friend.                                         Frank Reid

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Frank,    I grew up in the 1930’s and my family didn’t  have very much either.  No matter how little you had you could always find someone who had less.  One of my friends lived with his grandmother and I went with him every week to meet the welfare truck to help him carry anything he might be lucky enough to get.  I remember one week he got a crate of oranges.  I skinned my shins against the box as we carried to his home and I wondered how you could live on oranges for a week. Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Mike Connor"     In my youth, I was a member of one of those families who "simply had nothing."  I was 5 and I remember this old guy, he must have been 10 or 11 who would come to our back door on a Saturday morning with a sackful of potatoes.   He’d scavanged them from the ground under the conveyor belt at the processing plant.  Some times I was in the back garden as he dropped them off, most times they just appeared.  He took keen interest in what I was doing, whether building a house with twigs or staging a war with my toy soldiers.    You, that kid with the potatoes and millions of other anonymous souls around the world are the ones that allowed many of us to grow up and escape that poverty.  You live day by day and finally, with a little help, things start to improve, opportunities open up and you make the best of them. Those of us who’ve been there cannot truly express our thanks to you in the way it should be given, so we attempt to put something back into those neigborhoods of our youth.     However, when the light shines on one of those giving souls, they are caught, as those fish you caught.  You have now become a proxie for that "old guy" of my youth.  I want to personnally thank you for your effort and caring.  Thank you friend.                                         Frank Reid

Response:

Surprisingly enough Ernie, you can live for a week or even considerably longer, on more or less nothing. Problems arise when this continues for long periods, and one is forced to eat stuff that one would not normally touch. I remember all too well the first time my mother brought home a "bucket of scraps" which was all we had in the house for several days.  "Scraps" are the remains of fish, chips, batter etc soaked in lard, which are scraped out of the large frying pans used in fish and chip shops when they are cleaned. A bucket full cost a couple of pennies, and there was often a queue for this stuff.  I only ever ate the stuff a couple of times, but I can taste it still, and even the smell makes me feel ill.  I can not stomach even entering a fish and chip shop to this day, and I remember my wife being very surprised when we visited London once and she wanted to try fish and chips, and I simply could not stay in the queue which had  formed at the counter, as I was in severe danger of throwing up.  This sort of thing plays hell with peoples health as well.  It may not have appeared so in my story, but I was indeed one of the lucky ones, I had the means and the drive to go and catch fish, "find" "wayward" sheep, and even go and dig up "wild" potatoes or vegetables, or collect fruit and stuff in summer,  should this prove necessary. I also collected seacoal and wood, from the beaches, so we always had something to burn in winter, which was much more than many others had, and we never actually got anywhere even close to starving or freezing.  Although some I knew got close to it. Many of the people I knew at that time were sunk so deeply in apathy as a result of their poverty, that they could not help themselves, and even under those conditions, some were far too proud to accept "charity".  What little money they received from various sources, usually social security or similar, was often wasted in vain attempts at momentary escape from their respective plights, or even astoundingly enough,  pathetic attempts at "keeping up the show". Drunkenness was common, and many a wife and child beating took place, when some men lucky enough to have them, came home from their jobs late on a Friday night, after having drunk most of their relatively meagre pay in the local pubs. They were often also poorly educated, reviled by other sections of the community, and generally treated like dirt. Poverty is a deadly disease, it saps ones energy, removes any perspective of improvement for many, releases large amounts of criminal energy, mostly driven by hopelessness, and the feeling that things can get no worse anyway, whatever one does, often induces a positive fear of authority, and inevitably results in an early grave, as it did for both my father and my mother, and many many others I knew at that time. It may also reveal facets of human nature that are not normally obvious, not all of which are negative. A little kindness may cost a man of means virtually nothing, but may go a very long way to helping somebody far less fortunate. The world would be a far better place if some were bound to wonder as you did, how one may live on oranges for a week, and then consider those who did not even have the oranges, and in many places still do not. One of the reasons I so loved angling and anglers, as I still do, was because I met more "gentlemen" of a kind, honest, and helpful nature while doing it, than I have ever met anywhere else, I can not remember any of them being otherwise really, although of course they were all different in their ways.   Fortunately this is still the case as far as most are concerned, and is certainly the case here on ROFF. One of the reasons I enjoy it so much, and why it is worth defending.  This may sound a little overboard to some, but I believe it is so, and I am not ashamed to say so. TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Frank,    I grew up in the 1930’s and my family didn’t  have very much either.  No matter how little you had you could always find someone who had less.  One of my friends lived with his grandmother and I went with him every week to meet the welfare truck to help him carry anything he might be lucky enough to get.  I remember one week he got a crate of oranges.  I skinned my shins against the box as we carried to his home and I wondered how you could live on oranges for a week. Ernie

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Mike,    I can understand why you would dislike fish and chips to this day. I had some at Ramsdens (sp?) in Northern England which were excellent. Ernie "Mike Connor" wrote <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I remember all too well the first time my mother brought home a "bucket of scraps" which was all we had in the house for several days <snip TL MC

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One of the reasons I so loved angling and anglers, as I still do, was because I met more "gentlemen" of a kind, honest, and helpful nature while doing it, than I have ever met anywhere else, I can not remember any of them being otherwise really, although of course they were all different in their ways.   Fortunately this is still the case as far as most are concerned, and is certainly the case here on ROFF. One of the reasons I enjoy it so much, and why it is worth defending.  This may sound a little overboard to some, but I believe it is so, and I am not ashamed to say so. TL MC – .

And, indeed, Mike, you honor us all by doing so.  You certainly do not need my encouragement to continue your course, but you have it, nonetheless. Bravo! Tom — Tom Brown Wake Forest, NC

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Perhaps we are just perverse?

At the risk of having Ernie thump me on the head again I will repeat something I posted some time ago on ROFF.   It has been my experience that to most in America being hungry means trying to remember the last time you missed a meal.  In fact, being hungry means trying to remember the last time you HAD a good meal. Who’s perverse?

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An excellent analysis.  One other point occurred to me. Referring to a particular group of society as "the poor", is one of the reasons why people find it easy to avoid any identification with those so afflicted, it is easy to forget that we are talking about people here,  and the word itself is a stigma. As for many politicians, well I think it probably better to refrain from comment, waste of time anyway. Hardly seems worth the trouble criticising people who mainly appear to tell lies, and manipulate others for a living. If somebody only had a good drink, and in some poor way managed to forget his problems for a while ( not a solution I would generally recommend however), then it was worth the money. Perhaps it did him more good than a meal. Who knows? I have not been hungry for a very long time either, but curiously enough, just like you, I remember exactly what it was like. In fact I remember it far more clearly than any of the times I have been ripped off, (also uncountable I fear),  or sat at sumptuous meals in equally sumptuous surroundings. Perhaps we are just perverse? TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

money to someone to buy him a decent meal and see him lying drunk in the – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – gutter a couple of hours later.  Don’t know how many times this has happened or how much it’s cost me but I STILL haven’t been hungry since 1975.

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Cold, the rattling noise was caused by my teeth chattering loudly, as I shivered uncontrollably yet again.  Cheap anoraks and jeans are not really all that efficient at keeping one warm,

        (snip)         simply amazing.  very, very few of us have ever been to that place. wayno

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Well, to paraphrase: Give a boy a fish and he feeds himself, teach him to fish, and he feeds a village… TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Secondly, if you want to know how much a fish is worth, wait until you and your family are hungry, and carry a sackfull on your back to feed them. This will doubtless colour any subsequent ideas you might have on the matter considerably. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

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Thanks for that little dose of reality – a good reminder is a neccesity these days. Peter

So would a speller checker on this newsreader!!! Peter

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When I read both your posts, I couldn’t help thinking of some of the politicians today who consider the poor to be cheats and slackers, not worthy of help.

I think part of the problem is that there *are* a few cheats and slackers, making it difficult to know which are which, even if the cheats are relatively few.  This is especially a problem since the people of means to help the poor are usually don’t live in close enough proximity to be able to figure it out on their own on a day-to-day basis.  I’ve personally been ripped off enough times that now I only volunteer my time and effort, never money.  I wish it were different. Regards, Jeff

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When I read both your posts, I couldn’t help thinking of some of the politicians today who consider the poor to be cheats and slackers, not worthy of help. I think part of the problem is that there *are* a few cheats and slackers, making it difficult to know which are which, even if the cheats are relatively few.  This is especially a problem since the people of means to help the poor are usually don’t live in close enough proximity to be able to figure it out on their own on a day-to-day basis.  I’ve personally been ripped off enough times that now I only volunteer my time and effort, never money.  I wish it were different.

Yes, there are cheats and slackers and no, it’s not part of the problem.  There are cheats and slackers in congress, in corporate offices, in academia, in churches, and in every other segment of society.  No one wants to dismantle any of these and no one thinks seriously about punishing them all for the sins of the few.  I repeat, it’s not part of the problem….it’s a different problem.  You are right about one thing; the people with the greatest means to help the poor generally do not live in close proximity.  Even when they do though, it is generally not the people with the greatest means who do the most to help.  Must be afraid of getting ripped off……might make them late for dinner. For four months in the mid seventies I lived in a tool shed and ate mostly what I could forage from the surrounding woods and fields.  I lost over forty pounds in that time and spent most of my time doing virtually nothing for lack of energy or incentive.  This is not a lament.  Unlike many millions of people around the world (and even here in the richest country in the history of the world) I always had options.  Eventually, I availed myself of an opportunity to get plugged back into the mainstream.  I have never been truly hungry since 1975, but I remember.  I’ve been ripped off lots of times since then….given money to someone to buy him a decent meal and see him lying drunk in the gutter a couple of hours later.  Don’t know how many times this has happened or how much it’s cost me but I STILL haven’t been hungry since 1975.

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[reality snipped] When I read both your posts, I couldn’t help thinking of some of the politicians today who consider the poor to be cheats and slackers, not worthy of help.  Our current premier once remarked that single welfare mothers spend their money on beer.  One of his first acts was to substantially reduce both welfare payouts and eligibilty, putting many people onto the street.  He’s now out to privatise co-op housing – putting more on the street.  I can’t help thinking that a week of subsiting on a bucket of scraps would help his perspective immensely. Thanks for that little dose of reality – a good reminder is a neccesity these days. Peter

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Cold, the rattling noise was caused by my teeth chattering loudly, as I shivered uncontrollably yet again.  Cheap anoraks and jeans are not really all that efficient at keeping one warm, pulling the collar up around my neck once more, I snuggled into the corner of the life-belt storage cupboard, and tried to think warm.  Walking the six miles or so along the clifftops and climbing down to the pier had kept me warm enough, and I had not really noticed how cold it was, but I was noticing now alright! Climbing up the icy steel pier legs in the pre-dawn dark with my gear had even caused me to start sweating, and I was paying for that now too. Cold sweat is very cold indeed.  Frosty clouds formed every time I exhaled, and the freezing spray from the stormy sea had soaked me fairly well through from the other side of my clothing as well. Nobody else was on the pier, quite unusual, as the tides were quite propitious, and the recent storms would almost certainly have brought some cod or whiting, and perhaps a few other fish closer in.  Leaving my temporary shelter, I moved out into the full force of the wind and spray, and surveyed the scene, dark clouds, swirling angry seas, and a long procession of heavy breakers crashing against the pier, causing it to  sway ominously under my feet.  Occasional banks of freezing fog rolled rapidly landwards, driven by a capricious but powerful wind, with clear patches now and again, allowing one odd glimpses of the land, and the cliff head, often covering the pier slipway, obliterating it, and making it seem as if one was standing on a tower with no land connection. Although dawn had broken, the weather was such that this was by no means apparent, it was still fairly dark, and it took me half an age to get my "storm-lantern",which consisted of a candle in a milk bottle with holes drilled around the bottom,  going, so that I had enough light to assemble my gear. This piece of equipment also did sterling service as a hand warmer. High tide was not for another two hours, but with freezing fingers occasionally warmed on the milk bottle, I painfully started to assemble my gear anyway.  Seven feet of solid fibreglass rod, an ancient wooden "Scarborough" centrepin reel with a hundred yards of forty pound line, an eight ounce lead, and a trace on which was mounted a set of three of my latest "secret weapons". Most of the blokes I met on the pier and elsewhere invariably laughed when seeing this for the first time, some kindly souls even offering me bait and other stuff, which however I always declined.  After a while, quite a few got to know me, as I literally haunted some venues when the fish were there, and was treated like a "regular", although even at that tender age I was considered eccentric, I was twelve at the time.  Not everybody knew my name, and many referred to me as "that fly-tying lad", not unkindly, but in that certain way that suggested I had at least a couple of screws loose.  Nobody actually tapped their foreheads, at least not in my presence, but I often got the feeling that they were about to. Fly-fishing at that time was something which the "gentry" did, and they did not do it in Winter in the North Sea. Standard procedure for serious sea anglers at the time was a multiplying reel, thirty to forty pound line, a minimum four ounce lead, and large baits, usually  consisting of lugworm, ragworm, peeler crab, herring strips, mussels, or various combinations of these. One or two hook rigs were used, these were cast out, the rod was put in a stand, or leaned against the pier railings etc, and a bite was awaited. Some clipped small bells on their rod tips and went to sleep while awaiting such a serendipitous event, others wandered around talking to their mates, smoking and drinking tea, or other "fortifying" beverages, often requiring them to make mad dashes down the length of the pier when their bells rung, and their rods threatened to go over the side. More well to do anglers, had "radium" lights, which were filled with luminescent radioactive gas, cost a veritable fortune, and were screwed or clipped to the rod tip. Occasionally some unfortunate would bugger up a cast, or forget to remove his clip light from his rod before casting, and the light sailed off into the distance, often accompanied by a cracking sound as the terminal tackle followed it on its way to the watery depths, which in turn was accompanied by a steady stream of inventive and colourful profanity, often to the amusement and elucidation of all present, especially some of the younger lads, who presumably laboured for some considerable time under the misapprehension that "fucking" and similar equally unprintable epithets had something to do with radioactive tip-lights. Someone chucking a bell away was not nearly as enlightening for bystanders, and elicited rather less interest. Some inevitably became curious about my gear, especially if I had caught a bagfull on my "hairy fancies" as one gentleman once described my flies. My intention at that time when fishing, was invariably to catch a bagfull, and that in the cheapest and most efficient way possible. My family, and not a small number of my neighbours, depended on it for a decent dinner.  Having had some success with flies in freshwater, I had turned my attentions to the North Sea, as the fish were usually bigger, and there were a lot more of them. Bait was difficult to acquire, and was far too expensive to buy, so I had resolved to try "fly-fishing" there as well. This particular set of "hairy fancies" were made up of 3/0 Mustad stainless steel "beak" hooks, wrapped with silver tinsel, and sporting "wings" of various coloured bucktail.  My technique was quite simple, albeit somewhat strenuous. With a  two or three step "run-up", a whirl very similar to that performed by a hammer thrower,  and a mighty twisting overhead heave, usually instilling considerable fear and amazement in the hearts and minds of any innocent bystanders, especially those who used "normal" gear, even in those who had seen it before, putting an awe inspiring bend into the old solid glass rod, the heavy wooden centrepin was forced into revolving at a speed for which it was never designed, producing thereby the most amazing noises, faintly reminiscent of a defective differential gear, or a rusty dungeon door being swung at high speed. This despite regular applications of fat to the "bearing", the while being braked by the thumb of my right hand to prevent the otherwise inevitable and horrendous "birds nest",  and the "flies" hurtled out, carried by the eight ounce lead, to land with an almighty splash, which could be heard even in the worst of storms and gales, as it was rarely more than about forty yards away when it struck the water. Which circumstance however had the pleasant side-effect of always assuring me plenty of room, even when the pier was crowded. My "flies" were then retrieved at various speeds and in various modes, until I caught a fish.  This happy event occurred surprisingly often, much to the chagrin of those who had previously laughed, and who notwithstanding their veritable armouries of wonderful and often expensive equipment had still not caught anything. Fortunately nobody was frightened half to death on this occasion, as there was nobody there. Having assembled my gear, I essayed my first cast of the day. This cast was always of the utmost importance, and had to be executed with considerable care, in fact the first few casts had to be done in such a way, as otherwise a jam up was quite likely, and the loss of expensive terminal gear inevitable. A careful and relatively modest thirty yard cast was the order of the day. Having accomplished this, I took up the slack, and placing the line over my right index finger, the butt of my rod tucked under my elbow, and my left hand supporting it by holding the rim of the reel, I started a jigging retrieve. Thump! and thump! again, heaving back on the rod I struck, and proceeded to haul in a couple of lively fish, beautiful whiting well over a pound each. These were hauled straight up the thirty foot drop by winding in, despatched, unhooked, and the next cast was prepared. In all the now well over forty years I have been fishing, I have never had a session like I had that day, and I will never do so again, as nowadays I would cease to fish after getting a few good ones.  The fish were there, a large shoal of hungry whiting and they were biting like crazy, I was hauling up two or three fish every cast, some really nice sized ones as well, but all were at least sizeable. Even in those days I was an optimist, and I had brought two large sacks with me and a polythene bag, which was actually designed to be used as a makeshift raincoat should the weather be really nasty.  I filled both sacks and the bag, and continued to fish like a lunatic, the pile of fish on the pier behind me continued to grow apace, but still I carried on, as if in a trance. Several people had now come on to the pier which had opened in the meantime, and stood watching, some started fishing, but I was oblivious to everything, and continued almost mechanically hauling up fish after fish. . Some time after mid-day I came to my senses, and viewed the carnage all around me.  I reeled in my gear and started gutting and filleting fish, several people asked if they might have a fish, and I told them to help themselves.  For several hours I filleted fish like a madman, emptying the sacks and the bag again on to the boards, and filleting those too,and even after filleting everything, and throwing all the guts and even the heads away as well, something I would not usually have done, as they made excellent soup, I still had two large sacks full of solid fish fillets, which I could only just lift. It took me almost seven hours to get home, and was well after dark  long before I got there. Carrying one sack a few hundred yards along the beach, dumping it, … read more »

Response:

Question:

Tony, Thanks for the tip. Do you know if Bonda PU Power Adhesive can be purchased in the USA? Thanks. Bob E.

Bob, it is available here from a few companies. The brand I’ve used is called Gorrila Glue. Woodworking supply stores will have one brand or another. Use this stuff carefully, it is messy and does not clean up easily. Bob Smith Before you buy.

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If it air cures, does that mean it will take a very long time to cure since the adhesive will be buried between cork and graphite?

Hi Mu, I think ‘cures’ rather than ‘dries’ is the operative word. The adhesive reacts to the moisture in the air or in the material being glued. It probably wouldn’t hurt to dunk the cork handle in water for a few minutes, then pat dry the excess water, before using this PU adhesive (see article in link below). I think Bob Smith has a better handle (’scuse the pun) on this than I have. Thanks, Bob, for your input. But try this for more info: www.woodworking.com/magazine/jul96/poly/ I’ll certainly be giving this stuff a trial for my next rod building project. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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I was very interested to learn that his company now recommends a polyurethane adhesive. This stuff requires no mixing. It air cures, reacting to moisture in the air or in the timber, etc. that is being joined. Most importantly, this adhesive ‘foams’ slightly and fills up any space between the cork and the blank, where the reaming has not been exact.

If it air cures, does that mean it will take a very long time to cure since the adhesive will be buried between cork and graphite? Mu

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In article <Pine.SOL.4.10.10003122128550.5607- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was very interested to learn that his company now recommends a polyurethane adhesive. This stuff requires no mixing. It air cures, reacting to moisture in the air or in the timber, etc. that is being joined. Most importantly, this adhesive ‘foams’ slightly and fills up any space between the cork and the blank, where the reaming has not been exact. If it air cures, does that mean it will take a very long time to cure since the adhesive will be buried between cork and graphite? Mu

Mu, the glue will dry as fast as the stated time on the label. A little faster if the surfaces to be glued are slightly damp. Moisture helps it cure. You only put the glue on one surface of the two to be glued. I use this stuff in my woodworking the rare times I have to glue up two dissimilar surfaces. Wood to metal or Corian etc. So it’ll work well for handles to fly rods.  Two things tho. It is not reversable and if you get any on bare ( bear ? ) skin you’ll have a nice dark brown stain to wear for a week or so. Nothing cleans this stuff up. Tape off the rod blank also at front and rear of the handle. The foam also sticks to anything it touches.  Bob Smith Before you buy.

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Tony, Thanks for the tip. Do you know if Bonda PU Power Adhesive can be purchased in the USA? Thanks. Bob E. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We had a club meeting the other night and I bumped into an old acquaintance who is managing director of one of the leading wholesale suppliers of top quality cork rod handles in the UK. I first met him at a fly fishing show about 10 years ago and that meeting prompted me to write an article on cork that was published in one of our game fishing magazines. During our conversation the other night, the subject of gluing cork handles to blanks cropped up. I was very interested to learn that his company now recommends a polyurethane adhesive. This stuff requires no mixing. It air cures, reacting to moisture in the air or in the timber, etc. that is being joined. Most importantly, this adhesive ‘foams’ slightly and fills up any space between the cork and the blank, where the reaming has not been exact. Apparently, this PU adhesive is slightly resilient and works easily. My friend assured me that this stuff was much better suited to the application than epoxies, that are often recommended. The brand he sells is called ‘Bonda PU Power Adhesive’ and it sells (here) for about

Question:

        without regard to where you are staying, in or out of cabins, i need your mailing addresses, asap.  i know some of you have sent same earlier, but i am lazy, and need them organized in a single source.  in return you will receive an incredibly informative package concerning clave geography and itinerary, prepared at a nominal charge by the vast and efficient staff of little wayno’s outfitters (we never close).         thanks         for the firm         wayno

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        without regard to where you are staying, in or out of cabins, i need your mailing addresses, asap.  i know some of you have sent same earlier, but i am lazy, and need them organized in a single source.  in return you will receive an incredibly informative package concerning clave geography and itinerary, prepared at a nominal charge by the vast and efficient staff of little wayno’s outfitters (we never close).         thanks         for the firm         wayno

       http://www.rodbuilder.com  ______  Mr. George Gehrke / President                 Gehrke’s Fly Fishing Products                 Snake River – Hell’s Canyon                 Asotin, WA 99402                 509-243-4100 or 5500                 FAX-243-4644 Your place or mine?

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Wayno wrote :i need your mailing addresses, asap. Big Dale Dale Wilkinson 6533 Caddo Court Plano, Texas 75023-2902

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Question:

Hello Ken, This is something I’ve been doing quite a bit in the last couple of years. I’m certainly no expert, but here are a few thoughts.. For tackle I recommend a fairly stiff 8 weight rod with a Lamson reel.  You can get away with Pfleuger or a Scientific Angler but they’ll require more care and aren’t as smooth.  Use 20 lb. dacron backing.  Nothing your going to hook is going to run that far.  Even a big red usually stays within 100 yds of where he was hooked so you don’t need Bonefish gear. This rig will handle bass, redfish, speckled trout and the occasional flounder.  You’ll have to deal with wind.  Just the way it goes.  Try the Scientific Anglers Mastery series Wind Cheater line.  Helps a bit.  I also use a slow sinking line a lot and it’s a bit easier to cast into the wind.  I’d go with the Wind Cheater to start with.  Takes some of the edge off of being a beginner. The single most effective lure for me is a chartreuse/white Clouser minnow. Works on Reds and Specks under most circumstances.  Later you can go with some crab patterns for Reds and some Seaducers and Leftys Deceivers for Specks. Don’t discount Crazy Charlies either.. great under the lights for Specks. There are other patterns.. Roadkills, different shrimp imitations, but if you head out with half-a-dozen Clousers and a couple or lighter streamers, you’ll handle most of what you encounter. Is this what you wanted to know? Andy Schreckenghost Houston TX – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am new to fly fishing and in need of information for fishing in the coastal bend.  For instance reel and rod recommendations.  I hear that the wind is a consideration when fishing in the bay. I would appreciate any information. Thank you, Ken Clay

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I am new to fly fishing and in need of information for fishing in the coastal bend.  For instance reel and rod recommendations.  I hear that the wind is a consideration when fishing in the bay. I would appreciate any information. Thank you, Ken Clay

Response:

Question:

As I am a rookie to this sport, bare withe me on this question. I understand how and why the leader is to be attached to a floating line, but what function does the tippet serve? Do you/should you always use a tippet with leader? I am guessing there must be specific leader size to tippet size you need to use in combo? Any information on this is very much appreciated. John

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John,         The tippet merely extends the leader to allow for material loss during the changing of flies.  It preserves the integrity of your leader. Use the same size tippet as the X# of your leader, or one size smaller if you want to extend your fly range a bit. Tight threads, Charley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I am a rookie to this sport, bare withe me on this question. I understand how and why the leader is to be attached to a floating line, but what function does the tippet serve? Do you/should you always use a tippet with leader? I am guessing there must be specific leader size to tippet size you need to use in combo? Any information on this is very much appreciated. John

Response:

As I am a rookie to this sport, bare withe me on this question. I understand how and why the leader is to be attached to a floating line, but what function does the tippet serve? Do you/should you always use a tippet with leader? I am guessing there must be specific leader size to tippet size you need to use in combo? Any information on this is very much appreciated.

There are a number of different things that you can put between the end of your fly line and the fly.   One of the most commonly used methods is to purchase a "tapered" leader which, in essense, includes the tippet.  The tippet is basically defined as the last section of line upon which you tie your fly.  After changing flies several times you’ll use up much of the end section of the leader to a point where the diameter of the line is too big and/or the leader is too short.  At that time you can tie some "tippet material" (basically monofiliment that is a smaller diameter then the rest of your leader) so that you can keep using the leader portion. Some people make their own "tapered" leaders by tying short sections of progressively smaller diameter line together.  The smallest diameter section is the tippet and can be replaced when needed. One of the latest "innovations" is a braided loop leader.  A loop of braided material is attached to the flyline using a "chinese finger puzzle" type connection with some shrink wrap tubing.  The braided loop leader is a 6′ section of tapered monofiliment with a braided loop on one end.  That is looped through the loop on the flyline and then all you need to do is tie on 3′ or so of whatever pound test line that you’d like to the end of the leader for your tippet.   — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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As I am a rookie to this sport, bare withe me on this question. I understand how and why the leader is to be attached to a floating line, but what function does the tippet serve? Do you/should you always use a tippet with leader? I am guessing there must be specific leader size to tippet size you need to use in combo? Any information on this is very much appreciated. John

A tippet is the last part of the leader.  On new tapered leaders, it is the last approximately 20 inches.  This is quickly used up tying on new flies, so it must be replaced with another from a tippet spool. You can vary the length and size of the tippet according to conditions (fly size, currents, water clarity, etc.)  The idea is to have the tippet land between straight out (too heavy or short) and piled up (too light and long): with slight curves to allow a drag-free float, and the right amount of slack to set the hook.  There is no rule to achieve this, although dividing the fly size by four is a good place to start the trial and error process. Jim Benenson Los Alamos, NM "To save your rivers, save your mountains" Emperor Yu of China, circa 1600 BC

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As I am a rookie to this sport, bare withe me on this question. I understand how and why the leader is to be attached to a floating line, but what function does the tippet serve? Do you/should you always use a tippet with leader? I am guessing there must be specific leader size to tippet size you need to use in combo? Any information on this is very much appreciated. John

John – Leaders used for fly fishing are tapered.  They begin thick and end thin.  The higher the "X" number, the finer the end will be. Therefore, a 9 foot,  4X leader will be very thick where you attach it to the fly line, and will taper down to a specific diameter.  That diameter of line at the end of the leader is what "4X" means.  The first tapered leaders were made up of several pieces of leader material tied together in successively smaller diameters until the desired terminal diameter was reached.  This last piece of leader is called the "tippet".  It is important, because that is the line that is closest to the fish.  You can still buy or make for yourself "knotted" leaders (I make my own), but many people prefer the newer "knotless" leaders.  But whether it is knotted or knotless, a leader still has a tippet at the end.  And as you fish and change flies, the tippet will get used up, and the leader will get too short and too thick.  So the flyfisher must be able to periodically tie a new tippet on the end of the leader, or else just replace the entire leader when the tippet is used up.  The latter option is, among other things, expensive. So what should you do?  If you are using knotless leaders, I suggest that you buy them one size larger (in diameter) than the tippet you want.  Then tie a 2-3 foot piece of tippet on the end of the leader before you ever use it.  Then you will know when the tippet is used up and can replace it before the taper of the leader is destroyed.  I suggest learning to tie the double surgeons knot to attach the tippet to the leader.  It is easier to tie and stronger than a blood knot. I hope this is helpful! Tight lines,       Gene

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This is probably fly fishing heresy, but I’ve stopped using tapered leaders altogether when fishing streamers and wet flies. I’ve found a straight piece of 4-lb. Stren just as effective for these situations and far less prone  to tangling, especially if I’m using extra weight on the leader.   Plus, I spend less time tying new tippets on the tapered leaders which I really need for dry-fly and nymph fishing.

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This is probably fly fishing heresy, but I’ve stopped using tapered leaders altogether when fishing streamers and wet flies. I’ve found a straight piece of 4-lb. Stren just as effective for these situations and far less prone  to tangling, especially if I’m using extra weight on the leader.   Plus, I spend less time tying new tippets on the tapered leaders which I really need for dry-fly and nymph fishing.

Beyond that, I just spoke to an _excellent_ nymph fisher who uses a level line 90% of the time.  He uses mostly weighted nymphs, and says the level line really turns ‘em over.  BTW, this is not a joke.  I saw a Cortland level line on his reel.. Cost: $7  Can you imagnine what this could do to the flyline market? Jim Benenson Los Alamos, NM "To save your rivers, save your mountains" Emperor Yu of China, circa 1600 BC

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Question:

I just purchased a mint condition South Bend bamboo 9′ fly rod.  Does anyone know the value of a rod like this, or know how I can find out the value.  

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I just purchased a mint condition South Bend bamboo 9′ fly rod.  Does anyone know the value of a rod like this, or know how I can find out the value.  

Len Codela of Turner’s Falls, Massachusetts can appraise it if you send it to him.  His current catalog lists South Bend rods anywhere from $100 or less to $400 or so.  There were many different levels of quality of South Bend rods. His prices are slightly high as he caters to collectors as much as fishers.  Call either 508 or 433-555-1212 to get his number I’m not sure which area code. As this is a fishing more than a collecting forum,  I say the real value is how it feels to fish.  Try out different lines with it if you can, then take it fishing.  If it sings the line out like poetry as smooth as twenty year Scotch, it’s priceless for fishing and that is it’s inspired destiny. Don’t incarcerate it. Mark Vinsel http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.html

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I just purchased a mint condition South Bend bamboo 9′ fly rod.  Does anyone know the value of a rod like this, or know how I can find out the value.  

I’ve got one of these guys.  There more valuable as a fishing tool, albeit a very heavy one, than they are collectible.  Interestingly the South Bend company was started by Wes Jordan (later of Orvis fame) though the rods produced were mediocre at best.  Still, I fish mine a couple of times a year for half a day or so (really a heavy rod).  I’d say go fish it!                                                                      Dan

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Question:

There are a lot of public access sites on the Au Sable, including all 3 branches (Mainstream, North Branch, and South Branch).  In addition to state property, Trout Unlimited has two pieces of donated property in the "flies only" stretch.  One is north of Stephan’s Bridge, on the north side of the rive, called Guides’ Rest.  The other is further west and just north of Wakeley Bridge (also on the north side) near the Thunderbird Club.       The single best source of information on the AuSable comes from the river guide that is produced for the river by the Challenge Chapter of Trout Unlimited.  In addition to maps, it includes an emergence chart for the major fly hatches.       Your Email address indicates you are on the UM campus, as I am.  You can buy one of these guides at MacGregor’s (on Main Street), or I will be happy to let you look at mine if they’re out.  Mike Traugott     – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Can anyone supply me with a few public access sites on the AuSable River System? Any proven patterns are more than welcome.

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there is a great book called "12 Classic Trout Streams of Michigan" at Border’s in Ann Arbor and at Macgregor’s, that lists access sites to the Au Sable and other streams that is really good information.

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I usually fish from Keystone Landing to Stephan Bridge on the main stream.   I haven’t had the chance to fish the south branch yet, but i think i will concentrate on it this summer.  Most of it is "match the hatch" water.  It is also a very picturesque stream, with sweeping cedars in the water providing excellent cover.  P.S. I don’t consider myself an expert on this stream, but I am just telling you what I know.  There is a "hatch hotline" you can call to see what the latest conditions are.  It’s updated everyday one the weather starts warming up, but currently it just contains general winter conditions.  the number is (517) 348-7108.  very helpful.

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