Question:

Have the white flies started to hatch on the upper Potomac yet?

Response:

Yes.  Best time is after seven p.m.  I’ve been using a "green weenie" pattern, but using white chenille vice chartreuse. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

Response:

Yes.  Best time is after seven p.m.  I’ve been using a "green weenie" pattern, but using white chenille vice chartreuse. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

Frank, it strikes me that Doc Saylor might be somebody you ought to hook up with (no pun intended) Given your propensity to do face plants and other wild gyrations while fishing, you need to make him your fishin’ buddy. Just tryin’ to keep you alive and his business flourishing. Frank Sr. who is due for two more cortisone shots in the heels. YIKES!!!

Response:

Frank, it strikes me that Doc Saylor might be somebody you ought to hook up with (no pun intended) Given your propensity to do face plants and other wild gyrations while fishing, you need to make him your fishin’ buddy. Just tryin’ to keep you alive and his business flourishing. Frank Sr. who is due for two more cortisone shots in the heels. YIKES!!!

Actually, looking for the Air Force Pararescue type. Need someone who can scale a cliff or a fish, shoot an attacking grizzly or a class V rapid to drag my ass out, repair a float tube or repair to the extraction point.  Must be qualified in white water, avalanche, and deep submersible rescue.  Should be world renown fly tyer and brewer. Now thats a fishing buddy.                  Frank (Just had cortisone next to my spine)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Frank, it strikes me that Doc Saylor might be somebody you ought to hook up with (no pun intended) Given your propensity to do face plants and other wild gyrations while fishing, you need to make him your fishin’ buddy. Just tryin’ to keep you alive and his business flourishing. Frank Sr. who is due for two more cortisone shots in the heels. YIKES!!! Actually, looking for the Air Force Pararescue type. Need someone who can scale a cliff or a fish, shoot an attacking grizzly or a class V rapid to drag my ass out, repair a float tube or repair to the extraction point.  Must be qualified in white water, avalanche, and deep submersible rescue.  Should be world renown fly tyer and brewer. Now thats a fishing buddy.

You need a dog. — TL, Tim (well, not for the fly tying and brewing but, hey, nobody’s perfect.)

Response:

You need a dog. — TL, Tim

Well, I have a dog.  I shall refer to him as "blond dog."  He is a master brewer, as a matter of fact, his output rivals Budweiser in quantity and quality.  He is afraid of bugs, terrified of the treadmill (well, thats not a bad thing), feet moving under a blanket on the bed will send him into a barking fit for two hours, often forgets to put his feet back down when jumping off of a step, gets beaten up by the cat, has more psychosis than ROFF (you must pretend that you are trying to eat his food or he will go 4-5 days without eating), his daddy was a long-haired miniture dachshund and mommy was a maltese.  So he is either a dachtese or a malhund.  I don’t need another. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

Response:

Well, I was in the Navy so I could probably call in an aircraft carrier to save you on occasion.  I’m also due to brew my sixth batch of pale ale or porter soon. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You need a dog. — TL, Tim Well, I have a dog.  I shall refer to him as "blond dog."  He is a master brewer, as a matter of fact, his output rivals Budweiser in quantity and quality.  He is afraid of bugs, terrified of the treadmill (well, thats not a bad thing), feet moving under a blanket on the bed will send him into a barking fit for two hours, often forgets to put his feet back down when jumping off of a step, gets beaten up by the cat, has more psychosis than ROFF (you must pretend that you are trying to eat his food or he will go 4-5 days without eating), his daddy was a long-haired miniture dachshund and mommy was a maltese.  So he is either a dachtese or a malhund.  I don’t need another. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

Response:

Okay, think we gotta hook up.  I do know of a couple of good spots within ten miles of Harpers Ferry.  My daughter is coming back this weekend after a month away so will stay home, but mayhaps next?  I’ll even leave off the squiddly jokes. — Frank Reid (USAF Retired) Reverse email to reply.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You need a dog. — TL, Tim Well, I have a dog.  I shall refer to him as "blond dog."  He is a master brewer, as a matter of fact, his output rivals Budweiser in quantity and quality.  He is afraid of bugs, terrified of the treadmill (well, thats not a bad thing), feet moving under a blanket on the bed will send him into a barking fit for two hours, often forgets to put his feet back down when jumping off of a step, gets beaten up by the cat, has more psychosis than ROFF (you must pretend that you are trying to eat his food or he will go 4-5 days without eating), his daddy was a long-haired miniture dachshund and mommy was a maltese.  So he is either a dachtese or a malhund.  I don’t need another.

Thanks.  Best laugh I’ve had in a week.  Nice to know someone has at least one pet crazier than most I’ve had. — rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Response:

Question:

I am wondering how anyone whom is quick to tout their educational achievements and command of the English language can justify the below quotes.  It also seems that the same poster is very quick to infer intellectual superiority often in the same post.  What level of higher education is needed before you become so proficient and diverse in the use of vulgarity?  In fact, is it not a contradiction to claim to be educated and to have to resort to vulgarity in writing and speech to convey rational thought? "Very notable was his distinction between coarseness and vulgarity, coarseness, revealing something; vulgarity, concealing something." Edward M. Foster I would like to thank Mike Connor for the following pearls of wisdom from his recent postings. "I do not go around sending badly spelled extremely ignorant and insulting posts to people I hardly know"  [I guess he knows everyone very well] "You are just a stupid ungrateful little troublemaking fucker" "you fucking numbskull." "Some of you really do seem preoccupied with spew and shit, and stuff like that." "Another intellectual cripple who wants to fight a war of intelligence. Read my lips sonny. Go and fuck yourself." "you insufferrable piece of  shit" "you are still a fucking idiot. As far as I recall, I never called you an asshole. I called you a nasty little shit." "Yet another nasty little shit reveals himself." "Do yourself a favour dickhead," "you are nothing more than a nasty little shit," "Another dumb shithead joins the pile." "What a nasty arrogant little shit you are." "You fucking arrogant shithead. Feeling left out?   Head for the shit-pile, all assholes welcome" "You really are a stupid bastard." "Most disappointing that having failed to shake the logic of my arguments, you resort to attacking me personally." J.G.

Response:

Fortenberry said all that stuff?

mercy! Mu

Response:

Fortenberry said all that stuff?

Response:

…….is it not a contradiction to claim to be educated and to have to resort to vulgarity in writing and speech to convey rational thought?

Huh? Wolfgang

Response:

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 I am wondering how anyone whom is quick to tout their educational achievements and command of the English language can justify the below quotes.

Pardon me, but I don’t think we’ve been introduced. Who the hell are you? Gentlemen, WHBT. – — "When the cruel apathy of time laughed in your face,  did you hear me say ‘each life has its place?" -Indigo Girls —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE75jMCrpli/675/DERArOLAKD6E62/D2OqrWdkQFGH5fQCpZM33wCgtx7P kOZWWqehZuDEi3ckDoco080= =Vvj5 —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

Response:

I would say he should be designated as "The Midnight Skulker" Strikes Again! Keep it a mystery Gooldy. Mr.G. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – —–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 I am wondering how anyone whom is quick to tout their educational achievements and command of the English language can justify the below quotes. Pardon me, but I don’t think we’ve been introduced. Who the hell are you? Gentlemen, WHBT. – —

Response:

I am wondering how anyone whom is quick to tout their educational achievements and command of the English language can justify the below quotes

<SNIP "Most disappointing that having failed to shake the logic of my arguments, you resort to attacking me personally." J.G.

Well, the beauty of it is, I don

Question:

Here is a sight that claims to list the "Deadly Dozen" http://www.islandroots.com/finecast/products.htm I posted the same q a while back and told all I was going to take a poll. Let me have a day to dig up those results. Jamie http://clik.to/flyfish – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are your favorite flies for fly fishing brookies?  I’ve had quite a bit of luck at times with muddler minows and a few other flies, but I’m really not an expert fly fisherman. What works best for you?  Which flies, and what type of presentation? — Richard Jackson Before you buy.

Response:

I always try to match the hatch. Watch what is in the air over the water or kneel down and grab some rocks to see what is there. Presentation: if you are trying to duplicate what is in the air use dry flies, in the water use wet flies – latter category almost always nymphs. WLM – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are your favorite flies for fly fishing brookies?  I’ve had quite a bit of luck at times with muddler minows and a few other flies, but I’m really not an expert fly fisherman. What works best for you?  Which flies, and what type of presentation? — Richard Jackson Before you buy.

Response:

What are your favorite flies for fly fishing brookies?  I’ve had quite a bit of luck at times with muddler minows and a few other flies, but I’m really not an expert fly fisherman. What works best for you?  Which flies, and what type of presentation? — Richard Jackson Before you buy.

Response:

What are your favorite flies for fly fishing brookies?  I’ve had quite a bit of luck at times with muddler minows and a few other flies, but I’m really not an expert fly fisherman. What works best for you?  Which flies, and what type of presentation?

I try to "match the hatch" whenever possible.  If I am fishing for dinner, I will open up the first one that I catch and see what it has been feeding on.  I usually start out with a stonefly or a Royal Coachman.  As you probably know, Brookies can be extremely frustrating to catch at times.  If you get one to follow or even take a swipe at your bait/fly/lure and he doesn’t take it, leave him alone and come back later and try again.  If a brookie has found a nice spot in the stream, he may stay within a few yards of that spot for months. — "Our eyes and hands and feet will give us the same assistance in doing mischief as in doing good; but it would not therefore be better for the world, that all mankind were blind and lame.  Arms are not to be laid aside by honest men, because carried by assassins and ruffians; they are to be used the rather for this very reason." -George Campbell (1719-1796)

Response:

Question:

We have 3 balloons off the back of the boat with live bait fishing for Kings.

Can anybody tell me what this means? I’m not being able to picture the balloon part. Nets? Actual balloons? Just curious–thanks. Mart

Response:

We have 3 balloons off the back of the boat with live bait fishing for Kings. Can anybody tell me what this means? I’m not being able to picture the balloon part. Nets? Actual balloons? Just curious–thanks. Mart

Sure. He’s using partially inflated balloons as "corks" to float his live baits within a certain range of the top of the water. The balloons are easy to see and when a smoker takes the bait and runs, the balloon goes under. This is a common tactic for bass fishermen, too. They’ll attach a nice live shiner to a hook, tie a balloon a couple of feet above it and let the bass gobble the shiner and take the balloon under. Balloons also present one with a way to take advantage of wind or current. There’s also kite fishing. — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Ignorance or Apathy?  I don’t know and I don’t care.

Response:

Path: lobby01.news.aol.com!newstf02.news.aol.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.

cwix.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!wn3feed!world net.att.net!135.173.83.225!attworldnet!newsadm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: rec.boats Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.77.208.219 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Classic example, I’m out on Pasco #1 off Tarpon Springs, Florida today.  We have 3 balloons off the back of the boat with live bait fishing for Kings. What pulls up behind us?  Yes a Trophy, your average dimwit, amateur within inches of our balloons.  After I had a couple of choice words with the captain (retard) we pulled off to a better area….with no Trophys around and managed to bag two keeper grouper.  So you see now why I JUST LOVE TROPHYS Rob

Rob, If he were driving a Hatteras or other mega, overpriced boat, would his move have been any more acceptable?  No, of course not. I had an Ocean Alexander skipper drift into my boat that was moored and unattended.  He hit it rail to rail and neither boat sustained much damage but do I hate Ocean Alexander boats because of it?  Not hardly. Focus your anger at the novice who didn’t know what he was doing, not at his fine, quality made, very reliable, structurly sound, efficient and absolutely beautiful boat!!! Bill Landsborough "A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions." Proverbs 18:2

Response:

Or even know how to put it on.

Excellent Nathan! Capt. Gary S. Colecchio West Palm Beach, Florida "Lie ? Me ? Never!  No, no, no, the truth is far too much fun !" – Captain Hook

Response:

By the way, there is a downside to using balloons. Many of them are discarded in the water and unfortunately some sea creatures that eat jellyfish (like turtles) snarf them down and can’t digest them. They die. This used to happen with condoms, I suppose, but no turtle with a brain would go near any of those disease-laden wrappers.

Or even know how to put it on.

Response:

Thank you. I appreciate your willingness to supply me with helpful information despite my occasional indignation at your whimsical contrarian nature. I have observed this civil trait in you repeatedly and I respect it. I think balloons and kites are beyond me, though I do like to picture showing up at my normal fishing spots with such equipment, and fastening on a fly, worm, little minnow, or kernel of corn. Mart

By the way, there is a downside to using balloons. Many of them are discarded in the water and unfortunately some sea creatures that eat jellyfish (like turtles) snarf them down and can’t digest them. They die. This used to happen with condoms, I suppose, but no turtle with a brain would go near any of those disease-laden wrappers. — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Gee, I wonder what this key does.

Response:

Thank you. I appreciate your willingness to supply me with helpful information despite my occasional indignation at your whimsical contrarian nature. I have observed this civil trait in you repeatedly and I respect it. I think balloons and kites are beyond me, though I do like to picture showing up at my normal fishing spots with such equipment, and fastening on a fly, worm, little minnow, or kernel of corn. Mart

Mart, Believe it or not, they even sell different sized kites to use depending on the wind conditions!  I don’t bother with kites, but I’ve been fishing with a guy who does and it works quite well. What Harry didn’t mention is you use the kite while drifting.  BTW, shore fishermen also use kites to get their bait out farther than they can cast… Depending on the direction the wind is blowing, of course.  :) Dennis

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sure. He’s using partially inflated balloons as "corks" to float his live baits within a certain range of the top of the water… Thanks. Same idea as the little still fishing plastic/cork/wood bobbers we sometimes use up here, only bigger and inflatable? Yes. But much more visible. It’s hard to see many corks or floats out in the ocean where the waves are. Also, by only partially inflating, a part of it slides under the water easier… There’s also kite fishing. I’ll bite on the kite: real up in the air kites? Or fishing for hawks? Mart You run out a fishing kite and then attach your fishing line with a live bait on the line. The kite keeps the bait at the surface, making those friendly struggling sounds, attracting fish. But the bait also has access to the water and can breathe. It works very well for surface feeders.

Thank you. I appreciate your willingness to supply me with helpful information despite my occasional indignation at your whimsical contrarian nature. I have observed this civil trait in you repeatedly and I respect it. I think balloons and kites are beyond me, though I do like to picture showing up at my normal fishing spots with such equipment, and fastening on a fly, worm, little minnow, or kernel of corn. Mart

Response:

Sure. He’s using partially inflated balloons as "corks" to float his live baits within a certain range of the top of the water… Thanks. Same idea as the little still fishing plastic/cork/wood bobbers we sometimes use up here, only bigger and inflatable?

Yes. But much more visible. It’s hard to see many corks or floats out in the ocean where the waves are. Also, by only partially inflating, a part of it slides under the water easier… There’s also kite fishing. I’ll bite on the kite: real up in the air kites? Or fishing for hawks? Mart

You run out a fishing kite and then attach your fishing line with a live bait on the line. The kite keeps the bait at the surface, making those friendly struggling sounds, attracting fish. But the bait also has access to the water and can breathe. It works very well for surface feeders.

Response:

Sure. He’s using partially inflated balloons as "corks" to float his live baits within a certain range of the top of the water…

Thanks. Same idea as the little still fishing plastic/cork/wood bobbers we sometimes use up here, only bigger and inflatable? There’s also kite fishing.

I’ll bite on the kite: real up in the air kites? Or fishing for hawks? Mart – - – - – - – - – - – - "One morning when the wind was from the west, Stuart put on his sailor suit and his sailor hat, took his spyglass down from the shelf, and set out for a walk, full of the joy of life and the fear of dogs."

Response:

Classic example, I’m out on Pasco #1 off Tarpon Springs, Florida today.  We have 3 balloons off the back of the boat with live bait fishing for Kings. What pulls up behind us?  Yes a Trophy, your average dimwit, amateur within inches of our balloons.  After I had a couple of choice words with the captain (retard) we pulled off to a better area….with no Trophys around and managed to bag two keeper grouper.  So you see now why I JUST LOVE TROPHYS Rob

Maybe he wanted to transfer his flag to your boat in case his began to sink? — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Accordion: a bagpipe with pleats.

Response:

Classic example, I’m out on Pasco #1 off Tarpon Springs, Florida today.  We have 3 balloons off the back of the boat with live bait fishing for Kings. What pulls up behind us?  Yes a Trophy, your average dimwit, amateur within inches of our balloons.  After I had a couple of choice words with the captain (retard) we pulled off to a better area….with no Trophys around and managed to bag two keeper grouper.  So you see now why I JUST LOVE TROPHYS Rob

Response:

Question:

And rental of self-guided rafts ought to be prohibited.  If an experienced private rafter wants to bring his own boat, fine, but these yahoos who think they know what they’re doing, then get pinned at River’s End and take up private boaters’ time (none of the raft trips — even from the company whose name is on the pinned raft — stop to help) and require ropes across the channel, endangering other users.  Message to private boaters: STOP RESCUING THESE RAFTS!  Rescue the people, ferry them to river left and show them the bicycle trail; they’ll get home safely, and if the dam’ raft companies have to pay their own employees to come out and unpin the suckers, they’ll stop renting them pdq.

I hear where your coming from on this Richard.  And many times I feel the same way.  But, quite a few times I have rented rafts, shredders and duckies and brought people down the L.Yough.  I ahve brough some kids down that could not afford to go if I had not paid for the raft and done it myself.  So I do like the opportunity to be able to rent this equipment.  In the otherhand  I have a relatively large amount of experience on WW and this river. I don’t know what the solution is.  Maybe an amatuer guide license that is good for a five year period? What do RPB’ers say? Dan

Response:

Isn’t swimmers rapid the only place on the lower yough where people intentially go in for a swim?   How many play holes are there on the lower yough?  The answer seems obvious to me.  Let the people that want to swim enjoy the river too and go play in a whole that doesn’t have people swimming through it.

How many? Lots. How many that are anything like swimmers? One. I have never perceived it to be much of a problem.  I guess someone could get hurt, but I bet it is fairly rare.  I don’t think the risk of death or serious injury are significant there. Pete

Response:

Was that meant to be a provocation or just an accidentally stupid comment?

Response:

Isn’t swimmers rapid the only place on the lower yough where people intentially go in for a swim?   How many play holes are there on the lower yough?  The answer seems obvious to me.  Let the people that want to swim enjoy the river too and go play in a whole that doesn’t have people swimming through it.

I find this answer unsatisfying.  It would seem to indicate that the swimmers have more of a claim to the spot than paddlers; I don’t think either should be given a preference, and that they should share the spot.  However, it’s difficult to share it *safely* when swimmers arrive en masse, sans helmets, with no warning.  (Just as it would be difficult to share it safely *if* paddlers didn’t wait their turn, etc.) Given that most boaters are accustomed to waiting in line there anyway, I think just letting them know that swimmers are coming would alleviate much of the potential problem.  But that’s easier said than done. (For those who don’t know the Lower Yough: Swimmer’s is *the* preferred spot for a number of reasons: it’s roughly halfway through the trip and makes a good spot to play as well as to have lunch and watch others; it’s a riverwide shallow-entry hole which is easy to get into and not too hard to get out of; and probably most importantly, it’s followed by some waves and a pool but not the usual piles of boulders, making recovery of boaters, boats, and equipment easy.  For a lot of paddlers, it’s the first hole of any size that they find themselves in, with friends waiting below to pick them up if they goof, and others encouraging them from the bank.  It is the only hole with all of these features (that I’m aware of) on the Lower Yough.) —Rsk Rich Kulawiec

Response:

When a kayaker is playing in Swimmers, it is nearly impossible to see a human head and life jacket bob by (bob by out of control)  The question is then :  Is it safe for a person to intentionally jump in the water in front of a spinning kayak and continue downstream toward that kayak, virtually invisible and out of control?  Of course that is not safe.   Therefore, this should not be encouraged by rafting companies. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid.  It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep.  This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid.  First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it.  I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Isn’t swimmers rapid the only place on the lower yough where people intentially go in for a swim?   How many play holes are there on the lower yough?  The answer seems obvious to me.  Let the people that want to swim enjoy the river too and go play in a whole that doesn’t have people swimming through it. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy. What kind of policy can the AWA enforce for someone that wants to swim in the river?   Suppose that hole was the best flyfishing spot on the river and flyfishers had to wade to get to it.  Would you propose a "policy" to keep flyfishers from enjoying the river as well? John Fereira

Response:

Paul – Your situation is very different than the Lower Yough.  I have no problem with *guided* raft trips; it’s the unguided ones, that OC1 says to leave the rafts hanging.  Help the people – leave the rafts.  Unfortunately, it’s cheaper to rent an unguided raft for the customer, and probably more profitable for the rafting company than the guided trips.  I like the idea of making these unguided rentals more costly for both sides. – Mothra  (aka Kathy Streletzky) "No man can enter the same river twice,for the second time, it is not the same river he is not the same man. – Anonymous" Acutally by Heracleitus of Ephesus (thanks, Retendokid) via a Dinty Moore short story        

Response:

WHAT ANOTHER BUREAUCRATIC LICENSE? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And rental of self-guided rafts ought to be prohibited.  If an experienced private rafter wants to bring his own boat, fine, but these yahoos who think they know what they’re doing, then get pinned at River’s End and take up private boaters’ time (none of the raft trips — even from the company whose name is on the pinned raft — stop to help) and require ropes across the channel, endangering other users.  Message to private boaters: STOP RESCUING THESE RAFTS!  Rescue the people, ferry them to river left and show them the bicycle trail; they’ll get home safely, and if the dam’ raft companies have to pay their own employees to come out and unpin the suckers, they’ll stop renting them pdq. I hear where your coming from on this Richard.  And many times I feel the same way.  But, quite a few times I have rented rafts, shredders and duckies and brought people down the L.Yough.  I ahve brough some kids down that could not afford to go if I had not paid for the raft and done it myself.  So I do like the opportunity to be able to rent this equipment.  In the otherhand  I have a relatively large amount of experience on WW and this river. I don’t know what the solution is.  Maybe an amatuer guide license that is good for a five year period? What do RPB’ers say? Dan

Response:

Another brilliant suggestion by OC1: STOP RESCUING THESE RAFTS!  Rescue the people, ferry them to river left and show them the bicycle trail; they’ll get home safely, and if the dam’ raft companies have to pay their own employees to come out and unpin the suckers, they’ll stop renting them

I don’t know if I’d go so far as to say brilliant.  The situation up here is different, in that the most rafts I ever been passed by in one day is about six, and ALL the commercial companies put guides in their rafts.  (Actually there are other companies that will rent rafts, but they’re not right at the river, since there isn’t much market for them. They have to be in a city, and cater to people going to different rivers.) Notwithstanding that, if I ran across a pinned raft, I’d probably give them a hand, even if just to practise my own rescue skills. Now, if I were running into pinned rafts every day, I’d probably run out of the need for practice, and follow OC1’s advice.  Having said that, I don’t think it would make any difference on a river like the Yough.  If the raft companies had to go out and rescue their rafts, they’d just start charging a rescue deposit.  You pay an extra $100 when you rent your raft, and if you return it all in one piece, you get the money back.  If the company has to send someone to retrieve it, you don’t.  Would such a deposit have an effect on people’s safety?  Would they try harder to avoid trouble (I doubt it), or would they risk themselves unnecessarily in the event they do get their raft pinned (possible)? -Paul

Response:

Another brilliant suggestion by OC1: STOP RESCUING THESE RAFTS!  Rescue the people, ferry them to river left and show them the bicycle trail; they’ll get home safely, and if the dam’ raft companies have to pay their own employees to

come out and unpin the suckers, they’ll stop renting them – Mothra  (aka Kathy Streletzky) "No man can enter the same river twice,for the second time, it is not the same river he is not the same man. – Anonymous" Acutally by Heracleitus of Ephesus (thanks, Retendokid) via a Dinty Moore short story        

Response:

Isn’t swimmers rapid the only place on the lower yough where people intentially go in for a swim?   How many play holes are there on the lower yough?  The answer seems obvious to me.  Let the people that want to swim enjoy the river too and go play in a whole that doesn’t have people swimming through it.

That’s a lot like saying boaters should give up Beat Me Daddy (Jaws) on the Nolichucky, Hellhole on the Ocoee, of Diagonal Ledges on the Lower Gauley.  Swimmers is not merely "the best" playspot on the Lower Yough, it stands head, shoulders, torso, and hips above any other.  Swimmers, incidently, is not "training" or "swimming practice", because the trip is already half over, and the #1 raft-flipping rapid is the one that leads into Swimmers (Swimmers was named by the raft companies, BTW, but I have often wondered if it wasn’t named for the unintendo swimmers that flip at Dimple?) What kind of policy can the AWA enforce for someone that wants to swim in the river?   Suppose that hole was the best flyfishing spot on the river and flyfishers had to wade to get to it.  Would you propose a "policy" to keep flyfishers from enjoying the river as well?

The post you reply to, John, is not proposing banning swimmers from the site.  The poster, Joe Hatcher, is a raft guide for Pete’s sake, and he is asking for suggestions for a safe solution to the problem he perceives, such that everyone can continue to enjoy that spot without any injuries. Joe, I’d say (and I’ve said everytime I see rafters flying out of their boats and flushing under Dimple Rock) that the solution is a helmet law.  I don’t know if the raft companies charge extra rental fees for helmets, but I believe they do for wetsuits.  ALL that stuff ought to be provided — reguired, except for wetsuits in July and August — to every customer. And rental of self-guided rafts ought to be prohibited.  If an experienced private rafter wants to bring his own boat, fine, but these yahoos who think they know what they’re doing, then get pinned at River’s End and take up private boaters’ time (none of the raft trips — even from the company whose name is on the pinned raft — stop to help) and require ropes across the channel, endangering other users.  Message to private boaters: STOP RESCUING THESE RAFTS!  Rescue the people, ferry them to river left and show them the bicycle trail; they’ll get home safely, and if the dam’ raft companies have to pay their own employees to come out and unpin the suckers, they’ll stop renting them pdq. — Richard Hopley, concise and to the point, as always. OC-1; Rockville, Maryland, USA, BBM; (301) 330-8265 Monocacy Canoe Club, Blue Ridge Voyageurs, Canoe Cruisers’ Ass’n, Greater Baltimore CC, Coastal Canoeists, Rhode Island Canoe/Kayak Ass’n, Carolina CC, Tennessee Scenic Rivers Ass’n, ACA, and AWA Note 1: To send me eMail, remove ".NoSpam" from my address Note 2: Sometimes I just forget to type that smiley-face emoticon. Note 3: Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock’n'Roll.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (For those who don’t know the Lower Yough: Swimmer’s is *the* preferred spot for a number of reasons: it’s roughly halfway through the trip and makes a good spot to play as well as to have lunch and watch others; it’s a riverwide shallow-entry hole which is easy to get into and not too hard to get out of; and probably most importantly, it’s followed by some waves and a pool but not the usual piles of boulders, making recovery of boaters, boats, and equipment easy.  For a lot of paddlers, it’s the first hole of any size that they find themselves in, with friends waiting below to pick them up if they goof, and others encouraging them from the bank.  It is the only hole with all of these features (that I’m aware of) on the Lower Yough.) —Rsk Rich Kulawiec

Rich is right!  This is a hole that is probably one of the best, anyplace, to teach boaters how to sit up and control thier boats in a side surf.  I can body surf into the hole and stand up in the foam pile.  I can stand there and have less experienced boaters paddle into the hole, grab hold of them and stabilize them.  I can then instruct them on how to sit up properly and how to place thier paddle and how to work to the river right seam and use it to spin and switch paddle size. If they go over, I can many times right them quickly and stabilize them and give them a chance to breath and feel relaxed.  They then can choose to try it again or go back to the eddy.  I stand in there and help people in Duckies get 360’s when it is there first time in a river.  My son at 13, could go in without a paddle and be anyplace he wanted in the hole, and spin whenever he wanted.  Now I don’t let him get in without me there to make it more challenging for him other wise he may become a hole hog.  Can’t allow that.  Just as long as boaters know swimmer are coming and swimmers are wearing helmets, there are no problems with swimmers and boaters in this hole.  Plenty enough room and time for both. Dan

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Problem First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough.

        With all of the extremely stupid regulations that the Peoples Republic of Pennsylvania has for that park (no beer, launch times, water level restrictions), you’d think that helmets would be mandatory.

Response:

I am surprised the raft companies would do this in the first place. Swimming in a river, with current, is always hazardous.  Foot entrapments, hidden strainers and the like are always a possibility. Swimming through a hole also has it’s hazards, surfing kayaks just being one of them.  I am also sure that the insurance companies that insure the raft companies would not be too pleased with the raft companies ‘advising’ customers to swim.

I spend very little time on the Lower Yough, so can’t speak to this particular site, but we have swim spots on the New, Cheat, Upper and Lower Gauley.  Our insurance companies are very aware of the practice and help to provide the guidelines we use when swimming our guests.  As has been discussed in another thread, a controlled and instructed swim in a relatively safe rapid can be a real asset for someone who later finds themselves swimming unexpectedly.  These rapids have all been swum by thousands of raft guests over the years, so any hazards would have presented themselves by now.  Remember that out your way you’re dealing with much colder water, which can be an important factor.  Here it makes sense. Dave Bassage

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To:   Roger Lynn Safety Chair Colorado Whitewater Association Being on the "Safety Chair" of a WW Association, I’m supprised you haven’t heard of or can’t see the benafits of a comercial "guest", or anyone else, swimming a rapid as part of their safety training to prepare for a raft trip.   Of coarse it should be in a controled situation (no kayaks surfing the hole) with prudent safety precautions and with the guests in the proper atire.  I’d suggest; vest, helmet, footwear and any other cloathing that was prudent. I Saw Dave Bassage noted that the water may be colder in Colorado than out East but, I would assume and recomend that guests on a raft trip or anyone boating the river for that matter, should be dressed for a swim anyway. I’m not trying to be rude or "in your face" but, what is the Colorado whitewater Association anyway?  It has to do with boating… right? Your post supprises me as I thought this was a common practice.                                                        Jake " OVER FORTY…… IT’S ALL DOWN RIVER FROM HERE "

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well, now… mebbe a good first step would be to put HELMETS and GUIDES with some of them there raftin’ folk… DUH!!! sheesh! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid.      It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep.      This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid.      First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it.  I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid.  It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep.  This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid.  First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it.  I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done.

Isn’t swimmers rapid the only place on the lower yough where people intentially go in for a swim?   How many play holes are there on the lower yough?  The answer seems obvious to me.  Let the people that want to swim enjoy the river too and go play in a whole that doesn’t have people swimming through it. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.

What kind of policy can the AWA enforce for someone that wants to swim in the river?   Suppose that hole was the best flyfishing spot on the river and flyfishers had to wade to get to it.  Would you propose a "policy" to keep flyfishers from enjoying the river as well? John Fereira

Response:

Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid.  It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep.  This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid.  First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it.  I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.

Response:

Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed.

In reference to our previous post.  We have rude kayakers that screw up to. All groups have problems. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid. It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep. This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid. First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it.  I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done.

Cooperation. A month or so ago I was at Surfers Rapid on Section 4 of the Chattooga (sc and GA USA)  I was with about 5 other hard boats and we where trying to cartwheel the hole.  A group of rafts came down and they beached.  The customers all got out and stood on the rock.  We played for a minute then I paddled up to the guide.  He asked if we could get in the eddy for a minute to let some of his customers come down.  He sent between 8 and 10 and then we all took a trip in the hole.  He sent the next batch and we got in the hole again.  We took turns and had no problems whatsoever.  If we all realize that we have no more rights to be there than anyone else then thing get along fine.  It is when one group decides they have special rights that problems arise. Scott Bristow – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.

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First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough.

I obviously don’t know the river section but I’m surprised at this. Surely, even on easy water this should be compulsory. No? Jez — "What happened while I was talking to the fish?"

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1) Put helmets on all river users.  This is a bit of a no-brainer.  Big time liability on the part of any rafting company or guide who has clients swim in rapids or into traffic without helmets. 2) Assign a traffic cop/raft guide with a whistle to stand on shore at the play spot and coordinate the use equitable use of the hole.  It works well on the Ottawa.  Again, big time liability for any rafting company or guide who has clients swim into traffic without taking reasonable actions to control the traffic. Richard Culpeper – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid.  It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep.  This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid.  First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it.  I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.

Response:

On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid.  It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep.  This is also a great spot for raft companies

Ten deep is crowded? Man, I’ve been on the Ocoee too much….. Fester

Response:

I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.

I am surprised the raft companies would do this in the first place. Swimming in a river, with current, is always hazardous.  Foot entrapments, hidden strainers and the like are always a possibility. Swimming through a hole also has it’s hazards, surfing kayaks just being one of them.  I am also sure that the insurance companies that insure the raft companies would not be too pleased with the raft companies ‘advising’ customers to swim. Just my two cents. Roger Lynn Safety Chair Colorado White Water Association http://www.earthnet.net/~cwwa

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Seems to me it would be tough living with it if I were the Raft guide who let or suggested his or her customers to swim the rapid when there were possible hazzards (kayaks playing in hole) there. My suggestion would be if there were kayaks there, fin someplace else. Not that it’s an ideal situation but, it’s kind of a "right of weight" thing.  Swimmers should avoid contact with kayakers (by not swimming there when kayaks are there, and as their GUIDE, you shouldn’t let them) like kayakers avoid your raft when you come down the rapid.  You don’t wait in the eddy above the rapid till the hole is clear before going down in a raft do you?  I think you figure they’ll get out of my way I have the "right of weight".                                                    Jake " OVER FORTY…… IT’S ALL DOWN RIVER FROM HERE "

Response:

First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. I obviously don’t know the river section but I’m surprised at this. Surely, even on easy water this should be compulsory. No?

Well, you and I might agree that it should be so, but it’s not. Two of the more popular rivers for whitewater rafting in the eastern USA are here in Pennsylvania: the Lehigh and the (Lower) Youghiogheny. At normal flow levels, the Lehigh is II+, the Yough is III+; both are drop-and-pool rivers and both have an awful lot of boulders in them. (At high water, the Lehigh is easy III, with lots and lots of waves; the Yough starts taking on some IV characteristics and the pools, especially in the first mile, start to disappear.) On the Lehigh, nearly all raft trips that I’ve seen have been accompanied by guides: sometimes in the rafts, sometimes in duckies, often in kayaks. On the Yough, many of the raft trips that I’ve seen have been UNguided. Rafters are given a safety talk, PFD’s and paddles and rafts, and a waterproof "map" of the rapids and sent downstream.  I find this astonishing, given that there are a few places on the Yough that are known to cause safety problems for the untrained and even some of the trained (the undercut at Dimple; the foot entrapment spot in Cucumber). In neither case are they given helmets — I sat below Pipeline on the Lehigh at 2000 CFS a month ago and watched a guide working on a rafter’s head; her hair was a bloody mess, but she seemed to be relatively okay.  Whether the wound came during a swim or from a paddle, or something else, I don’t know — but I think a helmet would have probably prevented it. Contrast this with West Virginia, just to the south, where (unless I’ve had the statute misquoted to me) rafters are required by state law to wear helmets anytime they’re in III or above. No compliance incurs a fine for the rafter, the guide, and the company. I often wnoder what goes through the mind of rafters as they watch us go by.  Do they notice that we look like we know what we’re doing and that *we’re wearing helmets*?  Do they then ask their outfitters the obvious question? On the issue of Swimmers on the Lower Yough, I’ve been concerned about accidentally hitting a swimmer as well, especially because I paddle a slalom boat whose ends are quite pointed and could really hurt somebody.  It would probably help matters a lot if the raft guides (when there *are* guides) would send one of their number down to the hole and coordinate traffic with a counterpart up at the jump rock so that everybody can take their turn. I don’t mind sharing or waiting for my turn; I do mind being put in a situation where I suddenly find that I may be endangering someone even though that’s the last thing I’d ever want to do. —Rsk Rich Kulawiec

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I play at Swimmer Hole on the Lower Yough quite frequently with my children.  I have had my daughter at 6 years old swim through it with me.  We all get into it and body surf it. I do not let my children swim through the rapid without a helmet.  I have been body surfing the hole and had a kayak come in with me.  I was more in the foam and he was about to knock me out of the wave so I grabbed the back of his boat and "seal" slid over him and we both kept on surfing.  no prolbem because we were both wearing protection.  Helmets. I am always amazed how raft companies can send people down without helmets.  Last time I was there (about 4wks ago) I saw some company guide butterfly bandaging some womans head at the bottom of Double Hydraulic Rapid.  She would not have needed that care if she had a helmet.  She would also look nicer without the Frankenstien stitches on her forehead. It irritates me that the Park Service will not let me run Ohiopyle Falls (an easy drop) but will allow hordes of unskilled, inexperienced people treat the Yough like a Disney World Ride ride and not wear the proper safety equipment.  So many times I have pulled families out of messes with my low volume boat, or advised families to get out and scout rapids.  One family with a father, mother, 14 yr son and 12 yr daughter were all over the river.  The daughter and mother were scared silly.  I suggested that they get out and look over Dimple and maybe let the mother and daughter walk.  The father was quite irritated with me.  I think I accidentaly stepped on his realm of power control and machismo. The mother and daughter complained until they let them out and the father and son proceeded to flip the raft on dimple. I want the ability to rent rafts privately at the L. Yough so I can take people down safely and have a good time.  But I am worried that too many people are allowed, and encouraged to get themselves into messes that could result in me loosing the privledge to privately rent a raft.  Half the time it seems like the guided trips (one or two guide rafts, maybe a safety boater kayak with many unguided rafts) that have the most injuries. It is a great river for improving skills for intermediate paddlers and a great place to give people a good whitewater experience.  but you need to wear helmets. Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid.  It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep.  This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid.  First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it.  I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.

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Question:

<Snip  You may want to underline it by one size.  In any case, try some lines on it and see what works best for you in the way of line weight…as the rod will probably throw several line sizes…but with a different action etc. Barry

I would concur with this idea.  In fact, I did just that on my South Bend mod. 59.   The rod’s rated for a 6 weight, but I use a DT5 on it and it casts great.   The rod has a stout "bass action", but I can cast dry flies with noticeably greater speed, pinpoint accuracy, and the delicacy of a two weight.   IOW:  Try it! Good luck… Homey

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<snip Wes Jordan (of Orvis fame) was the master rod builder at South Bend when your rod was probably made.  He started there in 1926.  The Model Number 47 describes the rods action.  In this case, a stiff or Bass Action.   100 series rod were light action, 300 series rods were considered Dry Fly action.

<snip again Al Manchester NH Still fishing a South Bend 359

Hi Al, If the numbers indicate the action, where does the model 59 fit in to this scheme? Just wondering… Homey

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If the numbers indicate the action, where does the model 59 fit in to this

scheme? Just wondering…<BR Hi Homey South Bend made most if not all of thier rods in thee actions. Bass Action model numbers with   *xx* Wet fly or Trout  modle numbers with   *1xx* Dry Fly Action modle numbers with *3xx* This is for the three piece rods. The rods all had the same hardware and wraps, only the taper was different. So a modle 59 would be a fast action rod, a 159 would be a slow or wet fly action rod, and a 359 would be a dry fly action rod – medium to fast. The modle 59’s were made, depending again on the handle and sticker sometime after 1936 and originaly sold for $5.00 to $9.35. If the rod has a grip that has distinct lines in it, and a thumb rest, called by South Bend a Comficient Grip ( comfortable and efficient ) it was made after 1939, which is when South Bend first started using these grips.  The reel seet will also give a clue as to the rods age. You can pick these rods up pretty cheep, around $125 to $150 and they are ok casting tools and good old everyday rods.  I have an 8 1/2 ft  359 that I have completely redone with modern hardware.  It is a fun nymphing rod.  Although it is a bit heavy.  There isn’t much collector interest in Sout Bend rods it seams becasue they were mass produced, made on milling machines and the sections came from different culms of bamboo.   But so were many other companies rods.  Some big names too that just might shock some people.  It is interesting to read in Wes Jordan – Profile of a Rod Maker, his attention to detail and quality when he was at South Bend.  My personal opinion is that these rods are somewhat undervalued and one day just might get some recognition.  This is in part becasue Wes Jordan always worked for a company, and never produced rods under his own name, so the lack of recognition follows..  For right now, if you want to have some fun fishing cane for a not a lot of money, a South Bend rod just might be the ticket.  You can fish them as is, or, if they are in need of some work, replace the hardware with modern stuff and have a decent cane rod.  The ferrules are the keys, make sure you have a good fit and that they are tight to the cane.  My 359 throws a DT 5 very nicely, mends well, and if I fall down and brake it, well, it’s not a Leonard or a Payne.   Mike Sinclairs book, Bamboo Rod Restoration has a chaper in it in South Bend rods, and has some good advice for those wishing to refinish or even resore an old rod.  For $25.00 it is not a bad refference to have around. Well, see, you asked a simple question and got me started )  Hope this helps. Al

Response:

Some years ago I acquired a South Bend No. 47 split cane rod. It is a nine feet long, three piece rod in a cotton rod bag, and marked in the ‘old’ line ratings as suitable for HCH.C or GBF lines. It came with(and still has) a spare top section. I was hoping someone might be able to give me a little history of the rod, in particular over what time was it made, and what would be its equivalent modern line ratings. The present management of South Bend was unable to help. The rod was previously owned by a well known Australian fisherman and tackle dealer named Hank Newman, now dead for some years. Thanks Peter Barda

Response:

(snip) I was hoping someone might be able to give me a little history of the rod, in particular over what time was it made, and what would be its equivalent modern line ratings. The present management of South Bend was unable to help. The rod was previously owned by a well known Australian fisherman and tackle dealer named Hank Newman, now dead for some years. Thanks Peter Barda

Which model of rod is this?  I believe South Bend made several models/price ranges/quality etc.  Also…if memory serves me correctly, the line size that you mentioned is about an eight weight.  The HCH signified a double taper line and the GBF a weight forward.  This was back when they marked line by diameter….and not just weight.  Today’s lines are categorized by weight….as you know.  By the way, my first fly rod was a South Bend rod that my dad gave to me.  I wish I still had it. One other comment on line sizes for old bamboo rods….  Back in the "good old days", we accepted a slower action than is now standard in most rods. Consequently, you may find that the recommended line size is too heavy for your casting style on the South Bend rod.  You may want to underline it by one size.  In any case, try some lines on it and see what works best for you in the way of line weight…as the rod will probably throw several line sizes…but with a different action etc. Barry

Response:

Some years ago I acquired a South Bend No. 47 split cane rod. It is a nine

feet long, three piece rod in a cotton rod bag, and marked in the ‘old’ line ra0tings as suitable for HCH.C or GBF lines. It came with(and still has) a spare top section.<BR I was hoping someone might be able to give me a little history of the rod, in

particular over what time was it made, and what would be its equivalent modern line ratings. The present management of South Bend was unable to help. Peter, Your rod was made sometime after 1936.  If you could describe the grip and the decal,  I could date it much more acurately for you.  It it has the Comficient Grip, with a gold decal, it was probably made after1939.  If the decal on the grip is a yellow rectangle, the rod was made sometime after WWII. Wes Jordan (of Orvis fame) was the master rod builder at South Bend when your rod was probably made.  He started there in 1926.  The Model Number 47 describes the rods action.  In this case, a stiff or Bass Action.   100 series rod were light action, 300 series rods were considered Dry Fly action.  The HCH refers to a modern DT 7 and GBF is the equivilent of a modern WF8.  The rod sold for around $10.00 to $15.00 depending on when it was made.   A good refference for South Bend Rods is Michael Sinclair’s Bamboo Rod Restoration Handbook and Dick Spur’s and Gloria Jordan’s Wes Jordan – Profile of a Rod Maker.  Gloria Jordan still lives in Manchester Vt and runs a fly shop there. Hope this bit of info helps. Al Manchester NH Still fishing a South Bend 359

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Question:

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I would like to know if there is any good flyfishing in NewEngland Jan,Feb,March.

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Matty Boy, I response to your query, I may only speak for Vermont.  The fishing for steelhead and browns can be good but it is unpredictable.  Lewis Creek, the Lamoille and Upper Connecticut are all options when a cold snap is followed by a warm-up.  Your timing has to be right on for it to be productive in terms of fish caught.  Otherwise it could be thought of as being productive in a character-building sense alone. James Ehlers Underhill, VT

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I would like to know if there is any good flyfishing in NewEngland Jan,Feb,March.

As I’m sure others will comment, the swift river in central Mass is a very popular winter fishing site.  The fishing is directly below the Quabbin Reservoir just outside of Belchertown.  If the weather isn’t arctic (i.e. reasonably calm and 25 Degrees or more) there will likely be a midge hatch going on.  The key to matching the hatch is size 24 midge patterns with a dark green thread body.  Lots of big fish, very hard to hook and harder to land.   Stay Warm and keep the ice off of your line! Randy

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[some deleted] But the attitude by these anglers was" I caught and released that fish on a real artificial fly (probably a chartreuse egg pattern with attractant sprayed on it ) with a  2 lb tippet. So I must be a better sportsmen then the guy in the lawn chair." This is nothing but alot of Crap in my book.

I sense and share your frustration Mike.  Hang tough and keep up the good work. TimW

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The driving force behind  this definition was to eliminate the use of premolded scented baits (berkely power eggs) that were LEGALLY artificial until January of this year.

That is definitely a point we have to keep in mind. The message that started this thread made all sorts of dire pronouncements that any artificial material would be prohibited in fishing. As several people pointed out, that pretty much eliminates steel hooks, synthetic yarn, nylon monofilament leaders and much of what we use to fish with. It’s also the exact opposite of what was really being proposed. Let’s leave off the alarmist garbage and deal with the real issues. The worm fisherman is no more or less holy than we of the exalted fly genre. Different people enjoy different types of fishing and different waters require different regulations. The real question is whether Power Eggs(tm) and the like constitute some sort of unfair advantage in certain waters or are conducive to higher mortality through deep hooking. That’s presumably why we pay big bucks to marine biologists to set these policies. — |     Liberty Communications — Spreading the Word     | |                Michael P. Thompson                   |

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snip The real question is whether Power Eggs(tm) and the like constitute some sort of unfair advantage in certain waters or are conducive to higher mortality through deep hooking. That’s presumably why we pay big bucks to marine biologists to set these policies.

snip I’m not sure I understand the concept of "unfair advantage" when it comes to fishing.  The first thing that came to mind was some fly fishermen being upset about bait working better (I know that’s not what you meant Michael). Ross Wilson

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Mike, I think there’s no doubt that a 3-inch Power Tube is an "artificial" under the new regulations. If it were less than 1.5 inches it would not be an artificial. After thinking more about your posts, however, I guess I’ve come around to your view that the new regs won’t cover a variety of possible situations, especially ones where there is scented material made part of a lure or fly over 1.5 inches long. Best wishes.  Jeff

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Let’s leave off the alarmist garbage and deal with the real issues. The worm fisherman is no more or less holy than we of the exalted fly genre. Different people enjoy different types of fishing and different waters require different regulations.

Except the worm fishermen doesn’t lobby, pressure, or persuade those that we pay the big bucks to exclude the flyfishermen from their preferred methods of enjoyment. respectfully, Mike Miller

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if it weren’t for the greedy flyfishing industry, this would not even be an issue..IMHO..protectionism… TimW

Greed……no doubt, but I suspect more than just the Fly – fishing industry regards, Mike

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Ok Jeff, so answer this question please, Can you or can you not fish with a 3" BERKLEY POWER TUBE? regards, Mike

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if it weren’t for the greedy flyfishing industry, this would not even be an issue..IMHO..protectionism… TimW Greed……no doubt, but I suspect more than just the Fly – fishing industry

Why would any other group *care* about a flyfishing only definition ? TimW

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if it weren’t for the greedy flyfishing industry, this would not even be an issue..IMHO..protectionism… TimW Greed……no doubt, but I suspect more than just the Fly – fishing industry Why would any other group *care* about a flyfishing only definition ? TimW

The driving force behind  this definition was to eliminate the use of premolded scented baits (berkely power eggs) that were LEGALLY artificial until January of this year. Spinney Mountain Res. was the focus of much of the debate.  As you probably know Spinney is managed as "Gold Medal" Water with artificial  fly & lure only tackle restrictions and a one fish over 20" bag limit and the canyon  recently had Gold Medal regulations extended to the dam. My reference to purists, elitists, attitudes comes from experience fishing these waters and a witness to the debates over the issue at the commission meetings. On opening day 1995 at Spinney, there was a gentlemen fishing with power eggs. He had brought along the lawn chair and 4 young children. This guy caught about 6 trout that day on his chartreuse colored power eggs allowing each of the kids an opportunity to bring one in. He kept one and as far as I could tell no  harm came to the fish he released. But this guy came under heavy and constant critizism from the crowd (who were primarily fishless) because in their *holier than thou minds* he was a scondrel for using such a bait (although technically he was not breaking any laws.) Now, I will not dispute the fact that PASSIVELY fishing such a bait will probably kill alot of fish that by law have to be released. But at Spinney I have witnessed many a fine fish played to exhaustion, kept out of the water for extreme periods of time, (for the picture ceremony)  dropped on the rocks a couple of times, drug along the bank in the sand, and kicked back into the water because it was only 19 7/8" long. But the attitude by these anglers was" I caught and released that fish on a real artificial fly (probably a chartreuse egg pattern with attractant sprayed on it ) with a  2 lb tippet. So I must be a better sportsmen then the guy in the lawn chair." This is nothing but alot of Crap in my book. regards, Mike Miller

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I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this. The intent of the Colorado’s definition of what constitutes an *artificial* fly or lure was simply to eliminate scented baits, such as power baits & eggs.  Unfortunately the wording is very confusing and I think the C.D.O.W. doesn’t totallly understand what they have said. It will probably be un – enforceable except for the obvious infractions.

I was surprised (not pleasantly) to notice that Mike Miller was the only one of the many who commented on this who seemed to have actually read the regulation. Most others assumed that what Paul had "just heard" was the gospel truth, then proceeded to denigrate the DOW for being so asinine. It is pretty obvious that very few contemporary fishing flies could be tied without using artificial or synthetic materials. Even rayon thread would be prohibited by such a regulation. Besides, it would be virtually unenforceable and bad for public relations. To prohibit artificial material from an artificial lure such as a fly is counter to the whole idea behind bait regulations. They generally seek to limit the use of live bait and artificial substances which simulate live bait (such as power bait, etc.). It would not make sense for anyone to prohibit the use of artificial materials in an artificial lure. People would have to start carving their bass plugs out of wood again. My point is, on the face of it, this "report" of what Paul had "heard" is not credible and needs to be checked out before we go griping about what stupidity the DOW is currently engaged in. — |     Liberty Communications — Spreading the Word     | |                Michael P. Thompson                   |

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J Let’s not forget that what they are *trying* to do is to find a J definition that excludes powerbait and its related "scented lure" J products. A good point.  Trying is the operative word here and sloppy legislation does not a good bill make.  Having lived in Denver for two years, I applaud setting waters aside for bait (power bait, although synthetic, is still bait IMHO) and artificial approaches. Heck, I _enjoy_ bait fishing once or twice a year for stockies. As a lifelong redneck I have drown my share of worms and crickets and defend anyone’s right to do so. It is up to the folks at wildlife to make sure that catch and keep does not endanger wild fish. Well, there’s my opinion anyway. But thanks for your post!      Trey Monroe

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For example, I’ve fallen in love with the Stimulator this year… it has brought some very large fish to shore.  Why?  Is it a caddis imitation or a stone fly imitation?  I say neither… it’s probably that orange piece in the front of the fly that looks like a Salmon Egg to the fish.  A Stimulator doesn’t closely imitate anything in the water, but sure catches some large fish.

A salmon egg floating on the surface being eaten by what? The Stimulator has the classic profile of both fluttering caddis and stones. Further, how does your egg theory explain the success of the same fly with olive, peacock, and tan thorax regions?

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: A salmon egg floating on the surface being eaten by what? The Stimulator : has the classic profile of both fluttering caddis and stones. Further, : how does your egg theory explain the success of the same fly with olive, : peacock, and tan thorax regions? For me, they haven’t been nearly as effective as the orange color.  And I’m not certain the color triggers anything near a salmon egg… perhaps it looks like a big eye.  My point is that there are better imitations of the things you mention, but the Stimmy works well, often better. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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if it weren’t for the greedy flyfishing industry, this would not even be an issue..IMHO..protectionism… TimW

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Someone who has the new regulations, please read them and tell me if a 1.6 inch artificial Power Worm is artificial under the new regulation. My reading suggests that they are to be considered "artificial"

This issue arose at Spinney Mountain on opening day 1996, several individuals were using 3" Berkley Power Tubes. They looked identical  to other tube jigs (i.e. gitizits). The State Parks law enforcement officer  explained to me that according to his instructions they were lega, stating they were over 1 1/2". Also a DOW officer checked these fishermen and did not issue a citation or stop them from being used.   However, I contacted the DOW on this issue and at least one official said "no way, they cannot be used and that all  power bait is illegal. " As I stated in a previous post, except for obvious infractions (power eggs)  this law will be un-enforcable. Even the DOW is confused. regards, Mike Miller

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I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this.

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I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this.

No Colorado didn’t. I think I’ve heard that F&W is discussing not allowing power bait and other non-natural baits to be fished in the artificals only waters.

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I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this.

Know any suppliers of barbless *bone* hooks?? — The views expressed are my own and does not represent those of my employer.

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: I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not : use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, : it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this. Interesting, and really raises some issues.  For example, I’ve fallen in love with the Stimulator this year… it has brought some very large fish to shore.  Why?  Is it a caddis imitation or a stone fly imitation?  I say neither… it’s probably that orange piece in the front of the fly that looks like a Salmon Egg to the fish.  A Stimulator doesn’t closely imitate anything in the water, but sure catches some large fish. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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The intent of the Colorado’s definition of what constitutes an *artificial* fly or lure was simply to eliminate scented baits, such as  power baits & eggs.  Unfortunately the wording is very confusing and I think the C.D.O.W. doesn’t totallly understand what they have said. It will probably be un – enforceable except for the obvious infractions. It says something like anything less than 1 1/2 inches long cannot be made out of *plastic* or scented material. The question that has come up is what if it is over  1 1/2 inches long  (Berkley Power Tubes for example) or if  it is under 1 1/2inches does this exclude *foam* or even plastic tube jigs (unscented)? And can you add scent to a fly or lure less than 1 1/2 "? regards, Mike Miller – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this.

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(PaulS41846) writes: I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this.

Does that mean the hook has to be made from a thorn? Steel was synthetic the last time I looked. Don Burns

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(PaulS41846) writes: I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this.

Oh Yeah! Another reason to simply quit ffing and take up something else (billiards comes immediately to mind….) With all the problems facing the resource, and the sport in general, now the gov is picking at minutea (sp?). The saddest part is that an early and powerful proponent of synth materials for flies, John Betts, lives in Denver. If there is some percieved ecological threat with these materials why didn’t they look at those GD’d foam bobbers (strike indicators) that litter our streams too! Does that mean the hook has to be made from a thorn? Steel was synthetic the last time I looked.

Good Point <G!  Sounds like our politicians are doing their best to screw everything up as usual.  Like with the Rimm Report! </chaz (not Sue)

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P I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not P use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, P it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this. Hmm, if it isn’t or hasn’t been alive and uses only sight attraction, not smell to attract fish, and you can cast it with a fly rod, that’s close enough to a fly for me. Besides, if this passes, will enforcement be forced to looking through people’s fly boxes to make sure that there is no crystal flash? What about nylon thread, rayon floss, or heavens to gimbles, micro fibbets tailing! Sounds like missplaced emphasis IMHO.      Trey Monroe

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Power Bait on the frying pan river…? Lucky Lou’s…? Getcha thumped…that’s fer sure… In practice, there is a VERY fine line (no pun intended) between a Glo-Bug and a Lucky Lou.  Or a Pittendrigh foam after a little fish slime and power bait.  Or a san Juan worm and a red wriggler.  It’s all in our heads man, that one is somehow better then the other…isn’t it ?   What is the difference between a Kastmaster and a Zonker ? TimW (In case you think that I miss the point….) I have retrieved slimy GloBugs from the gills and gullets of bleeding trout as deeply as shore chucked pautzkees. I have had wooly worms and buggers kill fish.  I have sent small trout flying into the bushes on a #14 adams on an ‘overzealous strike’.  Fish die man no matter WHAT you hook ‘em on…

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My cocern with Pike would be ythe necessity to use some sort of wire leader to defeat the teeth.   While I’ve never caught one one a fly rod I have caught them on lures and a steel leader is necessary. But what a fight it would be!

        Appropos to the pike and steel leader, last summer I was fishing off a dock in the Rideau River near here. I usually fish trout in lakes and was using a 3# tippet with a small nondescript green wet fly, about #12. I was trying for bass, I think a #7 rod and line. Anyway, I had a hard strike and very soon realized that it was no bass but a small muskie, about 36". Well, I had no expectations whatsoever of landing the fish but fought on valiantly anyway until the fish decided to go under the dock. My attempt to pass the rod under failed and I lost the fish when the line caught in the dock and the tippet-fly knot failed.         What I gathered from all of this is that the fish was hooked in the corner of the mouth and as a consequence, the teeth did not have an opportunity to touch the tippet. I have not been back to the spot again to attempt to test the theory but hope to this summer.         Earlier last year, in attempting to entice a pike in the Ottawa River, I had tied up some gaudy attractor flies on #6 X4 long shanks with a relatively fine coated braided steel snell. Even with the heaviest leaders, these were at the upper level of weight for casting and it was this experience that led me to try the Rideau without a steel tippet. —

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My cocern with Pike would be ythe necessity to use some sort of wire leader to defeat the teeth.  

I’ve caught a lot of them on flies and yes a wire leader is a necessity if you actually intend to land them. Not to say you can’t catch them without the wire, but they tend to snip off even heavy mono tippets. Keep it short, 6" or so and you should be fine. Now if you _REALLY_ want to try something scary, try them out of a float tube!!! The bigger ones are _quite_ interesting to handle in your lap! *** Lance

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Hi All. Pike on a fly rod are *GREAT*!  Here are my suggestions. 1) 7 wt or heavier.  Make sure that you have backing on the reel, and that the drag is smooth.  Trust me on this one.  Most of the time you won’t need it, but every now and then, watch out. 2) You should (must?) use some kind of a shock tippet.  Either wire or 25-50 lb mono.  I used to use about 6" tied to the end of a 0x leader. 3) Generally, use large streamers.  Sometimes the gaudy ones work, sometimes the more realistic ones.  Big muddlers are great.  Mickey Finns are also good.  Size depends somewhat on where you are fishing, but a 15" pike will be able to eat just about anything you throw at it, so size 2 or bigger is not out of the question.  Pike get much bigger than this of course. 4) Fish the streamer in sharp fast jerks along the edges of weedbeds. The strike is usually brutal, but somethimes the pike will just follow the fly right up to the point at which you make the next cast, then nail it just as you start your backcast.  This almost always loses a fly.  Oh well, it’s worth it. Have fun.  By the way, watch out for the teeth – the bites are painful. Regards, John — Dr. John G. Hardie Indiana University Cyclotron Facility

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Pike can be very interesting. Several years ago I was prowling the banks of the North Saskatchewan River (inside the city of Edmonton) and I saw a group of anglers all kind of excited. It was near noon on a bright day in June and some of the group were wearing polarized glasses. They had spotted a fair-sized Pike just hanging in the slack water just past the drop off. They had tried to get a reaction from a whole bunch of spoons, jigs and bait. The old slough-shark just hung there like in mid-air and just ignored everything.  I had a #7 fly-rod and a rather ugly- looking muddler which I had attempted to tie. I was not using any special leader or anything. I catch a lot of pike on jigs with no leader and don’t lose that many because they seem to take it on the lip. Anyway it was no big deal to cast to the pike because he was just six or eight feet from the bank. Maybe the bright light made it hard for him to see because he just basked and didn’t move. I let the muddler drift by him a couple of times and he just ignored it. I them let it drift near his nose and gave it a couple of short, sharp jerks. He nailed it. It was quite a fight. River pike just seem to have a lot more in them than the ones in our prairie lakes. He was about four pounds and a lot of fun to play. He had swallowed the fly and the leader went to the side of his mouth and missed the teeth. I would have let him go but the fly had caused some major bleeding. I gave him to one of the chinese fellows who spotted him in the first place. It is kind of neat to think that fly fishing can be the best way to take a pike. (ps If this message isn’t too clear, please forgive as it is my first posting to a newsgroup)

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You also might try some saltwater streamers, particularly Lefty’s Deceivers. And for a good idea of how to construct a steel tippet, check out a saltwater flyfishing book to see what’s used for bluefish, which have teeth even nastier than a Great Northern’s.

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Pike with a fly?

The largest "trout" I ever caught turned out to be an 11 pound Northern. I was fishing the Wolf river in Wisconsin (nymphs) and thought I had hooked a world record Brown. Great fight. Labbe

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I’ve heard that Duramax kevlar braided stuff probably won’t cut on a pike’s teeth, although it makes a crappy leader because it’s so limp. How about 2 feet of it as tippet, anyone ever used it for pike? In a few lakes out here, pike and pelicans are really doing a number on the trout populations, I’ve heard of people throwing the pike to the pelicans (when they’re of legal size, we have slot limits on pike most lakes) to feed the pelicans and reduce the number of predator fish. First time I saw a pelican in the rocky mountains, I sure did a double take… — Cray Computer Corporation    http://www.craycos.com/~ferguson/ferguson.html Colorado Springs, CO                                     Solely my opinions

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Fear not about "clarity", first poster. Your story was nice, concise, and fun! Thanks. — David A. Calderisi

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