Question:

So before you spend big $$s on tying technique books, ‘a kit’, materials you don’t know, vises, new gizmos, threads, hooks, gear, etc. contact me. There’s NO charge, NO fee. Just sound FREE advice from someone who has no affiliation to any manufacturer, catalog company, fly shop or publisher. And, if I can’t answer your question, I’ll say so!

Allan, that’s extremely nice of you and I assume that most people will take you at your word. Don’t be suprised, though, if a few people are skeptical because (1) your subject line is in all capital letters, (2) unless I’m mistaken, you haven’t posted much if at all on this newsgroup in the past, and (3) the phraseology of your post sounds a bit like one of those "too good to be true" sales pitches. Unfortunately, the combination of these three things gives your post the flavor of SPAM. I hope that’s not the case. One litmus test of whether or not someone has solely commercial interests in participating in this newsgroup is a simple examination of his or her posting habits. That said, I hope you’ll make a habit of sharing your fly tying insight with us. So here’s your first question… I’ve considered starting fly tying but can never quite justify it in my mind since I’m not sure it’s something I would enjoy. Here’s what I’d probably tie: parachute Adams, EHC, very small pheasant tail nymphs with and without bead, orange and yellow stimulators, foam beetles, yellow humpies, winged red ants, black gnats, tiny cream midges, even tinier griffiths gnats, and assorted woolly buggers. Is there one vise I can buy that will allow me to tie these flies? How much would I have to spend on supplies and materials to be able to tie these flies? –Steve

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This group appears only to be interested in advice coupled with at least a modicum of bullshit. So basically, no bullshit, no dice. The group exists for exchanging information ( and bullshit), so that everybody can participate. What is the point of going to e-mail ? If ROFF can not answer your questions, we will do it anyway. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you have a fly tying question?  I don’t have all the answers but, what I do know, I’m willing to share without any b.s..

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<< So here’s your first question… I’ve considered starting fly tying but can never quite justify it in my mind since I’m not sure it’s something I would enjoy. Here’s what I’d probably tie: parachute Adams, EHC, very small pheasant tail nymphs with and without bead, orange and yellow stimulators, foam beetles, yellow humpies, winged red ants, black gnats, tiny cream midges, even tinier griffiths gnats, and assorted woolly buggers. Is there one vise I can buy that will allow me to tie these flies? How much would I have to spend on supplies and materials to be able to tie these flies? –Steve    Very nice.  And can he field strip an M50, blindfolded? GKT

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Do you have a fly tying question?  I don’t have all the answers but, what I do know, I’m willing to share without any b.s..

        great to have you back, connelly…but there’s no need for that false name and addy! wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Do you have a fly tying question?  I don’t have all the answers but, what I do know, I’m willing to share without any b.s..    great to have you back, connelly…but there’s no need for that false name and addy! wayno

<SPLORK!

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Do you have a fly tying question?  I don’t have all the answers but, what I do know, I’m willing to share without any b.s..

Should it be legal to patent or trademark a pattern ? Thanks man, — Halfordian Golfer It is impossible to catch and release a wild trout. A cash flow runs through it.

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Do you have a fly tying question?  I don’t have all the answers but, what I do know, I’m willing to share without any b.s.. Should it be legal to patent or trademark a pattern ?

I don’t see why not. Might be hard to enforce, though. If you determine the genetic sequence of a natrual insect you can patent it under fairly broad conditions. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Allan,    Your offer is appreciated by the members of ROFF, and are you also willing to share the price of your flies? Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you have a fly tying question?  I don’t have all the answers but, what I do know, I’m willing to share without any b.s.. After 40 years of fly tying (probably over 50,000 flies) mostly for trout up here in the n.e. (Catskills), fly fishing and reading all that I can get my hands on I think I’ve learned some things that may help you find solutions to your fly tying and maybe fly fishing problems. So before you spend big $$s on tying technique books, ‘a kit’, materials you don’t know, vises, new gizmos, threads, hooks, gear, etc. contact me. There’s NO charge, NO fee. Just sound FREE advice from someone who has no affiliation to any manufacturer, catalog company, fly shop or publisher. And, if I can’t answer your question, I’ll say so! Tight Wraps Allan

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Do you have a fly tying question?  I don’t have all the answers but, what I do know, I’m willing to share without any b.s..

Without ANY b.s. ? Boy, are you ever in the wrong newsgroup. Just kiddin’ Allan, but it would be more appropriate to just chime in here on the newsgroup for all to read when you have something to contribute rather than popping in here unannounced and soliciting private email. — Ken Fortenberry

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you have a fly tying question?  I don’t have all the answers but, what I do know, I’m willing to share without any b.s.. After 40 years of fly tying (probably over 50,000 flies) mostly for trout up here in the n.e. (Catskills), fly fishing and reading all that I can get my hands on I think I’ve learned some things that may help you find solutions to your fly tying and maybe fly fishing problems. So before you spend big $$s on tying technique books, ‘a kit’, materials you don’t know, vises, new gizmos, threads, hooks, gear, etc. contact me. There’s NO charge, NO fee. Just sound FREE advice from someone who has no affiliation to any manufacturer, catalog company, fly shop or publisher. And, if I can’t answer your question, I’ll say so! Tight Wraps Allan

Thanks Allan, I have a question or two….. questions that concern legitimacy. To the best of my recollection, this is your first message to this august body. Hence, my natural-borne skepticism. Are questions to be posted here at ROFF where you will answer them here publically at ROFF? Or do you prefer that questions be sent to you via e-mail? If the latter, what is your privacy policy concerning the security of e-mail addresses of questionaires? Since you mentioned that you had no affilition with fly shops, etc., but failed to mention that you had *no* affiliation with internet marketeers, I ask these hard questions not to dissuade your altruism, but to clarify your position concerning the privacy of ROFFians who visit this newsgroup, and who, unwittingly, may fall prey to the tentacles of ever-present address collectors who share or sell their lists to spammers. My questions are not posed nor meant to demean your knowledge and your apparent willingness to share that knowledge. That is commendable. *But*, please excuse my skepticism…. we’ve seen these types of posts before. –Walt — Ezflyfish.com: http://www.ezflyfish.com Blue Ridge Book Gallery: http://users.boone.net/wgw/brbg.html

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Do you have a fly tying question?  I don’t have all the answers but, what I do know, I’m willing to share without any b.s.. After 40 years of fly tying (probably over 50,000 flies) mostly for trout up here in the n.e. (Catskills), fly fishing and reading all that I can get my hands on I think I’ve learned some things that may help you find solutions to your fly tying and maybe fly fishing problems. So before you spend big $$s on tying technique books, ‘a kit’, materials you don’t know, vises, new gizmos, threads, hooks, gear, etc. contact me. There’s NO charge, NO fee. Just sound FREE advice from someone who has no affiliation to any manufacturer, catalog company, fly shop or publisher. And, if I can’t answer your question, I’ll say so! Tight Wraps Allan

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Question:

Sierra Trading Post has some good prices right now on winter time clothes. I got some silk long johns, marino woolshirts etc. Shipping was prompt etc. I’ve always stopped in their store when I was in Casper but I just found their website. They carry quality outdoor clothing at substantial discounts. I’m not affiliated with them at all just like the quality and price on what they carry.     http://www.sierratradingpost.com/ Willi

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Just got an "Ott Light" for my tying table.  Been using my wife’s for a few months.  I love this thing.  The light is more natural that incandescent or florescent bulbs and I find I don’t need the magnifier on some of the flies that I used to use.  If you know a tyer, its a great gift (or put one on your own list.).       Frank Reid – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sierra Trading Post has some good prices right now on winter time clothes. I got some silk long johns, marino woolshirts etc. Shipping was prompt etc. I’ve always stopped in their store when I was in Casper but I just found their website. They carry quality outdoor clothing at substantial discounts. I’m not affiliated with them at all just like the quality and price on what they carry. http://www.sierratradingpost.com/ Willi

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Gentlemen, I would sincerely appreciate any advice for purchasing a winter "all – around"  but primarily fly fishing Gore-Tex type rain jacket.  It does not need to be Gore-Tex name brand just something similar and would like it to be an outdoor color, either solid brown, tan or camo would be suffice,  I would also like it to be more than just a shell so it will not only keep me dry but warm as well.  I do already layer properly with thinsulate and fleece but need something a little heavier for the very coldest of days in winter.  I live and fish primarily in Maryland and will begin shortly to fish in PA and WV.  I would also be glad to hear of any other suggestions for staying comfortable through the winter season. (Besides staying indoors) Sadly I can not afford top of the line products but anything in the $150.00 to $200.00 would be great. Thanks in advance, Tony Norton

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Tony I have the old Bare sharkskin and it works fine.  The newer Bare models are olive and may be a bit higher than your price range but worth checking out. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Being in that part of the country it should be easy to get a military issue gortex field jacket WITH a liner.  I live in Ky and we can usually get them at Fort Knox for about 150.00 dollars.  I guess the key to this is knowing someone in the military who can get you this stuff. Being close to Ft. Meade and various other places it shouldnt be to hard for you.  If you know someone in the reserves they can get it for you.  I got all the clothing that I needed just before I got out except for the Gortex field jacket and I wish I would have gotten one myself. Roger – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gentlemen, I would sincerely appreciate any advice for purchasing a winter "all – around"  but primarily fly fishing Gore-Tex type rain jacket.  It does not need to be Gore-Tex name brand just something similar and would like it to be an outdoor color, either solid brown, tan or camo would be suffice,  I would also like it to be more than just a shell so it will not only keep me dry but warm as well.  I do already layer properly with thinsulate and fleece but need something a little heavier for the very coldest of days in winter.  I live and fish primarily in Maryland and will begin shortly to fish in PA and WV.  I would also be glad to hear of any other suggestions for staying comfortable through the winter season. (Besides staying indoors) Sadly I can not afford top of the line products but anything in the $150.00 to $200.00 would be great. Thanks in advance, Tony Norton

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   I live about 3 miles from Ft. Meade and have found quite a few places where one can get the military gortex (mostly in Glen Burnie). I love the stuff.  Super durable and is relatively comfortable.  Gotex makes a spray that can reseal the gortex if its getting old.  A used jacket and the spray will be about half the price of the new.  Try Sunnies stores, there’s one on Richie Hwy north of 100.   If you don’t buy the military, make sure the seams are double stitched and sealed.  All pocket zippers should zip down to close and have a weather flap over the top.  If there is a hood, ensure that the hood is attached about halfway up the colar.  This will keep the wet off your neck when you take the hood off.  Make sure it is lined.  Gortex can be like a tent, if you touch it with your hand on the inside while it is wet, the damp can come through.  I don’t like the net linings, a good nylon taffeta inner is good.        Frank Reid – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Being in that part of the country it should be easy to get a military issue gortex field jacket WITH a liner.  I live in Ky and we can usually get them at Fort Knox for about 150.00 dollars.  I guess the key to this is knowing someone in the military who can get you this stuff. Being close to Ft. Meade and various other places it shouldnt be to hard for you.  If you know someone in the reserves they can get it for you.  I got all the clothing that I needed just before I got out except for the Gortex field jacket and I wish I would have gotten one myself. Roger Gentlemen, I would sincerely appreciate any advice for purchasing a winter "all – around"  but primarily fly fishing Gore-Tex type rain jacket.  It does not need to be Gore-Tex name brand just something similar and would like it to be an outdoor color, either solid brown, tan or camo would be suffice,  I would also like it to be more than just a shell so it will not only keep me dry but warm as well.  I do already layer properly with thinsulate and fleece but need something a little heavier for the very coldest of days in winter.  I live and fish primarily in Maryland and will begin shortly to fish in PA and WV.  I would also be glad to hear of any other suggestions for staying comfortable through the winter season. (Besides staying indoors) Sadly I can not afford top of the line products but anything in the $150.00 to $200.00 would be great. Thanks in advance, Tony Norton

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Tony check out the Solitude "Ultima" jacket. I picked one up and it’s worked great for me I do a bit a fishing in the winter and I try to catch the ice-outs up north so I’ve worn it in some pretty crappy weather. It runs about $200, the compant compares it to the Simms model priced a bit higher. You can check it out at their sight http://www.solitude.com. Good luck, Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gentlemen, I would sincerely appreciate any advice for purchasing a winter "all – around"  but primarily fly fishing Gore-Tex type rain jacket.  It does not need to be Gore-Tex name brand just something similar and would like it to be an outdoor color, either solid brown, tan or camo would be suffice,  I would also like it to be more than just a shell so it will not only keep me dry but warm as well.  I do already layer properly with thinsulate and fleece but need something a little heavier for the very coldest of days in winter.  I live and fish primarily in Maryland and will begin shortly to fish in PA and WV.  I would also be glad to hear of any other suggestions for staying comfortable through the winter season. (Besides staying indoors) Sadly I can not afford top of the line products but anything in the $150.00 to $200.00 would be great. Thanks in advance, Tony Norton

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Question:

Great report, guys.  Peter, are you standing in a hole in that picture?  <g Never saw Forty in waders.  Hope I never do again.  <g  I like your hat, Forty.  Eff ‘em all if they don’t! Glad you guys had a great trip, and like Charlie has said, I find it hard to believe it did not rain.   Dave LaCourse

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They call it "The Carnival" because during steelhead season it is packed with anglers. On a Monday morning, it was relatively uncrowded. "Relatively" being the key word.

Welcome to Michigan! A great day of fishing. The Muskegon River is a beautiful piece of water. It supports a spawning population of steelhead and Chinook salmon. It’s not really a trout stream, though. All the trout are stockers and they don’t get any natural reproduction.

I believe there are places where you can find resident trout.  I was speaking with a guy last night who has been fishing the Muskegon on and off for the last three weeks.  He said he caught several browns and rainbows in the 16" – 19".  Of course he was fishing private water that is rarely encountered except for people who are taking long float trips. Good to hear you guys got into some steelies.  I’ve been meaning to go out this year but only made it out once and left early after only two hours of fishing.  I was disgusted by the "relatively" uncrowded conditions.  Did catch some trout but on my 9 wt they weren’t too much fun. Mu

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Glad you guys had a great trip, and like Charlie has said, I find it hard to believe it did not rain.   Dave LaCourse

Worse, it snowed. Peter

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real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html

The truth ain’t always ugly.  Nice pics, whoever took them – both you and Ken did a good job of that. Delorme’s can be wrong (the Michigan one at least).  They don’t show all the dirt roads and there are some *roads* on that map that are just dirt trails.  Some of the names of the roads change as they cross county lines or highways and this is not always clearly marked on the map.  Also, the green color on the Delorme is supposed to represent public land but the detail is not fine enough to show you that on many of these streams there are in fact houses along the river.  I don’t mind too much though, the exploration part is just part of the fun of fishing.   BTW, I like Ken’s hat – got a Kangol just like it, earflaps and all. Mu

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<great report snipped Nice Report Ken.  You reminded me of the first time on the San Juan last November.  I left my wading shoes in the car after my first day fishing, got down to the river the next morning and they were frozen solid. bc. — Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -Benjamin Franklin

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A great day of fishing. The Muskegon River is a beautiful piece of water. It supports a spawning population of steelhead and Chinook salmon. It’s not really a trout stream, though. All the trout are stockers and they don’t get any natural reproduction. I believe there are places where you can find resident trout.  I was speaking with a guy last night who has been fishing the Muskegon on and off for the last three weeks.  He said he caught several browns and rainbows in the 16" – 19". …

That’s right. Residents aka holdovers. I caught a nice 12" rainbow, he didn’t put up much of a fight against a 7wt. Those 6-8 inchers will be 12-14 inchers by fall and there are holdovers that make it through the winter. When I say it’s not a trout stream I mean that trout do not reproduce in the stream, they are all stocked. The spawning population of steelies and salmon head out to Lake Michigan after their sexual escapades in the Muskegon and return year after year to spawn. Their offspring do the same. While some would claim they’re not "wild" because they were stocked in the first place they are "natural" in my book. Unlike the trout. — Ken Fortenberry

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Why can’t the rainbows spawn if the steelhead and salmon can? Are they outcompeted by the bigger fish?

Good question. I don’t know. I’m not familiar with the Muskegon at all and don’t know much about it. BTW, the salmon don’t return year after year. They die. I think I’ve heard of experiments with Atlantics in the Great Lakes, but the vast majority are Pacific salmon.

That’s right, the salmon that spawn in the Muskegon are Chinooks. — Ken Fortenberry

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Ken Have they ever tried Cutts in these rivers? Dave

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Have they ever tried Cutts in these rivers?

Don’t know, David. I’m more familiar with Wisconsin DNR than Michigan. So far as I know, Wisconsin has not. — Ken Fortenberry

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That’s right. Residents aka holdovers. I caught a nice 12" rainbow, he didn’t put up much of a fight against a 7wt. Those 6-8 inchers will be 12-14 inchers by fall and there are holdovers that make it through the winter. When I say it’s not a trout stream I mean that trout do not reproduce in the stream, they are all stocked.

My guess is that it has nothing to do with water quality but other factors such as: available spawning space (competition from the big guys), fishing pressure, low survivability of the stockers (poor genetics?), and perhaps seasonal factors that affect residents but not migratories. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Unlike the trout. — Ken Fortenberry

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The truth ain’t always ugly.  Nice pics, whoever took them – both you and Ken did a good job of that. Delorme’s can be wrong (the Michigan one at least).  They don’t show all the dirt roads and there are some *roads* on that map that are just dirt trails.  Some of the names of the roads change as they cross county lines or highways and this is not always clearly marked on the map.  Also, the green color on the Delorme is supposed to represent public land but the detail is not fine enough to show you that on many of these streams there are in fact houses along the river.  I don’t mind too much though, the exploration part is just part of the fun of fishing.   BTW, I like Ken’s hat – got a Kangol just like it, earflaps and all. Mu

I was just being an ass.  The Delorme showed a Pettit road that lead straight to Croton.  It was a goat track and it ended at some power lines where trees and stumps had been dragged across the right-of-way. One would guess from the Delorme that it was a decent road.  Ken was right, the Delorme was wrong. Peter

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Great trip report guys.   Thanks for the smiles. Joe F.

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Anyway, enough of the Entertainment Tonight segment of the trip.  The real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html

Nice report and pictures, but it didn’t seem to be raining so are you sure that was really Fortenberry in the festive chapeau? — Charlie…

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……I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages.

I’ll open the bidding at 5 bucks.

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……I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages. I’ll open the bidding at 5 bucks.

i’ll see that 5 and raise, a hush falls over the table, hee-hee-hee…. a bottle of wild turkey for maine clave — Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com http://auctions.yahoo.com/booth/ezflyfish_com Used, Rare, & Out-of-Print Books: http://www.crosswinds.net/~brbg/books/brbg-2.html

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Good report.  Nice to see pictures on your site. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter is the one on the right with the teeny weeny bright hen and I’m the one on the left with the huge brawny buck. [a somewhat accurate story snipped] — Ken Fortenberry Teeny weeny hen my ass.  Just to set the record straight, I caught the hens, Ken caught the bucks.  Not trying to imply something here, but I’m starting question his "orientation" if you know what I mean.  (Say no more.   Say no more.  Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink)  Any way, if he keeps up with those exaggerations, I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages. Anyway, enough of the Entertainment Tonight segment of the trip.  The real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Marvellous report, great pictures too. I really enjoyed that.  Thanks TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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Holy macaroni! Who the hell are the two "dudes" in the pictures with the guide?

The good looking "dude" is me.  I’m the one with the rod.  The fish is the thing with fins.  The guide is holding the thing with fins. Notice I made Ken’s fish picture big and my fish picture small.  Am I a great person or what, eh? Where the heck did Ken get that hat??

He loves it – and I had to put up with all of the sniggers from the bait fishermen. And what’s this – Ken fishing for stockers?!?

with a gusto, I might add That’s it. The world is coming to an end. /daytripper (awe-palled…)

Naw, just a blip.  Now if he’d used spawn on the end of his T&T  . . . . Peter

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Teeny weeny hen my ass.  Just to set the record straight, I caught the hens, Ken caught the bucks.  Not trying to imply something here, but I’m starting question his "orientation" if you know what I mean.  (Say no more.   Say no more.  Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink)  Any way, if he keeps up with those exaggerations, I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages. Anyway, enough of the Entertainment Tonight segment of the trip.  The real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html

Holy macaroni! Who the hell are the two "dudes" in the pictures with the guide? Where the heck did Ken get that hat?? And what’s this – Ken fishing for stockers?!? That’s it. The world is coming to an end. /daytripper (awe-palled…)

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Nice report. Thanks, almost like being there, especially the bloody freezing feet ! TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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Peter is the one on the right with the teeny weeny bright hen and I’m the one on the left with the huge brawny buck.

[a somewhat accurate story snipped] — Ken Fortenberry

Teeny weeny hen my ass.  Just to set the record straight, I caught the hens, Ken caught the bucks.  Not trying to imply something here, but I’m starting question his "orientation" if you know what I mean.  (Say no more.   Say no more.  Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink)  Any way, if he keeps up with those exaggerations, I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages. Anyway, enough of the Entertainment Tonight segment of the trip.  The real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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… Where the heck did Ken get that hat??

Hey, that’s a great hat, fleece, Goretex AND ear flaps,…ahhh, ear flaps. Peter made fun of it too, can you imagine, and him looking like the Unabomber in that hood. And what’s this – Ken fishing for stockers?!?

Yeah I know, it made the guide happy. I considered it part of his tip. Those fish were put in the river the previous Thursday, all were 6-8 inches and dumber than dumb. The guide said if there’s anything in your fly box that you’d like to pull out at some point and say, "Can you believe I caught a fish on THAT.", now is the time to tie it on. They had six inches of snow the previous Friday and he said they were rising furiously to snow flakes. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

We picked the Muskegon River in Michigan because it’s roughly equidistant between my home in Urbana, IL and Peter Charles’ home in Burlington, Ontario. As fishing season 2000 started to unfold and dates started firming up, it was starting to look like Peter and I wouldn’t have a chance to wet a line together. I can’t make it to Maine ‘Clave, Peter can’t make it to Spring Fling so obviously we had to do something. It was basically put a finger on the map, let’s fish there. We hired a guide for Monday and met at the motel late morning on Sunday. I had my canoe and the plan was to buy licenses and familiarize ourselves with the area before the guided trip the next day. While buying the licenses I discovered a couple of things. First, if you catch a female steelhead early in the day, just gut her on the spot and you’ve got bait for the rest of the day. This from the very friendly bait guys at the Trading Post. I said, "Yeah, thanks. What a great idea." They did give us some very helpful advice on access points and I genuinely like talking to those guys even if I never would gut a hen on the spot. Second, Peter lies about his weight when buying a fishing license. We had a pleasant canoe trip from Croton Dam to the Thornapple Ave. access. Very crowded on a Sunday afternoon and we canoed more than we fished. We did see plenty of steelhead, though. Rather, Peter saw plenty of steelhead, I had left my polarized glasses in the car. Monday morning was cold. My wading shoes were wet from the day before and they turned into ice cubes while sitting in the drift boat. Hard for me to be comfy with cold feet and my feet were encased in ice for the first hour of the trip. We anchored the boat at a place the guides call "The Carnival", an eighth of a mile stretch of riffles and pools about a mile below Croton Dam. They call it "The Carnival" because during steelhead season it is packed with anglers. On a Monday morning, it was relatively uncrowded. "Relatively" being the key word. I got the first couple of hookups but botched them badly. Broke off the fish almost immediately. Peter landed the first steelie after a couple of his own botched hookups. I quickly followed and caught the same buck that had broken me off earlier, so was able to retrieve BOTH of my #14 black stonefly nymphs. We moved down a ways, spotted some fish, anchored and then waded into position. Peter was on almost immediately, our guide looked downstream, looked at the hole where he’d positioned me and said "Here’s our chance for a double." The guide waded down to net Peter’s fish and before he got into position I was on to a fish. The double. Guides love ‘em, and it makes for a great photo op. The first fish took me into the backing but this one seemed content to just sit in a hole and DEFY me. I watched the action downstream as Peter and the guide did the intricate netting dance and then I yelled down to Peter, "Here’s our double !" I worked down to get my fish next to the net so the guide could net both, one right after the other. He did, we got a quick photo, and Peter will post it on his site soon. Peter is the one on the right with the teeny weeny bright hen and I’m the one on the left with the huge brawny buck. I don’t know what Peter was using, I caught that one a Hex nymph. A great day of fishing. The Muskegon River is a beautiful piece of water. It supports a spawning population of steelhead and Chinook salmon. It’s not really a trout stream, though. All the trout are stockers and they don’t get any natural reproduction. Our guide was very good. I have only mentioned one guide in this forum as someone I recommend. That was Robin Cunningham of Gallatin Gateway, Montana. Today, I recommend the second. Dustan Harley of Ripple Guide Service. http://www.rippleguideservice.com/ Dustan had us on the water for nearly 11 hours and was at his most impressive when he stopped the boat, and said "Get out your 4 wts." It was the PERFECT interlude. We tossed stimulators and griffiths gnats to rising stockers. After chucking lead for most of the day with 7 wts, it was a real joy to actually flyfish with a dry fly. We caught dumb little 8" fish and it was a hoot. Dustan will be in Livingston, Montana during Western ‘Clave. He’s a good guy to go fishin’ with. I do question his taste in beer, after the trip when offered a Sleeman’s or a Budweiser, he chose the Sleeman’s. Hey, I said he was a good guide, I won’t vouch for his taste in beer. After that long day in the wind and the cold you might expect a couple of old farts to just go back to motel room, drink a beer in their underwear and go immediately to sleep. Peter and I partied till the wee hours, drank a half a fifth of Wild Turkey, and had to shoo off the dancing girls at daylight. That’s our story and we’re sticking to it. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Question:

I too had a similar experience.   Was fishing a new rod and after a while, noticed I wasn’t able to shoot any line out.   Must’ve made a few more casts before realizing the guides were frozen solid. My advice?  If you’re fishing a small lake, try pouring some prestone in it. Keeps it from freezing.   It’s hopeless in a river as the current carries it all downstream and it makes for a very expensive outting. No serious replies please… i was just kidding. Ken. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ahh, ROFF the beautiful… I was in Utah all this week and at the last minute decided not to take a fly rod. That was a mistake because the weather kept getting warmer and warmer. By Wednesday all of the snow had melted and it was downright warm. Bummer. Guess I shoulda packed along a rod and called bc afterall. Anyway, although I checked in on ROFF from time to time while I was away, it took me quite a while to get caught up. Some truly hilarious stuff this week, indeed. Went fishing yesterday afternoon. Who’d a thunk it would be colder in Raleigh than in Utah? The wind finally died down and I took a quick trip over to the pond. A couple of disinterested takes but nothing landed. I started noticing this really odd scraping sound during my forward cast after I’d been fishing for about 10 minutes. I couldn’t figure out what it was. It kept getting louder and louder. The water wasn’t overly murky so it couldn’t be pond scum–maybe the guides are bent, I thought, or perhaps I missed a guide when I threaded up the rod. Duh. Turns out there was ice on the guides!  I had to keep breaking little ice chunks off the guides and line as it kept getting colder and colder. Somehow I thought I was going to be able to fish un-interrupted all year round. Hmm. –Steve Zimmerman

Response:

it was downright warm. Bummer. Guess I shoulda packed along a rod and called bc afterall.

I say a pray to St. Peter, light a candle, we get beautiful weather, a nice midge hatch in the afternoon and your not there For your eyelet’s and ice, try dabbing them with a little RainX – it works. bc. — ROFF is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea — massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."

Response:

Happened to me today — and the reel froze solid. Beautiful day though, and I discovered some new water (for me anyway). -Palmer

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ahh, ROFF the beautiful… I was in Utah all this week and at the last minute decided not to take a fly rod. That was a mistake because the weather kept getting warmer and warmer. By Wednesday all of the snow had melted and it was downright warm. Bummer. Guess I shoulda packed along a rod and called bc afterall. Anyway, although I checked in on ROFF from time to time while I was away, it took me quite a while to get caught up. Some truly hilarious stuff this week, indeed. Went fishing yesterday afternoon. Who’d a thunk it would be colder in Raleigh than in Utah? The wind finally died down and I took a quick trip over to the pond. A couple of disinterested takes but nothing landed. I started noticing this really odd scraping sound during my forward cast after I’d been fishing for about 10 minutes. I couldn’t figure out what it was. It kept getting louder and louder. The water wasn’t overly murky so it couldn’t be pond scum–maybe the guides are bent, I thought, or perhaps I missed a guide when I threaded up the rod. Duh. Turns out there was ice on the guides!  I had to keep breaking little ice chunks off the guides and line as it kept getting colder and colder. Somehow I thought I was going to be able to fish un-interrupted all year round. Hmm. –Steve Zimmerman

Response:

Ahh, ROFF the beautiful… I was in Utah all this week and at the last minute decided not to take a fly rod. That was a mistake because the weather kept getting warmer and warmer. By Wednesday all of the snow had melted and it was downright warm. Bummer. Guess I shoulda packed along a rod and called bc afterall. Anyway, although I checked in on ROFF from time to time while I was away, it took me quite a while to get caught up. Some truly hilarious stuff this week, indeed. Went fishing yesterday afternoon. Who’d a thunk it would be colder in Raleigh than in Utah? The wind finally died down and I took a quick trip over to the pond. A couple of disinterested takes but nothing landed. I started noticing this really odd scraping sound during my forward cast after I’d been fishing for about 10 minutes. I couldn’t figure out what it was. It kept getting louder and louder. The water wasn’t overly murky so it couldn’t be pond scum–maybe the guides are bent, I thought, or perhaps I missed a guide when I threaded up the rod. Duh. Turns out there was ice on the guides!  I had to keep breaking little ice chunks off the guides and line as it kept getting colder and colder. Somehow I thought I was going to be able to fish un-interrupted all year round. Hmm. –Steve Zimmerman

Response:

<snipped Duh. Turns out there was ice on the guides!  I had to keep breaking little ice chunks off the guides and line as it kept getting colder and colder. Somehow I thought I was going to be able to fish un-interrupted all year round. Hmm. –Steve Zimmerman

Geeze Steve, That sounds like a mirror image of what happened to me on my last local pond trip! Definitely no fishing for a while until this cold snap (Ha!) buggers off. It’s kinda good that we’re almost through January. Only two more months before it get’s reasonable again! Who hoo! — Michael Era

Question:

Stick to ‘boonies’ curious Edwin. At least you can spell that! Aye yours, a birtish (sic) ninny – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Stick to ‘boonies’ curious Edwin. At least you can spell that! Aye yours, a birtish (sic) ninny

Don’t be offended, he probably meant ‘nanny’ and Austria, and was watching ‘The Sound of Music’<g. — Charlie…

Response:

She is a woman the British hire to take care of their children. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What the hell is a birtish ninny?? — Regards, Peter    Folks, I posted a similar item in a different group, but thought you folks might have an opinion. Last nite I watched some show where this birtish ninny was driving around the australian outback.

Response:

Anthony, So I spelled British incorrectly.  Blame the booze. The important part is that I spelled ninny correctly, which is, given the reply, truly the appropriate term. cheeers, edwin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stick to ‘boonies’ curious Edwin. At least you can spell that! Aye yours, a birtish (sic) ninny

Response:

Anthony, So I spelled British incorrectly.  Blame the booze. The important part is that I spelled ninny correctly, which is, given the reply, truly the appropriate term. cheeers, edwin

        edwin, old boy, i am in complete accord.  more whiskey and less pompous asses.         a. wayne harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stick to ‘boonies’ curious Edwin. At least you can spell that! Aye yours, a birtish (sic) ninny

Response:

Here in Australia we’re more likley to quote the area …ie 2 kilometers east of Mudgee on the Cudgegong River.  Although, if its an area that we don’t want to give away we’ll quote the saying "It’s at the back of Bourke" If you really want to see some "outthere" fly fishing try an obtain a tape of the TV series called "A River Somewhere" by the ABC in Australia  they’re on the web at www.abc.net.au I think). Stuart

Response:

East Overshoe, or waythehellandgone. FlyFisherRay

Response:

What i mean is, when you tell your buddies about where you were, do you say something like "I was way out in the boonies?"  or " I fished inthe middle of nowhere"  or what? Rooster-poot Arkansas or East bumf*ck

BWAH HAHAHA! Rooster-poot! I love it. I’m adding that one to my list, which also includes Crankshaft, Dogpatch, Fleabag Flats, Shinbone, and Scooter Gulch. Dave

Response:

    Folks, I posted a similar item in a different group, but thought you folks might have an opinion. Last nite I watched some show where this birtish ninny was driving around the australian outback. It got me to thinking.. when fishing way out somewhere very remote, what do you call that area?  i dont mean "Oh, i get to name a spot after me" sort of thing. What i mean is, when you tell your buddies about where you were, do you say something like "I was way out in the boonies?"  or " I fished inthe middle of nowhere"  or what? I usually say the boonies, but wonder what others might use. curious, edwin

Response:

What i mean is, when you tell your buddies about where you were, do you say something like "I was way out in the boonies?"  or " I fished inthe middle of nowhere"  or what? I usually say the boonies, but wonder what others might use. curious, edwin

Ed,         I usually say "way out in the boonies," too.  My buddy sometimes says he was "deep in the bush" or "way the f**** out in East Jesus." Bob

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What i mean is, when you tell your buddies about where you were, do you say something like "I was way out in the boonies?"  or " I fished inthe middle of nowhere"  or what? I usually say the boonies, but wonder what others might use. curious, edwin Ed,         I usually say "way out in the boonies," too.  My buddy sometimes says he was "deep in the bush" or "way the f**** out in East Jesus." Bob

…Or if you don’t want anyone to share your secret "honeyhole", it’s the "ditch behind the post office".

Response:

What i mean is, when you tell your buddies about where you were, do you say something like "I was way out in the boonies?"  or " I fished inthe middle of nowhere"  or what? I usually say the boonies, but wonder what others might use. curious, edwin

Rooster-poot Arkansas or East bumf*ck Patrick

Response:

What the hell is a birtish ninny?? — Regards, Peter    Folks, I posted a similar item in a different group, but thought you folks might have an opinion. Last nite I watched some show where this birtish ninny was driving around the australian outback.

Response:

Question:

Hello everyone,         I am going to Bishop this weekend and I was wondering if anyone could give me any tips as to good places to try and flies to use. I would greatly appreciate size/pattern/color details if you supply them. Thank you in advance.                         Jeff

Response:

Hello everyone,         I am going to Bishop this weekend and I was wondering if anyone could give me any tips as to good places to try and flies to use. I would greatly appreciate size/pattern/color details if you supply them. Thank you in advance.                         Jeff         The lower Owens river below the Res. right near town.  I forget the name of the lake, but there is some great dry fly fishing in the C&R area.  Small Elk hair Caddis (#14, 16), tan, brown, green bodies all work well if the fish are looking up…. JE

Response:

Make sure to check on the flows of the Owens River before you go — they may be quite high, especially out of Pleasant Valley Res.  Check with one of the sporting good stores in town (or you can call the L.A. department of water and power in Bishop at 619/872-1104) and they will tell you what the best bets are regarding stream flows. I would also suggest driving about 1/2 hour north to the Mammoth area and fish Hot Creek — use anything small (caddis, mayflies,etc.) with extra long 6X-7X leaders and use some stealth.  I have heard that the flows there are pretty consistent right now.  Good luck.

Response:

Question:

I would appreciate any information on fishing for steelhead or salmon around Vancouver in late October, particularly on wadeable river spots. Thanks in advance, RK —   /      RedKnight               | Chris McCarley   /      "I have seen the future |            and it is neural."      |

Try calling Ruddicks Fly Shop in Burnaby (Suburb of Van)

Response:

I would appreciate any information on fishing for steelhead or salmon around Vancouver in late October, particularly on wadeable river spots. Thanks in advance, RK —   /      RedKnight               | Chris McCarley   /      "I have seen the future |            and it is neural."      |

Response:

Question:

Does anyone know if Heenan reservouir in Alpine County, CA going to be open this year for fishing? Mac — Earl ‘Mac’ McReynolds                            Clanranald of Lochaber Sacramento, CA                                    "MY HOPE IS CONSTANT

Response:

McReynolds) writes: Does anyone know if Heenan reservouir in Alpine County, CA going to be open this year for fishing? Mac — Earl ‘Mac’ McReynolds                            Clanranald of Lochaber Sacramento, CA                                "MY HOPE IS CONSTANT

Mac-     Don’t know for sure, but I read (In the California Fly Fisher Mag) that there were about 2000 fish left after the kill off(?!) after about 24000 before the kill off. Is it worth it at that point?

Response:

Heenan is dear to our club, The High Sierra Flycasters — but we don’t have any particularly good knowledge of what happens this fall.  The fact that some fish survived last fall’s die-off is enough for now.  Our club volunteered to man the checking station last year and I was in the barrel the weekend of the die-off.  It looked bad and frankly I was willing to accept that all fish were dead.    But both the CAL and NV departments got eggs this year.  I think the 2,000 fish referred to were the number from which eggs were taken — but am not sure. To compound the problem, the lake went over the top this year and dumped hundreds of fish into Monitor Creek, an intermittant stream.  The CAL Dept. salvaged many and stocked them in other streams.  Some of our "sportsmen" also had a ball while they were in Monitor. There is some good news.  As part of the purchase of the Slash Bar H ranch in Carson Valley, hopefully by Douglas County, there’s an opportunity for the State of California to purchase 3,000 acre feet of water rights for Heenan and the State has already issued a letter of intent to do so — I think for about 7 million.  Up to now, California has owned the lake bed but not the water., Back to whether Heenan will open.  Ask CF&G but the rumour we hear is that it will not open and my guess is that if an opening is proposed our club will object. Hope this helps.  Incidentally, does anybody have email addresses for CAL Dept. of F&G.  It would be nice to get the answer from the Horse’s mouth – – or other parts of its anatomy, for that matter. Regards to all Dick Hubbard

Response:

McReynolds) writes: Does anyone know if Heenan reservouir in Alpine County, CA going to be open this year for fishing? Mac-    Don’t know for sure, but I read (In the California Fly Fisher Mag) that there were about 2000 fish left after the kill off(?!) after about 24000 before the kill off. Is it worth it at that point?

That would be about one fish per angler on a Saturday… The definitive word on Heenan’s status would probably come from Judy Warren who you can reach at the Alpine Co. Chamber of Commerce.  She’s probably done more to keep this thing going than anyone, including snowmobiling up to the lake during the winter to auger holes in the ice.  I think they moved some of the Lahontans from Heenan into other lakes in the area to make sure they survived.  Keep hunting… Ross  

Response:

Bob. From a post I see you mentioned the California Fly Fisher Magazine, can you tell me about this mag? Who can I contact, etc. Thanks loads Michae

Response:

Still don’t know for sure whether Heenan will open this fall but got word from Judy Warren that the Department does plan to open it is year.  I have a call in to judy asking he to advice us — High Sierra Flycasters —  on what position we should take on this.  We’ll consider her recommendations on the 16th.  I’ll post the outcome. Dick Hubbard

Response:

Question:

Can you help a friend of mine with suggestions of where to go dry fly fishing in the Crested Butte area during the July 4th holiday period.  He is interested in both guided and wadable non-guided time.  Cutthroats and rainbows would be perfect.    Bob Jameson,  Perkiomenville,PA

Response:

Can you help a friend of mine with suggestions of where to go dry fly fishing in the Crested Butte area during the July 4th holiday period.  He is interested in both guided and wadable non-guided time.  Cutthroats and rainbows would be perfect.    Bob Jameson,  Perkiomenville,PA

Check out the Rocky Mountain Flyfishing Center, they have very current info  http://www.xmission.com/~gastown/flyfishing/index.html I just checked and they have some good stuff on the Gunnison Basin. South of Crested Butte is Almont,  upstreasm of Almont (the Taylor River) is Taylor Reservoir.  for .4 miles from the damn is catch-release, some real hogs! Average 4.5 lbs! Also in the area is Spring Creek Reservoir and a multitude of streams. We have very high streams right now so best to call ahead: ALMONT Three Rivers Resort/Willowfly Anglers Box 339 Almont, CO 81210 (970) 641-1303 GUNNISON High Mountain Drifter 211 E. Tomichi (in the Amoco) Gunnison, CO 81230 (970) 641-4243 1-800-793-4243

Response:

Question:

I noticed a hat with mosquito netting draped over the face and neck, kind of like a beekeepers bonnet, in an REI catalog. Has anyone tried one of these hats?

Yes. They are fantastic.

Response:

-bill "I hate the stench of insect repellent" faus Have you tried eating LOTS of garlic &/or vitamin B1 for awhile before your trip? They say if you’ve got it oozing out of your pores, the bugs won’t like it. Your friends will be another problem. —

I had a friend that used B1 – LOTS of it.  I don’t know what it does to the bugs, but it makes a GREAT people repellent!  We go out in the winter when the bugs are fewer, not gone, but fewer. Ted

Response:

[headnets]  Yes!  They work.  They’re slightly annoying to wear, altho not as annoying as swarming mosquitoes or the dreaded black flies.  We took it a step farther.  My wife has made netting jackets, complete with hood, for us and our kids.  Leggin’s too, so we can wear shorts in heavy duty bug country.

        I’ve seen commercially made net jackets as well.  You’re supposed to soak the whole thing in DEET between wearings.  Probably best for stationary, high-bug activities like fishing.  I think Bean’s has them.

Response:

I noticed a hat with mosquito netting draped over the face and neck, kind of like a beekeepers bonnet, in an REI catalog. Has anyone tried one of these hats?

        A lightweight approach to physical insect barriers is a plain headnet of no-se-um mesh (looks like a stuff sack, complete with neck drawcord;  about 1 oz. and $5 at Campmor and other places).  It helps to wear a hat underneath (any kind will do) to cover the top of the head and hold the netting away from the face.  Yes, it dims the view a bit, but it keeps the bugs away.  The only tricky part is eating.  ;-)         A caveat;  just because the bugs can’t get to you doesn’t mean they won’t try.  I tried to sleep once in headnet and bivy sack and was kept awake all night by the high-frequency buzzing in my ears.  Next time, I’ll remember my earplugs, but I did get some wonderful pictures of the dawn.  ;-) -bill "I hate the stench of insect repellent" faus

        Likewise.  I’ll almost always choose long clothing and headnet over sun block and bug repellent.

Response:

So many people in the last few months have been recommending B-1 to ward off mosquitos in the last few months that I’m ready to try it, BUT no posting that I’ve seen yet has had *anything* to say about the question "How much is LOTS?" A common size that I’ve seen for B-1 only tablets is 100 mg, which is 6667% of the US RDA.  Does 100 mg/day qualify as LOTS?

        Yeah, I’d say that’d be sufficient!         I have used it in previous years, and it seems to work ok. Takes about a week to take effect though, and you have to remember to take it every day. It’s not foolproof, but does seem to cut into the population of bugs. EXPERIMENT!                                                         -Pat Salsbury

Response:

I remember being eaten alive in the Wind River Range in Wyoming one spring, in spite of lashings of industrial-strength repellent. At least I had the pleasure of killing 10-20 mozzies in one swat! I met a grizzled old fellow who had been camping in the area for 50 years, and he was totally oblivious to the little monsters.

Name of Finis Mitchell, by any chance? Mitchell Peak in the Cirque of the Towers is named after him. I’ve met him too, totally oblivious to mosquitos feeding on his face, telling us about places around about. That was seven or eight years ago – I wonder if he’s still alive and hiking. He was getting up there… but he was in better shape than I.                                                         Jeff Winslow

Response:

I noticed a hat with mosquito netting draped over the face and neck, kind of like a beekeepers bonnet, in an REI catalog. Has anyone tried one of these hats? Yes, I have used one in Alaska and in the Cascades.  They are hot, they interfere with vision, and are generally obnoxious.

I haven’t seen the REI version, but mine is coarser than no-see-um netting. Highly recommended. It is comfortable, doesn’t interfere w/vision (I find my self enjoying the scenery adequately, though prefer the bugless unimpeded world), and is a very welcome addition to the checklist. Perhaps the above poster is using too fine a mesh ? —

Response:

Have you tried eating LOTS of garlic &/or vitamin B1 for awhile before your trip? They say if you’ve got it oozing out of your pores, the bugs won’t like it. Your friends will be another problem.

So many people in the last few months have been recommending B-1 to ward off mosquitos in the last few months that I’m ready to try it, BUT no posting that I’ve seen yet has had *anything* to say about the question "How much is LOTS?" A common size that I’ve seen for B-1 only tablets is 100 mg, which is 6667% of the US RDA.  Does 100 mg/day qualify as LOTS? More? Should I be choking it down by the wheelbarrow load? Can someone give me an order of magnitude here? Thanks!                                 — Dave Alexander — "When I was a little boy in Baltimore in 1954, I wanted  to be a juvenile delinquent when I grew up."                                 — John Waters

Response:

|   Yes!  They [mosquito net hats] work.  They’re slightly annoying to | wear, altho not as annoying as swarming mosquitoes or the dreaded | black flies.  We took it a step farther.  My wife has made netting | jackets, complete with hood, for us and our kids.  Leggin’s too, so | we can wear shorts in heavy duty bug country. I found a simple way to keep the little buggers from biting through my shirt that doesn’t require any fancy sewing skills.  I got an athletic style mesh T-shirt (looks like it’s made of fine fish net) and I wear it underneath a normal long sleve shirt.  This holds the shirt away from my skin by ~1mm making it difficult for the skeeters to reach me. Works great so long as the temperature isn’t too high. —    Advanced Micro Devices       N5PSS    Austin, Texas                1-(512)-462-5389 "You can’t leap a chasm in two jumps."

Response:

I noticed a hat with mosquito netting draped over the face…. Has anyone tried one of these hats?

My wife brought a couple of these from Canada to New Zealand. You look like a real twit, but at least your a happy twit. To my regret, peering through all that gauze makes fly-fishing impossible. She laughs, I suffer. -bill "I hate the stench of insect repellent" faus

Have you tried eating LOTS of garlic &/or vitamin B1 for awhile before your trip? They say if you’ve got it oozing out of your pores, the bugs won’t like it. Your friends will be another problem. —

Response:

I noticed a hat with mosquito netting draped over the face and neck, kind of like a beekeepers bonnet, in an REI catalog. Has anyone tried one of these hats?

Yes, I have used one in Alaska and in the Cascades.  They are hot, they interfere with vision, and are generally obnoxious.  However they stop all the mosquitos, and also things like deer flies and black flies that aren’t impressed by DEET.  And save you from corroding your skin with noxious chemicals.  I still carry it whenever I go to particularly fierce bug country.                                 Chuck Smythe

Response:

All this got me thinking though, how did people sleeping outdoors in the olden days keep the biting bugs away?  

I’ve heard of people in the old days smearing their skin with mud, but have never tried it as a bug repellent. I’ve also heard that you can develop an immunity to your local mosquitoes, so that you’d still get bitten, but not get as irritated as an outsider would. I remember being eaten alive in the Wind River Range in Wyoming one spring, in spite of lashings of industrial-strength repellent. At least I had the pleasure of killing 10-20 mozzies in one swat! I met a grizzled old fellow who had been camping in the area for 50 years, and he was totally oblivious to the little monsters. —

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I noticed a hat with mosquito netting draped over the face and neck, kind of like a beekeepers bonnet, in an REI catalog. Has anyone tried one of these hats?

  Yes!  They work.  They’re slightly annoying to wear, altho not as annoying as swarming mosquitoes or the dreaded black flies.  We took it a step farther.  My wife has made netting jackets, complete with hood, for us and our kids.  Leggin’s too, so we can wear shorts in heavy duty bug country. -bill "I hate the stench of insect repellent" faus

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On a related subject, I noticed a hat with mosquito netting draped over the face and neck, kind of like a beekeepers bonnet, in an REI catalog. Has anyone tried one of these hats? -bill "I hate the stench of insect repellent" faus

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Jeff Haferman  how did people sleeping outdoors in Jeff Haferman  the olden days keep the biting bugs away? Before the invention of Avon Skin-So-Soft, the ultimate mosquito repellent, we smeared our skin with a mixture of bison grease and wood ashes.  We also migrated from the bug infested banks of the Great Water to higher, dryer ground during the worst of the mosquito season.

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All this got me thinking though, how did people sleeping outdoors in the olden days keep the biting bugs away?  

They only bathed once a month.

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All this got me thinking though, how did people sleeping outdoors in the olden days keep the biting bugs away?  

Not wash for months at a time?

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I slept beneath the stars on the banks of the Mississippi this weekend, and it was beautiful, with 1 exception – I neglected to bring any mosquito repellent.  I covered my head with a thick sweater and this worked pretty well except I would get too hot and have to remove it. Sleeping near the campfire worked pretty well too since the smoke seemed to keep the bugs away. All this got me thinking though, how did people sleeping outdoors in the olden days keep the biting bugs away?   Department of Mechanical Engineering University of Iowa Iowa City IA  52240

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