Question:

What should the flyfishing be like around Hungry Horse, the first two weeks of July? What kind of patterns would be best to have and size?? Doesn’t anyone fish in Montona, or just no one wanting to answer a honest question?????

Wait a week, drive 5 hours to Ennis, and you’ll meet a whole bunch of guys from here who can help you! (see, the "more than you asked for" is starting already…) Regards, Jeff

Response:

Actually, you mean wait a ‘month’ (or two). Clave starts in late July. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm 406-626-4022

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What should the flyfishing be like around Hungry Horse, the first two weeks of July? What kind of patterns would be best to have and size?? Doesn’t anyone fish in Montona, or just no one wanting to answer a honest question????? Wait a week, drive 5 hours to Ennis, and you’ll meet a whole bunch of guys from here who can help you! (see, the "more than you asked for" is starting already…) Regards, Jeff

Response:

Actually, you mean wait a ‘month’ (or two). Clave starts in late July. What should the flyfishing be like around Hungry Horse, the first two weeks of July? What kind of patterns would be best to have and

size?? Geez, I hate it when I don’t read the original post! Do think on fishing the South Fork of the Flathead. My advice would be to take the drive south around Hungry Horse reservoir all the way to the trailhead at Spotted Bear. Hike upstream and start fishing! Attractor patterns work well on the cutts. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm 406-626-4022

Response:

Wait a week, drive 5 hours to Ennis, and you’ll meet a whole bunch of guys from here who can help you!

If the clave in Ennis is next week I wish I would have told everyone that instead of Jul 21-31 Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

He said he’d be there the first couple weeks in July.  I meant if he waited a week from then…. Wait a week, drive 5 hours to Ennis, and you’ll meet a whole bunch of guys from here who can help you! If the clave in Ennis is next week I wish I would have told everyone that instead of Jul 21-31 Warren

Regards, Jeff

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What should the flyfishing be like around Hungry Horse, the first two weeks of July? What kind of patterns would be best to have and size?? Doesn’t anyone fish in Montona, or just no one wanting to answer a honest question????? Wait a week, drive 5 hours to Ennis, and you’ll meet a whole bunch of guys from here who can help you! (see, the "more than you asked for" is starting already…) Regards, Jeff

Wish I could, but vacation is planned and we are taking some of grandkids

Response:

What should the flyfishing be like around Hungry Horse, the first two weeks of July? What kind of patterns would be best to have and size?? Doesn’t anyone fish in Montona, or just no one wanting to answer a honest question?????

well, i don’t know how runoff will be during your time frame… but i’ve heard great things about the s. fork flathead for native cutthroats.  i believe there’s a flyshop in whitefish or kalispell… i’m sure they’d be happy to give you some ideas on what will be best during that time frame.  good luck, it’s beautiful country there.  i wish i had spent more time fishing there, but i usually stop short of that area and fish some of the smaller rivers in nw montana. chris chris

Response:

What should the flyfishing be like around Hungry Horse, the first two weeks of July? What kind of patterns would be best to have and size??

Response:

For hungry horses, try a "haystack".   Very large pattern is probably best. Sorry, couldn

Question:

We are going on a backpacking excursion through SE Asia (Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, China, Brunei, Singapore) for about 6 months. We think that we would like to have a very open itinerary, i.e.-fly to Bangkok, get around however we see fit, and then fly home whenever we’ve had enough. Our options seem to be an open-jaw to a central place like Bangkok, or one of the around-the-world type flights (which may be too restrictive for us). We’re planning everything else well, but are having trouble deciding how to actually fly. Any help or ideas out there? There are so many bucket shops offering deals, it becomes overwhelming. Thanks for all the help we’ve recieved from this newsgroup! Kevin Oppenheimer, D.V.M. and Sandy Raders, D.V.M. To reply by email, please remove "NOSPAM" from address Once you go Mac, you’ll never go back. "The curious thing about fishing is that you never want to go home. If you catch something, you can’t stop. If you don’t catch anything, you hate to leave in case something might bite."

Question:

<SNIP  and my Red Chili dove enchiladas are muy bueno (quail and pheasant have been substituted at times).

<SNIP Sounds delicious!   Care to share the recipe? — George Reinier

Response:

NRA Life Member Sierra Club Life Member NSS life member

Life Life Member — Jeff ORBS Classifieds – Free outdoor classified ads     http://home.pacbell.net/orbs ORBS Escrow – Affordable safety for online buyers and sellers     http://home.pacbell.net/orbs/oe-homepage.html

Response:

Greetings: Just wondering about other people that did this if they carried a fry pan,grill top, or do they make something special for this?

Please see suggestions/possible ideas below. A pan can be a summer luxury, but it is far from a necessity. A mentor made an oven (he was in the Corps of Engineers), and he would bring in Goldens and make brownies or gingerbread (I preferred the brownies), and I would spend the day off climbing, and life was grand.  An oven is even more of a luxury. There used to be commercial ovens, but several factors have reduced seeing them. Improvising is a key.

  Yup, and the hungrier one is, the more one improvises – at least in our camps! I prefer to fry my trout in some oil or butter, lightly coated in corn meal.  (Important note:  If preparing fish this way after dark, _do not_ confuse corn meal bag with  powdered orange juice mix bag!)  :-(  There are many other options – just some examples: One can make a one-time fry pan out of aluminum foil. Wrap trout in aluminum foil and roast on hot coals. Roast them on a stick.   Trout au bleu [blue trout] Someone help me with my French, _please_.

 For this, you must be in a place where trout can be caught immediately: Prepare rest of meal, i.e., make rice and/or suitable other items in advance.  Bring water in pan to boil, and squeeze a little lemon juice in the water.  (You can carry a lemon a long time on most backpacking trips.)  Have someone catch trout and toss to another fellow camper, if possible.  Clean trout, preferably with one stroke, and plunge trout into boiling water.  Boil for about 30 seconds, or until flesh flakes off easily.  If you do this right, the trout flesh will turn light blue, hence the name.  Very light and flaky with most oils boiled away.  Even if the trout flesh doesn’t turn light blue, it will taste good anyway.  On a side note, I heard that fishermen in the northern states, (and perhaps Canada?), sometimes boil large lake trout in 50 gallon drums for fish-feeds.  Is that true?  If so, I would like to try that sometime. "Slurp" indeed!  :-) Cheers, and happy trials,  -Mark NRA Life Member Sierra Club Life Member

Heck, I’d rather write ‘em a check every year, just in case I change my mind!  :-)

Response:

Just wondering about other people that did this if they carried a fry pan,grill top, or do they make something special for this?

A pan can be a summer luxury, but it is far from a necessity. A mentor made an oven (he was in the Corps of Engineers), and he would bring in Goldens and make brownies or gingerbread (I preferred the brownies), and I would spend the day off climbing, and life was grand.  An oven is even more of a luxury. There used to be commercial ovens, but several factors have reduced seeing them. Improvising is a key. NRA Life Member

Sierra Club Life Member

Response:

NRA Life Member Sierra Club Life Member

NSS life member              We’ll cross that bridge when it rears its ugly head

Response:

Just wondering about other people that did this if they carried a fry pan,grill top, or do they make something special for this?

Aluminum foil cannot be overrated.  Trout can be cooked in foil, and a small amount of spice, green pepper, onion, bottled salad dressing, or whatever can be added.  Not a lot to carry, and makes some very tasty fish.   PS.  Do not forget the matches. Steve Spelling, grammar, and content errors intentionally included for those whose only purpose in life is to correct others.  ;-)

Response:

OK to those who do this lets say you like to make a small fire and cook a few for lunch what would I carry a fry pan, small grill top or what? What have you tried.Thanks

For car-camping I bring all the cooking luxuries.  Foil, some lemon and butter work most of the time with a wood fire.  It’s a little difficult to cook up a good sized trout with a Whisperlite though (frying up something you have filleted is easier).  You have to move around your under-sized light-weight backpacking frying pan and flip the fish a few times (I prefer my fish under-cooked, vs. over-cooked).  I do have a moderate weight grate I bring backpacking sometimes. NRA Life Member

Not again. — Ski Abineau! kknisely at parkcity dot com

Response:

I would hike in about 2 1/2 hour hike then fish about 3-4 hours up river I have a good size day pack I use for my waders and boots I would not be close to a car when I cooked the trout. Just wondering about other people that did this if they carried a fry pan,grill top, or do they make something special for this? NRA Life Member

Response:

: OK to those who do this lets say you : like to make a small fire and cook a few : for lunch what would I carry a fry pan, : small grill top or what? What have you : tried.Thanks : NRA Life Member A friend brought along a small butane stove, teflon fry pan, a little oil and a little breading and some tortillas. We had fresh fish tacos alongside the stream on a fine bushwhacking daytrip. The tortillas made a great way to handle the cooked fish. I find that carrying the fish-cooking pan and supplies isn’t worth the weight since I’m already carrying a *reliable* cook-anywhere dinner when backpacking. Fishing is just entertainment for me. Last backpacking trip I was glad I’d left the fishing gear home. It was a very aggressive, off-trail, no-one-we-could-contact-has-ever-been-there kind of trip. My buddy brought his fly rod. Unfortutately  all the high lakes along the way were fish-free and the single stream caught fish wasn’t enough fun to justify bringing the flyrod. I’m glad I wasn’t carrying mine. See http://estes.on-line.com/rmnp/reports/paradise.html   for the story. Ron

Response:

Just wondering about other people that did this if they carried a fry pan,grill top, or do they make something special for this?

I actually carry live trout with me, in addition to the fry pan and grill top. I keep the trout right next to my sled-mounted .308. -Paul John Paul Minda Dept of Psychology University at Buffalo http://wings.buffalo.edu/~minda

Response:

for lunch what would I carry a fry pan, small grill top or what?

Easy.  Pot lids.  Works fine.  No extra weight. They don’t hold the 5.5 lbs ones in one piece, but you learn to make do.

Response:

Paul, I don’t think that is balanced correctly.  I think if you put a .223 with a high capacity magazine opposite and put the trout in the middle, it will balance much better. I have heard, from a reliable source, that this is the way to do it. Chris It is amazing the things you learn here. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just wondering about other people that did this if they carried a fry pan,grill top, or do they make something special for this? I actually carry live trout with me, in addition to the fry pan and grill top. I keep the trout right next to my sled-mounted .308. -Paul John Paul Minda Dept of Psychology University at Buffalo http://wings.buffalo.edu/~minda

Response:

How many of you backpackers trout fish? If I get some responses to this I have more questions.Thanks

You will probably troll better in rec.outdoors.fishing or one of the other fishing groups, either in that group or as a cross-post. But cross-post carefully. I just eat fish.  Like Muir, I find the act of fishing boring. Slurp.

Response:

How many of you backpackers trout fish? Yes  (Of course ALL of us are backpackers and we do nothing else)

I HOPE you either eat them, release them or feed the bears with them. NRA Life Member No

Yes. — Ski Abineau!

Where’s that? Do they have sled trails too?

Response:

OK to those who do this lets say you like to make a small fire and cook a few for lunch what would I carry a fry pan, small grill top or what? What have you tried.Thanks NRA Life Member

Response:

OK to those who do this lets say you like to make a small fire and cook a few for lunch what would I carry a fry pan, small grill top or what? What have you tried.Thanks

There are a myriad of ways to cook fresh trout, and all of them are wonderful.  For details, I highly recommend Rick Greenspan’s "Backpacking: A Hedonist’s Guide." Sadly, it’s out of print, but your local library might have it. Gerald

Response:

I HOPE you either eat them, release them or feed the bears with them.

‘Guess I’m missing your point…what else would you do with them? Generally, I prefer to eat them vs. catch-n-release.  It depends upon where you’re fishing, with whom your fishing with and how many other fish you’ve caught, limits, Blue Ribbon Fishing Waters, etc. NRA Life Member No Yes.

Not all gun owners/hunters are NRA members.  We lived off of elk chili in college and my Red Chili dove enchiladas are muy bueno (quail and pheasant have been substituted at times). — Ski Abineau! Where’s that? Do they have sled trails too?

Sorry, the "chutes" are located well within the Kachina Peaks Wilderness, but there is the "Waterline Road" which is gerrymandered into the Wilderness area (so the City can drive up the road and check on their water pipes).  A nice mtn. bike ride on the road.  When there’s snow, the Flagstaff area is quite popular with the ‘bilers, (N. Rim of GC too). — Ski Abineau! kknisely at parkcity dot com

Response:

Is there any other reason to backpack than to get to out of the way trout water?

Climbing. Spelling, grammar, and content errors intentionally included for those whose only purpose in life is to correct others.  ;-)

I like it.

Response:

How many of you backpackers trout fish? If I get some responses to this I have more questions.Thanks

Done mean fish for trout or catch trout? I’m pretty good at the first and just OK at the second. — Jeff ORBS Classifieds – Free outdoor classified ads     http://home.pacbell.net/orbs ORBS Escrow – Affordable safety for online buyers and sellers     http://home.pacbell.net/orbs/oe-homepage.html

Response:

: How many of you backpackers trout : fish? If I get some responses to this : I have more questions.Thanks Sure. Makes a great way to pass the time when you’re too tired to walk anymore. : NRA Life Member Ron NRA Life too

Response:

I canoe camp, not backpack.  Yes, I flail for trout (recently took it up, it’s not a pretty sight.  But the trout don’t mind.  They just swim in the same spot in the stream and ignore me.). If I were in a survival situation, the last thing I’d be doing is fishing with a line.  Nets.  Nets and weirs.  Just thought I’d drop that in to possibly start a new line dipped and see if I can catch anything bigger and more easily… How many of you backpackers trout fish? If I get some responses to this I have more questions.Thanks NRA Life Member

—– rbc: vixen  (somewhat harmless) 0-0:  The artist formerly known as something else. I only answer my email every few months, on average.   Patience helps.   http://www.visi.com/~cyli

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I do I do!!!!!!!

Response:

Is there any other reason to backpack than to get to out of the way trout water? Fishing is a very nice compliment to backpacking, not to mention you have an extra food source. Fishing is my second most favorite activity. Steve NRA and CCW Devotee Spelling, grammar, and content errors intentionally included for those whose only purpose in life is to correct others.  ;-)

Response:

How many of you backpackers trout fish?

Yes  (Of course ALL of us are backpackers and we do nothing else) NRA Life Member

No — Ski Abineau! kknisely at parkcity dot com

Response:

How many of you backpackers trout fish? If I get some responses to this I have more questions.Thanks NRA Life Member

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Question:

make any difference what I write about.  They will always be there.  The idea is to learn how to nymph fish with words so as to avoid them.  I suppose I will have to nymph fish with just a bare hook from now on? LOL! Actually, WINTER is like fly fishing.  It is a contemplative man’s sport.  It is a good season and the time to get those flies tied and to clean out all the beat up flies and give them to our children.  (Or to those who don’t tie but still like to fly fish).   While the eastern sea board of this country enjoy the blanket of snow that has been so long overdue so that they can have a fresh water supply later into the year then of the recent past, I can visualize Walt Winter, Tom Brown, Wayne Harrison, Jeff Miller, and other gentlemen of the realm, sipping a libation and tying those diminutive little creations that fool very big fish. Fly-Maker’s Wax could/should be mentioned here because since Mike Overton’s untimely death, this is the improved product that originally was Wonder Wax.  What is amazing about having a nice wax on the fly tying bench is that these tubes last for over ten or more years for the majority of fly tiers.  For the commercial tier, they don’t last as long.  Maybe a year or a little more. What I want to talk about is fly tying wax at the vise site.  With the choice we use, there are some interesting features regarding the old and new formulas that cannot be found in any other waxes in the world.   When dubbing, the idea is to understand that "The Smaller the Fly, The Greater the Need" when it comes to using wax or not.  This is because greater control is required to lay the small amount of dubbing on a size #22 hook in such a manner as to form the body shape that is defined, not guessed at.   With the tube of wax right at hand, I have two basic choices on how to apply the wax and/or dubbing.  The first way is to simply stroke a little wax down the dubbing section of the thread to be used.  The second way is to take the shooting finger of your hand and simply rubbing it across the wax and then take a little dubbing and apply it to the thread, spinning in only one direction.   After one uses the latter method, a secret few know is if one has a little cloth on their lap, it is a simple matter to use just PRESSURE and the wax comes off the finger tips.  This wax grabs or releases depending upon the amount of pressure applied.  It is the only wax in the industry that will do this. I like perfectly formed flies.  They should almost look like the real thing.  The personality of fly tying materials are as varied as one could hope for.  Some of it needs to be forced into behaving correctly. A good Fly-Tying Wax will do that. A good wax will also help preserve the threads used that bind a fly for well over a hundred years.  The wax must have as near a neutral bouyance as possible.  In the water, it should not try to float the fly nor sink it.  That feature should be left up to other means. What about scents used in some brands of waxes is a personal choice, I suppose.  We don’t do that as our product has its own distinctive wax oder.  It comes from the base bee’s wax that is found in only one part of the United States and is a guarded secret.  To be perfectly frank, we suspect trout have no objection to ours on a sensory level.  Nothing ventured, nothing gained I suppose. If you wish to know more about fly tying waxes, visit the url below. Mr. G. — http://www.gink.com/gg_flymakers.html http://www.gink.com/

Response:

Gerkhe Gentlemen don’t spam the news groups to turn a buck.

Response:

Gerkhe Gentlemen don’t spam the news groups to turn a buck.

______  If and when we do, I’ll let you know.  I’d appreciate it if you would stick to fly fishing Plado.   Thank you, Mr. G. — http://www.gink.com/gg_flymakers.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Truly clueless.  Does not even realize what spam is.

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Question:

Hi All, I realize the following does not relate to fly fishing.  However, it does relate to our ability to communicate with each other as we do on ROFF. If anyone can show me how to send it to other news groups without subscribing to each one (there are thousands of groups), I would appreciate it.  Please forward this to all you know. PLEASE EMAIL YOUR CONGRESSMAN AND TELL HIM YOU DON’T WANT THIS TO HAPPEN. Pete Please read the following carefully if you intend to stay on-line and continue using e-mail: The last few months have revealed an alarming trend in the Government of the United States attempting to quietly push through legislation that will affect your use of the Internet. Under proposed legislation the US. Postal Service will be attempting to bilk email users out of "alternate postage fees".  Bill 602P will permit the Federal Govt. to charge a 5 cent surcharge on every email delivered, by billing Internet Service Providers at source. The consumer would then be billed in turn by the ISP.  Washington D.C. lawyer Richard Stepp is working without pay to prevent this legislation from becoming law. The U.S. Postal Service is claiming that lost revenue due to the proliferation of email is costing nearly $230,000,000 in revenue per year. You may have noticed their recent ad campaign "There is nothing like a letter".  Since the average citizen received about 10 pieces of email per day in 1998, the cost to the typical individual would be an additional 50 cents per day, or over $180 dollars per year, above and beyond their regular Internet costs.  Note that this would be money paid directly to the U.S. Postal Service for a service they do not even provide.  The whole point of the Internet is democracy and noninterference. If the federal government is permitted to tamper with our liberties by adding a surcharge to email, who knows where it will end.  You are already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail because of bureaucratic inefficiency. If the U.S. Postal Service is allowed to tinker with email, it will mark the end of the "free" Internet in the United States.  One congressman, Tony Schnell has even suggested a "twenty to forty dollar per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond the government’s proposed email charges.  Note that most of the major newspapers have ignored the story, the only exception being the Washingtonian which called the idea of email surcharge "a useful concept whose time has come" (March 6, 1999 Editorial). Don’t sit by and watch your freedom erode away!  Send this email to all Americans on your list and tell your friends and relatives to write to their congressman and say "No!" to Bill 602P. Kate Turner, Assistant to Richard Stepp Berger, Stepp and Gorman Attorneys at Law 216 Concorde Street Vienna, VA URGENT!!!! Pass this along to all your email buddies!

Response:

Thanks to Ken for the heads up relating to spamming.  I did not realize that would be spamming.   I thought advertising a business would be spamming. If you do want to email your congressman regarding this bill which will charge us 5 cents per emailing you can find his address by going to the below web site. http://www.webslingerz.com/jhoffman/congress-email.html Pete

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pete, this is one of those urban myths we’ve all heard about. This one has fooled a lot of folks but it’s untrue. Even if it were true you would NOT want to send this to thousands of newsgroups. That’s called spamming and would almost certainly result in mindspring yanking your account. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Pete, this is one of those urban myths we’ve all heard about. This one has fooled a lot of folks but it’s untrue. Even if it were true you would NOT want to send this to thousands of newsgroups. That’s called spamming and would almost certainly result in mindspring yanking your account. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Hi All, I realize the following does not relate to fly fishing.  However, it does relate to our ability to communicate with each other as we do on ROFF. If anyone can show me how to send it to other news groups without subscribing to each one (there are thousands of groups), I would appreciate it.  Please forward this to all you know. PLEASE EMAIL YOUR CONGRESSMAN AND TELL HIM YOU DON’T WANT THIS TO HAPPEN. Pete

We just managed to get the de facto monopoly, coupled with extortionate online charges etc  here to open up. I would like to see what would happen to anybody who now tried to charge us for e-mails. American congressmen included. TL MC

Response:

602P

Um….Pete, don’t believe everything you see on your computer. First of all, there is no such bill "602P". The closest listed bill – H.R.602- is titled: "Civil Service Long-Term Care Insurance Benefit Act (Introduced in the House)". Not even close. Second, there are only two bills in the entire House or Senate that even mention the word "email": H.R.1910 "To prohibit abuses in the use of unsolicited bulk electronic mail, and for other purposes" (aka the "E-Mail User Protection Act"); and S.809 "Online Privacy Protection Act of 1999" (another Good Thing). Neither of them discuss or describe user fees. Third, even the Postmaster General has refuted the existence of such a plan. You’ve been sucked into one of the better "e-ruses" that have gone around lately. It’s best not to proliferate these throughout Usenet – no matter how much sense they seem to make… /daytripper (source: THOMAS)

Response:

[snipped myself. OUCH!] Did a lookup on "electronic" + "email" and got two more hits: H.R.3113 "Unsolicited Electronic Mail Act of 1999" (‘… to protect individuals, families, and Internet service providers from unsolicited and unwanted electronic mail.’) H.R.1685 "Internet Growth and Development Act" (‘…to provide for the recognition of electronic signatures for the conduct of interstate and foreign commerce, to restrict the transmission of certain electronic mail advertisements, to authorize the Federal Trade Commission to prescribe rules to protect the privacy of users of commercial Internet websites, to promote the rapid deployment of broadband Internet services, and for other purposes.’) Both "Good Things" (imo); and neither mention fees for the likes of us… /daytripper (source: THOMAS)

Response:

602P Um….Pete, don’t believe everything you see on your computer. snip< Third, even the Postmaster General has refuted the existence of such a plan. You’ve been sucked into one of the better "e-ruses" that have gone around lately. It’s best not to proliferate these throughout Usenet – no matter how much sense they seem to make…

I happened to be on the US Postal Service site for another reason and saw that this hoax is apparently so widespread that even the USPS has a refutation on their site. Joe F.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snipped myself. OUCH!] Did a lookup on "electronic" + "email" and got two more hits: H.R.3113 "Unsolicited Electronic Mail Act of 1999" (‘… to protect individuals, families, and Internet service providers from unsolicited and unwanted electronic mail.’) H.R.1685 "Internet Growth and Development Act" (‘…to provide for the recognition of electronic signatures for the conduct of interstate and foreign commerce, to restrict the transmission of certain electronic mail advertisements, to authorize the Federal Trade Commission to prescribe rules to protect the privacy of users of commercial Internet websites, to promote the rapid deployment of broadband Internet services, and for other purposes.’) Both "Good Things" (imo); and neither mention fees for the likes of us… /daytripper (source: THOMAS)

They had the same hoax going around in the Great White North only it was Canada Post and the naughty Chretien Liberals who were the villians.  Had a phony bill too, if I recall. Peter

Response:

SNIP SNIP " You are already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail because of bureaucratic inefficiency."

SNIP SNIP Obviously Im not in favor of a stamp/tax on Email But . . . Your statement above strikes me as bullshit. How is 35 cents "exorbitant?" Compared to what? Some country does it better for less? You know of some private or public enterprize that delivers the same or more value added for 35 cents? On this or any other galaxy? Inefficiency? Ever seen an automated mail sorting facility? Dave

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SNIP SNIP " You are already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail because of bureaucratic inefficiency." SNIP SNIP Obviously Im not in favor of a stamp/tax on Email But . . . Your statement above strikes me as bullshit. How is 35 cents "exorbitant?" Compared to what? Some country does it better for less? You know of some private or public enterprize that delivers the same or more value added for 35 cents? On this or any other galaxy? Inefficiency? Ever seen an automated mail sorting facility? Dave

I’ll also point out that the US Postal Service is one government agency that turns a profit. They really should work on their customer service, though. Going into a big-city post office is still as close as you’ll get to a Stalinist experience in the US. My post office in California routinely loses packages. However, the little post office in Stanley is a well-run, friendly place. The postmaster (postmistress?) knows all the local people by name. I had a problem with ordering stuff to be delivered by UPS because the houses in Stanley don’t have street addresses, which UPS requires. The postmaster just told me to make up an address and she’d tell the UPS guy where I lived. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Question:

        i would have preferred to send this communication on an email basis;  but we are too many for that.         finally, i hope that i am not too late to change the mind of one of the best of us; i hope that our english will reconsider, and stand with the rest of us, from timbo to jimbo, to….(god help me) ralph h,

God has helped me and I am sure he will help you as well.. Ralph H

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<A bunch of nice stuff Usenet tradition addresses a good many of the problems that led to our brouhaha. I’m going to append the Welcome to Usenet from news.announce.newusers. Anyone that comes to a Usenet newsgroup should be able to expect a level of respect and decorum. Everyone from an 11 year old looking at flyfishing for the first time to a 60 year old with a closet full of degrees. We shoot the bull, swap tall tales and start to feel like we’re the Famous Grouse Good Old Boy’s Club, but we’re not. We are a Usenet newsgroup and in a junior high computer lab somewhere an 11 year old is getting a decidedly unfair advantage over his peers. I mean, imagine, swearing lessons from the great George Gehrke himself delivered straight to the screen. The kid will be a scourge and I hope his mom doesn’t ask where he learned that ! "The resources of civilization against its enemies are not exhausted."                                                         -Gladstone- Ken Fortenberry Welcome to Usenet!  The newsgroup news.announce.newusers contains a lot of introductory information about Usenet.  All new users should read and fully understand all the documents in news.announce.newusers before trying to post messages to Usenet or create new Usenet groups.  This may take a while, but it will help you find your way around Usenet much more easily. This short message is repeated three times a week to ensure that it is always available on your news system.  All other documents in news.announce.newusers are repeated every two weeks and should stay around for at least a month.  If you find news.announce.newusers empty (or cannot figure out how to read documents in it), please contact the help desk, customer support or news administrator on the computer system or service that you’re using and ask them for help.  Please do not send me e-mail asking for help reading news on your computer system or service. Please do not try to post or send any messages to news.announce.newusers. This is the list of the documents that news.announce.newusers should contain:         What is Usenet?         What is Usenet?  A second opinion.         Rules for posting to Usenet         Hints on writing style for Usenet         A Primer on How to Work With the Usenet Community         Emily Postnews Answers Your Questions on Netiquette         How to find the right place to post (FAQ)         Introduction to news.announce         A Guide to Social Newsgroups and Mailing Lists         Introduction to the *.answers newsgroups         FAQs about FAQs         Anonymous FTP: Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) List         Advertising on Usenet: How To Do It, How Not To Do It         Copyright Myths FAQ: 10 big myths about copyright explained         Answers to Frequently Asked Questions about Usenet         How to Get Information about Networks         How to become a Usenet site         Usenet Software: History and Sources         Guidelines on Usenet Newsgroup Names         How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup If you don’t see any of these documents in the newsgroup, you can ask for them by sending mail to with the following in the body of the message.  Note the address carefully; please do NOT send these requests to me. setdir usenet-by-group/news.announce.newusers send What_is_Usenet? send What_is_Usenet?__A_second_opinion. send Rules_for_posting_to_Usenet send Hints_on_writing_style_for_Usenet send A_Primer_on_How_to_Work_With_the_Usenet_Community send Emily_Postnews_Answers_Your_Questions_on_Netiquette send How_to_find_the_right_place_to_post_(FAQ) send Introduction_to_news.announce send A_Guide_to_Social_Newsgroups_and_Mailing_Lists send Introduction_to_the_*.answers_newsgroups send FAQs_about_FAQs send Anonymous_FTP:_Frequently_Asked_Questions_(FAQ)_List send Advertising_on_Usenet:_How_To_Do_It,_How_Not_To_Do_It send Copyright_Myths_FAQ:_10_big_myths_about_copyright_explained send Answers_to_Frequently_Asked_Questions_about_Usenet send FAQ:_How_to_find_people_s_E-mail_addresses send How_to_Get_Information_about_Networks send How_to_become_a_Usenet_site send Usenet_Software:_History_and_Sources send Guidelines_on_Usenet_Newsgroup_Names send How_to_Create_a_New_Usenet_Newsgroup quit You can also find these documents on the World Wide Web;  see         http://www.netannounce.org/news.announce.newusers/

Response:

        some observations:  it appears to me, unscientifically, that the postings to this group have undergone a massive increase in the last couple months.  the influx of newcomers has included some very bizarre, often unpleasant contributors.  many of the newbies have failed to understand (understandably) some of george gerkhe’s posts, and the wierdness thereof.  confrontations have been engendered thereby.  furthermore, the tendency of many to engage in what i will always contend are the only taboos (politics and religion) have contributed to the confrontational atmosphere.  this is a wonderful, but fragile, environment.  by my best count, there are more than fifty souls that emit consistently high levels of humor, insight, information, life advice, and all around bullshit, on a daily basis. many of us have made friends here.         but growth carries with it certain problems.  some folks don’t assimilate as comfortably as others.  some folks have no patience with the foibles of others, others who are fixtures in this group.  there comes a time when we must deal with the changes wrought by growth. one of those times has come, today.  one of the most intelligent, witty, and general good guys i have ever known has announced his intention to resign from this group.  that is truly unfortunate.  all of us hope that he will reconsider, find patience, and stay.  surely, though, this is a sufficient sign that we must discipline ourselves in the areas of communication that are most disruptive of the general good:  politics, and spam.         in short, we must call upon george to cease his relentless spamming.  i have come to consider the man a friend of mine; but we can no longer wink at george’s excesses while tearing the stranger limb from limb for less offensive posts.         i would have preferred to send this communication on an email basis;  but we are too many for that.           finally, i hope that i am not too late to change the mind of one of the best of us; i hope that our english will reconsider, and stand with the rest of us, from timbo to jimbo, from ken to ken, from charlie to yankee dave, from snedeker to the royal wulff, from fletcher (who is too silent for our own good) to (god help me) ralph h, to jon, the father of us all.  from waldo and john (not ever annis) popp, and all the rest of us,  the waynes and mark, and tom…         stick with us, connor. wayno  

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Question:

A friend is going on his honeymoon on Maui and was looking for some suggestions on where to go fly fishing.Any fly patterns or where there is a good tackle shop to stop in at would be appreciated. Thanks , jeff

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A friend is going on his honeymoon on Maui and was looking for some suggestions on where to go fly fishing.Any fly patterns or where there is a good tackle shop to stop in at would be appreciated. Thanks , jeff

I would also like to hear some suggestions.  I plan on taking a trip there soon and would like to put in some time fly fishing.  I have heard fishing the islands can be pretty tough however…anyone have info on Maui? -Greg

Response:

A friend is going on his honeymoon on Maui and was looking for some suggestions on where to go fly fishing.Any fly patterns or where there is a good tackle shop to stop in at would be appreciated. Thanks , jeff

Hi Jeff, I heard that there was a bike shop that had some fly fishing equipment. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

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Question:

The historic Antrim Lodge, located in Roscoe, New York is falling into a state of disrepair.  We recently relocated to Roscoe from New Jersey, and are renovating our own 100-year old victorian, but we hate to see the last of the Roscoe hotels go to seed. Now, we’re not into the real estate business and this is not a for sale ad since we have absolutely no connection to this place other than it being two blocks away from our home.  What we’re wondering is whether there exists any individual(s) interested in looking at this place to see what can be done with it.  We’d be happy to coordinate a meeting, perhaps on opening day or the weekend afterward…If no one single individual can handle it, then maybe some form of limited partnership. Of course, the highest and best use for this place would be a flyfishing club, restaurant and possible fishing-related shops.  But’s it’s been vacant for three years, and needs a lot of work.  Paint peeling off inside and out, mechanicals need to be brought up to code, etc., and redesign of rooms…. Originally and currently set up for 23 "fisherman" rooms, most of which have no common or shared bathroom.  Two stone fireplaces, one on the lower level in the "great room", and one on the main floor near the entrance where a new restaurant should be located.  Large "modern" stainless steel kitchen, but wasting away thru non-use.  Parking for about 26 cars, large mature trees on 1-1/2 acre lot. Lot’s of fishing greats have stayed at, drank at, and told their Beaverkill stories at the Antrim.  Built in the late 19th century and originally known as Central House, the Antrim now has good highway visibility, easy access off the Southern Tier thruway system, and within walking distance to the Beaverkill River.  There are two flyfishing specialty shops in Roscoe, Donegal’s and the Beaverkill Angler (an Orvis shop). Roscoe has some resident local nature artists, and the area has recently seen an influx of New York City expats. The Antrim has been for sale for the past couple years, and the asking price has been about $250,000.  I believe a renovation could add another $150-250,000 so it’s not a little project.  Those old rooms need to probably be combined to make about ten larger rooms with private bath…maybe a group of new owners could each own a room or develop a time share.  But let’s consider doing -something- with this place. The previous restaurant operation at the Antrim was run by a fine Greek gentleman, but the Greek food turned off the locals and visiting fishermen alike.  We need to see traditional American sportsman dining there amidst Adirondack style decor.   If you have some interest, and a measure of potential resource to back it up, please let us know, and we’ll see if we can coordinate a meeting.  The annual Catskill Flyfishing Center’s dinner and auction is also coming up on the Calendar scheduled for the weekend after opening day in case your planning on coming up this way. Email us if your interested…let’s see what we can make happen. Cheers, Marie Wisco

Response:

The historic Antrim Lodge, located in Roscoe, New York is falling into a state of disrepair.  <snip

I wish I had 1/2 million I had no other use for!  I remember my first reading on flyfishing mentioning the Antrim – a favorite of many of the great personalities of Fly Fishing. Zern, Gingrich, etc.  It must have been wonderful. It is more than a shame that this grand old place has fallen on such hard times. Todays realities are that such places are often doomed to decay.  The investment required is substantial, and the return not likely to be great. It would be wonderful if some Very Rich Person, came along and made it a lifes work.  It would be a better world knowing places like the Antrim live and that one day I might belly to the bar there. </chaz — "resistance is futile"

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Question:

I’m interested in submitting some pictures for magazines but not sure how to do it.  Anyone know anything about this? bruce

Response:

I’m interested in submitting some pictures for magazines but not sure how to do it.  Anyone know anything about this? bruce

Hi Bruce Most of the magazines I deal with request slides of the topic. One of the things I discovered caused me to start shooting my slide differently. Before working for magazine editors I always shot my slides for inclusion in slide shows and preferred them to be a little denser rather than the opposite. The editors I work with prefer a slide that a bit lighter than what I used to call normal. I now shoot my slides at a lower ASA rating than the film calls for (ASA 400 shot at 375). One way to sell your photo’s is to call the editor, let him know what you have, and arrange to send him/her samples. Good luck. If you want me to look your photo’s over, email me and we’ll see what we can arrange. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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Your best bet is to shoot slow speed slide film.  KR64 is the the traditional favorite and you can’t go wrong with this. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m interested in submitting some pictures for magazines but not sure how to do it.  Anyone know anything about this? bruce

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Bruce The first thing you do is write the magazine you’re interested in–typically the managing editor–and ask for a copy of their editorial guidelines. Some buy most of their pictures from outside sources, many only use pictures shot by the folks writing the story. Just depends. Most will prefer you write a letter describing what you want to sell rather than getting a box of slides–no one wants to be responsible for your slides unless they ask for them. yeah most won’t buy prints but  some will. Once you see rates you may give up on this by the way. Only a relative handful of folks pay enough for pictures to justify owning a camera. Good luck — www.geocities.com/~tarponguide

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: Most of the magazines I deal with request slides of the topic. One of the : things I discovered caused me to start shooting my slide differently. : Before working for magazine editors I always shot my slides for inclusion : in slide shows and preferred them to be a little denser rather than the : opposite. The editors I work with prefer a slide that a bit lighter than : what I used to call normal. I now shoot my slides at a lower ASA rating : than the film calls for (ASA 400 shot at 375). I’m sure my experience with magazine photos is much more limited than Al’s but I agree with the advice about lighter photos… at least I think that is what Al was saying by making the photos less dense.  Dark negs or slides I’ve submitted print up even darker in a magazine.  But I might have Al’s comments wrong, because I underexpose my film to make a lighter slide, which translates into moving the ASA setting on the camera a notch higher (e.g. 425 rather than 400) rather than Al’s suggestion to go lower. Did I miss something Al? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Leitheiser) writes: Normally "best" results are obtained with reversal films by overexposing a 1/2 stop or so, ie. shoot a 400 film at EI 350 or so. This keeps the shadows from being too dark…course it depends a bit <<snip   : Most of the magazines I deal with request slides of the topic. One of the : things I discovered caused me to start shooting my slide differently. : Before working for magazine editors I always shot my slides for inclusion : in slide shows and preferred them to be a little denser rather than the : opposite. The editors I work with prefer a slide that a bit lighter than : what I used to call normal. I now shoot my slides at a lower ASA rating : than the film calls for (ASA 400 shot at 375). I’m sure my experience with magazine photos is much more limited than Al’s but I agree with the advice about lighter photos… at least I think that is what Al was saying by making the photos less dense.  Dark negs or slides I’ve submitted print up even darker in a magazine.  But I might have Al’s comments wrong, because I underexpose my film to make a lighter slide, which translates into moving the ASA setting on the camera a notch higher (e.g. 425 rather than 400) rather than Al’s suggestion to go lower. Did I miss something Al? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –  

Dense NEAGATIVES "print" lighter…Dense SLIDES "print" darker. I think you guys are meaning to say the same thing but are mixing positives and David Jones

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1) There is a simple way of keeping "exposures" straight when dealing with any camera: bracket your shot: that is shoot three shots, one normal, one a half-stop over exposed and one a half stop underexposed. 2) If you cannot bracket here are some basic guidelines:    For color slides, "open up a stop, especially in clear sunny weather where the shadows will loose their detail quite quickly because they are 2 to three stops darker than sunlight. This is particularly with Kodachrome film, which is processed differently than the E-6 films such as Fuji or Ektachromes. And despite what most people say, no E6 processed film can be as sharp as Kodachrome because of the way it’s processed. 3)  For prints, there is more latitude in overall exposure because some exposure problems can be corrected when printing. 4)  Like Al Beatty, always "open" up a stop for photographs intended for publications. Magazines – and slide shows for that matter – do not like black shadows! Good shooting! 3)

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Bob makes some good suggestions, especially about using a fill-in flash for outdoor slide work with close-up subjects.  Although art departments can "improve" a sloppy slide, I believe editors generally like the slides to be good to begin with….  Helps you get past the gate keeper. Once upon a time, Kodachrome 64 (and to a lesser extent Kodakchrome 25) were standards for outdoor magazine work.  Most outdoor magazine photographers that I knew would set the ASA at one setting under when shooting kodakchrome so as to slightly underexpose the slide and get rich, deep colour tones for printing in magazines. Nowadays, many (if not virtually all) outdoor photographers shooting for magazine publication use one of the modern E-6 films, for example Velvia 50 or Provia 100.  Most shoot this modern E-6 film dead on.  [It has taken me a while to adjust from Kodachrome--expensive in film .] A friend of mine who is a professional outdoor and nature photographer in PEI, will occasionally shoot the Velvia 50 *slightly* over-exposed in order to reduce the contrast (i.e., the surrealistic drenching colours).  I hear that Velvia 50 shoots well "pushed" but have yet to experiment with it. Boy, it sure gives nice results if you get the exposure right! Anyhow, this might all be of historic curiosity value if what I hear is true, in another few years, computer technology will have made slide and other film obsolete! One last thing:  whether for magazine publication, books or slides shows that you put on at your local club, I would encourage everybody to take as nice slides as possible of this your _favourite_ sport.  A good picture is worth a 1000 words and I believe that tasteful, good quality pictures of our favourite outdoor recreation help politically promote this sport and mobilize the political and economic resources to preserve (and if necessary restore) habitat–vital to good sport fisheries. Off my box!

: Been following this thread and thoght I’d throw my two pennies in. I : publish a magazine so I’ve had a smidgeon of experience re reproducing : photos, both slide and prints. : All slides, for that matter even all prints, will be scanned by a computer : operator into Photoshop, where they can be lightened, darkened, made more : contrasty, do color corrections, whatever the art department determines is : necessary preparatory to going to press. My opinion: shoot it normal, just : like you were gonna use it for  slide show. Or if you can afford a lot of : shots, then bracket the shot both sides of normal exposure. : I really like to keep things simple, and shooting normally is the : simplest. Let the art department make any corrections they want or need : and don’t try to do it with altering ASA numbers. If you find that the : photos are coming out dark in the printed magazine, it is because the art : department has not adjusted the contrast or brightness correctly. It’s : generally not the photographers fault. In fact, a good art department can : improve the looks of a bad photo to make it look good, probably as much as : 50% better. : Also, just a suggestion, when shooting outdoors, I use a fill flash on : almost every shot. It makes a world of difference and really gives a three : dimensional feel to the shot. Try it and you’ll see. : Bob Vorel — Burnaby, BC

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: Most of the magazines I deal with request slides of the topic. One of the : opposite. The editors I work with prefer a slide that a bit lighter than : what I used to call normal. I now shoot my slides at a lower ASA rating have Al’s comments wrong, because I underexpose my film to make a lighter slide, which translates into moving the ASA setting on the camera a notch higher (e.g. 425 rather than 400) rather than Al’s suggestion to go lower.

This corresponds, I think, to what I have seen reccomended, i.e., use of a high contrast film.  Underexposure should produce a higher contrast image. -Burton

Response:

I’m sure my experience with magazine photos is much more limited than Al’s but I agree with the advice about lighter photos… at least I think that is what Al was saying by making the photos less dense.  Dark negs or slides I’ve submitted print up even darker in a magazine.  But I might have Al’s comments wrong, because I underexpose my film to make a lighter slide, which translates into moving the ASA setting on the camera a notch higher (e.g. 425 rather than 400) rather than Al’s suggestion to go lower. Did I miss something Al? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/

I believe Al is correct, Rick.  By setting the ASA lower the camera thinks you are using slower film and will open the lens up more, or tell you to open the lens up,to compensate. This will give you a less dense,lighter slide.  TRy it.  I think you’ll like it. Paul

Response:

Been following this thread and thoght I’d throw my two pennies in. I publish a magazine so I’ve had a smidgeon of experience re reproducing photos, both slide and prints. All slides, for that matter even all prints, will be scanned by a computer operator into Photoshop, where they can be lightened, darkened, made more contrasty, do color corrections, whatever the art department determines is necessary preparatory to going to press. My opinion: shoot it normal, just like you were gonna use it for  slide show. Or if you can afford a lot of shots, then bracket the shot both sides of normal exposure. I really like to keep things simple, and shooting normally is the simplest. Let the art department make any corrections they want or need and don’t try to do it with altering ASA numbers. If you find that the photos are coming out dark in the printed magazine, it is because the art department has not adjusted the contrast or brightness correctly. It’s generally not the photographers fault. In fact, a good art department can improve the looks of a bad photo to make it look good, probably as much as 50% better. Also, just a suggestion, when shooting outdoors, I use a fill flash on almost every shot. It makes a world of difference and really gives a three dimensional feel to the shot. Try it and you’ll see. Bob Vorel

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Most of the magazines I deal with request slides of the topic. One of the : things I discovered caused me to start shooting my slide differently. : Before working for magazine editors I always shot my slides for inclusion : in slide shows and preferred them to be a little denser rather than the : opposite. The editors I work with prefer a slide that a bit lighter than : what I used to call normal. I now shoot my slides at a lower ASA rating : than the film calls for (ASA 400 shot at 375). I’m sure my experience with magazine photos is much more limited than Al’s but I agree with the advice about lighter photos… at least I think that is what Al was saying by making the photos less dense.  Dark negs or slides I’ve submitted print up even darker in a magazine.  But I might have Al’s comments wrong, because I underexpose my film to make a lighter slide, which translates into moving the ASA setting on the camera a notch higher (e.g. 425 rather than 400) rather than Al’s suggestion to go lower. Did I miss something Al? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Actually,  to make a slide lighter (thinner, less dense) you expose it more; that is, you set a lower ASA.  That way the camera gives it more exposure.  The same for negatives.  As you give them more exposure the negative itseld gets denser, which when printed results in a lighter print.  All within limits, of course.  Bill Mack

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Normally "best" results are obtained with reversal films by overexposing a 1/2 stop or so, ie. shoot a 400 film at EI 350 or so. This keeps the shadows from being too dark…course it depends a bit on your metering technique.  So many publications are scanning direct from the negative or slide now that it shouldn’t make any difference because of all the digital manipulation (now there is a catchy phrase) that they can do with the original.  Is that what reading how to/where to go complete with illustrations is?  FFing digital manipulation?   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Most of the magazines I deal with request slides of the topic. One of the : things I discovered caused me to start shooting my slide differently. : Before working for magazine editors I always shot my slides for inclusion : in slide shows and preferred them to be a little denser rather than the : opposite. The editors I work with prefer a slide that a bit lighter than : what I used to call normal. I now shoot my slides at a lower ASA rating : than the film calls for (ASA 400 shot at 375). I’m sure my experience with magazine photos is much more limited than Al’s but I agree with the advice about lighter photos… at least I think that is what Al was saying by making the photos less dense.  Dark negs or slides I’ve submitted print up even darker in a magazine.  But I might have Al’s comments wrong, because I underexpose my film to make a lighter slide, which translates into moving the ASA setting on the camera a notch higher (e.g. 425 rather than 400) rather than Al’s suggestion to go lower. Did I miss something Al? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                           Tom McGuane

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Question:

I’m new to the Washington State area and would like to try my luck on some of the rivers and streams in the western half of the state.  Would any body mind dirrecting me to some decent rivers in this area, mind you, I don’t want to know your secret spot but maybe the location of some productive streams/rivers. Thank you in advance for any information you all might render.

Response:

I am going to Cancun in mid april with my company, and I would like to know if there is any fly-fishing in the immediate area around Cancun.   If you know of anything or anyone please let me know.  Thank You.

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