Question:

<Wonderful story snipped Russell Still euphoric, heck maybe giddy!

Welcome back. We missed you.    Signed     Fish

Response:

*thick skin* to venture here(though why that is necessary to discuss something and tranquil and relaxing as fly fishing is beyond me)

So one would think… I was born and raised near Driggs, Idaho. Driggs is located in the middle of Teton Valley in southeastern Idaho. Running right down the middle of the valley is the Teton River.

That must’ve been beautiful. Growing up I was quite oblivious of the existence of the river

Youth is wasted on the young, as a wise and no doubt old man said. I set the hook and landed the most beautiful seven-inch brown trout I had ever seen, well at least in the last ten years.

I think returning makes it all the sweeter. Still euphoric, heck maybe giddy!

Happens to me all the time. Very nice read, Russell. Thanks for sharing. Steve

Response:

<snip I was euphoric. I thanked the fish, thanked my doctor and thanked God. (There have been many other and probably more important benefits that have come from getting my eyes fixed but none have made me happier.)

Your post reminded me that I sometimes take all this good stuff for granted. I just opened the shades in my office and spent a few minutes reveling in the joy of sight. If you’ve been lurking as you say, you’ve noticed some pretty heated discussions on photography. Interesting that we could all get so wrapped up in the topic of which is better and why, while others are just glad to see *any* image. My wife bought me a fishing licence for Father’s Day.

You’ve got a keeper there! She obviously saw the joy your new-found sight brought. Congrats. I bought me some new hip waders and patched my chest waders. I have made it out a few times since with great success. Thursday evening I am headed to Idaho to take care of some family business. I will be taking my rod, vest, waders and float tube and plan on being on the Teton River very early Friday morning. That is where it all started. I can’t wait.

I await your TR. Good luck catching fish, but *that* isn’t the most important part, now is it?  :) Still euphoric, heck maybe giddy!

Keep spreading it around, my friend. You do it well. — TL, Tim

Response:

  (This is a repost of a message I sent on July 7. The original somehow   never made it out of my ISP’s server so I’m reposting with Google. A   TR will follow later.)     Because of a renewed (I’ll explain why renewed in a bit) interest in   fly-fishing, I started lurking in ROFF about a month and a half ago.   The more I observed from the banks, the more I began to wonder if I   dare wade in lest I get my head bit off. you stupid son of a bitch – just a little something to make you feel like part of the group! Welcome to ROFF! There’s a Clave this Fall at Henry’s Fork. Willi

Response:

Russell Great story. Years ago fishing Spanish Fork and hunting mulies in the oak brush foothills with an old Enfield above the powder house helped keep me a reasonably sane undergrad. When things got too weird we’d head for the railroad cafe at the Thistle junction for some pie and coffee.

The town of Thistle no longer exists. In 1983 it was wiped out by a landslide that so blocked the Spanish Fork River that it created a big lake over the town. Here’s a picture of the dam and lake. Thistle is under the water on the left/middle part of the picture. http://landslides.usgs.gov/html_files/landslides/slides/slide3.htm Here is a pretty concise description of what happened: http://www.trainweb.org/utahrails/locales/thistle.html to see the stainless steel cars of the California Zephyr coming out of the Canyon up from Denver in the snow, 100% USA built, on past thousands of sheep on the flat in Winter enclosures, and headed for Salt Lake. I just got to get back to that country someday, visit the Art Museum in Springville

A true treasure of this state. and maybe head on down to Helper in the Utah coal country.

Ah, Helper! I lived in Price from 1977 to 1979 and worked in a coal mine just north of Helper. What great country that is. Price is one of the best places that I’ve ever lived. Great people down there. Russell

Response:

Great story Russell, my best wishes for you. Do yourself a favour wear polarised glasses. That improves your sight in/on the water, but the best point is it protects your eyes. I tell you this, because I  hooked my cheek  directly under my left eye last time I was fishing. That was painful enough, can

Question:

For August, I’m hoping to put together a trip to fish the areas around Fordyce lake.. and this time, backpack required!

Generally I find that if fish refuse in those high lakes, try going smaller like 18 or 20.  Most times for hungry wild trout you figure size 14 will do but for some reason those high country fish can get skittish. Mu

Response:

I tried the 18’s I had, including caddis, mosquito, adams, etc.. I agree, in the high lakes I’ve fished smaller is often better. I think some of it had to do with my casting technique, which make me work harder to get a nice soft landing to the fly… when I laid it down softly, the success ratio was definitely higher, though still not that high. Thanks for the suggestion… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For August, I’m hoping to put together a trip to fish the areas around Fordyce lake.. and this time, backpack required! Generally I find that if fish refuse in those high lakes, try going smaller like 18 or 20.  Most times for hungry wild trout you figure size 14 will do but for some reason those high country fish can get skittish. Mu

Response:

This was supossed to be a backpacking trip for seven… we all got packs, bear cannisters, portable stoves, lots of dried food, and a bota bag filled with wine.  Well, it didn’t turn out to be a backpacking trip, but it still was a good weekend. We headed to Leavitt Lake in California, off Highway 108 on the east side of the hill.  Our plan was to drive to Leavitt (need a 4wd vehicle to get there which my friend Jim provided), and then put the packs on and head up to one of the wilderness lakes in those parts, of which there are three in reasonable proximity (that is, a short enough hike for the nine year old that Jim brought along).  Well, once they realized that campfires were out of the picture for any of the wilderness lakes, it was me versus everyone else… I lost. Leavitt is a nice enough lake… 9k feet up, so not much tree cover, but picturesque in its own right.  It’s stocked with Rainbow trout, but evidently has a self sustaining population of brookies.  We were warned about the big mosquito population by the ranger, but it turned out NOT to be a problem. After setting up camp, we rigged the kids and Brent’s wife up with Power Bait, and headed the 100 feet to the lake.  Jim, Brent and I tied on a Caddis, and I hooked up pretty quick with a 4" brookie.  I thought that was a pretty good sign… at the time. Brent’s wife Amber hooked up pretty quickly with a nice rainbow, and soon the kids followed… but with the exception of the (now 2) little 4" brookies I caught, the flies were getting their butts kicked by the bait dunkers.  Thankfully, they brought in enough trout to fill up the fry pan, so we had a great dinner. Day 2 found us hiking up to Ski lake to try our hand at Golden Trout.  A group of flyfishermen passed us on the way up the trail and didn’t have much good to say about the fishing… skunked.  Well, the lake is pretty… she had a good personality, I guess. Well, pretty much the same story as Leavitt… bait 4, flies 0.  I tried everything in my fly box with no success.  I couldn’t tell what the trout were rising for, but it didn’t matter.  I did manage a strike on a mosquito, but missed the set, that’s it. We did notice the lightening off to the east after an hour or so of fishing, but everything seemed to be avoiding our little valley, and you know how those sierra storms are… most of the time they don’t amount to much.  Except this time.  Brent must have had some kind of premonition, because he announced it was time to go… I didn’t see the point as the other storms had passed us by, but good thing we followed his instincts, as lightening, rain, wind, and then the hail followed.. yea, hail.  Since it was beautiful when we left, nobody had anything but t-shirts and shorts, so the hail was quite.. er… entertaining.  The race back to camp was on. Well, remember back to the beginning… this was to be a backpacking trip.  Sometimes camping by a vehicle is a good thing, in an electrical storm, for example… I guess some things just work out. Back at Leavitt, post-storm, the little brookies (again, 4" tops) were still willing, but only for me it seemed… but the rainbows were more than happy to chomp on some power bait, so dinner again featured trout with the pasta. Day three was to be spent at Koenig lake, another short hike… yea, was.  On the way, from above, we hear calls for "Dad" and then calls for "help."  It turns out a 15 year old kid decided to take a break from fishing to climb the 1k foot ridge behind Leavitt Lake, and got himself stuck… couldn’t get higher or lower.  As much as I wanted to run by with my fingers in my ears saying "I can’t hear you, I can’t hear you" I knew we would end up involved in this, and sure enough we did.  Jim and Brent went up the hill to try and help the kid out of the situation, and I stayed below with the motorla FRS radio.  To make a long story a little shorter, an ex marine named Mike came out of nowhere and helped the kid out just before the hail and thunderstorm came, again, while the official Search and Rescue team of six marines were heading up the hill.   The marines turned back and left, but not before I got to check out the set of binoculars the leader had.  Auto focus, serious power, do you think they’d notice if they were missing??  Anyway, the end result was no side trip for the day, and lots of non fishing activities, including me driving the truck out to the road for cell phone reception to call in the problem to the rangers. Leavitt once again cooperated with some rainbows and tiny brookies once the excitement was over, so again we had fresh trout for dinner.  Jim and Brent were both fishless on the fly, though Brent did catch a couple on bait.  Jim wanted to be the purist so he kept plugging away at the flies with no luck. Final morning, heading out around noon, so there’s plenty of time for more fishing at Leavitt.  Same story, except Amber casually grabs Brent’s flyrod while he’s bait dunking, and after missing several strikes, connects with a nice 10" brookie.  She’d never flyfished before, yea, you know the story.  She caught the nicest golden, the nicest brookie, and had no trouble connecting with rainbows.  Maybe next time I’ll go with no rookies…  Jim had his chance to connect too, but missed the set on a couple of brookies… ended up getting skunked for the trip, he’ll get his next time. Over all, a great trip, but on the way back the highway parallels the middle fork of the Stanislas River… no time to stop, but I made a mental note, I’m definitely coming up there to fish the river.  Maybe next time… For August, I’m hoping to put together a trip to fish the areas around Fordyce lake.. and this time, backpack required! Thanks for reading…

Response:

Question:

 I was determained to nymph for a few hours  using all the valuable tips I had recieved at show. Going upstream with the sun at my back I used Wayno’s valuable crawling tactics–could not use Humphreys tuck casts upstream as it was mostly small  pods of water behind rocks. So I tried high sticking with a  strike indicator and caught several 10 to 12 inch  wild rainbows  that  were real active when hooked. I cannot understand  writers who suggest moving indicator up or down due to depth of water because in this type of water you would have to adjust every second cast.

That’s one of the reasons Humphrey’s teaches not to use an indicator  Wish I had seen Humphreys again – he’s a sparkplug.

Response:

Wasted a day at fly-fishing show in Charlotte last weekend.

        (amazing amount of information shoved into a small space, snipped) I drove five hours home to Wilmington wondering why he had locked the door to his car. Joe McIntosh

        what a fantastic trip report.  when i grow up, i want to be just like you, joe.         your friend up in the red clay country         wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

"-Indian Joe I drove five hours home to Wilmington wondering why he had locked the door to his car. Joe McIntosh

Well Joe, it’s an an old yankee habit. I remember my surprise in NC one day,when I returned to my van and found out I had left the door open! Not unlocked but open!  . . . nothing amiss. john . . . who has noticed a predilection for people to push their remote button until the horn beeps.

Response:

Wasted a day at fly-fishing show in Charlotte last weekend. Joe Humphres talk on nymph fishing had lots of films of Joe catching  fish in Penn many years and we were all requested to yell now when he sould set the hook!!That guy is as old as me, and his stories are  worn out. Then Casada spoke on fishing in N.C. mountains- stories about snowbird and Slickrock- later I ask him which way he went into Slickrock because his  belly  told me he couldn’t get back up Fat Gap. He allowed as he had not been out that way for a few years. Sunday I tried to fish the top part of Opie’s creek but the local police stopped me at lower bridge and said I would have to hike in. Some yankee from Long Island had parked his car last week at the trail hed, left a suicide note inside, locked the door and dissappeared. I hiked along way upstream, sun was out,water cold on feet and I caught only two small rainbows on dry flies. Think I was more concerned with hooking a body than setting the hook. Monday morning I stopped by Waldo"s shop and he  was so sick I did not want to hang around long enough to share whatever he had so I again headed out to Opie"s place.  I was determained to nymph for a few hours  using all the valuable tips I had recieved at show. Going upstream with the sun at my back I used Wayno’s valuable crawling tactics–could not use Humphreys tuck casts upstream as it was mostly small  pods of water behind rocks. So I tried high sticking with a  strike indicator and caught several 10 to 12 inch  wild rainbows  that  were real active when hooked. I cannot understand  writers who suggest moving indicator up or down due to depth of water because in this type of water you would have to adjust every second cast. Was really getting into all this when  the police arrived and ask me to leave the area—-the buzzards had not led them to that poor yankee’s body so they were going to try the "dogs". I drove five hours home to Wilmington wondering why he had locked the door to his car. Joe McIntosh

Response:

Smoking that shit from cabin one again John????       Handyman         Mike Handyman   Mike

Response:

Question:

It’s the newbies I’m concerned about. I’ll give you a piece of advice: don’t worry about the newbies. They are a dime a dozen.  Novices have died in the outdoors for thousands of years.   Well, it’s the newbie net.ers that I’m talking about, not newbies to the backcountry. Some of these newbies could have some valuable input if they’d stick around the group.

Too big a "could."  Anyone really knowledgeable doesn’t have to stay here. The majority of posters don’t think that they are newbies (they are).   When you *know it all*, you are dead. No more data processing.

Well it’s not quite like that.    "Like a chicken playing a card game". ???   Newbie net.ers cocking their heads and giving them cards a good smart look. Still, a chicken is a bird brain.   I think Sam got the visuals.

Oh! Yeah, last time I played poker with a chicken, I lost all my feathers. Hey, I thought when she lowered her head and did that one eyed blink that she was bluffing, I swear! Need more chlorine in the gene pool.

Chickens do what chickens do best.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s the newbies I’m concerned about. I’ll give you a piece of advice: don’t worry about the newbies. They are a dime a dozen.  Novices have died in the outdoors for thousands of years.    Well, it’s the newbie net.ers that I’m talking about, not newbies to the backcountry. Some of these newbies could have some valuable input if they’d stick around the group. The majority of posters don’t think that they are newbies (they are).    When you *know it all*, you are dead. No more data processing. I have this image of a newbie wandering into traffic on the Information Superhighway, blindfolded. Better than a physical superhighway.    "Like a chicken playing a card game". ???    Newbie net.ers cocking their heads and giving them cards a good smart look. Still, a chicken is a bird brain.    I think Sam got the visuals. Yeah, last time I played poker with a chicken, I lost all my feathers. Hey, I thought when she lowered her head and did that one eyed blink that she was bluffing, I swear! Need more chlorine in the gene pool.    Ed Huesers    http://www.grandshelters.com

More likely too deep a dive in the White Russian Sea, oh well, it happens…<B stoopid G Sam

Response:

It’s the newbies I’m concerned about. I’ll give you a piece of advice: don’t worry about the newbies. They are a dime a dozen.  Novices have died in the outdoors for thousands of years.

   Well, it’s the newbie net.ers that I’m talking about, not newbies to the backcountry. Some of these newbies could have some valuable input if they’d stick around the group. The majority of posters don’t think that they are newbies (they are).

   When you *know it all*, you are dead. No more data processing. I have this image of a newbie wandering into traffic on the Information Superhighway, blindfolded. Better than a physical superhighway.    "Like a chicken playing a card game". ???

   Newbie net.ers cocking their heads and giving them cards a good smart look. Still, a chicken is a bird brain.    I think Sam got the visuals. Yeah, last time I played poker with a chicken, I lost all my feathers. Hey, I thought when she lowered her head and did that one eyed blink that she was bluffing, I swear! Need more chlorine in the gene pool.

   Ed Huesers    http://www.grandshelters.com

Response:

It’s the newbies I’m concerned about.

I’ll give you a piece of advice: don’t worry about the newbies. They are a dime a dozen.  Novices have died in the outdoors for thousands of years.  The majority of posters don’t think that they are newbies (they are). I have this image of a newbie wandering into traffic on the Information Superhighway, blindfolded.

Better than a physical superhighway.    "Like a chicken playing a card game".

??? Yeah, last time I played poker with a chicken, I lost all my feathers. Hey, I thought when she lowered her head and did that one eyed blink that she was bluffing, I swear!

Need more chlorine in the gene pool.

Response:

It’s the newbies I’m concerned about. I have this image of a newbie wandering into traffic on the Information Superhighway, blindfolded.

   "Like a chicken playing a card game".    Ed Huesers

Response:

It’s the newbies I’m concerned about. I have this image of a newbie wandering into traffic on the Information Superhighway, blindfolded.    "Like a chicken playing a card game".    Ed Huesers

Yeah, last time I played poker with a chicken, I lost all my feathers. Hey, I thought when she lowered her head and did that one eyed blink that she was bluffing, I swear! Sam

Response:

DsrtTravlr – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Valley, Sunnyside, Baker Reservoir, Gunlock, Kane Springs Wash, Rainbow Canyon, Beaver Dam State Park, Desert National Wildlife Refuge, Bird Springs Range, Monitor Valley, West Grand Canyon, Gold Strike Hot Springs, Gold Butte, Delmar Playas, Tikapoo Peak and Area 51, Sharktooth Hill, Christmas Tree Pass, Piute Springs, Cold Creek, Death Valley, Lovell Canyon, Hurricane Cliffs, Virgin Canyon, Tassi Ranch, Aquarius Plateau, Box Death Hollow Wilderness Area, Kaibab Plateau, Kolob Reservoir, River Mountain Trail, <snip, snip, snip. Need I go on?  You could go to a different place every weekend for five years and not hit the same place twice. Go to Mercury Blueprint at Sahara and Highland and get the $15 DOT Nevada State Book of Maps.  It will show you most secondary roads in Nevada.  Join an outdoors group, or hook up with some people who go out, or just get off the couch and go explore.  Nevada has the highest percentage of federal land in the continental US, and there are few fences. Of course, you might wait until the weather cools off.  And then do these things…… take plenty of water, some extra food, tools and repair items and enough warm gear.  Tell someone where you are going, and when you will be back. Leave a map with them.  Nevada has incredible search and rescue, and it is a simple matter if they know where you will be.  If something happens, just stay with your vehicle, and wait for help.  Almost everyone who has died in the desert has tried to walk out instead of staying with the car.  Learn about desert critters, plants, and flash floods….. one of which we had

yesterday. Steve, I sent a copy of this to my neice who is moving to LV.  Thanks, it’s a good long list and I especially wanted her (family) to read the extra precautionary notes you included.  Nobody understands the desert until they have lived it for awhile and finally when they think they do it will surprise them… Bill

Response:

  I use netscape which does have the capability but I choose to use my brain to filter.   It’s the newbies I’m concerned about.

I have this image of a newbie wandering into traffic on the Information Superhighway, blindfolded. Happy trails, Gary "In three words I can sum up everything I’ve learned about life: it goes on." -Robert Frost- Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

Response:

Flood the group with ON-topic posts.

   Oh, I try. I even resort to jokes once in a while. Ignore the off topic stuff. Some posters are difficult because they also post useful things. Others can be entirely ignored.

   Ack. Think of this as incentive to get a newsreader with filtering.

   I use netscape which does have the capability but I choose to use my brain to filter.    It’s the newbies I’m concerned about.    Ed Huesers

Response:

You are kidding, right?  I grew up in Las Vegas, and there are a zillion places within the three to five hours you mention where you can go and not hardly see another human.   You say you are "told" that some places are overrun with tourists.  Don’t believe everything you are told.  While it is entirely true SOME TIMES IN THE YEAR, even those places have their seasons, and going there the other times of the year is very uncrowded.  There are many many places around here where one can go camping out in the boonies on BLM land and have peace and privacy.  Just look around.   Valley, Sunnyside, Baker Reservoir, Gunlock, Kane Springs Wash, Rainbow Canyon, Beaver Dam State Park, Desert National Wildlife Refuge, Bird Springs Range, Monitor Valley, West Grand Canyon, Gold Strike Hot Springs, Gold Butte, Delmar Playas, Tikapoo Peak and Area 51, Sharktooth Hill, Christmas Tree Pass, Piute Springs, Cold Creek, Death Valley, Lovell Canyon, Hurricane Cliffs, Virgin Canyon, Tassi Ranch, Aquarius Plateau, Box Death Hollow Wilderness Area, Kaibab Plateau, Kolob Reservoir, River Mountain Trail, <snip, snip, snip. Need I go on?  You could go to a different place every weekend for five years and not hit the same place twice. Go to Mercury Blueprint at Sahara and Highland and get the $15 DOT Nevada State Book of Maps.  It will show you most secondary roads in Nevada.  Join an outdoors group, or hook up with some people who go out, or just get off the couch and go explore.  Nevada has the highest percentage of federal land in the continental US, and there are few fences.   Of course, you might wait until the weather cools off.  And then do these things…… take plenty of water, some extra food, tools and repair items and enough warm gear.  Tell someone where you are going, and when you will be back. Leave a map with them.  Nevada has incredible search and rescue, and it is a simple matter if they know where you will be.  If something happens, just stay with your vehicle, and wait for help.  Almost everyone who has died in the desert has tried to walk out instead of staying with the car.  Learn about desert critters, plants, and flash floods….. one of which we had yesterday. You can e mail me if you need any particulars.  And anyone else who reads this.  The area around here is awesome, and most people don’t even know it is there. I like it like that. Steve Pat O’Connell writes: We just moved to the Las Vegas area, though we don’t have a "permanent" home just yet–still house hunting. Summer is obviously not a good time to be outdoors here, unless we head for Mt. Charleston. What else is within a short (say within 3 to 5 hours) drive of here that’s worth visiting and hiking in summer? Zion, Bryce Canyon, etc. are that close, but I’m told are overrun with tourists. — Pat O’Connell Take nothing but pictures, Leave nothing but footprints, Kill nothing but vandals…

               ~ Illegitimi Non Carborundum ~

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – then suddenly we have collectivist look-alikes invading from one side while the jackbooted sound-alikes push in from the opposite side.  There’s a movie locked up inside this scenario Dodo’s?   If you mean extinct, yes.   I can make an educated guess and say that the readership of the group is only 20% of what it was.   Ed Huesers Flood the group with ON-topic posts. Ignore the off topic stuff. Some posters are difficult because they also post useful things. Others can be entirely ignored. Think of this as incentive to get a newsreader with filtering.

Here’s the first shot: We just moved to the Las Vegas area, though we don’t have a "permanent" home just yet–still house hunting. Summer is obviously not a good time to be outdoors here, unless we head for Mt. Charleston. What else is within a short (say within 3 to 5 hours) drive of here that’s worth visiting and hiking in summer? Zion, Bryce Canyon, etc. are that close, but I’m told are overrun with tourists. — Pat O’Connell Take nothing but pictures, Leave nothing but footprints, Kill nothing but vandals…

Response:

: The newsgroup rec.outdoors.national-parks was the same way until quite : recently. The posts were at least 75% political in nature. After looking at the subject list of r.o.n-p again (first time I’ve read it for a while) it seems to be back to its old self  unfortunately. There should be an alt.politics.environment newsgroup we could banish these people to, if there’s not already.

The group is named talk.environment. It is useful to know the hierarchy. It could have been talk.politics.environment. That’s not the issue.  As I informed Moore who proposed sci.environnment s.e. should be moderated and as he admitted it was an "I told you so." Can’t banish people. Nothing wrong with politics. And there’s no reason you can’t send followups there if you know how.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – then suddenly we have collectivist look-alikes invading from one side while the jackbooted sound-alikes push in from the opposite side.  There’s a movie locked up inside this scenario    "Birds Of A Feather". Lee wrote Maybe more like Hitchcock’s "The Birds"…: ) Dodo’s?    If you mean extinct, yes.    I can make an educated guess and say that the readership of the group is only 20% of what it was.    Ed Huesers

Yeah, but Ed, we’re the dedicated 20%. Survive we will. Sam Benson

Response:

then suddenly we have collectivist look-alikes invading from one side while the jackbooted sound-alikes push in from the opposite side.  There’s a movie locked up inside this scenario Dodo’s?   If you mean extinct, yes.   I can make an educated guess and say that the readership of the group is only 20% of what it was.   Ed Huesers

Flood the group with ON-topic posts. Ignore the off topic stuff. Some posters are difficult because they also post useful things. Others can be entirely ignored. Think of this as incentive to get a newsreader with filtering. Happy trails, Gary "In three words I can sum up everything I’ve learned about life: it goes on." -Robert Frost- Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

Response:

I can make an educated guess and say that the readership of the group is only 20% of what it was. I don’t know about number of readers but my reading is about 20% of what it was.

   Well, I’m basing it on our web page counter.    You guys, the core of the group, aren’t going to check our site because you’ve probably been there enough already. The lurkers are also likely to have the same situation.    It’s the newbies that’ll check it and some of them are the core group of tomorrow. All I see is just another swing of the pendulum.  It’s been both better and worse in the past.

   Yeah, I can try and believe in that but this pendulum arm must be a long one. I just wait until it passes.

   Well, it’s a long wait. I was waiting for the election to get over with all last summer. The thing about emotionally laden postings is that it’s hard to maintain righteous fervor over an extended period [with one notable exception] so they tend to flame for months then vanish.

   "Exception" noted and I have to chuckle as it seems that even he has backed off due to his posts getting lost in the pile.  It’s just as bad in other groups, right now others I’m reading are civil but that wasn’t the case last year.

   Well, I suppose it’s the fact that I used to participate in r.o.n-p. until about 2 years ago and the group was doing great. Then along they came and destroyed the group.    Now, after destroying the group, they’ve moved over here.    Ed Huesers

Response:

[snip]   If you mean extinct, yes.   I can make an educated guess and say that the readership of the group is only 20% of what it was.   Ed Huesers

I don’t know about number of readers but my reading is about 20% of what it was.  All I see is just another swing of the pendulum.  It’s been both better and worse in the past.  I just wait until it passes. The thing about emotionally laden postings is that it’s hard to maintain righteous fervor over an extended period [with one notable exception] so they tend to flame for months then vanish.   It’s just as bad in other groups, right now others I’m reading are civil but that wasn’t the case last year.

Response:

: The newsgroup rec.outdoors.national-parks was the same way until quite : recently. The posts were at least 75% political in nature. After looking at the subject list of r.o.n-p again (first time I’ve read it for a while) it seems to be back to its old self  unfortunately. There should be an alt.politics.environment newsgroup we could banish these people to, if there’s not already. Michael

Response:

: Yeah, and falling fast probably.  It really isn’t the same group it was. : Look at groups.google.com and see what the topics were back in the : 1990’s : : Only about half of the posts are related to the backcountry.  Now this : is an unmoderated group. ALL things are on topic. But whet drew me (and : I suspect most) others to this group was the work backcountry. I do not : subscribe to any political groups, because I’m not interested in : caricatured liberal and conservative attacking each other. The newsgroup rec.outdoors.national-parks was the same way until quite recently. The posts were at least 75% political in nature. Some of the group members got fed up and complained to the offending persons’ ISPs for violating the newsgroup charter and they were forced to stop posting there. I’ve heard that’s what happened anyway. Most of those posts were being cross-posted here, and many of the political posts here are from the same people that posted there. The concentration here has definitely increased since r.o.n-p was "clensed". Maybe we need a similar rebellion here? Michael — Michael Caver Photography http://photos.mcaver.com/

Response:

 I can make an educated guess and say that the readership of the group is only 20% of what it was.

Yeah, and falling fast probably.  It really isn’t the same group it was. Look at groups.google.com and see what the topics were back in the 1990’s As I wrote that I wondered myself. Here are the titles from a randomly selected day in Jult  1998: 06 Jul 1998    Where to buy white kerosene in the US?

Question:

Tenterden Trout Waters is hosting the Troutmaster 2000 fly fishing competition on Wednesday 10th May.

This is OBVIOUSLY incorrect, as ALL known "Troutmasters" will be down in North Carolina on the 10th… /daytripper (Thought you could fool us, eh?)

Response:

This is OBVIOUSLY incorrect, as ALL known "Troutmasters" will be down in North Carolina on the 10th… /daytripper (Thought you could fool us, eh?)

EXXXCCCCUUUUSE ME!  Some of us have been left behind. Sorry for the rude interrruption by that Trip person, now what were you saying, rodh1 old boy?  Now that all of the scallywags, scoundrels, reprobates, and other assorted riff-raff have transported themselves to NC, the rest of us can conduct a refined, elegant, tasteful, and expert Troutmasters competition. Hey Trip, TTHHUUFFT! 3pm looks good on ya,  I hear Louie’s planning to load up on some of that famous chilli for lunch.  Enjoy the Audi ambiance. Peter

Response:

This is OBVIOUSLY incorrect, as ALL known "Troutmasters" will be down in North Carolina on the 10th… /daytripper (Thought you could fool us, eh?) EXXXCCCCUUUUSE ME!  Some of us have been left behind.

Whoops! OK – all but ONE Troutmaster then ;^) Sorry for the rude interrruption by that Trip person, now what were you saying, rodh1 old boy?  Now that all of the scallywags, scoundrels, reprobates, and other assorted riff-raff have transported themselves to NC, the rest of us can conduct a refined, elegant, tasteful, and expert Troutmasters competition. Hey Trip, TTHHUUFFT! 3pm looks good on ya,  I hear Louie’s planning to load up on some of that famous chilli for lunch.  Enjoy the Audi ambiance.

NO! GOD NOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo! I’m packing ear plugs ‘cuz of his taste in music. Better bring some clothes pins, too, I reckon… /daytripper (Dooooooooomed! ;^)

Response:

Anyone interested in the original Troutmaster 99 video featuring the music of Esquivel, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Garth Brooks, Patrick O’hearn, Jean Luc Ponty, Rush and many more including yours truly should drop our friend tbone a line for a review or send an e-mail for ordering information.  This is not SPAM. I promise. JE * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

Response:

Tenterden Trout Waters is hosting the Troutmaster 2000 fly fishing competition on Wednesday 10th May.

Rodh1, Just read this Perhaps a decent "Back" cast will reach the fish. — Bill http://www.graigroad.demon.co.uk

Response:

Tenterden Trout Waters is hosting the Troutmaster 2000 fly fishing competition on Wednesday 10th May. Check the web site for details, or contact Barry Evans with your questions. (01580) 763201 http://www.trout-waters.co.uk Check site for latest fishing reports, online catch book, local interest and even recipes! Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

I waited until the results were in and the followup comment was made about wets and streamers to submit these… Picket Pin Trout Fin Parmachene Belle Supervisor Mickey Finn Black Nosed Dace Spruce Fly Dark Montreal Alexandra I have to agree with many of the comments that Brook Trout aren’t the most discerning of fish, but they’re fun to catch.  We always carried simple flies like Grey Hackle Yellow and Royal Coachman dries and Grey Hackle Peacock and Pass Lake wets for them also, as they seem to like the flies with red in tham and with a definite contrast of wing to body colors. Larry #:)#

Response:

I love olive elk hair caddis, bead head prince nymph, Adams mosquito – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs—your pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my results! Thank you all,, Jamie

Response:

: My vote is for the red tailed version of the Royal Coachman, followed by : the Silver Doctor, and female Black Gnat, and Grizzley King. : — : I’m a Canadian eh!                                              Steve. I agree with the Royal Coachman and Silver Doctor, two of the all time best classics. Don’t forget the Dark Montreal! V.B. —

Response:

We do a lot of dry fly fishing in the Sierras for brookies, and the saying goes "anything with red". My favorite for brookies, and for any fish in the fall, is a Royal Coachman parachute in size 14.  I use various colors for the post so that I can pick the best one to see that day. Jack Kowalski

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs—your pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my results! Thank you all,, Jamie Local from down Walt’s way put me on Royal Humpies for Blue Ridge Brookies – never found anything to top it yet. Didn’t know anyone successfully used anything other than a RH until you started this thread. Maybe posters could qualify their choices by giving the general area where they use their flies. Kiyu

Response:

I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs—your pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my results! Thank you all,, Jamie

Local from down Walt’s way put me on Royal Humpies for Blue Ridge Brookies – never found anything to top it yet. Didn’t know anyone successfully used anything other than a RH until you started this thread. Maybe posters could qualify their choices by giving the general area where they use their flies. Kiyu

Response:

I don’t have 12 flies but here are my favorites:     – renegade #14-#8     – elk hair caddis     – bead-head prince nymph     – green/brown wooly worm     – black rubber legs Eric

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs—your pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my results! Thank you all,, Jamie

Response:

My vote is for the red tailed version of the Royal Coachman, followed by the Silver Doctor, and female Black Gnat, and Grizzley King.

: #18 Black Gnat

: I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best : for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished : trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take : your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs—your : pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my results! : : Thank you all,, Jamie — I’m a Canadian eh!                                              Steve. The FAQ for rec.crafts.metalworking is at: http://w3.uwyo.edu/~metal The metalworking drop box  is at           http://www.metalworking.com                                     or     http://208.213.200.132 Visit my website at: http://www.victoria.tc.ca/~ud233/homepage.htm

Response:

I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs— your pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my

results! 1. Royal Humpy sizes 10-16 2. Parachute Adams sizes 14-18 3. Roberts Drake sizes 8-12 4. Royal Wulff sizes 12-18 5. Elk Hair Caddis sizes 14-20 6. Grizzly Wulff sizes 10-14 7. Blue Winged Olive sizes 16-20 8. Parachute Sulphur sizes 14-18 9. Madam X sizes 10-12 10. Letort Cricket 8-12 11. Any soft hackled wet fly 14-16 12. And during the right time of year, this baby goes to #1 Hex Spinner size 2-6 — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas Before you buy.

Response:

#18 Black Gnat – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs—your pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my results! Thank you all,, Jamie

Response:

Favourite dries: Stimulator, Royal Wulff, any parachute Favourite Midge (Dry): Cluster midge, Blue Olive Favourite Nymph: Hare’s ear,bead head caddis, metallic caddis Regards from Montreal and have fun John Brkich

Response:

I support the the parachute also. Do not know why I over looked that fly. — Toad

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Favourite dries: Stimulator, Royal Wulff, any parachute Favourite Midge (Dry): Cluster midge, Blue Olive Favourite Nymph: Hare’s ear,bead head caddis, metallic caddis Regards from Montreal and have fun John Brkich

Response:

I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished

 <snipped Since learning about Andy Kim Yong Special’s it’s hard to use anything else.  All our in the #20-#24 size. 1. Yong (Brown, Blue, Cream, Yellow) 2. Yong JR (Green, Blue) 3. Yong Flasher (Brown, Blue, Cream, Yellow) 5. Yong Blonde 6. Yong Dry (Midge and Baetis) Happy Trick or Trout Season. bc.

Response:

I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs—your pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my results! Thank you all,, Jamie

        i think this is where i came in. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

a dozen yellow humpies. I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs—your pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my results! Thank you all,, Jamie

– Ezflyfish.com http://www.ezflyfish.com BRBG http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

Response:

Adams, Sulfur, Caddis, Caddis emerger, Drakes, Hair’s ear, Pheasant tail, and small woolybuger  streamers. All these patterns in different sizes. All general suggestions. What is living in the stream is usually the best bet.  Usually, one of the above will resemble an indigenous insect close enough to fool a fish. Tight lines — Toad

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs—your pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my results! Thank you all,, Jamie

Response:

I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs—your pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my results! Thank you all,, Jamie

Response:

Question:

Hello folks, Spring did not come soon enough…our 8 month winter here in Northern Vermont appears to be over.  The majority of spring run-off is complete.  Here are the conditions for the Lamoille and Winooski Watersheds in the Greater Burlington and Stowe areas: Water temps are in the low 50’s and clarity remains that of a near empty coffee cup.  Do not fear though…bugs have been seen on the banks.  Early black and brown stoneflies and blue quills (para’ adoptiva for you science buffs) have shown up in small numbers.  This being said blue wing olives are soon to follow.  Little black caddis are around in some areas.  River levels are low for the spring but still high nonetheless.  We have received some rain and more is expected.  If you are making travel plans to fish hold off until the middle of May.  With the current weather patterns there is sure to be some great surface action by then.  Blame it on El Nino as my friend Davey Davis aka "Brown Trout" would say. Drop us a line if you have any questions. Happy Fishing James Ehlers Uncle Jammer’s Guide Service 1997 Guide of the Year Vermont Fly Fishing, Hunting, River and Woodland Outings http://pobox.com/~uncle

Response:

Thanks for the update. Just out of interest, are any of the ski resorts still open? I know some of them can go through May. Gary

Hello folks, Spring did not come soon enough…our 8 month winter here in Northern Vermont appears to be over.  The majority of spring run-off is complete.  Here are

the <SNIP

Response:

Spring did not come soon enough…our 8 month winter here in Northern Vermont appears to be over.  The majority of spring run-off is complete.  Here are the conditions for the Lamoille and Winooski Watersheds in the Greater Burlington and Stowe areas: Water temps are in the low 50’s and clarity remains that of a near empty coffee cup.  Do not fear though…bugs have been seen on the banks.  Early black and

Thanks for information.  How much earlier is this season than last? (E.g. northern Adirondack waters seem never to reach 50 before May, and some years not before May 20 approx.) — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Response:

Thanks for information.  How much earlier is this season than last? (E.g. northern Adirondack waters seem never to reach 50 before May, and some years not before May 20 approx.)

Donald, You are welcome.  Quite a bit – some 3 weeks.  Let me know if you ever have any other questions.   Best regards, James Ehlers Uncle Jammer’s Guide Service 1997 Guide of the Year Vermont Fly Fishing, Hunting, River and Woodland Outings http://pobox.com/~uncle

Response:

Question:

Hi.  I’m fairly new to southern Erie County, NY.  I’ve heard that there is nice salmon fishing in Eighteen Mile Creek in the fall, and I’d like to prepare.  Is anyone out here familiar with this water?  I am interested in when, where, and how (with what).  I am fairly familiar with it from Lake Erie to the big fork.  Would really appreciate any advice or even a partner.  (have chests wades and a small 4wd)  Could do either fly/spin/livebait).  Thanks again for any help.                                         Michael Kankiewicz                                         Business / Government Documents                                         Lockwood Memorial Library                                         University at Buffalo

Response:

Hi Mike, I take it you attend U.B since your sending this from the grad library . 18 mile is nit really a good chinook salmon tributary. actually the chinook salmon  population is fairly limited in all of lake erie. You will some coho salmon in 18 and other lake erie tributaries but most of all you will find steelhead. The primary tackle on 18 is egg sacks for steelhead,power bait. I float fish for steelhead with a 13 ft rod and a centerpin float reel as they do in canada. i also fly fish . if you fly fish on 18 i suggest small flies size 8 thru 10 egg sucking leaches,  size 8 glow bugs. at time the current can be slow esp in winter and water gin clear you may want to use a small float for strike indicator.Since your new to the area i suggest you go to the book store to pick up the sanders guide -which will give you all the spots in the area. If your still interest in chinook try oak orachard creek in orleans county,18 mile creek in niagara county or the lower niagara itself–lake ontario has larger population of chinooks-which proably will show up by end of september.If you dont mind taking a long ride say for a weekend there is the salmon river north of syracuse–you proably already know about that RIVERS REPUTATION AS WORLD CLASS. I hope this helps e mail if you have more questions.

Response:

Question:

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Response:

Question:

On the stream: * What is your normal procedure once you hit the stream? * How long does it take you to get a fly on the water? (ignoring the amount   of time you take to study the water) Leaders: * Do you usually store a leader on your reel with the line? * With knotless leaders, is the the tippet considered part of the leader?   (I presume that it is but have never seen it stated.) * If so, (or with finished knotted leaders) how many flies will you   change (how many inches of tippet clipped) before you add more tippet? Casting: * When is the "proper" time to let line out when false casting (to extend   the line to the distance you wish to cast to)?  I do it instinctively now   but none of the books I’ve read, nor the few videos I’ve watched, have   brought up the subject at all.   _Rich_

Response:

Good questions. I generally hike into the stream wiht my rod assebeled but not strung. Streamside, this forces me to go slow and take some time to watch the water.  My rod/reel choice is often dictated by the wind conditions. Once, I determine what fly to fish, I’ll string the rod, replace the tippet (I use Braided Leaders), tie on a start.  My braided leaders generally stay on the reel. The process takes about 10 minutes if I go slowly enough. My tippets for dry fly action is generally 5x 30" to 36" long, 24" of 5x for wets,  and 18" of 4 or 3x for streamers.  I get good turnover with these legnths on Orvis braided 5x or 6x leaders of 9 or 12 ft. I’ll fish a tippet down to about half of the original legnth if I can get the drift I need. What’s proper is probably what works.  I feed line for an initial cast on both the backcast and forward false casts, hopefully leaving enough line to shoot if I’m fishing more than 40 feet away. I’m looking forward to other responses. jg

Response:

On the stream: * What is your normal procedure once you hit the stream? * How long does it take you to get a fly on the water? (ignoring the amount   of time you take to study the water)

My procedure depends somewhat on the type of water.  For Spring Creeks / Mountain Streams (my favorite) I will string up at the car and then take my time hiking to the stream when I am within 50 yards or so.  As a rule I try never to step in the water if at all possible and move as silently in the shadows as possible.  Wild Trout require this stealth.  If there are few trees or other cover, then I will crawl.  Once at the water, I almost always look for opportunities before casting.  Exceptions would be when I know that I will be fishing blind with nymphs/streamers or when the water is extremely off color. Leaders: * Do you usually store a leader on your reel with the line?  

I generally roll the leader/tippet right around the reel in as large a loop as possible.  I’ve tried leader wallets, etc.  and I think they’re too much hassle.  I tend to hit at least a bass impoundment 3 to 4 times per week and like to whip out the old 7 wt quickly and not have to unravel my leader.  Also, if you’re fishing for bass/saltwater species etc., then you’ll be using 2x-0x leaders/tippet and it takes punishment really well.  Smaller leader requires more care.  I do cover up to protect from sunlight with a neoprene cover. * With knotless leaders, is the the tippet considered part of the leader?  Yes.  The latter 2 ft or so is the tippet. * If so, (or with finished knotted leaders) how many flies will you   change (how many inches of tippet clipped) before you add more tippet?

I will add more tippet material after about 18 in (of 24 in) is used up.  This is really loose though.  If the quarry is not leader shy…then I’ll wait longer.  If you wait too long to add the proper tippet, however, then you won’t match up well with the leader material and the fly won’t turn over smoothly.   Casting: * When is the "proper" time to let line out when false casting (to extend   the line to the distance you wish to cast to)?  I do it instinctively now   but none of the books I’ve read, nor the few videos I’ve watched, have   brought up the subject at all.

If false casting is REALLY required then get the line out any way you feel comfortable with.  Forward or backward both is my preference, but I prefer shooting forward. K – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response: